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Ziggy
06-10-2008, 12:22 PM
KRIEGER: Shanahan approach goes back to future
By Dave Krieger, Rocky Mountain News (Contact)
Monday, June 9, 2008

David Zalubowski © Associated Press

Receiver Keary Colbert was compared "to the Rod Smiths of the world" by Broncos coach Mike Shanahan. When Mike Shanahan took over as coach of the Broncos in 1995, he found a pair of high-maintenance thoroughbreds at wide receiver.

In theory, Anthony Miller and Mike Pritchard were perfectly suited to stretch the field and exploit the howitzer John Elway disguised as a right arm. In practice, not so much.

Two years later, both the former first-round draft choices were gone. In their places, Shanahan installed a pair of no-names.

Rod Smith was an undrafted free agent playing on the Broncos practice squad. Ed McCaffrey was on his third team in five years.

The no-name approach worked out pretty well, anchoring back-to-back Super Bowl champions.

So when you watch Shanahan jettison Javon Walker, a high-maintenance thoroughbred, and bring in an underwhelming cast of candidates to replace him, you're watching him try to repeat a maneuver that worked the first time around.

In fact, he acknowledged as much last week, calling it "a good comparison."

"You want guys that want to play football and are going to give you everything they got," he said. "There's guys out there like Champ Bailey, who's very talented and has great character, that works his rear end off on every play and is a great inspiration to a lot of players. John Lynch, the same way. I can name a number of other players as well.

"And then there are some guys that get a little security and they're not the guys you want on your football team."

Count that last remark as the closest Shanahan will come to publicly expressing disillusionment with some of the big names he has brought in lately.

The question remains whether Keary Colbert, he of the $2.5 million signing bonus, has what it takes to fill Smith's or McCaffrey's shoes. Shanahan also signed veterans Darrell Jackson and Samie Parker, but they are who they are. It is Colbert from whom Shanahan hopes to coax an upside Carolina failed to find in his first four seasons.

Colbert's numbers basically went in the wrong direction after his rookie year, going from 47 catches to 25 to five to 32 last season.

"He was in an offense that didn't have a lot of success throwing the ball, but we believe he's got the ability, much like Rod Smith, to do a number of things for our offense and do it well," Shanahan said. "He blocks well, he catches well, really an experienced guy that's exceptionally bright.

"Same thing with Darrell Jackson, a guy that has played in the National Football League, so we've got some experience there as well."

The knock on both is they don't catch the ball enough. I'm not a fantasy player, but I'm told they both rank near the bottom of something called "catch percentage," pulling in fewer than 50 percent of the balls thrown their way.

Shanahan points out the Panthers brought in Keyshawn Johnson to play opposite Steve Smith in 2006, the year Colbert started just three games and caught only five passes.

"He got a little hurt, got a little injury, caught a few passes that one year," Shanahan said by way of explanation. "He's a guy you want on your football team."

These would sound like excuses if it weren't for the transition a little more than a decade ago that worked out so well.

McCaffrey's numbers in his first four seasons were pretty close to Colbert's. He caught 16, 49 and 27 balls for the Giants, then 11 for San Francisco while Shanahan was offensive coordinator there.

The Niners had receivers named Jerry Rice, John Taylor and Brent Jones that year. Shanahan brought McCaffrey to Denver based on what he saw in practice.

The signing bonus suggests he is making a similar bet on Colbert. He cannot seem to resist comparing him to Smith.

"He's a guy that's very similar to the Rod Smiths of the world - a hard worker, works his rear end off on every play," Shanahan said after watching him in the team's quarterback camp.

"You take a look at somebody's offense, you take a look at their quarterback, their scheme. It doesn't always have to do with the individual."

As you know if you've followed the Broncos since Shanahan's arrival, he is prone to falling in love with new acquisitions. But this year's gambles are a little different.

Over the last couple of years, he has fallen in love with talent, believing a star or two could put the Broncos over the top. In the cases of Walker and Travis Henry in particular, this pursuit backfired, in much the way it backfired on him previously with Dale Carter, Daryl Gardener and Maurice Clarett.

So this year he has gone back to the future, mining for unpolished gems to fill important roles, just as Smith and McCaffrey did in the '90s.

Colbert is not the only one who falls into this category. So does Niko Koutouvides, the Seattle backup signed to play middle linebacker.

For Shanahan, the pendulum has swung from blue chip back to blue collar. He can only hope it works out as well as it did the first time.



I thought this was a great article outlining what many on this forum have discussed concerning Shanahan's change of philosiphy on free agents this year.

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 12:58 PM
lets hope it works.. this caught my EYE



"There's guys out there like Champ Bailey, who's very talented and has great character, that works his rear end off on every play and is a great inspiration to a lot of players. John Lynch, the same way. I can name a number of other players as well.

"And then there are some guys that get a little security and they're not the guys you want on your football team."

Count that last remark as the closest Shanahan will come to publicly expressing disillusionment with some of the big names he has brought in lately.
********
As you know if you've followed the Broncos since Shanahan's arrival,he is prone to falling in love with new acquisitions. But this year's gambles are a little different.

Over the last couple of years, he has fallen in love with talent, believing a star or two could put the Broncos over the top. In the cases of Walker and Travis Henry in particular, this pursuit backfired, in much the way it backfired on him previously with Dale Carter, Daryl Gardener and Maurice Clarett.



Lets hope he has seen the light and has indeed changes his tiger stripes..

BroncoJoe
06-10-2008, 01:00 PM
Seems like he's definitely getting better advice. Whether it's from Bowlen or the Goodmans, something has changed.

Maybe the problem was Ted... :confused:

tubby
06-10-2008, 01:05 PM
Seems like he's definitely getting better advise. Whether it's from Bowlen or the Goodmans, something has changed.

Maybe the problem was Ted... :confused:

I believe that is a reason Ted is unemployed. :coffee:

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 01:14 PM
Seems like he's definitely getting better advise. Whether it's from Bowlen or the Goodmans, something has changed.

Maybe the problem was Ted... :confused:

You give Ted much to much credit for something he had almost no control or final say in..

I think it is mikey really knowing what needed to be done with Pat holding the harness, making sure that he stays within his clearly defined guideline..


Ted was never a GM although he got to act like one he learned alot setting at the right hand of Denver's God. (forgive me Top on this term)

tubby
06-10-2008, 01:18 PM
You give Ted much to much credit for something he had almost no control or final say in..



The Javon Walker trade was Ted's idea.

Dortoh
06-10-2008, 01:20 PM
"The knock on both is they don't catch the ball enough. I'm not a fantasy player, but I'm told they both rank near the bottom of something called "catch percentage," pulling in fewer than 50 percent of the balls thrown their way."

I know Jackson was knocked for this earlier in his career but I think hes upped his game in this area. He will battle kerry for the #2 spot mark it down. Either way it will create some competition in camp and thats never a bad thing.

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 01:21 PM
The Javon Walker trade was Ted's idea.

HMMMMM I think mikey signed off on it.. It was just Ted that made it..

Had Jwalk not been hurt it would have probably been a good deal long term..

But then again almost ALL WR's are flakes, must be genetic..

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 01:23 PM
"The knock on both is they don't catch the ball enough. I'm not a fantasy player, but I'm told they both rank near the bottom of something called "catch percentage," pulling in fewer than 50 percent of the balls thrown their way."

I know Jackson was knocked for this earlier in his career but I think hes upped his game in this area. He will battle kerry for the #2 spot mark it down. Either way it will create some competition in camp and thats never a bad thing.


he had a real problem up in SEA but pretty sure he had at least one really great year up there also..

There was mixed reviews on him leaving to go to SFO..

BroncoJoe
06-10-2008, 01:25 PM
You give Ted much to much credit for something he had almost no control or final say in..

I think it is mikey really knowing what needed to be done with Pat holding the harness, making sure that he stays within his clearly defined guideline..


Ted was never a GM although he got to act like one he learned alot setting at the right hand of Denver's God. (forgive me Top on this term)

That's why I used the term "advice". I know Shanahan has final say, but he receives advice from his people, and I would imagine makes decisions based on that advice.

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 01:36 PM
That's why I used the term "advice". I know Shanahan has final say, but he receives advice from his people, and I would imagine makes decisions based on that advice.

Knowing what I know about mikey I'd say he listens to them and makes up his mind based on HIS personal knowledge..

That certainly had to be true with some of the acquisitions that we have had in the past.. the original comment about mikey falling in love with players certainly rang a bell when I read it..

I'll bet that Ted brought a lot of deals to the table, only to have mikey veto it.. Based on mikeys judgment, most of the folks that leave DEN are not real happy campers almost all of them referring to him as that little man...

I suspect where there is smoke there is also some fire..

BroncoJoe
06-10-2008, 01:48 PM
... most of the folks that leave DEN are not real happy campers almost all of them referring to him as that little man...

That could be taken both ways - Sundquist loved them, Mike didn't and let them go.

G_Money
06-10-2008, 01:54 PM
We fired Ted before the draft, Jr. Like, right before. In order for that to happen - and risk jeopardizing whatever secrecy our war room had - there was a BIG issue between Ted and Mike.

I'm not currently unhappy with how our draft room sans Ted operated to fill some of the major gaps on our team. They definitely went for more blue-collar, more-accountable players who still had loads of talent.

We'll see where it ranks in terms of the decade's drafts in a few years, but if Ted was giving Mike bad advice then he needed to go, and if he couldn't talk Mike out of bad ideas, he also needed to go.

I don't care if it's the Goodmans, Pat, or Shanny himself who are turning over new leaves and getting back to putting together a football team instead of a high-priced primadonna squad.

Any of them separately or all together are fine with me, as long as we stop with the Maurice Clarett style projects (and based on Ted's obnoxious and condescending defense of that draft pick I have to think he was for it).

I wanted Ted to be gone so we could tell who the problem was with. Even if he just amplified Mike's tendencies toward mistakes we needed him gone.

And 4 months later I'm well-pleased with the early returns on Project: Amputate Sundquist.

Let's see how it continues.

~G

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 02:06 PM
We fired Ted before the draft, Jr. Like, right before. In order for that to happen - and risk jeopardizing whatever secrecy our war room had - there was a BIG issue between Ted and Mike.

I'm not currently unhappy with how our draft room sans Ted operated to fill some of the major gaps on our team. They definitely went for more blue-collar, more-accountable players who still had loads of talent.

We'll see where it ranks in terms of the decade's drafts in a few years, but if Ted was giving Mike bad advice then he needed to go, and if he couldn't talk Mike out of bad ideas, he also needed to go.

I don't care if it's the Goodmans, Pat, or Shanny himself who are turning over new leaves and getting back to putting together a football team instead of a high-priced primadonna squad.

Any of them separately or all together are fine with me, as long as we stop with the Maurice Clarett style projects (and based on Ted's obnoxious and condescending defense of that draft pick I have to think he was for it).

I wanted Ted to be gone so we could tell who the problem was with. Even if he just amplified Mike's tendencies toward mistakes we needed him gone.

And 4 months later I'm well-pleased with the early returns on Project: Amputate Sundquist.

Let's see how it continues.

~G

It sounded to me like Ted had been kept out of the loop concerning the draft this year anyway.. I also suspect that any severance was tied to keeping his mouth shut and any recommendations would keep him quiet also..

Again I did not think that Ted was a big a player other than "Hey Ted call Holgren and see if X is available" in the war room it was more of ted I need some more coffee..

He and everyone else in the staff is/was IMO gofers for mickey the control freak.

I do not think anyone on this team has ever been able to convince mikey of something he had his heart set on, and your correct Ted needed to go I had been an advocate of that since I signed on to any broncos forum.. Not that he was bad he was not allowed to do his job..

I also think that the draft was a pretty good one for filing holes but almost think Pat laid down some guidelines of what he expected as far as FA, big contract and egos were concerned.. I still think Pat has a tighter bigger reign on him than ever before and that it was reflected in the off season..

Ziggy
06-10-2008, 02:52 PM
None of us know how much input Ted had, and how much Mike took that input into account. We can sit here and say, "Well Mike made the decisions and listened to people like Ted, but they had no real influence." Fact of the matter is, we don't know if that's true or not, and probably never will. I do know that since Goodman was given a higher position (assistant GM) on the personnel side of things, there seems to be a light at the end of the tunnel. We're bringing in higher character guys, (for the most part) , we're filling team needs, and we're investing heavily in the LOS.

Now I don't care if it's because Sunquist is gone, Goodman was promoted, or the sky is blue. All I care about is the fact that we seem to be turning the corner on folks we bring in here, whether it be draft picks or free agents.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
06-10-2008, 03:37 PM
Im not letting Shanny off the hook that easy with blaming Ted for the plus 50 bust we have drafted since Shanny has been here. Every Bronco fan has to know Shanny RAN the show in Denver. Theres not one move that was made that Shanny didnt have a decision to sign off on or not. I think both of them were horrible at being a GM up untill the last couple years and this just past draft. Shanny has been able to win games while drafting 55 bust. Imagine what were going to be like when the talent starts panning out that were drafting now.

Dortoh
06-10-2008, 04:15 PM
Im not letting Shanny off the hook that easy with blaming Ted for the plus 50 bust we have drafted since Shanny has been here. Every Bronco fan has to know Shanny RAN the show in Denver. Theres not one move that was made that Shanny didnt have a decision to sign off on or not. I think both of them were horrible at being a GM up untill the last couple years and this just past draft. Shanny has been able to win games while drafting 55 bust. Imagine what were going to be like when the talent starts panning out that were drafting now.

Is it 50 busts or 55?

Can I get the official list?

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 04:24 PM
Is it 50 busts or 55?

Can I get the official list?


take your pick.

the ones in red were the only keepers worth having IMO..
the ones in orange were marginal starters at best most would/could have not played on any other contending team.r

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1400&type=team

2005 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
2 56 Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma State
3 76 Karl Paymah DB Washington State
3 97 Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
3 101 Maurice Clarett -- Ohio State
6 200 Chris Myers G Miami (Fla.)
7 239 Paul Ernster K Northern Arizona

2004 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 D.J. Williams OLB Miami (Fla.)
2 41 Tatum Bell RB Oklahoma State
2 54 Darius Watts WR Marshall
3 85 Jeremy LeSueur CB Michigan
5 152 Jeff Shoate CB San Diego State
6 171 Triandos Luke WR Alabama
6 190 Josh Sewell -- Nebraska
7 225 Matt Mauck QB Louisiana State
7 247 Brandon Miree RB Pittsburgh
7 250 Bradlee Van Pelt QB Colorado State

2003 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 20 George Foster T Georgia
2 51 Terry Pierce LB Kansas State
4 108 Quentin Griffin RB Oklahoma
4 114 Nick Eason DT Clemson
4 128 Bryant McNeal DE Clemson
5 157 Ben Claxton C Mississippi
5 158 Adrian Madise WR Texas Christian
6 194 Aaron Hunt -- Texas Tech
7 227 Clint Mitchell DE Florida
7 235 Ahmaad Galloway RB Alabama

2002 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 19 Ashley Lelie WR Hawaii
2 51 Clinton Portis RB Miami (Fla.)
3 96 Dorsett Davis DT Mississippi State
4 131 Sam Brandon DB Nevada-Las Vegas
5 144 Herb Haygood WR Michigan State
6 191 Jeb Putzier TE Boise State
7 228 Chris Young DB Georgia Tech
7 231 Monsanto Pope DT Virginia

2001 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Willie Middlebrooks CB Minnesota
2 51 Paul Toviessi DE Marshall
3 87 Reggie Hayward DE Iowa State
4 113 Ben Hamilton C Minnesota
4 120 Nick Harris P California
6 190 Kevin Kasper WR Iowa

2000 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 Deltha O'Neal CB California
2 40 Ian Gold LB Michigan
2 45 Kenoy Kennedy SAF Arkansas
3 70 Chris Cole WR Texas A&M
4 101 Jerry Johnson DT Florida State
4 112 Cooper Carlisle G Florida
5 154 Muneer Moore WR Richmond
6 189 Mike Anderson RB Utah
7 214 Jarious Jackson QB Notre Dame
7 246 Leroy Fields -- Jackson State

1999 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 31 Al Wilson MLB Tennessee
2 58 Montae Reagor DE Texas Tech
2 61 Lennie Friedman C Duke
3 67 Chris Watson CB Eastern Illinois
3 93 Travis McGriff WR Florida
4 127 Olandis Gary RB Georgia
5 158 David Bowens LB Western Illinois
5 167 Darwin Brown DB Texas Tech
6 179 Desmond Clark TE Wake Forest
6 204 Chad Plummer WR Cincinnati
7 218 Billy Miller WR USC
7 238 Justin Swift TE Kansas State

1998 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Marcus Nash WR Tennessee
2 61 Eric Brown SS Mississippi State
3 91 Brian Griese QB Michigan
4 122 Curtis Alexander -- Alabama
5 153 Chris Howard RB Michigan
7 200 Trey Teague T Tennessee
7 219 Nate Wayne LB Mississippi

1997 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 28 Trevor Pryce DT Clemson
3 67 Dan Neil G Texas
4 124 Cory Gilliard DB Ball State

1996 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 John Mobley OLB Kutztown
2 44 Tory James DB Louisiana State
3 65 Detron Smith RB Texas A&M
3 78 Mark Campbell DT Florida
4 100 Jeff Lewis QB Northern Arizona
4 122 Darrius Johnson DB Oklahoma
5 159 Patrick Jeffers WR Virginia
6 181 Tony Veland DB Nebraska
7 213 Leslie Ratliffe -- Tennessee
7 226 Chris Banks G Kansas
7 235 L.T. Levine -- Kansas
7 236 Brian Gragert -- Wyoming

1995 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
4 121 Jamie Brown T Florida A&M
4 124 Ken Brown LB Virginia Tech
5 146 Phil Yeboah-Kodie LB Penn State
6 182 Fritz Fequiere -- Iowa
6 196 Terrell Davis RB Georgia
7 218 Steve Russ LB Air Force
7 222 Byron Chamberlain WR Wayne State (Neb.)

BY marginal I mean they started for us because we flat did not have anyone better to take their spot. If cut or traded they could not hold a starting position else where..

If I counted correctly there are 69 BUSTS on that list not counting the hundreds of FA brought in over that time frame and at least 6-10 high touted expensive Veterans and couple of trades that went belly up..

Mike is most noted for his trade for Champ beyond that his record is less than stellar..

jhns
06-10-2008, 04:26 PM
I think it is funny reading all of the judgments of how people did their job and yet not a single person here has ever been near the Bronco facilities as their where conducting real buiseness.

JR seems to just hate Shanny, which I just don't get comming from a Bronco fan. A lot of others here seem to just hate Ted.

Fact is, noone knows or will ever know what was wrong. Either way, it seems they are getting much better at drafting these past few years. I don't really care what was wrong as long as it is fixed now. The drafting did turn around as the Goodmans have taken more control. That would leave me to believe that Ted was a problem. He may not have been the only problem, but there is a reason that it turned around at that time.

Dortoh
06-10-2008, 04:28 PM
I think your being a litte ruff on 2005 and missing O Gary and maybe a few more marginal people but over all that list is kind of depressing.

BroncoJoe
06-10-2008, 04:36 PM
I think your being a litte ruff on 2005 and missing O Gary and maybe a few more marginal people but over all that list is kind of depressing.

Maybe so, but I'd venture a guess that the other 31 teams drafting looks a lot like the above list.

35% "relative success" rate isn't terrible when looking at prospects.

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 04:39 PM
I think your being a litte ruff on 2005 and missing O Gary and maybe a few more marginal people but over all that list is kind of depressing.

what did Gary do for us that the OLINE did not make for him, once he got to DET he disappeared..

And It is incorrect to say that I hate mikey I'd just rather see a real GM in DEN helping mikey make those decisions..

I think overall he has done great job coaching considering the hand the GM(mikey) handed him..

One only wonders how many more games could have been won with talent that could have been ours had mikey reached for many of those day one choices..

How could anyone on here justify him taking an one handed WR in the second round?

No one could.. if there is any justification of getting a PROFESSIONAL GM in here it should be just two words Darius Watts.

BroncoJoe
06-10-2008, 04:43 PM
Didn't seem all that bad at the time:


Watts attended Marshall University and finished his career with 272 receptions for 4,031 yards (14.8 yards per reception avg.), and 47 touchdowns. He was the squad captain as a junior and a senior. Watts ranks fifth in Division I-A history for receptions in a career, and second for touchdowns in a career.

Dortoh
06-10-2008, 04:43 PM
If I remember correctly Gary was damaged goods before he landed in Det.

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 04:45 PM
Maybe so, but I'd venture a guess that the other 31 teams drafting looks a lot like the above list.

35% "relative success" rate isn't terrible when looking at prospects.

Perhaps you saw some successes that I did not see certainly not 35% that you quoted.

Clarette instead of Barber is perhaps the most recent **** the monkey he had pulled..

There are elite teams and then there are the browns and the bungals..

PAT has an elite franchise and most of the elites do not screw the pooch that often on day one.. like mikey did from 2000-05

go back and look at how many on that list came on that list that were not either LB or OLINE that made this squad and played more than 3 years.. You will not need both hands for that..

BroncoJoe
06-10-2008, 04:48 PM
Perhaps you saw some successes that I did not see certainly not 35% that you quoted.

My bad - did the math wrong. It's around 26%.

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 05:04 PM
Didn't seem all that bad at the time:

he broke alot of Mosses records, but he had ONE usable HAND he was not a day one pick but for anyone that was not desperate to make a another TD type hero out of himself..

Yo may take a one handed guy as a free agent or in the 5-7 rounds when you do not expect them to make the squad but not on day one where you should be building the nucleus of the team for this and next year..

no one can ever tell me he was worth the 54th spot on the draft board.. Keary Colbert went at 62
Sammie Parker at 105
Patrick Cray ton at 216

please do not say that watts was a better player than these three if we ad to have a WR

Here are the players taken right after one handed watts..
55 Greg Jones RB Florida State Jacksonville Jaguars
56 Madieu Williams FS Maryland Cincinnati Bengals
57 Antwan Odom DE Alabama Tennessee Titans
58 Shawntae Spencer CB Pittsburgh San Francisco 49ers
59 Sean Jones SAF Georgia Cleveland Browns
60 Courtney Watson MLB Notre Dame New Orleans Saints
61 Kris Wilson TE Pittsburgh Kansas City Chiefs
62 Keary Colbert WR USC Carolina Panthers
64 Darnell Dockett DT Florida State Arizona Cardinals
65 Nate Kaeding K Iowa San Diego Chargers
66 Nick Hardwick C Purdue San Diego Chargers
67 Stuart Schweigert SAF Purdue Oakland Raiders
68 Ben Hartsock TE Ohio State Indianapolis Colts
69 Gilbert Gardner LB Purdue Indianapolis Colts
70 Joey Thomas CB Montana State Green Bay Packers
71 Randy Starks DT Maryland Tennessee Titans


see anyone on that list that we could have used instead?

Dean
06-10-2008, 05:07 PM
I think that JR is setting his standards unusually high.

Some of these players have played in the league for many years. They were drafted by Denver does the front office not receive credit for them? Others were hurt and never the same after that. Is the front office to be held responsible for those injuries?

:questionmark:

elsid13
06-10-2008, 05:16 PM
Maybe so, but I'd venture a guess that the other 31 teams drafting looks a lot like the above list.

35% "relative success" rate isn't terrible when looking at prospects.

When the average time in the league is about 3 year it isn't. I disagree a lot with the list, there are guys who moved on and are still in the league. Staying the league more then three years isn't a bust. They all might not be all pros but that why the NFL works.

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 05:19 PM
I think that JR is setting his standards unusually high.

Some of these players have played in the league for many years. They were drafted by Denver does the front office not receive credit for them? Others were hurt and never the same after that. Is the front office to be held responsible for those injuries?

:questionmark:

For the most part I do hold DEN to a higher standard much like I would INDY, NE, PIT because they have better owners..

Many of the players that moved on were not indeed starters like they were in DEN.

Many of the were OLINE types and since this is RB and OLINE U would you not expect them to play then..

The ones that moved on like Hayward should not have been allowed to leave and I blame that square on whoever is in charge in DEN..

Same for Price and MA. the only reason they moved on was because of the ridiculous contract they got up front.. we had to cut them because of DEAD CAP space from the other bungals made in prior years..

Coach do you believe that mikey could have had better winning season had he kept a bigger group of day one picks had they been better picks?

I do I realize hindsight is great but many of the folks taken right after our picks in most of these years went on to make it in the NFL and some of the made it big..

Surely the bungals and such do not have or at least should not have better scouting and GM than we do..

we have an elite team mostly because of an elite HC and owner.. yet most of our day one picks that made the team were LB's a complete zero on OLINE and WR's and CB's.

Noe I grant you the past three years appear to have turned around but 2000-05 killed the talent level on this team..

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 05:22 PM
When the average time in the league is about 3 year it isn't. I disagree a lot with the list, there are guys who moved on and are still in the league. Staying the league more then three years isn't a bust. They all might not be all pros but that why the NFL works.

which players moved on and are successful as starters on that list.. maybe I missed some..

Day one picks should be starters IMO, #1 picks should at least have the talent to be all pros..

besides Al and DJ show me the money..

elsid13
06-10-2008, 05:35 PM
which players moved on and are successful as starters on that list.. maybe I missed some..

Day one picks should be starters IMO, #1 picks should at least have the talent to be all pros..

besides Al and DJ show me the money..


Teague/Friedman/Eric Brown/Desmond Clark moved on were starters and key contributors for their new teams. Other like Brandon, would still be playing if weren't for injury.

Everyone that is draft has talent, or they wouldn't be in league. But drafting isn't a science because while it easy to measure guys physical skills, it is impossible to figure what going on in thier hearts. No one has any idea how the draftees will react in the pro environment. Do they have strength of will to go through the grind, the ability to stay focused after they get thier monies?

BroncoJoe
06-10-2008, 05:40 PM
I'm with MB. I'd like to see a break down of the other teams as well. Wonder how our ~26% success rate compares.

P.S. I'm way too lazy to do it myself.

elsid13
06-10-2008, 05:45 PM
I wanted to add something to Shanny/Ted thing. One of the mane major major insider (Wabbit) kinda hinted at the beginning of last season, that was some major issue between the two. Shanahan wasn't happy with the fact that Ted wasn't listen to the guys that he had working for him. That a lot of the draft success for the last couple years could be laid at the feet of the Goodmans not Ted. Add into the fact that it appears that Ted screwed up the original deal for Robinson (there was reason Shanahan took person charge of the negations to get it done), Shanahan decide that was time for change.

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 05:50 PM
I'm with MB. I'd like to see a break down of the other teams as well. Wonder how our ~26% success rate compares.

P.S. I'm way too lazy to do it myself.


there was an analysis done by a outside source not to long ago for the 2000-04 time frame we got a lousy grade. if I remember correct near the bottom of the league if not the worst..

It is on here somewhere in one of the gazillion threads should have book marked it but I did not.. it had stated what I had said for years..

Perhaps one of the more savvy members can find it..

Probabaly the reason that Ted is gone and mikey is on the hot seat..

Dean
06-10-2008, 05:51 PM
For the most part I do hold DEN to a higher standard much like I would INDY, NE, PIT because they have better owners..

Many of the players that moved on were not indeed starters like they were in DEN.
Nate Wayne I believe is still playing, Eric Bronwn played 6 years, freidman and Clark is still playing, and Paymah, Foxworth, and Meyers all contribute.


Many of the were OLINE types and since this is RB and OLINE U would you not expect them to play then..
I don't see how this has anything to do with the subject.


The ones that moved on like Hayward should not have been allowed to leave and I blame that square on whoever is in charge in DEN..
We did not have the cap space which is on the front office but it has nothing to do with drafting.


Same for Price and MA. the only reason they moved on was because of the ridiculous contract they got up front.. we had to cut them because of DEAD CAP space from the other bungals made in prior years..

Coach do you believe that mikey could have had better winning season had he kept a bigger group of day one picks had they been better picks?
Who is to say? I wouldn't have wanted to keep Tevor Pryce and Mike Anderson was getting very old. As for doing better with better player I believe that the answer is an obvious yes, but as I understand it that is not the question here. The question is are the Broncos drafts much worse than other teams.


I do I realize hindsight is great but many of the folks taken right after our picks in most of these years went on to make it in the NFL and some of the made it big..
Does that make all those picks before TD busts because he did so well? It doesn't in my mind.


Surely the bungals and such do not have or at least should not have better scouting and GM than we do..

we have an elite team mostly because of an elite HC and owner.. yet most of our day one picks that made the team were LB's a complete zero on OLINE and WR's and CB's.

I think you have to take the whole draft and the free agents not just the first day.


Noe I grant you the past three years appear to have turned around but 2000-05 killed the talent level on this team..


2000-2005 were not banner years though in my eyes they were better than in yours but they were not the only years to consider.

Dortoh
06-10-2008, 06:01 PM
I wanted to add something to Shanny/Ted thing. One of the mane major major insider (Wabbit) kinda hinted at the beginning of last season, that was some major issue between the two. Shanahan wasn't happy with the fact that Ted wasn't listen to the guys that he had working for him. That a lot of the draft success for the last couple years could be laid at the feet of the Goodmans not Ted. Add into the fact that it appears that Ted screwed up the original deal for Robinson (there was reason Shanahan took person charge of the negations to get it done), Shanahan decide that was time for change.

The poster "Wabbit" is one of the reasons I would never leave the mane. That guy is a fly on the wall.

Lonestar
06-10-2008, 06:03 PM
Nate Wayne I believe is still playing, Eric Bronwn played 6 years, freidman and Clark is still playing, and Paymah, Foxworth, and Meyers all contribute.


I don't see how this has anything to do with the subject.


We did not have the cap space which is on the front office but it has nothing to do with drafting.


Who is to say? I wouldn't have wanted to keep Tevor Pryce and Mike Anderson was getting very old. As for doing better with better player I believe that the answer is an obvious yes, but as I understand it that is not the question here. The question is are the Broncos drafts much worse than other teams.


Does that make all those picks before TD busts because he did so well? It doesn't in my mind.



I think you have to take the whole draft and the free agents not just the first day.




2000-2005 were not banner years though in my eyes they were better than in yours but they were not the only years to consider.

Coach I respect you football knowledge to say the least

IMO it was the 2000-05 years that killed this club drawing it down to 7-9 season that if you take Elam out of the picture would/could have easily been 3-13..

The talent from those years were just now enough to have great starters let alone quality backups.. Once Lepsis went down in 2006 it was all down hill and we hope fully reached our low point last year although unless we really come together quickly this year it could be repeat if not worse..

Mike relied to heavily on FA and did not build via th draft like Pat said we would starting this year.. and probably not so publicly last year..

your correct both price and MA were greatly over paid but it was mikey that served up those contracts, could they have remained and been successful in DEN for a while I think we all know the answer to those questions..

omac
06-10-2008, 08:46 PM
if you take Elam out of the picture would/could have easily been 3-13..

On a side note, Elam missed some very makeable ones during some of those wins, so although he contributed to the wins, he also made some misses that were critical to the score. Had he made those earlier, the game might not have been as close.

Tned
06-10-2008, 08:56 PM
I heard Colbert on Sirius when I was heading home. I missed the begining of the interview, but one thing that was great was that he said that he now understands that Champ is the best corner in the NFL and it is great knowing that in the 16 games of the season he won't see anyone as tough as he is going up against in practice.

When asked about Marshall, he said he would be ready for TC and the season and should be fully healed. He said that two days ago he watched a DVD that had every catch that Marshall made and that he had to tell Marshall the next day that he is one of the most talented receivers in the league. He said that most people don't realize how amazing a receiver he is, and that normally guys that big get a lot of jump balls, but it was amazing to see how many short balls Marshall caught, and then did amazing things after the catch gaining yards.

It was a good interview, I wish I hadn't missed the beginning.

omac
06-10-2008, 09:05 PM
Back on topic ...

Nice article, Ziggy! :salute:

One thing I like about Shanahan is that if something's not working, he's willing to shelve it and go in a totally different direction. Sometimes something works, sometimes it doesn't, but he'll never be afraid of experimenting to get the team better.

Though Coyer's defense on the whole was pretty solid, he needed a better pass rush, so he got Bates. When Bates failed misserably against the run, he demoted him and promoted Slowik. Slowik is a risk in that he doesn't have a proven track record, but the players seem to respond well to him, and this season seems to be more about team chemistry than pure talent.

Benching the veteran Plummer for the rookie Cutler was a big risk, but already, we see how much more diversified our offense is. Coincidingly, with the emergence of Cutler came the emergence of Marshall and Scheffler, and the rejuvenation of Stokley's career.

Bringing in the Browncos was a new approach, and most people didn't like it, but those Browncos seemed more effective against the run than last season's team was.

Contrast Shanny's strive towards innovation versus Lovie Smith's need to keep things the same .... Rex plays good, Rex plays bad, then bad, then bad .... then contract extension for Rex and continued starter duty. Despite how bad Benson was playing during the season, he still kept him as the #1 throughout most of the season.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
06-11-2008, 10:02 AM
he broke alot of Mosses records, but he had ONE usable HAND he was not a day one pick but for anyone that was not desperate to make a another TD type hero out of himself..

Yo may take a one handed guy as a free agent or in the 5-7 rounds when you do not expect them to make the squad but not on day one where you should be building the nucleus of the team for this and next year..

no one can ever tell me he was worth the 54th spot on the draft board.. Keary Colbert went at 62
Sammie Parker at 105
Patrick Cray ton at 216

please do not say that watts was a better player than these three if we ad to have a WR

Here are the players taken right after one handed watts..
55 Greg Jones RB Florida State Jacksonville Jaguars
56 Madieu Williams FS Maryland Cincinnati Bengals
57 Antwan Odom DE Alabama Tennessee Titans
58 Shawntae Spencer CB Pittsburgh San Francisco 49ers
59 Sean Jones SAF Georgia Cleveland Browns
60 Courtney Watson MLB Notre Dame New Orleans Saints
61 Kris Wilson TE Pittsburgh Kansas City Chiefs
62 Keary Colbert WR USC Carolina Panthers
64 Darnell Dockett DT Florida State Arizona Cardinals
65 Nate Kaeding K Iowa San Diego Chargers
66 Nick Hardwick C Purdue San Diego Chargers
67 Stuart Schweigert SAF Purdue Oakland Raiders
68 Ben Hartsock TE Ohio State Indianapolis Colts
69 Gilbert Gardner LB Purdue Indianapolis Colts
70 Joey Thomas CB Montana State Green Bay Packers
71 Randy Starks DT Maryland Tennessee Titans


see anyone on that list that we could have used instead?

You can point out all the bust, Thats fine but to Monday Morning Quarterback is pushing the line. Any team can look back and say " Wow i wish we took this person instead of that persone because he turned out better. Im not going to go there because thats easy. But i am going to point out the 50 plus bust we have drafted. Well 65 according to your chart. It was pretty sad when i first seen that type of list online. Gosh we have wasted so many picks, And people can say every team probably looks like that but im not buying it. Bad teams charts are that horrible. I believe the Colts are one of the best teams in the NFL. Every starter on that team was drafted i believe. If you want to look at the perfect way then you need to look at teams like the Colts and Giants have done a good job drafting lastely also. They won a SB with key rookies contributing. SO once you figure this draft thing out then sky is the limit. I think we figured it out. Love the last few classes.

pilfin
06-11-2008, 11:59 AM
You can point out all the bust, Thats fine but to Monday Morning Quarterback is pushing the line. Any team can look back and say " Wow i wish we took this person instead of that persone because he turned out better. Im not going to go there because thats easy. But i am going to point out the 50 plus bust we have drafted. Well 65 according to your chart. It was pretty sad when i first seen that type of list online. Gosh we have wasted so many picks, And people can say every team probably looks like that but im not buying it. Bad teams charts are that horrible. I believe the Colts are one of the best teams in the NFL. Every starter on that team was drafted i believe. If you want to look at the perfect way then you need to look at teams like the Colts and Giants have done a good job drafting lastely also. They won a SB with key rookies contributing. SO once you figure this draft thing out then sky is the limit. I think we figured it out. Love the last few classes.

Ask and ye shall receive. Here are the Indianapolis Colts' drafts:

2008
2.28 OT Mike Pollak
3.30 OLB Philip Wheeler
4.28 TE Jacob Tamme
5.26 OLB Marcus Howard
6.30 TE Tom Santi
6.35 OC Steve Justice
6.36 RB Mike Hart
6.39 WR Pierre Garcon
7.29 OL Jamey Richard

2007
1.32 WR Anthony Gonzalez
2.10 OG Tony Ugoh
3.31 CB Daymeion Hughes
3.34 DT Quinn Pitcock
4.32 DB Brannon Condren
4.37 LB Clint Session
5.32 WR Roy Hall
5.36 CB Michael Coe
7.32 DE Keyunta Dawson

2006
1.30 RB Joseph Addai
2.30 CB Tim Jennings
3.30 OLB Freddy Keiaho
5.29 OT Michael Toudouze
6.30 OT Charlie Johnson
6.38 SS Antoine Bethea

2005
1.29 CB Marlin Jackson
2.28 CB Kelvin Hayden
3.29 DL Vincent Burns
4.28 OC Dylan Gandy
4.34 FS Matt Giordano
5.12 DE Jonathan Welsh
5.29 OC Robert Hunt
5.37 OLB Tyjaun Hagler
6.28 K Dave Rayner
7.29 RB Anthony Davis

2004
2.12 FS Bob Sanders
3.05 TE Ben Hartsock
3.06 OLB Gilbert Gardner
4.11 LB Kendyll Pope
4.29 CB Jason David
5.09 OG Jake Scott
6.08 CB Von Hutchins
6.28 QB Jim Sorgi
7.28 K David Kimball

2003
1.24 TE Dallas Clark
2.26 SS Mike Doss
3.26 CB Donald Strickland
4.25 OG Steve Sciullo
5.03 DE Robert Mathis
5.27 MLB Keyon Whiteside
6.25 OLB Cato June
6.35 OG Makoa Freitas

2002
1.11 DE Dwight Freeney
2.10 DT Larry Tripplett
3.09 CB Joseph Jefferson
4.08 OLB David Thornton
6.10 DT David Pugh
6.11 S James Lewis
6.32 RB Brian Allen
7.09 DE Josh Mallard

2001
1.30 WR Reggie Wayne
2.06 FS Idrees Bashir
3.29 S Cory Bird
4.23 OT Ryan Diem
5.21 CB Raymond Walls
6.30 S Jason Doering
7.20 OG Rick DeMulling

2000
1.28 MLB Rob Morris
2.28 OLB Marcus Washington
3.29 CB David Macklin
4.28 DT Josh Williams
5.09 OG Matt Johnson
7.29 DL Rob Renes
7.32 CB Rodregis Brooks

1999
1.04 RB Edgerrin James
2.05 MLB Mike Peterson
4.01 CB Paul Miranda
5.05 DE Brad Scioli

1998
1.01 QB Peyton Manning
2.02 WR Jerome Pathon
3.10 WR E.G. Green

1997
4.21 DB Delmonico Montgomery
5.26 DE Carl Powell

1996
1.19 WR Marvin Harrison
2.21 CB Dedric Mathis
3.21 TE Scott Slutzker
4.20 RB Brian Milne
5.19 DT Steve Martin

1995
1.15 DT Ellis Johnson
2.16 TE Ken Dilger
3.15 FB Zack Crockett
4.16 CB Ray McElroy


You know, I looked this up to show everyone that even the Colts have a bunch of busts and the two teams' drafts were pretty similiar. However, after looking at the list, I realized that the Colts DESTROYED us in the drafting department. Every single draft they got guys who contributed, and just about every single draft they got guys who are top 10 in the league at their position. Did you notice that they never really struck out in the first round? Those are amazing first round picks. WOW. Bill Polian IS a genius.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
06-11-2008, 12:29 PM
Yeah they have alot of bust also, But just about every year there 11 starters on offense and defense were drafted. And there constantly winning 12 plus games. There so consistantly good because of how well they have drafted year in and out. They have alot of starters they took 5 plus years ago. We probably have a few who were homegrown products from 5 plus years ago. I just love how that organization is ran. All homegrown talent and KEEP your big time homegrown talent. We need to make sure we resign guys like Marshall, Dumervil, etc this time around instead of letting guys walk, while bringing in other teams garbage.

Lonestar
06-11-2008, 01:18 PM
Yeah they have alot of bust also, But just about every year there 11 starters on offense and defense were drafted. And there constantly winning 12 plus games. There so consistantly good because of how well they have drafted year in and out. They have alot of starters they took 5 plus years ago. We probably have a few who were homegrown products from 5 plus years ago. I just love how that organization is ran. All homegrown talent and KEEP your big time homegrown talent. We need to make sure we resign guys like Marshall, Dumervil, etc this time around instead of letting guys walk, while bringing in other teams garbage.

Good post glad to see that folks can realize we have faults.

How I ask do you really think that Dungy is as good a coach as mikey is?

Was it the coach that turned that team around or the great GM with a good coach?

If we were to have Polian in here with mikey, this team would be unstoppable..

I know that Polian did not just sit down and take players because he liked them but because it was a need for the team and he no doubt had great input from Dungy and his staff..

Perhaps with the new group that will happen her I do not know so far that past three drafts appear to be back on the correct road but time will tell.

Remember that most of mikey past DAFTEES did not make it out of TC #3 that means the class of 2006 is on the clock..

TXBRONC
06-11-2008, 08:27 PM
That's why I used the term "advice". I know Shanahan has final say, but he receives advice from his people, and I would imagine makes decisions based on that advice.

Yep, whether some people believe it or not Shanahan does rely on those around him in making decisions.

Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal
06-11-2008, 09:15 PM
Good post glad to see that folks can realize we have faults.

How I ask do you really think that Dungy is as good a coach as mikey is?

Was it the coach that turned that team around or the great GM with a good coach?

If we were to have Polian in here with mikey, this team would be unstoppable..

I know that Polian did not just sit down and take players because he liked them but because it was a need for the team and he no doubt had great input from Dungy and his staff..

Perhaps with the new group that will happen her I do not know so far that past three drafts appear to be back on the correct road but time will tell.

Remember that most of mikey past DAFTEES did not make it out of TC #3 that means the class of 2006 is on the clock..

Dungy is a great coach, Top 3 in the NFL right now to me. They just so happen to have a great GM also. Goes hand in hand because players respect Dungy and will run through a wall for him.