View Full Version : View of McDaniels, from a Patriots Fan
Boston
05-14-2010, 01:59 PM
I am a longtime Patriots fan with a perspective on McDaniels, from watching almost every game since 1994. Many adore "McKid" in New England for all the points scored, but a significant fraction of fans there (including myself) were happy to see him go. I'm glad to see that so much of Broncos nation (here and at firejoshmcdaniels.com and joshmcdanielssucks.com sites) have picked up on the fact that McKid is arrogant, has people skill problems, doesn’t adjust, and is in over his head. I honestly feel sorry that he's your coach. I have a lot of respect for Broncos fans and their franchise (I used to live in Denver for several years), and know how tough your team always played us (more like killed us!). There is a chance McKid could do well eventually, like Belichick, in his second HC job, but I think he's going to be a disaster for you guys in his first HC job.
Even as a coordinator with New England, he would run the same half dozen predictable plays, over and over, then always get burned in playoffs against more experienced defensive coordinators. In my estimation, McKid is as stubbornly flawed an offensive play-caller as Mike Martz, and less talented as an overall coach IMO. Then there's his ego. In his one year in Denver, he already pushed out (alienated) key talents like Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, Scheffler, and Mike Nolan, all while talking out of both sides of his mouth. The common denominator in all of these spats was McDaniels. The funny thing is, he keeps trying to copy what he thinks Bill Belichick would do, but he forgets that Belichick himself made things work with risky malcontents like Corey Dillon and Randy Moss.
It's more his ego at play here than anything, and trust me has a massive ego. His first year as coordinator, Tom Brady refused to speak to him for 3 weeks (!!) during the regular season. It was reported that at half-time of the 2007 Superbowl, Brady and others were imploring McDaniels to make some adjustments, but he flipped out, told them to shut up, and that they weren't changing anything. In 2008 McDaniels was seen at halftime yelling in Belichick's ear while they walked across the field, with Belichick doing his best to ignore him and get to the locker room. It was his ego that vastly overpaid to draft Tebow. The truth is that it's really Belichick's QB school that knows how to produce QB's out of low draft picks (Brady, Cassel, and possibly Brian Hoyer), not McDaniels (or Charlie Weiss, for that matter). If it weren't about ego and McDaniels wanted to use his alleged competitive advantage in developing QB's, he would develop a low draft pick QB into a good one, not overpay for one.
Now off of coaching and onto drafting and player evaluation... McDaniels has made some pretty good trades in Denver, getting good value for the players he traded away. The problem is he has zero eye for talent. The Pats’ drafts from 2005-2008 weren’t that great, arguably the league's worst. However, I would argue that a lot of those drafts were f’d up by Josh McDaniels. Belichick likes to send his coordinators in the off-season to check out draft prospects, for their input. Key coordinators like Charlie Weiss and Romeo Crennel left after 2004, and their experience and input in seeing prospects during the draft process has been sorely missed.
Newspapers in Boston reported that Josh McKid personally scouted and pushed for WR Chad Jackson, QB Kevin O’Connell, RB Laurence Maroney, TE Garrett Mills, TE Dave Thomas, etc, all expensive (bust) draft picks. It’s clear Belichick quickly realized McDaniels had zero eye for talent, which is why Belichick ignored McDaniels' draft workouts in 2007 and instead traded for offensive players like Moss and Welker. Meanwhile, the defense was ignored for too long (due to McDaniels' urging for more offensive players), and the Pats began drafting very differently from the blue collar, non-skill-position players they picked high from 2001-2004. You can see that with McKid now in Denver and Pioli in KC, Belichick’s true style is back the past two drafts focusing on defensive studs and in the trenches. As an aside: Somehow the Pats started with 4 picks in the first 3 rounds, and ended up with 5 players PLUS a high Carolina 2nd rounder next year!
Anyways, there's my two cents. It's uneasy watching from afar what McDaniels is doing to your franchise, I'd rather win against a formidable opponent, but at the same time, maybe it was Belichick's plan all along to send a trojan horse over to his toughest opponent (sorry, I know poor/painful joke)!!
Italianmobstr7
05-14-2010, 02:13 PM
I stopped reading after the first paragraph. If us Broncos fans wanted the opinions of Pats fans about what you think of our head coach, I'm sure we'd go to your board and ask. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I don't like yours. None of us are in the Broncos locker room, nome of us know what goes on behind closed doors. We have no idea if McD doesn't have people skills or if he's arrogant as you claim. Thanks for your opinion and welcome to the boards but you might wanna start with something else besides bashing our coach and telling us what an arrogant ass he is.
T.K.O.
05-14-2010, 02:14 PM
hahaha ! nice try.
we beat the pats last year and will continue to do so.
players dont lobby at halftime of a superbowl to get oc's to change their gameplan...and if anyone would have made changes it would have been beli himself .
this is one of the worst attempts i have seen from a faux fan....
nice 1st post:laugh:
Northman
05-14-2010, 02:16 PM
Despite the babies giving you a hard time welcome to the board and thanks for your opinion on the matter. There are certainly some Bronco fans who feel what your saying.
claymore
05-14-2010, 02:17 PM
Hey Nature Boy.
KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
05-14-2010, 02:17 PM
Make an introduction thread of ****
KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
05-14-2010, 02:18 PM
Hey Nature Boy.
Nature Boy is a raider fa...oh
Slick
05-14-2010, 02:23 PM
Wash the sand out of your vaginas guys. My god.
Thanks for your take Boston. I think every coach has an ego so that part of him doesn't bother me. As far as his vision for rebuilding...(which we desperately needed IMO) we'll just have to wait and see.
Just like BB's buddy Parcells said. "If I'm making the meal, I'm buying the groceries." I can't argue with that.
Italianmobstr7
05-14-2010, 02:24 PM
Despite the babies giving you a hard time welcome to the board and thanks for your opinion on the matter. There are certainly some Bronco fans who feel what your saying.
His opinion is BS and you know it. He's just trying to get people riled up. How well do you think I would be received if I went over to the Pats board and started a thread like this:
Bill Belichick from a Broncos fan:
I think that Bill Belichick is a cheater. I think he taped signals and that's what helped him win all 3 super bowls that they did. I also think that he has terrible people skills because Adalius Thomas and a couple other players didn't want to play there because of the way they were treated. Also, I think that Billy B is a headcase and is arrogant because he's confident in his abilities. Too often he thinks he can win with "role players" and not super stars.
and so on and so on. You know how I'd be received over there if I did that? The same way he's being received here. You don't come to another teams board and first post just blast the head coach. There are some people that don't like McD but the majority of fans back the coach. Posting something like this is just an attempt to get under people's skin. Looks like someone is pissed about this: http://coloradosportsdesk.com/wp/wp-content/josh-mcdaniels-fist-pump.jpg from last year.
Northman
05-14-2010, 02:27 PM
His opinion is BS and you know it. He's just trying to get people riled up. How well do you think I would be received if I went over to the Pats board and started a thread like this:
Bill Belichick from a Broncos fan:
I think that Bill Belichick is a cheater. I think he taped signals and that's what helped him win all 3 super bowls that they did. I also think that he has terrible people skills because Adalius Thomas and a couple other players didn't want to play there because of the way they were treated. Also, I think that Billy B is a headcase and is arrogant because he's confident in his abilities. Too often he thinks he can win with "role players" and not super stars.
and so on and so on. You know how I'd be received over there if I did that? The same way he's being received here. You don't come to another teams board and first post just blast the head coach. There are some people that don't like McD but the majority of fans back the coach. Posting something like this is just an attempt to get under people's skin. Looks like someone is pissed about this: http://coloradosportsdesk.com/wp/wp-content/josh-mcdaniels-fist-pump.jpg from last year.
I thought we were better fans than that? Sounds more like an axe to grind on your part and maybe a little bitter of their success? :confused:
rationalfan
05-14-2010, 02:28 PM
it's hard for me to take the draft anecdotes/opinions seriously. especially when respected nfl writers mentioned that mcd was never allowed in new england's "inner circle" that dealt with drafting, free agency, etc.
regardless, all that matters is how many wins mcd will have. we'll know more in nine months.
Slick
05-14-2010, 02:28 PM
The guy admitted that we kick Patriot ass regularly, as well as giving kudos to bronco fans in general. I guess you missed that part mobster.
Northman
05-14-2010, 02:29 PM
Besides Italion, its not like he had 2 sentences and then just walked out. It was a well written post with some thought in it and was done respectfully. We have people blasting McD on here all the time regardless of team affliation so there's no need to be a bitch about it with someone like this.
Thanks for posting.
Next time, don't be so brief. I mean, there is no word limit to your posts.
Italianmobstr7
05-14-2010, 02:31 PM
I thought we were better fans than that? Sounds more like an axe to grind on your part and maybe a little bitter of their success? :confused:
I'm not saying that I WOULD ever start that. I'm saying him starting a thread like that here, is me starting a thread like that there. I'm not jealous of their success. I hope we can emulate it though. If you think it's fine that someone comes here and bashes our coach with his first post, then good for you. I'm not fine with it. I wouldn't do it to another board, so I don't want it done here. It's beating a dead horse. There's zero new stuff in here that everyone hasn't already heard. His "opinion" is just a bashing of our head coach in every single way. McD has an ego, Brady refused to talk to him, he's stubborn and won't change, he yelled at Billy B, he's hard to get along with. There's nothing new here, it's all just regurgitated BS. Every Broncos fan on this board pretty much knows how they feel about McDaniels whether it's good or bad. What's the point of getting a Patriots fans opinion? We get it, everyone outside of Denver thinks McD is a jackass. Good for them. It will make it all the more sweeter when the Broncos prove everyone (even some of their own fans) wrong.
Northman
05-14-2010, 02:35 PM
I'm not saying that I WOULD ever start that. I'm saying him starting a thread like that here, is me starting a thread like that there. I'm not jealous of their success. I hope we can emulate it though. If you think it's fine that someone comes here and bashes our coach with his first post, then good for you. I'm not fine with it. I wouldn't do it to another board, so I don't want it done here. It's beating a dead horse. Every Broncos fan on this board pretty much knows how they feel about McDaniels whether it's good or bad. What's the point of getting a Patriots fans opinion? We get it, everyone outside of Denver thinks McD is a jackass. Good for them. It will make it all the more sweeter when the Broncos prove everyone (even some of their own fans) wrong.
Whats the point of his opinion? Our HC comes from his team dude. He would have a lot more insight to McD than we would. Unless you subscribe to the New England Times or Boston Globe. I mean, i guess you could of just ignored the thread altogether if you think he is full of crap but i never took any offense too it so neither should you. McD hasnt proven anything yet to warrant a defensive stance from any fan. Just because he is the HC does not mean he is the messiah. If McDaniels is the guy he will prove it in time. But right now he hasnt proven anything and just because a Patriots fan see's some of what some of us have seen doesnt mean he should be treated like shit. Give the guy a chance already.
BigBroncLove
05-14-2010, 02:38 PM
FYI I think the best way to get a proper well formed idea of what us Broncos fans think of Belichick is to go to the smack forum :) .
Italianmobstr7
05-14-2010, 02:41 PM
Whats the point of his opinion? Our HC comes from his team dude. He would have a lot more insight to McD than we would. Unless you subscribe to the New England Times or Boston Globe. I mean, i guess you could of just ignored the thread altogether if you think he is full of crap but i never took any offense too it so neither should you. McD hasnt proven anything yet to warrant a defensive stance from any fan. Just because he is the HC does not mean he is the messiah. If McDaniels is the guy he will prove it in time. But right now he hasnt proven anything and just because a Patriots fan see's some of what some of us have seen doesnt mean he should be treated like shit. Give the guy a chance already.
Did you see anything NEW in his post that you haven't seen already? What "inside" information does he have that we haven't seen so far? He sure as hell didn't post it. I'm not sure what you're not seeing here, but this is CLEARLY a trolling thread. He came here to post his opinion about how he thinks McD sucks and he's "truly sorry" that he's our coach. I may be a Broncos fan, but I'm also an NFL fan. I watch as many games as I can (when the Denver game isn't on). I have Sunday Ticket, and I do my research. I never said McD was the messiah. ANY fan of ANY team who comes to our board and bashes any player, or coach on our team can F OFF. McD is our head coach. I'll support him until the wheels fall off. He can have a chance. If he comes back and posts, I'd welcome him with open arms, as long as it's not another BS thread like this one.
He's basically saying that McD had more control over the draft than Belichick, the GM, and the other scouts combined. I'm sorry, but no.
Yeah, it was a bit biased and fairly unrealistic.
Not trying to slam the guy, but I ain't buying.
Italianmobstr7
05-14-2010, 02:44 PM
Whats the point of his opinion? Our HC comes from his team dude.
Based on your reasoning then, we should be able to go to the Redskins forum, talk shit on Shanahan and no one should get upset, and take our opinion and welcome us to the forums? Good luck with that. Go to a Redskins forum and tell them that Shanny has an ego, is a terrible drafter, is loyal to a fault (with Slowik) and his message gets old and has trouble putting together defenses. I mean, he came from Denver so they should just take whatever we have to say and be fine with it right?
Oh, and we will try to be a more formidable opponent for "your" Pats next year. LOL.
Slick
05-14-2010, 02:47 PM
Based on your reasoning then, we should be able to go to the Redskins forum, talk shit on Shanahan and no one should get upset, and take our opinion and welcome us to the forums? Good luck with that. Go to a Redskins forum and tell them that Shanny has an ego, is a terrible drafter, is loyal to a fault (with Slowik) and his message gets old and has trouble putting together defenses. I mean, he came from Denver so they should just take whatever we have to say and be fine with it right?
Everything you just said about Shanahan is true.
T.K.O.
05-14-2010, 02:49 PM
i can't believe anyone is falling for this....again?
there is no way this is not a former(likely banned)member.
it's an obvious attempt to stir up sh..
has anyone seen arapaho2 today?:confused:
mcD has alot more players (tom brady included) who have publicly stated how much they like the guy and respect his abilities than those who do not.
this is a piece of trash 1st post ....no matter how you slice it:tsk:
If Tebow were here, this guy would be banned already.
Northman
05-14-2010, 02:52 PM
Based on your reasoning then, we should be able to go to the Redskins forum, talk shit on Shanahan and no one should get upset, and take our opinion and welcome us to the forums? Good luck with that. Go to a Redskins forum and tell them that Shanny has an ego, is a terrible drafter, is loyal to a fault (with Slowik) and his message gets old and has trouble putting together defenses. I mean, he came from Denver so they should just take whatever we have to say and be fine with it right?
Techinically you could except Shanahan has a better resume than McDaniels. But yea, we do have more insight to Shanahan than the Skins do and most Skins fans welcome Bronco fans who have something to say on him. They may not like the bad stuff that gets said but they at least hear them out without being a bitch about it.
Northman
05-14-2010, 02:53 PM
i can't believe anyone is falling for this....again?
there is no way this is not a former(likely banned)member.
it's an obvious attempt to stir up sh..
has anyone seen arapaho2 today?:confused:
mcD has alot more players (tom brady included) who have publicly stated how much they like the guy and respect his abilities than those who do not.
this is a piece of trash 1st post ....no matter how you slice it:tsk:
Yet of course if he was glorifying McD you guys would be sucking him off right about now. :lol:
BigBroncLove
05-14-2010, 03:01 PM
Yet of course if he was glorifying McD you guys would be sucking him off right about now. :lol:
For me its about being believable. Every poor decision, every misstep, every hiccup the Patriots encountered while McD was in NE, the OP generally pointed to him as being the problem. Say what you will but not even Hitler ruined everything the Nazi's did. It just comes off as unbalanced a point of view as possible, and I tend not to give any sort of credit to such things. The same would be true if he only praised McD. No person is an absolute, except Jessica Alba.
Yep, some people's troll and BS detectors need new batteries. He mixes in a couple of ture statements with a bunch of BS.
1. The Patriots had their best offensive years under McDaniels. This dude tries to talk like he brought their offense down...the Pats offense with McD and Cassell put up pretty much identical numbers to what they did last year with Tom Brady.
2. Not every player McD has brought in is a choir boy. The only player or coach that he has shipped off that had character concerns is Marshall...depending on where you stand with Cutler.
3. Pretty much the entire 3rd paragraph is pure conjecture with no facts or sources to back it up.
4. I already touched on the draft part...he puts all of the balm of every bust that NE drafted on McD as if he was the man in charge. I have no idea what the power structure of NE's front office was like, but I can guarantee that he didn't have the final say on any of those draft picks.
5. I believe McDaniels and the Broncos beat NE last year.
Edit: The only thing I agree with is that he is a little arrogant and stubborn. If you aren't going to do things his way as a Bronco then you better ****. Most head coaches are this way, but McD may be a little too harsh in this area. I'd rather have a head coach be that way than let the inmates run the asylum though.
Northman
05-14-2010, 03:05 PM
For me its about being believable. Every poor decision, every misstep, every hiccup the Patriots encountered while McD was in NE, the OP generally pointed to him as being the problem. Say what you will but not even Hitler ruined everything the Nazi's did. It just comes off as unbalanced a point of view as possible, and I tend not to give any sort of credit to such things. The same would be true if he only praised McD. No person is an absolute, except Jessica Alba.
That may be true for you but for some of these guys i can tell you they cant distinguish any of that which you just mentioned.
SOCALORADO.
05-14-2010, 03:06 PM
i can't believe anyone is falling for this....again?
there is no way this is not a former(likely banned)member.
it's an obvious attempt to stir up sh..
has anyone seen arapaho2 today?:confused:
mcD has alot more players (tom brady included) who have publicly stated how much they like the guy and respect his abilities than those who do not.
this is a piece of trash 1st post ....no matter how you slice it:tsk:
I believe you are right, and i think i know who it is.
He did leave out the word hyperbole, which is his fav though.
I believe you are right, and i think i know who it is.
He did leave out the word hyperbole, which is his fav though.
I was searching for that word in my head for like 2 minutes because I wanted to use it in my post. I feel dumb now.
broncophan
05-14-2010, 03:24 PM
I am a longtime Patriots fan with a perspective on McDaniels, from watching almost every game since 1994. Many adore "McKid" in New England for all the points scored, but a significant fraction of fans there (including myself) were happy to see him go. I'm glad to see that so much of Broncos nation (here and at firejoshmcdaniels.com and joshmcdanielssucks.com sites) have picked up on the fact that McKid is arrogant, has people skill problems, doesn’t adjust, and is in over his head. I honestly feel sorry that he's your coach. I have a lot of respect for Broncos fans and their franchise (I used to live in Denver for several years), and know how tough your team always played us (more like killed us!). There is a chance McKid could do well eventually, like Belichick, in his second HC job, but I think he's going to be a disaster for you guys in his first HC job.
Even as a coordinator with New England, he would run the same half dozen predictable plays, over and over, then always get burned in playoffs against more experienced defensive coordinators. In my estimation, McKid is as stubbornly flawed an offensive play-caller as Mike Martz, and less talented as an overall coach IMO. Then there's his ego. In his one year in Denver, he already pushed out (alienated) key talents like Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, Scheffler, and Mike Nolan, all while talking out of both sides of his mouth. The common denominator in all of these spats was McDaniels. The funny thing is, he keeps trying to copy what he thinks Bill Belichick would do, but he forgets that Belichick himself made things work with risky malcontents like Corey Dillon and Randy Moss.
It's more his ego at play here than anything, and trust me has a massive ego. His first year as coordinator, Tom Brady refused to speak to him for 3 weeks (!!) during the regular season. It was reported that at half-time of the 2007 Superbowl, Brady and others were imploring McDaniels to make some adjustments, but he flipped out, told them to shut up, and that they weren't changing anything. In 2008 McDaniels was seen at halftime yelling in Belichick's ear while they walked across the field, with Belichick doing his best to ignore him and get to the locker room. It was his ego that vastly overpaid to draft Tebow. The truth is that it's really Belichick's QB school that knows how to produce QB's out of low draft picks (Brady, Cassel, and possibly Brian Hoyer), not McDaniels (or Charlie Weiss, for that matter). If it weren't about ego and McDaniels wanted to use his alleged competitive advantage in developing QB's, he would develop a low draft pick QB into a good one, not overpay for one.
Now off of coaching and onto drafting and player evaluation... McDaniels has made some pretty good trades in Denver, getting good value for the players he traded away. The problem is he has zero eye for talent. The Pats’ drafts from 2005-2008 weren’t that great, arguably the league's worst. However, I would argue that a lot of those drafts were f’d up by Josh McDaniels. Belichick likes to send his coordinators in the off-season to check out draft prospects, for their input. Key coordinators like Charlie Weiss and Romeo Crennel left after 2004, and their experience and input in seeing prospects during the draft process has been sorely missed.
Newspapers in Boston reported that Josh McKid personally scouted and pushed for WR Chad Jackson, QB Kevin O’Connell, RB Laurence Maroney, TE Garrett Mills, TE Dave Thomas, etc, all expensive (bust) draft picks. It’s clear Belichick quickly realized McDaniels had zero eye for talent, which is why Belichick ignored McDaniels' draft workouts in 2007 and instead traded for offensive players like Moss and Welker. Meanwhile, the defense was ignored for too long (due to McDaniels' urging for more offensive players), and the Pats began drafting very differently from the blue collar, non-skill-position players they picked high from 2001-2004. You can see that with McKid now in Denver and Pioli in KC, Belichick’s true style is back the past two drafts focusing on defensive studs and in the trenches. As an aside: Somehow the Pats started with 4 picks in the first 3 rounds, and ended up with 5 players PLUS a high Carolina 2nd rounder next year!
Anyways, there's my two cents. It's uneasy watching from afar what McDaniels is doing to your franchise, I'd rather win against a formidable opponent, but at the same time, maybe it was Belichick's plan all along to send a trojan horse over to his toughest opponent (sorry, I know poor/painful joke)!!
Wow.....thanks for posting.....and I really value your opinion of your former offensive coach.....who coached under Mr. Bellycheck.:lol:
With all the changes McD made before last season......ovar all......things went well.
Mr. Bowlen, as he is proving, will give McD every opportunity to build his team the way he wants to......that is obvious with all the changes and the way the draft/signings have gone so far.......
McD really made a mess of things while he was in New England now didn't he?Quite honestly.....a pats fan opinion does not really matter......but again, thanks for taking your time to come over here and post.....it was entertaining to say the least to read your post.
That may be true for you but for some of these guys i can tell you they cant distinguish any of that which you just mentioned.
Hey, I would have figured it out eventually.
jhildebrand
05-14-2010, 04:30 PM
His opinion is BS and you know it..
How can anyone's opinion be wrong let alone BS. :rolleyes:
I also dont get why people choose to bag this poster for their post. If you dont like it, don't read it. I am simply astonished how many people are out to side track a thread for the sake of a flame war. It's ridiculous.
Tempus Fugit
05-14-2010, 05:01 PM
How can anyone's opinion be wrong let alone BS. :rolleyes:
Very easily. Just ask Cavaliers fans who were of the opinion that their team would win the NBA championship this season, for an example.
I also dont get why people choose to bag this poster for their post. If you dont like it, don't read it. I am simply astonished how many people are out to side track a thread for the sake of a flame war. It's ridiculous.
Well, the O.P. is full of false information and heavily biased slants. That would tend to make people bag on it.
EMB6903
05-14-2010, 05:14 PM
I love how these Patsies fans can come in here and try telling us about the head coach whose team were all fans of....Hilarious.
Denver Native (Carol)
05-14-2010, 05:18 PM
Even as a coordinator with New England, he would run the same half dozen predictable plays, over and over, then always get burned in playoffs against more experienced defensive coordinators.
http://blog.denverbroncos.com/denver...-elvis-sunday/
“I’ve called plays for five straight seasons now, I don’t think we’ve ever really run the same type of base offense — we’ve changed it because we were different,” he said. “We have different sets of players, different skills and different unique players that can do different things.
We might be in the midst of another experiment :tsk:
silkamilkamonico
05-14-2010, 05:20 PM
How can anyone's opinion be wrong let alone BS. :rolleyes:
I also dont get why people choose to bag this poster for their post. If you dont like it, don't read it. I am simply astonished how many people are out to side track a thread for the sake of a flame war. It's ridiculous.
Anyone following along with the McDaniels saga on these boards, could see that any thread posted about the team during McDaniels first year tenure was nothing but side tracked to a flame war bagging on Mcdaniels.
It's refreshing to see Bronco fans actually sticking up for Mcdaniels for once, instead of turning against him.
LoyalSoldier
05-14-2010, 05:46 PM
I always get wary of random "Fans" of players and coaches at their last stops who come here and give their opinion whether we wanted it or not.
Lonestar
05-14-2010, 10:56 PM
I saw it as a an old member that has been banned before coming over to stir up some crap.
To see what havoc he could make.
That or he does not really have clue who MCD really is.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums
Bosco
05-14-2010, 10:59 PM
Oh boy, I'm going to have fun destroying this one.
Even as a coordinator with New England, he would run the same half dozen predictable plays, over and over
Absolute, 100% pure bullshit. His offenses changed significantly every year he was there, and defensive coordinators have come out and said that trying to prepare for Josh McDaniels is like trying to trying to prepare for 6 offenses at once.
then always get burned in playoffs against more experienced defensive coordinators. Again, 100% false. Here are his playoff losses.
- 2005: Lost against our very own defense which was having an excellent year.
- 2006: Lost on the road to the Colts with a patchwork offense.
- 2007: Last minute loss in the Super Bowl against an elite defense while his QB and two offensive linemen were battling through injuries.
Overall, he's 5-3 in the playoffs.
In my estimation, McKid is as stubbornly flawed an offensive play-caller as Mike Martz, and less talented as an overall coach IMO. Your estimation sucks though.
Then there's his ego. In his one year in Denver, he already pushed out (alienated) key talents like Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, Scheffler, and Mike Nolan
Cutler - Requested a trade because he was pissed that Shanny and Jeremy Bates got fired, then promptly got to Chicago and lied to the national media.
Marshall - Long history of problems under the previous staff
Scheffler - Openly wished for the season to be over while his teammates were fighting for their playoff lives which resulted in several well respected veterans approaching McD and asking him to deal with it.
Nolan - Differences were strictly about defensive philosophy. Josh was making him run a more aggressive scheme, which Nolan did not like, so they made a mutual decision for Nolan to leave and join a team where he would have more control. By all accounts the split was perfectly amicable.
all while talking out of both sides of his mouth. Examples?
The common denominator in all of these spats was McDaniels. Or, in the case of the players, they were all young offensive "stars" that were brought up under a staff known to coddle those types.
The funny thing is, he keeps trying to copy what he thinks Bill Belichick would do, but he forgets that Belichick himself made things work with risky malcontents like Corey Dillon and Randy Moss. A) Don't you think McD had a bit to do with those guys coming to New England and the roles they played on the team? B) Now that McD has established the type of locker room he wants to have, he will be more inclined to take those risks like he did on draft day with Perrish Cox.
trust me has a massive ego. Good.
His first year as coordinator, Tom Brady refused to speak to him for 3 weeks (!!) during the regular season. Nice twist. The reports were that they didn't speak for a few weeks, it didn't say who initiated the standoff or what the cause of it was.
Either way, the relationship was quickly repaired and Brady and McD had a great working relationship for the remainder of his time there.
It was reported that at half-time of the 2007 Superbowl, Brady and others were imploring McDaniels to make some adjustments, but he flipped out, told them to shut up, and that they weren't changing anything. Really? That's the first I've heard of this. Sounds like a Josina Anderson type of rumor to me.
In 2008 McDaniels was seen at halftime yelling in Belichick's ear while they walked across the field, with Belichick doing his best to ignore him and get to the locker room. Really? What game?
It was his ego that vastly overpaid to draft Tebow. Wrong again. He picked Tebow right in the range he was projected to go in and did so with picks he acquired from some excellent draft day maneuvering.
The truth is that it's really Belichick's QB school that knows how to produce QB's out of low draft picks (Brady, Cassel, and possibly Brian Hoyer), not McDaniels (or Charlie Weiss, for that matter). False. Belichick is a defensive minded coach and Brady's career improved substantially after Josh was made the QB coach in 2004.
If it weren't about ego and McDaniels wanted to use his alleged competitive advantage in developing QB's, he would develop a low draft pick QB into a good one, not overpay for one. How realistic is it to expect to find another Tom Brady in the 6th round? Not very, and why should he spend years waiting for that to maybe happen when he saw a QB he liked and could move up to get him without much cost?
Now off of coaching and onto drafting and player evaluation... McDaniels has made some pretty good trades in Denver, getting good value for the players he traded away. The problem is he has zero eye for talent. The Pats’ drafts from 2005-2008 weren’t that great, arguably the league's worst. However, I would argue that a lot of those drafts were f’d up by Josh McDaniels. Belichick likes to send his coordinators in the off-season to check out draft prospects, for their input. Key coordinators like Charlie Weiss and Romeo Crennel left after 2004, and their experience and input in seeing prospects during the draft process has been sorely missed. That's some serious mental gymnastics, but ok.
Newspapers in Boston reported that Josh McKid personally scouted and pushed for WR Chad Jackson, QB Kevin O’Connell, RB Laurence Maroney, TE Garrett Mills, TE Dave Thomas, etc, all expensive (bust) draft picks.
Jackson - Has never really been healthy going back to his rookie year and was made expendable when the team acquired Moss in 2007.
O'Connell - An extremely raw but talented developmental quarterback who was selected with the possibility of being Brady's eventual replacement. He didn't work out there, but he only had 1 season of working with McD and wasn't cut until after McD was gone, at which point McD tried to acquire him again.
Maroney - Has been a pretty good running back when he's healthy, which isn't often.
Mills - Drafted for depth and to play a hybrid TE/FB role. Cut because he was injured his whole rookie year and they didn't need him.
Thomas - Couldn't stay healthy and was traded.
As you can see here, the common denominator with these players (except O'Connell) is injury problems, however none of them were all that expensive and with the exception of Maroney and Jackson, they were all selected in the 3rd round or later and played positions with established starters ahead of them.
It’s clear Belichick quickly realized McDaniels had zero eye for talent He's gone on record saying exactly the opposite.
which is why Belichick ignored McDaniels' draft workouts in 2007 and instead traded for offensive players like Moss and Welker. Again, Belichick has gone on record saying exactly the opposite.
Meanwhile, the defense was ignored for too long (due to McDaniels' urging for more offensive players) You're kidding, right? This is downright laughable.
and the Pats began drafting very differently from the blue collar, non-skill-position players they picked high from 2001-2004. I suggest you go back and look at your team's drafts in that time frame, because you're incorrect again.
You can see that with McKid now in Denver and Pioli in KC How?
Belichick’s true style is back the past two drafts focusing on defensive studs and in the trenches. You don't think it has something to do with the defense's decline over the last few years while the offense remains strong thanks to the system McD implemented?
(sorry, I know poor/painful joke)!! I assume you meant your whole post?
tomjonesrocks
05-14-2010, 11:02 PM
Personally, I enjoyed the post, 100% true or not. There's a lull of interesting topics now that the draft is done.
girler
05-14-2010, 11:19 PM
I like the OP's name. Because OBVIOUSLY he knows what he's talking about since he's named after that town the patsies play in.
The only other person I've heard of named Boston is that one really annoying dude on Survivor a few years ago's son. He would stare in the ocean and cry about how much he loved his kid. I remember the name because it was tattooed on his moob. :lol:
Shazam!
05-15-2010, 12:25 AM
Welcome to the Board Broncos-fan-McDaniels-hater-disguised-as-a-Patriots-fan.
I don't buy the whole lack of people skills argument. If what you say were true, none of the ex-Patriots on the team would've wanted to be near the guy. The veteran players in the LR - especially guys like Dawkins, Champ, Graham etc. - are very supportitive of the guy, and there are plenty of public statements on this where players have gone out of their way to praise their coach.
Yeah, the guy obviously has some faults, he's human (apparently). But to me, I think you're just shit stirring a bit.
NittanyBuff24
05-15-2010, 06:48 AM
No doubt the guy has little mans disease and without question talked out both sides of his mouth during the Cutler saga, but while I personally wanted a defensive minded coach, its time to give him a chance and he will sink or swim with all of these trades and moves!
gator_fan
05-15-2010, 07:15 AM
I am a longtime Patriots fan with a perspective on McDaniels,
What an idiotic screed. You have a perspective alright, and I don't think I have ever seen someone try so hard to morph their biases into something resembling reality. Your individual points are, quite frankly, not worth addressing, but I see many posters did, and I admire their taking the time to do so. The Broncos will be an exciting team this year, and fans will not be disappointed. That's my perspective. Oh, and I don't care about McDaniels (or anybody elses) people skills or personality. I just want us to win games...lots of games.
BroncoJoe
05-15-2010, 09:13 AM
One post and gone. Pretty much says everything I need to know.
http://blog.denverbroncos.com/denver...-elvis-sunday/
“I’ve called plays for five straight seasons now, I don’t think we’ve ever really run the same type of base offense — we’ve changed it because we were different,” he said. “We have different sets of players, different skills and different unique players that can do different things.
We might be in the midst of another experiment :tsk:
Yes, he said that. He also said that teams wouldn't know what to prepare for on Sunday, because like when in New England, if the watched the last 5 weeks of Broncos game tape, they would see five completely different offenses and not know which one to prepare for.
We watched the games last year. Were all those bubble screens from week to week really so confusing that opposing teams didn't know how to prepare?
Coaches say a lot of things, some of it they actually even believe, but that doesn't make it true.
Anyone following along with the McDaniels saga on these boards, could see that any thread posted about the team during McDaniels first year tenure was nothing but side tracked to a flame war bagging on Mcdaniels.
It's refreshing to see Bronco fans actually sticking up for Mcdaniels for once, instead of turning against him.
This one gave me a chuckle. There was a few weeks following the Cutler debacle where McDaniels was pretty soundly bashed, which he deserved for how things went down, forgetting about whether we are better off without Cutler. However, after that the Fan Police united and this board could easily have been renamed to McDanilesIsGod.com a year ago, because the vocal minority blindly defends him and shouts down any criticism. That criticism doesn't have to come from an opposing fan, like in this thread, but the response from the fan police is the same.
One post and gone. Pretty much says everything I need to know.
I'm sure he was so overwhelmed by the warm welcome that we gave him that he's just a bit overwhelmed and trying to get hold of his emotions.... :sarcasm:
In terms of BroncosForums and Broncos fans, there is nothing I am more ashamed of then the way new posters, some times from opposing teams, are often treated. We have seen it many times with fans from other teams that stop in on game day, not to talk trash, but to try and have a decent discussion with opposing fans (as I have done by going to other team's forums), and we have a decent contingent of posters that just flame them when they do it.
rcsodak
05-15-2010, 09:57 AM
I thought we were better fans than that? Sounds more like an axe to grind on your part and maybe a little bitter of their success? :confused:
Or maybe you went to a buddy's house, and borrowed his computer .
:coffee:
Ravage!!!
05-15-2010, 10:00 AM
In terms of BroncosForums and Broncos fans, there is nothing I am more ashamed of then the way new posters, some times from opposing teams, are often treated. We have seen it many times with fans from other teams that stop in on game day, not to talk trash, but to try and have a decent discussion with opposing fans (as I have done by going to other team's forums), and we have a decent contingent of posters that just flame them when they do it.
This is dead on. But thats only if the other-team-fan doesn't come in and immediately compliment our coaches. Its like kissing the Blarney Stone. In order for some fans to welcome your thoughts, the visiting fan must first kiss the fingers of McDaniels and compliment him. If they give an opinion that isn't complimentary.. well... then..... he can't possibly be anything other than a troll. For who in their right mind would have anything other than kind words for McD?
rcsodak
05-15-2010, 10:01 AM
Techinically you could except Shanahan has a better resume than McDaniels. But yea, we do have more insight to Shanahan than the Skins do and most Skins fans welcome Bronco fans who have something to say on him. They may not like the bad stuff that gets said but they at least hear them out without being a bitch about it.
????
Why? Did you go over there and make a comparable post? :rolleyes:
rcsodak
05-15-2010, 10:05 AM
http://blog.denverbroncos.com/denver...-elvis-sunday/
“I’ve called plays for five straight seasons now, I don’t think we’ve ever really run the same type of base offense — we’ve changed it because we were different,” he said. “We have different sets of players, different skills and different unique players that can do different things.
We might be in the midst of another experiment :tsk:
Nope.
Too "readable".
Nope.
Too "readable".
The multi-quote button http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif is your friend, don't be afraid to use it.
Northman
05-15-2010, 10:12 AM
Or maybe you went to a buddy's house, and borrowed his computer .
:coffee:
Oh gosh, you got me.
Northman
05-15-2010, 10:13 AM
The multi-quote button http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif is your friend, don't be afraid to use it.
It was his birthday recently, he is getting old and cant use a computer. ;)
rcsodak
05-15-2010, 10:14 AM
Yes, he said that. He also said that teams wouldn't know what to prepare for on Sunday, because like when in New England, if the watched the last 5 weeks of Broncos game tape, they would see five completely different offenses and not know which one to prepare for.
We watched the games last year. Were all those bubble screens from week to week really so confusing that opposing teams didn't know how to prepare?
Coaches say a lot of things, some of it they actually even believe, but that doesn't make it true.
This one gave me a chuckle. There was a few weeks following the Cutler debacle where McDaniels was pretty soundly bashed, which he deserved for how things went down, forgetting about whether we are better off without Cutler. However, after that the Fan Police united and this board could easily have been renamed to McDanilesIsGod.com a year ago, because the vocal minority blindly defends him and shouts down any criticism. That criticism doesn't have to come from an opposing fan, like in this thread, but the response from the fan police is the same.
I'm sure he was so overwhelmed by the warm welcome that we gave him that he's just a bit overwhelmed and trying to get hold of his emotions.... :sarcasm:
In terms of BroncosForums and Broncos fans, there is nothing I am more ashamed of then the way new posters, some times from opposing teams, are often treated. We have seen it many times with fans from other teams that stop in on game day, not to talk trash, but to try and have a decent discussion with opposing fans (as I have done by going to other team's forums), and we have a decent contingent of posters that just flame them when they do it.
Thanks, Barney. :elefant:
rcsodak
05-15-2010, 10:15 AM
The multi-quote button http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif is your friend, don't be afraid to use it.
That a rule? :confused:
rcsodak
05-15-2010, 10:17 AM
It was his birthday recently, he is getting old and cant use a computer. ;)
Oh gosh, you got me.
[/B]
Thanks, Barney. :elefant:
My names not Barney, but nice try Barack.
Northman
05-15-2010, 10:21 AM
My names not Barney, but nice try Barack.
Oh Zing! :lol:
T.K.O.
05-15-2010, 10:23 AM
imo its not that this guy had negative things to say about mcD,its more the way it was presented.
it was so obviously an attempt to "lure" people in and then basically say that the broncos are screwed and the pats where glad to see mcD go.
i have seen no evidence of either being accurate.
therefore it is entirely within our rights to refute the idea's presented,and ask for facts.
if someone where to use a couple of his examples in an existing thread,i dont think there would be near the backlash.
but to come in on post 1 and basically tear down the HC and the team i think you had better be prepared to take some heat.
not to mention the fact that there has been 0 effort to justify the original remarks.
i'm fairly certain the OP achieved exactly what he set out to achieve.
stir up some crap and sit back and :laugh: at the results.
now i wish i could figure out who it is....cuz they are watching.....oh yes,they are watching:shocked:
That a rule? :confused:
Since you asked....
You're treading very close to the line in terms of rule 10. You might actually try reading them some time and you will realize that the 'spirit' of the rules is to treat other posters with respect, not to flame, take pot shots or try and tear them down.
You might give that a shot, treating other posters with respect, who knows, you might surprise yourself and actually like it. Just a thought, take it or leave it, just like Botson's post. :elefant:
Carry on, Barack.
rcsodak
05-15-2010, 10:33 AM
Since you asked....
You're treading very close to the line in terms of rule 10. You might actually try reading them some time and you will realize that the 'spirit' of the rules is to treat other posters with respect, not to flame, take pot shots or try and tear them down.
You might give that a shot, treating other posters with respect, who knows, you might surprise yourself and actually like it. Just a thought, take it or leave it, just like Botson's post. :elefant:
Carry on, Barack.
Ok. So you being the admin, you're beyond rule 10?
Gotcha. :coffee:
I think it's obvious "Botson's post" was a farce. immho.
The use of "Barney" was because of your "i love you, you love me........",cant we all just get along, paragraph.
I guess I should have just mentioned "vaginas" and the such.
Silly me. :coffee:
ps. And if I WAS Barack, you'd be shut down, broke and looking for work. :rolleyes:
Ok. So you being the admin, you're beyond rule 10?
Gotcha. :coffee:
I think it's obvious "Botson's post" was a farce. immho.
The use of "Barney" was because of your "i love you, you love me........",cant we all just get along, paragraph.
I guess I should have just mentioned "vaginas" and the such.
Silly me. :coffee:
ps. And if I WAS Barack, you'd be shut down, broke and looking for work. :rolleyes:
Hey, can someone help me out. I vaguely remember this thread being about Josh McDaniels, the head coach of the Broncos, not other posters. Am I missing something? Still half asleep, so it's possible. :confused:
Northman
05-15-2010, 10:40 AM
Hey, can someone help me out. I vaguely remember this thread being about Josh McDaniels, the head coach of the Broncos, not other posters. Am I missing something? Still half asleep, so it's possible. :confused:
Given that particular poster are you shocked by this?
T.K.O.
05-15-2010, 10:45 AM
sooooooo... on the other hand i rather like some of mcdaniels moves.
the addition of dawkins was nothing short of brilliant.
this years draft looks promising,moreno seems to have a future in the league and we beat a few teams last year that nobody gave us a chance to dallas,nyG,patriots and the bolts in their house to name a few !:D:salute:
sooooooo... on the other hand i rather like some of mcdaniels moves.
the addition of dawkins was nothing short of brilliant.
this years draft looks promising,moreno seems to have a future in the league and we beat a few teams last year that nobody gave us a chance to dallas,nyG,patriots and the bolts in their house to name a few !:D:salute:
I think the way he ran training camp was great. I hope that was mostly him, vs. Nolan, and that reports of this years TC are just as focused and targeted-drill focused.
While I think he ****** up big time in how he handled Cutler and Marshall (even if he was set on trading them, he shouldn't have gotten into public pissing contests with no outcome other than to diminish their value -- especially with Marshall), I DO like the fact that he made a bold move to draft a couple guys that 'might' be able to replace the talent void made by moving Marshall and Cutler.
I like the fact that McDaniels isn't afraid to let people see that he is happy that he's living his dream, and acts like a kid at a Fantasy Football camp.
I think he's got an incredible football mind, but he also has a massive ego. I just hope he figures out the balance between those while he is still out HC, because I think in the long run he's going to be a very good head coach, I'm just not sure how quickly he will get there.
He should probably not have been given full control of the organization, but instead been allowed to prove himself as a coach, before controlling all personnel aspects.
T.K.O.
05-15-2010, 11:01 AM
unfortunately as with most of us.you love the passion he shows about the game and the "childlike" enthusiasm .but passionate people can't "turn it off" sometimes and it gets them into trouble.
he expects everyone to be as "GUNG HO" as he is and that wont always be the case.
i do prefer his approach to that of shanny's (in the later years) when the team and coaches seemed to be going through the motions.
i think mcD will find a happy medium,though it may take a couple more years.
josh has already alluded to the fact that he needs to make some changes personally and learn from the past.
that's a pretty big admission for a guy who has been put in such a high profile position at such a young age.
the one thing that stands out to me is that the guy HATES to lose and seems that he will stop at nothing to avoid it !
that may backfire on him ....but you gotta love the FIRE !:salute:
jhildebrand
05-15-2010, 11:03 AM
Anyone following along with the McDaniels saga on these boards, could see that any thread posted about the team during McDaniels first year tenure was nothing but side tracked to a flame war bagging on Mcdaniels.
It's refreshing to see Bronco fans actually sticking up for Mcdaniels for once, instead of turning against him.
Please. On any of the boards I have visited I have seen McDaniels bagged-rightfully so at times- and those threads flamed by the Pro McD camp with baseless information.
I have seen Pro McD threads bagged and flamed by the anti McD people with baseless information. It happens in both camps. The only difference I can see is the pro McD crowd tends to whine and cry a bit more vocally when their thread gets sidetracked acting all along as if the pro McD group is somehow superior and as if they don't do the very same. :lol:
What is a bit ridiculous here, IMHO, is the fact that some posters seem to be on 'auto-pilot' at all times with the content of their posts. You would think they are paid by the Broncos.
It would have been far easier to attack the post in this case then the poster.
Shazam!
05-15-2010, 11:46 AM
In terms of BroncosForums and Broncos fans, there is nothing I am more ashamed of then the way new posters, some times from opposing teams, are often treated. We have seen it many times with fans from other teams that stop in on game day, not to talk trash, but to try and have a decent discussion with opposing fans (as I have done by going to other team's forums), and we have a decent contingent of posters that just flame them when they do it.
C'mon Tned. It is soooo obvious this is a bait thread by someone who used to be a regular here posing as a Patriots fan spewing hate about Josh McDaniels. Everything said in the OP has been said by someone else already, there is nothing new.
It has nothing to do with love/hate McDaniels, even though that's the topic of the thread. If it was vice-versa, it'd still apply because it's fake. Similar to the fake pro-McDaniels thread made by Arapho a week or two ago.
It's probably Lex or Nature Boy.
C'mon Tned. It is soooo obvious this is a bait thread by someone who used to be a regular here posing as a Patriots fan spewing hate about Josh McDaniels. Everything said in the OP has been said by someone else already, there is nothing new.
It has nothing to do with love/hate McDaniels, even though that's the topic of the thread. If it was vice-versa, it'd still apply because it's fake. Similar to the fake pro-McDaniels thread made by Arapho a week or two ago.
It's probably Lex or Nature Boy.
It mght be, but it doesn't change the fact that we routinely flame new members these days. Last year, we had very respectful members of the opposing team come in to discuss an upcoming game, not to talk smack, and it was us that started the smack and flaming.
Yes, it could be a former member. It could be a Patriot fan that came here to stir things up, and is posting a link on their message board for Pat's fans to watch and enjoy the reactions.
It 'could' be, but the only thing we know for sure is that some of our responses, just like many of our responses to other new posters, or opposing fans that visit during the season, show that the Broncos' fans ARE NOT the classiest in the NFL, and I don't like that. I think that Broncos fans, are and should be, the classiest in the NFL.
That's just me, everyone has their own opinion on the matter. Clearly, many people think being caustic and flaming others is 'classy'. Who knows.
/SoapboxSpeech
T.K.O.
05-15-2010, 12:05 PM
well if we dont win the "classiest fans in the nfl" award....at least we wont be honored with "most gullible" either;)
well if we dont win the "classiest fans in the nfl" award....at least we wont be honored with "most gullible" either;)
Are they really mutually exclusive? :confused:
I think there are plenty of classless gullible people, and plenty of classy people that are not at all gullible. I don't think one has anything to do with the other.
As mentioned a few posts back, if you disagree with the OP or any other post, then refut it with your own facts/opinions, rather than attacking the poster, whether it's a new or existing poster.
Anyway, just my two Euro cents, which aren't worth nearly as much as three months ago...
jhildebrand
05-15-2010, 12:15 PM
It mght be, but it doesn't change the fact that we routinely flame new members these days.
Well said. :salute:
It 'could' be, but the only thing we know for sure is that some of our responses, just like many of our responses to other new posters, or opposing fans that visit during the season, show that the Broncos' fans ARE NOT the classiest in the NFL, and I don't like that. I think that Broncos fans, are and should be, the classiest in the NFL.
Not to mention these boards. I believe these are the best boards of any topic! I certainly hope to keep it that way. The easiest thing for anybody to do is argue/attack the post not the poster. It just seems insults and patronization are the first reaction all too often.
That's just me, everyone has their own opinion on the matter. Clearly, many people think being caustic and flaming others is 'classy'. Who knows.
/SoapboxSpeech
Soapbox well used.
Lonestar
05-15-2010, 12:18 PM
Much has been made about how the tradees value has been deminshed
IIRC when a 5 time pro bowl QB gets traded for 4 th rounder IIRC that kind of blows holes into the trade value chart.
Yet some how Josh managed to get a couple of 2's for marshall and the yar before e 1's a third and a Starting QB for cutler and a 5th.
Sorry not sure how much more they would have been worth than what we got.
I'd rather be pro Josh than anti ev erything he has done so far with just less than 15 months in the saddle.
I suspect he will suceed rather well here.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums
Bosco
05-15-2010, 03:27 PM
I'm sure he was so overwhelmed by the warm welcome that we gave him that he's just a bit overwhelmed and trying to get hold of his emotions.... :sarcasm:
In terms of BroncosForums and Broncos fans, there is nothing I am more ashamed of then the way new posters, some times from opposing teams, are often treated. We have seen it many times with fans from other teams that stop in on game day, not to talk trash, but to try and have a decent discussion with opposing fans (as I have done by going to other team's forums), and we have a decent contingent of posters that just flame them when they do it.
That's what they should expect to get when they trot out such brain-dead takes. If they want to bring some well thought out, reasonable takes, then they'll be much more accepted by the masses.
Tempus Fugit
05-15-2010, 03:47 PM
Yes, he said that. He also said that teams wouldn't know what to prepare for on Sunday, because like when in New England, if the watched the last 5 weeks of Broncos game tape, they would see five completely different offenses and not know which one to prepare for.
We watched the games last year. Were all those bubble screens from week to week really so confusing that opposing teams didn't know how to prepare?
Coaches say a lot of things, some of it they actually even believe, but that doesn't make it true.
Posters say a lot of things, some of it they actually even believe, but that doesn't make it true either. Things like claiming the offense is only running 6 players, or that somehow running bubble screens makes an offense predictable even as the timing of those plays, and the reason for them, is being ignored.
This one gave me a chuckle. There was a few weeks following the Cutler debacle where McDaniels was pretty soundly bashed, which he deserved for how things went down, forgetting about whether we are better off without Cutler. However, after that the Fan Police united and this board could easily have been renamed to McDanilesIsGod.com a year ago, because the vocal minority blindly defends him and shouts down any criticism. That criticism doesn't have to come from an opposing fan, like in this thread, but the response from the fan police is the same.
This one gives me a chuckle, too. McDaniels has been getting bashed from just about day one. He was unfairly and undeservedly bashed over the Cutler incident, yet here you are stating that such bashing was deserved as if you're speaking facts. You're not. It's just an opinion, and it's a biased opinion based upon emotion rather than facts.
As for the "fan police", this board breaks down like almost every sports board in the country. On any divisive issue, there are two extreme sides and a third group that takes up the middle ground. Both extreme sides swab the rumps of those who agree with them and pummel those they disagree with. Both extreme sides complain they are unfairly attacked. Both sides eventually end up pissing off the people in the middle, which radicalizes the issue. People become hyper-sensitive and it takes less and less to set them off.
I'm sure he was so overwhelmed by the warm welcome that we gave him that he's just a bit overwhelmed and trying to get hold of his emotions.... :sarcasm:
It was a terrible post, and a hatchet job replete with over-the-top slants and outright lies. I'm not sure why you'd expect the poster to be tossed bouquets. What's sad is that the anti-McDaniels crowd, including those who pretend not to be even as they bash him repeatedly, are actually defending the post as if it had value as something more than shit stirring.
In terms of BroncosForums and Broncos fans, there is nothing I am more ashamed of then the way new posters, some times from opposing teams, are often treated. We have seen it many times with fans from other teams that stop in on game day, not to talk trash, but to try and have a decent discussion with opposing fans (as I have done by going to other team's forums), and we have a decent contingent of posters that just flame them when they do it.
That may, or may not, be true, but it has nothing to do with this thread. This wasn't a game day post, and it clearly wasn't someone just trying to have a decent discussion.
T.K.O.
05-15-2010, 03:59 PM
^ "nailed it !":salute:
Posters say a lot of things, some of it they actually even believe, but that doesn't make it true either. Things like claiming the offense is only running 6 players, or that somehow running bubble screens makes an offense predictable even as the timing of those plays, and the reason for them, is being ignored.
Well, I have never seen someone claim that a team played with 6 players. Is that even legal? An offensive line and QB? Seems like that would lead to an illegal formation or something.
No, running bubble screens in and of itself doesn't make an offense predictable. Running them over and over, and running nothing but short passes, both makes the offense predictable and allows opposing defenses to compress up against the LOS, making creating congestion and making it that much harder for receivers to get separation.
This one gives me a chuckle, too. McDaniels has been getting bashed from just about day one. He was unfairly and undeservedly bashed over the Cutler incident, yet here you are stating that such bashing was deserved as if you're speaking facts. You're not. It's just an opinion, and it's a biased opinion based upon emotion rather than facts.
Yes, just like your post is 'opinion'. Isn't that what a message board is, a bunch of people posting their opinions? :confused:
Your opinion about my opinion is clearly biased, as this post and most of your other posts show. McDaniels was roundly criticized by the NFL talking heads, media and ex-players, coaches and GMs. In part, it was due to the trade itself, but also in large part it had to do with the way he handled the situation.
Regardless, you are entitled to your 'opinion' that he did nothing wrong.
As for the "fan police", this board breaks down like almost every sports board in the country. On any divisive issue, there are two extreme sides and a third group that takes up the middle ground. Both extreme sides swab the rumps of those who agree with them and pummel those they disagree with. Both extreme sides complain they are unfairly attacked. Both sides eventually end up pissing off the people in the middle, which radicalizes the issue. People become hyper-sensitive and it takes less and less to set them off.
Yes, most boards have a breakdown, and many of them have one side that is more virulent than the other. In this case, the fan police, and McDaniels can do no wrong crowd, are the ones that jump on and try and quell any opinions out of line with their own.
It was a terrible post, and a hatchet job replete with over-the-top slants and outright lies. I'm not sure why you'd expect the poster to be tossed bouquets. What's sad is that the anti-McDaniels crowd, including those who pretend not to be even as they bash him repeatedly, are actually defending the post as if it had value as something more than shit stirring.
I guess I missed anyone defending the post or saying it had value. I'll go back and see what you are talking about. That is a completely different situation than following the BroncosForums mantra of "focus on the post, not the poster."
That may, or may not, be true, but it has nothing to do with this thread. This wasn't a game day post, and it clearly wasn't someone just trying to have a decent discussion.
It has everything to do with this thread, because it's the usual suspects that attack a Giants fan that stops by to say hi, slams a new poster because he's a Tebow fan, or finds any other reason to flame a new poster.
It takes NO intellect to flame a poster because he's a Pat's fan, or a Tebow fan or a Saint's fan or whatever, and it adds nothing to this community. If you don't agree with the content of the post refute it with fact or opinion.
silkamilkamonico
05-15-2010, 07:30 PM
This one gave me a chuckle. There was a few weeks following the Cutler debacle where McDaniels was pretty soundly bashed, which he deserved for how things went down, forgetting about whether we are better off without Cutler. However, after that the Fan Police united and this board could easily have been renamed to McDanilesIsGod.com a year ago, because the vocal minority blindly defends him and shouts down any criticism. That criticism doesn't have to come from an opposing fan, like in this thread, but the response from the fan police is the same.
Meh. If I had time, like, hours, I would go bump the countless McDaniels bashing threads that were being noted for months on end after McDaniels was hired. I even posted at one time in a thread how the first 2 pages were nothing but trashing mcdaniels threads, and the worst thing about it was the mods in this place didn;t even bother merging any of those threads.
Like we need 2 pages of threads on nothing but one topic, bashing the new head coach for trading away a bunch of losers on the team.
I like to see the majority of Denver fans here are exceptable of mediocrity, and not wanting to let go of those below .500 "leaders" of this team.
GGMoogly
05-15-2010, 08:04 PM
I liked Shanahan a LOT. I think he's a great coach. But when he was fired, my reaction was...:bored: indifferent. Coaches, like baseball managers are hired to be fired. C'est la vie. When McD took over, I was surprised, but hey, wtf, why not? But when he got rid of Cutler, I did get a tad upset (though IMHO, Bowlen had a bigger - negative - role in this and the Marshall's fiasco than is being acknowledged). Getting rid of a pro bowler instead of selling him on the new regime was a sin in my book. I remained upset all last year (not that I lost any real sleep over it.)
But with the arrival of our next HOF'er, TT, I'm happy again :elefant: I hope McD really is a great QB coach and refines Tebow's skills. It goes without saying I want that Lombardi just as bad as everyone else.
And when the time comes that McD is fired, my reaction will be...:bored:
Tempus Fugit
05-15-2010, 08:40 PM
Well, I have never seen someone claim that a team played with 6 players. Is that even legal? An offensive line and QB? Seems like that would lead to an illegal formation or something.
The word originally used was "plays", as I'm sure you know, and I simply mis-typed. However, it's great to see you lead off your post with a snarky response after you've spent time complaining about the way people are responding to posts. That's how to lead by example! :2thumbs:
No, running bubble screens in and of itself doesn't make an offense predictable. Running them over and over, and running nothing but short passes, both makes the offense predictable and allows opposing defenses to compress up against the LOS, making creating congestion and making it that much harder for receivers to get separation.
Actually, anyone who's ever played or coached the game can tell you just how wrong you are. It's not the routes, or the plays alone that determine predictability, which was what I was trying to get across to you. Formations, down & distance, personnel, etc.... all those things are changes which impact so-called predictability, whether or not the fans even realize it. The general fan just sees a run off of left tackle, for example, but someone who's watching the game more closely sees that the tight end was different, the guard pulled the second time but not the first, the play was run off of motion the first time, etc....
Yes, just like your post is 'opinion'. Isn't that what a message board is, a bunch of people posting their opinions? :confused:
Yes, but you're the one bitching about the opinions of those who responded to the O.P., so couching your opinion as fact made you no better than the O.P. or the respondents you're complaining about.
Your opinion about my opinion is clearly biased, as this post and most of your other posts show. McDaniels was roundly criticized by the NFL talking heads, media and ex-players, coaches and GMs. In part, it was due to the trade itself, but also in large part it had to do with the way he handled the situation.
Actually, while all opinions have the inherent bias of being an individual's opinion, my 'bias' when it comes to sports analysis has essentially nothing to do with emotion. I'm simply not wired that way, and I never really have been. I'm the cold, heartless ******* who would tear down my own mother if I thought she screwed up, regardless of whether or not she was on my team. It used to piss off my coaches, as a matter of fact, since I would give my honest opinion to teammates and coaches, whether or not it was the answer they wanted to hear.
Regardless, you are entitled to your 'opinion' that he did nothing wrong.
That would be great if I were of the opinion that McDaniels did nothing wrong. I'm not. I'm of the 'opinion' that the evidence shows that McDaniels was probably truthful, if incomplete, in his statements while Cutler lied his ass off, and I hold that 'opinion' based upon the clear facts as opposed to basing it upon some opinionated dissection of who actually made phone calls to whom. I sincerely doubt that anyone was 100% flawless in how things were handled.
Yes, most boards have a breakdown, and many of them have one side that is more virulent than the other. In this case, the fan police, and McDaniels can do no wrong crowd, are the ones that jump on and try and quell any opinions out of line with their own.
It's not the "fan police" that turn seemingly every thread into an anti-McDaniels thread, just as it's not the McHaters that turn seemingly every thread into a pro-McDaniels thread. Both extremes are doing the same things, they're just doing them from different points of view. Also, it should be noted that calling certain people, even unnamed people, "fan police" is focusing on the posters, not the posts.
I guess I missed anyone defending the post or saying it had value. I'll go back and see what you are talking about. That is a completely different situation than following the BroncosForums mantra of "focus on the post, not the poster."
Cool. While you're at it, you can re-read my post, realize that my point was that this thread had broken down along the Pro/Anti McDaniels lines as opposed to being about something of value, yet again, and realize that you yourself frequently focus on the poster rather the post.
It has everything to do with this thread, because it's the usual suspects that attack a Giants fan that stops by to say hi, slams a new poster because he's a Tebow fan, or finds any other reason to flame a new poster.
What you posted, in the part we're discussing right here, had nothing, at all, to do with this thread. Again, and to repeat:
This wasn't a game day post, and it clearly wasn't someone just trying to have a decent discussion.
It takes NO intellect to flame a poster because he's a Pat's fan, or a Tebow fan or a Saint's fan or whatever,
I agree.
and it adds nothing to this community.
I disagree, because I think it adds color under the right circumstances, but I don't make the rules here, and I can certainly appreciate your point of view on this issue.
If you don't agree with the content of the post refute it with fact or opinion.
When someone's first post on a site is a troll post, commenting upon the content is really just an irrelevancy which might lead to discussion among the other posters, but isn't likely to lead to anything but hostility from the O.P.. That person is trolling, not looking to debate the meaning of color in The Great Gatsby. As a matter of fact, that's why a lot of sites have post count minimums before people can start threads, since fewer people are likely to stick around for, say, 100 posts just to start trolling.
jhildebrand
05-15-2010, 09:14 PM
The Broncos were beyond predictable when it came to playcalling especially the second half of the season.
For some reason, the offense declined in almost every major statistical category yet the first order of business was "mutually resigning" a coach that improved his unit across the board in every category but one. :confused: I wonder why the OC wasn't "mutually resigned" nor the play caller. :lol:
silkamilkamonico
05-15-2010, 09:21 PM
The Broncos were beyond predictable when it came to playcalling especially the second half of the season.
For some reason, the offense declined in almost every major statistical category yet the first order of business was "mutually resigning" a coach that improved his unit across the board in every category but one. :confused: I wonder why the OC wasn't "mutually resigned" nor the play caller. :lol:
Coicidentally, the offense went to garbage right after Ryan Harris got hurt, and the olines inability to form a pocket was their downfall.
It was like watching Shanahan's offense try and play the power physical teams all over again.
Even Jay "God" Culter struggled in Chicago without an oline this year.
I take posters to the woodshed that deserve it...whether they are old posters, new posters, or posters from opposing teams. If you spout nonsense or drivel I will let my opinion be known.
The word originally used was "plays", as I'm sure you know, and I simply mis-typed. However, it's great to see you lead off your post with a snarky response after you've spent time complaining about the way people are responding to posts. That's how to lead by example! :2thumbs:
Hey, I didn't know you mistyped it. I didn't compare your post to the original. Instead, I was responding to what has become one of your favorite past times, which is taking digs at me. Not sure what your major malfunction is, but if you want to just man up and tell me how or when you think I pissed in your cherios, we can avoid the constant barb posts you are making. PM me or open, your call.
arapaho2
05-15-2010, 11:53 PM
i can't believe anyone is falling for this....again?
there is no way this is not a former(likely banned)member.
it's an obvious attempt to stir up sh..
has anyone seen arapaho2 today?:confused:
mcD has alot more players (tom brady included) who have publicly stated how much they like the guy and respect his abilities than those who do not.
this is a piece of trash 1st post ....no matter how you slice it:tsk:
its a piece of trash first post?....why because it doesnt fit into your childish stance that if it doesnt paint mcd in a glowing manner...then its crap
well let me tell you a little something about the world sonny...it dont always follow your beliefs...sometimes others may have an opinion, that bears some truth and insights
if anything its point is well deserved and has a concrete foundation already building here...his ego does in fact lead to alienation of key personal...his playcalling does leave something to be desired and is almost totaly predictable at times...
how often did we complain about the overly used bubble screens...how about playing a rookie rb that a times was more of a hinderance than a help..when we had bigger backs...faster backs..and backs makeing more happen behind the running game..yet mcd refused to play them
mcd had a 2nd yr wr in royal that was a huge impact in 08...and was totaly ignored....you all talk about team philosophy he desires, that he only wants solid team oriented players...where was that team philosophy when he cut our long time LS..a solid, who never uttered a complaint, never a issue, never missed a snap..the ultimate team player..so he could bring in a former patriot and make him the hghest paid LS in the game...what happened then?
the guy gives his opinion...if it was a " oh how we miss the brilliance of mcd" you'd be voteing this the worlds best first post
arapaho2
05-16-2010, 12:09 AM
Much has been made about how the tradees value has been deminshed
IIRC when a 5 time pro bowl QB gets traded for 4 th rounder IIRC that kind of blows holes into the trade value chart.
Yet some how Josh managed to get a couple of 2's for marshall and the yar before e 1's a third and a Starting QB for cutler and a 5th.
Sorry not sure how much more they would have been worth than what we got.
I'd rather be pro Josh than anti ev erything he has done so far with just less than 15 months in the saddle.
I suspect he will suceed rather well here.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums
lots of still good probowl players are traded cheap or cut...jamall williams ring a bell?
that in no way justifies passing on your targeted franchis qb at 24# leaving 3 additional picks you got for trading down, plus your original #2 to get a wr and fill out the oline....only to then trade the equivelent of the 21st pick to get him at 25#
whats more important to a team..wr or franchise qb?..clearly a wr isnt the greatest need or you wouldnt trade your 25 yr old two time probowl wr...clearly as a orginization if you truely believe you do not have the qb of the future on the roster..and your sitting at 24 with the bills as the mcd crew say..moving to trade up and get tebow..then you snag a franchise qb before you even thing about wr
Bosco
05-16-2010, 01:36 AM
For some reason, the offense declined in almost every major statistical category yet the first order of business was "mutually resigning" a coach that improved his unit across the board in every category but one.
I hope the quotation marks is your way of acknowledging the unethical behavior of both Nolan and the Dolphins.
iometimes others may have an opinion, that bears some truth and insights
Which was definitely not the case here.
I hope the quotation marks is your way of acknowledging the unethical behavior of both Nolan and the Dolphins.
How so? This is the first I have heard of this.
Bosco
05-16-2010, 01:48 AM
lots of still good probowl players are traded cheap or cut...jamall williams ring a bell?
that in no way justifies passing on your targeted franchis qb at 24# leaving 3 additional picks you got for trading down, plus your original #2 to get a wr and fill out the oline....only to then trade the equivelent of the 21st pick to get him at 25#
whats more important to a team..wr or franchise qb?..clearly a wr isnt the greatest need or you wouldnt trade your 25 yr old two time probowl wr...clearly as a orginization if you truely believe you do not have the qb of the future on the roster..and your sitting at 24 with the bills as the mcd crew say..moving to trade up and get tebow..then you snag a franchise qb before you even thing about wr
Demaryius Thomas was the only one of the elite WR prospects who fit the X role in McD's offense, which is why we drafted him.
silkamilkamonico
05-16-2010, 01:57 AM
This is way off topic and I apologize, but what does an "X" WR exactly mean anyways?
Bosco
05-16-2010, 02:35 AM
This is way off topic and I apologize, but what does an "X" WR exactly mean anyways?
Basically, the #1 receiver. Depending on the scheme and nomenclature, the secondary receiver, tight end and/or 3rd receiver can be either the "Y" or "Z" receiver, but the #1 is always the "X" receiver. In West Coast offenses the #2 receiver is usually the "Y" receiver and the "Z" receiver is either the tight end or 3rd receiver depending on the the formation. With McDaniels, the "Z" receiver is the #2 WR although he runs a lot of the same routes as, and is generally converted from, the prototypical slot receiver. The "Y" receiver is the #3 receiver who generally runs alot of intermediate routes.
In McDaniel's offense, the "X" receiver's role is to get deep and stretch the defense vertically while being tall and physical enough to make catches even with double coverage. For this role, you need a tall, fast receiver who is reasonably strong. We saw Randy Moss play this role to perfection in New England, and Demaryius Thomas has that same skillset. Last year we had no true X receiver because Marshall wasn't fast enough and Royal wasn't big enough, which is what I believe led to a lot of our offensive struggles.
Basically, our offense will mirror the 2007 Patriots like this.
X receiver: Randy Moss = Demaryius Thomas
Z receiver: Wes Welker = Eddie Royal
Y receiver: Jabar Gaffney = Jabar Gaffney, although likely replaced by Eric Decker in 2011, or 2012 at the latest.
T.K.O.
05-16-2010, 09:55 AM
How so? This is the first I have heard of this.
the way i understand it...mcD heard rumblings that nolan wanted to go to miami (granted it was after they had discussed how the D was to be run) and mcD asked nolan if he wanted to stay in denver or take a job in miami.nolan chose miami and mcD obliged.within 24 hours of his release nolan had a signed deal with miami.which would indicate that he had been in negotiations with miami while still under contract with the broncos.
that would be the issue you are questioning i believe it's called "tampering" though the nfl seems to turn a blind eye as long as both parties are happy with the outcome
BroncoJoe
05-16-2010, 09:59 AM
the way i understand it...mcD heard rumblings that nolan wanted to go to miami (granted it was after they had discussed how the D was to be run) and mcD asked nolan if he wanted to stay in denver or take a job in miami.nolan chose miami and mcD obliged.within 24 hours of his release nolan had a signed deal with miami.which would indicate that he had been in negotiations with miami while still under contract with the broncos.
that would be the issue you are questioning i believe
That whole scenario reeked of collusion.
Elevation inc
05-16-2010, 10:11 AM
I am a longtime Patriots fan with a perspective on McDaniels, from watching almost every game since 1994. Many adore "McKid" in New England for all the points scored, but a significant fraction of fans there (including myself) were happy to see him go. I'm glad to see that so much of Broncos nation (here and at firejoshmcdaniels.com and joshmcdanielssucks.com sites) have picked up on the fact that McKid is arrogant, has people skill problems, doesn’t adjust, and is in over his head. I honestly feel sorry that he's your coach. I have a lot of respect for Broncos fans and their franchise (I used to live in Denver for several years), and know how tough your team always played us (more like killed us!). There is a chance McKid could do well eventually, like Belichick, in his second HC job, but I think he's going to be a disaster for you guys in his first HC job.
Even as a coordinator with New England, he would run the same half dozen predictable plays, over and over, then always get burned in playoffs against more experienced defensive coordinators. In my estimation, McKid is as stubbornly flawed an offensive play-caller as Mike Martz, and less talented as an overall coach IMO. Then there's his ego. In his one year in Denver, he already pushed out (alienated) key talents like Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, Scheffler, and Mike Nolan, all while talking out of both sides of his mouth. The common denominator in all of these spats was McDaniels. The funny thing is, he keeps trying to copy what he thinks Bill Belichick would do, but he forgets that Belichick himself made things work with risky malcontents like Corey Dillon and Randy Moss.
It's more his ego at play here than anything, and trust me has a massive ego. His first year as coordinator, Tom Brady refused to speak to him for 3 weeks (!!) during the regular season. It was reported that at half-time of the 2007 Superbowl, Brady and others were imploring McDaniels to make some adjustments, but he flipped out, told them to shut up, and that they weren't changing anything. In 2008 McDaniels was seen at halftime yelling in Belichick's ear while they walked across the field, with Belichick doing his best to ignore him and get to the locker room. It was his ego that vastly overpaid to draft Tebow. The truth is that it's really Belichick's QB school that knows how to produce QB's out of low draft picks (Brady, Cassel, and possibly Brian Hoyer), not McDaniels (or Charlie Weiss, for that matter). If it weren't about ego and McDaniels wanted to use his alleged competitive advantage in developing QB's, he would develop a low draft pick QB into a good one, not overpay for one.
Now off of coaching and onto drafting and player evaluation... McDaniels has made some pretty good trades in Denver, getting good value for the players he traded away. The problem is he has zero eye for talent. The Pats’ drafts from 2005-2008 weren’t that great, arguably the league's worst. However, I would argue that a lot of those drafts were f’d up by Josh McDaniels. Belichick likes to send his coordinators in the off-season to check out draft prospects, for their input. Key coordinators like Charlie Weiss and Romeo Crennel left after 2004, and their experience and input in seeing prospects during the draft process has been sorely missed.
Newspapers in Boston reported that Josh McKid personally scouted and pushed for WR Chad Jackson, QB Kevin O’Connell, RB Laurence Maroney, TE Garrett Mills, TE Dave Thomas, etc, all expensive (bust) draft picks. It’s clear Belichick quickly realized McDaniels had zero eye for talent, which is why Belichick ignored McDaniels' draft workouts in 2007 and instead traded for offensive players like Moss and Welker. Meanwhile, the defense was ignored for too long (due to McDaniels' urging for more offensive players), and the Pats began drafting very differently from the blue collar, non-skill-position players they picked high from 2001-2004. You can see that with McKid now in Denver and Pioli in KC, Belichick’s true style is back the past two drafts focusing on defensive studs and in the trenches. As an aside: Somehow the Pats started with 4 picks in the first 3 rounds, and ended up with 5 players PLUS a high Carolina 2nd rounder next year!
Anyways, there's my two cents. It's uneasy watching from afar what McDaniels is doing to your franchise, I'd rather win against a formidable opponent, but at the same time, maybe it was Belichick's plan all along to send a trojan horse over to his toughest opponent (sorry, I know poor/painful joke)!!
IM sure it wasnt his plan to lose to MCD with orton as our QB:coffee:...get a clue....because thats what actually happened last year...so if his plan was to send MCD to a rival who belly couldnt beat...it backfired miserably since we handled New england just fine last year.....
the way i understand it...mcD heard rumblings that nolan wanted to go to miami (granted it was after they had discussed how the D was to be run) and mcD asked nolan if he wanted to stay in denver or take a job in miami.nolan chose miami and mcD obliged.within 24 hours of his release nolan had a signed deal with miami.which would indicate that he had been in negotiations with miami while still under contract with the broncos.
that would be the issue you are questioning i believe it's called "tampering" though the nfl seems to turn a blind eye as long as both parties are happy with the outcome
Unfortunately, like everything else that has gone down, we don't know how many of the real facts we know.
Everything I have read to date indicates all of this happened after McDaniels had the disagreement about the defense where McDaniels supposedly told Nolan that they would not be blitzing as much this season. Essentially, telling Nolan he can't run 'his' scheme anymore. Then others, on here and in the press, have speculated that Nolan wanted Nolan out because he thought he was going to get Peas (think that's his name) to replace Nolan.
It seems that once again we have a smattering of facts and just assume that everyone but McDaniels has done something sinister or wrong. In my book, that's connecting a whole lot of dots without many hard facts to back it up.
T.K.O.
05-16-2010, 10:25 AM
Nolan’s jump from Denver to Miami clarified
Posted: January 19th, 2010 | Steve Wyche | Tags: Denver Broncos, Josh McDaniels, Miami Dolphins, Mike Nolan
With speculation surrounding why Mike Nolan decided to leave the Broncos for a lateral move to become the Dolphins’ defensive coordinator, here’s some clarity from what I’ve learned after speaking to sources close to the situation:
There is no acrimony between Nolan and Broncos coach Josh McDaniels. The Dolphins sent the Broncos a written request to interview Nolan. McDaniels approached Nolan with the request and, in a nutshell, asked him if he’d rather be in Miami or Denver. Nolan said he would like to interview with the Dolphins. McDaniels then granted Nolan permission and wished him well.
The Broncos have allowed their assistants to interview for jobs with other teams this offseason, taking the position that if a coach has an opportunity for a promotion, it wouldn’t stand in the way. That it did the same for Nolan to make a lateral move was somewhat interesting.
Possibly factoring into Nolan’s decision, his contract with the Broncos supposedly was set to expire after next season, as will a lot of the team’s assistant coaches’ deals. With the possibility of a work stoppage, Nolan foresaw being able to negotiate a contract that would pay him through a lockout with the Dolphins, should the NFL and the NFL Players Association not be able to finalize a labor deal before the 2011 season.
With a deal coming together so quickly with the Dolphins –- one day after Nolan split from Denver –- parameters of a deal had to have been in place before or shortly after he left the Broncos.
Elevation inc
05-16-2010, 10:31 AM
Unfortunately, like everything else that has gone down, we don't know how many of the real facts we know.
Everything I have read to date indicates all of this happened after McDaniels had the disagreement about the defense where McDaniels supposedly told Nolan that they would not be blitzing as much this season. Essentially, telling Nolan he can't run 'his' scheme anymore. Then others, on here and in the press, have speculated that Nolan wanted Nolan out because he thought he was going to get Peas (think that's his name) to replace Nolan.
It seems that once again we have a smattering of facts and just assume that everyone but McDaniels has done something sinister or wrong. In my book, that's connecting a whole lot of dots without many hard facts to back it up.
actually i belive we will be blitzing alot more this year, MCd's recent comments were attack attack attack, nolan's defense over the years tend to start out fast and degrade as the season goes on.....his attacking become less infrequent as he tries to play it safe.....which he did the second half here in a big way...i know of numerous times we sat back with only a 3 man rush, when we should have blitzed...and it bit us hard
i belive there difference stem from nolan playing too safe in games like philly, KC and indy.....not because he blitzed to much this year.....if you go over many of our games we actually didnt have that many blitzes the second half of the season....nolan was horrible at calling run blitzes also, and that also is a reason i felt MCD was ready for a change, plus i belive there was pride in it for nolan who had been in the league for years. I belive both just felt better to do there own things in different locations...i dont think there was any forcing..or crazy conspiracy...i just think MCD wants more attack, and nolan belives playing it safe is better....
I belive we will be down teams throats next year.....we shall see if it works.....
jhildebrand
05-16-2010, 12:39 PM
Coicidentally, the offense went to garbage right after Ryan Harris got hurt, and the olines inability to form a pocket was their downfall.
It was like watching Shanahan's offense try and play the power physical teams all over again.
Even Jay "God" Culter struggled in Chicago without an oline this year.
The offense was inept/garbage almost all season! By almost every account the 6-0 start was due entirely to the Defense.
Bosco
05-16-2010, 03:15 PM
Unfortunately, like everything else that has gone down, we don't know how many of the real facts we know. Not true. The facts are there, you just have to look for them, which isn't real hard considering we have Adam Schefter and Peter King out there.
Everything I have read to date indicates all of this happened after McDaniels had the disagreement about the defense where McDaniels supposedly told Nolan that they would not be blitzing as much this season. Essentially, telling Nolan he can't run 'his' scheme anymore. Can't be true, and for two reasons.
1) Josh made Nolan scrap his scheme for the Patriots more aggressive scheme almost immediately after he was hired.
2) Nolan's defense has never been known an aggressive, blitzing type.
Then others, on here and in the press, have speculated that Nolan wanted Nolan out because he thought he was going to get Peas (think that's his name) to replace Nolan. No real truth to this one either considering we never even brought in Pees for a formal interview.
silkamilkamonico
05-16-2010, 06:53 PM
The offense was inept/garbage almost all season! By almost every account the 6-0 start was due entirely to the Defense.
http://i42.tinypic.com/w6w1ll.gif
Hardly.
Through the first 6 games, our passing game was 124-194, 9TD/1INT, 1465 yards. Our running game was 149-708, 4.8 ypc, and 2 TD's.
The only thing we weren't doing was scoring rushing TD's (also 3rd down conversions), which was something we we're bad at under the Shanahan/Cutler era . We were also running the clock out the entire 4th quarter for 3 of the 6 games.
Not only we were incredibly more efficient on offense through the first 6 games this year in comparison to last year under Shanahan with the "vaunted explosive offense", but we had considerably less drives with scoring intentions, and averaged 22.2 points per game compared to 27.7 points per game last year. And not only could I argue we had less offensive drives a game, but I could also argue we had considerably less drives per game where we we're actually trying to score.
I'm sorry, I understand we won those games because of our strong defense, but to say the offense was "inept/garbage" during those games, is utter ignorance.
Not true. The facts are there, you just have to look for them, which isn't real hard considering we have Adam Schefter and Peter King out there.
Ok, fair enough, we can rely on Schefter.
No real truth to this one either considering we never even brought in Pees for a formal interview.
Here's a Tweet (http://twitter.com/Adam_Schefter/status/7925615177) from Adam Schefter:
Broncos already are discussing former Patriots DC Dean Pees, who worked with Denver head coach Josh McDaniels in New England.
See, it's really easy to pick and choose which 'facts' you want to ignore or acknowledge, but this was my whole point. We don't really know what was happening behind the scenes and may never know.
Broncolingus
05-16-2010, 07:54 PM
To many...this is all that can be seen:
1) Everything bad that happened to Denver last year was all McD's fault...and,
2) Anything good that happened to Denver last year had nothing to do with McD.
:tsk:
To many...this is all that can be seen:
1) Everything bad that happened to Denver last year was all McD's fault...and,
2) Anything good that happened to Denver last year had nothing to do with McD.
:tsk:
Yes, and to many this is all that can be seen:
1) Everything good that happened to Denver last year was all due to McD...and,
2) Anything bad that happened to Denver last year had nothing to do with McD.
As long as so many people continue to feel it's an either/or, then these threads are just going to keep spiraling down hill or going in circles.
McDaniels has done some good things in his short time in Denver and he has made some mistakes in his short time in Denver. I really don't understand why we have one contingent that can't admit he did anything good and another contingent that can't admit he made any mistakes.
Denver Native (Carol)
05-16-2010, 08:39 PM
Yes, and to many this is all that can be seen:
1) Everything good that happened to Denver last year was all due to McD...and,
2) Anything bad that happened to Denver last year had nothing to do with McD.
As long as so many people continue to feel it's an either/or, then these threads are just going to keep spiraling down hill or going in circles.
McDaniels has done some good things in his short time in Denver and he has made some mistakes in his short time in Denver. I really don't understand why we have one contingent that can't admit he did anything good and another contingent that can't admit he made any mistakes.
This in itself is the problem. There are some who do not like Coach McD, so therefore, will never admit that he did anything good. Also, there are some who do not feel that Coach McD made some mistakes, but what he did was for the good of the team. If you do not believe that he did anything good, or if you feel that he did not make mistakes, and that is honestly the way you feel, you will always have two sides.
LoyalSoldier
05-16-2010, 08:47 PM
At thing point it is hard to tell how much was McD and how much was not. It is too small of a sample period to know.
TXBRONC
05-16-2010, 09:15 PM
This in itself is the problem. There are some who do not like Coach McD, so therefore, will never admit that he did anything good. Also, there are some who do not feel that Coach McD made some mistakes, but what he did was for the good of the team. If you do not believe that he did anything good, or if you feel that he did not make mistakes, and that is honestly the way you feel, you will always have two sides.
That's exactly it. It is alright to say McDaniels did some good things. The way he ran camp and 6-0 start are to his credit because he is the head coach. But there are fair criticism of him as well.
arapaho2
05-16-2010, 09:37 PM
Nolan’s jump from Denver to Miami clarified
Posted: January 19th, 2010 | Steve Wyche | Tags: Denver Broncos, Josh McDaniels, Miami Dolphins, Mike Nolan
With speculation surrounding why Mike Nolan decided to leave the Broncos for a lateral move to become the Dolphins’ defensive coordinator, here’s some clarity from what I’ve learned after speaking to sources close to the situation:
There is no acrimony between Nolan and Broncos coach Josh McDaniels. The Dolphins sent the Broncos a written request to interview Nolan. McDaniels approached Nolan with the request and, in a nutshell, asked him if he’d rather be in Miami or Denver. Nolan said he would like to interview with the Dolphins. McDaniels then granted Nolan permission and wished him well.
The Broncos have allowed their assistants to interview for jobs with other teams this offseason, taking the position that if a coach has an opportunity for a promotion, it wouldn’t stand in the way. That it did the same for Nolan to make a lateral move was somewhat interesting.
Possibly factoring into Nolan’s decision, his contract with the Broncos supposedly was set to expire after next season, as will a lot of the team’s assistant coaches’ deals. With the possibility of a work stoppage, Nolan foresaw being able to negotiate a contract that would pay him through a lockout with the Dolphins, should the NFL and the NFL Players Association not be able to finalize a labor deal before the 2011 season.
With a deal coming together so quickly with the Dolphins –- one day after Nolan split from Denver –- parameters of a deal had to have been in place before or shortly after he left the Broncos.
sobasicaly its like this
MCD: coach nolan, you can stay here..run the defense THE WAY I WANT AND SAY you should....or go to miami where you'll have full control over the defense
nolan: geee thats a tuffy....ahhh well, i'll send a guy for my things..so long josh
Denver Native (Carol)
05-16-2010, 09:45 PM
sobasicaly its like this
MCD: coach nolan, you can stay here..run the defense THE WAY I WANT AND SAY you should....or go to miami where you'll have full control over the defense
nolan: geee thats a tuffy....ahhh well, i'll send a guy for my things..so long josh
Or for those who do not wear I hate Coach McD glasses, more than likely it was this:
Possibly factoring into Nolan’s decision, his contract with the Broncos supposedly was set to expire after next season, as will a lot of the team’s assistant coaches’ deals. With the possibility of a work stoppage, Nolan foresaw being able to negotiate a contract that would pay him through a lockout with the Dolphins, should the NFL and the NFL Players Association not be able to finalize a labor deal before the 2011 season.
Yes, and to many this is all that can be seen:
1) Everything good that happened to Denver last year was all due to McD...and,
2) Anything bad that happened to Denver last year had nothing to do with McD.
As long as so many people continue to feel it's an either/or, then these threads are just going to keep spiraling down hill or going in circles.
McDaniels has done some good things in his short time in Denver and he has made some mistakes in his short time in Denver. I really don't understand why we have one contingent that can't admit he did anything good and another contingent that can't admit he made any mistakes.
Because he was a perfect coach last year and didn't make any mistakes, duh!
Because he was a perfect coach last year and didn't make any mistakes, duh!
To bad the owner of the Broncos disagreed strongly enough that he had no problems telling a reporter that McDaniels made rookie mistakes...
Denver Native (Carol)
05-16-2010, 10:12 PM
There is no head coach coaching in any pro sports who does not make mistakes.
Broncolingus
05-16-2010, 10:17 PM
As long as so many people continue to feel it's an either/or, then these threads are just going to keep spiraling down hill or going in circles.
McDaniels has done some good things in his short time in Denver and he has made some mistakes in his short time in Denver. I really don't understand why we have one contingent that can't admit he did anything good and another contingent that can't admit he made any mistakes.
I agree 100%, bud, and should've put that in too.
In fairness, I'm in the contingent that thinks he's done some good things, made some mistakes (both pretty normal for a rookie head coach), but DO NOT subscribe to the camp that say's the 'sky in falling' and the decisions made over the past 2-years have crippled Denver Bronco's football for the next decade +
Oh well, to each his (or her) own and JMO...
I agree 100%, bud, and should've put that in too.
In fairness, I'm in the contingent that thinks he's done some good things, made some mistakes (both pretty normal for a rookie head coach), but DO NOT subscribe to the camp that say's the 'sky in falling' and the decisions made over the past 2-years have crippled Denver Bronco's football for the next decade +
Oh well, to each his (or her) own and JMO...
Anyone that can't see that McDaniels has done some good and some bad is clearly viewing the last year through VERY biased glasses.
To bad the owner of the Broncos disagreed strongly enough that he had no problems telling a reporter that McDaniels made rookie mistakes...
Bowlen was mistaken, likely drunk, and experiencing more amnesia.
Bosco
05-17-2010, 12:06 AM
How so? This is the first I have heard of this.
Come on now. The Dolphins request permission to interview Nolan and then the very next business day he not only has a contract in place but has signed it as well? Everyone knew that Nolan and the Dolphins had been talking, including the Broncos.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/01/25/broncos-suspected-tampering-but-were-happy-to-let-nolan-go/
Ok, fair enough, we can rely on Schefter.
Here's a Tweet (http://twitter.com/Adam_Schefter/status/7925615177) from Adam Schefter:
See, it's really easy to pick and choose which 'facts' you want to ignore or acknowledge, but this was my whole point. We don't really know what was happening behind the scenes and may never know.
There's really no debate that Pees was discussed, but obviously that discussion did not go very far since we never formally interviewed him.
There's really no debate that Pees was discussed, but obviously that discussion did not go very far since we never formally interviewed him.
Come on, you can't have it both ways. First they weren't interested in Pees, then there is no debate Pees was discussed.
The fact is that neither you nor I know what was discussed behind closed doors. What really led to the divorce with Nolan. Whether he was driven out, and forced his way out. Whether Miami did something wrong or not.
As to having a deal done with Miami in 24 hours. I'm not sure why some of you are making such a big deal about that. It's not like he needed carefully worded playing time incentives, bonuses for making the pro-bowl, etc. It's a cookie cutter coaches contract, and all that needed to be settled on was an amount.
arapaho2
05-17-2010, 11:27 AM
Or for those who do not wear I hate Coach McD glasses, more than likely it was this:
Possibly factoring into Nolan’s decision, his contract with the Broncos supposedly was set to expire after next season, as will a lot of the team’s assistant coaches’ deals. With the possibility of a work stoppage, Nolan foresaw being able to negotiate a contract that would pay him through a lockout with the Dolphins, should the NFL and the NFL Players Association not be able to finalize a labor deal before the 2011 season.
thats a load of crock and you know it...no defensive cordinator worth his salt..a dc that knows his stuff, has a plan for defenisve success is going to take the back seat on the defensive side from a 35 year old HC whos only defensive stint was one yr as dbs assistant
for a Dc who so dramaticaly improved the defense a new extended contract should have been offered before the season ended...if the HC wished it would have..but he didnt, instead he chose to force his will
sure nolan may have wanted out..but im pretty sure that wasnt until mcd wasnt going to let him run the defense his way and the team didnt want to talk contract...can you blame him?
thats a load of crock and you know it...no defensive cordinator worth his salt..a dc that knows his stuff, has a plan for defenisve success is going to take the back seat on the defensive side from a 35 year old HC whos only defensive stint was one yr as dbs assistant
for a Dc who so dramaticaly improved the defense a new extended contract should have been offered before the season ended...if the HC wished it would have..but he didnt, instead he chose to force his will
sure nolan may have wanted out..but im pretty sure that wasnt until mcd wasnt going to let him run the defense his way and the team didnt want to talk contract...can you blame him?
Did you just say no DC would take orders from a HC?
Brilliant.
T.K.O.
05-17-2010, 11:48 AM
thats a load of crock and you know it...no defensive cordinator worth his salt..a dc that knows his stuff, has a plan for defenisve success is going to take the back seat on the defensive side from a 35 year old HC whos only defensive stint was one yr as dbs assistant
can you blame him?
yes ....i can.
and i believe you are right.
nolan's ego would not let him take orders from a much younger man.especially after being fired from a HC spot himself.
but the fact is that the broncos (nolans) defense got figured out and exposed to the tune of an average of 244 rushing yards per game down the stretch and if he was unable or unwilling to change philosophies at that point he deserved to be fired,not just given the opportunity to interview elsewhere !
Lonestar
05-17-2010, 12:15 PM
yes ....i can.
and i believe you are right.
nolan's ego would not let him take orders from a much younger man.especially after being fired from a HC spot himself.
but the fact is that the broncos (nolans) defense got figured out and exposed to the tune of an average of 244 rushing yards per game down the stretch and if he was unable or unwilling to change philosophies at that point he deserved to be fired,not just given the opportunity to interview elsewhere !
Whoop whoop
Load of crock alert. Whoop whoop.
There are a few fans that hate Josh and everything that he does because of it.
In about every 10th post they let it slip about "when he gets fired".
Those are the true haters.
I've decided they are not worth responding to. As nothing will ever convince them he or anything he does will ever have any social redeming values.
If we ignore them they will go away and post some where else. PBWY
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums
Elevation inc
05-17-2010, 12:31 PM
thats a load of crock and you know it...no defensive cordinator worth his salt..a dc that knows his stuff, has a plan for defenisve success is going to take the back seat on the defensive side from a 35 year old HC whos only defensive stint was one yr as dbs assistant
for a Dc who so dramaticaly improved the defense a new extended contract should have been offered before the season ended...if the HC wished it would have..but he didnt, instead he chose to force his will
sure nolan may have wanted out..but im pretty sure that wasnt until mcd wasnt going to let him run the defense his way and the team didnt want to talk contract...can you blame him?
nolan's defense lacked in pressuring the QB, run blitzing, and stopping the run the last eight games of the season....is it really hard to figure out MCd thought maybe another route was needed and perhaps nolan just didnt agree so they parted.....the false conspiracy claims are downright elementary BS....jesus....
Bosco
05-17-2010, 05:43 PM
Come on, you can't have it both ways. First they weren't interested in Pees. I never said that. I said that the speculation regarding us dumping Nolan for a chance at Pees was not true.
The fact is that neither you nor I know what was discussed behind closed doors. What really led to the divorce with Nolan. Whether he was driven out, and forced his way out. Whether Miami did something wrong or not. We've got several credible sources saying the same thing Josh didn't like Nolan's philosophy and vice versa, so when Nolan had a chance to go to another team with more control they decided it would be best for both of them.
As to having a deal done with Miami in 24 hours. I'm not sure why some of you are making such a big deal about that. It's not like he needed carefully worded playing time incentives, bonuses for making the pro-bowl, etc. It's a cookie cutter coaches contract, and all that needed to be settled on was an amount. You're kidding, right? You honestly think that they ironed out his contract (never mind interviews or anything like that) and had ink to paper within a business day?
Anyone who thinks there wasn't tampering going on there is bordering on psychotic delusion.
Bosco
05-17-2010, 05:45 PM
Did you just say no DC would take orders from a HC?
Brilliant.
Amazing, isn't it?
nevcraw
05-17-2010, 06:04 PM
I never said that. I said that the speculation regarding us dumping Nolan for a chance at Pees was not true.
We've got several credible sources saying the same thing Josh didn't like Nolan's philosophy and vice versa, so when Nolan had a chance to go to another team with more control they decided it would be best for both of them.
You're kidding, right? You honestly think that they ironed out his contract (never mind interviews or anything like that) and had ink to paper within a business day?
Anyone who thinks there wasn't tampering going on there is bordering on psychotic delusion.
good lordy.. I guess I'm having one such episode.
I think it is quite possible they could get a deal done.. Like Parcels needs to interview a guy he has known for years and has first hand knowledge of his coaching.
Mike - "Hey Bill I'm out in Denver"
BP - "Great news, we want you in Miami - here's what i can offer you" - "$$$"..
Mike - Cover's phone and confers w/ wife / agent ( seconds of inaudible voices) - "Done!"
Certainly doesn't take 24 hours to agree to terms..
arapaho2
05-17-2010, 06:10 PM
Did you just say no DC would take orders from a HC?
Brilliant.
no you know what i meant...or maybe you dont:lol:
no dc worth his salt wants to have a offensive coach with one year as a assistant db coach ...tell him how to run his defense
shanny didnt tell his dc how to run the defense
if your a young offensive coach you dont didctate to a veteren 3-4 mastermind what you want or what he can or can not do...you let him run his defense...period
EMB6903
05-17-2010, 06:44 PM
no you know what i meant...or maybe you dont:lol:
no dc worth his salt wants to have a offensive coach with one year as a assistant db coach ...tell him how to run his defense
shanny didnt tell his dc how to run the defense
if your a young offensive coach you dont didctate to a veteren 3-4 mastermind what you want or what he can or can not do...you let him run his defense...period
LMAO!, good one.
I loved Shanahan.. But just like Mcdaniels hes a control freak. This is nothing new to Denver fans.
It mght be, but it doesn't change the fact that we routinely flame new members these days. Last year, we had very respectful members of the opposing team come in to discuss an upcoming game, not to talk smack, and it was us that started the smack and flaming.
Yes, it could be a former member. It could be a Patriot fan that came here to stir things up, and is posting a link on their message board for Pat's fans to watch and enjoy the reactions.
It 'could' be, but the only thing we know for sure is that some of our responses, just like many of our responses to other new posters, or opposing fans that visit during the season, show that the Broncos' fans ARE NOT the classiest in the NFL, and I don't like that. I think that Broncos fans, are and should be, the classiest in the NFL.
That's just me, everyone has their own opinion on the matter. Clearly, many people think being caustic and flaming others is 'classy'. Who knows.
/SoapboxSpeech
Some of you are classy fans Tned...not all fans of any team are...anyhoo I guess I didn't really see anything wrong with his post and it's not because I'm a Chiefs fan...and who knows if it's a banned member...doesn't really matter I suppose...everyone has an opinion.
jhildebrand
05-19-2010, 03:28 PM
nolan's defense lacked in pressuring the QB, run blitzing, and stopping the run the last eight games of the season....is it really hard to figure out MCd thought maybe another route was needed and perhaps nolan just didnt agree so they parted.....the false conspiracy claims are downright elementary BS....jesus....
If everything you say is true, why are McDaniels and the Broncos selling the idea that Wink and the D wont be much of a departure from Nolan? :confused:
If it is true that Wink is going to run a system and scheme very similar to Nolan's last year with a lot of the changes being terminology, then why make the change?
The conspiracy theory bit is a bit funny as well. The bottom line is Nolan was under contract. He would have no choice but to be here but somebody didn't want him here and was all too happy to "mutually resign" him.
The beauty is either this team will be better for the move and McDaniels gets the credit for it or the D will slip for which ONLY McDaniels can shoulder the blame.
weazel
05-19-2010, 03:44 PM
I am a longtime Patriots fan with a perspective on McDaniels, from watching almost every game since 1994. Many adore "McKid" in New England for all the points scored, but a significant fraction of fans there (including myself) were happy to see him go. I'm glad to see that so much of Broncos nation (here and at firejoshmcdaniels.com and joshmcdanielssucks.com sites) have picked up on the fact that McKid is arrogant, has people skill problems, doesn’t adjust, and is in over his head. I honestly feel sorry that he's your coach. I have a lot of respect for Broncos fans and their franchise (I used to live in Denver for several years), and know how tough your team always played us (more like killed us!). There is a chance McKid could do well eventually, like Belichick, in his second HC job, but I think he's going to be a disaster for you guys in his first HC job.
Even as a coordinator with New England, he would run the same half dozen predictable plays, over and over, then always get burned in playoffs against more experienced defensive coordinators. In my estimation, McKid is as stubbornly flawed an offensive play-caller as Mike Martz, and less talented as an overall coach IMO. Then there's his ego. In his one year in Denver, he already pushed out (alienated) key talents like Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, Scheffler, and Mike Nolan, all while talking out of both sides of his mouth. The common denominator in all of these spats was McDaniels. The funny thing is, he keeps trying to copy what he thinks Bill Belichick would do, but he forgets that Belichick himself made things work with risky malcontents like Corey Dillon and Randy Moss.
It's more his ego at play here than anything, and trust me has a massive ego. His first year as coordinator, Tom Brady refused to speak to him for 3 weeks (!!) during the regular season. It was reported that at half-time of the 2007 Superbowl, Brady and others were imploring McDaniels to make some adjustments, but he flipped out, told them to shut up, and that they weren't changing anything. In 2008 McDaniels was seen at halftime yelling in Belichick's ear while they walked across the field, with Belichick doing his best to ignore him and get to the locker room. It was his ego that vastly overpaid to draft Tebow. The truth is that it's really Belichick's QB school that knows how to produce QB's out of low draft picks (Brady, Cassel, and possibly Brian Hoyer), not McDaniels (or Charlie Weiss, for that matter). If it weren't about ego and McDaniels wanted to use his alleged competitive advantage in developing QB's, he would develop a low draft pick QB into a good one, not overpay for one.
Now off of coaching and onto drafting and player evaluation... McDaniels has made some pretty good trades in Denver, getting good value for the players he traded away. The problem is he has zero eye for talent. The Pats’ drafts from 2005-2008 weren’t that great, arguably the league's worst. However, I would argue that a lot of those drafts were f’d up by Josh McDaniels. Belichick likes to send his coordinators in the off-season to check out draft prospects, for their input. Key coordinators like Charlie Weiss and Romeo Crennel left after 2004, and their experience and input in seeing prospects during the draft process has been sorely missed.
Newspapers in Boston reported that Josh McKid personally scouted and pushed for WR Chad Jackson, QB Kevin O’Connell, RB Laurence Maroney, TE Garrett Mills, TE Dave Thomas, etc, all expensive (bust) draft picks. It’s clear Belichick quickly realized McDaniels had zero eye for talent, which is why Belichick ignored McDaniels' draft workouts in 2007 and instead traded for offensive players like Moss and Welker. Meanwhile, the defense was ignored for too long (due to McDaniels' urging for more offensive players), and the Pats began drafting very differently from the blue collar, non-skill-position players they picked high from 2001-2004. You can see that with McKid now in Denver and Pioli in KC, Belichick’s true style is back the past two drafts focusing on defensive studs and in the trenches. As an aside: Somehow the Pats started with 4 picks in the first 3 rounds, and ended up with 5 players PLUS a high Carolina 2nd rounder next year!
Anyways, there's my two cents. It's uneasy watching from afar what McDaniels is doing to your franchise, I'd rather win against a formidable opponent, but at the same time, maybe it was Belichick's plan all along to send a trojan horse over to his toughest opponent (sorry, I know poor/painful joke)!!
I am a logtime Broncos fan and think Belichick is a scumbag.
Sorry, didn't read your post... too long
Denver Native (Carol)
05-19-2010, 03:50 PM
If everything you say is true, why are McDaniels and the Broncos selling the idea that Wink and the D wont be much of a departure from Nolan? :confused:
If it is true that Wink is going to run a system and scheme very similar to Nolan's last year with a lot of the changes being terminology, then why make the change?
The conspiracy theory bit is a bit funny as well. The bottom line is Nolan was under contract. He would have no choice but to be here but somebody didn't want him here and was all too happy to "mutually resign" him.
The beauty is either this team will be better for the move and McDaniels gets the credit for it or the D will slip for which ONLY McDaniels can shoulder the blame.
I have not read anything that says McDaniels and the Broncos are selling the idea that Wink and the D won't be much of a departure from Nolan. What I have read is that Coach McD, as well as some of the players have openly endorsed Wink.
From Dawkins today:
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_15118784
The late season collapse, especially in the run defense, spurred many of the Broncos' offseason moves. The team parted ways with defensive coordinator Mike Nolan and promoted linebackers coach Don "Wink" Martindale, replaced the entire starting defensive line through free agency and made a couple changes to its linebackers corps.
Dawkins, a team captain in 2009 and the unquestioned defensive leader, said he approves of all of the changes.
"Obviously, there are going to be some things that remain the same, but Wink has his own ideas and how he wants to attack and do things," Dawkins said. "Let's just say I like them."
I have not read anything that says McDaniels and the Broncos are selling the idea that Wink and the D won't be much of a departure from Nolan. What I have read is that Coach McD, as well as some of the players have openly endorsed Wink.
From Dawkins today:
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_15118784
The late season collapse, especially in the run defense, spurred many of the Broncos' offseason moves. The team parted ways with defensive coordinator Mike Nolan and promoted linebackers coach Don "Wink" Martindale, replaced the entire starting defensive line through free agency and made a couple changes to its linebackers corps.
Dawkins, a team captain in 2009 and the unquestioned defensive leader, said he approves of all of the changes.
"Obviously, there are going to be some things that remain the same, but Wink has his own ideas and how he wants to attack and do things," Dawkins said. "Let's just say I like them."
The only thing I had read, and don't remember where, was that Martindale would run a defense similar to what McDaniels had in New England. As I don't think Martindale had any direct ties to NE.
jhildebrand
05-19-2010, 09:37 PM
I have not read anything that says McDaniels and the Broncos are selling the idea that Wink and the D won't be much of a departure from Nolan.
I have read it several times. Here is a recent quote from Dumervil:
"We have a couple tweaks terminology-wise as far as defense so I don't want to fall behind mentally."
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5195339
If there were massive changes afoot with regard to the scheme, I don't think Doom would have had any problems stating it as such.
Here is the ultimate confirmation of my earlier post from McDaniels himself:
""Wink definitely deserves this," Broncos coach Josh McDaniels told The Denver Post. "He's earned this opportunity. Our system won't change, our philosophy won't change. He's a very aggressive coach. This is a great day for the Denver Broncos."
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4866581
So it would appear most of what is changing is the terminology. That, or McDaniels is lying again.
The only thing I had read, and don't remember where, was that Martindale would run a defense similar to what McDaniels had in New England. As I don't think Martindale had any direct ties to NE.
I firmly believe that is what McDaniels wanted and he wanted to accomplish that with Dean Pees. Evidence of that would be the fact that McDaniels could have hired Wink at any time BUT that only happened AFTER Pees took a lesser position in Baltimore.
Denver Native (Carol)
05-19-2010, 09:45 PM
I have read it several times. Here is a recent quote from Dumervil:
If there were massive changes afoot with regard to the scheme, I don't think Doom would have had any problems stating it as such.
Here is the ultimate confirmation of my earlier post from McDaniels himself:
So it would appear most of what is changing is the terminology. That, or McDaniels is lying again.
I firmly believe that is what McDaniels wanted and he wanted to accomplish that with Dean Pees. Evidence of that would be the fact that McDaniels could have hired Wink at any time BUT that only happened AFTER Pees took a lesser position in Baltimore.
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_15118784
And here is what Brian Dawkins said today:
The late season collapse, especially in the run defense, spurred many of the Broncos' offseason moves. The team parted ways with defensive coordinator Mike Nolan and promoted linebackers coach Don "Wink" Martindale, replaced the entire starting defensive line through free agency and made a couple changes to its linebackers corps.
Dawkins, a team captain in 2009 and the unquestioned defensive leader, said he approves of all of the changes.
"Obviously, there are going to be some things that remain the same, but Wink has his own ideas and how he wants to attack and do things," Dawkins said. "Let's just say I like them."
jhildebrand
05-19-2010, 09:52 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_15118784
And here is what Brian Dawkins said today:
The late season collapse, especially in the run defense, spurred many of the Broncos' offseason moves. The team parted ways with defensive coordinator Mike Nolan and promoted linebackers coach Don "Wink" Martindale, replaced the entire starting defensive line through free agency and made a couple changes to its linebackers corps.
Dawkins, a team captain in 2009 and the unquestioned defensive leader, said he approves of all of the changes.
"Obviously, there are going to be some things that remain the same, but Wink has his own ideas and how he wants to attack and do things," Dawkins said. "Let's just say I like them."
Its not like Dawk is going to come out and say anything but that.
Also, I don't think Dawkins is necessarily speaking towards scheme as much as changes made along the line as noted and with the LB's.
On the contrary, there is a direct quote from McDaniels himself that the changes in scheme nor philosophy will be drastic. Now why would he say that if it weren't true? :confused: It may not be true. He has been caught lying several times now. Personally, I don't know why he bothered to even offer the quote that I posted above but he did and I tend to believe him.
Lonestar
05-19-2010, 10:03 PM
Its not like Dawk is going to come out and say anything but that.
Also, I don't think Dawkins is necessarily speaking towards scheme as much as changes made along the line as noted and with the LB's.
On the contrary, there is a direct quote from McDaniels himself that the changes in scheme nor philosophy will be drastic. Now why would he say that if it weren't true? :confused: It may not be true. He has been caught lying several times now. Personally, I don't know why he bothered to even offer the quote that I posted above but he did and I tend to believe him.
I know you do not think much of Josh and that is your right.
As far as LYING, not sure he has been caught doing so.
I also realize that every word from his mouth is recorded and analyzed ad nauseam for what the real meaning of it is.
Please tell me that you have never lied or better yet did not tell the absolute truth. Then and only then is it fair to call him a liar.
We all know there are going to be changes of some sort. That is a given if for no other reason we have NEW players to factor in with their skill sets. Even if minor one.
We all know that Williams can stop the RUN so there is a change in itself. in fact I think he can stop locomotives and jump over tall buildings while stopping bullet in his bare hands.
Lighten up my friend it is not Tell the truth and nothing but the truth each time he takes the press box stand. I have yet to see a BIble to take that oath.
http://www.denverpost.com/ci_15118784
And here is what Brian Dawkins said today:
The late season collapse, especially in the run defense, spurred many of the Broncos' offseason moves. The team parted ways with defensive coordinator Mike Nolan and promoted linebackers coach Don "Wink" Martindale, replaced the entire starting defensive line through free agency and made a couple changes to its linebackers corps.
Dawkins, a team captain in 2009 and the unquestioned defensive leader, said he approves of all of the changes.
"Obviously, there are going to be some things that remain the same, but Wink has his own ideas and how he wants to attack and do things," Dawkins said. "Let's just say I like them."
While I am hopeful the defense will be much improved this year, I'll take Dawkin's comments with a grain of salt. Let's remember how many times it was pointed out how Bailey endorsed the yearly defensive changes (DC's/Schemes/Players) under Shanahan's tenures, and how in almost every case, the results were less than stellar.
Most of these veteran players seem to adopt a policy of "say something positive, or say nothing at all"
jhildebrand
05-19-2010, 11:22 PM
I know you do not think much of Josh and that is your right.
I actually like Josh McDaniels the coach a lot. Its McDaniels the gm I am more criticial of.
Ultimately, I may be critical of McDaniels but that isn't to say I am against him or hoping he fails as others do.
As far as LYING, not sure he has been caught doing so.
He has been a couple of times. Namely by trying to claim he only answered the call on the Jay Cutler trade as opposed to being the caller.
I also realize that every word from his mouth is recorded and analyzed ad nauseam for what the real meaning of it is.
That is why I mentioned earlier that I didn't understand the logic behind the quote in question. Why bother? :confused: Why tip your hand or go on the record when it isn't necessary? He has made some similar, questionable comments with regard to Tebow of late. I am not sure if it is being a first time coach or if it is his personality but he tends to paint himself into a corner.
Hey at least it aint Shanahan and his coachspeak which was a whole lot of air!
Please tell me that you have never lied or better yet did not tell the absolute truth. Then and only then is it fair to call him a liar.
I like you, JRWIZ, but your logic doesn't hold up. A lie is a lie and who better to call one out than a liar? If your argument was true then NOBODY would be able to call anybody a liar not even a judge to a defendant.
We all know there are going to be changes of some sort. That is a given if for no other reason we have NEW players to factor in with their skill sets. Even if minor one.
We all know that Williams can stop the RUN so there is a change in itself. in fact I think he can stop locomotives and jump over tall buildings while stopping bullet in his bare hands.
Lighten up my friend it is not Tell the truth and nothing but the truth each time he takes the press box stand. I have yet to see a BIble to take that oath.
I agree. However, nobody is forcing him to make some of the statements he has. Afterall, we all know who he models himself after and that person is the master of saying nothing.
Lonestar
05-19-2010, 11:27 PM
I actually like Josh McDaniels the coach a lot. Its McDaniels the gm I am more criticial of.
Ultimately, I may be critical of McDaniels but that isn't to say I am against him or hoping he fails as others do.
He has been a couple of times. Namely by trying to claim he only answered the call on the Jay Cutler trade as opposed to being the caller.
That is why I mentioned earlier that I didn't understand the logic behind the quote in question. Why bother? :confused: Why tip your hand or go on the record when it isn't necessary? He has made some similar, questionable comments with regard to Tebow of late. I am not sure if it is being a first time coach or if it is his personality but he tends to paint himself into a corner.
Hey at least it aint Shanahan and his coachspeak which was a whole lot of air!
I like you, JRWIZ, but your logic doesn't hold up. A lie is a lie and who better to call one out than a liar? If your argument was true then NOBODY would be able to call anybody a liar not even a judge to a defendant.
I agree. However, nobody is forcing him to make some of the statements he has. Afterall, we all know who he models himself after and that person is the master of saying nothing.
So far Josh the "GM" has had the blessing or DIRECTION of Pat the owner. and FWIW he is the HC, that XMAN asks about players he wants.
When you can prove he made the calls then I'll believe you and or any one else.
Tell then I will believe he answered the phone.
Believe it if you wish MOST folks do not.
So your calling yourself a liar ?:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
How will I ever believe a word you post again?
BroncoWave
05-19-2010, 11:32 PM
It's refreshing to see Bronco fans actually sticking up for Mcdaniels for once, instead of turning against him.
Best post of the thread. I find it comical that some BRONCOS fans are defending a rival fan doing nothing but coming in here to bash our coach and are criticizing BRONCOS fans who are supporting their coach for bashing this poster.
jhildebrand
05-19-2010, 11:43 PM
So far Josh the "GM" has had the blessing or DIRECTION of Pat the owner. and FWIW he is the HC, that XMAN asks about players he wants.
When you can prove he made the calls then I'll believe you and or any one else.
Tell then I will believe he answered the phone.
Believe it if you wish MOST folks do not.
So your calling yourself a liar ?:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
How will I ever believe a word you post again?
You are the one choosing to keep your head in the sand here JRWIZ. You don't have to believe me either :lol: It isn't recommended :lol:
It was well documented by the Boston Globe and Belichick himself that McDaniels was shopping Cutler not visa versa.
Also, the insistence of some that Xanders is the true GM in the traditional sense of the role in the NFL is laughable as well.
Even McDaniels himself refers to himself as the GENERAL MANAGER of the team in this quote:
""That's what we have communicated ever since the deal with Cassel didn't happen," McDaniels said. "Other teams have called, but we're not interested in getting draft picks for Jay. I never made a statement [Saturday] that 'you can be traded at any time.' They asked a question and I told them it was the time of year when people inquire about your team. Your job, as a head coach and general manager, is to listen and not bypass any opportunity to help your team improve."
http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2009/03/16/broncos_cutler_asks_for_trade/
Trying to pass Xanders off as a true GM is a poor tactic by the blindly faithful to McDaniels. I think it is done in part to alleviate some of the pressure and criticism as has been done on these forums time and again!
Tempus Fugit
05-20-2010, 12:04 AM
You are the one choosing to keep your head in the sand here JRWIZ. You don't have to believe me either :lol: It isn't recommended :lol:
It was well documented by the Boston Globe and Belichick himself that McDaniels was shopping Cutler not visa versa.
This is simply not correct.
Bosco
05-20-2010, 02:56 AM
This is simply not correct.
Might as well give it up man, you're talking to a brick wall here.
Lonestar
05-20-2010, 08:15 AM
You are the one choosing to keep your head in the sand here JRWIZ. You don't have to believe me either :lol: It isn't recommended :lol:
It was well documented by the Boston Globe and Belichick himself that McDaniels was shopping Cutler not visa versa.
Also, the insistence of some that Xanders is the true GM in the traditional sense of the role in the NFL is laughable as well.
Even McDaniels himself refers to himself as the GENERAL MANAGER of the team in this quote:
Trying to pass Xanders off as a true GM is a poor tactic by the blindly faithful to McDaniels. I think it is done in part to alleviate some of the pressure and criticism as has been done on these forums time and again!
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Lonestar
05-20-2010, 08:23 AM
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The QUOTE says. Your job as a HC and GM are to field calls
He did not say MY job as a HC and GM.
Sounds to me like YOU want it to read the latter.
I read it as the job of HC and the GM is to answer the phone.
Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
There is little doubt in my mind that whom ever is making the GM moves is doing one hell of a job.
If it is Josh then his moves this year on Draft day was just short of briliant.
If it was Xman then he is a great GM
If it was the combination of the two all the better.
As long as Pat is OK with it why are you upset about it.
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jhildebrand
05-20-2010, 08:56 AM
The QUOTE says. Your job as a HC and GM are to field calls
He did not say MY job as a HC and GM.
Sounds to me like YOU want it to read the latter.
I read it as the job of HC and the GM is to answer the phone.
Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
There is little doubt in my mind that whom ever is making the GM moves is doing one hell of a job.
If it is Josh then his moves this year on Draft day was just short of briliant.
If it was Xman then he is a great GM
If it was the combination of the two all the better.
As long as Pat is OK with it why are you upset about it.
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He said your job as coach and gm not a coach's job or GM's job. It is perfectly clear from the quote that he referred to himself as the Coach and GM.
TXBRONC
05-20-2010, 09:27 AM
This is simply not correct.
Yeah it is correct.
Denver Native (Carol)
05-20-2010, 10:07 AM
http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/10/08/picking-the-brain-of-bill-belichick/
"Josh is smarter than me," Bill Belichick says about Josh McDaniels, the apprentice that seeks to school the scholar when the New England Patriots play at the Denver Broncos on Sunday.
Proud, confident, keep-it-close Bill Belichick is saying an opposing coach has the intellectual goods on him? It is common NFL conjecture that Belichick is the league's smartest coach. He just leaped over Curly Lambeau into third place in all-time winning percentage of coaches with at least 150 victories. The list? George Halas (.682), Don Shula (.666), Bill Belichick (.632).
With the Patriots, he is 119-46. That is a .721 winning percentage.
But eight seasons around McDaniels with the Patriots gave Belichick all the time he needed to see that McDaniels was the type of coach who could survive a firestorm in his Broncos debut and then push the team to a 4-0 start. McDaniels reportedly told his team when he first met with them months ago that beating New England was high in his priorities.
Destroying any team -- McDaniels' included -- is higher on Belichick's.
"I don't know all of the details about that, but what I see on the field is they have played well, sound, committed, taken advantage of opportunities from miscues," Belichick, in an exclusive interview with FanHouse, said of McDaniels' Broncos. "I'm not surprised. I really don't worry too much about what everyone else does. I try to coach the Patriots. See that we do a decent job.
"Every time our team walks on the field, I expect to win. We expect to win. I'm sure the Ravens last week expected to win against us. So, I imagine Josh and the Broncos expect to win. I can't imagine being a coach and not expecting that."
Belichick said when he was a first-time head coach in Cleveland in 1991 and he played his old Giants for the first time, he did not view that game as defining. He had served as the Giants' defensive coordinator; McDaniels last season served as Belichick's offensive coordinator.
"You know the players," he said. "You know the team. But the fact was I approached that game no differently than the season-opener against Dallas or the Week 2 game against New England or the Week 3 game against Cincinnati," he said, rattling them off in order before remembering that Week 4 re-introduction to the Giants, a 13-10 loss.
Belichick is too seasoned, too big picture to worry about reducing this Sunday's meeting to a personal confrontation.
"I've been in this game a long time," Belichick said. "There's something personal every week. A few coaches and players that I've worked with or have some kind of relationship with are on the other sideline every week. You greet before the game. You get on with it. That's a weekly theme. It's a book where you keep turning the page. You get to the end on Sundays and then you turn the page. Every game is big. The game you're playing is the big one. That is the most important chapter. Then you turn the page."
He is asked how he's been able to do that -- turn the page -- from his 2007 taping scandal.
"Right now, I am only thinking about the Broncos,'' he answered.
He is asked if he traded defensive end Richard Seymour to the Raiders in part to replace the No. 1 draft pick that the Patriots lost in league penalties due to that taping scandal.
"The trade was made for the best interest of the football team," he answered. "Period."
He is asked how long he will continue to coach and what has been his foundation for success.
"In the offseason, I thought about the 2009 season," Belichick said. "It's all week to week. The Falcons before the Ravens. The Ravens last week. The Broncos now. Long term for me is six days. There are a lot of layers involved in what we have tried to build here. That is more a historical question that a lot goes into it."
So, rather than try to snow his way through it, Belichick focused on something in which he takes obvious pride -- his ability to adapt. Like his teams, which play several combinations of schemes, Belichick is fond of coaching in chameleon fashion.
"You watch us play," he said. "You know we aren't the same team every week or every year. Last year, we had to find our way to win 11 games a lot different that we did the year before. We find ways to win football games. That's our philosophy. I haven't always done it the same. One year I coached quarterbacks. In '05 I spent more time with the defense than the offense. What I do is a reflection of what needs to be done."
His work usually starts at 5 AM and sometimes he finds himself wrapping things up as late as midnight. His bond with the Kraft family and their ownership style of giving him freedom to make football decisions helps to make things work, he said.
His football passion has always been innate, his core, he said.
"I love the game, I love what I am doing -- it sure beats working," Belichick said. "I enjoy coming to the stadium every day. No matter if it's the offseason program or free agency work or the draft. I enjoy preparation, team building, relationships, competition, all the things involved. It's a very complex game. Very challenging. And fun."
Belichick is aware of the criticism his vast NFL head-coaching tree has received. Recent NFL head-coaching stints including Romeo Crennel in Cleveland and Eric Mangini with the Jets and Nick Saban in Miami fizzled.
He does not like the characterization of "failure" for them.
"There is not much job security in the NFL anymore," Belichick said. "It's the way it is. I see coaches like Mike Shanahan and Jon Gruden and Jim Fassel and Brian Billick and Mike Martz out of the league right now, coaches that have won Super Bowls or played in them, not just coaches but guys who built things in the league. They're not in. That's the way it is and I find it hard to accept that those guys are out of the NFL, a lot of good coaches not coaching, and the guys that coached for me are failures. I don't hear that all of those guys are failures. So, I don't know about being able to say that."
So, here comes McDaniels off to a rapid start with a chance to alter that discussion. With a chance to school the scholar.
He joined Belichick in 2001 from Michigan State, where he had worked with Saban.
"We brought Josh in to work in the scouting department and to break down film for the defensive coaches," Belichick said. "He did everything we asked. There are a lot of impressive things about him. Very smart. The type of person you can give 10 different things to do and ask him about one of them and he will be right on top of it. It won't be he has done two or three of them and he will have to get back on the others. He would have something on each thing. The type of person who can juggle a lot of balls. And know where they all are.
"The type of person no matter how much you give him he can handle and keep in departments. He comes back to you and says here is what I found. Here's what else I found that you didn't ask for. And here is something I found once I got into it, so, I changed the direction and found this that I think will be more useful."
That's the way young Bill Belichick did it for Ted Marchibroda when Belichick got his first crack as a $25 per week special assistant for the Baltimore Colts in 1975.
When McDaniels feuded with quarterback Jay Cutler and before shipping the QB to the Chicago Bears, McDaniels called Belichick.
"We talked," Belichick said. "He had to bring it up. It's not my business.
"He had a couple of times where he could have interviewed for other jobs and didn't. After that, we started talking about things from a coordinator point of view and things he might not see with me as a head coach. We both knew he probably would have an option at some point; he would be a head coach and I would be looking for a coordinator. We shared information on that freely and candidly. He helped me. I answered his questions. We talked for hours and hours and it went both ways."
He has already seen similarities in his Patriots and McDaniels' Broncos in video study. He expects to see more similarities on Sunday.
Both coaches pound home to their players the importance of situational football. Both teach their teams in this manner.
This is the way Belichick explains it:
"It is basically one-play situations," he said. "Every play is key to the game. Sometimes it comes down to one play. How you perform in that situation, whether it is red zone or onside kick or whatever. Be organized. Everyone understands what we are trying to do. Have a plan and do it. Know the rules. There is always something new and challenging to show players. It makes the game exciting. We try to work on those situations like every team does. It's definitely important to us. You have to have everybody know what to do -- not one guy telling everybody else what to do."
Belichick said he does not give a lot of advice. But he does remind all that a coach cannot fully implement his program in four games. "It just doesn't happen for good in the first month of a season," he said. "It takes longer than that."
Regardless of the surface.
Some might take that as a bouquet tossed McDaniels' way before the scholar schools the apprentice.
"This season is a continuation, absolutely," Belichick said. "We've had transition in coaches and in the front office but we've continued to try and build on the foundation we already established. It's different every season. Yeah, some of the things I'm proud of. The challenge ahead is Denver. Not what we have or haven't done or reflection."
Tempus Fugit
05-20-2010, 10:40 AM
Yeah it is correct.
No, it's not, as has already been demonstrated numerous times. Unfortunately, facts don't seem to matter as much as people's butthurt emotions. This is a perfect example. A year has passed and people in the very fan base where this crap went down still prefer to ignore the facts rather than getting to the bottom of the situation.
T.K.O.
05-20-2010, 10:49 AM
He said your job as coach and gm not a coach's job or GM's job. It is perfectly clear from the quote that he referred to himself as the Coach and GM.
nope.... it could just as easily been that he was saying BOTH the hc and gm field calls and look at options.
in fact many times he has said that's x's dept when discussing trades and players.
so you can take one sentence with no basis for context and try and say he is claiming to be the gm....but your wrong
why would he claim to be the gm when the broncos have a gm?:confused:
i hope you don't think we have a retard for a coach,you dontv get to that level of employment by being a dumbass:laugh:
BroncoJoe
05-20-2010, 10:51 AM
...
ignore the facts rather than getting to the bottom of the situation.
Who cares? It's over.
TXBRONC
05-20-2010, 11:08 AM
Who cares? It's over.
You're absolutely right. You can evidence to support whatever side you want at the end of the day he's gone and wont be coming back.
Bosco
05-21-2010, 02:14 AM
No, it's not, as has already been demonstrated numerous times. Unfortunately, facts don't seem to matter as much as people's butthurt emotions. This is a perfect example. A year has passed and people in the very fan base where this crap went down still prefer to ignore the facts rather than getting to the bottom of the situation.
It's sad isn't it? I mean you basically have the NFL's most respected reporterw, who also happens to have great ties to the Broncos, and he's telling people what really happened yet the McD haters just plug their ears and go "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"
:tsk:
Lonestar
05-21-2010, 04:34 AM
He said your job as coach and gm not a coach's job or GM's job. It is perfectly clear from the quote that he referred to himself as the Coach and GM.
""That's what we have communicated ever since the deal with Cassel didn't happen," McDaniels said. "Other teams have called, but we're not interested in getting draft picks for Jay. I never made a statement [Saturday] that 'you can be traded at any time.' They asked a question and I told them it was the time of year when people inquire about your team. Your job, as a head coach and general manager, is to listen and not bypass any opportunity to help your team improve."
SO you are saying because he used and instead of or he called himself the GM?
Even though we all KNow that three people report to Pat Joe, Josh and Xman.
Do you suppose that that is no longer valid.
Sorry but while he has a lot of responsibility but Xman is the GM and works very closely with Josh on player acquisitions.
Josh does not do it himself.
jhildebrand
05-21-2010, 11:01 PM
SO you are saying because he used and instead of or he called himself the GM?
Even though we all KNow that three people report to Pat Joe, Josh and Xman.
Do you suppose that that is no longer valid.
Sorry but while he has a lot of responsibility but Xman is the GM and works very closely with Josh on player acquisitions.
Josh does not do it himself.
Why then is it that Xanders has NOT ONCE been questioned by the media on any issue typical to a GM?
Either of the Marshall sagas...not one question directed at Xanders? The Moreno pick last year. Not one question to X? Cutler saga? NOPE. Scheffler? Nope. This year's picks or FA's? NOPE.
Even most media memebers including the very pro McDaniels faction don't pretend that McDaniels doesn't have full control! :coffee:
Again, I firmly believe those that hold tight to the notion that McD is not in full control only do it as a way to deflect valid criticism.
jhildebrand
05-21-2010, 11:04 PM
It's sad isn't it? I mean you basically have the NFL's most respected reporterw, who also happens to have great ties to the Broncos, and he's telling people what really happened yet the McD haters just plug their ears and go "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"
:tsk:
What ties exactly to the Broncos does Schefter have at this point? That Regime is gone. Almost everybody connected to the Broncos when Schefter was the beat writer is gone.
Also, your argument fails to address the fact that the Boston Globe writer is equally as close to Belichick and the Pats as any writer ever has been to the Broncos. Belichick made it perfectly clear that HE wasn't comfortable with three team trades as well as the fact that McD was driving the car on the deal.
Finally, the Broncos were questioned on the "we only answered" calls argument. The Broncos offered to produce phone records to prove it. When the time came to produce them, the team balked.
Why then is it that Xanders has NOT ONCE been questioned by the media on any issue typical to a GM?
Either of the Marshall sagas...not one question directed at Xanders? The Moreno pick last year. Not one question to X? Cutler saga? NOPE. Scheffler? Nope. This year's picks or FA's? NOPE.
Even most media memebers including the very pro McDaniels faction don't pretend that McDaniels doesn't have full control! :coffee:
Again, I firmly believe those that hold tight to the notion that McD is not in full control only do it as a way to deflect valid criticism.
I posed this question via Twitter to Frank Schwab of the Colorado Springs Gazette. For those that don't know him, he's a beat writer, at all the press conferences, Broncos mini, OTA and training camps, games, etc.
My question was: Does McDaniels run it all, like Shanahan, or does Xanders make Personnel decisions with McDaneils input?
Schwab's response:
Similar. Shanny didn't run it all - he got input from Ted/scouts. But had final say RT @BroncosForums Does McD run it all, like Shanahan,
I then posted a follow up: So like Shanahan, McDaniels gets input from Xanders and others, but then McD makes the final decision on player/personnel decisions?
Schwab's response:
Believe so RT @BroncosForums So like Shanahan, McD gets input from X and others, but McD makes final decision on personnel decisions?
Now, Schwab and the other reporters have a MUCH better handle on things than us, because they are at the facility, at the press conferences, interviewing McDaniels (sometimes other coaches, but McDaniels rarely allows it, based on what the reporters said last season), interviews players and agents. These guys practically living with the Broncos believe that McDaniels runs the Broncos basically the same way Shanahan did.
Anyway, I thought I would pass that on, for what it's worth.
Bosco
05-22-2010, 12:02 AM
Why then is it that Xanders has NOT ONCE been questioned by the media on any issue typical to a GM?
Because it's not Xanders job. As GM, Xanders job is primarily handling the business affairs of the organization, while Josh is obviously in charge of the football team and personnel matters. They both report to Bowlen of course.
What ties exactly to the Broncos does Schefter have at this point? That Regime is gone. Almost everybody connected to the Broncos when Schefter was the beat writer is gone. Who knows what ties he still has to the team. All we know is that he has them and they're extremely accurate. It could be any number of the people still around from when he was in Denver, including Bowlen and most of the scouting department, or it could be new relationships he's fostered just like he's done all over the league.
Also, your argument fails to address the fact that the Boston Globe writer is equally as close to Belichick and the Pats as any writer ever has been to the Broncos. Belichick made it perfectly clear that HE wasn't comfortable with three team trades as well as the fact that McD was driving the car on the deal. What article are you talking about? I've seen you reference it several times but never seen you actually post it. Also, tell us who the author is and the kind of verification of his close ties to Belichick.
Oh and if you want to cite people with established Patriot ties, how about Peter King? His comments on the scenario mirrored what Schefter was saying almost word for word. How do you plan on disputing that?
Finally, the Broncos were questioned on the "we only answered" calls argument. The Broncos offered to produce phone records to prove it. When the time came to produce them, the team balked. Your timeline is off. The phone records thing came after Bowlen issued his statement saying they would trade Cutler because he wouldn't return their calls. Cutler disputed this, and Bowlen responded by saying he had the phone records.
I also don't remember anyone really pushing for their phone records, or the club "balking" at the request. Of course that probably had something to do with the fact that once Jay Cutler claimed he "never wanted to be traded" everyone with a functioning brain cell knew he was a lying sack of shit.
Lonestar
05-22-2010, 12:05 AM
Why then is it that Xanders has NOT ONCE been questioned by the media on any issue typical to a GM?
Either of the Marshall sagas...not one question directed at Xanders? The Moreno pick last year. Not one question to X? Cutler saga? NOPE. Scheffler? Nope. This year's picks or FA's? NOPE.
Even most media memebers including the very pro McDaniels faction don't pretend that McDaniels doesn't have full control! :coffee:
Again, I firmly believe those that hold tight to the notion that McD is not in full control only do it as a way to deflect valid criticism.
IT is plain to see that Josh has been installed as the "face" of the broncos. I do not know of any NFL franchises that have the GM as spokesman for the franchise other than jerry jones and Al davis
FWIW he did do an interview not to long ago. it was posted on here somewhere.
As for him having full control I would expect the HC to have a say in every thing that is done in the personnel area, but I doubt seriously that the scouting department reports to him, nor does the Xman. Xman Joe and Josh report directly to Pat. Or did so at the time that Pat set this up.
Denver Native (Carol)
05-22-2010, 09:36 AM
Why then is it that Xanders has NOT ONCE been questioned by the media on any issue typical to a GM?
Either of the Marshall sagas...not one question directed at Xanders? The Moreno pick last year. Not one question to X? Cutler saga? NOPE. Scheffler? Nope. This year's picks or FA's? NOPE.
Even most media memebers including the very pro McDaniels faction don't pretend that McDaniels doesn't have full control! :coffee:
Again, I firmly believe those that hold tight to the notion that McD is not in full control only do it as a way to deflect valid criticism.
If you look for things on Xanders, you will find them:
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=609&year=2010&month=4
BTV Sits Down with GM Brian Xanders -- Tuesday, April 27, 2010
Brian Xanders talks about how the Broncos approached last weekend's draft; the complete interview can be seen on the DB Draft Special on Comcast.
ANOTHER ONE
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=609&year=2010&month=3
BTV Exclusive: Interview with GM Brian Xanders -- Monday, March 1, 2010
General Manager Brian Xanders talks to Broncos TV about evaluating draft prospects at the 2010 Scouting Combine.
Xanders is heavily involved. He is the one negotiating the player's contracts. AND, I would imagine that MOST head coaches would have FINAL say so as to who is being drafted, etc., or at least be VERY much involved. Is it NOT their BUTT's which are on the line????????
Lonestar
05-22-2010, 10:16 AM
If you look for things on Xanders, you will find them:
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=609&year=2010&month=4
BTV Sits Down with GM Brian Xanders -- Tuesday, April 27, 2010
Brian Xanders talks about how the Broncos approached last weekend's draft; the complete interview can be seen on the DB Draft Special on Comcast.
ANOTHER ONE
http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=609&year=2010&month=3
BTV Exclusive: Interview with GM Brian Xanders -- Monday, March 1, 2010
General Manager Brian Xanders talks to Broncos TV about evaluating draft prospects at the 2010 Scouting Combine.
Xanders is heavily involved. He is the one negotiating the player's contracts. AND, I would imagine that MOST head coaches would have FINAL say so as to who is being drafted, etc., or at least be VERY much involved. Is it NOT their BUTT's which are on the line????????
But, but, but those are only on Broncos.com. Those do not count. That is not facing the REAL journalists.
Nice find Carol of course He is a real GM unlike any of mikeys. :salute:
He was brought in as an equal by Pat when he set up the reporting structure.
FWIW it was Josh and Xman that did the scouting run the monday before the draft to meet with DT and Tebow. Does anyone think that Josh took him along just to carry his baggage, or fetch his coffee. He was there because Josh likes the guy and trusts his input.
Just when did mikey ever treat someone as an equal.I'm not even sure he thought of Pat as anything other than a bank account and friend.
As in everything NO ONE knows for sure what is going on in Dove Valley but I have a hell of a lot more confidence today than I have since 2000. For Gods sake we actually have a proven set of Vets on the DL for the first time since 1998.
We have actually drafted OLINE players that someone else might have, none of them left overs.
Time will Tell.
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Denver Native (Carol)
05-22-2010, 10:38 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_15016602
Hi Mike, what's your view on Josh McDaniel's authority on player personnel decisions? Does he have across-the-board authority? In other words, was it coach McDaniels who fell in love with Tebow, or was it the entire Broncos' organization?
--Matt, Denver
Matt, McDaniels has final-say authority on all player personnel matters. A player as significant as Tim Tebow has to be McDaniels' call. McDaniels is the offensive expert, the quarterback guru.
His brother, new quarterbacks' coach Ben McDaniels, may have had significant influence on the Tebow decision. General manager Brian Xanders, a Florida State alum who may have grown tired of watching Tebow whip his Seminoles, may have had significant influence in the selection process.
But a decision this monumental was ultimately made by McDaniels. As for my view on McDaniels' autocratic power, I don't see how it can work any other way. The Broncos are implementing the offensive system he brought over from the New England Patriots. It's his 3-4 defensive system. McDaniels knows more than anyone else what kind of players fit those systems. He has to make the final call on player personnel.
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_15016602
Hi Mike, what's your view on Josh McDaniel's authority on player personnel decisions? Does he have across-the-board authority? In other words, was it coach McDaniels who fell in love with Tebow, or was it the entire Broncos' organization?
--Matt, Denver
Matt, McDaniels has final-say authority on all player personnel matters. A player as significant as Tim Tebow has to be McDaniels' call. McDaniels is the offensive expert, the quarterback guru.
His brother, new quarterbacks' coach Ben McDaniels, may have had significant influence on the Tebow decision. General manager Brian Xanders, a Florida State alum who may have grown tired of watching Tebow whip his Seminoles, may have had significant influence in the selection process.
But a decision this monumental was ultimately made by McDaniels. As for my view on McDaniels' autocratic power, I don't see how it can work any other way. The Broncos are implementing the offensive system he brought over from the New England Patriots. It's his 3-4 defensive system. McDaniels knows more than anyone else what kind of players fit those systems. He has to make the final call on player personnel.
Well, now that's Klis from DP.com and Schwab from Spings Gazette that have said that McDaniels, like Shanahan, has final say on personnel issues. Xanders, like Sundquist did, has input, but the final say is McDaniels. "Autocratic power" kind of says it all.
For what it's worth, I'm not part of the school of thought that thinks it's wrong for the head coach to have significant, if not total, power. However, there is no sense in pretending that Xanders is simply getting input from McDaniels, with Xanders ultimately making the decisions, because there is no evidence that that is the case.
Lonestar
05-22-2010, 11:17 AM
Name one other GM in this years NFL other than aldavis or jerry jones that the run the team.
NONE the HC all have final say so about players and plays.
NO ONE is saying differenty. Just saying that unlike mikey doing it all Josh has a GM that he respects and trusts, whom has equal access to Pat.
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Denver Native (Carol)
05-22-2010, 11:37 AM
If I would guess - Xanders is making the decisions, more than likely with Pat's input/approval on ALL money matters. I would hope that Josh is making the final decisions on the players. As Klis said:
"McDaniels knows more than anyone else what kind of players fit those systems. He has to make the final call on player personnel."
BroncoJoe
05-22-2010, 11:40 AM
Who cares?
Who cares?
Sorry, I was only able to high-five this post one time officially, but here's some unofficial ones....
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Bosco
05-22-2010, 03:01 PM
Name one other GM in this years NFL other than aldavis or jerry jones that the run the team.
NONE the HC all have final say so about players and plays.
NO ONE is saying differenty. Just saying that unlike mikey doing it all Josh has a GM that he respects and trusts, whom has equal access to Pat.
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The only places that really have that kind of arrangement anymore is Oakland, San Diego and now Cleveland, with Dallas, Miami and Baltimore to a lesser extent.
The only one who's had any level of success with the GM calling 99% of the shots is San Diego. Beyond that, the NFL has moved away from that model and for good reason.
Lonestar
05-22-2010, 03:55 PM
The only places that really have that kind of arrangement anymore is Oakland, San Diego and now Cleveland, with Dallas, Miami and Baltimore to a lesser extent.
The only one who's had any level of success with the GM calling 99% of the shots is San Diego. Beyond that, the NFL has moved away from that model and for good reason.
I disagree with SAN while the GM did have the power to draft guys but for the most part he loaded the team with some real studs.
As for Ozzie he is a superb GM but does not call the shots on the field, but he brings in some great talent that the coaches want.
Dallas coach is a puppet of jerry there is little debate about that, he ran off two great coaches that no longer wanted to put up with his meddling. same goes for OAK.
Not sure about CLE although with Mike there it may be closer to the truth.
The thing that we have lacked for years was a REAL professional GM that had experience now we at least have a GM that reports to the Owner not the head coach.
Not sure he is a word beater as far as running the back side of the team and if those players we have brought in are worth a damn. Time will tell.
But they certainly cant be any worse than what mikey did from 1999-05, 07 and maybe even 08.
I'm not all that convinced those brought in in 06 were worth a crap either since only kuper and doom are left from that mess. neither of them were anything but long shots to make the team any way.
Lonestar
05-22-2010, 03:57 PM
Who cares?
Obviously lots of members/posters so far some 170 posts.
You can always bypass those threads you are not interested in.
BroncoJoe
05-22-2010, 05:37 PM
Obviously lots of members/posters so far some 170 posts.
You can always bypass those threads you are not interested in.
And, you can always apply with a professional football organization so you can instill your wisdom.
170 posts of drival. One person trying to prove another wrong. It's a waste of time, IMO. I visit these boards because there are 100+ people searching the internet for stories realated to the Broncos so I don't have to search myself. What you all debate is entertaining, but more often than not annoying.
My point? It is what it is. Debating it doesn't change anything.
Bosco
05-22-2010, 09:51 PM
I disagree with SAN while the GM did have the power to draft guys but for the most part he loaded the team with some real studs.
As for Ozzie he is a superb GM but does not call the shots on the field, but he brings in some great talent that the coaches want.
Dallas coach is a puppet of jerry there is little debate about that, he ran off two great coaches that no longer wanted to put up with his meddling. same goes for OAK.
Not sure about CLE although with Mike there it may be closer to the truth.
The thing that we have lacked for years was a REAL professional GM that had experience now we at least have a GM that reports to the Owner not the head coach.
Not sure he is a word beater as far as running the back side of the team and if those players we have brought in are worth a damn. Time will tell.
But they certainly cant be any worse than what mikey did from 1999-05, 07 and maybe even 08.
I'm not all that convinced those brought in in 06 were worth a crap either since only kuper and doom are left from that mess. neither of them were anything but long shots to make the team any way.
Sure, A.J Smith has pulled off some very solid draft day moves, and Ozzie is an excellent talent evaluator and while neither of them really call the shots on the field, they have great say in the overall direction of the team since they are the ones who are mainly responsible for selecting the players. Mike Holmgren will probably have the same role with Cleveland.
Lonestar
05-22-2010, 10:01 PM
Sure, A.J Smith has pulled off some very solid draft day moves, and Ozzie is an excellent talent evaluator and while neither of them really call the shots on the field, they have great say in the overall direction of the team since they are the ones who are mainly responsible for selecting the players. Mike Holmgren will probably have the same role with Cleveland.
Overall Maybe, they determine the way the team goes but I'll bet they work in conjunction with the HC to determine what players they bring in.
Years ago I know the SAN GM drafted a few players that the then HC did not want soon after the HC was gone this was pre marty IIRC.
The same thing happened in KC the GM wanted The big RB LJ while they still had Priest Holmes the HC wanted someone else, but got saddled with LJ and he sat until the coach got fired. Now the GM is gone also.
But these are rare cases. Years ago the owners would hire GM who would then hire the HC they could work with. That has gone by the wayside in recent years.
Bosco
05-22-2010, 10:22 PM
Overall Maybe, they determine the way the team goes but I'll bet they work in conjunction with the HC to determine what players they bring in.
Years ago I know the SAN GM drafted a few players that the then HC did not want soon after the HC was gone this was pre marty IIRC.
The same thing happened in KC the GM wanted The big RB LJ while they still had Priest Holmes the HC wanted someone else, but got saddled with LJ and he sat until the coach got fired. Now the GM is gone also.
But these are rare cases. Years ago the owners would hire GM who would then hire the HC they could work with. That has gone by the wayside in recent years.
I agree, it's rare these days, and that's because it's not really a successful model to run. Hence why most teams have moved away from that.
Lonestar
05-23-2010, 01:45 AM
I agree, it's rare these days, and that's because it's not really a successful model to run. Hence why most teams have moved away from that.
Not sure if it is because the Head coaches are just better quality ot that there are to few great GM's.
Mostly NOW good Gm's work closely with HC's to do what is best for th team.
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EMB6903
05-23-2010, 10:10 AM
Name one other GM in this years NFL other than aldavis or jerry jones that the run the team.
NONE the HC all have final say so about players and plays.
NO ONE is saying differenty. Just saying that unlike mikey doing it all Josh has a GM that he respects and trusts, whom has equal access to Pat.
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Pioli in Kansas City, Holmgren in Cleveland, Newsome in Baltimore, Polian in Indy, AJ Smith in San Diego are just a few I can name off the top of my head that make most of the personel decisions.. and theres definately more.
pnbronco
05-23-2010, 12:27 PM
And, you can always apply with a professional football organization so you can instill your wisdom.
170 posts of drival. One person trying to prove another wrong. It's a waste of time, IMO. I visit these boards because there are 100+ people searching the internet for stories realated to the Broncos so I don't have to search myself. What you all debate is entertaining, but more often than not annoying.
My point? It is what it is. Debating it doesn't change anything.
Could no agree more. I love that there are so many people that are searching for Bronco News. Carol is the Queen of finding info and I love that. The debating just gets so old and I find that these days I don't have the time or energy to deal with right now. Maybe when camp starts I will be refueled in both area's.....:D
dogfish
05-23-2010, 05:13 PM
The only places that really have that kind of arrangement anymore is Oakland, San Diego and now Cleveland, with Dallas, Miami and Baltimore to a lesser extent.
The only one who's had any level of success with the GM calling 99% of the shots is San Diego. Beyond that, the NFL has moved away from that model and for good reason.
Pioli in Kansas City, Holmgren in Cleveland, Newsome in Baltimore, Polian in Indy, AJ Smith in San Diego are just a few I can name off the top of my head that make most of the personel decisions.. and theres definately more.
yea, gotta have bill polian on that list. . .
Denver27og
05-24-2010, 03:17 PM
im hoping mcdick is gone after this year...
im hoping mcdick is gone after this year...
Don't hold your breath.
Bosco
05-24-2010, 03:24 PM
im hoping mcdick is gone after this year...
Still pissed about him tossing the frown cannon out on his ass eh?
claymore
05-24-2010, 03:49 PM
im hoping mcdick is gone after this year...
This cracked me up. :laugh:
Denver27og
05-24-2010, 03:58 PM
Still pissed about him tossing the frown cannon out on his ass eh?
yes.. among other things... bmarsh.. doom doesnt he deserve a new contract?? kyle orton... brady quinn.. tebow and what was given up for him.. giving up a first for alphonso smith.. we used to have what was considered a good offense.. turnin the broncos into the patriots west... but most seem to be ok with that..
T.K.O.
05-24-2010, 04:44 PM
yes.. among other things... bmarsh.. doom doesnt he deserve a new contract?? kyle orton... brady quinn.. tebow and what was given up for him.. giving up a first for alphonso smith.. we used to have what was considered a good offense.. turnin the broncos into the patriots west... but most seem to be ok with that..
i know....or old 8-8 team was waaaaaaaay better than last years 8-8 team:mad:
Tempus Fugit
05-24-2010, 04:56 PM
yes.. among other things... bmarsh.. doom doesnt he deserve a new contract?? kyle orton... brady quinn.. tebow and what was given up for him.. giving up a first for alphonso smith.. we used to have what was considered a good offense.. turnin the broncos into the patriots west... but most seem to be ok with that..
1.)
2006: 319 points for 17th in the NFL
2007: 320 points for 21st in the NFL
2008: 370 points for 16th in the NFL
2009: 326 points for 20th in the NFL
Either you're overrating that "good offense", or you're underrating last year's team.
2.) The Patriots have finished with the best record in the division every season since 2001. Other than, possibly, the Colts, what other team is there that would be better to model the Broncos after?
3.) The Tebow thing has been gone over time and time again, as has the Smith trade. The trades themselves were fine. The question will be the picks themselves.
4.) Marshall's problems stemmed from before McDaniels even arrived on the scene. Holding McDaniels responsible for that situation is just ridiculous.
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