PDA

View Full Version : Orton lets his performance do his talking



Lonestar
06-14-2010, 02:02 PM
Broncos' Orton lets his performance do his talking
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
POSTED: 06/14/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT


Unflappable Kyle Orton, above, will have his hands full at training camp, where Brady Quinn and Tim Tebow figure to challenge him for the Broncos' starting QB position. (John Leyba, The Denver Post )
Unnoticed by the local latte sippers, not discussed from the area bar stools, is what Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton hasn't done.

Orton hasn't pulled a Jay Cutler.

Similar situation, only worse. Orton entered this offseason hoping to stuff a long-term contract into his back pocket. Instead, he got Brady Quinn and Tim Tebow rammed down his throat.

Cutler only got an after-the-fact threat of Matt Cassel last year and demanded out.

Orton received a far more apparent message of no confidence, yet didn't go public with his complaints. He didn't question whether coach Josh McDaniels had his back. He didn't demand a trade. He didn't even skip a voluntary offseason practice, as so many other restricted free agents did across the NFL.
Did Orton have to give himself a pep talk, remind himself to carry on despite all the offseason trans-actions that flowed away from his long-term future in Denver?

"Well, yeah, sure, every player wants security," Orton said. "But that's going to take care of itself. Through the play, I'll let that speak for itself."

Orton exudes confidence, but there is a quiet, low-key, even blase element to his personality that served him well during the Broncos' offseason workouts this spring. While Quinn and Tebow brought an All-America-type celebrity to team headquarters, Orton effectively went about his business without uttering a controversial word.

"He's the starter, no doubt," McDaniels said this past weekend in his final offseason statement about the Broncos' quarterback competition.

Orton is the starter in June and with practice adjourned until training camp, he'll be the starter in July and August too. Quinn and Tebow aren't going to stop trying to unseat Orton between now and the Sept. 12 regular-season opener at Jacksonville, but even they agree with McDaniels' assessment that the incumbent is ahead.

"Yeah, that's the way the reps have gone," Quinn said. "And Kyle has done a good job out here. He's been in the system a year. And you look back at last year, he had a good season. So I think it's fair to give him that."

Salary takes a big hit

Orton's performance in 2009 seemed to leave the Broncos both appreciative and wondering if they can do better. He threw for 3,802 yards and 21 touchdowns, but the team finished 8-8 and he wound up ranked 14th among NFL passers.

With his contract expired after his fifth NFL season, third as a starter, Orton expected to receive a new, multiyear deal through the leverage of un-restricted free agency. Instead, the NFL canceled out enough of its collective bargaining agreement so that Orton fell into restricted free agency.

The result was a one-year, $2.512 million deal that makes him one of the NFL's lowest-paid established starting quarterbacks.

That was the first blow. Then Orton watched the Broncos invest in others. Quinn had been a starter with the Cleveland Browns, if with limited success, and has a mere one degree of separation from McDaniels through Charlie Weis. McDaniels' offensive mentor in New England was Weis, who later became Quinn's coach at Notre Dame.

Next came the first-round selection of Tebow, the highly decorated quarterback from Florida and arguably the most popular player coming out of college since Alabama's Joe Namath signed with the AFL's New York Jets in 1965. (John Elway went through villainous circumstances in 1983 when he jilted the Baltimore Colts and forced a trade to the Broncos.)

As Orton is well aware, Tebow was drafted in the first round with the intent of becoming the Broncos' franchise quarterback. Orton also knows intentions have a way of changing in the NFL.

So Orton went about his job with the expectation of keeping it. Orton is comfortable enough in his own skin, confident enough in his own play, to not become the petty, embittered veteran who freezes out the immensely hyped rookie.

"Not at all," Tebow said. "He hasn't been deterred by anything that's happened. He's done a great job. We have a great relationship. So does Brady. It's all been good."

Awkward substitution

It's possible for a quarterback to play on a one-year contract and still feel secure. Orton will have a chance to prove it by deferring to the kid, who will have a richer, five-year contract by the time he reports to training camp.

The assumption is McDan-iels will devise short-yardage, goal-line or red-zone plays for Tebow, a superb, double-option threat of run and pass.

Coming out of games for a couple of plays or five can be awkward for the established starter. In Philadelphia last year, Donovan McNabb said his rhythm was crimped when Michael Vick came in for "wildcat" plays.

Orton, whose strength is making quick, intelligent decisions, and throwing accurately short, is among the league's most efficient throwers in the red zone with 39 touchdown passes against just three interceptions.

Will Orton balk at getting subbed out of the game at key moments for the Tebow package?

"If that's going to help us win games — I know we struggled a little bit on third-down situations in the red zone last year — and if it's that type of plays that can help us win, I'm all for it," Orton said.

Maybe, if he weren't so unflappable, Orton would be easier to replace.

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com

Reliable in the red zone

Broncos rookie quarterback Tim Tebow may run the occasional red-zone package, but it's not like starter Kyle Orton doesn't know how to play there. The NFL's best TD-interception, red-zone ratios among active QBs:

Quarterback TD Int. Ratio
Philip Rivers 68 2 34-1
Tom Brady 151 7 21.6-1
Chad Pennington 69 4 17.3-1
Donovan McNabb 141 10 14.1-1
Kyle Orton 39 3 13-1

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_15291513

TXBRONC
06-14-2010, 02:15 PM
Nothing really anything new. Orton was expected to go into camp as the starter.

claymore
06-14-2010, 02:22 PM
Orton received a far more apparent message of no confidence, yet didn't go public with his complaints. He didn't question whether coach Josh McDaniels had his back. He didn't demand a trade. He didn't even skip a voluntary offseason practice, as so many other restricted free agents did across the NFL.

Orton didnt complain because he knows if he is a backup on any other team in the NFL. No team wants Orton as their #1 guy long term.

topscribe
06-14-2010, 03:57 PM
Orton didnt complain because he knows if he is a backup on any other team in the NFL. No team wants Orton as their #1 guy long term.

Is that how Kyle explained it to you, Clay?

-----

claymore
06-14-2010, 04:03 PM
Is that how Kyle explained it to you, Clay?

-----

Yes. He friended me on Face book the other day. :D

topscribe
06-14-2010, 04:10 PM
Yes. He friended me on Face book the other day. :D

And to think I actually liked the guy . . . :tsk:

-----

claymore
06-14-2010, 04:11 PM
And to think I actually liked the guy . . . :tsk:

-----

His email is Glassankles@AOL.com You can corespond with him there.

Northman
06-14-2010, 04:11 PM
Orton is a good guy so i have no complaints about him in that respect. He says all the right things like a professional should do. But, in the end like everything else its about winning and if he cant get this team into the playoffs than we have to look elsewhere hence why the lack of contract.

Northman
06-14-2010, 04:11 PM
His email is Glassankles@AOL.com You can corespond with him there.

:lol::lol::lol:

Damn dude. That shit was funny.

topscribe
06-14-2010, 04:12 PM
Orton is a good guy so i have no complaints about him in that respect. He says all the right things like a professional should do. But, in the end like everything else its about winning and if he cant get this team into the playoffs than we have to look elsewhere hence why the lack of contract.

Makes sense. Now, let's see if he can get his team into the playoffs . . .

-----

Northman
06-14-2010, 04:13 PM
Makes sense. Now, let's see if he can get his team into the playoffs . . .

-----

He will definitely have the opportunity like last year.

topscribe
06-14-2010, 04:15 PM
He will definitely have the opportunity like last year.

That's what he needs. I'm glad, for instance, that the Broncos kept Elway after
he failed to get the Broncos into the playoffs . . .

-----

TXBRONC
06-14-2010, 04:19 PM
That's what he needs. I'm glad, for instance, that the Broncos kept Elway after
he failed to get the Broncos into the playoffs . . .

-----

Elway's team made the playoffs in both his first and second year.

topscribe
06-14-2010, 04:22 PM
Elway's team made the playoffs in both his first and second year.

So what happened in 1985, 1988, 1990, 1992, and 1994?

-----

Northman
06-14-2010, 05:29 PM
That's what he needs. I'm glad, for instance, that the Broncos kept Elway after
he failed to get the Broncos into the playoffs . . .

-----


2 different QB's mate. Not even in the same league.

BroncoWave
06-14-2010, 05:34 PM
So what happened in 1985, 1988, 1990, 1992, and 1994?

-----

Elway's and Orton's situations have absolutely nothing in common.

NittanyBuff24
06-14-2010, 06:18 PM
Orton didnt complain because he knows if he is a backup on any other team in the NFL. No team wants Orton as their #1 guy long term.

Couldnt have said it better myself!! If there is a God in heaven, not another year of KO at the helm!

TXBRONC
06-14-2010, 09:53 PM
Elway's and Orton's situations have absolutely nothing in common.

You got that right. :salute:

TXBRONC
06-14-2010, 09:55 PM
Couldnt have said it better myself!! If there is a God in heaven, not another year of KO at the helm!

But sometimes we have a cross to bare. :D

topscribe
06-14-2010, 10:27 PM
2 different QB's mate. Not even in the same league.

So you consider that as an argument that Orton has had his chance and could
not get the Broncos into the playoffs? You even augmented my point: Not even
the great John Elway could get his team into the playoffs several different
times.

But there is something else you overlooked: Orton did get his team into the
playoffs as a rookie quarterback. He did not play in the postseason, as a
"coach's decision," but he did get them there. So you cannot say he is not
capable of getting a team into the playoffs.

-----

TXBRONC
06-14-2010, 10:52 PM
So you consider that as an argument that Orton has had his chance and could
not get the Broncos into the playoffs? You even augmented my point: Not even
the great John Elway could get his team into the playoffs several different
times.

But there is something else you overlooked: Orton did get his team into the
playoffs as a rookie quarterback. He did not play in the postseason, as a
"coach's decision," but he did get them there. So you cannot say he is not
capable of getting a team into the playoffs.

-----

Not really. Chicago's defense did the most of the work. In 15 starts he couldn't even get 2000 yards passing. He also had three games where he threw for under a 100 yards. And finally for the year he threw 9 touchdown passes.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=chi&year=2005

http://espn.go.com/nfl/teams/schedule?team=chi&year=2005

topscribe
06-14-2010, 11:00 PM
Not really. Chicago's defense did the most of the work. In 15 starts he couldn't even get 2000 yards passing. He also had three games where he threw for under a 100 yards. And finally for the year he threw 9 touchdown passes.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=chi&year=2005

http://espn.go.com/nfl/teams/schedule?team=chi&year=2005

Oh, so when Orton quarterbacked the Bears to the playoffs, the defense is
who did it. But when the Broncos defense collapsed last season, it was Orton
who failed to take the Broncos to the playoffs.

I knew you would come back with that. I'm glad you did. :lol:

P.S. It was 1983. Elway's first year. 11 games. 1,663 yards passing. 3 games
where he threw for under 100 yds. 14 TDs, 28 INTs. 54.9 QBR.

Rookies have a rough time in the NFL, don't they? :coffee:

-----

UnderArmour
06-14-2010, 11:49 PM
Orton didnt complain because he knows if he is a backup on any other team in the NFL. No team wants Orton as their #1 guy long term.

Orton didn't complain because he will break every passing record set by Brett Favre(except interceptions) and Peyton Manning this season and win the Super Bowl setting all sorts of records and the Broncos will have to pay him more than Tom Brady and Peyton Manning combined, clearly.

dogfish
06-15-2010, 12:01 AM
That's what he needs. I'm glad, for instance, that the Broncos kept Elway after
he failed to get the Broncos into the playoffs . . .

-----

did that just happen?



:huh:

BroncoWave
06-15-2010, 12:09 AM
Oh, so when Orton quarterbacked the Bears to the playoffs, the defense is
who did it. But when the Broncos defense collapsed last season, it was Orton
who failed to take the Broncos to the playoffs.

I knew you would come back with that. I'm glad you did. :lol:

P.S. It was 1983. Elway's first year. 11 games. 1,663 yards passing. 3 games
where he threw for under 100 yds. 14 TDs, 28 INTs. 54.9 QBR.

Rookies have a rough time in the NFL, don't they? :coffee:

-----

Are you seriously comparing John Elway to Kyle Orton? I know you will defend Orton at all costs, but seriously? It's a disrespect to John Elway to put those 2 guys in the same sentence.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 12:33 AM
Are you seriously comparing John Elway to Kyle Orton? I know you will defend Orton at all costs, but seriously? It's a disrespect to John Elway to put those 2 guys in the same sentence.

Went right over your head, didn't it? http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/wink-2.gif


Before you tell me about "respect," tell me you remember Elway's first game
as a pro. Tell me you saw the first game the Broncos ever played. Tell me
about Frank Tripucka, Charley Johnson, Craig Morton.

Please, don't you come back and tell me about respect . . .

-----

TXBRONC
06-15-2010, 12:34 AM
Oh, so when Orton quarterbacked the Bears to the playoffs, the defense is
who did it. But when the Broncos defense collapsed last season, it was Orton
who failed to take the Broncos to the playoffs.

I knew you would come back with that. I'm glad you did. :lol:

P.S. It was 1983. Elway's first year. 11 games. 1,663 yards passing. 3 games
where he threw for under 100 yds. 14 TDs, 28 INTs. 54.9 QBR.

Rookies have a rough time in the NFL, don't they? :coffee:

-----

It's amazing what kind pretzel you'll twist yourself into just to try and pump up Orton into something that he's not.

1. Orton had 15 starts in his rookie year. John had 10 starts. (Btw why did you doubled John's touchdowns and interceptions from '83 why? He had 7 tds and 14 ints.)

2. If you had actually paid attention to what I wrote you would have noticed I said that defense did most of the work believe it or not s that is the same thing as saying they (the Chicago defense) didn't do all the work.

3. With 5 more Elway conceivably could have bettered numbers right? Yet even with 5 less starts he still put up nearly same stats as Orton. He also got better as season wore on. Did Orton in his rookie get better as the season wore on? Nope he stayed about the same. Orton also had strong running game to rely on did Elway?

4. While most rookie quarterbacks struggle if they start right away it is also true some get better as the seaon goes on others stay the same. :coffee:

:salute:

topscribe
06-15-2010, 12:35 AM
It's amazing what kind pretzel you'll twist yourself into just to try and pump up Orton into something that he's not.


Why don't you try, for once, to be honest in your posts?

That would be refreshing, but I won't hold my breath . . .

-----

TXBRONC
06-15-2010, 12:36 AM
Are you seriously comparing John Elway to Kyle Orton? I know you will defend Orton at all costs, but seriously? It's a disrespect to John Elway to put those 2 guys in the same sentence.

Yeah it's like saying a VW Bug is as fast as a Lamborghini. :rofl:

TXBRONC
06-15-2010, 12:42 AM
Why don't you try, for once, to be honest in your posts?

That would be refreshing, but I won't hold my breath . . .

-----

Why don't you do the same in your posts. I'm glad you're not going to hold your breath because chances are you'll live longer. :coffee:

Ok that's enough of this game. Go on have the last word, it wont make you into expert of all things football, but have at it bud. :beer:

BigBroncLove
06-15-2010, 12:48 AM
I know I have a lot of questions about Ortons level of play. Certain areas of his play were very difficult to watch last year. I don't want to belabor my past listing of these issues but his progressions, check downs, field awareness, pocket presence, and lack of attacking the deep ball were all issues last year.

That said I don't think I'm prepared to cast complete judgment on his level of play without seeing it first hand this year. I honestly think we may have gotten as much out of Orton that can be squeezed out of him last year. However he may well surprise everyone and I want to see if the two years in the system really is that big of a difference as the night and day he and McD have made reference to about his comfort and efficiency in the offense so far in mini camps (which isn't a great test IMO either). Stranger things have happened and lesser QB's have matured into real forces in the league who were older then Orton. Honestly though, Quinn and a rookie Tebow don't inspire confidence in me as replacements behind center.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 01:08 AM
I know I have a lot of questions about Ortons level of play. Certain areas of his play were very difficult to watch last year. I don't want to belabor my past listing of these issues but his progressions, check downs, field awareness, pocket presence, and lack of attacking the deep ball were all issues last year.

That said I don't think I'm prepared to cast complete judgment on his level of play without seeing it first hand this year. I honestly think we may have gotten as much out of Orton that can be squeezed out of him last year. However he may well surprise everyone and I want to see if the two years in the system really is that big of a difference as the night and day he and McD have made reference to about his comfort and efficiency in the offense so far in mini camps (which isn't a great test IMO either). Stranger things have happened and lesser QB's have matured into real forces in the league who were older then Orton. Honestly though, Quinn and a rookie Tebow don't inspire confidence in me as replacements behind center.

Well, yes, BBL . . . two years in the system. And . . .

Familiarity with receivers.
Receivers familiar with each other.
Familiarity with the O-line.
The O-line familiar with each other.

. . . And healthy.

Last year, Orton had four games with a 100+ QB rating and six at 90+ (and
another at 89). And that is with all these challenges. ^^^

Now, I can't, for the life of me, figure out how he would not be better this
year than he was last year. All these listed problems will have been solved,
and it looks as if the running game and defense may be improved.

I'm not making any predictions. I only would like to give him a fair chance
before I start relegating him to the bench, as several here have tried to do.
I'll make my judgment as to how good he is this next year. I haven't seen him
in "normal" circumstances yet. That's all I'm saying . . .

-----

Northman
06-15-2010, 01:12 AM
So you consider that as an argument that Orton has had his chance and could
not get the Broncos into the playoffs? You even augmented my point: Not even
the great John Elway could get his team into the playoffs several different
times.

But there is something else you overlooked: Orton did get his team into the
playoffs as a rookie quarterback. He did not play in the postseason, as a
"coach's decision," but he did get them there. So you cannot say he is not
capable of getting a team into the playoffs.

-----


If that is what you got out of if and what you still hold onto as far as Orton's capabilities than i dont know what to tell you dude. My point was he needs to get DENVER into the playoffs. Not Chicago. And then, even when he did get Chicago into the playoffs he couldnt hold onto the job unlike Elway. Lets also look at WHEN he got chicago to the playoffs and that was on the back of a very good defense that year. Elway never really had that until later on. So who really is worth the price of admission? A QB who can carry a team to a SB or a QB who can guide a very good defensive team to one? I find it hysterical that you would even attempt to measure the two equally. Sorry, when it comes to this particular debate on whether Orton is the type of the QB who can do special things your just flat out of your mind.

Northman
06-15-2010, 01:14 AM
Oh, so when Orton quarterbacked the Bears to the playoffs, the defense is
who did it. But when the Broncos defense collapsed last season, it was Orton
who failed to take the Broncos to the playoffs.

I knew you would come back with that. I'm glad you did. :lol:

P.S. It was 1983. Elway's first year. 11 games. 1,663 yards passing. 3 games
where he threw for under 100 yds. 14 TDs, 28 INTs. 54.9 QBR.

Rookies have a rough time in the NFL, don't they? :coffee:

-----


Orton wasnt a rookie last year if that is what you were implying. And no one said he was the downfall to last year only that when the defense did fail he couldnt carry them or even make them competitive.

Northman
06-15-2010, 01:15 AM
did that just happen?



:huh:

Dont ask. :lol:

BigBroncLove
06-15-2010, 01:16 AM
Well, yes, BBL . . . two years in the system. And . . .

Familiarity with receivers.
Receivers familiar with each other.
Familiarity with the O-line.
The O-line familiar with each other.

. . . And healthy.

Last year, Orton had four games with a 100+ QB rating and six at 90+ (and
another at 89). And that is with all these challenges. ^^^

Now, I can't, for the life of me, figure out how he would not be better this
year than he was last year. All these listed problems will have been solved,
and it looks as if the running game and defense may be improved.

I'm not making any predictions. I only would like to give him a fair chance
before I start relegating him to the bench, as several here have tried to do.
I'll make my judgment as to how good he is this next year. I haven't seen him
in "normal" circumstances yet. That's all I'm saying . . .

-----

We've talked about all these things but, I'll say the injury thing isn't, hasn't been, and likely won't be as big an issue for me regarding his play as you. He was injured in both ankle and hand but there were more then a few games in which both played a much reduced role. Games in which Orton did not play above and beyond the games he was injured.

As for the the other things your talking about, they won't play nearly as big a role now then they would have at the end of the 09 season. That's because...

The Center and left guard positions will be different players and the Oline will have its own issues in finding a comfort level with one another. Besides the blind side tackle which is another issue currently, the Center is arguably the most important piece of the puzzle, he calls out the adjustments in block assignments and we'll likely be porting in a rookie. Hopefully they'll let Kuper do that till Walton finds his stride. They can get comfortable with one another, a lot depends on it actually, but its not a sure bet and I'm not about to count that as a growing strength. Clady may well be out for few games if not more and that could be a massive blow to this offense.

Receivers.... not so much again. Stokley didn't play most of last year due to injury or being out played by other players. Marshall is gone. Scheffler is gone (and wasn't a huge piece of the puzzle last year). Royal and Orton never really got on teh same page last year outside of one or two games. Graham is more of blocker and will likely be used in that fashion. Besides Gaffney and perhaps to a degree Royal, that comfort level isn't there yet. We'll also be trying to port Decker and Thomas in there for good reason. So again familiarity with one another and Ortons familiarity with them is not a strength at this point.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 01:16 AM
If that is what you got out of if and what you still hold onto as far as Orton's capabilities than i dont know what to tell you dude. My point was he needs to get DENVER into the playoffs. Not Chicago. And then, even when he did get Chicago into the playoffs he couldnt hold onto the job unlike Elway. Lets also look at WHEN he got chicago to the playoffs and that was on the back of a very good defense that year. Elway never really had that until later on. So who really is worth the price of admission? A QB who can carry a team to a SB or a QB who can guide a very good defensive team to one? I find it hysterical that you would even attempt to measure the two equally. Sorry, when it comes to this particular debate on whether Orton is the type of the QB who can do special things your just flat out of your mind.

Wow, nobody got my point. It's like I'm trying to teach algebra to a day care class.

Do your best to read my post just previous to yours.

Just wow . . .

-----

Northman
06-15-2010, 01:20 AM
Wow, nobody got my point. It's like I'm trying to teach algebra to a day care class.

Do your best to read my post just previous to yours.

Just wow . . .

-----

No need to be insulting Top, you know better. Fact is, you brought up Elway as your example which is nothing NEAR what was being discussed. This is like JR always bringing up Shanahan in every discussion because he wants to spend a lot of time deflecting from the discussion at hand. Maybe, just maybe if you had read my post correctly you wouldnt of gone off tangent. :coffee:

BigBroncLove
06-15-2010, 01:20 AM
Wow, nobody got my point. It's like I'm trying to teach algebra to a day care class.

Do your best to read my post just previous to yours.

Just wow . . .

-----

Play nice....

A lot of us debate with civility. I think, even in the face of the alternative, you never make your point by insult.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 01:29 AM
We've talked about all these things but, I'll say the injury thing isn't, hasn't been, and likely won't be as big an issue for me regarding his play as you. He was injured in both ankle and hand but there were more then a few games in which both played a much reduced role. Games in which Orton did not play above and beyond the games he was injured.
.

That's right, and that is what makes me optimistic. Because during those games
Orton did not have the high ankle sprain, he threw for 11 TDs and 4 INTs and
2,031 yards in 8½ games, and his W-L was 6-2 through 8 games. In four of
those games, his QBR was 100+, and two others were 90+. And that was with
that split open finger the first two or three games or so.

I saw the same thing in 2008. He was receiving compliments from all over for
his play until he incurred that high ankle sprain.

So when Orton's injuries played a reduced role, he excelled, didn't he? That's
why I said, or at least implied, I want to see him play a season healthy and in
more "normal" circumstances.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 01:32 AM
No need to be insulting Top, you know better. Fact is, you brought up Elway as your example which is nothing NEAR what was being discussed. This is like JR always bringing up Shanahan in every discussion because he wants to spend a lot of time deflecting from the discussion at hand. Maybe, just maybe if you had read my post correctly you wouldnt of gone off tangent. :coffee:

No, if you had read my post correctly and gotten the point, then it would never
have happened. I made a point, but I apparently insulted your god. Had you
applied a trace of cognitive power, you would have seen what I was getting
at.

Shanahan has nothing to do with this discussion. Neither does JR. See how
silly that is?

-----

topscribe
06-15-2010, 01:34 AM
Play nice....

A lot of us debate with civility. I think, even in the face of the alternative, you never make your point by insult.

Oh, I never intended to insult.

I meant it . . . :coffee:

-----

Northman
06-15-2010, 01:35 AM
No, if you had read my post correctly and gotten the point, then it would never
have happened. I made a point, but I apparently insulted your god. Had you
applied a trace of cognitive power, you would have seen what I was getting
at.

Shanahan has nothing to do with this discussion. Neither does JR. See how
silly that is?

-----


Good grief. I cant even debate with you anymore without the silly childish antics. Welcome to ignore.

BigBroncLove
06-15-2010, 01:38 AM
That's right, and that is what makes me optimistic. Because during those games
Orton did not have the high ankle sprain, he threw for 11 TDs and 4 INTs and
2,031 yards in 8½ games, and his W-L was 6-2 through 8 games. In four of
those games, his QBR was 100+, and two others were 90+. And that was with
that split open finger the first two or three games or so.

I saw the same thing in 2008. He was receiving compliments from all over for
his play until he incurred that high ankle sprain.

So when Orton's injuries played a reduced role, he excelled, didn't he? That's
why I said, or at least implied, I want to see him play a season healthy and in
more "normal" circumstances.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. Passer ratings are one of the worst ways to gauge a QB IMO. Based upon completion percentage largely in which a massive portion of the Broncos offense was pieced together by bubble screens, three step slants, and other short passing throws that are easy to create a completion and hard to make something out of. I know your opinion on QB rating and you defend it rather vehemently, so again, agree to disagree.

The only three games in which Orton I felt operated at a high level were Dallas, NE, and the Giants last year. The rest, if watched in full, had a great many three and outs, a stat very hard to track. Was that all on Orton? No, but he shares more then his fair share of the load and i think most who watched the same games as me agree that he has a lot of room for improvement. As for the other post about insults.... wow man.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 01:40 AM
Good grief. I cant even debate with you anymore without the silly childish antics. Welcome to ignore.

If you cannot get a simple point I made without this childish "don't mention x
in the say breath as y," then I don't know what to say.

And what kind of comment is that? Since when have you and I been in a debate?

Wow, skin is thin around here. I'm putting in a call for sanity . . .

-----

topscribe
06-15-2010, 01:42 AM
We're going to have to agree to disagree. Passer ratings are one of the worst ways to gauge a QB IMO. Based upon completion percentage largely in which a massive portion of the Broncos offense was pieced together by bubble screens, three step slants, and other short passing throws that are easy to create a completion and hard to make something out of. I know your opinion on QB rating and you defend it rather vehemently, so again, agree to disagree.

The only three games in which Orton I felt operated at a high level were Dallas, NE, and the Giants last year. The rest, if watched in full, had a great many three and outs, a stat very hard to track. Was that all on Orton? No, but he shares more then his fair share of the load and i think most who watched the same games as me agree that he has a lot of room for improvement. As for the other post about insults.... wow man.

Wow, you disagree that Orton did better when he was not injured?

It is amazing you people feel that I am unreasonable because I just want to wait and see.

Rational is irrational around here.

This is incredible . . .

-----

Northman
06-15-2010, 01:44 AM
Wow, you disagree that Orton did better when he was not injured?

It is amazing you people feel that I am unreasonable because I just want to wait and see.

Rational is irrational around here.

This is incredible . . .

-----

My first post in which you had a ******* heart attack about.

If this isnt rational i dont know what is.


Orton is a good guy so i have no complaints about him in that respect. He says all the right things like a professional should do. But, in the end like everything else its about winning and if he cant get this team into the playoffs than we have to look elsewhere hence why the lack of contract.

BigBroncLove
06-15-2010, 01:46 AM
Wow, you disagree that Orton did better when he was not injured?

It is amazing you people feel that I am unreasonable because I just want to wait and see.

Rational is irrational around here.

This is incredible . . .

-----

I didn't say that he played better. I said it will never be as big an issue for me as it is for you simply because even when healthy (lets say KC game at the end of the year when both injuries played very little part) Orton.... was terrible. While were putting words in my mouth though, you could add something about Hitler or fascism to really drive home the point.

Honestly man, why are so combative right now? We've disagreed in the past. I don't think were that far off honestly on our opinions of Orton besides the value of his injury and how it effected his play. I said I wasn't about to cast him into the doghouse as so many are. That I want, like the article said, to let Ortons play speak for itself. In the past though we've both maintained a very healthy level of respect and civility. Something, I feel quite honestly, you lack at the moment.

Northman
06-15-2010, 01:51 AM
I didn't say that he played better. I said it will never be as big an issue for me as it is for you simply because even when healthy (lets say KC game at the end of the year when both injuries played very little part) Orton.... was terrible. While were putting words in my mouth though, you could add something about Hitler or fascism to really drive home the point.

Honestly man, why are so combative right now? We've disagreed in the past. I don't think were that far off honestly on our opinions of Orton besides the value of his injury and how it effected his play. I said I wasn't about to cast him into the doghouse as so many are. That I want, like the article said, to let Ortons play speak for itself. In the past though we've both maintained a very healthy level of respect and civility. Something, I feel quite honestly, you lack at the moment.


Because some individuals have a hard time dealing with reality.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 01:51 AM
My first post in which you had a ******* heart attack about.

If this isnt rational i dont know what is.

I had a heart attack? You do over-react, don't you?

It seems to me I simply rebutted your statement by pointing out that even the
greatest of QBs sometimes can't get a team into the playoffs. The implication
was that more goes into it than just the QB, and, had you paid attention to the
"defense," you would have mentioned that as a factor.

I also pointed out that Orton did quarterback a team to the playoffs. But then,
it was pointed out that the defense, not Orton, got them there, but last year
Orton, not the defense, fell short.

That is a heart attack? :confused: That is what I call disagreement. Is it
because you think I insulted Elway? Is he that much of an idol?

-----

topscribe
06-15-2010, 01:55 AM
I didn't say that he played better. I said it will never be as big an issue for me as it is for you simply because even when healthy (lets say KC game at the end of the year when both injuries played very little part) Orton.... was terrible. While were putting words in my mouth though, you could add something about Hitler or fascism to really drive home the point.

Honestly man, why are so combative right now? We've disagreed in the past. I don't think were that far off honestly on our opinions of Orton besides the value of his injury and how it effected his play. I said I wasn't about to cast him into the doghouse as so many are. That I want, like the article said, to let Ortons play speak for itself. In the past though we've both maintained a very healthy level of respect and civility. Something, I feel quite honestly, you lack at the moment.

Yes, I do get rather impatient when people can't seem to think.
I made a point, and all a certain TX, BTB, and North could see was that I
insulted a Broncos god, rather than what I just tried to explain in my
immediately previous post.

But I had no issue with you. So maybe you ought to have stayed out of it.

-----

Northman
06-15-2010, 02:06 AM
It seems to me I simply rebutted your statement by pointing out that even the greatest of QBs sometimes can't get a team into the playoffs. The implication was that more goes into it than just the QB, and, had you paid attention to the "defense," you would have mentioned that as a factor.

Why would i mention the defense as a factor when the thread at hand had to do with Kyle Orton the QB? We are talking about his ability and his ability only.


I also pointed out that Orton did quarterback a team to the playoffs. But then, it was pointed out that the defense, not Orton, got them there, but last year Orton, not the defense, fell short.

You pointed out something that had nothing to do with my comment. My comment was about the Broncos, not the Bears. But when you brought it up it was indeed pointed out that the Bears defense was a big part of his success that year which is entirely true. Its also true that on our 6-0 run last year the defense was playing its best and keeping the offense in the game. Did Orton make some nice plays during that stretch? Sure. But when the defense started to fall apart Orton could not step up and carry more of the load. This is also fact.


Is it because you think I insulted Elway? Is he that much of an idol?

-----

You did insult Elway. You tried using examples of a QB who was a longtime starter who missed some playoffs in his long 16 year career to justify a journeyman QB who was unable to pick up the slack and get us into the playoffs after a 6-0 start. It sounds like you are the one who is getting upset about people calling Orton average. Its been your MO for the last few months. You simply cannot come to terms with the fact that Orton is not a type of QB who can pick up a team and carry them on his back when needed. If Chicago felt that Orton was that kind of player they would of kept him and not worried about trading for Jay.

If McDaniels thought that Orton was that type of QB he would of signed him to a longer contract and not worried about drafting a QB in the first round. Again, these are all realities that you just cant seem to come to terms with. As for John being my idol hell yea he is my idol. He was a heck of a football player that did more in his career than Orton ever has in his. If you want to compare someone to Orton you might want to go with Trent Dilfer since they both have more in common as game managers.

dogfish
06-15-2010, 02:12 AM
Wow, nobody got my point. It's like I'm trying to teach algebra to a day care class.

Do your best to read my post just previous to yours.

Just wow . . .

-----

are you going to continue to be this grouchy once orton doesn't play here anymore?

:huh:


on topic. . . i think you're wasting your time talking about "normal circumstances"-- i'm fairly sure such a condition doesn't exist in the NFL. . .

it's upheaval, every year. . . and let's face it-- orton's had more than a bit of a propensity to gather a number of nagging injuries during the course of a season, dating back to a number of incidents in college. . . bottom line, lots if not most players in the NFL play through things at one point or another during the season-- and at this point, playing with a sprained ankle more or less IS normal circumstances for orton. . . matt schaub is a guy who was in the same boat, and a time comes when the guy has to either go out and prove that he can play 16 games and stay healthy, or show that he can play through it and still play at a high level. . . or, at some point the team will either move him or spend a high pick on a QB to potentially replace him. . . some version of that has happened to kyle each of the past two years. . .

change is a way of life in this league. . . every year players come and go. . . guys retire, get cut or traded, allowed to leave in free agency, etc. . . and other guys are brought in. . . players may switch positions. . . unsuccessful coaches get fired, successful coaches get promoted, and the new guys bring in different systems. . . in terms of the latter, QBs who win can control it to some extent, because the head coaches of winning teams don't get fired that frequently-- and their system typically stays the same, even if a coordinator or position coach goes elsewhere. . .

if you're waiting for stable circumstances to judge orton you may never get the chance. . . no one knows who's going to start the season at left tackle-- our projected starting ORT is a guy orton didn't play all that much with last year. . . OLG is undetermined, but regardless it's going to be a new face that neither orton nor either of the linemen next to him played with last year, and same for the center position. . .

orton's favorite target is gone-- at TE as well as WR. . . his projected starting receivers include a guy that he couldn't connect with all year, and another who is a career #3/#4 type of guy. . . stokley is a limited contributor, the next two prospective guys on the WR depth chart are rookies, and the prospective #2 TE was a complete non-factor in the passing game last year, and you would assume probably didn't even practice with orton and the ones all that much last year. . .

so if you're looking for continuity or stability, there's really not that much of it to be found for kyle. . . his second year in the system and the chance to start training camp atop the depth chart. . . that's what JMFMCD is going to give him, and i'd say it's about fair according to the standards of the league. . . orton's got a fair chance to earn one more year as the starter here, and beyond that-- most likely a chance to showcase himself for a shot at competing for a starting gig somewhere else, unless he literally forces our hand by leading a super bowl run or something. . .

IMO, that's no bad deal for him. . . but most assuredly, the FO and coaching staff aren't likely to make too many exceptions for circumstances. . . this is a "prove it" league, and no one wants to hear excuses. . . mcD said it on camera to kyle last year; "it's not about 'my bad' anymore, just make the play". . .

if clady isn't ready to start week one, orton's going to be expected to perform anyway. . . if demaryius thomas proves unready to contribute, kyle's not going to get a mullligan for poor play. . . sometimes individual players do get a little bit of the short end of the stick, but that's the nature of the business, and most of the time the real cream is going to find a way to rise to the top. . .

topscribe
06-15-2010, 02:15 AM
Why would i mention the defense as a factor when the thread at hand had to do with Kyle Orton the QB? We are talking about his ability and his ability only.



You pointed out something that had nothing to do with my comment. My comment was about the Broncos, not the Bears. But when you brought it up it was indeed pointed out that the Bears defense was a big part of his success that year which is entirely true. Its also true that on our 6-0 run last year the defense was playing its best and keeping the offense in the game. Did Orton make some nice plays during that stretch? Sure. But when the defense started to fall apart Orton could not step up and carry more of the load. This is also fact.



You did insult Elway. You tried using examples of a QB who was a longtime starter who missed some playoffs in his long 16 year career to justify a journeyman QB who was unable to pick up the slack and get us into the playoffs after a 6-0 start. It sounds like you are the one who is getting upset about people calling Orton average. Its been your MO for the last few months. You simply cannot come to terms with the fact that Orton is not a type of QB who can pick up a team and carry them on his back when needed. If Chicago felt that Orton was that kind of player they would of kept him and not worried about trading for Jay.

If McDaniels thought that Orton was that type of QB he would of signed him to a longer contract and not worried about drafting a QB in the first round. Again, these are all realities that you just cant seem to come to terms with. As for John being my idol hell yea he is my idol. He was a heck of a football player that did more in his career than Orton ever has in his. If you want to compare someone to Orton you might want to go with Trent Dilfer since they both have more in common as game managers.

Which shows that all along you seem to have had reading problems with my
posts, just as you do not understand this last point I made, even after I tried
to explain it.

My M.O. all along was to give the guy a chance. Not one single time did I ever
attribute stardom to Orton. I only pointed out, time and again, in answer to
lie after lie, the truth about him because I knew more about Orton than
anyone else did, because I put in many (too many) hours studying him. But
I never did make any claims, other than I thought he could be a good QB, in
my own opinion, always with a "wait and see" qualification. So if you think I
made him out to be any more than that, I suggest you try to read out of my
posts, rather than into them.

Regarding Elway, I watched him as an adult all 16 years of his professional
career and all four of his college years. I admired him greatly and still do. He
was a great player, one of the G.O.A.T. But I do not idolize him. He is a man
who was good at playing a game. I already have a God.

-----

BigBroncLove
06-15-2010, 02:16 AM
Yes, I do get rather impatient when people can't seem to think.
I made a point, and all a certain TX, BTB, and North could see was that I
insulted a Broncos god, rather than what I just tried to explain in my
immediately previous post.

But I had no issue with you. So maybe you ought to have stayed out of it.

-----

Maybe the answer isn't lashing out at people you apparently had no issue with. I've said it before, I'll call out an insulting post for what it is. That said man, I understand the point your trying to make but the way you are making it is IMO decidedly ineffective. Great for venting sure, and pretty damn funny to read for those of us without a real investment in the convo, but not really conducive to achieving your desired effect as far as I'm concerned.

Also your biggest issue with me wasn't getting in that end of the conversation, but about Orton, what this thread is about. I come here to talk football and was trying to do exactly that. Its more than okay to disagree with people, but theres a difference between debating and being insulting.

Well with that I'm off to bed, but man, I'll say this.... It's a message board... on the internet. I don't see the payoff on this level of emotional investment for something like this.

Northman
06-15-2010, 02:17 AM
are you going to continue to be this grouchy once orton doesn't play here anymore?

:huh:


on topic. . . i think you're wasting your time talking about "normal circumstances"-- i'm fairly sure such a condition doesn't exist in the NFL. . .

it's upheaval, every year. . . and let's face it-- orton's had more than a bit of a propensity to gather a number of nagging injuries during the course of a season, dating back to a number of incidents in college. . . bottom line, lots if not most players in the NFL play through things at one point or another during the season-- and at this point, playing with a sprained ankle more or less IS normal circumstances for orton. . . matt schaub is a guy who was in the same boat, and a time comes where the guy has to either go out and prove that he can play 16 games and stay healthy, or show that he can play through it and still play at a high level. . . or, at some point the team will either move him or spend a high pick on a QB to potentially replace him. . . some version of that has happened to kyle each of the past two years. . .

change is a way of life in this league. . . every year players come and go. . . guys retire, get cut or traded, allowed to leave in free agency, etc. . . and other guys are brought in. . . players may switch positions. . . unsuccessful coaches get fired, successful coaches get promoted, and the new guys bring in different systems. . . in terms of the latter, QBs who win can control it to some extent, because the head coaches of winning teams don't get fired that frequently-- and their system typically stays the same, even if a coordinator or position coach goes elsewhere. . .

if you're waiting for stable circumstances to judge orton you may never get the chance. . . no one knows who's going to start the season at left tackle-- our projected starting ORT is a guy orton didn't play all that much with last year. . . OLG is undetermined, but regardless it's going to be a new face that neither orton nor either of the linemen next to him played with last year, and same for the center position. . .

orton's favorite target is gone-- at TE as well as WR. . . his projected starting receivers include a guy that he couldn't connect with all year, and another who is a career $3/#4 type of guy. . . stokley is a limited contributor, the next two prospective guys on the WR depth chart are rookies, and the prospective #2 TE was a complete non-factor in the passing game last year, and you would assume probably didn't even practice with orton and the ones all that much last year. . .

so if you're looking for continuity or stability, there's really not that much of it to be found for kyle. . . his second year in the system and the chance to start training camp atop the depth chart. . . that's what JMFMCD is going to give him, and i'd say it's about fair according to the standards of the league. . . he's got a fair chance to earn one more year as the starter here, and beyond that-- most likely a chance to showcase himself for a shot at competing for a starting gig somewhere else, unless he literally forces our hand by leading a super bowl run or something. . .

IMO, that's no bad deal for him. . . but most assuredly, the FO and coaching staff aren't likely to make too many exceptions for circumstances. . . this is a "prove it" league, and no one wants to hear excuses. . . mcD said it on camera to kyle last year; "it's not about 'my bad' anymore, just make the play". . .

if clady isn't ready to start week one, orton's going to be expected to perform anyway. . . if demaryius thomas proves unready to contribute, kyle's not going to get a mullligan for poor play. . . sometimes individual players do get a little bit of the short end of the stick, but that's the nature of the business, and most of the time the real cream is going to find a way to rise to the top. . .


Excellent post and on the money.

Im a big Schaub fan and i have a friend who is a Texans fans who constantly tells me how great Matt is and is one of the best QB's in the league. Sure, Matt puts up some great numbers but he is injury prone and hasnt won the games when they mattered most. Most notably, the games vs Indy. So while i really like Matt Schaub i also understand he is still a ways from being a great QB. Like Jay, he has a lot of the entangibles and talent but the mechanics and receiver progression isnt quite there yet.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 02:18 AM
are you going to continue to be this grouchy once orton doesn't play here anymore?

:huh:


on topic. . . i think you're wasting your time talking about "normal circumstances"-- i'm fairly sure such a condition doesn't exist in the NFL. . .

it's upheaval, every year. . . and let's face it-- orton's had more than a bit of a propensity to gather a number of nagging injuries during the course of a season, dating back to a number of incidents in college. . . bottom line, lots if not most players in the NFL play through things at one point or another during the season-- and at this point, playing with a sprained ankle more or less IS normal circumstances for orton. . . matt schaub is a guy who was in the same boat, and a time comes when the guy has to either go out and prove that he can play 16 games and stay healthy, or show that he can play through it and still play at a high level. . . or, at some point the team will either move him or spend a high pick on a QB to potentially replace him. . . some version of that has happened to kyle each of the past two years. . .

change is a way of life in this league. . . every year players come and go. . . guys retire, get cut or traded, allowed to leave in free agency, etc. . . and other guys are brought in. . . players may switch positions. . . unsuccessful coaches get fired, successful coaches get promoted, and the new guys bring in different systems. . . in terms of the latter, QBs who win can control it to some extent, because the head coaches of winning teams don't get fired that frequently-- and their system typically stays the same, even if a coordinator or position coach goes elsewhere. . .

if you're waiting for stable circumstances to judge orton you may never get the chance. . . no one knows who's going to start the season at left tackle-- our projected starting ORT is a guy orton didn't play all that much with last year. . . OLG is undetermined, but regardless it's going to be a new face that neither orton nor either of the linemen next to him played with last year, and same for the center position. . .

orton's favorite target is gone-- at TE as well as WR. . . his projected starting receivers include a guy that he couldn't connect with all year, and another who is a career $3/#4 type of guy. . . stokley is a limited contributor, the next two prospective guys on the WR depth chart are rookies, and the prospective #2 TE was a complete non-factor in the passing game last year, and you would assume probably didn't even practice with orton and the ones all that much last year. . .

so if you're looking for continuity or stability, there's really not that much of it to be found for kyle. . . his second year in the system and the chance to start training camp atop the depth chart. . . that's what JMFMCD is going to give him, and i'd say it's about fair according to the standards of the league. . . he's got a fair chance to earn one more year as the starter here, and beyond that-- most likely a chance to showcase himself for a shot at competing for a starting gig somewhere else, unless he literally forces our hand by leading a super bowl run or something. . .

IMO, that's no bad deal for him. . . but most assuredly, the FO and coaching staff aren't likely to make too many exceptions for circumstances. . . this is a "prove it" league, and no one wants to hear excuses. . . mcD said it on camera to kyle last year; "it's not about 'my bad' anymore, just make the play". . .

if clady isn't ready to start week one, orton's going to be expected to perform anyway. . . if demaryius thomas proves unready to contribute, kyle's not going to get a mullligan for poor play. . . sometimes individual players do get a little bit of the short end of the stick, but that's the nature of the business, and most of the time the real cream is going to find a way to rise to the top. . .

Well, maybe Orton will never have the chance to play in more "normal"
circumstances. But, I'll tell you, something better normalize with this team, or
there isn't a QB in existence who will help, whether or not his name is Tebow . . .

-----

Northman
06-15-2010, 02:20 AM
My M.O. all along was to give the guy a chance.


So when i state this:


Orton is a good guy so i have no complaints about him in that respect. He says all the right things like a professional should do. But, in the end like everything else its about winning and if he cant get this team into the playoffs than we have to look elsewhere hence why the lack of contract.

Which means that he is going to get his chance. Its the exact same thing that you just stated above champ so why even bother questioning it?

topscribe
06-15-2010, 02:24 AM
Maybe the answer isn't lashing out at people you apparently had no issue with. I've said it before, I'll call out an insulting post for what it is. That said man, I understand the point your trying to make but the way you are making it is IMO decidedly ineffective. Great for venting sure, and pretty damn funny to read for those of us without a real investment in the convo, but not really conducive to achieving your desired effect as far as I'm concerned.

Well with that I'm off to bed, but man, I'll say this.... It's a message board... on the internet. I don't see the payoff on this level of emotional investment for something like this.

What is my desired effect? You best concentrate on your desired effect. You
know what that is. You don't know what my desired effect is.

So all I can say is, get my point. A shallow understanding irritates me . . .

-----

topscribe
06-15-2010, 02:27 AM
So when i state this:



Which means that he is going to get his chance. Its the exact same thing that you just stated above champ so why even bother questioning it?

Why do you bring up something that is not even part of the issue?

I insulted your idol. You missed my point. So you can dislike me from now on.

Next . . .

-----

Northman
06-15-2010, 02:29 AM
Why do you bring up something that is not even part of the issue?

I insulted your idol. You missed my point. So you can dislike me from now on.

Next . . .

-----


Dude, what? :lol:

Can you not even answer my question as too why you would challenge a post that is the same thing as what you stated? Really? WTF happened to you? Seriously?

topscribe
06-15-2010, 02:33 AM
Dude, what? :lol:

Can you not even answer my question as too why you would challenge a post that is the same thing as what you stated? Really? WTF happened to you? Seriously?

You're kidding, right? After all I went through to try to explain my point to you?

Wow. I give up . . .

-----

Northman
06-15-2010, 02:36 AM
You're kidding, right? After all I went through to try to explain my point to you?

Wow. I give up . . .

-----

Ok, go for it Top. Explain your initial point about why John compares to Orton from my initial comment. If you and i are friends than you will take the extra time and try and explain it too me. Its late, but i will wait here and try and understand what your point was in regards to my initial post. :salute:

topscribe
06-15-2010, 02:38 AM
Ok, go for it Top. Explain your initial point about why John compares to Orton from my initial comment. If you and i are friends than you will take the extra time and try and explain it too me. Its late, but i will wait here and try and understand what your point was in regards to my initial post. :salute:

I already did. Go back and review.

I'm out of here. Maybe should never have come back . . .



Maybe the answer isn't lashing out at people you apparently had no issue with. I've said it before, I'll call out an insulting post for what it is. That said man, I understand the point your trying to make but the way you are making it is IMO decidedly ineffective. Great for venting sure, and pretty damn funny to read for those of us without a real investment in the convo, but not really conducive to achieving your desired effect as far as I'm concerned.

Also your biggest issue with me wasn't getting in that end of the conversation, but about Orton, what this thread is about. I come here to talk football and was trying to do exactly that. Its more than okay to disagree with people, but theres a difference between debating and being insulting.

Well with that I'm off to bed, but man, I'll say this.... It's a message board... on the internet. I don't see the payoff on this level of emotional investment for something like this.

As for you, Northman (Anubis) and I have been friends for longer than this
board has been in existence. Best not step in between old friends. It isn't safe . . .

-----

Northman
06-15-2010, 03:00 AM
Ok, well ive gone back and reviewed what you've said to my initial post.

Here is my initial post:


Orton is a good guy so i have no complaints about him in that respect. He says all the right things like a professional should do. But, in the end like everything else its about winning and if he cant get this team into the playoffs than we have to look elsewhere hence why the lack of contract.

Your response:


Makes sense. Now, let's see if he can get his team into the playoffs .


My response:


He will definitely have the opportunity like last year.



Now, here is what i dont understand. At this point we both agree that he will get his chance so we are in total agreement. But then you pointed to Elway in this next post which baffles me because John's situation is nothing like that of Kyle's in any way shape or form. Here's what you said:


That's what he needs. I'm glad, for instance, that the Broncos kept Elway after he failed to get the Broncos into the playoffs . . .

I mean, of course Denver was going to keep Elway because he was a first round talent. And by John's 4th year he had already establised a 34-16 record which included a 2-1 playoff record and a SB appearance.

Kyle has a 29-19 record BUT he actually did not play in the lone playoff game as Rex Grossman came back for that game. One would have to wonder why he didnt play in that game or why the Bears didnt want him to play.


But irregardless, all of this is moot because i had already stated that he was going to get his chance to get the team to the playoffs. So i just dont understand why you tried to hijack the discussion to an area that it had no business being in? It just made no sense to take it there. Now, if your trying to say that Denver should keep Kyle based on what Elway did than you really cant make that arguement because going by history and what is going on now neither the Bears nor Josh McDaniels are sold on Kyle as a long term solution. It would seem that only you believe he is better than he actually is yet not many share your beliefs even those who are much more in the know than you or I.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 03:13 AM
Ok, well ive gone back and reviewed what you've said to my initial post.

Here is my initial post:



Your response:




My response:





Now, here is what i dont understand. At this point we both agree that he will get his chance so we are in total agreement. But then you pointed to Elway in this next post which baffles me because John's situation is nothing like that of Kyle's in any way shape or form. Here's what you said:



I mean, of course Denver was going to keep Elway because he was a first round talent. And by John's 4th year he had already establised a 34-16 record which included a 2-1 playoff record and a SB appearance.

Kyle has a 29-19 record BUT he actually did not play in the lone playoff game as Rex Grossman came back for that game. One would have to wonder why he didnt play in that game or why the Bears didnt want him to play.


But irregardless, all of this is moot because i had already stated that he was going to get his chance to get the team to the playoffs. So i just dont understand why you tried to hijack the discussion to an area that it had no business being in? It just made no sense to take it there. Now, if your trying to say that Denver should keep Kyle based on what Elway did than you really cant make that arguement because going by history and what is going on now neither the Bears nor Josh McDaniels are sold on Kyle as a long term solution. It would seem that only you believe he is better than he actually is yet not many share your beliefs even those who are much more in the know than you or I.

Hijacked? It didn't occur to you that I posted before you did in this thread?
And it didn't occur to you that I was being a little bit sarcastic? You really
think I was so damned stupid that I was all that serious? You were so offended
that I insulted your idol that you failed to see my point, which went much
deeper than your shallow understanding of that particular post.

Now, please do not take that wrong this time. I did not call you shallow. I said
your understanding of that particular post was shallow . . . in other words,
you did not take the time to see what it was I was really saying.

It's so damned easy to offend people around here . . .


Anyway, I really am out of here now. It's late.

-----

Northman
06-15-2010, 03:16 AM
Hijacked? It didn't occur to you that I posted before you did in this thread?
And it didn't occur to you that I was being a little bit sarcastic? You really
think I was so damned stupid that I was all that serious? You were so offended
that I insulted your idol that you failed to see my point, which went much
deeper than your shallow understanding of that particular post.

Now, please do not take that wrong this time. I did not call you shallow. I said
your understanding of that particular post was shallow . . . in other words,
you did not take the time to see what it was I was really saying.

It's so damned easy to offend people around here . . .


Anyway, I really am out of here now. It's late.

-----

Have a good night. It is late.

However, i still dont know what your aiming at so maybe someone else can translate it for me. Ive tried and tried to figure it out. :lol:

Tned
06-15-2010, 07:19 AM
Ok, to sum it up.

Orton sucks, that is all.
/thread


















I was channeling Claymore, I think I pulled it off.

How did I miss this doosie last night when I was ornery and looking for a fight? :argue:

claymore
06-15-2010, 07:30 AM
Ok, to sum it up.

Orton sucks, that is all.
/thread






I was channeling Claymore, I think I pulled it off.

How did I miss this doosie last night when I was ornery and looking for a fight? :argue:
LMFAO, thats exactly what i was going to say.

Love Orton but he will never be as good as Brian Griese.

TXBRONC
06-15-2010, 08:48 AM
If that is what you got out of if and what you still hold onto as far as Orton's capabilities than i dont know what to tell you dude. My point was he needs to get DENVER into the playoffs. Not Chicago. And then, even when he did get Chicago into the playoffs he couldnt hold onto the job unlike Elway. Lets also look at WHEN he got chicago to the playoffs and that was on the back of a very good defense that year. Elway never really had that until later on. So who really is worth the price of admission? A QB who can carry a team to a SB or a QB who can guide a very good defensive team to one? I find it hysterical that you would even attempt to measure the two equally. Sorry, when it comes to this particular debate on whether Orton is the type of the QB who can do special things your just flat out of your mind.

In 15 starts Kyle couldn't even clear 2,000 yards passing or even double digit touchdowns. John in 5 less starts put up nearly the same numbers. I'm saying those were eye popping great numbers but you could see improvement in John from the beginning of the year to the end. Kyle's year looks like he didn't really improve as the year went on.

I think many of us are in agreement that under the right conditions Orton will be ok. If the defense plays well we should be alright. But I'm not confident that if defense falters and we get behind by double digits that Kyle can bring this team back. I don't think his style of play fits having to do those kinds of things. Also I read article on MHR about Orton and what he does/doesn't do in the 4th quarter and it's not pretty. I might go back and see if I can find it.

But bottom line is I know he's going to get a chance to be the starter for this season.

claymore
06-15-2010, 09:10 AM
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100402133214AAKztVa

TXBRONC
06-15-2010, 09:13 AM
Orton wasnt a rookie last year if that is what you were implying. And no one said he was the downfall to last year only that when the defense did fail he couldnt carry them or even make them competitive.

Exactly.

Lonestar
06-15-2010, 09:31 AM
Wow are a lot of folks goona be pissed this year if Ortons. Has a giid year.

Sad for you.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

claymore
06-15-2010, 09:39 AM
Wow are a lot of folks goona be pissed this year if Ortons. Has a giid year.

Sad for you.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

I think shocked, amazed, or flabbergasted is a more appropriate word.

Tned
06-15-2010, 10:00 AM
Wow are a lot of folks goona be pissed this year if Ortons. Has a giid year.

Sad for you.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

No, there are only a FEW posters on this forum that take pride in a Broncos' player struggling, and NONE of them are posting critically of Orton.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 10:57 AM
Ok, to sum it up.

Orton sucks, that is all.
/thread


I was channeling Claymore, I think I pulled it off.

How did I miss this doosie last night when I was ornery and looking for a fight? :argue:

It was quite cathartic. I feel pretty good this morning. :heh:

-----

Lonestar
06-15-2010, 10:59 AM
No, there are only a FEW posters on this forum that take pride in a Broncos' player struggling, and NONE of them are posting critically of Orton.

If you can't see the forest from the trees then I feel for you.


It is plain to most that have been posting here there are LOTS of memebers that hate Josh and in turn Orton that ar just waiting for either or both to fail.

They have invested their love in others and will never change their minds. JMHO.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Tned
06-15-2010, 11:02 AM
If you can't see the forest from the trees then I feel for you.


It is plain to most that have been posting here there are LOTS of memebers that hate Josh and in turn Orton that ar just waiting for either or both to fail.

They have invested their love in others and will never change their minds. JMHO.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Wow. That's all I can say. Wow. :eek:

T.K.O.
06-15-2010, 11:06 AM
one thing i will say for orton is he just keeps on keepin' on !
the guy get's traded and has to learn a new system with new players etc... and has his best year in the pro's ,while working through a torn up finger and later ankle.
the team trades for and drafts two 1st rnd qb's...he shows up for voluntary ota's.
the guy is unflappable.

Tned
06-15-2010, 11:09 AM
one thing i will say for orton is he just keeps on keepin' on !
the guy get's traded and has to learn a new system with new players etc... and has his best year in the pro's ,while working through a torn up finger and later ankle.
the team trades for and drafts two 1st rnd qb's...he shows up for voluntary ota's.
the guy is unflappable.

I think there is some question as to how high his ceiling is, and whether he can carry a team. In terms of his professionalism, commitment to team, effort on the field, etc., I don't think you could ask for more.

Lonestar
06-15-2010, 11:17 AM
one thing i will say for orton is he just keeps on keepin' on !
the guy get's traded and has to learn a new system with new players etc... and has his best year in the pro's ,while working through a torn up finger and later ankle.
the team trades for and drafts two 1st rnd qb's...he shows up for voluntary ota's.
the guy is unflappable.

Yep he is quite a guy.

Let's hope that his spunk translates to great play on the field this year so he can get a great contract after this year.
If anyone deserves it he does.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

arapaho2
06-15-2010, 11:17 AM
Oh, so when Orton quarterbacked the Bears to the playoffs, the defense is
who did it. But when the Broncos defense collapsed last season, it was Orton
who failed to take the Broncos to the playoffs.

I knew you would come back with that. I'm glad you did. :lol:

P.S. It was 1983. Elway's first year. 11 games. 1,663 yards passing. 3 games
where he threw for under 100 yds. 14 TDs, 28 INTs. 54.9 QBR.

Rookies have a rough time in the NFL, don't they? :coffee:

-----


in all honesty

ortons rookie year the bears was the 2nd overall defense and the #1 SCOREING DEFENSE IN THE LEAGUE

compared to elways 21st total defense and 20th in scoreing


the bears offense was 8th in rushing compared to elways 23rd place rankings

kinda makes a big differance.....but you know that right

T.K.O.
06-15-2010, 11:19 AM
I think there is some question as to how high his ceiling is, and whether he can carry a team. In terms of his professionalism, commitment to team, effort on the field, etc., I don't think you could ask for more.

i think barring injury we will find out exactly how high that ceiling is this year.
knows the system,should have an improved oline,run game and hopefully defense.
if he can't play well enough to produce 10 wins in this division with what appears to be a reasonbly easy schedule....well,we will be finding out if quinn or tebow have what it takes !

NightTrainLayne
06-15-2010, 11:36 AM
No, there are only a FEW posters on this forum that take pride in a Broncos' player struggling, and NONE of them are posting critically of Orton.

Bam!

My nomination for post of the year.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 11:56 AM
in all honesty

ortons rookie year the bears was the 2nd overall defense and the #1 SCOREING DEFENSE IN THE LEAGUE

compared to elways 21st total defense and 20th in scoreing


the bears offense was 8th in rushing compared to elways 23rd place rankings

kinda makes a big differance.....but you know that right

As I mentioned, it sets up quite a paradox: Orton's 2005 Bears went to the
playoffs because of the defense, and Orton had nothing to do with it - but
Orton's 2009 Broncos failed to make the playoffs because of Orton, with little
to no mention of the defensive collapse.

It would just seem more reasonable to give Orton partial credit for the Bears'
success and partial blame for the Broncos' collapse . . .


And it's still amazing that no one seems to have picked up on what I was
getting at with my mention of Elway. It's best to be careful of taking on the
appearance of blaspheming a god, I guess . . .

-----

claymore
06-15-2010, 12:00 PM
As I mentioned, it sets up quite a paradox: Orton's 2005 Bears went to the
playoffs because of the defense, and Orton had nothing to do with it - but
Orton's 2009 Broncos failed to make the playoffs because of Orton, with little
to no mention of the defensive collapse.

It would just seem more reasonable to give Orton partial credit for the Bears'
success and partial blame for the Broncos' collapse . . .


And it's still amazing that no one seems to have picked up on what I was
getting at with my mention of Elway. It's best not to blaspheme a god, I guess . . .

-----
Maybe Orton didnt help either team go anywhere. That is fair and consistent.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 12:03 PM
Maybe Orton didnt help either team go anywhere. That is fair and consistent.

And maybe he helped them both. Just as fair and consistent.

But a better position would be to give him credit for his achievements and just
criticism for the areas where he has needed to improve.

But maybe that's just asking too much . . .

-----

slim
06-15-2010, 12:04 PM
Oh good, another argument about Orton.

Those never get old.

Northman
06-15-2010, 12:09 PM
Wow are a lot of folks goona be pissed this year if Ortons. Has a giid year.

Sad for you.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums


I think Orton would be pissed if he had a giid year too. However, if he has a good year than all bronco fans will be happy. But, from a technical standpoint he had a good year last year and we missed the playoffs. So really, i dont care about his personal stats. I just want to win and make the playoffs and so on and if he can do that wonderful. If not, find someone else who can pretty simple logic.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-15-2010, 12:10 PM
Oh good, another argument about Orton.

Those never get old.

I am sure for some of us they do get old - very old

Northman
06-15-2010, 12:11 PM
one thing i will say for orton is he just keeps on keepin' on !
the guy get's traded and has to learn a new system with new players etc... and has his best year in the pro's ,while working through a torn up finger and later ankle.
the team trades for and drafts two 1st rnd qb's...he shows up for voluntary ota's.
the guy is unflappable.

He does have amazing character, got to love that in a guy.

claymore
06-15-2010, 12:14 PM
And maybe he helped them both. Just as fair and consistent.

But a better position would be to give him credit for his achievements and just
criticism for the areas where he has needed to improve.

But maybe that's just asking too much . . .

-----

What exactly did he achieve? He sucked in 2005, and was a middle of the pack QB last year.

LTC Pain
06-15-2010, 12:41 PM
If Orton let's his performance do the talking then he needs to speak much LOUDER!

honz
06-15-2010, 12:49 PM
Orton wasn't great last year, but he certainly wasn't responsible for our collapse. He threw for nearly 4,000 yards with a bad running game supporting the passing game.

Tned
06-15-2010, 12:59 PM
i think barring injury we will find out exactly how high that ceiling is this year.
knows the system,should have an improved oline,run game and hopefully defense.
if he can't play well enough to produce 10 wins in this division with what appears to be a reasonbly easy schedule....well,we will be finding out if quinn or tebow have what it takes !

I'm not sure. He will be better prepared, as it's hard to judge a QB in his first year. However, there are big question marks on the line and receiver. We don't know how quickly the young WR's will come along and produce, and like him or hate him, going from Marshall to Gaffney is a huge drop.

On the line, a lot depends on the health of the Ryans. When will Clady be able to play, and how will he play? Is Harris fully healed from the toe injuries? Who will play center and left guard and will they be better than Hochstein and Weigman next year?

There are a lot of questions on offense that could make it hard for Orton to show would he's capable of.

Ravage!!!
06-15-2010, 01:37 PM
I personally think we have seen what Orton is capable of. Unless he was struck with some magical lightning bolt, he's going to be the Orton we've always seen. He is what he is.

HORSEPOWER 56
06-15-2010, 02:20 PM
I just want to win some mother#$%^ing games this year. It would be super awesome to have Orton lead the Broncos to a win week one in Jax while I'm in attendance to see it.

I really want to see what Orton can do this year. Our offense is about as big a ? as you can get right now. Hopefully, he can actually lead it this year instead of just being along for the ride.

I just don't know how I'll react if our offense is worse this year.

I'm optimistic, though! :madgrin:

BroncoWave
06-15-2010, 02:55 PM
As I mentioned, it sets up quite a paradox: Orton's 2005 Bears went to the
playoffs because of the defense, and Orton had nothing to do with it - but
Orton's 2009 Broncos failed to make the playoffs because of Orton, with little
to no mention of the defensive collapse.

Not a single person has said this, that is just a lie. What everyone is saying is that when the defense was playing great Orton was just good enough to lead us to wins but when the defense fell apart, he didn't have the ability to put up big points and bring us back in games. No one is saying we failed to make the playoffs because of Orton, they are saying we failed to make the playoffs because the defense fell apart and Orton wasn't good enough to make up for it. It's quite simple really.

BroncoWave
06-15-2010, 02:58 PM
I think Orton would be pissed if he had a giid year too. However, if he has a good year than all bronco fans will be happy. But, from a technical standpoint he had a good year last year and we missed the playoffs. So really, i dont care about his personal stats. I just want to win and make the playoffs and so on and if he can do that wonderful. If not, find someone else who can pretty simple logic.

Agreed. I don't think there are very many if any Broncos fans who actually WANT Orton to play poorly. Many of us just think that he's hit his ceiling and will never be more than a middle of the road journeyman QB.

Tned
06-15-2010, 03:04 PM
Agreed. I don't think there are very many if any Broncos fans who actually WANT Orton to play poorly. Many of us just think that he's hit his ceiling and will never be more than a middle of the road journeyman QB.

BTB, please stop spreading your McDaniel's hate. You're bad aura is killing our euphoric summer buz....

BroncoWave
06-15-2010, 03:09 PM
BTB, please stop spreading your McDaniel's hate. You're bad aura is killing our euphoric summer buz....

Sorry, I jusr feel like we don't have enough negative nancies on this board! :lol:

Tned
06-15-2010, 03:15 PM
Sorry, I jusr feel like we don't have enough negative nancies on this board! :lol:

You're just a hater. Ya'll are butt hurt cause Jaysus is gone and mikey is gone. Get over it, stop hating on Josh. He and X-man are the best HC/GM combo in football. No matter how much you hate, it won't change that.

topscribe
06-15-2010, 03:28 PM
Not a single person has said this, that is just a lie. What everyone is saying is that when the defense was playing great Orton was just good enough to lead us to wins but when the defense fell apart, he didn't have the ability to put up big points and bring us back in games. No one is saying we failed to make the playoffs because of Orton, they are saying we failed to make the playoffs because the defense fell apart and Orton wasn't good enough to make up for it. It's quite simple really.


Not really. Chicago's defense did the most of the work. In 15 starts he couldn't even get 2000 yards passing. He also had three games where he threw for under a 100 yards. And finally for the year he threw 9 touchdown passes.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/teams/stats?team=chi&year=2005

http://espn.go.com/nfl/teams/schedule?team=chi&year=2005

Nothing like a person lying while calling someone else a liar.

I see a couple people saluted your lie. I guess that's honorable around here?



So what happened in 1985, 1988, 1990, 1992, and 1994?

-----

Sometimes even the best isn't good enough . . .

-----

BroncoWave
06-15-2010, 03:33 PM
Nothing like a person lying while calling someone else a liar.

I see a couple people saluted your lie. I guess that's honorable around here?




Sometimes even the best isn't good enough . . .

-----

The post of TX's you quoted has nothing to do with what I accused you of lying about. Show me ONE post in this thread saying we fell apart this season BECAUSE of Orton and I'll take it back.

BroncoWave
06-15-2010, 03:37 PM
Sometimes even the best isn't good enough . . .

-----

That's exactly our point though. Elway only sometimes wasn't good enough to get a team to the playoffs. It's the norm for Kyle Orton though. In 5 seasons in this league he's made the playoffs once.

BroncoWave
06-15-2010, 03:38 PM
I don't give a shit what you take back or what you do. I don't care what you do.
Nor do I see where I will anytime in the near future.

TX's post is part of what I was referring to. It was my statement, so I will
decide whether his post has anything to do with it, not you.

-----

Show me a post where someone said we missed the playoffs BECAUSE of Orton. You can't do it because what you said wasn't true.

TXBRONC
06-15-2010, 04:12 PM
Not a single person has said this, that is just a lie. What everyone is saying is that when the defense was playing great Orton was just good enough to lead us to wins but when the defense fell apart, he didn't have the ability to put up big points and bring us back in games. No one is saying we failed to make the playoffs because of Orton, they are saying we failed to make the playoffs because the defense fell apart and Orton wasn't good enough to make up for it. It's quite simple really.

Bulls eye. This is exactly what we've been saying. :salute:

TXBRONC
06-15-2010, 04:51 PM
Nothing like a person lying while calling someone else a liar.

I see a couple people saluted your lie. I guess that's honorable around here?




Sometimes even the best isn't good enough . . .

-----

Yep, I saluted him because he's right.

Your perceptions and what reality is are not in harmony.

BigBroncLove
06-15-2010, 04:57 PM
Yep, I saluted him because he's right.

Your perceptions and what the reality is are not in harmony.

Yep. Most of the time, when its you against the world, the world isn't the one with the problem.... :) thought I'd just throw that out there.

TXBRONC
06-15-2010, 05:23 PM
Yep. Most of the time, when its you against the world, the world isn't the one with the problem.... :) thought I'd just throw that out there.

Agreed.

I think Orton is an ok quarterback. In other words, I think he's a journeyman. Could he possible break through and become better quarterback than I think he is? Sure and if does great I'm all for it. But I don't see it happening.

We can debate forever (not that I really want to do that) but it really doesn't matter what we think. It matters what McDaniels thinks and his actions don't indicate that he see Orton as long term solution.

BigBroncLove
06-15-2010, 05:31 PM
Agreed.

I think Orton is an ok quarterback. In other words, I think he's a journeyman. Could he possible break through and become better quarterback than I think he is? Sure and if does great I'm all for it. But I don't see it happening.

We can debate forever (not that I really want to do that) but it really doesn't matter what we think. It matters what McDaniels thinks and his actions don't indicate that he see Orton as long term solution.

Well that, and while I enjoy talking football, I think theres a point that you have to let actions speak for themselves. Kind of like the title of this thread :). What my first post in the thread spoke to. That said, I won't get to off topic on other obvservations I feel I've made from the full breadth of this thread. However it is entertaining to read! even the stuff from last night I already read.

I am interested in how Orton has progressed in the ssytem. I do think he will be better, how markedly so and if it can make the offense look less inept remains to be seen. From the OLine, to short yardage running, and to the QB this offense has a lot of ground to make up. Thing that's great about the offseason is its much easier for me at least to be optimistic then the alternative when real game time hits the playing field when I tend to be far more critical of overall play on both sides of the ball.

topscribe
06-16-2010, 02:05 AM
What exactly did he achieve? He sucked in 2005, and was a middle of the pack QB last year.

Clay, you're so narrow-minded that, when you walk, your ears rub together . . . :listen:

Elevation inc
06-16-2010, 04:24 AM
Not a single person has said this, that is just a lie. What everyone is saying is that when the defense was playing great Orton was just good enough to lead us to wins but when the defense fell apart, he didn't have the ability to put up big points and bring us back in games. No one is saying we failed to make the playoffs because of Orton, they are saying we failed to make the playoffs because the defense fell apart and Orton wasn't good enough to make up for it. It's quite simple really.

This is the best general consensus I have seen on how most of us feel about orton...good job...:beer:

TXBRONC
06-16-2010, 06:31 AM
Clay, you're so narrow-minded that, when you walk, your ears rub together . . . :listen:

You're better than this.

He's right about Orton's play in '05. Yeah I know he was a rookie but that doesn't change the fact he had a bad year. While '09 was the best year of Orton's career it was still statistically middle of the pack.

claymore
06-16-2010, 06:45 AM
Clay, you're so narrow-minded that, when you walk, your ears rub together . . . :listen:

Orton only makes you say "wow" in a bad way.

I like the guy as a person, and I will be absolutley shocked if he turns into a better QB. I will also be very happy because I like him so much.

He will never be a better QB unless he starts to says "**** it" and starts taking some more chances (IMO).

Hes a great QB if you have the 2001 Ravens defense. If you dont, he is a team/coach killer because he cannot generate anything on his own.

BroncoWave
06-16-2010, 08:37 AM
You're better than this.

He's right about Orton's play in '05. Yeah I know he was a rookie but that doesn't change the fact he had a bad year. While '09 was the best year of Orton's career it was still statistically middle of the pack.

I'm not so sure about that...

It's pretty funny though. Top get called out in a lie, is challenged and asked to back up his claim, and is now nowhere to be seen. Tells me all I need to know.

NightTrainLayne
06-16-2010, 09:16 AM
That's enough of the personal comments and accusations of lying for this thread. Let's keep it on topic please.

topscribe
06-16-2010, 09:46 AM
Orton only makes you say "wow" in a bad way.

I like the guy as a person, and I will be absolutley shocked if he turns into a better QB. I will also be very happy because I like him so much.

He will never be a better QB unless he starts to says "**** it" and starts taking some more chances (IMO).

Hes a great QB if you have the 2001 Ravens defense. If you dont, he is a team/coach killer because he cannot generate anything on his own.

You may be right, but I thought I came up with a pretty good one-liner, anyway. :D

-----

claymore
06-16-2010, 09:54 AM
You may be right, but I thought I came up with a pretty good one-liner, anyway. :D

-----
I think your one liner was the most correct post in the thread!

topscribe
06-16-2010, 10:03 AM
I think your one liner was the most correct post in the thread!

I really think you ought to put Orton's pinup on the ceiling above your bed, Clay.

-----

claymore
06-16-2010, 10:08 AM
I really think you ought to put Orton's pinup on the ceiling above your bed, Clay.

-----

I like Orton as a human, and a drinker. Just not as a QB. I have a t-shirt with him on it.

http://www.shop.hometownherotees.com/images/kyle-orton-160.jpg

topscribe
06-16-2010, 10:16 AM
I like Orton as a human, and a drinker. Just not as a QB. I have a t-shirt with him on it.

http://www.shop.hometownherotees.com/images/kyle-orton-160.jpg

What if Orton plays so well this year that he makes a fan out of you? Then what
are you going to do? Clay, I know you: You've got to have your red-headed
stepchild, or you won't be happy.

I'm just looking out for you, Clay, that's all. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thhuh.gif

-

TXBRONC
06-16-2010, 10:58 AM
Orton only makes you say "wow" in a bad way.

I like the guy as a person, and I will be absolutley shocked if he turns into a better QB. I will also be very happy because I like him so much.

He will never be a better QB unless he starts to says "**** it" and starts taking some more chances (IMO).

Hes a great QB if you have the 2001 Ravens defense. If you dont, he is a team/coach killer because he cannot generate anything on his own.

Just about every game if not every game there will be opportunities to get plays down field in big chunks. Offenses have to take advantage of that because you expect their not going have 8 plays or more drives every time they touch the ball.

Orton acknowledged that there is a need for them to try and get big plays when the opportunity presents itself. Now lets see if he can/will put his words into actions.

Slick
06-16-2010, 12:54 PM
nope, no jay here-- false alarm. . . no need to get excited. . . .

No shit.

The guys who were upset that Jay got traded and made some noise about it last year have all moved on at this point. (except Arapaho)

The ones who were happy Jay got dealt still want to throw that in their faces.

dogfish
06-16-2010, 01:34 PM
No shit.

The guys who were upset that Jay got traded and made some noise about it last year have all moved on at this point. (except Arapaho)

The ones who were happy Jay got dealt still want to throw that in their faces.

ironic, isn't it?

TXBRONC
06-16-2010, 04:31 PM
No shit.

The guys who were upset that Jay got traded and made some noise about it last year have all moved on at this point. (except Arapaho)

The ones who were happy Jay got dealt still want to throw that in their faces.

Amen to that.

My views on Orton have nothing to do with Cutler. It has everything to do with watching him for a full season. It's based on his performance alone.

arapaho2
06-17-2010, 11:57 AM
No shit.

The guys who were upset that Jay got traded and made some noise about it last year have all moved on at this point. (except Arapaho)

The ones who were happy Jay got dealt still want to throw that in their faces.


i guess your gonna have to show me where i am crying for cutler still....or admit your full of shit..either way:coffee:

Crush05
06-19-2010, 02:15 PM
All I want for my big day is for Orton to be released! Just one wish is all I ask!

T.K.O.
06-19-2010, 02:22 PM
All I want for my big day is for Orton to be released! Just one wish is all I ask!

yeah that would be awesome!
then we would have quinn who has won about 6 games in his career and a rookie who is projected to take a couple years before he is ready to play at the nfl level !
maybe we could call up simms and see if he wants another shot:laugh:

dunk7
06-20-2010, 10:53 AM
yeah that would be awesome!
then we would have quinn who has won about 6 games in his career and a rookie who is projected to take a couple years before he is ready to play at the nfl level !
maybe we could call up simms and see if he wants another shot:laugh:


But then we could sign JaMarcus and that would be an upgrade over Orton.

BroncoWave
06-20-2010, 11:11 AM
But then we could sign JaMarcus and that would be an upgrade over Orton.

Or you could leave and that would be an upgrade for this forum. :coffee:

Northman
06-20-2010, 11:25 AM
Or you could leave and that would be an upgrade for this forum. :coffee:

Thats not very nice BTB.

BroncoWave
06-20-2010, 11:28 AM
Thats not very nice BTB.

Well the next nice think Dunk says about a Broncos player or coach will be the first!

topscribe
06-20-2010, 01:39 PM
Thats not very nice BTB.

But typical. (Which is why the only way I could see the comment is because you quoted it.)

-----

Slick
06-21-2010, 07:21 AM
i guess your gonna have to show me where i am crying for cutler still....or admit your full of shit..either way:coffee:

Are you telling me you're not still bitter about Cutler, Marshall and Sheffler being gone?

I'm not searching this place for your rants, but I know what I've read. Many of your posts are filled with a McDaniels screwed up a perfectly;y good offense type of undertone. I was just saying others have moved on (and still get antagonized about it from time to time unfortunately) and you seem to still harbor some resentment.


It wasn't meant as a put down.

GGMoogly
06-21-2010, 08:05 AM
After meditating on this for quite some time, I think I see what the real problem with Orton is as far as the fans are concerned and it really isn't so much his football skills. It's something much more primal. He just does not put out that Alpha Dog vibe. He's a nice guy who can do a good job, but is he a leader? I'm not in the huddle where it really counts, so I don't know how his teammates view him, but the aura that surrounds him in public seems more...conciliatory. I don't see that take-charge, blood-and-guts attitude or even casual cockiness that winners often have.

Anyway, it's just a thought...

HORSEPOWER 56
06-21-2010, 08:22 AM
After meditating on this for quite some time, I think I see what the real problem with Orton is as far as the fans are concerned and it really isn't so much his football skills. It's something much more primal. He just does not put out that Alpha Dog vibe. He's a nice guy who can do a good job, but is he a leader? I'm not in the huddle where it really counts, so I don't know how his teammates view him, but the aura that surrounds him in public seems more...conciliatory. I don't see that take-charge, blood-and-guts attitude or even casual cockiness that winners often have.

Anyway, it's just a thought...

I think that's part of it but there have been plenty of great QBs who weren't "rah, rah" guys. I honestly think its the football skills he's demonstrated.

As Bronco fans, we're used to having QBs that can do it all physically like Elway and Cutler (make all the throws and scramble) or at least make something happen with their feet when things break down (Plummer). Griese was very accurate and had a pretty good arm until his shoulder injury and drinking problem (alleged of course ;)) started affecting him on the field.

Orton, while putting up decent stats due to the conservatism of his play combined with the conservatism of this offensive scheme hasn't shown 9me at least) the ability to make all the throws consistently, to avoid the rush, to put the offense on his back and make plays when down late in games, or to really get in the team's face about mistakes and show that leadership quality. You've got to have at least some of that. IMO, Orton is a human juggs machine out there. He runs the plays that are called, throws in the direction of the WR he's supposed to, doesn't really think on his feet, and is kind of just a placeholder on the field.

GGMoogly
06-21-2010, 08:56 AM
I think that's part of it but there have been plenty of great QBs who weren't "rah, rah" guys. I honestly think its the football skills he's demonstrated.

I'm not talking about a "rah, rah" guy, but an Alpha mentality and that can take many forms. Tom Brady is an Alpha and I wouldn't describe him as "rah, rah"; certainly confident - steely, in fact. PManning seems like a nice guy, but there's no doubt who's in charge. Elway, Favre, Montana - those guys had "it".

Of course, we have a lot of savvy people on this forum and I'm sure the majority emphasis when it comes to analysis is on football skills, but I'm talking about Orton's struggle for acceptance with the fan base, personality-wise.

TXBRONC
06-21-2010, 09:25 AM
I think that's part of it but there have been plenty of great QBs who weren't "rah, rah" guys. I honestly think its the football skills he's demonstrated.

As Bronco fans, we're used to having QBs that can do it all physically like Elway and Cutler (make all the throws and scramble) or at least make something happen with their feet when things break down (Plummer). Griese was very accurate and had a pretty good arm until his shoulder injury and drinking problem (alleged of course ;)) started affecting him on the field.

Orton, while putting up decent stats due to the conservatism of his play combined with the conservatism of this offensive scheme hasn't shown 9me at least) the ability to make all the throws consistently, to avoid the rush, to put the offense on his back and make plays when down late in games, or to really get in the team's face about mistakes and show that leadership quality. You've got to have at least some of that. IMO, Orton is a human juggs machine out there. He runs the plays that are called, throws in the direction of the WR he's supposed to, doesn't really think on his feet, and is kind of just a placeholder on the field.

I wonder if it's really the play calling that has been conservative or was it Orton more times than not checking down to safer plays. Let's face it Orton has never met a bubble screen (obviously that's a conservative play call by the coach what it is what he likes) or a little 3-5 yard dump off play he didn't like.

Lonestar
06-21-2010, 10:22 AM
The players voted him Captain IIRC the ultimate respect.

It does not matter if the fans supposedly like him or not as to whether he is effective, it is if his teamates do.

He was a party animal in CHI and seems to be a family man in DEN. Nothing wrong with that except in some maroons eyes.

I'd rather have a smart QB that knows and can make the throws in the playbook than a wild man that makes mistakes. More often than not they lose more games than they win in that mode.

I still can't fathom what some expected from this team last year considering all of the changes and injuries.

When you change the dynamics of a precision group like the OL by one it is hard to overcome but replacing hamilton and then losing harris coupled with a weaker center. Folks that would have been tough without all the scheme changes.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

TXBRONC
06-21-2010, 10:30 AM
Orton was elected team captain last year not because he had won his teammates over with his commanding presences it was because he was the starting quarterback.

T.K.O.
06-21-2010, 10:51 AM
i honestly believe that if the broncos had won say....their fist 2 games then lost 1 then won 1 then lost 2 etc....and we finished 8-8
there would be alot less discontent with both orton and mcD.
at the start of the year with the brutal schedule and all the changes most fans would have been pretty happy with an 8-8 finish....right?
but the fact that we started 6-0 and finished where we did just sucked the life out of alot of fans.(understandably)
compounded with the embarrassing finish in 08' it was just too much for some to take.
i remember thinking after 08'...."oh man no way can we do that 2 years in a row" i remember when the oddsmakers said the broncos had a 94% chance of making the playoffs in week 7.....83%..........76%.......40,30,20,10........0: mad:
it's hard not to be completely frustrated after 2 seasons look so promising and end so badly !
but i will keep the faith and know that the team is making major changes with the hope of building something special...something different.....something we have not seen in the mile high city for over a decade !:salute:

arapaho2
06-21-2010, 03:42 PM
Are you telling me you're not still bitter about Cutler, Marshall and Sheffler being gone?

I'm not searching this place for your rants, but I know what I've read. Many of your posts are filled with a McDaniels screwed up a perfectly;y good offense type of undertone. I was just saying others have moved on (and still get antagonized about it from time to time unfortunately) and you seem to still harbor some resentment.


It wasn't meant as a put down.


heres the issue that seems to go over your head.....because i dont agree cutler is a asshat, mistake throwing waste of a qb...and i think it was a mistake trade him

because i dont agree with tradeing marshall, scheffler or hillis either

doesnt make me guilty of crying over them

I SIMPLY DONT LIKE THE DIRECTION THIS TEAM IS GOING UNDER MCDS LEADERSHIP...WHICH IN ONE YEAR AMOUNTS TO LOSING TWO PROBOWL PLAYERS, AND A OFFENSIVE TEAM THAT WAS ON THE VERGE OF GREATNESS, reduced to a offense of average players in the key positions

because i think that in a few years we will be regretting the cutler fiasco much like the colts did with the elway trade...that dont mean im crying or not a fan

untill mcd shows proof he can do something other then dismantle a team....i can be wary and upset over the direction we seem to be going

T.K.O.
06-21-2010, 04:51 PM
"AND A OFFENSIVE TEAM THAT WAS ON THE VERGE OF GREATNESS"

:D:laugh::lol:

8-8 is 8-8 no matter how many probowlers you have.....
we had 5 last year.....still smelled like 8-8 to this fan;)
although we did at least beat the chargers !

Lonestar
06-21-2010, 04:52 PM
"AND A OFFENSIVE TEAM THAT WAS ON THE VERGE OF GREATNESS"

:D:laugh::lol:

8-8 is 8-8 no matter how many probowlers you have.....
we had 5 last year.....still smelled like 8-8 to this fan;)

greatness between the 20's doth not score much.:salute::salute::salute::salute::salute:

Slick
06-21-2010, 05:13 PM
heres the issue that seems to go over your head.....because i dont agree cutler is a asshat, mistake throwing waste of a qb...and i think it was a mistake trade him

because i dont agree with tradeing marshall, scheffler or hillis either

doesnt make me guilty of crying over them

I SIMPLY DONT LIKE THE DIRECTION THIS TEAM IS GOING UNDER MCDS LEADERSHIP...WHICH IN ONE YEAR AMOUNTS TO LOSING TWO PROBOWL PLAYERS, AND A OFFENSIVE TEAM THAT WAS ON THE VERGE OF GREATNESS, reduced to a offense of average players in the key positions

because i think that in a few years we will be regretting the cutler fiasco much like the colts did with the elway trade...that dont mean im crying or not a fan

untill mcd shows proof he can do something other then dismantle a team....i can be wary and upset over the direction we seem to be going

Lighten up arapaho. I said none of these things. No need to yell at me. You're perfectly within your rights not to like McDaniels. I was just saying you still havent't moved on and harbored some resentment that bleeds through in your posts. No where did I say you were crying or less of a fan.

arapaho2
06-21-2010, 05:31 PM
greatness between the 20's doth not score much.:salute::salute::salute::salute::salute:


yep with the core all under 25..all in thier first years together as a team, without a quality rb to carry his share

if you cannot see the potential that group had, with a few more years together to mold, whether josh was the coach or not...then i cant help you

tell me though for shits and giggles..did our redzone offense get better or worse this past year

T.K.O.
06-21-2010, 05:37 PM
yep with the core all under 25..all in thier first years together as a team, without a quality rb to carry his share

if you cannot see the potential that group had, with a few more years together to mold, whether josh was the coach or not...then i cant help you

tell me though for shits and giggles..did our redzone offense get better or worse this past year

i don't think a few more int's would have helped us any:laugh:

Lonestar
06-21-2010, 08:33 PM
i don't think a few more int's would have helped us any:laugh:

Glad I did not see that one.

Obvious to most where his loyalties LIE.

But then everyone is entitled to be wrong.

There is little doubt in my mind that this will be a better TEAM next year than any we have seen since when mikey still had the mojo when he rebuilt a team into a winner.

But then got eggoed into believing his BM did nit stink.

When Pat told him he was coach for life Pat did not realize it would be a lifetime for the good fans in DEN.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

TXBRONC
06-21-2010, 10:27 PM
i don't think a few more int's would have helped us any:laugh:

Well Orton's sure as hell didn't help either did it? :lol::lol::lol:

arapaho2
06-22-2010, 11:24 AM
i don't think a few more int's would have helped us any:laugh:


and why would you think he would throw more than orton?...given a solid oline, decent running game, and three exxcelent wrs in marshall, royal and scheffler who he was growing with?....oh because he had a bad year on a new team with a horrid oline and no wrs:lol:

besides...how did ortons fewer ints actually improve the offense
is it got us
fewer yards
fewer points
fewer Tds
worse RZ conversion
worse 3rd down%

so explain how it was better again?

arapaho2
06-22-2010, 11:25 AM
Glad I did not see that one.

Obvious to most where his loyalties LIE.

But then everyone is entitled to be wrong.

There is little doubt in my mind that this will be a better TEAM next year than any we have seen since when mikey still had the mojo when he rebuilt a team into a winner.

But then got eggoed into believing his BM did nit stink.

When Pat told him he was coach for life Pat did not realize it would be a lifetime for the good fans in DEN.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

where does my loyalties lie oh wise hypocrite?

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 12:39 PM
and why would you think he would throw more than orton?...given a solid oline, decent running game, and three exxcelent wrs in marshall, royal and scheffler who he was growing with?....oh because he had a bad year on a new team with a horrid oline and no wrs:lol:

besides...how did ortons fewer ints actually improve the offense
is it got us
fewer yards
fewer points
fewer Tds
worse RZ conversion
worse 3rd down%

so explain how it was better again?

because he's a pick machine....and i dont like him anymore !he's a bear and i don't like Da'bears.
and our oline was not very good last year and the running game was crap down the stretch.

TXBRONC
06-22-2010, 01:43 PM
because he's a pick machine....and i dont like him anymore !he's a bear and i don't like Da'bears.
and our oline was not very good last year and the running game was crap down the stretch.

The offensive line was a lot better than some people are willing to admit. Orton's inadequacies as quarterback were a bigger issue that the offensive line.:coffee:

Bosco
06-22-2010, 02:02 PM
i guess your gonna have to show me where i am crying for cutler still....or admit your full of shit..either way:coffee:

I don't know about crying for Cutler but it seems you can't go more than a couple posts without trying to convince us that Josh is a liar.

I'm not sure which one makes you look worse.

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 02:05 PM
The offensive line was a lot better than some people are willing to admit. Orton's inadequacies as quarterback were a bigger issue that the offensive line.:coffee:

i just watched moreno get met 2-3 yds deep on 2 4th down attempts to keep us in the indy game....our oline was suckin' wind and ass down the stretch.
but yeah the whole team was pretty much done for after week 13...just like the year before

Bosco
06-22-2010, 02:17 PM
i just watched moreno get met 2-3 yds deep on 2 4th down attempts to keep us in the indy game....our oline was suckin' wind and ass down the stretch.
but yeah the whole team was pretty much done for after week 13...just like the year before

Yeah, it's pretty much impossible to defend the OL right now.

TXBRONC
06-22-2010, 02:28 PM
i just watched moreno get met 2-3 yds deep on 2 4th down attempts to keep us in the indy game....our oline was suckin' wind and ass down the stretch.
but yeah the whole team was pretty much done for after week 13...just like the year before

Yep and a healthy Buckhalter was getting 5 yards a pop behind the same line go figure. :coffee:

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 02:45 PM
Yep and a healthy Buckhalter was getting 5 yards a pop behind the same line go figure. :coffee:

maybe you should read my posts S....L....O....W.....E......R.
you seem to miss alot.
"our oline was suckin' wind and ass down the stretch.
but yeah the whole team was pretty much done for after week 13...just like the year before"

Bosco
06-22-2010, 02:46 PM
Yep and a healthy Buckhalter was getting 5 yards a pop behind the same line go figure. :coffee:

Because he is more of an outside runner. Do I really need explain to you how following Clady, Graham and a healthy Harris was about 100 times easier than following Wiegmann, Hochstein and the ghost of Ben Hamilton?

Northman
06-22-2010, 02:54 PM
Wow, the excuses never end. lmao

Bosco
06-22-2010, 03:03 PM
Wow, the excuses never end. lmao

So which part of my post was wrong?

Northman
06-22-2010, 03:08 PM
So which part of my post was wrong?

None. But its not entirely true either which is why i laugh. Bucky was not just an outside rusher and same for Moreno. Both did a mixture of both. Bucky had just as much success in the middle as he did on the outside.

Bosco
06-22-2010, 03:13 PM
None. But its not entirely true either which is why i laugh. Bucky was not just an outside rusher and same for Moreno. Both did a mixture of both. Bucky had just as much success in the middle as he did on the outside.

Buckhalter is more of an outside rusher. He's been that way since his days at Nebraska.

TXBRONC
06-22-2010, 03:18 PM
Buckhalter is more of an outside rusher. He's been that way since his days at Nebraska.

Being more one thing than an other doesn't preclude him having rushing attempts between the tackles which Buckhalter did. Do you need someone to draw you a picture?

Northman
06-22-2010, 03:20 PM
Buckhalter is more of an outside rusher. He's been that way since his days at Nebraska.

Which has nothing to do with what TX and i just stated. Bucky was just as SUCCESSFUL on the inside as he was on the outside. However, Moreno didnt always have that success so i think its safe to say that it wasnt just the OL that had difficulties last year in fact, not nearly as much as some would imply here which is what TX was getting at.

Bosco
06-22-2010, 03:20 PM
Being more one thing than an other doesn't preclude him having rushing attempts between the tackles which Buckhalter did.

I don't think I need the guy who thinks restricted free agents are still under contract to tell me that.

Northman
06-22-2010, 03:21 PM
Being more one thing than an other doesn't preclude him having rushing attempts between the tackles which Buckhalter did. Do you someone to draw you a picture?

:lol::lol:

Evidently.

TXBRONC
06-22-2010, 03:46 PM
:lol::lol:

Evidently.

:nod:

arapaho2
06-22-2010, 04:09 PM
because he's a pick machine....and i dont like him anymore !he's a bear and i don't like Da'bears.
and our oline was not very good last year and the running game was crap down the stretch.


good thing for payton manning his 81 ints in his first four seasons...which is more than cutlers ..didnt label him a pic machine:coffee:

arapaho2
06-22-2010, 04:12 PM
I don't know about crying for Cutler but it seems you can't go more than a couple posts without trying to convince us that Josh is a liar.

I'm not sure which one makes you look worse.

ok ok im a crier....cool...since your the opposite does that make mean your dangling on mcds nutsack?
:lol:

arapaho2
06-22-2010, 04:15 PM
Because he is more of an outside runner. Do I really need explain to you how following Clady, Graham and a healthy Harris was about 100 times easier than following Wiegmann, Hochstein and the ghost of Ben Hamilton?


maybe your confusing your thoughts with fact...but the fact is buck had a larger % of his total carries between the tackles than did moreno

if your gonna make an silly aurgument at least make sure it hasnt already been debunked

Bosco
06-22-2010, 04:28 PM
maybe your confusing your thoughts with fact...but the fact is buck had a larger % of his total carries between the tackles than did moreno

if your gonna make an silly aurgument at least make sure it hasnt already been debunked

Source?

TXBRONC
06-22-2010, 04:31 PM
Source?

You haven't provided one.

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 04:35 PM
good thing for payton manning his 81 ints in his first four seasons...which is more than cutlers ..didnt label him a pic machine:coffee:

excuses for jay ? this thread is about orton...who threw 12 picks to jay's 26

TXBRONC
06-22-2010, 04:39 PM
excuses for jay ? this thread is about orton...who threw 12 picks to jay's 26

You continued to bring Cutler into this mess and now you fain allegiance to sticking to the topic. :lol:

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 04:43 PM
You continued to bring Cutler into this mess and now you fain allegiance to sticking to the topic. :lol:

where did i bring cutler into it ?

TXBRONC
06-22-2010, 04:47 PM
Which has nothing to do with what TX and i just stated. Bucky was just as SUCCESSFUL on the inside as he was on the outside. However, Moreno didnt always have that success so i think its safe to say that it wasnt just the OL that had difficulties last year in fact, not nearly as much as some would imply here which is what TX was getting at.

I don't where the idea comes from that Buckhalter didn't run between the tackles that not what happened on the field.

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 04:59 PM
You continued to bring Cutler into this mess and now you fain allegiance to sticking to the topic. :lol:

ahhhhh nice edit i could just as easily go back and change my posts to avoid being caught in a lie:laugh:

but i don't have to

HORSEPOWER 56
06-22-2010, 05:00 PM
12 pages of 170+ posts about a QB that I don't think anyone here (and I consider this group pretty sharp unlike 'mania or the mane) thinks will still be wearing a Bronco uni next year.

1/3 think he's awesome, 1/3 think he sucks, 1/3 realize he's got one more season in Denver and don't think he's worth getting worked up over, anymore. I think I've finally hit my limit of Orton. He's not going to magically lead us to greatness while playing in his last year in Denver as a lame duck QB. It's just not going to happen. He'll either do well enough to keep the starting job all year or he'll get the hook. This season will look probably look a hell of a lot like last year and I've come to grips with it.

TXBRONC
06-22-2010, 05:03 PM
ahhhhh nice edit i could just as easily go back and change my posts to avoid being caught in a lie:laugh:

but i don't have to

Hell you haven't caught me anything little buckaroo. I corrected my post long before your waste of bandwidth responses came along. Nice try.

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 05:08 PM
i hope it looks like last year....well the first 1/2 twice would be nice:beer::D

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 05:12 PM
Hell you haven't caught me anything little buckaroo. I corrected my post long before your waste of bandwidth responses came along. Nice try.

so why did you waste bandwidth with the initial post you had to correct
and by the way it's pretty obvious you dont have the mental capacity to argue your point when you have to resort to terms like "little buckaroo"
bush league my good sir.....bush league:laugh:

Slick
06-22-2010, 05:22 PM
What the **** are you guys arguing about anyways? I can't even follow it.

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 06:04 PM
What the **** are you guys arguing about anyways? I can't even follow it.

the price of tea in china:D

TXBRONC
06-22-2010, 07:56 PM
so why did you waste bandwidth with the initial post you had to correct
and by the way it's pretty obvious you dont have the mental capacity to argue your point when you have to resort to terms like "little buckaroo"
bush league my good sir.....bush league:laugh:

Really I don't run around my house wearing a full replica football uniform. :rofl:

So really to much room for you talk about metal capacity.

Go ahead have the last word.

T.K.O.
06-22-2010, 08:17 PM
Really I don't run around my house wearing a full replica football uniform. :rofl:

So really to much room for you talk about metal capacity.

Go ahead have the last word.

if you are referring to my old sig pic...that was from the offices at invesco....but i have been known to sport bronco gear year round:laugh:
and thanks for the "last word" i deserved it:salute:
i'm a "bronco geek" a fanatical level fan.....i sometimes wonder if the broncos will be mentioned at my eulogy....might be sad....but i also have raised wonderful children and lived an interesting life and i still have my retirement years to go ape crazy !