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WARHORSE
06-02-2010, 04:25 AM
Has McDaniels said publically why Mike Nolan was fired? But even more to the point, why Don Martindale was given the defensive coordinator position? Did McDaniels see something special with Wink?
--Mark, Honolulu
As I was told by several players, the beginning of the end for Nolan was the Indianapolis Colts' game — the 13th of the season. To review, the Broncos carried an 8-4 record into that game, having won their last two. McDaniels won the coin toss, deferred, and then Peyton Manning put the Colts up 21-0 after three possessions.

During that 21-0 blitzkrieg, Nolan called some plays — particularly the run-blitz — that McDaniels didn't like. The hostile way McDaniels handled that communication breakdown was not well-received by Nolan. A month and four consecutive losses later, Nolan and McDaniels mutually agreed to part ways, without much comment.
In Martindale, McDaniels figures to have a more obedient defensive coordinator without losing much aggressiveness. (http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14386016) Martindale's background, after all, is rooted in the Buddy-Rex-Rob Ryan defensive school of attack, attack, attack. (http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14298690)

By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15205066


Well, this doesnt make me too happy to be honest with you. Cause it seems to me that we had a defensive coordinator who didnt like taking orders..............While its easy to see how it could go there (veteran coach with lots of years in the league, known for his defensive prowess, coming from a HC firing.....vs young HC with no experience giving the orders..........) there is no excuse if Nolan started tanking it after this game.

This came from the players mouths.

If Nolan was calling run blitzes against Peyton.......(WHAT????)......the team that passes 99.9% of the time........and the head coach didnt like it and let it be known, then by all means you listen and follow orders.

I for one would consider McDaniels view since he came from a team that had Peytons number for years.

Run blitzes? No wonder they put up 21 on us early. Go back and watch the game. Peyton opens with tons of passing, closes with runs.

And Nolan had us run blitzing? No wonder McD was pissed. He wanted to stay in the base defense in those packages, and I guess we can see why.......hello Dallas Clark.

Anyways, looking to the second half, McD was right.

And then our defense tanked it the rest of the season..........hmmmmm.

Nolan needed to leave.
Looks like he didnt have the humility to respect Joshs position, rather than getting caught up in who had the most years in the league. Look, you had your shot Nolan, so when a rookie comes in and wants to do things his way, you of all people should know that is his right.


Im glad Nolan is gone now that Ive heard this.


Go get um Wink.:salute:

Dirk
06-02-2010, 05:19 AM
If things went down that way, I agree. Nolan's ego couldn't allow him to take orders from McD. I agree with the split. Let's hope that Wink can get the job done.

Elevation inc
06-02-2010, 05:25 AM
oh geez i see a firestorm coming thanks WAR...lol

claymore
06-02-2010, 07:03 AM
21-0 means our offensive genius (McD) was shut out until late in the second QTR. It sounds like another immature emotional outburtst on behalf of McD.

If I was Nolan I would have told him to get bent as well. Dont chew my ass for not being able to stop one of the greatest QB's of all time, and you cant even convert a 3rd down against the 18th ranked defense.

broncofaninfla
06-02-2010, 07:38 AM
I can't recal specifics but I remember being VERY pissed at MCd's play calling for that game.

Can anybody pull up the game threads for that game?

claymore
06-02-2010, 07:48 AM
I can't recal specifics but I remember being VERY pissed at MCd's play calling for that game.

Can anybody pull up the game threads for that game?

Game day thread
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92695&highlight=colts

missingnumber7
06-02-2010, 08:51 AM
In Martindale, McDaniels figures to have a more obedient defensive coordinator

That pretty much sums it up for me.

Dirk
06-02-2010, 09:07 AM
That pretty much sums it up for me.

He is the boss.

If the DC won't do what the HC wants then there is an issue. Right or wrong, it is McD's team and his head if he fails.

GEM
06-02-2010, 09:11 AM
21-0 means our offensive genius (McD) was shut out until late in the second QTR. It sounds like another immature emotional outburtst on behalf of McD.

If I was Nolan I would have told him to get bent as well. Dont chew my ass for not being able to stop one of the greatest QB's of all time, and you cant even convert a 3rd down against the 18th ranked defense.

It shows deficiency on both sides of the ball. Offense couldn't score and defense couldn't stop. It's not all on McD as you want to make it out to be. You don't blitz Manning, period. If you don't know that....you have no business being a DC.

Lonestar
06-02-2010, 09:17 AM
Well, this doesnt make me too happy to be honest with you. Cause it seems to me that we had a defensive coordinator who didnt like taking orders..............While its easy to see how it could go there (veteran coach with lots of years in the league, known for his defensive prowess, coming from a HC firing.....vs young HC with no experience giving the orders..........) there is no excuse if Nolan started tanking it after this game.

This came from the players mouths.

If Nolan was calling run blitzes against Peyton.......(WHAT????)......the team that passes 99.9% of the time........and the head coach didnt like it and let it be known, then by all means you listen and follow orders.

I for one would consider McDaniels view since he came from a team that had Peytons number for years.

Run blitzes? No wonder they put up 21 on us early. Go back and watch the game. Peyton opens with tons of passing, closes with runs.

And Nolan had us run blitzing? No wonder McD was pissed. He wanted to stay in the base defense in those packages, and I guess we can see why.......hello Dallas Clark.

Anyways, looking to the second half, McD was right.

And then our defense tanked it the rest of the season..........hmmmmm.

Nolan needed to leave.
Looks like he didnt have the humility to respect Joshs position, rather than getting caught up in who had the most years in the league. Look, you had your shot Nolan, so when a rookie comes in and wants to do things his way, you of all people should know that is his right.


Im glad Nolan is gone now that Ive heard this.


Go get um Wink.:salute:

Good post and link.

Now more seems to be coming to light.

IF the players knew of this then HE had to GO.

Did they tank their play in hopes of him gtting fired from that point on?

Did nolan tank his job while setting up the MIA job to get him out of DEN ?

Good posibilities either way.

He had to go OR demure to the HC's wishes. Afterall he got fired as a HC for a reason. He reached his level of incompetence (The Peter Principle).

Sometimes you max out at a certain level and should "get that" all the while being thankful for the job.


Better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove ALL doubt.

Food for thought.
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claymore
06-02-2010, 09:18 AM
It shows deficiency on both sides of the ball. Offense couldn't score and defense couldn't stop. It's not all on McD as you want to make it out to be. You don't blitz Manning, period. If you don't know that....you have no business being a DC.

This is another example of McD having a temper tantrum. Nolan didnt have to take it. Especially when McD couldnt score points to help him out. Nolan carried this team the first half of the year while McD's pathetic shit offense limped into wins.

Unfortunatley for all of us this Is McD's team. So it is all on him.

GEM
06-02-2010, 09:20 AM
This is another example of McD having a temper tantrum. Nolan didnt have to take it. Especially when McD couldnt score points to help him out. Nolan carried this team the first half of the year while McD's pathetic shit offense limped into wins.

Unfortunatley for all of us this Is McD's team. So it is all on him.

Same could be said for Nolan having a temper tantrum because McD didn't like the way he was doing things. It just depends on what perspective you look at it from. Either way it was detrimental to the team and a separation needed to happen. :shrugs:

claymore
06-02-2010, 09:22 AM
Same could be said for Nolan having a temper tantrum because McD didn't like the way he was doing things. It just depends on what perspective you look at it from. Either way it was detrimental to the team and a separation needed to happen. :shrugs:

Well, IMO McD has a history of not getting along with people. Ive never heard of Nolan not getting along with people. So, for me, the benefit of doubt goes to Nolan.

GEM
06-02-2010, 09:25 AM
Well, IMO McD has a history of not getting along with people. Ive never heard of Nolan not getting along with people. So, for me, the benefit of doubt goes to Nolan.

That's because the times he hasn't gotten along have been blown up in the media....do you see any stories running on his tip top relationships? How about with Champ Bailey who says he is one of the smartest football minds he has ever encountered? I shouldn't have used that example as you don't like Champ, but you get my drift. Of course it looks like he doesn't get along with people because it's made the front page in newspapers. But for the 3 people he has openly not gotten along with there are 50 other players, numerous other coaches and asst's that he gets along fine with who have stuck around and continue to have good relationships with.

broncofaninfla
06-02-2010, 09:27 AM
Game day thread
http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92695&highlight=colts


Denver went down 21-0, we answered each of the early TD’s by going 3 and out, Buck got hurt and Moreno got fed the ball way too much as Hillis was ignored as he was all season. Offensively Denver’s short yardage game was nothing short of pathetic. The defense came around after being schooled early and brought Denver back in it, Dawkins had two picks and was a beast. There were A LOT of complaints about Mcd’s play calling and very little about the defense after they regrouped. Ton’s of failed third down conversions, all running plays. A ton of complaints about Mcd’s play calling and Moreno going down with ease.

After a bad start the defense clearly out played the offense and Nolan was clearly the better coach. If this story is true and Nolan and Mcd got into it, Mcd picked a bad game to thump his chest. The play calling on offense was nothing short of pathetic as it was most of the 2009 season.

NightTrainLayne
06-02-2010, 09:27 AM
I always kind of assumed that the two just didn't mesh, or get along the way an HC and his coordinators have to.

That's life, and in Nolan's case the biggest advantage of having his was also a disadvantage. He has a great, proven track record running defenses, and can get a job just about anywhere. It was a great hire, but it wasn't meant to be.

As great as Nolan is, I don't see him as the linch-pin to our success though. We'll be alright.

claymore
06-02-2010, 09:30 AM
That's because the times he hasn't gotten along have been blown up in the media....do you see any stories running on his tip top relationships? How about with Champ Bailey who says he is one of the smartest football minds he has ever encountered? I shouldn't have used that example as you don't like Champ, but you get my drift. Of course it looks like he doesn't get along with people because it's made the front page in newspapers. But for the 3 people he has openly not gotten along with there are 50 other players, numerous other coaches and asst's that he gets along fine with who have stuck around and continue to have good relationships with.

Bailey was a terrible example!!! But I will let that slide. Most players are just trying to make the team, or just dont give a shit. People that disagree with McD disapear. THat is a fact. Thus far I dont think we are any better for it.

Just my opinion.

GEM
06-02-2010, 09:37 AM
Bailey was a terrible example!!! But I will let that slide. Most players are just trying to make the team, or just dont give a shit. People that disagree with McD disapear. THat is a fact. Thus far I dont think we are any better for it.

Just my opinion.


You don't think the same exact thing happened under Shanahan, Clay? How many DC's did we go through? As soon as Sunquist spoke out against Shanny he was gone. It happens on all teams, it's not specific to the Broncos. It just happens to be more eaten up by the media here because the guy came in after a very long tenured coach, he got rid of a guy who could be a Franchise QB, he's made headlines for cussing on tv....he's just a media storm because of position and who he followed.

Ya know, they say following in Elway's footsteps dooms those QB's. Same could be said for those that follow in Shanny's. :shrugs:

And I can respect your opinion, we all have one because of a love we all share, the Broncos. We might not all agree, but I would think we all want the same end result.

claymore
06-02-2010, 09:42 AM
You don't think the same exact thing happened under Shanahan, Clay? How many DC's did we go through? As soon as Sunquist spoke out against Shanny he was gone. It happens on all teams, it's not specific to the Broncos. It just happens to be more eaten up by the media here because the guy came in after a very long tenured coach, he got rid of a guy who could be a Franchise QB, he's made headlines for cussing on tv....he's just a media storm because of position and who he followed.

Ya know, they say following in Elway's footsteps dooms those QB's. Same could be said for those that follow in Shanny's. :shrugs:

And I can respect your opinion, we all have one because of a love we all share, the Broncos. We might not all agree, but I would think we all want the same end result.
OK. I obviously see McD different than some. My main point though was that McD had no room to chew Nolans ass for letting Manning score 21 points. The defense was not the weakness of our team last year.

TXBRONC
06-02-2010, 09:44 AM
It shows deficiency on both sides of the ball. Offense couldn't score and defense couldn't stop. It's not all on McD as you want to make it out to be. You don't blitz Manning, period. If you don't know that....you have no business being a DC.

Agreed. If any team is up on you 21-0 both sides of the ball have responsibility in that. However, I remember the second half of that game the defense did do very good job keeping Manning contained, what did the offense? Not much.

GEM
06-02-2010, 09:46 AM
OK. I obviously see McD different than some. My main point though was that McD had no room to chew Nolans ass for letting Manning score 21 points. The defense was not the weakness of our team last year.

And my point started with....if you're a DC in the NFL, your ass better know that the way to beat Manning is NOT blitzing. :shrugs: I can't blame a person for being passionate. He was pissed off and he let Nolan hear it. I'm sure it happens on football sidelines weekly.

Just be happy this episode didn't happen in Oakland.....Cable would have put Nolan in a coma. :shocked:

GEM
06-02-2010, 09:48 AM
Agreed. If any team is up on you 21-0 both sides of the ball have responsibility in that. However, I remember the second half of that game the defense did do very good job keeping Manning contained, what did the offense? Not much.

Where in any of my comments have I stuck up for the Offense? I don't play the blame game. Nolan is responsible for the defense. He failed the first half and that is when he got his ass chewed. Seems McD's bitch fit worked if Nolan got his Defense to play well after that.

I don't stick up for this offense. It's boring as hell to watch and I think if I have another year of Orton, I'll be napping a lot of 2nd halves.

TXBRONC
06-02-2010, 10:05 AM
Where in any of my comments have I stuck up for the Offense? I don't play the blame game. Nolan is responsible for the defense. He failed the first half and that is when he got his ass chewed. Seems McD's bitch fit worked if Nolan got his Defense to play well after that.

I don't stick up for this offense. It's boring as hell to watch and I think if I have another year of Orton, I'll be napping a lot of 2nd halves.

I didn't impy that you did. If I'm not mistaken I even High-5d your post.

TXBRONC
06-02-2010, 10:08 AM
Originally Posted by GEM
Where in any of my comments have I stuck up for the Offense? I don't play the blame game. Nolan is responsible for the defense. He failed the first half and that is when he got his ass chewed. Seems McD's bitch fit worked if Nolan got his Defense to play well after that.

I don't stick up for this offense. It's boring as hell to watch and I think if I have another year of Orton, I'll be napping a lot of 2nd halves.


I didn't impy that you did. If I'm not mistaken I even High-5d your post.

I checked to see if I had give you a Hi-5 but I forgot. It's there now.

What I was trying to get at is that while in that Colts game, I would put more responsibility on the offense and poor showing we got out of them.

GEM
06-02-2010, 10:11 AM
I didn't impy that you did. If I'm not mistaken I even High-5d your post.

Sorry. Didn't want there to be any mistaking that I am in any way happy with the offense and just using the defense as a scapegoat to change the subject. There is enough goats on this team....the fainting goat that is Mr. Kyle "fall over at the first sign of a pass rush" Orton. :lol:

Ravage!!!
06-02-2010, 10:15 AM
This doesn't suggest that Nolan "tanked" anything. Also.. if the players 'tanked' in order to get the DC fired (as some have suggested).. then EVERY ONE of them should be fired as well.

This was has been some of the biggest criticisms of McD. He wants to be the Offensive Coordinator, and the Defensive Coordinator, and the special teams coach. This happens with young coaches in their first stint at being the boss. They want to be the BOSS of everything, instead of trusting those he has delegated the job too.

Not really a criticism on McD alone. This is common for people in all works of life that have been promoted at a young age, to a position of authority. Letting those under you, do their jobs without trying to micro-manage every single aspect of THEIR job.

So far, this has been pretty consistent with McD, and I think he'll learn from those mistakes....unfortunately, that generally is learned later on another team.

Ravage!!!
06-02-2010, 10:17 AM
And my point started with....if you're a DC in the NFL, your ass better know that the way to beat Manning is NOT blitzing. :shrugs::

Thats true if you can get a pass rush from your DL. We can't. We have to blitz. If you don't try and get SOME kind of pressure on Manning, letting him have that freedom is an absolute sure way not to get a single mistake from him.

missingnumber7
06-02-2010, 10:23 AM
He is the boss.

If the DC won't do what the HC wants then there is an issue. Right or wrong, it is McD's team and his head if he fails.

I agree completely. I find it funny people are arguing over things like this. Its just the media doing things to start stories and find out more. Easy story to write, no one on either side is gonna answer the questions so just add what you know, and speculate a little and you have a nice piece to be printed.

My feelings is that the HC should have an overal picture of a gameplan that is agreed upon by all sides. If ones idea of a gameplan isn't working then the HC has a right to make a change. I think that Nolan did a great job, but he had HC envy because he had held the position before. But how much different had things have been if our D had not been playing well, and we had not started 6-0?

jrelway
06-02-2010, 10:24 AM
And my point started with....if you're a DC in the NFL, your ass better know that the way to beat Manning is NOT blitzing. :shrugs: I can't blame a person for being passionate. He was pissed off and he let Nolan hear it. I'm sure it happens on football sidelines weekly.

Just be happy this episode didn't happen in Oakland.....Cable would have put Nolan in a coma. :shocked:

actually, the way to beat manning is to pressure the guy by blitzing. he'll eat up the cover 2's and 3's all day.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-02-2010, 10:28 AM
In reference to Nolan - let's go back a little in time: Nolan was the HC in San Fran - that in itself might explain that he had a hard time taking orders. I thought the following was interesting in regards to Nolan in San Fran:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3654528

Nolan, 49, was 18-37 as coach of the 49ers. Though the offense improved its scoring under the play calling of offensive coordinator Mike Martz, the defense -- which is Nolan's specialty -- has been inconsistent all season.

Nolan brought back a measure of respectability to the franchise, but the 49ers have had five straight losing seasons and were 4-12, 7-9 and 5-11 in three full seasons in his tenure.

Ravage!!!
06-02-2010, 10:31 AM
I agree completely. I find it funny people are arguing over things like this. Its just the media doing things to start stories and find out more. Easy story to write, no one on either side is gonna answer the questions so just add what you know, and speculate a little and you have a nice piece to be printed.

My feelings is that the HC should have an overal picture of a gameplan that is agreed upon by all sides. If ones idea of a gameplan isn't working then the HC has a right to make a change. I think that Nolan did a great job, but he had HC envy because he had held the position before. But how much different had things have been if our D had not been playing well, and we had not started 6-0?

But the Defense is what gave this team a 6-0 start. That being the case, the defense (and the coordinator) has been doing the job they were delegated to do. You can make up this "HC Envy" all you want, but the truth of the matter is... DCs know their job. Especially one that has MORE success in the NFL at his position, than the HC. Of course the HC has to try and steady the ship. But he can't be successful by taking control of every aspect of the team and attempt to micro-manage everything. If that were the case....lets fire the OC and the DC right now. Save the money, and let McD do all the coaching.

I promise you, they went INTO this game with a game-plan that had been worked out between them. One that they computed out by watching tons of game film, and coming together for a plan that they felt would work best based on the personnel they have on the team, as well as those on the other team. ITs not like Nolan just all-of-a-sudden was doing something different or unexpected. Nor was he making adjustments from the lack of knowledge of the game at hand, nor the game in general. It always comes down to "how you said it" rather than "what was said." I'm sure there is more to this than just "I don't want the run blitz" during the Indy game.

claymore
06-02-2010, 10:37 AM
But the Defense is what gave this team a 6-0 start. That being the case, the defense (and the coordinator) has been doing the job they were delegated to do. You can make up this "HC Envy" all you want, but the truth of the matter is... DCs know their job. Especially one that has MORE success in the NFL at his position, than the HC. Of course the HC has to try and steady the ship. But he can't be successful by taking control of every aspect of the team and attempt to micro-manage everything. If that were the case....lets fire the OC and the DC right now. Save the money, and let McD do all the coaching.

I promise you, they went INTO this game with a game-plan that had been worked out between them. One that they computed out by watching tons of game film, and coming together for a plan that they felt would work best based on the personnel they have on the team, as well as those on the other team. ITs not like Nolan just all-of-a-sudden was doing something different or unexpected. Nor was he making adjustments from the lack of knowledge of the game at hand, nor the game in general. It always comes down to "how you said it" rather than "what was said." I'm sure there is more to this than just "I don't want the run blitz" during the Indy game.

I bet converting 3rd downs was in the Game plan. To bad Our OC couldnt do it.

topscribe
06-02-2010, 10:40 AM
That game was an enigma. I think both coaches might have been caught up in
that enigma. Yes, the Colts went up 21-0, but the defense actually did a pretty
decent job the remainder of the game. Peyton passed for only 220 yards and
had 3 INTs in the process, managing a 65.6 QBR for the game, and the Colts
ran for a total of 95 yards.

Denver actually won the remainder of the game 16-7 and came close to winning
the game overall. Peyton's offense is known for starting fast. It is devastating
until the defense adjusts and settles down a bit, which is what happened here.

Whatever happened between the coaches, I wouldn't say either of them didn't
know what he was talking about. They both probably were reacting from the
shock of Peyton's initial fusillade.

I was a fan of Nolan's, and I am a fan of Wink's. IMO, Nolan could have done a
good job here, and Wink will do a good job.

I hope McDaniels does, too . . .

-----

GEM
06-02-2010, 10:47 AM
actually, the way to beat manning is to pressure the guy by blitzing. he'll eat up the cover 2's and 3's all day.

Pressure...not full on corner and safety blitz. His Oline and receivers are too good for that ish.

missingnumber7
06-02-2010, 10:55 AM
I promise you, they went INTO this game with a game-plan that had been worked out between them. One that they computed out by watching tons of game film, and coming together for a plan that they felt would work best based on the personnel they have on the team, as well as those on the other team. ITs not like Nolan just all-of-a-sudden was doing something different or unexpected. Nor was he making adjustments from the lack of knowledge of the game at hand, nor the game in general. It always comes down to "how you said it" rather than "what was said." I'm sure there is more to this than just "I don't want the run blitz" during the Indy game.

I would hope they went into the game with a gameplan, and probably with a few planned diversions from it. But I think if there was a difference of opinion, it probably came to adjustments that McD wanted done and what Nolans intentions were.

With as quickly and quietly as Nolan took the Miami position, it seems that this happened more than once, and probably became a regular occurance. As far as my HC Envy comment, you cant tell me that going from a HC to a DC is easy. And then on top of it having a young kid telling you how to do your job sits well with someone who has been a HC. I think that probably had just as much to do with him leaving.

arapaho2
06-02-2010, 10:56 AM
Has McDaniels said publically why Mike Nolan was fired? But even more to the point, why Don Martindale was given the defensive coordinator position? Did McDaniels see something special with Wink?
--Mark, Honolulu
As I was told by several players, the beginning of the end for Nolan was the Indianapolis Colts' game — the 13th of the season. To review, the Broncos carried an 8-4 record into that game, having won their last two. McDaniels won the coin toss, deferred, and then Peyton Manning put the Colts up 21-0 after three possessions.

During that 21-0 blitzkrieg, Nolan called some plays — particularly the run-blitz — that McDaniels didn't like. The hostile way McDaniels handled that communication breakdown was not well-received by Nolan. A month and four consecutive losses later, Nolan and McDaniels mutually agreed to part ways, without much comment.
In Martindale, McDaniels figures to have a more obedient defensive coordinator without losing much aggressiveness. (http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14386016) Martindale's background, after all, is rooted in the Buddy-Rex-Rob Ryan defensive school of attack, attack, attack. (http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14298690)

By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15205066


Well, this doesnt make me too happy to be honest with you. Cause it seems to me that we had a defensive coordinator who didnt like taking orders..............While its easy to see how it could go there (veteran coach with lots of years in the league, known for his defensive prowess, coming from a HC firing.....vs young HC with no experience giving the orders..........) there is no excuse if Nolan started tanking it after this game.

This came from the players mouths.

If Nolan was calling run blitzes against Peyton.......(WHAT????)......the team that passes 99.9% of the time........and the head coach didnt like it and let it be known, then by all means you listen and follow orders.

I for one would consider McDaniels view since he came from a team that had Peytons number for years.

Run blitzes? No wonder they put up 21 on us early. Go back and watch the game. Peyton opens with tons of passing, closes with runs.

And Nolan had us run blitzing? No wonder McD was pissed. He wanted to stay in the base defense in those packages, and I guess we can see why.......hello Dallas Clark.

Anyways, looking to the second half, McD was right.

And then our defense tanked it the rest of the season..........hmmmmm.

Nolan needed to leave.
Looks like he didnt have the humility to respect Joshs position, rather than getting caught up in who had the most years in the league. Look, you had your shot Nolan, so when a rookie comes in and wants to do things his way, you of all people should know that is his right.


Im glad Nolan is gone now that Ive heard this.


Go get um Wink.:salute:


gee it wasnt the fact its...payton manning and the colts offense?

or the fact after the first qrt ...the colts only scored one other time?

or the fact we had a total of 180 offensive yards in the first half

or the fact orton had 5 passing yards less than manning in the first half but 14 less points?

or the fact the mcd offense failed to convert two crucial 4th and 1 plays..giveing manning the ball at midfield twice?...by half time

or the fact the defense intercepted manning three times?

no its all on the defense?

jhildebrand
06-02-2010, 11:29 AM
Glad to see this story. I have harped pretty hard on McD for "mutually resigning" Nolan. I could see why McDaniels would have taken issue with Nolan and it was deserved.

I remember the Colts game pissing me off the most. We ran a 3-4-4 alignment. It was stupid. Anybody who knows the Colts knows SD's style of 3-4 is the worst for Manning. The Chargers always beat the Colts, it seems. We have a decent 3-4 and we went away from it for some fancy ass 3-4-4.

The concern I have is Josh McDaniels is confirming the idea that he wants a bunch of yes men around him. Wink will be nothing but a yes man.

Like I said above the concern was warranted but I wouldn't have relieved Nolan at season's end. Especially considering the O was worthless!

Once again we have a scenario where all the scrutiny in the world can be placed on the D side of the ball but that same critical eye isn't cast on the O.

The best coaches in the league let their coaches do what they hired them to do: coach as they see fit.

TXBRONC
06-02-2010, 11:40 AM
Glad to see this story. I have harped pretty hard on McD for "mutually resigning" Nolan. I could see why McDaniels would have taken issue with Nolan and it was deserved.

I remember the Colts game pissing me off the most. We ran a 3-5-5 alignment. It was stupid. Anybody who knows the Colts knows SD's style of 3-4 is the worst for Manning. The Chargers always beat the Colts, it seems. We have a decent 3-4 and we went away from it for some fancy ass 3-5-5.

The concern I have is Josh McDaniels is confirming the idea that he wants a bunch of yes men around him. Wink will be nothing but a yes man.

Like I said above the concern was warranted but I wouldn't have relieved Nolan at season's end. Especially considering the O was worthless!

Once again we have a scenario where all the scrutiny in the world can be placed on the D side of the ball but that same critical eye isn't cast on the O.

The best coaches in the league let their coaches do what they hired them to do: coach as they see fit.

I remember Shanahan getting hammered on this exact thing over and over again but if this is case with McDaniels then guess it ok now.

Norv is a yes man but he is still a very offensive coordinator. Hopefully Martindale is worth his salt then it wont matter.

Lonestar
06-02-2010, 11:52 AM
Glad to see this story. I have harped pretty hard on McD for "mutually resigning" Nolan. I could see why McDaniels would have taken issue with Nolan and it was deserved.

I remember the Colts game pissing me off the most. We ran a 3-5-5 alignment. It was stupid. Anybody who knows the Colts knows SD's style of 3-4 is the worst for Manning. The Chargers always beat the Colts, it seems. We have a decent 3-4 and we went away from it for some fancy ass 3-5-5.

The concern I have is Josh McDaniels is confirming the idea that he wants a bunch of yes men around him. Wink will be nothing but a yes man.

Like I said above the concern was warranted but I wouldn't have relieved Nolan at season's end. Especially considering the O was worthless!

Once again we have a scenario where all the scrutiny in the world can be placed on the D side of the ball but that same critical eye isn't cast on the O.

The best coaches in the league let their coaches do what they hired them to do: coach as they see fit.

overall good post just wanted to add


I think there is a difference in having YES men around you and having someone that follows orders or TAKES criticism without whining about it and leaving.

Nolan was fired for cause in SFO as he was a lousy HC but prior to that was a great DC in most of his stints.

Your correct 3-4 gives manning fits and NE seemed to have their number for years.


not sure who's idea the defense was for the game and who ever is was failed miserably Josh or nolan make no difference.

But to run blitz on Indy is beyond dumb even to blitz him all the time is not always wise UNLESS t comes from unexpected places and is done really well.

There were many reasons (all listed many times before), not excuses, for the O not being what it should have been last year and IF they fix the oline this year then MOST of these reasons will be moot.

Tempus Fugit
06-02-2010, 11:53 AM
A.) Disagreement is fine. But, if you can't handle getting yelled at as a subordinate, football is probably not the field for you. Mr. Nolan is in for a surprise if he thinks it's going to be all chocolates and love notes under Parcells.

B.) Blitzing Manning is fine, as long as you can make him move his feet and knock his receivers off their routes. If the Blitz can't pressure him even that much, you're just giving timing routes one less defender to deal with, and it's going to be open season on the defense. Manning's the second best QB in the game, and nobody makes the timing pass better.

C.) The Colts' run offense stunk on ice last season. I don't know how many run blitzes were being called in that game, but if it was more than a couple, Nolan should have been fired on the spot.

jhildebrand
06-02-2010, 11:59 AM
I think there is a difference in having YES men around you and having someone that follows orders or TAKES criticism without whining about it and leaving.

I guess that is where we depart, JRWIZ. You view it as Nolan left and I view it as he was resigned by McD i.e. fired.

Furthermore, Nolan had nothing but class. Where was it pointed to anywhere that Nolan whined?


not sure who's idea the defense was for the game and who ever is was failed miserably Josh or nolan make no difference.

The 3-4-4 alignment deserved much more heat IMHO than it got. I was LIVID that entire week.

However, none of that excuses or relieves the offense for their piss poor performance. A lot has been said about Marshall and what a POS he is and how he will be so easily replacable BUT look at this game and tell me how that is going to happen. Without Marshall the Broncos are murdered in Indy once again.

The game was a travesty on BOTH sides of the ball. That is my final point I keep harping on. Someone saw it fit to tinker with the D DESPITE their improvement. Changes were made. Yet the offense is viewed with a different eye? :confused: We all know why that is!

Denver Native (Carol)
06-02-2010, 12:03 PM
Buying into the visions a HC has, being on the same page with the HC does NOT mean being a YES man

GEM
06-02-2010, 12:20 PM
A.) Disagreement is fine. But, if you can't handle getting yelled at as a subordinate, football is probably not the field for you. Mr. Nolan is in for a surprise if he thinks it's going to be all chocolates and love notes under Parcells.

B.) Blitzing Manning is fine, as long as you can make him move his feet and knock his receivers off their routes. If the Blitz can't pressure him even that much, you're just giving timing routes one less defender to deal with, and it's going to be open season on the defense. Manning's the second best QB in the game, and nobody makes the timing pass better.

C.) The Colts' run offense stunk on ice last season. I don't know how many run blitzes were being called in that game, but if it was more than a couple, Nolan should have been fired on the spot.


My point exactly earlier in the thread, you said it much better than I.

arapaho2
06-02-2010, 12:30 PM
21-0 means our offensive genius (McD) was shut out until late in the second QTR. It sounds like another immature emotional outburtst on behalf of McD.

If I was Nolan I would have told him to get bent as well. Dont chew my ass for not being able to stop one of the greatest QB's of all time, and you cant even convert a 3rd down against the 18th ranked defense.


not only that but moreno couldnt convert two 4th and 1's to keep drives at midfield going...and thats nolans fault?

arapaho2
06-02-2010, 12:31 PM
That's because the times he hasn't gotten along have been blown up in the media....do you see any stories running on his tip top relationships? How about with Champ Bailey who says he is one of the smartest football minds he has ever encountered? I shouldn't have used that example as you don't like Champ, but you get my drift. Of course it looks like he doesn't get along with people because it's made the front page in newspapers. But for the 3 people he has openly not gotten along with there are 50 other players, numerous other coaches and asst's that he gets along fine with who have stuck around and continue to have good relationships with.


champ also said bob slowick was a great defensive cordinator...for whatever thats worth

arapaho2
06-02-2010, 12:38 PM
And my point started with....if you're a DC in the NFL, your ass better know that the way to beat Manning is NOT blitzing. :shrugs: I can't blame a person for being passionate. He was pissed off and he let Nolan hear it. I'm sure it happens on football sidelines weekly.

Just be happy this episode didn't happen in Oakland.....Cable would have put Nolan in a coma. :shocked:


the only consistant way to beat manning is to have huge pressure and force him to scramble and force things

could our front line do that alone?...not a chance...so you pick your poisen..you blitz and hope to get him or you sit back and let him shred you

what nolan did was brilliant...he took whan manning was doing, adjusted his defense by the 2nd qrt and held him scoreless until late in the forth
what mcd did was amenic..in the first, second, third and forth qrts
by rights who should have gotten a ass chewing ...not nolan

arapaho2
06-02-2010, 12:41 PM
In reference to Nolan - let's go back a little in time: Nolan was the HC in San Fran - that in itself might explain that he had a hard time taking orders. I thought the following was interesting in regards to Nolan in San Fran:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3654528

Nolan, 49, was 18-37 as coach of the 49ers. Though the offense improved its scoring under the play calling of offensive coordinator Mike Martz, the defense -- which is Nolan's specialty -- has been inconsistent all season.

Nolan brought back a measure of respectability to the franchise, but the 49ers have had five straight losing seasons and were 4-12, 7-9 and 5-11 in three full seasons in his tenure.

is that any differant than the offense supposed to be mcds strong point as a offensive genious OC, and it tanked with him as head coach

honz
06-02-2010, 12:41 PM
If we win, no one will care about Mike Nolan and give a bunch of credit to McD for some ballsy decision making. If we lose, everyone will blame McDaniels. Wake me up when the season starts.

honz
06-02-2010, 12:43 PM
the only consistant way to beat manning is to have huge pressure and force him to scramble and force things

could our front line do that alone?...not a chance...so you pick your poisen..you blitz and hope to get him or you sit back and let him shred you

what nolan did was brilliant...he took whan manning was doing, adjusted his defense by the 2nd qrt and held him scoreless until late in the forth
what mcd did was amenic..in the first, second, third and forth qrts
by rights who should have gotten a ass chewing ...not nolan
I'm sure McD wasn't happy with the way his offense performed either...it would be kind of stupid to chew his own ass out though.

arapaho2
06-02-2010, 12:49 PM
I'm sure McD wasn't happy with the way his offense performed either...it would be kind of stupid to chew his own ass out though.


my point is...mcd without a doubt agreed on a game plan with nolan...you all insist he is also responsible for the improved defense

and so it shouldnt be a surprise that manning comes out on fire..teams that beat him match him...we couldnt..once our defense settled in they dominated manning and the colts offense...our offense sucked
had our offense been able to but points on the board instead of giveing him the ball back on a short field because we cant convert two 4th and ones..its a differant ball game

mcd had no business doing what he did to nolan...he should have chewed the OCs ass first..right?

honz
06-02-2010, 01:03 PM
my point is...mcd without a doubt agreed on a game plan with nolan...you all insist he is also responsible for the improved defense

and so it shouldnt be a surprise that manning comes out on fire..teams that beat him match him...we couldnt..once our defense settled in they dominated manning and the colts offense...our offense sucked
had our offense been able to but points on the board instead of giveing him the ball back on a short field because we cant convert two 4th and ones..its a differant ball game

mcd had no business doing what he did to nolan...he should have chewed the OCs ass first..right?
Or maybe he should have been displeased with how both sides of the ball were playing just like us fans were that game. Again, I've never seen someone chew their own ass out, but I'd guarantee McD wasn't happy with how the O was performing. And we all know it's the coaches fault when you lose the LOS battle.

GEM
06-02-2010, 01:49 PM
Or maybe he should have been displeased with how both sides of the ball were playing just like us fans were that game. Again, I've never seen someone chew their own ass out, but I'd guarantee McD wasn't happy with how the O was performing. And we all know it's the coaches fault when you lose the LOS battle.

As it currently stands, it's the coaches fault when the water boy doesn't have the h2o at the proper temperature for player's liking.

Denver Native (Carol)
06-02-2010, 01:56 PM
is that any differant than the offense supposed to be mcds strong point as a offensive genious OC, and it tanked with him as head coach

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15207278


"I would never say I had a good season last year. I didn't," McDaniels offered in a succinct self-appraisal."

Well, so much for ego, arrogance, etc.

Softskull
06-02-2010, 02:01 PM
Your correct 3-4 gives manning fits and NE seemed to have their number for years.



Here's McDaniel's record as a Patriot against the Colts

Date Location Winner Score
Nov. 7, 2005 Foxborough Indianapolis Colts 40-21
Nov. 5, 2006 Foxborough Indianapolis Colts 27-20
Jan. 21, 2007 Indianapolis Indianapolis Colts 38-34
Nov. 4, 2007 Indianapolis New England Patriots 24-20
Nov. 2, 2008 Indianapolis Indianapolis Colts 18-15

arapaho2
06-02-2010, 05:15 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15207278


"I would never say I had a good season last year. I didn't," McDaniels offered in a succinct self-appraisal."

Well, so much for ego, arrogance, etc.

just following up on your point about nolan

nevcraw
06-02-2010, 07:43 PM
As it currently stands, it's the coaches fault when the water boy doesn't have the h2o at the proper temperature for player's liking.

quite the contrary... People go sooooo far out of their way not pin the responsibility on the HC who has let everyone know he pulls the strings..

It was McD who made it clear that he created water.

TXBRONC
06-02-2010, 10:19 PM
Here's McDaniel's record as a Patriot against the Colts

Date Location Winner Score
Nov. 7, 2005 Foxborough Indianapolis Colts 40-21
Nov. 5, 2006 Foxborough Indianapolis Colts 27-20
Jan. 21, 2007 Indianapolis Indianapolis Colts 38-34
Nov. 4, 2007 Indianapolis New England Patriots 24-20
Nov. 2, 2008 Indianapolis Indianapolis Colts 18-15

Sure doesn't appear that the Patriots have given Manning to many fits over that stretch. 4-1 over that time frame, yeah I wouldn't say the Patriots gave to many fits over that stretch.

honz
06-02-2010, 10:44 PM
Sure doesn't appear that the Patriots have given Manning to many fits over that stretch. 4-1 over that time frame, yeah I wouldn't say the Patriots gave to many fits over that stretch.

Clearly Belickick's fault, not the fault of the OC or DC.

Softskull
06-02-2010, 11:14 PM
Clearly Belickick's fault, not the fault of the OC or DC.

I agree. Big Bill should have dry humped his OC/DC for their inadequacies right there on the sidelines. That would have fixed things. Can I say dry hump on this forum?

TXBRONC
06-02-2010, 11:15 PM
Clearly Belickick's fault, not the fault of the OC or DC.

Never said it was.

jrelway
06-02-2010, 11:28 PM
Pressure...not full on corner and safety blitz. His Oline and receivers are too good for that ish.

you gotta bring pressure from every angle to disrupt Manning. Not just up the middle or pressure from the D line alone.

Bosco
06-03-2010, 02:38 AM
This is another example of McD having a temper tantrum. I'd probably be pretty pissed too if horrible play calling lead to a 21 point deficit right out of the gate.


Nolan carried this team the first half of the year while McD's pathetic shit offense limped into wins. Name me one win that was all thanks to the defense.


After a bad start the defense clearly out played the offense and Nolan was clearly the better coach. If this story is true and Nolan and Mcd got into it, Mcd picked a bad game to thump his chest. The play calling on offense was nothing short of pathetic as it was most of the 2009 season. That, and McD ripping Nolan a new ass helped as the bullshit play calling ended.


IThat's life, and in Nolan's case the biggest advantage of having his was also a disadvantage. He has a great, proven track record running defenses, and can get a job just about anywhere. It was a great hire, but it wasn't meant to be.

As great as Nolan is, I don't see him as the linch-pin to our success though. We'll be alright. Nolan's "great track record" includes a single top 5 defensive ranking about 15 years ago, only once holding a job for more than 3 years and even once having to take a job as a receivers coach.

Nolan is an above average DC, but he's several steps below "great".


McD had no room to chew Nolans ass for letting Manning score 21 points. The defense was not the weakness of our team last year. Really? By that point Nolan's defense had been cracked and was getting abused pretty regularly.


This was has been some of the biggest criticisms of McD. He wants to be the Offensive Coordinator, and the Defensive Coordinator, and the special teams coach. This happens with young coaches in their first stint at being the boss. They want to be the BOSS of everything, instead of trusting those he has delegated the job too. McD isn't that much more involved in the individual facets of the game than most other coaches, including Shanahan during his most successful years.


I remember the Colts game pissing me off the most. We ran a 3-4-4 alignment. It was stupid. Anybody who knows the Colts knows SD's style of 3-4 is the worst for Manning. The Chargers always beat the Colts, it seems. We have a decent 3-4 and we went away from it for some fancy ass 3-4-4. The 3-4 is our standard alignment. Our only real change for the Colts game was using the nickle with 4 down lineman as our base.


The concern I have is Josh McDaniels is confirming the idea that he wants a bunch of yes men around him. Wink will be nothing but a yes man. He doesn't want a bunch of yes men around him, just people that share his philosophies on football. Nolan (and to a lesser extent, Dennison and Turner) didn't, so they were replaced with people who do.


Like I said above the concern was warranted but I wouldn't have relieved Nolan at season's end. Especially considering the O was worthless!

Once again we have a scenario where all the scrutiny in the world can be placed on the D side of the ball but that same critical eye isn't cast on the O. What bearing does the offense have on whether Nolan keeps his job or not? When you suffer the kind of epic collapse they did, an under-performing offense isn't an excuse.


Here's McDaniel's record as a Patriot against the Colts

Date Location Winner Score
Nov. 7, 2005 Foxborough Indianapolis Colts 40-21
Nov. 5, 2006 Foxborough Indianapolis Colts 27-20
Jan. 21, 2007 Indianapolis Indianapolis Colts 38-34
Nov. 4, 2007 Indianapolis New England Patriots 24-20
Nov. 2, 2008 Indianapolis Indianapolis Colts 18-15

Add in 6 more wins (2 of them in the playoffs) since 2001, when McD joined the Pats.

Mr D
06-03-2010, 03:46 AM
Wait, so now the HC can't yell at the DC for ******* shit up? I mean it IS Josh's team. He is the HC - and his head is on the line for the game, not Nolan's.

If you prepared heavily for a team and fell 21-0 after the 1st 3 possessions - there's a problem if you're not pissed. I mean we all know Josh is a fiery coach, young, and filled with energy. Are you seriously surprised? It's not about, oh Nolan helped the team to get to that point, it's about ONE GAME AT A TIME, and excelling in the moment - and in that moment Nolan ****** up. You can't be very bright if you think McDaniels had no right to yell at a coach just because he helped the team off to a great start. At the end of the day, McDaniels is the HC, Nolan is the DC.

Get it straight people: this isn't just micro managing. It IS McDaniels job to make sure Nolan is doing his job, and doing it well. I think some of you don't realize that.

If the article is true - Nolan deserves to go. I mean - this is an example of Nolan being unable to deal with the situation - not the other way around. It's natural for Nolan to not feel comfortable for a young coach who is in a higher position than him to be laying the hammer down. Nolan HAD his chance and FAILED. McDaniels had a better 1st season as HC than Nolan did his WHOLE CAREER AT HC. Nolan was probably telling himself, damn, 6-0, this great defense I help built.. I feel like an idiot for ******* up as a coach. He was probably extremely envious of McDaniels at that point in time.

The whole - Josh doesn't know how to manage people is BS. He inherited a situation - and he was probably asked to do things his way and do things that would allow him to win.

As a person - I'd rather turn a situation in my favor and comfort rather than try to deal with it with another person (coaches) shit.

BB is a micro manager...and?

This whole - McDaniels doesn't get along with people is BS too. Someone post up ONE report/article that has a member in the NFL (player, coach) that has said ANYTHING bad about McDaniels. I can post up a lot of good comments - even Woody Paige is starting to turn as if he and McDaniels recently had some "private" time together.

It's clear he wants to do things his way - at the same time he's not screwing one person over. Put yourselves in the shoes of EVERY SINGLE person he's shipped away. He has put people in places where they can be successful, and not screwed a damn person over that used to be in the organization.

He let Nolan go seek another job - no problem - now he's where he wanted to be all along with his friends.
Shipped Marshall back home, into his favorite city in America.
Hillis said nothing but good things - shipped him into a team in which the RB spot is up for grabs.
Dennison got upgraded to OC.
Turner got reunited with Shanahan.
Scheffler got shipped back to his home.
Jay Cutler got shipped to his favorite team, where fans are "better than Denver's," and where the organization is taking orders from him.


Name me one person McDaniels hasn't helped. Please, I dare you to try.

Eddie Royal had a horrible season and Josh has promised him he will do anything he can to get him more involved.

The people that are either shipped away or angered - it usually seems as if it's over how things are done - not the actual coach. They don't like the philosophy, hard work mentality, no favorites mentality, army-like schooling, etc. Maybe Jay Cutler is an exception - but this is a whole different topic.

Ask yourself this - do you really think McDaniels could have pulled off all those trades on draft day if he "couldn't get along" with people?

claymore
06-03-2010, 06:26 AM
I'd probably be pretty pissed too if horrible play calling lead to a 21 point deficit right out of the gate.

Name me one win that was all thanks to the defense.

That, and McD ripping Nolan a new ass helped as the bullshit play calling ended.

Nolan's "great track record" includes a single top 5 defensive ranking about 15 years ago, only once holding a job for more than 3 years and even once having to take a job as a receivers coach.

Nolan is an above average DC, but he's several steps below "great".

Really? By that point Nolan's defense had been cracked and was getting abused pretty regularly.

McD isn't that much more involved in the individual facets of the game than most other coaches, including Shanahan during his most successful years.

The 3-4 is our standard alignment. Our only real change for the Colts game was using the nickle with 4 down lineman as our base.

He doesn't want a bunch of yes men around him, just people that share his philosophies on football. Nolan (and to a lesser extent, Dennison and Turner) didn't, so they were replaced with people who do.

What bearing does the offense have on whether Nolan keeps his job or not? When you suffer the kind of epic collapse they did, an under-performing offense isn't an excuse.



Add in 6 more wins (2 of them in the playoffs) since 2001, when McD joined the Pats.


Wait, so now the HC can't yell at the DC for ******* shit up? I mean it IS Josh's team. He is the HC - and his head is on the line for the game, not Nolan's.

If you prepared heavily for a team and fell 21-0 after the 1st 3 possessions - there's a problem if you're not pissed. I mean we all know Josh is a fiery coach, young, and filled with energy. Are you seriously surprised? It's not about, oh Nolan helped the team to get to that point, it's about ONE GAME AT A TIME, and excelling in the moment - and in that moment Nolan ****** up. You can't be very bright if you think McDaniels had no right to yell at a coach just because he helped the team off to a great start. At the end of the day, McDaniels is the HC, Nolan is the DC.

Get it straight people: this isn't just micro managing. It IS McDaniels job to make sure Nolan is doing his job, and doing it well. I think some of you don't realize that.

If the article is true - Nolan deserves to go. I mean - this is an example of Nolan being unable to deal with the situation - not the other way around. It's natural for Nolan to not feel comfortable for a young coach who is in a higher position than him to be laying the hammer down. Nolan HAD his chance and FAILED. McDaniels had a better 1st season as HC than Nolan did his WHOLE CAREER AT HC. Nolan was probably telling himself, damn, 6-0, this great defense I help built.. I feel like an idiot for ******* up as a coach. He was probably extremely envious of McDaniels at that point in time.

The whole - Josh doesn't know how to manage people is BS. He inherited a situation - and he was probably asked to do things his way and do things that would allow him to win.

As a person - I'd rather turn a situation in my favor and comfort rather than try to deal with it with another person (coaches) shit.

BB is a micro manager...and?

This whole - McDaniels doesn't get along with people is BS too. Someone post up ONE report/article that has a member in the NFL (player, coach) that has said ANYTHING bad about McDaniels. I can post up a lot of good comments - even Woody Paige is starting to turn as if he and McDaniels recently had some "private" time together.

It's clear he wants to do things his way - at the same time he's not screwing one person over. Put yourselves in the shoes of EVERY SINGLE person he's shipped away. He has put people in places where they can be successful, and not screwed a damn person over that used to be in the organization.

He let Nolan go seek another job - no problem - now he's where he wanted to be all along with his friends.
Shipped Marshall back home, into his favorite city in America.
Hillis said nothing but good things - shipped him into a team in which the RB spot is up for grabs.
Dennison got upgraded to OC.
Turner got reunited with Shanahan.
Scheffler got shipped back to his home.
Jay Cutler got shipped to his favorite team, where fans are "better than Denver's," and where the organization is taking orders from him.


Name me one person McDaniels hasn't helped. Please, I dare you to try.

Eddie Royal had a horrible season and Josh has promised him he will do anything he can to get him more involved.

The people that are either shipped away or angered - it usually seems as if it's over how things are done - not the actual coach. They don't like the philosophy, hard work mentality, no favorites mentality, army-like schooling, etc. Maybe Jay Cutler is an exception - but this is a whole different topic.

Ask yourself this - do you really think McDaniels could have pulled off all those trades on draft day if he "couldn't get along" with people?

21-0

IMO, if you are getting your ass kicked that soundly, its hard to chew someones ass when you (McD) isnt doing anything to help.

Nolan was up against Manning. One of the best ever, and McD was up against the 18th ranked defense.

McD can yell at whoever he wants, it just makes him look like a dooshbag when his offense isnt doing anything to help. You cant win if the score is zero to zero. HIS offense needed to help keep manninf off the field. But it couldnt even convert a 3rd down.

claymore
06-03-2010, 06:31 AM
Name me one win that was all thanks to the defense.



I can think of a few. But I also credit luck in alot of our first 6 wins. I cant think of a single game that the offense won for us. Not one single game did the offense take over and methodically shut teams down.

McD's offense is disgusting to watch. Its embarrasing.

Mr D
06-03-2010, 06:41 AM
21-0

IMO, if you are getting your ass kicked that soundly, its hard to chew someones ass when you (McD) isnt doing anything to help.

Nolan was up against Manning. One of the best ever, and McD was up against the 18th ranked defense.

McD can yell at whoever he wants, it just makes him look like a dooshbag when his offense isnt doing anything to help. You cant win if the score is zero to zero. HIS offense needed to help keep manninf off the field. But it couldnt even convert a 3rd down.


No.

McDaniels was up against the whole Colts team and Caldwell.

Nolan was up against just Manning.

This isn't OC vs DC.

Like I said - you clearly don't understand that it is also McDaniels responsibility that the defense performs.

McDaniels help prepare for the offense, defense, and special teams.

Your argument is clearly based off of "yelling." That in itself is a joke. :lol:

Anyways - if it didn't help - then I guess not allowing the Colts to score until just over 2 minutes left in the 4th isn't an indication of anything.

claymore
06-03-2010, 06:47 AM
No.

McDaniels was up against the whole Colts team and Caldwell.

Nolan was up against just Manning.

This isn't OC vs DC.

Like I said - you clearly don't understand that it is also McDaniels responsibility that the defense performs.

McDaniels help prepare for the offense, defense, and special teams.

Your argument is clearly based off of "yelling." That in itself is a joke. :lol:

Anyways - if it didn't help - then I guess not allowing the Colts to score until just over 2 minutes left in the 4th isn't an indication of anything.
Dude, once it was 21-0 they took their foot off or throat. Im sure at no point in the game the colts actually felt threatened.

My argument is based off McD being a shitty offensive Coordinator. His offensive game planning and play calling suck. He should try to correct himself before yelling at a very good DC that was having a bad day against a HOF QB.

If McD was up against the entire colt team then he should have just punched himself in the balls because we got our asses kicked all over the field.

HORSEPOWER 56
06-03-2010, 06:56 AM
He is the boss.

If the DC won't do what the HC wants then there is an issue. Right or wrong, it is McD's team and his head if he fails.

True, but Mike Ditka and Buddy Ryan HATED each other. They still understood that they needed to work together and get along enough to win. After the magical '85 season, Ryan left for a HC gig and the Bears were never the same. Both Ditka's future teams and Ryan's future teams were very mediocre. Sometimes chemistry (for the players, not between coaches) and talent for the betterment of the team outweighs whether or not McD and Nolan could "get along".

I hope Wink knows what he's doing because if this defense, after getting better on the D-line in the offseason, falls back into the 20s from 7th... there's going to be hell to pay in Denver...

Mr D
06-03-2010, 07:11 AM
Dude, once it was 21-0 they took their foot off or throat. Im sure at no point in the game the colts actually felt threatened.

My argument is based off McD being a shitty offensive Coordinator. His offensive game planning and play calling suck. He should try to correct himself before yelling at a very good DC that was having a bad day against a HOF QB.

If McD was up against the entire colt team then he should have just punched himself in the balls because we got our asses kicked all over the field.

Better than half the league in total offense...with Kyle Orton at QB and a depleted oline.

I'm not sure you watched the game.

The game was actually very close in the 4th. After Marshall scored the touchdown with 9:44 to go...the score was 16-21 Colts. Then Manning owned the defense and executes a 14 play, 80 yard drive ending in a TD that took 7:19 seconds off the clock leaving Broncos with 2:25 left down by 2 touchdowns.

Yeah, they took their "foots off the pedal." Manning definitely threw 3 interceptions because he just didn't care. :lol:

claymore
06-03-2010, 07:22 AM
Better than half the league in total offense...with Kyle Orton at QB and a depleted oline.

I'm not sure you watched the game.

The game was actually very close in the 4th. After Marshall scored the touchdown with 9:44 to go...the score was 16-21 Colts. Then Manning owned the defense and executes a 14 play, 80 yard drive ending in a TD that took 7:19 seconds off the clock leaving Broncos with 2:25 left down by 2 touchdowns.

Yeah, they took their "foots off the pedal." Manning definitely threw 3 interceptions because he just didn't care. :lol:

Manning scored when he wanted to. Just like he always does. At no point were we as close in that game as the scoreboard would indicate.

jhildebrand
06-03-2010, 09:59 AM
I'd probably be pretty pissed too if horrible play calling lead to a 21 point deficit right out of the gate.

But the offense gets a free pass for having their opportunities and putting up an astounding 0 points :coffee:



Name me one win that was all thanks to the defense.


Name one win that was all thanks to the offense.



That, and McD ripping Nolan a new ass helped as the bullshit play calling ended.

And you know that how? :confused: You don't know what plays were called. You couldn't possibly know all the changes if any that took place.




The 3-4 is our standard alignment. Our only real change for the Colts game was using the nickle with 4 down lineman as our base.

Go back and look at it. The team ran a 3-4-4 and a 3-3-5. That game alone was why Ty Law was brought in so McD could have an additional DB in the game who was known for giving Manning Fits!



He doesn't want a bunch of yes men around him, just people that share his philosophies on football. Nolan (and to a lesser extent, Dennison and Turner) didn't, so they were replaced with people who do.

Interesting. So I guess he hired Nolan DESPITE the fact Nolan didn't share the same philosophy on football? :confused:



What bearing does the offense have on whether Nolan keeps his job or not? When you suffer the kind of epic collapse they did, an under-performing offense isn't an excuse.

Then the same should hold true for the offensive side of the ball. That's all people want.

Such a collapse finishing 7th in total D. The O never even sniffed top 10 O let alone anything that resembled decent.

Lonestar
06-03-2010, 10:23 AM
Wait, so now the HC can't yell at the DC for ******* shit up? I mean it IS Josh's team. He is the HC - and his head is on the line for the game, not Nolan's.

If you prepared heavily for a team and fell 21-0 after the 1st 3 possessions - there's a problem if you're not pissed. I mean we all know Josh is a fiery coach, young, and filled with energy. Are you seriously surprised? It's not about, oh Nolan helped the team to get to that point, it's about ONE GAME AT A TIME, and excelling in the moment - and in that moment Nolan ****** up. You can't be very bright if you think McDaniels had no right to yell at a coach just because he helped the team off to a great start. At the end of the day, McDaniels is the HC, Nolan is the DC.

Get it straight people: this isn't just micro managing. It IS McDaniels job to make sure Nolan is doing his job, and doing it well. I think some of you don't realize that.

If the article is true - Nolan deserves to go. I mean - this is an example of Nolan being unable to deal with the situation - not the other way around. It's natural for Nolan to not feel comfortable for a young coach who is in a higher position than him to be laying the hammer down. Nolan HAD his chance and FAILED. McDaniels had a better 1st season as HC than Nolan did his WHOLE CAREER AT HC. Nolan was probably telling himself, damn, 6-0, this great defense I help built.. I feel like an idiot for ******* up as a coach. He was probably extremely envious of McDaniels at that point in time.

The whole - Josh doesn't know how to manage people is BS. He inherited a situation - and he was probably asked to do things his way and do things that would allow him to win.

As a person - I'd rather turn a situation in my favor and comfort rather than try to deal with it with another person (coaches) shit.

BB is a micro manager...and?

This whole - McDaniels doesn't get along with people is BS too. Someone post up ONE report/article that has a member in the NFL (player, coach) that has said ANYTHING bad about McDaniels. I can post up a lot of good comments - even Woody Paige is starting to turn as if he and McDaniels recently had some "private" time together.

It's clear he wants to do things his way - at the same time he's not screwing one person over. Put yourselves in the shoes of EVERY SINGLE person he's shipped away. He has put people in places where they can be successful, and not screwed a damn person over that used to be in the organization.

He let Nolan go seek another job - no problem - now he's where he wanted to be all along with his friends.
Shipped Marshall back home, into his favorite city in America.
Hillis said nothing but good things - shipped him into a team in which the RB spot is up for grabs.
Dennison got upgraded to OC.
Turner got reunited with Shanahan.
Scheffler got shipped back to his home.
Jay Cutler got shipped to his favorite team, where fans are "better than Denver's," and where the organization is taking orders from him.


Name me one person McDaniels hasn't helped. Please, I dare you to try.

Eddie Royal had a horrible season and Josh has promised him he will do anything he can to get him more involved.

The people that are either shipped away or angered - it usually seems as if it's over how things are done - not the actual coach. They don't like the philosophy, hard work mentality, no favorites mentality, army-like schooling, etc. Maybe Jay Cutler is an exception - but this is a whole different topic.

Ask yourself this - do you really think McDaniels could have pulled off all those trades on draft day if he "couldn't get along" with people?

:salute:

Great LOGICAL post.

But it will never get past some fans, because in their minds mikey was supposed to be coach for life. Jay was a "franchise" QB. Bm was a probolwer.
Ts was the second coming of SS.

They wanted the offense left alone and only the D fixed.

Lots of emotion for their favs. No thinking of what was really wrong with this team.

To think this KID was going not look and see the facts that ZBS has only won TWO lombardis in all the years they have been playing the game. And those were a decade or more ago with now enough teams going to it that more teams actually have set down and Defensed for it and so far it has been a BLOW inside the red zone since our HOF players retired.

It was time to move on noe it is time for the fans to realize it also.
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jhildebrand
06-03-2010, 10:26 AM
DO YOUR JOB!

That is the mantra of Josh McDaniels and the Broncos. The most ardent supporters of McDaniels eat that ish up especially in the Giants game along with McD's: "All we're trying to do is win a mother ****ing game!"

The free pass McDaniels gets is: he has a bunch of new guys, its a new system, its his first year here, its their first year playing together.

Now fast forward to the Colts game. Nolan, who was in his first year, with a new system, with a bunch of new guys most of whom were cast off scrubs or over the hill vets, their first season playing together had a Defense that was ranked #1 over all for a good portion of the season and finished no worse than 7 is being told how to do "his" job by a person who was doing so many jobs that the one that mattered most (scoring offense) hadn't put up a single point, couldn't convert 4th and 1 (twice), made the decision to go for it on 4th at mid field twice leaving the D with a short field twice, had the arrogance to tell the DC how to do his job.

Why is it Nolan doesn't get all the petty excuses McD does?

If change was so warranted on the D, why isn't equal change on the O necessary considering they had more talent and were in better shape when the season began yet never improved in ANY category let alone finished top 10 in overall O?

The D forced 3 turnovers and finished plus two. Your statistical odds of winning when +2 in turnovers is very very high yet the Broncos still lost.

Finally, I guess it's the D's fault the O was:

0/3 on 4th down twice leaving the D with a short field
6/17 on 3rd down
Orton was 29/41 21 of which were to Marshall some in double and triple coverage (meaning someone else should have been WIDE open)

Denver's O could only manage 50% rz efficiency against the 18th ranked D but Manning and company were 100% RZ efficient (4/4) against the 7th ranked D.

Clearly Nolan should have been fired :rolleyes:

claymore
06-03-2010, 10:26 AM
:salute:

Great LOGICAL post.

But it will never get past some fans, because in their minds mikey was supposed to be coach for life. Jay was a "franchise" QB. Bm was a probolwer.
Ts was the second coming of SS.

They wanted the offense left alone and only the D fixed.

Lots of emotion for their favs. No thinking of what was really wrong with this team.

To think this KID was going not look and see the facts that ZBS has only won TWO lombardis in all the years they have been playing the game. And those were a decade or more ago with now enough teams going to it that more teams actually have set down and Defensed for it and so far it has been a BLOW inside the red zone since our HOF players retired.

It was time to move on noe it is time for the fans to realize it also.
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You are the only one that ever brings Mike Shanahan up.

jhildebrand
06-03-2010, 10:33 AM
They wanted the offense left alone and only the D fixed.


You spend a lot of time trying to insist this is all because the critics are upset about Shanahan or Cutler or BM. I wanted Shanahan gone 3 seasons ago and I was one of the first to turn on Cutler! But I digress.

Regarding the quote above, maybe people expected that because Josh set that expectation. IIRC, he gave a brash interview with Alfred Williams promising the O would remain much the same but BETTER under his guidance.

The O declined. The D improved despite being labeled a 3 season project at best! The D coordinator gets changed and nothing happens to the O. INTERESTING AT BEST!

Oh wait, Ben mcDaniels is our new QB's coach. He is in charge of Tebow's success. A guy who barely played in HS. You telling me there isn't a more qualified QB coach we can have to work with our future Messiah QB? Our first round QB will be left in the hands of nepotism. SWEET!

Pretty sad when even the two biggest McD homers in Mike Evans and DMAC on 104.3 THE FAN are willing to admit McD wants a yes man as D coordinator. Just listen to Alfred Williams, a former D star who knows something about D, even state as much on yesterday's show.

TXBRONC
06-03-2010, 10:33 AM
But the offense gets a free pass for having their opportunities and putting up an astounding 0 points :coffee:



Name one win that was all thanks to the offense.



And you know that how? :confused: You don't know what plays were called. You couldn't possibly know all the changes if any that took place.




Go back and look at it. The team ran a 3-4-4 and a 3-3-5. That game alone was why Ty Law was brought in so McD could have an additional DB in the game who was known for giving Manning Fits!



Interesting. So I guess he hired Nolan DESPITE the fact Nolan didn't share the same philosophy on football? :confused:



Then the same should hold true for the offensive side of the ball. That's all people want.

Such a collapse finishing 7th in total D. The O never even sniffed top 10 O let alone anything that resembled decent.

I can name one game I would give at the very least the lion's share of the credit for the win. Opening game of the season. The offense was horrible all game long. There would have been no chance for that "dumb luck" if defense hadn't of held up all game long.

Btw in our six game winning streak how many times did the defense hold the opposing offenses scoreless in the second half? It was something like five times wasn't it?

claymore
06-03-2010, 10:38 AM
DO YOUR JOB!

That is the mantra of Josh McDaniels and the Broncos. The most ardent supporters of McDaniels eat that ish up especially in the Giants game along with McD's: "All we're trying to do is win a mother ****ing game!"

The free pass McDaniels gets is: he has a bunch of new guys, its a new system, its his first year here, its their first year playing together.

Now fast forward to the Colts game. Nolan, who was in his first year, with a new system, with a bunch of new guys most of whom were cast off scrubs or over the hill vets, their first season playing together had a Defense that was ranked #1 over all for a good portion of the season and finished no worse than 7 is being told how to do "his" job by a person who was doing so many jobs that the one that mattered most (scoring offense) hadn't put up a single point, couldn't convert 4th and 1 (twice), made the decision to go for it on 4th at mid field twice leaving the D with a short field twice, had the arrogance to tell the DC how to do his job.

Why is it Nolan doesn't get all the petty excuses McD does?

If change was so warranted on the D, why isn't equal change on the O necessary considering they had more talent and were in better shape when the season began yet never improved in ANY category let alone finished top 10 in overall O?

The D forced 3 turnovers and finished plus two. Your statistical odds of winning when +2 in turnovers is very very high yet the Broncos still lost.

Finally, I guess it's the D's fault the O was:

0/3 on 4th down twice leaving the D with a short field
6/17 on 3rd down
Orton was 29/41 21 of which were to Marshall some in double and triple coverage (meaning someone else should have been WIDE open)

Denver's O could only manage 50% rz efficiency against the 18th ranked D but Manning and company were 100% RZ efficient (4/4) against the 7th ranked D.

Clearly Nolan should have been fired :rolleyes:


You spend a lot of time trying to insist this is all because the critics are upset about Shanahan or Cutler or BM. I wanted Shanahan gone 3 seasons ago and I was one of the first to turn on Cutler! But I digress.

Regarding the quote above, maybe people expected that because Josh set that expectation. IIRC, he gave a brash interview with Alfred Williams promising the O would remain much the same but BETTER under his guidance.

The O declined. The D improved despite being labeled a 3 season project at best! The D coordinator gets changed and nothing happens to the O. INTERESTING AT BEST!

Oh wait, Ben mcDaniels is our new QB's coach. He is in charge of Tebow's success. A guy who barely played in HS. You telling me there isn't a more qualified QB coach we can have to work with our future Messiah QB? Our first round QB will be left in the hands of nepotism. SWEET!

Pretty sad when even the two biggest McD homers in Mike Evans and DMAC on 104.3 THE FAN are willing to admit McD wants a yes man as D coordinator. Just listen to Alfred Williams, a former D star who knows something about D, even state as much on yesterday's show.

I just wanna say you are killing it today, and I enjoy reading your posts.

claymore
06-03-2010, 10:41 AM
DO YOUR JOB!

That is the mantra of Josh McDaniels and the Broncos. The most ardent supporters of McDaniels eat that ish up especially in the Giants game along with McD's: "All we're trying to do is win a mother ****ing game!"

The free pass McDaniels gets is: he has a bunch of new guys, its a new system, its his first year here, its their first year playing together.

Now fast forward to the Colts game. Nolan, who was in his first year, with a new system, with a bunch of new guys most of whom were cast off scrubs or over the hill vets, their first season playing together had a Defense that was ranked #1 over all for a good portion of the season and finished no worse than 7 is being told how to do "his" job by a person who was doing so many jobs that the one that mattered most (scoring offense) hadn't put up a single point, couldn't convert 4th and 1 (twice), made the decision to go for it on 4th at mid field twice leaving the D with a short field twice, had the arrogance to tell the DC how to do his job.

Why is it Nolan doesn't get all the petty excuses McD does?

If change was so warranted on the D, why isn't equal change on the O necessary considering they had more talent and were in better shape when the season began yet never improved in ANY category let alone finished top 10 in overall O?

The D forced 3 turnovers and finished plus two. Your statistical odds of winning when +2 in turnovers is very very high yet the Broncos still lost.

Finally, I guess it's the D's fault the O was:

0/3 on 4th down twice leaving the D with a short field
6/17 on 3rd down
Orton was 29/41 21 of which were to Marshall some in double and triple coverage (meaning someone else should have been WIDE open)

Denver's O could only manage 50% rz efficiency against the 18th ranked D but Manning and company were 100% RZ efficient (4/4) against the 7th ranked D.

Clearly Nolan should have been fired :rolleyes:


You spend a lot of time trying to insist this is all because the critics are upset about Shanahan or Cutler or BM. I wanted Shanahan gone 3 seasons ago and I was one of the first to turn on Cutler! But I digress.

Regarding the quote above, maybe people expected that because Josh set that expectation. IIRC, he gave a brash interview with Alfred Williams promising the O would remain much the same but BETTER under his guidance.

The O declined. The D improved despite being labeled a 3 season project at best! The D coordinator gets changed and nothing happens to the O. INTERESTING AT BEST!

Oh wait, Ben mcDaniels is our new QB's coach. He is in charge of Tebow's success. A guy who barely played in HS. You telling me there isn't a more qualified QB coach we can have to work with our future Messiah QB? Our first round QB will be left in the hands of nepotism. SWEET!

Pretty sad when even the two biggest McD homers in Mike Evans and DMAC on 104.3 THE FAN are willing to admit McD wants a yes man as D coordinator. Just listen to Alfred Williams, a former D star who knows something about D, even state as much on yesterday's show.

And, Im feeling somewhat sexually vulnerable to you right now.

jhildebrand
06-03-2010, 10:43 AM
I just wanna say you are killing it today, and I enjoy reading your posts.


And, Im feeling somewhat sexually vulnerable to you right now.

Hillarious :lol:

Lonestar
06-03-2010, 10:45 AM
What do Y'all not get.

No matter who would have been at QB. The scheme was totally new to all players and coaches. Terminolgy routes timing etc etc. Combine that with a disintrgration of the interior oline and harrises trip to IR. How can ANYONE say with certaincy that we would have been a better Offensive team those first 6 games.

It is all conjecture if you do. Frankly after seeing jays past play and the scheme I'm not convince he would have bought into it. Marshall was happy with it till he got his 100 RECP and named to the problow. Then he reverted to the old BM. How would jay have done we will never know because he was not mature enough to deal with a frickin phone call.
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TXBRONC
06-03-2010, 11:11 AM
Originally Posted by claymore
And, Im feeling somewhat sexually vulnerable to you right now.


Hillarious :lol:

Run J run!!! :rofl:

Ravage!!!
06-03-2010, 11:17 AM
I can name one game I would give at the very least the lion's share of the credit for the win. Opening game of the season. The offense was horrible all game long. There would have been no chance for that "dumb luck" if defense hadn't of held up all game long.

Btw in our six game winning streak how many times did the defense hold the opposing offenses scoreless in the second half? It was something like five times wasn't it?

five out of 6 games, the other team didn't score in the second half. Against Dallas they didn't score past the first quarter. If your offense can't outscore the other team in 3 quarters of play when facing zero points against..... well...we've seen what happens. Just watch the remaining ten games.

Northman
06-03-2010, 12:08 PM
What do Y'all not get.

No matter who would have been at QB. The scheme was totally new to all players and coaches. Terminolgy routes timing etc etc. Combine that with a disintrgration of the interior oline and harrises trip to IR. How can ANYONE say with certaincy that we would have been a better Offensive team those first 6 games.

It is all conjecture if you do. Frankly after seeing jays past play and the scheme I'm not convince he would have bought into it. Marshall was happy with it till he got his 100 RECP and named to the problow. Then he reverted to the old BM. How would jay have done we will never know because he was not mature enough to deal with a frickin phone call.
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The defensive scheme was new too yet you and the ilk have no problem throwing Nolan under the bus. At least Nolan showed up in 6 games. Where the **** was the offense the entire year?

Bosco
06-03-2010, 02:16 PM
My argument is based off McD being a shitty offensive Coordinator. His offensive game planning and play calling suck. Yeah, that's why his offenses in New England were never less than top 10, including the best offense in league history, and why everyone with a coaching vacancy was falling all over themselves to interview him.


He should try to correct himself before yelling at a very good DC that was having a bad day against a HOF QB

He did. On top of ridding himself of said DC, he also went out and acquired two new quarterbacks, the deep threat WR he was missing last year, Gaffney's replacement, two new interior linemen and brought back Arrington.

claymore
06-03-2010, 02:23 PM
Yeah, that's why his offenses in New England were never less than top 10, including the best offense in league history, and why everyone with a coaching vacancy was falling all over themselves to interview him. They were # 2 last year, and will be top ten again this year. Its not him. Its Brady. weve been over this.




He did. On top of ridding himself of said DC, he also went out and acquired two new quarterbacks, the deep threat WR he was missing last year, Gaffney's replacement, two new interior linemen and brought back Arrington.Fired a highly talented DC for an unknown, brought in a bust QB, a rookie QB, and drafted a broken footed WR. Great moves.

Poet
06-03-2010, 02:28 PM
It shows deficiency on both sides of the ball. Offense couldn't score and defense couldn't stop. It's not all on McD as you want to make it out to be. You don't blitz Manning, period. If you don't know that....you have no business being a DC.

Well, the thing is, you have to blitz him. When Manning has lost in the playoffs, it's been because the other team has gotten to him. The best examples that I can give you is the 05 Pittsburgh vs. Colts game, but the Patriots were finding ways to pressure Manning when they were killing him. The Chargers have always had success against Manning, and they definitely are a blitzing defense.

Granted having the player personnel that either of those teams had is hard to do, but playing coverage against Manning is a pretty safe way to lose. When you give one of the best QBs ever time to analyze the field while the play is going on you're dead.

arapaho2
06-03-2010, 02:31 PM
:salute:

Great LOGICAL post.

But it will never get past some fans, because in their minds mikey was supposed to be coach for life. Jay was a "franchise" QB. Bm was a probolwer.
Ts was the second coming of SS.

They wanted the offense left alone and only the D fixed.

Lots of emotion for their favs. No thinking of what was really wrong with this team.

To think this KID was going not look and see the facts that ZBS has only won TWO lombardis in all the years they have been playing the game. And those were a decade or more ago with now enough teams going to it that more teams actually have set down and Defensed for it and so far it has been a BLOW inside the red zone since our HOF players retired.

It was time to move on noe it is time for the fans to realize it also.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums


you know i noticed your rebuttal for everything is...there all haters....they cant get passed shanny....they still worship cutler

for everything standard cut an paste

Bosco
06-03-2010, 02:55 PM
They were # 2 last year, and will be top ten again this year. Its not him. Its Brady. weve been over this. They were 6th, and in case you forgot they are still running the offense and benefiting from the groundwork McDaniels laid there.

You can try to take the credit away from McDaniels, but those arguments have been shot down more than the Iraqi Air Force.


Fired a highly talented DC Really? Who?


brought in a bust QB From Cleveland.


drafted a broken footed WR. Point being?

claymore
06-03-2010, 03:06 PM
They were 6th, and in case you forgot they are still running the offense and benefiting from the groundwork McDaniels laid there.
They were 3rd. Overall offense not scoring offense. And the groundwork was laid down by weis.


You can try to take the credit away from McDaniels, but those arguments have been shot down more than the Iraqi Air Force.
McD has been far more credit than he deserves. He doesnt need any from me.

Proof is in the pudding. lets see him take our shit offense and make it a top then. Then I will give him credit.

Really? Who?
You know who.

From Cleveland.
Exactly


Point being?
That your deep threat WR has a broken foot!

broncofaninfla
06-03-2010, 03:09 PM
Yeah, that's why his offenses in New England were never less than top 10, including the best offense in league history, and why everyone with a coaching vacancy was falling all over themselves to interview him.

I personally don't give a rats *ss what he did in New England. He hasn't shown anything as a game planner, offensive coordinator, schemer or play caller in Denver. I'm a Broncos fan, not a Patriots fan, he hasn't shown me anything offensively yet. I'm hoping that changes in 2010.......

Bosco
06-03-2010, 03:17 PM
They were 3rd. Overall offense not scoring offense. They were 3rd in yardage, 6th in points.

You tell me which one is more relevant.


And the groundwork was laid down by weis. Somewhat. He installed his version of the offense, when McD took over he made many changes though.


McD has been far more credit than he deserves. He doesnt need any from me. Can I get that in English please?


Proof is in the pudding. lets see him take our shit offense and make it a top then. Then I will give him credit. Noted for future reference.


You know who. No I really don't. All I see is this slightly above average journey man DC named Mike Nolan. He's like the Kyle Orton of defensive coordinators.


That your deep threat WR has a broken foot! So what? Players break bones all the time. You act like the guy is permanently damaged goods because of it.

Bosco
06-03-2010, 03:19 PM
I personally don't give a rats *ss what he did in New England. You should.

claymore
06-03-2010, 03:22 PM
They were 3rd in yardage, 6th in points.

You tell me which one is more relevant. Every stat site in the world uses yardage as an overall offensive ranking. If you want it ranked by points you have to clarify.


Somewhat. He installed his version of the offense, when McD took over he made many changes though.
Yeah, "throw the ball to randy moss, if he is covered throw it to Wes welker. Thanks Tom Brady Sir"


Can I get that in English please?
You know what I meant.


Noted for future reference.
Sweet


No I really don't. All I see is this slightly above average journey man DC named Mike Nolan. He's like the Kyle Orton of defensive coordinators.
He was the best coach on our team. Now Martindale is. Chris Simms is our HC.


So what? Players break bones all the time. You act like the guy is permanently damaged goods because of it.With our medical staff he might not even live to see his signing bonus.

arapaho2
06-03-2010, 03:23 PM
bosco


you should




the jets did with mangini..as did the browns with romeo

yeah that success in NE really paid dividends for those teams

arapaho2
06-03-2010, 03:30 PM
.

So what? Players break bones all the time. You act like the guy is permanently damaged goods because of it.


yep but when you trade a 25 yr old 2 time probolw wr who has caught 100 balls a season fo the past three seasons...you expect the guy you drafted to replace him

to be catching balls...not carrying them for the practice...to be learning in ota's, taking snaps
will he be ready for TC...how far down the sheet is he? will he be able to get into games being behind like he is?

Bosco
06-03-2010, 03:35 PM
yep but when you trade a 25 yr old 2 time probolw wr who has caught 100 balls a season fo the past three seasons...you expect the guy you drafted to replace him

Except we didn't draft him to replace Marshall. We drafted him to fill the spot that we tried stuffing Eddie Royal into last year.

Gaffney is replacing Marshall, and he himself will probably get replaced by Decker by next year, or 2012 at latest.

arapaho2
06-03-2010, 03:50 PM
Except we didn't draft him to replace Marshall. We drafted him to fill the spot that we tried stuffing Eddie Royal into last year.

Gaffney is replacing Marshall, and he himself will probably get replaced by Decker by next year, or 2012 at latest.


you mean we stuffed royal in the same position he caught 92 passes in in 08

in 08 we had marshall...royal and stokely in the slot

if gaffeney is mcd plan for replacing marshall



we are in a world of shit

Bosco
06-03-2010, 04:13 PM
you mean we stuffed royal in the same position he caught 92 passes in in 08 Not even close.


in 08 we had marshall...royal and stokely in the slot Two totally different offenses.


if gaffeney is mcd plan for replacing marshall



we are in a world of shit And this is where you continue to destroy your credibility.

Look, we don't run the West Coast Offense anymore. In McDaniels offense we have an X receiver (Moss in NE) who needs to be tall and fast to stretch defenses deep and open up the shorter passing game. This is why we drafted Thomas, as we didn't have one of these last year and played Royal there since he was the only one with the deep speed needed to play this.

Next, you have the Z receiver. This is what Welker plays in NE and what Royal will be playing here from now on. This guy runs short, high percentage passing routes. He is more closely related to the slot guy in a WCO offense although he's either the #1 or #2 progression in this offense.

Your 3rd receiver is the Y receiver. This is the guy who specializes in the 10-15 yard intermediate routes where you catch the ball and fight through traffic. Marshall was very good in this role, and so is Gaffney. The problem is that this is supposed to be the 3rd progression in our offense, but we had to turn our offense on it's head and make it the #1 progression because it's the only one Marshall was a fit for.

Anyways, long story short is that yes, Gaffney is replacing Marshall, but not as the #1 receiver, so you can breathe easy.

arapaho2
06-03-2010, 04:29 PM
Not even close.

Two totally different offenses.

And this is where you continue to destroy your credibility.

Look, we don't run the West Coast Offense anymore. In McDaniels offense we have an X receiver (Moss in NE) who needs to be tall and fast to stretch defenses deep and open up the shorter passing game. This is why we drafted Thomas, as we didn't have one of these last year and played Royal there since he was the only one with the deep speed needed to play this.

Next, you have the Z receiver. This is what Welker plays in NE and what Royal will be playing here from now on. This guy runs short, high percentage passing routes. He is more closely related to the slot guy in a WCO offense although he's either the #1 or #2 progression in this offense.

Your 3rd receiver is the Y receiver. This is the guy who specializes in the 10-15 yard intermediate routes where you catch the ball and fight through traffic. Marshall was very good in this role, and so is Gaffney. The problem is that this is supposed to be the 3rd progression in our offense, but we had to turn our offense on it's head and make it the #1 progression because it's the only one Marshall was a fit for.

Anyways, long story short is that yes, Gaffney is replacing Marshall, but not as the #1 receiver, so you can breathe easy.

my cred is fine...better check whats left of yours

heres thomas draft bio:
Thomas has rare measurables for the wide receiver position and will be a very attractive gamble for some team after the first round. He shows excellent vertical speed, especially for someone his size, and can be intimidating to a cornerback when isolated on the perimeter. He has the size of a tight end with the speed, agility and ball skills of a wide receiver. He needs a lot of work on his route running skills as he tends to round off his breaks and will telegraph his routes with too much upper body movement. He can make acrobatic type catches but will drop some very catchable passes due to lapses in concentration. He is not a very physical blocker on the edge in spite of his massive size advantage. In a recent workout, Thomas broke his foot and will be unable to participate in combine drills.

so that leaves me so confindent:coffee:

Bosco
06-03-2010, 04:36 PM
my cred is fine...better check whats left of yours

heres thomas draft bio:
Thomas has rare measurables for the wide receiver position and will be a very attractive gamble for some team after the first round. He shows excellent vertical speed, especially for someone his size, and can be intimidating to a cornerback when isolated on the perimeter. He has the size of a tight end with the speed, agility and ball skills of a wide receiver. He needs a lot of work on his route running skills as he tends to round off his breaks and will telegraph his routes with too much upper body movement. He can make acrobatic type catches but will drop some very catchable passes due to lapses in concentration. He is not a very physical blocker on the edge in spite of his massive size advantage. In a recent workout, Thomas broke his foot and will be unable to participate in combine drills.

so that leaves me so confindent:coffee:

So what does any of that have to do with my credibility?

arapaho2
06-03-2010, 04:47 PM
So what does any of that have to do with my credibility?


same thing my posts had to do with mine....right?

Bosco
06-03-2010, 04:48 PM
same thing my posts had to do with mine....right?

Failing to understand how our offense works and the players fit within it?

No, I think I've got that covered better than a vast majority of fans.

Poet
06-03-2010, 05:07 PM
Nolan is a journeyman? He's one of the better DC's in the game. Is he a Dick LeBeau or a Rex Ryan? No. But your defense overachieved, in large part of him.

It's often been said that only 10 or so guys in the NFL actually know how to call a game with the 3-4 defense. I have no clue if Martingdale can do so, but I do know that you lost a guy who sure as hell can. This move hurt. I don't think we will ever really know why Nolan is in Miami and not Denver, but you guys didn't gain anything.

Bosco
06-03-2010, 05:10 PM
Nolan is a journeyman? He's one of the better DC's in the game. Is he a Dick LeBeau or a Rex Ryan? No. But your defense overachieved, in large part of him. 6th stop as a DC, only one more than 3 years in tenure and a single top 5 defense?

Yeah, he's a journeyman.

arapaho2
06-03-2010, 05:20 PM
Failing to understand how our offense works and the players fit within it?

No, I think I've got that covered better than a vast majority of fans.


yes you showed that with your theory that solid high preforming, no trouble causeing, team oriented players

need to fear for their jobs if another of the coaches favorite teams players is released...even if that released player isnt any better than the rock solid bronco

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Poet
06-03-2010, 05:32 PM
6th stop as a DC, only one more than 3 years in tenure and a single top 5 defense?

Yeah, he's a journeyman.

But his defenses were always pretty good. A 'journeyman' is a person who travels around and is pretty 'meh' at their job. He's a good DC.

TXBRONC
06-03-2010, 05:36 PM
Nolan is a journeyman? He's one of the better DC's in the game. Is he a Dick LeBeau or a Rex Ryan? No. But your defense overachieved, in large part of him.

It's often been said that only 10 or so guys in the NFL actually know how to call a game with the 3-4 defense. I have no clue if Martingdale can do so, but I do know that you lost a guy who sure as hell can. This move hurt. I don't think we will ever really know why Nolan is in Miami and not Denver, but you guys didn't gain anything.

He is a very good defensive coordinator. Journeyman? Not by a long shot. Give him the players that LeBeau had and let's see what happens. Calling him a journeyman is ignorance.

The move only hurts if Martindale doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground. That being said every coordinator has a starting point. One thing we do know is that Martindale isn't completely without experience running a defense he did it at the college level. I'm not saying that means he will be successful that remains to be seen but he has least done this job at some level.

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 05:41 PM
This is another example of McD having a temper tantrum. Nolan didnt have to take it. Especially when McD couldnt score points to help him out. Nolan carried this team the first half of the year while McD's pathetic shit offense limped into wins.

Unfortunatley for all of us this Is McD's team. So it is all on him.

Somehow, clay, I highly doubt you'd be saying the same, if the coach were Shanny.

But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. ;-)

Tned-Mobile
06-03-2010, 05:51 PM
Somehow, clay, I highly doubt you'd be saying the same, if the coach were Shanny.

But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. ;-)

Honest question. Why is is that you and a couple of your buds have to respond to any and all criticism of McDaniels, warranted or not, by bringing Shanahan or 'Mikey' into the conversation?

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 06:17 PM
Bailey was a terrible example!!! But I will let that slide. Most players are just trying to make the team, or just dont give a shit. People that disagree with McD disapear. THat is a fact. Thus far I dont think we are any better for it.

Just my opinion.

There was nothing known as "shanny's doghouse" either. :rolleyes:
ie. Poorti$$

T.K.O.
06-03-2010, 06:30 PM
Honest question. Why is is that you and a couple of your buds have to respond to any and all criticism of McDaniels, warranted or not, by bringing Shanahan or 'Mikey' into the conversation?

i think because shanny was given a pass (warrented or not) by most fans for many mistakes ,whereas mcD gets grilled for almost every move all the while being called an egomaniac and a million mc Du ? names,based mostly on speculation at this point.:salute:
not to mention shanny has been the coach for a large portion of many fans history with the team and the most recent for comparison purposes

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 06:36 PM
OK. I obviously see McD different than some. My main point though was that McD had no room to chew Nolans ass for letting Manning score 21 points. The defense was not the weakness of our team last year.

I think MOST will agree, that defenses start out the season ahead of the offenses. Yes? Especially with an "unknown", as was the case last year. Opponents didn't know what they were getting.

Have you looked at the incredible disparity between BEFORE the bye and AFTER, in relations to the defense, clay? Or are you just going to sit there and cite how great they were wks 1-6? Opponents adjusted. Nolan didn't/couldn't/wouldn't...take your pick.

5 of the last 9 games, they gave up MORE than 170yds rushing/game...240+ to Oak, topped off with 300+ to KC! (defense NOT the weakness??????)

Denver outgained Indy, and had less TO's. But when you give up 21 consecutive pts to begin the game, you're most likely screwed. That fell on the defense (nolan). Evidently, the butt chewing he got worked since Indy only scored 7 more points. In the meantime, Orton & co. clawed their way back to within 5pts, only to see the defense again fail. And frankly, it looked like Manning was content with the lead up until that point, otherwise who knows how many points they could have put up.

TXBRONC
06-03-2010, 06:39 PM
i think because shanny was given a pass (warrented or not) by most fans for many mistakes ,whereas mcD gets grilled for almost every move all the while being called an egomaniac and a million mc Du ? names,based mostly on speculation at this point.:salute:
not to mention shanny has been the coach for a large portion of many fans history with the team and the most recent for comparison purposes

That b.s. because the same people pissing and moaning about any criticism of McDaniels were also pissing and moaning about Shanahan making the exact same moves.

If a person disagrees with criticism leveled at McDaniels then by all mean defend him. Bringing in Shanahan who isn't the coach here anymore is pointless at best and baiting at worst.

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 06:44 PM
actually, the way to beat manning is to pressure the guy by blitzing. he'll eat up the cover 2's and 3's all day.

That's funny. Because listening to actual football people (they get paid), they say blitzing Manning is the WORST thing to do. He'll find the open man and eat you UP!

What they DO say to do, though, is bring pressure from the front line, not letting him know where additional pressure is coming from, thus leaving enough people to flood the zones and still cover.

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 07:00 PM
Never said it was.



Originally Posted by honz View Post
Clearly Belickick's fault, not the fault of the OC or DC.


Rule 487: Only TXBRONC can have it both ways.

:laugh:

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 07:09 PM
21-0

IMO, if you are getting your ass kicked that soundly, its hard to chew someones ass when you (McD) isnt doing anything to help.

Nolan was up against Manning. One of the best ever, and McD was up against the 18th ranked defense.

McD can yell at whoever he wants, it just makes him look like a dooshbag when his offense isnt doing anything to help. You cant win if the score is zero to zero. HIS offense needed to help keep manninf off the field. But it couldnt even convert a 3rd down.

12-0.

Maybe you forgot what Indy's record was at the time.

Hmmmm......maybe you don't have to have a top 10 defense if your offense can get a quick lead, and then let the defense pin their ears back and attack the LOS.
Seems that's what Indy's persona has been, the last gazillion years (it seems).
The fact that things improved and denver was even close after the first 3 Indy drives should be a good reflection on the coaching/game planning of ALL involved. Upto and most importantly including, the HC.

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 07:17 PM
Dude, once it was 21-0 they took their foot off or throat. Im sure at no point in the game the colts actually felt threatened.

My argument is based off McD being a shitty offensive Coordinator. His offensive game planning and play calling suck. He should try to correct himself before yelling at a very good DC that was having a bad day against a HOF QB.

If McD was up against the entire colt team then he should have just punched himself in the balls because we got our asses kicked all over the field.

Thats not what the stats show. Den-357yds vs 312yds-Indy

That's not what the score showed, after the first 21pts. Den-16pts vs Indy 7pts

And why WOULD Indy feel threatened, after 3/3 TD drives? Afterall, they're not.......New England. :lol:

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 07:27 PM
But the offense gets a free pass for having their opportunities and putting up an astounding 0 points :coffee:



Name one win that was all thanks to the offense.



And you know that how? :confused: You don't know what plays were called. You couldn't possibly know all the changes if any that took place.




Go back and look at it. The team ran a 3-4-4 and a 3-3-5. That game alone was why Ty Law was brought in so McD could have an additional DB in the game who was known for giving Manning Fits!



Interesting. So I guess he hired Nolan DESPITE the fact Nolan didn't share the same philosophy on football? :confused:



Then the same should hold true for the offensive side of the ball. That's all people want.

Such a collapse finishing 7th in total D. The O never even sniffed top 10 O let alone anything that resembled decent.

Giving up 162yds/game on the ground over the last 9wks is NOT akin to having a #7 ranked defense. Soooory.

Nolan got figured out, and couldn't adjust when necessary.

I'm sure part of the reason is personnel. Afterall, the NFL is a league of players, not schemes. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter who was putting on the uni's, now would it.:confused:

turftoad
06-03-2010, 07:29 PM
Giving up 162yds/game on the ground over the last 9wks is NOT akin to having a #7 ranked defense. Soooory.

Nolan got figured out, and couldn't adjust when necessary.

I'm sure part of the reason is personnel. Afterall, the NFL is a league of players, not schemes. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter who was putting on the uni's, now would it.:confused:

To bad this is not McD's thinking. :tsk:

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 07:32 PM
Denver's O could only manage 50% rz efficiency against the 18th ranked D but Manning and company were 100% RZ efficient (4/4) against the 7th ranked D.

Clearly Nolan should have been fired :rolleyes:

Finally seeing the light, I see.:coffee:


Couldn't have said it better, myself. :wink:

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 07:36 PM
You are the only one that ever brings Mike Shanahan up.


Jr has balls. :salute:

The rest of ya CLEARLY are using shanny as your benchmark, but are afraid to declare it, publicly.

Jay-jay, when talking about Orton.

Next will be BM when talking wr's......

Turner, when talking rb coaching......

Not rocket science. :rolleyes:

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 08:08 PM
But his defenses were always pretty good. A 'journeyman' is a person who travels around and is pretty 'meh' at their job. He's a good DC.

Really?

Other than following other good DC's that started the ball in motion, I've yet to see where he really has lit the world afire.

And he can't be TOO good, if ESPN can't even get it right.

According to ESPN, Nolan was at San Fran last year:



YEAR TEAM G W L T PCT
2009 San Francisco 49ers 11 5 6 0 .455
2008 San Francisco 49ers 7 2 5 0 .286
2007 San Francisco 49ers 16 5 11 0 .313
2006 San Francisco 49ers 16 7 9 0 .438
2005 San Francisco 49ers 16 4 12 0 .250
CAREER 5 years 66 23 43 0 .348
http://espn.go.com/nfl/players/coach?id=48

Poet
06-03-2010, 08:12 PM
You linked me his head coach stats, not his DC stats.......

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 08:14 PM
To bad this is not McD's thinking. :tsk:

How do you figure it isn't, turf?

He's constantly bringing in better players, right?

I highly doubt Mr Bowlen said "now, Josh, I want you to run the identical schemes/plays that my buddy Mike ran, ok?"

rcsodak
06-03-2010, 08:19 PM
You linked me his head coach stats, not his DC stats.......

Can't find them to save my life, king.

Maybe you can have better luck.

I honestly don't feel like going back through his past teams' stats. I know he started out with Denver back in '87 as an asst.....

For one, the game has changed since he was last a DC. Evidently, he hasn't/can't/won't?

Medford Bronco
06-03-2010, 08:33 PM
With this forum old stuff never goes away. :rolleyes:

I like what Nolan did here but he is gone now and not coming back.

Its just like the Cutler crap that is forever regurgitated (sp)

So sad.

I am a Bronco fan and root for them. everyone else, unless I have $ on them in a pool can go screw.

TXBRONC
06-03-2010, 08:48 PM
Rule 487: Only TXBRONC can have it both ways.

:laugh:

Don't have better answer huh?

Figures.

TXBRONC
06-03-2010, 08:53 PM
Jr has balls. :salute:

The rest of ya CLEARLY are using shanny as your benchmark, but are afraid to declare it, publicly.

Jay-jay, when talking about Orton.

Next will be BM when talking wr's......

Turner, when talking rb coaching......

Not rocket science. :rolleyes:

This all you're doing: :hurt:

jrelway
06-03-2010, 09:04 PM
That's funny. Because listening to actual football people (they get paid), they say blitzing Manning is the WORST thing to do. He'll find the open man and eat you UP!

What they DO say to do, though, is bring pressure from the front line, not letting him know where additional pressure is coming from, thus leaving enough people to flood the zones and still cover.

blitzing manning is the worse thing to do? tell that to the patriots when they owned his ass for all those years. BTW, what football people said blitzing manning is the worse thing to do?

Mr D
06-03-2010, 09:14 PM
blitzing manning is the worse thing to do? tell that to the patriots when they owned his ass for all those years. BTW, what football people said blitzing manning is the worse thing to do?

http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=manning&playerid=327&group=3

says his 93.6 passer rating when blitzed.

Softskull
06-03-2010, 09:17 PM
http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=manning&playerid=327&group=3

says his 93.6 passer rating when blitzed.

But his overall passer rating is 95.2 and unpressured is 105.8. I'll take the 93.6 anytime.

jrelway
06-03-2010, 09:22 PM
so the real way to beat manning is to sit back in zone or man coverage while you rely on your front 3 or 4 to get pressure right? LOL

Mr D
06-03-2010, 09:25 PM
Manning scored when he wanted to. Just like he always does. At no point were we as close in that game as the scoreboard would indicate.

:lol:

Good indicator on your credibility.

Mr D
06-03-2010, 09:29 PM
so the real way to beat manning is to sit back in zone or man coverage while you rely on your front 3 or 4 to get pressure right? LOL

The real way is to play solid football on both sides of the ball.

Mr D
06-03-2010, 09:32 PM
But his overall passer rating is 95.2 and unpressured is 105.8. I'll take the 93.6 anytime.

:tsk: Yeah, using 2nd grade logic is great way to translate ideas onto the football field.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5206/seriouslym.jpg

Bosco
06-03-2010, 09:34 PM
But his defenses were always pretty good. A 'journeyman' is a person who travels around and is pretty 'meh' at their job. He's a good DC.

The average ranking of his defenses is 16th.

TXBRONC
06-03-2010, 09:47 PM
But his overall passer rating is 95.2 and unpressured is 105.8. I'll take the 93.6 anytime.

It still seems that teams that have had success against have gotten pressure on, you have knock down, and sack him. It's obviously a risk but sitting back will only get you carved up like a Christmas turkey.

I watched the Colts play the Dolphins this past season and I don't recall the Dolphins getting much pressure on him all night long. Look what happened, for the entire game Manning had just under 15 minutes of playing and yet they still Dolphins.

Lonestar
06-03-2010, 10:29 PM
Jr has balls. :salute:

The rest of ya CLEARLY are using shanny as your benchmark, but are afraid to declare it, publicly.

Jay-jay, when talking about Orton.

Next will be BM when talking wr's......

Turner, when talking rb coaching......

Not rocket science. :rolleyes:

Guess they did not get the memo. That we all know they compare Josh to mikey but won't take authorship for it.

Hell most of them were weaned on mikeys teat so know no one else but him. If they would not whime so loud like most of the old timers who KNEW bad coaching form pre Pat days, it would not be so transparent.
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Softskull
06-03-2010, 10:30 PM
:tsk: Yeah, using 2nd grade logic is great way to translate ideas onto the football field.


Yikes. I'll have to scold my professors for failing me. Maybe I shouldn't have used that stats you provided.

You seem to think that Nolan was going to suddenly find a dLine that was able to get to Manning. It was a game with zero sacks. Denver had one player with over five sacks last year. Denver didnt have a single player in the top 20 in QB hits last year. So where do you think this majical pressure was going to come from? We still have talent issues that Nolan had to work around.

Lonestar
06-03-2010, 10:43 PM
The real way is to play solid football on both sides of the ball.

and most of all have a good running game to eat the clock. if manning does not have the ball he can't beat you. or at least the odds are he can't ..

Mr D
06-03-2010, 10:46 PM
Yikes. I'll have to scold my professors for failing me. Maybe I shouldn't have used that stats you provided.

You seem to think that Nolan was going to suddenly find a dLine that was able to get to Manning. It was a game with zero sacks. Denver had one player with over five sacks last year. Denver didnt have a single player in the top 20 in QB hits last year. So where do you think this majical pressure was going to come from? We still have talent issues that Nolan had to work around.

I think you're misunderstanding me.

I'm not defending to not blitz Manning, I simply responded to why people say that blitzing Manning doesn't work.

There is a reason why teams blitzed Manning 27% of the time when comparing blitzing and no pressure. I don't know how those stats are exactly calculated - but my point is you have to do your best to confuse Manning and by alternating attempts at getting pressure - whether you're aggressively doing it or not.

With that being said - you have to play solid offense in order for all this to work - because this is what TRULY creates pressure on Manning to score - and when you combine that with pressure from your D you will create a higher probability of forcing Manning to make mistakes - ala New Orleans Saints.

In regards to the article - I'm no X and O guru however I believe they specified that the McDaniels was pissed that he was RUN blitzing - so you'd kind of have to understand that before you start jumping in on assuming all blitzing is the same. There is a reason they specified RUN blitzing as to PASS blitzing.

jrelway
06-03-2010, 10:50 PM
just do what the saints did and keep up with him on scoring points.

TXBRONC
06-03-2010, 11:09 PM
and most of all have a good running game to eat the clock. if manning does not have the ball he can't beat you. or at least the odds are he can't ..

This past season Manning had the ball just under 15 minutes for the entire game against the Dolphins and the Colts still won the game.

GGMoogly
06-04-2010, 01:31 AM
This past season Manning had the ball just under 15 minutes for the entire game against the Dolphins and the Colts still won the game.

That's what a first-vote Hall of Famer looks like.

Poet
06-04-2010, 02:54 AM
The average ranking of his defenses is 16th.

That's nice, now show me all the rankings. I want the actual context of them, too. For instance, if he failed miserably in Denver this year I couldn't play him because he had a handful (and I'm being generous) of good players.

Mr D
06-04-2010, 03:22 AM
That's nice, now show me all the rankings. I want the actual context of them, too. For instance, if he failed miserably in Denver this year I couldn't play him because he had a handful (and I'm being generous) of good players.


Doesn't really matter - all you need to know is that he doesn't exactly deserve as much credit as people are giving him.

I'm still wondering why people haven't brought up the fact that McDaniels hand picked all the players on defense. Yes - all of them.

Let's take a look at his stint with the Niners:

He had full control over personnel and his defense ranks like this


2005 32nd in the league (LAST) < --- there is really no reason or excuse for this
2006 26th in the league
2007 25th in the league
2008 fired half way through the season when the team was 2-5.. defense finished 13th however it was ranked down low at the point he was fired


Now - you're telling me you have 4 FULL off seasons to build your SPECIALTY, a competent defense (let ALONE a competent TEAM that he's responsible for as HC), and you FAILED that miserably? He was GM for the first 3 off seasons.

However, when he comes to Denver - and the HEAD COACH, JOSH MCDANIELS, hand picks every single addition in players and sets the scheme he (JOSH) wants to run...somehow Mike Nolan is running away with all this credit?

Mike Nolan couldn't do shit through 4 off seasons with the Niners where in 3 consecutive ones he had FULL CONTROL... WTF makes you think he came to Denver and somehow deserves all this credit?

Mike Nolan has already proved he's incompetent as a HC, and inconsistent as a DC. He knew he wasn't going to get full control over personnel in Denver.

After looking back at it, it's not that surprising how things turned out. Nolan and McDaniels have the same agent which is the primary reason they most likely initially got hooked up.

I'm kind of actually CONFUSED on what EXACTLY he's getting so much credit for. Is it the scheme? McDaniels wanted a certain scheme and Nolan was told to run it. Is it the personnel? Nolan has already proved he doesn't really have an eye for talent. I mean WHAT EXACTLY are you giving him credit for? Is it defensive execution? Because by now I think everyone knows McDaniels had his hand in every facet of the game.

So please, clarify what EXACTLY Nolan is getting credit for. :lol:

For real though - this is all really a joke.

McDaniels at 34 and has already had a better career than Mike Nolan.

Let's move on.

claymore
06-04-2010, 06:37 AM
Jr has balls. :salute:

The rest of ya CLEARLY are using shanny as your benchmark, but are afraid to declare it, publicly.

Jay-jay, when talking about Orton.

Next will be BM when talking wr's......

Turner, when talking rb coaching......

Not rocket science. :rolleyes:


Guess they did not get the memo. That we all know they compare Josh to mikey but won't take authorship for it.

Hell most of them were weaned on mikeys teat so know no one else but him. If they would not whime so loud like most of the old timers who KNEW bad coaching form pre Pat days, it would not be so transparent.
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I think you guys share the same kind of down syndrome.

claymore
06-04-2010, 06:58 AM
Doesn't really matter - all you need to know is that he doesn't exactly deserve as much credit as people are giving him.

I'm still wondering why people haven't brought up the fact that McDaniels hand picked all the players on defense. Yes - all of them.

Let's take a look at his stint with the Niners:

He had full control over personnel and his defense ranks like this


2005 32nd in the league (LAST) < --- there is really no reason or excuse for this
2006 26th in the league
2007 25th in the league
2008 fired half way through the season when the team was 2-5.. defense finished 13th however it was ranked down low at the point he was fired


Now - you're telling me you have 4 FULL off seasons to build your SPECIALTY, a competent defense (let ALONE a competent TEAM that he's responsible for as HC), and you FAILED that miserably? He was GM for the first 3 off seasons.

However, when he comes to Denver - and the HEAD COACH, JOSH MCDANIELS, hand picks every single addition in players and sets the scheme he (JOSH) wants to run...somehow Mike Nolan is running away with all this credit?

Mike Nolan couldn't do shit through 4 off seasons with the Niners where in 3 consecutive ones he had FULL CONTROL... WTF makes you think he came to Denver and somehow deserves all this credit?

Mike Nolan has already proved he's incompetent as a HC, and inconsistent as a DC. He knew he wasn't going to get full control over personnel in Denver.

After looking back at it, it's not that surprising how things turned out. Nolan and McDaniels have the same agent which is the primary reason they most likely initially got hooked up.

I'm kind of actually CONFUSED on what EXACTLY he's getting so much credit for. Is it the scheme? McDaniels wanted a certain scheme and Nolan was told to run it. Is it the personnel? Nolan has already proved he doesn't really have an eye for talent. I mean WHAT EXACTLY are you giving him credit for? Is it defensive execution? Because by now I think everyone knows McDaniels had his hand in every facet of the game.

So please, clarify what EXACTLY Nolan is getting credit for. :lol:

For real though - this is all really a joke.

McDaniels at 34 and has already had a better career than Mike Nolan.

Let's move on.
He is given credit for taking a terrible defense and making them somewhat ok. He is given credit for keeping McDaniels offense in games. If we had the 2008 Defense, we would have been absolutley terrible this year.

Mr D
06-04-2010, 07:07 AM
He is given credit for taking a terrible defense and making them somewhat ok. He is given credit for keeping McDaniels offense in games. If we had the 2008 Defense, we would have been absolutley terrible this year.

The reason why we DON'T have the 2008 defense is because we have a coach who actually believes in focusing on ALL FACETS OF THE GAME.

So Nolan gets credit for McDaniels hand picking the new players (this is already a huge part of the process), installing a new team philosophy, changing the whole culture of the team to focus on BOTH offense and defense, and for McDaniels picking out the scheme he wants to run?

McDaniels gets credit for taking the terrible defense and turning them into a competent defense for some of the year. HE hired Nolan, HE picked the players, HE picked the scheme.

McDaniels gets credit - if the team loses he gets the burden - if the team wins he gets the credit.

If you don't believe in that idea then this is clearly not about the Denver Broncos that you have trouble understanding.

claymore
06-04-2010, 07:34 AM
The reason why we DON'T have the 2008 defense is because we have a coach who actually believes in focusing on ALL FACETS OF THE GAME.

So Nolan gets credit for McDaniels hand picking the new players (this is already a huge part of the process), installing a new team philosophy, changing the whole culture of the team to focus on BOTH offense and defense, and for McDaniels picking out the scheme he wants to run?

McDaniels gets credit for taking the terrible defense and turning them into a competent defense for some of the year. HE hired Nolan, HE picked the players, HE picked the scheme.

McDaniels gets credit - if the team loses he gets the burden - if the team wins he gets the credit.

If you don't believe in that idea then this is clearly not about the Denver Broncos that you have trouble understanding.

Josh gets credit for the worst meltdown in Broncos history. Its up to him to change that.

As for these great players that he hand selected, Id like to see a list of names. Dawkins is the only guy that even comes close, and he is 36 years old and ready to retire.

Mr D
06-04-2010, 07:38 AM
Josh gets credit for the worst meltdown in Broncos history. Its up to him to change that.

As for these great players that he hand selected, Id like to see a list of names. Dawkins is the only guy that even comes close, and he is 36 years old and ready to retire.

:lol:

TXBRONC
06-04-2010, 08:16 AM
That's what a first-vote Hall of Famer looks like.

Did you see the game GG?

claymore
06-04-2010, 08:29 AM
:lol:

I guess you cant think of any great "hand selected" players either.

broncofaninfla
06-04-2010, 08:36 AM
The real way is to play solid football on both sides of the ball.

True, can't wait until the offense pulls thier weight for this team....

TXBRONC
06-04-2010, 08:49 AM
True, can't wait until the offense pulls thier weight for this team....

I couldn't agree more. :salute:

Bosco
06-04-2010, 01:13 PM
That's nice, now show me all the rankings. I want the actual context of them, too. For instance, if he failed miserably in Denver this year I couldn't play him because he had a handful (and I'm being generous) of good players.

There is no context. I averaged out his defensive rankings from the beginning of his coordinating career in New York up until 2009 and 16th was the average ranking.

Northman
06-04-2010, 01:19 PM
True, can't wait until the offense pulls thier weight for this team....

If they can produce like the 08' team did and we can stay where we are at defensively with Little Winky we should be playoff bound. :salute:

Poet
06-04-2010, 02:43 PM
There is no context. I averaged out his defensive rankings from the beginning of his coordinating career in New York up until 2009 and 16th was the average ranking.

That's why I asked for the individual rankings.

So I could get the context.

Softskull
06-04-2010, 02:55 PM
There is no context. I averaged out his defensive rankings from the beginning of his coordinating career in New York up until 2009 and 16th was the average ranking.

That's a really bad way to do that. I you use the same criterea for Bill Belichick, he averages 13. I suppose he's a journeyman too?

Bosco
06-04-2010, 03:18 PM
That's a really bad way to do that. I you use the same criterea for Bill Belichick, he averages 13. I suppose he's a journeyman too?

Where did you get those numbers? I ran them myself and came up with 8.

TXBRONC
06-04-2010, 03:18 PM
That's a really bad way to do that. I you use the same criterea for Bill Belichick, he averages 13. I suppose he's a journeyman too?

Yeah Belichick's reputation is all hype and no substance. ;)

Softskull
06-04-2010, 03:20 PM
where did you get those numbers? I ran them myself and came up with 8.

85 2 nyg
86 2 nyg
87 7 nyg
88 11 nyg
89 5 nyg
90 2 nyg
91 18 cle
92 14 cle
93 12 cle
94 7 cle
95 24 cle
96 19 ne
97 24 nyj
98 7 nyj
99 21 nyj
0 20 ne
1 24 ne
2 23 ne
3 7 ne
4 9 ne
5 26 ne
6 6 ne
7 4 ne
8 10 ne
9 11 ne
12.6

TXBRONC
06-04-2010, 03:23 PM
85 2 nyg
86 2 nyg
87 7 nyg
88 11 nyg
89 5 nyg
90 2 nyg
91 18 cle
92 14 cle
93 12 cle
94 7 cle
95 24 cle
96 19 ne
97 24 nyj
98 7 nyj
99 21 nyj
0 20 ne
1 24 ne
2 23 ne
3 7 ne
4 9 ne
5 26 ne
6 6 ne
7 4 ne
8 10 ne
9 11 ne
12.6

Good grief all you have to do is look at the rankings and you know that his average will come out to be double digits.

claymore
06-04-2010, 03:24 PM
I bet someone would hire Belichick the day after he was fired too.

Bosco
06-04-2010, 03:25 PM
85 2 nyg
86 2 nyg
87 7 nyg
88 11 nyg
89 5 nyg
90 2 nyg
91 18 cle
92 14 cle
93 12 cle
94 7 cle
95 24 cle
96 19 ne
97 24 nyj
98 7 nyj
99 21 nyj
0 20 ne
1 24 ne
2 23 ne
3 7 ne
4 9 ne
5 26 ne
6 6 ne
7 4 ne
8 10 ne
9 11 ne
12.6

Here's the problem.

1) You're using yards instead of points. Always use points. Yards is for fantasy football geeks.

2) 96-98 needs to be removed from the sample size as Belichick was just the secondary coach.

claymore
06-04-2010, 03:27 PM
Here's the problem.

1) You're using yards instead of points. Always use points. Yards is for fantasy football geeks.

2) 96-98 needs to be removed from the sample size as Belichick was just the secondary coach.

I knew you were going to say that. Overall rankings goes off of yards. YARDS!!!!!

arapaho2
06-04-2010, 03:27 PM
True, can't wait until the offense pulls thier weight for this team....


i guess you didnt get the memo

it states the defense improvements were all josh...the defenses failures was on nolan because he couldnt tuck in his 20 years of defensive coaching under the rug and listen to the guy who coached dbs one season...his defense was a mess...( at the end of the season) and it being a totaly new scheme, totaly foreign alignment..4-3 vrs 3-4 for most of the personal has no bearing on why it collapsed..


however the memo also states a clrifacation on offense

the troubles and anemic production as well as the drop in nearly every stat is all do to players getting used to a new scheme

hope that clears up the confusion:D

Broncolingus
06-04-2010, 03:28 PM
...so, I just finished reading the past 3-4 pages of this thread...

...uhhhhhh.

http://eu.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/confused-full.jpg

Bosco
06-04-2010, 03:29 PM
I knew you were going to say that. Overall rankings goes off of yards. YARDS!!!!!

Again, only if you're a fantasy football geek. Shit like that is what allows idiots to delude themselves into thinking Josh McDaniels dismantled some type of elite offense rather than one that was exactly middle of the pack.

Oddly enough, that's one of the first attitude adjustments Josh handed out when he came to Denver.

claymore
06-04-2010, 03:33 PM
Again, only if you're a fantasy football geek. Shit like that is what allows idiots to delude themselves into thinking Josh McDaniels dismantled some type of elite offense rather than one that was exactly middle of the pack.

Oddly enough, that's one of the first attitude adjustments Josh handed out when he came to Denver.

No, its how the rankings go. Any other way is stated with the ranking it was sorted with. like #1 scoring offense, or #2 rushing defense etc...

http://www.nfl.com/stats/team

Notice that the NFL (the Pros) use YPG?

arapaho2
06-04-2010, 03:33 PM
Again, only if you're a fantasy football geek. Shit like that is what allows idiots to delude themselves into thinking Josh McDaniels dismantled some type of elite offense rather than one that was exactly middle of the pack.

Oddly enough, that's one of the first attitude adjustments Josh handed out when he came to Denver.


by attitude adjustment you mean getting worse in points scored?...or being worse in the redzone...or is it worse on 3rd down conversions?

claymore
06-04-2010, 03:36 PM
by attitude adjustment you mean getting worse in points scored?...or being worse in the redzone...or is it worse on 3rd down conversions?

I think he meant worst meltdown?

Softskull
06-04-2010, 03:39 PM
Here's the problem.

1) You're using yards instead of points. Always use points. Yards is for fantasy football geeks.

2) 96-98 needs to be removed from the sample size as Belichick was just the secondary coach.
If you use yards, that eliminates points scored by opposing special teams, and opposing defenses (those both show up in the points stats). Also, if you're using points, the best way to do that is points per drive. Points (and yards to a lesser degree) can also be skewed by the number of drives that an opposing team started, i.e. The opposing team has ten drives against your def, and scores 21 points (2.1 ppd) versus 20 drives and score 21 points (1.05 ppd). You'd have the same points, but the latter would be the better defense.

You’re correct, BB was the secondary coach during those years, but he was also the Assistant Head Coach for that timeframe.

Bosco
06-04-2010, 03:43 PM
No, its how the rankings go. Any other way is stated with the ranking it was sorted with. like #1 scoring offense, or #2 rushing defense etc...

http://www.nfl.com/stats/team

Notice that the NFL (the Pros) use YPG?

I don't care what the NFL website (which pushes their Fantasy Football heavily) ranks their offenses by. The most relevant stats is points.


by attitude adjustment you mean getting worse in points scored?...or being worse in the redzone...or is it worse on 3rd down conversions? No, I'm talking about how in one of his first team meetings, Josh McDaniels had to rip into the offense and remind them that their 16th ranked offense wasn't that elite unit Mike Shanahan let them think they were. That's paraphrasing of course, but there was an article that discussed it.

Northman
06-04-2010, 03:48 PM
Again, only if you're a fantasy football geek. Shit like that is what allows idiots to delude themselves into thinking Josh McDaniels dismantled some type of elite offense rather than one that was exactly middle of the pack.

Oddly enough, that's one of the first attitude adjustments Josh handed out when he came to Denver.

If that is indeed truly the case than our offense was bottom of the league last year so he didnt really improve anything there. :lol:

claymore
06-04-2010, 03:50 PM
I don't care what the NFL website (which pushes their Fantasy Football heavily) ranks their offenses by. The most relevant stats is points.

Im sure the 50 million football fans will change how they rank football teams to accomidate your methd instead. You should start a website promoting this.


No, I'm talking about how in one of his first team meetings, Josh McDaniels had to rip into the offense and remind them that their 16th ranked offense wasn't that elite unit Mike Shanahan let them think they were. That's paraphrasing of course, but there was an article that discussed it.
All I can say is that he made it worse. Maybe someone he cant fire or trade can remind him of that.

arapaho2
06-04-2010, 03:59 PM
I think he meant worst meltdown?


yeah that was a attitude adjuster there:cool:

Bosco
06-04-2010, 03:59 PM
If you use yards, that eliminates points scored by opposing special teams, and opposing defenses (those both show up in the points stats). Also, if you're using points, the best way to do that is points per drive. Points (and yards to a lesser degree) can also be skewed by the number of drives that an opposing team started, i.e. The opposing team has ten drives against your def, and scores 21 points (2.1 ppd) versus 20 drives and score 21 points (1.05 ppd). You'd have the same points, but the latter would be the better defense. Just in the interest of fairness, I ran Nolan's yards ranking and it still averaged out to 16.

Defensive and special teams points are a rare enough occurrence that they're unlikely to effect the season rankings by more than a spot either way, much less when averaged out over the career. Either way, Belichick's defenses have been superior to Nolan's by a good margin.


You’re correct, BB was the secondary coach during those years, but he was also the Assistant Head Coach for that timeframe. That was done to protect other teams from coming after Belichick, like Mike Shanahan did with Jim Bates and Bobby Turner in Washington.

Northman
06-04-2010, 04:03 PM
Either way, Belichick's defenses have been superior to Nolan's by a good margin.



Out of curiosity, what was the team's offensive ranking in your comparison. I would venture to say that Belly has had a far superior offense than what Nolan had to work with no?

arapaho2
06-04-2010, 04:04 PM
I don't care what the NFL website (which pushes their Fantasy Football heavily) ranks their offenses by. The most relevant stats is points.

No, I'm talking about how in one of his first team meetings, Josh McDaniels had to rip into the offense and remind them that their 16th ranked offense wasn't that elite unit Mike Shanahan let them think they were. That's paraphrasing of course, but there was an article that discussed it.


yes yes..he then laughed in his public address about shannys ineffective redzone production...scoffed at the large amount of yards vrs points scored...we know, we know

to bad his RA RA condemnation speach, and personal coaching to fix these problems, ended with the team not only getting worse in 3rd down conversion and yards but also scoreing fewer points, and getting worse in the redzone

man i hope he doesnt adjust the defenses attitudes this year...:lol: :lol:

Bosco
06-04-2010, 04:07 PM
Im sure the 50 million football fans will change how they rank football teams to accomidate your methd instead. You should start a website promoting this. Fans can rank it however they want. NFL coaches, executives and scouts are all pretty much unanimous in how they do the rankings.


All I can say is that he made it worse. That's what happens when you're trying to break in a new quarterback after he was acquired well into the offseason, have your star WR get suspended and a whole slew of other problems all while putting the team through a complete phase shift.


Maybe someone he cant fire or trade can remind him of that. I think he's got that covered, what with the two new rookie receivers, three offensive linemen and two new quarterbacks.

Bosco
06-04-2010, 04:08 PM
Out of curiosity, what was the team's offensive ranking in your comparison. I would venture to say that Belly has had a far superior offense than what Nolan had to work with no?

Didn't compare them.

Softskull
06-04-2010, 04:08 PM
Again, only if you're a fantasy football geek. Shit like that is what allows idiots to delude themselves into thinking Josh McDaniels dismantled some type of elite offense rather than one that was exactly middle of the pack.

Oddly enough, that's one of the first attitude adjustments Josh handed out when he came to Denver.

Well, here's using the points per drive stat I was talking about comparing 2008 to 2009. The number in parenthesis are their ratings.

Team Drives Yds/Dr Pts/Dr TDs/Dr Punts/Dr
2009 185 29.76 (17) 1.62 (21) .162 (24) .422 (21)
2008 164 38.38 (1) 2.16 (9) .244 (9) .280 (1)

Considering how poor we were in FGs in 2008, that offense was better in nearly every facet of the game

underrated29
06-04-2010, 04:09 PM
i guess you didnt get the memo

it states the defense improvements were all josh...the defenses failures was on nolan because he couldnt tuck in his 20 years of defensive coaching under the rug and listen to the guy who coached dbs one season...his defense was a mess...( at the end of the season) and it being a totaly new scheme, totaly foreign alignment..4-3 vrs 3-4 for most of the personal has no bearing on why it collapsed..


however the memo also states a clrifacation on offense

the troubles and anemic production as well as the drop in nearly every stat is all do to players getting used to a new scheme

hope that clears up the confusion:D



also we are not putting a cover letter on the TPS reports.

Bosco
06-04-2010, 04:10 PM
Well, here's using the points per drive stat I was talking about comparing 2008 to 2009. The number in parenthesis are their ratings.

Team Drives Yds/Dr Pts/Dr TDs/Dr Punts/Dr
2009 185 29.76 (17) 1.62 (21) .162 (24) .422 (21)
2008 164 38.38 (1) 2.16 (9) .244 (9) .280 (1)

Considering how poor we were in FGs in 2008, that offense was better in nearly every facet of the game

I didn't need that stat line to know that. ;)

arapaho2
06-04-2010, 04:22 PM
I didn't need that stat line to know that. ;)

then why do you insist that mcd came in ruled with a iron fist to bleed this club of any shirkers anti team playes...so he could improve the offense


when in fact he made it worse

Northman
06-04-2010, 04:26 PM
It was a bit difficult to gather the numbers for these guys and how much
more pressure the lack of offense put on their respective defenses.
Im pretty sure most people are up to date on Nolan's HC record with SF and
lack of offense there so i ignored it because its common knowledge. So the
stats you see for Nolan here are only for his DC positions in which only his job
as DC for the Giants had a offense ranked in the top 10.

As for Billy, i used his one DC job with the Giants and the rest as the HC with
the Patriots as too where the offenses stood. Keep in mind this is gong by scoring
not by yardage. By yardage, all offenses would be ranked higher. But its pretty
clear to see that Nolan's defenses had to carry a lot more weight than Billy has
as either DC or HC.


Mike Nolan

NY Giants
1993- 8th
1994- 8th
1995- 8th
1996- 8th

Redskins
1997- 26th
1998- 26th
1999- 26th

NY Jets
2000- 17th

Ravens
2002- 18th
2003- 8th
2004- 20th

Broncos
2009- 20th





Billy

NY Giants
1980- 8th
1981- 8th
1982- 8th
1983- 8th

Patriots
2000- 6th
2001- 6th
2002- 6th
2003- 6th
2004- 6th
2005- 6th
2006- 6th
2007- 6th
2008- 6th
2009- 6th

TXBRONC
06-04-2010, 04:34 PM
It was a bit difficult to gather the numbers for these guys and how much
more pressure the lack of offense put on their respective defenses.
Im pretty sure most people are up to date on Nolan's HC record with SF and
lack of offense there so i ignored it because its common knowledge. So the
stats you see for Nolan here are only for his DC positions in which only his job
as DC for the Giants had a offense ranked in the top 10.

As for Billy, i used his one DC job with the Giants and the rest as the HC with
the Patriots as too where the offenses stood. Keep in mind this is gong by scoring
not by yardage. By yardage, all offenses would be ranked higher. But its pretty
clear to see that Nolan's defenses had to carry a lot more weight than Billy has
as either DC or HC.


Mike Nolan

NY Giants
1993- 8th
1994- 8th
1995- 8th
1996- 8th

Redskins
1997- 26th
1998- 26th
1999- 26th

NY Jets
2000- 17th

Ravens
2002- 18th
2003- 8th
2004- 20th

Broncos
2009- 20th





Billy

NY Giants
1980- 8th
1981- 8th
1982- 8th
1983- 8th

Patriots
2000- 6th
2001- 6th
2002- 6th
2003- 6th
2004- 6th
2005- 6th
2006- 6th
2007- 6th
2008- 6th
2009- 6th

You what I find funny? We here all the shit about how Nolan was a disaster in San Francisco but they seem to forget how badly Belichick stepped all over his manhood in Cleveland.

claymore
06-04-2010, 06:57 PM
Fans can rank it however they want. NFL coaches, executives and scouts are all pretty much unanimous in how they do the rankings.

That's what happens when you're trying to break in a new quarterback after he was acquired well into the offseason, have your star WR get suspended and a whole slew of other problems all while putting the team through a complete phase shift.

I think he's got that covered, what with the two new rookie receivers, three offensive linemen and two new quarterbacks.

No one but you says that the offensive and defensive rankings go off of points.

Mr D
06-04-2010, 09:42 PM
I guess you cant think of any great "hand selected" players either.

:lol:

I can - it's really obvious - but your role on these forums are a joke - hence why I laugh at the value of your posts.

:lol:

Northman
06-04-2010, 09:45 PM
:lol:

I can - it's really obvious - but your role on these forums are a joke - hence why I laugh at the value of your posts.

:lol:

Maybe you should concentrate on the arguement and not the poster. Posts like these make you no better than him if your throwing out the "troll" accusation.

Lonestar
06-04-2010, 09:53 PM
It was a bit difficult to gather the numbers for these guys and how much
more pressure the lack of offense put on their respective defenses.
Im pretty sure most people are up to date on Nolan's HC record with SF and
lack of offense there so i ignored it because its common knowledge. So the
stats you see for Nolan here are only for his DC positions in which only his job
as DC for the Giants had a offense ranked in the top 10.

As for Billy, i used his one DC job with the Giants and the rest as the HC with
the Patriots as too where the offenses stood. Keep in mind this is gong by scoring
not by yardage. By yardage, all offenses would be ranked higher. But its pretty
clear to see that Nolan's defenses had to carry a lot more weight than Billy has
as either DC or HC.


Mike Nolan

NY Giants
1993- 8th
1994- 8th
1995- 8th
1996- 8th

Redskins
1997- 26th
1998- 26th
1999- 26th

NY Jets
2000- 17th

Ravens
2002- 18th
2003- 8th
2004- 20th

Broncos
2009- 20th





Billy

NY Giants
1980- 8th
1981- 8th
1982- 8th
1983- 8th

Patriots
2000- 6th
2001- 6th
2002- 6th
2003- 6th
2004- 6th
2005- 6th
2006- 6th
2007- 6th
2008- 6th
2009- 6th

:salute::salute:
just that I'm clear here
nolan was 16.08 in the league in scores against his D

and

Billy was 6.57..

that means that Billy had better numbers correct?

BTW thanks for digging out the numbers for us kinda puts that to bed once and for all.

well at least for most of us.

Northman
06-04-2010, 09:57 PM
:salute::salute:
just that I'm clear here
nolan was 16.08 in the league in scores against his D

and

Billy was 6.57..

that means that Billy had better numbers correct?

BTW thanks for digging out the numbers for us kinda puts that to bed once and for all.

well at least for most of us.

It means that Billy had better offenses to take the pressure off of the defense.

Broncolingus
06-04-2010, 09:57 PM
:salute::salute:
just that I'm clear here
nolan was 16.08 in the league in scores against his D

and

Billy was 6.57..

that means that Billy had better numbers correct?

BTW thanks for digging out the numbers for us kinda puts that to bed once and for all.

well at least for most of us.

I'll keep it going, Wiz...

...what are we talking about?

:D

Mr D
06-04-2010, 09:59 PM
Maybe you should concentrate on the arguement and not the poster. Posts like these make you no better than him if your throwing out the "troll" accusation.

And what exactly did you just do?

:lol:

Northman
06-04-2010, 10:01 PM
And what exactly did you just do?

:lol:

Advise.

Lonestar
06-04-2010, 10:08 PM
It means that Billy had better offenses to take the pressure off of the defense.


Ever think that perhaps the defense gave them the ball back in better position


Maybe you need to add in the D ranking on those same years, turn overs etc.

Did you factor out how many scores the Defense and special teams made.

Just for what it is worth nice try. the following is NOT directed at you but have to say it anyway. As I can find positive in stats on almost every stat there is.

But I will go with the old adage


Figures never lie,



but liars always figure!.

Broncolingus
06-04-2010, 10:09 PM
Advise.

"...yeah..."

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Ertman/caturday/bill-lumbergh-1_Full.jpg

:D

Lonestar
06-04-2010, 10:10 PM
I'll keep it going, JR..

...what are we talking about?

:D

At this point who the hell knows.

This thread has went six ways to sunday.

Bosco
06-04-2010, 10:12 PM
then why do you insist that mcd came in ruled with a iron fist to bleed this club of any shirkers anti team playes...so he could improve the offense when in fact he made it worse

First off, he's here to build the whole team, not just the offense. Second, given the circumstances I'm not going to bitch and moan about the offense taking a step back in year one.

I'm expecting to see substantial improvement this year, especially towards the end of the season. In 2011 I'm expecting the offense to be at full speed and in the upper third of the league, at minimum. If those things don't happen, then I think it will be time to start some serious complaining.


Your post

Thanks for doing the leg work. Provides a nice counterpoint.

Props to you, sir.


they seem to forget how badly Belichick stepped all over his manhood in Cleveland.

That's not true at all. Belichick had that team on the right path, including a run into the playoffs in 1995. Modell announced that he was moving the team less than halfway into the 1996 season and pretty much killed that year, after which Belichick resigned.

Broncolingus
06-04-2010, 10:12 PM
At this point who the hell knows.

This thread has went six ways to sunday.

Yeah!

Corn Dog!

http://www.breakfastclubquotes.com/images/nightshift2.jpg

Northman
06-04-2010, 10:14 PM
Ever think that perhaps the defense gave them the ball back in better position


Maybe you need to add in the D ranking on those same years, turn overs etc.

Did you factor out how many scores the Defense and special teams made.

Just for what it is worth nice try. the following is NOT directed at you but have to say it anyway. As I can find positive in stats on almost every stat there is.

But I will go with the old adage


Figures never lie,



but liars always figure!.


Ill try and pull it up. But basically that is what i was doing when i added the offensive rankings because Bosco was eluding to the idea that BB had better defenses than Nolan but he did not mention the offensive rankings in which it takes pressure off the defense when your offense can score basically at will. All the offensive rankings i put up were score based, not yardage based. But ill see if i can find the time to get the defensive rankings as well.

claymore
06-04-2010, 10:19 PM
Ill try and pull it up. But basically that is what i was doing when i added the offensive rankings because Bosco was eluding to the idea that BB had better defenses than Nolan but he did not mention the offensive rankings in which it takes pressure off the defense when your offense can score basically at will. All the offensive rankings i put up were score based, not yardage based. But ill see if i can find the time to get the defensive rankings as well.
It will fall on deaf ears North. You would be better served by tatooing your cats balls or something.

Lonestar
06-04-2010, 10:21 PM
First off, he's here to build the whole team, not just the offense. Second, given the circumstances I'm not going to bitch and moan about the offense taking a step back in year one.

I'm expecting to see substantial improvement this year, especially towards the end of the season. In 2011 I'm expecting the offense to be at full speed and in the upper third of the league, at minimum. If those things don't happen, then I think it will be time to start some serious complaining.



Thanks for doing the leg work. Provides a nice counterpoint.

Props to you, sir.



That's not true at all. Belichick had that team on the right path, including a run into the playoffs in 1995. Modell announced that he was moving the team less than halfway into the 1996 season and pretty much killed that year, after which Belichick resigned.



Way to many folks just want to be angry for mikey getting canned and forget that it was a long time coming.


I had forgotten about modell and his fubar.

Mr D
06-04-2010, 10:34 PM
Advise.


Maybe you should concentrate on the arguement and not the poster.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/4395/seriouslys.jpg

TXBRONC
06-04-2010, 11:42 PM
It will fall on deaf ears North. You would be better served by tatooing your cats balls or something.

Are you offering your services? :lol:

rcsodak
06-05-2010, 10:20 AM
Don't have better answer huh?

Figures.

To what? :confused:

You defeat your own 'points' without any help from others.

rcsodak
06-05-2010, 10:24 AM
blitzing manning is the worse thing to do? tell that to the patriots when they owned his ass for all those years. BTW, what football people said blitzing manning is the worse thing to do?

I think you'll have a smaller list if you name the people that think you SHOULD blitz him. :coffee:

PM is a blitz killer.

Period.

Softskull
06-05-2010, 02:27 PM
By REED ALBERGOTTI

This season, NFL teams blitzed Indianapolis Colts quarterback Peyton Manning 149 times. Their goal: To mash Mr. Manning into a buttery paste suitable for dinner rolls.

The result: He completed 101 passes, 10 for touchdowns, and was only sacked five times. In fact, his completion percentage on blitzes was only one point lower than his overall mark.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704320104575015162979275340.html