Broncos claim LB Bruce Davis off waivers

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2010/06/01/broncos-claim-lb-bruce-davis-off-waivers/

New England beat writer extraordinaire Mike Reiss just reported the Broncos claimed linebacker Bruce Davis off waivers from the Patriots.

The 6-3, 252-pound Davis was a third-round draft pick out of UCLA by the Pittsburgh Steelers in 2008, but hasn’t yet cut it as he’s attempted to transition from defensive end to the 3-4, outside linebacker.

[OrangeHoof]

We get all of Belichick's sloppy seconds...

[T.K.O.]

sounds like a precurser to the release of jarvis moss

[silkamilkamonico]

We get all of Belichick's sloppy seconds...


sounds like a precurser to the release of jarvis moss


It's just a temporary fix while he continues to purge all these losers left over in Denver from the last coaching regime.

[honz]

The Patriots are a winning franchise. We could use more of their players.

[Lonestar]

The Patriots are a winning franchise. We could use more of their players.

BUT BUT BUT some have winning ENVY, it won;t fly in DEN because it is not mikey making the changes.
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[ikillz0mbies]

Just another camp body I presume....no biggie.

[GGMoogly]

:tsk: My, my, my...such negativity on this thread. We have a new member of the Bronco family - Yayyy!!! :whoo: Maybe all he needs is a change of scenery! Maybe he's the next big sensation!! :cheer2: Anyway, they'll be plenty of time to rip him a new one when reality steps in. As far as former coaches or players, "Vaya con Dios" to them all! :ciao: At one time or another they gave me pleasure. Now others are there to take their place. Life is too short to worry about them, especially when there's a whole summer to GEEK OUT TO UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS!!!


...Tim would want it that way. :D

[jhildebrand]

It's just a temporary fix while he continues to purge all these losers left over in Denver from the last coaching regime.

Like Andra Davis :lol:

[TXBRONC]

It's just a temporary fix while he continues to purge all these losers left over in Denver from the last coaching regime.

What makes this guy any better Silk? He's flopped with two different teams already.

This is like digging a hole to bury dirt.

[tomjonesrocks]

<lombardi trophy><img src="nfl.com/lombardi.html"></lombardi trophy>

[cuzz4169]

James Harrison was cut a couple times...he turned out to be ok!

[TXBRONC]

James Harrison was cut a couple times...he turned out to be ok!

I suppose it's possible but so is winning a Super Bowl without a franchise quarterback, but that doesn't make it likely.

[silkamilkamonico]

If he's a part of the roster, and Jarvis Moss isn't, it's an immediate upgrade, IMO for this reason only. We know Jarvis moss sucks and won't contribute a damn thing. That's a given. We can't say that for sure about this other guy. maybe he sucks, but hey, we aren't missing out anything if he's in place of Moss.

[Tempus Fugit]

Probably just a longshot for special teams.

[Bosco]

Probably just a longshot for special teams.

Pretty much. He'll get to work behind Dumervil as a developmental project just like Moss was last year. Whichever one they feel has more potential will probably stick around.

[Lonestar]

Lots of folks were pissed that we did not address LB in the draft. So now its addressed with someone that has as much chance as a rookie would to make the team better.

They must have seen something they like or they would not have Picked him up.

The DC is a long time. Lb coach how about we give him the benifit of a doubt before calling this TWO time loser a BUST.
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[Elevation inc]

What makes this guy any better Silk? He's flopped with two different teams already.

This is like digging a hole to bury dirt.

2 words for a converted 3-4 OLB like davis supposedly flopping with 2 teams......James Harrison....

[broncofaninfla]

Yet another Patriot reject added to the mix. I'm guessing the offensive plays from last season were fished out of a dumpster by Mcd as he left his beloved Patriots on his way to Denver. I'm getting very tired of Mcd's love affair with his former team at the expense of my favorite team.

[TXBRONC]

If he's a part of the roster, and Jarvis Moss isn't, it's an immediate upgrade, IMO for this reason only. We know Jarvis moss sucks and won't contribute a damn thing. That's a given. We can't say that for sure about this other guy. maybe he sucks, but hey, we aren't missing out anything if he's in place of Moss.

If he's no better than Moss then it's a wasted move of course that's assuming Moss will be released.

[TXBRONC]

2 words for a converted 3-4 OLB like davis supposedly flopping with 2 teams......James Harrison....

Someone else said same thing. Fact is for every James Harrison there's a 100 that don't make it.

[Lonestar]

Yet another Patriot reject added to the mix. I'm guessing the offensive plays from last season were fished out of a dumpster by Mcd as he left his beloved Patriots on his way to Denver. I'm getting very tired of Mcd's love affair with his former team at the expense of my favorite team.

If their "trash" is better than our players why should you be tired out IMPROVING the breeding stock so to speak.

Why the hell should we keep the turds just because they are mikeys?

I'd rather have a better player myself NO MATTER where it comes from.

Remember in this case he was drafted by PIT where breaking into the LB lineup is really tough. Some of the best of the best work there.

Now IF we cut someone who is CLEARY better than he is YOU have a legit compliant until then your showing your ASS and FRANKLY your better than that.
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[GEM]

If their "trash" is better than our players why should you be tired out IMPROVING the breeding stock so to speak.

Why the hell should we keep the turds just because they are mikeys?

I'd rather have a better player myself NO MATTER where it comes from.

Remember in this case he was drafted by PIT where breaking into the LB lineup is really tough. Some of the best of the best work there.

Now IF we cut someone who is CLEARY better than he is YOU have a legit compliant until then your showing your ASS and FRANKLY your better than that.
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What was the last long snapper's name and how much less did he make vs. the new long snapper?

[claymore]

What was the last long snapper's name and how much less did he make vs. the new long snapper?

Thats not fair Gem. Lonnie Paxton is wheyyyyyyyy better! :laugh:

[GEM]

Also....just because someone's opinion differs from yours JR, doesn't give you the right to say they are "showing their ass". That person could say the same about your opinion. :tsk:

[broncofaninfla]

We get it, you hate all things Shanny.

I'd love to have a better player than Moss or at any other position we can upgrade at but just because the guy is a former Patriot doesn't mean he is. Mcd's love affair with his former team is wearing thin with me. It's to the point when New England cuts somebody I cringe of the thought that another New England reject will probably become a new Bronco. Denver way over paid for Paxton and Jarvis Green and LaKevin Smith and Hochstien were nothing short of pathetic yet Hoch's name keeps getting mentioned as a possible starter at center this year! Gaffney would be a back up on most teams yet he'll probably start for us being the young guys in this year draft will enter camp gimpy. Gaffney didn't have the dropped ball issues with us last year like he did at New England but with the added increase in work load I'm scared we'll find out why New England let him go as well.

[Lonestar]

What was the last long snapper's name and how much less did he make vs. the new long snapper?

There have been two things I intially have not liked about Josh.

One was getting Paxton while Leach was. Adamned fine LS fill in TE and FB. He was one of my adoptees
But then one of the punters commented that Paxton came in and asked him exactly where do you want the ball delivered, do you like it high-low, left or right. I told him and after a couple of snaps he placed it there every time.

When you have that kind of control your worth the extra money. IMHO.
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[GEM]

There have been two things I intially have not liked about Josh.

One was getting Paxton while Leach was. Adamned fine LS fill in TE and FB. He was one of my adoptees
But then one of the punters commented that Paxton came in and asked him exactly where do you want the ball delivered, do you like it high-low, left or right. I told him and after a couple of snaps he placed it there every time.

When you have that kind of control your worth the extra money. IMHO.
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I was just pointing out that your last line, where you told another poster to stop "showing their ass" that by your own standard they did have a legit complaint.

[TXBRONC]

We get it, you hate all things Shanny.

I'd love to have a better player than Moss or at any other position we can upgrade at but just because the guy is a former Patriot doesn't mean he is. Mcd's love affair with his former team is wearing thin with me. It's to the point when New England cuts somebody I cringe of the thought that another New England reject will probably become a new Bronco. Denver way over paid for Paxton and Jarvis Green and LaKevin Smith and Hochstien were nothing short of pathetic yet Hoch's name keeps getting mentioned as a possible starter at center this year! Gaffney would be a back up on most teams yet he'll probably start for us being the young guys in this year draft will enter camp gimpy. Gaffney didn't have the dropped ball issues with us last year like he did at New England but with the added increase in work load I'm scared we'll find out why New England let him go as well.

Hello! (Not meant at you) If he was damn good they wouldn't have cut him. As you said just because the guy comes from New England doesn't mean he's worth poopola.

Remember how Shanahan got blasted endlessly for making similar moves with Browns?

[Lonestar]

We get it, you hate all things Shanny.

I'd love to have a better player than Moss or at any other position we can upgrade at but just because the guy is a former Patriot doesn't mean he is. Mcd's love affair with his former team is wearing thin with me. It's to the point when New England cuts somebody I cringe of the thought that another New England reject will probably become a new Bronco. Denver way over paid for Paxton and Jarvis Green and LaKevin Smith and Hochstien were nothing short of pathetic yet Hoch's name keeps getting mentioned as a possible starter at center this year! Gaffney would be a back up on most teams yet he'll probably start for us being the young guys in this year draft will enter camp gimpy. Gaffney didn't have the dropped ball issues with us last year like he did at New England but with the added increase in work load I'm scared we'll find out why New England let him go as well.

So why not let it play iut before using the term dumpster diving.

Josh has pulled in players that are TEAM players while allowing the Divas to go.

I realize that initially those seem to be BAD. Give the guy a break till they actually play out.

IF those players ultimatey start over older Broncos what does that say about the talent level he was left with.

Pat fired jay for being a petulant diva.

Marshall was a head case talented yes but is a walking time bomb.

Scheffler frankly never saw what Y'all did.

Hillis not for sure why he was not played last year. Lots of diffenrent opines there thta NO ONE knows for sure.
Leach well Paxton is an upgrade see my post above about that

But you have to know Josh is decisive and will bring in players from anywhere to compete with exsisting ones.

What the hell is wrong with that.

IF he gets rid of anyone and a former Pat replaces him there is a reason for it and if it is NOT then Y'all will get your wishes in a few years and he is gone.


When I moved to a new office as a manager I would have loved to be able to fire the skells and hire others to replace them it would have improved my profit improvement expotentially and thus my BONUS each year.

But alas they where not at will or contract employees that I could do that with.

In most cases they were UNION morons that knew they did not have to perform and it would take a dozen letters later would still get a arbitrator decision or at worst case un-employment.
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[Lonestar]

We get it, you hate all things Shanny.

.

Let me clarify that thought.

I do not hate mikey.

I just see him diFferently than most do.

While I beleived everything thing he said vertbatium UNTIL the ashley DAFTING.

After that I started looking critically at each of his Daftees.

Then I saw that he failed miserably on day one picks.
Those are the BASE that the team is built on. Name one day one pick besides 3 LB's that made it to a second contract from 99-05 that is without looking at it about 3 players from a pool of 18 players that made it.

All the others for the most part never made it past their 3rd TC IN DEN.

And let's not even go with the CAP hell he put us into with failed trades (excpeting Champ) and short term FA rentals.

Almost every year he had to redo 3-6 contracts moraging the future by giving guaranteed money, to get under the cap.

Sorry hate no BITTER yes. He was most of the time a brilliant OC but failed at getting his TEAM ready for trap games, early east coast games and SOME nationally telvised night games. Especially late in his tenure.

It was a huge mistake for Pat to have used the term contract for life. HUGE.

I wish him well and ONLY hope he learned from his DEN FUBARS for the future.

Glad he is gone and we have a dynamic young kid that is hungry and never want medicore again.
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[Lonestar]

We get it, you hate all things Shanny.


Let me add some of us get it that you love mikey and do not like Josh because he is from the hated PAT franchise.

That is OK not everyone has to agree.

But I will give the kid a chance to do his job as long as I gave mikey.

BTW I quoted this again because in the mobile area I can't edit my previous posts. All I see is the first line of the post.
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[Elevation inc]

Someone else said same thing. Fact is for every James Harrison there's a 100 that don't make it.

i dont disagree but its his first year with us so forgive me for being willing to give him a shot;).....who knows...it doesnt hurt the team to improve OLB depth that is lacking anyways with guys like baraka atkins and jarvis moss.....you never know who we will find even if he is from the patriots.....

[Grover]

I'm not particularly thrilled with this pickup for two reasons:


Russ Hochstein and Le Kevin Smith are ex-Pats that didn't do much, and both played enough that they had opportunities. I think McDaniels thinks a bit too highly of third and fourth tier Patriot linemen.

But the BIG reason I don't like this move is that we already have a good prospect at Outside Linebacker in our 7th round pick this year - Jammie Kirlew. That guy has a motor and he will be a player for us.

[Tempus Fugit]

I was just pointing out that your last line, where you told another poster to stop "showing their ass" that by your own standard they did have a legit complaint.

JR's words:


Now IF we cut someone who is CLEARY better than he is YOU have a legit compliant

Paxton is the better long snapper, so I don't see how it's applicable.

[Tempus Fugit]

I'm not particularly thrilled with this pickup for two reasons:


Russ Hochstein and Le Kevin Smith are ex-Pats that didn't do much, and both played enough that they had opportunities. I think McDaniels thinks a bit too highly of third and fourth tier Patriot linemen.

But the BIG reason I don't like this move is that we already have a good prospect at Outside Linebacker in our 7th round pick this year - Jammie Kirlew. That guy has a motor and he will be a player for us.

It's a training camp/end of roster type of move. The guy probably won't make the team, but it's not as if he's killing the Broncos by being player #80.

[GEM]

JR's words:



Paxton is the better long snapper, so I don't see how it's applicable.

Paxton and Leech are comparable and Leech came $2mil cheaper.

[Bosco]

Lots of folks were pissed that we did not address LB in the draft. So now its addressed with someone that has as much chance as a rookie would to make the team better.

I never understood that. We had arguably the league's best pass rushing OLB (Doom) backed up by a guy (Moss) who was a first round pick a couple years ago and has an excellent skillset. Our WILB is a guy who has played at a Pro-Bowl level every year he's been at his natural position and he's backed up by the guy (Woodyard) who looked very good as his injury replacement in 2008. At SILB we have Haggan moving back to his natural position where he can fight it out with Ayodele, who has been a pretty good linebacker all throughout his career. Our SOLB position is manned by last year's developmental first round pick (Ayers) and backed up by a versatile veteran (Reid).

There wasn't much to be addressed in the line-backing corps.


Yet another Patriot reject added to the mix. I'm guessing the offensive plays from last season were fished out of a dumpster by Mcd as he left his beloved Patriots on his way to Denver. I'm getting very tired of Mcd's love affair with his former team at the expense of my favorite team. How is it at the expense of the Broncos? Just curious, but were you pissed when Shanahan brought several 49ers with him to Denver?


Thats not fair Gem. Lonnie Paxton is wheyyyyyyyy better! :laugh: Not "way better", but definitely better.


Mcd's love affair with his former team is wearing thin with me. Why? I'm guessing it's just because you hate the Patriots.


It's to the point when New England cuts somebody I cringe of the thought that another New England reject will probably become a new Bronco.
Davis is the only Patriot cut (out of many) that we've signed to date.


Denver way over paid for Paxton He cost all of $250k more than Leach and was a noticeable upgrade.


and Jarvis Green His deal is essentially for 2 years and $7.5 million.


and LaKevin Smith and Hochstien Acquired for one 5th round pick. Anyone trying to characterize a trade where you get a young developing DE and a solid, versatile starting OL for a single 5th round pick as an "overpay" as taken a walk right off the logic map.


were nothing short of pathetic yet Hoch's name keeps getting mentioned as a possible starter at center this year! Hochstein is a solid player who can play any spot on the line and has even lined up as a FB in goal line formations. He saved out asses last year when he took over for the ghost of Ben Hamilton and turned in a decent performance. He's not a guy you want starting long term, but that's not what he's here for. At best, he's going to start at LG or C until one of the youngsters takes his spot, which will probably be sooner rather than later.

As for Smith, he suffered an injury early in the preseason and was never really right the whole year. He won't have that problem this year and we'll have a much better idea what kind of player he can become.


Gaffney would be a back up on most teams yet he'll probably start for us Yes, he's our starter, but our offense really has 3 starting receivers and Gaffney is the 3rd progression in that group. As far as 3rd receivers go, Gaffney is one of the best in the league and would push for the #2 job on about half the teams in the league.


being the young guys in this year draft will enter camp gimpy.


Gaffney didn't have the dropped ball issues with us last year like he did at New England I don't recall Gaffney ever having issues dropping passes. Are you sure you're not thinking of Donte Stallworth, the guy who Gaffney replaced in New England?


but with the added increase in work load I'm scared we'll find out why New England let him go as well. They didn't let him go. His contract was up and we signed him as a free agent.

[Bosco]

Paxton and Leech are comparable and Leech came $2mil cheaper.

Comparable in the sense that they're both very good long snappers, but Paxton is better and only cost $250k a year more.

[silkamilkamonico]

If he's no better than Moss then it's a wasted move of course that's assuming Moss will be released.

I don't see that as a wasted move. If he's no better than Moss, then we've replaced 1 reject with another. We don't waste anything, because Moss is alread a reject. This guy might not be. I'll take the chance that this guy maybe even plays a little on special teams. If he's just as bad, then it didn]t work out, but nothing certainly wasn't wasted.

[claymore]

I don't see that as a wasted move. If he's no better than Moss, then we've replaced 1 reject with another. We don't waste anything, because Moss is alread a reject. This guy might not be. I'll take the chance that this guy maybe even plays a little on special teams. If he's just as bad, then it didn]t work out, but nothing certainly wasn't wasted.

Its a move sideways. Hopefully he can contribute on ST's or something.

[TXBRONC]

I don't see that as a wasted move. If he's no better than Moss, then we've replaced 1 reject with another. We don't waste anything, because Moss is alread a reject. This guy might not be. I'll take the chance that this guy maybe even plays a little on special teams. If he's just as bad, then it didn]t work out, but nothing certainly wasn't wasted.

I guess we'll just disagree there. If this guy is a flop then that's three stops he's failed at. This guy has been trying to make this transition for two years while Moss has been at it for only one.

[silkamilkamonico]

I guess we'll just disagree there. If this guy is a flop then that's three stops he's failed at. This guy has been trying to make this transition for two years while Moss has been at it for only one.

Well, do you have a faint glimmer of hope for Moss? Because I certainly do not.

[Bosco]

I guess we'll just disagree there. If this guy is a flop then that's three stops he's failed at. This guy has been trying to make this transition for two years while Moss has been at it for only one.

But who really cares if he flops? Doom is the starter and a damn good one at that and now Moss gets to battle with Davis to see who gets to stick as the developmental guy. If he doesn't work out, we don't really lose anything at all.

[Tempus Fugit]

But who really cares if he flops? Doom is the starter and a damn good one at that and now Moss gets to battle with Davis to see who gets to stick as the developmental guy. If he doesn't work out, we don't really lose anything at all.

Fantasy football, televised drafts and the internet are combining to create millions of people who think they know better than every coach about every single decision. I'll grant that some decisions are obviously stupid (Cutting Brady or Manning this week would be an easy example), but people pissing and moaning about the back 10-20 players on a roster are usually going to be talking out of their backsides. When you're talking about non-starters on the bubble, even the most rabid fans are generally not going to know enough about the inner workings of the team to make any sort of informed decision, unless important news becomes public (guy's a locker room problem, played through injury, etc...).

[Bosco]

Fantasy football, televised drafts and the internet are combining to create millions of people who think they know better than every coach about every single decision.

Ain't that the truth!

[arapaho2]

If their "trash" is better than our players why should you be tired out IMPROVING the breeding stock so to speak.

Why the hell should we keep the turds just because they are mikeys?

I'd rather have a better player myself NO MATTER where it comes from.

Remember in this case he was drafted by PIT where breaking into the LB lineup is really tough. Some of the best of the best work there.

Now IF we cut someone who is CLEARY better than he is YOU have a legit compliant until then your showing your ASS and FRANKLY your better than that.
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forgive me for i know naught....but how would picking up players the patriots dont want on thier team...improve a team modeled after...the patriots??

[Denver Native (Carol)]

forgive me for i know naught....but how would picking up players the patriots dont want on thier team...improve a team modeled after...the patriots??

Possibly the Patriots were "overstocked" at this position

[Lonestar]

forgive me for i know naught....but how would picking up players the patriots dont want on thier team...improve a team modeled after...the patriots??



IF they are better than the players on OUR squad well that is an improvement or an UPGRADE. That help?

Regardless of where they come from.

[arapaho2]

Possibly the Patriots were "overstocked" at this position


riiiiigghht:rolleyes:

[arapaho2]

IF they are better than the players on OUR squad well that is an improvement or an UPGRADE. That help?




Regardless of where they come from.



so is he better?...or his better simply meaning he was a patriot...like lonnie paxton

[Lonestar]

so is he better?...or his better simply meaning he was a patriot...like lonnie paxton

NOte the following about Paxton


Comparable in the sense that they're both very good long snappers, but Paxton is better and only cost $250k a year more.


If their "trash" is better than our players why should you be tired out IMPROVING the breeding stock so to speak.

Why the hell should we keep the turds just because they are mikeys?

I'd rather have a better player myself NO MATTER where it comes from.

Remember in this case he was drafted by PIT where breaking into the LB lineup is really tough. Some of the best of the best work there.

Now IF we cut someone who is CLEARY better than he is YOU have a legit compliant until then your showing your ASS and FRANKLY your better than that.
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There have been two things I intially have not liked about Josh.

One was getting Paxton while Leach was. Adamned fine LS fill in TE and FB. He was one of my adoptees
But then one of the punters commented that Paxton came in and asked him exactly where do you want the ball delivered, do you like it high-low, left or right. I told him and after a couple of snaps he placed it there every time.

When you have that kind of control your worth the extra money. IMHO.
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So why not let it play out before using the term dumpster diving.

Josh has pulled in players that are TEAM players while allowing the Divas to go.

I realize that initially those seem to be BAD. Give the guy a break till they actually play a game.

IF those players ultimatey start over older Broncos what does that say about the talent level he was left with.

Pat fired jay for being a petulant diva.

Marshall was a head case talented yes but is a walking time bomb.

Scheffler frankly never saw what Y'all did.

Hillis not for sure why he was not played last year. Lots of diffenrent opines there thta NO ONE knows for sure.
Leach well Paxton is an upgrade see my post above about that

But you have to know Josh is decisive and will bring in players from anywhere to compete with exsisting ones.

What the hell is wrong with that.

IF he gets rid of anyone and a former Pat replaces him there is a reason for it and if it is NOT then Y'all will get your wishes in a few years and he is gone.


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I repeat IF this kid is better than who he may ultimately replaces then wheres the beef?

If he is not he will be one of about 27 we cut before the season starts.

I'm sure a few may be EX pats which will really make you happy.

BFD


Need to let go of the hate.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

riiiiigghht:rolleyes:

Well, then prove what I said wrong.:rolleyes:

[GEM]

NOte the following about Paxton


Originally Posted by Bosco View Post
Comparable in the sense that they're both very good long snappers, but Paxton is better and only cost $250k a year more.



I repeat IF this kid is better than who he may ultimately replaces then wheres the beef?

If he is not he will be one of about 27 we cut before the season starts.

I'm sure a few may be EX pats which will really make you happy.

BFD


Need to let go of the hate.



That bolded quote by Bosco is incorrect:

http://www.kffl.com/player/6548/nfl

Broncos | Contract breakdown: M. Leach
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Thu, 16 Mar 2006 01:54:42 -0500

Denver Broncos TE/LS Mike Leach signed a four-year contract with base salaries of $585,000 (2006), $720,000 (2007), $730,000 (2008) and $740,000 (2009).

Read more: http://www.kffl.com/player/6548/nfl#ixzz0pk1KmlZT


http://http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/02/lonie_paxton_to.html

Long snapper Lonie Paxton has agreed to terms with the Denver Broncos, according to a league source.

Paxton's deal makes him the second highest paid long-snapper in the NFL. It is a five-year, $5.3 million package that includes a $1 million signing bonus.

__________________________________________________ ___________

So Leech's contract was a year shorter, but equalled to $2,775,000. Lonnie's made him the 2nd highest paid long snapper at 5 yrs $5,300,000. So tell me...how is that even close to only $275,000 different?

I'm looking at a $2,525,000 difference.

[Tempus Fugit]

forgive me for i know naught....but how would picking up players the patriots dont want on thier team...improve a team modeled after...the patriots??

Team "A" and "B" are running the same offensive model

Team "A" has 5 excellent running backs.

Team "A" doesn't want to spend the cap room all on running backs, so it cuts one of the running backs.

Team "B" has only one excellent running back.

Team "B" signs the excellent running back that was formerly on team "A" and team "B" is improved as a result.

This should be basic stuff for pretty much anyone who plays sports. Now, I don't think that's going to apply in this case, if you're looking for a positional player who can start for you. The Patriots linebacking corps sucked last year. However, here's the breakdown of the LBs in Patriots camp this year...

ILBs:

Jerod Mayo - former DROY who struggled due to a sprained knee last season
Spikes - Rookie 2nd round pick
McKenzie - 3rd round pick from last year who missed the season due to an ACL injury.
Guyton - UDFA who's solid against the pass and weak against the run, and will be the team's passing down LB
Alexander - excellent special teams player

OLBs:

Tully Banta Cain - the only linebacker who really played well for the Patriots
Burgess - converted 4-3 DE who'll be a pass rushing specialist
Crable - 2 straight seasons on the IR, but a 3rd round draft pick
Cunningham - Rookie 2nd round pick
Ninkovich - Improving backup who missed multiple development years due to injury
Woods - excellent special teams player and acceptable backup OLB

Davis wasn't likely to have any shot beating out the young guys, who'll be battling each other for roster spots, and Adalius Thomas is the only player of any note who moved on during the offseason.

[Dzone]

Jarvis Moss-What a disaster...why they picked this injury prone skinny rail, who knows????Then he tried to quit the team, but realized how much money he stood to lose and came running back...doesnt want to be here...ONE of the worst pics in history

[Lonestar]

I'm not particularly thrilled with this pickup for two reasons:


Russ Hochstein and Le Kevin Smith are ex-Pats that didn't do much, and both played enough that they had opportunities. I think McDaniels thinks a bit too highly of third and fourth tier Patriot linemen.

But the BIG reason I don't like this move is that we already have a good prospect at Outside Linebacker in our 7th round pick this year - Jammie Kirlew. That guy has a motor and he will be a player for us.

I guess it boils down to When we kept Hockstien and Smith whom did we cut to make room for them.

Frankly I do not remember BUT I'll bet the were NO better than those two.

Our LOS players save Clady, Kuper and maybe Harris. Have frankly sucked at playing REAL football.

While the old oline did a good job in 08 they were playing ZBS that is a FAILED scheme that could not get the job done without HOF players either blocking for it or playing behind it.

Sure it was gerat between the 20's but the REAL area that we have failed in the RZ since TD, JOHN, and Zimmerman Etal retired.

Dem the facts.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Bosco]

Jarvis Moss-What a disaster... He's had 3 years in the league. Year 1 he was taking his fair share of playing time before he broke his leg. Year 2 he had to put up with Bob Slowik's bastardized offense. Year 3 he transitioned to a new position.


why they picked this injury prone skinny rail, who knows???? Because that year he was the best pass rusher not named Gaines Adams and was a perfect fit for Jim Bates scheme.


Then he tried to quit the team, but realized how much money he stood to lose and came running back...doesnt want to be here... What a crock. He had a personal issue (no one even knows what) and McD gave him some time to sort through it, after which he came back, worked hard and had a very good preseason.


ONE of the worst pics in history There have been worse.

[TXBRONC]

Possibly the Patriots were "overstocked" at this position

If they thought he had value Carol they would have traded him.

[Bosco]

If they thought he had value Carol they would have traded him.

Not necessarily. They dumped Kevin O'Connell last year and he got picked up by the Lions who in turn flipped him to the Jets for a late round pick.

[Lonestar]

Love how all the arm chair GM's and HC on here know so much about players and how they are talent wise.

I realize that everyone has an opinion but to be so hard on a player they KNOW absolutely nothing about is beyond logical.

Now if someone had actually seen him play and knew something other than he was drafted by PIT and moved on to the hated PAts, it would be enlightening.

But since BECAUSE he was a PAT he has to be a skell.

They know nothing about his stats or skills.

Had he been directly from the Steelers then most would be raving about him.

UFB

[TXBRONC]

Not necessarily. They dumped Kevin O'Connell last year and he got picked up by the Lions who in turn flipped him to the Jets for a late round pick.

Wrong. So the hell what the Lions picked him up and then turned around got late round pick for him. That doesn't by any stretch mean that the Patriots thought he was worth anything. All you did was demostrate that Lions thought the could get something for him.

[Bosco]

Wrong. Really?

http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2009/9/6/1018364/lions-claim-marcus-mccauley-trade


That doesn't by any stretch mean that the Patriots thought he was worth anything. You're right. I'm sure one of the best personnel teams in the NFL just misjudged the value their former 3rd round quarterback had, especially with the added value of spending a year working with McDaniels.

Yeah, that's much more likely.

[Elevation inc]

so is he better?...or his better simply meaning he was a patriot...like lonnie paxton

well paxton does happen to be one of the top LS in the league and actually is better than mike leach....so thats kinda of a bad example....becase while it seemed uneccessary, paxton was a upgrade....even if it was only a small upgrade

[rcsodak]

Yet another Patriot reject added to the mix. I'm guessing the offensive plays from last season were fished out of a dumpster by Mcd as he left his beloved Patriots on his way to Denver. I'm getting very tired of Mcd's love affair with his former team at the expense of my favorite team.

Because we'd ALL rather have multiple players from those win-challenged Browns....



:rolleyes:

[rcsodak]

We get it, you hate all things Shanny.

I'd love to have a better player than Moss or at any other position we can upgrade at but just because the guy is a former Patriot doesn't mean he is. Mcd's love affair with his former team is wearing thin with me. It's to the point when New England cuts somebody I cringe of the thought that another New England reject will probably become a new Bronco. Denver way over paid for Paxton and Jarvis Green and LaKevin Smith and Hochstien were nothing short of pathetic yet Hoch's name keeps getting mentioned as a possible starter at center this year! Gaffney would be a back up on most teams yet he'll probably start for us being the young guys in this year draft will enter camp gimpy. Gaffney didn't have the dropped ball issues with us last year like he did at New England but with the added increase in work load I'm scared we'll find out why New England let him go as well.

Show me where HC's coming from another team DON'T bring in players that they are knowledgeable of, and your 'argument' might have some merit.

In the meantime, we get your hate for all things McD.

[broncofaninfla]

I don't think Paxton was a bad move, I'd say more of a unnecessary move. Leach was a stud at the position and didn't cost much. Add to that he was well liked and respected, his ousting reportedly ruffled some feathers with the players, Stokely was even quoted saying so.

[claymore]

Not sure I believe pay should be a determining factor.

To date, I haven't seen the new LS being a bad move?

So please describe how it was a good move. How did it help the Broncos?

[rcsodak]

forgive me for i know naught....but how would picking up players the patriots dont want on thier team...improve a team modeled after...the patriots??

Depth might have something to do with it.

If the players ahead of him are better than the players on the Broncos, who's to say he's not better as well?
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/bruce-davis?id=1695#tabs:tab-analysis

One of the most explosive pass rush threats out of the Pac-10 since the days of Terrell Suggs, Davis used a quick first step and high motor to post 24.5 sacks over the past two years from his defensive end position. In the NFL, Davis' lack of size and strength at the point of attack will force a move to linebacker. Scouts got to watch Davis perform in this role throughout much of Senior Bowl week. Though raw, he showed the athleticism to make this transition.

They already have Suggs...

[rcsodak]

Well, then prove what I said wrong.:rolleyes:


riiiigghht :rolleyes:

[Ravage!!!]

well paxton does happen to be one of the top LS in the league and actually is better than mike leach....so thats kinda of a bad example....becase while it seemed uneccessary, paxton was a upgrade....even if it was only a small upgrade

How is he better than Leach? Can you ever recall a time where leach missed a snap or missed a block? That being said, how is Paxton better? If a 'lesser' player doesn't miss on the snaps, if he doesn't miss a block, if he has always performed at a spectacular level.... what is there to gain by spending the money for this "better" player (other than he being a player McD would recognize in the locker room)?

[rcsodak]

Wrong. So the hell what the Lions picked him up and then turned around got late round pick for him. That doesn't by any stretch mean that the Patriots thought he was worth anything. All you did was demostrate that Lions thought the could get something for him.


Originally Posted by Bosco
Not necessarily. They dumped Kevin O'Connell last year and he got picked up by the Lions who in turn flipped him to the Jets for a late round pick.
LMAO...

Only you could make a point that goes against your point.....


:laugh:

[rcsodak]

I don't think Paxton was a bad move, I'd say more of a unnecessary move. Leach was a stud at the position and didn't cost much. Add to that he was well liked and respected, his ousting reportedly ruffled some feathers with the players, Stokely was even quoted saying so.

Waa!

So because BS lost his beer drinking partner we should all be up in arms?

He was the freakin' long snapper! A year older than Paxson and 40# lighter.

[rcsodak]

So please describe how it was a good move. How did it help the Broncos?

How did it hurt? Ya'll are the ones making the charges. To date, has he lost any games?

[claymore]

How did it hurt? Ya'll are the ones making the charges. To date, has he lost any games?

It hurt because it was an unnecessary move. It only caused a mild distraction. It did nothing to benefit the Broncos.

Paxton has lost and won as many games for the Broncos as Leach has.

[TXBRONC]

Really?

http://www.prideofdetroit.com/2009/9/6/1018364/lions-claim-marcus-mccauley-trade

You're right. I'm sure one of the best personnel teams in the NFL just misjudged the value their former 3rd round quarterback had, especially with the added value of spending a year working with McDaniels.

Yeah, that's much more likely.

Oh my is this a joke? Brace yourself but even the Patriots miss on picks. Have you ever heard Chad Jackson? He was a second round pick and they released him. Now if you are really with then you also Denver picked him up in '08 but what McDaniels do with him? He released him!

According to you O'Connell was a third round pick correct? Yet they released him not traded but released and that's after spending a year with McDaniels. Yeah they so highly of pick that they released him instead of trading him. What's this bull shit about added value? Former 3rd pick traded for a 7th round pick that's added value just because he spent ONE YEAR with McDaniels? :rofl: Yep the Lions hustled the shit out Jets didn't they? That's like picking up 100lbs of aluminum and getting $1.00 for it.

You're a smart guy and you know a lot about football but you're wrong on this one.

[Lonestar]

I don't think Paxton was a bad move, I'd say more of a unnecessary move. Leach was a stud at the position and didn't cost much. Add to that he was well liked and respected, his ousting reportedly ruffled some feathers with the players, Stokely was even quoted saying so.


so lets just keep all of the OK players because "his ousting reportedly ruffled some feathers "

Time to figure out that this team needed ruffling. it is well on the way to beaching a TEAM.

I liked Mike probably more than anyone else as I thought he was great BUT PAXTON was an upgrade if you listen to the punters and holders. They are the ones that count.

I thought Leach took the pansy way out to ask for his release within minutes of hearing of Paxtons signing instead of staying and competing for the job. And he was one of my adoptees for YEARS.

No one on this forum or mania supported his being on the team when everyone was whining about him being the 18th string TE.

HE was often down on or near the tackle on punts, but then so was Lonnie saw him in the same spot as I often saw Mike. Plus his accuracy at ball placement was a HUGE upgrade. no Fubars on his watch.

[TXBRONC]

LMAO...

Only you could make a point that goes against your point.....


:laugh:

If you think that then you're not to swift. :coffee:

[Lonestar]

Please folks name one player still with the team that Josh has brought in that was not an upgrade over an existing player.

So he brings folks in for a look see, EVERY TEAM does this in the offseason.

That is why we have room for 80 before TC and we have to cut down to 53 for the regular season. that means YOU HAVE to CUT 27 players or more.

You bring them in and see if they fit in your scheme and IF they have the talent to stick, if they do not at WORST case scenario you put some heat on the people that beat them out.

HOW is that BAD, just because he was a PAT or Steeler. tow teams that most fans hate because they flat are good and are winners.

Talk about envy, most would rather have players from DET (tater ring a bell) pardon that pun or browncos. But heaven forbid we bring players in that are remotely familiar with our scheme and come from winning programs.

FFCS I do not get that mentality.

[MadMax]

so lets just keep all of the OK players because "his ousting reportedly ruffled some feathers "

Time to figure out that this team needed ruffling. it is well on the way to beaching a TEAM.

I liked Mike probably more than anyone else as I thought he was great BUT PAXTON was an upgrade if you listen to the punters and holders. They are the ones that count.

I thought Leach took the pansy way out to ask for his release within minutes of hearing of Paxtons signing instead of staying and competing for the job. And he was one of my adoptees for YEARS.

No one on this forum or mania supported his being on the team when everyone was whining about him being the 18th string TE.

HE was often down on or near the tackle on punts, but then so was Lonnie saw him in the same spot as I often saw Mike. Plus his accuracy at ball placement was a HUGE upgrade. no Fubars on his watch.

A bit of revisionist history here???

As far as I recall Mike Leach had no history of "Fubars", and was routinely ranked in the top five for his position. Second, not only have I not heard the punters say anything about the quality of snaps, I don't think I've ever even heard a reporter ask a punter about the quality of snaps, i mean wtf cares?

I'm with the other crowd, both of these guys are excellent LS, it was an unnecessary move.

As far as Mike Leach asking for a release, I seem to recall the Broncos cutting him the next day after the signing, I never saw an article claiming he asked for a release. And even if he did, it was the right choice, teams don't pick up LS' mid-season, that is a position that is settled as soon as possible and never looked at again(which is why the Paxton signing was so surprising), anyways if he had "competed"(if that was even a choice) it would have just meant getting cut at the end of the pre-season then probably having to take a season off because nobody is going to mess with that position mid-season.

[Bosco]

his ousting reportedly ruffled some feathers with the players, Stokely was even quoted saying so.[/COLOR] [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR]

Then it did exactly what it was meant to do.


Oh my is this a joke? Brace yourself but even the Patriots miss on picks. Have you ever heard Chad Jackson? He was a second round pick and they released him. Now if you are really with then you also Denver picked him up in '08 but what McDaniels do with him? He released him!

According to you O'Connell was a third round pick correct? Yet they released him not traded but released and that's after spending a year with McDaniels. Yeah they so highly of pick that they released him instead of trading him. What's this bull shit about added value? Former 3rd pick traded for a 7th round pick that's added value just because he spent ONE YEAR with McDaniels? :rofl: Yep the Lions hustled the shit out Jets didn't they? That's like picking up 100lbs of aluminum and getting $1.00 for it.

You're a smart guy and you know a lot about football but you're wrong on this one.

I'm sorry but where are you going with this? You claimed he didn't have any value if the Pats just outright cut him and I gave one example (there might be more) of when they outright cut another player even though he did have trade value.


As far as I recall Mike Leach had no history of "Fubars", and was routinely ranked in the top five for his position. Second, not only have I not heard the punters say anything about the quality of snaps, I don't think I've ever even heard a reporter ask a punter about the quality of snaps, i mean wtf cares? Yep, Leach was a very good long snapper. No denying that.


I'm with the other crowd, both of these guys are excellent LS, it was an unnecessary move. $250k for a known upgrade who also brought the same type of locker room mentality Josh was looking for? I'd say that was a good move.


As far as Mike Leach asking for a release, I seem to recall the Broncos cutting him the next day after the signing, I never saw an article claiming he asked for a release. And even if he did, it was the right choice, teams don't pick up LS' mid-season, that is a position that is settled as soon as possible and never looked at again(which is why the Paxton signing was so surprising), anyways if he had "competed"(if that was even a choice) it would have just meant getting cut at the end of the pre-season then probably having to take a season off because nobody is going to mess with that position mid-season. I agree. If he did in fact ask for his release, I'd have no problem with that.

[Slick]

Fantasy football, televised drafts and the internet are combining to create millions of people who think they know better than every coach about every single decision. I'll grant that some decisions are obviously stupid (Cutting Brady or Manning this week would be an easy example), but people pissing and moaning about the back 10-20 players on a roster are usually going to be talking out of their backsides. When you're talking about non-starters on the bubble, even the most rabid fans are generally not going to know enough about the inner workings of the team to make any sort of informed decision, unless important news becomes public (guy's a locker room problem, played through injury, etc...).


Ain't that the truth!

Sure glad the two of you decided to grace us with your presence.

[arapaho2]

NOte the following about Paxton












I repeat IF this kid is better than who he may ultimately replaces then wheres the beef?



If he is not he will be one of about 27 we cut before the season starts.


I'm sure a few may be EX pats which will really make you happy.


BFD



Need to let go of the hate.




says the pot to the kettle


also....given the fact leach never once in his career missed a snap...how is paxton better?

[arapaho2]

That bolded quote by Bosco is incorrect:

http://www.kffl.com/player/6548/nfl

Broncos | Contract breakdown: M. Leach
Comment (0) Tweet! Share on Facebook

Thu, 16 Mar 2006 01:54:42 -0500

Denver Broncos TE/LS Mike Leach signed a four-year contract with base salaries of $585,000 (2006), $720,000 (2007), $730,000 (2008) and $740,000 (2009).

Read more: http://www.kffl.com/player/6548/nfl#ixzz0pk1KmlZT


http://http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/02/lonie_paxton_to.html

Long snapper Lonie Paxton has agreed to terms with the Denver Broncos, according to a league source.

Paxton's deal makes him the second highest paid long-snapper in the NFL. It is a five-year, $5.3 million package that includes a $1 million signing bonus.

__________________________________________________ ___________

So Leech's contract was a year shorter, but equalled to $2,775,000. Lonnie's made him the 2nd highest paid long snapper at 5 yrs $5,300,000. So tell me...how is that even close to only $275,000 different?

I'm looking at a $2,525,000 difference.


i thinks he was better cause he's an ex patriot.....that necessitates the extra money and not the fact leach never missed a snap once

[broncofaninfla]

Show me where HC's coming from another team DON'T bring in players that they are knowledgeable of, and your 'argument' might have some merit.

In the meantime, we get your hate for all things McD.

Show me where any of these players have truly made us a better team and were a verifiable upgrade at thier postion.

I'm a "show me the money" kind of guy and Mcd hasn't shown me much. I haven't been impressed with his play calling or his offensive schemes to date BUT am optimisc the offense will improve in 2010 because he has bascially run out of excuses. He has his players running his scheme with his play calls so in theory Denver should be much better offensivly in 2010 right?

[Bosco]

That bolded quote by Bosco is incorrect:

http://www.kffl.com/player/6548/nfl

Broncos | Contract breakdown: M. Leach
Comment (0) Tweet! Share on Facebook

Thu, 16 Mar 2006 01:54:42 -0500

Denver Broncos TE/LS Mike Leach signed a four-year contract with base salaries of $585,000 (2006), $720,000 (2007), $730,000 (2008) and $740,000 (2009).

Read more: http://www.kffl.com/player/6548/nfl#ixzz0pk1KmlZT


http://http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/02/lonie_paxton_to.html

Long snapper Lonie Paxton has agreed to terms with the Denver Broncos, according to a league source.

Paxton's deal makes him the second highest paid long-snapper in the NFL. It is a five-year, $5.3 million package that includes a $1 million signing bonus.

__________________________________________________ ___________

So Leech's contract was a year shorter, but equalled to $2,775,000. Lonnie's made him the 2nd highest paid long snapper at 5 yrs $5,300,000. So tell me...how is that even close to only $275,000 different?

I'm looking at a $2,525,000 difference.

$250k is the yearly difference between their base salaries.

[broncofaninfla]

Then it did exactly what it was meant to do.



I'm sorry but where are you going with this? You claimed he didn't have any value if the Pats just outright cut him and I gave one example (there might be more) of when they outright cut another player even though he did have trade value.

Yep, Leach was a very good long snapper. No denying that.

$250k for a known upgrade who also brought the same type of locker room mentality Josh was looking for? I'd say that was a good move.

I agree. If he did in fact ask for his release, I'd have no problem with that.

Im beginning to think I'm talking to Mcd himself, LOL!

So you are saying there was an ulterior motive for replacing Leach? How does it benifit the Broncos by replacing a proven performer and postive locker room presence?

[broncofaninfla]

$250k is the yearly difference between their base salaries.

Was that worth the desention it caused in the locker room? Is Paxton really worth that much more that Leach? I have a problem when a player from another team, any team, is given more money than a proven Bronco at the same position.....

[Bosco]

Show me where any of these players have truly made us a better team and were a verifiable upgrade at thier postion.

Hochstein and Gaffney.

[Bosco]

Was that worth the desention it caused in the locker room? Absolutely.


Is Paxton really worth that much more that Leach? $250k is chump change in the NFL, so yes, it's worth it.


I have a problem when a player from another team, any team, is given more money than a proven Bronco at the same position..... Then you might want to find another sport to watch, because it'll happen often.

[claymore]

Hochstein and Gaffney.

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha!!! HFS!!!!!!!! :lol:

:pound:


:spit:

[broncofaninfla]

Hochstein and Gaffney.

Hochstien was nothing short of pathetic in every postion he was played in. In fact he seemed worse than Hamilton at times and the rushing offense got worse with him at the helm.

Exactly who was Gaffney better than? Former Patriot Chad Jackson???

[claymore]

Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaha!!! HFS!!!!!!!! :lol:

:pound:


:spit:

:pound:

HFS..... Ahhhh.... Ohhhhh

:spit:

Bwaaaaaaaaaahahahaha!!!!!

[claymore]

Hochstein and Gaffney.

Can I start calling you Hochstein ? Bosco Hochstein !!!!!

[Dreadnought]

Hochstien was nothing short of pathetic in every postion he was played in. In fact he seemed worse than Hamilton at times and the rushing offense got worse with him at the helm.

Exactly who was Gaffney better than? Former Patriot Chad Jackson???

Gaffney > Marcus Nash

Hochstein > Nobody. He is a stiff

[broncofaninfla]

Absolutely.

$250k is chump change in the NFL, so yes, it's worth it.

Then you might want to find another sport to watch, because it'll happen often.

How was the dessention worth it? What postive effect did that have on the Broncos?

[Softskull]

HE was often down on or near the tackle on punts, but then so was Lonnie saw him in the same spot as I often saw Mike. Plus his accuracy at ball placement was a HUGE upgrade. no Fubars on his watch.

from Peter King 8/28/27 in ranking his to 5000 players. Leach made the list at 1000:

Such is the value of a player like Leach, who in 4 1D 2 seasons with Denver has made 641 regular-season snaps, and every one was spot on; the only muffed exchange in that time came when the holder turned his head away after calling the signal.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/peter_king/08/28/leach0903/index.html

[Bosco]

Hochstien was nothing short of pathetic in every postion he was played in. In fact he seemed worse than Hamilton at times and the rushing offense got worse with him at the helm. I suggest you go back and watch some game film. Hochstein was a vast improvement over Hamilton's corpse, which for was getting absolutely destroyed by Wilfork, Ngata, and Hampton.

Hamilton honestly should have never opened the season as the starter.


Exactly who was Gaffney better than? Former Patriot Chad Jackson??? Stokley for one, although their roles are bit different in this offense. Gaffney also had the benefit of knowing all 3 of the receiver positions in this offense.

[GEM]

Then it did exactly what it was meant to do.



I'm sorry but where are you going with this? You claimed he didn't have any value if the Pats just outright cut him and I gave one example (there might be more) of when they outright cut another player even though he did have trade value.

Yep, Leach was a very good long snapper. No denying that.

$250k for a known upgrade who also brought the same type of locker room mentality Josh was looking for? I'd say that was a good move.

I agree. If he did in fact ask for his release, I'd have no problem with that.

Where are you getting this $250K that was $275K yesterday in one of your posts?


http://www.kffl.com/player/6548/nfl

Broncos | Contract breakdown: M. Leach
Comment (0) Tweet! Share on Facebook

Thu, 16 Mar 2006 01:54:42 -0500

Denver Broncos TE/LS Mike Leach signed a four-year contract with base salaries of $585,000 (2006), $720,000 (2007), $730,000 (2008) and $740,000 (2009).

Read more: http://www.kffl.com/player/6548/nfl#ixzz0pk1KmlZT


http://http://www.boston.com/sports/...paxton_to.html

Long snapper Lonie Paxton has agreed to terms with the Denver Broncos, according to a league source.

Paxton's deal makes him the second highest paid long-snapper in the NFL. It is a five-year, $5.3 million package that includes a $1 million signing bonus.

__________________________________________________ ___________

So Leech's contract was a year shorter, but equalled to $2,775,000. Lonnie's made him the 2nd highest paid long snapper at 5 yrs $5,300,000. So tell me...how is that even close to only $275,000 different?

I'm looking at a $2,525,000 difference.

[claymore]

from Peter King 8/28/27 in ranking his to 5000 players;

Such is the value of a player like Leach, who in 4 1D 2 seasons with Denver has made 641 regular-season snaps, and every one was spot on; the only muffed exchange in that time came when the holder turned his head away after calling the signal.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/peter_king/08/28/leach0903/index.html

He was a locker room menace though.

[Bosco]

How was the dessention worth it? What postive effect did that have on the Broncos?

Because it shook up the establishment in the locker room and caused the holdovers to look to their former Patriot peers to see what would be expected of them.

[Bosco]

Where are you getting this $250K that was $275K yesterday in one of your posts?

Which post did I say the difference was $275k?

[Softskull]

He was a locker room menace though.

Yep. The troublemaker was voted special teams captain the year before he was replace. I think we're labeling those guys whiney prima donnas now.

[GEM]

Which post did I say the difference was $275k?

I went back, I apologize, you stated $250K.....does that really matter when cold hard facts show that you've been posting a bullshit number and using it as fact? There's a HUGE difference between $250K and $2,525,000.

[GEM]

That is wasted freaking money on a guy that was brought in only because of a personal relationship. Leach wasn't a locker room issue, in fact he was a clean veteran who did his job, did it well and didn't require to be the 2nd highest paid in the league.

I don't get on McD for a lot of stuff, but that move was just screaming STUPIDITY.

[Bosco]

I went back, I apologize, you stated $250K... No problem.


does that really matter when cold hard facts show that you've been posting a bullshit number and using it as fact? There's a HUGE difference between $250K and $2,525,000. And as I said, you're using the total value of the contracts, not the yearly value. This is relevant because Leach's deal was signed in 2006 and set to expire this year, while Paxton was on a new deal.

[Bosco]

That is wasted freaking money Even if it was, so what? It's not your money and $250k is such a small amount of the total cap space that it's almost not even worth blinking an eye at.


on a guy that was brought in only because of a personal relationship. And to help install the locker room mentality McD wanted.


Leach wasn't a locker room issue, in fact he was a clean veteran who did his job, did it well Agreed, but McD obviously had no way of knowing that. Paxton was a known commodity.


and didn't require to be the 2nd highest paid in the league. As I said in my previous post, Leach's contract was set to expire soon so he would have needed a new deal.

[arapaho2]

Because it shook up the establishment in the locker room and caused the holdovers to look to their former Patriot peers to see what would be expected of them.


yeah sure thats what every team needs....a locker room full of players seeing that it dont matter how well you play...how great you are in your postition...how solid and team oriented you are

if the coach sees a player released from his former team...and he plays your position

chances are your gonna get released so he can replace you with a patriot :coffee:


yeah thats really builds team morale:lol:

[arapaho2]

Even if it was, so what? It's not your money and $250k is such a small amount of the total cap space that it's almost not even worth blinking an eye at.

And to help install the locker room mentality McD wanted.

Agreed, but McD obviously had no way of knowing that. Paxton was a known commodity.

As I said in my previous post, Leach's contract was set to expire soon so he would have needed a new deal.


it is our money...we buy tickets, jerseys, fan items...yeah

and mcd could ask for game tape...he could ask the team stat department..how many snaps did leach miss?...he just had no way of knowing ?:lol:

[claymore]

Well at least we found a way to sign Hochstein and Gaffney without blowing out the salary cap.

[Bosco]

yeah sure thats what every team needs....a locker room full of players seeing that it dont matter how well you play...how great you are in your postition...how solid and team oriented you are

if the coach sees a player released from his former team...and he plays your position

chances are your gonna get released so he can replace you with a patriot :coffee:


yeah thats really builds team morale:lol:

Actually it's exactly how they should feel. Lets them know that they are nothing more than a piece to a puzzle and they could easily be replaced if the team finds a piece that works better within their puzzle.

The Patriots dynasty is all based off that philosophy.

[GEM]

it is our money...we buy tickets, jerseys, fan items...yeah

and mcd could ask for game tape...he could ask the team stat department..how many snaps did leach miss?...he just had no way of knowing ?:lol:

Hell, he could have just read up a bit. He's had nothing but glowing reports since who knows when. That's just being stubborn and Bowlen is paying the bill.

[Bosco]

it is our money...we buy tickets, jerseys, fan items...yeah No it's not. The Denver Broncos are a business and you buy their product. Once that money changes hands, it's theirs and theirs alone.

If you want to test that theory, go buy something from your local grocery store tonight. Tomorrow morning go back and start telling them how to run their business since it's "your money" and see how long it takes for you to get laughed out of there.

[claymore]

**** the patriots!

[Slick]

Actually it's exactly how they should feel. Lets them know that they are nothing more than a piece to a puzzle and they could easily be replaced if the team finds a piece that works better within their puzzle.

The Patriots dynasty is all based off that philosophy.

Most of us get that, however we're also not sure he should have started with a long snapper.

[arapaho2]

Actually it's exactly how they should feel. Lets them know that they are nothing more than a piece to a puzzle and they could easily be replaced if the team finds a piece that works better within their puzzle.

The Patriots dynasty is all based off that philosophy.

the partriots dynasty is based off a HOF qb


and thinking you can do your ultimet best...be great in your position...be solid for the team and community....and be replaced for a guy that is no better then you simply because he played for the coaches favorite team

is in no way..shape or form...a benefit to a team or the lockerroom

[arapaho2]

Hell, he could have just read up a bit. He's had nothing but glowing reports since who knows when. That's just being stubborn and Bowlen is paying the bill.


yeah to just say...he brought in paxton because he had no way of knowing if leach was good is moronic at best

[TXBRONC]

Then it did exactly what it was meant to do.



I'm sorry but where are you going with this? You claimed he didn't have any value if the Pats just outright cut him and I gave one example (there might be more) of when they outright cut another player even though he did have trade value.

Yep, Leach was a very good long snapper. No denying that.

$250k for a known upgrade who also brought the same type of locker room mentality Josh was looking for? I'd say that was a good move.

I agree. If he did in fact ask for his release, I'd have no problem with that.

No what you did was provide a player that had no value for the Patriots even though he was 3rd pick. Belichick isn't a dumb ass if the guy was worth anything of real value he wouldn't have cut him he would have kept him or traded him. So what the Lions got 7th rounder for him BFD, 7th rounders get cut everyday. It's the same thing as going through the trouble of collecting 100lbs of aluminum cans and only getting $1.00 for the trouble.

This line of yours about how under McDaniels tutelage it added to O'Donnell value doesn't hold water. O'Donnell was a 3rd round pick all he was worth in trade was 7th round after being McDaniels wing for a year. It doesn't take a genius to figure out it did nothing to add to his value.

[Bosco]

the partriots dynasty is based off a HOF qb They won the first 2 of their 3 Super Bowls when Brady was just a slightly above average quarterback.


yeah to just say...he brought in paxton because he had no way of knowing if leach was good is moronic at best

Agreed. Too bad that's not what I said.

[Bosco]

No what you did was provide a player that had no value for the Patriots even though he was 3rd pick. Belichick isn't a dumb ass if the guy was worth anything of real value he wouldn't have cut him he would have kept him or traded him. So what the Lions got 7th rounder for him BFD

Uhh, yeah!

[arapaho2]

They won the first 2 of their 3 Super Bowls when Brady was just a slightly above average quarterback.



Agreed. Too bad that's not what I said.


sure they did...in charlie weises offense...not mcds

and in case you missed it...we dont have a slightly above average qb on the roster



gem; Leach wasn't a locker room issue, in fact he was a clean veteran who did his job, did it well


bosco: Agreed, but McD obviously had no way of knowing that. Paxton was a known commodity.



yeah yeah you did

[Bosco]

sure they did...in charlie weises offense...not mcds Correct.


and in case you missed it...we dont have a slightly above average qb on the roster Orton is above average, and his rating last year is higher than Brady's during the 2001 and 2003 seasons.


yeah yeah you did

I was addressing this part.


Leach wasn't a locker room issue, in fact he was a clean veteran

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I liked Davis at UCLA. The experts say it take s a few years to really complete the transition from college DE to NFL 3-4 OLB. Well, it's about the time he showed sumthin.

[arapaho2]

Correct.

Orton is above average, and his rating last year is higher than Brady's during the 2001 and 2003 seasons.



I was addressing this part.


so mcd had no way of knowing that about every player on the roster...right? sorry that excuse dont cut water

face it...he cut leach because he wanted his former player and was willing to waste cap space to get him...nothing more

lonnie is no better than leach was....makes you wonder why bellichek didnt want this glorious LS back in his folds dont it

[Lonestar]

I liked Davis at UCLA. The experts say it take s a few years to really complete the transition from college DE to NFL 3-4 OLB. Well, it's about the time he showed sumthin.

Finally an inteligent post that is on task. :salute:

If he does not it is no skin off anyones ass.

Not a ******* big deal some are trying to make it out to be.
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[Bosco]

so mcd had no way of knowing that about every player on the roster...right? sorry that excuse dont cut water Again, that's not what I said.


face it...he cut leach because he wanted his former player and was willing to waste cap space to get him...nothing more Why else would he do it.


lonnie is no better than leach was... Our punters and kickers seem to think so, as do most NFL coaches and scouts.

[jrelway]

Again, that's not what I said.

Why else would he do it.

Our punters and kickers seem to think so, as do most NFL coaches and scouts.

cmon man. you cant spend that much loot on a long snapper. Leach wasnt muffing anything up when he was playing.

[TXBRONC]

Orton is above average, and his rating last year is higher than Brady's during the 2001 and 2003 seasons.

No he's not above average.

Orton's 2008 rating: 86.8

Brady's ratings: 2001: 86.5

2003: 85.9

That dog wont hunt bud. :rofl:

Yeah Orton had a better qb rating BARELY. Orton's best year led to 8-8 record and while you tout how he as good as Brady was in 2001 and 2003 whose the one with rings? Yep it's that journeyman quarterback Brady. :lol:

This was the best year of Orton's career and yet his best led to an 8-8 record and on playoff appearance. It also the first time he ever had qb rating in the 80s (His career average is 76.9 yeah he's clearly above average :lol:). Brady's clearly inferior qb rating in those two seasons led to how many Championships again? Brady has also never had a qb rating rating below 83.9 since becoming a starter.

A better stat is completion percentage. Since becoming a starter has never had completion percentage below 60%. Orton on the other hand had never cleared 60% until this last season.

Orton has never been at the same level as Brady and more than likely never will. To try and compare the two is foolhardy.

[Bosco]

No he's not above average.

Yeah Orton had a better qb rating BARELY. So which is it? You acknowledge that Orton had the better rating but claim he's not above average.

It's one or the other.


Orton's best year led to 8-8 record and while you tout how he as good as Brady was in 2001 and 2003 whose the one with rings? Yep it's that journeyman quarterback Brady. :lol: Is it completely lost on you that they're both just a single piece to their teams puzzles? Brady's team being better (hence that #1 defense in 2003) has zero effect on individual performance comparisons.


This was the best year of Orton's career and yet his best led to an 8-8 record and on playoff appearance. It also the first time he ever had qb rating in the 80s (His career average is 76.9 yeah he's clearly above average :lol:). Brady's clearly inferior qb rating in those two seasons led to how many Championships again? Brady has also never had a qb rating rating below 83.9 since becoming a starter.

A better stat is completion percentage. Since becoming a starter has never had completion percentage below 60%. Orton on the other hand had never cleared 60% until this last season. So what?

[Bosco]

cmon man. you cant spend that much loot on a long snapper. Leach wasnt muffing anything up when he was playing.

Leach's deal with the Cards has an AAV of just slightly over $1 mil a year, which is about the exact same as Paxton.

[TXBRONC]

So which is it? You acknowledge that Orton had the better rating but claim he's not above average.

It's one or the other.

Is it completely lost on you that they're both just a single piece to their teams puzzles? Brady's team being better (hence that #1 defense in 2003) has zero effect on individual performance comparisons.
So what?

So if I say his qb rating was slightly better than Brady's was in 2001 and 2003 then I have he's an above average quarterback? What a crock one good year doesn't make him an above average quarterback.

There you go again trying change the subject when you know that what did was step all over yourself. You know that Orton has never been and more likely will never be. First you want to look at the two individually but when that didn't work you come back with a smart mouth comment on how it's lost on my about each quarterback within the context their teams. As you said which is? You can have both way. You made the comparison now that you got your ass handed to you want change the comparisons.

[Lonestar]

Team "A" and "B" are running the same offensive model

Team "A" has 5 excellent running backs.

Team "A" doesn't want to spend the cap room all on running backs, so it cuts one of the running backs.

Team "B" has only one excellent running back.

Team "B" signs the excellent running back that was formerly on team "A" and team "B" is improved as a result.

This should be basic stuff for pretty much anyone who plays sports. Now, I don't think that's going to apply in this case, if you're looking for a positional player who can start for you. The Patriots linebacking corps sucked last year. However, here's the breakdown of the LBs in Patriots camp this year...

ILBs:

Jerod Mayo - former DROY who struggled due to a sprained knee last season
Spikes - Rookie 2nd round pick
McKenzie - 3rd round pick from last year who missed the season due to an ACL injury.
Guyton - UDFA who's solid against the pass and weak against the run, and will be the team's passing down LB
Alexander - excellent special teams player

OLBs:

Tully Banta Cain - the only linebacker who really played well for the Patriots
Burgess - converted 4-3 DE who'll be a pass rushing specialist
Crable - 2 straight seasons on the IR, but a 3rd round draft pick
Cunningham - Rookie 2nd round pick
Ninkovich - Improving backup who missed multiple development years due to injury
Woods - excellent special teams player and acceptable backup OLB

Davis wasn't likely to have any shot beating out the young guys, who'll be battling each other for roster spots, and Adalius Thomas is the only player of any note who moved on during the offseason.


Great explanation of UPGRADING still may be over some folks heads.


FWIW just put a bunch of negative nannies on my IGGY list something I could not do with conscience as a moderator.

Now I do not have to read their crap.

Sure speeds up reading threads.

BTW anyone that wants can now put me on IGGY as I'm not longer a mod. MAKE my day:salute:

[Bosco]

So if I say his qb rating was slightly better than Brady's was in 2001 and 2003 then I have he's an above average quarterback? Unless you're going to claim that Brady was a below average quarterback.


What a crock one good year doesn't make him an above average quarterback. Agreed, but he was also having an excellent start to his 2008 season before he got hurt as well.


There you go again trying change the subject when you know that what did was step all over yourself. You know that Orton has never been and more likely will never be. First you want to look at the two individually but when that didn't work you come back with a smart mouth comment on how it's lost on my about each quarterback within the context their teams. As you said which is? You can have both way. You made the comparison now that you got your ass handed to you want change the comparisons.

Let's break down this debate in simple terms.

Arapaho: Brady is what made the Patriots dynasty.
Me: Not true. 2 of their 3 Super Bowl wins came when he was just an above average quarterback.
Arapaho: Yeah, well we don't have one of those!
Me: Sure we do. Orton's 2009 season was better than Brady's 2001 and 2003 seasons.
You: He's not above average, but here's the stat that proves Orton was better in 2009! Also, that doesn't matter since Brady won the Super Bowl in his above average years while Orton just went 8-8!
Me: We're not comparing team vs team, we're comparing player vs player.
You: You're changing the subject! Ha! I owned you.

Your turn now.

[GGMoogly]

I, too, thought L'affaire Leach/Paxton was an odd way to begin a coach's tenure. I also thought at the time, "Well...it IS the coach's prerogative, especially in a situation where the talent is roughly equal", and I didn't have any real problem with it...having been such a long time since I last jumped up and shouted, "Mike Leach, YOU MAGNIFICENT B*****D!!!"

It wasn't until the Cutler Fiasco, that I turned...dark, BUT that's a dead horse for another day! :deadhorse:

[bcbronc]

all else being equal, you can never have too many Superbowl rings in a dressing room. If Lonnie and Leach both make 100% of their snaps, then Lonnie's rings tip the scale.

[GGMoogly]

all else being equal, you can never have too many Superbowl rings in a dressing room. If Lonnie and Leach both make 100% of their snaps, then Lonnie's rings tip the scale.

That sounds reasonable enough. :coffee:

[Elevation inc]

How is he better than Leach? Can you ever recall a time where leach missed a snap or missed a block? That being said, how is Paxton better? If a 'lesser' player doesn't miss on the snaps, if he doesn't miss a block, if he has always performed at a spectacular level.... what is there to gain by spending the money for this "better" player (other than he being a player McD would recognize in the locker room)?

paxton is more than just our LS if you pay attention he is in some goalline formations and is on alot of special teams duty...leach didnt do that that he was a LS only.....i would say the move is probally closer to lateral than better but Paxton does offer a bit more versatility than leach, so while they have the same skill set, i guess the versatility MCd likes is what won here.....hence my interpretation of a samll upgrade for MCD...


you know its time for football when we are arguing over LS's.....HAHAH:lol:

[rcsodak]

No he's not above average.

Orton's 2008 rating: 86.8

Brady's ratings: 2001: 86.5

2003: 85.9

That dog wont hunt bud. :rofl:

Yeah Orton had a better qb rating BARELY. Orton's best year led to 8-8 record and while you tout how he as good as Brady was in 2001 and 2003 whose the one with rings? Yep it's that journeyman quarterback Brady. :lol:

This was the best year of Orton's career and yet his best led to an 8-8 record and on playoff appearance. It also the first time he ever had qb rating in the 80s (His career average is 76.9 yeah he's clearly above average :lol:). Brady's clearly inferior qb rating in those two seasons led to how many Championships again? Brady has also never had a qb rating rating below 83.9 since becoming a starter.

A better stat is completion percentage. Since becoming a starter has never had completion percentage below 60%. Orton on the other hand had never cleared 60% until this last season.

Orton has never been at the same level as Brady and more than likely never will. To try and compare the two is foolhardy.

The only thing you just pointed out, is "it must be the system".

[rcsodak]

So if I say his qb rating was slightly better than Brady's was in 2001 and 2003 then I have he's an above average quarterback? What a crock one good year doesn't make him an above average quarterback.

There you go again trying change the subject when you know that what did was step all over yourself. You know that Orton has never been and more likely will never be. First you want to look at the two individually but when that didn't work you come back with a smart mouth comment on how it's lost on my about each quarterback within the context their teams. As you said which is? You can have both way. You made the comparison now that you got your ass handed to you want change the comparisons.

LMAO.

Quit while you're behind, tx.....:lol:

[rcsodak]

paxton is more than just our LS if you pay attention he is in some goalline formations and is on alot of special teams duty...leach didnt do that that he was a LS only.....i would say the move is probally closer to lateral than better but Paxton does offer a bit more versatility than leach, so while they have the same skill set, i guess the versatility MCd likes is what won here.....hence my interpretation of a samll upgrade for MCD...


you know its time for football when we are arguing over LS's.....HAHAH:lol:

In the overall scheme of things, if the Oline is getting bigger, wouldn't making the LS equal in size just make more sense? :confused:

[Lonestar]

Sense has zero to do with a love affair.
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[Lonestar]

Sense has zero to do with a love affair.
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Or for that matter a hate affair. For those that are going to piss and moan about me quoting myslef in mobile mode I unable to edit or delete a post.
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[Slick]

Poor Bruce Davis...getting overshadowed by long snappers. He's doomed.

[rcsodak]

Or for that matter a hate affair. For those that are going to piss and moan about me quoting myslef in mobile mode I unable to edit or delete a post.
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Screw 'em, jr....I LOVE IT!!!! Keep doing it, bud. ;)

[Slick]

Bumping for Bruce because Tempus reminded me we are loaded at OLB.

[TXBRONC]

Bumping for Bruce because Tempus reminded me we are loaded at OLB.

Absolutely. :D

Seriously I dont believe we're loaded at Outside linebacker but I do think atm wide receiver is a weaker link. We have two rookies, two guys whose a very good receiver (Royal and Stokley) but they're not number ones and the rest are journeyman.

[Grover]

Broncos cut Bruce Davis on July 27th and he's now with the 49ers. Why are we bumping this?