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View Full Version : Elvis' interview with jim rome....uh oh ?



T.K.O.
06-21-2010, 01:07 PM
http://www.1043thefan.com/channels/audioOnDemand/Story.aspx?ID=1243625

Northman
06-21-2010, 01:11 PM
Thanks for the link TKO, checking it out now.

Tned
06-21-2010, 01:17 PM
I'm in a meeting and can't listen. Can someone give a synopsis.

T.K.O.
06-21-2010, 01:20 PM
so far elvis talked about the meltdown last year said "he doesnt really know what happened after the bye week but the team just did'nt get it done"
now saying he will be a bronco next year,may or may not show up for camp,realizes it's a business and the broncos are looking out for the broncos but he is dissappointed that no deal has been done.....wants to stay a bronco ,but if they dont want to pay him somebody wil....

BigBroncLove
06-21-2010, 01:22 PM
Also has been talking about he doesn't understand why people still fixate on teh 5'11 stat. They don't concentrate on Julius Peppers at 6'6 when he gets his sacks. Said, "It was a fair question when he was drafted but to he feels his proved himself now and to continually talk about doesn't make sense to him."

T.K.O.
06-21-2010, 01:23 PM
talked to marshall last night.....happy for brandon.
on tebow....i now see why he dominated in college,work ethic is off the charts....the guy is the kind of player you want on your team....say's
"i'm IN" on the tebow draft pick

T.K.O.
06-21-2010, 01:24 PM
"wink" is pretty amped and the whole defense is excited

T.K.O.
06-21-2010, 01:26 PM
mcD had an interview as well.....http://www.1043thefan.com/channels/audioOnDemand/Story.aspx?ID=1243638

BigBroncLove
06-21-2010, 01:27 PM
He also won't say for sure if he'll be in training camp if no deal is worked out before TC starts. He understands the business side but at the end of the day its about whats best for the Broncos and whats best for elvis. He wants to be a Bronco, he likes being a Bronco, but at this point it is about business.

Northman
06-21-2010, 01:27 PM
I'm in a meeting and can't listen. Can someone give a synopsis.


Listened to the links.

Part I: Elvis talks about how Champ and Brian are great players and mentors. Said great things about McD's coaching and intensity. Towards the end he pointed out that size has nothing to do with it. Its all about how you perform on the field and feels that he has done that.

Part II: Segment begins with Elvis saying that he was indeed forced to sign the tender but did it so he wouldnt lose money. Rome asked if the negotiations was moving along and Elvis said no. Says he is a Bronco for 2010 but doesnt see being a Bronco longterm because the team has not offered one up for him. Not sure if he will make it too TC but its still up in the air. Says he is disappointed not being locked in and wants to remain a Bronco but understands its not about loyalty in this business. Says if Denver doesnt end up paying him for his services someone else will. Also said he still talks to Marshall while he is in Miami. Says a lot of Brandon's immaturity lead to him being traded. Says Tebow's work ethic is off the charts and thinks he is a great fit for Denver and McDaniels.

Tned
06-21-2010, 01:33 PM
Listened to the links.

Part I: Elvis talks about how Champ and Brian are great players and mentors. Said great things about McD's coaching and intensity. Towards the end he pointed out that size has nothing to do with it. Its all about how you perform on the field and feels that he has done that.

Part II: Segment begins with Elvis saying that he was indeed forced to sign the tender but did it so he wouldnt lose money. Rome asked if the negotiations was moving along and Elvis said no. Says he is a Bronco for 2010 but doesnt see being a Bronco longterm because the team has not offered one up for him. Not sure if he will make it too TC but its still up in the air. Says he is disappointed not being locked in and wants to remain a Bronco but understands its not about loyalty in this business. Says if Denver doesnt end up paying him for his services someone else will. Also said he still talks to Marshall while he is in Miami. Says a lot of Brandon's immaturity lead to him being traded. Says Tebow's work ethic is off the charts and thinks he is a great fit for Denver and McDaniels.


Tned is now accepting apologies from those people that lashed out at him for saying the Broncos forced Doom to sign the tender with a threat of decreasing the tender, which in turn showed they weren't negotiating in good faith, especially since Doom had showed up to OTA's/Mini Camps.

Tned doesn't hold a grudge at those people that lashed out at him, but of course knows they will do the right thing and kneel down, kiss his ring and offer their sincere apologies.

Tned is now going to dispense with the third person references to himself....

broncofaninfla
06-21-2010, 01:36 PM
I've said it before, I think Doom is playing his last year with Denver.

Northman
06-21-2010, 01:37 PM
I've said it before, I think Doom is playing his last year with Denver.

Sadly. :tsk:

Tempus Fugit
06-21-2010, 01:43 PM
Tned is now accepting apologies from those people that lashed out at him for saying the Broncos forced Doom to sign the tender with a threat of decreasing the tender, which in turn showed they weren't negotiating in good faith, especially since Doom had showed up to OTA's/Mini Camps.

Tned doesn't hold a grudge at those people that lashed out at him, but of course knows they will do the right thing and kneel down, kiss his ring and offer their sincere apologies.

Tned is now going to dispense with the third person references to himself....

While Tned is at it, perhaps Tned could stop claiming a lack of good faith when the tender issue doesn't demonstrate such to be the case.

Tempus Fugit
06-21-2010, 01:45 PM
He also won't say for sure if he'll be in training camp if no deal is worked out before TC starts. He understands the business side but at the end of the day its about whats best for the Broncos and whats best for elvis. He wants to be a Bronco, he likes being a Bronco, but at this point it is about business.

The 30 day rule means that Dumervil will be in camp.

BigBroncLove
06-21-2010, 01:47 PM
The 30 day rule means that Dumervil will be in camp.

Camp starts Aug 1st, 30 day rule starts Aug 10th, so he doesn't need to be there at the start of TC though he will without a doubt be there eventually.

Superchop 7
06-21-2010, 01:47 PM
Superchop prefers tned in the third person.

T.K.O.
06-21-2010, 01:50 PM
i thought you could only speak of yourself in the 3rd person if you were a caveman or a reality tv show star ?:confused:
what gives?

Tempus Fugit
06-21-2010, 01:52 PM
Camp starts Aug 1st, 30 day rule starts Aug 10th, so he doesn't need to be there at the start of TC though he will without a doubt be there eventually.

Fair enough, but the start of training camp wasn't what you initially posted. You posted "training camp" in general, so I was responding to that.

Tned
06-21-2010, 01:53 PM
While Tned is at it, perhaps Tned could stop claiming a lack of good faith when the tender issue doesn't demonstrate such to be the case.

IMHO, it certainly does.

BigBroncLove
06-21-2010, 01:53 PM
Fair enough, but the start of training camp wasn't what you initially posted. You posted "training camp" in general, so I was responding to that.

I simply retransmitted in writing what was said on the audio recording. Elvis did not elaborate on it, so I did not as a matter of course.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-21-2010, 02:06 PM
I also suggest listening to Coach McD, as he addresses Elvis' situation. First part of interview is Coach McD talking about the QB situation. Coach was very positive in talking about absolutely desiring to have Elvis here long term.

http://www.1043thefan.com/channels/audioOnDemand/Story.aspx?ID=1243638

Tempus Fugit
06-21-2010, 02:26 PM
IMHO, it certainly does.

It's nice that you're now at least conceding that it's only your opinion. Of course, that invalidates your third person post.

Northman
06-21-2010, 02:30 PM
I also suggest listening to Coach McD, as he addresses Elvis' situation. First part of interview is Coach McD talking about the QB situation. Coach was very positive in talking about absolutely desiring to have Elvis here long term.

http://www.1043thefan.com/channels/audioOnDemand/Story.aspx?ID=1243638

Listened.

McD stated that Kyle is the starter unless one of the others put performs him in TC. Said Tebow "might" see playing time this year if he progresses enough to where they can contribute. Same with Quinn. McD was asked if Doom is worth the money he is asking and McD only said that Doom and his agent have been professional about how they are going about their business but whether or not Doom will remain a Bronco longterm is uncertain.

Tned
06-21-2010, 02:34 PM
It's nice that you're now at least conceding that it's only your opinion. Of course, that invalidates your third person post.

In your opinion, it invalidates it....

T.K.O.
06-21-2010, 02:39 PM
T.K.O. prefers BigBroncoLoves sweet new sig !:elefant:

BigBroncLove
06-21-2010, 02:41 PM
T.K.O. prefers BigBroncoLoves sweet new sig !:elefant:

It cut it off for space constraints :(

It's framed like a motivational poster and says...


GRAVITY
god is on our side

T.K.O.
06-21-2010, 02:50 PM
It cut it off for space constraints :(

It's framed like a motivational poster and says...


GRAVITY
god is on our side

it definately has certain "motivational" qualities !
but my motives may be less than pure......

jhildebrand
06-21-2010, 02:54 PM
My guess is Elvis will look out for his best interests just as the Broncos are looking out for their best interests. He will sit out the 8 or 10 games he is allowed to without having to forefit his accrued season. I can't say I blame the guy if he did.

T.K.O.
06-21-2010, 03:13 PM
My guess is Elvis will look out for his best interests just as the Broncos are looking out for their best interests. He will sit out the 8 or 10 games he is allowed to without having to forefit his accrued season. I can't say I blame the guy if he did.

nope.....i don't think it is in elvis' best interest to look like a malcontent.
nor do i think it's in his genetic make up to sit on the bench while his "brothers" are in the heat of battle.
i still think the broncos will give him a deal that works for both sides before TC,but even if it does'nt happen he will be making 6 times what he made last year and he loves the game too much to ride the pine over $.
he will play and play well regardless:salute:

Tempus Fugit
06-21-2010, 03:33 PM
In your opinion, it invalidates it....

Well, to be more precise, it means that there's no reason for said people to apologize to you, since nothing has changed regarding the underlying question of whether or not the bargaining is being done in good faith. Therefore, your talking of apologies is of no greater weight than it had been previously.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-21-2010, 04:01 PM
http://twitter.com/fs3142/statuses/16708938645

McD on Rome: "We absolutely desire to have Elvis Dumervil on our football team for a long time. We know what that commitment means."

fs3142
Frank Schwab

jhildebrand
06-21-2010, 04:05 PM
nope.....i don't think it is in elvis' best interest to look like a malcontent.
nor do i think it's in his genetic make up to sit on the bench while his "brothers" are in the heat of battle.
i still think the broncos will give him a deal that works for both sides before TC,but even if it does'nt happen he will be making 6 times what he made last year and he loves the game too much to ride the pine over $.
he will play and play well regardless:salute:

He may be making 6 times as much but that figure is 9 times less than what it should be.

One torn ACL or achilles or anything like that and his one shot of a big deal may be gone for good. Any agent will tell him to protect himself (and therefore the agent's rip).

Also, it would be hard to paint Elvis as a malcontent. He showed up to OTA's with no deal and practiced, he signed his tender in good faith, the Broncos are the ones who wont look too good especially considering McDaniels early in the offseason said Dumervil was a priority and would get his deal done quickly :lol:.

TXBRONC
06-21-2010, 04:05 PM
http://twitter.com/fs3142/statuses/16708938645

McD on Rome: "We absolutely desire to have Elvis Dumervil on our football team for a long time. We know what that commitment means."

fs3142
Frank Schwab

Talk is cheap.

GEM
06-21-2010, 04:06 PM
http://twitter.com/fs3142/statuses/16708938645

McD on Rome: "We absolutely desire to have Elvis Dumervil on our football team for a long time. We know what that commitment means."

fs3142
Frank Schwab

Then sign the man to a ******* contract, *******.

FFS...I have tried to error on the side of my favorite team, but this is getting ri
******* diculous! The man has done it the right way, he's been a team player, he's been a joy in the locker room. If you don't sign him...you WILL lose your locker room, numb nuts. Guys see that going the prima donna way don't work, they see that going the professional way don't work...who the hell will want to stay on this team...hell, what's the point anyways, we're tossing away all of our talent anyways. :so****ingpissed:

jhildebrand
06-21-2010, 04:10 PM
I think it speaks volumes when someone as level headed and fair as GEM posts something like ^^. My guess is A LOT of casual fans see it the same way not to mention the hardcores!

Denver has their reputation on the line. It will be hard to get back once it is lost!

GEM
06-21-2010, 04:13 PM
I think it speaks volumes when someone as level headed and fair as GEM posts something like ^^. My guess is A LOT of casual fans see it the same way not to mention the hardcores!

Denver has their reputation on the line. It will be hard to get back once it is lost!

This just really pisses me off. I know we can't over pay for him, but we can't let him walk away. Players band together, even if it is against a coach, especially one that they have only played for for a year. They don't have any loyalty to McDaniels. The guy screws Elvis over, no one on this team will trust him. Plain and simple.

Northman
06-21-2010, 04:14 PM
the Broncos are the ones who wont look too good especially considering McDaniels early in the offseason said Dumervil was a priority and would get his deal done quickly :lol:.

Oh snap.

Northman
06-21-2010, 04:15 PM
Then sign the man to a ******* contract, *******.

FFS...I have tried to error on the side of my favorite team, but this is getting ri
******* diculous! The man has done it the right way, he's been a team player, he's been a joy in the locker room. If you don't sign him...you WILL lose your locker room, numb nuts. Guys see that going the prima donna way don't work, they see that going the professional way don't work...who the hell will want to stay on this team...hell, what's the point anyways, we're tossing away all of our talent anyways. :so****ingpissed:

Tell em girl!!

Northman
06-21-2010, 04:16 PM
I think it speaks volumes when someone as level headed and fair as GEM posts something like ^^. My guess is A LOT of casual fans see it the same way not to mention the hardcores!

Denver has their reputation on the line. It will be hard to get back once it is lost!

I love when she gets angry.

1) It means it must of really taken something for her to get mad at the brass.

2) Its sexy as hell. :D

HORSEPOWER 56
06-21-2010, 04:29 PM
Then sign the man to a ******* contract, *******.

FFS...I have tried to error on the side of my favorite team, but this is getting ri
******* diculous! The man has done it the right way, he's been a team player, he's been a joy in the locker room. If you don't sign him...you WILL lose your locker room, numb nuts. Guys see that going the prima donna way don't work, they see that going the professional way don't work...who the hell will want to stay on this team...hell, what's the point anyways, we're tossing away all of our talent anyways. :so****ingpissed:

You're so sexy when you're mad! ;)

Yep, pretty much sums up my feeling, too...

GEM
06-21-2010, 04:30 PM
:laugh: I dunno about sexy....I curse like a sailor at that point of angry!

HORSEPOWER 56
06-21-2010, 04:36 PM
:laugh: I dunno about sexy....I curse like a sailor at that point of angry!

Actually, dudes love that ish...

TXBRONC
06-21-2010, 04:40 PM
I love when she gets angry.

1) It means it must of really taken something for her to get mad at the brass.

2) Its sexy as hell. :D

It's sexy until you're having to push your testicles back down into your scrotum.

GEM
06-21-2010, 04:41 PM
Actually, dudes love that ish...

Yea...as long at it's aimed at someone else and not you! :laugh: :D

TXBRONC
06-21-2010, 04:45 PM
:laugh: I dunno about sexy....I curse like a sailor at that point of angry!

Do you know these guys? :D

http://s0.ilike.com/play#Confederate+Railroad:She+Took+It+Like+A+Man:8 2479:s19058418.12842078.939.0.2.231%2Cstd_da545977 72124f8fb7815caa46c38924

GEM
06-21-2010, 04:51 PM
Do you know these guys? :D

http://s0.ilike.com/play#Confederate+Railroad:She+Took+It+Like+A+Man:8 2479:s19058418.12842078.939.0.2.231%2Cstd_da545977 72124f8fb7815caa46c38924

:laugh:!!!

dogfish
06-21-2010, 05:45 PM
http://twitter.com/fs3142/statuses/16708938645

McD on Rome: "We absolutely desire to have Elvis Dumervil on our football team for a long time. We know what that commitment means."

fs3142
Frank Schwab

"Jay Cutler is our quarterback."






:heh:

tomjonesrocks
06-21-2010, 05:59 PM
"Jay Cutler is our quarterback.":heh:

This is the perfect response.

Lonestar
06-21-2010, 09:06 PM
He may be making 6 times as much but that figure is 9 times less than what it should be.

One torn ACL or achilles or anything like that and his one shot of a big deal may be gone for good. Any agent will tell him to protect himself (and therefore the agent's rip).

Also, it would be hard to paint Elvis as a malcontent. He showed up to OTA's with no deal and practiced, he signed his tender in good faith, the Broncos are the ones who wont look too good especially considering McDaniels early in the offseason said Dumervil was a priority and would get his deal done quickly :lol:.

Let's see if I have this correct it would be a shame if he got his knee torn up playing footbal for "just" 3.2 mil. But it wiould be alright if Pat gave him 40 mil guaranteed and lost his services with the same knee issue.

For a kid like Doom 3.2 million was un thought of while in HS.

If that is such a concern to you let the Broncos pay for a catistrophic injury insurance policy for him.

I'd guess they would do that in a heart beat before giving him or anyone 40 mil and assuming the risk.

It is a two way street my friend.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

LordTrychon
06-21-2010, 09:29 PM
We should pay all our starters just 3 mil, now that I think about it... to hell with what market value is elsewhere.

We'd be so far under the cap, it'd be great!

Tned
06-21-2010, 09:30 PM
My guess is Elvis will look out for his best interests just as the Broncos are looking out for their best interests. He will sit out the 8 or 10 games he is allowed to without having to forefit his accrued season. I can't say I blame the guy if he did.

I would. He's under contract. If he wanted to "not play" he should have not signed his tender. Since he signed his contract, even if the Broncos were forced him to by playing hardball, he needs to honor the contract and play.

Tned
06-21-2010, 09:33 PM
Well, to be more precise, it means that there's no reason for said people to apologize to you, since nothing has changed regarding the underlying question of whether or not the bargaining is being done in good faith. Therefore, your talking of apologies is of no greater weight than it had been previously.

You aside, because you just snipe at me like I pissed in your wheaties or stole your girlfriend, the people I am speaking about are the ones that took offence and got defensie because I said the Broncos 'forced' Dumervil to sign via the threat of reducing his tender. They claimed Doom was planning on signing anyway, and the Broncos didn't force/pressure him into signing by holding the 'reduced tender' over his head.

Tempus Fugit
06-21-2010, 09:42 PM
You aside, because you just snipe at me like I pissed in your wheaties or stole your girlfriend, the people I am speaking about are the ones that took offence and got defensie because I said the Broncos 'forced' Dumervil to sign via the threat of reducing his tender. They claimed Doom was planning on signing anyway, and the Broncos didn't force/pressure him into signing by holding the 'reduced tender' over his head.

If you'd like a less "snipe at me" style, I'd be happy to oblige as long as you return the favor. That has not been your approach towards my posts for some months, however. Rather, your general approach has been to give make snarky posts and then claim victim status when I respond in kind.

Tned
06-21-2010, 09:54 PM
If you'd like a less "snipe at me" style, I'd be happy to oblige as long as you return the favor. That has not been your approach towards my posts for some months, however. Rather, your general approach has been to give make snarky posts and then claim victim status when I respond in kind.

All I try and do is have discussion and debate, even with those I disagree with, without making it personal. To date, you have struggled in this area. As I have previously said, if you want to send me a PM, or do it public, and let me know what I did to 'offend' or upset you to the point that you continuously snipe at me, then great, let's clear the air. Otherwise, how about we just discuss/debate the topics at hand without your petty sniping? Deal?

I get my hand slapped if I respond to you in kind (Admin isn't supposed to act like a dick), and follow you around sniping at you. Therefore, I am having to play your game with one arm tied behind my back. So, if it floats your boat, great, but otherwise, how about we clear the air an move on?

Tempus Fugit
06-21-2010, 10:09 PM
All I try and do is have discussion and debate, even with those I disagree with, without making it personal. To date, you have struggled in this area. As I have previously said, if you want to send me a PM, or do it public, and let me know what I did to 'offend' or upset you to the point that you continuously snipe at me, then great, let's clear the air. Otherwise, how about we just discuss/debate the topics at hand without your petty sniping? Deal?

I get my hand slapped if I respond to you in kind (Admin isn't supposed to act like a dick), and follow you around sniping at you. Therefore, I am having to play your game with one arm tied behind my back. So, if it floats your boat, great, but otherwise, how about we clear the air an move on?

I'm happy to move on, but I have to note that you keep misrepresenting what's happened. I hate arguing with mods, and I generally try to be overly respectful towards them unless I think they've crossed a line. You have made personal comments and then cried victim when the same was done in return. You have made snarky comments and then complained when it was done in return. Your acting as if you've always been the one attacked is certainly not reflective of my take on what's happened.

Moving forward, I promise to continue to strive to be as polite to you as you are to me, and to also try getting clarification from you before I consider a response of yours to be snarky. I think that's fair. If you think I should do something above and beyond that, please tell me what that 'something' would be. If not, I'll consider this matter closed and us to be moving forward with a clean slate.

LordTrychon
06-21-2010, 10:10 PM
Nah... ignore Tned. He's no mod.

GEM
06-21-2010, 10:13 PM
Can you 2 hug it out? I think it would just solidify all the love we're feeling in here. :D

jhildebrand
06-21-2010, 10:27 PM
"Jay Cutler is our quarterback."






:heh:

Peyton Hillis will be a Bronco for a long time to come.

[according to some, those weren't lies]

Tned
06-21-2010, 10:32 PM
I'm happy to move on, but I have to note that you keep misrepresenting what's happened. I hate arguing with mods, and I generally try to be overly respectful towards them unless I think they've crossed a line. I hate arguing with mods, and I generally try to be overly respectful towards them unless I think they've crossed a line. You have made personal comments and then cried victim when the same was done in return. You have made snarky comments and then complained when it was done in return. Your acting as if you've always been the one attacked is certainly not reflective of my take on what's happened.

Moving forward, I promise to continue to strive to be as polite to you as you are to me, and to also try getting clarification from you before I consider a response of yours to be snarky. I think that's fair. If you think I should do something above and beyond that, please tell me what that 'something' would be. If not, I'll consider this matter closed and us to be moving forward with a clean slate.

I will strive for the same, and give you a big :hug: as Gem has directed....

jhildebrand
06-21-2010, 10:33 PM
I would. He's under contract. If he wanted to "not play" he should have not signed his tender. Since he signed his contract, even if the Broncos were forced him to by playing hardball, he needs to honor the contract and play.

Teams can play hardball right now because of the uncapped year and certain labor issues.

However, it will be the players that will have the last laugh. Dumervil can play tough and force their hand as well by sitting out. Why should he take heat for that? The league, specifically the owners, new this CBA was an issue YEARS ago. Immediately they had issues with it and it was known that both parties would need to tweak the system. All along they have told players to honor their contracts, play it out. Well it works both ways, players get hurt and teams don't "honor the contract." It is as simple as cutting a guy. Some are cut simply to avoid being paid a roster bonus i.e. money they were due.

Finally, this is especially odd as other players like Dumervil and Brandon Marshall would have been UFA's as opposed to RFA's. The owners are taking full advantage of that. Why shouldn't Dumervil be able to play by the same set of rules? :confused:

The owners could have fixed this. The owners knew that some players would be forced to sign these tenders. The owners should also, being smart business men, be able to see how the players would react.

Tned
06-21-2010, 10:36 PM
Teams can play hardball right now because of the uncapped year and certain labor issues.

However, it will be the players that will have the last laugh. Dumervil can play tough and force their hand as well by sitting out. Why should he take heat for that? The league, specifically the owners, new this CBA was an issue YEARS ago. Immediately they had issues with it and it was known that both parties would need to tweak the system. All along they have told players to honor their contracts, play it out. Well it works both ways, players get hurt and teams don't "honor the contract." It is as simple as cutting a guy. Some are cut simply to avoid being paid a roster bonus i.e. money they were due.

Finally, this is especially odd as other players like Dumervil and Brandon Marshall would have been UFA's as opposed to RFA's. The owners are taking full advantage of that. Why shouldn't Dumervil be able to play by the same set of rules? :confused:

The owners could have fixed this. The owners knew that some players would be forced to sign these tenders. The owners should also, being smart business men, be able to see how the players would react.

That's a two way street. The union played hard ball in the negotiations, believing the owners were terrified of an 'uncapped' year. The players made this bed, because they brought in the Patton Boggs litigator to run the union and play hard ball with the owners. It backfired, since the players didn't realize that the uncapped year actually was MUCH better for the owners, rather than it being something they feared. They gambled, they lost.

As to Doom, if he wasn't going to play, he shouldn't have signed his tender. Once he did, even if the Broncos plaed dirty pool in forcing him to sign it, he needs to play and honor the contract.

jhildebrand
06-21-2010, 10:37 PM
This just really pisses me off. I know we can't over pay for him, but we can't let him walk away. Players band together, even if it is against a coach, especially one that they have only played for for a year. They don't have any loyalty to McDaniels. The guy screws Elvis over, no one on this team will trust him. Plain and simple.

Exactly! That includes FA's. Some here cannot accept this idea.

My issue with this is once again we have a quote from McDaniels where one thing is said and it appears another thing is happening which is directly opposite of what was said.

McDaniels said Dumervil was a priority. Is he really? :confused: If he was, it seems like a deal could have been done by now. Another concern with McDaniels saying that is he made the comment of his own free will. Did he think it would be an easy deal, did he misread the situation, does he know what he is doing? Or was it all Bull Feces? Something to sell the fans. The ol college try.

jhildebrand
06-21-2010, 10:40 PM
That's a two way street. The union played hard ball in the negotiations, believing the owners were terrified of an 'uncapped' year. The players made this bed, because they brought in the Patton Boggs litigator to run the union and play hard ball with the owners. It backfired, since the players didn't realize that the uncapped year actually was MUCH better for the owners, rather than it being something they feared. They gambled, they lost.

As to Doom, if he wasn't going to play, he shouldn't have signed his tender. Once he did, even if the Broncos plaed dirty pool in forcing him to sign it, he needs to play and honor the contract.

I see your point, TNED. But let me continue for a moment.

Whether the players brought in a litigator or not is moot at this point. At the end of the day the owners signed off on the deal. If they didn't like it, they should have and could have kept everybody at the bargaining table.

Ultimately, the owners were the first to cry foul about the deal. As for Dumervil, why wouldn't he take the money even if he intends to sit out? At some point he will have to play games (I believe a total of 8). That is a minor amount of money for a HUGE risk on his part.

Tned
06-21-2010, 10:58 PM
I see your point, TNED. But let me continue for a moment.

Whether the players brought in a litigator or not is moot at this point. At the end of the day the owners signed off on the deal. If they didn't like it, they should have and could have kept everybody at the bargaining table.

Ultimately, the owners were the first to cry foul about the deal. As for Dumervil, why wouldn't he take the money even if he intends to sit out? At some point he will have to play games (I believe a total of 8). That is a minor amount of money for a HUGE risk on his part.

He will only need to play six games to get one year of accrued service (I believe).

Why, because he signed a contract and therefore is now under contract. While I would have no problem with him refusing to sign his tender and telling the Broncos he would not play without the contract he thinks he deserves (as the Charger players are doing), I have a major problem with him signing his contract and failing to honor it.

Holding out is not an acceptable bargaining tool, it is a failure to honor your contract. that's wrong any way you cut it. Bringing up the fact owners can cut players, isn't an argument, because that's why player contracts have signing bonuses up front, and some percentage of guaranteed money (and the cap hit when you cut a player you gave a signing bonus to), to offset the fact that players under contract can be cut.

As to the CBA, I couldn't disagree with you more strongly. The owners did nothing wrong. You have it backwards. They simply executed a provision of the CBA/contract negotiated with the players union (to bring this uncapped year into play). The players union brought in their 'shark' and were betting on the fact that owners were terrified of an uncapped year, and the result is they played chicken and lost and lost big time.

I 'hope' that both the union and owners realize that it's in their best interest to get a new CBA in place and not have a lockout/strike in 2011, because every sport that does it pays the price dearly. However, there is no way to blame the owners for the current situation.

Ravage!!!
06-21-2010, 11:29 PM
http://twitter.com/fs3142/statuses/16708938645

McD on Rome: "We absolutely desire to have Elvis Dumervil on our football team for a long time. We know what that commitment means."

fs3142
Frank Schwab

I heard that same thing said about Hillis

Tned
06-21-2010, 11:54 PM
I heard that same thing said about Hillis

The thing that those saying "See, McD sad he wants him here long term" and those saying, "he said the same about Hillis, Cutler, Marshall, etc." need to understand is that statements by coaches and the results of the actual personnel decisions are often very divergent. McDaniels is probably completely sincere in his statement that he hopes Dumervil is here for years to come. However, he may not be willing to pay what Dumervil believes is the market price. So, the personnel 'decision' may be that it is better to let Dumervil go, even thought he "would like" for him to be here for years to come.

No NFL head coach that deserves his job is going to say, "I really don't think ______ is a long term fit here, so I am going to get as much out of him, for as little money as I can, and then let him move on...."

I bring this up to only point out that all of you that continuously put up the McDaniels quotes to either prove he is a liar or prove that he is doing EVERYTHING in his power to keep _____ player, have to realize that coaches are paid not only to run the team, but also to try and put the best PR spin on things. That means at times they lie, or embellish things, to the press. They aren't up front about an injury. They don't say, "I am openly trying to trade ______. I am pretty confident that I will get a deal done by the draft, but if not, I am sure there will be no hard feelings and _____ will just be happy to still have a job." Does anyone really think that is what an NFL coach should say? Is that the honesty you expect?

I don't want a coach that is 'honest' with the press. I want a coach that is going to but a winning team on the field. I'll take it a step further. I think any coach that never lies to the media (and by extension the fans) should be fired, because he has no place being an NFL coach.

Bosco
06-22-2010, 12:05 AM
I think it speaks volumes when someone as level headed and fair as GEM posts something like ^^. My guess is A LOT of casual fans see it the same way not to mention the hardcores!

Denver has their reputation on the line. It will be hard to get back once it is lost!

The problem is that 90% of casual fans simply don't have a ******* clue what they're arguing for. The NFL is a complicated thing and the armchairs just don't have the knowledge to really form an educated opinion.

All the talk here lately is that Doom wants a $65 million dollar contract with something like $40 million guaranteed. That is an OUTRAGEOUS amount of money for a player like Doom and it's one of the biggest reasons why we're dealing with the current CBA issue. Two franchise quarterbacks, Eli Manning and Phillip Rivers, received less guaranteed money than that.

Simply put, the team is not going to spend that much money on Doom, much less when there is a real possibility that we don't have football in 2011. If Doom wants to be a Bronco for the long term he needs to come way down on what he wants for guaranteed money. Something in the neighborhood of $30 million would be much more appropriate for a player of his caliber while still giving him a top 5 DE/OLB salary.

Tned
06-22-2010, 12:16 AM
The problem is that 90% of casual fans simply don't have a ******* clue what they're arguing for. The NFL is a complicated thing and the armchairs just don't have the knowledge to really form an educated opinion.

All the talk here lately is that Doom wants a $65 million dollar contract with something like $40 million guaranteed. That is an OUTRAGEOUS amount of money for a player like Doom and it's one of the biggest reasons why we're dealing with the current CBA issue. Two franchise quarterbacks, Eli Manning and Phillip Rivers, received less guaranteed money than that.

Simply put, the team is not going to spend that much money on Doom, much less when there is a real possibility that we don't have football in 2011. If Doom wants to be a Bronco for the long term he needs to come way down on what he wants for guaranteed money. Something in the neighborhood of $30 million would be much more appropriate for a player of his caliber while still giving him a top 5 DE/OLB salary.

Further to your point is the contracts that top draft picks are getting. When a first round QB, who has never thrown an NFL pass, gets more guaraneed money than any QB in the NFL, there are probles in the system.

Who knows if the $65/40 million figure is right. If so, it sounds high, compared to some of the other pass rushers we've seen paid in recent years. There is no question that his performance indicates he should get a big, long term contract. The million dollar (or 40-65 million dollar) question is what really is his 'market value', because that's the number he should get paid. It may be that he doesn't get paid 'market value' until there is a new CBA in place, and depending on that CBA, the market value could go up or down.

My ramblng point is that it isn't a simple question of "the Broncos should pay him", since we don't know if he is being unreasonable in his demands, or the Broncos are totally low-balling him. As a fan, I think the Broncos need to make every effort possible to sign him, because they have grown up very little talent over the last 10 years, and most of that talent has been traded or otherwise lost. They have spent many, many years looking for a top 5 type pass rusher, and if they let Doom go, they could spend many, many more yeas trying to find his replacement.

pnbronco
06-22-2010, 12:19 AM
The thing that those saying "See, McD sad he wants him here long term" and those saying, "he said the same about Hillis, Cutler, Marshall, etc." need to understand is that statements by coaches and the results of the actual personnel decisions are often very divergent. McDaniels is probably completely sincere in his statement that he hopes Dumervil is here for years to come. However, he may not be willing to pay what Dumervil believes is the market price. So, the personnel 'decision' may be that it is better to let Dumervil go, even thought he "would like" for him to be here for years to come.

No NFL head coach that deserves his job is going to say, "I really don't think ______ is a long term fit here, so I am going to get as much out of him, for as little money as I can, and then let him move on...."

I bring this up to only point out that all of you that continuously put up the McDaniels quotes to either prove he is a liar or prove that he is doing EVERYTHING in his power to keep _____ player, have to realize that coaches are paid not only to run the team, but also to try and put the best PR spin on things. That means at times they lie, or embellish things, to the press. They aren't up front about an injury. They don't say, "I am openly trying to trade ______. I am pretty confident that I will get a deal done by the draft, but if not, I am sure there will be no hard feelings and _____ will just be happy to still have a job." Does anyone really think that is what an NFL coach should say? Is that the honesty you expect?

I don't want a coach that is 'honest' with the press. I want a coach that is going to but a winning team on the field. I'll take it a step further. I think any coach that never lies to the media (and by extension the fans) should be fired, because he has no place being an NFL coach.


Well put Tned. It's the part of football that I really hate. I really like Elvis the person and will be very sad if this whole thing does not end up working out. I have no idea what the gap is but I hope both sides find a way to work it all out.

BTW you were right, the letter was pressure to get him to sign the tender...:D (write this down, those are words that rarely come out of my fingers....:laugh:)

Bosco
06-22-2010, 12:25 AM
Further to your point is the contracts that top draft picks are getting. When a first round QB, who has never thrown an NFL pass, gets more guaraneed money than any QB in the NFL, there are probles in the system.

Who knows if the $65/40 million figure is right. If so, it sounds high, compared to some of the other pass rushers we've seen paid in recent years. There is no question that his performance indicates he should get a big, long term contract. The million dollar (or 40-65 million dollar) question is what really is his 'market value', because that's the number he should get paid. It may be that he doesn't get paid 'market value' until there is a new CBA in place, and depending on that CBA, the market value could go up or down.

My ramblng point is that it isn't a simple question of "the Broncos should pay him", since we don't know if he is being unreasonable in his demands, or the Broncos are totally low-balling him. As a fan, I think the Broncos need to make every effort possible to sign him, because they have grown up very little talent over the last 10 years, and most of that talent has been traded or otherwise lost. They have spent many, many years looking for a top 5 type pass rusher, and if they let Doom go, they could spend many, many more yeas trying to find his replacement.

Agree entirely.

Ultimately I have faith that the deal will get done. Both Josh and Elvis want Elvis here long term and I believe that Elvis is the type who will understand the Broncos position and come to a fair compromise.

Northman
06-22-2010, 12:59 AM
As a fan, I think the Broncos need to make every effort possible to sign him, because they have grown up very little talent over the last 10 years, and most of that talent has been traded or otherwise lost. They have spent many, many years looking for a top 5 type pass rusher, and if they let Doom go, they could spend many, many more yeas trying to find his replacement.


Yeeeeep.

Dirk
06-22-2010, 05:36 AM
Ultimately I have faith that the deal will get done. Both Josh and Elvis want Elvis here long term and I believe that Elvis is the type who will understand the Broncos position and come to a fair compromise.

I believe Elvis is also. His agent...not so much. Agents are hired to make sure the players don't get screwed. (but they get "theirs" when the player does)

Elevation inc
06-22-2010, 05:55 AM
Then sign the man to a ******* contract, *******.

FFS...I have tried to error on the side of my favorite team, but this is getting ri
******* diculous! The man has done it the right way, he's been a team player, he's been a joy in the locker room. If you don't sign him...you WILL lose your locker room, numb nuts. Guys see that going the prima donna way don't work, they see that going the professional way don't work...who the hell will want to stay on this team...hell, what's the point anyways, we're tossing away all of our talent anyways. :so****ingpissed:

i agree, im starting to lean towards the fact the Denver broncos may be becoming cheap asses....they may feel average players and a elite scheme will be enough to get by.....sadly, we havent seen this elite scheme yet...i hope for our sake it shows next year....

we all know that to be BS.....one thing is for certain they need to get elvis signed...i dont even care if the amount alot right now....he is by far the only player in a contract dispute in the entire NFL that went about the issue the right way....

if any player deserves the cash now....its him....PERIOD!!!!!


We all have things we disagree and agree about regarding this team....but buisness or not if elvis aint signed to a new deal....thats a hypocritical gesture by the broncos in its entirety, and BS to boot.....

Im always a wait and see kinda guy, and willing to give the benefit of the doubt....but this is starting to flow to BS land and fast.....

Traveler
06-22-2010, 06:22 AM
Just pay the man! He's the only player we have that can actually get to the QB.

Lonestar
06-22-2010, 09:32 AM
If the chart that North produced in one of these threads is correct the broncos were a shade under 10 under last years cap.

The players cut vs the players resigned so far seem to be about even.

Not counting new rookie contracts coming up, there seems to be 10 mil to play with even in an upcapped year you can't be irresponsible as an owner an go much over the 60% mark of your revenue stream and not be in trouble.

Now I know that most here are not management types. But in most business the over all rule of thumb is TOTAL personell costs should never exceed 63% or so percent if you want to stay in business. Not included in those numbers posted yesterday where all the other "costs" coaches, FO staff, insurance for them.

If we add another 6 mil or so to Dooms contract we have less than a million to cover the rest of the upcoming signings.

And let me repeat that just because it is an uncapped year does not mean you go crazy. Because it is not a good decision as a businessman and their will be a CAP next year. While it most likely will be higher than 09, we also have a bunch more potetial RFA and UFA to deal with next year.

It is real easy to spend some elses money. Anyone here want to pony up the extra 6 mil for doom?

That means
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Lonestar
06-22-2010, 09:36 AM
Let me just say that I forgot to factor in our new starting DL costs when saying we may have broken even.

So we may have already eaten up that 10 mil we were under last year.

Before we look at rookie contracts and all the signing bonuses that are new to the spread/length of their new contract.
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Northman
06-22-2010, 10:36 AM
Just pay the man! He's the only player we have that can actually get to the QB.

Well to some thats not that important i guess. Its like for every step forward this team makes they take 2 steps backwards in something else. So really, we are not making any progress and unfortuantely the team will suffer if it continues like this. Hopefully, the brass comes to their senses and get a long term deal ironed out with Doom. If we lose him the defense will have problems again count on it.

LordTrychon
06-22-2010, 10:51 AM
The cap (when there is one) increases by a significant amount every year.

If there was a cap this year, we'd have probably at least double that amount to play with.

The cap is set to (I believe) 65% of the shared revenue that the owners get from TV contracts, etc... on top of that they have their luxury box sales, etc.

arapaho2
06-22-2010, 12:05 PM
The thing that those saying "See, McD sad he wants him here long term" and those saying, "he said the same about Hillis, Cutler, Marshall, etc." need to understand is that statements by coaches and the results of the actual personnel decisions are often very divergent. McDaniels is probably completely sincere in his statement that he hopes Dumervil is here for years to come. However, he may not be willing to pay what Dumervil believes is the market price. So, the personnel 'decision' may be that it is better to let Dumervil go, even thought he "would like" for him to be here for years to come.

No NFL head coach that deserves his job is going to say, "I really don't think ______ is a long term fit here, so I am going to get as much out of him, for as little money as I can, and then let him move on...."

I bring this up to only point out that all of you that continuously put up the McDaniels quotes to either prove he is a liar or prove that he is doing EVERYTHING in his power to keep _____ player, have to realize that coaches are paid not only to run the team, but also to try and put the best PR spin on things. That means at times they lie, or embellish things, to the press. They aren't up front about an injury. They don't say, "I am openly trying to trade ______. I am pretty confident that I will get a deal done by the draft, but if not, I am sure there will be no hard feelings and _____ will just be happy to still have a job." Does anyone really think that is what an NFL coach should say? Is that the honesty you expect?

I don't want a coach that is 'honest' with the press. I want a coach that is going to but a winning team on the field. I'll take it a step further. I think any coach that never lies to the media (and by extension the fans) should be fired, because he has no place being an NFL coach.


so a coach that lies to us fans..the media..is doing his job

but a coach with integrity, honesty and a core value that the truth and being upfront is good...... is a fireing offense


what has become of america :lol::lol::lol:

arapaho2
06-22-2010, 12:12 PM
If the chart that North produced in one of these threads is correct the broncos were a shade under 10 under last years cap.

The players cut vs the players resigned so far seem to be about even.

Not counting new rookie contracts coming up, there seems to be 10 mil to play with even in an upcapped year you can't be irresponsible as an owner an go much over the 60% mark of your revenue stream and not be in trouble.

Now I know that most here are not management types. But in most business the over all rule of thumb is TOTAL personell costs should never exceed 63% or so percent if you want to stay in business. Not included in those numbers posted yesterday where all the other "costs" coaches, FO staff, insurance for them.

If we add another 6 mil or so to Dooms contract we have less than a million to cover the rest of the upcoming signings.

And let me repeat that just because it is an uncapped year does not mean you go crazy. Because it is not a good decision as a businessman and their will be a CAP next year. While it most likely will be higher than 09, we also have a bunch more potetial RFA and UFA to deal with next year.

It is real easy to spend some elses money. Anyone here want to pony up the extra 6 mil for doom?

That means
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums


your forgetting all the dead money we owed in last years numbers

if im also not mistaken projected rookie contracts based on draft position are already figured into the cap number ...before

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 12:18 PM
rookie contracts and a rookie pay scale are one of the biggest issues the owners want addressed in a new cba.which means they are tired of having to pay untested players a fortune before they even play a down in the league.(see jamarcus bust-le)
that is why i expect alot of holdouts this year across the league.the owners have shown their intentions with rfa's this year.and i think we will see a pretty strong stance against breaking the bank on rookies as well.especially when the owners know they could be paying these guys next year for doing nothing.
like i have said many times we are not looking at the same playing field we have been previously when it comes to contracts.so basing assumptions on what happened last year or any year prior is not a good idea.

shank
06-22-2010, 12:42 PM
sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him sign him

Bosco
06-22-2010, 01:35 PM
hopefully, doom and his agent comes to their senses and get a long term deal ironed out with doom. If we lose him the defense will have problems again count on it.

fyp.

Northman
06-22-2010, 03:12 PM
fyp.


hopefully, the brass comes to their senses and get a long term deal ironed out with doom. If we lose him the defense will have problems again count on it.

Nah, i had it right the first time.

Bosco
06-22-2010, 03:18 PM
Really? You think with Doom reportedly wanting as much guaranteed money as Ware, more than Suggs and Freeney, with the current CBA situation, that it's the team that needs to come to their senses?

Hell, why not just give the guy a blank check?

Northman
06-22-2010, 03:29 PM
Really? You think with Doom reportedly wanting as much guaranteed money as Ware, more than Suggs and Freeney, with the current CBA situation, that it's the team that needs to come to their senses?

Hell, why not just give the guy a blank check?

I have no problem with him getting top 5 money. When i look at his stats last year he was right up there with Ware and company. What cracks me up is everyone points to "oh noes, he wants money like Suggs, Freeney, and Ware!" But all those guys have something he doesnt. A better supporting cast on both sides of the ball.He hasnt had the luxury to be in a system until this past year where it benefits his strengths and yet with all the turmoil and other BS he still got 17 sacks in 14 games. The Broncos are not really paying any other player on this team top money because most of them are average aside from a couple of guys. So whats the problem? He's not one dimensional, ive already shown the stats that prove otherwise so that line is thinking is hogwash. And again, thats without a great man up front to help him out like the other guys he's being compared too. Fact is, there has been no report of him wanting to break the bank. Only that he wants top 5 money in which he has earned. Sure, McD and company doesnt have to pay him, but they should because they have NO ONE to replace those numbers. NO ONE.

Tempus Fugit
06-22-2010, 03:31 PM
After leading the NFL with 17 sacks last year, and recording 43 sacks in four years while making a combined $2.015 million, Dumervil is hoping to be among the league's five highest-paid pass rushers. That would mean a multiyear contract worth at least $65 million, with the guaranteed portion about $40 million.

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15297749?source=skipframe-www.theredzone.org

Good luck with those numbers, Mr. Dumervil.

silkamilkamonico
06-22-2010, 03:40 PM
It was a great interview from both sides of the spectrum.

nice to here a friend of Marshall's, and someone who was 'in the know', and underswtood why Marshall was traded and also agreed he was immature.

silkamilkamonico
06-22-2010, 03:41 PM
Good luck with those numbers, Mr. Dumervil.

Yea, I would immediately say no to that. He's not worth that kind of money.

Bosco
06-22-2010, 04:01 PM
I have no problem with him getting top 5 money. When i look at his stats last year he was right up there with Ware and company. What cracks me up is everyone points to "oh noes, he wants money like Suggs, Freeney, and Ware!" But all those guys have something he doesnt. A better supporting cast on both sides of the ball.He hasnt had the luxury to be in a system until this past year where it benefits his strengths and yet with all the turmoil and other BS he still got 17 sacks in 14 games. The Broncos are not really paying any other player on this team top money because most of them are average aside from a couple of guys. So whats the problem? He's not one dimensional, ive already shown the stats that prove otherwise so that line is thinking is hogwash. And again, thats without a great man up front to help him out like the other guys he's being compared too. Fact is, there has been no report of him wanting to break the bank. Only that he wants top 5 money in which he has earned. Sure, McD and company doesnt have to pay him, but they should because they have NO ONE to replace those numbers. NO ONE.

I agree he should get a top 5 salary, but not the top 1 or 2 salary he's reportedly looking for. James Harrison is getting $28 mil guaranteed, and Freeney $30 mil. That's the price range Dumervil needs to be looking at.

Tempus Fugit
06-22-2010, 04:06 PM
Dumervil's not a top 5 linebacker. Paying him top 5 money would be an overpay, as a result. That's bad policy when the future might well result in less money or, at least, smaller increases in the cap.

Northman
06-22-2010, 04:12 PM
I agree he should get a top 5 salary, but not the top 1 or 2 salary he's reportedly looking for. James Harrison is getting $28 mil guaranteed, and Freeney $30 mil. That's the price range Dumervil needs to be looking at.

The only reports ive seen is him asking for top 5. But then again, every year the price range seems to jump no matter who the players are asking for it.

jhildebrand
06-22-2010, 04:37 PM
Let's see if I have this correct it would be a shame if he got his knee torn up playing footbal for "just" 3.2 mil. But it wiould be alright if Pat gave him 40 mil guaranteed and lost his services with the same knee issue.

He played out his entire rookie contract. Had it not been for a whacky labor agreement, he would be a UFA.

I don't side with the player very often especially when there is still time on their rookie deal. However, Elvis played it out. He honored his end of the bargain. He was told his deal was a priority.

No he shouldn't risk the rest of his career for 3.2 MILLION when the market is closer to 9 MILLION.

That is a risk the team eventually has to take and even then it isn't as much risk as the player because contracts in the NFL aren't guaranteed.

I will tell you this, someone is more than willing to take a risk on Elvis to the tune of 30+ Million.

Before you go off on his size, let's remember Freeney was paid quite nicely too.




It is a two way street my friend.


Someone should tell the Broncos that :coffee:

jhildebrand
06-22-2010, 04:44 PM
Something in the neighborhood of $30 million would be much more appropriate for a player of his caliber while still giving him a top 5 DE/OLB salary.

Sounds good to me. Over how many years?

jhildebrand
06-22-2010, 04:49 PM
However, there is no way to blame the owners for the current situation.

I almost never side with the players. On this one, I definitely side with the players.

This current CBA had barely been in place before the owners made it clear that they were going to take the actions they have.

That was 2 or 3 seasons ago. Why is there even the threat of a lockout?

Also, how do you not blame the owners at all? It always takes two. For me, it is evident the owners took a deal simply to avoid a lockout or what now appears to stall one. They agreed to something when they shouldn't have. Once you give something up in negotiations, which the owners did, it is hard to take that back later on. They should have continued bargaining years ago and had a full 10 year CBA as before.

We do agree that league's pay dearly for lockouts and I certainly hope the NFL doesn't think it is an exception.

Bosco
06-22-2010, 05:06 PM
Sounds good to me. Over how many years?

Judging by the deals others are getting, 5 or 6 years.

Slick
06-22-2010, 05:19 PM
I'm trying really hard not to overreact in regards to this situation. It would be nice if both parties could come to an agreement soon. I'm not even going to speculate on what is happening behind closed doors. It sounds like Dumervil and his agent are a little frustrated but not ready to give up. To me, that's something positive at least.

I'll agree with what some are saying, that Elvis is not a top 5 linebacker. However, he's our best linebacker in my opinion, more valuable to us than a DJ Williams(who gets paid fairly well if I remember correctly).

Our front office needs to think long and hard about losing a pass rusher of his caliber and what that would mean to this defense.

We failed in quite a few attempts at drafting or signing guys via free agency to rush the passer, yet when we actually draft and develop one we reach a stumbling point.

Man I hope they work something out.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-22-2010, 05:22 PM
The only reports ive seen is him asking for top 5. But then again, every year the price range seems to jump no matter who the players are asking for it.

Scott Hastings stated that the figure he has heard was Ware money

pnbronco
06-22-2010, 05:32 PM
Scott Hastings stated that the figure he has heard was Ware money

So how much is that Carol? Also where does fit in the whole 1 - 10 group? I'm sure this has been stated somewhere, but I'm running like a chicken with no head, I know shocking.....:eek:

Denver Native (Carol)
06-22-2010, 05:38 PM
So how much is that Carol? Also where does fit in the whole 1 - 10 group? I'm sure this has been stated somewhere, but I'm running like a chicken with no head, I know shocking.....:eek:

His contract was done last year in October.

http://cbs11tv.com/local/demarcus.ware.cowboys.2.1271605.html

Three-time Pro Bowl linebacker DeMarcus Ware and the Dallas Cowboys have finally agreed on a contract extension, a six-year deal through the 2015 season.

There was no immediate confirmation from the team about financial terms, though a report on the Cowboys' Web site said Ware's deal was for $78 million, an average of $16 million with $40 million guaranteed. Several other media outlets also reported the $40 million guarantee.

Ware was the NFL's sacks leader last season with 20. He has four in the last two games despite playing with a stress fracture in his left foot after being shut out the first four this season.

Northman
06-22-2010, 06:03 PM
Scott Hastings stated that the figure he has heard was Ware money

Who is Scott Hastings and do you have a link? I would like to read that article if i can.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-22-2010, 06:16 PM
Who is Scott Hastings and do you have a link? I would like to read that article if i can.

Scott Hastings is on FM104.3 the Fan - not an article - I sent an email to him on their site, and he sent the following back to me:

From: hastings-s@comcast.net [mailto:hastings-s@comcast.net]

Was just told early #'s for elvis is close to ware's numbers but broncos low ballin right now!!

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Dumvervil's contract was a major discussion today on his show

Northman
06-22-2010, 06:24 PM
Scott Hastings is on FM104.3 the Fan - not an article - I sent an email to him on their site, and he sent the following back to me:

From: hastings-s@comcast.net [mailto:hastings-s@comcast.net]

Was just told early #'s for elvis is close to ware's numbers but broncos low ballin right now!!

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Dumvervil's contract was a major discussion today on his show

So basically Doom started at the Ware range but the Denver brass are lower than even halfway? Guess we will see if they can meet in the middle if at all. For me personally we have to pay the man somewhere in that range if we want to keep him. He's the only one on this team that can get that kind of production that guys like Ware and company get. Time will tell.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-22-2010, 06:34 PM
So basically Doom started at the Ware range but the Denver brass are lower than even halfway? Guess we will see if they can meet in the middle if at all. For me personally we have to pay the man somewhere in that range if we want to keep him. He's the only one on this team that can get that kind of production that guys like Ware and company get. Time will tell.

Well, I guess to you, by Hastings stating that the Broncos are low ballin right now, that means that the Broncos are lower than even halfway?????? Is it fair for you to interpret it that way?

Slick
06-22-2010, 06:37 PM
Does Hastings really even know? It makes for good radio to speculate I guess. I find it hard to believe that he knows any more that any other person with a Twitter account.

Northman
06-22-2010, 06:43 PM
Does Hastings really even know? It makes for good radio to speculate I guess. I find it hard to believe that he knows any more that any other person with a Twitter account.

Thats basically been my concern when it gets brought up about what he is actually asking for. He self admittedly wants top 5 money but that doesnt mean its in Ware range. I just have yet to see an article that actually states what he is looking for and whether it is verified.

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 06:47 PM
6 years at 7-8 mil per with 24 mil guaranteed....done and done !

Northman
06-22-2010, 06:48 PM
6 years at 7-8 mil per with 24 mil guaranteed....done and done !

Its only done brother if the player in question is offered and accepts it.

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 06:53 PM
Its only done brother if the player in question is offered and accepts it.

yeah i just think that's what he's worth in todays environment and i'm hoping the team is willing to do it.
i think it's a fair deal for both sides.
the big question i have heard is that teams are trying to get players to agree to a pay freeze if there is no 2011 season.i'm sure there is extreme pressure from the nflpa not to sign any deals with such a provision.
again its all speculative but i can see where the 2 sides of most contracts are buttheads.....er,um i mean butting heads:laugh:

Denver Native (Carol)
06-22-2010, 06:58 PM
Does Hastings really even know? It makes for good radio to speculate I guess. I find it hard to believe that he knows any more that any other person with a Twitter account.

Does Hastings really even know - well he may, Alfred Williams also works for FM104.3 the fan, and I am sure they all have inside connections. I am not stating for sure that they do know, but if I had to guess, there is a pretty good chance that is what they were told.

LawDog
06-22-2010, 08:38 PM
http://twitter.com/fs3142/statuses/16708938645

McD on Rome: "We absolutely desire to have Elvis Dumervil on our football team for a long time. We know what that commitment means."

fs3142
Frank Schwab

Translation:

Of course I would like to marry a supermodel - and I know what it would take for me to do so. I'm just not sure I want to pay the fare.

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 09:01 PM
Translation:

Of course I would like to marry a supermodel - and I know what it would take for me to do so. I'm just not sure I want to pay the fare.

actually super model's are fairly cheap to operate....they barf up what they eat and are rarely home:laugh:

Tned
06-22-2010, 09:15 PM
so a coach that lies to us fans..the media..is doing his job

but a coach with integrity, honesty and a core value that the truth and being upfront is good...... is a fireing offense


what has become of america :lol::lol::lol:

There is no such thing as a coach that doesn't lie. They lie about injuries. They lie about depth charts. They lie about the direction they are heading with personnel. Lie is a strong word, considering what they are doing is their job, but based on the 'case' some are making, we can just call it what it is.

It's their job to manage fan expectations, create a positive fan perception, keep the competition from getting any edge from their public comments, and of course put a winning field on the team.

It has nothing to do with what's happening to America, it's common sense. The simple fact is that 24 hour cable channels, near live Twitter coverage by beat reporters and the Internet have warped our sense of reality when it comes to the expectations we put on coaches in regard to expecting complete and utter honesty.

This isn't a reality show, movie or TV series, these guys are working to get every edge they can in a VERY competitive industry.

Tned
06-22-2010, 09:22 PM
I almost never side with the players. On this one, I definitely side with the players.

This current CBA had barely been in place before the owners made it clear that they were going to take the actions they have.

That was 2 or 3 seasons ago. Why is there even the threat of a lockout?

Also, how do you not blame the owners at all? It always takes two. For me, it is evident the owners took a deal simply to avoid a lockout or what now appears to stall one. They agreed to something when they shouldn't have. Once you give something up in negotiations, which the owners did, it is hard to take that back later on. They should have continued bargaining years ago and had a full 10 year CBA as before.

We do agree that league's pay dearly for lockouts and I certainly hope the NFL doesn't think it is an exception.

First, a point of clarification. The owners only had until November of '08 to choose for the CBA to end in 2010 vs. 2012, two years early. They made that decision a few months early, but it isn't like they could have waited until 2009 or now to make that decision.

Second, that 'option' was negotiated by the players union, so it isn't like they got blind sided.

As to 'blame', my issue is with putting blame on the owners. That doesn't mean I am blaming the players union. I said the players union gambled and lost, because they were betting the owners were terrified of an uncapped year, and therefore played hard ball. They played chicken and lost, costing players like Doom and many others the chance to be UFA's. It was a calculated decision on the union's part and it didn't work out.

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 09:27 PM
There is no such thing as a coach that doesn't lie. They lie about injuries. They lie about depth charts. They lie about the direction they are heading with personnel. Lie is a strong word, considering what they are doing is their job, but based on the 'case' some are making, we can just call it what it is.

It's their job to manage fan expectations, create a positive fan perception, keep the competition from getting any edge from their public comments, and of course put a winning field on the team.

It has nothing to do with what's happening to America, it's common sense. The simple fact is that 24 hour cable channels, near live Twitter coverage by beat reporters and the Internet have warped our sense of reality when it comes to the expectations we put on coaches in regard to expecting complete and utter honesty.

This isn't a reality show, movie or TV series, these guys are working to get every edge they can in a VERY competitive industry.
Just when I thought you couldn't possibly be any dumber, you go and do something like this... and totally redeem yourself! :laugh:
seriously this post makes more sense than anything I or anyone else has said on the subject.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-22-2010, 09:27 PM
There is no such thing as a coach that doesn't lie. They lie about injuries. They lie about depth charts. They lie about the direction they are heading with personnel. Lie is a strong word, considering what they are doing is their job, but based on the 'case' some are making, we can just call it what it is.

It's their job to manage fan expectations, create a positive fan perception, keep the competition from getting any edge from their public comments, and of course put a winning field on the team.

It has nothing to do with what's happening to America, it's common sense. The simple fact is that 24 hour cable channels, near live Twitter coverage by beat reporters and the Internet have warped our sense of reality when it comes to the expectations we put on coaches in regard to expecting complete and utter honesty.

This isn't a reality show, movie or TV series, these guys are working to get every edge they can in a VERY competitive industry.

BINGO :salute:

Tned
06-22-2010, 09:31 PM
Just when I thought you couldn't possibly be any dumber, you go and do something like this... and totally redeem yourself! :laugh:
seriously this post makes more sense than anything I or anyone else has said on the subject.


BINGO :salute:

Out of curiosity, does this mean I am officially out of the 'hater' category, and just into the 'posts his opinion' category?

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 09:35 PM
Out of curiosity, does this mean I am officially out of the 'hater' category, and just into the 'posts his opinion' category?

i will withhold judgement until tomorrow...when i'm sober !;)
but you are definately showing signs of improvement:elefant:

Tned
06-22-2010, 09:40 PM
i will withhold judgement until tomorrow...when i'm sober !;)
but you are definately showing signs of improvement:elefant:

Nope, I'm doing what I have done since the day he was hired, compliment or support him in the areas where I think he is doing a good, or right, job (the vast majority) and criticizing him in the areas where I think he is making mistakes or not doing a good job. Kind of the point of posting on the message board I thought.

I shouldn't have even made my last comment, but I get so sick of seeing (whether aimed at me or others) the counter to a position put forward as simply "you're just a hater, blah, blah..." or "you're just in love with _____, and think he can do know wrong..."

Maybe it doesn't bother others, but for me the fact that so many, reduce nearly every response they disagree with to some form of the above, while in nearly ALL cases it is not the case, just wears my ass out and makes me not want to read/post about the Broncos. :sad:

/Rant --- I'm clearly getting cranky, so am going to go take a nap...

Denver Native (Carol)
06-22-2010, 09:47 PM
Out of curiosity, does this mean I am officially out of the 'hater' category, and just into the 'posts his opinion' category?

Don't think I have ever referred to you as a hater :confused:

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 09:49 PM
yeah ...maybe you should sit out the next couple plays......
T,we cant have the guy who runs the joint saying he gets tired of opposing viewpoints...thats what were here for.
you are right about this subject...enjoy it !
and enjoy your nap !
it;'s all good we'll be here bickering when you wake up.
and it's a long way til' kick off.....there's plenty more where this came from:laugh:

jhildebrand
06-22-2010, 11:01 PM
Does Hastings really even know - well he may, Alfred Williams also works for FM104.3 the fan, and I am sure they all have inside connections. I am not stating for sure that they do know, but if I had to guess, there is a pretty good chance that is what they were told.

It wasn't too long ago that Hastings did the Bronco games. I am sure he still has his connections.

nevcraw
06-22-2010, 11:01 PM
Nope, I'm doing what I have done since the day he was hired, compliment or support him in the areas where I think he is doing a good, or right, job (the vast majority) and criticizing him in the areas where I think he is making mistakes or not doing a good job. Kind of the point of posting on the message board I thought.

I shouldn't have even made my last comment, but I get so sick of seeing (whether aimed at me or others) the counter to a position put forward as simply "you're just a hater, blah, blah..." or "you're just in love with _____, and think he can do know wrong..."

Maybe it doesn't bother others, but for me the fact that so many, reduce nearly every response they disagree with to some form of the above, while in nearly ALL cases it is not the case, just wears my ass out and makes me not want to read/post about the Broncos. :sad:

/Rant --- I'm clearly getting cranky, so am going to go take a nap...

Great Post T.

jhildebrand
06-22-2010, 11:04 PM
There is no such thing as a coach that doesn't lie. They lie about injuries. They lie about depth charts. They lie about the direction they are heading with personnel. Lie is a strong word, considering what they are doing is their job, but based on the 'case' some are making, we can just call it what it is.

It's their job to manage fan expectations, create a positive fan perception, keep the competition from getting any edge from their public comments, and of course put a winning field on the team.

It has nothing to do with what's happening to America, it's common sense. The simple fact is that 24 hour cable channels, near live Twitter coverage by beat reporters and the Internet have warped our sense of reality when it comes to the expectations we put on coaches in regard to expecting complete and utter honesty.

This isn't a reality show, movie or TV series, these guys are working to get every edge they can in a VERY competitive industry.

Tony Dungy and Jim Caldwell are lock step with the McDaniels and Belichicks of the world :rolleyes:

Singletary doesn't come off as a liar. He has had his share of player conflicts and didn't have to ship that person off.

In fact, most coaches get slammed for "coach speak" and cliches. Most would rather say next to nothing because they know better. I would rather that than the alternative.

jhildebrand
06-22-2010, 11:06 PM
First, a point of clarification. The owners only had until November of '08 to choose for the CBA to end in 2010 vs. 2012, two years early. They made that decision a few months early, but it isn't like they could have waited until 2009 or now to make that decision.

Second, that 'option' was negotiated by the players union, so it isn't like they got blind sided.

As to 'blame', my issue is with putting blame on the owners. That doesn't mean I am blaming the players union. I said the players union gambled and lost, because they were betting the owners were terrified of an uncapped year, and therefore played hard ball. They played chicken and lost, costing players like Doom and many others the chance to be UFA's. It was a calculated decision on the union's part and it didn't work out.

Fair enough.

By the way, I don't blame any one party entirely.

pnbronco
06-22-2010, 11:34 PM
There is no such thing as a coach that doesn't lie. They lie about injuries. They lie about depth charts. They lie about the direction they are heading with personnel. Lie is a strong word, considering what they are doing is their job, but based on the 'case' some are making, we can just call it what it is.

It's their job to manage fan expectations, create a positive fan perception, keep the competition from getting any edge from their public comments, and of course put a winning field on the team.

It has nothing to do with what's happening to America, it's common sense. The simple fact is that 24 hour cable channels, near live Twitter coverage by beat reporters and the Internet have warped our sense of reality when it comes to the expectations we put on coaches in regard to expecting complete and utter honesty.

This isn't a reality show, movie or TV series, these guys are working to get every edge they can in a VERY competitive industry.


I wish I could give you 100 High Fives on this one Tned, great post.

Meck's Golf Tourn is Monday and I've got 100 things on 100 different burners about what I've done, need to do, need to follow up on and what did I forget to do. So a lot of motion going on in my head. It made me think about all this contract stuff and how difficult it really is.

The team is always in motion and what I mean is you have your veteran players and their contracts. Some are getting older so how much longer will they be here. You have second year guys that may have not been special their rookie year but could break out this year or not. You have players that are good but can they do enough to be contribute in different areas, to earn a spot, how much do they cost. Then you have these new rookies and who knows what they do and how much they will cost.

Do you have a new QB that could be that guy? Will Quinn turn into Brady like and if so will you have enough money to pay him over the next years. Is Tebow the kid that can become a franchise QB, how much and for how long do you pay him? Will Orton really have the new system down and stay healthy and be the guy? It just complicated and they have to deal with the here and now, but not break the bank for the future too.

I hope things work out with Doom. He's a great guy and IMO he has done a lot right with his team mates and with the organization. I just hope the # are not so far apart that they can't find common ground.

dogfish
06-22-2010, 11:58 PM
Out of curiosity, does this mean I am officially out of the 'hater' category, and just into the 'posts his opinion' category?

no. . . get back in your box. . .



:welcome:

pnbronco
06-23-2010, 12:03 AM
no. . . get back in your box. . .



:welcome:

You would say that dog...my son has a dog that so smart, but can get into so many things he's not suppose to...we are always saying Fonze get back in the box.....:D

Lonestar
06-23-2010, 02:37 AM
He played out his entire rookie contract. Had it not been for a whacky labor agreement, he would be a UFA.

I don't side with the player very often especially when there is still time on their rookie deal. However, Elvis played it out. He honored his end of the bargain. He was told his deal was a priority.

No he shouldn't risk the rest of his career for 3.2 MILLION when the market is closer to 9 MILLION.

That is a risk the team eventually has to take and even then it isn't as much risk as the player because contracts in the NFL aren't guaranteed.

I will tell you this, someone is more than willing to take a risk on Elvis to the tune of 30+ Million.

Before you go off on his size, let's remember Freeney was paid quite nicely too.




Someone should tell the Broncos that :coffee:

I could care less about size he flat is not an OLB by NFL standards. He is unable to do the rest of the job thatan OLB is supposed to do.

Please do not use Dwares stats for ONE years as a comparison because that year is the amamoly for him. And it was Dooms best year. Can he improve in the other two areas of the job time will tell and so should the pay raise.

He is nothing but a DE playing out of his normal spot by 5-8 feet a hand on the ground guy that can't do anything but rush the passer.

Will someone else pay him. Perhaps in 2012 or later are another year as a FT guy where he will get top 5 money. By then his career will pretty much be shot with all the pounding he body will have taken.

Why do you really think they are not plopping down top mony for him they know today what his "short" comings are.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Tned
06-23-2010, 06:50 AM
yeah ...maybe you should sit out the next couple plays......
T,we cant have the guy who runs the joint saying he gets tired of opposing viewpoints...thats what were here for.
you are right about this subject...enjoy it !
and enjoy your nap !
it;'s all good we'll be here bickering when you wake up.
and it's a long way til' kick off.....there's plenty more where this came from:laugh:

I know you were joking around, but just to be clear, I LOVE talking with people with opposing views. I think it is boring when we all have the exact same viewpoint. I couldn't imagine posting on a message board (on any subject) where everyone agreed and just patted each other on the back with "great post" or agreed in some other form.

At work, I am known as the ultimate devils' advocate, because I always fully explore the other or 'non popular' side of things (this is both a strength and weakness of mine).

My only issue is when people are demonized for holding a different view -- called a hater or a lover or some other name to try and 'insult' them and minimize their opinion, rather than just discuss and debate the issues and topics.


Fair enough.

By the way, I don't blame any one party entirely.

Agreed. I am pissed off at both sides, because they are risking their golden goose, which will result in an interruption to the sport many of us take great pleasure in watching/following.


Tony Dungy and Jim Caldwell are lock step with the McDaniels and Belichicks of the world :rolleyes:

Singletary doesn't come off as a liar. He has had his share of player conflicts and didn't have to ship that person off.

In fact, most coaches get slammed for "coach speak" and cliches. Most would rather say next to nothing because they know better. I would rather that than the alternative.

You're mixing the shipping off of players and the 'lying' or lack of truth that all coaches do when talking to the press (as I said, lying is a harsh and not quite accurate word for what they do).

On the shipping off of players, I am labeled a 'hater' by some, because I have been very critical of McDaniels for shipping off players. Other coaches around the league deal with prima donna players and utilize a variety of methods (tough, mentoring, threatening, etc.) to get the most out of their players. The weakest arguments I have hard on this board on ANY subject were all the "_____ wanted to be traded, so McD had no choice." BS, coaches around the league deal with players that want to be traded, and their told "tough, you can move to another team when you play out your contract and become a free agent."

Back to the lying. You need to separate a statement of fact, that doesn't override a later personnel decision, from a "lie".

I have no doubt that McDaniels wants Dumervil to be here for a long time. I have no doubt that McDaniels wants to work out a long term contract with Dumvervil. However, that doesn't mean that he will sign him to a contract that the Broncos feel is too high, just because McD wants him here for a long time.

T.K.O.
06-23-2010, 10:26 AM
T.O is arguably the best reciever in the league over the last 10 years......how many coaches "shipped him off" ?

Northman
06-23-2010, 11:56 AM
T.O is arguably the best reciever in the league over the last 10 years......how many coaches "shipped him off" ?

Best receiver? Not really. He is ONE of the best but not the best and thats being kind.

T.K.O.
06-23-2010, 12:26 PM
ok...but the point remains that even if a player is great,many coaches have to consider the impact on the locker room (or team as a whole) as well as on field production.and sometimes you just have to let a guy go regardless.
only moss and holt have better #'s over the last decade.
but T.O's attitude has had him bouncing around the league
#3) Terrell Owens: San Francisco 49ers (1996-2003) Philadelphia Eagles (2004-2005) Dallas Cowboys (2006-2008), Buffalo Bills (2009)

6 Time Pro-Bowler & 5 Time First Team All-Pro
Receptions: 780
Yards: 11579
Average: 15
Touchdowns 113
Per Season Average over 10 years: 78 receptions, 1158 yards, 11 TD's

Northman
06-23-2010, 12:34 PM
ok...but the point remains that even if a player is great,many coaches have to consider the impact on the locker room (or team as a whole) as well as on field production.and sometimes you just have to let a guy go regardless.


Totally agree.

Ravage!!!
06-23-2010, 12:37 PM
The last two contracts for TO, were filled. He signed a two-year contract with Dallas and played it out. He signed a one-year contract with Buff, and played it out.

But you are using the exception to the rule to make a point. There are always exceptions to the rule. That doesn't make it the norm, or whats is/should be expected.

Lonestar
06-23-2010, 12:46 PM
Tony Dungy and Jim Caldwell are lock step with the McDaniels and Belichicks of the world :rolleyes:

Singletary doesn't come off as a liar. He has had his share of player conflicts and didn't have to ship that person off.

In fact, most coaches get slammed for "coach speak" and cliches. Most would rather say next to nothing because they know better. I would rather that than the alternative.
see the primary difference in Singeltary and Josh is one changed ther scheme completely and the other did not and HE was already there was not brought in as a fresh clean the house out toy of guy. that was nolan the few years before.

For the most part MIke Singletary had a say in almost everyone not eh team that has been brought in.

he did not inherit scum bags or players that had been coddled and promised thing from the previous HC.

Besides he automatically has respect as the old DC on the team and who the hell is going to argue with him.


Every coach is going to handle things in a different manner.

BTW mike (our) was not always known for telling the true either so NOT quite sure why Josh should be held to a different HIGHER standard.

T.K.O.
06-23-2010, 12:49 PM
The last two contracts for TO, were filled. He signed a two-year contract with Dallas and played it out. He signed a one-year contract with Buff, and played it out.

But you are using the exception to the rule to make a point. There are always exceptions to the rule. That doesn't make it the norm, or whats is/should be expected.

there are other players with similar issues (moss in oakland etc...) but my point is just that had owens been a true "team player" he would have had a long and highly productive career in SF,even could stayed in philly and maybe put them over the top.....dallas ?
the buffalo gig i will give him a pass on as his career is winding down and no team would commit to a long term deal at this point.
but his attitude has cost him alot of respect (and a couple jobs) throughout the league and it's a shame.
he is one of the all time great wr's and unfortunately will be remembered more for his selfishness than his accomplishments.
i hope brandon does'nt tarnish his career in such a way.
he seems to be getting "it" and i think he will be fine ,but he did'nt handle his situation in denver with much maturity or class.he said so himself.
now i am not saying mcD does not share in the blame for things not working out....but.he's the HC not a babysitter.and if a guy has been a distraction and you just get fed up with that sort of behavior....you have to make the call on whether its worth the trouble to fight it.and he did.
and finally i truly believe that brandon knew he needed a fresh start (and a whole lotta 0's in his contract)after the Dwill murder trial.
and it was best to move on:salute:

Lonestar
06-23-2010, 12:58 PM
there are other players with similar issues (moss in oakland etc...) but my point is just that had owens been a true "team player" he would have had a long and highly productive career in SF,even could stayed in philly and maybe put them over the top.....dallas ?
the buffalo gig i will give him a pass on as his career is winding down and no team would commit to a long term deal at this point.
but his attitude has cost him alot of respect (and a couple jobs) throughout the league and it's a shame.
he is one of the all time great wr's and unfortunately will be remembered more for his selfishness than his accomplishments.
i hope brandon does'nt tarnish his career in such a way.
he seems to be getting "it" and i think he will be fine ,but he did'nt handle his situation in denver with much maturity or class.he said so himself.
now i am not saying mcD does not share in the blame for things not working out....but.he's the HC not a babysitter.and if a guy has been a distraction and you just get fed up with that sort of behavior....you have to make the call on whether its worth the trouble to fight it.and he did.
and finally i truly believe that brandon knew he needed a fresh start (and a whole lotta 0's in his contract)after the Dwill murder trial.
and it was best to move on:salute:



He is the ultimate ME player, could BM, jay or TS have been converted to become more TEAM oriented maybe, maybe not.

Was it worth trying considering all the other things going on at the time I suspect it was all weighed by everyone from position coaches to the owner and deemed there were to many other things to fix and not to waste energy doing so.

Does anyone believe that BM would have ever been happy and any Position coach could clean up is act?

Does anyone really think that we should have a receiving TE only?

Does anyone really think that jay would have not been in Joshes grille or vice versa about the plays josh wants to call?

Sometimes you just have to make a change like Pat did with mike and hiring Josh to clean house.

Tned
06-23-2010, 08:37 PM
BTW mike (our) was not always known for telling the true either so NOT quite sure why Josh should be held to a different HIGHER standard.

IIRC, you brought up Mikey's lying on many occasions.

jhildebrand
06-23-2010, 11:05 PM
Back to the lying. You need to separate a statement of fact, that doesn't override a later personnel decision, from a "lie".

I am looking at the issue of lying as a whole over the course of McDaniels short tenure here not just the Dumervil situation.

The most ardent McDaniels backers fought tooth and nail for the longest time against the idea that the guy lied.

Now the rally cry is that ALL coaches lie.

Many ask why does it matter. I'll tell you why it matters.

All we hear about is how McDaniels wants a roster full of character and integrity. Well what does all that character matter if the person in charge of them isn't of the same character and integrity? :confused:

Seems a bit of a double standard to me! Again, I wouldn't care about the lying IF it weren't constantly shoved down our throat the importance of character let alone all the deception and cloak and dagger crap (lower extremity injury). It is all beginning to sound a lot like "do as I say not as I do."

Now as I said earlier, I am looking at this as a whole not just the Dumervil situation. There are plenty of 'mis-truths' associated with the Cutler fiasco, plenty with Marshall, some with Hillis, the idea that Bailey and DJ asked for the benching of Marshall. So I am either to believe everybody else was at fault or realize McDaniels is the one common denominator. Where there is smoke there is fire.

Really....I could care less if our coach lies constantly so long as he isn't doing it while preaching something completely different. Again, Caldwell and Dungy embody morals and ethics-It can be done in the NFL. Not ALL coaches lie nor do they need to.

Lonestar
06-23-2010, 11:20 PM
IIRC, you brought up Mikey's lying on many occasions.

And what does that have to do with Josh being held to a higher standard than mikey.
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Lonestar
06-23-2010, 11:31 PM
I am looking at the issue of lying as a whole over the course of McDaniels short tenure here not just the Dumervil situation.

The most ardent McDaniels backers fought tooth and nail for the longest time against the idea that the guy lied.

Now the rally cry is that ALL coaches lie.

Many ask why does it matter. I'll tell you why it matters.

All we hear about is how McDaniels wants a roster full of character and integrity. Well what does all that character matter if the person in charge of them isn't of the same character and integrity? :confused:

Seems a bit of a double standard to me! Again, I wouldn't care about the lying IF it weren't constantly shoved down our throat the importance of character let alone all the deception and cloak and dagger crap (lower extremity injury). It is all beginning to sound a lot like "do as I say not as I do."

Now as I said earlier, I am looking at this as a whole not just the Dumervil situation. There are plenty of 'mis-truths' associated with the Cutler fiasco, plenty with Marshall, some with Hillis, the idea that Bailey and DJ asked for the benching of Marshall. So I am either to believe everybody else was at fault or realize McDaniels is the one common denominator. Where there is smoke there is fire.

Really....I could care less if our coach lies constantly so long as he isn't doing it while preaching something completely different. Again, Caldwell and Dungy embody morals and ethics-It can be done in the NFL. Not ALL coaches lie nor do they need to.

Yet YOU and others have yet to PROVE a lie.

A lie to me is IF you knowingly say something that is not true.

So far IIRC no one has proved the premise.

As far as Doom is concerned.

Josh wants him on the team. Does not mean that Doom will be happy with the contract. Offered

Now if Josh would have said we are going to sign Doom whatecer the cost this team will not be able to play without him. THEN if they did not that is a lie.

While a few may believe that Josh makes all the decisions I'm guessing that he is not the final say on who is on the team and how much they can spend

So is he a kiar when he says he wants Doom on the team for a long time. Logically no he is not.

Now we all know that NO coach would make the statement that I commented on before regardless of price that would be stupid and we all know Josh is not that.
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Tned
06-24-2010, 07:17 AM
And what does that have to do with Josh being held to a higher standard than mikey.
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The point is that you are bashing other posters for saying McDaniels has lied, when you yourself railed over and over about your belief that 'mikey' lied. It seems fairly disingenuous to criticize other posters for doing something you did for years.


I am looking at the issue of lying as a whole over the course of McDaniels short tenure here not just the Dumervil situation.

The most ardent McDaniels backers fought tooth and nail for the longest time against the idea that the guy lied.

Now the rally cry is that ALL coaches lie.

...

Not ALL coaches lie nor do they need to.

I disagree with the last line in your post. I do believe all coaches lie. They lie about injuries, they lie about tactics, about draft strategies, contract negotiations, etc.

As to the first part of your post, I am one of the people that those "ardent McDaniels backers" has been lashing out at for a year and calling a hater, and I believe he has lied in the past (and think it's ridiculous that people try and make the case that he hasn't) and I think lying is part of the job.

jhildebrand
06-24-2010, 09:05 AM
A lie to me is IF you knowingly say something that is not true.




“Let me be as clear as I can about this,” McDaniels said when reached at his office Tuesday afternoon. “We are not trading Jay Cutler — period.”


http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/03/03/mcdaniels-cutler-is-not-going-to-be-traded-period/

Looks like a good ol fashioned lie to me. Nobody forced him to say that. He, again, of his own free will issued that statement. I just checked the roster and Jay Cutler was traded less than a month after that statement.

Tell me how that is a lie. Do me a favor though, do it without acting like I dislike McDaniels or the root of my criticism is his trading Cutler. I soured on Cutler long before most.

jhildebrand
06-24-2010, 09:09 AM
I disagree with the last line in your post. I do believe all coaches lie. They lie about injuries, they lie about tactics, about draft strategies, contract negotiations, etc.

You really think Dungy or Caldwell are ever less than 100% honest? I just can't see it. I guess we have to agree to disagree. I will say I think most in the NFL do lie.



As to the first part of your post, I am one of the people that those "ardent McDaniels backers" has been lashing out at for a year and calling a hater, and I believe he has lied in the past (and think it's ridiculous that people try and make the case that he hasn't) and I think lying is part of the job.

I'm a hater too :lol: Despite the fact that I post things I like about McD as well. Somehow those always go unnoticed :lol:

Like I said above, I think misdirection and even outright lying is done by a lot (even the majority) of people in the NFL. I wouldn't have a problem with it if it didn't fly in the face of all the CHARACTER stuff we keep hearing about.

jhildebrand
06-24-2010, 09:12 AM
By the way, Elvis will be wrapped up before camp or at the latest, the end of it.

T.K.O.
06-24-2010, 09:34 AM
http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/03/03/mcdaniels-cutler-is-not-going-to-be-traded-period/

Looks like a good ol fashioned lie to me. Nobody forced him to say that. He, again, of his own free will issued that statement. I just checked the roster and Jay Cutler was traded less than a month after that statement.

Tell me how that is a lie. Do me a favor though, do it without acting like I dislike McDaniels or the root of my criticism is his trading Cutler. I soured on Cutler long before most.

or maybe THIS happened..........

Monday, April 6, 2009


Bowlen says Cutler's attitude reason for tradeENGLEWOOD, Colo. (AP) Denver Broncos owner Pat Bowlen said in a letter to season ticket holders Saturday that the organization had no choice but to trade Jay Cutler over his insubordination.





Bowlen preached a message of team unity in the e-mail, reiterating that he and new coach Josh McDaniels had reached out many times to Cutler, who didn't respond to their overtures.

Bowlen, who remained largely silent during the six-week rift that ended with Thursday's blockbuster trade with the Chicago Bears, wrote that anybody who puts himself above the team gets a one-way ticket out of town.
"Understand this: it remains about team," Bowlen wrote. "Our franchise has gone to the Super Bowl six times, with three different coaches and with many different players. It has never been about one player, and it never will be. Coach McDaniels shares this vision, and everyone in the organization — players, coaches and staff — must understand and accept this unconditionally. If anyone does not, that person will not be a part of this franchise."
Cutler became disenchanted in Denver when he learned the team had talked about trading him for New England Patriots quarterback Matt Cassel six weeks ago.

He requested a trade last month after a face-to-face meeting with McDaniels failed to clear the air. The Broncos initially balked.

Cutler ignored calls and texts from McDaniels and Bowlen, however, and the owner reached his breaking point Tuesday and told McDaniels and general manager Brian Xanders to try to trade Cutler.

Ravage!!!
06-24-2010, 09:44 AM
The point is that you are bashing other posters for saying McDaniels has lied, when you yourself railed over and over about your belief that 'mikey' lied. It seems fairly disingenuous to criticize other posters for doing something you did for years.

Wait a minute. HOLD ON! Are you saying that JR is a hypocrite? Nooo way!!

Tempus Fugit
06-24-2010, 11:31 AM
The point is that you are bashing other posters for saying McDaniels has lied, when you yourself railed over and over about your belief that 'mikey' lied. It seems fairly disingenuous to criticize other posters for doing something you did for years.



I disagree with the last line in your post. I do believe all coaches lie. They lie about injuries, they lie about tactics, about draft strategies, contract negotiations, etc.

As to the first part of your post, I am one of the people that those "ardent McDaniels backers" has been lashing out at for a year and calling a hater, and I believe he has lied in the past (and think it's ridiculous that people try and make the case that he hasn't) and I think lying is part of the job.

People "try to make the case that he hasn't" because the evidence currently available shows that he didn't lie about the things people are claiming he did lie about. If different evidence is discovered in the future, those people would probably revisit the situation. Until then, receiving a phone call is not the same as placing a phone call.

It's really quite simple. :coffee:

Lonestar
06-24-2010, 11:35 AM
http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/03/03/mcdaniels-cutler-is-not-going-to-be-traded-period/

Looks like a good ol fashioned lie to me. Nobody forced him to say that. He, again, of his own free will issued that statement. I just checked the roster and Jay Cutler was traded less than a month after that statement.

Tell me how that is a lie. Do me a favor though, do it without acting like I dislike McDaniels or the root of my criticism is his trading Cutler. I soured on Cutler long before most.


Do you really believe that Josh traded him and it was not a directive from the owner?

It is plain to everyone one else that it was jays refusal to return Pats calls that caused him to go. (well reasonable fans that is)

Lonestar
06-24-2010, 11:44 AM
People "try to make the case that he hasn't" because the evidence currently available shows that he didn't lie about the things people are claiming he did lie about. If different evidence is discovered in the future, those people would probably revisit the situation. Until then, receiving a phone call is not the same as placing a phone call.

It's really quite simple. :coffee:

an amazing concept asking for proof of a lie.

Lets hope this will put this to bed once and for all.f

Tempus Fugit
06-24-2010, 11:53 AM
an amazing concept asking for proof of a lie.

Lets hope this will put this to bed once and for all.f

It won't end it for everyone, although more rational people can be convinced. However, there are people who are emotionally invested in hating McDaniels. Reason doesn't change that. Hell, Cutler could come out tomorrow and state that he was 100% at fault, and those people would still be blaming McDaniels. It happens all the time, and it's not just limited to sports.

Any change has to come slowly, over time, and has to do more with the hostility burning out than any impact from outside influences. It's just the way some people are wired.

Lonestar
06-24-2010, 12:03 PM
It won't end it for everyone, although more rational people can be convinced. However, there are people who are emotionally invested in hating McDaniels. Reason doesn't change that. Hell, Cutler could come out tomorrow and state that he was 100% at fault, and those people would still be blaming McDaniels. It happens all the time, and it's not just limited to sports.

Any change has to come slowly, over time, and has to do more with the hostility burning out than any impact from outside influences. It's just the way some people are wired.


good logical post but I'm not so sure that it will ever end.

hell the term Jake still invokes panic attacks.

Bosco
06-24-2010, 02:07 PM
The point is that you are bashing other posters for saying McDaniels has lied, when you yourself railed over and over about your belief that 'mikey' lied. It seems fairly disingenuous to criticize other posters for doing something you did for years.

Mike Shanahan, for all intents and purposes, flat out told the media that he had and would mislead them when they questioned him on the time line of a deal (the Lelie/Walker deal IIRC). Then you have the whole cloak and dagger nature of his drafts too.

Not that I think there is anything wrong with a coach doing that, but in this case Jrwiz is factually correct.

Bosco
06-24-2010, 02:11 PM
or maybe THIS happened...

I've pointed this out to him no less than three times now, once including a video where Bowlen flat out states that he made the decision to trade Cutler.

I want to know why Jhildebrand, who by all other accounts seems to be perfectly rational, is still sticking his head in the sand over this.

Ravage!!!
06-24-2010, 02:12 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:

T.K.O.
06-24-2010, 02:20 PM
I've pointed this out to him no less than three times now, once including a video where Bowlen flat out states that he made the decision to trade Cutler.

I want to know why Jhildebrand, who by all other accounts seems to be perfectly rational, is still sticking his head in the sand over this.

it's not "en vogue" to bash the owner..... our 6-0 start was because of nolan,our 2-8 finish was all on mcD,cutler never asked to be traded and hillis is the greatest rb ever traded....
now your up to speed:laugh:

jhildebrand
06-24-2010, 03:46 PM
Mike Shanahan, for all intents and purposes, flat out told the media that he had and would mislead them when they questioned him on the time line of a deal (the Lelie/Walker deal IIRC). Then you have the whole cloak and dagger nature of his drafts too.

Not that I think there is anything wrong with a coach doing that, but in this case Jrwiz is factually correct.

Mike Shanahan wasn't preaching character and prayer circles after practice. Mike Shanahan made no bones about the fact that he would always do anything that was in the best interest of the team. Now, if Shanahan was parading himself as someone who was nothing but of the highest character and honesty, I would slam him too.

Before you think I am some Shanny lover, just know that I wanted him gone when he was close to leaving for the FL job.

jhildebrand
06-24-2010, 03:54 PM
Do you really believe that Josh traded him and it was not a directive from the owner?

It is plain to everyone one else that it was jays refusal to return Pats calls that caused him to go. (well reasonable fans that is)

Reasonable in your book seems to be only those who agree with you 100% on everything. :coffee: Just saying.

jhildebrand
06-24-2010, 04:01 PM
I've pointed this out to him no less than three times now, once including a video where Bowlen flat out states that he made the decision to trade Cutler.

I want to know why Jhildebrand, who by all other accounts seems to be perfectly rational, is still sticking his head in the sand over this.

I don't deny that I can be unreasonable and irrational at times. :cool:

I dont recall any video of Bowlen flat out stating he made the decision to trade Cutler. I would certainly watch it.

However, once again, I picked the first lie on the list. McDaniels didn't need to come out with the: "We aren't trading Jay Cutler...Period." But he and team spokesman Patrick Smyth BOTH did. Why do you suppose that was? :confused:

The fact is they did and less than a month later he was traded. Why bother making the statement? Oh, and if you are arguing that Bowlen made the trade then what does that say about Josh as a leader? He makes a bold proclamation to the media (which the locker room most certainly knew about) yet didn't put up a fight with the owner to keep the "player." After all, McDaniels does have full control of his roster and it wouldn't have been a hardsell to Bowlen who less than three weeks prior had declared "Cutler the man around here." So...now am I to believe that McDaniels just says whatever to the media and hides behind his owner and doesn't have enough backbone to stand up for his word? Is he really that weak? Or do you suppose he was all too happy to see Cutler go and Bowlen stepped in for his rookie coach to take some heat off?

This organization never had these kinds of issues where one side is saying or doing something different than the other until McDaniels came along.

Another interesting point to me is a lot of you sound exactly like the Pats fans to this day who insist NE wasn't cheating with their camcorder :lol:

Bosco
06-24-2010, 05:09 PM
I don't deny that I can be unreasonable and irrational at times. :cool:

I dont recall any video of Bowlen flat out stating he made the decision to trade Cutler. I would certainly watch it. I posted the video in a post aimed directly at you back in April. You didn't respond to it then and unfortunately the video is no longer available, but here's the post.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=954276&postcount=471


Why do you suppose that was? :confused: Because at the time, Cutler wasn't ignoring phone calls from the owner. When Cutler did, it pissed Bowlen off and he stepped in and told Josh to trade him.

Simple as that.

T.K.O.
06-24-2010, 05:20 PM
I posted the video in a post aimed directly at you back in April. You didn't respond to it then and unfortunately the video is no longer available, but here's the post.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=954276&postcount=471

Because at the time, Cutler wasn't ignoring phone calls from the owner. When Cutler did, it pissed Bowlen off and he stepped in and told Josh to trade him.

Simple as that.


but he PWOMISED !

http://www.thevarguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/crying-baby.jpg

HORSEPOWER 56
06-24-2010, 08:01 PM
The bottom line here is that Elvis needs to get re-signed. Funny that when some of us concerned fans get to talking about Dumervil and him being a Bronco long term it always goes one of two ways...

1) The "Dumervil is an overrated, one-trick pony" crowd shows up with their stats, figures, and opinions as to why every other premier pass rusher in the league deserves to be paid they way they are, except Dumervil because he's no good.

-or-

2) The guys that want to defend McDaniels to the death even if nobody was really attacking him in the first place.

It's amazing that in two pretty good sized threads about this, somehow McDaniels, Shanahan, Cutler, and even Kyle Frickin' Orton have been brought up and either vilified or promoted to sainthood.

I like the direction the team seems to be going. Losing Dumervil because we're playing stingy with the money would directly negatively effect my (and obviously several others') opinion of that.

Lonestar
06-24-2010, 08:33 PM
or maybe THIS happened..........

Monday, April 6, 2009


Bowlen says Cutler's attitude reason for tradeENGLEWOOD, Colo. (AP) Denver Broncos owner Pat Bowlen said in a letter to season ticket holders Saturday that the organization had no choice but to trade Jay Cutler over his insubordination.





Bowlen preached a message of team unity in the e-mail, reiterating that he and new coach Josh McDaniels had reached out many times to Cutler, who didn't respond to their overtures.

Bowlen, who remained largely silent during the six-week rift that ended with Thursday's blockbuster trade with the Chicago Bears, wrote that anybody who puts himself above the team gets a one-way ticket out of town.
"Understand this: it remains about team," Bowlen wrote. "Our franchise has gone to the Super Bowl six times, with three different coaches and with many different players. It has never been about one player, and it never will be. Coach McDaniels shares this vision, and everyone in the organization — players, coaches and staff — must understand and accept this unconditionally. If anyone does not, that person will not be a part of this franchise."
Cutler became disenchanted in Denver when he learned the team had talked about trading him for New England Patriots quarterback Matt Cassel six weeks ago.

He requested a trade last month after a face-to-face meeting with McDaniels failed to clear the air. The Broncos initially balked.

Cutler ignored calls and texts from McDaniels and Bowlen, however, and the owner reached his breaking point Tuesday and told McDaniels and general manager Brian Xanders to try to trade Cutler.


just needed to be said again


Bowlen preached a message of team unity in the e-mail, reiterating that he and new coach Josh McDaniels had reached out many times to Cutler, who didn't respond to their overtures.

Bowlen, who remained largely silent during the six-week rift that ended with Thursday's blockbuster trade with the Chicago Bears, wrote that anybody who puts himself above the team gets a one-way ticket out of town.
"Understand this: it remains about team," Bowlen wrote. "Our franchise has gone to the Super Bowl six times, with three different coaches and with many different players. It has never been about one player, and it never will be. Coach McDaniels shares this vision, and everyone in the organization — players, coaches and staff — must understand and accept this unconditionally. If anyone does not, that person will not be a part of this franchise."

dogfish
06-24-2010, 09:18 PM
Funny that when some of us concerned fans get to talking about Dumervil and him being a Bronco long term it always goes one of two ways...

1) The "Dumervil is an overrated, one-trick pony" crowd shows up with their stats, figures, and opinions as to why every other premier pass rusher in the league deserves to be paid they way they are, except Dumervil because he's no good.


that one never fails to amaze me either. . .

it's like the anti-fanboi, "i'm so objective" over-correction syndrome. . . want to be a gritty realist instead of a homer? just make sure to always point out the shortcomings in your homegrown talent, and throw in a couple of comparisons to future hall of famers like peyton manning or ray lewis-- and for bonus points, you can also denigrate said player's worth by reminding everyone that "we haven't won anything since he's been here". . .

(side note-- if online football boards had been as big back in the 90's as they are now, would people have said that shit about elway? oh yea, you bet they would have!)

if you're REALLY committed to going that extra mile to show everyone your scorn for whichever player is the current whipping boy, you can pile on extra derision with insulting nicknames-- some people get very inventive with it. . .



of course, anyone who makes an HONEST attempt at objectivity should just ignore this post-- don't want any more innocent bystanders mowed down in the crossfire. . . naturally, everyone's entitled to their opinion, and i'm not going to bitch if somebody doesn't share my opinion of any specific player's exact worth or long term role on/value to the team-- rant, maybe, but not bitch. . . it's just those few, vocal people who want to intentionally and egregiously belittle his value that piss me off. . .

also, i think it's silly to say he's not as good as suggs-- bullshit! suggs isn't nearly as productive now as he was early in his career. . . also, doom's production absolutely sky-rocketed last year, and anyone who thinks that happened the first year he got to play in the 3-4-- and for a legit defensive coordinator-- purely by coincidence needs their head examined, IMO. . . and there's no reason to believe that a player with his work ethic won't improve as he learns the nuances of playing from a two point stance and doing all the other different things that a linebacker does. . .

not only did he have to learn a new scheme last year like most of our guys, he also had to learn how to time his get-off from a different stance, back-pedal far more than he ever would have at end, learn new containment responsibilities, adjust to new pursuit angles and breaking down in the open field, etc etc. . . and learn to do it all without thinking. . . no frigging wonder he wasn't a polished product in all aspects of the position. . . let's just ignore the fact the he made the transition well enough to make all pro his first damn year playing the position, and was flat-out brilliant at the number one thing he's expected to do. . .

talk about making an impact? i believe i read a stat somewhere that he had the highest percentage of his sacks come on 3rd down of all players who registered over whatever the cutoff was. . . those are the next best thing to turnovers-- might not have the same impact on field positions, but it's still gaining a possession for your team. . .

in contrast to doom's ascending career arc, suggs has leveled off significantly. . . he's never matched either the sack or forced fumble stats that he posted as a rookie. . . doom has 43 sacks over the first four years of his career, and this year he posted career highs in both sacks and tackles, and matched his career high for forced fumbles. . . suggs had a very comparable 40 sacks in his first four seasons, but unlike most great pass rushers, his sack production has declined significantly as he hit his prime. . . only 17.5 sacks over the past three years. . .

it took him all of 2007, 2008 and 2009 to match doom's sack totals from last year, and suggs is clearly the better player?? yea. . . WTF? :confused: yes, i know he's more balanced-- now, as a vet starting his eighth freakin' year on a team with a reknowned defensive system-- but to say he's a better pass rusher than dumervil, or more valuable overall? aw hell no!

and anyone who thinks suggs was an accomplished coverage 'backer his first couple of years playing the position is kidding themselves. . . and while his tackle numbers are higher than elvis, dude is no force against the run. . . at four inches taller he's only listed as 12 pounds heavier-- he may be better at holding the point than elvis, but he's not going to consistently stack the edge against offensive tackles. . .

and his work ethic's not comparable. . . suggs was reportedly overweight and sluggish last year, and i've heard it suggested that he's kinda mailed it in since he got the big money-- and that he's had a tendency to miss significant snaps during crunchtime due to either poor conditioning or milking minor in-game injuries. . . etc. . .

just another reason that doom's value is absolutely comparable to suggs. . . some guys you just don't worry about because they're intrinsically motivated-- brian dawkins, for example. . . doom's had a reputation as a high-motor guy going back to college, and his professionalism and character are obvious. . . you find that in a premiere young edge rusher who's proven his worth in multiple schemes and positions, and hasn't missed a game since he entered the lineup almost four years ago, and that should be the kind of guy you're willing to pay to keep. . . particularly when you've taken a hard stance against talented and productive players over their professionalism/maturity/committment, and this guy is pretty much the embodiment of what you want in that respect. . .


guys like suggs and jared allen have bigger reps because they've played for better defenses. . . i can only imagine the havock a guy like rex ryan could've unleashed with dumervil alongside the rest of the hosses on that baltimore defense, especially if he'd had the same years of top coaching and development in a system that was at least contiguous if not completely consistent. . .

TXBRONC
06-24-2010, 09:31 PM
that one never fails to amaze me either. . .

it's like the anti-fanboi, "i'm so objective" over-correction syndrome. . . want to be a gritty realist instead of a homer? just make sure to always point out the shortcomings in your homegrown talent, and throw in a couple of comparisons to future hall of famers like peyton manning or ray lewis-- and for bonus points, you can also denigrate said player's worth by reminding everyone that "we haven't won anything since he's been here". . .

(side note-- if online football boards had been as big back in the 90's as they are now, would people have said that shit about elway? oh yea, you bet they would have!)

if you're REALLY committed to going that extra mile to show everyone your scorn for whichever player is the current whipping boy, you can pile on extra derision with insulting nicknames-- some people get very inventive with it. . .



of course, anyone who makes an HONEST attempt at objectivity should just ignore this post-- don't want any more innocent bystanders mowed down in the crossfire. . . naturally, everyone's entitled to their opinion, and i'm not going to bitch if somebody doesn't share my opinion of any specific player's exact worth or long term role on/value to the team-- rant, maybe, but not bitch. . . it's just those few, vocal people who want to intentionally and egregiously belittle his value that piss me off. . .

also, i think it's silly to say he's not as good as suggs-- bullshit! suggs isn't nearly as productive now as he was early in his career. . . also, doom's production absolutely sky-rocketed last year, and anyone who thinks that happened the first year he got to play in the 3-4-- and for a legit defensive coordinator-- purely by coincidence needs their head examined, IMO. . . and there's no reason to believe that a player with his work ethic won't improve as he learns the nuances of playing from a two point stance and doing all the other different things that a linebacker does. . .

not only did he have to learn a new scheme last year like most of our guys, he also had to learn how to time his get-off from a different stance, back-pedal far more than he ever would have at end, learn new containment responsibilities, adjust to new pursuit angles and breaking down in the open field, etc etc. . . and learn to do it all without thinking. . . no frigging wonder he wasn't a polished product in all aspects of the position. . . let's just ignore the fact the he made the transition well enough to make all pro his first damn year playing the position, and was flat-out brilliant at the number one thing he's expected to do. . .

talk about making an impact? i believe i read a stat somewhere that he had the highest percentage of his sacks come on 3rd down of all players who registered over whatever the cutoff was. . . those are the next best thing to turnovers-- might not have the same impact on field positions, but it's still gaining a possession for your team. . .

in contrast to doom's ascending career arc, suggs has leveled off significantly. . . he's never matched either the sack or forced fumble stats that he posted as a rookie. . . doom has 43 sacks over the first four years of his career, and this year he posted career highs in both sacks and tackles, and matched his career high for forced fumbles. . . suggs had a very comparable 40 sacks in his first four seasons, but unlike most great pass rushers, his sack production has declined significantly as he hit his prime. . . only 17.5 sacks over the past three years. . .

it took him all of 2007, 2008 and 2009 to match doom's sack totals from last year, and suggs is clearly the better player?? yea. . . WTF? :confused: yes, i know he's more balanced-- now, as a vet starting his eighth freakin' year on a team with a reknowned defensive system-- but to say he's a better pass rusher than dumervil, or more valuable overall? aw hell no!

his work ethic's not comparable. . . suggs was reportedly overweight and sluggish last year, and i've heard it suggested that he's kinda mailed it in since he got the big money-- and that he's had a tendency to miss significant snaps during crunchtime due to either poor conditioning or milking minor in-game injuries. . . etc. . .

just another reason that doom's value is absolutely comparable to suggs. . . some guys you just don't worry about because they're intrinsically motivated-- brian dawkins, for example. . . doom's had a reputation as a high-motor guy going back to college, and his professionalism and character are obvious. . . you find that in a premiere young edge rusher who's proven his worth in multiple schemes and positions, and hasn't missed a game since he entered the lineup almost four years ago, and that should be the kind of guy you're willing to pay to keep. . . particularly when you've taken a hard stance against talented and productive players over their professionalism/maturity/committment, and this guy is pretty much the embodiment of what you want in that respect. . .


guys like suggs and jared allen have bigger reps because they've played for better defenses. . . i can only imagine the havock a guy like rex ryan could've unleashed with dumervil alongside the rest of the hosses on that baltimore defense, especially if he'd had the same years of top coaching and development in a system that was at least contiguous if not completely consistent. . .

Suggs' first two seasons in the League he had double digit sacks, since then he has had none. What I fined absolutely stupid is people keep bring up that Dumervil needs to improve on playing in coverage. Well guess what folks when you're rushing the passer the MAJORITY of the time it's rather hard to play in pass coverage.

Lonestar
06-24-2010, 09:55 PM
good post Dog windy but good.

You make some points about Suggs and Dware

But when they got their big reward they were already accomplished at something other that knuckles in the dirt pass rushing.

All the other comparisons by dredging up stats trying to support Doom are useless.

IF Josh and Xman think he is worth that kind of gold then more power to him.

But I think not.

They do not see the awesomeness that many of the fans do. (or he would be signed by now)

They look at real tape, analyze every play.

So for now I'll go with their opinions and budget restrictions that Pat no doubt put on them after wasting hundreds of millions on busts over the years.

jhildebrand
06-24-2010, 10:33 PM
I posted the video in a post aimed directly at you back in April. You didn't respond to it then and unfortunately the video is no longer available, but here's the post.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=954276&postcount=471

Because at the time, Cutler wasn't ignoring phone calls from the owner. When Cutler did, it pissed Bowlen off and he stepped in and told Josh to trade him.

Simple as that.

So did Bowlen trade Cutler or did he give McDaniels the green light? It keeps changing....

As for the video...I wish I could have seen it.

At the end of the day Cutler doesn't matter (thank God). What does matter is signing Dumervil. I know they will get it done and when they do I will give McDaniels the kudos as they will be well deserved. However, there always seems to be some drama or conflict around the guy in the way of player personnel and it doesn't bode well for the team. It rarely does.

I think it speaks volumes that a guy of Champ's caliber is pitching a fit about his deal (not that he is necessarily right). I think there is still some division on the team that needs to work itself out.

jhildebrand
06-24-2010, 10:38 PM
that one never fails to amaze me either. . .

it's like the anti-fanboi, "i'm so objective" over-correction syndrome. . . want to be a gritty realist instead of a homer? just make sure to always point out the shortcomings in your homegrown talent, and throw in a couple of comparisons to future hall of famers like peyton manning or ray lewis-- and for bonus points, you can also denigrate said player's worth by reminding everyone that "we haven't won anything since he's been here". . .

(side note-- if online football boards had been as big back in the 90's as they are now, would people have said that shit about elway? oh yea, you bet they would have!)

if you're REALLY committed to going that extra mile to show everyone your scorn for whichever player is the current whipping boy, you can pile on extra derision with insulting nicknames-- some people get very inventive with it. . .



of course, anyone who makes an HONEST attempt at objectivity should just ignore this post-- don't want any more innocent bystanders mowed down in the crossfire. . . naturally, everyone's entitled to their opinion, and i'm not going to bitch if somebody doesn't share my opinion of any specific player's exact worth or long term role on/value to the team-- rant, maybe, but not bitch. . . it's just those few, vocal people who want to intentionally and egregiously belittle his value that piss me off. . .

also, i think it's silly to say he's not as good as suggs-- bullshit! suggs isn't nearly as productive now as he was early in his career. . . also, doom's production absolutely sky-rocketed last year, and anyone who thinks that happened the first year he got to play in the 3-4-- and for a legit defensive coordinator-- purely by coincidence needs their head examined, IMO. . . and there's no reason to believe that a player with his work ethic won't improve as he learns the nuances of playing from a two point stance and doing all the other different things that a linebacker does. . .

not only did he have to learn a new scheme last year like most of our guys, he also had to learn how to time his get-off from a different stance, back-pedal far more than he ever would have at end, learn new containment responsibilities, adjust to new pursuit angles and breaking down in the open field, etc etc. . . and learn to do it all without thinking. . . no frigging wonder he wasn't a polished product in all aspects of the position. . . let's just ignore the fact the he made the transition well enough to make all pro his first damn year playing the position, and was flat-out brilliant at the number one thing he's expected to do. . .

talk about making an impact? i believe i read a stat somewhere that he had the highest percentage of his sacks come on 3rd down of all players who registered over whatever the cutoff was. . . those are the next best thing to turnovers-- might not have the same impact on field positions, but it's still gaining a possession for your team. . .

in contrast to doom's ascending career arc, suggs has leveled off significantly. . . he's never matched either the sack or forced fumble stats that he posted as a rookie. . . doom has 43 sacks over the first four years of his career, and this year he posted career highs in both sacks and tackles, and matched his career high for forced fumbles. . . suggs had a very comparable 40 sacks in his first four seasons, but unlike most great pass rushers, his sack production has declined significantly as he hit his prime. . . only 17.5 sacks over the past three years. . .

it took him all of 2007, 2008 and 2009 to match doom's sack totals from last year, and suggs is clearly the better player?? yea. . . WTF? :confused: yes, i know he's more balanced-- now, as a vet starting his eighth freakin' year on a team with a reknowned defensive system-- but to say he's a better pass rusher than dumervil, or more valuable overall? aw hell no!

and anyone who thinks suggs was an accomplished coverage 'backer his first couple of years playing the position is kidding themselves. . . and while his tackle numbers are higher than elvis, dude is no force against the run. . . at four inches taller he's only listed as 12 pounds heavier-- he may be better at holding the point than elvis, but he's not going to consistently stack the edge against offensive tackles. . .

and his work ethic's not comparable. . . suggs was reportedly overweight and sluggish last year, and i've heard it suggested that he's kinda mailed it in since he got the big money-- and that he's had a tendency to miss significant snaps during crunchtime due to either poor conditioning or milking minor in-game injuries. . . etc. . .

just another reason that doom's value is absolutely comparable to suggs. . . some guys you just don't worry about because they're intrinsically motivated-- brian dawkins, for example. . . doom's had a reputation as a high-motor guy going back to college, and his professionalism and character are obvious. . . you find that in a premiere young edge rusher who's proven his worth in multiple schemes and positions, and hasn't missed a game since he entered the lineup almost four years ago, and that should be the kind of guy you're willing to pay to keep. . . particularly when you've taken a hard stance against talented and productive players over their professionalism/maturity/committment, and this guy is pretty much the embodiment of what you want in that respect. . .


guys like suggs and jared allen have bigger reps because they've played for better defenses. . . i can only imagine the havock a guy like rex ryan could've unleashed with dumervil alongside the rest of the hosses on that baltimore defense, especially if he'd had the same years of top coaching and development in a system that was at least contiguous if not completely consistent. . .

People bought the same junk Shanahan was selling about how easy it would be to replace Hayward and Berry and why they weren't worth the money.

Dumervil is the first player since those two worth a damn.

Oh, and had Shanahan paid those two maybe the 05 AFCCG might have been much different. :coffee:

Its no coincidence that Champ looked like his old self again the same year Dumervil records 17 sacks! I suppose I am just seeing things as I want to see them :shocked:

TXBRONC
06-24-2010, 10:48 PM
People bought the same junk Shanahan was selling about how easy it would be to replace Hayward and Berry and why they weren't worth the money.

Dumervil is the first player since those two worth a damn.

Oh, and had Shanahan paid those two maybe the 05 AFCCG might have been much different. :coffee:

Its no coincidence that Champ looked like his old self again the same year Dumervil records 17 sacks! I suppose I am just seeing things as I want to see them :shocked:

It's certainly possible that things would have turned out differently had Shanahan paid either or both of them. However, the other side of ball was making it's fair share of mistakes who knowns. :whoknows:

Finally imho Dumervil is better than both of those guys.

jhildebrand
06-24-2010, 10:56 PM
It's certainly possible that things would have turned out differently had Shanahan paid either or both of them. However, the other side of ball was making it's fair share of mistakes who knowns. :whoknows:

Finally imho Dumervil is better than both of those guys.

It's absolutely preposterous to state Dumervil is better than those two. While his stats are better his stature leaves something to be desired :lol:

/ sarcasm

TXBRONC
06-24-2010, 11:04 PM
It's absolutely preposterous to state Dumervil is better than those two. While his stats are better his stature leaves something to be desired :lol:

/ sarcasm

Natural leverage is so overrated. :tsk:

Bosco
06-25-2010, 01:40 AM
So did Bowlen trade Cutler or did he give McDaniels the green light? It keeps changing... To be absolutely technical, Pat told Josh to make the trade, but then stepped out of the way and let Josh handle it from there, hence Josh being the one picking Orton as Cutler's replacement and some of the confusion in the media about who was calling the shots.

Essentially, Pat said "Trade his ass. You can pick who/what we get for him, but I want him out of Denver".

Northman
06-25-2010, 05:00 AM
i can only imagine the havock a guy like rex ryan could've unleashed with dumervil alongside the rest of the hosses on that baltimore defense, especially if he'd had the same years of top coaching and development in a system that was at least contiguous if not completely consistent. . .

Nah, your out of your mind Dog. He's just a 1/3 of LB and 100% midget.

ydave77
06-25-2010, 10:46 AM
that one never fails to amaze me either. . .

it's like the anti-fanboi, "i'm so objective" over-correction syndrome. . . want to be a gritty realist instead of a homer? just make sure to always point out the shortcomings in your homegrown talent, and throw in a couple of comparisons to future hall of famers like peyton manning or ray lewis-- and for bonus points, you can also denigrate said player's worth by reminding everyone that "we haven't won anything since he's been here". . .

(side note-- if online football boards had been as big back in the 90's as they are now, would people have said that shit about elway? oh yea, you bet they would have!)


I agree that Doom deserves top money. I would be inclined to suggest top 3 money for his position...and cutting it by 10%. The owners want an 18% Cap reduction, 9-10% seems like the middle ground.
I think there should be a discount applied due to the uncertainty of the new CBA.

Do you think that the FO should ignore the possible, yes I know only possible, ramifications of upcoming labor talks? I know obviously we are currently working under the system of the current CBA, and it could be argued he shouldn't be paid upon proposed changes, but he is also under contract until next yr. There is little to know chance the union will actually not have to concede something along the lines of contracts.
If Doom wants to be paid before the new CBA tamps down costs, then he might have to take a little discount. not to mention gets his guaranteed money before a possible lockout. Thats my 2cents...