Woody's Mailbag: No need to rush to re-sign Broncos' star pass rusher

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15361798

If the Broncos' Elvis Dumervil is badly shorted on his contract, what will that do to the team's morale? Champ Bailey says the Broncos need Elvis. Will this affect future signings of quality players?

— Mike Lee, Santa Fe, N.M.

Mike: I heard the other day that my late friend from Memphis, Tenn., the other Elvis, made more money last year in spite of the recession (depression) than he ever did alive. Toward the end of his life, E.P. was playing Vegas for a pittance — about $100,000 a week — because his manager, Tom Parker, owed so much to the casinos. He shorted Elvis to pay off his debts.

There wasn't as much concern about the singing Elvis then as the sacking Elvis now. Denver's Elvis will make more guaranteed money in bonuses and salary in a four-year period than the other Elvis did in a similar span. Elvis Dumervil is not leaving the building.

According to someone who knows and is close to the talks, the negotiations are ongoing regularly between the Broncos and Dumervil, there's no reason to panic and the numbers will not be discussed publicly until the deal is done. Yes, they are far apart. Yes, they are getting closer.

I sincerely don't understand all the uproar on a couple of levels. "Doom" is not a free agent; he is tied to the Broncos for another season. The Broncos are not going to let him go this year, and there's still more than a month until training camp starts.

So how do you know if Dumervil will be badly shorted on his contract? Would $50 million be short? You could buy a lot of turquoise jewelry and Peña art in Santa Fe for that kind of money.

Elvis has signed the team's tender; nobody else signed him as a restricted free agent and, from what I'm told, negotiations are businesslike.

But most everybody else in the public and the press seem to be bent all out of shape that a contract wasn't agreed to in June. It's an unusual year, as I keep saying, because there's no contract between the NFL and the players association in place.

What's going on in Denver with Elvis is going on in every other city in the league. Champ says the Broncos need Elvis. A chump like me says they need Elvis. I feel quite certain this deal will get done by Aug. 10, and you can go back to worrying about the economy for people not named Elvis.

This won't affect the Broncos' signings of quality players in the future. It hasn't affected them in the past or in the present. Oh, bring up Brandon Marshall. They didn't sign him for one reason, and everyone, including the Dolphins now, knows why.

I've just gone back and looked at the Broncos' negotiations with players in the past while Pat Bowlen has been the owner (since 1984). They have signed dozens of high-priced veterans to new, big contracts. They rarely sign restricted free agents to new contracts. They have lost approximately 40 unrestricted free agents since 1993 (averaging a little over two per year).

Out of that group, fewer than 10 were what you might consider impact players — four-time Pro Bowler Trevor Pryce, Jason Elam, Bertrand Berry and Reggie Hayward (he did have 10-1/2 sacks his last year here). Shannon Sharpe left after the 1999 season to sign with Baltimore (and returned to end his career).

You might, if you insist, include Montae Reagor, Shane Dronett, Ted Washington, Ian Gold and, earlier, Bill Romanowski and Steve Atwater.

The Broncos have lost a few star players. They have also signed a lot of quality players (and many duds) who were free agents. Domonique Foxworth and Karl Paymah recently wanted bigger contracts. The Broncos traded Foxworth and Paymah became a free agent.

The most notable acrimonious negotiations were with Clinton Portis. He wanted a new contract. The Broncos traded him for Champ Bailey. I would guess that deal worked out for the Broncos more than for Washington because Champ is an annual all-pro and Portis has been a hit-and-miss player because of injuries and an inconsistent year or two (and bad teams).

And Mike Shanahan, who did the deal, ended up with Portis again. The Broncos shouldn't have let Pryce go, but he had sat out much of one year and his production fell off badly the next. He wanted more money, and they thought he was on the downside (even though he has been outstanding for Baltimore since).

Berry had a nice ride with Arizona. Elam got more money from Atlanta, but he's retired now (and retired with the Broncos this offseason, so he wasn't too upset about what happened).

Don't bring up Jay Cutler. Money had nothing to do with what happened there. So we're back to Marshall, and everybody lumps the two together.

Elvis is a great guy and made the adjustment well to the Broncos' new 3-4 defense and should be a Pro Bowl-type player for years.

What happened with Portis didn't stop anyone from signing here. What happened with Marshall didn't keep anybody from signing here. Players across the league will tell you they consider the Broncos an elite organization (despite the lack of playoffs around here for quite a while), and I rarely (if ever) hear a player bad-mouthing the franchise once he leaves for whatever reason.

Ray Crockett was the exception. Sharpe came home. Gold and Keith Burns came back. Oh, I did forget Ashley Lelie. He wanted more money. The Broncos traded him. He's bounced around and done OK, but will never be an all-pro receiver.

There was the Al Wilson situation, but his health did him in. Ask every other current player with the Broncos about their salary, and the vast majority will say they are fine. Kyle Orton certainly felt he deserved a long-term, big-time deal.

Ryan Clady held out some as a rookie and probably thought he deserved more, until his offseason hoops game.

You think players won't want to play in Denver because Elvis is negotiating a contract? Why, then, does anybody ever want to play in Oakland? In summation, we all know Elvis deserves a ton of money. He will get it.

[Nomad]

Great piece by Woody....thanks for the find, Carol!!

[Northman]

In summation, we all know Elvis deserves a ton of money.

Yes he does.

[Lonestar]

usually Woody is a hack but the past few pieces he has written have been spot on.

[TXBRONC]

Amazing how for some people Woody is hack until he agrees with them. :rolleyes:

[Dean]

The statement that Elvis "deserves a ton of money" IMO is what most of the discussion on this board has been about. Several posters have taken the stance that Elvis doesn't deserve the big money. According to Woody, he does. The second part of the statement "he will get it" is the second point that has been in contention. Will he get it from the Broncos or will he have to go elsewhere?

[Tempus Fugit]

The statement that Elvis "deserves a ton of money" IMO is what most of the discussion on this board has been about. Several posters have taken the stance that Elvis doesn't deserve the big money. According to Woody, he does. The second part of the statement "he will get it" is the second point that has been in contention. Will he get it from the Broncos or will he have to go elsewhere?

Well, "ton of money" is a pretty open term, Dean. Saying that Dumervil isn't a top 5 LB and doesn't deserve top 5 LB money isn't the same as saying the man should have to play for league minimum, after all.

[SR]

Elvis does deserve money, but not Terrell Suggs money. Suggs is an all-around beast who is good in every aspect of the game. Elvis isn't great in run support or coverage. He's good at getting to the QB which creates sacks, possession problems, turnovers, etc, but the rest of the game isn't his strong suit. I'd say he probably deserves $6-7mil per year, but not $10mil plus.

[Nomad]

Elvis does deserve money, but not Terrell Suggs money. Suggs is an all-around beast who is good in every aspect of the game. Elvis isn't great in run support or coverage. He's good at getting to the QB which creates sacks, possession problems, turnovers, etc, but the rest of the game isn't his strong suit. I'd say he probably deserves $6-7mil per year, but not $10mil plus.

I try not to get caught up in the money thing but I agree with your assessment of Elvis! But I believe the biggest hangup is the guarantee money up front....could be wrong though!


The only money issue with the NFL I really disagree with is the outrageous contracts given to unproven rookies!! But it seems when players get the big contracts they take a step back!

[broncobryce]

I think he will get paid. That's why I haven't gone to panic mode as some have. Give it time folks. Its still in the negotiating phase.
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[Northman]

Amazing how for some people Woody is hack until he agrees with them. :rolleyes:

Spot on. :lol:

[Lonestar]

Spot on. :lol:

hmmmm must of missed this part.


usually Woody is a hack but the past few pieces he has written have been spot on.


has nothing to do with agreeing nor disagreeing with him.

he must be eating his bran flakes again, as he is writing decent articles.

[Northman]

Elvis does deserve money, but not Terrell Suggs money. Suggs is an all-around beast who is good in every aspect of the game. Elvis isn't great in run support or coverage. He's good at getting to the QB which creates sacks, possession problems, turnovers, etc, but the rest of the game isn't his strong suit. I'd say he probably deserves $6-7mil per year, but not $10mil plus.


Going by their first 4 years Elvis is already ahead of Suggs in a some areas.


Doom:
43 Sacks, 106 Tackles, 8 PD, 10 FF

Suggs:
40 Sacks, 71 Tackles, 16 PD, 12 FF


Then when you throw in the surrounding talent its like night and day so to me Doom definitely deserves "Suggs" money.

[Northman]

hmmmm must of missed this part.




has nothing to do with agreeing nor disagreeing with him.

he must be eating his bran flakes again, as he is writing decent articles.

And you must of missed this part.


Amazing how for some people Woody is hack until he agrees with them.

Had the article said the Denver needed to pay Doom Ware money you would of been crying "hack!" all night and day.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Amazing how for some people Woody is hack until he agrees with them. :rolleyes:

To me, what Woody said in this article makes a lot of sense, and contained some inside information that none of us are privy to. Not sure why it should or even would cause people to take sides.

[Dirk]

Elvis has signed the team's tender; nobody else signed him as a restricted free agent and, from what I'm told, negotiations are businesslike.

Before I get slammed, if you have seen my posts you know I don't want Doom to go anywhere. But:

That statement quoted above should help some to understand that Elvis isn't the "beast" that some think he is. If he was good at every aspect of his game, some team would have pulled the trigger to get him away from the Broncos. No one did.

Anyway, sign the man but don't break the bank. :salute:

[Northman]

To me, what Woody said in this article makes a lot of sense, and contained some inside information that none of us are privy to. Not sure why it should or even would cause people to take sides.

Maybe because people dont agree with him? :confused:

[Nomad]

To me, what Woody said in this article makes a lot of sense, and contained some inside information that none of us are privy to. Not sure why it should or even would cause people to take sides.

I've never had ill will towards Paige. I've enjoyed/agreed most times with him and have disagreed sometimes but he seems to bring good info here!!

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Maybe because people dont agree with him? :confused:

In this article, what do you not agree with? I thought it was very positive stating that they are negotiating, and that he feels Elvis will be signed to a contract.

[Northman]

Before I get slammed, if you have seen my posts you know I don't want Doom to go anywhere. But:

That statement quoted above should help some to understand that Elvis isn't the "beast" that some think he is. If he was good at every aspect of his game, some team would have pulled the trigger to get him away from the Broncos. No one did.

Anyway, sign the man but don't break the bank. :salute:


No offense, but when Marshall was facing the same issue people kept saying that no one was coming after him as well. Eventually he got traded but while he was on the market no one was biting and according to those who were defending him claimed that NO BIG NAMES were being signed so you shouldnt read much into that.

[Northman]

In this article, what do you not agree with? I thought it was very positive stating that they are negotiating, and that he feels Elvis will be signed to a contract.

He 'feels" that Elvis will be signed? Or he "Knows" that Elvis will be signed? Thats the problem with these kinds of articles. Elvis himself has stated that the negotiating has not been really progressing the way he had hoped and he didnt sound very confident that he will remain a Bronco. Now, am i going to believe the player or some reporter who "thinks" he will get signed.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

He 'feels" that Elvis will be signed? Or he "Knows" that Elvis will be signed? Thats the problem with these kinds of articles. Elvis himself has stated that the negotiating has not been really progressing the way he had hoped and he didnt sound very confident that he will remain a Bronco. Now, am i going to believe the player or some reporter who "thinks" he will get signed.

From article:

According to someone who knows and is close to the talks, the negotiations are ongoing regularly between the Broncos and Dumervil, there's no reason to panic and the numbers will not be discussed publicly until the deal is done. Yes, they are far apart. Yes, they are getting closer.

[TXBRONC]

To me, what Woody said in this article makes a lot of sense, and contained some inside information that none of us are privy to. Not sure why it should or even would cause people to take sides.

Sometimes I agree with his opinion and other times I don't.

There are some posters that have said they haven't Paige for years on end and think he's nothing but a hack. But now that Woody said something they agree with he's not a hack?

[Northman]

From article:

According to someone who knows and is close to the talks, the negotiations are ongoing regularly between the Broncos and Dumervil, there's no reason to panic and the numbers will not be discussed publicly until the deal is done. Yes, they are far apart. Yes, they are getting closer.


I think ill stick with the player's answers since its actually coming from the horses mouth.

[Dirk]

No offense, but when Marshall was facing the same issue people kept saying that no one was coming after him as well. Eventually he got traded but while he was on the market no one was biting and according to those who were defending him claimed that NO BIG NAMES were being signed so you shouldnt read much into that.

None taken. :D

[TXBRONC]

Before I get slammed, if you have seen my posts you know I don't want Doom to go anywhere. But:

That statement quoted above should help some to understand that Elvis isn't the "beast" that some think he is. If he was good at every aspect of his game, some team would have pulled the trigger to get him away from the Broncos. No one did.

Anyway, sign the man but don't break the bank. :salute:

So because teams that didn't want to give up an first and a third round pick that equates to him not being a beast? I disagee.

[TXBRONC]

From article:

According to someone who knows and is close to the talks, the negotiations are ongoing regularly between the Broncos and Dumervil, there's no reason to panic and the numbers will not be discussed publicly until the deal is done. Yes, they are far apart. Yes, they are getting closer.

That sounds like the front office perspective not the player's perspective. Maybe it true and I hope it is but is in conflict with Dumervil's take on it FWIW.

[silkamilkamonico]

I would be all for making Doom elite company money if we could somehow make teams run away from him in the rushing game instead of towards him.

[Lonestar]

And you must of missed this part.



Had the article said the Denver needed to pay Doom Ware money you would of been crying "hack!" all night and day.

IIRC he said


we all know Elvis deserves a ton of money. He will get it.



not sure how you missed that I did not.

[Northman]

I would be all for making Doom elite company money if we could somehow make teams run away from him in the rushing game instead of towards him.

Unfortuantely, this is the real world and even guys like Allen have players running towards him. But thanks for the input Harry Potter. :lol:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

That sounds like the front office perspective not the player's perspective. Maybe it true and I hope it is but is in conflict with Dumervil's take on it FWIW.

I also hope it is true. Dumervil's comment was made to Rome Monday morning, more than likely, based on the outcome of the last time his agent and the Broncos had their last discussion, which none of us know when that was. Paige's article was posted early this morning. Possibly, negotiations started up again this week, and that is what Paige based his article on.

[Lonestar]

Unfortuantely, this is the real world and even guys like Allen have players running towards him. But thanks for the input Harry Potter. :lol:

and that is precisely how to beat him run at him. Doom falls into the category, to deficient currently to stop the run.

[Lonestar]

I also hope it is true. Dumervil's comment was made to Rome Monday morning, more than likely, based on the outcome of the last time his agent and the Broncos had their last discussion, which none of us know when that was. Paige's article was posted early this morning. Possibly, negotiations started up again this week, and that is what Paige based his article on.

and do we really know what the agent has really told Doom. guessing not.

[Poet]

Teams rushed at Joey Porter for years. I know, I watched Cincinnati do it all the time. Joey Porter wasn't the strongest in pass coverage either. He still got paid a ton of cash several times in his career.

As Northman pointed out, teams run at Jared Allen a lot. Teams run at Dwight Freeney as well. Ironically, those are two top five DE's in the game today.

This isn't like the other two situations in Denver - This isn't a QB to coach relationship gone bad and this isn't a cancerous (and if you disagree with my assessments that's fine, but I'm not doing the whole Cutler and Marshall argument to derail the thread, I'm proving a point) WR either. Your defense has a very good but ancient safety, a great but aging corner, and Dumervil. I think the rest of your defense overachieved last year. If you guys let Doom walk to save money that money better be spent on a blockbuster defensive free agent who pans out, because you don't have anyone else.

It's easier to find middle ground on QB's and WR's than it is to find pass rushers.

[Lonestar]

Teams rushed at Joey Porter for years. I know, I watched Cincinnati do it all the time. Joey Porter wasn't the strongest in pass coverage either. He still got paid a ton of cash several times in his career.

As Northman pointed out, teams run at Jared Allen a lot. Teams run at Dwight Freeney as well. Ironically, those are two top five DE's in the game today.

This isn't like the other two situations in Denver - This isn't a QB to coach relationship gone bad and this isn't a cancerous (and if you disagree with my assessments that's fine, but I'm not doing the whole Cutler and Marshall argument to derail the thread, I'm proving a point) WR either. Your defense has a very good but ancient safety, a great but aging corner, and Dumervil. I think the rest of your defense overachieved last year. If you guys let Doom walk to save money that money better be spent on a blockbuster defensive free agent who pans out, because you don't have anyone else.

It's easier to find middle ground on QB's and WR's than it is to find pass rushers.

the argument is whiter to spend a ton of money on an incomplete player.

freney and allen play a position that Doom does not.

they are rarely if ever asked to fall back into coverage or cover a RB out of the back field those are things that MOST 3-4 OLBs can do he has yet to put much emphasis on learning to do so. or so it seems as 90% of the time he is lined up wide of the DE with his hand not he ground. Effectively being our 4th DL guy, but no being effective against the run.

[TXBRONC]

Teams rushed at Joey Porter for years. I know, I watched Cincinnati do it all the time. Joey Porter wasn't the strongest in pass coverage either. He still got paid a ton of cash several times in his career.

As Northman pointed out, teams run at Jared Allen a lot. Teams run at Dwight Freeney as well. Ironically, those are two top five DE's in the game today.

This isn't like the other two situations in Denver - This isn't a QB to coach relationship gone bad and this isn't a cancerous (and if you disagree with my assessments that's fine, but I'm not doing the whole Cutler and Marshall argument to derail the thread, I'm proving a point) WR either. Your defense has a very good but ancient safety, a great but aging corner, and Dumervil. I think the rest of your defense overachieved last year. If you guys let Doom walk to save money that money better be spent on a blockbuster defensive free agent who pans out, because you don't have anyone else.

It's easier to find middle ground on QB's and WR's than it is to find pass rushers.

Actually our entire starting secondary is over the age of 30.

They are banking on Ayers stepping up to be big part of defense and bolster our pass rush but until he does we only have one known commodity.

[Dirk]

So because teams that didn't want to give up an first and a third round pick that equates to him not being a beast? I disagee.

No, no....just saying that if he was worth Peppers or Ware money, someone would have jumped and made some type of deal to get him. A first and a 3rd, or 2 second rounders, something. I don't recall any team inquiring about Doom. If they did, I didn't see it. Of course I don't scoure the interwebs for stuff so someone could have.

He is better than average, that's for sure! But to be perfectly honest, he isn't worth what they are getting. BUT, he is definately worth a heafty raise and I hope that they can get a deal done. :beer:

[Tempus Fugit]

Teams rushed at Joey Porter for years. I know, I watched Cincinnati do it all the time. Joey Porter wasn't the strongest in pass coverage either. He still got paid a ton of cash several times in his career.

As Northman pointed out, teams run at Jared Allen a lot. Teams run at Dwight Freeney as well. Ironically, those are two top five DE's in the game today.

This isn't like the other two situations in Denver - This isn't a QB to coach relationship gone bad and this isn't a cancerous (and if you disagree with my assessments that's fine, but I'm not doing the whole Cutler and Marshall argument to derail the thread, I'm proving a point) WR either. Your defense has a very good but ancient safety, a great but aging corner, and Dumervil. I think the rest of your defense overachieved last year. If you guys let Doom walk to save money that money better be spent on a blockbuster defensive free agent who pans out, because you don't have anyone else.

It's easier to find middle ground on QB's and WR's than it is to find pass rushers.

Teams will always try to run at pass rushers. It's one way to slow them down (chipping them as receivers head into coverage is another). It's why Freeney's shortcomings against the run are such a problem for the Colts when that team is playing from behind. The question is whether or not the pass rusher is good enough against the run to limit the effectiveness of such a ploy. OLBs have an advantage in this department, because teams can get on top of a 4-3 DE faster than they can get at an OLB, so it's usually not the same issue.

Dumervil is just not strong against the run at this point in his career. That may change as he becomes more comfortable at the OLB position. However, since he wants his contract now, he's going to get rated on how well he does that job now. Unfortunately for him, and the Broncos, OLBs are called upon to set the edge against the run and make tackles, and he's not good enough at that to warrant the huge money. The result is the need to find a medium between "great pass rusher" and "weak against the run" when it comes to agreeing upon a salary. That's not easy when you're dealing with an athlete's ego.

Just ask baseball teams about having to tread that fine line when it happens in arbitration.

[TXBRONC]

No, no....just saying that if he was worth Peppers or Ware money, someone would have jumped and made some type of deal to get him. A first and a 3rd, or 2 second rounders, something. I don't recall any team inquiring about Doom. If they did, I didn't see it. Of course I don't scoure the interwebs for stuff so someone could have.

He is better than average, that's for sure! But to be perfectly honest, he isn't worth what they are getting. BUT, he is definately worth a heafty raise and I hope that they can get a deal done. :beer:

Orton was given the exact same tender as Dumervil no teams jumped at the chance to pick him up either nor did any team with quarterback issue even inquire about him. There are some that have used the lack of a CBA as a defense for why Orton wasn't pick up but the same wouldn't apply to Dumervil?

We'll just have to disagree about what Dumervil is worth because imho he is worth kind money that guys like Pepper got.

In the end I hope they can get a deal done. :beer:

[Ravage!!!]

No, no....just saying that if he was worth Peppers or Ware money, someone would have jumped and made some type of deal to get him. A first and a 3rd, or 2 second rounders, something. I don't recall any team inquiring about Doom. If they did, I didn't see it. Of course I don't scoure the interwebs for stuff so someone could have.

He is better than average, that's for sure! But to be perfectly honest, he isn't worth what they are getting. BUT, he is definately worth a heafty raise and I hope that they can get a deal done. :beer:

Teams didn't give up the picks for Marshall, yet Parcells (who hates WRs) gave up TOP TOP money for him. People on the message board here, said the same things about him. If he was worth it, teams would be asking/trading for him. It was their mantra. It was the "see, Marshall isn't worth what people think" parade.

Teams held on pretty tight to their picks this year for the UFAs.

[Dirk]

Orton was given the exact same tender as Dumervil no teams jumped at the chance to pick him up either nor did any team with quarterback issue even inquire about him. There are some that have used the lack of a CBA as a defense for why Orton wasn't pick up but the same wouldn't apply to Dumervil?

We'll just have to disagree about what Dumervil is worth because imho he is worth kind money that guys like Pepper got.

In the end I hope they can get a deal done. :beer:

I agree to disagree on the $$ part of it. Hell, why should I even care, it's not my money!! :D

[Dirk]

Teams didn't give up the picks for Marshall, yet Parcells (who hates WRs) gave up TOP TOP money for him. People on the message board here, said the same things about him. If he was worth it, teams would be asking/trading for him. It was their mantra. It was the "see, Marshall isn't worth what people think" parade.

Teams held on pretty tight to their picks this year for the UFAs.

Miami gave a 2nd in 2010 and a 2nd in 2011 for BMarsh. :listen:

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Teams didn't give up the picks for Marshall, yet Parcells (who hates WRs) gave up TOP TOP money for him. People on the message board here, said the same things about him. If he was worth it, teams would be asking/trading for him. It was their mantra. It was the "see, Marshall isn't worth what people think" parade.

Teams held on pretty tight to their picks this year for the UFAs.

For Marshall, Miami gave the Broncos draft picks, and as far as Parcells giving up TOP TOP money for Marshall:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/17/the-truth-on-the-brandon-marshall-deal/

The truth on the Brandon Marshall deal

Many of you have wondered how and why the Miami Dolphins could have made Brandon Marshall the highest-paid receiver in NFL history. The easy answer, as we pointed out the other day, is that they didn't -- his widely-reported four-year, $47.5 million extension fairly should be regarded at best as a five-year, $50 million contract, giving Marshall a $10 million annual average that matches the yearly total paid to Cardinals receiver Larry Fitzgerald.

Now for the truth.

For starters, the full contract is worth $47.3 million over five years. It contains a phony $2.7 million roster bonus payable in 2014 -- but only if Marshall participates in 95 percent or more of the Dolphins' special teams plays in 2010.

Why would this be included? To allow Marshall and his agent to characterize the contract as a package worth $10 million per year. Truth be told, it's worth $9.46 million annually.

(That may not seem like much of a difference, but the phantom roster bonus allows Marshall and his agent, Kennard McGuire, to claim with a straight face that Marshall is getting $10 million per year.)

Then there's the notion that the Dolphins would pay $24 million in guaranteed money to a guy with a history of off-field incidents. Surely, V.P. of football operations Bill Parcells hasn't lost his mind, right?

He hasn't. (Or, more accurately, if he has, this isn't proof of it.)

With the 2009 decision in the Plaxico Burress grievance that signing bonus money can be recovered only if the player holds out or retires, a $20 million signing bonus would have been untouchable, even if Marshall had been suspended for a year or longer. So the Dolphins instead have paid out a signing bonus of $5.5 million. Coupled with a guaranteed base salary (for skill and injury) of $4 million in 2010, Marshall's contract has a minimum value of $9.5 million over one year.

Here's the kicker. If the Dolphins decide before April 2, 2011 that Marshall isn't who they thought he was, they can walk away, possibly without paying Marshall another penny. Prior to April 2, 2011, he has only $3 million in future guaranteed money that already has been unlocked. But the contract contains offset language; if they cut him and someone else pays him $3 million in 2011, the Dolphins are off the hook for the balance of the contract.

And even if the Dolphins pay a $3 million option bonus due on April 2, 2011, guaranteed base salaries of $6.5 million in 2011 and $6 million in 2012 (he also has $3 million in non-guaranteed base pay in 2012) can be nullified if Marshall is suspended by the league.

So, for now, the only guaranteed money is $12.5 million, with an offset for up to $3 million. If the Dolphins decided to keep him past April 2, 2011, another $9.5 million in guaranteed base salaries will be available -- as long as Marshall stays out of trouble.

These facts are another reason why it's always dangerous to accept at face value the numbers that the player's camp begins to parrot as soon as the deal is signed.

The problem is that the agent has an incentive to get a skewed version of the contract into the media, the team rarely is willing to say anything that would dampen the "highest paid player!" parade, and the reporter who gets the information often is so determined to be first that the question of whether or not the information is accurate often gets lost in the shuffle. (And, yes, we've done that once or twice -- and we hope that we have learned from it.)

[Traveler]

For Marshall, Miami gave the Broncos draft picks, and as far as Parcells giving up TOP TOP money for Marshall:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/17/the-truth-on-the-brandon-marshall-deal/

The truth on the Brandon Marshall deal

Many of you have wondered how and why the Miami Dolphins could have made Brandon Marshall the highest-paid receiver in NFL history. The easy answer, as we pointed out the other day, is that they didn't -- his widely-reported four-year, $47.5 million extension fairly should be regarded at best as a five-year, $50 million contract, giving Marshall a $10 million annual average that matches the yearly total paid to Cardinals receiver Larry Fitzgerald.

Now for the truth.

For starters, the full contract is worth $47.3 million over five years. It contains a phony $2.7 million roster bonus payable in 2014 -- but only if Marshall participates in 95 percent or more of the Dolphins' special teams plays in 2010.

Why would this be included? To allow Marshall and his agent to characterize the contract as a package worth $10 million per year. Truth be told, it's worth $9.46 million annually.

(That may not seem like much of a difference, but the phantom roster bonus allows Marshall and his agent, Kennard McGuire, to claim with a straight face that Marshall is getting $10 million per year.)

Then there's the notion that the Dolphins would pay $24 million in guaranteed money to a guy with a history of off-field incidents. Surely, V.P. of football operations Bill Parcells hasn't lost his mind, right?

He hasn't. (Or, more accurately, if he has, this isn't proof of it.)

With the 2009 decision in the Plaxico Burress grievance that signing bonus money can be recovered only if the player holds out or retires, a $20 million signing bonus would have been untouchable, even if Marshall had been suspended for a year or longer. So the Dolphins instead have paid out a signing bonus of $5.5 million. Coupled with a guaranteed base salary (for skill and injury) of $4 million in 2010, Marshall's contract has a minimum value of $9.5 million over one year.

Here's the kicker. If the Dolphins decide before April 2, 2011 that Marshall isn't who they thought he was, they can walk away, possibly without paying Marshall another penny. Prior to April 2, 2011, he has only $3 million in future guaranteed money that already has been unlocked. But the contract contains offset language; if they cut him and someone else pays him $3 million in 2011, the Dolphins are off the hook for the balance of the contract.

And even if the Dolphins pay a $3 million option bonus due on April 2, 2011, guaranteed base salaries of $6.5 million in 2011 and $6 million in 2012 (he also has $3 million in non-guaranteed base pay in 2012) can be nullified if Marshall is suspended by the league.

So, for now, the only guaranteed money is $12.5 million, with an offset for up to $3 million. If the Dolphins decided to keep him past April 2, 2011, another $9.5 million in guaranteed base salaries will be available -- as long as Marshall stays out of trouble.

These facts are another reason why it's always dangerous to accept at face value the numbers that the player's camp begins to parrot as soon as the deal is signed.

The problem is that the agent has an incentive to get a skewed version of the contract into the media, the team rarely is willing to say anything that would dampen the "highest paid player!" parade, and the reporter who gets the information often is so determined to be first that the question of whether or not the information is accurate often gets lost in the shuffle. (And, yes, we've done that once or twice -- and we hope that we have learned from it.)

If I interpreted this correctly, we got 2nd rounders for Marshall and the Phins could possibly have a 1yr, $9.5 million rental of Brandon if they so choose.

Wow! I like this trade even more.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Teams rushed at Joey Porter for years. I know, I watched Cincinnati do it all the time. Joey Porter wasn't the strongest in pass coverage either. He still got paid a ton of cash several times in his career.

As Northman pointed out, teams run at Jared Allen a lot. Teams run at Dwight Freeney as well. Ironically, those are two top five DE's in the game today.

This isn't like the other two situations in Denver - This isn't a QB to coach relationship gone bad and this isn't a cancerous (and if you disagree with my assessments that's fine, but I'm not doing the whole Cutler and Marshall argument to derail the thread, I'm proving a point) WR either. Your defense has a very good but ancient safety, a great but aging corner, and Dumervil. I think the rest of your defense overachieved last year. If you guys let Doom walk to save money that money better be spent on a blockbuster defensive free agent who pans out, because you don't have anyone else.

It's easier to find middle ground on QB's and WR's than it is to find pass rushers.

QFT from a Bengals fan! /THREAD

[Bosco]

Several posters have taken the stance that Elvis doesn't deserve the big money.

And several more have taken the stance that the team should essentially pay him whatever he wants just to keep him here. As usual the right answer is somewhere in the middle.

[Northman]

I agree to disagree on the $$ part of it. Hell, why should I even care, it's not my money!! :D

Exactly.

[Poet]

the argument is whiter to spend a ton of money on an incomplete player.

freney and allen play a position that Doom does not.

they are rarely if ever asked to fall back into coverage or cover a RB out of the back field those are things that MOST 3-4 OLBs can do he has yet to put much emphasis on learning to do so. or so it seems as 90% of the time he is lined up wide of the DE with his hand not he ground. Effectively being our 4th DL guy, but no being effective against the run.

But it's the same across the board for pass rushers. Joey Porter sucked on run coverage. Adalius Thomas wasn't great in run coverage. Terrell Suggs, who isn't even that great of a pass rusher anymore, wasn't that great on run stopping.

James Harrison and DeMarcus Ware are not normal.

You can say that you shouldn't overpay, the problem is that if push comes to shove you actually should. This league is becoming more and more about the quarterback and the passing game. That means pass rushers are at a premium.

A pass rusher can't just be quantified in sack numbers, although you do need a large total in that at the end of the day. Hurries, QB knockdowns and how they affect their opponent's blocking schemes go into what a pass rusher really does.

It's way too easy to just go "he sucks in coverage, he sucks at run stopping," when what he DOES happens to be the most important aspect of defense right now.

He's produced a good sack total in two different systems. He's been a team player, a hard worker, an example for younger players and looks to be the epitome of what you want your guy to be.

You guys will be able to survive the loss of Cutler and Marshall, if Doom goes it will be damning.

[Dirk]

For Marshall, Miami gave the Broncos draft picks, and as far as Parcells giving up TOP TOP money for Marshall:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/17/the-truth-on-the-brandon-marshall-deal/

The truth on the Brandon Marshall deal

Many of you have wondered how and why the Miami Dolphins could have made Brandon Marshall the highest-paid receiver in NFL history. The easy answer, as we pointed out the other day, is that they didn't -- his widely-reported four-year, $47.5 million extension fairly should be regarded at best as a five-year, $50 million contract, giving Marshall a $10 million annual average that matches the yearly total paid to Cardinals receiver Larry Fitzgerald.

Now for the truth.

For starters, the full contract is worth $47.3 million over five years. It contains a phony $2.7 million roster bonus payable in 2014 -- but only if Marshall participates in 95 percent or more of the Dolphins' special teams plays in 2010.

Why would this be included? To allow Marshall and his agent to characterize the contract as a package worth $10 million per year. Truth be told, it's worth $9.46 million annually.

(That may not seem like much of a difference, but the phantom roster bonus allows Marshall and his agent, Kennard McGuire, to claim with a straight face that Marshall is getting $10 million per year.)

Then there's the notion that the Dolphins would pay $24 million in guaranteed money to a guy with a history of off-field incidents. Surely, V.P. of football operations Bill Parcells hasn't lost his mind, right?

He hasn't. (Or, more accurately, if he has, this isn't proof of it.)

With the 2009 decision in the Plaxico Burress grievance that signing bonus money can be recovered only if the player holds out or retires, a $20 million signing bonus would have been untouchable, even if Marshall had been suspended for a year or longer. So the Dolphins instead have paid out a signing bonus of $5.5 million. Coupled with a guaranteed base salary (for skill and injury) of $4 million in 2010, Marshall's contract has a minimum value of $9.5 million over one year.

Here's the kicker. If the Dolphins decide before April 2, 2011 that Marshall isn't who they thought he was, they can walk away, possibly without paying Marshall another penny. Prior to April 2, 2011, he has only $3 million in future guaranteed money that already has been unlocked. But the contract contains offset language; if they cut him and someone else pays him $3 million in 2011, the Dolphins are off the hook for the balance of the contract.

And even if the Dolphins pay a $3 million option bonus due on April 2, 2011, guaranteed base salaries of $6.5 million in 2011 and $6 million in 2012 (he also has $3 million in non-guaranteed base pay in 2012) can be nullified if Marshall is suspended by the league.

So, for now, the only guaranteed money is $12.5 million, with an offset for up to $3 million. If the Dolphins decided to keep him past April 2, 2011, another $9.5 million in guaranteed base salaries will be available -- as long as Marshall stays out of trouble.

These facts are another reason why it's always dangerous to accept at face value the numbers that the player's camp begins to parrot as soon as the deal is signed.

The problem is that the agent has an incentive to get a skewed version of the contract into the media, the team rarely is willing to say anything that would dampen the "highest paid player!" parade, and the reporter who gets the information often is so determined to be first that the question of whether or not the information is accurate often gets lost in the shuffle. (And, yes, we've done that once or twice -- and we hope that we have learned from it.)

That made my head hurt..... :shocked:

[Lonestar]

But it's the same across the board for pass rushers. Joey Porter sucked on run coverage. Adalius Thomas wasn't great in run coverage. Terrell Suggs, who isn't even that great of a pass rusher anymore, wasn't that great on run stopping.

James Harrison and DeMarcus Ware are not normal.

You can say that you shouldn't overpay, the problem is that if push comes to shove you actually should. This league is becoming more and more about the quarterback and the passing game. That means pass rushers are at a premium.

A pass rusher can't just be quantified in sack numbers, although you do need a large total in that at the end of the day. Hurries, QB knockdowns and how they affect their opponent's blocking schemes go into what a pass rusher really does.

It's way too easy to just go "he sucks in coverage, he sucks at run stopping," when what he DOES happens to be the most important aspect of defense right now.

He's produced a good sack total in two different systems. He's been a team player, a hard worker, an example for younger players and looks to be the epitome of what you want your guy to be.

You guys will be able to survive the loss of Cutler and Marshall, if Doom goes it will be damning.

I understand your logic about its a QB league.

But look at what happened last year teams did not have to pass in our last 8 games or so. And the last 3 IIRC there were almost one record after the next.

Now I know that we replaced all the DL starters supposedly to fix that issue.

Maybe it will maybe th DL was not the only issue. Just maybe having doom on the field created that liability.

I do not know what the divide is between Xman and the agent money wise, but I know that if doom was the end all that most on here seems to think he is he would have new uber fat contract.

Since he became a probowler on the sack total only and let's not pretend it was because he is anything but a pass rusher and had that stat if two others would have had bigger numbers he may or may not have been in the game.

Our coaches know him more than any of us do, his teamates do also and if he does not get a record contract we will all know that it was because the FO and Pat decided he was not the complete player they wanted.

Unlike some PROFESSED Josh haters I'm going to give him,his coaches and Xman the benifit of doubt that they know more than we do on this.
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[Lonestar]

For Marshall, Miami gave the Broncos draft picks, and as far as Parcells giving up TOP TOP money for Marshall:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/17/the-truth-on-the-brandon-marshall-deal/

The truth on the Brandon Marshall deal

Many of you have wondered how and why the Miami Dolphins could have made Brandon Marshall the highest-paid receiver in NFL history. The easy answer, as we pointed out the other day, is that they didn't -- his widely-reported four-year, $47.5 million extension fairly should be regarded at best as a five-year, $50 million contract, giving Marshall a $10 million annual average that matches the yearly total paid to Cardinals receiver Larry Fitzgerald.

Now for the truth.

For starters, the full contract is worth $47.3 million over five years. It contains a phony $2.7 million roster bonus payable in 2014 -- but only if Marshall participates in 95 percent or more of the Dolphins' special teams plays in 2010.

Why would this be included? To allow Marshall and his agent to characterize the contract as a package worth $10 million per year. Truth be told, it's worth $9.46 million annually.

(That may not seem like much of a difference, but the phantom roster bonus allows Marshall and his agent, Kennard McGuire, to claim with a straight face that Marshall is getting $10 million per year.)

Then there's the notion that the Dolphins would pay $24 million in guaranteed money to a guy with a history of off-field incidents. Surely, V.P. of football operations Bill Parcells hasn't lost his mind, right?

He hasn't. (Or, more accurately, if he has, this isn't proof of it.)

With the 2009 decision in the Plaxico Burress grievance that signing bonus money can be recovered only if the player holds out or retires, a $20 million signing bonus would have been untouchable, even if Marshall had been suspended for a year or longer. So the Dolphins instead have paid out a signing bonus of $5.5 million. Coupled with a guaranteed base salary (for skill and injury) of $4 million in 2010, Marshall's contract has a minimum value of $9.5 million over one year.

Here's the kicker. If the Dolphins decide before April 2, 2011 that Marshall isn't who they thought he was, they can walk away, possibly without paying Marshall another penny. Prior to April 2, 2011, he has only $3 million in future guaranteed money that already has been unlocked. But the contract contains offset language; if they cut him and someone else pays him $3 million in 2011, the Dolphins are off the hook for the balance of the contract.

And even if the Dolphins pay a $3 million option bonus due on April 2, 2011, guaranteed base salaries of $6.5 million in 2011 and $6 million in 2012 (he also has $3 million in non-guaranteed base pay in 2012) can be nullified if Marshall is suspended by the league.

So, for now, the only guaranteed money is $12.5 million, with an offset for up to $3 million. If the Dolphins decided to keep him past April 2, 2011, another $9.5 million in guaranteed base salaries will be available -- as long as Marshall stays out of trouble.

These facts are another reason why it's always dangerous to accept at face value the numbers that the player's camp begins to parrot as soon as the deal is signed.

The problem is that the agent has an incentive to get a skewed version of the contract into the media, the team rarely is willing to say anything that would dampen the "highest paid player!" parade, and the reporter who gets the information often is so determined to be first that the question of whether or not the information is accurate often gets lost in the shuffle. (And, yes, we've done that once or twice -- and we hope that we have learned from it.)

What an ego. All of that Just to be called the highest paid player. Glad we got 2 2nds for the moron.

Now he has had "clean up" done again and missed yet another offseason.

How many of his jock riders would have been supporting him if he was still here?

Good riddance IMO.
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[T.K.O.]

brandon marshall is not a model citizen,nor the ultimate team player by any stretch.....but he is one HELL of a football player.
i hope he keeps his nose clean and has a great career... except when playing against the broncos !:salute: