Don't sweat Tebow's technique

[broncobryce]

Not sure if it's okay to post ESPN's articles. It's a good story I didn't see posted yet. Check it out! Or continue fighting over a long snapper. :D

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5236931

[dogfish]

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[T.K.O.]

great read with alot of truth's told by people who would know.
of coarse it's still a crap shoot as to whether or not tebow can make a mark at the pro level,but his history suggests he will and i for one will be backing the kid.
go go gadget TEBOW !:salute:

[broncobryce]

great read with alot of truth's told by people who would know.
of coarse it's still a crap shoot as to whether or not tebow can make a mark at the pro level,but his history suggests he will and i for one will be backing the kid.
go go gadget TEBOW !:salute:

I was surprised Tarkenton backed him. Usually that guy talks shit about everybody. :lol:

[GGMoogly]

Meh...these yahoos are still talking about the Tebow college edition. Wait till they see the TebowNFLPro1.0 version (still in beta). :jaw:

[SOCALORADO.]

"I look at Tim Tebow's throwing motion and it doesn't look that much different than Steve Young's, if you put them next to each other," said Harbaugh.
"Steve Young would drop the ball when he threw it. And he's a Hall of Fame quarterback. To me it's more important to be natural than it is to shave a tenth of a second off the time it takes to get rid of the ball."
In 2009, the Super Bowl XXIX MVP told The Los Angeles Times that he was flattered by a reporter's suggestion that Tebow recalled, er, a younger Young.
Young, now an ESPN analyst, told the newspaper that Tebow's delivery might be the only thing about the Florida star he questioned.
"Passing in the NFL is delivering the ball at the right time in the right place," said Young, whose 4,239 yards ranks second only to Randall Cunningham (4,928) on the NFL quarterbacks rushing list.
"If you can't do that, you'll find your way out of the league. To me, that's the only issue. Everything else is comical to me. 'OK, what don't you see?'"
That said, Harbaugh believes too much has been made of Tebow's passing technique.



These guys steal all my thunder.
Apparently, i should be coaching at least at the college Div.I level.

[claymore]

I dont care if he shoots the ball out of his ass as long as he can get it there accuratley, make good decisions, and extend plays when they break down.

[TXBRONC]

The quarterback position is about playmaking, it's about leadership. It's a complex position you can't test for." Fran Tarkenton

I thought this was excellent quote from Tarkenton.

[Zweems56]

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GAH! You beat me to it.

[Ravage!!!]

I was surprised Tarkenton backed him. Usually that guy talks shit about everybody. :lol:

Tarkenton was made fun of for moving and running. At that time, QBs didn't move around and run like he did. So he has a soft spot for that kind of thing.

[Ravage!!!]

My doubts on Tebow aren't about his throwing 'technique' at all. Its that he's never been a good passer, never thrown from anything other than shotgun, and didn't come from an offense that really 'read' defenses.

But.... who knows. We can only hope it works out.

[Northman]

Time will tell.

[Dreadnought]

My doubts on Tebow aren't about his throwing 'technique' at all. Its that he's never been a good passer, never thrown from anything other than shotgun, and didn't come from an offense that really 'read' defenses.

But.... who knows. We can only hope it works out.

While those things are true, he is a pretty bright kid with an off-the-charts work ethic. So he'll have to learn lots of stuff he didn't have to under Urban Meyer - he desperately wants to succeed, as opposed to, say, fatass JaMarcus Russell. Makes a huge difference.

[Northman]

While those things are true, he is a pretty bright kid with an off-the-charts work ethic. So he'll have to learn lots of stuff he didn't have to under Urban Meyer - he desperately wants to succeed, as opposed to, say, fatass JaMarcus Russell. Makes a huge difference.

Very true except wanting and doing are two different things. There are plenty of players that want to succeed in the NFL but dont. But we will know for sure when he has a chance to perform under fire.

[BroncoWave]

My doubts on Tebow aren't about his throwing 'technique' at all. Its that he's never been a good passer, never thrown from anything other than shotgun, and didn't come from an offense that really 'read' defenses.

But.... who knows. We can only hope it works out.

I fail to see your point. Many high school QB's probably never had to read defenses and were always in the shotgun and learned to read defenses and be under center in college. The only difference with Tebow is that he will be learning in the NFL instead of college. I think he's a smart enough guy to pick it up.

And the "never been a good passer" thing is just bullshit. His numbers would prove otherwise.

[Northman]

And the "never been a good passer" thing is just bullshit. His numbers would prove otherwise.

Yes and no. His QB rating is high but his completion percentage is in the 60 percent range and his yards per attempt averages around 10 yards (Probably why McD likes him).

[Ravage!!!]

I fail to see your point. Many high school QB's probably never had to read defenses and were always in the shotgun and learned to read defenses and be under center in college. The only difference with Tebow is that he will be learning in the NFL instead of college. I think he's a smart enough guy to pick it up.

And the "never been a good passer" thing is just bullshit. His numbers would prove otherwise.


Thats not true at all. Most HS QBs play from under center, and they do read defenses (although at a much more limited bases, obviously). But you would expect QBs coming out of big colleges (now days) to read defenses expecting to go forward into the NFL. Thats what the NFL is, a passing league.

But spending four years in a system that NEVER hiked you the ball from under center..when you are at your MOST developmental stage in learning TOP football mechanics when getting ready for the NFL.. is concerning. Its not "smarts" that has anything to do with it.

As far as him being a good passer... he's not. He's not a good passer and never really has been. That has been the BIGGEST criticism of him throughout his NCAA career, and it didn't get better. I'm not even talking mechanics, I'm talking throwing the ball. He's hasn't shown, to be a good thrower in college. How many QBs that have come out of college known to NOT be a good passer, have turned into good passers once they hit the NFL? Thats the biggest concern. Not his throwing motion..imo. Its whether or not he can morph into a good passer.

[Northman]

Thats not true at all. Most HS QBs play from under center, and they do read defenses (although at a much more limited bases, obviously). But you would expect QBs coming out of big colleges (now days) to read defenses expecting to go forward into the NFL. Thats what the NFL is, a passing league.

But spending four years in a system that NEVER hiked you the ball from under center..when you are at your MOST developmental stage in learning TOP football mechanics when getting ready for the NFL.. is concerning. Its not "smarts" that has anything to do with it.

As far as him being a good passer... he's not. He's not a good passer and never really has been. That has been the BIGGEST criticism of him throughout his NCAA career, and it didn't get better. I'm not even talking mechanics, I'm talking throwing the ball. He's hasn't shown, to be a good thrower in college. How many QBs that have come out of college known to NOT be a good passer, have turned into good passers once they hit the NFL? Thats the biggest concern. Not his throwing motion..imo. Its whether or not he can morph into a good passer.

I just posted an article that gauges QB's coming out of college. There are some things that support a guy like Tebow but there is also some things too watch out for (i.e System, run first mentality, etc).

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147788

[Lonestar]

I fail to see your point. Many high school QB's probably never had to read defenses and were always in the shotgun and learned to read defenses and be under center in college. The only difference with Tebow is that he will be learning in the NFL instead of college. I think he's a smart enough guy to pick it up.

And the "never been a good passer" thing is just bullshit. His numbers would prove otherwise.

Great post :salute:

A few posters have been swinging from jays sack since the day he was dafted by mikey, they have zero objectivety in judging the QB slot.

Put them on IGGY so you do not have to waste time reading it I did or will as they cross over to the dark side.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Ravage!!!]

Great post :salute:

A few posters have been swinging from jays sack since the day he was dafted by mikey, they have zero objectivety in judging the QB slot.

Put them on IGGY so you do not have to waste time reading it I did or will as they cross over to the dark side.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Yeah.. because you are known for being so objective in judging a QB!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[spikerman]

Great post :salute:

A few posters have been swinging from jays sack since the day he was dafted by mikey, they have zero objectivety in judging the QB slot.

Put them on IGGY so you do not have to waste time reading it I did or will as they cross over to the dark side.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Maybe I missed it, but you're the only person I remember even mentioning "Jay" or "Mikey" in this thread.

[slim]

Thats not true at all. Most HS QBs play from under center, and they do read defenses (although at a much more limited bases, obviously). But you would expect QBs coming out of big colleges (now days) to read defenses expecting to go forward into the NFL. Thats what the NFL is, a passing league.

But spending four years in a system that NEVER hiked you the ball from under center..when you are at your MOST developmental stage in learning TOP football mechanics when getting ready for the NFL.. is concerning. Its not "smarts" that has anything to do with it.

As far as him being a good passer... he's not. He's not a good passer and never really has been. That has been the BIGGEST criticism of him throughout his NCAA career, and it didn't get better. I'm not even talking mechanics, I'm talking throwing the ball. He's hasn't shown, to be a good thrower in college. How many QBs that have come out of college known to NOT be a good passer, have turned into good passers once they hit the NFL? Thats the biggest concern. Not his throwing motion..imo. Its whether or not he can morph into a good passer.

Why do you say he is not a good passer? His passing numbers certainly say otherwise. In fact, his passing stats are pretty damn impressive.

[slim]

Career Comp %
Tebow - 66.4
Bradford - 67.6

YPA
Tebow - 9.7
Bradford - 9.4

TD/INT
Tebow - 88/16
Bradford - 88/16

[BroncoWave]

Career Comp %
Tebow - 66.4
Bradford - 67.6

YPA
Tebow - 9.7
Bradford - 9.4

TD/INT

But noooo, he sucks as a passer because his motion is a little different and he doesn't have Jay Cutler's cannon arm.

[slim]

But noooo, he sucks as a passer because his motion is a little different and he doesn't have Jay Cutler's cannon arm.

Yeah, that was a strange thing to say.

Rav must be drunk.

[Softskull]

Great post :salute:

A few posters have been swinging from jays sack since the day he was dafted by mikey, they have zero objectivety in judging the QB slot.

Put them on IGGY so you do not have to waste time reading it I did or will as they cross over to the dark side.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Are you kidding? I could understand using the ignore if someone was rude, belittling or just cant get along with, but to drop someone on ignore because you don’t like their opinion in an opinion page (one you started) seems cowardly, especially after the off center (mikey lover, jay's sack, McD hater, everyone's a dumbass except Jr BS) post you’ve been subjecting us to for ages. I suspect you won’t be able to see this post, or my post soon after this. Good luck in your fantasy world. :beer:

[claymore]

Are you kidding? I could understand using the ignore if someone was rude, belittling or just cant get along with, but to drop someone on ignore because you don’t like their opinion in an opinion page (one you started) seems cowardly, especially after the off center (mikey lover, jay's sack, McD hater, everyone's a dumbass except Jr BS) post you’ve been subjecting us to for ages. I suspect you won’t be able to see this post, or my post soon after this. Good luck in your fantasy world. :beer:

:love:

[Ravage!!!]

Why do you say he is not a good passer? His passing numbers certainly say otherwise. In fact, his passing stats are pretty damn impressive.

COme on Slim.. we know that stats never tell the entire story. This is a perfect example.

Tebow isn't a good passer. he didn't run a "passing" offense that required him to read a defense like he will have to in the NFL. He ran a spread offense his entire career that centered around him RUNNING the ball. I'm not saying the guy can't throw a spiral, or won't complete any passes. Of course he will. But he's NEVER been known to be a good passer in College. Never. He was never the QB taht would beat you with his arm. He would beat you with his legs. That has been the knock on Tebow since his early years in the NCAA, and it never improved. Even between his junior and senior year when he professed to 'show people' that he could become an NFL passer, and had the entire off-season to change his throwing..... he didn't.

His numbers don't mean anything. Its watching the games and watching the play. You can see that he's not a good passer, and it doesn't have anything to do with this "motion" that Bailey is suggesting I'm talking about. Its his passing itself. He's not a good passer. Thats the concern for me. Thats always been the concern.

Tebow isn't a better passer than Orton. Think about that. Tebow is not known for being a good passing QB. Orton is a better passer than Tebow. So Tebow is supposed to bring the other intangibles that make him better. Like running (which isn't something you want to rely on from a QB in the NFL). Tebow wasn't a good passer in college, but we are hoping to make him much better in the NFL. He wasn't really asked to read much defense in college, but we are hoping to teach him in the NFL. He relied on the run in college, but we are hoping to change that in the NFL. He didn't have a good throwing motion in college, but we are hoping to change that in the NFL (threw that in there since Bailey is so convinced that is the biggest gripe).

[BroncoWave]

COme on Slim.. we know that stats never tell the entire story. This is a perfect example.

Tebow isn't a good passer. he didn't run a "passing" offense that required him to read a defense like he will have to in the NFL. He ran a spread offense his entire career that centered around him RUNNING the ball. I'm not saying the guy can't throw a spiral, or won't complete any passes. Of course he will. But he's NEVER been known to be a good passer in College. Never. He was never the QB taht would beat you with his arm. He would beat you with his legs. That has been the knock on Tebow since his early years in the NCAA, and it never improved. Even between his junior and senior year when he professed to 'show people' that he could become an NFL passer, and had the entire off-season to change his throwing..... he didn't.

His numbers don't mean anything. Its watching the games and watching the play. You can see that he's not a good passer, and it doesn't have anything to do with this "motion" that Bailey is suggesting I'm talking about. Its his passing itself. He's not a good passer. Thats the concern for me. Thats always been the concern.

Tebow isn't a better passer than Orton. Think about that. Tebow is not known for being a good passing QB. Orton is a better passer than Tebow. So Tebow is supposed to bring the other intangibles that make him better. Like running (which isn't something you want to rely on from a QB in the NFL). Tebow wasn't a good passer in college, but we are hoping to make him much better in the NFL. He wasn't really asked to read much defense in college, but we are hoping to teach him in the NFL. He relied on the run in college, but we are hoping to change that in the NFL. He didn't have a good throwing motion in college, but we are hoping to change that in the NFL (threw that in there since Bailey is so convinced that is the biggest gripe).

There wasn't a single thing in this post to back up your claim that he isn't a good passer. Your only argument was "I watched him play and he didn't look like a good passer to me". Well if that's the best you have, excuse me for not putting much stock in that opinion. I'll take the opinion of someone like McDaniels who actually evaluates and coaches QBs for a living.

As for your "never a QB that could beat you with his arm, he could only beat you with his legs" argument, that's just laughable. You must not have seen the Sugar Bowl this year or the passing records he set in that game.

[Ravage!!!]

There wasn't a single thing in this post to back up your claim that he isn't a good passer. Your only argument was "I watched him play and he didn't look like a good passer to me". Well if that's the best you have, excuse me for not putting much stock in that opinion. I'll take the opinion of someone like McDaniels who actually evaluates and coaches QBs for a living.

As for your "never a QB that could beat you with his arm, he could only beat you with his legs" argument, that's just laughable. You must not have seen the Sugar Bowl this year or the passing records he set in that game.

Bailey, thats not just my opinion on his throwing. Thats been the opinion of the scouts and people watching him throughout his career. I'm not going to go and find 800 links for you to read to simply justify what has been pointed out and said a million times before. So you'll excuse me if I don't give much clout into your opinion. They are opinion's, but all you have to do is watch him throw, and you can see he's not a good passer.

As far as your second paragraph, you must not have watched the Senior Bowl or heard what the coaches had to say after that. They could see that Tebow didn't know how to read defenses, didn't know how to take snaps, and didn't have a clue how to run an offense other than a "spread em and run" type.

Its fine if you believe that he's a good passer. I don't. I don't think he's a good passer, and I know (feel confident) that he's absolutely not as good of a passer as Orton is. Which realistically, says a LOT.

There are a TON of things for Tebow to overcome in order for him to be what we NEED him to be to justify the 4 picks we used to get him. He'll have to overcome more than most QBs do that are taken that high, and considering the expectations that have surrounded his hype and press coverage...its going to be a MONSTEROUS challenge. One that I don't think will come a reality.

I have nothing against Tebow. I don't have a favorite NCAA team, and don't have a "hate" for him because he played for Florida. We know I don't like Orton, so its not like I"m upset that he was drafted to take Orton's spot. I'm just being realistic in what is pretty apparent on the amount of things that we "want" or "need" to change in him to make him a good NFL PASSING QB. In the NFL, thats what you need. A stud PASSER. Tebow has NEVER been considered a stud passer.... at all.

[BroncoWave]

Bailey, thats not just my opinion on his throwing. Thats been the opinion of the scouts and people watching him throughout his career. I'm not going to go and find 800 links for you to read to simply justify what has been pointed out and said a million times before. So you'll excuse me if I don't give much clout into your opinion. They are opinion's, but all you have to do is watch him throw, and you can see he's not a good passer.

And I can find you 800 links from people who think he'll be a great NFL QB. Your point?


As far as your second paragraph, you must not have watched the Senior Bowl or heard what the coaches had to say after that. They could see that Tebow didn't know how to read defenses, didn't know how to take snaps, and didn't have a clue how to run an offense other than a "spread em and run" type.

This is BY FAR the most laughable part of your post. The Senior Bowl was probably the first time he'd had to take snaps and read defenses in an offense other than the spread. Would it not be fair to say that the first time someone does something different they might struggle a bit? It is absolutely laughable to say that since he struggled in these things the FIRST time he had to do them that that he will never ever learn how to do them or be successful in them.

Is this the attitude you have when you teach your kids to ride a bike? You see them fall off the first time and you're like "well shit, you can't ride a bike, you'll never be good at it!". It's basically the same logic you're using with Tebow.


Its fine if you believe that he's a good passer. I don't. I don't think he's a good passer, and I know (feel confident) that he's absolutely not as good of a passer as Orton is. Which realistically, says a LOT.

Tebow is a rookie, Orton is a 5 or 6 year vet. Of course Orton will be ahead of Tebow as a passer at this point.



I have nothing against Tebow. I don't have a favorite NCAA team, and don't have a "hate" for him because he played for Florida. We know I don't like Orton, so its not like I"m upset that he was drafted to take Orton's spot. I'm just being realistic in what is pretty apparent on the amount of things that we "want" or "need" to change in him to make him a good NFL PASSING QB. In the NFL, thats what you need. A stud PASSER. Tebow has NEVER been considered a stud passer.... at all.

Tebow has never HAD to be a stud passer, but that doesn't mean he can't do it. He has all the physical tools and he has the work ethic to accomplish it. It may take him a few years but I have no doubt that he has the ability to become an elite NFL QB in the future.

[Ravage!!!]

And I can find you 800 links from people who think he'll be a great NFL QB. Your point?
:lol: The point is exactly what I said it was Bailey. Quit trying to make arguments where there isnt' any simply because you have your feathers in a ruffle. YOU stated that it was MY opinion only that didn't think Tebow wasn't a good passer, and griped that I didn't provide any "proof" to back it up. Which is absolutely ABSURD, to begin with, since we are talking about an opinion and opinions don't need some kind of "fact." Either way, its not just MY opinion that doesn't find him to be a good passer. Its MANY people's opinion, and not just mine, and if you want that as proof, then go do your own google search. Either way... you have twisted it back and forth :lol: to where you don't even know what you are trying to argue against :lol:




This is BY FAR the most laughable part of your post. The Senior Bowl was probably the first time he'd had to take snaps and read defenses in an offense other than the spread. Would it not be fair to say that the first time someone does something different they might struggle a bit? It is absolutely laughable to say that since he struggled in these things the FIRST time he had to do them that that he will never ever learn how to do them or be successful in them.
:lol: Then how is it the other QBs didn't have the same kind of struggles? Isn't that EXACTLY my point, Bailey? Try to keep up. I've blatantly stated out for you the things that have to change, and be TAUGHT to Tebow while he is in the NFL.. instead of during the years that give the most develoment (college).. and THUS.. why I have the concerns. That is SOOOO easy to understand. If you would simply read what is said instead of trying to make an argument as if your opinion is going to change anything.

I said that Tebow doesn't know how to take snaps from center.. something we'll have to teach him in the NFL. Tebow doesn't know how to read defenses, something we'll have to teach him in the NFL. Tebow doesn't have a good throwing motion, something we'll have to teach him in the NFL. Tebow doesn't throw the ball well, something we hope to change in the NFL. Tebow relied on his legs and running to win in college, something we will have to change in the NFL.

Its not LAUGHABLE to see that we have to teach Tebow a LOT of things at the NFL level that MOST QBs taken in the first round, and had 4 picks given up for him, have had a big base to work with during their 4 years at college. Not-so with Tebow. Its not LAUGHABLE to see that because he doesn't have this base, means that he has to 'learn' while in the NFL, what other QBs have had 4 years experience doing while in the NCAA. So again, since I have to repeat... its a concern that this IS his first time doing these things.


Is this the attitude you have when you teach your kids to ride a bike? You see them fall off the first time and you're like "well shit, you can't ride a bike, you'll never be good at it!". It's basically the same logic you're using with Tebow.
Its examples like these, that make me realize how you sometimes have a hard time keeping up with the conversation. This isn't anything like what was being said.


Tebow is a rookie, Orton is a 5 or 6 year vet. Of course Orton will be ahead of Tebow as a passer at this point.
This is so wrong, I don't even know where to start.

Orton isn't a good passer. He's not a better passer than most 1st round QBs taken in the draft. I wasn't talking about having the experience of reading defenses. I said PASSER, just as you repeated. If Tebow needs 5-6 years in the NFL to be as good of a passer as Orton is, then he should NEVER EVER EVER been a 1st round pick.

This post of yours, just made a scary point against Tebow..... one of which I wasn't even making.


Tebow has never HAD to be a stud passer, but that doesn't mean he can't do it. He has all the physical tools and he has the work ethic to accomplish it. It may take him a few years but I have no doubt that he has the ability to become an elite NFL QB in the future.

Thats fine that is your opinion. But of course you have doubt. If you didn't have doubt, you wouldn't be trying so hard and making up arguments where they don't exist in order to convince me.

Tebow will NEVER be an elite passer in the NFL. That is my opinion.

[Lonestar]

Maybe I missed it, but you're the only person I remember even mentioning "Jay" or "Mikey" in this thread.

so it was pertinent to the conversation. no likey my mikey commnets put me on iggy no skin off my ass.

[Northman]

so it was pertinent to the conversation. no likey my mikey commnets put me on iggy no skin off my ass.

There will be if i clay gives you spanky.

[spikerman]

so it was pertinent to the conversation. no likey my mikey commnets put me on iggy no skin off my ass.

I don't have anybody on ignore. Try not to take these discussions so personally. I was just pointing out that you implied that people can't get over Shanahan and Cutler when it was you who introduced them into the conversation.

[Lonestar]

Are you kidding? I could understand using the ignore if someone was rude, belittling or just cant get along with, but to drop someone on ignore because you don’t like their opinion in an opinion page (one you started) seems cowardly, especially after the off center (mikey lover, jay's sack, McD hater, everyone's a dumbass except Jr BS) post you’ve been subjecting us to for ages. I suspect you won’t be able to see this post, or my post soon after this. Good luck in your fantasy world. :beer:

Actually I do it as I consider there posts as crap and irrelevant to most of the conversations.

When someone has a woody for older players that they can't get past them then IMO they are so biased they are not worth paying attention to.

There are other reasons as you mentioned.


to the best of my knowledge those terms are true in nature . so I will use them as deemed necessary.

Again I have not beef with you as overall you have not demonstrated any undo animosity to Broncos past or present.

when you do I'll let you know,:salute:

[Lonestar]

I don't have anybody on ignore. Try not to take these discussions so personally. I was just pointing out that you implied that people can't get over Shanahan and Cutler when it was you who introduced them into the conversation.

if you have not yet figured out who the mikey and jay fan club members are and the woody they have for anything NOT Josh, Tebow, Orton, then I guess my comments will be needed for a while to remind folks..

Again feel free to skip my posts, While I try to stick up for the players on my team, flawed or talented as the may be.

[BroncoWave]

So Rav, these are the things you say Tebow sucks at and needs to be taught:

Taking snaps: I've heard nothing from OTA's about him having trouble taking snaps from center. And even if he were, this is by far the easiest thing to fix. Not an issue.

Reading defenses: This is the only thing of the 5 you listed that I think is a valid concern. While he is probably behind other rookies in this regard it's nothing he can't learn. The two biggest things an NFL QB needs to be able to read defenses is the intelligence to grasp it and the work ethic to become great at it. If there are two things that Tebow is considered excellent in, it's his football intelligence and his work ethic. While he might be behind other rookies in this regard, it's nothing he can't pick up in a year or two, and since we aren't relying on him to start right away this isn't a huge concern to me at this point.

Throwing motion: There have been plenty of NFL QBs succeed with elongated/quirky throwing motions. McDaniels says his throwing motion is fine. I believe him and I see no concern here.

Throwing the ball well: What do you even mean by this? Someone who can't throw the ball well wouldn't complete 2/3 of his passes against SEC defenses. Someone who can't throw the ball well wouldn't have the TD/INT ratio Tebow had against SEC defenses. This is such a vague thing to criticize him for. He threw the ball just fine in college.

Relying on the run: There were plenty of games this season and in others in which teams bottled up his running game and he made plays in the passing game to lead them to victory. Saying he had to rely on the run to be successful in college is simply a myth.

[Ravage!!!]

So Rav, these are the things you say Tebow sucks at and needs to be taught:

I've never used the word sucks. But these are all things that have to be 'taught' to him while in the NFL. Thats my concern. Things that MOST QBs at this stage in the game, know. Things they have experience in, things that are second nature (taking snaps, dropping back, throwing motion).


Taking snaps: I've heard nothing from OTA's about him having trouble taking snaps from center. And even if he were, this is by far the easiest thing to fix. Not an issue.
Very much an issue. Taking snaps in OTAs when pretty much sitting still, is easy. Learning to read a defense (something as you said he doesn't have much experience at)... from under cent and doing it WHILE dropping back..whether that be in your 3, 5 or 7 step drops.... is more to learn than you are giving credit for. Thats just not reading, thats knowing your awareness while moving BACKWARDS from center. ITs reading while your eyes are closer to the defense rather than from back behind the LOS. Its knowing your steps so that you don't over shoot or under shoot the pocket. Its knowing how to move IN the pocket while/from dropping back. Its learning how to step UP into the pocket and throw from dropping back. Its learning timing while learnin the 3,5 and 7 step drops instead of shot-gun. This was one of the BIGGEST things that most NFL QBs and scouts said was what he didn't have ANY knowledge of. You are really wrong if you are suggesting "not an issue."

Yes, he can learn it.. maybe. Maybe not? I mean, he's starting (literally) at the baby steps of learning how to drop back and pass. MOST QBs, do that from HS. Then they have 5 years of college to do more of it. Thats not just during games. They are doing it during all the practices, drills, offseasons. Thats where it becomes second nature and a basic 'rythme' of their play. Its very much an issue.


Reading defenses: This is the only thing of the 5 you listed that I think is a valid concern. While he is probably behind other rookies in this regard it's nothing he can't learn. The two biggest things an NFL QB needs to be able to read defenses is the intelligence to grasp it and the work ethic to become great at it. If there are two things that Tebow is considered excellent in, it's his football intelligence and his work ethic. While he might be behind other rookies in this regard, it's nothing he can't pick up in a year or two, and since we aren't relying on him to start right away this isn't a huge concern to me at this point.
Its having to read and excute. The one thign that is over-played in regards to Tebow.. is his work ethic. He doesn't magically have more hours in the day than anyone else. TONS and tons of QBs/players have had the same work ethic as Tebow. He doesn't posses more. We'll hear far too much of the "first one in the morning, last one to leave." We hear that about SOOOOO many players in the league its become a joke of a cliche'. So what you are agreeing with, is that he is behind. Meaning more time that he needs to be spending at the baby stages instead of the later stages. Its like building blocks. If you have a foundation built, then you can continue to add more stories on top of your house. Right now, Tebow doesn't have that foundation to build upon.

Also.. don't be so sure as to how quickly we will want Tebow to start. McD has a TON riding on Tebow. He wasn't drafted to sit for long. He'll start before the season is over.


Throwing motion: There have been plenty of NFL QBs succeed with elongated/quirky throwing motions. McDaniels says his throwing motion is fine. I believe him and I see no concern here.
Of course you don't. You don't see a concern with anything. To me the throwing motion isn't the largest, but its big. Because, we have to couple that with the drop back. That elongated throwing motion just isn't going to be fast enough. Its not hitting the target that is a concern with that motion, its everything else around him. Its the blocking, its the timing, its the stepping and the pocket. Its the problems it causes with defenders and getting the ball DOWN the field at a much faster rate than you have to at Florida. Its all linked together. If it was just a weird quirk in his throwing motion, then you are right. No big deal. This isn't really my biggest worry at all. Its just one that is ADDED to all the other thanks we have to try and TEACH our first round QB.


Throwing the ball well: What do you even mean by this? Someone who can't throw the ball well wouldn't complete 2/3 of his passes against SEC defenses. Someone who can't throw the ball well wouldn't have the TD/INT ratio Tebow had against SEC defenses. This is such a vague thing to criticize him for. He threw the ball just fine in college.
Its not vague. You think he's a good passer and I don't. You want to use stats to prove your point, but as we have seen SOOOO many times before in so many other discussions.... stats just don't tell the whole story.

Tebow knew he wasn't a good passer. He knew he didn't have good "grades" from the NFL scouts between his junior and senior year. He stated that HE would work hard in the offseason to work on his throwing and his throwing motion to 'prove' he could be an NFL QB. Well, going back to the 'work ethic he has to be great'.... nothing changed. He didn't work on it. He didn't change his wind-up motion. He didn't improve in that department at all. You want to say he's a good passer, and I'm really not going to change your mind, nor try. But I don't see a good passer. I don't see someone that is a PASSING QB... and in this league.. the NFL..... you absolutely have to be a stud passer to be a continuous contender.

Now I'm not saying he's soooo bad that he'll never complete passes or throw TDs. I'm not saying he won't even have great games. I mean, even Orton has had some individual great passing games. That doesn't make him a great passer (how many times do we have to hear certain poster bring up the NE game?). But it is scary (to me) to see that Orton is actually a better passer than Tebow, and EVERYRONE knows that Orton is not a good passer. Having 5-6 years in the NFL doesn't give him reason to be a better passer. Only better at reading defenses.


Relying on the run: There were plenty of games this season and in others in which teams bottled up his running game and he made plays in the passing game to lead them to victory. Saying he had to rely on the run to be successful in college is simply a myth.

Not a myth. One of the biggest observations of Tebow's play throughout his NCAA career was his ability to RUN the ball. NEVER EVER was it the ability to throw it. If he COULD throw the ball well, he would have been the #1 overall pick in the NFL. Why wasn't he? Not because of some throwing motion. IT was because of ALL the above. IT was because he's not a good thrower. Its because he doesn't throw the ball well, doesn't know how to take from center, doesn't know how to read defenses, and GMs are leery of QBs that have had NCAA success when relying on their legs. ITs not one single thing, its the accumulation of all.

As you well know... throwing the ball in the NCAA is much easier than in the pros. Reading defenses is easier in college than the pros. Running the ball for a QB is easier in college than in the pros. Thats why I would have loved to have a QB that learned from the easier and progressed through/to the harder when coming into the NFL.

Like I've said. I'm not saying the guy is a lock to be a failure. I'm not saying he's a bust. I'm saying that I don't think he will EVER be an elite passer, and I think considering the media hype that has surrounded him, and the picks that were given up to get him...he'll have an EXTREMELY hard time living up to the expectations.

[BroncoWave]

So according to you Tebow has absolutely no foundation for any skill needed to be an NFL QB. :lol:

Whatever you say. Say what you want about McDaniels but QB is clearly his specialty and if he had absolutely none of these foundations as you state, he (as well as other teams that were ready to take him in the same area) wouldn't have taken him in the first round. Forgive me if I value his opinion on the position and the player over yours.

FWIW, you can say the "work ethic" thing is a cliche but McDaniels said about Tebow BEFORE the draft that Tebow was the most football intelligent prospect he has ever met coming out of college an one of the hardest workers. While you see QB's like Matt Leinart and Jay Cutler and even Kyle Orton going out getting drunk and partying, Tebow is sitting in his room studying and trying to get better. You can say it's a cliche and in most cases you're probably right, but Tebow actually walks that walk IMO. We all know Tebow has the physical tools to be a great NFL QB, and I have no doubt that he has the mental tools to work out everything else.

[frauschieze]

if you have not yet figured out who the mikey and jay fan club members are and the woody they have for anything NOT Josh, Tebow, Orton, then I guess my comments will be needed for a while to remind folks..

Again feel free to skip my posts, While I try to stick up for the players on my team, flawed or talented as the may be.

And there is exactly where you are so wrong. You mischaracterize people's viewpoints by interjecting your preceptions on different posters' opinions on things that are completely unrelated to the topic being discussed.

You are a broken record when it comes to Shanahan and Cutler. I guarantee you, not a soul here needs reminding of it.

[WARHORSE]

:lol: The point is exactly what I said it was Bailey. Quit trying to make arguments where there isnt' any simply because you have your feathers in a ruffle. YOU stated that it was MY opinion only that didn't think Tebow wasn't a good passer, and griped that I didn't provide any "proof" to back it up. Which is absolutely ABSURD, to begin with, since we are talking about an opinion and opinions don't need some kind of "fact." Either way, its not just MY opinion that doesn't find him to be a good passer. Its MANY people's opinion, and not just mine, and if you want that as proof, then go do your own google search. Either way... you have twisted it back and forth :lol: to where you don't even know what you are trying to argue against :lol:


Tebow will NEVER be an elite passer in the NFL. That is my opinion.





I gotta question your logic.

Its one thing to say, "In my opinion Tebow was not a good college passer", its another thing to make the statement, "Tim was not a good college passer."

Following up an opinion with reasoning is paramount, otherwise we should all just come in here and say, "Peyton Manning is not a good passer in this league.....doesnt impress me a bit."

What Bailey is saying, is the PROOF is that Tebow was indeed a good college passer. In fact, you could say he was a GREAT college passer.

As for the opinions of the scouts and pundits, I cant find one ignorant enough to say that Tebow isnt at least in the conversation of being the best college player in HISTORY. Of ALL TIME.

This is being discussed, and many already vote him as, the best of all time.

Why? If you took his passing stats, he would stand tall. But when you add his ability to run, this is where he separates himself.

The fact that Tebow could run is not in any shape, fashion or form a knock on his ability to pass. Was he run first? Probably. But why WOULDNT you run a guy that breaks tackles like Larry Czonka, and refuses to go down?
So how much running was Meyers asking Tebow to do?

Running the QB makes the defense SUFFER. Part of the reason Tebow could run is because he could pass too.

As for NFL readiness............you must ask yourself, why did the Titans take Vince Young over Leinhart and Cutler? Why did Arizona take Leinhart over Cutler? Did Cutlers passing game potential not dwarf those other two?

Was there anyone in the nation that didnt view Vince Young as a spread offense, run first QB?

Now Im going to tell you the difference imo between Vince and Tebow......TT is a smart individual. Vince is smart too, but processing the information thrown at you on the NFL level is overwhelming. Does anyone doubt that the Titans threw VY into the fire too early? The Titans drafted Chris Johnson because he was just what Vince needed......a safety valve that had big play potential. VY is not Peyton, but he can be an effective passer in the right system.

He needs NFL reps. He needs a ton of reps. But he will get them. He has ALL the tools he needs to be successful. What I hope for is TT to come in just like he did in FLorida with Chris Leak. It will give him reps......it will give him opportunity to contribute.........it will give him game day vision......and it will take the pressure of having the world on his shoulders off of him. He will be coming into the game eager to prove himself.

Most of all, he will be coming into a situation where his skills will allow him to be successful.....which will give him confidence that he belongs. This will help him to be the best player we can hope him to be.


So to say TT was not a good college passer.........makes us concerned for your opinion ;).....because we are wondering what youre looking at, and how you came to your assumptions. Nevertheless, its all good.

When I watch Tebow in college......I see the same thing I saw in VY and Mike Vick: great players. Remember, it was VY that threw for over 400 yards in the national championship game.....not Leinhart. Was he a good passer?

Lastly, I'll ask something that hasnt been mentioned yet: How much of Tim Tebows future success will be determined by the system he will be in, and the coaching around him?


Tim is in GREAT hands imo. Our offense is geared for his attributes. We have a coach who knows what hes doing. He will coach up Tebow, and he will coach up Tebow to his potential.

If McD cant get it out of him, no one will imo because Josh was taylormade for TT, and TT for Josh. You mention coming from under center, but how much of that do we do here?

TT doesnt have to be and isnt Tom Brady.....but Tom Brady couldnt outrun a snail on a train going the opposite direction.

One thing we can all be excited about, Josh is going to focus on what TT does well, and develop everything.

Broncos baby!!:salute:

[rcsodak]

Career Comp %
Tebow - 66.4
Bradford - 67.6

YPA
Tebow - 9.7
Bradford - 9.4

TD/INT
Tebow - 88/16
Bradford - 88/16

Little misleading on the total td....since he did it over 4 years....where Sam got his (86) in two.

[rcsodak]

Are you kidding? I could understand using the ignore if someone was rude, belittling or just cant get along with, but to drop someone on ignore because you don’t like their opinion in an opinion page (one you started) seems cowardly, especially after the off center (mikey lover, jay's sack, McD hater, everyone's a dumbass except Jr BS) post you’ve been subjecting us to for ages. I suspect you won’t be able to see this post, or my post soon after this. Good luck in your fantasy world. :beer:

You could say that about alot of people on this forum....in fact, I imagine most will be your hi-fivers. :cool:

[BroncoWave]

Little misleading on the total td....since he did it over 4 years....where Sam got his (86) in two.

That's fine, makes Tebow's INT number all the more impressive.

[rcsodak]

COme on Slim.. we know that stats never tell the entire story. This is a perfect example.

Tebow isn't a good passer. he didn't run a "passing" offense that required him to read a defense like he will have to in the NFL. He ran a spread offense his entire career that centered around him RUNNING the ball. I'm not saying the guy can't throw a spiral, or won't complete any passes. Of course he will. But he's NEVER been known to be a good passer in College. Never. He was never the QB taht would beat you with his arm. He would beat you with his legs. That has been the knock on Tebow since his early years in the NCAA, and it never improved. Even between his junior and senior year when he professed to 'show people' that he could become an NFL passer, and had the entire off-season to change his throwing..... he didn't.

His numbers don't mean anything. Its watching the games and watching the play. You can see that he's not a good passer, and it doesn't have anything to do with this "motion" that Bailey is suggesting I'm talking about. Its his passing itself. He's not a good passer. Thats the concern for me. Thats always been the concern.

Tebow isn't a better passer than Orton. Think about that. Tebow is not known for being a good passing QB. Orton is a better passer than Tebow. So Tebow is supposed to bring the other intangibles that make him better. Like running (which isn't something you want to rely on from a QB in the NFL). Tebow wasn't a good passer in college, but we are hoping to make him much better in the NFL. He wasn't really asked to read much defense in college, but we are hoping to teach him in the NFL. He relied on the run in college, but we are hoping to change that in the NFL. He didn't have a good throwing motion in college, but we are hoping to change that in the NFL (threw that in there since Bailey is so convinced that is the biggest gripe).

You don't have to be a "pretty" passer to excel in the NFL. Look at Rivers. He throws like a girl, but is considered one of the better long-ball passers. Look at VYoung. He shot-puts it, but look at his winning record last year, when the truer passer failed.

Alot of qb's have had quirks in one way or another.
It's up to the coaches and the player to either fix it, or work around it. Whatever it takes to excel.

OU was kicking the shit out of FL in the BCS Championship game a few years back. Tebow was running for his life and getting dirty. But he came through in the fourth quarter and won the game with his arm, thanks to Harvin.

Just because Tebow has never HAD to read/defeat defenses doesn't mean he CAN'T. Meyer had a winning QB in how he played, and wasn't about to tinker with it.

[rcsodak]

I don't have anybody on ignore. Try not to take these discussions so personally. I was just pointing out that you implied that people can't get over Shanahan and Cutler when it was you who introduced them into the conversation.

They're compared in every post, spike, whether named or not.

Surely you can see that.

Just like every qb after John was compared to him, named or not.

Some of us just are more practical, and want to make it clearer for the less fortunate to understand. ;)

[GGMoogly]

I understand all these arguments being made as to TT's lack of passing ability but every time I read one I think of Vince Lombardi, when asked how fast Paul Hornung ran the 40-yard dash, "What the hell difference does it make? He gets in the end zone, doesn’t he? Fourteen seconds, I don’t know."

[Lonestar]

They're compared in every post, spike, whether named or not.

Surely you can see that.

Just like every qb after John was compared to him, named or not.

Some of us just are more practical, and want to make it clearer for the less fortunate to understand. ;)

Good incisive post.

It is plain for most to see that some staked their reps to mike, jay or to see degree brandon.as far back as Jake they swore that jay was the second coming of John. If someone else does good then they/ideas are diminished.

Certain egos will mot allow that.

Personally I just want the best man on the field for that particular moment that gives us the best chance tp win consistently.

If it is Quinn or Orton till Tebow is ready tp rock and roll GREAT for us. To others it has to be there guy.
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[Lonestar]

I understand all these arguments being made as to TT's lack of passing ability but every time I read one I think of Vince Lombardi, when asked how fast Paul Hornung ran the 40-yard dash, "What the hell difference does it make? He gets in the end zone, doesn’t he? Fourteen seconds, I don’t know."

But but times were simpler then.

They had the best coach, a simple scheme, the best players. Many times they told the D what they were going to do by the formation and they shoved it down their throat.

Not an once of finesse, just flat assed brute force. And that is one of the reasons the Lombardi Trophy is named for the best of the best.

Thus endth todays sermon.
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[Lonestar]

Btw I meant to add many times I'd see Bart point at a hole and challenge the D to stop them. Rarely did they do it.
Most of all it was SIOPS totally demoralizing to be told here we come and not be able to stop them.
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[spikerman]

They're compared in every post, spike, whether named or not.

Surely you can see that.

Just like every qb after John was compared to him, named or not.

Some of us just are more practical, and want to make it clearer for the less fortunate to understand. ;) I've seen him compared to Steve Young and Fran Tarkenton too. Not everything has to be about Shanahan and Cutler. I didn't get the impression that anyone was making that comparison in this thread before they were mentioned by name. If I missed it please direct me to the post. Personally, I hope he succeeds, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have my doubts. I would also be lying if I said I was comfortable with my favorite team entering the season with these three as the quarterback options. Either way, my opinion on what I think about Tebow's technique (and I suspect most people think this way) has nothing to do with either Shanahan or Cutler.

[rcsodak]

I've seen him compared to Steve Young and Fran Tarkenton too. Not everything has to be about Shanahan and Cutler. I didn't get the impression that anyone was making that comparison in this thread before they were mentioned by name. If I missed it please direct me to the post. Personally, I hope he succeeds, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have my doubts. I would also be lying if I said I was comfortable with my favorite team entering the season with these three as the quarterback options. Either way, my opinion on what I think about Tebow's technique (and I suspect most people think this way) has nothing to do with either Shanahan or Cutler.

Well,spike, like it or not, almost EVERY post made, when citing how deplorable of qb Orton is, or how bad gaffney/wr corp is, or the drafting/coaching turns out to be, is from those that have their eyes wide shut. They're being compared to their predecessors, just as every qb has been to Elway. Most don't have the ability/want, to admit it, or they'd be called homers....and that's...well...you know. :listen:

[frauschieze]

Well,spike, like it or not, almost EVERY post made, when citing how deplorable of qb Orton is, or how bad gaffney/wr corp is, or the drafting/coaching turns out to be, is from those that have their eyes wide shut. They're being compared to their predecessors, just as every qb has been to Elway. Most don't have the ability/want, to admit it, or they'd be called homers....and that's...well...you know. :listen:

Wow. Just wow.

Maybe you should try listening to what people have to say instead of ascribing opinions to them which they haven't stated. Deciding a significant number of posters have a set of hidden opinions they don't share for risk of being called homers is, well.....kind of ludicrous.

[TXBRONC]

I've seen him compared to Steve Young and Fran Tarkenton too. Not everything has to be about Shanahan and Cutler. I didn't get the impression that anyone was making that comparison in this thread before they were mentioned by name. If I missed it please direct me to the post. Personally, I hope he succeeds, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have my doubts. I would also be lying if I said I was comfortable with my favorite team entering the season with these three as the quarterback options. Either way, my opinion on what I think about Tebow's technique (and I suspect most people think this way) has nothing to do with either Shanahan or Cutler.

You didn't miss anything Spike. Not everything is about Shanahan and or Cutler.

[Northman]

You didn't miss anything Spike. Not everything is about Shanahan and or Cutler.

Well, it is if you cant handle anything negative about the new players or coaches. When those who cant debate anything regarding the new regime without bringing up players and coaches who have nothing to do with this regime have already lost the arguement. :lol:

[Broncolingus]

Ya'll just be crazy!

http://www.youthink.com/quiz_images/quiz1290outcome6.jpg

[Northman]

Looks like Simon Cowell.

[Broncolingus]

Looks like Simon Cowell.

NS...

****-in freakshow, dude...

[TXBRONC]

Looks like Simon Cowell.

I thinks it's Tom Cruise FWIW.

[Broncolingus]

Wow!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_HN3tigaU1Bk/RyDnrCgCszI/AAAAAAAABaQ/7UTDdTbDQ94/s320/teebs.jpg

Definetly NOT sweating Tebow's technique...