The latest from Andrew Mason (6-17)

[Spiritguy]

A long-delayed trip into the mailbag, to which you can contribute by clicking here (replyguaranteed@maxdenver.com) …

Hi there! I found this site through MHR recently, and have been reading ever since. I’m hooked on the detailed first-hand news that you’re able to provided. I’ve got a few questions, if you’ve got the time:

1. It sounds like Orton is having a great camp so far, what have you noticed about his long-ball? It sounds like we’re going to more of a vertical game this season, which makes me curious if Orton has been practicing that more during the OTA’s, if he’s hitting receiever’s in stride, if it looks like he’s getting the longer ‘touch’ passes down, etc..

2. Have you noticed any major differences in any players’ weight? Specifically, I’m curious about Woodyard. I heard somewhere that he looks to have gained some muscle, any idea how much? What type of role has he been playing (inside, outside, 1st/2nd, etc..)?

3. Have you noticed any of the new(ish) guys taking on a leadership role?

4. I understand Cox has been in with the first team, but that Phonz and Jones have only played nickel. Correct? If so, does Cox look better out there in your opinion?

5. Which receiver has impressed you most? Which one has impressed you the most, consistently, out of McKinley and Willis?

Thanks for taking the time, I appreciate it. And again, love your site!

Alex Adams
Burleigh, Idaho
First of all, glad you like the site. The best thing I can write to you is we’re only scratching the surface of what this is going to be. The perspective and voices on the site in the future will be fair, reasoned, and hopefully insightful.

1. Everyone’s been working more on the long ball, just because it was a stated point of emphasis from Josh McDaniels. Brady Quinn looked to have more strength on the deep passes, but Kyle Orton was more accurate. (And Tim Tebow can fling it, particularly on those difficult out passes. Don’t let the pre-draft skepticism fool you; arm strength will not be an issue for him.)

Back to Orton: one pass in particular stood out from my observations: a deep post route to Brandon Lloyd on May 27, which was one of two long Orton-to-Lloyd connections that day. On the post, Nate Jones had good coverage but Orton beat it with a perfect pass that hit Lloyd in stride. It was exactly the kind of play that will help make this offense work.

One more thought that cannot be overlooked: it would be impossible for Orton to handle his current situation with more class and maturity. The addition of a rookie first-rounder and another recent first-rounder would often bring out the prickly side of a quarterback, but Orton has answered every question about the situation with wisdom and dignity. The best compliment that can be offered in an NFL team headquarters is to say that a player “gets it,” and this is the case with Orton.


2. I haven’t noticed a perceptible difference in Wesley Woodyard’s weight. He looks quicker out there, but that could also be a function of moving without pads; a better gauge will come when training camp arrives. So far, his place is the same as it was in 2009. Woodyard is perfect in his role: a special-teams ace who is good enough to play — and play well — with the first unit, should the need arise. Sometimes NFL teams have special-teams coverage and protection guys who are liabilities as backups at their offensive or defensive positions; this isn’t the case with Woodyard, which is why his future is bright; guys like him can last a decade or more in the league when they find their niche.

The only other item of note regarding player weight regards Jarvis Moss, who said last Sunday he’s at 245 pounds, but wants to add up to eight more before training camp.

3. One thing I noticed during the first 20 minutes of the rookies-only practice that were open to the media on April 30 was how Tim Tebow seemed every bit the leader he was at the University of Florida — patting guys on the helmet, seeking out teammates for a quick word or two, encouraging his teammates, etc.

As OTAs continued, it appeared Tebow was successfully balancing leadership among rookies with knowing his place and deferring to the veterans. This is a tap dance that can be difficult to execute, but given the praise of Tebow from teammates — most notably Champ Bailey — he’s executing it well.

But when it comes to overall team leadership, Brian Dawkins is still the alpha dog — as he should be. I can see how he’s the kind of guy who makes a young player sit up straighter in his chair when he speaks: commanding, authoritative, and more than a decade of experience to back up his words. In these regards, he reminds me of Rod Smith, which is the highest compliment I can offer.

You can read the rest of Mason's response here (http://maxdenver.com/blog1/2010/06/16/reply-guaranteed-wideouts-corners-and-other-ota-tidbits/) I really like the section about DT and his catching passes in stride and over his shoulder. That has been missing from the team for quite awhile.

[shank]

is it just me that the link won't work for?

[ikillz0mbies]

the link works fine. for me anyway.

[shank]

the link works fine. for me anyway.

hmmm... not sure why it's not working for me, so i'll blame witchcraft.

[Spiritguy]

Just checked myself, worked ok. maybe something with your browser? maybe try dumping cookies or ??

here's the link all spelled out so you can try copy paste.

http://maxdenver.com/blog1/2010/06/16/reply-guaranteed-wideouts-corners-and-other-ota-tidbits/

[slim]

hmmm... not sure why it's not working for me, so i'll blame witchcraft.

Sounds like PEBCAK to me.

[shank]

Just checked myself, worked ok. maybe something with your browser? maybe try dumping cookies or ??

working now, but earlier it wouldn't load in firefox or IE. again, i'm thinking witches. :salute:

[Spiritguy]

hmmmm maybe internet gremlins. :eek:

[Lonestar]

Sounds like the noodle arm fanatics are going to be eating crow.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[TXBRONC]

It's a nice write up by Andrew.

[Fan in Exile]

Sounds like the noodle arm fanatics are going to be eating crow.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I don't think so. Orton doesn't have the strength that he needs, he's only good when he's healthy and when he has time for his mechanics to be perfect. So it's not a surprise when he does well in OTA's and training camps. If he can stay uninjured and unhurried during the season he could have a great year, but if he get's hurt Brady will be starting this year, and I don't think that he'll lose the starting position to Orton onces he's won it.

[TXBRONC]

I don't think so. Orton doesn't have the strength that he needs, he's only good when he's healthy and when he has time for his mechanics to be perfect. So it's not a surprise when he does well in OTA's and training camps. If he can stay uninjured and unhurried during the season he could have a great year, but if he get's hurt Brady will be starting this year, and I don't think that he'll lose the starting position to Orton onces he's won it.

It's one thing to do it OTAs and camp it's quite another thing to do it when it counts. I remember this time last year how Orton threw couple nice deep passes in practice but it didn't translate to the field except for one game.

[Lonestar]

I don't think so. Orton doesn't have the strength that he needs, he's only good when he's healthy and when he has time for his mechanics to be perfect. So it's not a surprise when he does well in OTA's and training camps. If he can stay uninjured and unhurried during the season he could have a great year, but if he get's hurt Brady will be starting this year, and I don't think that he'll lose the starting position to Orton onces he's won it.


FWIW no QB can throw deep when he does not have the time to, or the Wr does not have the time to run the route and that my friend what was happening last year Early they were running over hamilton and by casey collapsing the pocket thus not allowing anyone the chance to step up into the pocket.

When Harris went down it was Katy bar the doors cause the rush was on. It did not help that the high ankle strain happened about that time. \

BTW my original thoughts in the post was more about Tebow not having a strong arm.

But this kind of proves that many will read it as Orton.

[Andrew Mason]

Apologize for the page not working; I've been battling some database issues; that's why it wasn't working. The site might be going in and out for a little while longer.


working now, but earlier it wouldn't load in firefox or IE. again, i'm thinking witches. :salute:

[TXBRONC]

Apologize for the page not working; I've been battling some database issues; that's why it wasn't working. The site might be going in and out for a little while longer.

You're da man Andrew! :salute:

[shank]

Apologize for the page not working; I've been battling some database issues; that's why it wasn't working. The site might be going in and out for a little while longer.

it's confirmed: i'm not crazy.

thanks for the info, as always andrew! good to see you in "person" :salute:

[slim]

Apologize for the page not working; I've been battling some database issues; that's why it wasn't working. The site might be going in and out for a little while longer.

Andrew,

It's not you, it's shank. He can't do anything right.

I like your write-up, BTW.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Apologize for the page not working; I've been battling some database issues; that's why it wasn't working. The site might be going in and out for a little while longer.

Hey - since you joined BF on 4-30, would you have time to post here more often to bring us up to date on the latest Bronco news. If so, start a thread in Broncos Talk, possibly naming it Andrew's thread, or whatever, and I am sure one of the mods would sticky it, where you could not only post, but answer any of the BF poster's questions.

[underrated29]

Hey - since you joined BF on 4-30, would you have time to post here more often to bring us up to date on the latest Bronco news. If so, start a thread in Broncos Talk, possibly naming it Andrew's thread, or whatever, and I am sure one of the mods would sticky it, where you could not only post, but answer any of the BF poster's questions.



Thats a nice idea! but dont forget he is going to want to drive traffic towards his site.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Thats a nice idea! but dont forget he is going to want to drive traffic towards his site.

Understand, and of course, he would not post everything here that is on his site, so his signature could be a link to his site for anyone to read all of his information.

[underrated29]

So hows about it, Andrew?

[Fan in Exile]

FWIW no QB can throw deep when he does not have the time to, or the Wr does not have the time to run the route and that my friend what was happening last year Early they were running over hamilton and by casey collapsing the pocket thus not allowing anyone the chance to step up into the pocket.

When Harris went down it was Katy bar the doors cause the rush was on. It did not help that the high ankle strain happened about that time. \

BTW my original thoughts in the post was more about Tebow not having a strong arm.

But this kind of proves that many will read it as Orton.

Yeah I think Orton has been a noodle arm a lot longer than Tebow. Sure being hurried and hurt affects every QB, but it crushes Orton. Which is why I'm hoping that Tebow can be more mobile and improvistational because I think behind our line we'll need it.

[TXBRONC]

Yeah I think Orton has been a noodle arm a lot longer than Tebow. Sure being hurried and hurt affects every QB, but it crushes Orton. Which is why I'm hoping that Tebow can be more mobile and improvistational because I think behind our line we'll need it.

The criticism of the offensive line is way over done and not completely accurate. Orton had a tendency to hold onto the ball way to long and as you mentioned he also is immobile.

[Northman]

The criticism of the offensive line is way over done and not completely accurate. Orton had a tendency to hold onto the ball way to long and as you mentioned he also is immobile.

A-fricking-men dude. :lol:

[SOCALORADO.]

The criticism of the offensive line is way over done and not completely accurate. Orton had a tendency to hold onto the ball way to long and as you mentioned he also is immobile.

And he has wet noodles for arms.
This is the main reason the team began to fade by week 7-8 last year.
Teams began to dare Orton to throw deep, which he couldnt, by stacking the box and clogging the intermediate routes. All that traffic caused Orton to hold onto the ball too long, He would ONLY look to his short dump off, or the intermediate route, nothing more. And he couldnt adjust by throwing deep to keep teams respectable. This also was a reason why the running game also suffered. The lanes were so clogged and once a RB did break through, he was immediately met with defenders, who were there if DEN passed or ran. Didnt matter to opposing defenses, cause they knew Orton couldnt get it deep. Buckhalter still managed to make some plays cause hes shifty, but thats gotta wear on a RB.
Eventually all those 3 and outs begin to wear on the defense. If that happens again this year, you can kiss Orton goodbye. The DEN D-Line is NOT young enough to sustain long periods of play on the field.
And yes, the O-line had some struggles too. its not all on Orton.

[topscribe]

Sounds like the noodle arm fanatics are going to be eating crow.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Yup. Hate to say I told you so, but . . .


Nonetheless, I don't see them accepting any crow. As demonstrated in this very
thread, they persist in their "noodle arm" claims despite reports such as these . . .

-----

[BroncoWave]

Yup. Hate to say I told you so, but . . .


Nonetheless, I don't see them accepting any crow. As demonstrated in this very
thread, they persist in their "noodle arm" claims despite reports such as these . . .

-----

:lol: Told us what? It's freaking June.

We'll see what he does in actual games instead of a helmet and shorts. :coffee:

[GGMoogly]

I've got something to say to you, Andrew,

http://www.methodshop.com/video/reviews/cowbell/fever.jpg

I gotta fever...and the only prescription is...MORE TEBOW! :D

[Lonestar]

Yup. Hate to say I told you so, but . . .


Nonetheless, I don't see them accepting any crow. As demonstrated in this very
thread, they persist in their "noodle arm" claims despite reports such as these . . .

-----

last year no reports of going deep people bitched, noodle arm

during the season no deep balls, noodle arm

one of the first time we had a deep threat practice NOW we have a confirmed report by a great reliable reporter and its still noodle arm.

some folks would bitch if they were beat with a golden rope.

[TXBRONC]

:lol: Told us what? It's freaking June.

We'll see what he does in actual games instead of a helmet and shorts. :coffee:

My thoughts exactly. So what Orton threw a few deep passes in freakin practice. Lets see what happens in a game that matters.

[Bosco]

I don't think so. Orton doesn't have the strength that he needs

Sorry, that's not even close to true. Orton may not have elite arm strength, but he can make all the throws. His accuracy on deep passes is a much bigger issue.

[Fan in Exile]

Sorry, that's not even close to true. Orton may not have elite arm strength, but he can make all the throws. His accuracy on deep passes is a much bigger issue.

Sorry, you're not even close to being right. Look at the games from last year and you'll see the truth.

It's exactly like what I said when he has time for the mechanics and he's healthy he can make all the throws if not he doesn't have the arm strength to make up for anything else.

Of course even the way you say proves you don't really know what you're talking about since accuracy is one of the things that suffers when people don't have enough arm strength to really make the throws.

[Fan in Exile]

last year no reports of going deep people bitched, noodle arm

during the season no deep balls, noodle arm

one of the first time we had a deep threat practice NOW we have a confirmed report by a great reliable reporter and its still noodle arm.

some folks would bitch if they were beat with a golden rope.

Seriously you're the one making this post, give me a freaking break.

You've always harped on fluff off-season pieces and torn apart anything "Mikey" did. You haven't gotten any place to stand when it comes to talking about other posters not being happy JR.

[broncofaninfla]

I like reading anything postive about Denver but they haven't even started banging pads yet. Hopefully Orton can throw the deep balls when it counts.

[SOCALORADO.]

I like reading anything postive about Denver but they haven't even started banging pads yet. Hopefully Orton can throw the deep balls when it counts.

Cant do it. Never has. Orton cant throw deep, simply because he doesnt have the arm strength. This was very apparent last year. Intermediate to short passes. Thats it. Anything deep, and orton contorts his entire body into the throw and theres no telling where its coming down. Orton cant hit the broadside of a barn deep. Last year vs WASH, Orton even had a busted play and Marshall streaking down the field wide open, deep, and Marshall had to adjust and come back to the ball.
He cant hit a WR in stride, streaking down the field deep.....unless its practice, and according to the blog, he cant even do that accurately.
I am not saying Orton sucks, but he just cant do it.
Either could Plummer. Man, that guy would throw some ducks up there!
Some QBs just cant throw deep, and then theres others with cannons, that can throw a frozen rope 60 yards on ther run against there body.

[arapaho2]

Yup. Hate to say I told you so, but . . .


Nonetheless, I don't see them accepting any crow. As demonstrated in this very
thread, they persist in their "noodle arm" claims despite reports such as these . . .

-----


we all know ....throwing a long ball in practise with no hitting the qb, no pads and in situations that mean nothing other than trying plays out

is the same as a real game, with real big men comeing after you, with real defenders and where not getting the ball deep and on target means a int that could cost a game...:lol::lol:

[arapaho2]

Sorry, that's not even close to true. Orton may not have elite arm strength, but he can make all the throws. His accuracy on deep passes is a much bigger issue.


isnt it a common understanding that accuracy is the first thing that suffers if you have to force it to get it deep:rolleyes:

[TXBRONC]

I like reading anything postive about Denver but they haven't even started banging pads yet. Hopefully Orton can throw the deep balls when it counts.

My thoughts exactly. It's one thing to do it in practice it's another to do it with an opposing defense that's coming after you.

[TXBRONC]

Cant do it. Never has. Orton cant throw deep, simply because he doesnt have the arm strength. This was very apparent last year. Intermediate to short passes. Thats it. Anything deep, and orton contorts his entire body into the throw and theres no telling where its coming down. Orton cant hit the broadside of a barn deep. Last year vs WASH, Orton even had a busted play and Marshall streaking down the field wide open, deep, and Marshall had to adjust and come back to the ball.
He cant hit a WR in stride, streaking down the field deep.....unless its practice, and according to the blog, he cant even do that accurately.
I am not saying Orton sucks, but he just cant do it.
Either could Plummer. Man, that guy would throw some ducks up there!
Some QBs just cant throw deep, and then theres others with cannons, that can throw a frozen rope 60 yards on ther run against there body.

I disagree with you just ever so slightly Socal. On a fly or go route he chunk it about 60 yards or so. He just doesn't do it very well hence we didn't see him do it but once all of last season. Look at Drew Brees no one will ever accuse him of being able to throw a ball on frozen rope but he is deadly on fly and go routes because he's good at placing the right amount of air under the ball.

You really shouldn't bring up Plummer because you run the risk being accused of hating on him and not letting the past go. ;)

[topscribe]

we all know ....throwing a long ball in practise with no hitting the qb, no pads and in situations that mean nothing other than trying plays out

is the same as a real game, with real big men comeing after you, with real defenders and where not getting the ball deep and on target means a int that could cost a game...:lol::lol:

I guess,then, you've never seen Kyle in a real game . . . :coffee:

-----

[topscribe]

Sorry, you're not even close to being right. Look at the games from last year and you'll see the truth.

It's exactly like what I said when he has time for the mechanics and he's healthy he can make all the throws if not he doesn't have the arm strength to make up for anything else.

Of course even the way you say proves you don't really know what you're talking about since accuracy is one of the things that suffers when people don't have enough arm strength to really make the throws.

I don't know what you consider "arm strength." But as a high school senior,
Orton threw the ball 74 yards. Again, that is as a high school kid. His "Hail Mary"
pass at the end of the first half in the NE game went about 65 yards in the air.

I also don't know what you consider as "healthy." When a QB has a high ankle
sprain, that QB's passing is going to suffer, no matter which John Elway, Brett
Favre, or Jay Cutler you may be talking about. For a right-handed QB, when
the right ankle is sprained, he can't push off properly, if at all. I when the left
ankle is sprained, he can't plant the foot properly. Both situations hurt both
velocity and accuracy. This is not debatable.

Orton has needed improvement in certain areas, there is no doubt about that.
But when you start doubting his arm strength, you are talking from a point of
ignorance.

-----

[SOCALORADO.]

I dis agree with you just ever so slightly Socal. On a fly or go route he chunk it about 60 yards or so. He just doesn't do it very well hence we didn't see him do it but once all of last season. Look at Drew Brees no one will ever accuse him of being able to throw a ball on frozen rope but he is deadly on fly and go routes because he's good at placing the right amount of air under the ball.

You really shouldn't bring up Plummer because you run the risk being accused of hating on him and not letting the past go. ;)

Brees is deadly accurate no matter how he throws it.
How many go routes can DEN run?!?!
Orton needs to be able to throw deep from every aspect of the offense, which he cant do.

As i was typing Plummers name i was thinking i should put in an "anti-hate on Plummer" disclaimer. *sighs*

[NightTrainLayne]

I don't know what you consider "arm strength." But as a high school senior,
Orton threw the ball 74 yards. Again, that is as a high school kid. His "Hail Mary"
pass at the end of the first half in the NE game went about 65 yards in the air.

I also don't know what you consider as "healthy." When a QB has a high ankle
sprain, that QB's passing is going to suffer, no matter which John Elway, Brett
Favre, or Jay Cutler you may be talking about. For a right-handed QB, when
the right ankle is sprained, he can't push off properly, if at all. I when the left
ankle is sprained, he can't plant the foot properly. Both situations hurt both
velocity and accuracy. This is not debatable.

Orton has needed improvement in certain areas, there is no doubt about that.
But when you start doubting his arm strength, you are talking from a point of
ignorance.

-----

Top, I've seen you make this argument many, many times, and it simply isn't a realistic argument.

ANY QB that makes it to the NFL stage can throw the ball 60-70 yards in the air. It's really not a test of arm strength to make the ball fly a great distance. The test of arm strength is accurately throwing it a great distance, and accurately throwing the short/intermediate routes with plenty of zip on the ball in order to beat defenders to the point of completion.

Jake Plummer was great at the deep ball when he had time, but nobody would argue that he had an above-average arm strength.

I like Orton. I think he's our guy for this next season, and maybe even two. This is great because it allows us to take time to develop Tebow. I think Orton's arm-strength is plenty adequate for our offense (as opposed to many who think it inadequate). However, arguing that he has a strong arm just because he can throw it 70 yards in the air is not really a good argument.

[underrated29]

Socal- whats with all the plummer hate? You should really let the pas go.

[topscribe]

Top, I've seen you make this argument many, many times, and it simply isn't a realistic argument.

ANY QB that makes it to the NFL stage can throw the ball 60-70 yards in the air. It's really not a test of arm strength to make the ball fly a great distance. The test of arm strength is accurately throwing it a great distance, and accurately throwing the short/intermediate routes with plenty of zip on the ball in order to beat defenders to the point of completion.

Jake Plummer was great at the deep ball when he had time, but nobody would argue that he had an above-average arm strength.

I like Orton. I think he's our guy for this next season, and maybe even two. This is great because it allows us to take time to develop Tebow. I think Orton's arm-strength is plenty adequate for our offense (as opposed to many who think it inadequate). However, arguing that he has a strong arm just because he can throw it 70 yards in the air is not really a good argument.

Nor am I arguing that Orton has "above average" arm strength. I don't know
what is wrong with the reading comprehension skills in some cases on this
board, but I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever made that claim.

I have not tried to persuade anybody that Orton has "above average" arm
strength. I have rebutted those who have either implied or said outright that
Orton has a "rag" or "noodle" arm, or that he does not have the arm strength
to throw deep That...is...all...I...have...done.

How elementary do I have to get for people to understand what I have been
getting at?

Let me address this again, just for good measure: Certain posters have said
that Orton does not have the arm strength to throw deep. I have personally
witnessed his arm strength. He can and has thrown deep. I have said that
he needs to improve his accuracy deep, but he can do it just fine.

Now, notice I said absolutely nothing about "above average" arm strength.

I hope this clears it up. It's getting pretty frustrating that certain people are
putting words into my mouth and representing me to have said what I have
not said . . .

-----

[BroncoWave]

:lol: at the self high five.

[GEM]

Nor am I arguing that Orton has "above average" arm strength. I don't know
what is wrong with the reading comprehension skills in some cases on this
board, but I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever made that claim.

I have not tried to persuade anybody that Orton has "above average" arm
strength. I have rebutted those who have either implied or said outright that
Orton has a "rag" or "noodle" arm, or that he does not have the arm strength
to throw deep That...is...all...I...have...done.

How elementary do I have to get for people to understand what I have been
getting at?

Let me address this again, just for good measure: Certain posters have said
that Orton does not have the arm strength to throw deep. I have personally
witnessed his arm strength. He can and has thrown deep. I have said that
he needs to improve his accuracy deep, but he can do it just fine.

Now, notice I said absolutely nothing about "above average" arm strength.

I hope this clears it up. It's getting pretty frustrating that certain people are
putting words into my mouth and representing me to have said what I have
not said . . .

-----

And why do you have to get downright insulting when all NTL asked was football related. He didn't get insulting, he asked a question. No reason for the reading comprehension or the elementary comments.

[topscribe]

I have two people on this board on Ignore. At least one of you knows who he is
. . . or should. So I haven't the foggiest what you are saying. Only that you
posted something.

FYI

-----

[Bosco]

Sorry, you're not even close to being right. Look at the games from last year and you'll see the truth. I've watched all the games from last year (multiple times) plus my fair share of Orton's games from Purdue and Chicago, so I'm probably more qualified to comment on Orton's arm strength than 90% of Broncos fans.

But if you don't believe me, you can always check out Orton's pre-draft scouting reports, all of which comment on his strong arm. Or you can check out the week 17 game where he was throwing frozen ropes 35-40 yards downfield, across his body, right into Gaffney's hands.

The only people who think Orton has a weak arm are Broncos fans who only see arm strength in two colors, where you Elway/Cutler types on one side and everything else is unacceptable.


Of course even the way you say proves you don't really know what you're talking about since accuracy is one of the things that suffers when people don't have enough arm strength to really make the throws. Not at all. Accuracy comes from mechanics much more so than arm strength, and then the problem is compounded for guys who lack elite arm strength because the mechanics further degrade arm strength, so they try forcing the ball and lose accuracy again. It's a the perfect example of a domino effect.

Thankfully, under McD's tutelage, Orton's mechanics improved more than they ever have in his career. I'm expecting another step forward this year if Quinn doesn't beat him out for the job.

[topscribe]

And why do you have to get downright insulting when all NTL asked was football related. He didn't get insulting, he asked a question. No reason for the reading comprehension or the elementary comments.

Why the thin skin? That was not intended as an insult. That is frustration.

Time and time and time and time and time and time again, I am accused of
trying to vaunt Orton as some kind of superstar when I am only trying to correct
false information. Why Orton? Because he is the one player I know about. He is
the only one I ever launched such a study on, except Elway years ago. One
tends to write and talk about what one knows.

But when words are repeatedly put into my mouth and I am repeatedly
represented as saying what I have not, I get frustrated. And I begin to wonder
about the reading comprehension skills of certain people on the board. I really
do. Else, why can they not understand what I am saying as I say it?

As for you, have you lost your ability to PM?

-----

[jrelway]

its not even training camp yet. Noodle arm hasn't proven anything so far. So lets not crown his ass already just from an article.

[jrelway]

last year no reports of going deep people bitched, noodle arm

during the season no deep balls, noodle arm

one of the first time we had a deep threat practice NOW we have a confirmed report by a great reliable reporter and its still noodle arm.

some folks would bitch if they were beat with a golden rope.

throwing the deep ball with no pressure in your face or knowing your gonna get wacked after you throw it is different JR. We bitch cause in real games, he proves that he cant throw it deep. Hence the name noodle arm.

[SOCALORADO.]

Socal- whats with all the plummer hate? You should really let the pas go.

:lol:

[topscribe]

I've watched all the games from last year (multiple times) plus my fair share of Orton's games from Purdue and Chicago, so I'm probably more qualified to comment on Orton's arm strength than 90% of Broncos fans.

But if you don't believe me, you can always check out Orton's pre-draft scouting reports, all of which comment on his strong arm. Or you can check out the week 17 game where he was throwing frozen ropes 35-40 yards downfield, across his body, right into Gaffney's hands.

The only people who think Orton has a weak arm are Broncos fans who only see arm strength in two colors, where you Elway/Cutler types on one side and everything else is unacceptable.

Not at all. Accuracy comes from mechanics much more so than arm strength, and then the problem is compounded for guys who lack elite arm strength because the mechanics further degrade arm strength, so they try forcing the ball and lose accuracy again. It's a the perfect example of a domino effect.

Thankfully, under McD's tutelage, Orton's mechanics improved more than they ever have in his career. I'm expecting another step forward this year if Quinn doesn't beat him out for the job.

I'm with you. I've said it before: When Orton was traded to Denver, I had a
very negative reaction to it. I had a negative prejudice against him. For some
reason, however, I went back and found everything I could find about him:
highlights, lowlights, articles, analyses . . . everything. I couldn't tell you how
many hours I put into it, but it was a lot. (I will never do that again . . . I lost
a lot of money in time I could have spent more productively.)

You studied him objectively and arrived at much the same conclusion as I:
While Orton is not "elite," in terms of Elway/Manning/Montana, he is potentially
a very good QB. But I'm much in the position of most others here: I am hoping
he realizes that potential because he wears an orange & blue uniform, and for
no other reason.

-----

[Tempus Fugit]

throwing the deep ball with no pressure in your face or knowing your gonna get wacked after you throw it is different JR. We bitch cause in real games, he proves that he cant throw it deep. Hence the name noodle arm.

Then your bitch isn't arm strength. It's accuracy on the deep ball. They are two separate issues.

Just ask Ryan Leaf, J.P. Losman, et al...

[arapaho2]

I guess,then, you've never seen Kyle in a real game . . . :coffee:

-----


ive seen more then enough to know...when it comes to getting the ball deep...he chooses the safe underneath throw...unless the wr is completely wide open lke marshall was in the skins game...or royal

wait...marshall had to come back for one underthrown ball...and orton completly missed royal who was open by 15 yards at least

yea i think i seen enough to make a decision:coffee:

[TXBRONC]

Brees is deadly accurate no matter how he throws it.
How many go routes can DEN run?!?!
Orton needs to be able to throw deep from every aspect of the offense, which he cant do.

As i was typing Plummers name i was thinking i should put in an "anti-hate on Plummer" disclaimer. *sighs*

I don't know how many go routes Denver can run. I think we don't for two reasons:

1.) Orton isn't comfortable throwing the ball deep because it's something he doesn't do well. Is because he doesn't have the physical strength to throw it deep? Maybe. But to me it looks like just doesn't know how much air he needs to get under the ball.

2.) Orton by own admission says he plays not to make mistakes. Offenses including McDaniels have someone going deep on most ipass plays but it seems to me that Orton will pass up bigger plays because he doesn't want to take the risk.

Yeah some people get really touchy about bringing up past players as an example. It also seems to be the same people who want to turn everything into posts about Cutler or Shanahan.

[NightTrainLayne]

Nor am I arguing that Orton has "above average" arm strength. I don't know
what is wrong with the reading comprehension skills in some cases on this
board, but I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever made that claim.

I have not tried to persuade anybody that Orton has "above average" arm
strength. I have rebutted those who have either implied or said outright that
Orton has a "rag" or "noodle" arm, or that he does not have the arm strength
to throw deep That...is...all...I...have...done.

How elementary do I have to get for people to understand what I have been
getting at?

Let me address this again, just for good measure: Certain posters have said
that Orton does not have the arm strength to throw deep. I have personally
witnessed his arm strength. He can and has thrown deep. I have said that
he needs to improve his accuracy deep, but he can do it just fine.

Now, notice I said absolutely nothing about "above average" arm strength.

I hope this clears it up. It's getting pretty frustrating that certain people are
putting words into my mouth and representing me to have said what I have
not said . . .

-----

Again, the argument I've seen you make is that the ball flew 65 yards in the air on the hail mary before the half against New England, which was intercepted, and other similar examples in which you simply measure the distance the ball flew rather than taking into account other factors such as accuracy.

Again, I'm on your side, so no need to be rude, I'm just trying to help improve your argument by pointing out its weaknesses.

[Ravage!!!]

Taking two-three steps forward and LAUNCHING the ball up into the air and watching it travel 50 yards doesn't prove you have a strong arm. People continue to try and prove the arm strength by some lousy hail mary, with no pressure, and the ability to take two steps forward and HEAVE the ball.

Arm strength comes into play when you can't take those steps forward, when you have a guy coming into your face, and have to throw the ball on a line further than 5 yards at the slant route. Its being on the right hash, and hitting the out-route on the left side of the field.

The 'long bomb' is a lousy indicator of arm strength... especially since the long ball is only used about 3-4 times a game... at MOST in this offense especially.

Lets see the deep crossing route, and hitting the ball on the line with the blitz crashing in on your.. or moving from the pocket and ACTUALLY being able to throw the ball down field and not simply hitting the dump. Falling back and putting the ball on a strike, thats arm strength that matters.

[topscribe]

Taking two-three steps forward and LAUNCHING the ball up into the air and watching it travel 50 yards doesn't prove you have a strong arm. People continue to try and prove the arm strength by some lousy hail mary, with no pressure, and the ability to take two steps forward and HEAVE the ball.

Arm strength comes into play when you can't take those steps forward, when you have a guy coming into your face, and have to throw the ball on a line further than 5 yards at the slant route. Its being on the right hash, and hitting the out-route on the left side of the field.

The 'long bomb' is a lousy indicator of arm strength... especially since the long ball is only used about 3-4 times a game... at MOST in this offense especially.

Lets see the deep crossing route, and hitting the ball on the line with the blitz crashing in on your.. or moving from the pocket and ACTUALLY being able to throw the ball down field and not simply hitting the dump. Falling back and putting the ball on a strike, thats arm strength that matters.

I've already seen all those. That's because I really have seen Orton.

-----

[TXBRONC]

I've already seen all those. That's because I really have seen Orton.

-----

You're not the only person that has seen Orton play and just because they don't come to same conclusions that a novice like you comes to doesn't mean you have to be rude and condescending. :coffee:

[TXBRONC]

:lol: at the self high five.

Have you ever heard of Diamond Dallas Page? He was pro wrestler who liked to self high five himself as part of his act. Maybe Top is DDP?: :lol:

[topscribe]

Again, the argument I've seen you make is that the ball flew 65 yards in the air on the hail mary before the half against New England, which was intercepted, and other similar examples in which you simply measure the distance the ball flew rather than taking into account other factors such as accuracy.

Again, I'm on your side, so no need to be rude, I'm just trying to help improve your argument by pointing out its weaknesses.

The pass was accurate. It was intercepted because it was a jump ball. But it
came down where it was supposed to. You see, you are assuming, now . . .
assuming that allllllllll I have taken into consideration is how far the ball went.

You comment on all the posts I have written, yet you have not seemed to
comprehend them. I have talked about all facets of Orton's game.

And I was not intentionally being rude. I apologize if it seemed I was. I was
sincerely questioning the reading comprehension skills of some on this board.
Perhaps I could have more appropriately referred to it as the failure to apply
properly their reading skills. That way, I might not have come across as so
demeaning in the minds of some.

It's really amazing to me: I could probably say to you that you don't dribble a
basketball very well or you can't run very fast, and you might nod your head
in agreement, were that true. But mention reading or spelling, and it's like the
respondent is ready for a fight.

But if I have written until I am blue in the face about something, and they
come back and try to tell me I have said something other than what I have
said, what am I supposed to think?

The only other possibility that I can see is that some people cannot realize
the facts if the facts are right there in front of them, plain as the noses on
their respective faces. That is because we tend to believe what we want to
believe, the truth be damned.

Now, in this asinine ongoing debate over Orton, I have rarely said anything
without backing it up with facts and figures. I have not predicted (as they
have). I have not made ambiguous, generalized claims (as they have). I have
pointed out what he has already done, many times citing the specific game
or event in which he did it. I have done nothing more.

I am not a fan of Orton's, except that he is a Denver Broncos QB. I am going
by what I have witnessed in him, according to his play over the last several
years. And, as I said, I did not start out with a favorable opinion of Orton.
That happened as I saw game after game, play after play, highlights and
lowlights. And I still do not consider him "elite" . . . just better than others
seem to think he is . . . from the considerable footage I have viewed.

Now, if all this is unreasonable, then maybe I should question the rationality
of some people on this board, too, because I believe this is a pretty level-
headed approach.

-----

[TXBRONC]

ive seen more then enough to know...when it comes to getting the ball deep...he chooses the safe underneath throw...unless the wr is completely wide open lke marshall was in the skins game...or royal

wait...marshall had to come back for one underthrown ball...and orton completly missed royal who was open by 15 yards at least

yea i think i seen enough to make a decision:coffee:

There is no telling how many times Orton may have passed up wide open receivers further down the field just so that he could take the safer to completion to Marshall.

[Bosco]

ive seen more then enough to know...when it comes to getting the ball deep...he chooses the safe underneath throw...unless the wr is completely wide open lke marshall was in the skins game...or royal While this is true, it has nothing to do with arm strength.


and orton completly missed royal who was open by 15 yards at least I assume you're talking about the pass in the Redskins game. If so, really had slowed down, turned back to look for the ball and then couldn't get in position.

I don't know if he last the ball in the sun or what, but him slowing down is the reason that pass was incomplete.

[bcbronc]

I don't know if it's because of arm strength, accuracy, or mind set, but I do know that when Orton throws the ball down field, I rarely end up happy.

[pnbronco]

Apologize for the page not working; I've been battling some database issues; that's why it wasn't working. The site might be going in and out for a little while longer.


Hey Andrew....It's nice to read your articles again. Hope to see you around here more, I look forward to reading what you have to say once camp starts.

[NightTrainLayne]

The pass was accurate. It was intercepted because it was a jump ball. But it
came down where it was supposed to. You see, you are assuming, now . . .
assuming that allllllllll I have taken into consideration is how far the ball went.
-----

The pass was accurate because "it came down where it was supposed to?"

Top, my reading skills and comprehension are just fine. How you can logically argue that the hail mary pass "came down where it was supposed to" is beyond me. I mean it came back to Earth, somewhere near the goal-line, so in that sense it came down where it was supposed to, but ANY QB in the NFL, (even the third-stringers) could make that throw.

I've got a thought experiment for you (since we obviously can't run the experiment for real). Take all 32 starting QBs, and place a stationary player at the goal-line. Have all 32 heave the ball at them from 60 yards, and see who comes closest to the player.

I would wager that virtually all of them would get the ball there, and within a relatively short distance from the player (i.e. it would be easily catchable).

That Orton can do this as well is not really an endorsement of his game, or his arm strength.

I'll save you some time. .. don't bother with another 5 paragraphs about how I don't understand your argument.

[topscribe]

The pass was accurate because "it came down where it was supposed to?"

Top, my reading skills and comprehension are just fine. How you can logically argue that the hail mary pass "came down where it was supposed to" is beyond me. I mean it came back to Earth, somewhere near the goal-line, so in that sense it came down where it was supposed to, but ANY QB in the NFL, (even the third-stringers) could make that throw.

I've got a thought experiment for you (since we obviously can't run the experiment for real). Take all 32 starting QBs, and place a stationary player at the goal-line. Have all 32 heave the ball at them from 60 yards, and see who comes closest to the player.

I would wager that virtually all of them would get the ball there, and within a relatively short distance from the player (i.e. it would be easily catchable).

That Orton can do this as well is not really an endorsement of his game, or his arm strength.

I'll save you some time. .. don't bother with another 5 paragraphs about how I don't understand your argument.

After all I have written over the last year and three or four months about
Orton, and my argument boils down to one 65-yard "Hail Mary" pass?

What a total waste of keystrokes it has all been.:tsk:

-----

[TXBRONC]

The pass was accurate because "it came down where it was supposed to?"

Top, my reading skills and comprehension are just fine. How you can logically argue that the hail mary pass "came down where it was supposed to" is beyond me. I mean it came back to Earth, somewhere near the goal-line, so in that sense it came down where it was supposed to, but ANY QB in the NFL, (even the third-stringers) could make that throw.

I've got a thought experiment for you (since we obviously can't run the experiment for real). Take all 32 starting QBs, and place a stationary player at the goal-line. Have all 32 heave the ball at them from 60 yards, and see who comes closest to the player.

I would wager that virtually all of them would get the ball there, and within a relatively short distance from the player (i.e. it would be easily catchable).

That Orton can do this as well is not really an endorsement of his game, or his arm strength.

I'll save you some time. .. don't bother with another 5 paragraphs about how I don't understand your argument.

A hail mary is jump ball with the hopes that it will bounce off of defenders hands into one of your receivers hands. It has nothing to do with accuracy.

[arapaho2]

T
While this is true, it has nothing to do with arm strength.

I assume you're talking about the pass in the Redskins game. If so, really had slowed down, turned back to look for the ball and then couldn't get in position.

I don't know if he last the ball in the sun or what, but him slowing down is the reason that pass was incomplete.

It does have to do with the arm....if its the case he chooses the safe throw because he doesn't trust him own arm to make the throw

[GGMoogly]

...I couldn't tell you how
many hours I put into it, but it was a lot. (I will never do that again . . . I lost
a lot of money in time I could have spent more productively.)
-----

I don't even know you and I can tell THIS is a lie. :D

[Bosco]

T

It does have to do with the arm....if its the case he chooses the safe throw because he doesn't trust him own arm to make the throw

You don't think it has something to do with his overly safe method of play? That's much more likely, considering a large body of evidence suggests that he has plenty of arm strength.

[topscribe]

I don't even know you and I can tell THIS is a lie. :D

Nope. That was a lot of work, and I have a strong aversion to unpaid work. ;)

-----

[topscribe]

You don't think it has something to do with his overly safe method of play? That's much more likely, considering a large body of evidence suggests that he has plenty of arm strength.

In fact, Orton showed a little bit of frustration in one presser toward the end of
last year, implying that he would like to pass deep more often. We have to
remember that Orton did not call the plays . . .

-----

[TXBRONC]

Just because Orton whined about the play calling doesn't mean he didn't have the opportunity to throw deep. Duh everyone knows he doesn't call the plays but neither do most of the quarterbacks in the League. It's not unique to the Broncos. I know of only one quarterback that does call his own plays, Peyton Manning. So it was disingenuous of Orton to cry that he didn't have opportunity to take the ball. In this offense every other offense in the League you have someone going deep on most pass plays. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Orton was taking the safer throws.

If he did such a great job why did McDaniels draft a quarterback in the first round? It sure as hell wasn't so the guy could carry a clipboard for the entirety of his career. It's not rocket science to figure out why McDaniels drafted Tebow in the first round. :coffee:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

In fact, Orton showed a little bit of frustration in one presser toward the end of
last year, implying that he would like to pass deep more often. We have to
remember that Orton did not call the plays . . .

-----

The only thing that I can use as examples as to Orton's "deep passes" and his success or failure with them come on the few times I actually saw him throw them.

- 2 were to Marshall in the Washington game. Both the WR was uncovered and the QB was not pressured. Both were smashing successes.

- One was to Marshall during the Cincy game that was tipped by the CB and caught by Stokely FTW. The concensus is pretty much split on whether the pass was underthrown (Marshall had 2 steps on the CB) or whether it was just a fantastic play by the CB. It went for six and I'll give Orton the BOD on this so... good pass.

- The next I remember was the ravens game (I think the first and only time we tried to go deep). No pressure on Orton, he threw up a deep pass that was behind Marshall and Marshall had to stop and turn around for it giving the CB time (our very own Dominique Foxworth) to catch up and to bat it away. Bad throw.

- There was the throw to Marshall in the NYG game when Marshall had to make a superhuman leap to come down with the ball. Had it been anyone else, that pass was picked. I'll give KO the BOD that he knew Marshall could climb the ladder on that one, but it still was a poorly thrown ball.

- There was the deep out to Stokely in the Giants game (the first and only deep out I saw from Orton all year, the hardest throw to make in football) where Kyle didn't get enough mustard on it and the CB undercut it for the INT.

- There was the throw to Scheffler in the Philly game where he was covered by Samuels where Orton threw it behind Scheffler and Samuels (the covering CB) was in the under/inside/trail position. The result was an INT.

- There was the throw to Lloyd during the last KC game where Lloyd had Johnson (LB) beaten badly on a "go" route up the seam but Orton badly underthrew it and it ended up a pick six.

Other than those, I just don't remember a whole lot of deep passing going on. By the above stats, 3 TDs and 3 INTs on deep balls. Two TDs were uncovered, one INT was returned for six. It doesn't exactly make me want to sing the praises of Orton's deep ball skill right now. I'm willing to give him the BOD this year (not that I have a choice) and I understand he's the starter. I really hope he is the guy that his fan club says he is because if so, it's a win for everyone. If he's not, oh well I only have to watch him in a Broncos uni for one more year!

[Lonestar]

I don't even know you and I can tell THIS is a lie. :D

Believe me when I say Top gets paid commission for sales. When he could have been making money he did a lot of film study and research on Orton. So if any one is the resident BRONCO fan expert on the guy.

Top is older than dirt and perhaps one of 5-6 fans on here from day one SEP 1960 to be a fan back then.

He has a commitment to the donkey that few others have.

That said was an original memember of this forum and mod for the first two plus years putting in more hours on here than even myslef and Tned. Many time I'd go to bed at 2am and he was stiil on duty and would get back on at 9-10a and he was already moderating.

If he said it it was true.
He also gets CRANKY when called a liar.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Lonestar]

The only thing that I can use as examples as to Orton's "deep passes" and his success or failure with them come on the few times I actually saw him throw them.

- 2 were to Marshall in the Washington game. Both the WR was uncovered and the QB was not pressured. Both were smashing successes.

- One was to Marshall during the Cincy game that was tipped by the CB and caught by Stokely FTW. The concensus is pretty much split on whether the pass was underthrown (Marshall had 2 steps on the CB) or whether it was just a fantastic play by the CB. It went for six and I'll give Orton the BOD on this so... good pass.

- The next I remember was the ravens game (I think the first and only time we tried to go deep). No pressure on Orton, he threw up a deep pass that was behind Marshall and Marshall had to stop and turn around for it giving the CB time (our very own Dominique Foxworth) to catch up and to bat it away. Bad throw.

- There was the throw to Marshall in the NYG game when Marshall had to make a superhuman leap to come down with the ball. Had it been anyone else, that pass was picked. I'll give KO the BOD that he knew Marshall could climb the ladder on that one, but it still was a poorly thrown ball.

- There was the deep out to Stokely in the Giants game (the first and only deep out I saw from Orton all year, the hardest throw to make in football) where Kyle didn't get enough mustard on it and the CB undercut it for the INT.

- There was the throw to Scheffler in the Philly game where he was covered by Samuels where Orton threw it behind Scheffler and Samuels (the covering CB) was in the under/inside/trail position. The result was an INT.

- There was the throw to Lloyd during the last KC game where Lloyd had Johnson (LB) beaten badly on a "go" route up the seam but Orton badly underthrew it and it ended up a pick six.

Other than those, I just don't remember a whole lot of deep passing going on. By the above stats, 3 TDs and 3 INTs on deep balls. Two TDs were uncovered, one INT was returned for six. It doesn't exactly make me want to sing the praises of Orton's deep ball skill right now. I'm willing to give him the BOD this year (not that I have a choice) and I understand he's the starter. I really hope he is the guy that his fan club says he is because if so, it's a win for everyone. If he's not, oh well I only have to watch him in a Broncos uni for one more year!

Thanks for the INFO.

The only thoughts I have were in some of those games KOs finger/glove could have affected his "touch". And some later in the season for sure had some issues with the HIGH ankle sprain.

Plus not having a very good Pocket to pass from adds to the dilemia

Not to excuse them but to add to the reasons.

Now can he throw deep consistently this season should tell the tale.

Might I add, not sure we really had any deep threats last year. I also womder because of that just how much practice (for timing)was done throwing the long ball.

Now we seem to have a couple of burners one with size we will see one way or the other.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[LordTrychon]

Now we seem to have a couple of burners one with size we will see one way or the other.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Regardless of what happens this year, he will be defended by having his 'burners' be rookies... unless you're referring to Royal, who we all hope has a return to form this year.

I say that, because I think it's a pretty valid reason to continue to struggle...

But I'm not sure he'll have another year to prove it after this one. Too many ifs involved.

[Lonestar]

Regardless of what happens this year, he will be defended by having his 'burners' be rookies... unless you're referring to Royal, who we all hope has a return to form this year.

I say that, because I think it's a pretty valid reason to continue to struggle...

But I'm not sure he'll have another year to prove it after this one. Too many ifs involved.

Not all are rookies we had ONE guy from late last year Mc kinney IIRC that seems to be fast. But we hav e a couple. Newbies this year that will add to the MIX.
Now I'm sad to hear that legit REASONs are called "defended".

Did you personallythink this team last year had a tinkers dam chance to get to the play off considering all the changes.

Some on here believe it is their divine right as a Fan to be super bowl teams each year.

Pat would not habe fired mike if he wanted to just continue he offense and ways.

He damned sure woul not have expected Josh to try and run mikes playbook knowing that he came from a SPREAD formation PBS team.

Why anyone thought they shoiuld have the #2 offence last year is so totally of the believeability scale even VEGAS would not lay odds on it

The whinning about Josh deteriorating the O (BTW it was only between the 20's) is laughable at best.

Considering all the player, coaches, schemes changes a winning season was immprobable then add in the injuries.

Well expectations from most were unrealistic.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[topscribe]

The only thing that I can use as examples as to Orton's "deep passes" and his success or failure with them come on the few times I actually saw him throw them.

- 2 were to Marshall in the Washington game. Both the WR was uncovered and the QB was not pressured. Both were smashing successes.

- One was to Marshall during the Cincy game that was tipped by the CB and caught by Stokely FTW. The concensus is pretty much split on whether the pass was underthrown (Marshall had 2 steps on the CB) or whether it was just a fantastic play by the CB. It went for six and I'll give Orton the BOD on this so... good pass.

- The next I remember was the ravens game (I think the first and only time we tried to go deep). No pressure on Orton, he threw up a deep pass that was behind Marshall and Marshall had to stop and turn around for it giving the CB time (our very own Dominique Foxworth) to catch up and to bat it away. Bad throw.

- There was the throw to Marshall in the NYG game when Marshall had to make a superhuman leap to come down with the ball. Had it been anyone else, that pass was picked. I'll give KO the BOD that he knew Marshall could climb the ladder on that one, but it still was a poorly thrown ball.

- There was the deep out to Stokely in the Giants game (the first and only deep out I saw from Orton all year, the hardest throw to make in football) where Kyle didn't get enough mustard on it and the CB undercut it for the INT.

- There was the throw to Scheffler in the Philly game where he was covered by Samuels where Orton threw it behind Scheffler and Samuels (the covering CB) was in the under/inside/trail position. The result was an INT.

- There was the throw to Lloyd during the last KC game where Lloyd had Johnson (LB) beaten badly on a "go" route up the seam but Orton badly underthrew it and it ended up a pick six.

Other than those, I just don't remember a whole lot of deep passing going on. By the above stats, 3 TDs and 3 INTs on deep balls. Two TDs were uncovered, one INT was returned for six. It doesn't exactly make me want to sing the praises of Orton's deep ball skill right now. I'm willing to give him the BOD this year (not that I have a choice) and I understand he's the starter. I really hope he is the guy that his fan club says he is because if so, it's a win for everyone. If he's not, oh well I only have to watch him in a Broncos uni for one more year!

Saluted because I know this post took a little time, and while you lean a bit
"anti-Orton," you also try to make sense of evidence and documentation. So
I have to hand it to you for that.

In addition to what you posted here, there were the two to Gaffney, each
that went 50+ yards in the air and came down on the money - they had to
because Gaffney was tightly covered in both cases. The first was a completion,
and the second would have been a completion in the end zone for a TD, but
for defensive pass interference.

Nonetheless, when the deep passing game for a whole season can be covered
in a post no longer than yours here, there is something wrong, and I am not
prepared to say how much of that was Orton, or McDaniels, or the O-line, or
the receivers.

All I can say is I hope it changes this year and that Orton has been working
hard on his deep game because he has needed to improve in that, no doubt.
Noises from behind the scenes are that he has been doing that, so I hope so.

So in that respect, I am in the same shoes as you: Wait and see . . .

-----

[GGMoogly]

Believe me when I say Top gets paid commission for sales. When he could have been making money he did a lot of film study and research on Orton. So if any one is the resident BRONCO fan expert on the guy.

Top is older than dirt and perhaps one of 5-6 fans on here from day one SEP 1960 to be a fan back then.

He has a commitment to the donkey that few others have.

That said was an original memember of this forum and mod for the first two plus years putting in more hours on here than even myslef and Tned. Many time I'd go to bed at 2am and he was stiil on duty and would get back on at 9-10a and he was already moderating.

If he said it it was true.
He also gets CRANKY when called a liar.
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LOL! I would never badmouth another Bronco fan, especially one as dedicated as Top, but...an unpaid moderator...for a fan website...saying he's no longer...going to waste his time? If he can pull that off, he's DEFINITELY a better man than I. Me? I'm COMPELLED BY INNER DEMONS to waste my time on the Broncos. :eek:

[LordTrychon]

Not all are rookies we had ONE guy from late last year Mc kinney IIRC that seems to be fast. But we hav e a couple. Newbies this year that will add to the MIX.
Now I'm sad to hear that legit REASONs are called "defended".

Did you personallythink this team last year had a tinkers dam chance to get to the play off considering all the changes.

Some on here believe it is their divine right as a Fan to be super bowl teams each year.

Pat would not habe fired mike if he wanted to just continue he offense and ways.

He damned sure woul not have expected Josh to try and run mikes playbook knowing that he came from a SPREAD formation PBS team.

Why anyone thought they shoiuld have the #2 offence last year is so totally of the believeability scale even VEGAS would not lay odds on it

The whinning about Josh deteriorating the O (BTW it was only between the 20's) is laughable at best.

Considering all the player, coaches, schemes changes a winning season was immprobable then add in the injuries.

Well expectations from most were unrealistic.


Do you not usually use legit reasons when defending something? I do. ;)

As usual, I brought up nothing about Mike or the previous offense... other than saying that I hope Royal contributes more this year. I didn't even attribute that to anything.

I said nothing about expectations or any of the other stuff you chose to bring up. I was just saying that I'm not sure that Orton will have a better chance of showing whether or not he can be a good deep passer this year.

Who mentioned anything about whinning?

Seriously. Can you respond to what's posted?

I don't really consider McKinnley a viable contributor because I haven't seen anything from him to make me believe he will be one this year. Rookies have to adjust to the NFL.... and people will be disappointed if they expect huge years out of either of them. I'm just hoping for flashes, and that's all.

[LordTrychon]

Not all are rookies we had ONE guy from late last year Mc kinney IIRC that seems to be fast. But we hav e a couple. Newbies this year that will add to the MIX.
Now I'm sad to hear that legit REASONs are called "defended".

Did you personallythink this team last year had a tinkers dam chance to get to the play off considering all the changes.

Some on here believe it is their divine right as a Fan to be super bowl teams each year.

Pat would not habe fired mike if he wanted to just continue he offense and ways.

He damned sure woul not have expected Josh to try and run mikes playbook knowing that he came from a SPREAD formation PBS team.

Why anyone thought they shoiuld have the #2 offence last year is so totally of the believeability scale even VEGAS would not lay odds on it

The whinning about Josh deteriorating the O (BTW it was only between the 20's) is laughable at best.

Considering all the player, coaches, schemes changes a winning season was immprobable then add in the injuries.

Well expectations from most were unrealistic.
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Now to respond to the rest of the items you brought up for no clear reason...

Yes, I was hoping for, and had an outside expectation for, a 9-7 or 10-6 season. Pat said he didn't bring in a new coach to rebuild... but to win more games. More games = 9-7 at least.

Injuries? Do you remember Mike's last year? That was the most beat up Broncos team I've seen in years. With better health, I think we had decent reason to hope for an improvement on 8-8.

As for all the player changes and scheme changes, well... yeah. New coach... new scheme. Genius. All the player changes? I'm not going there... again... it doesn't have to do with anything that was discussed.

[TXBRONC]

Now to respond to the rest of the items you brought up for no clear reason...

Yes, I was hoping for, and had an outside expectation for, a 9-7 or 10-6 season. Pat said he didn't bring in a new coach to rebuild... but to win more games. More games = 9-7 at least.

Injuries? Do you remember Mike's last year? That was the most beat up Broncos team I've seen in years. With better health, I think we had decent reason to hope for an improvement on 8-8.

As for all the player changes and scheme changes, well... yeah. New coach... new scheme. Genius. All the player changes? I'm not going there... again... it doesn't have to do with anything that was discussed.

Well said LT.

[TXBRONC]

The only thing that I can use as examples as to Orton's "deep passes" and his success or failure with them come on the few times I actually saw him throw them.

- 2 were to Marshall in the Washington game. Both the WR was uncovered and the QB was not pressured. Both were smashing successes.

- One was to Marshall during the Cincy game that was tipped by the CB and caught by Stokely FTW. The concensus is pretty much split on whether the pass was underthrown (Marshall had 2 steps on the CB) or whether it was just a fantastic play by the CB. It went for six and I'll give Orton the BOD on this so... good pass.

- The next I remember was the ravens game (I think the first and only time we tried to go deep). No pressure on Orton, he threw up a deep pass that was behind Marshall and Marshall had to stop and turn around for it giving the CB time (our very own Dominique Foxworth) to catch up and to bat it away. Bad throw.

- There was the throw to Marshall in the NYG game when Marshall had to make a superhuman leap to come down with the ball. Had it been anyone else, that pass was picked. I'll give KO the BOD that he knew Marshall could climb the ladder on that one, but it still was a poorly thrown ball.

- There was the deep out to Stokely in the Giants game (the first and only deep out I saw from Orton all year, the hardest throw to make in football) where Kyle didn't get enough mustard on it and the CB undercut it for the INT.

- There was the throw to Scheffler in the Philly game where he was covered by Samuels where Orton threw it behind Scheffler and Samuels (the covering CB) was in the under/inside/trail position. The result was an INT.

- There was the throw to Lloyd during the last KC game where Lloyd had Johnson (LB) beaten badly on a "go" route up the seam but Orton badly underthrew it and it ended up a pick six.

Other than those, I just don't remember a whole lot of deep passing going on. By the above stats, 3 TDs and 3 INTs on deep balls. Two TDs were uncovered, one INT was returned for six. It doesn't exactly make me want to sing the praises of Orton's deep ball skill right now. I'm willing to give him the BOD this year (not that I have a choice) and I understand he's the starter. I really hope he is the guy that his fan club says he is because if so, it's a win for everyone. If he's not, oh well I only have to watch him in a Broncos uni for one more year!

Unless he does something that jawdropping amazing like getting Denver to the Super Bowl the chance of him being able get long term contract here slim imho.

[topscribe]

Believe me when I say Top gets paid commission for sales. When he could have been making money he did a lot of film study and research on Orton. So if any one is the resident BRONCO fan expert on the guy.

Top is older than dirt and perhaps one of 5-6 fans on here from day one SEP 1960 to be a fan back then.

He has a commitment to the donkey that few others have.

That said was an original memember of this forum and mod for the first two plus years putting in more hours on here than even myslef and Tned. Many time I'd go to bed at 2am and he was stiil on duty and would get back on at 9-10a and he was already moderating.

If he said it it was true.
He also gets CRANKY when called a liar.
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And sometimes I just . . . get cranky . . . :suspicious:

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