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Magnificent Seven
06-04-2008, 02:26 PM
Troy Aikman (Photos) and John Elway (Photos) were two of the best quarterbacks to come out of the 1980s. Aikman was the first overall selection in 1989 and led the Cowboys to three Super Bowl titles. He was enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2006. Elway was the first overall selection of the Baltimore Colts in 1983, but played his entire career with the Broncos. Elway ended his career in style with back-to-back Super Bowl wins and was a member of the 2004 Hall of Fame class.

But who was the best?

NFL.com editors and football enthusiasts Adam Rank and Jim Reineking try to answer that question over instant messenger in NFL.com's "Instant Debate."

NFL Adam (3:52:29 PM): The knock against Troy Aikman has long been that he was surrounded by great talent, as if that makes him less of a quarterback. That actually had a negative impact on his numbers. Aikman never posted the passing numbers of some of the other great quarterbacks in NFL history because that was not the way his offense was designed. The Cowboys were methodical in their approach, and most of their drives culminated with Emmitt Smith busting through the line on a short touchdown run. But Aikman was at his best when his team needed him the most. Aikman posted a 104.3 passer rating during the playoffs (a number bested only by Bart Starr) from 1992-1995, when his team won three Super Bowls in four years. To me, he was the best of his generation.

Rhino (4:01:24 PM): The case against John Elway would be that it took a talented running back such as Terrell Davis to help No.7 finally get that elusive Super Bowl ring. The fact of the matter is, Elway was the winningest quarterback in NFL history until the greatest quarterback of all time (Brett Favre) finally eclipsed his career mark of 148 wins. And don't forget about those signature comeback drives. One of those fourth-quarter, come-from-behind victories has gone down as one of the most clutch performances in NFL history in what resulted in one of the greatest games ever played -- the 1986 AFC championship. Twelve years later, Elway's final game was a Super Bowl triumph, which is the way any quarterback would want to end his career. For putting up the numbers –- Elway is near the top in every major statistical category –- and for his moments of magic on the field when it mattered most, Elway should be considered as the best.

NFL Adam (4:11:23 PM): Once again, I feel that Aikman gets slighted because his teams always won. The Cowboys never trailed much during his career, and he doesn’t have that one signature moment that captures the imagination like "The Drive" or other great comebacks. When it comes to being a winner, none were bigger than Aikman. No other quarterback did more for his team than Aikman. He sacrificed his own personal statistics to make sure that his team won. You have to image that, deep down, Aikman would have liked to have been one of those gun slinging quarterbacks who threw the ball all over the field and put up huge numbers like some of his fellow quarterbacks. The fact that he played so unselfishly on great teams and ended up with more Super Bowl titles than all of the quarterbacks from his era should not be viewed as a coincidence.

Rhino (4:17:34 PM): If you don't want to discredit Aikman for playing on some great teams, then why do you want to penalize Elway for playing on some bad teams? If you look at the rosters of the Broncos during his Super Bowl losses, the roster isn't a "who's who," but rather, "who the heck is that?" I challenge any NFL fan to try to remember some of the running backs who played with Elway during the early part of his career. Elway put up huge passing yards because he had to. There was nobody else there to help. When you talk about a guy who made a grilled chicken salad out of chicken, umm, stuff, Elway certainly was the guy.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8089c211&template=with-video&confirm=true

Magnificent Seven
06-04-2008, 02:32 PM
John Elway! No question!

BOSSHOGG30
06-04-2008, 02:36 PM
I love this line: NFL Adam (3:52:29 PM): The knock against Troy Aikman has long been that he was surrounded by great talent, as if that makes him less of a quarterback. That actually had a negative impact on his numbers.

My response: Bullshit! You have to be kidding me. When you have the offensive line the Cowboys had and the running game to boot, your passing #'s should be off the chart! If you put John Elway in Troy Aikman's place on that team... John Elway would have mind boggling numbers. You put Troy Aikman on the Denver Broncos teams Elway has been on for the majority of his career...Aikman would be out with a concussion a lot sooner than when he finally did call it quits.

Ziggy
06-04-2008, 02:42 PM
Give Elway the offensive line that Aikman played behind and he wins a minimum of 5 super bowls. The Cowboys rarely ever had to throw, which made Aikman's job a peice of cake. Anyone remember Dan Reeves offenses? Run on first, run on second, and hope Elway can pull something out of his butt on third and long. He carried 3 talentless teams on his back to Super Bowls. No other QB in the league would have gotten those Broncos teams to thier first 3 Super Bowls.

lex
06-04-2008, 02:44 PM
Who thinks of this stuff? These guys are a couple of morons and heres the proof:
The fact of the matter is, Elway was the winningest quarterback in NFL history until the greatest quarterback of all time (Brett Favre) finally eclipsed his career mark of 148 wins.

shank
06-04-2008, 02:47 PM
i thought this thread would have some sort of debate in it :confused:...

lex
06-04-2008, 03:00 PM
i thought this thread would have some sort of debate in it :confused:...

OK, heres one thats more appropriate: Who was better, Troy Aikman, Bart Starr, or Terry Bradshaw?

BTW, did anyone happen to notice that NFLN has recently shown the loss to Oakland from 2004 (in the snow) and also the lopsided loss to Indy in the playoffs? I can kind of see the Oakland game. That was at least close. But the fact that they show the Indy game was a clear screw you.

BroncoFanatic
06-04-2008, 03:02 PM
Why the hell did they have to drag in that INT machine Favre into it?

Rhino = Kornheiser ?

NameUsedBefore
06-04-2008, 03:09 PM
Not even remotely comparable. I've always thought Aikman was one of the more overrated players in NFL history.

Any debate with Elway in it has to have Montana and Marino; no other QBs of that era match up to those three.

Requiem / The Dagda
06-04-2008, 03:19 PM
Brett Favre.

shank
06-04-2008, 03:21 PM
i can't believe nfln had montana ahead of elway on their clutch qb list... i mean, seriously?!

everyone they interviewed even said elway should be #1, and he holds the record... i don't watch those countdowns anymore...

dogfish
06-04-2008, 03:24 PM
nothing to see here, move along. . . .

BOSSHOGG30
06-04-2008, 03:34 PM
Peyton Manning and Tom Brady might on day be the best ever....even over John Elway.

It will be hard to compare the salary cap era to the none salary cap era.

BOSSHOGG30
06-04-2008, 03:39 PM
7789 passing yards
56 Touchdowns
39 Interceptions

What is the number of passing yards, touchdowns, and interceptions that Jay Cutler needs to mimic Peyton Mannings first three seasons in the NFL.

MOtorboat
06-04-2008, 04:02 PM
John Elway
Passing
Year Age Tm Pos G GS Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk%
1983 23 DEN QB 11 10 123 259 47.5 1663 7 2.7 14 5.4 49 6.4 4.3 13.5 151.2 54.9 28 218 5 3.1 9.8
1984 24 DEN QB 15 14 214 380 56.3 2598 18 4.7 15 3.9 73 6.8 5.5 12.1 173.2 76.8 24 158 6 4.8 5.9
1985 25 DEN QB 16 16 327 605 54 3891 22 3.6 23 3.8 65 6.4 5.1 11.9 243.2 70.2 38 307 5.6 4.3 5.9
1986* 26 DEN QB 16 16 280 504 55.6 3485 19 3.8 13 2.6 53 6.9 6.1 12.4 217.8 79 32 233 6.1 5.3 6
1987* 27 DEN QB 12 12 224 410 54.6 3198 19 4.6 12 2.9 72 7.8 6.9 14.3 266.5 83.4 20 138 7.1 6.3 4.7
1988 28 DEN QB 15 15 274 496 55.2 3309 17 3.4 19 3.8 86 6.7 5.3 12.1 220.6 71.4 30 237 5.8 4.5 5.7
1989* 29 DEN QB 15 15 223 416 53.6 3051 18 4.3 18 4.3 69 7.3 5.8 13.7 203.4 73.7 35 298 6.1 4.7 7.8
1990 30 DEN QB 16 16 294 502 58.6 3526 15 3 14 2.8 66 7 6.1 12 220.4 78.5 43 311 5.9 5 7.9
1991* 31 DEN QB 16 16 242 451 53.7 3253 13 2.9 12 2.7 71 7.2 6.3 13.4 203.3 75.4 45 305 5.9 5.1 9.1
1992 32 DEN QB 12 12 174 316 55.1 2242 10 3.2 17 5.4 80 7.1 5 12.9 186.8 65.7 36 272 5.6 3.7 10.2
1993* 33 DEN QB 16 16 348 551 63.2 4030 25 4.5 10 1.8 63 7.3 7 11.6 251.9 92.8 39 293 6.3 6 6.6
1994* 34 DEN QB 14 14 307 494 62.1 3490 16 3.2 10 2 63 7.1 6.5 11.4 249.3 85.7 46 303 5.9 5.4 8.5
1995 35 DEN QB 16 16 316 542 58.3 3970 26 4.8 14 2.6 62 7.3 6.6 12.6 248.1 86.4 22 180 6.7 6.1 3.9
1996* 36 DEN QB 15 15 287 466 61.6 3328 26 5.6 14 3 51 7.1 6.3 11.6 221.9 89.2 26 194 6.4 5.6 5.3
1997* 37 DEN QB 16 16 280 502 55.8 3635 27 5.4 11 2.2 78 7.2 6.8 13 227.2 87.5 34 203 6.4 6 6.3
1998* 38 DEN QB 13 12 210 356 59 2806 22 6.2 10 2.8 58 7.9 7.2 13.4 215.8 93 18 135 7.1 6.5 4.8
Career 234 231 4123 7250 56.9 51475 300 4.1 226 3.1 86 7.1 6.1 12.5 220 79.9 516 3785 6.1 5.2 6.6



Troy Aikman
Passing
Year Age Tm Pos G GS Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk%
1989 23 DAL QB 11 11 155 293 52.9 1749 9 3.1 18 6.1 75 6 3.5 11.3 159 55.7 19 155 5.1 2.8 6.1
1990 24 DAL QB 15 15 226 399 56.6 2579 11 2.8 18 4.5 61 6.5 4.7 11.4 171.9 66.6 39 288 5.2 3.6 8.9
1991* 25 DAL QB 12 12 237 363 65.3 2754 11 3 10 2.8 61 7.6 6.7 11.6 229.5 86.7 32 224 6.4 5.5 8.1
1992* 26 DAL QB 16 16 302 473 63.8 3445 23 4.9 14 3 87 7.3 6.4 11.4 215.3 89.5 23 112 6.7 5.9 4.6
1993* 27 DAL QB 14 14 271 392 69.1 3100 15 3.8 6 1.5 80 7.9 7.6 11.4 221.4 99 26 153 7.1 6.8 6.2
1994* 28 DAL QB 14 14 233 361 64.5 2676 13 3.6 12 3.3 90 7.4 6.3 11.5 191.1 84.9 14 59 7 5.9 3.7
1995* 29 DAL QB 16 16 280 432 64.8 3304 16 3.7 7 1.6 50 7.6 7.3 11.8 206.5 93.6 14 89 7.2 6.9 3.1
1996* 30 DAL QB 15 15 296 465 63.7 3126 12 2.6 13 2.8 61 6.7 5.7 10.6 208.4 80.1 18 120 6.2 5.3 3.7
1997 31 DAL QB 16 16 292 518 56.4 3283 19 3.7 12 2.3 64 6.3 5.7 11.2 205.2 78 33 269 5.5 4.8 6
1998 32 DAL QB 11 11 187 315 59.4 2330 12 3.8 5 1.6 67 7.4 7.1 12.5 211.8 88.5 9 58 7 6.7 2.8
1999 33 DAL QB 14 14 263 442 59.5 2964 17 3.8 12 2.7 90 6.7 5.9 11.3 211.7 81.1 19 130 6.1 5.3 4.1
2000 34 DAL QB 11 11 156 262 59.5 1632 7 2.7 14 5.3 48 6.2 4.1 10.5 148.4 64.3 13 91 5.6 3.6 4.7
Career 165 165 2898 4715 61.5 32942 165 3.5 141 3 90 7 6 11.4 199.6 81.6 259 1748 6.3 5.3 5.2

Well...I'll admit, I hadn't ever really looked at Aikman, and there's no way in hell I thought he was even close to Elway.

Well...this made me think, OK...maybe. Um, yeah, no.

Almost 20,000 more passing yards and almost twice the touchdown passes in just four more seasons. Aikman would have had to have thrown for 5,000 yards a season, and 27 touchdowns per season to reach the numbers Elway did. Yes, Aikman had to step away from health problems, but if you look at his last four seasons, you see records (with him as the starter) of 6-10, 7-4, 7-7, 4-7. I don't think he was going to throw for 20,000 more yards.

What's telling is those last four seasons, and his first season. Elway had two losing seasons, 1994 and 1990 (OK...he was 3-4 in 1983)...while Aikman floundered at the end of his career. Yes, Aikman was one of the more dominant passers in the game from 1991-1996, so it's kind of like saying Terrell Davis was better than Emmett Smith.

So...with that comparison...(TD vs. ES) you'd have to deduce that Elway was the better quarterback. I'd also have to say that because Aikman is in the Hall of Fame, so should TD. It's about dominance over a short stretch vs. dominance over a long stretch. If Aikman and Elway's careers had only spanned 1991-1996 (which, obviously, they didn't), Aikman would have been considered the better quarterback. But...they didn't...and Elway is the better quarterback, CLEARLY.

I say, Elway is much, much better than Aikman, and that their Instant Debate should have incorporated Montana-Elway-Marino, rather than Aikman-Elway.

(P.S. I was bored at work this afternoon :coffee:)

NightTrainLayne
06-04-2008, 04:08 PM
What a silly comparison. It's not even worth talking about. Aikman isn't even in the same zip-code.

MOtorboat
06-04-2008, 04:11 PM
Aikman isn't even in the same zip-code.

You're right. He lives in Texas. :coffee:

NightTrainLayne
06-04-2008, 04:12 PM
You're right. He lives in Texas. :coffee:

:rim-shot:

lex
06-04-2008, 04:21 PM
John Elway
Passing
Year Age Tm Pos G GS Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk%
1983 23 DEN QB 11 10 123 259 47.5 1663 7 2.7 14 5.4 49 6.4 4.3 13.5 151.2 54.9 28 218 5 3.1 9.8
1984 24 DEN QB 15 14 214 380 56.3 2598 18 4.7 15 3.9 73 6.8 5.5 12.1 173.2 76.8 24 158 6 4.8 5.9
1985 25 DEN QB 16 16 327 605 54 3891 22 3.6 23 3.8 65 6.4 5.1 11.9 243.2 70.2 38 307 5.6 4.3 5.9
1986* 26 DEN QB 16 16 280 504 55.6 3485 19 3.8 13 2.6 53 6.9 6.1 12.4 217.8 79 32 233 6.1 5.3 6
1987* 27 DEN QB 12 12 224 410 54.6 3198 19 4.6 12 2.9 72 7.8 6.9 14.3 266.5 83.4 20 138 7.1 6.3 4.7
1988 28 DEN QB 15 15 274 496 55.2 3309 17 3.4 19 3.8 86 6.7 5.3 12.1 220.6 71.4 30 237 5.8 4.5 5.7
1989* 29 DEN QB 15 15 223 416 53.6 3051 18 4.3 18 4.3 69 7.3 5.8 13.7 203.4 73.7 35 298 6.1 4.7 7.8
1990 30 DEN QB 16 16 294 502 58.6 3526 15 3 14 2.8 66 7 6.1 12 220.4 78.5 43 311 5.9 5 7.9
1991* 31 DEN QB 16 16 242 451 53.7 3253 13 2.9 12 2.7 71 7.2 6.3 13.4 203.3 75.4 45 305 5.9 5.1 9.1
1992 32 DEN QB 12 12 174 316 55.1 2242 10 3.2 17 5.4 80 7.1 5 12.9 186.8 65.7 36 272 5.6 3.7 10.2
1993* 33 DEN QB 16 16 348 551 63.2 4030 25 4.5 10 1.8 63 7.3 7 11.6 251.9 92.8 39 293 6.3 6 6.6
1994* 34 DEN QB 14 14 307 494 62.1 3490 16 3.2 10 2 63 7.1 6.5 11.4 249.3 85.7 46 303 5.9 5.4 8.5
1995 35 DEN QB 16 16 316 542 58.3 3970 26 4.8 14 2.6 62 7.3 6.6 12.6 248.1 86.4 22 180 6.7 6.1 3.9
1996* 36 DEN QB 15 15 287 466 61.6 3328 26 5.6 14 3 51 7.1 6.3 11.6 221.9 89.2 26 194 6.4 5.6 5.3
1997* 37 DEN QB 16 16 280 502 55.8 3635 27 5.4 11 2.2 78 7.2 6.8 13 227.2 87.5 34 203 6.4 6 6.3
1998* 38 DEN QB 13 12 210 356 59 2806 22 6.2 10 2.8 58 7.9 7.2 13.4 215.8 93 18 135 7.1 6.5 4.8
Career 234 231 4123 7250 56.9 51475 300 4.1 226 3.1 86 7.1 6.1 12.5 220 79.9 516 3785 6.1 5.2 6.6



Troy Aikman
Passing
Year Age Tm Pos G GS Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A Y/C Y/G Rate Sk Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk%
1989 23 DAL QB 11 11 155 293 52.9 1749 9 3.1 18 6.1 75 6 3.5 11.3 159 55.7 19 155 5.1 2.8 6.1
1990 24 DAL QB 15 15 226 399 56.6 2579 11 2.8 18 4.5 61 6.5 4.7 11.4 171.9 66.6 39 288 5.2 3.6 8.9
1991* 25 DAL QB 12 12 237 363 65.3 2754 11 3 10 2.8 61 7.6 6.7 11.6 229.5 86.7 32 224 6.4 5.5 8.1
1992* 26 DAL QB 16 16 302 473 63.8 3445 23 4.9 14 3 87 7.3 6.4 11.4 215.3 89.5 23 112 6.7 5.9 4.6
1993* 27 DAL QB 14 14 271 392 69.1 3100 15 3.8 6 1.5 80 7.9 7.6 11.4 221.4 99 26 153 7.1 6.8 6.2
1994* 28 DAL QB 14 14 233 361 64.5 2676 13 3.6 12 3.3 90 7.4 6.3 11.5 191.1 84.9 14 59 7 5.9 3.7
1995* 29 DAL QB 16 16 280 432 64.8 3304 16 3.7 7 1.6 50 7.6 7.3 11.8 206.5 93.6 14 89 7.2 6.9 3.1
1996* 30 DAL QB 15 15 296 465 63.7 3126 12 2.6 13 2.8 61 6.7 5.7 10.6 208.4 80.1 18 120 6.2 5.3 3.7
1997 31 DAL QB 16 16 292 518 56.4 3283 19 3.7 12 2.3 64 6.3 5.7 11.2 205.2 78 33 269 5.5 4.8 6
1998 32 DAL QB 11 11 187 315 59.4 2330 12 3.8 5 1.6 67 7.4 7.1 12.5 211.8 88.5 9 58 7 6.7 2.8
1999 33 DAL QB 14 14 263 442 59.5 2964 17 3.8 12 2.7 90 6.7 5.9 11.3 211.7 81.1 19 130 6.1 5.3 4.1
2000 34 DAL QB 11 11 156 262 59.5 1632 7 2.7 14 5.3 48 6.2 4.1 10.5 148.4 64.3 13 91 5.6 3.6 4.7
Career 165 165 2898 4715 61.5 32942 165 3.5 141 3 90 7 6 11.4 199.6 81.6 259 1748 6.3 5.3 5.2

Well...I'll admit, I hadn't ever really looked at Aikman, and there's no way in hell I thought he was even close to Elway.

Well...this made me think, OK...maybe. Um, yeah, no.

Almost 20,000 more passing yards and almost twice the touchdown passes in just four more seasons. Aikman would have had to have thrown for 5,000 yards a season, and 27 touchdowns per season to reach the numbers Elway did. Yes, Aikman had to step away from health problems, but if you look at his last four seasons, you see records (with him as the starter) of 6-10, 7-4, 7-7, 4-7. I don't think he was going to throw for 20,000 more yards.

What's telling is those last four seasons, and his first season. Elway had two losing seasons, 1994 and 1990 (OK...he was 3-4 in 1983)...while Aikman floundered at the end of his career. Yes, Aikman was one of the more dominant passers in the game from 1991-1996, so it's kind of like saying Terrell Davis was better than Emmett Smith.

So...with that comparison...(TD vs. ES) you'd have to deduce that Elway was the better quarterback. I'd also have to say that because Aikman is in the Hall of Fame, so should TD. It's about dominance over a short stretch vs. dominance over a long stretch. If Aikman and Elway's careers had only spanned 1991-1996 (which, obviously, they didn't), Aikman would have been considered the better quarterback. But...they didn't...and Elway is the better quarterback, CLEARLY.

I say, Elway is much, much better than Aikman, and that their Instant Debate should have incorporated Montana-Elway-Marino, rather than Aikman-Elway.

(P.S. I was bored at work this afternoon :coffee:)

Honestly, Elways case isnt driven so much by statistics. He has outstanding career numbers but to be honest with you, I was kind of surprised when I learned what his career numbers were...but even without knowing that, I thought he was one of the top 3 QBs of all time. To really have a sense for how good Elway was, you really had to see him play. First of all, he could make plays that no QB before or since could (save perhaps Randall Cunningham). Secondly, the way Dan Reeves coached those teams most of the time, it was pretty much play it close to the vest and then let Elway bail us out at the end of the game. Otherwise he could have had better stats and Denver could have won decisively more often. And even with those restrictions Elway was incredible. He was an absoulute master at improvising the broken play. He wasnt the passer Marino was but Elway had a stronger arm and could create more with his feet. Elway and Marino were the only two QBs that I can think of that could have taken those Denver teams to a SB. If you put Elway on those 49er teams in the mid 80s, they win at least as many SBs. If you put Favre, Montana, Aikman,...practically anyone not named Elway or Marino on those Denver teams from the 80s and they dont even make it to the super bowl.

Lets put it this way: How many SBs did Aikman take Dallas to without Emmit Smith? Whats Aikmans career #s.

And unlike Favre, Elway wouldnt make the stupid mistakes when on the precupice of winning.

Medford Bronco
06-04-2008, 04:23 PM
Rhino (4:17:34 PM): If you don't want to discredit Aikman for playing on some great teams, then why do you want to penalize Elway for playing on some bad teams? If you look at the rosters of the Broncos during his Super Bowl losses, the roster isn't a "who's who," but rather, "who the heck is that?" I challenge any NFL fan to try to remember some of the running backs who played with Elway during the early part of his career. Elway put up huge passing yards because he had to. There was nobody else there to help. When you talk about a guy who made a grilled chicken salad out of chicken, umm, stuff, Elway certainly was the guy.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8089c211&template=with-video&confirm=true


You mean we all did not love Sammy Winder, Gerald Wilhite(sp), Gene Lang, Reggie Rivers and Melvin Bratton :pound:

MOtorboat
06-04-2008, 04:46 PM
Honestly, Elways case isnt driven so much by statistics. He has outstanding career numbers but to be honest with you, I was kind of surprised when I learned what his career numbers were...but even without knowing that, I thought he was one of the top 3 QBs of all time. To really have a sense for how good Elway was, you really had to see him play. First of all, he could make plays that no QB before or since could (save perhaps Randall Cunningham). Secondly, the way Dan Reeves coached those teams most of the time, it was pretty much play it close to the vest and then let Elway bail us out at the end of the game. Otherwise he could have had better stats and Denver could have won decisively more often. And even with those restrictions Elway was incredible. He was an absoulute master at improvising the broken play. He wasnt the passer Marino was but Elway had a stronger arm and could create more with his feet. Elway and Marino were the only two QBs that I can think of that could have taken those Denver teams to a SB. If you put Elway on those 49er teams in the mid 80s, they win at least as many SBs. If you put Favre, Montana, Aikman,...practically anyone not named Elway or Marino on those Denver teams from the 80s and they dont even make it to the super bowl.

Lets put it this way: How many SBs did Aikman take Dallas to without Emmit Smith? Whats Aikmans career #s.

And unlike Favre, Elway wouldnt make the stupid mistakes when on the precupice of winning.

Which is why I never even put Aikman into the same category until I saw this...so I looked up the stats and the stats don't even compare, either.

NFL.com made a Stupid comparison.

Their instant debate should have been Elway vs. Favre or something a little more topical.

MOtorboat
06-04-2008, 05:00 PM
And unlike Favre, Elway wouldnt make the stupid mistakes when on the precupice of winning.

Favre was certainly horrible at throwing away games, but Elway did throw 6 INTs in the first 3 SBs he played in.

Npba900
06-04-2008, 05:16 PM
Honestly, Elways case isnt driven so much by statistics. He has outstanding career numbers but to be honest with you, I was kind of surprised when I learned what his career numbers were...but even without knowing that, I thought he was one of the top 3 QBs of all time. To really have a sense for how good Elway was, you really had to see him play. First of all, he could make plays that no QB before or since could (save perhaps Randall Cunningham). Secondly, the way Dan Reeves coached those teams most of the time, it was pretty much play it close to the vest and then let Elway bail us out at the end of the game. Otherwise he could have had better stats and Denver could have won decisively more often. And even with those restrictions Elway was incredible. He was an absoulute master at improvising the broken play. He wasnt the passer Marino was but Elway had a stronger arm and could create more with his feet. Elway and Marino were the only two QBs that I can think of that could have taken those Denver teams to a SB. If you put Elway on those 49er teams in the mid 80s, they win at least as many SBs. If you put Favre, Montana, Aikman,...practically anyone not named Elway or Marino on those Denver teams from the 80s and they dont even make it to the super bowl.

Lets put it this way: How many SBs did Aikman take Dallas to without Emmit Smith? Whats Aikmans career #s.

And unlike Favre, Elway wouldnt make the stupid mistakes when on the precupice of winning.

Great comparison. I would also like to add that once Montana left the vastly talented 49ers and landed with the moderately talented Chiefs! Montana was unable to lead the Chiefs to a SB. Whereas, Elway took Bronco teams who had the same amount of talent as Montana's Chiefs had to the SB 3 times. This shows that Montana needed to be surrounded by great talent to win SB's. Also, lets not forget Elways amazing durability! He may still hold the record for enduring the most sacks which was over 500 sacks. No way in hell does Montana last in the NFL had he endured over 500 sacks. Neither could have Marino or Aikmen for that matter.

Den21vsBal19
06-04-2008, 05:22 PM
You mean we all did not love Sammy Winder, Gerald Wilhite(sp), Gene Lang, Reggie Rivers and Melvin Bratton :pound:
You forgot Steve Sewell ;)

Cleveland Rocks
06-04-2008, 05:57 PM
Who was better?

Elway

I don't care for the guy and don't particularly like him. But I really can't stand the Cowboys.

broncosfanscott
06-04-2008, 06:13 PM
This insn't even a debate.....more like a runaway. Aikman isn't even close to being better than Elway. Elway did more with less than any QB past or present. I mean if Elway had TD, Smith, Eddie-Mac, and the rest earlier in his career he would have won more than two Super Bowls.

NFL Adam (4:11:23 PM): Once again, I feel that Aikman gets slighted because his teams always won. The Cowboys never trailed much during his career, and he doesn’t have that one signature moment that captures the imagination like "The Drive" or other great comebacks. When it comes to being a winner, none were bigger than Aikman.

Uh, excuse me sir. Elway kind of won more games than this Aikman dude.

lex
06-04-2008, 06:40 PM
Favre was certainly horrible at throwing away games, but Elway did throw 6 INTs in the first 3 SBs he played in.

Its not even close to the same thing. I said when on the precupice of winning. At what point was Denver on the verge of winning any of those SBs? And some of Favres most dubious INTs came with a perfectly good RB in Ahman Green on the roster. One year Green Bay had a decent chance at beating St. Louis in the playoffs but they lost because Favre set the record for INTs in a playoff game...and again, that was a winnable game for them. And then of course theres the mysterious INT he threw vs Philadelphia...no one is saying Elway never threw an INT but not in those situations.

When your MO is and your built to not lose games as was the case with Denver in the 80s, you encounter a problem when in the SB you face teams that are built to win games as opposed to not lose games.

Northman
06-04-2008, 06:47 PM
What a silly comparison. It's not even worth talking about. Aikman isn't even in the same zip-code.

Should of just locked the thread after this post. Straight to the point and on the money.

Northman
06-04-2008, 06:53 PM
Favre was certainly horrible at throwing away games, but Elway did throw 6 INTs in the first 3 SBs he played in.

But thankfully the Bills did us a favor by having what was it? 8 or 9 Turnovers in a Super Bowl to replace Denver with that record.

Lonestar
06-04-2008, 07:05 PM
Who thinks of this stuff? These guys are a couple of morons and heres the proof:

and you do not think that Brett Farve is the greatest QB? Sheer numbers say he is.. him and John were saddle with losers teammates for much of their careers..

Brett does indeed hold almost every passing record in the NFL.. can't really argue with that as much as I liked the Duke, they are almost twins in most regards. IMO

I'd taken either of them over some of the other immortals..

Northman
06-04-2008, 07:38 PM
I'd taken either of them over some of the other immortals..

In a heartbeat.

claymore
06-04-2008, 07:43 PM
My answer to this question is simple.

Q: Could Elway win with Aikmans teams?
A: Hell Yeah

Q: Could Aikman win with Elway's teams?
A: Hel no. No chance in hell.

Aikman was a system QB that benefited from the Herschel walker trade. No way to ever tell for sure, But Elway might have a few more SB rings if he was In Troys situation. Hell So would Ryan Leaf.

Just sayin.

Timmy!
06-04-2008, 09:10 PM
This is like debating if a bear craps in the woods. Everybody knows the answer.

Scarface
06-04-2008, 10:24 PM
Wow, I can't believe this is a debate. Anyone who saw both play would know Elway was the far better player. Watching Aikman try to pull off late 4th quarter comebacks was comical if the play ever broke down.

sneakers
06-05-2008, 01:11 AM
I love this line: NFL Adam (3:52:29 PM): The knock against Troy Aikman has long been that he was surrounded by great talent, as if that makes him less of a quarterback. That actually had a negative impact on his numbers.

My response: Bullshit! You have to be kidding me. When you have the offensive line the Cowboys had and the running game to boot, your passing #'s should be off the chart! If you put John Elway in Troy Aikman's place on that team... John Elway would have mind boggling numbers. You put Troy Aikman on the Denver Broncos teams Elway has been on for the majority of his career...Aikman would be out with a concussion a lot sooner than when he finally did call it quits.

I think the same can be said of Joe Montana. Put Elway on the 49ers and Montana on the Broncos.

sneakers
06-05-2008, 01:14 AM
:laugh:


http://www.theonion.com/content/node/51530

Troy Aikman Becomes First Robot Inducted Into Pro Football Hall Of Fame

Troy Aikman Becomes First Robot Inducted Into Pro Football Hall Of Fame
August 10, 2006 | | Onion Sports

CANTON, OH—Troy Aikman, the blond, blue-sensored humanoid robot who led the Dallas Cowboys to three Super Bowls in his 12-year period of servitude with the team, became the first artificial construct to enter the Pro Football Hall of Fame Sunday. "No one who saw Dallas' Throwing/Running Offensive Yardage generator, or T.R.O.Y. as we called him around the shop, will forget his perfect mechanics or the cold, unemotional style he brought to the position of quarterbot," said former Cowboys offensive coordinator Norv Turner, who was responsible for writing Aikman's programs and who introduced Aikman during the induction ceremony. "If it were possible to feel love for a mere machine, I think everyone here would agree that we all might just love Troy Aikman." Aikman himself delivered a brief pre-recorded speech thanking all the technicians who made him possible before removing his head and upper torso, which will be displayed in the Hall of Fame alongside the busts of human players.

Poet
06-05-2008, 01:29 AM
John Elway was the better QB. Stats prove that to me.

Poet
06-05-2008, 01:34 AM
My answer to this question is simple.

Q: Could Elway win with Aikmans teams?
A: Hell Yeah

Q: Could Aikman win with Elway's teams?
A: Hel no. No chance in hell.

Aikman was a system QB that benefited from the Herschel walker trade. No way to ever tell for sure, But Elway might have a few more SB rings if he was In Troys situation. Hell So would Ryan Leaf.

Just sayin.


System QBs don't make it to the HOF. Aikman was not as good as John Elway, but to call him a system QB is hysterical. He played on a run first team. Elway sure did when he was able to win Superbowls. I mean, most of the all time teams had great running games and ran the ball first.

OB
06-05-2008, 01:46 AM
How can you debate a non issue :coffee:

Elway v Aikman - puuuhhlleeeaaaasseee - try at least Montana or something :coffee:

lex
06-05-2008, 03:18 AM
and you do not think that Brett Farve is the greatest QB? Sheer numbers say he is.. him and John were saddle with losers teammates for much of their careers..

Brett does indeed hold almost every passing record in the NFL.. can't really argue with that as much as I liked the Duke, they are almost twins in most regards. IMO

I'd taken either of them over some of the other immortals..

No theyre not twins and Ive already explained how theyre not. And actually, Elway was more athletic, could improvise more, and had the stronger arm. Favre only broke records because he stuck around so long. Also Elway didnt play in the WCO his whole career like Favre. Its amazing that anyone who played in the WCO has the all time record for INTs. Schematically the WCO is supposed to be low risk.

Poet
06-05-2008, 05:09 AM
No theyre not twins and Ive already explained how theyre not. And actually, Elway was more athletic, could improvise more, and had the stronger arm. Favre only broke records because he stuck around so long. Also Elway didnt play in the WCO his whole career like Favre. Its amazing that anyone who played in the WCO has the all time record for INTs. Schematically the WCO is supposed to be low risk.

You could not be more wrong if you tried.

Favre played all of ONE season longer then Elway. And take into account that Favre's first year he rode the bench the entire way barring two games.

Elway was more athletic, but so what? He was more likely to do things with his feet, which is fine and all but when you start to talk about the very last line of play a QB should make I find it humorous.

Favre played in the WCO, but let's be honest, the scheme didn't matter. The Packers always had a lot of big passing plays because of the way Favre played.

Other things to take into consideration about the two.

Favre may have taken more risks, but they apparently where worth it because he had a higher QB rating then Elway did.

Favre threw 142 more TDs then Elway did. He threw 62 more TDs then Elway. That is worth it as far as I am concerned.

Elway never threw for four thousand yards except once. Favre did it five times. Favre had a career completion percentage of 61.4. Elway had a career completion percentage of 56.9. Favre managed to do with with over 1k more attempted passes then Elway.

Elway only had three seasons in which he threw twice as many TDs as he did INTs. Favre did this five times. Favre threw for 10k more yards then Elway did, while only playing one more season then Elway did. Which, as I noted previously barely counts because he played two games his first season.

Brett Favre was a better QB then Elway.

lex
06-05-2008, 09:08 AM
You could not be more wrong if you tried.

Favre played all of ONE season longer then Elway. And take into account that Favre's first year he rode the bench the entire way barring two games.

And that one season was when he broke the records. Elway played in increments his first year. Id be wary of comparing the stats of a QB in his rookie year with one who played more games on the backend when he had more experience under his belt.


Elway was more athletic, but so what? He was more likely to do things with his feet, which is fine and all but when you start to talk about the very last line of play a QB should make I find it humorous.

This last part is a little awkward. Im not sure what youre trying to say there but the athleticism was huge in the improvisation. Elway could scramble out of a bad play or buy time with his feet by wheeling out of a pocket in a doomed play to give the play new life by letting someone get open deep. Check out that Monday night game vs the Bears. I actually have a recording of that game.


Favre played in the WCO, but let's be honest, the scheme didn't matter. The Packers always had a lot of big passing plays because of the way Favre played.

Sure it did. Many will tell you Holmgren has run the purest form of the WCO and it was a constant effort for Holmgren to curb Favres bad habits.


Other things to take into consideration about the two.

Favre may have taken more risks, but they apparently where worth it because he had a higher QB rating then Elway did.
You say the WCO doesnt matter but this is a perfect example of where it does matter. The QB Rating favors players in the WCO. It may be hard to remember but the WCO was not always so prevalent. In the 80s QBs like Marino or Elway would throw the ball downfield more as this was their strength.


Favre threw 142 more TDs then Elway did. He threw 62 more TDs then Elway. That is worth it as far as I am concerned.
What?



Elway never threw for four thousand yards except once. Favre did it five times. Favre had a career completion percentage of 61.4. Elway had a career completion percentage of 56.9. Favre managed to do with with over 1k more attempted passes then Elway.

Once again, you say the WCO doesnt matter only to undermine your own argument. And when Denver did utilize the WCO it wasnt even its purest form. The WCO from the Walsh days utilized the short passing game as a substitute for the run. Denver didnt do that so much because they actually ran the ball.


Elway only had three seasons in which he threw twice as many TDs as he did INTs. Favre did this five times. Favre threw for 10k more yards then Elway did, while only playing one more season then Elway did. Which, as I noted previously barely counts because he played two games his first season.

OK, once again, the prevalence of schematics and play design...but what did Elway do on the precupice of winning? I dont remember Elway ever throwing a pick (or 6 in one game) when everything was at stake like Favre.


Brett Favre was a better QB then Elway.

Youve torpedoed your own arguments.

But anyway, circling back to what I said, Elways case wasnt driven as much by stats but by watching him save our bacon over and over. Where Elway saved the bacon, Favre broke peoples hearts by throwing a pick.

atwater27
06-05-2008, 10:45 AM
Why the hell did they have to drag in that INT machine Favre into it?

Rhino = Kornheiser ?

As an Elway fan,I wouldn't be too quick to criticize Favre on int's. It's not like Elway was a stranger to them. and if you don't think Favre is one of the greatest of all time, I challenge your football knowledge.:D

Poet
06-05-2008, 02:01 PM
And that one season was when he broke the records. Elway played in increments his first year. Id be wary of comparing the stats of a QB in his rookie year with one who played more games on the backend when he had more experience under his belt.



This last part is a little awkward. Im not sure what youre trying to say there but the athleticism was huge in the improvisation. Elway could scramble out of a bad play or buy time with his feet by wheeling out of a pocket in a doomed play to give the play new life by letting someone get open deep. Check out that Monday night game vs the Bears. I actually have a recording of that game.



Sure it did. Many will tell you Holmgren has run the purest form of the WCO and it was a constant effort for Holmgren to curb Favres bad habits.


You say the WCO doesnt matter but this is a perfect example of where it does matter. The QB Rating favors players in the WCO. It may be hard to remember but the WCO was not always so prevalent. In the 80s QBs like Marino or Elway would throw the ball downfield more as this was their strength.


What?




Once again, you say the WCO doesnt matter only to undermine your own argument. And when Denver did utilize the WCO it wasnt even its purest form. The WCO from the Walsh days utilized the short passing game as a substitute for the run. Denver didnt do that so much because they actually ran the ball.



OK, once again, the prevalence of schematics and play design...but what did Elway do on the precupice of winning? I dont remember Elway ever throwing a pick (or 6 in one game) when everything was at stake like Favre.



Youve torpedoed your own arguments.

But anyway, circling back to what I said, Elways case wasnt driven as much by stats but by watching him save our bacon over and over. Where Elway saved the bacon, Favre broke peoples hearts by throwing a pick.


And that one year he ended up putting numbers that blew out Elway's career average. So, he kept playing like a stud because he was a stud. And remember, he played two games his rookier year, he may as well have not played that year.

Athleticism is not as big of a deal when it comes to improvisation as you think. Look at Carson Palmer, that is one big slow lumbering son of a gun. But many times I have seen him get out of a situation where he should have been run out of bounds or sacked and made something happen. Brett Favre is well KNOWN for his improvisational skills.

Once again, nothing I have said undermines any of my brilliant and oh so correct points :D. Brett Favre threw the ball how Brett Favre wanted. Scheme be damned, on NFL films they showed how time and time again Brett Favre flat out ignored Holmgren and audibled into a play that he wanted, usually a play that wasn't what one would call a WCO pass.

Yes, John Elway saved your bacon a lot of times, but he also threw a ton of picks himself. And seeing how Favre puts him to shame in every stat category it isn't even really up for debate when you take off those Bronco sunglasses. They both have a SB championship, and while John Elway has two, please do remember that he couldn't win the big one until TD showed up. Oh yeah, and he also lost three SBs, as opposed to Favre losing one.

topscribe
06-05-2008, 02:07 PM
Aikman in the same breath as Elway?? :confused: :faint:

-----

Poet
06-05-2008, 02:10 PM
Aikman in the same breath as Elway?? :confused: :faint:

-----

That is pretty silly. However, some people still scream that winning is the best indicator of how had a great career, and are stuck with Aikman because he had three Superbowls.

NightTrainLayne
06-05-2008, 02:11 PM
And that one year he ended up putting numbers that blew out Elway's career average. So, he kept playing like a stud because he was a stud. And remember, he played two games his rookier year, he may as well have not played that year.

Athleticism is not as big of a deal when it comes to improvisation as you think. Look at Carson Palmer, that is one big slow lumbering son of a gun. But many times I have seen him get out of a situation where he should have been run out of bounds or sacked and made something happen. Brett Favre is well KNOWN for his improvisational skills.

Once again, nothing I have said undermines any of my brilliant and oh so correct points :D. Brett Favre threw the ball how Brett Favre wanted. Scheme be damned, on NFL films they showed how time and time again Brett Favre flat out ignored Holmgren and audibled into a play that he wanted, usually a play that wasn't what one would call a WCO pass.

Yes, John Elway saved your bacon a lot of times, but he also threw a ton of picks himself. And seeing how Favre puts him to shame in every stat category it isn't even really up for debate when you take off those Bronco sunglasses. They both have a SB championship, and while John Elway has two, please do remember that he couldn't win the big one until TD showed up. Oh yeah, and he also lost three SBs, as opposed to Favre losing one.


Puts him to shame? I'm sorry but 1st place in career victories doesn't put 2nd place "to shame"

Elway doesn't just have two SB championships but 5 AFC championships to go with it.

Look at how Elway's #'s changed after Shanny became HC. He was being held back by Reeves, and Wade Phillips.

If Elway had played in a QB-friendly system his whole career it would be a different story.

Poet
06-05-2008, 02:22 PM
Puts him to shame? I'm sorry but 1st place in career victories doesn't put 2nd place "to shame"

Elway doesn't just have two SB championships but 5 AFC championships to go with it.

Look at how Elway's #'s changed after Shanny became HC. He was being held back by Reeves, and Wade Phillips.

If Elway had played in a QB-friendly system his whole career it would be a different story.

Pull out the stat sheets again. Read them carefully. Then read them again. After that read them one more time. When you notice the trend of Favre being better by a pretty good margin in all the categories you will get it.

Yes, it was totally the coach that caused Elway to have unspectacular TD to INTS ratios, and an unimpressive QB rating and completion percentage.

I can play the if game too. If Brett Favre had a WR who is worthy of the HOF like Rod Smith was. If Brett Favre had a TE the caliber of Sharpe (no, Chimera or however you spell his name is not that caliber) maybe his numbers would be even better. When you compare two guys, and they both proved that they can win the SB (if you put much stock in it seeing how it is a team accomplishment) you take the guy with better stats. And in this case Favre has much better stats.

Case closed.

NightTrainLayne
06-05-2008, 02:26 PM
Pull out the stat sheets again. Read them carefully. Then read them again. After that read them one more time. When you notice the trend of Favre being better by a pretty good margin in all the categories you will get it.

Yes, it was totally the coach that caused Elway to have unspectacular TD to INTS ratios, and an unimpressive QB rating and completion percentage.

I can play the if game too. If Brett Favre had a WR who is worthy of the HOF like Rod Smith was. If Brett Favre had a TE the caliber of Sharpe (no, Chimera or however you spell his name is not that caliber) maybe his numbers would be even better. When you compare two guys, and they both proved that they can win the SB (if you put much stock in it seeing how it is a team accomplishment) you take the guy with better stats. And in this case Favre has much better stats.

Case closed.

Favre has "much better" stats compared to Bernie Kosar.

He has slightly better stats compared to Elway. Arguably, very similar stats.

Poet
06-05-2008, 02:31 PM
Favre has "much better" stats compared to Bernie Kosar.

He has slightly better stats compared to Elway. Arguably, very similar stats.

Ten THOUSAND more passing yards, ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY TWO more touch down passes, completetion percentage and QB rating over four points each higher then Elway, and all the while managing to do all that with over 1k more attempts.

Slightly better if you have issues with numbers.:beer:

scott.475
06-05-2008, 02:55 PM
Can we throw in rushing yards, just to make it a more complete comparison?

Elway: 774 att, 3407 yards, 33tds, 76 fumbles (34 lost)
Favre: 555 att, 1786 yards, 13tds, 147 fumbles (64 lost)
Aikman: 327 att, 1016 yards, 9tds, 47 fumbles (22 lost)

NightTrainLayne
06-05-2008, 03:02 PM
Ten THOUSAND more passing yards, ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY TWO more touch down passes, completetion percentage and QB rating over four points each higher then Elway, and all the while managing to do all that with over 1k more attempts.

Slightly better if you have issues with numbers.:beer:

For some reason you got me motivated, and I'm not a "stats-crazy" guy.

Let's parse these numbers a little bit more.

You make a big deal that Favre only played one more season than Elway, and belittle the notion that the systems they played in should make any difference.

However, in terms of total attempts Farve attempted 8,758 passes in his career vs. Elways 7,250. This breaks down to 547/attempts per season for Favre (I left out his 2 game rookie season), vs. 453/attempts per season for Elway.

Favre attempted 1,508 more passes in his career. This would equate to THREE AND A THIRD more seasons than Elway at 453/attempts per season.

Elway averaged 7.1 yards/attempt.

Favre averaged 7.04 yards/attempt

Advantage Elway. Over 1,508 attempts this would add 10,706.8 more yards to Elways total.

Elway averaged .0414 TDs/attempt

Favre averaged .0504 TDs/attempt

Advantage Favre, but this would add 62 TDs To Elway's #'s

Elway averaged .0312 Ints/attempt

Favre average .0329 Ints/attempt

Advantage Elway

Elway averaged .0047 lost fumbles/passing attempt

Favre averaged .0073 lost fumbles/passing attempt

Advantage Elway (and an often over-looked weakness in Favres game--he let himself get stripped of the ball way too often. . .see SB XXXII for a prime example :D)

Elway averaged .0359 Turnovers/passing attempt

Favre averaged .0402 Turnovers/passing attempt

Advantage Elway.

In other words. . .Give Elway 1500 more attempts and his numbers are very comparable to Favre's. .. if not better.

Poet
06-05-2008, 03:03 PM
Can we throw in rushing yards, just to make it a more complete comparison?

Elway: 774 att, 3407 yards, 33tds, 76 fumbles (34 lost)
Favre: 555 att, 1786 yards, 13tds, 147 fumbles (64 lost)
Aikman: 327 att, 1016 yards, 9tds, 47 fumbles (22 lost)

That does seem very fair to me. Hands down Elway was the best of that group when it came to having to run.

Poet
06-05-2008, 03:05 PM
And you know what trumps that NTL? THe fact that Favre did it and Elway did not. When you start throwing on all those extra attempts you give yourself a higher chance to mess up. Favre threw the ball a ton and still put up the staggering numbers with the staggering ratios. Elway put up less the impressive ratios with 1,500 fewer attempts. The more you throw, the harder it is to keep up your high performance.

Hmm, another category that Favre beats out Elway on. Thank you.:beer:;)

NightTrainLayne
06-05-2008, 03:09 PM
And you know what trumps that NTL? THe fact that Favre did it and Elway did not. When you start throwing on all those extra attempts you give yourself a higher chance to mess up. Favre threw the ball a ton and still put up the staggering numbers with the staggering ratios. Elway put up less the impressive ratios with 1,500 fewer attempts. The more you throw, the harder it is to keep up your high performance.

Hmm, another category that Favre beats out Elway on. Thank you.:beer:;)

That is the definition of circular logic.

edit: please note also that Favre only has a better RATIO in one category.

scott.475
06-05-2008, 03:25 PM
Fact is, until last year, the only real debate was between Montana and Elway, now wwe throw Favre into the mix. I like the Favre/Elway comparison more, because they were more alike then Elway/Montana.

I do not like extrapolating numbers into the future when we will never be able to see if the predictions can actually come true.

Fact is, as hard as it is for fans on both sides to accept, Favre was better in a lot of categories, and Elway was better in a lot of categories. This is kind of like arguing with someone about what the best color is, it really only comes down to who is your favorite. I really do not think there is a fair way to crown either of them the best ever.

Aikman? Who is that?

lex
06-05-2008, 04:15 PM
For some reason you got me motivated, and I'm not a "stats-crazy" guy.

Let's parse these numbers a little bit more.

You make a big deal that Favre only played one more season than Elway, and belittle the notion that the systems they played in should make any difference.

However, in terms of total attempts Farve attempted 8,758 passes in his career vs. Elways 7,250. This breaks down to 547/attempts per season for Favre (I left out his 2 game rookie season), vs. 453/attempts per season for Elway.

Favre attempted 1,508 more passes in his career. This would equate to THREE AND A THIRD more seasons than Elway at 453/attempts per season.


Elway averaged 7.1 yards/attempt.
Post WCO/Shanahan: 7.363 yards/attempt

Favre averaged 7.04 yards/attempt

Advantage Elway. Over 1,508 attempts this would add 10,706.8 more yards to Elways total.

Elway averaged .0414 TDs/attempt
Post WCO/Shanahan: .0541 TDs/attempt

Favre averaged .0504 TDs/attempt

Advantage Favre, but this would add 62 TDs To Elway's #'s

Elway averaged .0312 Ints/attempt
Post WCO/Shanahan: .0263

Favre average .0329 Ints/attempt

Advantage Elway

Elway averaged .0047 lost fumbles/passing attempt

Favre averaged .0073 lost fumbles/passing attempt

Advantage Elway (and an often over-looked weakness in Favres game--he let himself get stripped of the ball way too often. . .see SB XXXII for a prime example :D)

Elway averaged .0359 Turnovers/passing attempt

Favre averaged .0402 Turnovers/passing attempt

Advantage Elway.

In other words. . .Give Elway 1500 more attempts and his numbers are very comparable to Favre's. .. if not better.

Good work. I did further research building on what you did looking at Elways time in the WCO (the same offense Favre played in his entire time in GB)...basically this was Elways last 4 years. It was hardly his prime. And the difference is very noticeable. Just to further illustrate this, Elways QB Rtg in the WCO had a low of 86.4 and a high of 93.0...again, these were hardly his prime years. Compare that to a range of 70.2 and 92.8 without the WCO.

I dont want to hear how the offense doesnt make a difference. Its not as if Denver never threw it downfield either.

topscribe
06-05-2008, 04:23 PM
It's easy to vaunt Elway as a G.O.A.T. through orange lenses. What do
people, knowledgeable people, outside the World of the Broncos think?

-----

# "John Elway is the master of the inconceivable pass thrown to the unreachable spot."--Pat Summerall, FOX Analyst and Former NY Giant



So far in Elway's career, his offensive linemen and wide receivers have been voted to the Pro Bowl a combined seven times. In Dan Marino's 15 seasons, Miami Dolphins offensive linemen and wide receivers have been selected to the Pro Bowl 30 times. Though usually surrounded by a human rummage sale, Elway has won more games as a starter than any other quarterback in NFL history (138). It's the equivalent of carving Mount Rushmore with a spoon or composing Beethoven's Ninth on a kazoo.

But Elway's career has been about more than just winning. It has been about escaping defeat a half page from the end of the novel, leaping over pits of fire with the microdot hidden in his cigarette lighter. . . . He may be the only quarterback in history who could stand on his own two-yard line, trailing by five with less than two minutes to play, no timeouts left, windchill –5, and cause the opposing coach to mutter, ‘We're in trouble.' (Sports Illustrated, qtd. in Austin Murphy's The Super Bowl: Sports Greatest Championship)


# "I used to strain every muscle in my body to throw 70 yards, and he [Elway] stands there and flicks his wrist."--Otto Graham


# "Everyone should realize that John is special. We might not have seen anyone quite like him before."--Joe Namath

# "With his arm strength and mobility, he was a rare combination of talents. I don't know if I've seen a quarterback who had the ability to run and the ability to throw in one package like John Elway. He is certainly a player that will be missed in the NFL. He was a great asset to our league."--Bill Parcells

# "He's the Lou Gehrig of that [quarterback] position."--Wade Phillips

# "If you take everything in consideration, he's the best to play the position. . . . I think you can build a strong case that he's the best to play." --Jim Fassel



A quarterback carries a team. Elway leaves with 47 game-saving drives, more than any quarterback in NFL history. That 98-yarder against Cleveland in the 1986 AFC title game was hardly a fluke. Six of his fourth-quarter rebounds came in the postseason.

A quarterback passes, but that is only a part of his job. A good and efficient passer isn't by definition a good quarterback. Only Miami's Dan Marino has thrown for more yards than Elway. Only Marino and Tarkenton have thrown for more touchdowns. Neither Marino nor Tarkenton has won it all. Marino made it to only one Super Bowl.

A quarterback inspires. In Elway's case, he awes. Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw won four Super Bowls apiece.

. . . But Montana and Bradshaw had better teams, and (Otto) Graham played in the days before playoff tournaments required more than one victory to reach the title game. None of them threw as far or ran as well or loomed as large as Elway, who was expected to win from the start and rarely let anyone down. Nobody ever scrambled and threw off balance like Elway.

Of all the attributes that characterize Elway, Marino hits on the one that he most admires, the one that puts him over the top: "His ability to create on his own. The one thing that goes with John is his ability to come back and bring a team up from defeat. It's something very special that a lot of players don't have.

No quarterback ever had more ways to beat you by himself than Elway. He never had Jerry Rice or a Steel Curtain and only recently got his Franco Harris and Tony Dorsett.

While other quarterbacks deserve to be revered, Elway was the one most to be feared."


# "John Elway is the Michael Jordan of the NFL. You expect every one of Jordan's shots to go in the basket, and you expect every one of John's passes to be something special."--Joe Theisman, former Redskins QB and ESPN Analyst, qtd. in Latimer's John Elway: Armed and Dangerous

# Says Marty Schottenheimer, who coached Montana late in his career and lost 15 games to Elway: 'All things being equal, John may have been the best because of the ability to improvise and the ability to do all those different things.' "

# "The thing that was so impressive to me was the concentration level and the poise in thriving on pressure. He knew, he believed that he was so prepared, so physically in shape, that if he was put in that situation, he would win. And that's why, as Pat just said, I believe he's the best quarterback ever to play the game."--Mike Shanahan

# "[Elway is] extremely well-trained. He makes great use of his legs. I've been impressed when he's had to scramble and then he has to come to a position of throwing. When he's rolled out and regained his position, that's when you see the fundamentals come into play, because he seldom over-strides. And it's easy to over-stride, after all that moving. But he comes back into control and regains that rhythm."--Bart Starr



But, whoever you choose to put on the 'best ever' list, Joe Montana or no Joe Montana, clearly, John Elway is on there, too. . . .

I don't think there are 10 who can play the game the way it's set up to be played. There's Brett Favre and Steve Young, obviously, and Elway and Dan Marino. Elway and Marino make an interesting pair; they sort of belong together. They were both number one draft picks in the same year, and they've both been great for a long time.

Now, I don't think Elway needed to win those two Super Bowls to prove that he's a great quarterback, but the fact is, now he can say he's done everything there is to do in the game. He's done it all.

Dan Marino's what I call a 'Yeah, but . . .' guy. As great as he is and as great as he's been, people will always say, 'Yeah, but he never won a Super Bowl.' I think Marino's going to have to live with that for a long time.

People used to talk about all the Super Bowls Elway lost. Well, I called a few of those games, and what people seem to forget is that those teams weren't that good. John Elway was the sole reason why those Bronco teams were playing in the Super Bowl. He was the closest thing to a one-man gang I've ever seen. Elway absolutely thrived under pressure. When you got down to the end of the game and his team was behind, he knew what to do. He was one of the few quarterbacks to play the game who really knew the game. He knew what to do, how to move the ball, how to save time. And he relished those decisions.

A lot of people say they want the ball to take the last shot, but there's not a lot of them who really want it.

John Elway wanted the ball.


# "I've seen every quarterback ever produced of note--Sid Luckman, Sammy Baugh, Johnny Unitas--and nobody impressed me as much as John Elway, especially his ability to come from behind. He's the best two-minute quarterback I've ever seen. He's the all-time comeback king."--Art Modell

# "Here's another great athlete most people don't think of : John Elway. ... And the funny thing with John is he looks all awkward and pigeon-toed and gimpy, but he can run. I'm like everyone else. I watch him take off and I'm afraid his knees are going to buckle. But he can move. ... Over the years people have compared me to John because we both have strong arms and we both make things happen on the field. I'm flattered by the comparison. John's one of the greatest quarterbacks to ever play the game."--Brett Favre

# "John Elway had raw star quality. . . . And his arm was a fearsome weapon of mass production. . . . John Elway is a player."--Clay Latimer

# "If anyone had any doubts about John being ranked up there with the best that have ever played this game, then the last two Super Bowls should have washed all of that away. He had proven that he could win the biggest games of them all, so there was nothing left to prove. He has done it all."--Dan Reeves


-----

[B]And one from a couple persons who ought to know:

# "Number Seven is a bad dude. I mean a really bad dude."--Rod Smith

# "My hero? I guess that would have to be Number Seven. I see him everyday, and I see how he handles everything. I talk to John all of the time, and he's been a model for me."--Terrell Davis

-----

http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/existence/Ewyrem.html

-----

Lonestar
06-05-2008, 04:39 PM
You could not be more wrong if you tried.

Favre played all of ONE season longer then Elway. And take into account that Favre's first year he rode the bench the entire way barring two games.

Elway was more athletic, but so what? He was more likely to do things with his feet, which is fine and all but when you start to talk about the very last line of play a QB should make I find it humorous.

Favre played in the WCO, but let's be honest, the scheme didn't matter. The Packers always had a lot of big passing plays because of the way Favre played.

Other things to take into consideration about the two.

Favre may have taken more risks, but they apparently where worth it because he had a higher QB rating then Elway did.

Favre threw 142 more TDs then Elway did. He threw 62 more TDs then Elway. That is worth it as far as I am concerned.

Elway never threw for four thousand yards except once. Favre did it five times. Favre had a career completion percentage of 61.4. Elway had a career completion percentage of 56.9. Favre managed to do with with over 1k more attempted passes then Elway.

Elway only had three seasons in which he threw twice as many TDs as he did INTs. Favre did this five times. Favre threw for 10k more yards then Elway did, while only playing one more season then Elway did. Which, as I noted previously barely counts because he played two games his first season.

Brett Favre was a better QB then Elway.

GB was smart enough to tailor the team around Farve..Dan reeve s certainly was not and consider he played a BIG chunk of his career under ex RB dannyboy I'm surprised he got them to any Super bowls while he was a coach.. must have been the mikey factor when he was QB coach and OC..

I had a Friend that was Packers fans he opened my eyes to how great a QB he was and told me before John even retired that Brett was going to own all the QB records at the time I laughed at him, thinking no one was as good as John. When John retired I started watching Farve and for many years had him on my FF team.. That SOB won me a lot of games..

Farve and John were both gunslingers, had cannon arms and when the chips were down both managed to win games they should not have..

I'd trade John for Farve and vice versa in a heart beat..

Anyone that can't see how much they were alike is a true and blind homer..

lex
06-05-2008, 04:40 PM
# "John Elway is the master of the inconceivable pass thrown to the unreachable spot."--Pat Summerall, FOX Analyst and Former NY Giant

This was the one that jumped out to me. I keep mentioning the MNF game vs the Bears in 1988. You guys have to get your hands on it (I can hook you up with a guy if you really want to get your hands on it via PM). But theres a lot of vintage Elway in that one game and much of it has been forgotten. In particular, there was one play where Elway was scrambling to his right nearing the sidelines when he sees a WR downfield. There was a DB infront of him and behind him. It was a tricky throw. He had to throw it soft enough to drop it behind of the DB infront the WR but hard enough for it to get there before the WR behind him jars the ball loose. Elway as he is going out of bounds throws it sidearmed but more like 3/4 underhanded and feathered it in behind the first DB but planted in the guys breast plate so the DB behind the WR couldnt jar the ball loose. It was like a 30-40 yard pass. Absolutely incredible.

lex
06-05-2008, 04:48 PM
GB was smart enough to tailor the team around Farve..Dan reeve s certainly was not and consider he played a BIG chunk of his career under ex RB dannyboy I'm surprised he got them to any Super bowls while he was a coach.. must have been the mikey factor when he was QB coach and OC..

I had a Friend that was Packers fans he opened my eyes to how great a QB he was and told me before John even retired that Brett was going to own all the QB records at the time I laughed at him, thinking no one was as good as John. When John retired I started watching Farve and for many years had him on my FF team.. That SOB won me a lot of games..

Farve and John were both gunslingers, had cannon arms and when the chips were down both managed to win games they should not have..

I'd trade John for Farve and vice versa in a heart beat..

Anyone that can't see how much they were alike is a true and blind homer..

Not if you value someone who didnt throw a big INT (Elway) with the season on the line vs someone who did (Favre). Saying that both brought teams back to win games is like saying Bradlee Van Pelt and Dan Marino once played QB. Sorry but Favres meltdown in winnable games are too much to ignore considering those types of games were when John thrived.

Lonestar
06-05-2008, 04:50 PM
Puts him to shame? I'm sorry but 1st place in career victories doesn't put 2nd place "to shame"

Elway doesn't just have two SB championships but 5 AFC championships to go with it.

Look at how Elway's #'s changed after Shanny became HC. He was being held back by Reeves, and Wade Phillips.

If Elway had played in a QB-friendly system his whole career it would be a different story.


I have always maintained that dannyboy killed John with his run twice and then ask John to haul his ass out of the fire on each first down..

Had mikey been in town instead he would have tailored the scheme to play to Johns positives.. we would have still been run first but it would not have still been the holy grail that is would have run twice and then give it to John to have to force a play to get a 1st down....

I think all of those records that Marino had would have been Johns.. thus Brett taking the records from John instead of Marino..

Any way you look at it those are 3 might fine QBs almost all playing at the same time..

lex
06-05-2008, 04:52 PM
I have always maintained that dannyboy killed John with his run twice and then ask John to haul his ass out of the fire on each first down..

Had mikey been in town instead he would have tailored the scheme to play to Johns positives.. we would have still been run first but it would not have still been the holy grail that is would have run twice and then give it to John to have to force a play to get a 1st down....

I think all of those records that Marino had would have been Johns.. thus Brett taking the records from John instead of Marino..
Any way you look at it those are 3 might fine QBs almost all playing at the same time..

Very nice. I think career-wise, youre right. Elways would have been better but I really doubt Elway would have had seasons that matched those few stellar seasons Marino had. Marino at his best was unbelievable...an unmatched passer. But careerwise, I think you have a point on Johns numbers. And the stats Ive cited previously actually support your observation.

Lonestar
06-05-2008, 05:06 PM
Very nice. I think career-wise, youre right. Elways would have been better but I really doubt Elway would have had seasons that matched those few stellar seasons Marino had. Marino at his best was unbelievable...an unmatched passer. But careerwise, I think you have a point on Johns numbers. And the stats Ive cited previously actually support your observation.

Yet the MIA offense was built around Marino had a great OLINE and for much of the time had better RB's as DEN had but they did not use them either .. IT was Marino's game to win or lose..

For the most part GBs game was alot like DENs no support for the QB's the WRs they had Farve made them.

Had John had the WR's that Dan had there is no doubt in my mind he would have owned all of the records that Bret just broke..


Remember folks Dan did not like John they barely tolerated each other, Dan dissed him by drafting that ass clown from UCLA tommy nobody, and then John was thinking of retirement before Pat stepped in a nd fired dannyboy..

The team was not QB friendly was primarily a defensive team with a great QB..

I loved the guy but would have loved to have Farve just as much..

Just think what Farve or John could have done in DALLAS all world OLINE and RB, that is absolutely scary..

scott.475
06-05-2008, 05:12 PM
Brett probably took as many records from Dan as from John. I honestly don't think John would have ever gotten too close to Marino's passsing records...that just is not the kind of QB he was. The following stat is almost unbelievable, but very telling: Dan Marino rushed for only 87 yards (not a typo) in a 17 year career! One would think you could trip and fall for more than that over 17 years...he was undoubtedly the purest passing QB to ever play.

Oh, John (at retirement) held a ton of Superbowl records that Brett never will.

Magnificent Seven
06-05-2008, 05:43 PM
John Elway had many tools. He threw for over 51,000 passing yards, rushed for over 3,000 yards, caught the ball for over 61 yards and one touchdown. He punted the ball for several times.

Troy Aikman didn't have any tools except his arm.

Compare Elway and Aikman. See below.

John Elway : http://www.nfl.com/players/johnelway/careerstats?id=ELW276861

Troy Aikman: http://www.nfl.com/players/troyaikman/careerstats?id=AIK553722 (Troy Aikman didn't catch any ball)

JOHN ELWAY IS WAY BETTER THAN TROY AIKMAN! NO QUESTION ABOUT IT!

lex
06-05-2008, 06:47 PM
Brett probably took as many records from Dan as from John. I honestly don't think John would have ever gotten too close to Marino's passsing records...that just is not the kind of QB he was. The following stat is almost unbelievable, but very telling: Dan Marino rushed for only 87 yards (not a typo) in a 17 year career! One would think you could trip and fall for more than that over 17 years...he was undoubtedly the purest passing QB to ever play.

Oh, John (at retirement) held a ton of Superbowl records that Brett never will.

Yeah, Marino was such a good passer that when you watch someone like McNabb miss a receiver, I often think about the fact that the entire secondary has one eye on McNabb taking off and running leaving a WR more open than would have been the case if McNabb couldnt run...it kind of puts in perspective how great of a passer Marino was. Plus, I think about half of Marinos INTs were catchable passes that were tipped by his own guys.

I rank Elway and Marion as 1a and 1b, and it depends on the day who is 1a.

scott.475
06-05-2008, 07:31 PM
Magnificent Seven saluted himself! :laugh: :D

20yardline
06-05-2008, 08:33 PM
Troy Aikman (Photos) and John Elway (Photos) were two of the best quarterbacks to come out of the 1980s. Aikman was the first overall selection in 1989 and led the Cowboys to three Super Bowl titles. He was enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2006. Elway was the first overall selection of the Baltimore Colts in 1983, but played his entire career with the Broncos. Elway ended his career in style with back-to-back Super Bowl wins and was a member of the 2004 Hall of Fame class.

But who was the best?

NFL.com editors and football enthusiasts Adam Rank and Jim Reineking try to answer that question over instant messenger in NFL.com's "Instant Debate."

NFL Adam (3:52:29 PM): The knock against Troy Aikman has long been that he was surrounded by great talent, as if that makes him less of a quarterback. That actually had a negative impact on his numbers. Aikman never posted the passing numbers of some of the other great quarterbacks in NFL history because that was not the way his offense was designed. The Cowboys were methodical in their approach, and most of their drives culminated with Emmitt Smith busting through the line on a short touchdown run. But Aikman was at his best when his team needed him the most. Aikman posted a 104.3 passer rating during the playoffs (a number bested only by Bart Starr) from 1992-1995, when his team won three Super Bowls in four years. To me, he was the best of his generation.

Rhino (4:01:24 PM): The case against John Elway would be that it took a talented running back such as Terrell Davis to help No.7 finally get that elusive Super Bowl ring. The fact of the matter is, Elway was the winningest quarterback in NFL history until the greatest quarterback of all time (Brett Favre) finally eclipsed his career mark of 148 wins. And don't forget about those signature comeback drives. One of those fourth-quarter, come-from-behind victories has gone down as one of the most clutch performances in NFL history in what resulted in one of the greatest games ever played -- the 1986 AFC championship. Twelve years later, Elway's final game was a Super Bowl triumph, which is the way any quarterback would want to end his career. For putting up the numbers –- Elway is near the top in every major statistical category –- and for his moments of magic on the field when it mattered most, Elway should be considered as the best.

NFL Adam (4:11:23 PM): Once again, I feel that Aikman gets slighted because his teams always won. The Cowboys never trailed much during his career, and he doesn’t have that one signature moment that captures the imagination like "The Drive" or other great comebacks. When it comes to being a winner, none were bigger than Aikman. No other quarterback did more for his team than Aikman. He sacrificed his own personal statistics to make sure that his team won. You have to image that, deep down, Aikman would have liked to have been one of those gun slinging quarterbacks who threw the ball all over the field and put up huge numbers like some of his fellow quarterbacks. The fact that he played so unselfishly on great teams and ended up with more Super Bowl titles than all of the quarterbacks from his era should not be viewed as a coincidence.

Rhino (4:17:34 PM): If you don't want to discredit Aikman for playing on some great teams, then why do you want to penalize Elway for playing on some bad teams? If you look at the rosters of the Broncos during his Super Bowl losses, the roster isn't a "who's who," but rather, "who the heck is that?" I challenge any NFL fan to try to remember some of the running backs who played with Elway during the early part of his career. Elway put up huge passing yards because he had to. There was nobody else there to help. When you talk about a guy who made a grilled chicken salad out of chicken, umm, stuff, Elway certainly was the guy.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8089c211&template=with-video&confirm=true

I find it hard to believe that this is even a debate. Troy Aikman is not even in the same league as John Elway and should not have been a first ballot Hall of Famer.

When Elway had inferior talent, he still won, bringing 3 teams to the Super Bowl. When Aikman had inferior talent at the end of his career, he was horrible.

I do not even rank Troy Aikman in the top 20 QB's of all time and John Elway (http://www.20yardline.com/component/option,com_openwiki/Itemid,155/id,john_elway/) is in my opinion the greatest of all time and is at least in the top 5 of most NFL experts.

Npba900
06-05-2008, 09:54 PM
You could not be more wrong if you tried.

Favre played all of ONE season longer then Elway. And take into account that Favre's first year he rode the bench the entire way barring two games.

Elway was more athletic, but so what? He was more likely to do things with his feet, which is fine and all but when you start to talk about the very last line of play a QB should make I find it humorous.

Favre played in the WCO, but let's be honest, the scheme didn't matter. The Packers always had a lot of big passing plays because of the way Favre played.

Other things to take into consideration about the two.

Favre may have taken more risks, but they apparently where worth it because he had a higher QB rating then Elway did.

Favre threw 142 more TDs then Elway did. He threw 62 more TDs then Elway. That is worth it as far as I am concerned.

Elway never threw for four thousand yards except once. Favre did it five times. Favre had a career completion percentage of 61.4. Elway had a career completion percentage of 56.9. Favre managed to do with with over 1k more attempted passes then Elway.

Elway only had three seasons in which he threw twice as many TDs as he did INTs. Favre did this five times. Favre threw for 10k more yards then Elway did, while only playing one more season then Elway did. Which, as I noted previously barely counts because he played two games his first season.

Brett Favre was a better QB then Elway.

I wouldn't go that far. But hey, I'll admit I am bias. However, imagine Farves first 12 years in the NFL playing behind the OL and journeymen RB and WR's (3 Amigos---come on now) that Elway had. I highly doubted that Farve would have thrown for 4k yds five consecutive years running. After all, Farve would have been for Reeves. Also, its highly doubtful even Farve could have taken the Elway teams to the SB in 87, 88, and 90.

Poet
06-06-2008, 12:48 AM
Who was the person who said that the debate used to be only about Elway and Montana? Dan Marino has a strong case too. You can sit there and argue that if Elway threw the ball as much as Favre that he would have done the same. But, you don't KNOW it. In fact, I doubt it. Because the more you throw the ball the harder it is to put up those numbers. Elway played on run first teams. That made his job easier, if you want to even debate that then don't respond and waste my time. Brett Favre is one of the few QBs that could throw the ball as much as that and still win games.

And for the people who point out that Favre threw some back breaking INTs, so did Elway. When Favre retired people started talking about where he ranked up, and a lot of people had him over Elway for the exact same reasons I do. You are not the greatest QB of all time when you only complete 56 percent of your passes. You are not the great QB of all time when you can rarely muster a two to one TD INT ratio. You are not a better QB then someone when they throw OVER ONE HUNDRED MORE TD PASSES THEN YOU ONLY PLAYING ONE MORE YEAR.

topscribe
06-06-2008, 01:18 AM
Who was the person who said that the debate used to be only about Elway and Montana? Dan Marino has a strong case too. You can sit there and argue that if Elway threw the ball as much as Favre that he would have done the same. But, you don't KNOW it. In fact, I doubt it. Because the more you throw the ball the harder it is to put up those numbers. Elway played on run first teams. That made his job easier, if you want to even debate that then don't respond and waste my time. Brett Favre is one of the few QBs that could throw the ball as much as that and still win games.

And for the people who point out that Favre threw some back breaking INTs, so did Elway. When Favre retired people started talking about where he ranked up, and a lot of people had him over Elway for the exact same reasons I do. You are not the greatest QB of all time when you only complete 56 percent of your passes. You are not the great QB of all time when you can rarely muster a two to one TD INT ratio. You are not a better QB then someone when they throw OVER ONE HUNDRED MORE TD PASSES THEN YOU ONLY PLAYING ONE MORE YEAR.

You are still stuck on stats. When you do that, you can veer way off the
mark. That is why I entered this post (http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=268101&postcount=58). It contains comments from people,
each who have forgotten more about football than you and I together will
ever know.

I suggest you read through it carefully. You might even go to the site to
which I linked in that post: It has quite a few more citations in it regarding
Elway.

The best way to determine where a player stands in history is to ask those
who know about football, who have witnessed them all within their lifetimes.
Not stats. Among those people, Elway is far and away the favorite as G.O.A.T.

-----

Cleveland Rocks
06-06-2008, 01:54 AM
and (Otto) Graham played in the days before playoff tournaments required more than one victory to reach the title game. None of them threw as far or ran as well or loomed as large as Elway, who was expected to win from the start and rarely let anyone down.

I don't think so.

Name another QB whose career winning percentage was within the 80 - 90 %range. (105-17-4 Career Record as Starter).

Poet
06-06-2008, 09:58 AM
You are still stuck on stats. When you do that, you can veer way off the
mark. That is why I entered this post (http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=268101&postcount=58). It contains comments from people,
each who have forgotten more about football than you and I together will
ever know.

I suggest you read through it carefully. You might even go to the site to
which I linked in that post: It has quite a few more citations in it regarding
Elway.

The best way to determine where a player stands in history is to ask those
who know about football, who have witnessed them all within their lifetimes.
Not stats. Among those people, Elway is far and away the favorite as G.O.A.T.

-----

No, stats are the best way to go. Funny thing is, when it is good for the argument people love to quote stats for their player, and when another player beats them out on stats they start getting quotes for their guy. Seriously, quotes? I mean, I can google Favre's name and have infi love fest quotes for the guy.

I can find Packer fans older then you who will tell me that Favre is the best QB of all time. Subjective is a word that very much fits that. I can find a lot of non Packer fans who think he is the best too. Once again, subjective will work out just fine for that as well. However, when you pull out the old stat sheet, cold hard FACTS prevail.

lex
06-06-2008, 10:04 AM
Who was the person who said that the debate used to be only about Elway and Montana? Dan Marino has a strong case too.
Actually, Marino and Elway have a case more than Montana. Why is it that people harp on Terrell Davis being a system RB and not Joe Montana being a system QB?


You can sit there and argue that if Elway threw the ball as much as Favre that he would have done the same. But, you don't KNOW it. In fact, I doubt it. Because the more you throw the ball the harder it is to put up those numbers. Elway played on run first teams. That made his job easier, if you want to even debate that then don't respond and waste my time. Brett Favre is one of the few QBs that could throw the ball as much as that and still win games.

This is pure poppycock. You obviously know nothing about how football was played in the 80s. You obviously arent familiar enough with what youre talking about to even comment. Running on 1st and 2nd down doesnt make a QBs job easier. Theres a difference between passing on 3rd and long vs 3rd and short or on 1st and 2nd down. Its actually easier to pass on 1st and 2nd down since its typically less certain that its a passing down. So actually for much of Elways career he was passing when there was a high degree of difficulty and still thrived. He didnt cheese a lot of passing yards because Denver could actually run the ball later too.


And for the people who point out that Favre threw some back breaking INTs, so did Elway.
What INT did Elway ever throw that compares to what weve seen with Favre? In games where Denver could have realistically been competitive, it didnt really happen.



When Favre retired people started talking about where he ranked up, and a lot of people had him over Elway for the exact same reasons I do. You are not the greatest QB of all time when you only complete 56 percent of your passes.
Once again, Elway didnt play his whole career in the WCO and on top of that many of his pass attempts were with a high degree of difficulty. Put another way, there was not one play Favre could make that Elway couldnt. There were, however, plays that Elway could make that Favre couldnt.


You are not the great QB of all time when you can rarely muster a two to one TD INT ratio. You are not a better QB then someone when they throw OVER ONE HUNDRED MORE TD PASSES THEN YOU ONLY PLAYING ONE MORE YEAR.

Once again, the proliferation of the WCO and the emphasis of the QB rating has affected the way people view statistics. This last statement is pure WCO biased.

BroncoJoe
06-06-2008, 10:14 AM
Generally, I think these type of conversations (who's the GOAT) are stoopid. Favre was a great QB. Montana, Marino and who ever else you want to bring up were all great.

Elway was great.

It is impossible to say who the greatest was. I can say without hesitation that Elway's numbers in GB would be better than what they were here. Favre's would be less in Denver as well, but that's not the case.

I'm a Broncos fan, so since they were all great, I view Elway as the greatest. If Favre was here instead of Elway? I'd view him as the greatest.

Poet
06-06-2008, 10:16 AM
Actually, Marino and Elway have a case more than Montana. Why is it that people harp on Terrell Davis being a system RB and not Joe Montana being a system QB?



This is pure poppycock. You obviously know nothing about how football was played in the 80s. You obviously arent familiar enough with what youre talking about to even comment. Running on 1st and 2nd down doesnt make a QBs job easier. Theres a difference between passing on 3rd and long vs 3rd and short or on 1st and 2nd down. Its actually easier to pass on 1st and 2nd down since its typically less certain that its a passing down. So actually for much of Elways career he was passing when there was a high degree of difficulty and still thrived. He didnt cheese a lot of passing yards because Denver could actually run the ball later too.


What INT did Elway ever throw that compares to what weve seen with Favre? In games where Denver could have realistically been competitive, it didnt really happen.



Once again, Elway didnt play his whole career in the WCO and on top of that many of his pass attempts were with a high degree of difficulty. Put another way, there was not one play Favre could make that Elway couldnt. There were, however, plays that Elway could make that Favre couldnt.



Once again, the proliferation of the WCO and the emphasis of the QB rating has affected the way people view statistics. This last statement is pure WCO biased.

How is it that they have more of a case then Montana? I mean, Montana put up really good numbers, was on four SB winning teams, and as a Bengal fan I know all too well how good he was when the game was on the line. Hey, oddly enough you guys praise Elway for that same thing. Hmmm..


Running on first and second down makes the QB's life easier when you get to the point where you can run the ball on third down and pick up the damn first down regardless. I am going to give you credit and assume I don't have to explain to you what the play action pass is and how that makes the QB's job easier as well.

You mean to tell me that Elway never threw game losing INTS? Seeing how he threw a lot in his career I find that you are even asking me that question hysterical.


What passing plays could Elway make that Favre could not? Seeing how Favre has the higher completion percent and QB rating it would appear to be the OTHER way.


Funny that you mention bias, your posts reek of yours for Elway.:coffee:

Poet
06-06-2008, 10:17 AM
Generally, I think these type of conversations (who's the GOAT) are stoopid. Favre was a great QB. Montana, Marino and who ever else you want to bring up were all great.

Elway was great.

It is impossible to say who the greatest was. I can say without hesitation that Elway's numbers in GB would be better than what they were here. Favre's would be less in Denver as well, but that's not the case.

I'm a Broncos fan, so since they were all great, I view Elway as the greatest. If Favre was here instead of Elway? I'd view him as the greatest.

Yeah, but the G.O.A.T. conversations are really fun.

At least you are honest about it.

lex
06-06-2008, 10:26 AM
How is it that they have more of a case then Montana? I mean, Montana put up really good numbers, was on four SB winning teams, and as a Bengal fan I know all too well how good he was when the game was on the line. Hey, oddly enough you guys praise Elway for that same thing. Hmmm..
This was already answered.


Running on first and second down makes the QB's life easier when you get to the point where you can run the ball on third down and pick up the damn first down regardless. I am going to give you credit and assume I don't have to explain to you what the play action pass is and how that makes the QB's job easier as well.

Like I said earlier, theres a difference between passing on 3rd and 7 vs 3rd and 1. But the way Reeves used to do it was he would run a lot on 1st and 2nd and this was at time when our running game wasnt what it was later. So Elway did a lot of passing on 3rd and longs. And unlike Favre, Elway didnt have the benefit of doing a lot of passing on 1st and 2nd downs. He also didnt chees a lot of yards on screens as much either since Denver could actually run the ball later in his career.


You mean to tell me that Elway never threw game losing INTS? Seeing how he threw a lot in his career I find that you are even asking me that question hysterical.

You made a blanket statement. I asked you to give me an example and you come back with a rhetorical question because you have no answer for the question I asked you. Nice try.



What passing plays could Elway make that Favre could not? Seeing how Favre has the higher completion percent and QB rating it would appear to be the OTHER way.

Weve already covered this. Yes, we know Elway didnt spend his entire career in the WCO.



Funny that you mention bias, your posts reek of yours for Elway.:coffee:

Yeah, Im so biased that elsewhere in the thread I said I have Elway and Marino as 1a and 1b and who is 1a depends on the day.

The perception of Favre is driven by hype and the way the WCO affects the way people view statistics.

Lonestar
06-06-2008, 10:47 AM
You are still stuck on stats. When you do that, you can veer way off the
mark. That is why I entered this post (http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=268101&postcount=58). It contains comments from people,
each who have forgotten more about football than you and I together will
ever know.

I suggest you read through it carefully. You might even go to the site to
which I linked in that post: It has quite a few more citations in it regarding
Elway.

The best way to determine where a player stands in history is to ask those
who know about football, who have witnessed them all within their lifetimes.
Not stats. Among those people, Elway is far and away the favorite as G.O.A.T.

-----

I suspect many of these same folks will have glowing things about Brett also when asked about his HOF induction..

That is not taking anything away from John merely stating they are both very unique players and I'd take either or of them for my team..

Lonestar
06-06-2008, 11:33 AM
This was already answered.



Like I said earlier, theres a difference between passing on 3rd and 7 vs 3rd and 1. But the way Reeves used to do it was he would run a lot on 1st and 2nd and this was at time when our running game wasnt what it was later. So Elway did a lot of passing on 3rd and longs. And unlike Favre, Elway didnt have the benefit of doing a lot of passing on 1st and 2nd downs. He also didnt chees a lot of yards on screens as much either since Denver could actually run the ball later in his career.



You made a blanket statement. I asked you to give me an example and you come back with a rhetorical question because you have no answer for the question I asked you. Nice try.




Weve already covered this. Yes, we know Elway didnt spend his entire career in the WCO.




Yeah, Im so biased that elsewhere in the thread I said I have Elway and Marino as 1a and 1b and who is 1a depends on the day.

The perception of Favre is driven by hype and the way the WCO affects the way people view statistics.


BTW I'm not so sure that either DEN or GB played the WCO like SFO did more of a hybrid that was adapted to the QB, RB, TE and OLINE that we had compared to SFO.

Where Walsh saw the WCO forward pass as more of a "long hand off" to his RB's. Both John and Brett were abit more vertical with their lack of great receiving RB's. Walsh used the WCO pass to set up the running game verses mikey using the running game to set up the passing game.. Subtle differences, but different all the same..

I think you could plug John, Brett, Joe and Steve into anyone of those offenses and probably not miss much of a beat..

lex
06-06-2008, 12:15 PM
BTW I'm not so sure that either DEN or GB played the WCO like SFO did more of a hybrid that was adapted to the QB, RB, TE and OLINE that we had compared to SFO.

This is true but GB ran a much version that was a lot closer to what Bill Walsh did than what you saw with Denver. Obviously, since the time Shanahan has coached in Denver, Denver has been good at running the ball.


Where Walsh saw the WCO forward pass as more of a "long hand off" to his RB's. Both John and Brett were abit more vertical with their lack of great receiving RB's. Walsh used the WCO pass to set up the running game verses mikey using the running game to set up the passing game.. Subtle differences, but different all the same..

Actually, Green Bay has been the best team at running screens for some time now.



I think you could plug John, Brett, Joe and Steve into anyone of those offenses and probably not miss much of a beat..

Id take 1) John; 2) Steve; 3) Joe; 4) Brett. Steve was actually a better QB than Favre he just didnt have the longevity in that offense. But Id take Steve Young at his best over any of those 4 save Elway.

scott.475
06-06-2008, 12:22 PM
For all his records, I am not sure I have seen a mainstream top 10 list that has Marino in the top 5. Not saying I have seen them all, but I really can't think of any I have seen that rank him that high as an OVERALL QB.

lex
06-06-2008, 12:26 PM
For all his records, I am not sure I have seen a mainstream top 10 list that has Marino in the top 5. Not saying I have seen them all, but I really can't think of any I have seen that rank him that high as an OVERALL QB.

Thats because many are brainwashed into obsessing about the number of championships and completely look past the fact that the 49ers back in the day had better personnel than practically any team they played in the SB...but they give Joe credit. If youre Dan Marino and you spend your prime years carrying the load for a pathetic defense, you're SOL because if your defense is that bad, youre only going so far. And in reality, if you look at it, its often been the case that the teams winning SBs had the better defense and running games.

Lonestar
06-06-2008, 12:26 PM
This is true but GB ran a much version that was a lot closer to what Bill Walsh did than what you saw with Denver. Obviously, since the time Shanahan has coached in Denver, Denver has been good at running the ball.



Actually, Green Bay has been the best team at running screens for some time now.




Id take 1) John; 2) Steve; 3) Joe; 4) Brett. Steve was actually a better QB than Favre he just didnt have the longevity in that offense. But Id take Steve Young at his best over any of those 4 save Elway.


Well perhaps your correct but those games I saw Brett play and As I mentioned before I had him as my FF QB as well as Amman Green and one of his WR whom I can't remember now.

I do not remember them playing the WCO like Walsh did they were much more vertical. They also threw to there TE alot. Walsh rarely ran his RB's as compared to GB and even more so Mikey.. Walsh used them as long hand off to superb RBs that made alot of YAC..

BTW GB has been a team I have followed since Lombardi was there and even more so since the ICE BOWL. They have been my "NFC" team almost since I can remember.. So have watched alot of their games when ever they did not conflict with the Broncos..

lex
06-06-2008, 12:35 PM
Well perhaps your correct but those games I saw Brett play and As I mentioned before I had him as my FF QB as well as Amman Green and one of his WR whom I can't remember now.

I do not remember them playing the WCO like Walsh did they were much more vertical. They also threw to there TE alot. Walsh rarely ran his RB's as compared to GB and even more so Mikey.. Walsh used them as long hand off to superb RBs that made alot of YAC..

BTW GB has been a team I have followed since Lombardi was there and even more so since the ICE BOWL. They have been my "NFC" team almost since I can remember.. So have watched alot of their games when ever they did not conflict with the Broncos..

You should realize that just because you didnt see the deep ball when Walsh was coach, it doesnt mean there wasnt a deep option in play design. You gotta remember that Montana didnt exactly have the strongest arm. In fact, it was kind of weak. So throwing deep may have been a function of Montanas limitations more than Walsh's philosophy. At its core, it was created to utilize quick, low risk passes so to not rely too heavily on the offensive line to open up holes for the running game or pass protect. So, accordingly, the offense features a lot of pass routes and quick step drops with that in mind...but that doesnt mean its exclusively slants.

Lonestar
06-06-2008, 12:44 PM
You should realize that just because you didnt see the deep ball when Walsh was coach, it doesnt mean there wasnt a deep option in play design. You gotta remember that Montana didnt exactly have the strongest arm. In fact, it was kind of weak. So throwing deep may have been a function of Montanas limitations more than Walsh's philosophy. At its core, it was created to utilize quick, low risk passes so to not rely too heavily on the offensive line to open up holes for the running game or pass protect. So, accordingly, the offense features a lot of pass routes and quick step drops with that in mind...but that doesnt mean its exclusively slants.


we are gonna have to agree to disagree I know what the WCO is and how it is run..

Have watched it for years in the various permutations..

Walsh's version was the original short passes almost impossible to defend because their are 5-6 options for the defense to deal with so there would be an open guys regardless of how good the Defense was. The others adapted it to meet the abilities and limitations of their personnel..
Also short passes are alot more probable to be caught because thy are higher percentage pass.

atwater27
06-06-2008, 01:18 PM
I'd take Steve Young in his prime over any QB I have ever seen play, as the best weapon ever at QB. Brilliant, left handed guy with deadly accuracy, a strong arm and the running style of John Riggins.

Lonestar
06-06-2008, 01:29 PM
I'd take Steve Young in his prime over any QB I have ever seen play, as the best weapon ever at QB. Brilliant, left handed guy with deadly accuracy, a strong arm and the running style of John Riggins.


A great QB that got stuck behind a legend alot like maddox would have been..



















;)

;)

;)

;)

:lol:

:lol:

topscribe
06-06-2008, 02:00 PM
Id take 1) John; 2) Steve; 3) Joe; 4) Brett. Steve was actually a better QB than Favre he just didnt have the longevity in that offense. But Id take Steve Young at his best over any of those 4 save Elway.

I have to agree on all counts.

I do remember one interview years ago of an assistant coach who had coached
Steve Young and was now coaching Elway. (I don't now remember just who
that coach was.) He was asked to compare Young and Elway: Which one, in
his mind, was better? His answer: "There is only one John Elway."

-----

Lonestar
06-06-2008, 02:02 PM
I have to agree on all counts.

I do remember one interview years ago of an assistant coach who had coached
Steve Young and was now coaching Elway. (I don't now remember just who
that coach was.) He was asked to compare Young and Elway: Which one, in
his mind, was better? His answer: "There is only one John Elway."

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your a homer!!!!!!!!!!

topscribe
06-06-2008, 02:08 PM
I suspect many of these same folks will have glowing things about Brett also when asked about his HOF induction..

That is not taking anything away from John merely stating they are both very unique players and I'd take either or of them for my team..

If they do make such comments at the HOF ceremony, I will not place as
much stock in them. Most of these comments were not at Elway's HOF
induction. There is a difference.

-----

topscribe
06-06-2008, 02:09 PM
your a homer!!!!!!!!!!

You've been around for a while, you old fossil.

Do you remember that interview?

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Lonestar
06-06-2008, 02:11 PM
If they do make such comments at the HOF ceremony, I will not place as
much stock in them. Most of these comments were not at Elway's HOF
induction. There is a difference.

-----

Let me quote my post..

I suspect many of these same folks will have glowing things about Brett also when asked about his HOF induction..

Key word is about not AT..

Lonestar
06-06-2008, 02:12 PM
You've been around for a while, you old fossil.

Do you remember that interview?

-----

I can't remember what I had for breakfast can you, you old geezer your older than I am..


Because this forum is a lot more mature than many of the others perhaps we need an ensure smile

topscribe
06-06-2008, 02:22 PM
Let me quote my post..

I suspect many of these same folks will have glowing things about Brett also when asked about his HOF induction..

Key word is about not AT..

That may be. The Pack is my boyhood team, and some Green and Gold can be
found here and there in my psyche. So I have been a big fan of Favre's by
default. And I think Favre has justified my high opinion of him.

But I have never seen where a QB has thrown such fear into an opponent as
Elway did, especially when he had the ball toward the end of the game . . .

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