Jagsbch Tebow threads

[Jagsbch]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/000/983/012/95632033_crop_340x234.jpg?1278082574

Taking into account the accomplishments Tim Tebow managed to achieve at the highest collegiate level of competition, wouldn’t be fair to say that every other player drafted in the 2010 NFL Draft has more to prove than Tebow?

If we are going to use results and success as a measuring stick, it most certainly would.

How does being the most efficient passer in SEC history, while breaking a few dozen other SEC and NCAA records, lend to Tim Tebow's mechanics being an obstacle he needs to overcome? Especially when you consider how Tebow transcended the phenomenal success he possessed in high school to the collegiate level with his unorthodox mechanics.

Why does unorthodox have to equate to being a flaw when the deafening sound of the successful results of the individual player speak otherwise?

Has conventional thinking distinguished opinion rather than results based on performance as a substitute for success?

If success were the result of performance, then why would we allow our opinions to assume otherwise? Especially considering how so many other players have achieved greatness with unorthodox mechanics.

Byron Leftwich was a top 10 quarterback in 2005, the season before he was ultimately benched and replaced by a mobile QB. Last season, Byron managed to be ranked third in the league in TDs and yards combined before he was benched in Game Three after a failed attempt by his coaching staff to force him to play in an obsolete West Coast offensive scheme.

The past two seasons, however, Byron had managed to have only one sack per 28 attempts, a far cry from the top 10 quarterback he is replacing in Pittsburgh. Ben Roethlisberger , with his conventional mechanics, has managed to only have 10 attempts per sack with his average the past two seasons.

In the past four seasons, the future Hall of Famer Roethlisberger has had a sack average of nearly 50 a season. His offensive coordinator last season attributed half of the sacks to being entirely on the quarterback.

Even Eli Manning, with his conventional mechanics, managed to turn the ball over 22 times last season between lost fumbles and interceptions. The past four of five seasons his average rate of turnovers has been 22 per season.

The reason I bring these quarterbacks up is to prove that sacks, turnovers as a result of fumbles, and interceptions are not synonymous with long, unorthodox wind up passes as we are led by the so-called experts.

Phillip Rivers said he has possessed his unorthodox throwing motion since he was a kid.

Rivers has been a top five quarterback the past two seasons.

Rivers was No. 3 in 2009, and No. 1 in 2008

Who hasn't heard of the Legends Jack Nicolas and Brett Favre ?

What do these players have in common? Their unorthodox mechanics.

From Brett's windmill that has the ball go from his knees to the end zone for touchdowns, to...

You can follow the link to read the rest of my article if you like... (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/414652-tim-tebows-unorthodox-mechanics-a-prerequisite-for-legendary-success)

[SOCALORADO.]

Whatever side of the tracks Tim Tebow's currently on is the right side. If he crossed over them, he would still be on the right side.

[Northman]

Interesting write up but Big Ben does have 2 rings despite the sacks, etc. When it comes down to it we just have to wait and see with Tebow of whether or not his mechanics will translate well to the NFL. No offense to you Jags but the so-called experts thought it important enough he change his mechanics so much so that Tebow himself took it upon himself to try and change. If Tebow thought his mechanics were fine he would of just continued doing what he was doing. So somewhere in all that those who are closer to the situation than you or I know what they are talking about. But again, its a wait and see game right now until we can see what he can actually do in a live game enviroment.

[Jagsbch]

Interesting write up but Big Ben does have 2 rings despite the sacks, etc. When it comes down to it we just have to wait and see with Tebow of whether or not his mechanics will translate well to the NFL. No offense to you Jags but the so-called experts thought it important enough he change his mechanics so much so that Tebow himself took it upon himself to try and change. If Tebow thought his mechanics were fine he would of just continued doing what he was doing. So somewhere in all that those who are closer to the situation than you or I know what they are talking about. But again, its a wait and see game right now until we can see what he can actually do in a live game enviroment.

Ya that is the thing Tim loves to try to please. Tebow was not going to be stubborn and look like a nuckle head by not at least trying to improve his mechanics if he could.

But Tebow, according to his Denver teammates has been reverting back to old throwing motion. So it is obvious that he tried, and it was just not for him to go conventional with his lifetimes unorthodox throwing motion; or... like you said it is a wait and see.

[Lonestar]

Good thoughts BUT Your about to hear from the nay sayers.
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[SOCALORADO.]

Signs that say "This is not an exit" do not apply to Tim Tebow.

[silkamilkamonico]

Legendary success, or ultimate failure -- for both him, and the Broncos organization

[Jagsbch]

Legendary success, or ultimate failure -- for both him, and the Broncos organization

I hardly see it as being ultimate failure given the tremendous depth at the QB position.

[silkamilkamonico]

I hardly see it as being ultimate failure given the tremendous depth at the QB position.

If Denver wasted a second, third, and fourth round draft pick, for another first round draft pick, only to use that first round draft pick on Tim Tebwo, who has unorthodox mechanics, and in turn does not work out, it would most absolutely be an utlimate failure.

[MasterShake]

Good thoughts BUT Your about to hear from the nay sayers.
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I can't wait to see what Tebow does on the field, but I hope its not until next season that we see him predominately.

[Tned]

I can't wait to see what Tebow does on the field, but I hope its not until next season that we see him predominately.

I doubt he will be ready until next season, but I would love for him to be so good, so quick that he forces his way behind center much sooner.

[Jagsbch]

If Denver wasted a second, third, and fourth round draft pick, for another first round draft pick, only to use that first round draft pick on Tim Tebwo, who has unorthodox mechanics, and in turn does not work out, it would most absolutely be an utlimate failure.

You and I have different definitions as to what ultimate means.

The ultimate sacrifice?

Ultimate means death of a season. Tebow does not make or break this team at the moment.

[The Glue Factory]

I doubt he will be ready until next season, but I would love for him to be so good, so quick that he forces his way behind center much sooner.

Orton wasn't ready for last year, last year. He was just better than any of our options.

[Lonestar]

Post like these remind me of the story of the guy who every day of his life said, "Its gonna rain today". And of course, when it finally did rain one day he would say, "Told ya so!". :lol:

I can't wait to see what Tebow does on the field, but I hope its not until next season that we see him predominately.

Actually I was right on the mark.

At the time I dowloaded the thread a few minutes after it was posted I hit a dead cell area east of ELP and when I could reply an hour and some later 3-4 posts were indeed naysayers.


Sorry but I do not reply while driving only when riding. And have cell service. That was what caused the delay.

Some of us do not set behind a crt all day.
;focus;

I will agree with the rest of your post.

I doubt that we will see much of him this year unless the other two meltdown. OR in certain packages.

FWIW now about. Hours out of OKC. Going yo Yukon in search of a house.
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[Lonestar]

Orton wasn't ready for last year, last year. He was just better than any of our options.

No one on either side of the LOS was consistently doing their job in the new schemes.

On O many of the WR ran wrong routes negating options to throw to. That is not to say that Orton was prefecto either but atleast he protected the ball and had IIRC better than 2 to 1 TD to pick ratio. Still set a career highs in all the. Pertinent stats.

I'm looking forward to him having a contract year and hopefully a great year for the TEAM.
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[WARHORSE]

Yeah.......how come no one talks about Favres delivery mechanics?


Seem awfully similar to Tebows college look if you aks me.




No I didnt misspell that.:coffee:

[Lonestar]

Those that have will bring up he is a HOF and Tebow has done squat after Josh wasted a bunch of picks on him. That nothing in college means anything. Even though he set bunches of records while in the SEC.

All the while for every one else other than him proclaiming to the world that jay was a SEC. Wunderkinder who was not surrounded by anyone.
No bias at all here.
Ahahahahahahahaha
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[Lonestar]

Now for those that are checking or wondering about me being on line so much I'm not offically logging off but the door is closing on the airplane in OKC. And wil be off the air for a few hours till I get to ATL.
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[silkamilkamonico]

You and I have different definitions as to what ultimate means.

The ultimate sacrifice?

Ultimate means death of a season. Tebow does not make or break this team at the moment.

Failure of Tebow most likely means the failure of McDaniels, which means the organization is reeling in turmoil.

An the use of the word "turmoil" is probably not quite as an exaggeration as your use of the word "legendary".

[WARHORSE]

Failure of Tebow most likely means the failure of McDaniels, which means the organization is reeling in turmoil.

An the use of the word "turmoil" is probably not quite as an exaggeration as your use of the word "legendary".


I thought exaggeration was a good word.:D




Every draft pick is a risk. But what I like about the Tebow selection is how we navigated the draft to get him, without losing picks.

We got the players we wanted, both Thomas AND Tebow.

Lastly, no other player in that draft has the ability to galvanize a nation like Tebow does. His jersey sales and media coverage, not to mention the companies who want to sign him to longterm PR deals are telling you that.


If Tebow proves to be able to play well and win on this level, he not only will be a star......he will be the brightest star in the league.:coffee:

[silkamilkamonico]

I thought exaggeration was a good word.:D




Every draft pick is a risk. But what I like about the Tebow selection is how we navigated the draft to get him, without losing picks.

We got the players we wanted, both Thomas AND Tebow.

Lastly, no other player in that draft has the ability to galvanize a nation like Tebow does. His jersey sales and media coverage, not to mention the companies who want to sign him to longterm PR deals are telling you that.


If Tebow proves to be able to play well and win on this level, he not only will be a star......he will be the brightest star in the league.:coffee:

We got the players we wanted, but if they turn out to be busts, and yes it could happen because it can happen with any pick, where's the organization at?

I could give a shit about jersey sales. That doesn't concern me. I'm only concerned about winning in the playoffs. And 1 playoff win in the last 11 years tells me this organization is in a desperate taste for some success. Even the Raiders have lapped in that since the turn of the century.

[Northman]

We got the players we wanted, but if they turn out to be busts, and yes it could happen because it can happen with any pick, where's the organization at?

I could give a shit about jersey sales. That doesn't concern me. I'm only concerned about winning in the playoffs. And 1 playoff win in the last 11 years tells me this organization is in a desperate taste for some success. Even the Raiders have lapped in that since the turn of the century.

Amen. Who gives a **** about jersey sales? Really? Is that what people are concerned about here and not actually winning games? :lol:

[T.K.O.]

Tebow knows winning:beer:

[Lonestar]

I thought exaggeration was a good word.:D




Every draft pick is a risk. But what I like about the Tebow selection is how we navigated the draft to get him, without losing picks.

We got the players we wanted, both Thomas AND Tebow.

Lastly, no other player in that draft has the ability to galvanize a nation like Tebow does. His jersey sales and media coverage, not to mention the companies who want to sign him to longterm PR deals are telling you that.


If Tebow proves to be able to play well and win on this level, he not only will be a star......he will be the brightest star in the league.:coffee:


good post but as you can see it was not met with enthusiasm.

While jersey sales are not eh end all it was the boost in the arm that Pat has been looking for.


Apparently the last few years has left a lot of inventory for game day tickets going un used mainly the box seats and mega level ones are not being bought. having PR like getting John back involved is a priority for him. to boost the ticket sales and well as product on the field.

Any sales are profit for the TEAM.






We got the players we wanted, but if they turn out to be busts, and yes it could happen because it can happen with any pick, where's the organization at?

I could give a shit about jersey sales. That doesn't concern me. I'm only concerned about winning in the playoffs. And 1 playoff win in the last 11 years tells me this organization is in a desperate taste for some success. Even the Raiders have lapped in that since the turn of the century.

Your absolutely correct the raiders chefs and bolts have been running laps around the team since its last glory years of 97-98.

Now who was at fault there? Josh and Tebow, nope. Finally there is some genuine excitement from more than just the Colorado region.


Amen. Who gives a **** about jersey sales? Really? Is that what people are concerned about here and not actually winning games? :lol:

I realize that you do not equate a total rebuild of the TEAM with character players as essential but I'll just guess that Pat does and was the reason for the changes made.

IMAGE is important to the TEAM and the ability to sell tickets. As I sated above probably why Josh reached out to JOhn for some help in getting back to quality players that are not scum bags and divas. And we ALL know that we have had our share of them the past 10+ years or so.

I think the average fan is turned of by them and the corporations that bring clients to games well if they can go to another sporting event and accomplish the same thing well there goes that high end ticket.

Now with a nationally known name in Tebow and John getting back involved there will be excitement back from not just the local fans but others as well..

BACK in the saddle again after a 30 hours drive from ELP to OKC and flight back to ELP Via ATL I'm one tired puppy. but still feisty.

[OrangeHoof]

I think it's pretty clear that Tebow will either be sensational or a terrific bust. The track record of run-first quarterbacks is not pretty and it's not like he is a slick passer that just needed an opportunity. Then again, we'll see how far his extraordinary intangibles and his will to win take him. I'm not optimistic at this point but I'll stay open-minded.

[Northman]

I realize that you do not equate a total rebuild of the TEAM with character players as essential but I'll just guess that Pat does and was the reason for the changes made.

IMAGE is important to the TEAM and the ability to sell tickets. As I sated above probably why Josh reached out to JOhn for some help in getting back to quality players that are not scum bags and divas. And we ALL know that we have had our share of them the past 10+ years or so.

I think the average fan is turned of by them and the corporations that bring clients to games well if they can go to another sporting event and accomplish the same thing well there goes that high end ticket.

Now with a nationally known name in Tebow and John getting back involved there will be excitement back from not just the local fans but others as well..

BACK in the saddle again after a 30 hours drive from ELP to OKC and flight back to ELP Via ATL I'm one tired puppy. but still feisty.


Again, you flail your arms like a toddler and miss the overall point. You can have 53 nice guys and thats all swell and sweet McFly.But in the end its about winning and thats all i am as a fan concerned with. Sure, i dont think having scumbags is the answer as it usually isnt but if Tebow and company fail at winning it wont matter how nice they were. People can buy all the Tebow jersey's they want but i just want to win, everything else is irrelevant for me as a Bronco fan unless this team is winning.

[Jagsbch]

Live stream at this link... (http://viewers.316networks.com/viewer/viewerframes_parent.asp?b=&p=&networkID=3000321&WMP=1&WMPv=7&RPIE=1&RPNAV=0)

[Nomad]

FYI, I don't mind this and like seeing Tebow involved, but some here get all uptight when it comes to religion and Tebow. So something like this may be better fitted for the religion forum, but thanks for the link!!

[Lonestar]

they do not have to click the link nor for that matter clink on the thread if they are up tight.

It is not like they are forced to do so.

Nor does everyone have access to the P&R area.
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[Lonestar]

Again, you flail your arms like a toddler and miss the overall point. You can have 53 nice guys and thats all swell and sweet McFly.But in the end its about winning and thats all i am as a fan concerned with. Sure, i dont think having scumbags is the answer as it usually isnt but if Tebow and company fail at winning it wont matter how nice they were. People can buy all the Tebow jersey's they want but i just want to win, everything else is irrelevant for me as a Bronco fan unless this team is winning.

And you can rage and howl at the moon and not undersatnd that Pat made the choice to go this direction.

That he beleives that Character can win games.

No one has yet to correlate that having high character guys means they have NO talent. Or that having expensive players mans your giing to win consistently.

Please see WAS, DAL and OAK as prime examples and you can add SAN into that mix.

Pat has decided that his HC and FO kniw what they are doing and it will pay off

I believe that it will pay off and suspect there are more like me than the few naysayers like yourself.

Having talented ME players certainly did not help this team over the past few years win anything.

We have not won anything of import since the quality TEAM players retired.

Time to get that back.
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[T.K.O.]

Again, you flail your arms like a toddler and miss the overall point. You can have 53 nice guys and thats all swell and sweet McFly.But in the end its about winning and thats all i am as a fan concerned with. Sure, i dont think having scumbags is the answer as it usually isnt but if Tebow and company fail at winning it wont matter how nice they were. People can buy all the Tebow jersey's they want but i just want to win, everything else is irrelevant for me as a Bronco fan unless this team is winning.

i understand the desire for the team to win....but win at any cost?
i don't think you (or any fan) truly believes that as long as the team wins,you dont care how.
i think fans want to be able to back the team not only because they are winners but also because they are the good guys,the underdogs,the scrappy bunch that nobody gave a chance....ala the 97' broncos etc...
there is no way i believe that a fan could be just as proud of a team filled with deadbeat dads,ex-cons and juice junkies who win than if they were decent hard working over acheivers.
not saying any team is gonna be filled with only good guys....bnut i for one would prefer to root for such a team.
good guys can be badasses too.....ask chuck norris ....or tim tebow;)

[Northman]

And you can rage and howl at the moon and not undersatnd that Pat made the choice to go this direction.

Show me where ive said differently? If not, ****.



No one has yet to correlate that having high character guys means they have NO talent. Or that having expensive players mans your giing to win consistently.

Again, show me where ive stated that.


Pat has decided that his HC and FO kniw what they are doing and it will pay off

Of course he does, so does every Bronco fan in the world. But until it happens, its just a wait and see game.


I believe that it will pay off and suspect there are more like me than the few naysayers like yourself.

I never said he wouldnt succeed only that he hasnt yet. Big difference genius.


Having talented ME players certainly did not help this team over the past few years win anything.

Again numbnuts, i said Cutler forced his way out of town. I was 100% of getting rid of Marshall. Show me where ive asked for them to come back? Oh yea, you cant. Again, ****.


We have not won anything of import since the quality TEAM players retired.

Time to get that back.
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And we are still waiting. :coffee:

[Lonestar]

i understand the desire for the team to win....but win at any cost?
i don't think you (or any fan) truly believes that as long as the team wins,you dont care how.
i think fans want to be able to back the team not only because they are winners but also because they are the good guys,the underdogs,the scrappy bunch that nobody gave a chance....ala the 97' broncos etc...
there is no way i believe that a fan could be just as proud of a team filled with deadbeat dads,ex-cons and juice junkies who win than if they were decent hard working over acheivers.
not saying any team is gonna be filled with only good guys....bnut i for one would prefer to root for such a team.
good guys can be badasses too.....ask chuck norris ....or tim tebow;)

Great post.

Some do not care they have only ME issuses want it fast and who cares winning at any cost.

Well we tried that for over a decade and it failed miserably.

Now Pat has said he wants to try the TEAM way.

So time to set back and See if it works.

We already know that TEBOW sells jerseys. Let's see if he and the teams can win games.
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[Northman]

i understand the desire for the team to win....but win at any cost?
i don't think you (or any fan) truly believes that as long as the team wins,you dont care how.
i think fans want to be able to back the team not only because they are winners but also because they are the good guys,the underdogs,the scrappy bunch that nobody gave a chance....ala the 97' broncos etc...
there is no way i believe that a fan could be just as proud of a team filled with deadbeat dads,ex-cons and juice junkies who win than if they were decent hard working over acheivers.
not saying any team is gonna be filled with only good guys....bnut i for one would prefer to root for such a team.
good guys can be badasses too.....ask chuck norris ....or tim tebow;)

Show me where i said we would win with scumbags? Anywhere. Ill wait.

[Northman]

Great post.

Some do not care they have only ME issuses want it fast and who cares winning at any cost.

Well we tried that for over a decade and it failed miserably.

Now Pat has said he wants to try the TEAM way.

So time to set back and See if it works.

We already know that TEBOW sells jerseys. Let's see if he and the teams can win games.
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For the last time bitch, either show me where i posted that or its time to simply put your troll ass on ignore. If you cant have a discussion without pulling shit out of your ass than your not worth my time anymore.

[Lonestar]

Show me where ive said differently? If not, ****.




And we are still waiting. :coffee:

Rude and hostile much.

As for waiting give the guy and team a chance rarely do teams change everthing but the logo challenge for the superbowl in the first year.

Give them time
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[Northman]

Rude and hostile much.

As for waiting give the guy and team a chance rarely do teams change everthing but the logo challenge for the superbowl in the first year.

Give them time
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Hence why i said WAIT AND SEE. What part of that do you not comprehend?

[Lonestar]

For the last time bitch, either show me where i posted that or its time to simply put your troll ass on ignore. If you cant have a discussion without pulling shit out of your ass than your not worth my time anymore.

Hostile responses mean nothing to me me and lots of other posters.

Where Have I pointd the figr at you specially if you feel I have when I say SOME or Y'all means that YOU have a guilty conscience about it.

If you want to put me in IGGY no skin off my nose.
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[Northman]

Hostile responses mean nothing to me me and lots of other posters.

Where Have I pointd the figr at you specially if you feel I have when I say SOME or Y'all means that YOU have a guilty conscience about it.

If you want to put me in IGGY no skin off my nose.
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Your 100% correct. Your not worth the time anymore.

[Jagsbch]

I am the beat writer who is responsible for covering Tebow. If your offended by Jesus, then you clearly have bigger problems than me posting current events regarding an interview Tebow gave today.

Here is an articly I just completed regarding an event that took place yesterday.

Tim Tebow gets key to the city (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/415428-tim-tebow-gets-key-to-the-city)

[Tned]

i understand the desire for the team to win....but win at any cost?
i don't think you (or any fan) truly believes that as long as the team wins,you dont care how.
i think fans want to be able to back the team not only because they are winners but also because they are the good guys,the underdogs,the scrappy bunch that nobody gave a chance....ala the 97' broncos etc...
there is no way i believe that a fan could be just as proud of a team filled with deadbeat dads,ex-cons and juice junkies who win than if they were decent hard working over acheivers.
not saying any team is gonna be filled with only good guys....bnut i for one would prefer to root for such a team.
good guys can be badasses too.....ask chuck norris ....or tim tebow;)

To an extent, yes, I am fine with win at any costs. I'll try and explain.

Football is entertainment. Yes, it's more than that, since for many of us fans it isn't just about watching a game on Sunday and then not thinking about it for another week, so it is more (or different) entertainment than just a movie or TV show, but entertainment none the less.

One of the reasons I bring up entertainment is because there are actors that I can't stand politically. That I feel are wrong to use their celebrity status to inundate us with their views on politics or other issues, but I still watch their 'product' if they are a good actor. There are some actors who live lives I don't approve of or think is wrong (Robert Downey Jr, Charlie Sheen, Keifer Sutherland, etc.), but I still think they are good (or at least entertaining) actors and I watch their stuff.

The point is that I am able to separate whether or not I agree or approve of a person's beliefs or behavior from enjoying watching them perform their craft.

There have been many former Broncos who lived lives or behaved in ways that I didn't approve (DUI, drugs, domestic abuse, treatment of fans, reporters, holdouts, etc.), but I didn't support the team less because of it. The fact is that from what I have seen, I wouldn't 'approve' of most of the players on the team now, if I started using my own 'moral standard' to judge them. Regardless, I'll still support the team as loyally as I always have, because I support the Broncos TEAM, not individual players or staff.

Back to winning, yes, it is the most important thing for me. For some, talking about the draft, and then of course seeing the results, is the end all be all. For some, it's the promise of the future. They care less about today, as long as there is some 'hope' of a better tomorrow. When we put a poll up about whether you would rather have a 7-9 season or get the first pick in the draft, these two groups will typically vote for the first pick.

For me, everything (forum talk, draft, training camp coverage, etc.) is just foreplay for the 'next' game. When the season ends, it's a long, long wait for that next game, and as it gets close to the end of the season, I dread it because I know that soon, I will have another six month wait to see my next game.

To an extent, I live and die by each game. I don't care about next season or five seasons from now, I care about THIS season, THIS game. Given a choice of 7 wins this season or a 3 win season with the first pick next year, I will take my extra 4 wins any day over the slim 'chance' that the number one pick will make the team a contender for years to come.

So, for me, I honestly don't care whether or not we have 'character' guys, because many, if not most, of the so-called "high character" guys in the NFL are "low character" in my book. I don't care if a guy is "team focused" vs. "me focused" as long as he performs on the field. If his motivation to help the team is to earn himself a better contract, then power to him. If his motivation is to leave it all on the field for his team mates, then power to him.

If McDaniels can put together a winning team of "team focused" and "high character" guys that win as well as 'normal' NFL players, than power to him. There is no question that all things being equal, this would be more enjoyable as a fan, but ONLY if the team wins as much and wins as soon.

[Northman]

This belongs in the religion forum.

[honz]

If you are offended by atheism, then you clearly have bigger problems than me posting current events regarding an interview Abe Lincoln gave today.

Just playing the devil's advocate...don't shoot the messenger!

[BroncoJoe]

Nice post, T. I hate the political views of The Dixie Chicks, but rather like their music.

[Jagsbch]

Football is religion. BTW you don't have to be an atheist to have a problem with Jesus.

I am not offended by athiesm, hell I celebrate the orthodoxies holiday every April 1st~!!:eek:

[NightTrainLayne]

Nice post, T. I hate the political views of The Dixie Chicks, but rather like their music.

Oh brother. I thought you were getting back on the right track when you got rid of the Liberty. :doh:

[Lonestar]

Well call me a prude but I will not pay to see the dixie choices, nor pay for any application of it.

If it is on free radio, I may not turn it off. But I will do nothing to allow them to profit from me.

In that respect, I vote with my dollar and will not reward actors, artists that I feel are traitors to my country.

They are still douche bags because they can sing like an angel, that other douche bags actually listen to their political agendas.

Sorry but I'm pretty black and white in those areas.

As for winning at all costs, somehow you always lose when trying to do it that way.

Perhaps not a game, but your integrity and which is more important a game or self worth.

We all saw mikey do that by bringing in questionable players like carter gardner etc and karma bit him in the ass for doing so IMHO.

trying to take short cuts with a cancer just gets you killed in the long term.

[TXBRONC]

Football is religion. BTW you don't have to be an atheist to have a problem with Jesus.

I am not offended by athiesm, hell I celebrate the orthodoxies holiday every April 1st~!!:eek:

Well Jags just don't be surprised when it is moved to the Religion forum.

[frenchfan]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/000/983/012/95632033_crop_340x234.jpg?1278082574

Taking into account the accomplishments Tim Tebow managed to achieve at the highest collegiate level of competition, wouldn’t be fair to say that every other player drafted in the 2010 NFL Draft has more to prove than Tebow?

If we are going to use results and success as a measuring stick, it most certainly would.

How does being the most efficient passer in SEC history, while breaking a few dozen other SEC and NCAA records, lend to Tim Tebow's mechanics being an obstacle he needs to overcome? Especially when you consider how Tebow transcended the phenomenal success he possessed in high school to the collegiate level with his unorthodox mechanics.

Why does unorthodox have to equate to being a flaw when the deafening sound of the successful results of the individual player speak otherwise?

Has conventional thinking distinguished opinion rather than results based on performance as a substitute for success?

If success were the result of performance, then why would we allow our opinions to assume otherwise? Especially considering how so many other players have achieved greatness with unorthodox mechanics.

Byron Leftwich was a top 10 quarterback in 2005, the season before he was ultimately benched and replaced by a mobile QB. Last season, Byron managed to be ranked third in the league in TDs and yards combined before he was benched in Game Three after a failed attempt by his coaching staff to force him to play in an obsolete West Coast offensive scheme.

The past two seasons, however, Byron had managed to have only one sack per 28 attempts, a far cry from the top 10 quarterback he is replacing in Pittsburgh. Ben Roethlisberger , with his conventional mechanics, has managed to only have 10 attempts per sack with his average the past two seasons.

In the past four seasons, the future Hall of Famer Roethlisberger has had a sack average of nearly 50 a season. His offensive coordinator last season attributed half of the sacks to being entirely on the quarterback.

Even Eli Manning, with his conventional mechanics, managed to turn the ball over 22 times last season between lost fumbles and interceptions. The past four of five seasons his average rate of turnovers has been 22 per season.

The reason I bring these quarterbacks up is to prove that sacks, turnovers as a result of fumbles, and interceptions are not synonymous with long, unorthodox wind up passes as we are led by the so-called experts.

Phillip Rivers said he has possessed his unorthodox throwing motion since he was a kid.

Rivers has been a top five quarterback the past two seasons.

Rivers was No. 3 in 2009, and No. 1 in 2008

Who hasn't heard of the Legends Jack Nicolas and Brett Favre ?

What do these players have in common? Their unorthodox mechanics.

From Brett's windmill that has the ball go from his knees to the end zone for touchdowns, to...
There is one thing I can't understand... WTF about Tebow's mechanics? If he leads us to SB with that, let it be... What is the most important question is will he make it at the NFL level? And I guess it's the same question for any drafted player... According to what I know, Tebow is a winner, has a great work ethic and behaviour... He can be a leader and his stats in college talk for him... Now, it's not sure he will translate that in the NFL level... But not because of his mechanics IMO.

Let's take an example... John McEnroe was one of the best tennis player of his era... Just look at his technics and mechanics... Any tennis caoch would say you can't play like that... It's impossible to hit the ball accurately and strongly the way he does... But he did and he was superb... I had the chance to see him playing live during an exhibition game... He was incredible... And I don't even talk about his service... IMO he wouldn't have been the player he was if someone told him "change your mechanics because they suck"...

Try to correct Tebow a bit, but let him be the player he is... Teach him how to play at the NFL level and "basta"...
His mechanics? Really, the last thing that worries me about him... I have seen many great and "well mechaniced" college QB failed at the NFL level... So it's just not just about mechanics... But how to handle NFL pressure and level... because you'll meet very good players at every positions... The speed his higher... and so on...

I don't know if Tebow will succeed or not... But oh well... I don't care about his mechanics... BTW, I've heard that his style is close to Steve Young's one... If only he can be as good we'll be blessed...

[TXBRONC]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/000/983/012/95632033_crop_340x234.jpg?1278082574

Taking into account the accomplishments Tim Tebow managed to achieve at the highest collegiate level of competition, wouldn’t be fair to say that every other player drafted in the 2010 NFL Draft has more to prove than Tebow?

If we are going to use results and success as a measuring stick, it most certainly would.

How does being the most efficient passer in SEC history, while breaking a few dozen other SEC and NCAA records, lend to Tim Tebow's mechanics being an obstacle he needs to overcome? Especially when you consider how Tebow transcended the phenomenal success he possessed in high school to the collegiate level with his unorthodox mechanics.

Why does unorthodox have to equate to being a flaw when the deafening sound of the successful results of the individual player speak otherwise?

Has conventional thinking distinguished opinion rather than results based on performance as a substitute for success?

If success were the result of performance, then why would we allow our opinions to assume otherwise? Especially considering how so many other players have achieved greatness with unorthodox mechanics.

Byron Leftwich was a top 10 quarterback in 2005, the season before he was ultimately benched and replaced by a mobile QB. Last season, Byron managed to be ranked third in the league in TDs and yards combined before he was benched in Game Three after a failed attempt by his coaching staff to force him to play in an obsolete West Coast offensive scheme.

The past two seasons, however, Byron had managed to have only one sack per 28 attempts, a far cry from the top 10 quarterback he is replacing in Pittsburgh. Ben Roethlisberger , with his conventional mechanics, has managed to only have 10 attempts per sack with his average the past two seasons.

In the past four seasons, the future Hall of Famer Roethlisberger has had a sack average of nearly 50 a season. His offensive coordinator last season attributed half of the sacks to being entirely on the quarterback.

Even Eli Manning, with his conventional mechanics, managed to turn the ball over 22 times last season between lost fumbles and interceptions. The past four of five seasons his average rate of turnovers has been 22 per season.

The reason I bring these quarterbacks up is to prove that sacks, turnovers as a result of fumbles, and interceptions are not synonymous with long, unorthodox wind up passes as we are led by the so-called experts.

Phillip Rivers said he has possessed his unorthodox throwing motion since he was a kid.

Rivers has been a top five quarterback the past two seasons.

Rivers was No. 3 in 2009, and No. 1 in 2008

Who hasn't heard of the Legends Jack Nicolas and Brett Favre ?

What do these players have in common? Their unorthodox mechanics.

From Brett's windmill that has the ball go from his knees to the end zone for touchdowns, to...

You can follow the link to read the rest of my article if you like... (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/414652-tim-tebows-unorthodox-mechanics-a-prerequisite-for-legendary-success)

No it wouldn't be fair say that every other rookie from this draft class has more to prove than Tebow. It's not about having more or less to prove than anyone else because all rookies have to prove they are worthy to play in this League if they don't they're gone regardless of where they were picked.

The bar is set high for Tebow not so much because of his accomplishments in college but because he was 25th overall pick in the 2010 draft. He'll get little extra time to develop not because he won two national championships and Heisman Trophy but because of fact that he went in the first round.

If he doesn't have a picture perfect delivery I wont care as long as he is successful and Denver is winning ball games.

[GGMoogly]

I had some free time today, so I watched Tim Tebow highlights on YouTube.

:eek: and might I add :whoo:

There are some days I wake up and I can't believe we got this guy. And just about every day, I can't believe EVERYONE on this board isn't peeing in their pants with excitement about him! I've been obsessed with football for 45 years and I refuse to accept I could be this wrong about a player. Tebow isn't some one-year wonder/combine freak, folks, this is the man MANY (i.e., people smarter than me) have argued to be the greatest college QB of all time! A winner on all levels and in the biggest games...superior statistics against the top defenses...a tough, hard-nosed competitor who hates to lose...I'M JUMPIN' OUTTA MY SKIN, HERE!!!

I was seriously excited when the Broncs traded for Elway, but this kid comes with credentials that John lacked - CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!

As the Caesar Palace sports book and this bottle of Alaskan Amber are my witnesses...I swear, this kid is going to be not just good, but GREAT!

[Jagsbch]

Well Jags just don't be surprised when it moved to the Religion forum.

Thats fine, I mean if covering a guy slinging a gun or being a drug attic is a welcomed standard here, while a guy actually trying to motivate people, inspire our youth to greater heights by sharing his passions and beliefs is not welcome here then fine. Sobeit.

I find nothing offensive about me wanting to share Tebow being interviewed, no matter who the interviewer was.

One of my assignments as Featured Columnist @ B/R is to cover Tim Tebow.

Tim Tebow getting the "key to the city" and raising money for charities during his down time reflects the standard and leadership role he is impressing upon the league, despite the fact that he is a green horn.

While most players are out there partying their tales off celebrating the Independance Day Festivities, Tebow is hard at work in his philanthropy mission traveling from state to state to raise awareness for humanitarian causes as well as spiritual.

Tim Tebow was a gust speaker yesterday in Georgia, I managed to catch his act on the WWW.

The event was filled with pomp and circumstance honoring God, Country as well as our Soldiers who hold the line of Liberty from the tyranny of oppression having its way with it.

I was touched hearing Tebow remark on how his passion is the driving force in his life, and how he uses it to plow through the obstacles he faces in life. His remarks regarding how he does not know what the future holds, but he knows the one who holds his future in his hands blew my mind.

I am honored to possess the opportunity to over someone who actually brings a qualities of a champion to the sport for our Kids to look up to and admire rather than be ashamed of.

In a time where the NFL has been tainted by gun slinging thugs and drug addicts, it is refreshing to see the breath of fresh air Tebow brings not only for our children to look up and aspire too be like, but adults as well.

Seeing Tebow use his tremendous talents and unique gifts to enhance the world rather than dishonorably taking advantage of it, while corrupting the asperations of our youth, inspired me to take my passions to the next level in covering him.

By the looks of Dwight Freeneys comments, I am not the only one who is passionately inspired by Tim Tebow. This guy has a way to stoke and challange everyone associated with him to greater heights.

[Ravage!!!]

Leinert had just as many Championships. Manning had none. Favre had none. Elway had none. Young had none. Brady had none, Brees had none.... and we know I can go on and on.

Right now, Tebow's mechanics are just the minute problems. But there is a lot more than that that concerns me. Much more. HOW he throws the ball doesn't matter (as far as delivery goes).

Its everything else. Its the fact that he never took snaps under center. Never had to read defenses. Was never known as a good passing QB... and... because so much is expected of him.

Matt Leinert won two national Championships as well. Left Handed, and was drafted higher than Tebow was. But because of all the expectations, the unbelievable fan base that developed in florida, ALLLLL the draft picks that were given up, the first round pick choice, and the fact that we just traded FOR a QB, only to then turn around and draft another one. All these things add up to the expectations of being HIGH for Tebow. A lot of hype and one hell of a lot of expectations.

His mechanics are bad.... and he knew they were (especially after all the draft talk after his junior year)... and NEVER took the time to work on it during his offseasons. This from the guy that supposedly has a "More desire to win and succeed" than everyone else. He said he would work to change that, had the time, and never did.

So now its about everything else. I don't care if he spits the ball from his teeth, if its what works for him....as long as it works.

[TXBRONC]

I might add that being unorthodox isn't problematic unless it affects his accuracy or it causes him to have a slow delivery, then you has to change if he's going be successful imho.

[Slick]

Of course he's never had to read NFL defenses Rav, but to say he's never had to read a defense at all is a bit much isn't it?

All QB's have to survey the field and find an open guy at any level. ...and I'll add that he's faced some pretty tough SEC defenses.

[Nomad]

Of course he's never had to read NFL defenses Rav, but to say he's never had to read a defense at all is a bit much isn't it?

All QB's have to survey the field and find an open guy at any level. ...and I'll add that he's faced some pretty tough SEC defenses.

SEC:salute:!!

Did BF hire a fulltime person to cover everything Tebow??:coffee: We'll just have to see if his college success can transfer to the NFL....I hope for the BRONCOS sake!

[T.K.O.]

Again, you flail your arms like a toddler and miss the overall point. You can have 53 nice guys and thats all swell and sweet McFly.But in the end its about winning and thats all i am as a fan concerned with. Sure, i dont think having scumbags is the answer as it usually isnt but if Tebow and company fail at winning it wont matter how nice they were. People can buy all the Tebow jersey's they want but i just want to win, everything else is irrelevant for me as a Bronco fan unless this team is winning.

this is the portion of your post i was responding to.you have every right to hold this POV ,but i certainly dont agree with it.
i was merely pointing out that many fans would probably not agree with this.
if the broncos signed vick ,stallworth,oj simpson ,clarett,travis henry and big ben. and we went to the superbowl.i dont think it would be as enjoyable as if we went there with tebow(or orton)and the crew being assembled in denver now.
sure a part of me would be happy to see the team get there again.but a bigger part would be embarrassed by the players we had on the team.:salute:

[Lonestar]

Of course he's never had to read NFL defenses Rav, but to say he's never had to read a defense at all is a bit much isn't it?

All QB's have to survey the field and find an open guy at any level. ...and I'll add that he's faced some pretty tough SEC defenses.

While I did not read that post. Some folks wre so in love with jay they are not realsitic.

They championed the SEC. defenses when he was drafted. But now the SEC.is crap that TEBOW winning hug there for all his career is bad yet jay was a loser and he was the shits.

If Tim had a cannon arm most of these folks would be all over him. Well maybe not those still on jays jock.

Does Tim have some issues to overcome sure.

The speed of the game. Instead of having to beat one maybe two weaklinks on a defense in the SEC. (Unlike maybe 4-6 in most other conferences) now in the NFL all the players are quality. But he seemed to do it with ease as a gator.

IIRC he has set many many NCAA records.

Unless he is a real dummy he is more athletic than any QB ever coming out of college (maybe not but one of the top) he should be able to overcome most other (scouting or jouraltist) defencies.

Is he the perfect QB nope but other than Peyton not sure I can remember since John and Dan. All college QB's have had some warts.
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[TXBRONC]

this is the portion of your post i was responding to.you have every right to hold this POV ,but i certainly dont agree with it.
i was merely pointing out that many fans would probably not agree with this.
if the broncos signed vick ,stallworth,oj simpson and big ben. and we went to the superbowl.i dont think it would be as enjoyable as if we went there with tebow(or orton)and the crew being assembled in denver now.
sure a part of me would be happy to see the team get there again.but a bigger part would be embarrassed by the players we had on the team.:salute:

And there are a lot of fans that probably agree with North. If you wouldn't find it as enjoyable for Denver to win the Super Bowl with guys like the ones you listed well that's your prerogative. Didn't you say you root for the team and not individual players? :confused: I'm pretty sure you said something very close that. Personally I agree with North because I root for the TEAM. I didn't particularly care for Bill Romanowski when played for the 49er, Eagles, and Raiders but I rooted for the Broncos wasn't at all embarrassed by them winning. Btw were you embarrassed when Romanowski spit in J.J. Stokes' face in '97? Did it take the luster off of the Broncos first Super Bowl win in team history?

[Ravage!!!]

Of course he's never had to read NFL defenses Rav, but to say he's never had to read a defense at all is a bit much isn't it?

All QB's have to survey the field and find an open guy at any level. ...and I'll add that he's faced some pretty tough SEC defenses.

Its pretty well known that his offensive scheme did not require him to really 'read' defenses. He stayed in shot gun the entire time, and did a pre-snap this or that.

I'm not saying that he doesn't have talent..because we all can see the athletic ability the kid has. But all players going in the first round have athletic talent. All had to "find the open guy." Don't we do that in HS football? Doesn't mean I consider the HS QBs reading defenses. Big time difference.

The difference from the SEC defenses and the NFL defenses, as you well know Slick, is that the NFL defenses will absolutely be able to take away the run. Unlike SEC defenses that might have 2-4 NFL caliber players on it (on good teams)... every one of these guys he plays against is the best player of the other team in college.

I dont' hide that I'm skeptical of Tebow EVER reaching the hype that has surrounded him. I feel that he has a very high uphill battle. I'm not worried about his mechanics, I'm concerned about everything else. His ability to read defenses is one of the top things for many reasons.

[Ravage!!!]

this is the portion of your post i was responding to.you have every right to hold this POV ,but i certainly dont agree with it.
i was merely pointing out that many fans would probably not agree with this.
if the broncos signed vick ,stallworth,oj simpson ,clarett,travis henry and big ben. and we went to the superbowl.i dont think it would be as enjoyable as if we went there with tebow(or orton)and the crew being assembled in denver now.
sure a part of me would be happy to see the team get there again.but a bigger part would be embarrassed by the players we had on the team.:salute:

Winning the SB with those guys would be JUST as enjoyable for me as winning with the ones you listed, because its still WINNING the Super Bowl. I've NEVER EVER EVER seen anyone try to say "Yeah, you won the Super Bowl with ______ on your team, so thats not as good as the Super Bowl ring with ______ on the team"... EVER.

[Lonestar]

this is the portion of your post i was responding to.you have every right to hold this POV ,but i certainly dont agree with it.
i was merely pointing out that many fans would probably not agree with this.
if the broncos signed vick ,stallworth,oj simpson ,clarett,travis henry and big ben. and we went to the superbowl.i dont think it would be as enjoyable as if we went there with tebow(or orton)and the crew being assembled in denver now.
sure a part of me would be happy to see the team get there again.but a bigger part would be embarrassed by the players we had on the team.:salute:

Even the KING of "Winning is the only thing" -Lombardi

Had quality TEAM players on his team and make no mistake about it they did it his way long before he was a championship winning coach. Is Josh Lombardi probably not but if he is close that works for me.

I used to marvel at the talent we drafted back in the 60's but after the 3rd game or so every one in the stands understood while they were upgrades the chefs, faiders and bolts did better.

The concensus was wait till next year.
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[TXBRONC]

Funny, I'm pretty sure that most of nucleus of the Packers dynasty was actually drafted by Lombardi's predecessor.

Have you ever heard of Paul Hornung? He was suspended for an entire season for betting on football games and yet Lombardi didn't send him packing. :confused:

[Ravage!!!]

Funny, I'm pretty sure that most of nucleus of the Packers dynasty was actually drafted by Lombardi's predecessor.

Have you ever heard of Paul Hornung? He was suspended for an entire season for betting on football games and yet Lombardi didn't send him packing. :confused:

People want to remember the good, and bend history to fit what they want to remember. Lombardi coached in a different time. The players didn't get paid huge contracts and the media didn't follow their every move and report every time they sneezed.

The players back then were not angels. If they weren't, the team knew it, and the media kept it to themselves. If they could play, they stayed on the team.... period.

[T.K.O.]

like i said...to each his/her own on the subject .and yes i was embarrassed by romo spitting at stokes (especially when everyone was saying it was racially motivated) .
and yes i would be less impressed with a superbowl title if say....the team had knowingly cheated to get there etc...
like i said there is really nothing to debate here,some dont care how or with whom the team wins....others do.
no big deal

[Lonestar]

this is the portion of your post i was responding to.you have every right to hold this POV ,but i certainly dont agree with it.
i was merely pointing out that many fans would probably not agree with this.
if the broncos signed vick ,stallworth,oj simpson ,clarett,travis henry and big ben. and we went to the superbowl.i dont think it would be as enjoyable as if we went there with tebow(or orton)and the crew being assembled in denver now.
sure a part of me would be happy to see the team get there again.but a bigger part would be embarrassed by the players we had on the team.:salute:

Even the KING of "Winning is the only thing" -Lombardi

Had quality TEAM players on his team and make no mistake about it they did it his way long before he was a championship winning coach. Is Josh Lombardi probably not but if he is close that works for me.

I used to marvel at the talent we drafted back in the 60's but after the 3rd game or so every one in the stands understood while they were upgrades the chefs, faiders and bolts did better.

The concensus was wait till next year.
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[TXBRONC]

like i said...to each his/her own on the subject .and yes i was embarrassed by romo spitting at stokes (especially when everyone was saying it was racially motivated) .
and yes i would be less impressed with a superbowl title if say....the team had knowingly cheated to get there etc...
like i said there is really nothing to debate here,some dont care how or with whom the team wins....others do.
no big deal

I can't recall you ever saying that you're embarrassed that the Broncos won the Super Bowl in '97. :confused:

Why are changing the subject? You said that you would be embarrassed if we had "bad apple" kind players like Vick and Stallworth. You didn't say anything about cheating? Besides that bringing in those kind players doesn't mean Denver is cheating. How will your Bronco piety ever hold up if McDaniels brings in player with a checkered past? Oh wait I think one of drafted defensive backs has a checked past. I think it's Cox if I'm mistaken.

[TXBRONC]

People want to remember the good, and bend history to fit what they want to remember. Lombardi coached in a different time. The players didn't get paid huge contracts and the media didn't follow their every move and report every time they sneezed.

The players back then were not angels. If they weren't, the team knew it, and the media kept it to themselves. If they could play, they stayed on the team.... period.

Hornung was a rebel but Lombardi put up with him because he was excellent player.

[T.K.O.]

I can't recall you ever saying that you're embarrassed that the Broncos won the Super Bowl '97. :confused:

Why are changing the subject? You said that you would be embarrassed if we had "bad apple" kind players like Vick and Stallworth. You didn't say anything about cheating? Besides that bringing in those kind players doesn't mean Denver is cheating. How will your Bronco piety ever hold up if McDaniels brings in player with a checkered past? Oh wait I think one of drafted defensive backs has a checked past. I think it's Cox if I'm mistaken.

the "subject" was winning is the most important thing.as i qouted in my initial post.why are YOU changing the subject?
if you insist on attempting to defy my every post at least do your research first.
now as i stated...I would prefer to win with a team of good guys who are over-acheiving hard workers than with men of questionable character.
and mnorth said he could care less ....it's all about winning period.
i dissagree. thats all.get over it
and crunchy peanut butter is way better than creamy....so now what.
you gonna try and prove that wrong ?
good luck

[Northman]

I understand TKO's concern. Its the same one i had with Marshall. In this day and age bad behavior could mean less time on the field. But, despite my dislike for Romo's behavior it never cost Denver with playing time because the rules that are now in place didnt apply then. And im not going to be upset or sad that we won championships with some sketchy character guys. And im sure that Dallas, NY Giants, etc arent going to care much about guys like Irvin and Taylor who were less than stellar in their own right. Unfortuantely, not every team is going to have a Peyton Manning who is squeeky clean (even though Marvin Harrison had some issue with guns not too long ago). I have zero problems with a guy with great character like Tim Tebow. But if it doesnt translate to wins and SB rings than it wont matter in the long run how nice he was.

[Nomad]

and crunchy peanut butter is way better than creamy....so now what.


Petter Pan Creamy...THE BEST!:eating:

[TXBRONC]

the "subject" was winning is the most important thing.as i qouted in my initial post.why are YOU changing the subject?
if you insist on attempting to defy my every post at least do your research first.
now as i stated...I would prefer to win with a team of good guys who are over-acheiving hard workers than with men of questionable character.
and mnorth said he could care less ....it's all about winning period.
i dissagree. thats all.get over it
and crunchy peanut butter is way better than creamy....so now what.
you gonna try and prove that wrong ?
good luck

Get over yourself. I did follow the conversation and North didn't say a damn thing about cheating and neither did you. I'm defying your every post, I'm point out two things:

1.) Your pietistic posts about being embarrassed by low character players helping Denver win a Super Bowl doesn't jive with what you have said and not said int the past.

2.) You changed course and starting taking about cheating which had nothing to do with what North or I said.

Btw why would I argue with you about crunching peanut butter since I like it better than creamy? :lol:

[Lonestar]

the "subject" was winning is the most important thing.as i qouted in my initial post.why are YOU changing the subject?
if you insist on attempting to defy my every post at least do your research first.
now as i stated...I would prefer to win with a team of good guys who are over-acheiving hard workers than with men of questionable character.
and mnorth said he could care less ....it's all about winning period.
i dissagree. thats all.get over it
and crunchy peanut butter is way better than creamy....so now what.
you gonna try and prove that wrong ?
good luck

Good post and even ~hough I don't see the posys they have made.

The facts are some would rather win at any cost with thugs, ME players and overpriced players than with TEAM players.

Pro blow players hav not got us anything but heartache the past 11-13 years.

So how about the TEAM wins and becuase of that we all win.

Do not let the naysayers get you down.

:salute:
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[T.K.O.]

Petter Pan Creamy...THE BEST!:eating:

creamy peter pan is for sissy's. real men (the ones who win championships) eat crunchy....or even "super crunchy":laugh:

[TXBRONC]

I understand TKO's concern. Its the same one i had with Marshall. In this day and age bad behavior could mean less time on the field. But, despite my dislike for Romo's behavior it never cost Denver with playing time because the rules that are now in place didnt apply then. And im not going to be upset or sad that we won championships with some sketchy character guys. And im sure that Dallas, NY Giants, etc arent going to care much about guys like Irvin and Taylor who were less than stellar in their own right. Unfortuantely, not every team is going to have a Peyton Manning who is squeeky clean (even though Marvin Harrison had some issue with guns not too long ago). I have zero problems with a guy with great character like Tim Tebow. But if it doesnt translate to wins and SB rings than it wont matter in the long run how nice he was.

I understand that players with a checkered past present certain challenges but mean it has anything to do with cheating. Like you I thought Romo's behavior was despicable at the time but it in no way takes anything away from that first title. If solid veteran leadership in locker room are in place guys who are questionable can be kept in line.

[Tned]

While I did not read that post. Some folks wre so in love with jay they are not realsitic.

They championed the SEC. defenses when he was drafted. But now the SEC.is crap that TEBOW winning hug there for all his career is bad yet jay was a loser and he was the shits.

If Tim had a cannon arm most of these folks would be all over him. Well maybe not those still on jays jock.

Does Tim have some issues to overcome sure.

The speed of the game. Instead of having to beat one maybe two weaklinks on a defense in the SEC. (Unlike maybe 4-6 in most other conferences) now in the NFL all the players are quality. But he seemed to do it with ease as a gator.

IIRC he has set many many NCAA records.

Unless he is a real dummy he is more athletic than any QB ever coming out of college (maybe not but one of the top) he should be able to overcome most other (scouting or jouraltist) defencies.

Is he the perfect QB nope but other than Peyton not sure I can remember since John and Dan. All college QB's have had some warts.
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I'm not sure I have ever seen someone so fascinated with Jay's jock. It's kind of creepy, actually. :eek: :confused:

You do realize that one of the guys you battle with the most, North, was on the Josh side of all of the "Jay traded" debates. Right? You do remember that? Correct? Just want to make sure, since I don't understand how his criticism of Josh can be tied to Jay's jock or nutsack, since North didn't become critical of Josh until after the '09 season ended.

[T.K.O.]

here are a couple of my posts explaining my thoughts on the matter.as for the "cheating "aspect.i was just saying that the "i dont care as long as we win" mentality is bogus.look at what pat's fans have had to and will continue to endure when a large # of rival fans see their titles as somehow "tainted"
valid or not their win over the rams will be viewed as questionableby many because of the "spygate" accusations.would the typical pats fan prefer that were never a question....i would think so.i remember when there was alot of chatter about stripping N.E. title when that story broke.
so i'm saying that some victories can be less enjoyable depending on the circumstances and players involved.
but at least we can all agree on the "crunchy" pb thing !:laugh:





i understand the desire for the team to win....but win at any cost?
i don't think you (or any fan) truly believes that as long as the team wins,you dont care how.
i think fans want to be able to back the team not only because they are winners but also because they are the good guys,the underdogs,the scrappy bunch that nobody gave a chance....ala the 97' broncos etc...
there is no way i believe that a fan could be just as proud of a team filled with deadbeat dads,ex-cons and juice junkies who win than if they were decent hard working over acheivers.
not saying any team is gonna be filled with only good guys....bnut i for one would prefer to root for such a team.
good guys can be badasses too.....ask chuck norris ....or tim tebow;)

[spikerman]

Having "team" players and nice guys is great, but at some point McDaniels will have to stop trading talent for loyal soldiers. Hell, I'm a nice guy and a team player too, but the Broncos wouldn't be winning any games with me out there.

[T.K.O.]

i don't think there is any real connection between having "bad" guys and winning.
there seems to be a false assumption that players who have alot of off-field problems are somehow "better" than those who do not.
for every ben rapistburger or T.O. there are many elway,manning,brees,montana,young and rice' stories.
i think you have an equal chance (if not better) building a team with "good" guys than you have with trouble makers.
NO team will ever be comprised of angels....and i am sure the broncos F.O. is well aware of that.
but if you are rebuilding a team i really see nothing wrong with trying to fill the roster with quality guys that are more focused on football and winning as a complete team than partying and making headlines:salute:

[Tned]

i don't think there is any real connection between having "bad" guys and winning.
there seems to be a false assumption that players who have alot of off-field problems are somehow "better" than those who do not.
for every ben rapistburger or T.O. there are many elway,manning,brees,montana,young and rice' stories.
i think you have an equal chance (if not better) building a team with "good" guys than you have with trouble makers.
NO team will ever be comprised of angels....and i am sure the broncos F.O. is well aware of that.
but if you are rebuilding a team i really see nothing wrong with trying to fill the roster with quality guys that are more focused on football and winning as a complete team than partying and making headlines:salute:

I think you miss the point of what most are saying on this subject. It isn't that "bad" guys are better players. Instead, it's that "good" guys aren't always better or give the team a better chance to win. What some of us are saying is that it's better to have the best players on the team, not the best "people" on the team.

I think all of us would love to have a "winning" team that had nothing but the most high character guys on it, but the fact is there is no evidence that a team is more likely to win by ONLY drafting and signing high character guys.

Anyway, that's the point. It's not that "bad" guys perform better, it's that we want the best players on the team and don't care if they are altar boy types.

[T.K.O.]

I think you miss the point of what most are saying on this subject. It isn't that "bad" guys are better players. Instead, it's that "good" guys aren't always better or give the team a better chance to win. What some of us are saying is that it's better to have the best players on the team, not the best "people" on the team.

I think all of us would love to have a "winning" team that had nothing but the most high character guys on it, but the fact is there is no evidence that a team is more likely to win by ONLY drafting and signing high character guys.

Anyway, that's the point. It's not that "bad" guys perform better, it's that we want the best players on the team and don't care if they are altar boy types.

i agree...i dont want a whole bunch of alter boys either (as i'm not in the priesthood):laugh: too far?
but i also have seen how "off-field actions" can bring about "on-field distractions"
and i agree with what mcD said about keeping the focus on football and how important he thinks it is to the teams success.
so while we can all agree that it's possible to win with either type of player.
having higher character guys does have benefits that are exclusive to that type of player,where there is no proof that this is true with poor character guys.
just a thought:confused:

[Tned]

i agree...i dont want a whole bunch of alter boys either (as i'm not in the priesthood):laugh: too far?
but i also have seen how "off-field actions" can bring about "on-field distractions"
and i agree with what mcD said about keeping the focus on football and how important he thinks it is to the teams success.
so while we can all agree that it's possible to win with either type of player.
having higher character guys does have benefits that are exclusive to that type of player,where there is no proof that this is true with poor character guys.
just a thought:confused:

I wouldn't disagree with any of what you say. If talent is equal, a high character guy is going to bring more to the team than a low character guy.

Going back to my main point. I think your assumption that anyone is saying that we need to bring in bad guys, because they play better is incorrect. At least I haven't seen that point being made. Instead, what I have seen is that if you have two guys, one with grade A talent who has some 'potential' baggage, and one is a grade C talent and is squeaky clean, that if you always go for the grade C altar boy, you won't have many off field distractions, but you also aren't going to have many wins.

[T.K.O.]

I wouldn't disagree with any of what you say. If talent is equal, a high character guy is going to bring more to the team than a low character guy.

Going back to my main point. I think your assumption that anyone is saying that we need to bring in bad guys, because they play better is incorrect. At least I haven't seen that point being made. Instead, what I have seen is that if you have two guys, one with grade A talent who has some 'potential' baggage, and one is a grade C talent and is squeaky clean, that if you always go for the grade C altar boy, you won't have many off field distractions, but you also aren't going to have many wins.

agreed,but in my opinion we have only seen 1 grade "A" talent shipped out.
and that was marshall.the rest had shown flashes of brilliance .but lacked the consistancy to get the team to the playoffs or beyond.
so i am content to let the new crew give it their best shot.
and if the only headlines coming from the broncos this offseason are about who's pushing who for the starting roster spots ....i'll be happy !

[Slick]

Its pretty well known that his offensive scheme did not require him to really 'read' defenses. He stayed in shot gun the entire time, and did a pre-snap this or that.

I'm not saying that he doesn't have talent..because we all can see the athletic ability the kid has. But all players going in the first round have athletic talent. All had to "find the open guy." Don't we do that in HS football? Doesn't mean I consider the HS QBs reading defenses. Big time difference.

The difference from the SEC defenses and the NFL defenses, as you well know Slick, is that the NFL defenses will absolutely be able to take away the run. Unlike SEC defenses that might have 2-4 NFL caliber players on it (on good teams)... every one of these guys he plays against is the best player of the other team in college.

I dont' hide that I'm skeptical of Tebow EVER reaching the hype that has surrounded him. I feel that he has a very high uphill battle. I'm not worried about his mechanics, I'm concerned about everything else. His ability to read defenses is one of the top things for many reasons.

I picked that one point out of your initial post because it is the only part of it that I mildly disagreed with.

He still had to see if he had man to man coverage, if the safeties were back, if he had a mismatch at the line of scrimmage, things like that.

It almost sounded like you think Josh will have to teach him how to play football all over again and I don't think that's the case.

I can't disagree with your skepticism because I am too, to a point. I still think the kid is a gamer and can succeed.

...and I agree that Meyer put him in a system that made it easier on him. He gave him a couple of targets to look at, and if those weren't there, he took of running which he'll do a lot less of in the NFL.

I don't mean to act like Tebow's defense attorney if I come off that way.

[T.K.O.]

tebow needs no defense !;)

[spikerman]

tebow needs no defense !;)

Good thing because if recent years are any indication (excluding the 1st 6 games last year) that's pretty close to what he's going to get. :)

[Tned]

agreed,but in my opinion we have only seen 1 grade "A" talent shipped out.
and that was marshall.the rest had shown flashes of brilliance .but lacked the consistancy to get the team to the playoffs or beyond.
so i am content to let the new crew give it their best shot.
and if the only headlines coming from the broncos this offseason are about who's pushing who for the starting roster spots ....i'll be happy !

While much gets lost in the flood of "here comes the haters" and other nonsense, the reality is that almost everyone is taking a wait and see approach. Yes, some are critical of some moves, but isn't that the whole reason we have message boards? To discuss our opinions of issues/topics?

Just because someone questions or criticizes a move (like say how things went down with Marshall) doesn't mean they aren't taking a wait and see approach or hoping for the best.

For instance, I think McDaniels handled the Jay thing badly, but got good value for him. I thought it was a mistake to trade for him, but was glad he got two firsts, plus a QB. Then, I was pissed that he blew a first rounder on Smith, because I felt he should use those firsts to get a new starting QB.

I, like most of the ex-players and coaches on TV, had a problem with how he handled Marshall in week 17, but for me it was for a pragmatic, not emotional, reason. I figured Marshall being traded was a foregone conclusion, so going public with the fact he believed Marshall was lying about his injury simply hurts his value in the offseason. There was zero upside to it. If you planned to keep him, then maybe I could see trying to tear him down, to teach him a lesson for the future (I think even that's a reach), but since it's clear you are trading him, then it only hurts his trade value.

Then we have the Tebow thing. Some, even those that supported McDaniels when he traded Jay, were critical of drafting Tebow. I loved the move. I don't see Orton as a long term solution, and that has nothing to do with hating Josh or wanting to suck Jay's nutsack (as some on here would claim), it has to do with not thinking Orton is a long term solution. The very reason he was traded WITH two first round picks for Jay. So, getting a young QB that Josh thinks could be a long term solution was a great move in my book.

The point of all this rambling is that some people on here are quick to stereotype people into this very simplistic Josh lover or Josh hater groups, but it just doesn't pass muster. It just isn't that simple.

Northman is being ragged on as a Josh hater and Jay lover, which is a joke, since for the first 8 months after Jay was traded he did nothing but support McDaniels, including with all the Marshall crap last offseason. So, for people to now try and disregard his posts as a Josh hater, or mikey lover or some other nonsense, is just that, nonsense.

I, like the vast majority of people on BF, get sick of every discussion turning into a "you're just a hater" BS fest.

/Rant

[Tned]

...and I agree that Meyer put him in a system that made it easier on him. He gave him a couple of targets to look at, and if those weren't there, he took of running which he'll do a lot less of in the NFL.

I don't mean to act like Tebow's defense attorney if I come off that way.

A good NFL HC builds an offense (or defense) to suit the players he has, especially the star or impact players.

Now, granted he can't run as much as he did in college, but McDaniels can take advantage of his ability to move. Create moving/rolling pockets, misdirection plays. Designed QB runs, etc. Make the defense worried enough about his mobility that they have to dedicated a SPY or create other containment schemes, which creates more open receivers or less pressure on the QB.

[Slick]

A good NFL HC builds an offense (or defense) to suit the players he has, especially the star or impact players.

Now, granted he can't run as much as he did in college, but McDaniels can take advantage of his ability to move. Create moving/rolling pockets, misdirection plays. Designed QB runs, etc. Make the defense worried enough about his mobility that they have to dedicated a SPY or create other containment schemes, which creates more open receivers or less pressure on the QB.

Completely agree, and I hope Josh does just that. His mobility will be key. If Josh didn't have plans along those lines I think he would have drafted Claussen.

[TXBRONC]

A good NFL HC builds an offense (or defense) to suit the players he has, especially the star or impact players.

Now, granted he can't run as much as he did in college, but McDaniels can take advantage of his ability to move. Create moving/rolling pockets, misdirection plays. Designed QB runs, etc. Make the defense worried enough about his mobility that they have to dedicated a SPY or create other containment schemes, which creates more open receivers or less pressure on the QB.

It's possible that if Tebow turns into a good maybe even a great quarterback he could make McDaniels offense even better. Brady is clearly one of the best quarterbacks in the game but he's not the most mobile of quarterbacks either so designing quarterback runs isn't something that New England is going to do.

[Tned]

It's possible that if Tebow turns into a good maybe even a great quarterback he could make McDaniels offense even better. Brady is clearly one of the best quarterbacks in the game but he's not the most mobile of quarterbacks either so designing quarterback runs isn't something that New England is going to do.

Brady isn't mobile, but what he is good at is moving away from pressure, even if to do nothing more than buy time to throw the ball away and avoid the sack. But, yea, I agree, he's not a QB to design QB 'movement' plays around.


Completely agree, and I hope Josh does just that. His mobility will be key. If Josh didn't have plans along those lines I think he would have drafted Claussen.

I'll be very surprised if McDaniels doesn't have at least some plays designed to take advantage of his mobility. Like you, I'm guessing that's one f the things McDaniels liked about him and wanted to exploit in his play calling.

[TXBRONC]

here are a couple of my posts explaining my thoughts on the matter.as for the "cheating "aspect.i was just saying that the "i dont care as long as we win" mentality is bogus.look at what pat's fans have had to and will continue to endure when a large # of rival fans see their titles as somehow "tainted"
valid or not their win over the rams will be viewed as questionableby many because of the "spygate" accusations.would the typical pats fan prefer that were never a question....i would think so.i remember when there was alot of chatter about stripping N.E. title when that story broke.
so i'm saying that some victories can be less enjoyable depending on the circumstances and players involved.
but at least we can all agree on the "crunchy" pb thing !:laugh:

Actually T.K.O having listened to guys like WTE I kind of doubt that most Patriot fans even care. For any rival fan to say that their titles are tainted is pure bluster. There is no way to prove it so it's just talk. Quite honestly it doesn't get mentioned that much anymore because it's a dead issue. If I was fan of the Patriots I would tell opposing fans to get bent if they wanted talk smack the titles. Btw there was some criticism that Denver played a little fast and loose with cap in '97 and '98 but who cares because Denver won those titles fair and square.

[T.K.O.]

While much gets lost in the flood of "here comes the haters" and other nonsense, the reality is that almost everyone is taking a wait and see approach. Yes, some are critical of some moves, but isn't that the whole reason we have message boards? To discuss our opinions of issues/topics?

Just because someone questions or criticizes a move (like say how things went down with Marshall) doesn't mean they aren't taking a wait and see approach or hoping for the best.

For instance, I think McDaniels handled the Jay thing badly, but got good value for him. I thought it was a mistake to trade for him, but was glad he got two firsts, plus a QB. Then, I was pissed that he blew a first rounder on Smith, because I felt he should use those firsts to get a new starting QB.

I, like most of the ex-players and coaches on TV, had a problem with how he handled Marshall in week 17, but for me it was for a pragmatic, not emotional, reason. I figured Marshall being traded was a foregone conclusion, so going public with the fact he believed Marshall was lying about his injury simply hurts his value in the offseason. There was zero upside to it. If you planned to keep him, then maybe I could see trying to tear him down, to teach him a lesson for the future (I think even that's a reach), but since it's clear you are trading him, then it only hurts his trade value.

Then we have the Tebow thing. Some, even those that supported McDaniels when he traded Jay, were critical of drafting Tebow. I loved the move. I don't see Orton as a long term solution, and that has nothing to do with hating Josh or wanting to suck Jay's nutsack (as some on here would claim), it has to do with not thinking Orton is a long term solution. The very reason he was traded WITH two first round picks for Jay. So, getting a young QB that Josh thinks could be a long term solution was a great move in my book.

The point of all this rambling is that some people on here are quick to stereotype people into this very simplistic Josh lover or Josh hater groups, but it just doesn't pass muster. It just isn't that simple.

Northman is being ragged on as a Josh hater and Jay lover, which is a joke, since for the first 8 months after Jay was traded he did nothing but support McDaniels, including with all the Marshall crap last offseason. So, for people to now try and disregard his posts as a Josh hater, or mikey lover or some other nonsense, is just that, nonsense.

I, like the vast majority of people on BF, get sick of every discussion turning into a "you're just a hater" BS fest.

/Rant

fair enough....and for the record ,i don't think i have called anyone a "Josh hater" or a "jay/mikey lover"
i understand what you are saying and i have always tried to voice my opinions without belittling that of others...maybe not to perfection as i am susceptible to emotion just like anyone else.
i will tell you that one of the major draws of this site when i came aboard was the sense of community and respect i witnessed,and the lack of "clique-ish" behavior.
i really hope the tension that i have been seeing and feeling here lately is born more from the bordom that comes with the offseason ,than a growing divide in what was a very comfortable and fun-loving place.
and though i do get tired of some posters who seem to find fault in almost every move made or article written by and about the broncos,
i have no problem with people who think differently than i do.

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking." -
-- George Patton

but i will always defend my position and the right to have it....T.K.O.

[Lonestar]

I'm not sure I have ever seen someone so fascinated with Jay's jock. It's kind of creepy, actually. :eek: :confused:

You do realize that one of the guys you battle with the most, North, was on the Josh side of all of the "Jay traded" debates. Right? You do remember that? Correct? Just want to make sure, since I don't understand how his criticism of Josh can be tied to Jay's jock or nutsack, since North didn't become critical of Josh until after the '09 season ended.

I'm not the riding it so your witty comments do not apply. But good try to embarass me.

As for north he was not mentioned specailly as a jock rider so wrong again.

But I'll give you a E for effort just like they do in schools to encourage kiddies to do better.

Frankly if north was unhappy after the season was over I do not know why. Thought he was wiser than that.
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[spikerman]

Frankly if north was unhappy after the season was over I do not know why. Thought he was wiser than that.
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Hey Jr, I know this post wasn't addressed to me, but I did have a question about your comment. What would be wrong with somebody being unhappy when the season was over? I was EXTREMELY unhappy, especially after I realized that over the last 10 games of the season, only Detroit had a worse record. Frankly, I'm amazed that anybody was encouraged when the season ended, especially when it appeared that the team put out little effort in the last game.

[T.K.O.]

Actually T.K.O having listened to guys like WTE I kind of doubt that most Patriot fans even care. For any rival fan to say that their titles are tainted is pure bluster. There is no way to prove it so it's just talk. Quite honestly it doesn't get mentioned that much anymore because it's a dead issue. If I was fan of the Patriots I would tell opposing fans to get bent if they wanted talk smack the titles. Btw there was some Denver played a little fast and loose with cap in '97 and '98 but who cares because Denver won those titles fair and square.

oh i agree that they still enjoyed and are enjoying the success,but would they have preffered that the team had not been accused of illegally video taping the other teams practices? you bet
and actually i never heard about the cap stuff until years after the broncos won...so it didnt have as much impact.now if the entire year after we won the 1st one had been shrouded in theories of cheating...yes i think it would have been much less enjoyable for me and many fans who had waited sooooooo long and loved the win soooooooo much !:D

[Tned]

I'm not the riding it so your witty comments do not apply. But good try to embarass me.

As for north he was not mentioned specailly as a jock rider so wrong again.

But I'll give you a E for effort just like they do in schools to encourage kiddies to do better.

Frankly if north was unhappy after the season was over I do not know why. Thought he was wiser than that.
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Maybe rather than constantly belittling him (like now calling him not smart) or the other little digs you take at him, you should just ask him, rather than ASSume why he has issues with some of McDaniel's recent decisions.

As to Jay's jock and nutsack, I'm just creeped out by a guy that constantly talks about another guys junk. I guess being a country boy, I'm just not used to guys being fascinated by a guys package, or at least not openly discussing it. It's ok, I guess, not trashing you for the fascination, just saying it creeps me out.

[Nomad]

Brady isn't mobile, but what he is good at is moving away from pressure, even if to do nothing more than buy time to throw the ball away and avoid the sack. But, yea, I agree, he's not a QB to design QB 'movement' plays around.



I'll be very surprised if McDaniels doesn't have at least some plays designed to take advantage of his mobility. Like you, I'm guessing that's one f the things McDaniels liked about him and wanted to exploit in his play calling.

McDaniels drafted Tebow solely on his 'football' jumpshot, it's like no others!:D

[Lonestar]

Having "team" players and nice guys is great, but at some point McDaniels will have to stop trading talent for loyal soldiers. Hell, I'm a nice guy and a team player too, but the Broncos wouldn't be winning any games with me out there.

Having "talent" does not equate to wins either. At least it did not the past in DEN. If they do not play as a team makes no dif how many pro blows they have.
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[Tned]

i have no problem with people who think differently than i do.

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking." -
-- George Patton

but i will always defend my position and the right to have it....T.K.O.

This is my philosiphy as well. Both on BF, at work, and in life in general.


i will tell you that one of the major draws of this site when i came aboard was the sense of community and respect i witnessed,and the lack of "clique-ish" behavior.
i really hope the tension that i have been seeing and feeling here lately is born more from the bordom that comes with the offseason ,than a growing divide in what was a very comfortable and fun-loving place.
and though i do get tired of some posters who seem to find fault in almost every move made or article written by and about the broncos,

You get tired with those that always find fault with Josh or the Broncos, others get tired for being attacked if they say anything critical of Josh or the Broncos.

As to what drew you here and it changing, it has nothing to do with the boredom of the offseason. It has to do with a couple zealots on both sides of the debate turning every discussion into a venomous and hate-filled discussion.

It is ruining the board and we are having people that NEVER complain about anything or anyone talk about how they are getting to the point that they can't stand to read or post in Broncos Talk. That's a problem that goes way beyond boredom.

[T.K.O.]

Hey Jr, I know this post wasn't addressed to me, but I did have a question about your comment. What would be wrong with somebody being unhappy when the season was over? I was EXTREMELY unhappy, especially after I realized that over the last 10 games of the season, only Detroit had a worse record. Frankly, I'm amazed that anybody was encouraged when the season ended, especially when it appeared that the team put out little effort in the last game.

i HATED how the season ended....i thought we were a shoe in for the playoffs 2 years in a row....and i was like "what the **** does this team have to do to make the ******* playoffs !"
new coach....new qb.....new rb.....new dc.....new ? i was more pissed than the meltdown when the chargers new all they had to do was beat our asses and get to 8-8 and the division was there's.
i mean CRAP all we had to do was beat the raiders and chefs at home !!!!!!!!!:mad:

[Tned]

i HATED how the season ended....i thought we were a shoe in for the playoffs 2 years in a row....and i was like "what the **** does this team have to do to make the ******* playoffs !"
new coach....new qb.....new rb.....new dc.....new ? i was more pissed than the meltdown when the chargers new all they had to do was beat our asses and get to 8-8 and the division was there's.
i mean CRAP all we had to do was beat the raiders and chefs at home !!!!!!!!!:mad:

Exactly, how could anyone not be upset the way the season ended or with the final result? Even if you went into the season thinking we would be a 5 or 6 win team, after we won 6 straight and only had to beat KC and Oak at home to get in, you couldn't NOT be upset or mad at the ay the season ended.

[T.K.O.]

This is my philosiphy as well. Both on BF, at work, and in life in general.



You get tired with those that always find fault with Josh or the Broncos, others get tired for being attacked if they say anything critical of Josh or the Broncos.

As to what drew you here and it changing, it has nothing to do with the boredom of the offseason. It has to do with a couple zealots on both sides of the debate turning every discussion into a venomous and hate-filled discussion.

It is ruining the board and we are having people that NEVER complain about anything or anyone talk about how they are getting to the point that they can't stand to read or post in Broncos Talk. That's a problem that goes way beyond boredom.

if i thought i could get away with it ...i would just go to the "home of the hot women" threads until the storm and the offseason were over ! but my wife would ban me from BF:laugh:

[GGMoogly]

...Matt Leinert won two national Championships as well. Left Handed, and was drafted higher than Tebow was. But because of all the expectations, the unbelievable fan base that developed in florida, ALLLLL the draft picks that were given up, the first round pick choice, and the fact that we just traded FOR a QB, only to then turn around and draft another one. All these things add up to the expectations of being HIGH for Tebow. A lot of hype and one hell of a lot of expectations...

Leinert is a playboy and was in college. I'm not saying he doesn't have talent, but how many of his teammates are willing to follow him through NFL hell? Think of Elway and what is probably the signature play of his career - the helicopter in the SB. He didn't score, but who watching the game in person or on TV wasn't inspired? At that moment, which of Elway's teammates would NOT have run through a burning brick wall covered with bees for the man? THAT is what Tebow brings. Would Leinert sacrifice himself for the team? Maybe...but I find it unlikely.

[T.K.O.]

Leinert is a playboy and was in college. I'm not saying he doesn't have talent, but how many of his teammates are willing to follow him through NFL hell? Think of Elway and what is probably the signature play of his career - the helicopter in the SB. He didn't score, but who watching the game in person or on TV wasn't inspired? At that moment, which of Elway's teammates would NOT have run through a burning brick wall covered with bees for the man? THAT is what Tebow brings. Would Leinert sacrifice himself for the team? Maybe...but I find it unlikely.

i enjoyed this post and it has been great having you around....but i think you just compared tebow to elway so........your toast:behindsofa::attention:

[Lonestar]

Hey Jr, I know this post wasn't addressed to me, but I did have a question about your comment. What would be wrong with somebody being unhappy when the season was over? I was EXTREMELY unhappy, especially after I realized that over the last 10 games of the season, only Detroit had a worse record. Frankly, I'm amazed that anybody was encouraged when the season ended, especially when it appeared that the team put out little effort in the last game.

Just what was your expectations from last year. Initally mine where 4-12. So an 8-8 where real good.

Now was I happy that we lost as many of those last games NO.

But I am smart enough to figure out what caused it.

Mostly it was the OLINE falling apart on O.
And frankly the LOS for the D sucked most of the year.

Anyone beleiveing the fields was a real NT had to be sniffing the good stuff.

The DL was built like the last few years all smoke and mirrors once the OC's figured it out. It was all down hill.

Happy about it NO but I would have been concerned had they Josh and Xman not addressed it in the off season.
As for the aquiring a real NT how can anyone not be happy with that the DE's wait and see.

The oline has a major upgrade on it IF they all come back healthy (unlikely) and gel (about game 8).
Anyway it should be as good as last year in a worst case scenario.

How can anyone not be happy wiyh Josh after the season. We all saw the weak araes and he and Xman addressed them all IMHO.

Did they forsee clady getting hurt not sure anyone did but I know they tried real hard to patch the glaring holes we knew about at the time.

Can you be unhappy about that and still be logical?

I support the coach and GM as I believe they are on the right path. Unforseen issues, clady and harris may set it back a bit. But then what do you expect in a second year?

I think we are ahead of the schedule I set last year when Pat made all the changes.


We have a FQB on the squad(who remains to be seen), the oline has been rebuilt,the Dline seems tio be stable with a lot of RAW youth behind them. RB check, WRs check, DBs check, LBs check. IF they all show up and play we should be fine barring injuries.
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[Northman]

Hey Jr, I know this post wasn't addressed to me, but I did have a question about your comment. What would be wrong with somebody being unhappy when the season was over? I was EXTREMELY unhappy, especially after I realized that over the last 10 games of the season, only Detroit had a worse record. Frankly, I'm amazed that anybody was encouraged when the season ended, especially when it appeared that the team put out little effort in the last game.


Yea, collapsing down the stretch much like the year before didnt sit well with me. Then losing the DC who i thought contributed more to the team in 09' than even the HC himself made me even unhappier. Now, we are failing to reward one of the best players on this team who has done nothing but what Josh has preached about. So while i may have had some positive feelings going into 09' and even after the 6-0 start there wasnt a whole lot to be positive about down the stretch. A whole lot of the same ol, same ol. And at the end of the day it falls on the shoulders of the HC. Some will say that we've made some moves that "should" be better and hopefully they are correct but right now my skepticism says we are in for a long year this year. None of which has anything to do with Shanahan or Cutler. Both are gone and i supported the moves for both no question about it. Ask anyone, like Tned and Rav. They will be the first too tell you even when it came to Marshall i was 100% behind the trade. But, it doesnt change the fact that you have to replace the production and that wont be so easy. Whenver you hire a HC you need to see progress which is something i have not seen since the end of last year. Why it would be that Jrwiz would be celebrating another 8-8 season is beyond me. I suppose if the 6-0 run was later in the season one might be pretty excited but that wasnt the case.

[Chris90210]

Whatever side of the tracks Tim Tebow's currently on is the right side. If he crossed over them, he would still be on the right side.

sounds like a chuck norris "fact"

[spikerman]

Just what was your expectations from last year. Initally mine where 4-12. So an 8-8 where real good.
Initially I thought about 4 wins was right, but once a team starts out 6-0, no fan should be happy finishing up 2-8 over the last 10 games. That was pathetic.



Now was I happy that we lost as many of those last games NO.

But I am smart enough to figure out what caused it.

Mostly it was the OLINE falling apart on O.
And frankly the LOS for the D sucked most of the year.

Anyone beleiveing the fields was a real NT had to be sniffing the good stuff.

The DL was built like the last few years all smoke and mirrors once the OC's figured it out. It was all down hill. While the o-line was a problem last year, I think the offense's lack of will/ability to stretch the field really hurt it. Every defense knew that Denver was unwilling or unable to hurt them deep. It's easy to play defense when the offense's playbook lives no more than 10 yards downfield. Yes, toward the end of the season and in the Washington game there were a couple of shots downfield, but those times were very rare.

As for the d-line, I agree. It was terribly undermanned. A concern that I brought up during the last offseason. I said I couldn't understand why upgrading the d-line wasn't more of a priority. IIRC, I was soundly chastised by the pro McDaniels crowd for questioning it.



Happy about it NO but I would have been concerned had they Josh and Xman not addressed it in the off season.
As for the aquiring a real NT how can anyone not be happy with that the DE's wait and see.

The oline has a major upgrade on it IF they all come back healthy (unlikely) and gel (about game 8).
Anyway it should be as good as last year in a worst case scenario. They did address the line. It remains to be seen if Denver got better or merely older. I still don't think they did enough to improve the defense. With all of those draft picks available it seems like there was probably some room to do something.

The o-line is in a state of flux. I don't blame the front office or coaching staff for that except for voluntarily starting the season with one true center on the roster, who also happens to be a rookie. Injuries happen. It's just bad luck, but I suspect it could be a rough beginning to the year up front.


How can anyone not be happy wiyh Josh after the season. We all saw the weak araes and he and Xman addressed them all IMHO.

Did they forsee clady getting hurt not sure anyone did but I know they tried real hard to patch the glaring holes we knew about at the time.

Can you be unhappy about that and still be logical? I'm unhappy because I think the coach believes his system will win without any playmakers on offense and has removed all of the proven playmakers from the team. Who is supposed to be the playmaker now?


I support the coach and GM as I believe they are on the right path. Unforseen issues, clady and harris may set it back a bit. But then what do you expect in a second year?

I think we are ahead of the schedule I set last year when Pat made all the changes.


We have a FQB on the squad(who remains to be seen), the oline has been rebuilt,the Dline seems tio be stable with a lot of RAW youth behind them. RB check, WRs check, DBs check, LBs check. IF they all show up and play we should be fine barring injuries.
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For me it's not about supporting or not supporting McDaniels. I don't agree with many of the decisions he's made so far, but for our team's sake I hope they work out.

Even in your most optimistic scenario everything has to break just right and no major injuries can occur. I don't think there are very good odds of either one happening. I guess at this point I just don't see the bright future that you do. Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I worry that I'm not.

[GGMoogly]

I read all these posts like everyone else and it seems to me there are so many fellow fans who are just talking past each other. I don't see a BIG difference in a lot of the content, not a LOT of disagreement, not really. But I do see huge differences in styles of expression and that is causing hard feelings for many. My grandmother once told me you can disagree without being disagreeable and that's what I try to do.

Now, I look around this board and I see folks who are just as geeky as I am for the Broncs. You may think so-and-so has merde for brains and he may think you're an oxygen thief, but when Moreno is scampering down the sidelines, or when Tebow shoves his ungodly huge mitt down some NT's throat, we will all be cheering. If it's in the playoffs, we'll even be hugging. And when the refs blow a call and we get jobbed, we'll all be pissing and moaning together.

We are a unit here - a volunteer Fan Army - and we're in this together. I may disagree with something you say, but you'll still be heads and shoulders above any slime-crawling Raider fan or prissy Bolts fan in my book. I'm not you mother or your boss, I'm not going to tell you how to behave. I'm just going to shake your hand and call you friend!

That is all...I am now stepping off the soapbox. :salute:

[Lonestar]

Initially I thought about 4 wins was right, but once a team starts out 6-0, no fan should be happy finishing up 2-8 over the last 10 games. That was pathetic.

While the o-line was a problem last year, I think the offense's lack of will/ability to stretch the field really hurt it. Every defense knew that Denver was unwilling or unable to hurt them deep. It's easy to play defense when the offense's playbook lives no more than 10 yards downfield. Yes, toward the end of the season and in the Washington game there were a couple of shots downfield, but those times were very rare.

As for the d-line, I agree. It was terribly undermanned. A concern that I brought up during the last offseason. I said I couldn't understand why upgrading the d-line wasn't more of a priority. IIRC, I was soundly chastised by the pro McDaniels crowd for questioning it.

They did address the line. It remains to be seen if Denver got better or merely older. I still don't think they did enough to improve the defense. With all of those draft picks available it seems like there was probably some room to do something.

The o-line is in a state of flux. I don't blame the front office or coaching staff for that except for voluntarily starting the season with one true center on the roster, who also happens to be a rookie. Injuries happen. It's just bad luck, but I suspect it could be a rough beginning to the year up front.

I'm unhappy because I think the coach believes his system will win without any playmakers on offense and has removed all of the proven playmakers from the team. Who is supposed to be the playmaker now?



For me it's not about supporting or not supporting McDaniels. I don't agree with many of the decisions he's made so far, but for our team's sake I hope they work out.

Even in your most optimistic scenario everything has to break just right and no major injuries can occur. I don't think there are very good odds of either one happening. I guess at this point I just don't see the bright future that you do. Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I worry that I'm not.

Was I happy losing after a 6-0 start no but I analized. What I thought was the reasons. Whicj I stated above LOS play.

It was plain to me that we we're still. Smole and mirrors and when the ippsing teams figured it out we had nothing on t tank to stave them off.

If the oline sucks you are limited on what you can do.

If the center is ineffective which ours was. And then replacing hamliton mid stream had to be done with harris ineffective after being injured that meant 3 of the 5 were not used to each other.

Couple all of that with a QB with a bum Wheel. What else could have been done? Try to throw long when we had no deep threat, no time to do so, and QB that could not make the plays on one ankle.

Come on be logical about it. They pretty much did the best that could have been done.

As for the D that collapsed we all saw it. Why because we went with nolans choices. And when called on the play he sucked it up.

No other way to describe it.

While many thought he was the hero of the year it was his defense that bit the big one especially the last few games. Why? they were worn out, from being undersized in a new scheme and rarely had gap control.

Stay at home and someone else can make the plays.

There is only one guy to blame for that. IMHO. He like all the other malcontents have moved on.

I'm willing to see what happens this year with all the changes and expect more consistency than last year.

If we are not better stats wise then I may be cirtcal like I was with mikey till then I support him and the team.
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[jhildebrand]

The O line was an issue last season! They havent been a good run blocking team fro at least two seasons now. Run blocking is an attitude of all nasty.

That said, one of the most BRILLIANT things McD has done is doing away with the ZBS and go for power.

I think equally brilliant is his choice of RB's coach. The guy churned out some pretty good RB's in Buff. I am excited to see our running game grow.

EDIT: to stay on topic, Tebow's mechanics wont matter much when the running game can take over anytime.

[TXBRONC]

Initially I thought about 4 wins was right, but once a team starts out 6-0, no fan should be happy finishing up 2-8 over the last 10 games. That was pathetic.

A lot people praised the 8-8 finish because so called experts said Denver would win only about 4 games. I never have because those so called experts are not ones getting on the field. I agree when a team starts off 6-0 no fan should be happy about finishing up 2-8 over the last 10 games. Because that doesn't show progression it show either stagnation or regression or some combination of the two.


While the o-line was a problem last year, I think the offense's lack of will/ability to stretch the field really hurt it. Every defense knew that Denver was unwilling or unable to hurt them deep. It's easy to play defense when the offense's playbook lives no more than 10 yards down field. Yes, toward the end of the season and in the Washington game there were a couple of shots down field, but those times were very rare.

Yes the offensive line share in failings of the unit for sure but some way overplay that hand. Our offensive line didn't leak like sieve as some have suggested. Facts are facts we have an immobile starting quarterback that struggled to slide away from pressure and to compound the problem had a tendency to hold onto the ball way to long. When Orton came to Denver we knew then that he wasn't much on throwing it long and was more comfortable with short and intermediate routes. It shouldn't have been a surprise that defenses were eventually going smother routes Orton likes best and dare him to throw over the top.


As for the d-line, I agree. It was terribly undermanned. A concern that I brought up during the last off season. I said I couldn't understand why upgrading the d-line wasn't more of a priority. IIRC, I was soundly chastised by the pro McDaniels crowd for questioning it.

Again we knew going into the season that our defensive line was undersized but they played well those first 6 games. They might have been able to hold up better if the offense hadn't of sputtered the way they did all season long. As you said some were very vocal in defending McDaniels with his choices for the defensive line, but when the wheels came off all of sudden it was all Nolan's fault.


They did address the line. It remains to be seen if Denver got better or merely older. I still don't think they did enough to improve the defense. With all of those draft picks available it seems like there was probably some room to do something.

For sure we got older. I don't have a lot doubt that if Jamal Williams is healthy that he will be improvement over Fields. But at the end of day Williams is still 34 years old and we will be doing well to get two more seasons out of him. Is Chris Baker the heir apparent? Maybe, but it's rather hard say since he played just a few snaps in one game.


The o-line is in a state of flux. I don't blame the front office or coaching staff for that except for voluntarily starting the season with one true center on the roster, who also happens to be a rookie. Injuries happen. It's just bad luck, but I suspect it could be a rough beginning to the year up front.

We drafted two centers this year J.D. Walton and Eric Olsen. Relatively speaking playing guard isn't as difficult to play as tackle so even if a rookie has to play at guard will be ok.


I'm unhappy because I think the coach believes his system will win without any playmakers on offense and has removed all of the proven playmakers from the team. Who is supposed to be the playmaker now?

That's million dollar question. Thomas is eventually suppose to be that deep threat but I don't know if he'll make much of an impact this year. Royal is a talented receiver but he's not a number one. As of right now Lloyd and Gaffney are going to be asked to fill the production void. We'll see if they can. It's one thing to have a top flight quarterback throwing to journeymen receivers like Brady did to the tune of three Super Bowl titles in four years. It's quite another (imo) to ask a journeyman quarterback throw to journeymen receivers we could very easily end up with journeymen results. I hope it works out but I am skeptical.


For me it's not about supporting or not supporting McDaniels. I don't agree with many of the decisions he's made so far, but for our team's sake I hope they work out.

I have liked several of his decisions but there are some that I haven't. I think he's a very bright coach but like you I don't think he can trade talent away and replace it with lesser talent but higher character and win Championship. We did it that way once before and got eviscerated in three Super Bowls.


Even in your most optimistic scenario everything has to break just right and no major injuries can occur. I don't think there are very good odds of either one happening. I guess at this point I just don't see the bright future that you do. Again, I hope I'm wrong, but I worry that I'm not.

I think there is reason to be hopeful but there are a lot of ifs.

[Lonestar]

The O line was an issue last season! They havent been a good run blocking team fro at least two seasons now. Run blocking is an attitude of all nasty.

That said, one of the most BRILLIANT things McD has done is doing away with the ZBS and go for power.

I think equally brilliant is his choice of RB's coach. The guy churned out some pretty good RB's in Buff. I am excited to see our running game grow.

EDIT: to stay on topic, Tebow's mechanics wont matter much when the running game can take over anytime.

While I can not prove it I believe the hype around the 08 oline,Bobby T and Dennison caused most of the issues last year.
I suspect that when asked by Josh the two coaches told him the exsisting guy could transition into PBS.

Having rick try to coach the OL up was a huge mistake.

I suspect that he got a lot of pressure to keep that all in tact all the while KNOWING deep down it was not going work.

Now some will say that Josh has the final say in all things Broncos. But keeping the OL in tact knowing that theyhad to get bigger, stronger and meaner was unliky to happen in one year.

If he had come in with the plan to blow one of the best OLs in the business he would and probably did meet with resistance.

I belive that he and eberyone else had to be blind if they did not immediately se hamilton as the weak link with casey being the second worst.

In fact I suspect that giving him a new contract is much like what is going on with doom now. One of the reasons they drafted olsen last year was insurAnce for hamilton and the guy brought in from NE was a fail safe before the draft and olsen.

I'll bet Josh knew that they could not tranistion but did it anyway the appease Pat and Joe.

Little did he know that two other fruit loops would cause him issues to go along with a inneffective OL.

Add to that harris getting injured early and trying to come back before going IR.

Probably why we drafted 3 oline guys this year.



I also belive that BT really determined how much a RB played by seeing them get all the reps in practice.

The addition of the New coach was pretty good also.

IF and that is a big IF clady is back, harris plays to his former self and the two rookie can play decently this oline should be special in a few years.

Finally there is some beef on the LOS and they will not be at a 40-60 pound disadvantage. Like we have been forever.

Noght night
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[Bosco]

A good NFL HC builds an offense (or defense) to suit the players he has, especially the star or impact players.

I'm sorry, but that's exactly opposite of the truth, at least on the large scale. Good coaches install their systems and then acquire the players to fit that scheme. You need look no further than some of the elite teams of the last decade (New England, Pittsburgh, Indy...etc) to see that. They all have well established schemes and when they want to acquire a replacement or upgrade they know exactly what skillset they want and need out of a player.

Or for a more close to home example, how about the Shanahan era Broncos? Our offense has more or less been the same system since Shanny came to town and they were pretty much an upper echelon offense for that whole era. On the flip side, our defense was pretty much the poster child for "square peg in a round hole" after Greg Robinson left and even when we had continuity at DC (Coyer) the scheme changed drastically from year to year and once we lost the DC who could make a defense better than the sum of it's parts we were in for a world of hurt.

And even now, Tebow is a perfect example of this. When McDaniels opened up his offense in 2007, alot of it was based off the Gator's spread system, and now he's acquired the quarterback who ran that offense.

[Bosco]

When Orton came to Denver we knew then that he wasn't much on throwing it long and was more comfortable with short and intermediate routes. It shouldn't have been a surprise that defenses were eventually going smother routes Orton likes best and dare him to throw over the top. Orton threw deep quite often in college. He's perfectly capable of doing so and his deep accuracy was greatly improved last year. IMO the lack of a receiver capable of being a deep threat was a far greater problem than Orton's abilities.


Again we knew going into the season that our defensive line was undersized but they played well those first 6 games. They might have been able to hold up better if the offense hadn't of sputtered the way they did all season long. As you said some were very vocal in defending McDaniels with his choices for the defensive line, but when the wheels came off all of sudden it was all Nolan's fault. Couple problems here.

Our defensive success the first half of the season was largely due to excellent gameplanning, 2nd half adjustments and excellent play calling. The wheels started to fall off due to simple logistics (offenses learning how to adjust to us), coaching (Nolan's inability to keep momentum for the duration of the season, something he's struggled with his entire career) and the lack of legitimate starting quality D-linemen.

One of those problems is just a simple fact of life in the NFL. The two that can be corrected (Nolan and the lack of talent) have been addressed.

Also you're right that the DL choices were made by McDaniels, but you should also note that he acquired the best possible upgrades (Holliday and Fields) available in 3-4 talent depleted free agency and draft. He didn't neglect the line as you are insinuating.


Is Chris Baker the heir apparent? Maybe, but it's rather hard say since he played just a few snaps in one game. We're going to find out. Coming out of Hampton he certainly wasn't going to be getting a bunch of time at NT. Now he's had a year to work in an NFL strength and conditioning program while also learning from the sidelines. He'll get a chance to show that he is the future at the position and if he falters we'll simply bring in someone else.


That's million dollar question. Thomas is eventually suppose to be that deep threat but I don't know if he'll make much of an impact this year. I imagine the Broncos will handle him much like the Vikings handled Randy Moss in 1998. Have him really focus on a handful of routes (all deep ones) and then let him go out there and just beat people.


Royal is a talented receiver but he's not a number one. Wes Welker is New England's de facto #1 receiver. If he can do it, the far (athletically) superior Eddie Royal can too.


I have liked several of his decisions but there are some that I haven't. I think he's a very bright coach but like you I don't think he can trade talent away and replace it with lesser talent but higher character and win Championship. The only player we replaced with a less talented one was Cutler, and his replacement outperformed him.

[Jagsbch]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/285/868/95632254_display_image.jpg?1278356960

I'm a surfer who loves chasing hurricane swells. As such, I can tell you that whenever I hear predictions regarding how many hurricanes we are going to have, well.. The predictions are good for a laugh and nothing else.

Predictions by the so-called experts in football can have a much more intense impact on an individual player in regards to where they are drafted.

You can have a Hall of Famer picked in the sixth round as a result of the expert's opinions, as was the case for Tom Brady.

Or you can have busts picked with the first pick in the draft, such as... well, you could get ten people together they would all give you a different answer to that one.

Enter Florida Gator Tim Tebow. The Mainstream media may as well as have done a tag team pile drive wrestling move on him, in their attempt to sabotage his career with their erroneous takes.

The mainstream media loves to glorify the gun-slinging thugs of the NFL who go to stripper bars and make it rain, the prima donnas who act as cancers in team's locker rooms, the drug addicts and murderers and, well... you get the picture.

So it is no surprise to me that when Tim Tebow enters the league, the liberal mainstream media with great disdain and delight will do everything in their power to demonize the saint.

I have to draw the line in the sand here after seeing the masses being spell bound by all the so—called experts who insist on keeping their heads buried in the sand while writing off everything Tim Tebow managed to accomplish as if Tebow's success was a fluke.

Taking my queues from the many dragons I have slain, it is high time for me to sow my fury with a flame throwing session of my own, on the so-called experts who have dared to distort the collective mindset of Tebow's persona.

These dragons have managed to completely void much of the phenomenal accomplishments which ought to act as super launching pad for Tebow's NFL career. Rather, they would have the masses believe that these accomplishments are a stigma, with their mangled take on Tebow.

Tebow makes this mission as easy as shooting fish in a barrel. Just as the media attempted to do a curb stomp on Tebow's career, by running him over with Madden's Bus, here is my attempt to do a little stomping of my own.

Oh, it's on...

Warning. Comments to the article in this link may be hazzordous to any positive liberal view you may possess (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/415816-so-called-experts-are-dead-wrong-about-denver-broncos-tim-tebow):salute::beer::coffee::eek:

There is a three page dia tribe covering John Clayton, Pete Prisco and Mel Kiper, along with a real experts take on the matter...

[Shazam!]

So it is no surprise to me that when Tim Tebow enters the league, the liberal mainstream media with great disdain and delight will do everything in their power to demonize the saint.

Ive said this many times before, and I dont want to put a political spin on this, but this is the only reason why some in the media have cut Tebow up so badly. Most current and former coaches and ex-players have said he'll be a fantastic QB and those are the ones who's opinions count.

[SOCALORADO.]

Even Tim Tebow's parrot's advice is insightful.

[BrocoGator11]

Ive said this many times before, and I dont want to put a political spin on this, but this is the only reason why some in the media have cut Tebow up so badly. Most current and former coaches and ex-players have said he'll be a fantastic QB and those are the ones who's opinions count.

Agreed. The media has made the "Tebow Effect" so much worse. I wish the season would just start already so we can get back to football instead of some dramatic high school prom. I say leave it to the experts on his skills and progress. I dont think Tebow should start right away, he definately needs time to become a great NFL QB.

[T.K.O.]

some awesome qoutes from the article:beer:

"Anyhow, this kid was a one man wrecking crew and made a believer out of me. The film was not a fluke, he really was/is that good...

"Mechanics are for Volvos... but Tebow always had a repeatable release.

"And after the retooling his release is still within one or two degrees of his release while at UF.

"His release on a three—step is in the 1.95 to 2.01 second range, that’s from taking the ball from center to the top of the drop then getting the ball out of his hand... and falls in line with the best the NFL has to offer.

"Five and seven-step drop times are going to vary due to deeper routes—play action or not, pump fakes, etc.

"Forty times mean absolutely nothing in the game of football? What really matters are acceleration-burst/agility drills, i.e., three cone, 20 yd shuttle & 60 yd shuttle, and 10 yd split.

"In these drills Tebow blistered the times of three of the fastest dudes at the NFL combine. Does Tebow have breakaway speed? No. But after he picks up a 1st down or blasts across the goal line, does it really matter?

"I suggest you ask the cats that caught up to Tebow and took six yards or more to bring him down if speed matters.

"Tebow has more attempts, more completions, and more touchdowns on throws over 15 yards plus in the air than Bradford, McCoy or Clausen.

"One of the reasons Manning is brought up is the fact that kids are drafted on college production. And Tebow blistered Manning's college production—Peyton & Eli, with more yards per attempt, TD/pass ratio, interception percentage, and passer rating.
:salute: call me STOKED !

[MasterShake]

No one is right or wrong yet, the dude has yet to take a snap in a meaningful NFL game.

But since he is a Bronco he gets a free pass from me. Go Tebow!:salute:

[Lonestar]

Now I like this pick and think he has a heck of a chance to be a great QB.

But one has to stop and pause to ask all of the teams that need a QB passed on him in the first round.

He got to 25 before we made a move to get him. Most of the teams after that have established quality QB's on their team.

That means 20 some teams, HCs, GMs, owners that supposedly know football are stupid and listen to kiper, king and the other writers. Or are athietists.

I think we have kid with lots of pontetial and if he reaches that he could be the next Elway, manning.

Time will tell if he can make that jump in game speed, quality of players that many QB's fail to do.

Having Josh his brother and John around certanly will not hurt in his development.
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[Denver Native (Carol)]

No one is right or wrong yet, the dude has yet to take a snap in a meaningful NFL game.

But since he is a Bronco he gets a free pass from me. Go Tebow!:salute:

I totally agree - not sure why anyone is upset when they read/see negative articles in regards to Tebow - obviously, no one knows how he will do with the Broncos until he actually plays.

[T.K.O.]

Now I like this pick and think he has a heck of a chance to be a great QB.

But one has to stop and pause to ask all of the teams that need a QB passed on him in the first round.

He got to 25 before we made a move to get him. Most of the teams after that have established quality QB's on their team.

That means 20 some teams, HCs, GMs, owners that supposedly know football are stupid and listen to kiper, king and the other writers. Or are athietists.

I think we have kid with lots of pontetial and if he reaches that he could be the next Elway, manning.

Time will tell if he can make that jump in game speed, quality of players that many QB's fail to do.

Having Josh his brother and John around certanly will not hurt in his development.
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and they did'nt pick clausen or mccoy either......hmmmmm:confused:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Now I like this pick and think he has a heck of a chance to be a great QB.

But one has to stop and pause to ask all of the teams that need a QB passed on him in the first round.

He got to 25 before we made a move to get him. Most of the teams after that have established quality QB's on their team.

That means 20 some teams, HCs, GMs, owners that supposedly know football are stupid and listen to kiper, king and the other writers. Or are athietists.

I think we have kid with lots of pontetial and if he reaches that he could be the next Elway, manning.

Time will tell if he can make that jump in game speed, quality of players that many QB's fail to do.

Having Josh his brother and John around certanly will not hurt in his development.
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Not sure which teams who needed a QB passed on him in the first round - also, there may have been reasons they did - many articles stating that Buffalo was going to take him, but Coach McD found a way to get him. Maybe other teams did not have the, for a better word, luxury, of juggling picks around, etc., to make it happen.

[Tned]

some awesome qoutes from the article:beer:

"His release on a three—step is in the 1.95 to 2.01 second range, that’s from taking the ball from center to the top of the drop then getting the ball out of his hand... and falls in line with the best the NFL has to offer.

...

"Forty times mean absolutely nothing in the game of football? What really matters are acceleration-burst/agility drills, i.e., three cone, 20 yd shuttle & 60 yd shuttle, and 10 yd split.

"In these drills Tebow blistered the times of three of the fastest dudes at the NFL combine. Does Tebow have breakaway speed? No. But after he picks up a 1st down or blasts across the goal line, does it really matter?



I love these two sets of quotes especially. First, the release time. If this is accurate, it goes a long way to addressing his windup issue. However, didn't he change it for the combine? Or, was it after the combine he chanrged to the more compact (might not matter based on the comment above about even retooled being similar to UF)?

The other one about the acceleration. I posted yesterday or Sunday about the hope that McDaniels designs some plays to utilize his mobility. Not so much an entire offense (kind of like the bootleg offense with Jake), but just some movement, whether it be rollout play actions, designed QB runs, moving pockets, etc. Just enough to force the defense to game plan for him outside the pocket.

[Tned]

Now I like this pick and think he has a heck of a chance to be a great QB.

But one has to stop and pause to ask all of the teams that need a QB passed on him in the first round.

He got to 25 before we made a move to get him. Most of the teams after that have established quality QB's on their team.

That means 20 some teams, HCs, GMs, owners that supposedly know football are stupid and listen to kiper, king and the other writers. Or are athietists.

I think we have kid with lots of pontetial and if he reaches that he could be the next Elway, manning.

Time will tell if he can make that jump in game speed, quality of players that many QB's fail to do.

Having Josh his brother and John around certanly will not hurt in his development.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I don't think it means they are stupid (the 20 some teams that passed). Some, didn't have a QB need, or at least not one they were willing to fill with a first round pick. Beyond that, he is a high risk/high reward player. Very similar to picking a stud that has off-field problems (like Randy Moss). A lot of coaches are going to go for the 'safe' pick, and Tebow was clearly not a safe pick.

The fact that McDaniels was willing to roll the dice on a high risk/high reward player that he believed could be 'special' is one of the things I like about him.

[Northman]

No one is right or wrong yet, the dude has yet to take a snap in a meaningful NFL game.

But since he is a Bronco he gets a free pass from me. Go Tebow!:salute:

^This

We've heard the talk, now lets see the walk.

[jhildebrand]

All anyone can do is speculate and offer conjecture or opinions on Tebow....for now. How can any of that be wrong? :confused:

TC starts at the end of this month. Soon enough we'll have a pretty good idea where Tebow is in his progress of becoming an NFL QB.

[TXBRONC]

No one is right or wrong yet, the dude has yet to take a snap in a meaningful NFL game.

But since he is a Bronco he gets a free pass from me. Go Tebow!:salute:

How much weight should be paid to guy with a talking milkshake riding a unicorn named Mr. Luckyhorn? :suspicious:

Seriously, I feel the sameway he gets time to prove himself. I'm not going to write him off just because some talking heads think he'll fail.

[Northman]

and they did'nt pick clausen or mccoy either......hmmmmm:confused:

Exactly. The only pick that can really be challenged is the Bradford one but even then Tebow was never projected to go high at all. Even though i thought it a real reach to take Tebow that high if the reports were true that Buff was interested than somebody other than Denver coveted him enough to grab him when they did.

[Tned]

Exactly. The only pick that can really be challenged is the Bradford one but even then Tebow was never projected to go high at all. Even though i thought it a real reach to take Tebow that high if the reports were true that Buff was interested than somebody other than Denver coveted him enough to grab him when they did.

There were also rumors pre-draft that NE might pick him. I struggle to believe that NE would use a first round pick on a backup QB, but that's what some in the media were saying.

[T.K.O.]

Exactly. The only pick that can really be challenged is the Bradford one but even then Tebow was never projected to go high at all. Even though i thought it a real reach to take Tebow that high if the reports were true that Buff was interested than somebody other than Denver coveted him enough to grab him when they did.

i remember alot of buzz about the pats wanting him as well....could be that mcD did'nt want his former boss getting his toy...or that billy played mcd like a fiddle and spooked him:laugh:
either way i still believe after the trades the broncos made for picks the risk was minimal compared to the potential reward:salute:

[jhildebrand]

I believe the hype around the 08 oline,Bobby T and Dennison caused most of the issues last year.

What hype? :confused: They were a pretty good pass blocking team at best but a lot of would be sacks had as much to do with Cutler's ability to move as it did the O line.

[jhildebrand]

The only player we replaced with a less talented one was Cutler, and his replacement outperformed him.

He did? :confused:

How do you figure?

[T.K.O.]

He did? :confused:

How do you figure?

i can help with this one........



RK PLAYER TEAM ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A LONG TD INT SACK RATE YDS/G
21 Jay Cutler, QB CHI 555 336 60.5 3666 6.61 71 27 26 35 76.8 229

14 Kyle Orton, QB DEN 541 336 62.1 3802 7.03 87 21 12 29 86.8 238

orton
better comp.%
more yards per game and total for season
better td/int ratio
higher all around qb rating
and better record.......and did that while playing with 2 pretty major injuries and missing some game time.
so.....how do you figure:confused:

[TXBRONC]

I love these two sets of quotes especially. First, the release time. If this is accurate, it goes a long way to addressing his windup issue. However, didn't he change it for the combine? Or, was it after the combine he chanrged to the more compact (might not matter based on the comment above about even retooled being similar to UF)?

The other one about the acceleration. I posted yesterday or Sunday about the hope that McDaniels designs some plays to utilize his mobility. Not so much an entire offense (kind of like the bootleg offense with Jake), but just some movement, whether it be rollout play actions, designed QB runs, moving pockets, etc. Just enough to force the defense to game plan for him outside the pocket.

NFLN while at the combine did an interview with Tebow and IIRC he had at least started working correcting that wind up. By the time his pro day came around and I think that was well after the combine he had made significant progress on fixing his throwing motion. I can't say with any certainty but I'll bet those numbers on how quickly he's releasing the ball are post combine.

[silkamilkamonico]

I'll add balence to this board, and think he's going to bust at QB. He seems like a great guy, and he's a very good athlete, I do think he could be a good player in a Chris Cooley type of role.

Here's to a great young man who's a great athlete, and may because a great utility player that Denver can use in certain packages.

[Ravage!!!]

No one is right or wrong yet, the dude has yet to take a snap in a meaningful NFL game.

But since he is a Bronco he gets a free pass from me. Go Tebow!:salute:

Thats a great quote, right there, Shake. As of right now, no one is wrong. Thats why its talked about so much, and so much speculation is made. Its great talk.... but as some have mentioned, I can't wait for the season to start because I'm tired of the speculations :salute:

[jhildebrand]

Clearly NE didn't want him as they were our trading partner on the deal. If NE wanted Tebow at all they wouldn't have traded.

[TXBRONC]

Clearly NE didn't want him as they were our trading partner on the deal. If NE wanted Tebow at all they wouldn't have traded.

I think you're right but I also think it's possible that they may have wanted but not at the price of a first round pick.

[jhildebrand]

i can help with this one........



RK PLAYER TEAM ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A LONG TD INT SACK RATE YDS/G
21 Jay Cutler, QB CHI 555 336 60.5 3666 6.61 71 27 26 35 76.8 229

14 Kyle Orton, QB DEN 541 336 62.1 3802 7.03 87 21 12 29 86.8 238

orton
better comp.%
more yards per game and total for season
better td/int ratio
higher all around qb rating
and better record.......and did that while playing with 2 pretty major injuries and missing some game time.
so.....how do you figure:confused:

I was waiting for Bosco to respond but since you responded exactly as I figured he would I will respond to this.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Are you serious? :confused:

I like you TKO so don't take this personal. I just want to highlight the games some of the most ardent supporters play AND THIS IS ONE OF THEM.

So many claim it is unfair to compare the 08 Broncos O to the 09 Broncos 0 as it is "apples to bananas" as I recall it being labeled once.

You see, most of the McDaniels supporters always cry about comparing apples to oranges. Well saying Orton outperformed Cutler here IS JUST THAT!

The NFCN is much tougher as a division then the AFCW was. Denver had a REAL WR with NFL experience. Chicago had hardly anything at WR.

The closest comparison you could make is Cutler and the 08 Broncos vs Orton and the 09 Broncos. One was in charge of a unit riddled by injuries, on his 8th RB and did quite well-2nd ranked O for yards.

The other had a first round RB talent, far less injuries, much the same unit, and didn't put up near the numbers Cutler did.

I don't stick up for Cutler often. However, to try to play the card that Orton outperformed Cutler after all the "unfair comparison" arguments made on behalf of McD is a bit disingenuous and hypocritical.

[T.K.O.]

Clearly NE didn't want him as they were our trading partner on the deal. If NE wanted Tebow at all they wouldn't have traded.

i highly doubt they had any idea who the broncos had slotted for the pick when we traded....so that really does'nt hold water.

[jhildebrand]

i highly doubt they had any idea who the broncos had slotted for the pick when we traded....so that really does'nt hold water.

It was pretty clear to most in the media Denver was enamored with Tebow. They even brought him back the last minute the day before the draft. I highly doubt they did that to allow Tebow to get another Chipotle burrito.

It was clear to many on these boards the Broncos would take Tebow at some point if given the opportunity. The minute the trade was announced the Broncos had moved back into the first round EVERYBODY here knew what was coming. Go back to the thread and look for yourself! I am sure the minute NE's phone rang and it was the Broncos, they knew exactly what McDaniels was up to. If they wanted Tebow, they would have simply said NO and taken him themselves.

So are you trying to tell me so many here knew that but King Belichick had NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what Minichick was up to? :confused:

Please!

[Ravage!!!]

Its a stupid argument. To say that Orton is better than Cutler is dumb. To use a single season set of stats to try and prove it, is retarded. Cutler is the better player, period. It doesn't take a genius, and it doesn't take some stupid stat sheet to see it. You just have to watch the games. This team would have been better with the better players. EVERY team is better with better players. Thats pretty simple.

[Tned]

NFLN while at the combine did an interview with Tebow and IIRC he had at least started working correcting that wind up. By the time his pro day came around and I think that was well after the combine he had made significant progress on fixing his throwing motion. I can't say with any certainty but I'll bet those numbers on how quickly he's releasing the ball are post combine.

I couldn't remember if he put those two to three intensive weeks of work in before the combine or pro day. Now that you say it, pro day sounds right.

[T.K.O.]

I was waiting for Bosco to respond but since you responded exactly as I figured he would I will respond to this.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Are you serious? :confused:

I like you TKO so don't take this personal. I just want to highlight the games some of the most ardent supporters play AND THIS IS ONE OF THEM.

So many claim it is unfair to compare the 08 Broncos O to the 09 Broncos 0 as it is "apples to bananas" as I recall it being labeled once.

You see, most of the McDaniels supporters always cry about comparing apples to oranges. Well saying Orton outperformed Cutler here IS JUST THAT!

The NFCN is much tougher as a division then the AFCW was. Denver had a REAL WR with NFL experience. Chicago had hardly anything at WR.

The closest comparison you could make is Cutler and the 08 Broncos vs Orton and the 09 Broncos. One was in charge of a unit riddled by injuries, on his 8th RB and did quite well-2nd ranked O for yards.

The other had a first round RB talent, far less injuries, much the same unit, and didn't put up near the numbers Cutler did.

I don't stick up for Cutler often. However, to try to play the card that Orton outperformed Cutler after all the "unfair comparison" arguments made on behalf of McD is a bit disingenuous and hypocritical.

we split with every team in the division and had what was considered one of the toughest schedules in the league last year ,so your theory that we had it easier than the bears does'nt make sense.
also the bears had a much better run game the year before (with orton) so one could argue that cutler had something to do with it,s demise.
and we are talking about statistical superiority here...not wether cutler or orton would have done if they were on the colts or saints last year.
the stats speak for themselves and we will never know if orton would have made the playoffs ont the 08' broncos
or if cutler would have on the 09' broncos.
the fact is that orton played the position of qb better than cutler did on their respective teams last season....and that is a fact:salute:

and far less injuries....are you kidding me?
our starting RT went down after a 6-0 start,our qb had his finger poking through his knuckle we had a rookie rb and an oft injured vet and later a high ankle sprain for the qb....not to mention a backup qb who went 3 of 13 and a couple picks when called upon.and yet we still ended up with a better record than the bears

[silkamilkamonico]

And even now, Tebow is a perfect example of this. When McDaniels opened up his offense in 2007, alot of it was based off the Gator's spread system, and now he's acquired the quarterback who ran that offense.

I don't think either one of us knows for sure, but I don't see any resemblance of truth to that whatsover.

NE's offense was based on moving the offensive formation around before the snap after the read (something Tebow never did once in college), and then creating adjustments with the WR's choosing 1 or 2/3 routes based on the given defense.

Tebow never once made pro reads before the snap (the offense at Florida didn't require it), and was entirely based on utilizing the speed of the players (using the long side of the field). The WR's were given their only route, and their was absolutely no reading involved on the defense from the QB or WR's.

There are literally hundreds of variations of the spread right now. Tebow stood 4 yards behind center at Florida to utilize a quicker point of attack, where the NFL QB stands 5-6 yards back to allow a created point.

The depth behind center won't be an issue for Tebow to adjust too, but it's one way of showing just how different shotgun formations and the spread offense are nowadays.

[Ravage!!!]

the fact is that orton played the position of qb better than cutler did on their respective teams last season....and that is a fact:salute:

No.. thats an opinion, not a fact. There's the problem. Some can't identify what truly is a fact, and what is an opinion. Your statement is an opinion based on numbers that YOU believe prove your perspective. However, it doesn't make your opinion fact.

[TXBRONC]

i highly doubt they had any idea who the broncos had slotted for the pick when we traded....so that really does'nt hold water.

J's comments holds water because it is true it was out there that McDaniels was interested in this kid. The fact that McDaniels brought him back for a second visit, and all the praise he heaped on Tebow in an interview just before the draft were strong signals that McDaniels was interested in drafting him.

[T.K.O.]

No.. thats an opinion, not a fact. There's the problem. Some can't identify what truly is a fact, and what is an opinion. Your statement is an opinion based on numbers that YOU believe prove your perspective. However, it doesn't make your opinion fact.

ok so winning more games,throwing for more yards ,having a better comp % ,having a better ypa #,throwing 14 fewer int's while only 6 fewer td's makes my saying orton had a better year is an opinion?
please enlighten me as to how cutler had a better year....it should be entertaining at the least:coffee:

oh wait i got it.....he got more fantasy points

[Ravage!!!]

ok so winning more games,throwing for more yards ,having a better comp % ,having a better ypa #,throwing 14 fewer int's while only 6 fewer td's makes my saying orton had a better year is an opinion?
please enlighten me as to how cutler had a better year....it should be entertaining at the least:coffee:

oh wait i got it.....he got more fantasy points

Again, TKO, its being able to identify the difference between what is fact and what is an opinion. You believe Orton is/was better. Thats purely an opinion, no matter what kind of numbers you throw.

Its your opinion, not a fact. Pure and simple.

[T.K.O.]

J's comments holds water because it is true it was out there that McDaniels was interested in this kid. The fact that McDaniels brought him back for a second visit, and all the praise he heaped on Tebow in an interview just before the draft were strong signals that McDaniels was interested in drafting him.

i know but,i think everyone was surprised (and many still are) that we went after him in the first round.so it's safe to say alot of teams expected him to be there in the 2nd/3rd round .so the trading up could have been for any number of players.
it is'nt like the pats said "well if we make this trade the broncos are gonna take tebow at 25 " like i said i think it was a surprise to most if not all involved

[T.K.O.]

Again, TKO, its being able to identify the difference between what is fact and what is an opinion. You believe Orton is/was better. Thats purely an opinion, no matter what kind of numbers you throw.

Its your opinion, not a fact. Pure and simple.

so it's also not a fact that manning or brees had a better year than chris simms?
i mean if #'s and wins dont matter...:confused::laugh:
i will agree with you on one thing...."some people are confused about what is fact and what is opinion"

[Tned]

i know but,i think everyone was surprised (and many still are) that we went after him in the first round.so it's safe to say alot of teams expected him to be there in the 2nd/3rd round .so the trading up could have been for any number of players.
it is'nt like the pats said "well if we make this trade the broncos are gonna take tebow at 25 " like i said i think it was a surprise to most if not all involved

I wasn't surprised. Not after all the talk leading up to the draft, and the second long meeting between McDaniels and Tebow.

I was in Europe the week before the draft, and a couple buddies and I were talking about the draft and I told them that the rumors were growing that he would take Tebow in the first. They watch NCAA, where I don't, so I was asking them what they thought of him.

Then, the day of the draft, I told one of them that I wouldn't be surprised if they moved around to grab a center (can't remember the name of the guy that went in the first) and Tebow, as those were two of the biggest needs on the team.

So, I wasn't surprised, and I am not upset by the move. I think the WR/QB pickup was better than a C/QB pickup, because we needed to replace Cutler and Marshall, and hopefully in a year or two, these guys will be as productive or more productive.

[TXBRONC]

we split with every team in the division and had what was considered one of the toughest schedules in the league last year ,so your theory that we had it easier than the bears does'nt make sense.
also the bears had a much better run game the year before (with orton) so one could argue that cutler had something to do with it,s demise.
and we are talking about statistical superiority here...not wether cutler or orton would have done if they were on the colts or saints last year.
the stats speak for themselves and we will never know if orton would have made the playoffs ont the 08' broncos
or if cutler would have on the 09' broncos.
the fact is that orton played the position of qb better than cutler did on their respective teams last season....and that is a fact:salute:

and far less injuries....are you kidding me?
our starting RT went down after a 6-0 start,our qb had his finger poking through his knuckle we had a rookie rb and an oft injured vet and later a high ankle sprain for the qb....not to mention a backup qb who went 3 of 13 and a couple picks when called upon.and yet we still ended up with a better record than the bears

Yes we split with every team in our division. But that doesn't tell the whole story. All three of those victories came on the road. Two of those during the 6-0 start. All three of our losses to our division rivials came at home and well after the 6-0 start. Also Orton wasn't anywhere near as good after 6-0 run. 12 touchdowns and 11 interception in that same stretch. Oh and his 4th quarter completion percentage for the year 38% that's terrible in crunch time.

It's a fact we didn't have many injuries. You're referencing all three players. On top Orton didn't miss significant because of injuries. Why do you bring up his hurt finger. We were 6-0 during that period so that doesn't hold water and you know it. And using his hurt ankle as excuse doesn't cut it either. If he's healthy enough to get on the field then he needed play better than he did.

Our record being better isn't a good argument they were 7-9 and we were 8-8 that isn't anything to be proud of imo.

[T.K.O.]

williams.odrick and kindle were just a few that come to mind that many thought we might still pick before going after tebow.
anyway it's water under the bridge at this point and let's just hope the broncos look like super geniuses in the next couple years !:elefant::beer:

[Ravage!!!]

When I saw the trades to move up, I know I was staring at the screen saying... "oh man, we re moving up to get Tebow." Wasn't shocked. Wasn't surprised. The regime needed to make a splash after the loss of talent in the last two offseasons, and this could buy an extra year.

[Ravage!!!]

so it's also not a fact that manning or brees had a better year than chris simms?
i mean if #'s and wins dont matter...:confused::laugh:
i will agree with you on one thing...."some people are confused about what is fact and what is opinion"

TKO, I'm not going to go into the definition as to what makes an opinion and what makes a fact.

But if I told you Montana was better than Elway, and brought up the Super Bowl success numbers to prove it, does it make my statement any more fact??? No.

You statement is an opinion. Try to justify your opinion all you want with numbers however you feel they apply. Thats fine. If thats how you want to quantify your opinion, more power to you. But that doesn't mean your opinion is fact. It just means its your opinion with some numbers you are using to back-up your thoughts.

You said that Orton played the position of QB better then Cutler. Thats an opinion... pure and simple. There is MUCH more to that statement than numbers that you are throwing around.

[NightTrainLayne]

Great read, and a fun article. Good work.

When the trade happened, I don't think anyone was surprised that we were taking Tebow with it. Prior to the trade being announced it would have been considered surprising to some, but there was no question who we were moving around to get.

[T.K.O.]

TKO, I'm not going to go into the definition as to what makes an opinion and what makes a fact.

But if I told you Montana was better than Elway, and brought up the Super Bowl success numbers to prove it, does it make my statement any more fact??? No.

You statement is an opinion. Try to justify your opinion all you want with numbers however you feel they apply. Thats fine. If thats how you want to quantify your opinion, more power to you. But that doesn't mean your opinion is fact. It just means its your opinion with some numbers you are using to back-up your thoughts.

You said that Orton played the position of QB better then Cutler. Thats an opinion... pure and simple. There is MUCH more to that statement than numbers that you are throwing around.

but again i ask...if qb rating wins and all the other factors i provided are simply opinions,would you also say that it is not a fact that brees had a better year than say.......russell ?
i mean where do we draw the line of what is fact and what is opinion?
are the #'s used to rate a qb's performance all merely opinion?
i guess if one preferes int's to td's and losses to win's they could be of the opinion that simms was the best qb in the league last year....and that's a fact:laugh:

[Lonestar]

just glad we got him. It looks like he can be something very special.

[Lonestar]

What hype? :confused: They were a pretty good pass blocking team at best but a lot of would be sacks had as much to do with Cutler's ability to move as it did the O line.


Yes they were but could not block for a third and short.

We have not had a quality oline since Zimmerman and Gibbs left. a good one but we have sucked in the red zone since.

The sack totals were over hyped IMHO because of jay and while his picks he threw he put it up many times to avoid a sack.

But as a drop back pass protect or opening holes for short yard well not so hot. Not very consistent at all.

[TXBRONC]

i know but,i think everyone was surprised (and many still are) that we went after him in the first round.so it's safe to say alot of teams expected him to be there in the 2nd/3rd round .so the trading up could have been for any number of players.
it is'nt like the pats said "well if we make this trade the broncos are gonna take tebow at 25 " like i said i think it was a surprise to most if not all involved

I doubt it, I would bet a lot people were not surprised. Tebow was expected to go anywhere from the end of the first round and into the second round. And I mentioned after the draft one mock for sure had him being drafted with the 25th pick. If it was a big surprise to most of the fans on this board and beat writers for the D.P. why would be that big of surprises to those who are closer to the game than we are?

[Lonestar]

I'm sorry, but that's exactly opposite of the truth, at least on the large scale. Good coaches install their systems and then acquire the players to fit that scheme. You need look no further than some of the elite teams of the last decade (New England, Pittsburgh, Indy...etc) to see that. They all have well established schemes and when they want to acquire a replacement or upgrade they know exactly what skillset they want and need out of a player.

Or for a more close to home example, how about the Shanahan era Broncos? Our offense has more or less been the same system since Shanny came to town and they were pretty much an upper echelon offense for that whole era. On the flip side, our defense was pretty much the poster child for "square peg in a round hole" after Greg Robinson left and even when we had continuity at DC (Coyer) the scheme changed drastically from year to year and once we lost the DC who could make a defense better than the sum of it's parts we were in for a world of hurt.

And even now, Tebow is a perfect example of this. When McDaniels opened up his offense in 2007, alot of it was based off the Gator's spread system, and now he's acquired the quarterback who ran that offense.

Great post
your preaching to SOME of the choir the rest may never get it.

[Lonestar]

i can help with this one........



RK PLAYER TEAM ATT COMP PCT YDS YDS/A LONG TD INT SACK RATE YDS/G
21 Jay Cutler, QB CHI 555 336 60.5 3666 6.61 71 27 26 35 76.8 229

14 Kyle Orton, QB DEN 541 336 62.1 3802 7.03 87 21 12 29 86.8 238

orton
better comp.%
more yards per game and total for season
better td/int ratio
higher all around qb rating
and better record.......and did that while playing with 2 pretty major injuries and missing some game time.
so.....how do you figure:confused:

you forgot playing from game 7 on with polumbus at ORT and hamilton being replaced leaving casey on a deserted island all by himself a shadow of his former self ..


But you will never convince some that the rocket man is inferior to Orton in any way.

[Tned]

but again i ask...if qb rating wins and all the other factors i provided are simply opinions,would you also say that it is not a fact that brees had a better year than say.......russell ?
i mean where do we draw the line of what is fact and what is opinion?
are the #'s used to rate a qb's performance all merely opinion?
i guess if one preferes int's to td's and losses to win's they could be of the opinion that simms was the best qb in the league last year....and that's a fact:laugh:

I think the stats/numbers are one aspect of judging, but not the end all, be all.

Let's go with paser rating. If you look at the single season passer rating records, Griese is number one, and by a long shot. 10 points higher in 2000 than Elways best year (1998). Was Griese a better QB than Elway?

How about for a Broncos career? Cutler is number one in Broncos career passer rating, ahead of a tightly bunched group with Orton, Brister, Ferrotte (these three have far fewer attempts than the others), Plummer and Griese. Elway is a distant 7th, seven points below Cutler and four points behind 6th place Griese. Did those six guys play QB better than Elway?

You can go on from there, looking at completion percentage, Att/INT ratios, etc., and find that statistically, Griese, Plummer and Cutler were all 'better' QB's than Elway, but we know that wasn't the case.

When judging a QB, you need to look at stats, but also the talent around them, the ability to make plays when needed (put the team on his shoulders), not fold under pressure, avoid turning the ball over at the wrong time, ability to just win, whatever it takes, etc., etc.

I'm not going to try and claim I know who is playing QB better. We have a lot left to see in both of their careers, before that can be decided. In both cases, playing in year two with their new team (even though Cutler's offense is changing) should be a better indication.

Anyway, IMO, stats are part of the story, but not the whole story.

[TXBRONC]

Great post
your preaching to SOME of the choir the rest may never get it.


you forgot playing from game 7 on with polumbus at ORT and hamilton being replaced leaving casey on a deserted island all by himself a shadow of his former self ..


But you will never convince some that the rocket man is inferior to Orton in any way.

SSDD. :tsk:

[Lonestar]

so it's also not a fact that manning or brees had a better year than chris simms?
i mean if #'s and wins dont matter...:confused::laugh:
i will agree with you on one thing...."some people are confused about what is fact and what is opinion"


your trying to school a die hard jay lover his heart will always be with him no logical conversation is going to change his mind not going to happen the rocket man is the greatest and will always be loved by some.

but you have put up some great logical ideas that are undeniable.:salute:

[GGMoogly]

:focus: How about that Tebow?

[Ravage!!!]

but again i ask...if qb rating wins and all the other factors i provided are simply opinions,would you also say that it is not a fact that brees had a better year than say.......russell ?
i mean where do we draw the line of what is fact and what is opinion?
are the #'s used to rate a qb's performance all merely opinion?
i guess if one preferes int's to td's and losses to win's they could be of the opinion that simms was the best qb in the league last year....and that's a fact:laugh:


I see that you don't have a grasp on the definition of what is fact and what is opinion.

Example: If I say that Joe Blow threw 30 TDs, and John Doe threw for only 27, that Joe Blow is the better QB. The numbers used in regards to the TDs thrown are facts, but the statement that Joe is the better QB is opinion.

Now extend that statement to include more numbers. Joe threw more TDs, and his team had more wins, thus he is the better QB. The numbers of the TDs thrown and the team wins are facts, but the statement that he is the better QB is still an opinion.

YOu stated that Orton played the position of QB BETTER than someone else, and backed YOUR opinion up with numbers that YOU feel proves as to why that is true. Others might see that numbers really don't prove squat and only tell part of the story (as some have shown you already)..thus the statement is still blanket, and VERY much still an opinion.

So no matter how many factual numbers you throw into your statement, there is no "fuzzy line" that differentiates what is fact and what is opinion. Your OPINION that Orton played the position of QB better, is STILL an opinion. There is no line to cross or fence to climb over. There is no magical line or need for an arbitrator to decide what is what.

[Ravage!!!]

your trying to school a die hard jay lover his heart will always be with him no logical conversation is going to change his mind not going to happen the rocket man is the greatest and will always be loved by some.

but you have put up some great logical ideas that are undeniable.:salute:

and you are actually trying to suggest that he is "schooling" me when he doesn't have the grasp of the definition, thus making you look like the moron you are attempting to be, purely to pick a fight and bait :laugh: Childish as always Wiz, childish as always.

[T.K.O.]

When judging a QB, you need to look at stats, but also the talent around them, the ability to make plays when needed (put the team on his shoulders), not fold under pressure, avoid turning the ball over at the wrong time, ability to just win, whatever it takes, etc., etc.

I'm not going to try and claim I know who is playing QB better. We have a lot left to see in both of their careers, before that can be decided. In both cases, playing in year two with their new team (even though Cutler's offense is changing) should be a better indication.

Anyway, IMO, stats are part of the story, but not the whole story.

exactly and that's why i said orton had a better year.....not that he was a better qb.
i have'nt seen either put a team on their backs and carry them.and niether could hold a candle to what elway accomplished....not yet anyway:salute:

[Tned]

:focus: How about that Tebow?

I think in the flood of off topic posts, your post might have been lost. Here's a bump to help out.

[T.K.O.]

I see that you don't have a grasp on the definition of what is fact and what is opinion.

Example: If I say that Joe Blow threw 30 TDs, and John Doe threw for only 27, that Joe Blow is the better QB. The numbers used in regards to the TDs thrown are facts, but the statement that Joe is the better QB is opinion.

Now extend that statement to include more numbers. Joe threw more TDs, and his team had more wins, thus he is the better QB. The numbers of the TDs thrown and the team wins are facts, but the statement that he is the better QB is still an opinion.

YOu stated that Orton played the position of QB BETTER than someone else, and backed YOUR opinion up with numbers that YOU feel proves as to why that is true. Others might see that numbers really don't prove squat and only tell part of the story (as some have shown you already)..thus the statement is still blanket, and VERY much still an opinion.

So no matter how many factual numbers you throw into your statement, there is no "fuzzy line" that differentiates what is fact and what is opinion. Your OPINION that Orton played the position of QB better, is STILL an opinion. There is no line to cross or fence to climb over. There is no magical line or need for an arbitrator to decide what is what.

so answer the question....is it not a fact that brees was a better qb last year than simms?
if so how is that determined

[Ravage!!!]

so answer the question....is it not a fact that brees was a better qb last year than simms?
if so how is that determined

Dude, this question just absolutely shows that you still don't get it :laugh:

[Tned]

:focus: How about that Tebow?

One more time for poops and giggles (trying to clean up my language)...

[T.K.O.]

Dude, this question just absolutely shows that you still don't get it :laugh:

is that your opinion or a fact ?:laugh::salute:

[Dreadnought]

I think the stats/numbers are one aspect of judging, but not the end all, be all.

Let's go with paser rating. If you look at the single season passer rating records, Griese is number one, and by a long shot. 10 points higher in 2000 than Elways best year (1998). Was Griese a better QB than Elway?

How about for a Broncos career? Cutler is number one in Broncos career passer rating, ahead of a tightly bunched group with Orton, Brister, Ferrotte (these three have far fewer attempts than the others), Plummer and Griese. Elway is a distant 7th, seven points below Cutler and four points behind 6th place Griese. Did those six guys play QB better than Elway?

You can go on from there, looking at completion percentage, Att/INT ratios, etc., and find that statistically, Griese, Plummer and Cutler were all 'better' QB's than Elway, but we know that wasn't the case.

When judging a QB, you need to look at stats, but also the talent around them, the ability to make plays when needed (put the team on his shoulders), not fold under pressure, avoid turning the ball over at the wrong time, ability to just win, whatever it takes, etc., etc.

I'm not going to try and claim I know who is playing QB better. We have a lot left to see in both of their careers, before that can be decided. In both cases, playing in year two with their new team (even though Cutler's offense is changing) should be a better indication.

Anyway, IMO, stats are part of the story, but not the whole story.


Valid point as far as it goes, T. OTOH, numbers will tell a story - its all a matter of interpreting what those numbers mean. To take your example, Brian Griese in 2000 put on a personal show of QB play, for just that one year, better than any of Elway's years. He didn't finish the season, and he never recovered from the shoulder injury, but he was damned good and fun to watch that one year. His career pales before Elway, but don't knock him in 2000. The contrast in Plummer's QB ratings from 2005 to 2006 tell a clear story too. Stats are a useful thing, just not the only valid measurement.

[GGMoogly]

You know what we need? A Most Fun to Watch category for QBs. It would be based on the number of OMGs and WTFs per game. Elway, for example, would be the league all-time leader in OMGs - at least two to three a game even when he was stinking it up. Brady, OTOH, while certainly a HOFer, would rank pretty low. Just thinkin' out loud...

[T.K.O.]

You know what we need? A Most Fun to Watch category for QBs. It would be based on the number of OMGs and WTFs per game. Elway, for example, would be the league all-time leader in OMGs - at least two to three a game even when he was stinking it up. Brady, OTOH, while certainly a HOFer, would rank pretty low. Just thinkin' out loud...

I REALLY LIKED THIS ONE........

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LaLCEooYto4&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LaLCEooYto4&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[wbmustang]

When I saw the trades to move up, I know I was staring at the screen saying... "oh man, we re moving up to get Tebow." Wasn't shocked. Wasn't surprised. The regime needed to make a splash after the loss of talent in the last two offseasons, and this could buy an extra year.

I feel you as soon as the trades started I said this has Tim Tebow written all over it and looked what happened. As a FSU fan I totally didn't like him but that's because he has absolutely OWNED the Seminoles during his career there. We will see what happens about adjusting to the pros but he is a flat out winner.

[TXBRONC]

I feel you as soon as the trades started I said this has Tim Tebow written all over it and looked what happened. As a FSU fan I totally didn't like him but that's because he has absolutely OWNED the Seminoles during his career there. We will see what happens about adjusting to the pros but he is a flat out winner.

Agreed, and just because some talking head says he'll fail doesn't mean he will.

[underrated29]

Clearly NE didn't want him as they were our trading partner on the deal. If NE wanted Tebow at all they wouldn't have traded.

I could be switched....


BUT--

I believe we traded with NE for DT....



Tebow came when we traded with Baltimore, Not NE.



I could be mistaken but I dont think so.

[Lonestar]

I could be switched....


BUT--

I believe we traded with NE for DT....



Tebow came when we traded with Baltimore, Not NE.



I could be mistaken but I dont think so.

Unless jonh mackey is the new GM in NE you are on the money with this one.

The monday or very earlier Tuesday morning I predicted he would be a bronco. Based on the visit on monday.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[pnbronco]

No one is right or wrong yet, the dude has yet to take a snap in a meaningful NFL game.

But since he is a Bronco he gets a free pass from me. Go Tebow!:salute:

Totally agree Shake. I hope he works out in the long run because he is a Bronco, but all this fuss and Jersey's just seem strange to me at this point.

Man I can hardly wait till camp, where we have something to see and read about again......:frusty:

(MS Mr. Luckyhorn....really...would love to hear the story on that one....:D)

[Bosco]

The NFCN is much tougher as a division then the AFCW was. Not when it comes to pass defense. The AFCW (not including Denver) had the 7th, 11th and 22nd ranked pass defenses compared to 5th, 19th and 32nd in the NFCN where they faced interception king Jay Cutler.


Denver had a REAL WR with NFL experience. Chicago had hardly anything at WR. They also had an established offense in place while we were installing a whole new system.


The closest comparison you could make is Cutler and the 08 Broncos vs Orton and the 09 Broncos. One was in charge of a unit riddled by injuries, on his 8th RB and did quite well-2nd ranked O for yards.

The other had a first round RB talent, far less injuries, much the same unit, and didn't put up near the numbers Cutler did. Over the first 8 games (pre-Orton injury) Kyle had a better passer rating than Cutler, 89.9 vs 88.9.

Its a stupid argument. To say that Orton is better than Cutler is dumb. I never said that Orton was better, just that he outperformed Cutler, which is a cold hard statistical fact.



I don't think either one of us knows for sure, but I don't see any resemblance of truth to that whatsover.

NE's offense was based on moving the offensive formation around before the snap after the read (something Tebow never did once in college), and then creating adjustments with the WR's choosing 1 or 2/3 routes based on the given defense.

Tebow never once made pro reads before the snap (the offense at Florida didn't require it), and was entirely based on utilizing the speed of the players (using the long side of the field). The WR's were given their only route, and their was absolutely no reading involved on the defense from the QB or WR's.

There are literally hundreds of variations of the spread right now. Tebow stood 4 yards behind center at Florida to utilize a quicker point of attack, where the NFL QB stands 5-6 yards back to allow a created point.

The depth behind center won't be an issue for Tebow to adjust too, but it's one way of showing just how different shotgun formations and the spread offense are nowadays. Josh McDaniels himself talked about copying alot of traits from Florida's offense when he was with New England. This article from last year describes it in better detail.

http://www.footballtimes.org/Article.asp?ID=217


After the New England Patriots 2004 season, coach Bill Belicheck and offensive coordinator Josh McDaniels went to Gainesville, Florida to meet with Urban Meyer, scout some of his offensive players and discuss the spread option with him. Over the next few years, they would form a great bond and change the New England Patriots offensive attack from an old, smashmouth, Earhardt-Perkins offense left over from the Charlie Weiss and Bill Parcells era, to a new spread attack. The rest is history!

The 2007 New England Patriots went on to break every offensive NFL record with this new spread attack. They grew tired of stumbling into super bowls and barely winning them by three points. They wanted the offense to be explosive and be able to dictate to the defense. If you watch their offense, they use multiple formations to run the same plays, similar to Meyer's spread. The exception is that the NFL quarterback can't run. At least, not yet.

It will be interesting to see how coach Josh McDaniels implements his offense in Denver. With all the new offensive weapons (great wide receivers, great tight ends, great full back and running back), the best pass-blocking offensive line in all of football, and Kyle Orton at the helm (played in Purdue's spread offense), Josh will have every opportunity to continue the spread offense he began in New England.

Of course, in the NFL, the quarterback doesn't usually run, so you are always playing 10 versus 11. But this may change with the new "wildcat" that the Miami Dolphins have adopted. They also went on to draft Pat White, who ran the West Virginia spread offense with coach Rich Rodriguez. It will be interesting to see what they decide to do with their new talents.

[MasterShake]

Totally agree Shake. I hope he works out in the long run because he is a Bronco, but all this fuss and Jersey's just seem strange to me at this point.

Man I can hardly wait till camp, where we have something to see and read about again......:frusty:

(MS Mr. Luckyhorn....really...would love to hear the story on that one....:D)

Mr. Luckyhorn comes from the P & R forum that I haunt far too often in the offseason. He is the physical manisfitation of my overly idealistic "liberal" views. And he has glitter poop!:lol:

[Dreadnought]

Mr. Luckyhorn comes from the P & R forum that I haunt far too often in the offseason. He is the physical manisfitation of my overly idealistic "liberal" views. And he has glitter poop!:lol:

Poor Mr. Luckyhorn....

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff211/Lundbergm/canned-unicorn-meat.jpg

[pnbronco]

Mr. Luckyhorn comes from the P & R forum that I haunt far too often in the offseason. He is the physical manisfitation of my overly idealistic "liberal" views. And he has glitter poop!:lol:

Dude that's priceless, I'm trying not to fall out of my chair from laughing.

I had one of those days where nothing went right and took twice as long to do as I had planned. So THANK YOU, I really needed this.........:D

(I like the term haunt)

[GGMoogly]

Poor Mr. Luckyhorn....



http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/3467/2480311480100068365S600x600Q85.jpg

[jhildebrand]

They also had an established offense in place while we were installing a whole new system.


There's the excuse that is granted everytime to the offense again! Does it work for the D? :confused: NOPE!

Does it work for other teams? :confused: NOPE!

It only works in context of McD and the O.

I would argue that a QB as a signal caller being new to an established system is no different than installing a system.


I never said that Orton was better, just that he outperformed Cutler, which is a cold hard statistical fact.


Again twisting things to fit your argument when its convenient. Of course it's a better comparison to compare the 08 O against the 09 O. Yet you guys insist on trying to say it isn't apples to apples! Gee....I wonder why? Both units were virtually the same. The difference is Cutler with the same unit that Orton had (* I would argue worse due to the injuries and certainly didn't have the D Orton had) WAY OUT PERFORMED ORTON!

The double standard is old already! You guys throw out all these excuses for McDaniels as mentioned above but once it is used against McD in any way it is "apples and bananas."

[jhildebrand]

I also recall Tebow's agent declaring, just before the start of the draft, that his "client" would go in the first.

[gobroncsnv]

http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/3467/2480311480100068365S600x600Q85.jpg

is that what you get when you cross a unicorn with ET?

[Jagsbch]

I don't think 90% of "experts" are. And as I posted already, I think Kiper created a huge echo chamber by coming out so early about Tebow (his sophomore year). Rather than let the player show what he could do, he put a negative opinion on record and got married to his own opinion. Then that became the "safe" position for television pundits and even scouts.

It takes courage to say "don't listen to them, Tebow's good." It's psychologically easier to adopt the negative view, because then you can't look foolish...

So many people are playing their holier than thou I am going with the profesionals card, as if the critics have the market cornered on the professional opinion.

Last I checked, I too am going with the professionals opinions, the opinions that say this...

"Tim Tebow is not only the best quarterback in this league, I think he's the best football player in the country." said Steve Spurrier "...maybe the best to ever play college football. That's how good he is."

The professionals who said Tebow can play QB in the NFL.
The professionals who said Tebow is first round material
The professionals who said Tebow was one of the two best QB's in the draft.
The professionals who are praising Tebows progress as a QB in the NFL.
The professionals who scratch their heads and think that the professionals who said this...

"I don't think Tebow can play in a pro-style offense, not [at] quarterback," Jimmy Johnson said. "I think a team that's gonna look at Tim Tebow. They're gonna make one of two decisions. If they're going to bring him into their style of play, with their coaching staff, they've gotta project him to be maybe an H-back.

"I don't know if he's fast enough to be a receiver, maybe he could be a tight end. [But] I don't know if he can block, I don't know if he can catch the ball. But he's gotta play another position. He can't play quarterback."

...or say this...

"I’d say third or fourth round worst-case scenario," Said Mel Kiper "second round as a best case."

...possess 'an ill-formed and nebulous opinion'.

The opinions of professionals who have actually coached one of the greatest QB's to ever play at this level, win 3 Super Bowls this century and 2 NCAA National Championships the past 4 years, should not be mocked, let alone my opinion which is based somewhat on theirs...

So as you can plainly see those who believe Tebow can be successful in the NFL are not the one's ignoring the professional opinions that count!!

Some of these so-called expert professionals really keep you guessing. I mean which Jimmy Johnson do we believe? The November 2009 Jimmy Johnson, or the January 2009 Jimmy Johnson?

"The more I watch Tebow, the more I think he might be a quarterback," said Jimmy Johnson, former head coach of the Dallas Cowboys. "He has the arm strength. He makes accurate throws. He has the physical presence. He can get you believing."

How Bout Them Denver Broncos~!!

I couldn't resist writing another article about it~!! (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/416591-denver-broncos-tim-tebow-whose-professional-opinion-can-we-trust)

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/000/985/403/94362510_crop_340x234.jpg?

[TXBRONC]

So many people are playing their holier than thou I am going with the profesionals card, as if the critics have the market cornered on the professional opinion.

Last I checked, I too am going with the professionals opinions, the opinions that say this...

"Tim Tebow is not only the best quarterback in this league, I think he's the best football player in the country." said Steve Spurrier "...maybe the best to ever play college football. That's how good he is."

The professionals who said Tebow can play QB in the NFL.
The professionals who said Tebow is first round material
The professionals who said Tebow was one of the two best QB's in the draft.
The professionals who are praising Tebows progress as a QB in the NFL.
The professionals who scratch their heads and think that the professionals who said this...

"I don't think Tebow can play in a pro-style offense, not [at] quarterback," Jimmy Johnson said. "I think a team that's gonna look at Tim Tebow. They're gonna make one of two decisions. If they're going to bring him into their style of play, with their coaching staff, they've gotta project him to be maybe an H-back.

"I don't know if he's fast enough to be a receiver, maybe he could be a tight end. [But] I don't know if he can block, I don't know if he can catch the ball. But he's gotta play another position. He can't play quarterback."

...or say this...

"I’d say third or fourth round worst-case scenario," Said Mel Kiper "second round as a best case."

...possess 'an ill-formed and nebulous opinion'.

The opinions of professionals who have actually coached one of the greatest QB's to ever play at this level, win 3 Super Bowls this century and 2 NCAA National Championships the past 4 years, should not be mocked, let alone my opinion which is based somewhat on theirs...

So as you can plainly see those who believe Tebow can be successful in the NFL are not the one's ignoring the professional opinions that count!!

Some of these so-called expert professionals really keep you guessing. I mean which Jimmy Johnson do we believe? The November 2009 Jimmy Johnson, or the January 2009 Jimmy Johnson?

"The more I watch Tebow, the more I think he might be a quarterback," said Jimmy Johnson, former head coach of the Dallas Cowboys. "He has the arm strength. He makes accurate throws. He has the physical presence. He can get you believing."

How Bout Them Denver Broncos~!!

Time will tell who is right and who is wrong as far as the critics are concerned. As I said earlier I'm not going to write him off because of critics but at the same just because guys like Mike Mayock whose opinion I respect immensely says he thinks Tebow can make it but that Mayock will be proven right.

Also I'm sure how Steve Spurrier's comment figures into Tim future as a pro. It looks to like he speaking of Tim solely from Tim's accomplishments as collegiate athlete. He had tremendous success as college quarterback but none of that means he's guaranteed success at the pro level. Since he is a Denver Bronco I want him to succeed I don't know that he will for sure.

[T.K.O.]

while neither the "experts" who say tebow will be great or a bust can possibly know how it will all turn out.
the one constant in the equation is Tebow's history....and that's a history of proving he can play the game,and play it at a level seldom seen.
so while i'm not going to pencil him in at canton....i would'nt bet against the guy exceeding expectations.....AGAIN !:salute:

[Ravage!!!]

while neither the "experts" who say tebow will be great or a bust can't possibly know how it will all turn out.
the one constant in the equation is Tebow's history....and that's a history of proving he can play the game,and play it at a level seldom seen.
so while i'm not going to pencil him in at canton....i would'nt bet against the guy exceeding expectations.....AGAIN !:salute:

That would all depend on where your expectations started. :beer:

[Jagsbch]

Be sure to vote on the poll.

Whose opinion can we trust

Steve Spurrier 35.7%
Mel Kiper 0.0%
Josh McDaniels 21.4%
Pete Prisco 0.0%
Urban Meyer 28.6%
November Jimmy Johnson 0.0%
January Jimmy Johnson 14.3%

Total votes: 14

[TXBRONC]

Be sure to vote on the poll.

Whose opinion can we trust

Steve Spurrier 35.7%
Mel Kiper 0.0%
Josh McDaniels 21.4%
Pete Prisco 0.0%
Urban Meyer 28.6%
November Jimmy Johnson 0.0%
January Jimmy Johnson 14.3%

Total votes: 14

I'm not going to trust Spurrier just because you come up with some poll that says people trust his opinion. From the looks of it what we have here is that the guys that are trustworthy are the ones that only shower compliments on Tebow. That's not trustworthy at all.

Where is this from? Jacksonville's local rag?

[Northman]

I'm not going to trust Spurrier just because you come with some poll that says people trust his opinion. From the looks of it what we have here is that the guys that are trustworthy are the ones that only shower compliments on him. That's not trustworthy at all.



True.

Look, Jags writes some pretty nice articles but lets face it. He is really bias so how much stock can you really put into what he says? He's a diehard Gator fans so what do you really expect him to say? Its one thing if he followed the Seminoles or something but come on.

[Jagsbch]

Put up or shut up, stop attacking the messenger, because that is the only point you can conjure to try and demonize the point. that is so lame. get a clue:mad:

[T.K.O.]

Put up or shut up, stop attacking the messenger, because that is the only point you can conjure to try and demonize the point. that is so lame. get a clue:mad:

don't sweat it man.just keep on keepin' on.i for one think your articles are insightful and well written.
i always enjoy looking at the positive aspect's of a situation and like i said at this point, history has shown that there is a better chance tebow will succeed than fail.
:salute:

[underrated29]

yeah jags, keep it going....There is nothing else to read or talk about. Plus I like positive thinking. Gets me excited for the season.

Since you dont know me jags, I do not watch college football. The only college teams I like are the home teams or hockey teams. But I did watch tebows highlights many times over and I am with you. I think he will be a great QB! Yes, some bias from me as he is a bronco. But other than that not. And I love the guy.

[Northman]

Put up or shut up, stop attacking the messenger, because that is the only point you can conjure to try and demonize the point. that is so lame. get a clue:mad:

No one is attacking you as i said your articles are well written. You bring up some fine points but lets be honest, you are a big Gators fan which brings a bias into your viewpoints. Doesnt mean your wrong in your observations but lets face it, all that stuff was done in college and means nothing on the pro level. I hope the guy works out as it would benefit my team greatly if he did. But its a wait and see approach i take because ive heard the same song and dance for many players coming out of the draft. Tebow is no exception.

[jhildebrand]

... all that stuff was done in college and means nothing on the pro level.

Anyone who doubts that should simply look at Elway's, Brady's, Marino's, etc... amazing accomplishments in college.

Shoot even Peyton Manning didn't have the success Tebow had. Nate Hybl and Josh Heupel did and we all know how that worked out.

No sense in arguing until he snaps the ball a couple hundred times in games that count.

[Lonestar]

Put up or shut up, stop attacking the messenger, because that is the only point you can conjure to try and demonize the point. that is so lame. get a clue:mad:


don't sweat it man.just keep on keepin' on.i for one think your articles are insightful and well written.
i always enjoy looking at the positive aspect's of a situation and like i said at this point, history has shown that there is a better chance tebow will succeed than fail.
:salute:


yeah jags, keep it going....There is nothing else to read or talk about. Plus I like positive thinking. Gets me excited for the season.

Since you dont know me jags, I do not watch college football. The only college teams I like are the home teams or hockey teams. But I did watch tebows highlights many times over and I am with you. I think he will be a great QB! Yes, some bias from me as he is a bronco. But other than that not. And I love the guy.

do not let the naysayers get you down.

many of us are interested in this kid from a land far away from most of us.

I knew nothing about the kid other than what I heard from the other naysayers. Until I talked with a kid my daughter was dating, who is a huge Gator fan he gave me some data that was not forth coming from kipper et al.

He turned my ideas around on him and I really dismissed him as our QB or drafting him as one till I really saw what was going on a couple of days before the draft. I believed it was all a smoke screen like we used to see from mikey. Actually no one ever had a clue on what mikey was going to do.

The more i heard and saw of this kid the more impressed I became.

Now will all of his accomplishments carry over to the NFL God only knows but Tim seems to be right with him so just maybe he will be the one that finally replaces John in all Broncos fans hearts.. Except for those few that still think that JC means jay cutler not Jesus Christ.

I look forward to the day that he is playing for us as starter. and that is not a slap at Orton because I could not ask for a guy that is more dedicated to making it go here in DEN, It is because he will never be the next Elway for that matter the next jay for lots of fans or the media and we all know how hard that has to be.

[Ravage!!!]

What other left handed QB has won two National Titles in college recently? *cough*

[TXBRONC]

Put up or shut up, stop attacking the messenger, because that is the only point you can conjure to try and demonize the point. that is so lame. get a clue:mad:

Jags it seem like you're trying to sell a horse we've already bought. It is suspicious when you put in poll and the guys that are trustworthy are the ones that have nothing but nice things to say about him. It's biased poll you know it. It doesn't take a genius to figure out whose who on that poll if you know anything about the Broncos or college football in Florida. The guy with highest percentage is a Gator legend as both a player and coach. The next highest is the current Gators coach, then the head coach current head coach. The only reason Jimmy Johnson got any votes at all is because he changed his tune. The others got no votes because they were critical of him.

Taking every little criticism or perceived criticism of Tim personally isn't productive. I think most die hard Broncos fans are going to give him chance and a lot of them are also going be about cautious him. So if you push to hard people will resent it.

I've seen this kind of thing happen before and when player with a huge following was drafted by the Broncos that's when they became "fans" of the Broncos. When he was cut they left. In the interim a verbal war broke out because the hero worshipers kept on selling the guy and it got old in hurry.

[silkamilkamonico]

So many people are playing their holier than thou I am going with the profesionals card, as if the critics have the market cornered on the professional opinion.

Last I checked, I too am going with the professionals opinions, the opinions that say this...

"Tim Tebow is not only the best quarterback in this league, I think he's the best football player in the country." said Steve Spurrier "...maybe the best to ever play college football. That's how good he is."

The professionals who said Tebow can play QB in the NFL.
The professionals who said Tebow is first round material
The professionals who said Tebow was one of the two best QB's in the draft.
The professionals who are praising Tebows progress as a QB in the NFL.
The professionals who scratch their heads and think that the professionals who said this...

"I don't think Tebow can play in a pro-style offense, not [at] quarterback," Jimmy Johnson said. "I think a team that's gonna look at Tim Tebow. They're gonna make one of two decisions. If they're going to bring him into their style of play, with their coaching staff, they've gotta project him to be maybe an H-back.

"I don't know if he's fast enough to be a receiver, maybe he could be a tight end. [But] I don't know if he can block, I don't know if he can catch the ball. But he's gotta play another position. He can't play quarterback."

...or say this...

"I’d say third or fourth round worst-case scenario," Said Mel Kiper "second round as a best case."

...possess 'an ill-formed and nebulous opinion'.

The opinions of professionals who have actually coached one of the greatest QB's to ever play at this level, win 3 Super Bowls this century and 2 NCAA National Championships the past 4 years, should not be mocked, let alone my opinion which is based somewhat on theirs...

So as you can plainly see those who believe Tebow can be successful in the NFL are not the one's ignoring the professional opinions that count!!

Some of these so-called expert professionals really keep you guessing. I mean which Jimmy Johnson do we believe? The November 2009 Jimmy Johnson, or the January 2009 Jimmy Johnson?

"The more I watch Tebow, the more I think he might be a quarterback," said Jimmy Johnson, former head coach of the Dallas Cowboys. "He has the arm strength. He makes accurate throws. He has the physical presence. He can get you believing."?[/IMG]

How convenient of you to leave out Trent Dilfer's opinions on Tebow, who's been right about virtually every QB coming in to the NFL since he's been an analyst..

[silkamilkamonico]

What other left handed QB has won two National Titles in college recently? *cough*


*cough*MattLienert*cough*

[T.K.O.]

How convenient of you to leave out Trent Dilfer's opinions on Tebow, who's been right about virtually every QB coming in to the NFL since he's been an analyst..

Dilfer.....what did he have to say about the kid?

[silkamilkamonico]

Josh McDaniels himself talked about copying alot of traits from Florida's offense when he was with New England. This article from last year describes it in better detail.

Touche.

I still think I've been decieved by McDaniels, and he's going to try and implement a power running offense, especially with the drafting of Tim Tebow, who's best trait is probably running with the ball and making plays.

[WARHORSE]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/306130-dont-be-so-fast-to-say-tim-tebow-cant-be-an-nfl-qb

This is an article comparing Tebow to David Garrard.

Interesting comparison.


While I dont agree with all of it, and believe the same author would write differently today about Tebow, I still think the similarities in ability are interesting.

[TXBRONC]

Touche.

I still think I've been decieved by McDaniels, and he's going to try and implement a power running offense, especially with the drafting of Tim Tebow, who's best trait is probably running with the ball and making plays.

I've sure how you can be decieved when he said he was going to implement a power running game.

[silkamilkamonico]

I've sure how you can be decieved when he said he was going to implement a power running game.

I thought we were getting this all out aeriel attack that he had with the Patriots. I never heard anything about a power running game from him.

The power running game sucks. SuperBowl contenders, and even more importantly winners, don't have power running games. They have pass friendly offenses led by great QB's that fit the scheme.

It's a pass friendly NFL these days. Take advantage of it.

[silkamilkamonico]

Dilfer.....what did he have to say about the kid?

Dilfer said it would take at least 3 years, and a 100% effort on coaching a QB who isn't even going to see the field anytime soon. He went a step further and said the one factor that separates QB's from average to great, are the ones that can work in a very tight space (closed pocket). In tape review he said Tebow made all his plays in a wide open no pressure situation (which no QB has in the NFL), and was very bad working in tight space.

For the sake of my Broncos, I hope Dilfer is wrong, but he's been spot on every QB coming into the draft. When he became a part time analyst in 2005 while finishing his career with SF, he was on an island on saying Aaron Rodgers would one day be one of the better QB's in the NFL. He's been right on basically every QB since.

[T.K.O.]

Dilfer said it would take at least 3 years, and a 100% effort on coaching a QB who isn't even going to see the field anytime soon. He went a step further and said the one factor that separates QB's from average to great, are the ones that can work in a very tight space (closed pocket). In tape review he said Tebow made all his plays in a wide open no pressure situation (which no QB has in the NFL), and was very bad working in tight space.

For the sake of my Broncos, I hope Dilfer is wrong, but he's been spot on every QB coming into the draft. When he became a part time analyst in 2005 while finishing his career with SF, he was on an island on saying Aaron Rodgers would one day be one of the better QB's in the NFL. He's been right on basically every QB since.

yeah....i dont think he was on any island.rodgers was pretty much projected to go in the upper 1/2 of round 1.and he actually slipped to 24.
he had many of the intangibles that people speak of when talking about tebow.
here's a clip from the draft about Aaron

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[TXBRONC]

I thought we were getting this all out aeriel attack that he had with the Patriots. I never heard anything about a power running game from him.

The power running game sucks. SuperBowl contenders, and even more importantly winners, don't have power running games. They have pass friendly offenses led by great QB's that fit the scheme.

It's a pass friendly NFL these days. Take advantage of it.

Patriots still run the ball plenty. They've used a power game to compliment their passing attack. Having a power running game doesn't mean you'll pass less. They have three Championships this decade with kind of running game. The Giants and Saints use a power running game and they both won championship. Saints put up the over 500 times but when ran it was basically between the tackle unless Bush was in there.

Something tells me you're trying to stir the pot a little bit.

[T.K.O.]

if you want a great passing attack,you better have a pretty damn good running attack .just ask brett favre how much it helped him to have adrian peterson. or John Elway how important T.D. was to his finally getting that "BLING"
one hand washes the other :beer:

[silkamilkamonico]

Patriots still run the ball plenty. They've used a power game to compliment their passing attack. Having a power running game doesn't mean you'll pass less. They have three Championships this decade with kind of running game. The Giants and Saints use a power running game and they both won championship. Saints put up the over 500 times but when ran it was basically between the tackle unless Bush was in there.

Something tells me you're trying to stir the pot a little bit.



When I said "power running game", I should have been more specific and said "predominant power running game". Something tells me McDaniels would be happy with something like a 60/70-40/30 run to pass ratio, which hasn't been anything close to the ratio of SuperBowl contenders/winners.

[silkamilkamonico]

if you want a great passing attack,you better have a pretty damn good running attack .just ask brett favre how much it helped him to have adrian peterson. or John Elway how important T.D. was to his finally getting that "BLING"
one hand washes the other :beer:

More importanty, a great passing attack simply opens up the running game, which has been the more recent trends of superbowl winners. New England. Indianapolis. New Orleans. You have exceptions like New York, but where have they been since they won it? 1 and done in the playoffs?

[silkamilkamonico]

yeah....i dont think he was on any island.rodgers was pretty much projected to go in the upper 1/2 of round 1.and he actually slipped to 24.
he had many of the intangibles that people speak of when talking about tebow.
here's a clip from the draft about Aaron

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Mel Kiper...lmao.

Thanks for starting the entire draft scouting process. Now pass it over to people who know what they're talking about.

[TXBRONC]

When I said "power running game", I should have been more specific and said "predominant power running game". Something tells me McDaniels would be happy with something like a 60/70-40/30 run to pass ratio, which hasn't been anything close to the ratio of SuperBowl contenders/winners.

I'm not about to try and guess what McDaniels idea of balance between run and pass is. I don't think that necessarily true Silk. If a team manage a 50/50 split and can be successful at that doesn't preclude them from being a contender or even winning a Super Bowl.

The Giants in '07 had a 54/46 pass to run ratio percentage. (544/469) That only 75 more passes than runs which works out to about 5 more passes than runs per game. Whatever ratio you have doesn't win you games for you its the personnel you put on the field. That's the only factors it certainly is one of them Friendo. :D

[silkamilkamonico]

I'm not about to try and guess what McDaniels idea of balance between run and pass is. I don't think that necessarily true Silk. If a team manage a 50/50 split and can be successful at that doesn't preclude them from being a contender or even winning a Super Bowl.

The Giants in '07 had a 54/46 pass to run ratio percentage. (544/469) That only 75 more passes than runs which works out to about 5 more passes than runs per game. Whatever ratio you have doesn't win you games for you its the personnel you put on the field. That's the only factors it certainly is one of them Friendo. :D

I'm just purely speculating, but IMHO, Tebow isn't the kind of QB you want dropping back and throwing 25-30+ times a game. I don't see Denver winning on Tebow's arm.

I don't think Denver would be bad under Tebow with some kind of gimmick offense geared around running and Tebow occasionally rolling out and passes, but I cannot envision him at all as a pocket passer. He's just too excitable and impatient in the pocket and wants to make something happen.

The Giants are that exception of winning, and then returning into obscurity. All the consistent SuperBowl contending organizations have a pass oriented scheme with a solid QB to fill that. I think the rules of the NFL in this day and age allow for that to be the most successful.

[T.K.O.]

When I said "power running game", I should have been more specific and said "predominant power running game". Something tells me McDaniels would be happy with something like a 60/70-40/30 run to pass ratio, which hasn't been anything close to the ratio of SuperBowl contenders/winners.

70/30 ? do you really think any team in the NFL could get away with that for more than 2 weeks?:confused:
even if you had the best 3 backs in the league opposing D's would crush you.
i dont remember ever hearing of a team that attempted 70% run plays for any sustained period:confused:

[silkamilkamonico]

70/30 ? do you really think any team in the NFL could get away with that for more than 2 weeks?:confused:
even if you had the best 3 backs in the league opposing D's would crush you.
i dont remember ever hearing of a team that attempted 70% run plays for any sustained period:confused:

60/70-30/40 is a flexible ratio. You're looking at the extreme end of it. IMHO, best case scenario (unless McDaniels does wonders and transforms Tebow into a player no one envisioned) with Tebow, is we have a Vince Young type player, with a Tennessee like offense. They may be successful. with it and win, but I don't think I could bare watching it. It also hasn't helped them win anything of importance in the playoffs.

[T.K.O.]

i think every team in the nfl ,at least for the past decade or 4,has passed at least 55% of the time.
so if mcD has an evil plan to take the league by storm by suddenly being the only head coach to run the ball even 60% (the lowest est. in your theory) i would be shocked.
and i doubt it would be successful.
so i think you can relax;)

[silkamilkamonico]

Tennessee has run more then passed. I looked at their ratio and it's like 55/45. I need to revise my initial ration of 60/70-40/30 to something like 55/45. I miss the Wild Wild West days already.

[T.K.O.]

Tennessee has run more then passed. I looked at their ratio and it's like 55/45. I need to revise my initial ration of 60/70-40/30 to something like 55/45. I miss the Wild Wild West days already.

you mean like this........;) 5 in one night ?

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[Ravage!!!]

Even Tom Brady and Peyton Manning had one of those nights :coffee:

[TXBRONC]

you mean like this........;) 5 in one night ?

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Do you think John never had nights like that? :rolleyes:

[Northman]

Yea, as much as i like to bust on Jay he does have room for improvement and even though he has a lot of nights like that his career is far from over.

[Bosco]

I thought we were getting this all out aeriel attack that he had with the Patriots. I never heard anything about a power running game from him.

The power running game sucks. SuperBowl contenders, and even more importantly winners, don't have power running games. They have pass friendly offenses led by great QB's that fit the scheme.

It's a pass friendly NFL these days. Take advantage of it.

McDaniels makes pretty good use of the run game when it's working.

[T.K.O.]

Do you think John never had night like that? :rolleyes:

they all have....but i can still enjoy watchin' it:D

[Jagsbch]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/306130-dont-be-so-fast-to-say-tim-tebow-cant-be-an-nfl-qb

This is an article comparing Tebow to David Garrard.

Interesting comparison.


While I dont agree with all of it, and believe the same author would write differently today about Tebow, I still think the similarities in ability are interesting.

Just the notion of comparing Tebow to Garrard makes me want to hurl. Garrard is a fumbling bumbling INT freak.

[Jagsbch]

How convenient of you to leave out Trent Dilfer's opinions on Tebow, who's been right about virtually every QB coming in to the NFL since he's been an analyst..

Former NFL quarterback and ESPN analyst Trent Dilfer recently gave a candid assessment of former Oklahoma quarterback Sam Bradford, saying that Bradford "is not even close to the best player in the draft." In the same interview, on ESPN Radio's St. Louis affiliate, Dilfer said that former Notre Dame quarterback Jimmy Clausen is the best prepared to play right away, and that former Texas quarterback Colt McCoy eventually could be the best of the trio.

The assessment of McCoy raised eyebrows, given that McCoy and Dilfer are both clients of Athletes First -- and that Peter King recently said that Dilfer "works with" McCoy. Several blogs, such as JoeBucsFan.com and TheBigLead.com, openly have questioned whether Dilfer has a conflict of interest.

Dilfer ought to secure representation from a firm that does not represent the players that the analyst will be evaluating (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/07/trent-dilfer-denies-conflict-of-interest-regarding-colt-mccoy/):D

[Northman]

"I'm gonna to speak the way I see it regardless of who Dave represents," Dilfer said. "I'm only gonna tell the truth."

Dilfer seems pretty straight forward to me.

[Ravage!!!]

Dilfer seems pretty straight forward to me.

I'm betting if Dilfer said something complimentary towards Tebow, his "conflict of interests" wouldn't have been mentioned.

[Jagsbch]

Dilfer said it would take at least 3 years, and a 100% effort on coaching a QB who isn't even going to see the field anytime soon. He went a step further and said the one factor that separates QB's from average to great, are the ones that can work in a very tight space (closed pocket). In tape review he said Tebow made all his plays in a wide open no pressure situation (which no QB has in the NFL), and was very bad working in tight space.

For the sake of my Broncos, I hope Dilfer is wrong, but he's been spot on every QB coming into the draft. When he became a part time analyst in 2005 while finishing his career with SF, he was on an island on saying Aaron Rodgers would one day be one of the better QB's in the NFL. He's been right on basically every QB since.

Here is a video that proves that what we are dealing with here is clearly a conflict of interest. You have to be a complete deranged moron to try and convince anyone with a clue that "Tebow made all his plays in a wide open no pressure situation"

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OsditoWmwNM&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OsditoWmwNM&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

This is a small sampling of just 29 passing TD's; Tebow threw 88. Tebow threw for nearly 9,300 yards, while breaking the standing NCAA Division 1A passer efficiency record. Now a QB who does not do well in a tight pocket, could never break that record. NEVER~!!


42 seconds pocket collapsing TD throws an 8 yard TD pass
56 seconds two defenders in his face, result 42 yard TD pass before getting killed.
1:07 3 defenders in his face 45 yard TD pass
1:48 13 yard TD pass before getting sandwiched
2:00 3 guys in his face chasing him down TD pass
2:05 Pocket collapsed TD runs it in for a TD
2:38 the pocket completely collapses Tebroke breaks free from defender 20 yard TD pass
3:00 Pocket collapses Tebow elludes 2 defnders in his face 8 yard TD pass
3:17 pocket collapses Tebow tosses a 13 yard TD pass before being pummeled to the ground
3:40 defender directly in Tebows face as pocket collapses 28 yard TD pass
4:01 Pocket collapses Tebow buys time while being chased 30 yard TD pass
4:20 pocket nearly collapsing 30 yard TD pass
4:24 pocket collapsing 25 yards TD pass
4:32 pocket disentigrates instantly after the snap, Tebow runs 30 yards for a TD while dragginf a few defenders into the endzone
4:43 defender blazing at Tebow sidesteps to avoid the hit in time to make a 50 yard TD pass
4:50 pocket collapsing Tebow steps up to make a 15 yard TD pass
5:00 steps up into the pocket to make a 38 yard TD pass.

[T.K.O.]

all i can say after watching that is.....LOOK OUT NFL.....here comes TEBOW !
the guy has the power of a good nfl RB and shows good touch on those passes.i dont think he is quite the "project" he has been made out to be:beer:

[silkamilkamonico]

Here is a video that proves that what we are dealing with here is clearly a conflict of interest. You have to be a complete deranged moron to try and convince anyone with a clue that "Tebow made all his plays in a wide open no pressure situation"

YOUTUBE VIDEO TITLED TEBOWS 51 TD'S (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsditoWmwNM)

This is a small sampling of just 29 passing TD's; Tebow threw 88. Tebow threw for nearly 9,300 yards, while breaking the standing NCAA Division 1A passer efficiency record. Now a QB who does not do well in a tight pocket, could never break that record. NEVER~!!


42 seconds pocket collapsing TD throws an 8 yard TD pass
56 seconds two defenders in his face, result 42 yard TD pass before getting killed.
1:07 3 defenders in his face 45 yard TD pass
1:48 13 yard TD pass before getting sandwiched
2:00 3 guys in his face chasing him down TD pass
2:05 Pocket collapsed TD runs it in for a TD
2:38 the pocket completely collapses Tebroke breaks free from defender 20 yard TD pass
3:00 Pocket collapses Tebow elludes 2 defnders in his face 8 yard TD pass
3:17 pocket collapses Tebow tosses a 13 yard TD pass before being pummeled to the ground
3:40 defender directly in Tebows face as pocket collapses 28 yard TD pass
4:01 Pocket collapses Tebow buys time while being chased 30 yard TD pass
4:20 pocket nearly collapsing 30 yard TD pass
4:24 pocket collapsing 25 yards TD pass
4:32 pocket disentigrates instantly after the snap, Tebow runs 30 yards for a TD while dragginf a few defenders into the endzone
4:43 defender blazing at Tebow sidesteps to avoid the hit in time to make a 50 yard TD pass
4:50 pocket collapsing Tebow steps up to make a 15 yard TD pass
5:00 steps up into the pocket to make a 38 yard TD pass.


Tim Tebow played in every one of his games at FLorida with players that were all better, and more talented than the opposing team. The Florida team the last couple years has been regarded as having some of the fastest players ever assembled on the same team, and everyone knows speed dominates in college football because of the wideness of the hashmarks. You're absolutely foolish if you completely disreguard that.

And LMAO at you trying to argue a guy that watched film of every single snap Tebow took in college, and then forming opinions on that. You are showing merely a highlight reel of his throws. Tebow made plays in college, just like 100% of the other QB's ever drafted, or signed via free agency. Let's not sit here and pretend he is the polar opposite of weaknesses giving to him from NFL analysts. Even Jamarcus Russell has had first down scrambles in his LSU days.

[T.K.O.]

Tim Tebow played in every one of his games at FLorida with players that were all better, and more talented than the opposing team. .

and he was one of them;)

[silkamilkamonico]

and he was one of them;)

Tebow is an exceptional athlete, for sure!

[silkamilkamonico]

you mean like this........;) 5 in one night ?

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I remember Peyton manning throwing 6 in one night.

[elsid13]

If Al Davis had draft him, would some of you be claiming that experts were wrong about Tebow?

[GGMoogly]

Here is a video that proves that what we are dealing with here is clearly a conflict of interest. You have to be a complete deranged moron to try and convince anyone with a clue that "Tebow made all his plays in a wide open no pressure situation"

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OsditoWmwNM&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OsditoWmwNM&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

This is a small sampling of just 29 passing TD's; Tebow threw 88. Tebow threw for nearly 9,300 yards, while breaking the standing NCAA Division 1A passer efficiency record. Now a QB who does not do well in a tight pocket, could never break that record. NEVER~!!


42 seconds pocket collapsing TD throws an 8 yard TD pass
56 seconds two defenders in his face, result 42 yard TD pass before getting killed.
1:07 3 defenders in his face 45 yard TD pass
1:48 13 yard TD pass before getting sandwiched
2:00 3 guys in his face chasing him down TD pass
2:05 Pocket collapsed TD runs it in for a TD
2:38 the pocket completely collapses Tebroke breaks free from defender 20 yard TD pass
3:00 Pocket collapses Tebow elludes 2 defnders in his face 8 yard TD pass
3:17 pocket collapses Tebow tosses a 13 yard TD pass before being pummeled to the ground
3:40 defender directly in Tebows face as pocket collapses 28 yard TD pass
4:01 Pocket collapses Tebow buys time while being chased 30 yard TD pass
4:20 pocket nearly collapsing 30 yard TD pass
4:24 pocket collapsing 25 yards TD pass
4:32 pocket disentigrates instantly after the snap, Tebow runs 30 yards for a TD while dragginf a few defenders into the endzone
4:43 defender blazing at Tebow sidesteps to avoid the hit in time to make a 50 yard TD pass
4:50 pocket collapsing Tebow steps up to make a 15 yard TD pass
5:00 steps up into the pocket to make a 38 yard TD pass.


THAT. WAS. AWESOME! :jaw:

[T.K.O.]

If Al Davis had draft him, would some of you be claiming that experts were wrong about Tebow?

if davis drafted him i would ....
A) assume he was overdue to get one right

B) be terrified that the raiders are about to take over the division


but he did'nt so i'm not:elefant:

[GGMoogly]

If Al Davis had draft him, would some of you be claiming that experts were wrong about Tebow?

Hmmm...the Prince of Darkness drafting tebow :pound: