PAts Cheating

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3012989

Sources: Camera confiscated after claims of Pats spying on Jets

By Chris Mortensen
ESPN.com

Updated: September 10, 2007, 4:17 PM ET

Did Patriots Cheat in Win Over Jets?

NFL security confiscated a video camera and its tape from a New England Patriots employee on the team's sideline during Sunday's game against the Jets in a suspected spying incident, sources said.

The camera and its tape were placed in a sealed box and forwarded to the league office for investigation, the sources said.

"We don't have any comment," an NFL spokesman said Monday.

The Patriots' cameraman was suspected of aiming his camera at the Jets' defensive coaches who were sending signals to their unit on the field, the sources said. The league also is investigating some radio frequency issues that occurred during the game.

The league's competition committee could conduct a conference call about the incident, which violates NFL policy, and ultimately recommend a penalty that could cost the Patriots a future draft pick or picks if it verifies that the team was spying on the Jets.

"It's not their first time," a member of the committee, who did not wish to be identified, said.

In fact, Green Bay Packers president Bob Harlan confirmed a similar incident that occurred when the Patriots played at Lambeau Field last Nov. 19. The same cameraman who was questioned by NFL security on Sunday was also the one whom the Packers removed from the sideline and escorted from the field during their 2006 game, according to Packers security official Doug Collins.

"From what I can remember, he had quite a fit when we took him out," Harlan said. "We had gotten word before the game that they [the Patriots] did this sort of thing, so we were looking for it."

A Jets official declined comment Monday, directing an inquiry to the league office. The Patriots also did not have immediate comment.

Chris Mortensen covers the NFL for ESPN.
ESPN Conversation

[SmithOverTO]

I wonder if there are any consquences that goes along with this?

[Retired_Member_001]

I wonder if there are any consquences that goes along with this?

The Patriots should be fined and the Jets game should count as a loss.

Of course the NFL wouldn't count the game as a loss because it would screw up the stats.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

According to the article, it sounds like this is NOT the first time the Patriots have done this.

[Retired_Member_001]

According to the article, it sounds like this is NOT the first time the Patriots have done this.

Because the NFL doesn't have a point system and it goes by Win/Loss there's nothing you can do that would actually affect them in terms of their season record.

At most it will be a small fine.

[topscribe]

If it can be proven they were spying, the Patriots should be forced to forfeit the game . . .

AND perhaps lose their first-rounder in the next draft.

-----

[Slick]

Possible draft penalties is what I heard. If the Green Bay situation from last year is true, I'd be surprised if the NFL just brushes this off.


That's busch league IMO.

[WTE]

At most it will be a small fine.

Or absolutely nothing could come from it. Just like nothing happened when the Patriots charged the Jets w/ tampering during the Deion Branch negotiations last year.

[Medford Bronco]

My :2cents: as we all know how much I love the Pats lol

There is no way that the Pats were going to lose to that pathetic Jets team
whos fans cheered when Pennington got hurt. Brady had time to make eggs, grab a coffee, cook his toast and then throw to Randy Moss etc.

They have already won that pathetic division they are in. They will win by 4 games, mark my words. The Jets were their competion. :laugh:

so a couple of spying plays, big whopdy do. Maybe the Jets could you know get a pass rush so Brady does not have to wash his uniform for next weeks game. He only hit the ground when scrambling for a run. \

as a side note the Jets fans showed ZERO class cheering when Pennington was hurt.
Like Kelly Clemens was going to help htem. Heck Roger Clemens could not help them either

[Krugan]

According to Mortenson the Pats could lose a draft pick or picks.

Serves them right, seems the had an issue with this in Green Bay as well.

The same camera guy removed from the field, odd me thinks.

Seems this little "*" is gonna become common place.

[RunYouOver]

Or absolutely nothing could come from it. Just like nothing happened when the Patriots charged the Jets w/ tampering during the Deion Branch negotiations last year.

Nah.

A, or some draft picks will certainly be lost.
:cool:

[topscribe]

Or absolutely nothing could come from it. Just like nothing happened when the Patriots charged the Jets w/ tampering during the Deion Branch negotiations last year.
I don't blame you . . .

That's what I would be hoping, too, were the Patriots http://forums.denverbroncos.com/images/smilies/th_sick.gif my team.

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[Az Snake]

If it can be proven they were spying, the Patriots should be forced to forfeit the game . . .

AND perhaps lose their first-rounder in the next draft.

-----



--- LOL !!!

--- This reminds me of the old stories about the spy in the center field bleachers with the binoculars watching the catcher's hand signals to the pitcher !!!

--- Look, I can't stand Bradywuss and the patsies, but they tore the Jets apart. Moss was SCARY !!!




.

[Krugan]

Just want to add, we all know teams are trying to steal signals, have been for years.

Use of video to do so, is over the top, and should be handed a pretty severe punishment if it is legit.

[TXBRONC]

This isn't the first complaint that has leveled against the Pop tarts concerning spying on their opponents. So much for them being a class organization.

[omac]

According to Mortenson the Pats could lose a draft pick or picks.

Doesn't matter if they lose draft picks; the NFL loves the Pats, and they'll somehow get compensatory picks. The Pats winning the Superbowl is good for the NFL, just like Chicago with Jordan winning the NBA Finals was good for the NBA, and they adjusted their contact rules to protect him, and even adjusted the palming/travelling rule to alow for the way Jordan dribbles the ball. Ofcourse, after Jordan retired, the put the rule back. :D

I don't see anything wrong with spying during game day. Real espionage, like getting a copy of the playbook, or somehow being able to watch confidential practices, now that's something else.

[DenBronx]

I used to think this organization was pretty classy but after they mocked the Chargers last year and now this im beggining to have a differant opinion. Now I don't think the players had any involvement but im pretty sure Belichick knew about this.

To me this should not be taken lightly. I equate this with someone cheating at poker in a vegas casino and winning lots of money. The Pats should lose more than just a first round pick next year. I wouldnt let them pick until the 2nd day if I were Godell.

Thoughts???


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3014677

Sources: Goodell determines Pats broke rules by taping Jets' signals
By Chris Mortensen
ESPN
(Archive)
Updated: September 11, 2007, 8:46 PM ET
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NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has determined that the New England Patriots violated league rules Sunday when they videotaped defensive signals by the New York Jets' coaches, according to league sources.



NFL security officials confiscated a camera and videotape from Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella on the New England sidelines when it was suspected he was recording the Jets' defensive signals. Sources say the visual evidence confirmed the suspicion.



Goodell is considering severe sanctions, including the possibility of docking the Patriots "multiple draft picks" because it is the competitive violation in the wake of a stern warning to all teams since he became commissioner, the sources said. The Patriots have been suspected in previous incidents.



The Patriots will be allowed an opportunity to present their case by Friday, sources said, most likely via the telephone.



NFL spokesman Greg Aiello said on Tuesday that no official decision has been made and that the club has not been notified.



The league also was reviewing a possible violation into the number of radio frequencies the Patriots were using during Sunday's game, sources said. The team did not have a satisfactory explanation when asked about possible irregularities in its communication setup during the game.



Goodell is expected to have a decision no later than Friday but that is not set in stone.



Chris Mortensen covers the NFL for ESPN.

[topscribe]

As I mentioned, the Patriots should lose their first-rounder next year and forfeit that game.

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[DenBronx]

As I mentioned, the Patriots should lose their first-rounder next year and forfeit that game.

-----

well, i agree but that will never happen in the nfl. should the chargers forfeit all their games last year for merriman being on steriods? should the jets get a win? really i think the pats would have won anyway....for crying out loud, they have tom freakin brady and randy freakin moss. who needs to cheat when your that far ahead?

goodell has really no other way to penalize the pats but to hurt their future and pocket book.

[dogfish]

well, i agree but that will never happen in the nfl. should the chargers forfeit all their games last year for merriman being on steriods? should the jets get a win? really i think the pats would have won anyway....for crying out loud, they have tom freakin brady and randy freakin moss. who needs to cheat when your that far ahead?

goodell has really no other way to penalize the pats but to hurt their future and pocket book.

they should be forced to re-sign monty beisel and reche caldwell. . . . :laugh:



:pound:

[SmithOverTO]

they should be forced to re-sign monty beisel and reche caldwell. . . . :laugh:



:pound:

No, they should be forced to start their practice squad players for the next game against the Jets. :laugh:

[DenBronx]

No, they should be forced to start their practice squad players for the next game against the Jets. :laugh:

from a fans perspective that would be great....and why not conveniently have them do that when they face us in the playoffs? :laugh:


would you guys thinks less of shanny if he had orchastraited that? im pretty sure you would. the thing about patriot fans is they are such homers they will just make excuses or say it was an accident from the camera guy.

[WTE]

they should be forced to re-sign monty beisel and reche caldwell. . . . :laugh:



:pound:


Good. At least you didn't mention Chad Brown or Hank Poteat. :wave:

[Rick]

It is pretty sad after their storied start to that dynasty that they had, that they have to resort to such measures.

Have they become so desperate to regain the perch that they are willing to cheat to do so?

As another poster mentioned earlier in this thread, they really don't need to cheat to win. I won't jump on the bandwagon and say they are going to a superbowl but they certainly are playoff bound and will make a strong case for a superbowl.

They don't need to pull this crap.

[DenBronx]

It is pretty sad after their storied start to that dynasty that they had, that they have to resort to such measures.

Have they become so desperate to regain the perch that they are willing to cheat to do so?

As another poster mentioned earlier in this thread, they really don't need to cheat to win. I won't jump on the bandwagon and say they are going to a superbowl but they certainly are playoff bound and will make a strong case for a superbowl.

They don't need to pull this crap.

Exactlly....its like robbing Bank of America for 200k then stopping at Circle K on your way out of town only to get $353.72

[Cleveland Rocks]

Anything short of having that game stricken from the record books isn't the right decision.

That game should be stricken from the record books and the Jets and Patriots should be 0-0. Then, later in the season they play again to make up for the game.

[DenBronx]

Anything short of having that game stricken from the record books isn't the right decision.

That game should be stricken from the record books and the Jets and Patriots should be 0-0. Then, later in the season they play again to make up for the game.

i would love to see that happen....really i would because it would beat the pats up a little more before they head into the playoffs. but the jets would contest that im pretty sure if there going to be out of the playoffs....why would they want to play a random game after going a long season only to make it not count?

[TXBRONC]

As I mentioned, the Patriots should lose their first-rounder next year and forfeit that game.

-----


Tact on a large fine to boot. The Patriots are top contender to win it all and they have to stoop to this? Oh also and Billy boy ought be suspended for at least four games.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

They have two first-rounders, so it's not like it's going to hurt them. . . oh wait.

[TXBRONC]

Or absolutely nothing could come from it. Just like nothing happened when the Patriots charged the Jets w/ tampering during the Deion Branch negotiations last year.


Getting nervous Troll or embarrassed or both?

[dogfish]

Good. At least you didn't mention Chad Brown or Hank Poteat. :wave:

i was tempted to go with duane starks, but it's not like they killed anyone. . .

[TXBRONC]

i was tempted to go with duane starks, but it's not like they killed anyone. . .



As part of discipline action that will be taken against the Pasties I think they ought make BB was that rag he calls a sweatshirt.

[DenBronx]

They have two first-rounders, so it's not like it's going to hurt them. . . oh wait.

then take both

[The Horses Mouth]

This needs to be taken VERY serious for the NFL's sake. I hope they are harsh, swift and without doubt in exacting some serious damage to them.

[omac]

It is pretty sad after their storied start to that dynasty that they had, that they have to resort to such measures.

Have they become so desperate to regain the perch that they are willing to cheat to do so?

As another poster mentioned earlier in this thread, they really don't need to cheat to win. I won't jump on the bandwagon and say they are going to a superbowl but they certainly are playoff bound and will make a strong case for a superbowl.

They don't need to pull this crap.

Who's to say that they weren't doing this from the start to gain a competitive advantage? During game day, though, I don't think it's wrong at all. I'm just glad our Shanny covers his mouth every time he calls plays ... genius indeed. Could that be the reason we have so much success against the Pats? j/k :D

[arapaho2]

Doesn't matter if they lose draft picks; the NFL loves the Pats, and they'll somehow get compensatory picks. The Pats winning the Superbowl is good for the NFL, just like Chicago with Jordan winning the NBA Finals was good for the NBA, and they adjusted their contact rules to protect him, and even adjusted the palming/travelling rule to alow for the way Jordan dribbles the ball. Ofcourse, after Jordan retired, the put the rule back. :D

I don't see anything wrong with spying during game day. Real espionage, like getting a copy of the playbook, or somehow being able to watch confidential practices, now that's something else.

you dont see nothing wrong with a guy filming the opposing team, and relaying messages to the patsie coaches on what they are doing?...by any definition that is cheating

[omac]

you dont see nothing wrong with a guy filming the opposing team, and relaying messages to the patsie coaches on what they are doing?...by any definition that is cheating

During the game, no, nothing wrong. Some coaches even expect it, and are prepared for it.

[Retired_Member_001]

During the game, no, nothing wrong. Some coaches even expect it, and are prepared for it.

^ Hacked by WTE :nod: .

[TXBRONC]

During the game, no, nothing wrong. Some coaches even expect it, and are prepared for it.


No they don't Omac, no according what Stink said on NFL Live. There are things on the field that players expect not sign stealing so that the offense knows what's coming.

[TXBRONC]

^ Hacked by WTE :nod: .

Hey Wookiee I love the cartoon sig. :laugh:

[NameUsedBefore]

Let's play "Who Doesn't Belong?"

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1678/jetspats117je9.jpg

[Lonestar]

No, they should be forced to start their practice squad players for the next game against the Jets. :laugh:

They would still win

[Watchthemiddle]

Let's play "Who Doesn't Belong?"

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1678/jetspats117je9.jpg

Ha ha ha....everyone is taping or watching the field except that camera guy in black.

Funny stuff!

I think they should have to forfeit. Maybe they made the Jets look that bad because they knew what was coming.

[broncosfanscott]

While I think the Pats would have won regardless, it is still cheating and their record should now be 0-1 with their 2008 first round pick going to the Jets. The way Goodell has come down on players this year, you know he is going to come down hard of this.

[Slick]

Who's to say that they weren't doing this from the start to gain a competitive advantage? During game day, though, I don't think it's wrong at all. I'm just glad our Shanny covers his mouth every time he calls plays ... genius indeed. Could that be the reason we have so much success against the Pats? j/k :D

I think you missed this. They were stealing defensive signals. Mangini is a bellyache disciple. He might have better insight as to what Mangini is doing.

During game day, you don't think it's wrong at all? :confused:

[Day1BroncoFan]

Cheaters never win. Winners never cheat.

[tireman357]

For years brady has been the baby boy of the NFL. You can't say anything bad against him, his team or you will get flamed by the media..Now they are busted for what I have always thought they were doing. CHEATERING. I thought to my self and said self there going to go down now. Then you get this guy, that some how takes the lieing, cheating, filthy pig sucking jerks that they are and Oh don't blame them everybody does it. What are your views on this.



"The National Football League's greatest rogue philosopher offered the most succinct and enduring mission statement about the league and the game of football.

"Just win, baby," Oakland Raiders managing partner Al Davis always says, cutting to the chase like no one else.

There is no honor in the NFL. This is our most violent game, a cut-throat, all-out, win-at-all-costs sport where cheating – be it holding on the line, bumping in the secondary, or injecting a drug in the corner of a weight room – is, if not applauded, at the very least accepted.

Each sport has a culture and what people raise hell about in baseball, golf or basketball is mostly shrugged off in the NFL. That this is far and away our most popular sporting pursuit – the new national pastime – says as much about America as it does about the league's morals.

ADVERTISEMENT
So what to make of the NFL's present-day coaching deity, Bill Belichick, the one who has won three of the last six Super Bowls but now is embroiled in a cheating scandal?

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell has "determined" that a New England Patriots employee videotaped the New York Jets defensive signals in a 38-14 victory Sunday, according to ESPN. The commissioner awaits the Pats' defense later this week.

So is Belichick the greatest Machiavellian mind in this ruthless game, one who just happened to get caught this time? Or is he just a lout and a cheat?

Is he an NFL problem or is he the NFL; a byproduct of a business where a coach that doesn't seek every last advantage is doomed to fail, like an honest politician?

"I think the Patriots actually live by the saying, 'If you're not cheating, you're not trying,' " said San Diego Chargers running back LaDainian Tomlinson.

Here's the thing with Belichick: this charge fits perfectly with everything we know about him on and off the field. He's no angel, a lifetime of drama that ranged from backing out of contracts, feuding with mentors (Bill Parcells) and protégés (Eric Mangini) alike and even giving the tabloids plenty of fodder for his, ah, extracurricular behavior, if you will.

But it also fits with everything we know about the NFL. Don't coaches hide their mouths when they speak, use multiple sideline signalers and guard playbooks with their lives? Wouldn't they sell their soul to know what an opponent is thinking?

"Really, it's nothing new," said Pittsburgh Steelers coach Mike Tomlin about signal stealing. "When you see offensive coordinators covering their mouth – and that's been going on a long time – that's one of the reasons why that's done.

"You hear rumors of things of that nature," Tomlin said, noting it often comes from the "New England family." "In terms of confirming it, it's never been confirmed in any instance to my knowledge. But usually where there is smoke, there's fire. Those rumors are founded on something. So it's not totally shocking, no."

Not shocking, perhaps. But embarrassing? Absolutely. The Green Bay Packers claim they caught a Patriots employee videotaping their signals a year ago and complained to the NFL.

If New England's defense is as feeble as expected, then the franchise should be punished. The rules are the rules, no matter how often they are broken; no matter the base culture.

Goodell should take a draft pick or even suspend Belichick, who's iron-fisted leadership means no employee would dare try this without his knowledge. Stealing signals via the human eye is one thing. Having an employee use a video camera speaks to an operation that is both brazen and premeditated.

It also shows the depths these coaches will go for a competitive edge. When properly executed, the advantage would be considerable. But in this instance, the risk/reward variable seems painfully small since the Patriots are more than capable of whippin' the Jets all on their own.

Perhaps that's just football. Whether Belichick is actually worse (or better) than any other coach in the league is difficult to determine. All of these coaches are nuts. To be an NFL coach is to work endless 100-hour weeks, sleep in your office and go bleary-eyed looking for the slightest flaw in an opponents’ Tampa 2. Then you wind up losing because a kicker goes wide right.

They sacrifice everything in their lives in pursuit of victories. The casualties are easy to see: health, marriage, children, sanity. It's why NFL football coaches, despite being multimillionaires, are perhaps the single most miserable group of people you'll ever know.

If you are willing to virtually abandon your wife and kids to win a game, what won't you do?

The NFL isn't alone here. Cheating is everywhere. And it can be confusing, each sport has a different culture. In golf, you can't improve your lie an inch, yet in soccer flopping is considered a skill. In baseball, cheating pitchers are colorful but corked-bat hitters are condemned. In NASCAR, a crew chief that isn't pushing the legal limits of engineering isn't doing his job. College sports is often hailed for its "purity," yet illegal recruiting is so prevalent former UNLV coach Jerry Tarkanian once surmised, "Nine out of 10 teams are cheating, the other is in last place."

So why expect anything less in the NFL? Fans want victories and nothing else. There are no illusions of purity here. They'll gladly cheer for players who can range from miscreant to felon. The players themselves will vote peers who have been busted taking performance enhancing drugs into the Pro Bowl.

Nobody cares. Nothing matters. If you're not cheating, you're not trying. Just win, baby.

That's the NFL. And that is the world that would lead someone such as Bill Belichick, someone with so much to lose, to insanely risk his reputation on the long shot that a small advantage might provide just one more victory he probably would have gotten anyway.

Dan Wetzel is Yahoo! Sports' national columnist. Send Dan a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.

[HighPlainsBronc]

As I mentioned, the Patriots should lose their first-rounder next year and forfeit that game.

-----

Actually, they should be penalized like college teams and be banned from post season play. Give 'em their W/L record and maybe take away a draft pick but ban 'em from post season.

That just might get their (and everyone elses) attention. Cheating is not to be tolorated!

[Retired_Member_001]

Hey Wookiee I love the cartoon sig. :laugh:

Thanks. :cool:

[Watchthemiddle]

So Harrison got suspended for 4 games for cheating....Patriot.

Hoodie should get suspended for 4 games also. If not, I like the idea of losing draft picks, forfeiting the game, or being banned from post season.

I think the Commisioner is either going to come down hard, or be intimidated by the Patriots and give in to a lesser punishment.

If a player cheats he gets suspended for games. The head coach should now get suspended for cheating.

A fine will not be the answer. Owners have more money then God. $50,000 or whatever the fine will be is not enough.

[dogfish]

So Harrison got suspended for 4 games for cheating....Patriot.

Hoodie should get suspended for 4 games also. If not, I like the idea of losing draft picks, forfeiting the game, or being banned from post season.

I think the Commisioner is either going to come down hard, or be intimidated by the Patriots and give in to a lesser punishment.

If a player cheats he gets suspended for games. The head coach should now get suspended for cheating.

A fine will not be the answer. Owners have more money then God. $50,000 or whatever the fine will be is not enough.

somehow i get the feeling that goodell isn't easily intimidated. . . . :boxing:

[Watchthemiddle]

somehow i get the feeling that goodell isn't easily intimidated. . . . :boxing:

I hope you are right...and come to think of it, he doesn't seem to get intimidated. Star player, scrub player, star franchise...he needs to suspend and has suspended them all.

[RunYouOver]

I'm glad they were caught, and I'm glad Bellicheck looked like an idiot at his press conference.

I hope they lose their first, next year's second, and the year after's third.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I'm glad they were caught, and I'm glad Bellicheck looked like an idiot at his press conference.

I hope they lose their first, next year's second, and the year after's third.

I would love to see them lose draft picks, but there is also a possibility that they have traded draft picks away, which might not make that possible.

[Lonestar]

I would love to see them lose draft picks, but there is also a possibility that they have traded draft picks away, which might not make that possible.

The they lose the ones they have this year and next it is quite simple. Also the league could nullify the trades. Especially the OAK one.

[omac]

Like I said before, I believe teams do it, and some coaches are even prepared for it.

Check out BaileytheBest's thread here, with a link to an article ....

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1500

[broncosfanscott]

I'm glad they were caught, and I'm glad Bellicheck looked like an idiot at his press conference.
I hope they lose their first, next year's second, and the year after's third.


I lost some respect for Belicheat for getting caught and I lost even more for his lame and pathetic press conference. I mean all he said was that he was concentrating on the Chargers......well no :censored:. I mean can't he be man enough to admit it and at least answer some of the questions because if he is just going to stand there and be an idiot than why have a conference at all.