View Full Version : Dumervil's Contract (EDIT: Speculation about possible contract)
WARHORSE
06-12-2010, 11:59 AM
Patrick Willis got 29 million guaranteed.
Dansby got 22 million guaranteed.
Suggs got 38 million guaranteed.
Where does Doom fit in all this?
If hes looking for 38 million................I dont see it happenin.
Since the total amount of the contracts are bogus anyway, the guaranteed signing bonuses are the real focus.
Where do you see the guaranteed money coming in at for Dooms contract once we sign him?
Im going to say the Broncos sign him around..............32 million guaranteed.
Ravage!!!
06-12-2010, 12:10 PM
Thats a pretty good guess. I didn't think that Marshall would get more than Fitz. So I'm gong to guess closer to Suggs, and say 38.5
Lonestar
06-12-2010, 12:13 PM
I'm hoping they do not give him that kind of money for just having ONE part of three in his game. But what ever they do they do.
Price was the poster child for what not to do in giving a fat contract to.
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TXBRONC
06-12-2010, 12:15 PM
I'll say it's somewhere inbetween, about $35.8 million.
SoCalImport
06-12-2010, 12:36 PM
I'll take whatever falls off the table during negotiations.
Northman
06-12-2010, 12:53 PM
Whatever it takes to keep him. He's the real deal.
BroncoWave
06-12-2010, 01:13 PM
Please change the thread title.
Zweems56
06-12-2010, 01:37 PM
Yeah, thanks for that. This morning (or afternoon) I woke up, looked at that thread title and screamed. I was so happy. Goddamn it war.
Please change the thread title.
I changed the title. It was a BS title as it would make people think Doom signed. Might not have been intentional, but that was the result.
BroncoWave
06-12-2010, 01:41 PM
I changed the title. It was a BS title as it would make people think Doom signed. Might not have been intentional, but that was the result.
I meant the spelling of Dumervil. That just annoys me every time I have to read it.
I meant the spelling of Dumervil. That just annoys me every time I have to read it.
Since his name is spelled about a dozen different ways, I don't even pay attention to that anymore. I was more concerned with the reaction like Zweem had, which is it looking like Doom has been signed, when he wasn't.
I changed the title. It was a BS title as it would make people think Doom signed. Might not have been intentional, but that was the result.
All of his thread titles are misleading. This is about the 4258711237th time...
dogfish
06-12-2010, 03:14 PM
yea, thanks for changing the misleading thread title so i didn't have to change my drawers. . .
Elevation inc
06-12-2010, 03:58 PM
26 mil....this aint a reg year folks......2011 is a huge uncertainty.....aint no player getting 38 mil guarenteed from the broncos.....really dont feel elvis has earned that much.....do belive though the only player who deserves a new contract is doom, nothing would suprise me with this team anymore.....im at a point where nothing really bothers me untill i see results during the season...
BigBroncLove
06-12-2010, 07:23 PM
45 million for five years.
dogfish
06-12-2010, 07:44 PM
26 mil....this aint a reg year folks......2011 is a huge uncertainty.....aint no player getting 38 mil guarenteed from the broncos.....really dont feel elvis has earned that much.....do belive though the only player who deserves a new contract is doom, nothing would suprise me with this team anymore.....im at a point where nothing really bothers me untill i see results during the season...
come on homeboy, chris kuper just got more than 26 mil. . . :lol::lol:
and kupes is my boy, but no way he's getting paid more than doom, or anywhere close. . . you know better!
:laugh:
BigBroncLove
06-12-2010, 08:06 PM
Yeah, Dooms contract won't come close to Kups contract, who's contract IMO was a bargain for the Broncos. It was a solid contract for a guard in the NFL but given his eminence at the position in this year Kup swallowed a team friendly contract which I think speaks more to his character than anything else.
If I had to put an exact number (and I'm usually wrong on this type of crap) I'd say 48.6 million for doom for 5 years. That is not including his tender this year, and any contract Doom receives will be an extension to his tender and not a new contract. I think mostly though, we won't see any contract for Doom until after he signs his tender, which I imagine he will do regardless if only for his own self interest.
Yeah, Dooms contract won't come close to Kups contract, who's contract IMO was a bargain for the Broncos. It was a solid contract for a guard in the NFL but given his eminence at the position in this year Kup swallowed a team friendly contract which I think speaks more to his character than anything else.
Because of the 30% rule, Kuper only had two choices. Sign the team friendly contract or play on a one year contract and hope for a better long term deal next off season.
BigBroncLove
06-12-2010, 08:18 PM
Because of the 30% rule, Kuper only had two choices. Sign the team friendly contract or play on a one year contract and hope for a better long term deal next off season.
The 30% rule only applies to actual salary for the player and the increase in salary on 30% basis per year. Circumventing this is easily done through a massive signing bonus, something Kup could of easily demanded beyond his average signing bonus in comparison to actual contract length, level of play, and contract value. Otherwise I agree. If he wanted more he would of had to wait, and he would of made a lot more money on the actual FA market if there is no lockout, which currently is a much bigger question then I think a lot of us fans want to think about.
Point being though, Kup swallowed far less then he would of otherwise in a normal year, and he did it largely to remain a Bronco. Waiting would of had a degree of uncertainty, but even with a lockout for an entire year, what Kup could of made on the free market after the league finished this CBA nonsense could have been nearly 1/3 more if not twice as much as he chose to take to stay in blue and orange.
The 30% rule only applies to actual salary for the player and the increase in salary on 30% basis per year. Circumventing this is easily done through a massive signing bonus, something Kup could of easily demanded beyond his average signing bonus in comparison to actual contract length, level of play, and contract value. Otherwise I agree. If he wanted more he would of had to wait, and he would of made a lot more money on the actual FA market if there is no lockout, which currently is a much bigger question then I think a lot of us fans want to think about.
Point being though, Kup swallowed far less then he would of otherwise in a normal year, and he did it largely to remain a Bronco. Waiting would of had a degree of uncertainty, but even with a lockout for an entire year, what Kup could of made on the free market after the league finished this CBA nonsense could have been nearly 1/3 more if not twice as much as he chose to take to stay in blue and orange.
The Titans aren't willing to go the "massive signing bonus" on Chris Johnson, the Broncos weren't going to do it for a 'solid' right guard.
dogfish
06-12-2010, 08:37 PM
Yeah, Dooms contract won't come close to Kups contract, who's contract IMO was a bargain for the Broncos. It was a solid contract for a guard in the NFL but given his eminence at the position in this year Kup swallowed a team friendly contract which I think speaks more to his character than anything else.
If I had to put an exact number (and I'm usually wrong on this type of crap) I'd say 48.6 million for doom for 5 years. That is not including his tender this year, and any contract Doom receives will be an extension to his tender and not a new contract. I think mostly though, we won't see any contract for Doom until after he signs his tender, which I imagine he will do regardless if only for his own self interest.
Because of the 30% rule, Kuper only had two choices. Sign the team friendly contract or play on a one year contract and hope for a better long term deal next off season.
which is going to be doom's only choice going forward as well once he signs his tender monday, correct?
if they can find a way to do it still this year (or even next year, if that's how it has to be handled), i think you're probably close, BBL. . . i don't think he should or will sign anything that pays him much below the average of the deal suggs signed-- i know which player i'd rather have, and it's not close. . . i can see around $45-50 million for five years, with maybe 30+ guaranteed. . . they might have to make a portion of the top dollar amount in difficult to reach incentives (all-pro, defensive MVP, etc)-- that's fairly common in big deals. . .
if the broncos won't get pretty close to that range, i don't know that i feel very confident that he'll sign. . . i REALLY hope they can work something out still this year, and quite frankly it doesn't matter that much to me whether one of them blinks or they reach a mutually-acceptable compromise. . .
given the potential leverage of the franchise tag, plus the 30% rule and a possible work stoppage next year, i do hope it doesn't result in a situation where he accepts a significantly lowball offer as the "lesser of two evils"-- not even so much for his sake, although i think he deserves top market value as much as anyone in the league due to his character and work ethic, but more so because i'd rather not see that type of move generate resentment in the locker room. . .
after cutler and marshall had to get traded off to get paid, i really do think signing doom to a solid deal reinforces the message the FO and coaching staff are trying to send about teamwork and professionalism far more effectively than any amount of speeches and lectures. . . money talks, and i'd prefer we not set too much of a precedent for "you need to go somewhere else to get paid". . .
fiscal responsbility is great, but cheapness is not a good way to build a winning organization. . . i don't object to the new england model if it's executed properly, but even they pay some guys. . . and quite frankly we're not at a point where we have the depth or the established winning culture to copy NE exactly. . . we're a different franchise with a different situation, and while the overall model may be sound, it's not reasonable to think that it won't require some tweaks to make it work right in a new setting. . .
the pats have had a core of guys like matt light, dan koppen, logan mankins, vince wilfork, ty warren, and of course tom brady, that they've built around for years now. . . and seymour up until recently-- now merriweather and mayo can be added to the list. . .
we need to lock up a few building block types. . . kuper is a fine start, and my choices for the rest would center around doom and clady. . . i'm iffy on ryan harris-- it would have to start with him staying healthy this entire year. . . eddie royal also needs to return to form, but i'm still confident that he can be one of those guys. . . mcbath, moreno, ayers, walton, beadles, decker, thomas and tebow all have a chance to be added if they can step up in the next year or two. . .
but a top edge rusher and left tackle are probably two of the three positions you ideally want to start with-- if tim can be the QB, we've set a pretty good foundation. . . keeping those two or three is key, IMO. . . even if we have to "overpay" a little for doom or clady, i'd call it worth it. . . those two guys are basically our top two young talents-- losing either of them sets us back significantly, as far as i'm concerned. . .
and i can't wait to see certain people turn on clady when it comes times for him to get paid. . . :tsk:
BigBroncLove
06-12-2010, 08:45 PM
The Titans aren't willing to go the "massive signing bonus" on Chris Johnson, the Broncos weren't going to do it for a 'solid' right guard.
Doesn't change the fair market value for Kup in a non-negotiation year. Even if the Broncos wouldn't throw in the extra contract signing bonus, which I agree they wouldn't, (who would really?) all Kup had to do was wait. If he hadn't prescribed to a more team friendly outlook he could of just as easily avoided an extension, played on his tender, and gone to FA when ti came around. Either in 2011 or 2012. Needless to say whenever it would of happened he would of gotten much much more than what he received in his current contract.
Doesn't change the fair market value for Kup in a non-negotiation year. Even if the Broncos wouldn't throw in the extra contract signing bonus, which I agree they wouldn't, (who would really?) all Kup had to do was wait. If he hadn't prescribed to a more team friendly outlook he could of just as easily avoided an extension, played on his tender, and gone to FA when ti came around. Either in 2011 or 2012. Needless to say whenever it would of happened he would of gotten much much more than what he received in his current contract.
I'm not criticizing Kuper. I like him and am glad he signed. He had a choice. A modest contract, which is still a LOT of money and a lot of guaranteed money in case of an injury, or playing on a one year deal and rolling the dice. There is no guarantee that even without the 30% rule that Kuper would have gotten a significantly larger contract. He and Dumervil aren't in the same league in terms of contracts.
One of the big differences between Kuper and Doom, is that Doom will command big, big dollars on the FA market. Meaning if the Broncos low ball him, or screw him (reduce his tender to 10% over last year), then they will destroy the relationship and make it almost impossible to sign him to a long term deal. They might keep him wrapped up for a few years with franchise tags and such, but that's not the ideal way to wrap up a player.
dogfish
06-12-2010, 08:58 PM
The Titans aren't willing to go the "massive signing bonus" on Chris Johnson, the Broncos weren't going to do it for a 'solid' right guard.
hey man, that's "quality" right guard!
:protest:
BigBroncLove
06-12-2010, 09:02 PM
I'm not criticizing Kuper. I like him and am glad he signed. He had a choice. A modest contract, which is still a LOT of money and a lot of guaranteed money in case of an injury, or playing on a one year deal and rolling the dice. There is no guarantee that even without the 30% rule that Kuper would have gotten a significantly larger contract. He and Dumervil aren't in the same league in terms of contracts.
One of the big differences between Kuper and Doom, is that Doom will command big, big dollars on the FA market. Meaning if the Broncos low ball him, or screw him (reduce his tender to 10% over last year), then they will destroy the relationship and make it almost impossible to sign him to a long term deal. They might keep him wrapped up for a few years with franchise tags and such, but that's not the ideal way to wrap up a player.
Oh, I know Tned. I didn't mean to come off as contradictory or picking a fight. I know you're just pointing out the realities of this negotiation year. I'm just trying to point out the similar possibilities/realities in players waiting out this year and what I perceive as Kupers pro team decision. I think all of us know from talking with Kups dad from time to time in the past on the forums that he comes from a grounded upbringing so I don't see a greedy nature in contract discussion being at the forefront of his decisions.
I agree 100% with your outlook on Doom and contract negotiations. I've said it a lot but if the Broncos don't make good on their promises of team first mentality and rewarding it, they are begging for players to take a me first approach when it comes to contracts and the FA market. If the Broncos want to retain players with contracts at good value, and have players who want to stick with this organization, they have to show certain conduct and level of play will be met with an equal degree of confidence in those players by the Broncos FO. So far, beyond Kups recent contract which can be argued was good for both sides, the Broncos haven't shown they will stand behind and reward players that have proven themselves in the locker room and on the field.
Elevation inc
06-13-2010, 05:06 AM
come on homeboy, chris kuper just got more than 26 mil. . . :lol::lol:
and kupes is my boy, but no way he's getting paid more than doom, or anywhere close. . . you know better!
:laugh:
i meant 26 mil guarenteed....
the OP asked how much guarenteed money doom will likely get my answer was 26 mil....
Elevation inc
06-13-2010, 05:11 AM
The 30% rule only applies to actual salary for the player and the increase in salary on 30% basis per year. Circumventing this is easily done through a massive signing bonus, something Kup could of easily demanded beyond his average signing bonus in comparison to actual contract length, level of play, and contract value. Otherwise I agree. If he wanted more he would of had to wait, and he would of made a lot more money on the actual FA market if there is no lockout, which currently is a much bigger question then I think a lot of us fans want to think about.
Point being though, Kup swallowed far less then he would of otherwise in a normal year, and he did it largely to remain a Bronco. Waiting would of had a degree of uncertainty, but even with a lockout for an entire year, what Kup could of made on the free market after the league finished this CBA nonsense could have been nearly 1/3 more if not twice as much as he chose to take to stay in blue and orange.
wonder why kupe would do that to play for such a horrible players coach who lets all of shanny's guys go(oh wait kupe was a shanny guy weird...lol)....i mean why play for a coach for cheaper than you would get next year as a FA if he was so bad...and denver was gonna suck..you would think it would be let me do this year and bounce to a good team....:lol:
i think quite a few players are stoked to be in denver much more than the haters want to admit....
Lonestar
06-13-2010, 12:30 PM
wonder why kupe would do that to play for such a horrible players coach whop lets all of shanny's guys go(oh wait kupe was a shanny guy weird...lol)....i mean why play for a coach for cheaper than you would get next year as a FA if he was so bad...and denver was gonna suck..you would think it would be let me do this year and bounce to a good team....:lol:
i think quite a few players are stoked to be in denver much more than the haters want to admit....
Wait a minute players like playing for Josh?
How could that possibly be true?
Great logical post there.
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wonder why kupe would do that to play for such a horrible players coach whop lets all of shanny's guys go(oh wait kupe was a shanny guy weird...lol)....i mean why play for a coach for cheaper than you would get next year as a FA if he was so bad...and denver was gonna suck..you would think it would be let me do this year and bounce to a good team....:lol:
i think quite a few players are stoked to be in denver much more than the haters want to admit....
First, it is not clear how much more Kuper would get on the FA market.
Second, since he likely wouldn't see a huge difference on the FA market, by signing a free agent contract now, he is guaranteed many millions of dollars.
Every player at some point has to weigh signing a long term contract, which provides security, vs. rolling the dice in the free agent market, hoping that injury or a bad year doesn't result in less, not more, once he becomes a free agent.
As I have said, I think Kuper should be commended for signing a reasonable contract, and not holding out or playing on his one year tender and hitting the FA market next year. However, let's be clear that he benefited greatly by signing that contract.
Elevation inc
06-13-2010, 01:15 PM
First, it is not clear how much more Kuper would get on the FA market.
Second, since he likely wouldn't see a huge difference on the FA market, by signing a free agent contract now, he is guaranteed many millions of dollars.
Every player at some point has to weigh signing a long term contract, which provides security, vs. rolling the dice in the free agent market, hoping that injury or a bad year doesn't result in less, not more, once he becomes a free agent.
As I have said, I think Kuper should be commended for signing a reasonable contract, and not holding out or playing on his one year tender and hitting the FA market next year. However, let's be clear that he benefited greatly by signing that contract.
thats kinda my point in a round about way.....he knew it was a good deal and that denver is a good place and team to play for...despite what naysayers say about how MCD treats his players....
he was smart, and im glad he stayed with us, because im almost certain he would have gotten alot more next year as a FA.....
thats kinda my point in a round about way.....he knew it was a good deal and that denver is a good place and team to play for...despite what naysayers say about how MCD treats his players....
he was smart, and im glad he stayed with us, because im almost certain he would have gotten alot more next year as a FA.....
I haven't paid attention to what solid right guards are getting, so I don't know. Maybe it would have been a lot more, maybe a little more, maybe about the same.
Unlike Kuper, Dumervil is in line to get one of the higher paid contracts in the NFL for his position. If Dumervil hits the FA market, with the number of sacks he has put in the stat column, he will be in line for BIG dollars, and even more so if he has another 10+ sack season this year.
While I'm glad we locked Kuper up, because he along with the Ryan's form a great nucleus for the O-line, his and Dumervil's contract situation are simply worlds apart.
BigBroncLove
06-13-2010, 01:32 PM
I haven't paid attention to what solid right guards are getting, so I don't know. Maybe it would have been a lot more, maybe a little more, maybe about the same.
Unlike Kuper, Dumervil is in line to get one of the higher paid contracts in the NFL for his position. If Dumervil hits the FA market, with the number of sacks he has put in the stat column, he will be in line for BIG dollars, and even more so if he has another 10+ sack season this year.
While I'm glad we locked Kuper up, because he along with the Ryan's form a great nucleus for the O-line, his and Dumervil's contract situation are simply worlds apart.
Well for Example, Jahri Evans of the NO Saints was paid 56 million for seven years just recently for a guard position. I think Kuper is very close to his level of play. That's 8 million average per year compared to Kups near 5 mil average.
Elevation inc
06-13-2010, 01:33 PM
I haven't paid attention to what solid right guards are getting, so I don't know. Maybe it would have been a lot more, maybe a little more, maybe about the same.
Unlike Kuper, Dumervil is in line to get one of the higher paid contracts in the NFL for his position. If Dumervil hits the FA market, with the number of sacks he has put in the stat column, he will be in line for BIG dollars, and even more so if he has another 10+ sack season this year.
While I'm glad we locked Kuper up, because he along with the Ryan's form a great nucleus for the O-line, his and Dumervil's contract situation are simply worlds apart.
contract wise yes your right mine OP was a more satirical post about players playing for shanny vs MCD, a instigation i guess...lol:lol::beer:
contract wise yes your right mine OP was a more satirical post about players playing for shanny vs MCD, a instigation i guess...lol:lol::beer:
Sorry, unlike some, I'm not stuck in the Shanny years, but am focused on now. Didn't mean to stomp all over that bait. :-)
Lonestar
06-13-2010, 01:57 PM
thats kinda my point in a round about way.....he knew it was a good deal and that denver is a good place and team to play for...despite what naysayers say about how MCD treats his players....
he was smart, and im glad he stayed with us, because im almost certain he would have gotten alot more next year as a FA.....
Unless I missed something he was a free agent albeit a RFA he tested the market place and found few if any takers.
He figured out his worth and decided that he was happy with DEN offer as it most likely was as good or better than he could have gotten elsewhere.
It also sounds like he like playing for Josh.
turftoad
06-13-2010, 02:04 PM
Unless I missed something he was a free agent albeit a RFA he tested the market place and found few if any takers.
He figured out his worth and decided that he was happy with DEN offer as it most likely was as good or better than he could have gotten elsewhere.
It also sounds like he like playing for Josh.
Hardly any players that get tendered with a 1st and 3rd round compensation switch teams.
Not many teams are going to give up those picks along with a large contract. Doom is no different.
So...... he did not test the market. He was restricted. If he was a full FA, he would have brought a lot more attention and bigger $$.
Lonestar
06-13-2010, 02:07 PM
Hardly any players that get tendered with a 1st and 3rd round compensation switch teams.
Not many teams are going to give up those picks along with a large contract. Doom is no different.
So...... he did not test the market. He was restricted. If he was a full FA, he would have brought a lot more attention and bigger $$.
he was not tendered as 1st and 3rd just a first.
BigBroncLove
06-13-2010, 02:19 PM
he was not tendered as 1st and 3rd just a first.
Regardless, there is a big difference between paying a player big money and giving up a first, then just pursuing them in the FA market. Also given the value most clubs put on first round draft picks or any draft picks this year in a deep deep draft, and the overall lack of pursuit of players in RFA this year on a whole, one could hardly say Kuper was able to properly test the market for his real value.
Lonestar
06-13-2010, 02:33 PM
Regardless, there is a big difference between paying a player big money and giving up a first, then just pursuing them in the FA market. Also given the value most clubs put on first round draft picks or any draft picks this year in a deep deep draft, and the overall lack of pursuit of players in RFA this year on a whole, one could hardly say Kuper was able to properly test the market for his real value.
Now this is not known for sure you cab bet your paycheck his agent called everyone to see what if ant interest there was for him. And frankly if there was any who wiuld not give up a first round pick and decenyt contract for a supposedly elite veteran OG over a rookie OG.
The facts are they did not and the odds are had he been an UFA his contract wiuld not have been a lot higher than he got.
I'm not saying he would not have gotten more and for all we know he was offered more from a shank team. Something we flat do not know.
So let's not pretend to know what deals we're or were not offerred to our RFA Kuper.
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BigBroncLove
06-13-2010, 02:34 PM
Now this is not known for sure you cab bet your paycheck his agent called everyone to see what if ant interest there was for him. And frankly if there was any who wiuld not give up a first round pick and decenyt contract for a supposedly elite veteran OG over a rookie OG.
The facts are they did not and the odds are had he been an UFA his contract wiuld not have been a lot higher than he got.
I'm not saying he would not have gotten more and for all we know he was offered more from a shank team. Something we flat do not know.
So let's not pretend to know what deals we're or were not offerred to our RFA Kuper.
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Lets also not pretend that RFA's and FA's are the same thing and garner the same interest by potential suitors.
Lonestar
06-13-2010, 02:35 PM
That said I will not comment more about Kuper in a Doom thread it is time :focus:
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