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broncobryce
06-20-2010, 03:32 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15335926

Kiszla: Broncos trying to sack Dumervil at negotiating table
By Mark Kiszla
The Denver Post

The good people of Colorado built Broncos owner Pat Bowlen a football stadium so the local NFL team would be a Super Bowl contender forever.

But, like pass-rusher Elvis Dumervil, the rest of us are slowly discovering that loyalty in the NFL is often a one-way street.

Could it be after all these years of acting the good neighbor, Bowlen and his franchise are now more interested in making money than winning a championship?

Maybe Josh McDaniels was hired as coach in Denver to hold down costs, especially with labor strife looming for the NFL just around a dark bend in the road ahead.

Dumervil gave his team a league- leading 17 sacks last season.

In return, the Broncos have given Dr. Doom the least amount of appreciation possible, leaving the four-year veteran little choice except to sign a $3.168 million tender to give his 110 percent on the field.

You have to wonder: How much money is Dumervil costing himself by being a good guy?

Inquire about Dumervil's priceless contributions to a defense that needs all the help it can get, and Denver defensive back Champ Bailey will enthusiastically say, "He's a guy that we need."

So what's the hang-up in getting Dumervil signed to a long-term contract?

This is a tricky deal for the Broncos.

The team must negotiate the fine line between what makes financial sense in roster maintenance and the costs required to maintain the faith of fans whose trust in the team has certainly been shaken.

Is Dumervil worth a multiyear contract in the neighborhood of $65 million, with more than half the money guaranteed, no matter how long his 5-foot-11, 248-pound body holds up against the strain of being an undersized playmaker in a violent game?

The brutally honest answer is: No.

Dumervil is a fearsome pass rusher, but his every-down impact is no match for NFL linebackers such as Patrick Willis or James Harrison.

So, no matter how much I like Dr. Doom, it's hard to mindlessly shout: Show him the money!

Ah, but here's the rub. Unless the Broncos sign Dumervil to a long-term contract before training camp begins, he would be foolish to show up. It then would be fair for everybody from veteran cornerback Bailey to season-ticket holders to wonder if this franchise has commitment issues.

Denver kicked quarterback Jay Cutler and receiver Brandon Marshall out the door of Dove Valley headquarters to seek greener pastures and pay raises elsewhere in the NFL. If you're asking me, the Broncos made a smart business decision in the case of both troublesome players.

So long as Bowlen is charging in excess of $200 per game for a club seat in a stadium built with the generosity of taxpayers, however, it also seems fair to ask: Are the Broncos truly serious about reinvesting profits in the very stars whose jerseys are proudly worn by spectators in the stands?

With zero promise of how many games will be on the league schedule in 2011 due to haggling over a new collective bargaining agreement, Bailey, who celebrates his 32nd birthday this week, wants to win now. And why should we be any different? I like McDaniels, but the NFL isn't a driver's education class to learn how to keep a team on the road to the Super Bowl.

Of course, it might be cheaper for the Broncos to pick an unpolished quarterback in the first round of the draft and sell everyone on a bright sun rising in the distant horizon, rather than spending the money to challenge the Colts or Patriots for AFC supremacy now.

Maybe the selection of Florida star Tim Tebow was as much a marketing campaign as a football decision.

Sorry for the cynicism.

But the NFL can be a down- and-dirty business, from the trenches where Dumervil works for the Broncos to the negotiating table where his employer is squeezing Dr. Doom for every last red cent.

Mark Kiszla: 303-954-1053 or mkiszla@denverpost.com

broncobryce
06-20-2010, 03:34 PM
If he can give us 15 sacks a season for awhile, he IS worth 65 million. It's a passing league, guys who can sack the QB are worth a lot of cash.

SR
06-20-2010, 03:35 PM
I agree with some of that, sadly.

Tempus Fugit
06-20-2010, 03:45 PM
The title doesn't really match the article.

jhildebrand
06-20-2010, 03:55 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15335926
[QUOTE]
Kiszla: "Bowlen and his franchise are now more interested in making money than winning a championship?"

I have been telling people for some time (over a year and a half) that Bowlen has cash flow issues. Powder, where are you? :confused: Even Kiszla is beginning to not only get the idea but put it in writing.




Kiszla: "Maybe Josh McDaniels was hired as coach in Denver to hold down costs, especially with labor strife looming for the NFL just around a dark bend in the road ahead."


Another point I made when McDaniels was hired. IIRC, even Joe Ellis, a big reason for Josh being hired admitted as much. I believe he mentioned that he and Bowlen liked that he came from a franchise known for holding every possible cost down.

I am not faulting Bowlen, though! I think it is a wise business decision in a clouded environment. The CBA is an issue. Bowlen is the head of the TV committee. He is no dummy. I am quite certain the league coming out of the new CBA will be drastically different and the better teams will be those teams that were more prudent. You could see some of that with the hockey lockout.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-20-2010, 03:59 PM
The title doesn't really match the article.

That is exactly what I thought when I read it early on denver post site this morning.

From article:

"So what's the hang-up in getting Dumervil signed to a long-term contract?

This is a tricky deal for the Broncos.

The team must negotiate the fine line between what makes financial sense in roster maintenance and the costs required to maintain the faith of fans whose trust in the team has certainly been shaken.

Is Dumervil worth a multiyear contract in the neighborhood of $65 million, with more than half the money guaranteed, no matter how long his 5-foot-11, 248-pound body holds up against the strain of being an undersized playmaker in a violent game?

The brutally honest answer is: No.

Dumervil is a fearsome pass rusher, but his every-down impact is no match for NFL linebackers such as Patrick Willis or James Harrison.

So, no matter how much I like Dr. Doom, it's hard to mindlessly shout: Show him the money!"

So, if that is the way Kiszla feels, why did he title the article what he did???????

Lonestar
06-20-2010, 05:05 PM
Kiz is the second biggest hack the DP next to woody.

Nowhere is it been quoted by anyone reliable that DEN is not negioating in good faith.

If Doom does not show up at Training camp then he can be fined. Zhould bd fined because he signed the tender increasing his salary 6 fold.

Is that enough, or is 50 milion+ yo much.


Pat does not a cash flow issue anymore than any other team.

But neither does he have money to flush down the toilet on FA like in the past.

Was Josh hired to keep costs down like the NE team he came from.

I doubt that if that would have been the objective they would have hired Piaoli oe Billy whom ever was resposible for that type of stuff.

They have guaranteed TV money next year even IF they have NO or a short schedule.

Pat is responsible for putting a good product on the field but it does not mean he has to break the bank to do so.

Doom nice to have IF he is affordable

Kiz did say that at his size no on knows how much he can take and for how long.

That much I have been saying for along time along with him being a one trick pony.
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Bosco
06-20-2010, 05:51 PM
I have been telling people for some time (over a year and a half) that Bowlen has cash flow issues. Powder, where are you? :confused: Even Kiszla is beginning to not only get the idea but put it in writing. It's not a cash flow issue, it's a case of Bowlen getting tired of dumping huge amounts of money on the Travis Henry's and Simeon Rice's of the world and getting very little production out of it, hence like you said, there was the value of getting a guy who came from a team known for operating frugally.

Slick
06-20-2010, 07:46 PM
It's not a cash flow issue, it's a case of Bowlen getting tired of dumping huge amounts of money on the Travis Henry's and Simeon Rice's of the world and getting very little production out of it, hence like you said, there was the value of getting a guy who came from a team known for operating frugally.

It's common knowledge that Bowlen isn't among the big boys as far as NFL owners go. He's like 1,000 on the Forbes list...worth a little over a billion. Most NFL owners have much deeper pockets than Pat does. They don't even really need the money from their franchises to be rich. He does. It is his main source of revenue. Why do you think he tried to let Elway buy 10%?

Also, it's a real disservice to Dumervil to mention his name with the likes of Travis Henry and Simeon Rice. He's been the most productive player on the defense.

We need to lock this guy up.

We can always go back to counting to 10 mississippi every time an opposing QB drops back to pass. Wasn't that fun?

Poet
06-20-2010, 08:12 PM
Travis Henry was a guy that could produce at a high level when he was on the field.

Simeon Rice is a HOFer, that was picked up when everyone but Denver knew he was washed up.

Dumveril produces when he's on the field and is in his prime. He also could have giggled his sack off at the Broncos and not signed that tender. Make no mistake about it, your defense doesn't have a plethora of great players. He's also the only player on your roster that can rush the passer.

He's also a team player and a class act.

Bowlen doesn't have cash flow problems. It's almost impossible for an owner to have cash flow problems with the revenue sharing that the NFL has implemented.

Bosco
06-20-2010, 10:02 PM
It's common knowledge that Bowlen isn't among the big boys as far as NFL owners go. He's like 1,000 on the Forbes list...worth a little over a billion. Most NFL owners have much deeper pockets than Pat does. They don't even really need the money from their franchises to be rich. He does. It is his main source of revenue. Why do you think he tried to let Elway buy 10%? I'm well aware that Bowlen doesn't have the revenue alot of other NFL teams do.


Also, it's a real disservice to Dumervil to mention his name with the likes of Travis Henry and Simeon Rice. He's been the most productive player on the defense. What are you talking about? That statement was completely unrelated to Dumervil.


We need to lock this guy up. Agreed, but not at an exorbitant (over $30 mil guaranteed) price.

BigBroncLove
06-21-2010, 12:37 AM
What a load of conjecture filled tripe by Kiszla. One could expect the nearly 99% speculation spouted out by Kiszla in this article from a casual fan or irritated forum poster but for a journalist to put to print an article filled with this... garbage is unprincipled and questionable IMO.

Simply put, I firmly believe writers working at this level of media are not supposed to make their living off of stories built on a house of supposition and hyperbole. To do so shows his quality as a journalist.

As for the story itself, few things in there I agree with at all, with the exception that some fans and likely players on the Broncos are starting to question if the Broncos have commitment issues. Personally, I find it rather reaffirming that I disagree with Kiszla on so many issues. Seeing my personal opinion of his intelligence and skill as writer for the Post I would find it much more disheartening to agree with an unskilled hack then the alternative.

Give Doom his due, pay him his money, and put Kiszla's foot where it belongs... in his mouth.

Ravage!!!
06-21-2010, 06:20 AM
It's not a cash flow issue, it's a case of Bowlen getting tired of dumping huge amounts of money on the Travis Henry's and Simeon Rice's of the world and getting very little production out of it, hence like you said, there was the value of getting a guy who came from a team known for operating frugally.

So you are dismissing one conjecture with your own, and claiming fact.

Dirk
06-21-2010, 07:19 AM
I'm still at the same place I have always been at.

Pay Doom and lock him up for years. BUT...don't break the bank. If he wants Ware or Peppers money...sorry..seeya Doom, it's been nice knowing you!

Slick
06-21-2010, 07:33 AM
I'm well aware that Bowlen doesn't have the revenue alot of other NFL teams do.

What are you talking about? That statement was completely unrelated to Dumervil.

Agreed, but not at an exorbitant (over $30 mil guaranteed) price.

Dumb it down for me if I interpreted wrong. When I read your post I interpret, Pat won't pay Elvis because of past mistakes with Rice and Henry.

GGMoogly
06-21-2010, 07:39 AM
What a load of conjecture filled tripe by Kiszla. One could expect the nearly 99% speculation spouted out by Kiszla in this article from a casual fan or irritated forum poster but for a journalist to put to print an article filled with this... garbage is unprincipled and questionable IMO.

Simply put, I firmly believe writers working at this level of media are not supposed to make their living off of stories built on a house of supposition and hyperbole. To do so shows his quality as a journalist.

As for the story itself, few things in there I agree with at all, with the exception that some fans and likely players on the Broncos are starting to question if the Broncos have commitment issues. Personally, I find it rather reaffirming that I disagree with Kiszla on so many issues. Seeing my personal opinion of his intelligence and skill as writer for the Post I would find it much more disheartening to agree with an unskilled hack then the alternative...


I agree with you in large part, it is conjecture filled tripe, but I wouldn't go so far as to say unprincipled. My thoughts on Kiszla are that he's lazy, both in style and substance. I think most sportswriters are and it's easy to understand why. Year after year of writing variations on a theme can dull a man's talents. It is Kiszla's laziness, however, that betrays any sincerity in his subject and leaves the reader disaffected. He doesn't seem to believe half of what he says.

As far as the level of competence demanded by his employer and the larger media as a whole, never forget how they really make their living and that's by selling trucks and beer. Kiszla's job is to keep us coming back to read what he says, no matter how silly. If we're exposed to his sponsors, he's done his job. Not everyone need be after a Pulitzer.

Bosco
06-21-2010, 09:10 AM
Dumb it down for me if I interpreted wrong. When I read your post I interpret, Pat won't pay Elvis because of past mistakes with Rice and Henry.

You're right, my original statement wasn't very clear.

Aside from the extremely high asking price, I don't think Pat has any problem at all paying Dumervil.

That said, I think it's pretty clear that Pat wanted someone who wouldn't blow through lots of money on character risks, which is kinda what Hildebrand was alluding to.

Separate issues though, as we're all aware that Dumervil is all class and about as diametrically opposed to Carter/IHOP/Henry/Rice as one could be.

Thnikkaman
06-21-2010, 09:34 AM
Sorry, I stopped reading the article at this Point:


Kiszla

rationalfan
06-21-2010, 10:06 AM
What a load of conjecture filled tripe by Kiszla. One could expect the nearly 99% speculation spouted out by Kiszla in this article from a casual fan or irritated forum poster but for a journalist to put to print an article filled with this... garbage is unprincipled and questionable IMO.

Simply put, I firmly believe writers working at this level of media are not supposed to make their living off of stories built on a house of supposition and hyperbole. To do so shows his quality as a journalist.

As for the story itself, few things in there I agree with at all, with the exception that some fans and likely players on the Broncos are starting to question if the Broncos have commitment issues. Personally, I find it rather reaffirming that I disagree with Kiszla on so many issues. Seeing my personal opinion of his intelligence and skill as writer for the Post I would find it much more disheartening to agree with an unskilled hack then the alternative.

Give Doom his due, pay him his money, and put Kiszla's foot where it belongs... in his mouth.

uh, he is a columnist and is paid to compose opinion pieces full of conjecture. it's in the job requirements. but, keep in mind that these "lazy" journalists do spend time at team facilities talking to people off the record. they do make calls to people in the know. they take the temperature of situations and relay their findings/opinions. it's easy to blame the messenger, especially when you have no understanding of what they do.

having said that, kizla does rub people the wrong way.

NightTrainLayne
06-21-2010, 11:10 AM
Kiz is the second biggest hack the DP next to woody.

Nowhere is it been quoted by anyone reliable that DEN is not negioating in good faith.

If Doom does not show up at Training camp then he can be fined. Zhould bd fined because he signed the tender increasing his salary 6 fold.

Is that enough, or is 50 milion+ yo much.


Pat does not a cash flow issue anymore than any other team.

But neither does he have money to flush down the toilet on FA like in the past.

Was Josh hired to keep costs down like the NE team he came from.

I doubt that if that would have been the objective they would have hired Piaoli oe Billy whom ever was resposible for that type of stuff.

They have guaranteed TV money next year even IF they have NO or a short schedule.

Pat is responsible for putting a good product on the field but it does not mean he has to break the bank to do so.

Doom nice to have IF he is affordable

Kiz did say that at his size no on knows how much he can take and for how long.

That much I have been saying for along time along with him being a one trick pony.
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:confused:

Did you read the article? Kizla basically said everything you've been arguing about Doom for months.

dogfish
06-21-2010, 12:06 PM
:confused:

Did you read the article? Kizla basically said everything you've been arguing about Doom for months.

would you want to admit it if you agreed with kiszla?

clearest imaginable proof that you're dead wrong. . . .

Northman
06-21-2010, 12:24 PM
:confused:

Did you read the article? Kizla basically said everything you've been arguing about Doom for months.

Dont worry, i laughed at that as well.

BigBroncLove
06-21-2010, 12:43 PM
I agree with you in large part, it is conjecture filled tripe, but I wouldn't go so far as to say unprincipled. My thoughts on Kiszla are that he's lazy, both in style and substance. I think most sportswriters are and it's easy to understand why. Year after year of writing variations on a theme can dull a man's talents. It is Kiszla's laziness, however, that betrays any sincerity in his subject and leaves the reader disaffected. He doesn't seem to believe half of what he says.

As far as the level of competence demanded by his employer and the larger media as a whole, never forget how they really make their living and that's by selling trucks and beer. Kiszla's job is to keep us coming back to read what he says, no matter how silly. If we're exposed to his sponsors, he's done his job. Not everyone need be after a Pulitzer.

Well I don't keep coming back to his stories, just find them here, so can't say he's doing his job. At least for me. :)

I would disagree regarding unprincipled journalism. Journalist, generally taught in nearly every university, are expected to write, at the very least, upon a degree of truth. What I find in this story is complete and utter assumption. Nowhere near simple opinion built upon either widely held beliefs or concrete fact, as would be expected of a columnist, Kiszla in this case chooses to promote ideas that have no other foundation then abstract thought. This, as far as journalism is concerned, is exactly what their taught not to do. I know there is a very tangible difference between real world application and ideology of journalism, but some things are expected to hold true regardless. Much like a hippocratic oath. It is, as a result, unprincipled IMO. Against the larger unspoken code of promoting the truth. Not half-truths and innuendo, no matter how much you might think them to be truths.

As for the bleeds it leads, I agree. Controversy sells. I didn't implicitly attack the overall tactic, just his quality as a journalist. I also disagree that reporting year after year of sports can lead to poor journalism. There do remain journalists/columnists who continue to provide intriguing, thought provoking, and sensible stories year in and year out. Stories that sell just as well as they make the reader think. I don't get lazy in my job and I find no reason to not call a spade a spade, regardless of how identifiable his circumstances may seem.

BigBroncLove
06-21-2010, 12:57 PM
uh, he is a columnist and is paid to compose opinion pieces full of conjecture. it's in the job requirements. but, keep in mind that these "lazy" journalists do spend time at team facilities talking to people off the record. they do make calls to people in the know. they take the temperature of situations and relay their findings/opinions. it's easy to blame the messenger, especially when you have no understanding of what they do.

having said that, kizla does rub people the wrong way.

Columnists are expected to give their opinion based upon the facts of the situation. Not build opinions off of assumption of what the situation is. There is a distinct difference and given your omission of this, I would wager you have little understanding of what a columnist is supposed to do.

GGMoogly
06-21-2010, 03:19 PM
...I would disagree regarding unprincipled journalism. Journalist, generally taught in nearly every university, are expected to write, at the very least, upon a degree of truth. What I find in this story is complete and utter assumption. Nowhere near simple opinion built upon either widely held beliefs or concrete fact, as would be expected of a columnist, Kiszla in this case chooses to promote ideas that have no other foundation then abstract thought. This, as far as journalism is concerned, is exactly what their taught not to do. I know there is a very tangible difference between real world application and ideology of journalism, but some things are expected to hold true regardless. Much like a hippocratic oath. It is, as a result, unprincipled IMO. Against the larger unspoken code of promoting the truth. Not half-truths and innuendo, no matter how much you might think them to be truths.

I think the definition of "principled" is broad enough that should one feel compelled to defend Kiszla (I certainly don't) as a columnist, one could do an adequate job. When he uses phrases like, "If you're asking me" and "it also seems fair to ask" it's obvious he's stating opinion. He also throws in a few facts so to say it's "complete and utter assumption" is to surrender to hyperbole.



As for the bleeds it leads, I agree. Controversy sells. I didn't implicitly attack the overall tactic, just his quality as a journalist. I also disagree that reporting year after year of sports can lead to poor journalism. There do remain journalists/columnists who continue to provide intriguing, thought provoking, and sensible stories year in and year out. Stories that sell just as well as they make the reader think. I don't get lazy in my job and I find no reason to not call a spade a spade, regardless of how identifiable his circumstances may seem.

I agree with you on the quality of his work, but I stand by my statement; Rehashing the same story CAN lead to poor journalism, though it doesn't necessarily have to. You're right, there are journalists/columnists who don't succumb and do exemplary work. They are a joy to read. I salute you for not getting lazy in your job. I wish I could say the same thing, but I'm deeply flawed...

BigBroncLove
06-21-2010, 03:31 PM
I think the definition of "principled" is broad enough that should one feel compelled to defend Kiszla (I certainly don't) as a columnist, one could do an adequate job. When he uses phrases like, "If you're asking me" and "it also seems fair to ask" it's obvious he's stating opinion. He also throws in a few facts so to say it's "complete and utter assumption" is to surrender to hyperbole.

The entire basis of the story though, which is what I speak to as his supposition, is that the Broncos are trying to nickle and dime Dumervil. I don't think anyone outside of the few parties that are part of the negotiation process between the Dumervil and Bronco camps, can choose to make claim to such knowledge without calling it assumption. Such as , "to the negotiating table where his employer is squeezing Dr. Doom for every last red cent". The foundation of his story is built upon the assumption that the Broncos are not negotiating in good faith. Beyond that it builds one assumption upon another, though I will agree that he at least frames some of his conjecture into well formed declarations that they are nothing but that.

Again, I said 99% was assumption. I apologize for the misconstruing in saying the story is "complete and utter" assumption. I meant that the foundation of his story was complete and utter guess work. In a climate the Broncos currently inhabit to be misleading in this sense is, again only IMO, unprincipled let alone the mere journalistic requirements I felt Kiszla obviously did not meet.

GGMoogly
06-21-2010, 03:38 PM
Kiz is the second biggest hack the DP next to woody.


Speaking of writers, my opinion of Woody is a little different. Though I don't always agree with what he's saying, I think he's very good at his craft. To do this type of writing takes a certain "diarrhea of the pen" - as Woody has called it - and it seems to flow smoother from him than most others. Sure, from time to time he phones it in, but when he's on a roll, I find his folksy approach charming.

TXBRONC
06-21-2010, 03:50 PM
Speaking of writers, my opinion of Woody is a little different. Though I don't always agree with what he's saying, I think he's very good at his craft. To do this type of writing takes a certain "diarrhea of the pen" - as Woody has called it - and it seems to flow smoother from him than most others. Sure, from time to time he phones it in, but when he's on a roll, I find his folksy approach charming.

Woody's isn't right many times maybe even most but sometimes he is.

Lonestar
06-21-2010, 04:36 PM
Speaking of writers, my opinion of Woody is a little different. Though I don't always agree with what he's saying, I think he's very good at his craft. To do this type of writing takes a certain "diarrhea of the pen" - as Woody has called it - and it seems to flow smoother from him than most others. Sure, from time to time he phones it in, but when he's on a roll, I find his folksy approach charming.

well for the most part I find his lack of facts loose as a goose with diarrhea .

it is OK to have an opinion, but lets not confuse reality with what he writes for the most part.

GGMoogly
06-21-2010, 04:45 PM
well for the most part I find his lack of facts loose as a goose with diarrhea .

it is OK to have an opinion, but lets not confuse reality with what he writes for the most part.

Sure, what he says is always questionable, I just like how he says it.

Lonestar
06-21-2010, 04:51 PM
Sure, what he says is always questionable, I just like how he says it.


But the reason I do not care for him is many maroons will take it to the bank and salivate over it as mothers milk.

I'ma Joe Friday type "give me the facts and nothing but the facts." Then I can form my own OPINE.

Ravage!!!
06-22-2010, 11:12 AM
Columnists are expected to give their opinion based upon the facts of the situation. Not build opinions off of assumption of what the situation is. There is a distinct difference and given your omission of this, I would wager you have little understanding of what a columnist is supposed to do.

Thats not true. If they get a reaction, then the column is a success. If their opinion is strong, and pisses people off, even MORE success. Ppeople read the columns simply to say "Gee, I wonder what moronic think Kisla said today. I wonder what else I can disagree with him on." People WANT to disagree with an opinion, because it gives them a reason to want ot share THEIR opinion. Makes them feel RIGHT, makes them feel smart, and gives them a "bad guy" to hate on. Reading something you agree with all the time, is boring and doesn't sell papers.

Sensationalism sells. GIving strong opinions, sells. Kisla didn't share a popular opinion of the situation, but his "facts" of the situation are no less fact than yours.

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 01:38 PM
Thats not true. If they get a reaction, then the column is a success. If their opinion is strong, and pisses people off, even MORE success. Ppeople read the columns simply to say "Gee, I wonder what moronic think Kisla said today. I wonder what else I can disagree with him on." People WANT to disagree with an opinion, because it gives them a reason to want ot share THEIR opinion. Makes them feel RIGHT, makes them feel smart, and gives them a "bad guy" to hate on. Reading something you agree with all the time, is boring and doesn't sell papers.

Sensationalism sells. GIving strong opinions, sells. Kisla didn't share a popular opinion of the situation, but his "facts" of the situation are no less fact than yours.

i disagree !:laugh: