Sonics Move to OKC: Your Thoughts?

[NightTrainLayne]

The city of Seattle, and the Supersonics Oklahoma City-based ownership group are getting ready to battle in court over their proposed move to OKC.

I'm biased, what does everyone else think?

Here's an article regarding the litigation. A poll conducted last month showed that the majority (around 2/3) of Seattle-area residents didn't care if the Sonics moved, but the city and some vociferous fans are fighting the move.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/365556_trial03.html


A Sonics trial may get ugly -- expert says
NBA should push for fast settlement, veteran lawyer says
By GREG JOHNS
P-I REPORTER

With less than two weeks remaining until the start of the city's trial against the Sonics, an attorney unaffiliated with either party says this could turn into the legal equivalent of a barroom brawl if the case gets to court.

The looming question now is whether the struggle over the Sonics' lease issue at KeyArena will reach Judge Marsha Pechman's courtroom for the opening gavel on June 16 or if the sides will come to some sort of pretrial agreement.

Longtime Seattle attorney Randy Aliment said he's surprised the situation has gone this far without resolution and notes that more than 90 percent of cases are resolved out of court.

From Aliment's perspective, both parties in this particular battle have significant motivation to find a tenable solution, as does the NBA.

"You'd think the NBA would pull both sides into a room, knock their heads together and say, 'Let's get this resolved,' because it will be a bloodbath in that courtroom," said Aliment, whose Williams, Kastner & Gibbs firm represented Ken Behring when the former Seahawks owner was attempting to move his team to Los Angeles in 1996.

Aliment remembers armed guards in the lobby of his firm's office during the highly emotional Behring situation, which ultimately was settled out of court when Behring agreed to sell the Seahawks to Paul Allen.

The Sonics case could get even more heated if it reaches Pechman's U.S. District courtroom, given the lengthy run-up of legal machinations, a number of well-publicized e-mails and other evidence and the fact the NBA has already approved a move of the franchise to Oklahoma City once it receives legal clearance from its KeyArena lease that is scheduled to expire after the 2009-10 season.

Aliment said both sides have hired the best trial lawyers in Seattle and he expects a no-holds-barred situation should the case proceed as scheduled.

"You've definitely got a three-ring circus going now," Aliment said. "From a straight legal standpoint, this thing is just about unprecedented. I'm thinking one of the only other comparable situations was when Al Davis and the Oakland Raiders filed suit and things got stupid down there. That one actually went to trial."

Davis filed an antitrust lawsuit against the NFL in 1982 when the league attempted to block his move to Los Angeles. Aliment said the issues are different in this case and in a suit filed by former Sonics owner Howard Schultz seeking to rescind the sale to Clay Bennett's ownership group, but the bottom line remains.

"In legal battles, it's all about a dispute," Aliment said. "Whether you're talking about antitrust or breach of contract or whatever, it's a fistfight. So lawyers are reaching into their bag to figure out whatever legal theory will rule the day.

"Here you've got breach of lease, you've got breach of contract, you've got fraud. But bottom line, what you really have is a fight. Somebody is trying to steal the team, somebody wants to keep the team, and that's all the city knows and all Clay Bennett knows

"That's why the NBA has to be looking at this thing saying, 'We've got to put a stop to this' or who knows where the fallout will end? Because once that fistfight erupts in court, it's like a bar where eventually it spills out into the street. You'd think somebody would want to stop this before it goes that far."

Aliment feels NBA commissioner David Stern should be concerned about how Seattle's situation is being viewed by other cities around the league and the precedent that would be set by the upcoming court battle, not to mention the potential ugliness of the Sonics playing two lame-duck seasons at KeyArena after the league has already approved their departure.

Both the city and the Sonics' owners have risks in proceeding to trial. Even if they win, the Sonics almost surely would face an appeals process that would prevent the team from moving to Oklahoma City by next season, which means at least another year of $30 million in losses while playing at KeyArena.

Additionally, Schultz's lawsuit looms as another hurdle in Bennett's path.

The city runs the risk of pushing for a solution without a clear-cut victory, given that the Sonics will be free to leave in two years even if the city wins its case to enforce the lease, unless Schultz's suit also succeeds.

Additionally, Aliment says that while the city's case appears strong, judges frequently hesitate to keep two warring parties together in a binding lease agreement and often award financial damages instead of insisting on a "specific performance" request such as forcing the Sonics to play their games in a bad situation.

Is there room to settle?

"From the city's standpoint, forced occupation here is going to be a difficult proposition because the team would only be here two years, the NBA is going to be upset and the prospects for a team long-term are problematic," Aliment said. "Some type of mediated solution where Bennett can take his toys back to Oklahoma and the city gets a different team, or Bennett gets a new team and we keep our Sonics, would obviously be the best.

"But it's going to take participation by the NBA and other owners to approve something like that," he said. "That's a tall order, as evidenced by the fact it hasn't been done yet."

If the sides are negotiating, they're doing so quietly, which would be expected at this juncture. Most cases come down to last-minute settlements and it's possible for an agreement to be made even during or after a trial. The questions are: Who has the most leverage and are both sides willing to give?

Pechman has a pretrial conference scheduled for Friday, at which she'll hand down rulings on motions by both sides, outline trial requirements and see if there is settlement progress.

From Aliment's perspective, it's surprising the situation has come this far.

"It can still happen and I have no firsthand knowledge of any of this," he said. "But one would think the NBA would get these parties together and say, 'Clay Bennett, you have a team. Seattle, you want a team. Let's let the team go to Oklahoma City and you will get your team in (some future) season.' And then have a squaring up of the money."

Should the battle actually be waged in court, Aliment says it's possible there will be no winners in the big picture, given the black eye the NBA would receive as well as the mixed legal bag that likely will remain even once a decision is rendered.

"It's like if your kid comes home and says, 'I got in a fight today, but I beat him,' " Aliment said. "And you look at your kid and his face is all bloodied and bruised. I just think someone has to step in and stop this thing and find a solution."

[turftoad]

I think it sucks when a Pro Team moves, in any sport. I know it's all about the money but what about the fans??

Sonics have been in Seattle for ever. I'm pretty sure they have a pretty decent fan base.
This isn't the magnitude of when the Browns moved to Balt but still the same deal. I'm glad the Browns finally got to go home and would hate to see Seattle lose thier NBA franchise.

[broncogirl7]

This would definately bring OKC to the big-time, since they have no professional teams that I am aware of...

[OB]

***EDIT*** Trade ray ray then move his former team 90 miles away :mad: and move him back home on top of it - uuugggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

IDK - I will go see them if they play the celts, pistons or bobcats - i will take my son to go see them if they play the lakers

Yes - its a showdown between me and my son in the finals for Bball this year - how did i raise a giants fan, and a lakers fan - at least he is somewhat of a yankees fan

kids :tsk: :tsk:

[NightTrainLayne]

This would definately bring OKC to the big-time, since they have no professional teams that I am aware of...

Right, no professional teams. . .unless you count OU football. :D

I don't like the impression that we are "stealing" a team, but the Sonics have been losing money consistently at Key arena, and Seattle has been adament in saying that they won't spend any tax-payer money to build a new arena or renovate Key and update the lease.

So, the previous owner (Starbucks CEO) put the team up for sale and the OKC group bought it.

They even agreed to make a good-faith effort for 12 months to keep the team there and secure a new arena/lease, but Seattle wouldn't budge.

Seattle fans are arguing that they didn't follow through with the "good-faith" effort, but while Seattle has done nothing but complain, OKC voter approved the extension of an expiring sales-tax to put about $120 million more into the 6-year old Ford center to bring it up to NBA standards, and the State approved the extension of a tax exemption to the team for a few years which is normally used to lure big businesses to the state.

In other words, all Seattle has done is argue that the Sonics have a lease with them, while OKC has put their money where their mouth is.

[MOtorboat]

Right, no professional teams. . .unless you count OU football. :D

I don't like the impression that we are "stealing" a team, but the Sonics have been losing money consistently at Key arena, and Seattle has been adament in saying that they won't spend any tax-payer money to build a new arena or renovate Key and update the lease.

So, the previous owner (Starbucks CEO) put the team up for sale and the OKC group bought it.

They even agreed to make a good-faith effort for 12 months to keep the team there and secure a new arena/lease, but Seattle wouldn't budge.

Seattle fans are arguing that they didn't follow through with the "good-faith" effort, but while Seattle has done nothing but complain, OKC voter approved the extension of an expiring sales-tax to put about $120 million more into the 6-year old Ford center to bring it up to NBA standards, and the State approved the extension of a tax exemption to the team for a few years which is normally used to lure big businesses to the state.

In other words, all Seattle has done is argue that the Sonics have a lease with them, while OKC has put their money where their mouth is.

I wish it was KC...I'd love to watch Durant night in and night out. And Jeff Green and Luke Ridnour. Tack on the No. 4 overall pick from this year, and that could be a very good team in the future.

OKC will get their money's worth if the FO is worth anything. Hell, they've pretty much lucked into a team full of young potential stars.

Ford has them drafting Bayless. Man, I wish it was in KC...Bayless is going to be awesome.

Plus, my Nugs would come to town twice a year....

[NightTrainLayne]

I wish it was KC...I'd love to watch Durant night in and night out. And Jeff Green and Luke Ridnour. Tack on the No. 4 overall pick from this year, and that could be a very good team in the future.

OKC will get their money's worth if the FO is worth anything. Hell, they've pretty much lucked into a team full of young potential stars.

Ford has them drafting Bayless. Man, I wish it was in KC...Bayless is going to be awesome.

Plus, my Nugs would come to town twice a year....

Clay Bennett was part of the ownership group that built the Spurs before their run. I think the FO will do fine. They are building for the future for sure.

[Lonestar]

personally I do not see the fan base in OKC, my daughter goes to school there and While I have not seen all of OKC I do not see them as being able to support the team..

I know that the hornets practiced and played a few games there last year while they repaired the home court in New Orleans..

BUt I do not see it maybe I'm wrong, show me the way..

[Davii]

Just glad it wasn't the Hornets after Katrina.

[NightTrainLayne]

personally I do not see the fan base in OKC, my daughter goes to school there and While I have not seen all of OKC I do not see them as being able to support the team..

I know that the hornets practiced and played a few games there last year while they repaired the home court in New Orleans..

BUt I do not see it maybe I'm wrong, show me the way..

A few games? The Hornets played two full seasons here, and we had one of the top attendance figures for the whole league despite the fact that the Hornets were never in playoff contention either year, and were going back to New Orleans (read: lame duck).

Luckily for N.O., they began to produce this year. During the first half of the season the stands in N.O. were virtually empty.

[Davii]

A few games? The Hornets played two full seasons here, and we had one of the top attendance figures for the whole league despite the fact that the Hornets were never in playoff contention either year, and were going back to New Orleans (read: lame duck).

Luckily for N.O., they began to produce this year. During the first half of the season the stands in N.O. were virtually empty.

They actually lowered ticket prices. Gave a ton away as well. We had 500 free tickets on base for every game.

[Lonestar]

A few games? The Hornets played two full seasons here, and we had one of the top attendance figures for the whole league despite the fact that the Hornets were never in playoff contention either year, and were going back to New Orleans (read: lame duck).

Luckily for N.O., they began to produce this year. During the first half of the season the stands in N.O. were virtually empty.

Thanks I had not heard that just that they had not filled the stands most of the time.. there was something I read in the newspaper also about even though they did have pretty good attendance they had split the games with another city for their home games they had mentioned if the folks their could afford to pay for a a fill season of home games .. after the novelty wore off.


I'm not Dissing OKC, it is a place I think I could like to live.. Just heard some of the rumors.. And read one really good article in the paper about it.. I did not pay much attention at the time because from the article it sounded like the chances were so remote of them moving it did not matter much..

If I thought I could get a decent job up there I would almost move in a heart beat..

[G_Money]

Right, no professional teams. . .unless you count OU football. :D

I don't like the impression that we are "stealing" a team, but the Sonics have been losing money consistently at Key arena, and Seattle has been adament in saying that they won't spend any tax-payer money to build a new arena or renovate Key and update the lease.

So, the previous owner (Starbucks CEO) put the team up for sale and the OKC group bought it.

They even agreed to make a good-faith effort for 12 months to keep the team there and secure a new arena/lease, but Seattle wouldn't budge.

Seattle fans are arguing that they didn't follow through with the "good-faith" effort, but while Seattle has done nothing but complain, OKC voter approved the extension of an expiring sales-tax to put about $120 million more into the 6-year old Ford center to bring it up to NBA standards, and the State approved the extension of a tax exemption to the team for a few years which is normally used to lure big businesses to the state.

In other words, all Seattle has done is argue that the Sonics have a lease with them, while OKC has put their money where their mouth is.


This isn't true.

The city of Seattle upgraded Key Arena back in the day rather than build a new arena because at the time the owners of the Sonics didn't want a building that could get an ice hockey team to Seattle to compete for dollars. So they specifically wanted the arena to be small.

So the city upgraded the existing facilities and that's it, as asked.

Then a few years later the Sonics complained about not making as much money as other teams. The city told them to kiss off on building them a 400 million dollar stadium with no funds from the owners.

Clay came in, paid Starbucks guy a ton of cash with the expressed intent of moving it out of Seattle.

Seattle offered to renovate the arena again, or put up some of the money for some glitzy new arena. Clay was not interested.

There's just not a lot of available space in Seattle to build - it's framed in between the sound and some lakes, so space is at a premium. People across the bridge in Bellevue started looking at alternate sites.

Clay was not interested. 400 million of taxpayer money or nothing. He wanted to get a no vote so he could get the team out of town.

I don't blame the people of OKC for wanting a team - they've shown they'd be good for one.

But I lived in Seattle for 8 years, and they built stadiums for the Mariners and the Seahawks. They'd build one for the Sonics, if there were a reasonable proposal.

There isn't, and there won't be. OKC isn't stealing a team from Seattle, but (with the help of the Starbucks moron) Clay and his buddies like Stern (who inducted him into the state sports HOF btw...) are.

~G

[BeefStew25]

This move is awful, and David Stern is a ******* of the highest proportions.

[NightTrainLayne]

Thanks I had not heard that just that they had not filled the stands most of the time.. there was something I read in the newspaper also about even though they did have pretty good attendance they had split the games with another city for their home games they had mentioned if the folks their could afford to pay for a a fill season of home games .. after the novelty wore off.


I'm not Dissing OKC, it is a place I think I could like to live.. Just heard some of the rumors.. And read one really good article in the paper about it.. I did not pay much attention at the time because from the article it sounded like the chances were so remote of them moving it did not matter much..

If I thought I could get a decent job up there I would almost move in a heart beat..

The Hornets played all but 6 of their home games last season (2006-07) at the Ford center. The other 6 were in New Orleans.

For the two years they averaged over 18,000 fans/home game. I couldn't find a ranking for the 06/07 season, but for the 05/06 season they ranked 11th out of the 30 NBA teams for attendence.

[NightTrainLayne]

This isn't true.

The city of Seattle upgraded Key Arena back in the day rather than build a new arena because at the time the owners of the Sonics didn't want a building that could get an ice hockey team to Seattle to compete for dollars. So they specifically wanted the arena to be small.

So the city upgraded the existing facilities and that's it, as asked.

Then a few years later the Sonics complained about not making as much money as other teams. The city told them to kiss off on building them a 400 million dollar stadium with no funds from the owners.

Clay came in, paid Starbucks guy a ton of cash with the expressed intent of moving it out of Seattle.

Seattle offered to renovate the arena again, or put up some of the money for some glitzy new arena. Clay was not interested.

There's just not a lot of available space in Seattle to build - it's framed in between the sound and some lakes, so space is at a premium. People across the bridge in Bellevue started looking at alternate sites.

Clay was not interested. 400 million of taxpayer money or nothing. He wanted to get a no vote so he could get the team out of town.

I don't blame the people of OKC for wanting a team - they've shown they'd be good for one.

But I lived in Seattle for 8 years, and they built stadiums for the Mariners and the Seahawks. They'd build one for the Sonics, if there were a reasonable proposal.

There isn't, and there won't be. OKC isn't stealing a team from Seattle, but (with the help of the Starbucks moron) Clay and his buddies like Stern (who inducted him into the state sports HOF btw...) are.

~G

The City of Seattle has not proposed to renovate Key arena (at least not officially).

I can see your point that Clay is asking for a "glitzy" new arena and Seattle won't pay for it, but one of the major problems is the way the lease is structured. That's as big of a problem as the building itself.

Just renovating Key without adjusting the lease won't help the team be profitable.

[G_Money]

Seattle renovated the Key Arena 10 years ago at the direction of the Sonics. The town isn't really happy that this 100 million dollar investment is viewed as nothing by the new owner since it didn't happen on his watch. But they DID offer a remodel to Schultz and one to Clay.

Clay is asking for 500+ million dollars (especially after cost overruns that always happen and that he is not willing to pay for) for his arena in order to keep the Sonics in town. The city of Renton tried to get a deal done, but the state legislature crushed them, partly because the eastern half of the state doesn't understand why they should have to keep paying taxes for facilities they'll never use.

Clay is claiming he needs to move the town because of losses he is helping to create with his running of the team and his face-plants that caused people to believe he WAS leaving town and therefore try not to get invested in the new youth of the Sonics.

The Muckleshoot Indian Tribe offered to build everything Clay asked for around the City of Auburn (between Seattle and Tacoma), and his resounding silence to this offer said everything that needed to be said.

Sports teams increase in value over time, not decrease. Ask Schultz - he cried about losses and sold the team for a HUGE profit, wiping out those losses and more. If Clay holds the team for 10 years, eating $20 million in losses the whole time, and sells at the end for 700 million, then he didn't really LOSE any money, did he?

Buying a team and demanding a new arena within 12 months or he'll move it to a different city isn't a business decision - it's extortion. Conversely, playoff runs are really conducive to strongarming a couple hundred million out of local government - especially if you're not cheap and will throw in some money.

Tentative feelers were put out to see how Clay felt about 200ish million from the government - he didn't feel that.

Bellevue talked about getting a different site - he didn't like that.

The Key Arena is not the Kingdome, with stuff falling on the field and staircases crumbling. It's not the Vet in Philly. It isn't the best arena in the country, but it's not a hellhole. It's just small and without the luxury boxes that will make Clay even more rich than he already is. If Clay wants it condemned and a sparkling palace of basketball built, he'll have to come up with something better than "because otherwise I'll take this team out of a town I don't care about and put it into one I do care about."

But that's what he wants to do and that's what he will do.

~G

[G_Money]

The City of Seattle has not proposed to renovate Key arena (at least not officially).

I can see your point that Clay is asking for a "glitzy" new arena and Seattle won't pay for it, but one of the major problems is the way the lease is structured. That's as big of a problem as the building itself.

Just renovating Key without adjusting the lease won't help the team be profitable.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2544711


SEATTLE -- New Seattle SuperSonics owner Clay Bennett toured Safeco Field this week, believing the $517 million baseball stadium should be the model for what an NBA arena in the Puget Sound region can be.


In its present state, KeyArena, the SuperSonics current home, doesn't fit that definition, Bennett told a Wednesday news conference.

"As we've said before, we don't believe KeyArena is a satisfactory facility," he said.

Bennett made his first trip to Seattle since buying the Sonics and WNBA Storm from the Basketball Club of Seattle on July 18 for $350 million. When Bennett bought the team he said that whether the Sonics remain in Seattle would depend on whether the team can agree with the city to renovate KeyArena, or replace it with another arena in the region.

Bennett, chairman of the Oklahoma City-based Professional Basketball Club LLC, said his group is not ruling out a possible remodel of KeyArena, but made clear he'd rather put together a "world-class" sports and entertainment complex on a yet to be determined site.

"That's the idea we have in mind, the development of the finest building in the world. Where that ends up, I don't know," Bennett said. "We want to develop that profile ... and everything in our minds today is on the table."

While in Seattle, Bennett met with local and civic leaders, including Mayor Greg Nickels. He also met with Gov. Chris Gregoire on Wednesday afternoon, before returning to Oklahoma City.

"He envisions a world-class, multipurpose facility which I believe is good for our communities and our state," Gregoire said in a statement. "Mr. Bennett assured me that he and his partners will present a business plan to the public and decision-makers so that we can work together to keep the teams in our state."

Nickels expressed the city's desire to keep the Sonics at KeyArena and said previous offers for a remodel are still available.

"The deal offered to the previous ownership group is still on the table," Nickels said.

KeyArena was remodeled in 1994-95 and the Sonics have a lease until 2010 with the city. The team and NBA commissioner David Stern both have said that lease is the league's most unfavorable to a team and must be changed -- or better yet, a new place must be built with a new lease -- for the teams to prosper in the region.

Also, I don't really see how lease structure is an issue when the lease is almost up. Re-negotiation of the terms of the lease would almost have to come into play before any new lease would be signed, wouldn't they?

~G

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/basketball/365719_trial04.html

Sonics tried to limit interest in team in Seattle, city says

By GREG JOHNS
P-I REPORTER

By limiting exposure of its players and denying media access through radio interviews, the Sonics have intentionally tried to minimize public interest in their team in Seattle over the past year, according to a motion filed Tuesday seeking to allow testimony of KJR-AM radio personality Mitch Levy.

In the city of Seattle's response to the Sonics' motion to exclude Levy and The Stranger writer Sherman Alexie from the witness list for the upcoming trial to determine the franchise's fate at KeyArena, attorney Michelle Jensen outlined numerous reasons the two media members should be allowed to appear.

Levy would be asked by the city's lawyers to explain how Clay Bennett's Professional Basketball Club has undercut its own marketing efforts in Seattle by severely limiting player and coaches interviews on KJR-AM sports radio, thereby "adding to its self-inflicted financial wounds."

Alexie, an award-winning writer as well as a 10-year Sonics season-ticket holder, would be asked to testify to the "intangible benefits" the team provides Seattle, in contrast to the "near-zero" cultural value once professed by City Councilman Nick Licata.

U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman will rule on that motion and others in a pretrial conference Friday. The six-day trial is scheduled to open June 16.

The two sides have battled over numerous issues for months, but the matter of Levy and Alexie testifying is one of the more unusual twists.

The Sonics' attorneys suggested last week the two would only add to a growing "media circus" surrounding the case while offering no valuable insight to what stands as a landlord-tenant dispute over how to fulfill the final two years of the KeyArena lease.

One of the city's arguments apparently will be that Bennett's ownership group helped create its own financial hardship in Seattle by choosing not to avail itself of the free marketing possibilities provided by an all-sports media outlet like KJR.

As an example, Tuesday's filing talks about how 19-year-old Sonics rookie Kevin Durant was described by many, including Sonics CEO Danny Barth in a deposition with city lawyers, as a "potentially transcendent player and potential superstar."

The motion says such terms are normally reserved for players like Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Kobe Bryant and LeBron James. Yet the Sonics made "only minimal efforts" to market Durant in Seattle, allowing him to appear only once on KJR and "failing to attempt to create a bond between Mr. Durant and the Seattle community."

Jensen's motion indicates Levy could be asked to compare that marketing with how the Mariners promoted Ken Griffey Jr. when he was an 18-year-old rookie in Seattle in a similar situation, as well as showing how the NBA franchise eventually curtailed all live interviews with players and coaches on KJR during the recently completed season.

"Mr. Levy's testimony will demonstrate PBC's apparently intentional efforts to minimize public interest in the Sonics," the motion states. "This is a particularly troubling issue, as there appears to be no other plausible explanation for PBC's deliberate effort to avoid marketing the team other than for purposes of this litigation."

The city's lawyers also said Levy, a former sideline reporter at Sonics games, could be used to authenticate one of their exhibits, a televised interview with NBA commissioner David Stern when he spoke glowingly to Levy about the attributes of a remodeled KeyArena when it opened in 1995.

As for Alexie, Jensen argues that the author's testimony will speak to the issue of what the franchise means to the community and why strictly monetary damages would not be a sufficient remedy for the Sonics' departure.

While the Sonics' motion to exclude Alexie referred to him as a "writer known for his profanity-laced columns about the Sonics" in The Stranger, Jensen notes that he is a nationally acclaimed author of books and poetry who has spoken to numerous audiences on the importance of racial and ethnic heritage and diversity.

A member of the Coeur d'Alene Indian Tribe, Alexie is "eminently qualified to provide relevant testimony about the intangible benefits the Sonics bring to Seattle," Jensen says.

"PBC cannot argue the team offers no cultural value and then exclude testimony offered to contradict that argument," Jensen wrote. "Given the brief time allotted for a trial (due to PBC's expedited needs), Mr. Alexie is an ideal spokesman for the season ticket holders who would otherwise not have a voice in a case directly impacting their interests."

The Sonics filed several motions Tuesday, too, asking Pechman to allow a survey showing the Sonics rank third in popularity behind the Seahawks and Mariners among Seattle sports fans; as well as evidence regarding the PBC's efforts to find a new arena in the region.

Both matters go to the "heart of why this matter is in litigation," according to the team's attorneys, noting that the city has conceded KeyArena is inadequate for an NBA team and the PBC was unable to obtain a successor venue in a city that previously had funded new facilities for pro baseball and football.

"Now, on the eve of trial, and after forcing taxpayers, the PBC and several third parties to collectively spend several hundred thousand dollars conducting discovery on these issues, the City claims that whether the PBC acted in good faith is not relevant," the Sonics motion states.

Additionally, the team is asking Pechman to include evidence showing the "dysfunction" between the city and owners that would make any specific-performance ruling difficult to carry out.

[NightTrainLayne]

G, as always you make a great argument.

Is Clay Bennett really interested in keeping the Sonics in Seattle? Maybe not, but he did not file to move the team until 12 months had passed, and did try to negotiate a deal for a new arena. I think the court will find (if it gets to that point) that Clay did try to keep the team there in good faith for 12 months.

Seattle and the State of Washington don't want to pay for a new arena. That's OK, but the consequence of that decision is that the current ownership doesn't want to stay in Key arena remodeled or not. It's simple cause and effect.

Schultz made money on the sale of the team, but as you note the teams operations are not profitable or even break-even on the operations side. Schultz wanted to sell for a reason, and that reason is that the team wasn't making money.

Schultz had asked for a new arena himself for years and was rebuffed as well.

You make a great analysis of why the Seattle voters don't want to fund a new arena, and I totally understand their position.

What I don't understand is then fighting to keep them there if you don't want to do what the team needs in order to be profitable.

Clay has proposed a buy-out of the lease that would include paying off the remaining debt on Key arena so that the tax-payers don't owe money on a vacant building.

Instead of accepting this, the City is suing to keep them there for two-years as a lame-duck team. After which there would still be debt left on the building.

If the court decides that the sonics have to play out the rest of the lease rather than buying it out, then that's what Clay will have to do, but the bottom line is that it's his team now, and Oklahoma City is willing to do what it takes to get an NBA team and Seattle isn't.

To a large degree I think the reason for this is that the Sonics aren't the only game in town. Seattle residents are tired of paying for new buildings after doing so for the Seahawks and Mariners. It's totally understandable.

But Seattle is trying to hold the Sonics captive prisoner to a money-losing lease as much as the Sonics are trying to extort Seattle.

[G_Money]

Clay didn't negotiate. "Pay for my $500 million dollar stadium or I'm leaving" is not a negotiation.

"We're trying to get out of here ASAP and exerting all our energy toward it" is not good-faith. Every email that comes out from the Bennett camp just shows that they had no desire to make it work in Seattle. They overpaid for the team because they knew they weren't gonna fork over a red cent for a stadium in Seattle. They were gonna get a much better deal back home.

Part of Clay's argument is that there is not enough restaurant space and luxury boxes for him to rake in the cash.

Which is fine, I can understand him wanting to make a profit.

I don't understand him needing to make it at the expense of the city. He seems to think he paid enough for the team, so why should he have to pay for the arena, and the land, and the cost overruns, and...

If he didn't like the profit structure of the team then he shouldn't have bought it.

If I buy a $30,000.00 Porsche with a bad engine, that's sort of my fault. Maybe I should have bought a $15,000.00 Saturn if I didn't want to have to pay for the Porsche engine repairs as well.

The NBA should be trying to keep them in Seattle. They have no interest in doing so - they LIKE that teams can extort fanbases for cash rather than following a more sound business model that doesn't require them to lose money on the team and make it back in tax rebates, sweetheart leases, concessions et al.

If "doing what it takes to get an NBA team" involves letting them bend you over for half a billion dollars every 10-15 years, then I guess I should look forward to OKC getting the team moved on them when some other city cracks open the wallet and the new blush of having a pro team wears off.

Ask Charlotte when the Hornets left due in large part to inept ownership. Ask Memphis when the Grizz leave...possibly for Seattle. The difference is, Seattle actually has a history with the Sonics.

The citizens of Seattle would like to keep Their Team in town without having to fork over half a billion dollars. That's not the standard cost of doing business in the NBA - Stan Kroenke built the Pepsi Center for his Nuggs and Avs for $180 million 10 years ago, didn't he? With his own money? The Oakland As are building a new stadium in Fremont, for the most part without public funds. The only time Clay talks about paying for anything involves getting the team to leave, not getting it to stay.

There was common ground to be found, if the ownership group had wanted to find it. Once they drew their line in the sand, the Seattle politicians drew theirs, and now they're all in a pissing contest.

Eventually, Bennett will get to go and be celebrated as a hero in his hometown when he brings them a professional franchise.

That doesn't make it right.

~G

[NightTrainLayne]

Clay didn't negotiate. "Pay for my $500 million dollar stadium or I'm leaving" is not a negotiation.

"We're trying to get out of here ASAP and exerting all our energy toward it" is not good-faith. Every email that comes out from the Bennett camp just shows that they had no desire to make it work in Seattle. They overpaid for the team because they knew they weren't gonna fork over a red cent for a stadium in Seattle. They were gonna get a much better deal back home.

Part of Clay's argument is that there is not enough restaurant space and luxury boxes for him to rake in the cash.

Which is fine, I can understand him wanting to make a profit.

I don't understand him needing to make it at the expense of the city. He seems to think he paid enough for the team, so why should he have to pay for the arena, and the land, and the cost overruns, and...

If he didn't like the profit structure of the team then he shouldn't have bought it.

If I buy a $30,000.00 Porsche with a bad engine, that's sort of my fault. Maybe I should have bought a $15,000.00 Saturn if I didn't want to have to pay for the Porsche engine repairs as well.

The NBA should be trying to keep them in Seattle. They have no interest in doing so - they LIKE that teams can extort fanbases for cash rather than following a more sound business model that doesn't require them to lose money on the team and make it back in tax rebates, sweetheart leases, concessions et al.

If "doing what it takes to get an NBA team" involves letting them bend you over for half a billion dollars every 10-15 years, then I guess I should look forward to OKC getting the team moved on them when some other city cracks open the wallet and the new blush of having a pro team wears off.

Ask Charlotte when the Hornets left due in large part to inept ownership. Ask Memphis when the Grizz leave...possibly for Seattle. The difference is, Seattle actually has a history with the Sonics.

The citizens of Seattle would like to keep Their Team in town without having to fork over half a billion dollars. That's not the standard cost of doing business in the NBA - Stan Kroenke built the Pepsi Center for his Nuggs and Avs for $180 million 10 years ago, didn't he? With his own money? The Oakland As are building a new stadium in Fremont, for the most part without public funds. The only time Clay talks about paying for anything involves getting the team to leave, not getting it to stay.

There was common ground to be found, if the ownership group had wanted to find it. Once they drew their line in the sand, the Seattle politicians drew theirs, and now they're all in a pissing contest.

Eventually, Bennett will get to go and be celebrated as a hero in his hometown when he brings them a professional franchise.

That doesn't make it right.

~G

Schultz who is one of Seattle's biggest supporters and benefactors couldn't make the Sonics work in Seattle and so he sold the team.

Bennett and the OKC ownership group bought the team. It's pretty obvious that they hoped to move it to OKC, but they did attempt to work out a deal for a new arena and waited 12 months before doing anything.

You don't think they tried hard enough. They think they did more than enough.

Frankly, I think that if a deal could be reached, it would have been reached long ago with Schultz. Seattle's not interested enough to do so.

I think that they took Schultz for granted, knowing that he would never move the team being a Seattle native, but when he couldn't get what he needed he did the next-best thing and sold the team.

You make a good point that in 10-15 years that OKC will probably be looking at the same issue cropping up again, but OKC is better equipped to deal with it since we're not getting worked over by 3 major-league teams, we'll just have one.

For a variety of reasons Seattle has determined that the Sonics are not worth building a new arena for. That is well within their rights, but the Sonics have the right to determine where they play too. At least within the parameters of their Frachise with the NBA, whose oweners voted something like 28-2 to approve the move.



Eventually, Bennett will get to go and be celebrated as a hero in his hometown when he brings them a professional franchise.

That doesn't make it right.

It doesn't make it wrong either. :D A corporation has a right to determine where they will do business.

[G_Money]

On the point that we're sort of going around, which is, "What do you think of the lawsuits?" I think they're petty, but gets votes and public support, and that's what politicians and businessmen care about.

Most of the Sonics fans I know don't want to spend a dime on a Sonics team being taken from them, but would pay a lot of money if they could cost Bennett some money too. If you took a poll of Sonics fans that said, "Would you rather have an empty Key Arena paid off by Bennett, or force him to cough up $30 million a year while sitting on his hands for 2 years until he can leave?" You'd have the Sonics fans say they want him to sit here and suffer.

Even if the lease being paid off means more money to the city, they don't care.

They were put in a tough position. They were given a local owner of the Sonics who apparently didn't buy the team because he cared about it and looked at it as an investment for the future, but who instead wanted immediate profits now. When he didn't get them, he sold and got the thing he cared about: Money.

The guy he sold it to couldn't care less about Seattle, and wants to move the team to OKC, a city primed for an NBA franchise after the Katrina disaster dropped one in their laps for a little while.

The new guy claimed to be willing to negotiate terms on Key Arena, but that was a lie. He then showed his plan for a half-billion dollar stadium funded by the taxpayers. And nobody could really know for sure if he was stupid (the Mariners had city help for their stadium, but also funded all the cost over-runs, contributed up-front money, had a lease that required more open-books accounting than almost any pro team has, etc...) or just tryingto make the price too high for the state to keep the team.

Knowing that other owners would not require them to foot such a huge part of the bill in order to line the pockets of a new owner with no community ties, they balked. They assumed he was trying to get the team moved by showing, "See? I told you they wouldn't pay..." and it was true. They wouldn't. Not for him. Not when it felt so much like extortion, and that if they agreed to pay it, what other expenses would he come up with that they couldn't bear to pay?

And then all the politicians took a TON of heat for screwing up the lease and some other issues and Schultz took a TON of heat for being a local owner who bailed on his town like a crybaby - and isn't it fascinating now how those same people are in court trying to rehab their image with the community with unlikely-to-succeed lawsuits?

But the people who get stiffed are not the Pols, who get to keep their offices, nor Schultz, who made a fortune - again - on the sale, nor Bennett, who gets all the tax breaks and stadium deals he wants in OKC as well as lauded as the conquering hero.

The losers are Sonics fans. Nobody else loses anything, lawsuits or no lawsuits.

Not unless someone in the courthouse loses their damn minds and rules in Schultz's favor on getting the Sonics back, anyway.

~G

[broncosfanscott]

I think it sucks when a Pro Team moves, in any sport. I know it's all about the money but what about the fans??

Sonics have been in Seattle for ever. I'm pretty sure they have a pretty decent fan base.
This isn't the magnitude of when the Browns moved to Balt but still the same deal. I'm glad the Browns finally got to go home and would hate to see Seattle lose thier NBA franchise.


Totally agree with you. Yeah, and for all the loyal fans that have supported them all these years.......that would suck if the move goes through.

[G_Money]

And here's where Bennett simultaneously claims that even though he knew what it would take to get a new stadium built in Seattle he was not willing to do it - but that the city of Seattle is still at fault for not letting him go to OKC like he wants.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3450827


He suggested he misunderstood the region's political climate, but he also testified he simply wasn't willing to commit to the things that his local advisers told him would be necessary to win government support for a new arena and keep the Sonics in town: make an out-of-pocket contribution toward the construction, and agree to cover cost overruns.

He said that if U.S. District Judge Marsha Pechman forces the Sonics to honor the final two years of the KeyArena lease, it would cost the team $60 million and make it tough to attract good players and coaches. The most talented players in the league probably wouldn't be interested in moving to Seattle for two years, he said.

He also extolled the virtues of Oklahoma City's Ford Center, where, he said, the team could make $17 million over the next two years, and the enthusiastic support for the NBA there. He acknowledged he's "not a real popular guy" in Seattle.

Bennett is trying to move the Sonics -- Seattle's oldest professional sports franchise -- to his hometown of Oklahoma City, two years before the KeyArena lease expires.

In the nonjury trial, the city is asking Pechman to force the Sonics to honor their lease, which includes a clause that either side may "specifically enforce" the terms. Seattle lawyers say Bennett's a sophisticated businessman who knew what he was getting into when he bought the team, can absorb the losses without difficulty, and should not now be allowed to plead hardship in breaking the lease.

Bennett testified Tuesday that he was a "man possessed" to keep the team in Seattle -- despite e-mails that show he and co-owners discussed relocating soon after buying the team. He cited his efforts to have a new arena built in the Seattle suburbs.

The city argues that Bennett's demand for a new $500 million arena -- presented late in the 2007 legislative session -- was so unreasonable as to have been designed to fail. The team offered $100 million in future revenue, such as ticket surcharges and parking fees, but would not commit to an upfront contribution or agree to cover cost overruns.

In e-mails to his lobbyists, advisers and others, Bennett said any team contribution would be "nominal" or "negligible," and suggested the amount could be offset by a credit for the team's ongoing financial losses.

"Build me a stadium with half-a-billion dollars of taxpayer money, plus cover all the cost overruns, and mayble I'll kick in a hundred million or so at some future date off of EXTRA parking costs and EXTRA fees above and beyond the ticket prices so it's not really any skin off of my nose."

I can't imagine why that approach did not succeed. :rolleyes:

Then whine about the 60 million you'll lose staying in the old building, when you could have been promoting the new building and new Sonics that you were helping to fund and have lost less than that 60 million because fans would come out to see Durant and have put their money behind you because you actually WERE trying to keep the Sonics in Seattle.

When you buy a team with the intention of ripping them out of their city and transplanting them, it's bad form to then gripe about the expense of doing so legally. Seattle doesn't care how great a town for basketball OKC is. Seattle knows it is a fine basketball city itself, that has had a succession of stupid owners driving down business and then complaining that business is bad.

I hate carpetbaggers.

~G

[lex]

Im glad to see someone finally do this. Go Seattle!

[ChampWJ]

I do not believe OKC deserves a team. The FAA has me stuck there until I get to go back to Denver in September and OKC is easily one of the worst cities I've ever been to. Here's why:

*It seems like the city has had no growth in 20 years.
*Everything is old.
*The nicer parts of town here would be considered average in other cities.
*The infrastructure is horrible. Aging and poorly designed.
*Public Transportation is non-existent.
*The roads are far and away the worst in the entire US.
*It seems like no one takes care of anything here, homes, cars, etc.
*The weather is horrible pretty much year round with tornadoes, heat/humidity, ice storms, etc.
*The nicest part of OKC is Bricktown, which all the locals rave about. Sad part is, it's nice but about 1/10th the size of Lodo or a similar place in another city.

Most of all, I do not believe there are enough people in this city to support a team for the long haul. OKC should be spending their money on things that matter, such as fixing roads and making the town a nicer place to live.

On the other hand, a basketball game would be nice considering there is absolutely nothing to do in OKC. The Ford Center is a nice arena as well.

[NightTrainLayne]

I do not believe OKC deserves a team. The FAA has me stuck there until I get to go back to Denver in September and OKC is easily one of the worst cities I've ever been to. Here's why:

*It seems like the city has had no growth in 20 years.
*Everything is old.
*The nicer parts of town here would be considered average in other cities.
*The infrastructure is horrible. Aging and poorly designed.
*Public Transportation is non-existent.
*The roads are far and away the worst in the entire US.
*It seems like no one takes care of anything here, homes, cars, etc.
*The weather is horrible pretty much year round with tornadoes, heat/humidity, ice storms, etc.
*The nicest part of OKC is Bricktown, which all the locals rave about. Sad part is, it's nice but about 1/10th the size of Lodo or a similar place in another city.

Most of all, I do not believe there are enough people in this city to support a team for the long haul. OKC should be spending their money on things that matter, such as fixing roads and making the town a nicer place to live.

On the other hand, a basketball game would be nice considering there is absolutely nothing to do in OKC. The Ford Center is a nice arena as well.

Damn, don't hold back dude.

OKC has had some huge growth over the past 10 years or so. The problem is after the oil bust in the mid-eighties all the money here dried up as the economy was geared for the oil business.

However, the past 10 years some great things have been happening. Bricktown is one, and you mention its "small", but it currently occupies about a half of the space set aside for development.

Last year we approved a sales-tax devoted to the roads and public transportation, so that is on the way. In fact, the worst part of the roads are in progress of being replaced. They are currently starting to re-route I-40's route through downtown, and once that's done there will be another round of development along the river to tie in to Bricktown.

The OKC metro area has a population well over 1 million people, and when the Hornets were here as a lame-duck team on an emergency basis for two years they ranked near the top of the league in attendance.

I'm sorry you don't like OKC, and it's not Denver or Seattle yet, but we're on our way, and it's progressive thinking like going out and getting an NBA team that is causing our city to grow, and enjoy a strong economy with virtually full employment, and a growing housing sector while the rest of the country is facing recession.

[NightTrainLayne]

BTW, if you're here maybe we should get a beer sometime Champ.

[Thnikkaman]

I'm an ass since I was hoping they would move to Vegas.

[MOtorboat]

I'm an ass since I was hoping they would move to Vegas.

I was hoping KC...

[Thnikkaman]

I was hoping KC...

I know, I read the thread.

Come to think of it, does the NBA have a franchise in the state of Missouri?

[MOtorboat]

I know, I read the thread.

Come to think of it, does the NBA have a franchise in the state of Missouri?

Nope....last one was the Kansas City Kings, I believe, and then the St. Louis Hawks before them.

[NightTrainLayne]

Oklahoma's just too good guys. ;)

BTW, the City of Seattle is getting beat up in court today. Lots of e-mails and plans to "poison the well" for the Oklahoma ownership. That won't help them enforce their lease at all.

[Lonestar]

Damn, don't hold back dude.

OKC has had some huge growth over the past 10 years or so. The problem is after the oil bust in the mid-eighties all the money here dried up as the economy was geared for the oil business.

However, the past 10 years some great things have been happening. Bricktown is one, and you mention its "small", but it currently occupies about a half of the space set aside for development.

Last year we approved a sales-tax devoted to the roads and public transportation, so that is on the way. In fact, the worst part of the roads are in progress of being replaced. They are currently starting to re-route I-40's route through downtown, and once that's done there will be another round of development along the river to tie in to Bricktown.

The OKC metro area has a population well over 1 million people, and when the Hornets were here as a lame-duck team on an emergency basis for two years they ranked near the top of the league in attendance.

I'm sorry you don't like OKC, and it's not Denver or Seattle yet, but we're on our way, and it's progressive thinking like going out and getting an NBA team that is causing our city to grow, and enjoy a strong economy with virtually full employment, and a growing housing sector while the rest of the country is facing recession.



I have visited several times since JAN 2006 and I have liked everything I have seen there.. My daughter goes to college up there and go to see her alot. Has nice small but a good Airport, the roads I've been on have been good, to great compared to alot of other cities I've been in..

When I saw his post I was wondering if it was a different OKC than the one I've been to 30 time in the last 14 months..

Unless I'm wrong there are alot of towns and cities around OKC that would help to support the team besides OKC proper..

[ChampWJ]

I have visited several times since JAN 2006 and I have liked everything I have seen there.. My daughter goes to college up there and go to see her alot. Has nice small but a good Airport, the roads I've been on have been good, to great compared to alot of other cities I've been in..

When I saw his post I was wondering if it was a different OKC than the one I've been to 30 time in the last 14 months..

Unless I'm wrong there are alot of towns and cities around OKC that would help to support the team besides OKC proper..

The airport is not bad. The FAA facility is super nice, but that's government money.

I don't know what roads you've been driving on JR, but I'm scared I'm going to damage my car or bend a rim or something every time I drive. It's really bad.

NTL, I did not know that about the funding for the roads. I'm glad to hear they know it's an issue. I have seen quite a bit of construction going on, especially on I-44. Instead of making a 100 foot patch every 100 feet they need to just pave over several miles. The patched sections almost make it worse. Drive I-44 Northbound over I-40 and you'll see what I mean. I live by Lake Hefner and drive from there to the airport every day.

I don't mean any offense to anyone who lives in OKC, honestly. If I could find more positive things to say about OKC, I would. I know none of this has to do with the Sonics, and getting a team would be a step in the right direction if this town is going to grow. I still feel like I've stepped back in time 10-15 years.

[slim]

Good for NTL. I love sonic. I would recommend the supersonic bacon cheeseburger and a cherry lime-aide.

[NightTrainLayne]

The airport is not bad. The FAA facility is super nice, but that's government money.

I don't know what roads you've been driving on JR, but I'm scared I'm going to damage my car or bend a rim or something every time I drive. It's really bad.

NTL, I did not know that about the funding for the roads. I'm glad to hear they know it's an issue. I have seen quite a bit of construction going on, especially on I-44. Instead of making a 100 foot patch every 100 feet they need to just pave over several miles. The patched sections almost make it worse. Drive I-44 Northbound over I-40 and you'll see what I mean. I live by Lake Hefner and drive from there to the airport every day.

I don't mean any offense to anyone who lives in OKC, honestly. If I could find more positive things to say about OKC, I would. I know none of this has to do with the Sonics, and getting a team would be a step in the right direction if this town is going to grow. I still feel like I've stepped back in time 10-15 years.

The best part of OKC is the people.

I've been to plenty of other "Big Cities", and nobody's as nice as the folks in OKC. Dallas, Denver, Houston, KC, San Franciso etc. Everybody's all stuck-up, but here it's real folks who are quite friendly even to perfect strangers.

You're 100% right about the roads needing improvement, although I have driven on worse. But as I said money is being allocated to fix that.

If you want to catch a beer sometime let me know.

[BroncoAV06]

Well its done, owners pay 75 mil to Seattle and the city keeps the logo and name rights as well. Sad if your in Seattle but it is a biz.

[NightTrainLayne]

Well its done, owners pay 75 mil to Seattle and the city keeps the logo and name rights as well. Sad if your in Seattle but it is a biz.

Actually it's 45 million now, and the Sonics owner's reserve the name and colors for now.

If Seattle/Washington build a new arena, or remodel Key within the next year, then the owner's will be on the hook for another 30 million if an NBA tenant is not found in 5 years.

So, unless there is a renovation or new arena in Seattle within the next year AND an NBA team does not arrive there within 5 years, then and only then are the Sonics owners on the hook for the other 30 million.

Also, they are keeping the name and colors unless another team locates there within the same 5 year span. I.E. if it is longer than 5 years before the NBA comes back, they will have to pay for using the Sonics name and colors.

Meanwhile, the team plans to use a new name and new colors in Oklahoma City. The records and Championship trophy/banners will remain in Seattle no matter what. However, the owner's will create duplicates that they will have at their disposal although Clay Bennett says he's not sure what they'll do with them.

When a better article is out there I'll post it, but for now the articles I've found don't list the details that Clay put out in the press conference which was carried here.

For the most part I think both sides can claim victory. If Seattle can get it's act together they will have an NBA team soon.

If not, then the OKC owners can say they were right, and Seattle doesn't really want basketball. All the while Seattle gets more than enough money to pay off the lease and pay off the remaining debt on Key arena with some extra kicked in to compensate for any economic damages.

[Broncospsycho77]

Well its done, owners pay 75 mil to Seattle and the city keeps the logo and name rights as well. Sad if your in Seattle but it is a biz.

Okay good. The team can leave Seattle, but the Sonics can't.

The Oklahoma City Sonics? No thanks.

[ChampWJ]

Congrats to all the people of Oklahoma. Getting a pro sports franchise is a big step in the right direction if the state, OKC have growth aspirations. God knows they need something to do in OKC. ;)

[BeefStew25]

This here is an abortion. David Stern is the Anti-Christ.

[G_Money]

Reasons for a pro sports team to leave town.

1) no attendance.
2) terrible arena with no prospects for change.
3) Owner greed.


Seattle Supersonics Attendance

Year Total Avg
2006-07 654,163 15,955
2005-06 664,157 16,198
2004-05 675,490 16,475
2003-04 631,349 15,399
2002-03 637,194 15,541
2001-02 633,516 15,452
2000-01 640,847 15,630
1999-00 615,730 15,018
1998-99 426,800 17,072
1997-98 699,952 17,072
1996-97 699,952 17,072
1995-96 697,301 17,007
1994-95 633,748 15,457
1993-94 601,969 14,682
1992-93 632,205 15,420
1991-92 586,929 14,315
1990-91 510,166 12,443

Not a lot of change there.

Seattle was willing to pay a hundred million to renovate the old arena, again, or to put up half-ish of the funds for a new arena, maybe more if the ownership would pay cost overruns as the other town's sports teams have and contribute some to construction.

So it comes down to owner greed. I really don't want to hear any more about how Seattle just wasn't viable for the Sonics. The NBA wants to be able to hold towns hostage and the owners want to STOP contributing to the giant palaces they want.

OKC assisting in this theft of public funds and sports franchises annoys me. But as long as there's a sucker around, this stuff will happen. Next on the list, Las Vegas. Bye, Memphis.

Hopefully this doesn't happen to too many other towns. There aren't a lot of places where teams can legitimately move to, but that hasn't stopped teams from moving to non-legitimate towns.

And now we'll see if with government assistance and civic pride OKC can keep its own team, or if after 5 years of losing they too will be on the losing side of a court battle.

~G

[NightTrainLayne]

Reasons for a pro sports team to leave town.

1) no attendance.
2) terrible arena with no prospects for change.
3) Owner greed.



Not a lot of change there.

Seattle was willing to pay a hundred million to renovate the old arena, again, or to put up half-ish of the funds for a new arena, maybe more if the ownership would pay cost overruns as the other town's sports teams have and contribute some to construction.

So it comes down to owner greed. I really don't want to hear any more about how Seattle just wasn't viable for the Sonics. The NBA wants to be able to hold towns hostage and the owners want to STOP contributing to the giant palaces they want.

OKC assisting in this theft of public funds and sports franchises annoys me. But as long as there's a sucker around, this stuff will happen. Next on the list, Las Vegas. Bye, Memphis.

Hopefully this doesn't happen to too many other towns. There aren't a lot of places where teams can legitimately move to, but that hasn't stopped teams from moving to non-legitimate towns.

And now we'll see if with government assistance and civic pride OKC can keep its own team, or if after 5 years of losing they too will be on the losing side of a court battle.

~G

G, I have to disagree somewhat.

I know your upset, and that Seattle SuperSonics fans are upset about losing their team and they have every right to be upset.

Let's go back to the real start of this in Hurricane Katrina in 2005. Bennett, McClendon et al (Professional Basketball Club, PBC) were the driving force in guaranteeing profitibility for the Hornets when they needed to temporarily relocate after Katrina. These guys had been trying to prove for years that OKC could host a major-league team and make it work, and when the Hornets needed help they stood up to the challenge and guaranteed $40 million to guarantee profitability of the Hornets while they were here.

With only 5 weeks to go before the '05-'06 season, PBC, in conjunction with the Hornets sold more season tickets than had been sold in N.O. in the previous year leading up to Katrina. Due to their hard-work the Hornets were profitable in OKC and their guarantee wasn't needed afterall. In fact, they were so profitable that a profit-sharing clause in the lease with OKC was activated that forced the Hornets to share a big chunk of that profit with OKC.

Needless to say, the Hornets experience proved that OKC was indeed more than capable of supporting an NBA team. At this point the next step was to find a team either through relocation or expansion.

Stern led PBC to get in contact with Schultz in Seattle. Schultz had become so frustrated in dealing with Seattle in trying to secure a new arena or renovate Key and update the lease that he decided to sell the team.

Shultz made no bones about the fact that if the team was sold, that whoever bought it would attempt to relocate the team. While Seattle fans are very vociferous in their defense of the Sonics, the majority of the citizens of Seattle who vote seemed apathetic.

PBC bought the team, but agreed to wait 12 months to see if a deal could be put together before attempting to relocate.

G and most Sonics fans don't think PBC really tried that hard to make a deal work. Only the people involved from the legislature, City and PBC really know what transpired. Yes, Bennett asked for the moon, but doesn't everyone when negotiating? You can't go backwards when negotiating. You have to ask for the moon and then move towards the center. BTW the other side was asking for the moon as well. They didn't want to do anything, and just expected PBC to play out the final two years in Key without doing anything until the current lease expired.

The 12 months went by and then PBC started the relocation process. In the interim the people of OKC voted to extend a $.01 sales-tax to spend $220 million to renovate the Ford Center and build a practice facility to welcome the Sonics. You can say that Clay was asking too much of Seattle, but while Seattle has yet to pass anything, the people of OKC have gone above and beyond the call of duty.

Will we find ourselves in the same situation in 5-10 years? Maybe, maybe not. One big difference is that we won't have MLB and NFL teams here as well asking for stadiums too.

I sucks. It really does suck how the NBA holds cities over the barrell on this, but that's the reality of the situation. There's no way around it, that's the way the business is run, and you ignore the reality of that situation at your own peril.

I understand the anger and contempt at the NBA and Stern. However, I don't think the anger directed at the citizens of OKC and Bennett et al is justified.

Obviously, Bennett's intent all along was to find a team to relocate to OKC. That being said, he agreed to sit on this for 12 months to allow Seattle to get it's act together. You can argue whether or not Seattle should have to do anything, but the reality of the situation is that they didn't do anything.

In the settlement reached yesterday PBC agreed to be put on the hook for an additional $30 million payment to the City of Seattle if they approve a renovation of Key arena in the next legislative session. Basically, it's a dare. PBC is daring the legislature to do something within the next year. They're read on the situation is that nothing will get done, and they're putting $30 million behind that bet. If nothing gets done, then we can let all the talk about "stealing" a team go.

PBC bought the team fair and square, and Schultz let everyone know that they had better get their act together by putting the 12 month clause in the contract. Seattle could have really put some pressure on PBC by passing a renovation of Key arena and making it contingent on the Sonics being there (just as OKC did), but they sat on their hands and did nothing.

I'm not trying to argue that it's an ideal situation, but that's the reality of the NBA right now. I understand the arguments against the business model, and the reasoning behind that. In fact, I would agree with most of the arguments that this business model sucks, and is somewhat unfair to cities with aging arenas.

Unfortunately, that's life. Sometimes things just suck. Don't want to play by those rules? Fine, but crying about it doesn't change anything.

There has already been much discussion in OKC about plans for 10-15 years out for a new arena to replace the Ford Center. I.E., we're not going into this blind. For the most part we understand that the same will be asked of us in the future.

If we decide at that point that we don't want to fund a new arena, then the team can go elsewhere, but if the whole of OKC really supports the team we won't let that happen.

[Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal]

This is sad, Seattle had alot of basketball tradition.

[MOtorboat]

This is sad, Seattle had alot of basketball tradition.

:confused:

[NightTrainLayne]

41 years is a long time, and the Sonics were pretty much synonymous with Seattle. It is sad for the fans there that the team will be leaving. Unfortunately, the rest of the community, those that weren't fans weren't willing to support another arena idea.

[BigDaddyBronco]

Were the new football stadium and baseball stadium in Seattle funded by the public? If so, Seattle should shut the hell up IMHO. If not, then they made a choice to not get held hostage by a sports team. Good move in my mind, there is plenty to do in Seattle without having to go to a basketball game.

In OKC's defense, they really showed their oats when the Hornets played there. There was tremendous fan support and buzz in the city. They should have no problem having a pro franchise. People in this part of the country are nuts about sports and there isn't a whole lot to do in OKC anyways.

[BigDaddyBronco]

NTL, when are we going to a basketball game. :D

[Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal]

:confused:

You dont remember when Seattle was great? Or your just not a NBA fan?

[NightTrainLayne]

NTL, when are we going to a basketball game. :D

Good question.

I've added my name to their contact list for tickets.

I doubt I'll buy full-season tickets, but I am contemplating a partial season package depending on the price. I've just got to wait for them to get it all put together.

If I pull the trigger I'll let you know.

Either way, I think I will plan to be there for opening night. I am really excited about OKC having a major league team.

In resonse to your question above about Seattle funding stadiums for the football and baseball teams, they did fund part of it, but the owners funded some as well.

However, after both of those projects the people of Seattle really spoke up about no more funding for major league teams, which left the Sonics out in the cold.

The way I see it you have a large part of Seattle's population that was just adamently against doing anything else, and a bunch of really great fans that wanted to keep the team there, but ultimately don't have enough pull to get the politicians to do what the NBA demanded.

I'm sure there's a significant segment of Seattle's population that is happy that they told the NBA no, and don't mind the Sonics leaving. Of course, you won't hear from them.

[MOtorboat]

You dont remember when Seattle was great? Or your just not a NBA fan?

They certainly haven't been great in my lifetime.

[OB]

Good question.

I've added my name to their contact list for tickets.

I doubt I'll buy full-season tickets, but I am contemplating a partial season package depending on the price. I've just got to wait for them to get it all put together.

If I pull the trigger I'll let you know.

Either way, I think I will plan to be there for opening night. I am really excited about OKC having a major league team.

In resonse to your question above about Seattle funding stadiums for the football and baseball teams, they did fund part of it, but the owners funded some as well.

However, after both of those projects the people of Seattle really spoke up about no more funding for major league teams, which left the Sonics out in the cold.

The way I see it you have a large part of Seattle's population that was just adamently against doing anything else, and a bunch of really great fans that wanted to keep the team there, but ultimately don't have enough pull to get the politicians to do what the NBA demanded.

I'm sure there's a significant segment of Seattle's population that is happy that they told the NBA no, and don't mind the Sonics leaving. Of course, you won't hear from them.


Will you take me if the Celtics come to town - I'll buy the beer and i'll even bring you a package of spongebob air freshners for ridding your car of any activities that i may partake in before said game :D

[OB]

They certainly haven't been great in my lifetime.

Neither have the Royals but you still go to see them :pound:

Did ya miss me MB :D

[MOtorboat]

Neither have the Royals but you still go to see them :pound:

Did ya miss me MB :D

You're right. The Royals do suck, but people still go see them.

[OB]

You're right. The Royals do suck, but people still go see them.

Yeah when they are playing a real time like the Yankees :D

[MOtorboat]

Yeah when they are playing a real time like the Yankees :D

No, that's a bunch of wannabe Yankees fans that couldn't tell Joba Chamberlain from Derek Jeter.

Besides, who cares? They are paying the Royals front office.

[OB]

No, that's a bunch of wannabe Yankees fans that couldn't tell Joba Chamberlain from Derek Jeter.

Besides, who cares? They are paying the Royals front office.

Dont get your panties in a wad - im just f'n with ya - i missed f'n with ya - i have 3 weeks of it built up inside and I need to let some of it out :D

[Jwalk - JayCutty6Goes - CasinoRoyal]

They certainly haven't been great in my lifetime.

Now i ask. How old are you 12? Seattle used to be great wheni was growing up. Real contenders with Kemp and the fellas

[MOtorboat]

Now i ask. How old are you 12? Seattle used to be great wheni was growing up. Real contenders with Kemp and the fellas

Yeah, I remember all those great playoff runs and championships. You throw around the word "great" a little too much. I do remember them being the first No. 1 seed to lose to a No. 8 seed. That was "great" wasn't it?

I'm 27. Seattle has never been "great" by any stretch of the imagination. Did they even get to the Finals? I was looking it up, but I can't find it. I don't think they did, not with Kemp and Payton. They won the championship in 79 with Moses Malone.

[MOtorboat]

OK...they made the Finals in 95 and lost to the Bulls.

But they only even made it past the Western Semifinals once. I don't think I'd call that great.

That would be like calling the current Dallas Mavericks "great." (No offense Coach and DC)

[NightTrainLayne]

Will you take me if the Celtics come to town - I'll buy the beer and i'll even bring you a package of spongebob air freshners for ridding your car of any activities that i may partake in before said game :D

Wow, I was reading that and started to get excited when I read about you bringing beer and a package of ________. My mind started filling in the blanks before I got to spongebob.

The way the NBA schedule is set up, the Celtics will definitely play here one time.

We'll see, but if I come back from that game too drunk and with a sponge-bob in my square-pants I'll be in trouble with the wife.

[OB]

Wow, I was reading that and started to get excited when I read about you bringing beer and a package of ________. My mind started filling in the blanks before I got to spongebob.

The way the NBA schedule is set up, the Celtics will definitely play here one time.

We'll see, but if I come back from that game too drunk and with a sponge-bob in my square-pants I'll be in trouble with the wife.

Youre wife is more than welcome to join us - for the game :D