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honz
05-17-2010, 04:45 PM
http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2010/05/17/dumervil-broncos-in-contract-talks/?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter&utm_content=Twitter


The Broncos have been in negotiations with Gary Wichard, the agent for Elvis Dumervil, regarding a new long-term contract for the NFL’s reigning sack champion.

“”I feel both parties want to get something done, Dumervil said. “”It’s a work in progress. At the end of the day I’m happy to be a Bronco and I’m happy to be out here with new teammates and get back to playing football.”

With negotiations under way, Dumervil participated in the Broncos’ first day of voluntary offseason training activity (OTA) Monday at the team’s Dove Valley headquarters. Prior to the workout, Dumervil signed an injury protection waiver. Thus if he should get hurt, he could still collect the $3.168 million salary he was tendered in March as a restricted free agent.

If all goes well in negotiations, that $3.168 million could increase nearly 25 times in total contract value, based on the deals other premier pass rushers have received.

“”We’re going to focus on the contract while Elvis and the Broncos focus on 2010,’’ Wichard said. “”He knows he’s going to be playing there in 2010 and he’s there participating and supporting his teammates and organization. We’re hopeful everything will work out very positively in the next several weeks and see if we can get something done.’’

Only two players have more sacks than Dumervil’s 43 since he joined the league four years ago _ DeMarcus Ware (56 1/2) and Jared Allen (52). Ware last year received a $79 million contract with $40 million guaranteed; two years ago, Allen got a $72.26 million deal with $31 million guaranteed.

Other pass rushers who recently received rich contracts despite falling short of matching Dumervil’s sack production are Julius Peppers ($84 million contract; $42 million guaranteed) and Terrell Suggs ($62.5 million deal; $38 million guaranteed).

It’s been seven years since the Broncos committed such big money to one player. They did make Champ Bailey the leagues’ highest-paid defensive player with a seven-year, $63 million contract that included $23 million in guarantees. Seven years later, Bailey is in the final year of that deal and is scheduled to draw the final $13 million of that $63 million deal.

The NFL’s four highest-paid positions are all related to the passing game _ quarterback, pass rusher, cornerback and left tackle.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-17-2010, 04:46 PM
Thanks :salute: Great news

honz
05-17-2010, 04:49 PM
Just saw that Thnikka posted a similar article in the other Doom thread, but this is pretty big news so it may deserve it's own thread so people see it. I hope they get something done, but don't break the bank.

Lonestar
05-17-2010, 04:54 PM
Let's hope that we DO not spend that kind of money on a one trick pony UNTIL he ups his game.

25 times the 3.168 million is NUTS if that is what he feels his high side is.

While a nice guy NO ONE is worth that kind of guaranteed money.
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arapaho2
05-17-2010, 05:06 PM
Let's hope that we DO not spend that kind of money on a one trick pony UNTIL he ups his game.

25 times the 3.168 million is NUTS if that is what he feels his high side is.

While a nice guy NO ONE is worth that kind of guaranteed money.
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a pass rushing phenom is...by any teams books

dogfish
05-17-2010, 05:09 PM
get 'er done!


i hope they pay him a ton, just to spite the naysayers. . . .


:salute:

TXBRONC
05-17-2010, 06:39 PM
get 'er done!


i hope they pay him a ton, just to spite the naysayers. . . .


:salute:

He'll deserve every cent he gets. :beer:

Foochacho
05-17-2010, 10:32 PM
Jr it isn't your money you can relax.

Tned
05-17-2010, 10:43 PM
Glad to see the guys in the front office realize they need to sign him to a new contract sooner rather than later, and that it can't be come Maddenesque, $3.5 million guaranteed and $60 million in run stopping and pass coverage stat-based incentives.

Need to get this guy signed to a long term contract before the animosity makes it impossible to do so.

TXBRONC
05-17-2010, 11:09 PM
Glad to see the guys in the front office realize they need to sign him to a new contract sooner rather than later, and that it can't be come Maddenesque, $3.5 million guaranteed and $60 million in run stopping and pass coverage stat-based incentives.

Need to get this guy signed to a long term contract before the animosity makes it impossible to do so.

If front office did something like the Broncos would quickly become the kind of team that talented free agents would stay away from and where any draft talent wouldn't want to stay. Contract negotiations are not a one sided affair.

Lonestar
05-18-2010, 02:36 AM
Jr it isn't your money you can relax.

Your correct it is not but every cent they commit to a one trick pony means there is less to spend in other areas. just because there is NO cap this year does not mean there will not be next year. and most likely there will be caps forever once they get a new CBA in place.

I alos believe there will be a lot LESS guaranteed money handed out.

SO why the need to give him the moon this year. i do not get why everyone is so excited about a OLB that can't play the position unless he has his hand in the dirt Which keys the QB to look his way because his man is going to be wide open.

The kid all but disappeared the last 6 games of the year. Does anyone think it may have to do with the OC now have a book on him?

Yep lets give him the key to the mint.

Northman
05-18-2010, 10:35 AM
Thank god, the kid deserves a better contract. He's earned it.

Northman
05-18-2010, 10:39 AM
Your correct it is not but every cent they commit to a one trick pony means there is less to spend in other areas. just because there is NO cap this year does not mean there will not be next year. and most likely there will be caps forever once they get a new CBA in place.

I alos believe there will be a lot LESS guaranteed money handed out.

SO why the need to give him the moon this year. i do not get why everyone is so excited about a OLB that can't play the position unless he has his hand in the dirt Which keys the QB to look his way because his man is going to be wide open.

The kid all but disappeared the last 6 games of the year. Does anyone think it may have to do with the OC now have a book on him?

Yep lets give him the key to the mint.


Your a ******* riot. The entire defense disappeared down the stretch with NO HELP FROM THE ******* OFFENSE. Yea, your boy McDung who calls the plays, where the **** was he? Oh thats right, dont question the HC because he is awesome even at mediocrity. :lol:

T.K.O.
05-18-2010, 10:43 AM
Need to get this guy signed to a long term contract before the animosity makes it impossible to do so.

animosity ? i have'nt seen any signs of animosity.
he signed a waiver so he can be with his team,both sides are saying positive things and all indicators are pointing at a deal getting done soon.
why would you think there is growing animosity ?:confused:

Northman
05-18-2010, 10:49 AM
animosity ? i have'nt seen any signs of animosity.
he signed a waiver so he can be with his team,both sides are saying positive things and all indicators are pointing at a deal getting done soon.
why would you think there is growing animosity ?:confused:

He's talking longterm. This is a good step forward for the Bronco brass but had they waited another year i think there could of been some problems. I was on board with the brass about not shoveling out money for Marshall because of the other issues. But Doom deserves whatever contract they agree too because he has done all the right things and doesnt have NEARLY the type of talent around him as guys like Ware, etc do. If there's one player that i wouldnt mind overpaying for that would be Doom. If he can get 17 sacks on this defense with the inconsistency of scheme, coaches, players, whatever than just imagine what he could do with a steady lineup of all of the above? Kid is great, time to reward him for it.

T.K.O.
05-18-2010, 11:09 AM
i heard somewhere that doom broke ware or freeneys sack record in college.
found it here's a good example that doom is not a product of nolan or any particular coaches scheme,
he's been layin' it down for a while !:elefant:

The rest of the NCAA’s all-time sack leaders are listed here.

Terrell Suggs, Arizona State (2000-02): 44 career sacks
Jason Babin, Western Michigan (2000-03): 38
David Pollack, Georgia (2001-04): 36
Shaun Phillips, Purdue (2000-03): 33.5
Elvis Dumervil, Louisville (2002-05): 32.0
Dwight Freeney, Syracuse (2000-01): 30.5
Dave Ball, UCLA (2000-03): 30.5
Lawrence Jackson, Southern California (2004-07): 30.5
Matt Roth, Iowa (2001-04): 30.0
Jorge Cordova, Nevada (2000-03): 29.0
Bo Schobel, TCU (2000-03): 29.0
Kenechi Udeze, USC (2001-03): 28.0
Johnathan Goddard, Marshall (2001-04): 27.5
Calvin Pace, Wake Forest (2000-02): 27.0
Antwan Peek, Cincinnati (2000-02): 27.0

TXBRONC
05-18-2010, 11:14 AM
Your a ******* riot. The entire defense disappeared down the stretch with NO HELP FROM THE ******* OFFENSE. Yea, your boy McDung who calls the plays, where the **** was he? Oh thats right, dont question the HC because he is awesome even at mediocrity. :lol:

Dumervil had 14 total tackles, 5 sacks (two of which came against the Eagles a playoff bound team), and 2 forced fumbles.

Maybe if would had better defensive lineman Dumervil's numbers would have been even better. Anyway imho those numbers don't support him just disappearing.

Northman
05-18-2010, 11:16 AM
Dumervil had 14 total tackles, 5 sacks (two of which came against the Eagles a playoff bound team), and 2 forced fumbles.

Maybe if would had better defensive lineman Dumervil's numbers would have been even better. Anyway imho those numbers don't support him just disappearing.

Exactly. If he can do that much damage with all the chaos surrounding him just imagine what the kid can do with an actual team around him. But, its better to insult the kid by calling him a one trick pony because he does all the right things by standing by the team and not bitching about the problems with schemes and such. :rolleyes:

TXBRONC
05-18-2010, 11:20 AM
Exactly. If he can do that much damage with all the chaos surrounding him just imagine what the kid can do with an actual team around him. But, its better to insult the kid by calling him a one trick pony because he does all the right things by standing by the team and not bitching about the problems with schemes and such. :rolleyes:

I thought this is what his critics wanted? Do your job and don't complain because we want team first players.

Lonestar
05-18-2010, 11:20 AM
Your a ******* riot. The entire defense disappeared down the stretch with NO HELP FROM THE ******* OFFENSE. Yea, your boy McDung who calls the plays, where the **** was he? Oh thats right, dont question the HC because he is awesome even at mediocrity. :lol:

Ok so because the offense stunk it up, that was the reason doom disappeared in those latest 6 games or was ti because the OC figured out how to read his tells.

Talk about bitter.

Northman
05-18-2010, 11:21 AM
Ok so because the offense stunk it up, that was the reason doom disappeared in those latest 6 games or was ti because the OC figured out how to read his tells.

Talk about bitter.


So your trying to sell me that Doom was the only one to disappear on the defense last year. Yea, um ok slick.

Lonestar
05-18-2010, 11:33 AM
So your trying to sell me that Doom was the only one to disappear on the defense last year. Yea, um ok slick.

I stand corrected he did indeed have 5 sacks in those last 6 games, but his run defense and drop back pass protection were in negative numbers in those games over all.

So to me that spells one trick pony, all rush and NO other game. There is NO other way to see it.

Look if Josh and Xman want to give him a huge contract there is nothing i can do to stop them.

But I'd rather spend BIG money on a NT, than someone that is limited at his position of OLB .

Because rushing the QB is only good when they are trying to pass the ball, if they run the ball down our throats he is as worthless as teats on a boar.

Northman
05-18-2010, 11:42 AM
I stand corrected he did indeed have 5 sacks in those last 6 games, but his run defense and drop back pass protection were in negative numbers in those games over all.

So to me that spells one trick pony, all rush and NO other game. There is NO other way to see it.

Look if Josh and Xman want to give him a huge contract there is nothing i can do to stop them.

But I'd rather spend BIG money on a NT, than someone that is limited at his position of OLB .

Because rushing the QB is only good when they are trying to pass the ball, if they run the ball down our throats he is as worthless as teats on a boar.

If it was up to Doom to be the only one to stop the run last year i would agree. But they ALL sucked down the stretch. Every great defender has something special they do. No one looks at Freeney or Ware as great run stoppers. They look at them as pass specialist. Add in the fact that both have better surrounding cast members, more chemistry with said players, been working in the right scheme for longer and i would say Doom did a pretty great job considering he has none of those. You want to single out one guy on a defense that blew it as a team down the stretch knock yourself out. But he deserves more money and frankly i dont care how much they pay him. As they say, the risk is WELL worth it given by what ive seen so far. Maybe when the Broncos decide to stick with its other players and coaches Doom can improve in the other areas as well. Since no other player has even stepped up in that dept. im all for the kid getting paid. If its going to be a thorn in your side if we do too ******* bad. Get over it.

honz
05-18-2010, 11:46 AM
http://www.ltl.appstate.edu/litcirunits_Fall00/medieval/group1/whipboy.jpg

Lonestar
05-18-2010, 11:57 AM
guess we will all have to agree to disagree .

Frenney is not a OLB he is a DE .

Frankly, I couldn't care less about how he plays or how much he makes as he has been brought in in a totally different scheme to do nothing but rush the passer.

Doom is a OLB that in normal cases has more responsibilities than just getting to the QB.

As for Ware ye is also surrounded by quality players and BTW can indeed drop back and cover the run.





Snaps ovrall Run Def. Pass Rush Pass Cov. #Pen QB Sk QB Ht QB Pr BP Tks Ass MT Stops
880 4.2 -12.1 21.2 0.1 -5.0 5-1 17 7 31 2 23 6 0 31
1,093 36.8 9.4 27.8 4.1 -4.5 5-1 15 19 61 1 39 13 3 40



Doom verse Ware

If we are going to break the bank on someone get a real OLB. Like Ware.

Or better yet build in incentives to allow him to become a Ware type OLB and still get payed.

arapaho2
05-18-2010, 12:00 PM
I stand corrected he did indeed have 5 sacks in those last 6 games, but his run defense and drop back pass protection were in negative numbers in those games over all.

So to me that spells one trick pony, all rush and NO other game. There is NO other way to see it.

Look if Josh and Xman want to give him a huge contract there is nothing i can do to stop them.

But I'd rather spend BIG money on a NT, than someone that is limited at his position of OLB .

Because rushing the QB is only good when they are trying to pass the ball, if they run the ball down our throats he is as worthless as teats on a boar.


what nose tackle would you spend money on??... we have one on the roster worth 40 mill?...

or are you saying we chouldnt spend money on the best defensive player we have and one of the premier pass rushers in the game...so that we can one day ...in the future...pay a nose tackel mega bucks

sounds like another great mcd plan to me:rolleyes:

you could also say why run if the broncos cant put pressure on the qb and so you can pass at ease

as it was the defense improved every where last year...with doom applying better pressure we got more sacks....more ints...more forced fumbles...was only -1 on the tds allowed vrs ints taken (18 tds vrs 17 ints)...thats impressive

it wasnt all doom...but with out the pressure and double teams he forced he made it possible


take it both ways...if a offense cant get the running game going...but the qb can stand in the pocket all day...they will eat you up

arapaho2
05-18-2010, 12:12 PM
guess we will all have to agree to disagree .

Frenney is not a OLB he is a DE .

Frankly, I couldn't care less about how he plays or how much he makes as he has been brought in in a totally different scheme to do nothing but rush the passer.

Doom is a OLB that in normal cases has more responsibilities than just getting to the QB.

As for Ware ye is also surrounded by quality players and BTW can indeed drop back and cover the run.





Snaps ovrall Run Def. Pass Rush Pass Cov. #Pen QB Sk QB Ht QB Pr BP Tks Ass MT Stops
880 4.2 -12.1 21.2 0.1 -5.0 5-1 17 7 31 2 23 6 0 31
1,093 36.8 9.4 27.8 4.1 -4.5 5-1 15 19 61 1 39 13 3 40



Doom verse Ware

If we are going to break the bank on someone get a real OLB. Like Ware.

Or better yet build in incentives to allow him to become a Ware type OLB and still get payed.


so lets follow jrs plan of not paying our best , and one of the leagues best pass rushers

because in his first year ever as a 3-4 olb...he didnt get as many tackles or pressures or pass defenses as a guy who has been playing it for 5 full seasons, and has a better defensive line supporting him :coffee:

also ware had only 11 sacks last season not 15

GEM
05-18-2010, 12:44 PM
Let's hope that we DO not spend that kind of money on a one trick pony UNTIL he ups his game.

25 times the 3.168 million is NUTS if that is what he feels his high side is.

While a nice guy NO ONE is worth that kind of guaranteed money.
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And let him go like all the other Defensive guys? While you might not like the amount of money, it's common for these guys. How about we don't commit money to anyone, just bring in super guys to play on the cheap and hope and pray one day to make the playoffs...how has that worked out for us so far?

I don't want some scrub taking Doom's place because we were too cheap to pay the guy the norm that has already been precedented by other teams in the league. We didn't make the rules, we just play by them. Pay the guy or watch him leave and wait another how many years for another one.

Name the last Bronco that was even close to Doom on the line or LB... Trevor Pryce....how long ago did he go away? Bert Berry? Next year he went to the Pro Bowl with AZ. Mark my words, Doom leaves and he will make us regret it. He's young, he got a LB coach leading him and he's already nailed what so many can't. He can learn the run, he can learn the drop back, but what you can't teach is creating sacks. You lose Doom and you have lost at least 1/3rd of Denver's sacks the last 2 years. This year, something like 17 or 18 out of 30 something.

GEM
05-18-2010, 01:04 PM
Ok so because the offense stunk it up, that was the reason doom disappeared in those latest 6 games or was ti because the OC figured out how to read his tells.

Talk about bitter.

When did he disappear? He was actually a shining spot on a complete failure of a team the last 6 games. At least if you're going to comment, come correct. The last thing Doom did was disappear. Maybe you're talking about Ayers?

TXBRONC
05-18-2010, 01:05 PM
And let him go like all the other Defensive guys? While you might not like the amount of money, it's common for these guys. How about we don't commit money to anyone, just bring in super guys to play on the cheap and hope and pray one day to make the playoffs...how has that worked out for us so far?

I don't want some scrub taking Doom's place because we were too cheap to pay the guy the norm that has already been precedented by other teams in the league. We didn't make the rules, we just play by them. Pay the guy or watch him leave and wait another how many years for another one.

Name the last Bronco that was even close to Doom on the line or LB... Trevor Pryce....how long ago did he go away? Bert Berry? Next year he went to the Pro Bowl with AZ. Mark my words, Doom leaves and he will make us regret it. He's young, he got a LB coach leading him and he's already nailed what so many can't. He can learn the run, he can learn the drop back, but what you can't teach is creating sacks. You lose Doom and you have lost at least 1/3rd of Denver's sacks the last 2 years. This year, something like 17 or 18 out of 30 something.

How do we know that Dumervil wasn't doing exactly what he was suppose to do? For a guy that has never played the position before it seems to me that he had a very good year. As I said earlier maybe if they put a better supporting cast around him on the line maybe his production will go up.

GEM
05-18-2010, 01:07 PM
I stand corrected he did indeed have 5 sacks in those last 6 games, but his run defense and drop back pass protection were in negative numbers in those games over all.

So to me that spells one trick pony, all rush and NO other game. There is NO other way to see it.

Look if Josh and Xman want to give him a huge contract there is nothing i can do to stop them.

But I'd rather spend BIG money on a NT, than someone that is limited at his position of OLB .

Because rushing the QB is only good when they are trying to pass the ball, if they run the ball down our throats he is as worthless as teats on a boar.

If all you get out of the guy is that he leads the league in sacks....I'll take it. He's one guy....you can't not pay him because of the failure of so many others. If I remember correctly they only put him in on passing downs, so the run eating us alive isn't on him. Now if they want to build a front 7 around him, that's cool, but you don't get rid of your best talent up front for the simple fact that he can't make up for the rest of your defenses deficiencies.

GEM
05-18-2010, 01:09 PM
How do we know that Dumervil wasn't doing exactly what he was suppose to do? For guy that has never played the position before it seems to me that he had a very good year. As I said earlier maybe if they put a better supporting cast around him on the line maybe his production will go up.

Exactly....Bowlen is going to have to pony up the money if he wants talent. Talent isn't cheap and it isn't found in scrub players that have played on 5 other teams before ours.

TXBRONC
05-18-2010, 01:19 PM
Exactly....Bowlen is going to have to pony up the money if he wants talent. Talent isn't cheap and it isn't found in scrub players that have played on 5 other teams before ours.

I remember Denver going to four Super Bowls where the overall talent was inferior and the ended up getting heads handed to them.

Lonestar
05-18-2010, 02:03 PM
If all you get out of the guy is that he leads the league in sacks....I'll take it. He's one guy....you can't not pay him because of the failure of so many others. If I remember correctly they only put him in on passing downs, so the run eating us alive isn't on him. Now if they want to build a front 7 around him, that's cool, but you don't get rid of your best talent up front for the simple fact that he can't make up for the rest of your defenses deficiencies.

Actually he was in on abiut 85% of the snaps over the year. And 83% of them in the last six games when the D gave up bunches of yards to the run game.

As for building the rest of the D around him.
I can live with that BUT not if he is making Ware type money without giving Ware performances.

I'm all for giving him a good contract with incentives to bring him to Ware levels on pay and results.

Still think the NT and DE's should be the base we build on with LB's playing the lesser role. And pay them accordnigly.
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GEM
05-18-2010, 02:20 PM
Actually he was in on abiut 85% of the snaps over the year. And 83% of them in the last six games when the D gave up bunches of yards to the run game.

As for building the rest of the D around him.
I can live with that BUT not if he is making Ware type money without giving Ware performances.

I'm all for giving him a good contract with incentives to bring him to Ware levels on pay and results.

Still think the NT and DE's should be the base we build on with LB's playing the lesser role. And pay them accordnigly.
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NT's don't come easy. Do you know how coveted a good NT is in this league? Seriously.

You don't find him worth the money. I do.

Difference in opinions, I guess.

You brought up Jared Allen....who plays around him? Not the schmucks we've had on Defense since Elvis got here. How about Ware...again not the schmucks we've had on defense since Elvis got here. Those around you make you better or worse. Unfortunately, Elvis has played on some terrible, absolutely horrendous defenses since being drafted and still managed to shine. Not just shine, but lead the league. If that's not worth money to you, find yourself a scrub that's worth league minimum and set high expectations on him. Then you won't be disappointed when he falls flat on his face and the Broncos are the worse for it.

Tempus Fugit
05-18-2010, 02:51 PM
NT's don't come easy. Do you know how coveted a good NT is in this league? Seriously.

You don't find him worth the money. I do.

Difference in opinions, I guess.

You brought up Jared Allen....who plays around him? Not the schmucks we've had on Defense since Elvis got here. How about Ware...again not the schmucks we've had on defense since Elvis got here. Those around you make you better or worse. Unfortunately, Elvis has played on some terrible, absolutely horrendous defenses since being drafted and still managed to shine. Not just shine, but lead the league. If that's not worth money to you, find yourself a scrub that's worth league minimum and set high expectations on him. Then you won't be disappointed when he falls flat on his face and the Broncos are the worse for it.

Jared Allen was surrounded by schmucks when he was playing in Kansas City.

BigBroncLove
05-18-2010, 03:18 PM
If we are going to break the bank on someone get a real OLB. Like Ware.

Or better yet build in incentives to allow him to become a Ware type OLB and still get payed.

I'm sorry but I have to ask this because I see comments like this a lot. Where exactly is this mythical individual that were supposed to pay Ware money and not Doom? I continually see people say pay Ware money to a Ware type of player, but does anyone see a new Demarcus Ware anywhere? I don't. How often does a guy like Ware come along? I don't feel like waiting around another decade for a guy like Ware to come around to pay him that money. You know what I do see though? I see a great player in Dumervil not getting paid what he should be.

Doom has earned his contract. Get him payed, get him locked in, without every other team driving the price up with other offers on the FA market. Two years from now the money Doom could be signed to this year will seem like chicken feed. Get it done now while we have the chance (even with a downturn in the CBA profit sharing percentage with player in negotiations overall market increase will increase contract value regardless).

One year (as others have said). One measly tiny year under a hurricane of changes in a new system. I don't expect a guy who has had one hand on the ground his entire life to suddenly bloom into an all out NFL league leading OLB in one season and i don't think its fair to expect that either. Doom has exceeded everybody's expectation on this team and across the league since day one in the NFL. I have no doubt he will continue to exceed those expectations. I'd rather see him do that in blue and orange with his fair share of green stuffed in his pockets then in some other teams colors, just swimming in a much larger pile of money because someone in this league will give him the cash he deserves.

GEM
05-18-2010, 03:22 PM
Jared Allen was surrounded by schmucks when he was playing in Kansas City.

Compare:

Doom
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1296/doomh.jpg

Allen
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1691/allenr.jpg

Take a look at the years previous to last for Doom. What does that tell you...he was being used incorrectly. He has brought up his tackles. JR will love that, because I think it's a knock on Shanahan and his merry maids (DC's) :lol:

Allen has been going down in what he does, but that factors in that he is on a better defense with stronger players around him. Elvis matched him or beat him in every category but Fcd Fumbles this past season.

So my point....he's young, he's accelerated since being moved to the new position and he's proven himself by work ethic and team first to deserve to be there with the big guys.

Besides the fact that we haven't had a pass rusher like this since who knows when and we can't keep shipping off talent and expect to be any good. You can understand guys who can't buy in or whose attitudes are detrimental to the locker room, but you can't with a guy who has completely bought in, traded positions and excelled and who puts the locker room first.

Tempus Fugit
05-18-2010, 03:41 PM
Compare:

Doom
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1296/doomh.jpg

Allen
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1691/allenr.jpg

Ok, I was just noting the Allen thing as opposed to getting into this, but since you brought this stuff up:


Take a look at the years previous to last for Doom. What does that tell you...he was being used incorrectly. He has brought up his tackles. JR will love that, because I think it's a knock on Shanahan and his merry maids (DC's) :lol:

It tells me that the Broncos defensive ends weren't responsible for big tackle numbers, and that Dumervil is being asked to tackle more as an OLB. That's consistent with the difference between a 1-gap 4-3 and a 2-gap 3-4, even when the DC (Nolan) wasn't following it to the letter.


CAllen has been going down in what he does, but that factors in that he is on a better defense with stronger players around him. Elvis matched him or beat him in every category but Fcd Fumbles this past season.

Allen's sack numbers are up over the past 3 years, while his tackle numbers are down mostly in the past 2 seasons. That's consistent with still improving while in Kansas City, and then being traded to a team with great run stoppers at DT and being able to pay the run a little bit less attention. I don't see that as "going down in what he does", but we're probably just haggling over pennies at that point, if you know what I mean.


So my point....he's young, he's accelerated since being moved to the new position and he's proven himself by work ethic and team first to deserve to be there with the big guys.

I think he's translated his 'old' skills to a new position, which is all you can really ask in the first year of the transition. He's still a major liability against the run and in coverage. Doubtless, the hope is that he'll improve in those areas now that he's had a year in the 3-4 alignment.


Besides the fact that we haven't had a pass rusher like this since who knows when and we can't keep shipping off talent and expect to be any good. You can understand guys who can't buy in or whose attitudes are detrimental to the locker room, but you can't with a guy who has completely bought in, traded positions and excelled and who puts the locker room first.

I don't really have a dog in this hunt, since no numbers have been put out publicly. If Dumervil looks for Ware money, he'll be playing on his tender this year and playing elsewhere by 2011. If he looks for low money, taking into account the fact that the team can stick him with the tender amount, he'll be signed quicky. If he looks for something in between, that'll be where the give and take comes in.

Northman
05-18-2010, 03:44 PM
Compare:

Doom
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1296/doomh.jpg

Allen
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1691/allenr.jpg

Take a look at the years previous to last for Doom. What does that tell you...he was being used incorrectly. He has brought up his tackles. JR will love that, because I think it's a knock on Shanahan and his merry maids (DC's) :lol:

Allen has been going down in what he does, but that factors in that he is on a better defense with stronger players around him. Elvis matched him or beat him in every category but Fcd Fumbles this past season.

So my point....he's young, he's accelerated since being moved to the new position and he's proven himself by work ethic and team first to deserve to be there with the big guys.

Besides the fact that we haven't had a pass rusher like this since who knows when and we can't keep shipping off talent and expect to be any good. You can understand guys who can't buy in or whose attitudes are detrimental to the locker room, but you can't with a guy who has completely bought in, traded positions and excelled and who puts the locker room first.


All that and still was in the same range as Allen during his time with KC. :lol:

turftoad
05-18-2010, 03:57 PM
Let's hope that we DO not spend that kind of money on a one trick pony UNTIL he ups his game.

25 times the 3.168 million is NUTS if that is what he feels his high side is.

While a nice guy NO ONE is worth that kind of guaranteed money.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Call him what you will.

One thing you CAN him is a playmaking outside pass rusher. Yep, PLAYMAKING!
How many of those do we have?

Playmakers make big cake, just the way it is. If he's not sacking the QB he's putting pressure on the QB. Opposing ofenses have to account for him. Thats a huge benifit to us.
Without Doom, we have no pass rush. Then what, we'd all be bitching about a lack of pressure on the oppoing QB.
Sometimes you have to pay a playmaker. Talk about a Ware type player all you want or a stud DT all you want.
Where you gonna get one? We already have Doom, he deserves a raise, period. Hell, we haven't paid anyone else and most of the playmakers are gone.

TXBRONC
05-18-2010, 04:07 PM
Call him what you will.

One thing you CAN him is a playmaking outside pass rusher. Yep, PLAYMAKING!
How many of those do we have?

Playmakers make big cake, just the way it is. If he's not sacking the QB he's putting pressure on the QB. Opposing ofenses have to account for him. Thats a huge benifit to us.
Without Doom, we have no pass rush. Then what, we'd all be bitching about a lack of pressure on the oppoing QB.
Sometimes you have to pay a playmaker. Talk about a Ware type player all you want or a stud DT all you want.
Where you gonna get one? We already have Doom, he deserves a raise, period. Hell, we haven't paid anyone else and most of the playmakers are gone.

Does Dumervil moonlight as a pastry chief? :lol: :vroam:

Getting back to your real point. For years there have been complaints about how we don't get pressure on the quarterback. Now that we have one it's time to kicking him to curb? To me that would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Lonestar
05-18-2010, 04:26 PM
NT's don't come easy. Do you know how coveted a good NT is in this league? Seriously.

You don't find him worth the money. I do.

Difference in opinions, I guess.

You brought up Jared Allen....who plays around him? Not the schmucks we've had on Defense since Elvis got here. How about Ware...again not the schmucks we've had on defense since Elvis got here. Those around you make you better or worse. Unfortunately, Elvis has played on some terrible, absolutely horrendous defenses since being drafted and still managed to shine. Not just shine, but lead the league. If that's not worth money to you, find yourself a scrub that's worth league minimum and set high expectations on him. Then you won't be disappointed when he falls flat on his face and the Broncos are the worse for it.


Actually in previous conversation Allen and peppers were brought up as an example as a world class sacker and Doom should be given the same type money.

I refuted that as bunk BECAUSE they played in different schemes and Different positions than our Doom as an OLB at that point we stated to compare him with other OLB's.

So when compared to other OLBS as noted in the above box he fails at all categories Other than sacks were he was JUST two ahead of Ware at 15. who was heads above him in tackles and assisted tackles.

What will make me un happy is they give him a ton of guaranteed money and he does not improve in the rest of his game.

For someone that played some 85% of the snaps last year he needs to be more than a sacker.

Northman
05-18-2010, 04:27 PM
Does Dumervil moonlight as a pastry chief? :lol: :vroam:

Getting back to your real point. For years there have been complaints about how we don't get pressure on the quarterback. Now that we have one it's time to kicking him to curb? To me that would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

The thing that REALLY cracks me up is how so many jump on the tebow bandwagon because the kid supposedly fought against the odds by changing his throwing style, being a christian, etc, blah blah blah and is praised and called a franchise QB before he even takes a snap at the pro level. Yet, here we have a guy who was undersized, fought to win a position on this team to begin with and has played on par with a guy like Jared Allen on a piss poor defense with no chemistry at the coaching position yet we want to toss him away because he isnt Lawarence Taylor incarnate. So what, the guy works his ass off, doesnt bitch, doesnt get into off the field issues, has done everything that has been asked of him and has given 110% along the way. You dont treat those kinds of players like garbage and you pay them accordingly.

Lonestar
05-18-2010, 04:31 PM
I'm sorry but I have to ask this because I see comments like this a lot. Where exactly is this mythical individual that were supposed to pay Ware money and not Doom? I continually see people say pay Ware money to a Ware type of player, but does anyone see a new Demarcus Ware anywhere? I don't. How often does a guy like Ware come along? I don't feel like waiting around another decade for a guy like Ware to come around to pay him that money. You know what I do see though? I see a great player in Dumervil not getting paid what he should be.

Doom has earned his contract. Get him payed, get him locked in, without every other team driving the price up with other offers on the FA market. Two years from now the money Doom could be signed to this year will seem like chicken feed. Get it done now while we have the chance (even with a downturn in the CBA profit sharing percentage with player in negotiations overall market increase will increase contract value regardless).

One year (as others have said). One measly tiny year under a hurricane of changes in a new system. I don't expect a guy who has had one hand on the ground his entire life to suddenly bloom into an all out NFL league leading OLB in one season and i don't think its fair to expect that either. Doom has exceeded everybody's expectation on this team and across the league since day one in the NFL. I have no doubt he will continue to exceed those expectations. I'd rather see him do that in blue and orange with his fair share of green stuffed in his pockets then in some other teams colors, just swimming in a much larger pile of money because someone in this league will give him the cash he deserves.



I did not say there was another ware out there on the horizon What I said was before we pay him Ware money he needs to earn it.

Give him a fair contract that gives him incentives to work on more than hand on the ground pass rush .. It was quoted that all of his sack were from that start.

The OC and QB's are not going to take long IF they have not already to figure out they can run at him like we did against freeny or pass to the guy that he is not covering. Because as of right now he sucks at BOTH of those OLB duties.

BigBroncLove
05-18-2010, 04:57 PM
I did not say there was another ware out there on the horizon What I said was before we pay him Ware money he needs to earn it.

Give him a fair contract that gives him incentives to work on more than hand on the ground pass rush .. It was quoted that all of his sack were from that start.

The OC and QB's are not going to take long IF they have not already to figure out they can run at him like we did against freeny or pass to the guy that he is not covering. Because as of right now he sucks at BOTH of those OLB duties.

All of that run stopping stuff isn't on Doom alone. Doom played both sides and as far as 3-4 is concerned a great deal of run stopping comes from your DE's and NT properly reading their two gap assignments and holding OL at the LOS. The huge drop off in both sacks, and increase in yards run by opposing offenses tended to coincide with Fields continual degradation of his ability to pull two defenders. And it's not as if Kenny Peterson or even McBean inspire me as great defenders infront of him. Holliday? come on.... After all for any part of the 3-4 to work the NT has to draw two OL or create pressure in the backfield because they only drew one. I would definitely encourage everybody to see just how many double team Fields drew in the last 6 games. He was getting pushed around... by one guy and that right off the bat breaks down the whole 3-4 system.

That doesn't mean its all on fields. I saw Doom miss some tackles last year when it came to the run, but run D in the 3-4 system is a team issue and Dooms apparent lack of ability in that area is not on him alone. If I am not mistaken those stats you posted on Run D are indictive of run plays in specific area of the field and reflect upon everyone that was near that which is more than just Doom.

As for pass coverage. Again, were talking a career DE turned OLB. One year to suddenly become a great pass covering OLB. It takes more time, enough said.

You know, I've seen the Broncos spend a lot of money on guys with more questions about their play, and I've seen even more money wasted on guys who didn't. Travis Henry anyone? How about Dre Bly? we can go down a laundry list of guys. As far as overspending on players is concerned I'd rather do it on a guy like Dumervil then half the other jokes in the league. Also, again a big contract this year won't be a big contract a few years down the road. That and everyone talks about big money on WAre, but he averages about 10 mil a year and the larger majority of big LB signing since last offseason have all averaged around 10 mil a year just with different contract lengths. Sure I'd prefer to see Doom in a nice average sized contract but I think its foolish to write off todays playmaker for a few extra million waiting to be spent on guys like Travis Henry and put all your stock in a player the Broncos don't have at OLB right now and at this point doesn't exist in the league. Doom seem level headed though and I don't think hes going to expect a record setting contract, but he deserves far mroe than I believe your giving him credit for.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-18-2010, 05:05 PM
It was just stated on FM104.3, that all things point to a "long term" contract for Elvis

T.K.O.
05-18-2010, 05:07 PM
well said ^

arapaho2
05-18-2010, 05:21 PM
Call him what you will.

One thing you CAN him is a playmaking outside pass rusher. Yep, PLAYMAKING!
How many of those do we have?

Playmakers make big cake, just the way it is. If he's not sacking the QB he's putting pressure on the QB. Opposing ofenses have to account for him. Thats a huge benifit to us.
Without Doom, we have no pass rush. Then what, we'd all be bitching about a lack of pressure on the oppoing QB.
Sometimes you have to pay a playmaker. Talk about a Ware type player all you want or a stud DT all you want.
Where you gonna get one? We already have Doom, he deserves a raise, period. Hell, we haven't paid anyone else and most of the playmakers are gone.


jr follows the mcd belief that playmaking ability and talent is overrated...as long as your a good ol boy with a bubbly attitude you'll be fine and the team will be better

GEM
05-18-2010, 05:22 PM
jr follows the mcd belief that playmaking ability and talent is overrated...as long as your a good ol boy with a bubbly attitude you'll be fine and the team will be better

That argument doesn't fit then.... Elvis is a good ole boy with a bubbly attitude.

arapaho2
05-18-2010, 05:23 PM
That argument doesn't fit then.... Elvis is a good ole boy with a bubbly attitude.


but he's got talent and playmaking ability...and i guess that cancels out the goodness

T.K.O.
05-18-2010, 05:28 PM
so the news that the FO is in contract talks and all signs point towards a deal getting done and doom's own admission that "he will be a bronco in 2010" somehow adds up to mcD trying to get rid of him ?

Lonestar
05-18-2010, 05:30 PM
That argument doesn't fit then.... Elvis is a good ole boy with a bubbly attitude.


I believe you have to have talent that is not saying you have to be a top 5 at your position, but IF you come in with desire to learn and get better, then you will.

IF you have more incentive to do so monetarily it happens with consistetncy

I recall MANY players resigned or brought in as UFA that once they got their FAT contracts they only perfumed when the staff of other players got after them.

DO I think that Doom is a born again Price , no BUT why take the chance build in incentives to keep him at his game.

I'm not expecting Doom to be an all around OLB in one year.

But I have to see that he can rush the QB from an upright stance which he was not able to do last year.

If he can't then he will be read by QB's as to where/when he is coming and where to throw to or run the ball when he is.

but then that is just me expecting more than mistakes for my money.

Ziggy
05-18-2010, 05:57 PM
Doom is going to have more help in front of him. Peterson was horrible last season. McBean was probably the most consistant Dlineman when he was healthy. Fields wore down and was constantly pushed around, and the Broncos had no run D over the 2nd half. Insert Jamal Williams, Justin Bannan, a healthy McBean, Jarvis Green, and the run D should be instantly improved. Forcing teams to throw will be a big advantage for this defense and allow Wink to be creative with the blitz packages.

What does all this add up to? Making Doom's job easier. He's a pure pass rusher. Like Charles Haley he isn't great against the run by any means, but if you can make up for that on the Dline, Doom can be disruptive in every game. He led the NFL in sacks with no line to support him last season. Give the man a Dline that can hold thier own in front of him, and he'll be in the top 3 in sacks every year.

Elite pass rushers are not a dime a dozen. The Broncos haven't had a consistant one since Simon Fletcher. Add in the fact that Doom is first class, team first, and clean as a whistle on and off the field. He epitomizes what McD wants in a player. McD has sent the message that if you don't buy into the team and work hard, your out of here. It's time to send the message that if you do, you'll be rewarded for it. Doom has the talent and the attitude. He makes this defense much better overall by being on the field. It's time to pay the man.

arapaho2
05-18-2010, 06:11 PM
I believe you have to have talent that is not saying you have to be a top 5 at your position, but IF you come in with desire to learn and get better, then you will.

IF you have more incentive to do so monetarily it happens with consistetncy

I recall MANY players resigned or brought in as UFA that once they got their FAT contracts they only perfumed when the staff of other players got after them.

DO I think that Doom is a born again Price , no BUT why take the chance build in incentives to keep him at his game.

I'm not expecting Doom to be an all around OLB in one year.

But I have to see that he can rush the QB from an upright stance which he was not able to do last year.

If he can't then he will be read by QB's as to where/when he is coming and where to throw to or run the ball when he is.

but then that is just me expecting more than mistakes for my money.




yeah lets just lowball doom cause jr the guy who believed plummer was the next elway..dont think he's worth top money

then watch him walk next season...and our pass rush disinigrate

turftoad
05-18-2010, 06:11 PM
Doom is going to have more help in front of him. Peterson was horrible last season. McBean was probably the most consistant Dlineman when he was healthy. Fields wore down and was constantly pushed around, and the Broncos had no run D over the 2nd half. Insert Jamal Williams, Justin Bannan, a healthy McBean, Jarvis Green, and the rund D should be instantly improved. Forcing teams to throw will be a big advantage for this defense and allow Wink to be creative with the blitz packages.

What does all this add up to? Making Doom's job easier. He's a pure pass rusher. Like Charles Haley he isn't great against the run by any means, but if you can make up for that on the Dline, Doom can be disruptive in every game. He led the NFL in sacks with no line to support him last season. Give the man a Dline that can hold thier own in front of him, and he'll be in the top 3 in sacks every year.

Elite pass rushers are not a dime a dozen. The Broncos haven't had a consistant one since Simon Fletcher. Add in the fact that Doom is first class, team first, and clean as a whistle on and off the field. He epitomizes what McD wants in a player. McD has sent the message that if you don't buy into the team and work hard, your out of here. It's time to send the message that if you do, you'll be rewarded for it. Doom has the talent and the attitude. He makes this defense much better overall by being on the field. It's time to pay the man.

I agree however, the only thing I don't agree with is everyones expectations of an aging Williams and average players like Bannan and Green are going to make soooo much of a difference.

I don't buy it, seeing is believing.

Ziggy
05-18-2010, 06:28 PM
I agree however, the only thing I don't agree with is everyones expectations of an aging Williams and average players like Bannan and Green are going to make soooo much of a difference.

I don't buy it, seeing is believing.

Jamal Williams was the offseason move that was the most exciting to me, out of all of them. I understand his age and injury history, but I think he's going to be an absolute stud on 1st and 2nd downs. He may not get the sexy stats, but shutting down the run is priority #1 going into this season. Jamal can do that, and if he stays healthy, I just don't see him getting pushed around and overpowered like Fields did over the 2nd half of the season. Bannan is a stud against the run as well. Green is better used as a situational pass rusher. I'm hoping that McBean can play well enough to start, and Green can play on passing downs only.

Either way Turf, I can understand your hesitation to proclaim that our Dline has been upgraded. Like you said, seeing is believing. This year's training camp and preseason is going to be fun to watch.

Slick
05-18-2010, 06:33 PM
So your trying to sell me that Doom was the only one to disappear on the defense last year. Yea, um ok slick.

Whoa...let's not get carried away now Northman.

:bandit:

turftoad
05-18-2010, 07:36 PM
Jamal Williams was the offseason move that was the most exciting to me, out of all of them. I understand his age and injury history, but I think he's going to be an absolute stud on 1st and 2nd downs. He may not get the sexy stats, but shutting down the run is priority #1 going into this season. Jamal can do that, and if he stays healthy, I just don't see him getting pushed around and overpowered like Fields did over the 2nd half of the season. Bannan is a stud against the run as well. Green is better used as a situational pass rusher. I'm hoping that McBean can play well enough to start, and Green can play on passing downs only.

Either way Turf, I can understand your hesitation to proclaim that our Dline has been upgraded. Like you said, seeing is believing. This year's training camp and preseason is going to be fun to watch.

More worried about Williams age than anything, along with that comes injury concern. He's got a lot of years and miles on him for big feller.

Denver Native (Carol)
05-18-2010, 09:55 PM
http://www.vicandgary.com/

Click on podcasts, then open

TXBRONC
05-19-2010, 08:28 AM
Jamal Williams was the offseason move that was the most exciting to me, out of all of them. I understand his age and injury history, but I think he's going to be an absolute stud on 1st and 2nd downs. He may not get the sexy stats, but shutting down the run is priority #1 going into this season. Jamal can do that, and if he stays healthy, I just don't see him getting pushed around and overpowered like Fields did over the 2nd half of the season. Bannan is a stud against the run as well. Green is better used as a situational pass rusher. I'm hoping that McBean can play well enough to start, and Green can play on passing downs only.

Either way Turf, I can understand your hesitation to proclaim that our Dline has been upgraded. Like you said, seeing is believing. This year's training camp and preseason is going to be fun to watch.

Since we didn't get a nose tackle in the draft my hope is that Chris Baker can step up give a good accounting for himself. For that matter I hope Ayers can do the same.