Elvis on loyalty, Marshall on Cutler

[broncobryce]

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/06/22/they-said-it-the-week-of-june-21

Dolphins new WR Brandon Marshall, gushing about QB Chad Henne, as quoted on SunSentinel.com: "Chad's ball is easier to catch [than former Broncos QB Jay Cutler]. He has one of the most talented arms that I've seen. It's going to be fun. This guy — his work ethic in the classroom and on the field — it's going to be exciting to play with him and to grow and learn from him, too." Marshall went on to praise head coach Tony Sparano: "I don't know the last time I've been more inspired. … There are no individuals. He treats everyone the same. You know what you are going to get, I've learned that in my short time here already. I look forward to just trying to run through a brick wall for him. He's an awesome guy and an awesome coach."

Broncos OLB Elvis Dumervil, quoted in the Denver Daily regarding uncertainty as to whether he will show up for training camp next month without a new contract: "We'll have to wait and see. It is all about principles to me. If I am loyal to you, then shouldn't you be back to me?" Added Dumervil: "I am just disappointed I'm not locked in. It is out of my control. I am a Denver Bronco in 2010, and after that I am sure someone else will want me for the long term. It is really out of my hands and it is what it is."

[broncobryce]

Let the hate spew.

[nevcraw]

Broncos need to pay Elvis, and will probably need to now overpay to lock him up after dragging it out this long..
If they don't this will be clearly viewed as a black eye on the organization for letting a "good guy" and a special player go. this won't be able to be disguised under getting rid of the trash..
and yes other team's FA's and soon to be bronco FA's will take notice on which teams step it up for good players with good reps.

[Shazam!]

What a fascinating article.

[Lonestar]

What a fascinating article.


gee whiz could have had that in DEN had he not been worried about all the other stuff, MONEY, acting like a kid, MONEY, dwell, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY

as for Doom he will be a bronco thru the 2012 season IF they do not get a NEW CBA in place that does away with tagged players.

no need to get panties in a wad.

he will get his top 5 money for those tagged years.

and if he becomes a real OLB displaying all those skills he may get a real contract before then.

[GEM]

gee whiz could have had that in DEN had he not been worried about all the other stuff, MONEY, acting like a kid, MONEY, dwell, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY

as for Doom he will be a bronco thru the 2012 season IF they do not get a NEW CBA in place that does away with tagged players.

no need to get panties in a wad.

he will get his top 5 money for those tagged years.

and if he becomes a real OLB displaying all those skills he may get a real contract before then.

And he may not even show up for training camp THIS SEASON. Who gives a shit if we have him under contract if he refuses to play because the front office has been promising something that apparently they never intended to fulfil....even though he's been the perfect example of a professional.

Who knows....he could have thrown a temper tantrum like those other guys, got traded and got his money. Instead, he played the good, team guy and he's going to be stuck with a contract that doesn't pay him for the level of play he achieved last season. Either way...the Broncos look like a bunch of cheap, bold face liars. I'm so proud.

[Lonestar]

And he may not even show up for training camp THIS SEASON. Who gives a shit if we have him under contract if he refuses to play because the front office has been promising something that apparently they never intended to fulfil....even though he's been the perfect example of a professional.

Who knows....he could have thrown a temper tantrum like those other guys, got traded and got his money. Instead, he played the good, team guy and he's going to be stuck with a contract that doesn't pay him for the level of play he achieved last season. Either way...the Broncos look like a bunch of cheap, bold face liars. I'm so proud.



Poor Doom only going to make $3.1 Million this year.

LEt me add he is ours till we say else

get a life . If he does not show up then he is blessed with us for an extra year. IF we decide to keep a 1/3 OLB on the team.

The world will not end if he is gone.

[GEM]

Poor Doom only going to make $3.1 Million this year.

get a life . If he does not show up then he is blessed with us for an extra year. IF we decide to keep a 1/3 OLB on the team.

The world will not end if he is gone.

Who in the hell are you telling to get a life?

And we're no closer to where we need to be, the Super Bowl....we keep getting further and further away from it.

And by ours....you mean, he's on our roster...doesn't mean he's on the field.

[Lonestar]

Who in the hell are you telling to get a life?

And we're no closer to where we need to be, the Super Bowl....we keep getting further and further away from it.

And by ours....you mean, he's on our roster...doesn't mean he's on the field.



it is a saying

as for the super bowl maybe you did not notice but all those expensive FA over the past 10 years did not get us there also.

there is more than one way to skin a cat.

H
IF he wants to play football it will be in DENVER, until we release him as it stands RIGHT now that is thru 2012 unless they get another CBA in place.

That is hardball to help him and the other RFA to put some pressure on the NFLPA to get a move on it in addition there will be another 200+ RFA next year.

that is how it works in labor negotiating, I've seen the same thing for the past 30 years of being in management.

[Northman]

The world will not end if he is gone.

Well shit, we could say that about McDaniels too. :lol:

[Northman]

i
IF he wants to play football it will be in DENVER, until we release him as it stands RIGHT now that is thru 2012 unless they get another CBA in place.



Yea, got to teach that guy Doom a lesson. He's been nothing but cooperative throughout the transistion and has done all the right things. If Denver doesnt want to pay Doom and he can/or wants to go elsewhere we better hope that McD has the class to let him do so.

[GEM]

it is a saying

as for the super bowl maybe you did not notice but all those expensive FA over the past 10 years did not get us there also.

there is more than one way to skin a cat.

H
IF he wants to play football it will be in DENVER, until we release him as it stands RIGHT now that is thru 2012 unless they get another CBA in place.

That is hardball to help him and the other RFA to put some pressure on the NFLPA to get a move on it in addition there will be another 200+ RFA next year.

that is how it works in labor negotiating, I've seen the same thing for the past 30 years of being in management.

I don't care if it's a saying....don't use it in my direction or for anyone else here's either. We all have lives.

There are ways to treat your employees. You don't shit on them and expect for them to hang around.....and don't tell me about replacing him, because we've been trying to do that since the days of Bertand Berry. No talent teams don't win Super Bowls even if they are a great locker room. That feel good doesn't help if you don't have talent on the field.

As a good manager, and since you've done it for 30 years you should know, don't tell employees a bullshit story that you are going to take care of them and do everything in your power to do the exact opposite. Not only will you lose that employee, but that kind of cancer breeds. McD will lose his locker room if guys see that no matter how they go about it, they will either be traded or in the same situation that caused the rift in the first place and leave at the end of the contract. Either way, Denver is no longer a destination, it's a pit stop.

[broncobryce]

I wonder if its mcd's decision or bowlens?
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[T.K.O.]

I wonder if its mcd's decision or bowlens?
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actually i'm pretty sure most of the negotiations are being handled by xanders and his team (at least that is what mcD said on the radio the other day)

[T.K.O.]

As a good manager, and since you've done it for 30 years you should know, don't tell employees a bullshit story that you are going to take care of them and do everything in your power to do the exact opposite. .

while this is exactly correct....i really don't think the broncos are doing everything in their power to screw dumervil.that would be foolish.
i also think this little article cherry picked statements and combined them to give the impression things are worse than they actually are.
i listened to the interview with elvis and these comments did not come across nearly as hopeless or divisive as they appear here:salute:

[GEM]

while this is exactly correct....i really don't think the broncos are doing everything in their power to screw dumervil.that would be foolish.
i also think this little article cherry picked statements and combined them to give the impression things are worse than they actually are.
i listened to the interview with elvis and these comments did not come across nearly as hopeless or divisive as they appear here:salute:

Well...they aren't exactly any closer. According to Doom and his agent, the deal is stale mate, meaning no progress either direction. That's not how to get it done, especially while you are sending him letters that tell him if he doesn't sign a crap tender, you're going to lower his ability to earn that $3.1.

Doesn't it seem funny that everything seemed to be moving, both sides agreed that they were working a deal, up until right after the time Doom signed that piece of paper? He signs the paper, giving the Broncos what they want, and now contract talks have gone stale mate. Too good of a deal for the Broncos for it to be simply coincidental.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I don't care if it's a saying....don't use it in my direction or for anyone else here's either. We all have lives.

There are ways to treat your employees. You don't shit on them and expect for them to hang around.....and don't tell me about replacing him, because we've been trying to do that since the days of Bertand Berry. No talent teams don't win Super Bowls even if they are a great locker room. That feel good doesn't help if you don't have talent on the field.

As a good manager, and since you've done it for 30 years you should know, don't tell employees a bullshit story that you are going to take care of them and do everything in your power to do the exact opposite. Not only will you lose that employee, but that kind of cancer breeds. McD will lose his locker room if guys see that no matter how they go about it, they will either be traded or in the same situation that caused the rift in the first place and leave at the end of the contract. Either way, Denver is no longer a destination, it's a pit stop.

But that's just it, girlfriend... As long as we continue to be the New England Broncos, or at least try to play the part, we will continue to bleed talent for the "good of the team" and therefore we'll bleed fan favorites and our best players until we're no longer competitive. Guys like JR can say what they want about the way McDaniels is managing the franchise (make no mistake, he's the one calling the shots, not Xanders) because he's a Bellichick worshiper, but the fact is, the Patriots are on the downslide and there's nobody to blame but themselves.

How many players from their Championship teams are still there? How many, other than Brady, were rewarded with proper compensation for their play? Seymour? Nope, traded. Samuels? Nope allowed to leave via FA. Vrabel? Nope, traded. Green? Nope, allowed to leave. Branch? Traded. Mankins? Nope, tendered and threatening a holdout, TOM BRADY??? in the last year of his contract and so happy about his contract situation, that he's spending all of his time that's not mandatory in California. Should I go on?

In short, the Bellichick/Patriot way of using up your talented players, alienating them when it's time to pay up, and kicking them to the curb is failing and the league is taking notice.

McDaniels has brought a TEAM mentality to Denver which is GOOD. Unfortunately, he's also brought the NO PLAYER IS BIGGER THAN the team and that includes their paycheck and so we will chase off all of our high priced talent like Doom and Champ in hopes to replace them with cheaper players (which is possible, but highly unlikely).

I just hope we exercise a little bit of common sense before we finally alienate a guy we can't replace (like Clady) just so we can rub our nickels together. It's not like Bowlen is (or should be anyway) hurting for cash. We as fans have done nothing but sell out EVERY HOME GAME SINCE HE'S OWNED THE TEAM!

Quit being a cheapskate, Pat. Pay our talent and keep them in DENVER WHERE THEY BELONG!

[BroncoNut]

what a fascinating article.

lol.

[T.K.O.]

Well...they aren't exactly any closer. According to Doom and his agent, the deal is stale mate, meaning no progress either direction. That's not how to get it done, especially while you are sending him letters that tell him if he doesn't sign a crap tender, you're going to lower his ability to earn that $3.1.

Doesn't it seem funny that everything seemed to be moving, both sides agreed that they were working a deal, up until right after the time Doom signed that piece of paper? He signs the paper, giving the Broncos what they want, and now contract talks have gone stale mate. Too good of a deal for the Broncos for it to be simply coincidental.

well i'm on your side and really want the deal to get done,however....if things were going so swimingly prior to the tender deadline....the deal should have been done.so apparently there where some major stumbling blocks already in place.
if this article is true and doom wants 12.5 mil a year...i don't see it happening.
sadly:mad:

[GEM]

well i'm on your side and really want the deal to get done,however....if things were going so swimingly prior to the tender deadline....the deal should have been done.so apparently there where some major stumbling blocks already in place.
if this article is true and doom wants 12.5 mil a year...i don't see it happening.
sadly:mad:

Or they were pacifying Doom until he signed the tender and then cut off talks when they got what they wanted...

[BroncoNut]

I don't care if it's a saying....don't use it in my direction or for anyone else here's either. We all have lives.

There are ways to treat your employees. You don't shit on them and expect for them to hang around.....and don't tell me about replacing him, because we've been trying to do that since the days of Bertand Berry. No talent teams don't win Super Bowls even if they are a great locker room. That feel good doesn't help if you don't have talent on the field.

As a good manager, and since you've done it for 30 years you should know, don't tell employees a bullshit story that you are going to take care of them and do everything in your power to do the exact opposite. Not only will you lose that employee, but that kind of cancer breeds. McD will lose his locker room if guys see that no matter how they go about it, they will either be traded or in the same situation that caused the rift in the first place and leave at the end of the contract. Either way, Denver is no longer a destination, it's a pit stop.

Good Post. I agree with alot of this. I had a very similar experience with an organization known as "The Horsemen"

[GEM]

Good Post. I agree with alot of this. I had a very similar experience with an organization known as "The Horsemen"

:lol: Nut, thanks for making me giggle!! That was good.

[BroncoNut]

:lol: Nut, thanks for making me giggle!! That was good.

Seriously, that part reminded me alot of my association with them.

[Lonestar]

Yea, got to teach that guy Doom a lesson. He's been nothing but cooperative throughout the transistion and has done all the right things. If Denver doesnt want to pay Doom and he can/or wants to go elsewhere we better hope that McD has the class to let him do so.

do you not get it this is NFL wide the owners are pressing a point with RFA to get something done with the NFLPA.

Doom is a minor clog in the scheme of things and his agent has already told him this.



frankly I do not get all the hoopla concerning an 1/3 OLB.. when he grows up and learns his job he can get paid like a OLB.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Or they were pacifying Doom until he signed the tender and then cut off talks when they got what they wanted...

Which is what I suspect. There was a reason that several of us were leery when Elvis caved in and signed his tender. We all had a feeling that it would slow or stop contract talks completely. I think it sucks. I think we're treating Elvis poorly, and worst of all - I think we're setting a BAD precedent about a TEAM concept. We're starting to look like hypocrites and the players will take notice.

[Lonestar]

I don't care if it's a saying....don't use it in my direction or for anyone else here's either. We all have lives.

There are ways to treat your employees. You don't shit on them and expect for them to hang around.....and don't tell me about replacing him, because we've been trying to do that since the days of Bertand Berry. No talent teams don't win Super Bowls even if they are a great locker room. That feel good doesn't help if you don't have talent on the field.

As a good manager, and since you've done it for 30 years you should know, don't tell employees a bullshit story that you are going to take care of them and do everything in your power to do the exact opposite. Not only will you lose that employee, but that kind of cancer breeds. McD will lose his locker room if guys see that no matter how they go about it, they will either be traded or in the same situation that caused the rift in the first place and leave at the end of the contract. Either way, Denver is no longer a destination, it's a pit stop.



if you do not like MY sayings do not read them, have a gazilion of them you act like you are the only one that was intended for.


wow unbelievable

there are just so many thing that a HC can do one is to try and keep the peace.

Do you really think that Josh and DOOM are the only pieces to this puzzle. this is make or break time with the union, and IF two players in the game get hurt a bit not that 3.1 Million is hurting the guy, or the HC say that HE WANTS to get a deal done does not meant that he is going to sell the franchise to do so.

This is hard ball negoiatating between the power bookers in the union and the NFLPA.

now for my thoughts he does not deserve to be paid on sacks alone, he needs to be more than a hand in the dirt smallish DE that is playing an OLB spot. or he needs to bulk up and became a DE that can play more than rush the QB.

That my thoughts and since Josh has not returned my calls on this I'm not for sure what the thoughts of the Broncos are.

We all know that Doom while being a swell guy wants more than 1/3 of his expected 9 million per year salary.

SOunds like they at least gave him the right offer 3 mil of 9 million is 1/3 which equals the amount of skills his has at OLB.

Maybe they and he when signing it knew his true value.

[Northman]

lol.

Billy Jack FTW.

[Northman]

do you not get it this is NFL wide the owners are pressing a point with RFA to get something done with the NFLPA.

Doom is a minor clog in the scheme of things and his agent has already told him this.



Minor clog huh? Yea, we shall see when there is no one to replace his pressure on the QB. Keep dreaming in that fantasy world of yours JR. :lol:

[Northman]

Which is what I suspect. There was a reason that several of us were leery when Elvis caved in and signed his tender. We all had a feeling that it would slow or stop contract talks completely. I think it sucks. I think we're treating Elvis poorly, and worst of all - I think we're setting a BAD precedent about a TEAM concept. We're starting to look like hypocrites and the players will take notice.

Bingo. If they dont get on the ball this shit is going to backfire in his face badly.

[broncophan]

,
I don't care if it's a saying....don't use it in my direction or for anyone else here's either. We all have lives.

There are ways to treat your employees. You don't shit on them and expect for them to hang around.....and don't tell me about replacing him, because we've been trying to do that since the days of Bertand Berry. No talent teams don't win Super Bowls even if they are a great locker room. That feel good doesn't help if you don't have talent on the field.

As a good manager, and since you've done it for 30 years you should know, don't tell employees a bullshit story that you are going to take care of them and do everything in your power to do the exact opposite. Not only will you lose that employee, but that kind of cancer breeds. McD will lose his locker room if guys see that no matter how they go about it, they will either be traded or in the same situation that caused the rift in the first place and leave at the end of the contract. Either way, Denver is no longer a destination, it's a pit stop.

I don't have a life.....but thanks, Gem ,for sticking up for everyone.

[Lonestar]

Minor clog huh? Yea, we shall see when there is no one to replace his pressure on the QB. Keep dreaming in that fantasy world of yours JR. :lol:


you are so hung up on one player DOOM and his sacks that you really can't see the forest for the trees.

maybe down the line you and many other "fans" will get that this is just hard ball labor talks.

and it is ONLY beginning.

[Northman]

you are so hung up on one player DOOM and his sacks that you really can't see the forest for the trees.

maybe down the line you and many other "fans" will get that this is just hard ball labor talks.

and it is ONLY beginning.


Im hung up on a great player who does a lot for this team and should be rewarded for it. Maybe if you dig your head out of McD's ass you might see that. And if this just the beginning of treating team oriented players badly than suffice to say the Broncos will not improve and McD will be just be like the other numbnuts who have failed from the Belly tree much to the disservice of the team i love.

[TXBRONC]

Minor clog huh? Yea, we shall see when there is no one to replace his pressure on the QB. Keep dreaming in that fantasy world of yours JR. :lol:

F.Y.I. North. Dumervil is only a 1/3 OLB and we don't need the 1/3 he brings to the table because we already have six other guys who can do it all. Don't ask me who they are but they on the team as we speak. ;)

[GEM]

if you do not like MY sayings do not read them, have a gazilion of them you act like you are the only one that was intended for.


wow unbelievable

there are just so many thing that a HC can do one is to try and keep the peace.

Do you really think that Josh and DOOM are the only pieces to this puzzle. this is make or break time with the union, and IF two players in the game get hurt a bit not that 3.1 Million is hurting the guy, or the HC say that HE WANTS to get a deal done does not meant that he is going to sell the franchise to do so.

This is hard ball negoiatating between the power bookers in the union and the NFLPA.

now for my thoughts he does not deserve to be paid on sacks alone, he needs to be more than a hand in the dirt smallish DE that is playing an OLB spot. or he needs to bulk up and became a DE that can play more than rush the QB.

That my thoughts and since Josh has not returned my calls on this I'm not for sure what the thoughts of the Broncos are.

We all know that Doom while being a swell guy wants more than 1/3 of his expected 9 million per year salary.

SOunds like they at least gave him the right offer 3 mil of 9 million is 1/3 which equals the amount of skills his has at OLB.

Maybe they and he when signing it knew his true value.

I am forced to read your demeaning silly little comments. How about holding down a football conversation without getting personal.

And here's the problem with spewing personal rude statements, your football points get lost in the middle of that somewhere. Like it matters anyways.....you have your blinders on so freaking tight that it doesn't matter what anyone says, you refuse to listen. Which is just fine, it just makes me wonder why you bother with a message board which is stock full of other people's opinions.

[Lonestar]

Im hung up on a great player who does a lot for this team and should be rewarded for it. Maybe if you dig your head out of McD's ass you might see that. And if this just the beginning of treating team oriented players badly than suffice to say the Broncos will not improve and McD will be just be like the other numbnuts who have failed from the Belly tree much to the disservice of the team i love.

I will comment no further about DOOM in this thread as it was about something else to start with.

It appears that many of us will have to agree to disagree.
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[GEM]

I will comment no further about DOOM in this thread as it was about something else to start with.

It appears that many of us will have to agree to disagree.
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WHAT? The freaking title to the thread is Elvis on loyalty.

[slim]

I would say this is a product of the CBA, more than anything.

How can you sign someone to a long-term deal when you don't know what the rules are going to be? It makes it a little difficult.

[The Glue Factory]

I would say this is a product of the CBA, more than anything.

How can you sign someone to a long-term deal when you don't know what the rules are going to be? It makes it a little difficult.

Pretty much what JR was trying to say, but it seems like people got hung up on not looking past Doom to the larger issue of the CBA. The NFLPA could help Doom immensely by getting a CBA in place ASAP so that those unknowns for contract negotiations would no longer exist, allowing the Broncos and Doom to work out a contract to keep him here forever.

[Northman]

I would say this is a product of the CBA, more than anything.

How can you sign someone to a long-term deal when you don't know what the rules are going to be? It makes it a little difficult.

I disagree. It didnt stop Miami from signing Marshall or Chicago from signing Peppers. Im also seeing guys in NY getting signed to 4 year deals so although i can see how it might give a team pause i dont think its a crutch like some say here.

[T.K.O.]

we are not alone........
Colts' Polian: Lack of CBA hurts Wayne, Mathis
Writer Paul Kuharsky. 18 days 5 hrs 14 mins ago.

Colts president Bill Polian understands the contract issues that are keeping Reggie Wayne and Robert Mathis from minicamp, but says the lack of a collective bargaining agreement puts everything on hold.

[T.K.O.]

John Mara talks about lack of CBA progress
Posted by Mike Florio on January 19, 2010 11:07 PM ET
Giants co-owner John Mara, risking a six-figure fine for commenting on the league's labor negotiations, has decide to talk publicly about the status of the discussions.

"I don't think we're making any progress," Mara told Judy Battista of the New York Times. "We made a proposal in early November. I don't think we've received a meaningful counterproposal. The point that we try to make to them is that the costs and risks are much greater than they ever have been. Especially in this economy. I don't think there has been enough of a recognition on their part of that concept. . . . They want a deal that is equal to or better than the existing one, and that is not acceptable to us."

Mara's reference to the costs and the risks and the economy arguably bolsters the notion that the owners should open up their books to the union. Such comments ultimately could fuel a legal challenge by the players to force the teams to share their financial information.

Though Mara admitted that he's "frustrated" by the failure to move toward a deal, we're not sure that any of the owners should be expressing emotions other than resolve. And if the comments of Cowboys owner Jerry Jones from September 4 were sufficient to trigger a $100,000 penalty, there's a chance that Mara might be in line for a similar sanction, too.

Either way, Mara says he's resigned to the fact that 2010 will unfold without a salary cap.

And as we've previously explained (and undoubtedly will revisit soon), the lack of a cap won't be nearly as good for the players as the players have long presumed it will be.

[Northman]

All within the last couple of months and thats just the tip of the iceberg.

Oshiomogho Atogwe (S) re-signed/unrestricted free agent (five-year contract).
John Denney (DE) signed (three-year extension (through 2013)).
Brandon Fields (P) signed (two-year extension (through 2012)).
Tim Dobbins (LB) signed (two-year extension (through 2012)).
Boo Robinson (DT) signed (three-year contract).
Jahri Evans (G) re-signed/restricted free agent (seven-year contract).
Patrick Willis (LB) re-signed (five-year extension (through 2016)).
Bakari Grant (WR) signed (two-year contract).
Montrae Holland (G) re-signed/unrestricted free agent (two-year contract).
Tony Brown (DT) re-signed/restricted free agent (three-year extension (through 2012)).
Byron Leftwich (QB) signed (one-year extension (through 2011)).
Brandon Marshall (WR) re-signed (four-year extension (through 2014)).
Dwan Edwards (DT) signed/unrestricted free agent (four-year contract).
Darryl Tapp (DE) re-signed (three-year extension (through 2013)).
Benjamin Watson (TE) signed/unrestricted free agent (three-year contract).
Larry Johnson (RB) signed/unrestricted free agent (three-year contract).
Jeremy Bridges (G) re-signed/unrestricted free agent (three-year contract).
Rex Hadnot (G) signed/unrestricted free agent (three-year contract).
Tank Johnson (DT) re-signed/unrestricted free agent (four-year contract).
Antonio Bryant (WR) signed/unrestricted free agent (four-year contract).
Jamal Williams (DT) signed (three-year contract).
Jarvis Green (DE) signed/unrestricted free agent (four-year contract).
Will Witherspoon (LB) signed/unrestricted free agent (three-year contract).
Leigh Bodden (CB) re-signed/unrestricted free agent (four-year contract)
Jason Avant (WR) re-signed/restricted free agent (five-year contract).

[Ravage!!!]

It's NOT just one player. This ONE player, is at the end of SEVERAL other top-talent players have leaving. This ONE player, however, doesn't have the "side-bar" excuses that some fans lean on to justify the hemorrhaging of talent. Doom has been THE epitome of class and the icon of "towing the company line" since being on the club. He's said nothing disparaging against the club, the coach, or the organization. When asked about other players going through this VERY same thing with the team, Doom took the team's side.

SO now, you have the locker room watching the organization, seeing that Doom has been the ICON of what this team has been preaching. If Doom doesn't get paid well, and done with a VERY fair contract, the rest of the team is going to see that it does NOT matter what you do, what you say, how you act, NOR how you PLAY.... because you won't get paid. Is that REALLY what you want to say to the rest of your team (sorry.. TEAM), and those that might be coming in??

Not to mention those that try to pull this "poor Doom, he's onlly getting paide 3.1 million" junk. Who here is "ok" with doing the same work as the best at your company, giving the same results with the VERY best in the country..in the world... and not being paid with a fair comparison salary?? I'm sure everyone would just love to say... sure, pay me 1/3 the amount of the other guy, I don't care. BULL.

Also.. this CRAP about Doom being 1/3 a OLB, is just total BS. This is a passing league. Pass Rushing DE's have been given the big bucks for YEARS.. why? Because putting pressure on the QB is HUGE.... HUGE. Doom does that, and has done it with no one taking pressure from him on the other side.

[Northman]

Also.. this CRAP about Doom being 1/3 a OLB, is just total BS.

Yeeeeeep.

[Tempus Fugit]

It's NOT just one player. This ONE player, is at the end of SEVERAL other top-talent players have leaving. This ONE player, however, doesn't have the "side-bar" excuses that some fans lean on to justify the hemorrhaging of talent. Doom has been THE epitome of class and the icon of "towing the company line" since being on the club. He's said nothing disparaging against the club, the coach, or the organization. When asked about other players going through this VERY same thing with the team, Doom took the team's side.

No, it's just one player. What some of you here have been ignoring is the free agent signings the Broncos have made. The team has spent the money and it's paid players. Y'all seem to think that players automatically come up with perfect contract proposals and the teams are evil for not signing without delay.

Dumervil is not a top 5 linebacker. If you pay him top 5 money, you'll be overpaying him, as well as screwing with your salary structure and placing yourself in a less advantageous position when the salary cap returns. It's smart management to avoid that situation.


SO now, you have the locker room watching the organization, seeing that Doom has been the ICON of what this team has been preaching. If Doom doesn't get paid well, and done with a VERY fair contract, the rest of the team is going to see that it does NOT matter what you do, what you say, how you act, NOR how you PLAY.... because you won't get paid. Is that REALLY what you want to say to the rest of your team (sorry.. TEAM), and those that might be coming in??

New England is considered the most hardass team to negotiate with. Nonetheless, the Patriots are still able to sign free agents without any more issues than most teams.


Not to mention those that try to pull this "poor Doom, he's onlly getting paide 3.1 million" junk. Who here is "ok" with doing the same work as the best at your company, giving the same results with the VERY best in the country..in the world... and not being paid with a fair comparison salary?? I'm sure everyone would just love to say... sure, pay me 1/3 the amount of the other guy, I don't care. BULL.

Hey, a point of agreement! I don't begrudge the players what they make and I don't care that it's millions, as long as they don't insult us with the stupidities of lines like "have to feed my family".


Also.. this CRAP about Doom being 1/3 a OLB, is just total BS. This is a passing league. Pass Rushing DE's have been given the big bucks for YEARS.. why? Because putting pressure on the QB is HUGE.... HUGE. Doom does that, and has done it with no one taking pressure from him on the other side.

He's not an all around player, either as a linebacker or as a defensive end. He is a liability in the running game. The Broncos would be stupid to ignore that at contract time.

[Northman]

He's not an all around player, either as a linebacker or as a defensive end. He is a liability in the running game. The Broncos would be stupid to ignore that at contract time.

2009-

Elvis Dumervil: 17 Sacks, 41 Tackles, 3 PD, 4 FF (16 games)
DeMarcus Ware: 11 Sacks, 45 Tackles, 6 PD, 5 FF (16 games)
Dwight Freeney: 13.5 Sacks, 19 Tackles, 1 PD, 1 FF (14 Games)
Terrell Suggs: 4.5 Sacks, 44 Tackles, 5 PD, 1 FF (13 Games)

Looks like he is right up there to me. And aside from Suggs neither Ware
or Freeney have had to change positions, schemes, or DC's as much as
Doom has. And how, Doom will be on DC # what? 5 or 6? Yet the guy
doesnt bitch and goes about his business.


1st 4 years for each.



DeMarcus Ware:

53 Sacks, 145 Tackles, 13 PD, 18 FF

Doom:

43 Sacks, 106 Tackles, 8 PD, 10 FF

Freeney:

51 Sacks, 135 Tackles, 8 PD, 21 FF

Suggs:

40 Sacks, 71 Tackles, 16 PD, 12 FF


Considering all the crap that Doom has to endure here and without much help he is in the thick of it. So please spare me the "he is only 1/3 of a LB" crap. lol

[atwater27]

No, it's just one player. What some of you here have been ignoring is the free agent signings the Broncos have made. The team has spent the money and it's paid players. Y'all seem to think that players automatically come up with perfect contract proposals and the teams are evil for not signing without delay.

Dumervil is not a top 5 linebacker. If you pay him top 5 money, you'll be overpaying him, as well as screwing with your salary structure and placing yourself in a less advantageous position when the salary cap returns. It's smart management to avoid that situation.



New England is considered the most hardass team to negotiate with. Nonetheless, the Patriots are still able to sign free agents without any more issues than most teams.



Hey, a point of agreement! I don't begrudge the players what they make and I don't care that it's millions, as long as they don't insult us with the stupidities of lines like "have to feed my family".



He's not an all around player, either as a linebacker or as a defensive end. He is a liability in the running game. The Broncos would be stupid to ignore that at contract time.

So who's gonna pick up the 17 sack deficit when we dump him?

[Northman]

So who's gonna pick up the 17 sack deficit when we dump him?

Im sure McD will get an extra punter for that duty.

[atwater27]

Im sure McD will get an extra punter for that duty.

How bout another longsnapper? But no chump, spend a 2nd rounder on him. There is value there, but only McD in his infinite wisdom would see it.

[Tempus Fugit]

So who's gonna pick up the 17 sack deficit when we dump him?

So you expect Dumervil to put up another 17 sacks this season?

8.5
12.5
5
17

Don't bet the farm on it.

[Tempus Fugit]

Considering all the crap that Doom has to endure here and without much help he is in the thick of it. So please spare me the "he is only 1/3 of a LB" crap. lol

I didn't say that "he is only 1/3 of a LB", so let's not go there. I said that he's not a top 5 linebacker, which he's not, I said that he's not an all around player at either DE or LB, which he's not, and I said that he's a liability against the run, which he is.

As for what he's had to endure, I have no idea what you are talking about.

[Northman]

I didn't say that "he is only 1/3 of a LB", so let's not go there. I said that he's not a top 5 linebacker, which he's not, I said that he's not an all around player at either DE or LB, which he's not, and I said that he's a liability against the run, which he is.

Stats prove otherwise.


As for what he's had to endure, I have no idea what you are talking about.

That would probably be your problem then mate.

[The Glue Factory]

All within the last couple of months and thats just the tip of the iceberg.

Oshiomogho Atogwe (S) re-signed/unrestricted free agent (five-year contract).
John Denney (DE) signed (three-year extension (through 2013)).
Brandon Fields (P) signed (two-year extension (through 2012)).
Tim Dobbins (LB) signed (two-year extension (through 2012)).
Boo Robinson (DT) signed (three-year contract).
Jahri Evans (G) re-signed/restricted free agent (seven-year contract).
Patrick Willis (LB) re-signed (five-year extension (through 2016)).
Bakari Grant (WR) signed (two-year contract).
Montrae Holland (G) re-signed/unrestricted free agent (two-year contract).
Tony Brown (DT) re-signed/restricted free agent (three-year extension (through 2012)).
Byron Leftwich (QB) signed (one-year extension (through 2011)).
Brandon Marshall (WR) re-signed (four-year extension (through 2014)).
Dwan Edwards (DT) signed/unrestricted free agent (four-year contract).
Darryl Tapp (DE) re-signed (three-year extension (through 2013)).
Benjamin Watson (TE) signed/unrestricted free agent (three-year contract).
Larry Johnson (RB) signed/unrestricted free agent (three-year contract).
Jeremy Bridges (G) re-signed/unrestricted free agent (three-year contract).
Rex Hadnot (G) signed/unrestricted free agent (three-year contract).
Tank Johnson (DT) re-signed/unrestricted free agent (four-year contract).
Antonio Bryant (WR) signed/unrestricted free agent (four-year contract).
Jamal Williams (DT) signed (three-year contract).
Jarvis Green (DE) signed/unrestricted free agent (four-year contract).
Will Witherspoon (LB) signed/unrestricted free agent (three-year contract).
Leigh Bodden (CB) re-signed/unrestricted free agent (four-year contract)
Jason Avant (WR) re-signed/restricted free agent (five-year contract).

And of that list there's only a VERY few RFAs (three explicitly stated.) Most of those folks are UFAs. The big contention is with the RFAs (like Doom) because they can't just go to another team like UFAs so it's not quite the picture you're trying to paint.

[Tempus Fugit]

Stats prove otherwise.

No, they don't. That's the problem with just pulling stats without context. They just can't give the whole picture that way.


That would probably be your problem then mate.

You made a comment without explanation. I noted that I didn't understand what you were talking about. You chose not to explain. End of story, but no problem.

[Northman]

And of that list there's only a VERY few RFAs (three explicitly stated.) Most of those folks are UFAs. The big contention is with the RFAs (like Doom) because they can't just go to another team like UFAs so it's not quite the picture you're trying to paint.

Like i said, its just the tip of the iceberg. And that list isnt even including all the draft choices that are being signed to long term contracts.

[Northman]

No, they don't. That's the problem with just pulling stats without context. They just can't give the whole picture that way.




Uh yes the do. And ive explained it many times how his stats compare with the others even including surrounding talent, scheme changes, DC changes, and position changes. So there is no misrepresentation on my part here. Its the individuals who choose to ignore the context that dont get the whole picture here.

[TXBRONC]

So you expect Dumervil to put up another 17 sacks this season?

8.5
12.5
5
17

Don't bet the farm on it.

In his rookie season he wasn't starting. In in '08 when he had only five sacks he was hurt for a good portion of the season.

[TXBRONC]

No, they don't. That's the problem with just pulling stats without context. They just can't give the whole picture that way.



You made a comment without explanation. I noted that I didn't understand what you were talking about. You chose not to explain. End of story, but no problem.

Oh you mean like do when you popped off about Dumervil's sack totals with no context?

I hope you didn't sell that mirror you were trying pawn off onto me. It looks like you really need it.

[The Glue Factory]

Like i said, its just the tip of the iceberg. And that list isnt even including all the draft choices that are being signed to long term contracts.

Not much choice with the draft picks, you pretty much have to sign them to multi-year deals to get them to camp. UFAs? Pretty much the same as draft picks.

RFAs? Totally different scenario. They can't just walk like the UFAs can.

So yes there are lots of multi-year contracts being signed. But I don't see a lot of RFAs signing multi-year contracts, and your list supports that conclusion. Last time I checked Doom is an RFA, guess what? No multi-year deal for him either. Go back through that iceberg you mentioned and see how many RFAs have signed multi-year contracts.

[gregbroncs]

Just a question after reading 2 pages of this thread.

How can you be upset with the Broncos and not Dumerville's agent? There is an impass in negotiating means that BOTH sides can't decide on a fair value. Doom is a great player and a good person. However he is not one of the 5 best OLB's in the league and does not deserve to be paid as such. Without knowing what the obstacles are in this negotiation there is no way for me to take a side.

Simply put they both seem to be doing what is in their own best interest here and they don't seem to be able to agree on a fair value. How is that one sides fault and not the fault of both sides?

If you think Doom is one of the best OLB's in the game and they should be willing to pay him whatever he wants then I will just say I disagree.

I hope they work this out because I like Doom but I don't want to throw the house at a one dimensional player.

[Northman]

However he is not one of the 5 best OLB's in the league and does not deserve to be paid as such.

And you've already lost credibility. In case you missed it the last 500 times ive posted it.

2009-

Elvis Dumervil: 17 Sacks, 41 Tackles, 3 PD, 4 FF (16 games)
DeMarcus Ware: 11 Sacks, 45 Tackles, 6 PD, 5 FF (16 games)
Dwight Freeney: 13.5 Sacks, 19 Tackles, 1 PD, 1 FF (14 Games)
Terrell Suggs: 4.5 Sacks, 44 Tackles, 5 PD, 1 FF (13 Games)

Looks like he is right up there to me. And aside from Suggs neither Ware
or Freeney have had to change positions, schemes, or DC's as much as
Doom has. And how, Doom will be on DC # what? 5 or 6? Yet the guy
doesnt bitch and goes about his business.


1st 4 years for each.



DeMarcus Ware:

53 Sacks, 145 Tackles, 13 PD, 18 FF

Doom:

43 Sacks, 106 Tackles, 8 PD, 10 FF

Freeney:

51 Sacks, 135 Tackles, 8 PD, 21 FF

Suggs:

40 Sacks, 71 Tackles, 16 PD, 12 FF

[Lonestar]

So who's gonna pick up the 17 sack deficit when we dump him?

Are you really think he will get 17 sacks forever. He has beem up and down like a yoyo since he got here.

See no reason to believe. This coming year will not be a 6-10 year.

But then who got 17 sacks in 08. Had about the same year statiscally as 09. 8-8 that is. Just like that great #2 offence won so many games.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Northman]

Are you really think he will get 17 sacks forever. He has beem up and down like a yoyo since he got here.



Great point. Ware only got 20 sacks once.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

we are not alone........
Colts' Polian: Lack of CBA hurts Wayne, Mathis
Writer Paul Kuharsky. 18 days 5 hrs 14 mins ago.

Colts president Bill Polian understands the contract issues that are keeping Reggie Wayne and Robert Mathis from minicamp, but says the lack of a collective bargaining agreement puts everything on hold.

It's a bullshit excuse that certain FOs are using because they don't want to pay players. Plain and simple. They all got "lucky" when the current CBA expired and all of those UFAs (like Doom and Marshall) became RFAs and now all they had to do was tender them high enough to force other teams not to make them an real offer and voila... you get a top player at a bargain basement price for one more year.

Doom's contract has NOTHING to do with the CBA... NADA, ZIP, ZERO. The ground work is already in place with guys like Harrison, Suggs, and Ware. This is nothing more than a stall tactic by the Broncos so they don't have to pay Elvis until next year if they want to keep him.

Strange how this mysterious CBA thing didn't stop Kuper from getting PAID, did it? The team is jerking Doom around and it looks bad. Plain and simple.

[Bosco]

And he may not even show up for training camp THIS SEASON. Who gives a shit if we have him under contract if he refuses to play because the front office has been promising something that apparently they never intended to fulfil....even though he's been the perfect example of a professional.

Who knows....he could have thrown a temper tantrum like those other guys, got traded and got his money. Instead, he played the good, team guy and he's going to be stuck with a contract that doesn't pay him for the level of play he achieved last season. Either way...the Broncos look like a bunch of cheap, bold face liars. I'm so proud.

Again, this is the problem with Monday Morning Quarterbacks.

You want the team to keep Dumervil at any cost, but you're not the one who has to answer for it if that cost ends up hurting the team, yet you're almost certainly going to be one of the first who jumps all over the team if they end up in salary cap hell down the road.

The team never promised to give Dumervil a Ware/Suggs type contract. As much as I like Doom, he is simply not worth that type of money. If he comes down on his demands and takes a Harrison/Freeney type contract then he could be signed tomorrow. Ultimately, I'm reasonably certain that is what will happen.

The Broncos aren't cheap, nor are the liars, and the only ones who think differently are a small group of the fanbase. Just be glad we have highly paid professionals handling this, because if we followed your lead we'd be the AFC equivalent of the Redskins.

[Bosco]

It's a bullshit excuse that certain FOs are using because they don't want to pay players. That's simply not true. Not to say that some teams aren't taking full advantage of the situation, but the simple fact that they don't know what the salary cap will be like under a new CBA is justification alone for their fears.


Strange how this mysterious CBA thing didn't stop Kuper from getting PAID, did it? The team is jerking Doom around and it looks bad. Plain and simple. Kuper got $13 million guaranteed. Harrison and Freeney are around $30 million. Suggs got $38 million and Ware close to $50 million.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Again, this is the problem with Monday Morning Quarterbacks.

You want the team to keep Dumervil at any cost, but you're not the one who has to answer for it if that cost ends up hurting the team, yet you're almost certainly going to be one of the first who jumps all over the team if they end up in salary cap hell down the road.

The team never promised to give Dumervil a Ware/Suggs type contract. As much as I like Doom, he is simply not worth that type of money. If he comes down on his demands and takes a Harrison/Freeney type contract then he could be signed tomorrow. Ultimately, I'm reasonably certain that is what will happen.

The Broncos aren't cheap, nor are the liars, and the only ones who think differently are a small group of the fanbase. Just be glad we have highly paid professionals handling this, because if we followed your lead we'd be the AFC equivalent of the Redskins.

Why because she wants to resign the best pure pass rusher in the league and pay him MARKET VALUE?

I swear to heaven that there must be some folks on this board who don't remember life before Doom...

WE COULDN'T SACK THE QB OR EVEN GET PRESSURE IF YOU GAVE OUR D-LINE A MAP, A HEAD START, AND TOLD THE OPPOSING O-LINE JUST TO STAND STILL!!!!!! BEFORE DOOM, JOHN LYNCH WAS TIED FOR THE TEAM LEAD IN SACKS...... WITH 4!

Is that really where you want to go back to? Really? We finally, after all these years have a guy who can pressure the QB consistently and folks don't want to pay him because he's not "complete enough" for them? I don't give a RATS ASS if Dumervil EVER defends a pass or makes a tackle on a running play if he continues to get double digit sacks every year!

Mario "defensive captain" Haggan can make tackles. Robert "I don't get sacks and get demoted at OTAs but get paid first round money" Ayers can make some tackles. DJ "on the edge of greatness but never quite gets there" Williams can make some tackles. All of our brand new D-linemen who've all got fat wallets to match their fat asses who can't get sacks because they're too damned fat and slow can make some damn tackles.

Elvis sacks QBs... NO OTHER BRONCO ON THE ROSTER HAS PROVEN HE CAN DO THAT. That makes him ONE OF A KIND in my book. PAY THE MAN!!!

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Kuper got $13 million guaranteed. Harrison and Freeney are around $30 million. Suggs got $38 million and Ware close to $50 million.

What's your point? Are the Broncos so damned broke after selling out EVERY GAME for the last 25+ years that they can't afford to pay arguably the best pure pass rusher in franchise history (and that's saying a lot) market value? Elvis didn't set the market, he just wants what the other guys got. I don't hate him for it one bit. I wouldn't even hold it against him if he wanted to the "highest paid in the league". It's just sad that the Broncos can pay a bunch of over the hill, coming back from injury UFAs big bucks but can't seem to scrape together a fair contract for a guy that's done more for this defense in the past four years (and that includes everyone's favorite and recently paid handsomely DJ Williams) than anyone except maybe Champ Bailey.

I mean shit, who else are we paying? Cutler? Nope. Marshall? Nope. Scheffler? Nope. Clady? Nope (still on his rookie deal but he's doing a great job out-playing it). So who? Oh yeah, I remember. McD's bunch of ex-Patriot mercenaries are getting it. It was way more important to re-sign guys like Lloyd and Hochstein and give Paxton and JJ Arrington big bucks than Doom.

The sad part is, of all the guys McDaniels has thrown big money at the last 2 years, i can only think of 2 that have actually earned it (Dawkins and Goodman) Every other clown assed FA that McDaniels signed last year can take a long walk off a short pier if they are standing in the way of getting Dumervil signed as far as I'm concerned. I'd happily cut Jabar Gaffney and give his guaranteed money to Dumervil. Paxton, Hochstein, Arrington, Jarvis Moss, hell even Buckhalter can go.

Doom is a better player at his position than all of those above mentioned clowns. He's earned it. They haven't. Does it make any sense that Dumervil is one of the lowest paid players on defense? It boggles the mind.

[Bosco]

Why because she wants to resign the best pure pass rusher in the league and pay him MARKET VALUE? No, because she wants to pay him whatever he wants to stay here.


I swear to heaven that there must be some folks on this board who don't remember life before Doom... I won't bother quoting the rest of your post since the huge font and colors is incredibly childish and annoying, but I'll say this...

You must forget that Mike Shanahan doesn't run this team anymore. Our current coach comes from a team which built it's dynasty on elite defensive play. Unlike Shanahan, McDaniels won't spend the last 5 years of his tenure here staffing the defensive line with aged has-been's, never-was's and injury rejects, nor will he bring in a defensive coordinator who decides to put his pass rushers in a 4 point stance, among other gaffes.

Dumervil is not the only guy in the world who can rush a quarterback, and in the unfortunate situation that he leaves Denver in the next year, we'll see McDaniels continue to put a premium on rushing the passer and find a replacement accordingly.

[Bosco]

What's your point? Besides the fact that Kuper getting about 1/5th of what Dumervil wants (and 1/3rd of what he should get) is far less of a financial burden on the team and thus cannot be used as a measuring stick?

Nothing.

[Tempus Fugit]

Why because she wants to resign the best pure pass rusher in the league and pay him MARKET VALUE?


Dumervil is the best pure pass rusher in the league? There are more than just a couple of players who'd take issue with that.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Unlike Shanahan, McDaniels won't spend the last 5 years of his tenure here staffing the defensive line with aged has-been's, never-was's and injury rejects, nor will he bring in a defensive coordinator who decides to put his pass rushers in a 4 point stance, among other gaffes.

Dumervil is not the only guy in the world who can rush a quarterback, and in the unfortunate situation that he leaves Denver in the next year, we'll see McDaniels continue to put a premium on rushing the passer and find a replacement accordingly.

UMMM, take a look at last years D-line (rejects) and at the current one while you're at it. He brought in 3 new UFAs, all on the high side of 30, 2 recovering from injury, and all past their prime. What guys like Bannan, Green, Williams, and Vonnie Holliday (last year) don't fit your description almost exactly to a "T"?

I hate to say it but Green is a has been (and he never was anything but a backup in NE so i guess that makes him a "never was-has been"). Williams has been plagued by injuries of late and he may or may not last the season on two bad knees. He's great when healthy but it's been a awhile since he finished a season healthy so that makes him kinda an "injury reject" potentially. and then we have Bannan, another "never was". He's never really started and when he did, he played alongside guys like Ngata, Suggs, and Pryce. Gee tough to stand out when you're the only guy who doesn't draw double teams, huh? Bannan now has a chance to show he can be a full time starter, but he's never done it. Currently he's a prospective "never was".

Man, those double digit sackers just grow on trees don't they? Must be why they make so much damned money, huh? Don't you wish that just by saying "we'll see McDaniels continue to put a premium on rushing the passer and find a replacement accordingly" that it would just magically happen?

:coffee: :smack:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Dumervil is the best pure pass rusher in the league? There are more than just a couple of players who'd take issue with that.

They can take issue all they want. Elvis Dumervil 17 sacks. Everyone else, <17 sacks.

Oh yeah, guys like Harrison (Hampton, Woodley) Ware (Ratliff, Spencer, Spears) and Freeney (Mathis) have other guys on the D-line who can get pressure and command double teams, too. Elvis has.... yep, NOBODY BUT HIMSELF.

I'd call that THE BEST.

[Bosco]

UMMM, take a look at last years D-line (rejects) and at the current one while you're at it. He brought in 3 new UFAs, all on the high side of 30, 2 recovering from injury, and all past their prime. What guys like Bannan, Green, Williams, and Vonnie Holliday (last year) don't fit your description almost exactly to a "T"? Not quite. Our starting defensive line last year consisted of Peterson, Fields and Holliday/McBean. Peterson had been a solid backup and rotational player for several years, Fields was the best 3-4 NT on the market and relatively young, and while Holliday was getting up in years he was still a well established 3-4 end. All three of them lost their starting jobs to better players, and two of them are off the roster entirely.

Green and Bannan are both only 31, having entered the league in 2002. That's the equivalent of being middle aged and they have several years left in the tank. Williams is a few years older but has been pretty durable over his career.

That's a pretty vast difference between relying on guys like Simeon Rice, Sam Adams, Dan Wilkinson, Mario Fatafehi, Raylee Johnson, Marco Coleman and Darius Holland to anchor your line.


I hate to say it but Green is a has been (and he never was anything but a backup in NE so i guess that makes him a "never was-has been"). Green has been an excellent rotational pass rusher with the Patriots and started his fair share of games. He wears down as a regular starter, but we have McBean to keep him fresh.


Williams has been plagued by injuries of late No he hasn't. He had that injury to his arm last year, but before that you had to go back to 2001-2002 to find a year where he missed any significant time.


and then we have Bannan, another "never was". He's never really started and when he did, he played alongside guys like Ngata, Suggs, and Pryce. Gee tough to stand out when you're the only guy who doesn't draw double teams, huh? Bannan now has a chance to show he can be a full time starter, but he's never done it. Currently he's a prospective "never was". Bannan's been a pretty integral part of Baltimore's defensive line for the last several years. His versatility (can play DE or NT on passing downs) plays a big part in allowing Pryce and Ngata to rush the passer.


Man, those double digit sackers just grow on trees don't they? This is a 2 gap 3-4 we run. You aren't going to get double digit sacks from your linemen. Even Richard Seymour, arguably the best 3-4 DE of the last decade, never put up double digit sacks.

[Bosco]

They can take issue all they want. Elvis Dumervil 17 sacks. Everyone else, <17 sacks.

Oh yeah, guys like Harrison (Hampton, Woodley) Ware (Ratliff, Spencer, Spears) and Freeney (Mathis) have other guys on the D-line who can get pressure and command double teams, too. Elvis has.... yep, NOBODY BUT HIMSELF.

I'd call that THE BEST.

Demarcus Ware put up 20 in a season.

[Tempus Fugit]

They can take issue all they want. Elvis Dumervil 17 sacks. Everyone else, <17 sacks.

Oh yeah, guys like Harrison (Hampton, Woodley) Ware (Ratliff, Spencer, Spears) and Freeney (Mathis) have other guys on the D-line who can get pressure and command double teams, too. Elvis has.... yep, NOBODY BUT HIMSELF.

I'd call that THE BEST.

As I've noted before, here are Dumervil's sack numbers:

8.5
12.5
5
17


Jared Allen has clearly been a superior pass rusher to date, just to name one obvious person, and he was playing with the Chiefs for four years, so the "help" argument is a complete non-issue.

It doesn't help these types of discussion when people underrate players significantly, but it doesn't help when people overrate them, either.

[Lonestar]

Wow cranky folks.

As Bosco said I'm glad we have paid, knowledgeable, inteligent professionals running the team.

Instead of this bunch of chicken littles.

The sky is falling we will never get another sack again if we don't give doom the moon.

Our record was no better last year with both doom settting records and BM getting a nfl receiving record than the year before when no records were set other than the most appearnces in court, hospital, and commissioners court.

If he gets a contracts that the team can live with great if not tag the guy and overpay for 1/3 a OLB.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Lonestar]

And you've already lost credibility. In case you missed it the last 500 times ive posted it.

2009-

Elvis Dumervil: 17 Sacks, 41 Tackles, 3 PD, 4 FF (16 games)
DeMarcus Ware: 11 Sacks, 45 Tackles, 6 PD, 5 FF (16 games)
Dwight Freeney: 13.5 Sacks, 19 Tackles, 1 PD, 1 FF (14 Games)
Terrell Suggs: 4.5 Sacks, 44 Tackles, 5 PD, 1 FF (13 Games)

Looks like he is right up there to me. And aside from Suggs neither Ware
or Freeney have had to change positions, schemes, or DC's as much as
Doom has. And how, Doom will be on DC # what? 5 or 6? Yet the guy
doesnt bitch and goes about his business.


1st 4 years for each.



DeMarcus Ware:

53 Sacks, 145 Tackles, 13 PD, 18 FF

Doom:

43 Sacks, 106 Tackles, 8 PD, 10 FF

Freeney:

51 Sacks, 135 Tackles, 8 PD, 21 FF

Suggs:

40 Sacks, 71 Tackles, 16 PD, 12 FF

While I'm not using a calculator here these last 4 year totals. Look to me that Dware is 20% better in sacks 40% better in tackles 70 some odd % in PD and 80% better in FF.

Why does the reports say he wants DWARE money. When he is significantly worse in all areas. Even with DWARE having an injured hand most of last year. At least 20 to 80% off his numbers.

Good try - I still want a real OLB instead of a 1/3 OLB sack miester only. At any cost. That Josh et al sees fit.
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[Dirk]

Ha! :lol:

I love and hate when something blows up on the boards here!

The whole issue is we need to sign Doom. But don't break the bank.

/thread

:D

[slim]

I disagree. It didnt stop Miami from signing Marshall or Chicago from signing Peppers. Im also seeing guys in NY getting signed to 4 year deals so although i can see how it might give a team pause i dont think its a crutch like some say here.

Right, but just because someone else is doing it, that doesn't make it the smart thing to do. Those types of deals could easily come back to bite them in the ass.

It is a risk either way...risk pissing off the player and maybe losing him, or risk screwing up your cap for 4-5 years.

[Northman]

Right, but just because someone else is doing it, that doesn't make it the smart thing to do. Those types of deals could easily come back to bite them in the ass.

It is a risk either way...risk pissing off the player and maybe losing him, or risk screwing up your cap for 4-5 years.

you said it yourself, everything's a risk and letting quality players go is risky to winning championships. Besides, my point was that players are indeed getting longer contracts despite what some are saying on here which was my initial point.

[Northman]

While I'm not using a calculator here these last 4 year totals. Look to me that Dware is 20% better in sacks 40% better in tackles 70 some odd % in PD and 80% better in FF.

Why does the reports say he wants DWARE money. When he is significantly worse in all areas. Even with DWARE having an injured hand most of last year. At least 20 to 80% off his numbers.

Good try - I still want a real OLB instead of a 1/3 OLB sack miester only. At any cost. That Josh et al sees fit.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums


I said he was in the same AREA as the other guys you mentioned.

[TXBRONC]

As I've noted before, here are Dumervil's sack numbers:

8.5
12.5
5
17


Jared Allen has clearly been a superior pass rusher to date, just to name one obvious person, and he was playing with the Chiefs for four years, so the "help" argument is a complete non-issue.

It doesn't help these types of discussion when people underrate players significantly, but it doesn't help when people overrate them, either.

Hey great job just fling numbers out there with no context.

In '06 (8.5 sacks) Dumervil was a rookie and only used as situational pass rusher.

In '08 (5.0 sacks) he had injured hand that bothered him for most of the year. But he still tied for the team lead bad hand and all.

[TXBRONC]

I said he was in the same AREA as the other guys you mentioned.

Jr is being dishonest. Dumervil has only been in the League four years, and only one as OLB.

What is that old saying Jr likes to uses? Figures never lie but liars.....

[Lonestar]

I said he was in the same AREA as the other guys you mentioned.


Not sure I ever mentioned freney as an OLB and because of that would never comapre his money or stats to him, nor do I recall comparing the others to DOOM before IIRC you bringing them up.

I have consistently said he is not Dware in quality, quantity nor should he be paid like him.

[arapaho2]

Let the hate spew.


why would there be hate?


im sure the three amigos thought to themselfs...kubiaks ball is easier to catch than elways

its no big deal


whats weird though...if marshall was on the broncos still and said that....the haters would imediatly state " hes just playing the game, being nice, saying the PC thing"

[Tempus Fugit]

Hey great job just fling numbers out there with no context.

In '06 (8.5 sacks) Dumervil was a rookie and only used as situational pass rusher.

In '08 (5.0 sacks) he had injured hand that bothered him for most of the year. But he still tied for the team lead bad hand and all.

Wait.... I'm supposed to provide context for sack totals when the line I'm responding to was only about the numbers:


They can take issue all they want. Elvis Dumervil 17 sacks. Everyone else, <17 sacks.
?

OK, here's a little context......

Even as a rookie, Jared Allen managed 9 sacks. His lowest sack amount ever is 7.5 (2.5 more than Dumervil's career low, and only .5 lower than Dumervil's next lowest total), which happened while he was still in Kansas City with horrible teammates. That year, with 'only' 7.5 sacks, Allen had 5 forced fumbles and 6 fumble recoveries, and led the NFL in QB pressures. The last year Allen was in Kansas City, the team had 37 sacks. The next season, without Allen, the Chiefs set a league record for fewest sacks in a season, with only 10.

In other words, Jared Allen is a better pass rusher than Elvis Dumervil, to date. I hope that context helped.

[arapaho2]

Im sure McD will get an extra punter for that duty.


im sure ol belichek will release a guy capable of matching and much better than doom soon enough

[arapaho2]

Wait.... I'm supposed to provide context for sack totals when the line I'm responding to was only about the numbers:


?

OK, here's a little context......

Even as a rookie, Jared Allen managed 9 sacks. His lowest sack amount ever is 7.5 (2.5 more than Dumervil's career low, and only .5 lower than Dumervil's next lowest total), which happened while he was still in Kansas City with horrible teammates. That year, with 'only' 7.5 sacks, Allen had 5 forced fumbles and 6 fumble recoveries, and led the NFL in QB pressures. The last year Allen was in Kansas City, the team had 37 sacks. The next season, without Allen, the Chiefs set a league record for fewest sacks in a season, with only 10.

In other words, Jared Allen is a better pass rusher than Elvis Dumervil, to date. I hope that context helped.


heres a little context

2006....larry coyer
2007...jim bates...bob slowick
2008...bob slowick
2009..mike nolan
2010...wink

those are dooms Dc's in his first four years

2006 doom was a rookie...didnt start until mid season and only as a situational pass rusher

2007..doom started but in two ineffective systems, with both with the concept of Dts holding the point of contact while the De rushes sets wide and rushed the qb....the dts couldnt hold the POC if thier life depended on it..creating a perfect pocket

2008...bob slowick...no need to say more

2009...first year as a 3-4 olb...

[Northman]

Wait.... I'm supposed to provide context for sack totals when the line I'm responding to was only about the numbers:


?

OK, here's a little context......

Even as a rookie, Jared Allen managed 9 sacks. His lowest sack amount ever is 7.5 (2.5 more than Dumervil's career low, and only .5 lower than Dumervil's next lowest total), which happened while he was still in Kansas City with horrible teammates. That year, with 'only' 7.5 sacks, Allen had 5 forced fumbles and 6 fumble recoveries, and led the NFL in QB pressures. The last year Allen was in Kansas City, the team had 37 sacks. The next season, without Allen, the Chiefs set a league record for fewest sacks in a season, with only 10.

In other words, Jared Allen is a better pass rusher than Elvis Dumervil, to date. I hope that context helped.


Of course Allen is better than Doom. There is always going to be a player who is better than another player at any given position. The question is who the best player Denver has that can even get close to that kind of production. Answer: Elvis Dumervil.

[Northman]

heres a little context

2006....larry coyer
2007...jim bates...bob slowick
2008...bob slowick
2009..mike nolan
2010...wink

those are dooms Dc's in his first four years

2006 doom was a rookie...didnt start until mid season and only as a situational pass rusher

2007..doom started but in two ineffective systems, with both with the concept of Dts holding the point of contact while the De rushes sets wide and rushed the qb....the dts couldnt hold the POC if thier life depended on it..creating a perfect pocket

2008...bob slowick...no need to say more

2009...first year as a 3-4 olb...

I keep trying to explain that part of it too these guys but they just want to plain ignore it. Guys like Ware and company didnt have to worry about that kind of crap and never had to worry about changing positions either. It must be nice for those guys to have chemistry within the coaching ranks instead of playing musical DC's every year.

[Tempus Fugit]

heres a little context

2006....larry coyer
2007...jim bates...bob slowick
2008...bob slowick
2009..mike nolan
2010...wink

those are dooms Dc's in his first four years

2006 doom was a rookie...didnt start until mid season and only as a situational pass rusher

2007..doom started but in two ineffective systems, with both with the concept of Dts holding the point of contact while the De rushes sets wide and rushed the qb....the dts couldnt hold the POC if thier life depended on it..creating a perfect pocket

2008...bob slowick...no need to say more

2009...first year as a 3-4 olb...

Listing the DCs isn't "context", it's excuse making. Again, Allen was playing for the Chiefs. You know, that team in the AFCW that has won a total of 10 games in the past 3 years?

In other words, Jared Allen has been a better pure pass rusher to date.

[Northman]

Not sure I ever mentioned freney as an OLB and because of that would never comapre his money or stats to him, nor do I recall comparing the others to DOOM before IIRC you bringing them up.

I have consistently said he is not Dware in quality, quantity nor should he be paid like him.

You may not have mentioned it but others have and since they are argueing your points for you i included them in the discussion. Ive already stated that Ware is a better overall player than Doom but that Doom is in his range as far as stats are concerned and definitely deserves to be paid in that range. If you look at the stats i provided in his first 4 years despite being in a different position with different DC's Doom is already better than Suggs at that point of their careers. This isnt about whether Doom is a better player than Ware only that he is contributing within that range and is the best player who can get to the QB that Denver has. Sure, any player can be replaced but Denver doesnt have a great history of finding those types of guys on the street.

[Northman]

In other words, Jared Allen has been a better pure pass rusher to date.

Who says he's not?

[Lonestar]

I keep trying to explain that part of it too these guys but they just want to plain ignore it. Guys like Ware and company didnt have to worry about that kind of crap and never had to worry about changing positions either. It must be nice for those guys to have chemistry within the coaching ranks instead of playing musical DC's every year.

we get it, just are not buying that we should overpay a kid and he is a good kid for OJT.

If and when he develops into an OLB then pay him.

[TXBRONC]

Wait.... I'm supposed to provide context for sack totals when the line I'm responding to was only about the numbers:


?

OK, here's a little context......

Even as a rookie, Jared Allen managed 9 sacks. His lowest sack amount ever is 7.5 (2.5 more than Dumervil's career low, and only .5 lower than Dumervil's next lowest total), which happened while he was still in Kansas City with horrible teammates. That year, with 'only' 7.5 sacks, Allen had 5 forced fumbles and 6 fumble recoveries, and led the NFL in QB pressures. The last year Allen was in Kansas City, the team had 37 sacks. The next season, without Allen, the Chiefs set a league record for fewest sacks in a season, with only 10.

In other words, Jared Allen is a better pass rusher than Elvis Dumervil, to date. I hope that context helped.

Ah no. Allen got a lot more playing time his rookie season and still only managed .5 more than Dumervil did in his rookie season. So that in no way proves your point. Yep the Chiefs 37 sacks with Allen and then cratered without him. Take out Dumervil's 17 sacks and how great Denver's numbers look.

Again you're avoiding context Dumervil's career low was set in an injury plagued season. Allen has tried dealt something like that yet.

[arapaho2]

Listing the DCs isn't "context", it's excuse making. Again, Allen was playing for the Chiefs. You know, that team in the AFCW that has won a total of 10 games in the past 3 years?

In other words, Jared Allen has been a better pure pass rusher to date.


i wonder if allens worst year to date has anything to do with the coaching change in kc in 06?


nah that coulndt be...right?...i mean learning a new system is simple...right?

[arapaho2]

we get it, just are not buying that we should overpay a kid and he is a good kid for OJT.

If and when he develops into an OLB then pay him.


funny how YOU use the first year in a new system as an excuse for ortons lackluster play

yet disregard dooms first year in a totaly new position:coffee:

[Northman]

funny how YOU use the first year in a new system as an excuse for ortons lackluster play

yet disregard dooms first year in a totaly new position:coffee:

Pwned.

[Tempus Fugit]

Who says he's not?


Why because she wants to resign the best pure pass rusher in the league and pay him MARKET VALUE?

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1000122&postcount=67

[Lonestar]

You may not have mentioned it but others have and since they are argueing your points for you i included them in the discussion. Ive already stated that Ware is a better overall player than Doom but that Doom is in his range as far as stats are concerned and definitely deserves to be paid in that range. If you look at the stats i provided in his first 4 years despite being in a different position with different DC's Doom is already better than Suggs at that point of their careers. This isnt about whether Doom is a better player than Ware only that he is contributing within that range and is the best player who can get to the QB that Denver has. Sure, any player can be replaced but Denver doesnt have a great history of finding those types of guys on the street.

just to be clear I have not used them as references only Dware and his money and stats.

as far as DEN not finding those types before you ar spot on and when we did mikey allowed them to go.

The one part of the wood column today was wrong he allowed price to go because he was scheduled to make 9 mil that last year and wanted him to re-do his contract because as usual he was way over the cap, he had no other recourse but to get rid of him. and then price had to play for IIRC just a shade over 1 million plus incentives for the crows I suspect that had something to do with his numbers .

Now I realize that you have little faith in the new regime.

BUt just maybe with good coaching, good scouting,and great leadership we will find better players and keep them around IF their expectations are not unreasonable.

I'm will ing to give Josh as much time than I did to mikey before calling for his head. after all I gave mikey the benefit of the doubt until just after lelei was drafted and infect was a huge supporter of him way back then..

But then I saw where he was being disingenuous in his pressers. I saw the light and stated calling for a professional GM to be brought in.

I liked mikey as HC and OC just did not like any of his personnel decisions and after going back and looking at all of them I have to say none of them were stellar even the 06 draft that many here hail as great not so sure that other than BM most of them will be in the NFL in 5 years and even he may be retired with bum hips.

Kuper may be his saving grace in 06

[Tempus Fugit]

i wonder if allens worst year to date has anything to do with the coaching change in kc in 06?


nah that coulndt be...right?...i mean learning a new system is simple...right?

The difference is that I didn't use it as an excuse. Allen's sack numbers are better, and more consistent, than Dumervil's. He's been the better pure pass rusher. Looking for the "why" is irrelevant when you're still stuck on the "what".

And, again... in that 'worst year', Allen led the league in QB pressures, forced 5 fumbles and had 6 fumble recoveries. As he himself has stated, he just wasn't finishing well enough to get the sacks.

[Northman]

just to be clear I have not used them as references only Dware and his money and stats.

Fair enough.


The one part of the wood column today was wrong he allowed price to go because he was scheduled to make 9 mil that last year and wanted him to re-do his contract because as usual he was way over the cap, he had no other recourse but to get rid of him. and then price had to play for IIRC just a shade over 1 million plus incentives for the crows I suspect that had something to do with his numbers .

Well, he isnt totally wrong because at the time Pryce was fighting back problems before he was let go if i remember correctly.


Now I realize that you have little faith in the new regime.

Definitely not as strong as it once was.


BUt just maybe with good coaching, good scouting,and great leadership we will find better players and keep them around IF their expectations are not unreasonable.

At some point he is going to have to pay some players. Even NE at the top of their game had to pay guys like Brady, Moss, etc. At some point McD is going to have to shovel out money and when you have a guy like Doom who is the only true passer you have you might want to re-think how stingy you want to be with the money. And remember, this is a guy who is a pro McD type of player not a rock the boat kind of guy like Marshall. So if he doesnt get paid for doing all the right things and performing like he does thats not going to send a very good message to the rest of the team.


I'm will ing to give Josh as much time than I did to mikey before calling for his head. after all I gave mikey the benefit of the doubt until just after lelei was drafted and infect was a huge supporter of him way back then..

He wont have as long as Mikey thats just common sense. He will have this year and maybe next but if we arent into the playoffs by then he wont last. Bowlen wont accept anymore of these mediocre seasons for much longer. He wants results and wants them fast.


I liked mikey as HC and OC just did not like any of his personnel decisions and after going back and looking at all of them I have to say none of them were stellar even the 06 draft that many here hail as great not so sure that other than BM most of them will be in the NFL in 5 years and even he may be retired with bum hips.

Kuper may be his saving grace in 06


None of which is really relevant here. Shanahan is gone and mostly by his own doing. But now, its time for McD to step up to the plate and get results, not excuses.

[arapaho2]

The difference is that I didn't use it as an excuse. Allen's sack numbers are better, and more consistent, than Dumervil's. He's been the better pure pass rusher. Looking for the "why" is irrelevant when you're still stuck on the "what".

And, again... in that 'worst year', Allen led the league in QB pressures, forced 5 fumbles and had 6 fumble recoveries. As he himself has stated, he just wasn't finishing well enough to get the sacks.


i didnt use it as an excuse either


wierd how if your useing a situation, stats or anything...it just proves your point

if other use the same...its an excuse:coffee:

[Tempus Fugit]

i didnt use it as an excuse either


wierd how if your useing a situation, stats or anything...it just proves your point

if other use the same...its an excuse:coffee:

Not at all. I wasn't the one who brought up the coaching issue. Ergo, I wasn't using it as an excuse. Nothing weird about that.

[T.K.O.]

At some point he is going to have to pay some players. Even NE at the top of their game had to pay guys like Brady, Moss, etc. At some point McD is going to have to shovel out money and when you have a guy like Doom who is the only true passer you have you might want to re-think how stingy you want to be with the money. And remember, this is a guy who is a pro McD type of player not a rock the boat kind of guy like Marshall. So if he doesnt get paid for doing all the right things and performing like he does thats not going to send a very good message to the rest of the team.



.

Negotiations between Broncos general manager Brian Xanders and Dumervil's agent, Gary Wichard, had been moving, if at considerable arm's length. The bargaining sessions were rattled when the Broncos sent a letter to Dumervil this week stating that if he didn't sign his $3.168 million tender by Monday, the team would exercise the right to cut his 2010 salary to 10 percent above what he made last year.

[Lonestar]

Fair enough.

not seeing this after I hit send so this may be a dup

Well, he isnt totally wrong because at the time Pryce was fighting back problems before he was let go if i remember correctly.



Definitely not as strong as it once was.



At some point he is going to have to pay some players. Even NE at the top of their game had to pay guys like Brady, Moss, etc. At some point McD is going to have to shovel out money and when you have a guy like Doom who is the only true passer you have you might want to re-think how stingy you want to be with the money. And remember, this is a guy who is a pro McD type of player not a rock the boat kind of guy like Marshall. So if he doesnt get paid for doing all the right things and performing like he does thats not going to send a very good message to the rest of the team.



He wont have as long as Mikey thats just common sense. He will have this year and maybe next but if we arent into the playoffs by then he wont last. Bowlen wont accept anymore of these mediocre seasons for much longer. He wants results and wants them fast.






None of which is really relevant here. Shanahan is gone and mostly by his own doing. But now, its time for McD to step up to the plate and get results, not excuses.
there was nothing wrong with prices back at that point ist was all about the 9 mil he would have made same was true for MA that was scheduled to make more that 1 illiom.

now price did have back issues in prior years and IIRC they were not an issues then.

mikey needed tha cap space had he was a causality

I do not know of any players he as not paid that he wanted to keep on the TEAM so far.

as I have said many times this TEAM does not have a lot of money to expend at this time and probably near the top of the money scale for Pat and his revenue stream, they have several other players they need to have concerns about coming up soon so a whooper contract is probably not going to happen in DEN.

[Ravage!!!]

I'm curious, just exactly is this "TEAM" player? Because,if you go out and perform YOUR job, as you are asked to do, told to do, and do it well... what makes anyone else more TEAM than that person? If a guy catches 100 balls, isn't he just catching the balls thrown at him? Is that not TEAM? If a guy sacks a QB, is that not team?? Or is this "TEAM" mentality have to do with talking to the media, saying all the right things, and talking kindly of the coach all the time? Is that a TEAM player? Cause so far, I'm pretty confused as to what makes this TEAM guy that we are looking for?

[dogfish]

I'm curious, just exactly is this "TEAM" player? Because,if you go out and perform YOUR job, as you are asked to do, told to do, and do it well... what makes anyone else more TEAM than that person? If a guy catches 100 balls, isn't he just catching the balls thrown at him? Is that not TEAM? If a guy sacks a QB, is that not team?? Or is this "TEAM" mentality have to do with talking to the media, saying all the right things, and talking kindly of the coach all the time? Is that a TEAM player? Cause so far, I'm pretty confused as to what makes this TEAM guy that we are looking for?

well, it's certainly easy to see where the confusion could set in, but luckily i have a good handle on the topic and can clear things up for you. . .

a team player is simply a guy who gives maximum effort with no complaint, and does whatever the coaches ask of him. . .

a TEAM player is a guy who doesn't make much money because he sucks at football. . .

[Dirk]

:lol:

[T.K.O.]

well, it's certainly easy to see where the confusion could set in, but luckily i have a good handle on the topic and can clear things up for you. . .

a team player is simply a guy who gives maximum effort with no complaint, and does whatever the coaches ask of him. . .

a TEAM player is a guy who doesn't make much money because he sucks at football. . .

no.....this is an A-TEAM player............


http://image.com.com/tv/images/processed/thumb/0b/ae/10556.jpg

[Ravage!!!]

well, it's certainly easy to see where the confusion could set in, but luckily i have a good handle on the topic and can clear things up for you. . .

a team player is simply a guy who gives maximum effort with no complaint, and does whatever the coaches ask of him. . .

a TEAM player is a guy who doesn't make much money because he sucks at football. . .

Or at least willing to play for little money simply because he likes the Denver weather and friendly atmosphere?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1000122&postcount=67


Who says he's not?


Why because she wants to resign the best pure pass rusher in the league and pay him MARKET VALUE?

Yep, I did call him the best pure pass rusher in the league because he WAS last year. Like I said before 17 Sacks > than everyone else. You keep bringing up Jared Allen as if he's the end all and be all of pass rushers in the NFL. Allen had less sacks playing with a better defensive line and an offense that scored quickly forcing other teams to be one dimensional and pass more often which further aided Allen in padding his stats (allowing him to tee off and not have to play the run). Allen also got, IIRC, over half of his sacks last year vs the worst pass blocking team in the league, the Packers, who gave up the most sacks of any team. Not too impressive.

The thing is, he holds no bearing on the Elvis discussion because he's already been paid. If you just want to compare numbers, Mike Strahan holds the single season sack record, not Allen, but Allen gets paid more than Mike Strahan ever did. The use of what Allen has done in the past vs what Elvis did in the past is irrelevant to the discussion of keeping Elvis Dumervil in Denver.

It's not like we have the option to pick the Allen over Dumervil and pay him the money. Even if we did, Allen doesn't project as an OLB/pass rush specialist in a 3-4 and Elvis does. Therefore, Elvis is more valuable to US.

[TXBRONC]

Yep, I did call him the best pure pass rusher in the league because he WAS last year. Like I said before 17 Sacks > than everyone else. You keep bringing up Jared Allen as if he's the end all and be all of pass rushers in the NFL. Allen had less sacks playing with a better defensive line and an offense that scored quickly forcing other teams to be one dimensional and pass more often which further aided Allen in padding his stats (allowing him to tee off and not have to play the run). Allen also got, IIRC, over half of his sacks last year vs the worst pass blocking team in the league, the Packers, who gave up the most sacks of any team. Not too impressive.

The thing is, he holds no bearing on the Elvis discussion because he's already been paid. If you just want to compare numbers, Mike Strahan holds the single season sack record, not Allen, but Allen gets paid more than Mike Strahan ever did. The use of what Allen has done in the past vs what Elvis did in the past is irrelevant to the discussion of keeping Elvis Dumervil in Denver.

It's not like we have the option to pick the Allen over Dumervil and pay him the money. Even if we did, Allen doesn't project as an OLB/pass rush specialist in a 3-4 and Elvis does. Therefore, Elvis is more valuable to US.

Wait, wait, wait HP! Dumervil plays a different position than Allen. Nevermind they are with their respective teams to do the same thing.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Wait, wait, wait HP! Dumervil plays a different position than Allen. Nevermind they are with there respective teams to do the same thing.

I wasn't the one continually bringing up other players on other teams trying to compare Dumervil to the rest of the league's pass rushers as evidence why we shouldn't pay him like them. I was simply the guy pointing out that he had more sacks than they did last year. ;)

It would be completely silly to compare a DE in a 4-3 with an OLB in a 3-4, though because their responsibilities are so different...:rolleyes: :D

[claymore]

well, it's certainly easy to see where the confusion could set in, but luckily i have a good handle on the topic and can clear things up for you. . .

a team player is simply a guy who gives maximum effort with no complaint, and does whatever the coaches ask of him. . .

a TEAM player is a guy who doesn't make much money because he sucks at football. . .

Like McKBeabn

Posted from blackberry wirless

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Like McKBeabn

Posted from blackberry wirless

Easy now. That dude better watch out because the second he starts looking for starter-type money from starting... HE'S OUTTA HERE AND AN OVERRATED BUM! (and a team player)

[claymore]

Easy now. That dude better watch out because the second he starts looking for starter-type money from starting... HE'S OUTTA HERE AND AN OVERRATED BUM! (and a team player)
As long as he never lives up to his potential he will be fine. The first sign of a Bronco thats leaving is the Probowl. :laugh:

[TXBRONC]

I wasn't the one continually bringing up other players on other teams trying to compare Dumervil to the rest of the league's pass rushers as evidence why we shouldn't pay him like them. I was simply the guy pointing out that he had more sacks than they did last year. ;)

It would be completely silly to compare a DE in a 4-3 with an OLB in a 3-4, though because their responsibilities are so different...:rolleyes: :D

That's right they are completely different. :salute:

[Northman]

Negotiations between Broncos general manager Brian Xanders and Dumervil's agent, Gary Wichard, had been moving, if at considerable arm's length. The bargaining sessions were rattled when the Broncos sent a letter to Dumervil this week stating that if he didn't sign his $3.168 million tender by Monday, the team would exercise the right to cut his 2010 salary to 10 percent above what he made last year.

You highlighted the wrong parts TKO.

[Northman]

As long as he never lives up to his potential he will be fine. The first sign of a Bronco thats leaving is the Probowl. :laugh:


:lol::lol::lol:

[arapaho2]

Not at all. I wasn't the one who brought up the coaching issue. Ergo, I wasn't using it as an excuse. Nothing weird about that.


on the same hand im not useing the coaching as an excuse...rather as testimet to dooms versatility...to his character...and his playmaking ability, all supposedly qualities mcd seeks in a player

for him to go through all the coaching changes, all the differeing philosophys, schemes and position changes AND STILL BE RIGHT UP NEAR SOME OF THE BEST IN THE GAME...ISNT AN EXCUSE....

it should be a eye opener to his worth and potential...but then haters gotta hate:coffee:

[Tempus Fugit]

Yep, I did call him the best pure pass rusher in the league because he WAS last year. Like I said before 17 Sacks > than everyone else.

Sacks are not the end all/be all of pass rushing. Had you said "Dumervil led the league in sacks last season" and left it there, this discussion would never have gone down this path. Instead, you chose different wording, which has different meaning. Dumervil is not the best pure pass rusher in the league.


You keep bringing up Jared Allen as if he's the end all and be all of pass rushers in the NFL. Allen had less sacks playing with a better defensive line and an offense that scored quickly forcing other teams to be one dimensional and pass more often which further aided Allen in padding his stats (allowing him to tee off and not have to play the run). Allen also got, IIRC, over half of his sacks last year vs the worst pass blocking team in the league, the Packers, who gave up the most sacks of any team. Not too impressive.

I don't "keep bringing up Allen". I referred to him as one obvious example, and have had to defend that obvious example. It's not my fault if people are foolish enough to try claiming that Dumervil's a better pass rusher than Allen.


The thing is, he holds no bearing on the Elvis discussion because he's already been paid. If you just want to compare numbers, Mike Strahan holds the single season sack record, not Allen, but Allen gets paid more than Mike Strahan ever did. The use of what Allen has done in the past vs what Elvis did in the past is irrelevant to the discussion of keeping Elvis Dumervil in Denver.

The reason you don't directly compare Allen and Dumervil for contract purposes is that they play different positions. However, contrary to your claim, the fact that one has already been paid and the other hasn't is precisely why you would compare them. The one signed would serve as a benchmark for the unsigned player.


It's not like we have the option to pick the Allen over Dumervil and pay him the money. Even if we did, Allen doesn't project as an OLB/pass rush specialist in a 3-4 and Elvis does. Therefore, Elvis is more valuable to US.

:tsk:

Why don't people think through their posts? Elvis is more valuable to US? Elvis is currently worth the contract he signed. Using your argument, the team has the 'option' to pay Dumervil a relative pittance this season and then to franchise his ass next year, since any CBA is likely going to keep some form of the franchise tag for at least the first couple of years in order for teams to adapt. Using your argument, the team's smartest move would be to break off negotiations with Dumervil's agent today and tell him that he's going to be playing for the tender this upcoming season with no contract talks until after the CBA is dealt with.

Orton is more valuable to the Broncos than Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. I'm pretty sure that it we were talking about better quarterbacks, you wouldn't be using this weak sauce of a claim to try telling us that Orton was the best pure passer.

[weazel]

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/06/22/they-said-it-the-week-of-june-21

Dolphins new WR Brandon Marshall, gushing about QB Chad Henne, as quoted on SunSentinel.com: "Chad's ball is easier to catch [than former Broncos QB Jay Cutler]. He has one of the most talented arms that I've seen. It's going to be fun. This guy — his work ethic in the classroom and on the field — it's going to be exciting to play with him and to grow and learn from him, too." Marshall went on to praise head coach Tony Sparano: "I don't know the last time I've been more inspired. … There are no individuals. He treats everyone the same. You know what you are going to get, I've learned that in my short time here already. I look forward to just trying to run through a brick wall for him. He's an awesome guy and an awesome coach."



LMAO!!

Marshall is definitely a character! Man this made me laugh.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Sacks are not the end all/be all of pass rushing. Had you said "Dumervil led the league in sacks last season" and left it there, this discussion would never have gone down this path. Instead, you chose different wording, which has different meaning. Dumervil is not the best pure pass rusher in the league.


That's your opinion. I still affirm he is in mine. He did more with much less than all of the other guys (both 3-4 OLBs and 4-3 DEs) that are considered "top pass rushers" in this league.



I don't "keep bringing up Allen". I referred to him as one obvious example, and have had to defend that obvious example. It's not my fault if people are foolish enough to try claiming that Dumervil's a better pass rusher than Allen.

You're the one who brought him up as your OPINION of who you thought was the best pass rusher in the league to counter my opinion that Elvis is. YOU brought him up. No one else ever even mentioned his name. Most folks were comparing apples to apples and posting stats about guys like Ware and Suggs (guys who play more stand-up OLB like Doom last season).




The reason you don't directly compare Allen and Dumervil for contract purposes is that they play different positions. However, contrary to your claim, the fact that one has already been paid and the other hasn't is precisely why you would compare them. The one signed would serve as a benchmark for the unsigned player.

Okay, so Dumervil should be paid like Allen then? I AGREE!!!




:tsk:

Why don't people think through their posts? Elvis is more valuable to US? Elvis is currently worth the contract he signed. Using your argument, the team has the 'option' to pay Dumervil a relative pittance this season and then to franchise his ass next year, since any CBA is likely going to keep some form of the franchise tag for at least the first couple of years in order for teams to adapt. Using your argument, the team's smartest move would be to break off negotiations with Dumervil's agent today and tell him that he's going to be playing for the tender this upcoming season with no contract talks until after the CBA is dealt with.

Orton is more valuable to the Broncos than Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. I'm pretty sure that it we were talking about better quarterbacks, you wouldn't be using this weak sauce of a claim to try telling us that Orton was the best pure passer.

I don't even know what your point is with this. It makes no sense at all. I was talking about Dumervil being more valuable to us as a pass rushing 3-4 OLB (because we play the 3-4 defense) than Allen as a 4-3 DE (which we don't). Allen would be as worthwhile to be in Denver as Albert Haynesworth is in Washington's 3-4. That's was my point. You are the one who compared apples to oranges with your Captain Mullet love fest in even bringing Allen into the conversation. As to your blabbering about Orton, why is it I can't get away from that bum even in a Dumervil thread?

Of course Manning and Brady are worth more than Orton... If you lined them up and gave McDaniels the option to pick one, do you think he'd take Kyle???? My example was if we had the choice between Allen and Doom, I still think we take Doom because he fits our scheme. Maybe you're the one who should read and THINK before you post :tsk:.

[GEM]

Listen kindergartners, I'll have none of your name-calling to sully up this highly fancy thread!!


Plain english...knock off the personal comments. There's plenty of fighting to be done without the low blows.


Mmmmmkay!

[arapaho2]

Sacks are not the end all/be all of pass rushing. Had you said "Dumervil led the league in sacks last season" and left it there, this discussion would never have gone down this path. Instead, you chose different wording, which has different meaning. Dumervil is not the best pure pass rusher in the league.

i do believe 17 > 14...i might need to brush up on my math though



I don't "keep bringing up Allen". I referred to him as one obvious example, and have had to defend that obvious example. It's not my fault if people are foolish enough to try claiming that Dumervil's a better pass rusher than Allen.


17 > 14




The reason you don't directly compare Allen and Dumervil for contract purposes is that they play different positions. However, contrary to your claim, the fact that one has already been paid and the other hasn't is precisely why you would compare them. The one signed would serve as a benchmark for the unsigned player.

you dont use a DEs contract as a bench mark in a OLbrs contract...do you?



:tsk:


Why don't people think through their posts? Elvis is more valuable to US? Elvis is currently worth the contract he signed. Using your argument, the team has the 'option' to pay Dumervil a relative pittance this season and then to franchise his ass next year, since any CBA is likely going to keep some form of the franchise tag for at least the first couple of years in order for teams to adapt. Using your argument, the team's smartest move would be to break off negotiations with Dumervil's agent today and tell him that he's going to be playing for the tender this upcoming season with no contract talks until after the CBA is dealt with.

true...lets show the team that true professionals..team players...players with high character, high valued, players who honor thier contract even though they outplay it.....will be rewarded by a bitch slap of a franchise tag....that ought to keep quality players here:lol::lol:


Orton is more valuable to the Broncos than Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. I'm pretty sure that it we were talking about better quarterbacks, you wouldn't be using this weak sauce of a claim to try telling us that Orton was the best pure passer.

wait....wait...orton is more valuable than brady or manning?...:lol::lol::lol:

[T.K.O.]

LMAO!!

Marshall is definitely a character! Man this made me laugh.

i was wondering when he caught a pass from henne ?
was'nt he riding an exercise bike during ota's?
kind of a dig at cutler though...i thought they were bff's:laugh:
and why no talk of orton ? the guy who helped him get his new deal by throwing him the ball 30 times a game:laugh:

[Tempus Fugit]

wait....wait...orton is more valuable than brady or manning?...:lol::lol::lol:

By the logic of the poster I was responding to, yes. After all, he's with the team and they aren't.


As for the rest, your responses make no sense.

[Lonestar]

By the logic of the poster I was responding to, yes. After all, he's with the team and they aren't.

can't be logical here must be against forum rules.

[jhildebrand]

Sacks are not the end all/be all of pass rushing.

Are you serious? :confused:

Of course they are! :lol:

[Northman]

Are you serious? :confused:

Of course they are! :lol:

Dont you know? Jared Allen is wanted more because he can tackle a running back. :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

Dont you know? Jared Allen is wanted more because he can tackle a running back. :lol:

Yeah.. THATS why Allen was traded for with top picks and given all that money, because he tackles a RB. Just like the reason Marshall was given all that money, because he can block. :beer:

[Bosco]

Are you serious? :confused:

Of course they are! :lol:

Actually Tempus is correct here. Pressures are almost as important as sacks in grading out pass rushers, plus that is usually what leads to interceptions.

That said, I haven't seen the stats but I wouldn't be surprised if Dumervil ranked highly there as well.

[Dreadnought]

Actually Tempus is correct here. Pressures are almost as important as sacks in grading out pass rushers, plus that is usually what leads to interceptions.

That said, I haven't seen the stats but I wouldn't be surprised if Dumervil ranked highly there as well.

Not only interceptions but keeping a QB from seeing the field clearly and unmolested. Good pressure may cause him to dump off to the FB for a 3 yard gain rather than seeing the WR who just broke clear 30 yards downfield

[LordTrychon]

Actually Tempus is correct here. Pressures are almost as important as sacks in grading out pass rushers, plus that is usually what leads to interceptions.

That said, I haven't seen the stats but I wouldn't be surprised if Dumervil ranked highly there as well.

Outsiders did something not too long ago... I don't remember exactly what was said, but Dumervil and Hali were two of the most outstanding at getting hurries, but needed the most help (i.e. nobody else was getting hurries on their team)

[Bosco]

Not only interceptions but keeping a QB from seeing the field clearly and unmolested. Good pressure may cause him to dump off to the FB for a 3 yard gain rather than seeing the WR who just broke clear 30 yards downfield

Exactly.


Outsiders did something not too long ago... I don't remember exactly what was said, but Dumervil and Hali were two of the most outstanding at getting hurries, but needed the most help (i.e. nobody else was getting hurries on their team)

That doesn't surprise me at all. Hopefully between Ayers continued development and Martindale's more aggressive scheme, we'll get more pressure.

[Lonestar]

Exactly.



That doesn't surprise me at all. Hopefully between Ayers continued development and Martindale's more aggressive scheme, we'll get more pressure.


hope and change will be working for us .. :salute:

[jhildebrand]

Dont you know? Jared Allen is wanted more because he can tackle a running back. :lol:

And rock an AWESOME mullet :cool:

[jhildebrand]

Actually Tempus is correct here. Pressures are almost as important as sacks in grading out pass rushers, plus that is usually what leads to interceptions.

Operative word there being ALMOST!

Sacks are a tackle for a loss at a minimum, they often lead to fumbles, and most certainly get to a QB's psyche.

When was the last time a d lineman got a big contract solely on his ability to create pressure. Guys get paid for sacks-the ability to actually get to the QB.

That's the difference between Ayers and Dumervil at this point: one gets sacks and the other has gotten pressures.

[jhildebrand]

Not only interceptions but keeping a QB from seeing the field clearly and unmolested. Good pressure may cause him to dump off to the FB for a 3 yard gain rather than seeing the WR who just broke clear 30 yards downfield

Big Ben, Philip Rivers and John Elway have and had no problems with hurries and pressure. In fact, Rivers is the best in the NFL after contact!

That's the problem with pressure: it can lead to a turn over but often times turns into big plays as well. Sacks ensure that a big play cant happen.

[Bosco]

Operative word there being ALMOST!

Sacks are a tackle for a loss at a minimum, they often lead to fumbles, and most certainly get to a QB's psyche.

When was the last time a d lineman got a big contract solely on his ability to create pressure. Guys get paid for sacks-the ability to actually get to the QB.

That's the difference between Ayers and Dumervil at this point: one gets sacks and the other has gotten pressures.

I understand that, and agree with it, but when Tempus says that sacks aren't the be all/end all of pass rushing, he is technically correct.

[Tempus Fugit]

I should be surprised that people are arguing the point about sacks, but somehow I'm not. So, how about hearing it from arguably the best defensive mind in the game?


It isn’t always about sacks, [that)] can be overrated. It’s about getting pressure on the passer, taking care of your responsibilities first. There’s a time and a place for everything.

http://smartfootball.com/uncategorized/a-premature-look-at-the-ne-patriots-changes-on-d#more-163

[Tempus Fugit]

IRVING — Greg Ellis smiles as he thinks about something former coach Bill Parcells used to tell him.

"Coach Parcells, and a lot of other coaches, said sacks are overrated," the Dallas Cowboys outside linebacker said. "And they are. But that's the NFL. That's how we're measured."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2008444625_webdallas27.html

[Northman]

So Jared Allen is overrated. We get it.

[Lonestar]

Not sure that you do.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[shank]

Let the hate spew.

i hate you

[dogfish]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2008444625_webdallas27.html

parcells was head coach of the giants for eight years, and the organization retained lawrence taylor's services for all of those years. . .

you really think it was mostly because of the quarterback pressures?


bah. . . what a dumb little detail to quibble about. . . anyone who actually WATCHED our games last year understands that dumervil was very good at generating both, and anyone who has watched the guy through his career here should understand that he is a natural pass rusher. . .

DJ williams and darrell reid both had career highs in sacks last year. . . andra davis had the second-highest total of his career (and highest since '03), and even vonnie holliday had his highest total in four years. . . certainly there are other factors that contributed (nolan, 3-4, etc), but i think doom's presence was obviously felt. . . and more so, if we're freaking smart we will not only do what's necessary to lock this guy up, but we'll do whatever we can to find another guy who can play oppposite him and really take advantage-- unless ayers can be that guy, of course. . . but either way, we get another legit rusher to combine with elvis long term, and we've got a chance to have that devestating pass rush that can take over games-- especially in this quarterback-driven league. . .

three of the four QBs playing in this past year's championship games were peyton manning, drew brees and brett favre. . . you want to build a team that can consistently compete for championships, you better have both a good quarterback of your own, and some guys who can slow down the really good ones you'll probably have to beat. . .

[Ravage!!!]

Again.. you can say that "sacks aren't the end all" .. but thats what gets you paid. Why does it get you paid? Because if you are getting sacks, you are also causing pressure when you DON'T get the sacks. I would bet a hefty sum, that the guys that normally get the most sacks, are those that get the most pressure. If they aren't giving the most pressure.. they MOST CERTAINLY are getting the most attention from the OL, because they DO cause sacks. THus, the offense has to be concerned about the players that get sacks and not about the guy that might cause 'pressure.'

So if we are talking about Doom getting a new contract, we aren't going to base that on this ridiculous theory that "pressure" is as important as the sacks. Its not.. most certainly not when you are talking about getting paid. ITs most certainly not when the offense has to keep an eye on the guy GETTING the sacks. Thats a nice attempt at a deflection, but its not even close to being a reality. Pressure is nice, but having the ability to actually GET the sack is so much more important in a passing league like the NFL... hence the big pay-checks to those that get the sacks.

Who gets paid more, those that sack, those that pressure, or those that don't sack and make tackles?

[Lonestar]

Dog you make some great points.

Yet signing him at all costs can also be determental.
Y'all seem to forget that one mega buck deal can cause issues in signing other players.

And who is to say that all the others get career high sacks just may be the reason that doom did also.

Guess that is what we pay coaches to figure out.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[broncobryce]

i hate you

Why, thank you! :lol:

[jhildebrand]

Guess that is what we pay coaches to figure out.


Most teams pay a REAL GM for that. :tsk:

[Tempus Fugit]

parcells was head coach of the giants for eight years, and the organization retained lawrence taylor's services for all of those years. . .

you really think it was mostly because of the quarterback pressures?



A great year for a sack 'artist' is 16 sacks. That's just one per game. If you want to think that one play per game is what the fuss is all about, more power to you.

[jhildebrand]

I was thinking about this more and something dawned on me (rare I know :lol:).

I have said Denver hasn't had somebody like Dumervil since Hayward and Berry. That isn't true!

Denver had Trevor Pryce. Which is funny, because Pryce always drew double and triple teams because he was usually the only one on our line worth a damn.

Funny thing is when it came time to take care of Pryce he wasn't worth it because "he couldn't get to the QB." He could pressure and take pressure off other guys but "how could you possibly pay the guy when he can't beat double teams." Funny now the argument has changed when talking about Dumervil.

Another funny thing, Pryce went to Baltimore where teams couldn't double and triple team him and a funny thing happened-he owned people! Dogfish is right, Dumervil needs to be locked up (for a number of reasons) and the team needs to get him some help (if Ayers and Moss v 3.5 don't work).

[Bosco]

Most teams pay a REAL GM for that. :tsk:

We have a real GM. Brian Xanders.


I was thinking about this more and something dawned on me (rare I know :lol:).

I have said Denver hasn't had somebody like Dumervil since Hayward and Berry. That isn't true!

Denver had Trevor Pryce. Which is funny, because Pryce always drew double and triple teams because he was usually the only one on our line worth a damn.

Funny thing is when it came time to take care of Pryce he wasn't worth it because "he couldn't get to the QB." He could pressure and take pressure off other guys but "how could you possibly pay the guy when he can't beat double teams." Funny now the argument has changed when talking about Dumervil.

Another funny thing, Pryce went to Baltimore where teams couldn't double and triple team him and a funny thing happened-he owned people! I'm a huge fan of Trevor Pryce, but let's be honest here, he was never as effective at DE as he was at DT and later in his career you never knew if he was actually going to bring real effort in every game.

You'll be happy to know though, that the guy who did alot of the dirty work in Baltimore so guys like Ngata, Pryce and Suggs could all be 1 gap players is Justin Bannan, and he is now here in Denver.

[jhildebrand]

We have a real GM. Brian Xanders.

He is? :confused:

Could have fooled me. When there is issues with contracts, hold outs, player drama you typically hear from the real GM not the coach. Look at SD for example, you don't hear Norv Turner addressing everything. You hear the GM AJ Smith. In GB it is Ted Thompson. In Miami it is usually Parcells and once in a while Ireland. Newsome in Baltimore. The list goes on.

If Xanders is the true GM how is it we never even have so much as a soundbite from the guy from any of the Cutler issues, the Marsall issues, the Scheffler issue, the Hillis trade....? :confused:

Because Xanders is a cap and contract guy and nothing more!



I'm a huge fan of Trevor Pryce, but let's be honest here, he was never as effective at DE as he was at DT and later in his career you never knew if he was actually going to bring real effort in every game.

You'll be happy to know though, that the guy who did alot of the dirty work in Baltimore so guys like Ngata, Pryce and Suggs could all be 1 gap players is Justin Bannan, and he is now here in Denver.

So Justin Bannan got Haloti Ngata to the Pro Bowl? :confused: Bannan got Suggs that big deal that the Broncos so far seem incapable of giving to Dumervil? :confused:

He did this despite the fact he was a staerter in only 17 of 32 games the last two seasons?

I would disagree with you, Bosco. The guy was a part time player. It is hard to argue a part time player is responsible for most of a full time players success let alone multiple players.

I like Bannan because he is a CU guy like myself. I think he will do well here but I don't expect him to be probowl bound. If he is, serve up this post and I will gladly eat my crow :D

[Bosco]

He is? :confused:

Could have fooled me. When there is issues with contracts, hold outs, player drama you typically hear from the real GM not the coach. Look at SD for example, you don't hear Norv Turner addressing everything. You hear the GM AJ Smith. In GB it is Ted Thompson. In Miami it is usually Parcells and once in a while Ireland. Newsome in Baltimore. The list goes on.

If Xanders is the true GM how is it we never even have so much as a soundbite from the guy from any of the Cutler issues, the Marsall issues, the Scheffler issue, the Hillis trade....? :confused:

Because Xanders is a cap and contract guy and nothing more! What do you think GM's do these days? The days of the GM being the face of the franchise and head coach simply doing the coaching are fading fast. Sure there are a couple teams that still go by the old model, but how successful are they? San Diego has arguably been the most talented team in the league over the last 4 years, yet they've repeatedly choked in the playoffs with two vastly different coaches. Dallas? A poor man's San Diego. Oakland? Yeah, that's the way to build a winning team.

Of the teams who run their front office like you describe, only Baltimore could be considered a success. The Dolphins had a good year until Parcells and then a not so good one, so the jury is still out on them.

The working relationship that McDaniels and Xanders have is basically the same as what Belichick/Pioli and Shanahan/Sundquist had.


So Justin Bannan got Haloti Ngata to the Pro Bowl? :confused: Bannan got Suggs that big deal that the Broncos so far seem incapable of giving to Dumervil? :confused:

He did this despite the fact he was a staerter in only 17 of 32 games the last two seasons?

I would disagree with you, Bosco. The guy was a part time player. It is hard to argue a part time player is responsible for most of a full time players success let alone multiple players. That's not what I said. I said he was the guy doing all the dirty work so guys like Pryce, Suggs and Ngata could penetrate 1 gaps and get after the quarterback. He split time in that role with Dwan Edwards (who we also tried to sign).


I like Bannan because he is a CU guy like myself. I think he will do well here but I don't expect him to be probowl bound. If he is, serve up this post and I will gladly eat my crow :D Bannan will never make the Pro Bowl because the job he will be tasked with is not one that gets people pub. Case in point would be guys like Williams and Vince Wilfork. They've long been regarded as the elite NTs in the game and between them they have 20 NFL seasons and only 5 Pro Bowls.

[Lonestar]

What do you think GM's do these days? The days of the GM being the face of the franchise and head coach simply doing the coaching are fading fast. Sure there are a couple teams that still go by the old model, but how successful are they? San Diego has arguably been the most talented team in the league over the last 4 years, yet they've repeatedly choked in the playoffs with two vastly different coaches. Dallas? A poor man's San Diego. Oakland? Yeah, that's the way to build a winning team.

Of the teams who run their front office like you describe, only Baltimore could be considered a success. The Dolphins had a good year until Parcells and then a not so good one, so the jury is still out on them.

The working relationship that McDaniels and Xanders have is basically the same as what Belichick/Pioli and Shanahan/Sundquist had.

That's not what I said. I said he was the guy doing all the dirty work so guys like Pryce, Suggs and Ngata could penetrate 1 gaps and get after the quarterback. He split time in that role with Dwan Edwards (who we also tried to sign).

Bannan will never make the Pro Bowl because the job he will be tasked with is not one that gets people pub. Case in point would be guys like Williams and Vince Wilfork. They've long been regarded as the elite NTs in the game and between them they have 20 NFL seasons and only 5 Pro Bowls.

I'm not so sure I would say that Ted was anything but a gofer, good man that was hired to get OJT as a GM. Certainly not a strong GM and we all know that mikey ran the show.

I believe that Josh has overall control but has to get input from Xman and Joe, as to the final say in what happens.

The doom issue being a prime example someone behind the scenes is calling the shots on this and allowing Josh to be the good guy.

In every conversation/presser I have heard Josh says that Xman and the agents are working on the contract.



Let the doubters prove other wise.

[Softskull]

Again.. you can say that "sacks aren't the end all" .. but thats what gets you paid. Why does it get you paid? Because if you are getting sacks, you are also causing pressure when you DON'T get the sacks. I would bet a hefty sum, that the guys that normally get the most sacks, are those that get the most pressure. If they aren't giving the most pressure.. they MOST CERTAINLY are getting the most attention from the OL, because they DO cause sacks. THus, the offense has to be concerned about the players that get sacks and not about the guy that might cause 'pressure.'

So if we are talking about Doom getting a new contract, we aren't going to base that on this ridiculous theory that "pressure" is as important as the sacks. Its not.. most certainly not when you are talking about getting paid. ITs most certainly not when the offense has to keep an eye on the guy GETTING the sacks. Thats a nice attempt at a deflection, but its not even close to being a reality. Pressure is nice, but having the ability to actually GET the sack is so much more important in a passing league like the NFL... hence the big pay-checks to those that get the sacks.

Who gets paid more, those that sack, those that pressure, or those that don't sack and make tackles?

Give me your money Rav,

This is the top 20 list of most hits on QBs in 2009. No Broncos made the list.
.
19: A.Spencer, DAL; M.Kiwanuka, NYG
17: R.Edwards, MIN
14: A.Carter, WAS; M.Williams, HOU; A.Kampman, GB (in only nine games!)
13: A.Smith, HOU; D.Tapp, SEA; O.Umenyiora, NYG; W.Smith, NO
12: D.Ware, DAL; T.Cole, PHI; C.Matthews, GB; J.Allen, MIN; S.White, TB
11: K.Vanden Bosch, TEN; R.Mathis, IND; A.Brown, CHI; M.Lawson, SF

[LordTrychon]

Give me your money Rav,

This is the top 20 list of most hits on QBs in 2009. No Broncos made the list.
.
19: A.Spencer, DAL; M.Kiwanuka, NYG
17: R.Edwards, MIN
14: A.Carter, WAS; M.Williams, HOU; A.Kampman, GB (in only nine games!)
13: A.Smith, HOU; D.Tapp, SEA; O.Umenyiora, NYG; W.Smith, NO
12: D.Ware, DAL; T.Cole, PHI; C.Matthews, GB; J.Allen, MIN; S.White, TB
11: K.Vanden Bosch, TEN; R.Mathis, IND; A.Brown, CHI; M.Lawson, SF

Well, if you add in the sacks... I'm pretty sure Doom makes that list.

He had more sacks than nearly anyone on that list had 'hits'.

I guess sacks don't even count towards pressure now.

How far the sack has fallen. :(

[Softskull]

Well, if you add in the sacks... I'm pretty sure Doom makes that list.

He had more sacks than nearly anyone on that list had 'hits'.

I guess sacks don't even count towards pressure now.

How far the sack has fallen. :(

The only person that makes both the hit list and sack list is DWare. It's almost as if they are different roles, althought certainly with overlap. Most that are on the hit list have a top sack guy on their front line. We clearly have the sack guy, but dont seem to have a "pressure" guy to help out. Any guesses on who that will be this year? I'm still thinking it's Ayers.

[Softskull]

A great year for a sack 'artist' is 16 sacks. That's just one per game. If you want to think that one play per game is what the fuss is all about, more power to you.

The top pressure guy using hits (the only pressure stat I could find) was only 19, so good pressure is only on per game also. A top teir WR only catches 0.625 TDs per game. Are you going to pay a WR that kind of money for only 0.625 plays per game?

[Lonestar]

Doom has averaged about 11 sacks a year.

Since he is now a known quantity I suspect the OC will be schemeing agasiant him so any hopes of another 17 +year are slimmer than in the past.

Frankly I just can't pay a guy that does not dominate overall at the OLB $900,000.00 per sack.

I frankly do not believe you should put most of your cap money in justa few players REGARDLESS of the fan base wishes.

One player goes down and your screwed.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Tempus Fugit]

The top pressure guy using hits (the only pressure stat I could find) was only 19, so good pressure is only on per game also. A top teir WR only catches 0.625 TDs per game. Are you going to pay a WR that kind of money for only 0.625 plays per game?

Since I wouldn't be paying WRs by the TD any more than I'd be paying DEs/LBs by the sack, I don't really see where you're going with this. I'd pay both types of player by the overall impact.

For example, and ignoring pressures and hits for a moment: a guy might get 5 sacks, but have 1-on-1 blocking all season long while drawing no attention from the opponents when it came time to game planning. Another guy might get 5 sacks, but have double teams or chip blocks on almost every play while the offensive plan was built around stopping that player. Both are 5 sack players but, despite the logic being used by the 17>14 posters, there can be a significant difference in talent and impact.

[Softskull]

Since I wouldn't be paying WRs by the TD any more than I'd be paying DEs/LBs by the sack, I don't really see where you're going with this. I'd pay both types of player by the overall impact.

For example, and ignoring pressures and hits for a moment: a guy might get 5 sacks, but have 1-on-1 blocking all season long while drawing no attention from the opponents when it came time to game planning. Another guy might get 5 sacks, but have double teams or chip blocks on almost every play while the offensive plan was built around stopping that player. Both are 5 sack players but, despite the logic being used by the 17>14 posters, there can be a significant difference in talent and impact.

I think we're in agreement that judging any stat as "x per game" fails, either dogfish using sacks or you using pressure, but we have to use some benchmark. Since we're limited to just a few recorded statistics, sacks are as good an indicator as any since everything else (closing off the end, penetration, knowledge of system, etc) is subjective. I can’t remember every play of every game, but I suspect that Elvis was the Bronco getting the most double teams since last year we lacked additional playmakers in the front. For Elvis' position, he was top ten in forced fumbles, tackles and sacks. Seems like he's more than a one trick pony that some are making him out to be, and certainly worth more than the 3+million that he's in line for at the moment if we want to retain his services long term. If we picked up any quality players this offseason that help in the front seven, I suspect we’ll see much more from Doom.

[Tempus Fugit]

I think we're in agreement that judging any stat as "x per game" fails, either dogfish using sacks or you using pressure, but we have to use some benchmark. Since we're limited to just a few recorded statistics, sacks are as good an indicator as any since everything else (closing off the end, penetration, knowledge of system, etc) is subjective. I can’t remember every play of every game, but I suspect that Elvis was the Bronco getting the most double teams since last year we lacked additional playmakers in the front. For Elvis' position, he was top ten in forced fumbles, tackles and sacks. Seems like he's more than a one trick pony that some are making him out to be, and certainly worth more than the 3+million that he's in line for at the moment if we want to retain his services long term. If we picked up any quality players this offseason that help in the front seven, I suspect we’ll see much more from Doom.

No, they're not. That's the point behind what I've been saying, and it's reinforced by Belichick, Parcells and any number of other coaches.

Now, about a couple of the other things you mentioned:

Tackles isn't an honest stat. Teams keep them individually, and they score them differently.

Raw numbers don't demonstrated "one trick pony", because of everything involved in the game. It's not a situation like baseball, where the numbers can tell a huge part of the story. It's more like basketball, where a guy can put up a lot of great looking numbers and still not be a very good overall basketball player.

[Lonestar]

No, they're not. That's the point behind what I've been saying, and it's reinforced by Belichick, Parcells and any number of other coaches.

Now, about a couple of the other things you mentioned:

Tackles isn't an honest stat. Teams keep them individually, and they score them differently.

Raw numbers don't demonstrated "one trick pony", because of everything involved in the game. It's not a situation like baseball, where the numbers can tell a huge part of the story. It's more like basketball, where a guy can put up a lot of great looking numbers and still not be a very good overall basketball player.

not sure that it is the teams that count the tackles and other stats like they used (way back) to I know for a while Elias sports bureau was the source for stats with computers now days I think it is easier to keep.

I know that one of the reasons that Gradisher was not selected into the HOF at that point the teams were indeed counting the numbers and many voters thought his numbers were inflated by the team. Then Elias was hired by the NFL to be the impartial number crunchers and those are the official numbers.



I also know that the team can ask to have the numbers changed by the league with tape back up.

[Softskull]

No, they're not. That's the point behind what I've been saying, and it's reinforced by Belichick, Parcells and any number of other coaches.

Now, about a couple of the other things you mentioned:

Tackles isn't an honest stat. Teams keep them individually, and they score them differently.

Raw numbers don't demonstrated "one trick pony", because of everything involved in the game. It's not a situation like baseball, where the numbers can tell a huge part of the story. It's more like basketball, where a guy can put up a lot of great looking numbers and still not be a very good overall basketball player.

Fine, but there has to be some objective indicator of Elvis' value. You've discredited sacks and tackles. So what objective measure do you propose? You've stated that Elvis should get what the Broncos give him because of the lack of collective bargaining regardless of what others in his position earn. Others here have suggested his value is great than the 3Mil using subjective statistics and comparative analysis. You usually have a relatively solid argument, but Belichick’s opinion and a distrust of stat keepers is not being used by either party in Doom’s contract negotiations.

[dogfish]

Since I wouldn't be paying WRs by the TD any more than I'd be paying DEs/LBs by the sack, I don't really see where you're going with this. I'd pay both types of player by the overall impact.

For example, and ignoring pressures and hits for a moment: a guy might get 5 sacks, but have 1-on-1 blocking all season long while drawing no attention from the opponents when it came time to game planning. Another guy might get 5 sacks, but have double teams or chip blocks on almost every play while the offensive plan was built around stopping that player. Both are 5 sack players but, despite the logic being used by the 17>14 posters, there can be a significant difference in talent and impact.

yep-- anytime some believes 17 is greater than 14, the rest of their "logic" is immediately out the window!

















:noidea:

[LordTrychon]

yep-- anytime some believes 17 is greater than 14, the rest of their "logic" is immediately out the window!


:noidea:

Obviously you missed his point, Dogfish...

Clearly, Dumervil's numbers are inflated because the opposing offenses were busier double teaming all of our OTHER dangerous pass rushers.

Not only does this explain Elvis' inflated stats... but it also explains why everyone else struggles to get good stats like his.

Clearly Dumervil is the WORST pass rusher on the team, and this is why he is allowed near the QB so much by the other teams.

[Northman]

Obviously you missed his point, Dogfish...

Clearly, Dumervil's numbers are inflated because the opposing offenses were busier double teaming all of our OTHER dangerous pass rushers.

Not only does this explain Elvis' inflated stats... but it also explains why everyone else struggles to get good stats like his.

Clearly Dumervil is the WORST pass rusher on the team, and this is why he is allowed near the QB so much by the other teams.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[T.K.O.]

with a name like "Elvis" you've got to be good !:2thumbs:

[Ravage!!!]

with a name like "Elvis" you've got to be good !:2thumbs:

Grbac proved that!

[TXBRONC]

Obviously you missed his point, Dogfish...

Clearly, Dumervil's numbers are inflated because the opposing offenses were busier double teaming all of our OTHER dangerous pass rushers.

Not only does this explain Elvis' inflated stats... but it also explains why everyone else struggles to get good stats like his.

Clearly Dumervil is the WORST pass rusher on the team, and this is why he is allowed near the QB so much by the other teams.

Obviously. :tsk:

[dogfish]

Obviously you missed his point, Dogfish...

Clearly, Dumervil's numbers are inflated because the opposing offenses were busier double teaming all of our OTHER dangerous pass rushers.

Not only does this explain Elvis' inflated stats... but it also explains why everyone else struggles to get good stats like his.

Clearly Dumervil is the WORST pass rusher on the team, and this is why he is allowed near the QB so much by the other teams.

oh. . .

i get it. . .

well, that makes at least as much sense as a lot of the other garbage that's been floated on this topic. . . .

[rcsodak]

And he may not even show up for training camp THIS SEASON. Who gives a shit if we have him under contract if he refuses to play because the front office has been promising something that apparently they never intended to fulfil....even though he's been the perfect example of a professional.

Who knows....he could have thrown a temper tantrum like those other guys, got traded and got his money. Instead, he played the good, team guy and he's going to be stuck with a contract that doesn't pay him for the level of play he achieved last season. Either way...the Broncos look like a bunch of cheap, bold face liars. I'm so proud.

I'd be PISSED if I had to relent to a 500% pay raise!!!!!! :mad:

[rcsodak]

Yea, got to teach that guy Doom a lesson. He's been nothing but cooperative throughout the transistion and has done all the right things. If Denver doesnt want to pay Doom and he can/or wants to go elsewhere we better hope that McD has the class to let him do so.

So list out the teams that are paying the big multi-yr/big bucks contracts this year.

And as Jr said, there will be a TON of players hitting the market next year, as in, holy cow number!

Doom will get his contract AFTER the rooks get contracts, and AFTER the team has an idea what the CBA situation will be in future years.

This is nothing more than the media ruffling feathers, and agents whispering BS in their players' ears.

[LordTrychon]

I'd be PISSED if I had to relent to a 500% pay raise!!!!!! :mad:

I'd bet you would.

Especially when everyone else who had similar abilities AND results got raises worth about 300% more (and that's being gracious)... and with a large portion up front (about 1000% more than you're getting at all)... and with at least some knowledge that you're likely to be able to stay in one city for more than the 6 months.

[rcsodak]

I don't care if it's a saying....don't use it in my direction or for anyone else here's either. We all have lives.

There are ways to treat your employees. You don't shit on them and expect for them to hang around.....and don't tell me about replacing him, because we've been trying to do that since the days of Bertand Berry. No talent teams don't win Super Bowls even if they are a great locker room. That feel good doesn't help if you don't have talent on the field.

As a good manager, and since you've done it for 30 years you should know, don't tell employees a bullshit story that you are going to take care of them and do everything in your power to do the exact opposite. Not only will you lose that employee, but that kind of cancer breeds. McD will lose his locker room if guys see that no matter how they go about it, they will either be traded or in the same situation that caused the rift in the first place and leave at the end of the contract. Either way, Denver is no longer a destination, it's a pit stop.

LMAO!!!!

I almost spewed Coke out my nose when you listed Berry and talent in successive sentences. Just promise me you won't list Heyward, next! :laugh:

And to repeat!

NO TEAMS are jumping to pay players multi-yr/big buck contracts right now!

You just don't do that before you have your rooks signed, and SOME semblance of what the future has in store.

Good grief.


Not rocket science.

[rcsodak]

But that's just it, girlfriend... As long as we continue to be the New England Broncos, or at least try to play the part, we will continue to bleed talent for the "good of the team" and therefore we'll bleed fan favorites and our best players until we're no longer competitive. Guys like JR can say what they want about the way McDaniels is managing the franchise (make no mistake, he's the one calling the shots, not Xanders) because he's a Bellichick worshiper, but the fact is, the Patriots are on the downslide and there's nobody to blame but themselves.

How many players from their Championship teams are still there? How many, other than Brady, were rewarded with proper compensation for their play? Seymour? Nope, traded. Samuels? Nope allowed to leave via FA. Vrabel? Nope, traded. Green? Nope, allowed to leave. Branch? Traded. Mankins? Nope, tendered and threatening a holdout, TOM BRADY??? in the last year of his contract and so happy about his contract situation, that he's spending all of his time that's not mandatory in California. Should I go on?

In short, the Bellichick/Patriot way of using up your talented players, alienating them when it's time to pay up, and kicking them to the curb is failing and the league is taking notice.

McDaniels has brought a TEAM mentality to Denver which is GOOD. Unfortunately, he's also brought the NO PLAYER IS BIGGER THAN the team and that includes their paycheck and so we will chase off all of our high priced talent like Doom and Champ in hopes to replace them with cheaper players (which is possible, but highly unlikely).

I just hope we exercise a little bit of common sense before we finally alienate a guy we can't replace (like Clady) just so we can rub our nickels together. It's not like Bowlen is (or should be anyway) hurting for cash. We as fans have done nothing but sell out EVERY HOME GAME SINCE HE'S OWNED THE TEAM!

Quit being a cheapskate, Pat. Pay our talent and keep them in DENVER WHERE THEY BELONG!

Seymour? Nope, traded.
Samuels? Nope allowed to leave via FA.
Vrabel? Nope, traded.
Green? Nope, allowed to leave.
Branch? Traded.
Mankins?

Hmmm. What I see is getting value for older players. And you see a problem with that? What? Are you saying a team should just stick with their players until they either breakdown, or retire? Not getting anything in return?

Wow. I guess you'd rather have the oldest roster in the entire league, then.

And I believe you'll be eating your words if you think the Pats are done. JMHO.

[TXBRONC]

LMAO!!!!

I almost spewed Coke out my nose when you listed Berry and talent in successive sentences. Just promise me you won't list Heyward, next! :laugh:

And to repeat!

NO TEAMS are jumping to pay players multi-yr/big buck contracts right now!

You just don't do that before you have your rooks signed, and SOME semblance of what the future has in store.

Good grief.


Not rocket science.

NO TEAMS? You might want to rethink that. :coffee:

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/news/story?id=4969071


The contract is worth $91.5 million with $42 million guaranteed. Peppers will make $40.5 million over the first three years. The number could increase if he makes the Pro Bowl, records a certain number of sacks or is defensive player of the year.

[rcsodak]

2009-

Elvis Dumervil: 17 Sacks, 41 Tackles, 3 PD, 4 FF (16 games)
DeMarcus Ware: 11 Sacks, 45 Tackles, 6 PD, 5 FF (16 games)
Dwight Freeney: 13.5 Sacks, 19 Tackles, 1 PD, 1 FF (14 Games)
Terrell Suggs: 4.5 Sacks, 44 Tackles, 5 PD, 1 FF (13 Games)

Looks like he is right up there to me. And aside from Suggs neither Ware
or Freeney have had to change positions, schemes, or DC's as much as
Doom has. And how, Doom will be on DC # what? 5 or 6? Yet the guy
doesnt bitch and goes about his business.


1st 4 years for each.



DeMarcus Ware:

53 Sacks, 145 Tackles, 13 PD, 18 FF

Doom:

43 Sacks, 106 Tackles, 8 PD, 10 FF

Freeney:

51 Sacks, 135 Tackles, 8 PD, 21 FF

Suggs:

40 Sacks, 71 Tackles, 16 PD, 12 FF


Considering all the crap that Doom has to endure here and without much help he is in the thick of it. So please spare me the "he is only 1/3 of a LB" crap. lol
Your 4yr stats shows 1 thing. He's a year behind the rest, except for suggs.
10sacks/30-40tackles is a good year.

So now show us some stats on runs against the left side....tackles for loss, etc.
We KNOW he can pass rush.

[rcsodak]

And of that list there's only a VERY few RFAs (three explicitly stated.) Most of those folks are UFAs. The big contention is with the RFAs (like Doom) because they can't just go to another team like UFAs so it's not quite the picture you're trying to paint.

lol

I'm not really sure WHAT his point was.

Re-signings or FA's?

At least you pointed out what it WASN'T. ;)

[rcsodak]

Like i said, its just the tip of the iceberg. And that list isnt even including all the draft choices that are being signed to long term contracts.

Maybe we came in on the middle of a conversation........


But what are you trying to prove?

1.Teams still have to pay their draft picks?
2. Players were lost/traded/re-signed?
3. Owners still have money?
4. Mosquito's in Minn have been known to rape Turkeys?

Am I close?

[rcsodak]

you said it yourself, everything's a risk and letting quality players go is risky to winning championships. Besides, my point was that players are indeed getting longer contracts despite what some are saying on here which was my initial point.

RFA's? Wrong.

[rcsodak]

Hey great job just fling numbers out there with no context.

In '06 (8.5 sacks) Dumervil was a rookie and only used as situational pass rusher.

In '08 (5.0 sacks) he had injured hand that bothered him for most of the year. But he still tied for the team lead bad hand and all.

Ware hurt his hand last year...missed a start...and yet, still had 11sacks/6PD/5FF.

[jhildebrand]

So now show us some stats on runs against the left side....tackles for loss, etc.
We KNOW he can pass rush.

He can only do what the coaching staff allows him to do. They asked him to rush the passer and he did it with huge success!

[rcsodak]

funny how YOU use the first year in a new system as an excuse for ortons lackluster play

yet disregard dooms first year in a totaly new position:coffee:

So, just to be clear here....


YOU are saying, that Doom's position, on defense, is AS DIFFICULT to learn, as the QB?!?!?

Just wanting you to define your suggestive post.

[Tned]

Your 4yr stats shows 1 thing. He's a year behind the rest, except for suggs.
10sacks/30-40tackles is a good year.

So now show us some stats on runs against the left side....tackles for loss, etc.
We KNOW he can pass rush.


lol

I'm not really sure WHAT his point was.

Re-signings or FA's?

At least you pointed out what it WASN'T. ;)


Maybe we came in on the middle of a conversation........


But what are you trying to prove?

1.Teams still have to pay their draft picks?
2. Players were lost/traded/re-signed?
3. Owners still have money?
4. Mosquito's in Minn have been known to rape Turkeys?

Am I close?


RFA's? Wrong.


Ware hurt his hand last year...missed a start...and yet, still had 11sacks/6PD/5FF.


So, just to be clear here....


YOU are saying, that Doom's position, on defense, is AS DIFFICULT to learn, as the QB?!?!?

Just wanting you to define your suggestive post.


LMAO!!!!

I almost spewed Coke out my nose when you listed Berry and talent in successive sentences. Just promise me you won't list Heyward, next! :laugh:

And to repeat!

NO TEAMS are jumping to pay players multi-yr/big buck contracts right now!

You just don't do that before you have your rooks signed, and SOME semblance of what the future has in store.

Good grief.


Not rocket science.


Seymour? Nope, traded.
Samuels? Nope allowed to leave via FA.
Vrabel? Nope, traded.
Green? Nope, allowed to leave.
Branch? Traded.
Mankins?

Hmmm. What I see is getting value for older players. And you see a problem with that? What? Are you saying a team should just stick with their players until they either breakdown, or retire? Not getting anything in return?

Wow. I guess you'd rather have the oldest roster in the entire league, then.

And I believe you'll be eating your words if you think the Pats are done. JMHO.

I suggest either checking and replying to threads more often, or learning how to use the multi-quote button http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif.

It's not good netiquette to flood a thread with so many responses in a row, when they could all be in a single post.

[jhildebrand]

So, just to be clear here....


YOU are saying, that Doom's position, on defense, is AS DIFFICULT to learn, as the QB?!?!?

Just wanting you to define your suggestive post.

Why play games and skirt the issue? :confused: Why not address the post head on? :confused:

I find it funny how the offense is always given the "new system, new players, new coaches" excuse but it never applies to the Defense. :lol:

While playing on the D might not be on par with automatic check downs, dump offs, and bubble screens it isn't simply go get em either.

[TXBRONC]

Why play games and skirt the issue? :confused: Why not address the post head on? :confused:

I find it funny how the offense is always given the "new system, new players, new coaches" excuse but it never applies to the Defense. :lol:

While playing on the D might not be on par with automatic check downs, dump offs, and bubble screens it isn't simply go get em either.

Ah Dumervil was only trying to learn a new position no biggie.

[Ravage!!!]

I suggest either checking and replying to threads more often, or learning how to use the multi-quote button http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif.

It's not good netiquette to flood a thread with so many responses in a row, when they could all be in a single post.

Thats his MO. Show up late, quote and question things that have been answered and replied to three-or-four times already without looking ahead through the thread, first.

[Lonestar]

Why play games and skirt the issue? :confused: Why not address the post head on? :confused:

I find it funny how the offense is always given the "new system, new players, new coaches" excuse but it never applies to the Defense. :lol:

While playing on the D might not be on par with automatic check downs, dump offs, and bubble screens it isn't simply go get em either.

If doom had indeed tried to do something OTHER than hand in the dirt rush the passer perhaps that could be true. But form where I sat he was a 4th DL guy while on the field. He did not drop back into coverage and the only other tackler he got were while in that spread DE slot. IIRC he got a total of 41 tackles take the 17 sacks from that and that is 24 actual RB or QB tackles beyond the LOS stops. Nothing to write home about.
IMHO.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[jhildebrand]

He did not drop back into coverage

I suppose the pass defensed stat he is carrying is just an error right :lol:



and the only other tackler he got were while in that spread DE slot. IIRC he got a total of 41 tackles take the 17 sacks from that and that is 24 actual RB or QB tackles beyond the LOS stops. Nothing to write home about.
IMHO.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Again, none of this speaks to the point I made. Who are we to critique Dumervil for his performance and so called inabilities when he was only asked to do ONE thing by the coaches and that was to rush the passer! He did that and continued to do that despite several double teams.

You see Jrwiz, you are talking out of both sides of your face here. On several occasions I have seen you, and others, stand up for Orton and proclaim he can throw the deep ball and do it well BUT his detractors can't claim he couldn't because the coaching staff didn't ask him nor want him to.

So why then, when it comes to Dumervil, does that argument no longer apply? :confused:

[arapaho2]

So, just to be clear here....


YOU are saying, that Doom's position, on defense, is AS DIFFICULT to learn, as the QB?!?!?

Just wanting you to define your suggestive post.



so ortons 5th season and coming into a spread offense much like the one he ran in purdue..his 5th year playing the position of qb..four years as a starter...is so drasticaly harder than a

4-3 de...who has played de all his career....suddenly asked to play in a totaly differant position...in a totaly differant scheme?

and so orton gets the excuse of " its a new offense" but doom in a new position...in a new defensive scheme...which he never played before...is excempt?

now that we cleared up your line of thinking let me say...



:lol:





:lol:


:lol:



:lol:



:lol:



:lol:

[T.K.O.]

I suppose the pass defensed stat he is carrying is just an error right :lol:



Again, none of this speaks to the point I made. Who are we to critique Dumervil for his performance and so called inabilities when he was only asked to do ONE thing by the coaches and that was to rush the passer! He did that and continued to do that despite several double teams.

You see Jrwiz, you are talking out of both sides of your face here. On several occasions I have seen you, and others, stand up for Orton and proclaim he can throw the deep ball and do it well BUT his detractors can't claim he couldn't because the coaching staff didn't ask him nor want him to.

So why then, when it comes to Dumervil, does that argument no longer apply? :confused:

fair rebuttle and logical question...however ....Orton is not asking for nor would he get 12.5 mil a year;)
i think doom is worth 6-8 mil a year ,and hopefully the 2 sides can find common ground in that ballpark:salute:

[TXBRONC]

I suppose the pass defensed stat he is carrying is just an error right :lol:



Again, none of this speaks to the point I made. Who are we to critique Dumervil for his performance and so called inabilities when he was only asked to do ONE thing by the coaches and that was to rush the passer! He did that and continued to do that despite several double teams.

You see Jrwiz, you are talking out of both sides of your face here. On several occasions I have seen you, and others, stand up for Orton and proclaim he can throw the deep ball and do it well BUT his detractors can't claim he couldn't because the coaching staff didn't ask him nor want him to.

So why then, when it comes to Dumervil, does that argument no longer apply? :confused:

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't blocked passes at the line of scrimage or behind it also count as pass defended? If I'm right then Ware having six passes defended doesn't necessarily mean he was out in coverage.

[arapaho2]

fair rebuttle and logical question...however ....Orton is not asking for nor would he get 12.5 mil a year;)
i think doom is worth 6-8 mil a year ,and hopefully the 2 sides can find common ground in that ballpark:salute:


big differance...if they were Free agents....orton could ask every team in the league for top money...with every one laughing him out of the building

doom would be signed to a top contract day one

theres also a thing called market value...doom is considered one of the best pass rushers in the game...his market value is much higher than a average qbs

[T.K.O.]

big differance...if they were Free agents....orton could ask every team in the league for top money...with every one laughing him out of the building

doom would be signed to a top contract day one

theres also a thing called market value...doom is considered one of the best pass rushers in the game...his market value is much higher than a average qbs

i know that.......
i was'nt comparing the two on talent level.
i was saying that the arguement that orton is a "one trick pony" (capt. bubble screen and super safe qb) is why no one thinks he is worth big bucks or an extension.
and there are some who feel elvis is limited in his role as well.
i think both players are better than many percieve them to be here.

[Lonestar]

I suppose the pass defensed stat he is carrying is just an error right :lol:



Again, none of this speaks to the point I made. Who are we to critique Dumervil for his performance and so called inabilities when he was only asked to do ONE thing by the coaches and that was to rush the passer! He did that and continued to do that despite several double teams.

You see Jrwiz, you are talking out of both sides of your face here. On several occasions I have seen you, and others, stand up for Orton and proclaim he can throw the deep ball and do it well BUT his detractors can't claim he couldn't because the coaching staff didn't ask him nor want him to.

So why then, when it comes to Dumervil, does that argument no longer apply? :confused:


IIRC Pass defensed are not just knocking them out of the receivers hands or batting them away beyond the LOS, tipped passed behind the LOS also counts. I could be wrong on that but I'm pretty sure he never dropped back in coverage and pulled a Champ move on someone.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

How do you know that is all that Nolan, or Josh wanted?

Did you see a directive that no one else saw.

not sure that the correlation between what Orton did and doom did is relevant but if you what to go into the area I guess no one can stop you from making WAG's about it.

If the long balls were not called and this is a direct call from the OC or Josh to the QB no one really knows if they were or were not.

Now the call into the MLB from the DC is a play that may or may not have dooms number on it. and unless you KNOW that is all they ask from him it is nothing but a WAG wild ass guess.


I realize that OLB is a different world than what he has played before and there is only so much one can learn about it in a short time frame.

I have no issue with him learning it and then getting played for his productivity.

I also suspect that the coaches based off what they saw or DID NOT see last year are hesitant to give him top 5 OLB money for not being able to do more than knuckle dragging rush the passer.

I'M ALSO GUESSING THAT, If it were just as simple as a few of you want to make it they would have reached an agreement already.

[Lonestar]

I suggest either checking and replying to threads more often, or learning how to use the multi-quote button http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif.

It's not good netiquette to flood a thread with so many responses in a row, when they could all be in a single post.

Is there a coc rule that this has to be done?

I also like to answer one post at a time as I read them, so I do not bias myself to others thoughts and posts.

Not sure why that would be an issue.

[jhildebrand]

fair rebuttle and logical question...however ....Orton is not asking for nor would he get 12.5 mil a year;)
i think doom is worth 6-8 mil a year ,and hopefully the 2 sides can find common ground in that ballpark:salute:

I hear you TKO. However, let me ask you this, name me one category that Orton led statistically all season long including the finish? :confused:

Name me one thing Orton did that was stellar and remained stellar throughout the entire season.

You see, Dumervil did his job and he did it all season long.

[Lonestar]

I hear you TKO. However, let me ask you this, name me one category that Orton led statistically all season long including the finish? :confused:

Name me one thing Orton did that was stellar and remained stellar throughout the entire season.

You see, Dumervil did his job and he did it all season long.


no all he did was rush the passer JUST one part of three parts to his "JOB description".

[LordTrychon]

Is there a coc rule that this has to be done?

I also like to answer one post at a time as I read them, so I do not bias myself to others thoughts and posts.

Not sure why that would be an issue.

He qualified it. He didn't say it was a rule... he said it was bad etiquette. Poor manners. Rude.

Flooding a thread with responses can also be considered trollish behavior if done over the top.

In general, there is nothing wrong against reading and responding to individual posts... but responding to 10 in a row... many of them SEVERAL pages back is distracting and, well... kinda rude. He suggested staying on top of the topic if it was so important to respond to everything posted in it.

Otherwise, a thread is kind of like a conversation... the topic can vary and move on... people's positions may have even changed over time in a thread... so picking out arguments from the beginning of a discussion and singling them out to nitpick is just sort of out of order.

He didn't say it was a rules violation.

Another more 'proper' way to handle it would be to read through the whole thread (or at least the past several pages) and find out what the current discussion and arguments are... and debate those. The current arguments. Not the stuff that's been moved on from since.

*shrug*

[LordTrychon]

no all he did was rush the passer JUST one part of three parts to his "JOB description".

Unless of course... he's asked to rush the passer 90% of the time... in which case, he's doing 90% of his job EXTREMELY well.

[T.K.O.]

I hear you TKO. However, let me ask you this, name me one category that Orton led statistically all season long including the finish? :confused:

Name me one thing Orton did that was stellar and remained stellar throughout the entire season.

You see, Dumervil did his job and he did it all season long.

he did'nt "CRUSH" any record books by any stretch:laugh:
but he was pretty consistant .i am not the type to go back and do painstaking research.but as a long time fan of the team and the game,what i did see was a guy who for the most part did'nt single handedly win or lose many games.
meaning he played slightly better than most expected (21 td's,12 ints 3800+ yds) and probably would have gotten us to the playoffs if not for his ankle sprain and the fact that we had pretty much the worst run D in the game for the final few weeks.
again i am NOT putting the 8-8 season on the defense,but that was definately a FACTOR in our not making the playoffs....as was the offense,special teams and coaching.
it is a team sport...they won together and they lost together....in equal amounts:mad::laugh:

[Lonestar]

He qualified it. He didn't say it was a rule... he said it was bad etiquette. Poor manners. Rude.

Flooding a thread with responses can also be considered trollish behavior if done over the top.

In general, there is nothing wrong against reading and responding to individual posts... but responding to 10 in a row... many of them SEVERAL pages back is distracting and, well... kinda rude. He suggested staying on top of the topic if it was so important to respond to everything posted in it.

Otherwise, a thread is kind of like a conversation... the topic can vary and move on... people's positions may have even changed over time in a thread... so picking out arguments from the beginning of a discussion and singling them out to nitpick is just sort of out of order.

He didn't say it was a rules violation.

Another more 'proper' way to handle it would be to read through the whole thread (or at least the past several pages) and find out what the current discussion and arguments are... and debate those. The current arguments. Not the stuff that's been moved on from since.

*shrug*


I know what he said.

just wanted a clarification form the horses mouth.

While you find it rude I do not I like to take the posts one at a time.

as for a person changing his mind in the same thread well that is hilarious.

some posters do not have the luxury of being on the forum all the time. and have to respond in bursts like RC has done.

SOme folks have real jobs that do not allow them to be "playing around" on a web site other than work related.:salute:

[Lonestar]

Unless of course... he's asked to rush the passer 90% of the time... in which case, he's doing 90% of his job EXTREMELY well.
which I would not have an issues with but if the Defense can't stop a running gmae then he is on the bench because he is a pass rusher only.

and frankly that was our D last year even with him being on the field, , in fact they may have been running right at him.

[jhildebrand]

which I would not have an issues with but if the Defense can't stop a running gmae then he is on the bench because he is a pass rusher only.

and frankly that was our D last year even with him being on the field, , in fact they may have been running right at him.

I think your mind is made up, Jrwiz. I think you are seeing things you want to see at any and all costs.

Afterall, you are playing games here. We both know you decried the lack of long ball from Orton complaints, as I pointed out earlier, with the defense that he wasn't asked to do it. Now you want to use the tired rebuttal: "how do you know what the coaches wanted?"

Its pretty simple to be honest with you. Dumervil was asked to be a pass rusher and a pass rusher only. How do I know that? Articles, Interviews, and general football acumen! You see, when it is an obvious running down, Dumervil was often not on the field or was lined up differently. Now I am not saying I know the guy can tackle and cover however, until the coaches ask him to do it, I wont pretend to know that he cant!

[TXBRONC]

Unless of course... he's asked to rush the passer 90% of the time... in which case, he's doing 90% of his job EXTREMELY well.

Yep, and there's a two-fold solid reason for it.

1.) We didn't have anyone else that was going pick up the slack.

2.) We didn't need him out in coverage we had other players that could cover allowing him to do what he does best.

[TimTebow15MVP]

big differance...if they were Free agents....orton could ask every team in the league for top money...with every one laughing him out of the building

doom would be signed to a top contract day one

theres also a thing called market value...doom is considered one of the best pass rushers in the game...his market value is much higher than a average qbs

thats funny though because dooms was on tendered at a 1st round pick and any team in the league would have been able to have him. he didnt get a single offer from anybody...... i dont know what dooms market is like because well he hasnt had a market.... If dooms was all world somebody woulda gave up there 1st round pick for dooms as minny did for allen.....dooms problem is he is one dementional and horrible at playing the run so its hard to give him a max deal hes asking for. hes a great pass rusher but hes not a every down guy. and thats what the problem is right now

[Tned]

thats funny though because dooms was on tendered at a 1st round pick and any team in the league would have been able to have him. he didnt get a single offer from anybody...... i dont know what dooms market is like because well he hasnt had a market.... If dooms was all world somebody woulda gave up there 1st round pick for dooms as minny did for allen.....dooms problem is he is one dementional and horrible at playing the run so its hard to give him a max deal hes asking for. hes a great pass rusher but hes not a every down guy. and thats what the problem is right now

1st and 3rd tender. So, anyone trading for him would have had to give up a 1st and 3rd and sign him to a big, long term contract (or would have just wasted their 1st and 3rd).

I don't think any of the guys around the league with 1st and 3rd round tenders were given offers from other clubs, and I'm not even sure if any of the first round tendered RFA's were given offers. This was not the year to be an RFA. To much uncertainty for the NFL clubs with the CBA uncertainty.

[dogfish]

i can't remember which doom thread got into the suggs comparison, so i'm just going to post this here. . .


Suggs defends skipping OTAs
Posted by Michael David Smith on June 30, 2010 6:51 AM ET

Ravens outside linebacker Terrell Suggs raised eyebrows by skipping organized team activities, with some observers questioning whether he's no longer committed to staying in shape after signing a huge contract extension last year.

But Suggs says he stands by his decision.

"As far as the OTAs thing goes, a lot of guys get hurt," Suggs said, per Dan Kolko of MASNsports.com. "I don't think a lot of guys would like to take that risk. It's OTAs, we're not winning any games or any Super Bowls in OTAs, so I'd rather just stick to my training and be in top shape come training camp."

Suggs showed up to training camp out of shape last year and ended the season with a career-low 4.5 sacks. He says this year he's working out on his own and fitness won't be an issue.

"Some guys need to be under the supervision of the coaches and the strength coaches and working out with the team, but some guys just don't need that," Suggs said. "Some guys, it's better for them to work individually with a trainer. I've always worked out with a trainer, and it's worked out thus far for me pretty good. But some guys do feel as though they work better with the team, within the group."

http://football.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=football&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.profootballtalk.com%2Frumormil l.htm
_______________________________

that any broncos fan could defend this guy as being worth more than dumervil just boggles my mind. . . .

[Lonestar]

I think your mind is made up, Jrwiz. I think you are seeing things you want to see at any and all costs.

Afterall, you are playing games here. We both know you decried the lack of long ball from Orton complaints, as I pointed out earlier, with the defense that he wasn't asked to do it. Now you want to use the tired rebuttal: "how do you know what the coaches wanted?"

Its pretty simple to be honest with you. Dumervil was asked to be a pass rusher and a pass rusher only. How do I know that? Articles, Interviews, and general football acumen! You see, when it is an obvious running down, Dumervil was often not on the field or was lined up differently. Now I am not saying I know the guy can tackle and cover however, until the coaches ask him to do it, I wont pretend to know that he cant!

So your convinced that he can do the rest iof the job that he picked it all up and is good at it and the coaches decided not to "waste" him on anything else.Only asked him to pass rush.

Well pardner if you really believe that, I have a lot of beachfront land for sale in El Paso.

Which ocean view do you want Gulf of Mexico or Pacific?

If he was more than a one trick pony they would have signed him in a heart beat. But so far they seem to be off a bunch of money in their negoiations.

As far as going deep it takes more than a QB with a big arm to complete deep passes. Does Orton have enough arm? Frankly I could care less it is way down my wish list for making this a winning team.

Without decent blocking, both for Running and pass protect no one would have had the time needed to develop them.

You also need the time for WR or TE to make moves or out run who is covering them.

Frankly we did not have those recievers either

For the most part they were unable to run the routs they were supposed to as a TEAM of recivers to get each other open.

So did KO get the chance to throw deep? Or can he throw it. Sounds like those plays are back into the scheme this spring.

I guess we will see if they make it through TC when the hitting starts for real.

BTW if doom has anything else in his resume that in itself helps to confuse the OC into wondering what he is going to do.

But every play I saw him on the field for was hand in the dirt. Not once did I see a snap while he was standing up pretending to be a 3-4 OLB. Not once in all the snaps I got to see.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[TXBRONC]

I think your mind is made up, Jrwiz. I think you are seeing things you want to see at any and all costs.

Afterall, you are playing games here. We both know you decried the lack of long ball from Orton complaints, as I pointed out earlier, with the defense that he wasn't asked to do it. Now you want to use the tired rebuttal: "how do you know what the coaches wanted?"

Its pretty simple to be honest with you. Dumervil was asked to be a pass rusher and a pass rusher only. How do I know that? Articles, Interviews, and general football acumen! You see, when it is an obvious running down, Dumervil was often not on the field or was lined up differently. Now I am not saying I know the guy can tackle and cover however, until the coaches ask him to do it, I wont pretend to know that he cant!

It's called trying to hold opposite sides of the same argument.

[LordTrychon]

I know what he said.

just wanted a clarification form the horses mouth.

While you find it rude I do not I like to take the posts one at a time.

That's fine. Your call. I am not personally bothered by eating with my mouth full, but I know others are... so I generally don't. Whatever though.


as for a person changing his mind in the same thread well that is hilarious.


And I'm not one bit surprised you would have a hard time understanding that.



some posters do not have the luxury of being on the forum all the time. and have to respond in bursts like RC has done.

SOme folks have real jobs that do not allow them to be "playing around" on a web site other than work related.:salute:


AAaaaand... that little dig is particular funny coming from you. lmao.

[TXBRONC]

i can't remember which doom thread got into the suggs comparison, so i'm just going to post this here. . .


Suggs defends skipping OTAs
Posted by Michael David Smith on June 30, 2010 6:51 AM ET

Ravens outside linebacker Terrell Suggs raised eyebrows by skipping organized team activities, with some observers questioning whether he's no longer committed to staying in shape after signing a huge contract extension last year.

But Suggs says he stands by his decision.

"As far as the OTAs thing goes, a lot of guys get hurt," Suggs said, per Dan Kolko of MASNsports.com. "I don't think a lot of guys would like to take that risk. It's OTAs, we're not winning any games or any Super Bowls in OTAs, so I'd rather just stick to my training and be in top shape come training camp."

Suggs showed up to training camp out of shape last year and ended the season with a career-low 4.5 sacks. He says this year he's working out on his own and fitness won't be an issue.

"Some guys need to be under the supervision of the coaches and the strength coaches and working out with the team, but some guys just don't need that," Suggs said. "Some guys, it's better for them to work individually with a trainer. I've always worked out with a trainer, and it's worked out thus far for me pretty good. But some guys do feel as though they work better with the team, within the group."

http://football.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=football&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.profootballtalk.com%2Frumormil l.htm
_______________________________

that any broncos fan could defend this guy as being worth more than dumervil just boggles my mind. . . .

But, but, but, Dog Suggs is a COMPLETE (out of shape) linebacker not some guy like Dumervil who busts his ass to stay in shape do what is asked of him. Dumervil has nothing on that fat boy. :tsk:

[T.K.O.]

no matter which side of the fence you are on....it is puzzling that no team was willing to give up a 1st and 3rd for the nfl sack leader:confused:
so i assume it has to do with either the state of the CBA or that elvis is not considered one of the best at his position?
i like the guy and really hope they work it out...but again it is strange:salute:

[Tned]

no matter which side of the fence you are on....it is puzzling that no team was willing to give up a 1st and 3rd for the nfl sack leader:confused:
so i assume it has to do with either the state of the CBA or that elvis is not considered one of the best at his position?
i like the guy and really hope they work it out...but again it is strange:salute:

How many other 1st/3rd round tenders were signed by other teams (teams that gave up the picks to sign the RFA) this year? How many 1st round tenders were picked up by new teams?

For that matter, how many 2nd round tenders were?

When you answer those three questions, and look at some of the names on the list (of 1st and 1st/3rd round tenders) then the answer to your question (CBA vs. Elvis deficiencies) is very clear.

[Lonestar]

That's fine. Your call. I am not personally bothered by eating with my mouth full, but I know others are... so I generally don't. Whatever though.



And I'm not one bit surprised you would have a hard time understanding that.




AAaaaand... that little dig is particular funny coming from you. lmao.

Actually lately I have spent very little time on the forum. Whenever I post from my blackberry via the mobile forum, it is because I'm taking a dump in the oval office, setting at a stop light or waiting for someone or an airplane.

I rarely get on for more than a few minutes other wise.

Now that I can really post what is on my mind and do not have to follow the mods guidelines of setting agony example. So I rapid fire one post at a time. Replying to all of these NOT on iggy, would have a few more on Iggy but the forum does not allow me to ignore some folks auto magically just have to remember that for the most part there posts are not worth my time any more.

As for changing the mind of someone that has professed to hate someone or that every other post is vindictive I think you can agree that their mind is not worth trying to convince as they already have it made up.

[Lonestar]

no matter which side of the fence you are on....it is puzzling that no team was willing to give up a 1st and 3rd for the nfl sack leader:confused:
so i assume it has to do with either the state of the CBA or that elvis is not considered one of the best at his position?
i like the guy and really hope they work it out...but again it is strange:salute:


I think it is a combination of the two, they do not see him as a top five guy money wise and the CBA leaves a lot of players in a similar situation.

[Tned]

Actually lately I have spent very little time on the forum. Whenever I post from my blackberry via the mobile forum, it is because I'm taking a dump in the oval office, setting at a stop light or waiting for someone or an airplane.

I rarely get on for more than a few minutes other wise.

Now that I can really post what is on my mind and do not have to follow the mods guidelines of setting agony example. So I rapid fire one post at a time. Replying to all of these NOT on iggy, would have a few more on Iggy but the forum does not allow me to ignore some folks auto magically just have to remember that for the most part there posts are not worth my time any more.

As for changing the mind of someone that has professed to hate someone or that every other post is vindictive I think you can agree that their mind is not worth trying to convince as they already have it made up.

Considering you are on BF, but in invisible mode, just about all day long, those must be some hellacious shits. Have you considered fiber? :confused:

Any chance we can move past your shits/craps/visits to the throne comments. I think it's clear you no longer like BF after you forced us to remove you as a mod. You are, as always, welcome, but you've made your point about how you no longer like this forum and feel it's full of haters, so let's move on and keep things on topic and off of your bathroom and iggy habits.

You are certainly free to make a shit thread in the lounge, or discuss your feelings about BF in general in a Town Hall thread, but let's keep it out of Broncos Talk for now on.

TIA for your help on this matter.

[Tned]

How many other 1st/3rd round tenders were signed by other teams (teams that gave up the picks to sign the RFA) this year? How many 1st round tenders were picked up by new teams?

For that matter, how many 2nd round tenders were?

When you answer those three questions, and look at some of the names on the list (of 1st and 1st/3rd round tenders) then the answer to your question (CBA vs. Elvis deficiencies) is very clear.

Anyone have a list of RFA's that moved to new teams, especially those with the higher tenders?

[Lonestar]

Considering you are on BF, but in invisible mode, just about all day long, those must be some hellacious shits. Have you considered fiber? :confused:

Any chance we can move past your shits/craps/visits to the throne comments. I think it's clear you no longer like BF after you forced us to remove you as a mod. You are, as always, welcome, but you've made your point about how you no longer like this forum and feel it's full of haters, so let's move on and keep things on topic and off of your bathroom and iggy habits.

You are certainly free to make a shit thread in the lounge, or discuss your feelings about BF in general in a Town Hall thread, but let's keep it out of Broncos Talk for now on.

TIA for your help on this matter.

Wow make one comment about taking a dump not elabrating on it just saying I spend very little time setting at a crt and you make it a capitol offense.

I realize that since your not exactly a firm supporter of the new regime and for the most part loved the old one, that sometimes Y'all can't see the forest from the trees.

Now that said I have been a firm supporter of this forum and Broncos from their inception.

Sorry that me being in stealh mode which I have been since almost day one is a problem for you.

Or is my discription of the forum hitting home.

Most of the positive guys post rarely now almost afraid to be made fun of.

So if my calling things a spade a spade is a probelm for you I'm sorry as hell about that.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[T.K.O.]

Anyone have a list of RFA's that moved to new teams, especially those with the higher tenders?

this has been my stance all along on the doom contract situation.
i have tried to argue the point of the lack of a cba to those who think the evil mcD is responsible for them not having a deal done with Elvis.
so i totally agree with you.
it is however possible that the reason the 2 sides have not come to terms is a combination of factors.they did get a deal done with kuper.
anyway i just wanted to point out that i have been saying all offseason that it's a bad time to be an rfa or the gm on the other side of the table.:salute:

[Northman]

lol

[Lonestar]

this has been my stance all along on the doom contract situation.
i have tried to argue the point of the lack of a cba to those who think the evil mcD is responsible for them not having a deal done with Elvis.
so i totally agree with you.
it is however possible that the reason the 2 sides have not come to terms is a combination of factors.they did get a deal done with kuper.
anyway i just wanted to point out that i have been saying all offseason that it's a bad time to be an rfa or the gm on the other side of the table.:salute:

Kuper was signed because unlike mankins and doom he was not looking for top money. He was realistic and a TEAM player.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Lonestar]

Not sure any one defended him here North IIRC brought his numbers up for comparisons sake.

He got lucky being an UFA a couple if years ago.

As for him getting a fat contact and getting lazy. One of the biggest teasons for incentive based contracts. Would you not say?
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Tned]

Wow make one comment about taking a dump not elabrating on it just saying I spend very little time setting at a crt and you make it a capitol offense.

I realize that since your not exactly a firm supporter of the new regime and for the most part loved the old one, that sometimes Y'all can't see the forest from the trees.

Now that said I have been a firm supporter of this forum and Broncos from their inception.

Sorry that me being in stealh mode which I have been since almost day one is a problem for you.

Or is my discription of the forum hitting home.

Most of the positive guys post rarely now almost afraid to be made fun of.

So if my calling things a spade a spade is a probelm for you I'm sorry as hell about that.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

If you have issues with the forum or how it's run, take it to Town Hall. Last warning.

[Tned]

this has been my stance all along on the doom contract situation.
i have tried to argue the point of the lack of a cba to those who think the evil mcD is responsible for them not having a deal done with Elvis.
so i totally agree with you.
it is however possible that the reason the 2 sides have not come to terms is a combination of factors.they did get a deal done with kuper.
anyway i just wanted to point out that i have been saying all offseason that it's a bad time to be an rfa or the gm on the other side of the table.:salute:

Resigning an RFA is a different issue. Several clubs have done that. I was responding to the assertioon that if he was a top x OLB, some team would have given up a 1st and 3rd. That just isn't the case this year. To my knowledge, no teams have given up draft picks for high tendered RFA's this year.

[GEM]

Wow make one comment about taking a dump not elabrating on it just saying I spend very little time setting at a crt and you make it a capitol offense.

I realize that since your not exactly a firm supporter of the new regime and for the most part loved the old one, that sometimes Y'all can't see the forest from the trees.

Now that said I have been a firm supporter of this forum and Broncos from their inception.

Sorry that me being in stealh mode which I have been since almost day one is a problem for you.

Or is my discription of the forum hitting home.

Most of the positive guys post rarely now almost afraid to be made fun of.

So if my calling things a spade a spade is a probelm for you I'm sorry as hell about that.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums


Aren't you the one who constantly reports things that shouldn't be in Broncos Discussions because they lower the value of the forum? Then you talk about taking a royal dump in the oval office. Quit being a hypocrite.

Your description of the forum only started once you were relieved of being a mod.

There's no problem in being in stealth mode, until you lie that you're never here. Therein lies the problem. When you say you are never here, but really you are basically all the time...yea that's a problem. Not because you are in stealth mode, but because you are trying to play other posters with a bunch of bs.

So if we're calling a spade a spade....start in your own back yard.

[nevcraw]

Kuper was signed because unlike mankins and doom he was not looking for top money. He was realistic and a TEAM player.Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

IGGY TEST ----------- IGGY TEST
So one is to deduce that now Doom is not a team player in ur eyes? nor Mankins? By team player do you mean settle below your value?
would you accept less than your perceived value in your line of work?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

1st and 3rd tender. So, anyone trading for him would have had to give up a 1st and 3rd and sign him to a big, long term contract (or would have just wasted their 1st and 3rd).

I don't think any of the guys around the league with 1st and 3rd round tenders were given offers from other clubs, and I'm not even sure if any of the first round tendered RFA's were given offers. This was not the year to be an RFA. To much uncertainty for the NFL clubs with the CBA uncertainty.

I'm pretty sure you're right, Tned. I also heard several times on Sirius and NFL Network that most teams were treating draft picks this year like gold because of the possible CBA implications along with this being one of the deepest drafts in a long time.

I mean when players like Donovan McNabb, Anquan Boldin, and Brandon Marshall can't even squeeze a 1st rounder out of teams in desperate need for their services, I'd have been surprised to see a team offer up a 1st rounder for anyone not named Peyton Manning or Tom Brady.

[jhildebrand]

I guess Tom Brady isn't a team player. Same system, same lineage, same ideals.

Tom Brady should be run out of NE. Oh wait....hobbled we all know his limitation is running.

[TXBRONC]

I guess Tom Brady isn't a team player. Same system, same lineage, same ideals.

Tom Brady should be run out of NE. Oh wait....hobbled we all know his limitation is running.

Absoultely because Tom Brady is only 2/3rds of a real quarterback.

[Stargazer]

Use Doom this year playing on his cheap contract, ship him for picks in the offseason.

[Lonestar]

Use Doom this year playing on his cheap contract, ship him for picks in the offseason.

If they get a new CBA then he is an UFA if the rules remain much the same. Then of course we can pay him top 5 money and TAG him for TWO more years.

The money sense idea in that is no guaranteed money or up front signing money. Only then could we trade him.

But then if they do not sign an new CBA he is still a RFA until he completes his 6th year much the same as ORTON is this year.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[claymore]

We dont have to worry about Orton needing alot of money.

[T.K.O.]

We dont have to worry about Orton needing alot of money.

just enough for booze and smokes....and an occasional dbl whopper w/ cheese:beer:

[Tned]

So I rapid fire one post at a time. Replying to all of these NOT on iggy, would have a few more on Iggy but the forum does not allow me to ignore some folks auto magically just have to remember that for the most part there posts are not worth my time any more.


Sorry you can't ignore me or the mods. Hadn't really heard a poster describe that as an undue burden before.

Trust me, I feel your pain, since as admin the forum does not allow me to put anyone on ignore. So, no matter how negative, caustic or troll like a poster is, I can't put them on 'iggy'.

[Bosco]

Sorry you can't ignore me or the mods. Firefox has VBulletin plug in that allows you to ignore anyone you wish. Just FYI.

[Lonestar]

Firefox has VBulletin plug in that allows you to ignore anyone you wish. Just FYI.
:salute::salute:
may have to give that a try.

I have been on the mobile site for about 70% of my posts/ time so nt sure if it would be good or NOT.

[Tned]

Firefox has VBulletin plug in that allows you to ignore anyone you wish. Just FYI.


:salute::salute:
may have to give that a try.

I have been on the mobile site for about 70% of my posts/ time so nt sure if it would be good or NOT.

Good tool for people to know about.

Obviously, it goes without saying that if a moderator posts instructions in a thread and you didn't see it because you used a third party tool to block their posts, it will not be an excuse for failing to follow their directives.

When one or more posters start to get out of control in a thread, moderators often post a get back on topic, or other direction.