Paige thinks we should trade orton... soon.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_15047949



For the development of Brady Quinn, Tim Tebow and Tom Brandstater, for fairness to Kyle Orton, for the benefit of the other Broncos, for the future of the franchise, for the fans in Bronco Country, for goodness' sake, Orton must be traded.

Orton is not a short-term fix or a long-range fit for the Broncos.

A deal should be sought, in my opinion, before the team's voluntary minicamp May 17-19 — so the Broncos and Orton can move on now.

Josh McDaniels, it has been asserted, has been joined at one hip with Tebow and, to the other, with Quinn, but, truthfully, his coaching reign in Denver can't be tied to Orton.

McDaniels is better off putting his trust in, and his teaching toward, Young QBT and QB3 — Quinn, Brandstater & Tebow.

If the Broncos had been so enamored with Orton after the last so-so season, they wouldn't have first acquired Quinn and then drafted Tebow.

History serves. In 1982, serviceable journeyman Steve DeBerg was the Broncos' starter, but John Elway and Gary Kubiak arrived the next year. After the 1983 season, DeBerg left for Tampa Bay, and Elway and Kubiak were the Broncos' starter-backup tandem for a long time.

The DeBerg-like Orton, who will become an unrestricted free agent in 2011, will be gone soon anyway. It should be done prior to this season — and Quinn and Tebow can compete vigorously to become No. 1. McDaniels obviously believes both can be starters in the NFL. Why wait until after another 8-8 season with Orton?

McDaniels made a bold, highly controversial decision to jettison Jay Cutler in 2009. The trading of Orton wouldn't be as difficult — or unpopular. Orton didn't make a stand or a statement last season. The Broncos let it get away.

Orton has said publicly he had a "good season," and others have agreed with the assessment — based on 21 touchdown passes, 12 interceptions, 3,802 yards passing and a shocking 6-0 start.

The Broncos lost eight of their final 10, and in those games Orton had 12 touchdown passes, 11 interceptions and 2,337 yards. In nine games last season, the Broncos' offense didn't score more than 20 points.

Orton, McDaniels and the Broncos had a "mediocre season."

Nobody, Cutler included, would say Cutler had a good season. But his last 10 games were comparable to Orton's — a 4-6 record, 16 touchdown passes, 16 interceptions and 2,214 yards. One team finished 8-8, the other 7-9. Neither made the playoffs.

Orton is described as "smart, a leader, an overachiever, a tireless worker."

He is smart. Orton knows, in the aftermath of recent major events, he is a temp, at best, a reservist waiting to happen, at worst. He should welcome a change in venue — to where he has a chance to start over. A dozen teams could use a veteran reserve, but the Broncos, honestly, wouldn't get much more than a mid- round draft pick in return.

He's not a true leader. The Broncos had Champ Bailey, D.J. Williams and Brian Dawkins in leadership roles on defense, but nobody on offense. The leadership has to come from the QB, and Orton's soft attitude didn't motivate his teammates.

He hasn't overachieved with his two NFL teams. Orton was dumped as a starter late in his rookie season with the Bears, barely played the next two seasons, started in 2008, didn't reach the postseason and was traded to the Broncos last year, where, again he fell short of the playoffs.Although Orton played through two injuries (throwing hand and ankle), his quirky offseason work ethic has been questioned in Chicago and Denver.

Everybody knows Orton is immobile, doesn't possess a powerful arm, vacillates when making passing choices and doesn't read defenses extremely well. Like Brian Griese, Orton has to play a near-perfect game to win — and receive a lot of help from his defense.

Orton is an average quarterback who couldn't start for 21 other teams in the league.

According to reports out of Jacksonville, the Jaguars have asked about a deal for Quinn. But the Broncos have been impressed with Quinn in OTAs (organized team activities) and will not let him go. The Jags' failure to draft Tebow likely was the death knell for the franchise in Jacksonville, but his presence on the Broncos' roster in the opening game will ensure a rare sellout for the Jaguars.

What about Orton in Jacksonville? He might push David Gerrard. Maybe the cross-state Bucs would be attracted to Orton, or the Bills, whose owner, Ralph Wilson, said the Broncos "panicked" by picking Tebow and that Buffalo had "no interest" in the QB.

If Orton were to be shipped out, the Broncos would save his $2.6 million contract and have Brandstater at $395,000, Tebow in the first year of an approximate five-year, $15 million to $18 million contract (about $8 million guaranteed) and Quinn in the odd position of receiving $700,000, with the chance to earn $5.9 million (if he takes 70 percent of the snaps). The Broncos will have two quarterbacks who will turn 26 in October (Quinn in his fourth season, Brandstater his second) and one will be 23 in August and in his rookie year.

That triad is the Broncos' solid future investment at quarterback.

And for the good of all, Orton has to be passed along.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

This is basically Kizlas' take:


Can we all agree $2 million is serious money? Some jobs, however, are not worth doing at any cost.

Kyle Orton would have rocks for brains to start another game as quarterback of the Broncos. He would be playing the fool for Denver coach Josh McDaniels.

If Orton owns a penny's worth of common sense, he has already quietly, politely and firmly asked for a trade to grant his freedom. Let him go to the Buffalo Bills. The Edmonton Eskimos. Anywhere but here.

Why should Orton stick around and be a clown in the Tim Tebow circus?

In the NFL, a lame-duck quarterback is a messy ending waiting to happen.

It won't work. It can't work. Sandra Bullock and Jesse James have more of a future together than Orton and McDaniels.

Unless deaf, dumb and blind, Orton must be aware of his impending status as sacrificial scapegoat. At best, McDaniels deludes himself if he thinks Orton has the stuff to hold off challenges from Brady Quinn and Tebow. And the 75,000 Broncomaniacs itching to boo Orton the next time he throws an interception just want to get on with the rest of this team's life.

So let's stop the charade before everybody must pretend to go through the motions.

Stuck between impending NFL labor strife and a hard place, Orton recently signed a $2.6 million, one-year deal from the Broncos with barely a complaint.

Now, Orton can only hope it is his ticket out of town.

Think what you will of Orton. Sure, calling the 27-year-old quarterback a game manager might be code for not Super Bowl material. But if you want somebody to trash him, I'm not your guy.

Please take into consideration Orton's relatively modest salary, his winning percentage as an NFL starter and the solid character he demonstrates in victory or defeat. Add it up. What Orton brings to the table should be reasonably attractive on the trade market.

The Broncos obviously don't want him around for long. The only way

McDaniels could have sent his incumbent quarterback a more unmistakable vote of no confidence is if the coach hung a Tebow jersey in Orton's locker.

We know Orton's job is throwing passes. But he had to catch the hint that, when the Broncos traded for Quinn and drafted Tebow during a span of less than six weeks, McDan- iels was telling you, me and every player in the Denver locker room that he thinks Orton gives the team almost zero chance to be a big winner in the long run.

Has McDaniels ever compared Orton to New England superstar Tom Brady, as the young Broncos' coach seems so willing to do with Tebow?

If Jay Cutler or Brandon Marshall could pout his way out of Denver, then McDaniels owes Orton a fresh start in a new city.

It's the only classy thing to do.

Heck, it's the only practical thing to do. If Broncomaniacs booed Orton a year ago for not being Cutler, think of the grief he will endure for delaying the start of Tebow time.

Sorry, mayor John Hickenlooper. The toughest political position in Denver is quarterback of the Broncos. Orton does not have the clout to silence the howling masses the next time this team loses two games in a row.

The conventional wisdom has been that Orton will serve as the team's starting quarterback in 2010.

Why waste another year?

The Broncos travel to Tebow's backyard to open the regular season in Jacksonville.

If Orton is under center when the Broncos break the huddle, it might be the first time in NFL history the crowd loudly chants its demand for the visiting team to make a change at quarterback.

So long as Orton is the quarterback, Denver has no future.

Mark Kiszla: 303-954-1053 or mkiszla@denverpost.com

[milehigh]

Who cares what Paige thinks we should do.

[Lonestar]

I can hardly wait to see how many folks that normally think that woody is a total tool. Will jump all over this like it is the holy grail.

:laugh:
:laugh:
:laugh:
:laugh:
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[HORSEPOWER 56]

Who cares what Paige thinks we should do.

Kizla agrees with him. I'm just posting this stuff so folks can read it if they want...

[Lonestar]

Add kizla to that list of tools.
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[BroncoJoe]

Regardless of who wrote the articles, they make a lot of sense.

[BroncoWave]

Regardless of who wrote the articles, they make a lot of sense.

Agreed. Unless McD thinks Orton can lead us to a Super Bowl this year or unless he thinks that Tebow or Quinn won't be ready to start in week 1, trading Orton now and getting something for him probably wouldn't be the worst idea.

[Lonestar]

KO can have a great contract year.

There is little doubt who the FQB appears to be.

But I doubt that Josh will sacrifice the season by handing the keys to the hiuse to Quinn or Tebow when he can have a winning season.

Unless Pat gives him a pass on a losing season and tells him up front that he is prepared to lose this yeat while getting Tebow ready to start, then Orton can b released.

But that also tells the rest of the team that winning is not everything also.

Damned if you do Damned if you do not.
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[BroncoWave]

KO can have a great contract year.

There is little doubt who the FQB appears to be.

But I doubt that Josh will sacrifice the season by handing the keys to the hiuse to Quinn or Tebow when he can have a winning season.

Unless Pat gives him a pass on a losing season and tells him up front that he is prepared to lose this yeat while getting Tebow ready to start, then Orton can b released.

But that also tells the rest of the team that winning is not everything also.

Damned if you do Damned if you do not.
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Or maybe he feels like he could win with Quinn or Tebow this year. None of us know what he is seeing on the field and at the facilities day after day.

[gobroncsnv]

Not sure if we should dump Orton yet, but man, it would be so cool if he WAS the second coming of DeBerg... Look where he was and who teams got when he spent some time on your roster...

Deberg gave way to Montana in SF
to Elway in Denver
to Steve Young in Tampa (not that Young was all that great in Tampa, but that was a team problem, not Young's)

If Orton could do (or has done?) that for us, then for no other reason, I'm glad he came.

In fairness to Orton, I don't know if we've seen his full potential yet. Can't say that we had a dangerous run game in place for him, nor was our Oline as good as in years past, and first year in an offense that was new to close to EVERYBODY on the team. If you fault only the QB because a team has those problems, you need to watch more football, and stay away from the fantasy football analysis pages.

Paige may be right, the team did get a couple of QB's, but as I've said before, I don't care WHO it is we have playing QB, as long as he's the best one we've got. If someone else rises above, or if Orton catches fire because of the competition, it's all good with me.

[silkamilkamonico]

LOL

I don't like Orton any more than the next guy, but even I can see Denver would be worse off without him for the 2010 season.

Buy a clue Woods.

[jhildebrand]

Why would you get rid of Orton at this point? :confused:

He is costing you next to nothing when it comes to QB's. Also, who would be there to groom or even subtly help Quinn or Tebow???

Orton isn't going anywhere for 2010

[Tned]

KO can have a great contract year.

There is little doubt who the FQB appears to be.

But I doubt that Josh will sacrifice the season by handing the keys to the hiuse to Quinn or Tebow when he can have a winning season.

Unless Pat gives him a pass on a losing season and tells him up front that he is prepared to lose this yeat while getting Tebow ready to start, then Orton can b released.

But that also tells the rest of the team that winning is not everything also.

Damned if you do Damned if you do not.
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The part where Orton would be a fool to start a game for the Broncos is just a joke. As you say, this year is Orton's chance to showcase what he can do, in a supposedly QB friendly system, because he will be a FA next year. This is a contract year, whether he was resigning with the Broncos or hitting the open market, and it's in his best interest to start as many games as possible.

Even if Tebow is brought in for the Wild Hog/Wild Horse set, or in some red zone situations, if Orton is succeeding when he is on the field, no GM is going to holding that subbing in of Tebow against him come contract time. It's clear to the world that McDaniels likes Tebow and most expect him to rotate him on to the field in some way this season.

Whenever I read things like 'fairness' (Paige) or "not start another game"/"firmly ask for a trade" (Kizla), I just have to shake my head and remember why I am not a fan of these writers.

[Softskull]

The part where Orton would be a fool to start a game for the Broncos is just a joke. As you say, this year is Orton's chance to showcase what he can do, in a supposedly QB friendly system, because he will be a FA next year. This is a contract year, whether he was resigning with the Broncos or hitting the open market, and it's in his best interest to start as many games as possible.

I'm not for getting rid of Orton, but you assume that Orton will have a better year than last year. I personally think he's peaked. He'll have lesser quality WRs and catching TEs, rookies in his Oline and a potential QB that can take his position away. His numbers last year were his best ever. I just think his numbers will slip this year and that's not going to help Orton get the contract he's looking for.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

He's the only experienced QB on the roster, he's got more wins under his belt than the other guys have starts, I'm sure he'll be kept around this year.

[Tned]

I'm not for getting rid of Orton, but you assume that Orton will have a better year than last year. I personally think he's peaked. He'll have lesser quality WRs and catching TEs, rookies in his Oline and a potential QB that can take his position away. His numbers last year were his best ever. I just think his numbers will slip this year and that's not going to help Orton get the contract he's looking for.

But, if he's traded to Buffalo (or any other team), unless they sign him to an extension right away, based on just an ok year last year, he's in the same exact spot, possibly worse, depending on what team he goes to.

While I would love to be wrong, I think we saw from Orton last year about as much as we can expect to see from him. But, based on what we know right now, he gives us the best chance to win in '10, and Denver probably gives him the best chance to showcase his skills for a new contract (with another team) next year.

From his perspective, there are some exceptions to what I say. If Minnesota or another contender traded for him, then of course he would be going to a better team than the Broncos and could have a good year and be in line for a nice contract. But, if he is just going to go to a team where he is going to get pounded and have little to no talent around him, it's not going to help him get a new contract next year.

[EMB6903]

I'm not for getting rid of Orton, but you assume that Orton will have a better year than last year. I personally think he's peaked. He'll have lesser quality WRs and catching TEs, rookies in his Oline and a potential QB that can take his position away. His numbers last year were his best ever. I just think his numbers will slip this year and that's not going to help Orton get the contract he's looking for.

I know Brandon Marshall is gone and Orton doesnt have that elite target to throw to anymore but can you explain to me why you think a guy who has only played 1 year in Mcdaniels offense has "peaked"?

[BroncoJoe]

We've been mediocre at best for the past several years, and with or without Orton, we'll be the same this year. I say if we can get any value for him in a trade, do it. It's not like we're going to the Superbowl this year anyway.

[spikerman]

It makes a lot of sense to trade him because, let's face it, unless a LOT of things break just right for the Broncos they are most likely not a playoff caliber team this year. Might as well let the young guys learn - it would pay off more in the long run.

***EDIT - Joe beat me to it in the post above. Well said Joe!

[Softskull]

But, if he's traded to Buffalo (or any other team), unless they sign him to an extension right away, based on just an ok year last year, he's in the same exact spot, possibly worse, depending on what team he goes to.

While I would love to be wrong, I think we saw from Orton last year about as much as we can expect to see from him. But, based on what we know right now, he gives us the best chance to win in '10, and Denver probably gives him the best chance to showcase his skills for a new contract (with another team) next year.

From his perspective, there are some exceptions to what I say. If Minnesota or another contender traded for him, then of course he would be going to a better team than the Broncos and could have a good year and be in line for a nice contract. But, if he is just going to go to a team where he is going to get pounded and have little to no talent around him, it's not going to help him get a new contract next year.

I guess you're right. There aren't many places for Orton to go that would be an upgrade or would have an extension waiting for him. Unless there's an injury or unexpected retirement, I don’t see it getting much better for him next year either. Too bad, he seems like a good guy but his timing sucks. Just a year or two ago, guys like Garrard could get monster deals. I bet Orton gets up every morning and curses the collective bargaining agreement. “Damn you Upshaw. Why couldn’t you have ended it in 2015”?

[Broncolingus]

Paige thinks we should trade orton... soon.

Maybe Ray Lewis is available to comment on this too...

[Softskull]

I know Brandon Marshall is gone and Orton doesnt have that elite target to throw to anymore but can you explain to me why you think a guy who has only played 1 year in Mcdaniels offense has "peaked"?

Well, losing Marshall is huge. Marshall caught more passes than the next three WRs combined and he did that in 15 games. Orton historically has thrown to big guys in short patterns. It was Marshall here and Olson in Chicago.

From what I saw, the limitations on last years offense were several, but mostly 1) the change in the Oline and 2) Orton's inability to make the throws. Orton is just limited in what he can do. Unless he gets a bigger arm or starts hitting guys on the out patterns, there isnt much more that McDaniels can do with him. I just dont see any up side to Orton as a player. He doesnt make mistakes, can make most of the short passes and knows the playbook. He'll stay until some with better physical skills learns the playbook IMO.

[EMB6903]

Well, losing Marshall is huge. Marshall caught more passes than the next three WRs combined and he did that in 15 games. Orton historically has thrown to big guys in short patterns. It was Marshall here and Olson in Chicago.

From what I saw, the limitations on last years offense were several, but mostly 1) the change in the Oline and 2) Orton's inability to make the throws. Orton is just limited in what he can do. Unless he gets a bigger arm or starts hitting guys on the out patterns, there isnt much more that McDaniels can do with him. I just dont see any up side to Orton as a player. He doesnt make mistakes, can make most of the short passes and knows the playbook. He'll stay until some with better physical skills learns the playbook IMO.

Orton is going into the 2nd year of a new offensive system with in my opinion a improved offensive line and running game behind him. Yes he did lose Marshall a great possession WR who was a beast after the catch but couldnt stretch the field what so ever.

Im not even an Orton fan and I know hes limited as a player but to say he has peaked when he hadnt even played in this offense a full year is crazy.

[Softskull]

Orton is going into the 2nd year of a new offensive system with in my opinion a improved offensive line and running game behind him. Yes he did lose Marshall a great possession WR who was a beast after the catch but couldnt stretch the field what so ever.

Im not even an Orton fan and I know hes limited as a player but to say he has peaked when he hadnt even played in this offense a full year is crazy.

Well, he has played here for a full year. I guess we'll see, and honestly I hope youre right. But Olines with up to three rookies rarely are an improvement. Even if these guys turn out to be better players than last years crew, it could take a year or two for them to all be on the same sheet of music, certainly past Orton's reign as a Denver QB. Orton hasn't shown his ability to evade the rush. He'll get his oportunity next year. I see most changes that we've made working against Orton in the short term. He could benefit from them if he was here in 2012, but that's not likely.

[Northman]

We've been mediocre at best for the past several years, and with or without Orton, we'll be the same this year. I say if we can get any value for him in a trade, do it. It's not like we're going to the Superbowl this year anyway.

Exactly.

We are rebuilding and i believe Quinn can do whatever Orton can so if Tebow needs to sit and learn he can easily do it from Brady as well as Kyle. If someone is offering a good deal for Orton than pull the trigger. Its not like the team will be off any worse than it is right now anyway. The team is being built to win in a couple more years so whether or not Quinn or Tebow takes the reigns now or then makes no difference. If Tebow is as good as people say and as adverstised than he has the skillset and mind to handle the pressure of starting for this team. If Peyton Manning can do it than so can Tebow.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Orton is going into the 2nd year of a new offensive system with in my opinion a improved offensive line and running game behind him. Yes he did lose Marshall a great possession WR who was a beast after the catch but couldnt stretch the field what so ever.
Im not even an Orton fan and I know hes limited as a player but to say he has peaked when he hadnt even played in this offense a full year is crazy.

People keep saying this, but Marshall is plenty fast enough to get deep. Funny, I never remember seeing him getting run down from behind and I've seen him go deep plenty. Just because he didn't just run 9 routes every play like T.O. or Desean Jackson doesn't mean he's not a "deep threat". No, he's not a burner, but if Marshall was ever single covered, you throw the ball his way it doesn't matter if it's short, intermediate, or deep.

[EMB6903]

Well, he has played here for a full year. I guess we'll see, and honestly I hope youre right. But Olines with up to three rookies rarely are an improvement. Even if these guys turn out to be better players than last years crew, it could take a year or two for them to all be on the same sheet of music, certainly past Orton's reign as a Denver QB. Orton hasn't shown his ability to evade the rush. He'll get his oportunity next year. I see most changes that we've made working against Orton in the short term. He could benefit from them if he was here in 2012, but that's not likely.

Who said Denvers offensive line is going to be starting 3 rookies?

I only see 1 rookie starting on the offensive line this year which is Walton.

Having Harris back alone improves the line that much more, esspecially in passing situations.

[EMB6903]

People keep saying this, but Marshall is plenty fast enough to get deep. Funny, I never remember seeing him getting run down from behind and I've seen him go deep plenty. Just because he didn't just run 9 routes every play like T.O. or Desean Jackson doesn't mean he's not a "deep threat". No, he's not a burner, but if Marshall was ever single covered, you throw the ball his way it doesn't matter if it's short, intermediate, or deep.

Marshall definately can stretch the field with his speed. but Its just the fact that he doesnt really know how to go up and get it. I think he has soft hands and is a beast after the catch but I cant tell you how many times Ive seen Marshall have a chance at a deep ball but miss out because he doesnt know how to position himself to go up and get it at its highest point. Ball skills are just as important as speed when it comes to the deep ball.

[Tned]

Orton is going into the 2nd year of a new offensive system with in my opinion a improved offensive line and running game behind him. Yes he did lose Marshall a great possession WR who was a beast after the catch but couldnt stretch the field what so ever.

Im not even an Orton fan and I know hes limited as a player but to say he has peaked when he hadnt even played in this offense a full year is crazy.

I think an improved offensive line is only a possibility at this point, far from a given. We don't know if Clady will be ready for opening day. There is no way that Beadles or another player is going to step in and replace Clady at the same level he played.

While Hamilton lost his job to Hochstein last year, and at worse we are even at LG if Hochstein is the starter again, there is a big question as to whether Walton will be an upgrade over Wiegmann.

So, while I agree that offensive line problems last year were part of the offenses problem, and that hopefully the three guys that we drafted will eventually make the O-line better, but with Harris coming off an injury, Clady having a partially torn tendon and either two rookies or backups manning the center and left guard spots.

So, the offensive line could just as easily be worse than better, and you could argue that it is more likely to be worse.

As to the running game, I figure Moreno will be better in year two, and Buck showed he has plenty to contribute, but if the offensive line isn't better, they might struggle again.

[Tempus Fugit]

Unless there was a secret QB competition and Quinn completely destroyed Orton and has won the starting job from him already, it would be a bad idea to make this move.

[EMB6903]

Having Polumbus and Hamilton off the field should be a major improvement alone regardless whose replacing them...lol

I feel like people have completely forgotten how good Ryan Harris actually is.

I also feel like Moreno will play a huge part in how good our offensive line is this year.

We can only hope Clady comes back strong and if he does.... I feel like Denver has one of the better lines in the league.

[Softskull]

Who said Denvers offensive line is going to be starting 3 rookies?

I only see 1 rookie starting on the offensive line this year which is Walton.

Having Harris back alone improves the line that much more, esspecially in passing situations.

No one said there would be three rookies starting. We dont know who will be starting on the Oline except Kuper, and maybe Harris. I like Harris, but he's made of glass. Even if Clady does play at some point this year, it's hard to step right in after rehab. So the LT, RG and Center positions are all unknowns right now.

[Tned]

Having Polumbus and Hamilton off the field should be a major improvement alone regardless whose replacing them...lol

I feel like people have completely forgotten how good Ryan Harris actually is.

I also feel like Moreno will play a huge part in how good our offensive line is this year.

We can only hope Clady comes back strong and if he does.... I feel like Denver has one of the better lines in the league.

I haven't forgotten how good Harris is, I think he's very good. When healthy, Clady and Harris are probably the equal of any tackle pair in the league.

The problem is that Harris is coming off of two major injuries in three years. Clady may not be ready by week 1 and if he is, we don't know if he will be playing at the same form as he did his first two years. Then you have LG and C. We have no idea who are going to fill those spots and if they will outplay the guys that manned those spots last year.

[EMB6903]

No one said there would be three rookies starting. We dont know who will be starting on the Oline except Kuper, and maybe Harris. I like Harris, but he's made of glass. Even if Clady does play at some point this year, it's hard to step right in after rehab. So the LT, RG and Center positions are all unknowns right now.

a Rusty Clady is better then 80% of the league's tackles in my opinion.

He will come along slow but Ill be surprised if he doesnt step in and play come October.

[bcbronc]

keeping Orton isn't going to make us more than an 8-8 team, give or take a lucky bounce here and there, but it will take reps away from BQ, TT and TB--all of who have higher ceilings than Orton.

if we assume our goal isn't just to be "competitive" but to be the best, then keeping Orton around for one more year really accomplishes nothing. We won't be winning the division next year, and probably won't be making the playoffs (never say never, any given Sunday, yada yada yada) with or without Orton. I'm on board for acquiring an extra asset, maximizing the development of the other 3 QBs and getting the future started now.

Orton is the kind of guy who I find easy to cheer for, but he's not the kind of QB that has a future with this organization. The sooner we turn the Paige (heh) the better.

[EMB6903]

How does trading Orton this year help Denver?

and who is going to trade for Orton?

[bcbronc]

[QUOTE=EMB6903;974762]How does trading Orton this year help Denver?

What are the Broncos going to accomplish this year even with Orton?


and who is going to trade for Orton?

maybe no one. but if you can get a depth dlineman or LB or mid-round pick, all would offer more to the organization going forward than Orton will. especially when you factor in the increased reps for the other 3 QBs.

[Lonestar]

Once again we have two morons that spout something to SELL advertising space and we have lots of folks that believe it like there is no tomorrow and even more that think it is a dumb idea.


These two clowns are just that this week filling column space and that is about that.

[Tned]

Once again we have two morons that spout something to SELL advertising space and we have lots of folks that believe it like there is no tomorrow and even more that think it is a dumb idea.


These two clowns are just that this week filling column space and that is about that.

Not much else to talk about during the long offseason.

[drewloc]

Really I don't think we can go wrong either way. If we keep Orton, he is a serviceable QB who knows the system better in year 2. If we decide to trade Orton, we would get something in return for him. I'm ok with it either way, it's not a bad position to be in IMO.

[NittanyBuff24]

Agree, he is not the future, never has been, never will be!

[dogfish]

woody thinks we should trade orton soon. . .



and i wish the post would fire him now. . . .

[bcbronc]

Really I don't think we can go wrong either way. If we keep Orton, he is a serviceable QB who knows the system better in year 2. If we decide to trade Orton, we would get something in return for him. I'm ok with it either way, it's not a bad position to be in IMO.

exactly. really depends on the return. I don't think anyone is advocating dumping him for a 2012 7th rounder, but if we can get a serviceable depth player at a position of need or a mid-round pick, then move him. if not, bring him back in to add competition to the position.

imo moving him is the preferable option, but not for zero return.

[rcsodak]

I'm not for getting rid of Orton, but you assume that Orton will have a better year than last year. I personally think he's peaked. He'll have lesser quality WRs and catching TEs, rookies in his Oline and a potential QB that can take his position away. His numbers last year were his best ever. I just think his numbers will slip this year and that's not going to help Orton get the contract he's looking for.

QB's don't get worse with experience, they get better.

Having to spread the ball around will only help the offense. All apologies to BM, but the only reason he was 'the guy', is because McD had KO look to him 1st option (sometimes ONLY option).
And Sheff may be a better catching TE than what's on the field, but it's not like he was playing that much last year.

Having more targets on the field makes for more guessing by the defense.

I wonder how the records of teams are, when a wr is targeted 100+X a year. Anybody want to look?

[TiminatorTebow]

Orton may be better. None of us know that but we do know he falls down if somebodys pinky finger touches him and he doesn't move in the pocket.

[topscribe]

Paige and Kiszla . . . the sludge at the bottom of the journalist barrel . . .

-----

[TiminatorTebow]

Paige and Kiszla . . . the sludge at the bottom of the journalist barrel . . .

-----

Ahh Woodys not bad. He is right on trading Orton because Mile high is going to DEMAND better, they will DEMAND TEBOW.

[dogfish]

Paige and Kiszla . . . the sludge at the bottom of the journalist barrel . . .

-----

two shining examples of the need for some chlorine in our gene pool. . . .

[WARHORSE]

I guess its a topic of discussion.

One mans.....er.....two mens opinions of what the Broncos should do.


Not any more relevant than any of our opinions, but they just get a lot more air time on the sports paige (heh) of the Post.



We are NOT trading Orton.

Unless someone shocked everyone and gave up something we couldnt turn down, he is going to start imo.


Who would trade for Orton?


Answer: No one.

Except Chicago maybe.

He would come in as a backup.

[Softskull]

I wonder how the records of teams are, when a wr is targeted 100+X a year. Anybody want to look?

Here is the list of targeted WRs for 2009

RK PLAYER TEAM REC TAR
1 Andre Johnson, WR HOU 101 170
2 Roddy White, WR ATL 85 165
3 Wes Welker, WR NWE 123 162
4 Steve Smith, WR NYG 107 159
5 Brandon Marshall, DEN 101 154
6 Larry Fitzgerald, ARI 97 153
7 Reggie Wayne, WR IND 100 149
8 Randy Moss, WR NWE 83 138
Santonio Holmes, PIT 79 138
10 Hines Ward, WR PIT 95 137
11 Calvin Johnson, DET 67 136
12 Tony Gonzalez, TE ATL 83 135
Houshmandzadeh, SEA 79 135
14 Derrick Mason, WR BAL 73 132
Dallas Clark, TE IND 100 132
16 Steve Smith, WR CAR 65 130
17 Vernon Davis, TE SFO 78 129
18 Chad Ochocinco, CIN 72 128
19 Kellen Winslow, TE TAM 77 127
20 Anquan Boldin, WR ARI 84 126
21 Jason Witten, TE DAL 94 125
Miles Austin, WR DAL 81 125
23 Sidney Rice, WR MIN 83 122
24 Santana Moss, WR WAS 70 121
25 Greg Jennings, WR GNB 68 118
DeSean Jackson, PHI 63 118
27 Antonio Gates, TE SDG 79 114
28 Davone Bess, WR MIA 76 113
29 Donald Driver, WR GNB 70 112
Brent Celek, TE PHI 76 112
31 Mike Sims-Walker, JAC 63 110
32 Terrell Owens, WR BUF 55 109
33 Greg Olsen, TE CHI 60 108
34 Vincent Jackson, SDG 68 107
35 Marques Colston, NOR 70 106
36 Torry Holt, WR JAC 51 103
Nate Burleson, WR SEA 63 103
Ray Rice, RB BAL 78 103
39 Zach Miller, TE OAK 66 100

Seems that most teams have at least one person targeted over 100 times.

[BroncoJoe]

Look: Everyone knows Orton is not the long term solution at QB for the Broncos. If we can get any value for him, we should. Plain and simple.

Just not sure anyone is willing to give anything to get him. Which, in and of itself, says a lot.

[Ravage!!!]

Why would you get rid of Orton at this point? :confused:

He is costing you next to nothing when it comes to QB's. Also, who would be there to groom or even subtly help Quinn or Tebow???

Orton isn't going anywhere for 2010

You really think Orton is 'grooming' Quinn? Do you really want Orton to be the guy to 'groom' anyone?

If we can trade Orton and get a pick....... This is the only time to get anything in return. Rookies start at QB all over the NFL. If you moved UP in the 1st roudn to get Tebow, you have to realize that he IS going to be the starter at SOME point this season.

[Ravage!!!]

Just watch... if there is an injury during the OTC, or pre-season games..... Orton will be traded. Minnesota could be at the top of the list if Favre can't play. AZ, Jax, and Buffalo. There will be some injury somewhere.

[Tempus Fugit]

... If you moved UP in the 1st roudn to get Tebow, you have to realize that he IS going to be the starter at SOME point this season.

Why do you "have" to realize that? There's no need for Tebow to start as a rookie.

[topscribe]

Look: Everyone knows Orton is not the long term solution at QB for the Broncos. If we can get any value for him, we should. Plain and simple.

Just not sure anyone is willing to give anything to get him. Which, in and of itself, says a lot.

So you're willing to risk the season to get "value" for Orton? Say and believe what
you want about him, but you can look at the respective W-L columns for regular
season NFL games and easily see that Orton is the only proven winner on the
squad at his position . . .

-----

[Mr D]

So you're willing to risk the season to get "value" for Orton? Say and believe what
you want about him, but you can look at the respective W-L columns for regular
season NFL games and easily see that Orton is the only proven winner on the
squad at his position . . .

-----

How is Orton a representation of risking the season?

First off - only conservative/worried people are preaching to keep Orton.

Orton should be traded if the staff is confident enough in Quinn, Orton should be traded for some value. I don't think the coaching staff is sitting there looking at it in the perspective of "risking" the season.

It's about how much confidence they have in Tebow and Quinn - if they have enough in both there is no reason to keep Orton.

Orton - Quinn - Tebow - Brandstater is overkill at that QB position... it's great on paper, great competition and a great situation - but the fact is there are so many other variables to operating a team.

And :lol:@ the guy talking about Orton grooming anybody... now THAT is a joke.

[Mr D]

Lets make this clear:

1. Orton is a QB that doesn't lose games.

2. Orton has no future here.

3. The philosophy of this team is surrounded around the QB. The QB of this team is expected to LEAD and WIN games for us - not sit here and manage it and not lose it.

We have Quinn and Tebow and Brandstater

Why KEEP ORTON?

[broncofaninfla]

Orton is clearly not the future of the Denver Broncos, Tebow, Quinn and Brandstater are. If Quinn looks sharp in camp and preseason I say trade Orton and play Quinn less that 70% of the snaps this season either alternating with or slowly giving way to Tebow or even Brandstater if he looks ready. I'm not a fan of of Ortons abilities but he has been a class act here. I'd like Denver to show him the respect to let him move on with his career and trade him. I agree with both articles that ran in the Denver Post on this subject this weekend. If Quinn looks good in camp, trade Orton and start getting some game reps to the young guys. If Ortons not the guy, why keep him?

[Lonestar]

I guess I just do not see all these Limitation that everyone else seems to see.

Can't read defenses
No arm strength
Immobile


While I did not see every game those I did see did not show me anything along those things.

What I saw was a QB that out played his position considering all of the issues with the OL and injuries last year. Had a career year inspite of almost no interior pass protection and almost no ability to get a running game on a consistent basis.

If the rookies can step in and take care of these areas. IF clady comes back this year at all and plays at 90% that would be great, but I suspect he will not get back to that level in 2010.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Mr D]

We don't know if Orton is "unable" to read defenses or not - but he seemed to do fine with making line calls ... I watched all 16 games 2 live.

One issue is that he only reads 1 side of the field a good portion of the time... that could be designed though.

[SOCALORADO.]

We don't know if Orton is "unable" to read defenses or not - but he seemed to do fine with making line calls ... I watched all 16 games 2 live.

One issue is that he only reads 1 side of the field a good portion of the time... that could be designed though.

I think he was being coached up on making calls much more than you realize. I also think he won games completely based on joshs ability to call a game.
He dink'd and dunk'd alot of the time too, which allowed for some success and inflated numbers. I think Josh had 80% to do with Ortons success last year. One things for sure, coachs in CHI are plain dumb. They could have had alot more success if they understood their players better.

As for trading Orton, it really doesnt matter either way.
Orton isnt the future and the guy has to know this.
Orton has limited ability, and while he could manage a game as long as the defense plays exceptionally, he wont lead this team anywhere. And he sure as hell wont do it athletically.
Orton wont be here next year.
This is just me, but IMHO Qwinn could have done everything Orton did last year, if not more.
Having Qwinn and Tebow in a vicious battle is much more what i think MCD is looking for at QB. With a strong armed Brandstater looking over their shoulders. Brings out the best in all 3 very young QBs, which only helps both the Broncos as a whole, and each player in trade value and future success.
I think this is the "NE way" in regards to the QB position, and what MCD wants.

[weazel]

Oh the drama!!
http://www.showcaseyouth.com/Oh%20the%20Drama%203.jpg

[T.K.O.]

we should use orton to win the first 6 games.......quinn to win the next 6 and then tebow to win the final 7 !:elefant:

then trade orton !
p.s. somebody forward this "master plan" to the F.O. stat !

[TXBRONC]

I think he was being coached up on making calls much more than you realize. I also think he won games completely based on joshs ability to call a game.
He dink'd and dunk'd alot of the time too, which allowed for some success and inflated numbers. I think Josh had 80% to do with Ortons success last year. One things for sure, coachs in CHI are plain dumb. They could have had alot more success if they understood their players better.

As for trading Orton, it really doesnt matter either way.
Orton isnt the future and the guy has to know this.
Orton has limited ability, and while he could manage a game as long as the defense plays exceptionally, he wont lead this team anywhere. And he sure as hell wont do it athletically.
Orton wont be here next year.
This is just me, but IMHO Qwinn could have done everything Orton did last year, if not more.
Having Qwinn and Tebow in a vicious battle is much more what i think MCD is looking for at QB. With a strong armed Brandstater looking over their shoulders. Brings out the best in all 3 very young QBs, which only helps both the Broncos as a whole, and each player in trade value and future success.
I think this is the "NE way" in regards to the QB position, and what MCD wants.

Right now I'm not under any impression that Orton will be traded. IMHO the quarterback that is most likely not to be here is Brandstater.

[Lonestar]

let me say this one more time

Orton may not be a world beater but he will not lose games for you.

HE may not be a scrambler but most of the really great QB's where pocket passers and had great Olines, that allowed the time to pick a D apart.

I do not think he will be here past 2010 but if he has another career year (contract year) he will have served his purpose winning a few games for us NOT losing any and allowing Tebow to absorb the game plans, play book and work on his mechanics until he starts in 2011. Allow him to adjust to the NFL game speed and length of the season.

I like Orton who got put into a tough spot, following what some thought was a FQB who followed another HOF FQB. Never once complained took the blame for losses and did nothing but strive to play his ass off.
If it was not for Tebow coming down the line I would have not worries, allowing him to grow into the scheme that has created Brady and Cassell to thrive in it.

[jhildebrand]

woody thinks we should trade orton soon. . .



and i wish the post would fire him now. . . .

It would be cool if beat reporters could be traded! Just imagine Woody Paige being traded along with Josina Anderson for some scrub reporters out of El Paso and a pack of M&M's. That idea alone could help revive the newspaper industry!

[SOCALORADO.]

Right now I'm not under any impression that Orton will be traded. IMHO the quarterback that is most likely not to be here is Brandstater.

Not if MCD can get a player or pick for Orton now.

[Lonestar]

It would be cool if beat reporters could be traded! Just imagine Woody Paige being traded along with Josina Anderson for some scrub reporters out of El Paso and a pack of M&M's. That idea alone could help revive the newspaper industry!


We do not have scrub reporters in ELP trust me when the sunday sports page is 4 pages long.

Now we do have some decent high school guys. I do not even read the local rag anymore.

Most of the input into the times is cut and pasted from the AP wires. Almost no local journalism here at all, over the past 3-4 years..

[TXBRONC]

Not if MCD can get a player or pick for Orton now.

As I said, right now I'm not under the impression that he will trade Orton. If McDaniels trades Orton for a player it will be for one of equal value, which means it's a journeyman for a journeyman. If its for a pick imo it would be a late round pick so I don't know if that would be worth it to McDaniels.

[SOCALORADO.]

As I said, right now I'm not under the impression that he will trade Orton. If McDaniels trades Orton for a player it will be for one of equal value, which means it's a journeyman for a journeyman. If its for a pick imo it would be a late round pick so I don't know if that would be worth it to McDaniels.

"Basically what i am saying is that i'm kinda a big deal around here, and i know that orton is gonna be traded."

http://www.pimpyourfinances.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/ron_burgundy.bmp

[Tned]

let me say this one more time

Orton may not be a world beater but he will not lose games for you.

HE may not be a scrambler but most of the really great QB's where pocket passers and had great Olines, that allowed the time to pick a D apart.

I do not think he will be here past 2010 but if he has another career year (contract year) he will have served his purpose winning a few games for us NOT losing any and allowing Tebow to absorb the game plans, play book and work on his mechanics until he starts in 2011. Allow him to adjust to the NFL game speed and length of the season.

I like Orton who got put into a tough spot, following what some thought was a FQB who followed another HOF FQB. Never once complained took the blame for losses and did nothing but strive to play his ass off.
If it was not for Tebow coming down the line I would have not worries, allowing him to grow into the scheme that has created Brady and Cassell to thrive in it.

I agree. If Quinn or Tebow beat him out in training camp for the starting job, I am all for them starting. However, I think it would be a mistake to trade Orton when it isn't clear that either of them are ready/capable of starting and winning this year.

Unlike some, I am not ready to go ahead and write this year off and therefore say it doesn't matter who's the QB. There is no reason why we can't compete for the division or a wild card spot this year.

[Lonestar]

I agree. If Quinn or Tebow beat him out in training camp for the starting job, I am all for them starting. However, I think it would be a mistake to trade Orton when it isn't clear that either of them are ready/capable of starting and winning this year.

Unlike some, I am not ready to go ahead and write this year off and therefore say it doesn't matter who's the QB. There is no reason why we can't compete for the division or a wild card spot this year.


Barring a total collapse of the OLINE I think we will be fine. Which is a total possibility as KNEE fixes rarely come back at 100% till the next year IF then.



Having a complete shuffle of the OLINE with perhaps only KUPER being in the same spot could cause a bit of confusion over the year.

[Tned]

Barring a total collapse of the OLINE I think we will be fine. Which is a total possibility as KNEE fixes rarely come back at 100% till the next year IF then.



Having a complete shuffle of the OLINE with perhaps only KUPER being in the same spot could cause a bit of confusion over the year.

Yea, Clady's health, and to a lesser extent Harris's (only because he should be healed), are going to go a long way to how good or bad the line is. If Clady is near 100%, and Harris and Kuper are full strength on the right side, then it would seem at worse we are no worse than last year (assuming we can get at least the same level of play Wiegmann gave us), but if Clady is gone at the beginning of the year or hampered by the injury, all best are off.

[Softskull]

Gregg Rosenthal from PFW's comment on this is that we'd be foolish to get rid of Orton since he may still be our best QB in two years.

[Lonestar]

Yea, Clady's health, and to a lesser extent Harris's (only because he should be healed), are going to go a long way to how good or bad the line is. If Clady is near 100%, and Harris and Kuper are full strength on the right side, then it would seem at worse we are no worse than last year (assuming we can get at least the same level of play Wiegmann gave us), but if Clady is gone at the beginning of the year or hampered by the injury, all best are off.

I have yet to see a KNEE with this kind of surgery (except Stink of course) that is ready to go in 3-6 months as for Harris well I just do not have a lot of long term faith he can stay injury free either. Kind a thought that Zane was drafted to replace him when it happened. Still think that is the plan after all harris should be a RFA next year also. Maybe UFA if they get a CBA in place.

I think unless these OG and OC we drafted completely stink we should be very strong there. a major upgrade over years past.

[T.K.O.]

Why trading Kyle Orton makes no sense
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on May 10, 2010 1:44 PM ET
Kyle Orton's career year (3,800 yards, 62% completions, 21:12 TD: INT, 7 YPA) didn't win him a lot of respect in Denver's front office based on the Broncos' offseason moves.

The lack of appreciation is now extending into the media.

A sample from Sunday's Denver Post:

Mike Kizla says Orton would have "rocks for brains" to start another game for the Broncos, and should quietly request a trade.

"Why should Orton stick around and be a clown in the Tim Tebow circus?" Kizla asks.

Woody Paige says the team needs to deal the "Deberg-like" Orton. He is apparently "not a true leader. . . . Orton's soft attitude didn't motivate his teammates. . . . Orton is not a short-term fix or a long-range fit for the Broncos."

We don't agree with either position. Orton's best chance for a big contract elsewhere would be to perform well under McDaniels in Denver. He has the inside track on a starting job to open the season. He'd be crazy to want to leave now to be a backup elsewhere.

Trading Orton sounds good for Denver, but who is giving up anything for him at this point? We can't imagine a team that would invest in Orton. We'd argue that keeping Orton around for another year and retaining his rights is more valuable than some sixth-round pick.

Finally, Orton knows McDaniels' system well and he's the best quarterback on the roster.

Here's a scary notion for Denver: he might still be the best quarterback in two years.

[jhildebrand]

We do not have scrub reporters in ELP trust me when the sunday sports page is 4 pages long.

Now we do have some decent high school guys. I do not even read the local rag anymore.

Most of the input into the times is cut and pasted from the AP wires. Almost no local journalism here at all, over the past 3-4 years..

Perfect! Then trade Woody and Josina for those guys. We can sell their character and upside to the fanbase. Also, nobody will really miss Josina and people will get over Paige. :lol:

[Thnikkaman]

Perfect! Then trade Woody and Josina for those guys. We can sell their character and upside to the fanbase. Also, nobody will really miss Josina and people will get over Paige. :lol:

I think I can get a pack of tic-tacs on the trade market for Josina. I'll take it in a heartbeat.

[BigBroncLove]

Oh... even crappy hacks in the journalism game get something right every once in a while, IMO this time the two biggest hacks at the Denver post missed that mark by a couple of miles.

Before I actually touch on the real subject I want to say this about the two journalists. Paige is in love with Tebow and Kiszla wants to make sweet man love to Quinn. Both are enthralled with QB's behind Orton.... so yeah... this is impartial journalism on their part without a doubt. :lol:

Also lets not forget a few days before the draft Paige likened the NFL to the Roman Empire and the Broncos under McDaniels to Pompey with the Chargers playing the part of Caesar. We all know how that triumvirate played out, with Pompey beheaded at the hands of the Egyptians and Caesar father of the Roman empire. I think that metaphor speaks fairly clearly about how Paige feels about the Broncos under McDaniels. I invest as much into Paige's overstated opinion as I would into Enron in 2001.

As for the actual trade, I think it could end up being a very clear miscalculation. It's all been said before me in the thread, but I'll repeat a few. You cannot place the Broncos 2010 fate into the hands of a player with as inconsistent a record as Quinn or as raw as Tebow or Brandstater without someone behind them that can clearly step in and get the job done. It's not about security, its about winning. Tebow, Quinn, i'll even say Brandstater all could possibly step in and do a better then Orton, but its equally probable (if not slightly more so) that Orton will outplay them all in 2010. Like it or not Orton at the moment is the lead horse in a four horse race. To go back to an old saying, you don't win the kentucky derby by leaving your lead horse in the stable. Except were not leaving him in the stable, were sending the lead horse to the glue factory. I don't see how reducing competition at a position that looks to be mounting for an all out position competition will increase the Broncos chances to win. Plus we are talking chicken feed trade compensation for Orton at this point. As I see it there is no real upside to this whole trade idea other then making it clear that one of the two recipients of Paige's and Kiszla personal man love will be the man behind center.

[arapaho2]

I have yet to see a KNEE with this kind of surgery (except Stink of course) that is ready to go in 3-6 months as for Harris well I just do not have a lot of long term faith he can stay injury free either. Kind a thought that Zane was drafted to replace him when it happened. Still think that is the plan after all harris should be a RFA next year also. Maybe UFA if they get a CBA in place.

I think unless these OG and OC we drafted completely stink we should be very strong there. a major upgrade over years past.

the dude had a toe injury (harris)...he played the entire 08 season

thats not really a sign of being injury prone...unless ortons inability to play a season without injury is also

i believe that beadles was drafted to take the LG position...period

clady..beadles..walton...kuper..harris....now i like that lineup

[Tned]

the dude had a toe injury (harris)...he played the entire 08 season

thats not really a sign of being injury prone...unless ortons inability to play a season without injury is also

i believe that beadles was drafted to take the LG position...period

clady..beadles..walton...kuper..harris....now i like that lineup

He also missed part of '07 with a back injury/surgery? Is he injury prone? Hard to say, but he's missed two large chunks of his three seasons in the league.

[jhildebrand]

I think I can get a pack of tic-tacs on the trade market for Josina. I'll take it in a heartbeat.

Red tic tacs- Pull the trigger and do the deal now!

White tic tacs-48 hours to think about it

Green Tic Tacs and a pack of gum-Go for it.

Orange tic tacs- NO WAY. :tsk:

[Lonestar]

the dude had a toe injury (harris)...he played the entire 08 season

thats not really a sign of being injury prone...unless ortons inability to play a season without injury is also

i believe that beadles was drafted to take the LG position...period

clady..beadles..walton...kuper..harris....now i like that lineup

IIRC he has played in only 50% of the games he has been eligible to play in.

Hardly someone I want protecting the blindside of our FQB in waiting. IMHO

While he played well when in the games he was in for he played well but then culled some of that also been the scheme and having Kuper next to him?


I did not see him as being overpowering last season until he was placed on IR again.

IMHO he was overrated because of the scheme he played in in 2008.

Let the competition begin, for who starts down the road.

[Tned]

IIRC he has played in only 50% of the games he has been eligible to play in.

Hardly someone I want protecting the blindside of our FQB in waiting. IMHO

While he played well when in the games he was in for he played well but then culled some of that also been the scheme and having Kuper next to him?


I did not see him as being overpowering last season until he was placed on IR again.

IMHO he was overrated because of the scheme he played in in 2008.

Let the competition begin, for who starts down the road.

I think he missed 5 games in '07 following his back surgery, and most/all of last year (can't remember when that second toe injury happened).

He played great in '08, but it's hard to know if it was scheme, him or a combo. I know that Clady and Harris were 1 and 3 in the league in terms of runs going behind them in '08. Again, them or the scheme?

My 'hope' is that since they were two completely different injuries, first a back injury requiring surgery, and then a toe injury, that it was bad luck and not an indication that he will miss a lot of time with recurring injuries.

[Lonestar]

I think he missed 5 games in '07 following his back surgery, and most/all of last year (can't remember when that second toe injury happened).

He played great in '08, but it's hard to know if it was scheme, him or a combo. I know that Clady and Harris were 1 and 3 in the league in terms of runs going behind them in '08. Again, them or the scheme?

My 'hope' is that since they were two completely different injuries, first a back injury requiring surgery, and then a toe injury, that it was bad luck and not an indication that he will miss a lot of time with recurring injuries.

I stand corrected


Season Team G GS
2009 Denver Broncos 8 8
2008 Denver Broncos 16 16
2007 Denver Broncos 11 0
TOTAL 35 24

not 50% like I thought it was, but 66% still not what I would consider reliable.

YET IF you look at it in this manner he has been on the team for 3 years that is 48 games and he has only played in 24 so that was how I came up with 50% initially.

Also was it the scheme at the time or was it HArris, I have always believed that Zane was taken in the draft to cover tebows blindside once we drafted Tebow it was more than just picking up a SPARE OT as Polumbus was not earth shaking there also last year.

But then Zane may have been Harris's planned replacement as he will become a RFA next year also or UFA if they get a new CBA.

Who knows what lurks in the minds of evil HC's, only the shadow.

[TXBRONC]

I know a lot of you guys don't like Woody or Kizla and understand why but I think at times they say things that are plausible. With the way things have played out so and how McDaniels has spoken about Tebow I think it's possible that he would let Tebow start if he feels the king is far enough along to handle the position. I'm saying that I agree but it is possible.

[T.K.O.]

I know a lot of you guys don't like Woody or Kizla and understand why but I think at times they say things that are plausible. With the way things have played out so and how McDaniels has spoken about Tebow I think it's possible that he would let Tebow start if he feels the king is far enough along to handle the position. I'm saying that I agree but it is possible.

even if tebow somehow gets the starting nod....it would be dumb to trade orton.
paige is using the "it's the right thing to do" theory.
wake the f*&^ up woody this is the nfl.if you've learned nothing else in the last year it should be that josh knows "it's a business" and you dont make decisions to "be nice"
having a vet with a solid knowledge of the system is mandatory if you expect to compete for 16 games and beyond.
orton (if nothing else) is a reasonably priced insurance policy in case either or both new additions stink it up or get hurt. training camp and the preseason show very little as to how a player might perform in real games(see chris simms)
that's basic stuff.....move on:salute:

[TXBRONC]

even if tebow somehow gets the starting nod....it would be dumb to trade orton.
paige is using the "it's the right thing to do" theory.
wake the f*&^ up woody this is the nfl.if you've learned nothing else in the last year it should be that josh knows "it's a business" and you dont make decisions to "be nice"
having a vet with a solid knowledge of the system is mandatory if you expect to compete for 16 games and beyond.
orton (if nothing else) is a reasonably priced insurance policy in case either or both new additions stink it up or get hurt. training camp and the preseason show very little as to how a player might perform in real games(see chris simms)
that's basic stuff.....move on:salute:

If I were McDaniels wouldn't either for the reasons that you cited. That being said I'm just saying is that it is plausable.

[Elevation inc]

blah blah blah its tim tebow time just get used to it already people.....its gonna happen just like it did with jay coming in for plummer.....now we just have to see if Tebow gets it quicker than wonder boy in chicago.... :lol:





I SURE AS HELL HOPE SO.....FOR ALL OF DENVER FAN'S SAKE.....

[SOCALORADO.]

I gotta agree with Elevation here a bit.
Its Tebow time, and Orton is just a distraction.
I dont think MCD wants to trade his Cassell projects in Qwinn and Brandstater.
IMHO i think that MCD thinks Tebow is already close to being able to preform for him, and if the poop hits the fan, its OK cause Tebow has all the athletic ability in the world to make something happen.
I just dont think MCD is worried about Tebow at all, and Orton is on his way out.

Also, it wouldnt suprise me in the least if MCD/DEN FO leaked the possibility of a trade to those guys to sort of prepare everyone for the inevitable.

[arapaho2]

He also missed part of '07 with a back injury/surgery? Is he injury prone? Hard to say, but he's missed two large chunks of his three seasons in the league.


i believe he had that issue when he was drafted..he had surgery in preseason and and didnt make it back until week six ....but he started every game in college 45 consecutive games without missing

so he had a back injury..which may or may not have been already there if im not mistaken...missed five games as a rookie, before starting all 16 games of the 08 season

last year he dislocated a toe...came back and reinjured it...ask deon how hard it is to play with a toe injury

i dont think thats injury prone

[Ravage!!!]

There really is no reason to keep Orton. Is Orton really that much better than Quinn? No. He's certainly not as athletic as Quinn. We are just waiting for the day to put Tebow in as the starter, anyways.

Tebow would be better off getting on the field as the starter as quickly as possible. Thats the best way to learn. So we aren't just going to let him ride the pine, and its not like Orton is some guy that a rookie would just LOVE to sit behind. If we can trade Orton and get ANYTHING... do it. We aren't losing anything, and at least we'll be getting something rather than not getting anything next year.

[arapaho2]

IIRC he has played in only 50% of the games he has been eligible to play in.

Hardly someone I want protecting the blindside of our FQB in waiting. IMHO

While he played well when in the games he was in for he played well but then culled some of that also been the scheme and having Kuper next to him?


I did not see him as being overpowering last season until he was placed on IR again.

IMHO he was overrated because of the scheme he played in in 2008.

Let the competition begin, for who starts down the road.

wait now havent i been seeing all the orton and mcd nutthumpers proclaiming the trouble on offense was based on the oline because weigman and ham were suckfests and we lost ryan harris?

now suddenly harris was a product of the zone blocking scheme? OH AND BECAUSE KUPER MADE HIM BETTER?

Weird how that zone blocking RUN scheme allowed harris to give up a mere 2.5 sacks in 08...one sack every 431 drop backs

as for kuper...why didnt he make polumbus better?

in 09 harris still managed i sack per 420 drop backs
polumbus was an average 1 sack per 134 drop backs

to keep things in perspective

in 08 with a mobile nimble qb
harris gave up 1 sack per 431 drop backs
clady gave up a miniscule..1 sack per 1079 drop backs..

we still managed to be ranked 3rd in the league in rushing per attempt despite losing six consecutive rbs

in 09 with a new scheme..slow immobile qb

harris still averaged ..1 sack per 420 drop backs..his replacement gave up 1 sack per 134 drop backs
clady came down to earth with a still good...1 sack per 137 drop backs

so in both schemes harris preformed great...to sayu he is a product of the guy next to him or the scheme is assinine

[Elevation inc]

wait now havent i been seeing all the orton and mcd nutthumpers proclaiming the trouble on offense was based on the oline because weigman and ham were suckfests and we lost ryan harris?

now suddenly harris was a product of the zone blocking scheme? OH AND BECAUSE KUPER MADE HIM BETTER?

Weird how that zone blocking RUN scheme allowed harris to give up a mere 2.5 sacks in 08...one sack every 431 drop backs

as for kuper...why didnt he make polumbus better?

in 09 harris still managed i sack per 420 drop backs
polumbus was an average 1 sack per 134 drop backs

to keep things in perspective

in 08 with a mobile nimble qb
harris gave up 1 sack per 431 drop backs
clady gave up a miniscule..1 sack per 1079 drop backs..

we still managed to be ranked 3rd in the league in rushing per attempt despite losing six consecutive rbs

in 09 with a new scheme..slow immobile qb

harris still averaged ..1 sack per 420 drop backs..his replacement gave up 1 sack per 134 drop backs
clady came down to earth with a still good...1 sack per 137 drop backs

so in both schemes harris preformed great...to sayu he is a product of the guy next to him or the scheme is assinine

i agree in some context with this....Harris is not a issue for this team outside the concern of his injuries the last couple years, his loss last year was devestating for the RT side...kuper having no help from polumbus was downright ugly for the RT side......and weigman just couldnt hack the big dogs no more being 285 and 35 years old...and hamilton hasnt been good since before his concussion year


i will also say though people need to give this YPC thing a break here, its horrible how people use that to compare 2 guys with different carrie amounts, different running styles and different situations in which they got the rock....

[arapaho2]

i agree in some context with this....Harris is not a issue for this team outside the concern of his injuries the last couple years, his loss last year was devestating for the RT side...kuper having no help from polumbus was downright ugly for the RT side......and weigman just couldnt hack the big dogs no more being 285 and 35 years old...and hamilton hasnt been good since before his concussion year


i will also say though people need to give this YPC thing a break here, its horrible how people use that to compare 2 guys with different carrie amounts, different running styles and different situations in which they got the rock....


my only concern with the ypc was simply to show we still on paper ran the ball good...i think our actual run game in 2008 was terrible and the main reason we forced cutler to shoulder the offense

but for some to always push blame unto the oline without taking in account the negative effect orton had on pass blocking

people aslo dont take in account the scheme

when the qb lines up in the shotgun 323 times..but only hands the ball off 41 times...it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out...the theres a 87% chance its a pass play..tee off

when we line up in a traditional lone set back formation orton under center...433 times...but it was a balanced 56.5 % of the time it was a run...

20 of his sacks and 7 of the ints came from shotgun..a shotgun is used to buy a qb more time, survey the field...see the defense...with orton it didnt work to great

i think harris did very well not only in the zbs but in his time last year...

[Elevation inc]

my only concern with the ypc was simply to show we still on paper ran the ball good...i think our actual run game in 2008 was terrible and the main reason we forced cutler to shoulder the offense

but for some to always push blame unto the oline without taking in account the negative effect orton had on pass blocking

people aslo dont take in account the scheme

when the qb lines up in the shotgun 323 times..but only hands the ball off 41 times...it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out...the theres a 87% chance its a pass play..tee off

when we line up in a traditional lone set back formation orton under center...433 times...but it was a balanced 56.5 % of the time it was a run...

20 of his sacks and 7 of the ints came from shotgun..a shotgun is used to buy a qb more time, survey the field...see the defense...with orton it didnt work to great

i think harris did very well not only in the zbs but in his time last year...


Clady, harris, kuper, and hochstein werent the issue last year for the run game the problems lied with polumbus, hamilton, and weigman mostly its a fact maybe not the OL as a whole but those inside guys and polumbus left moreno and bucky hanging so many times...moreno did worse becasue he had the larger amount of carries........and yes orton was another reason as well i hope he leaves denver in the near future.....:salute:

[Tned]

Clady, harris, kuper, and hochstein werent the issue last year for the run game the problems lied with polumbus, hamilton, and weigman mostly its a fact maybe not the OL as a whole but those inside guys and polumbus left moreno and bucky hanging so many times...moreno did worse becasue he had the larger amount of carries........and yes orton was another reason as well i hope he leaves denver in the near future.....:salute:

I'm not saying the line wasn't a problem, as they were, especially in short yardage situations. However, the different between Moreno and Buck wasn't just the number of carries. We all watched plenty of games where Buck would be in a series gaining 5-10 yards on nearly every carry, and then the next series Moreno would be in and be lucky to get 3 a carry.

[arapaho2]

and that was only compounded by the coaches refusal to play the back actually doing better in the run game, and sticking to moreno

[WARHORSE]

Trading Orton at this point would be beyond stupid.

There is no guarantee that either Quinn or Tebow is going to be able to come in and run the offense at the same level as Orton did last year.


To assume as much would be for McDaniels to assume he has a job next year.



Orton isnt going anywhere.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Trading Orton at this point would be beyond stupid.

There is no guarantee that either Quinn or Tebow is going to be able to come in and run the offense at the same level as Orton did last year.


To assume as much would be for McDaniels to assume he has a job next year.



Orton isnt going anywhere.

While that's true, there's also no guarantee that Orton can "run the offense" any better than he did at the end of last season. He no longer has Marshall as his safety valve and from what I saw of Orton without Marshall (week 17) I wasn't exactly flooded with hope for the future with him at the helm. People say we lost because we couldn't stop the run... well 3 turnovers (2 returned for TDs) didn't exactly help either.

Nobody knows if any of the rookies will really contribute, either. Will our defense be better? We hope so, but there are no guarantees especially with a new DC. Will our O-line be better? Maybe, but we're relying on at least one rookie coming in pretty much from day 1.

I think Orton will be the day one starter, but I think it will only take one bad game before he quickly gets the hook.

[DenBronx]

I don't see the point in keeping Orton other than us wanting a mediocre QB to play while 3 future prospects are held back another year. No way Orton or any of the QB's we have gets us 10+ wins next year. So, I'd say trade Orton now while he does have value and we can actually get something in return.

I think Quinn can win the starting job while Tebow will learn and maybe come in a few plays. Tebow needs to see the field this year. Having Orton only handy caps the team for another year. We are seriously limited to what we can do on offense with him under center.

[dogfish]

Is Orton really that much better than Quinn? No.

yes!

[Elevation inc]

I'm not saying the line wasn't a problem, as they were, especially in short yardage situations. However, the different between Moreno and Buck wasn't just the number of carries. We all watched plenty of games where Buck would be in a series gaining 5-10 yards on nearly every carry, and then the next series Moreno would be in and be lucky to get 3 a carry.

i also watched a few dud games by bucky, and he also again couldnt stay healthy....AGAIN!!!! so lets not get carried away annointing him as this wonderful back either....but dogging a rookie whos been in the NFL all but a year now....come on.....its clear he needs to improve....but damn maybe im the only one happy we finally have a decent runner since portis back in 2002.....:lol:

as i stated before....again lets bring back selvin and his 5.4 YPC since he looked nasty to at times in between the 20's.....

[TXBRONC]

While that's true, there's also no guarantee that Orton can "run the offense" any better than he did at the end of last season. He no longer has Marshall as his safety valve and from what I saw of Orton without Marshall (week 17) I wasn't exactly flooded with hope for the future with him at the helm. People say we lost because we couldn't stop the run... well 3 turnovers (2 returned for TDs) didn't exactly help either.

Nobody knows if any of the rookies will really contribute, either. Will our defense be better? We hope so, but there are no guarantees especially with a new DC. Will our O-line be better? Maybe, but we're relying on at least one rookie coming in pretty much from day 1.

I think Orton will be the day one starter, but I think it will only take one bad game before he quickly gets the hook.

If we're in chase for a playoff spot and Orton has a bad game I'd know if McDaniels would give him the hook quite that fast. However if Orton preforms like he did in the second half of last season 12 tds, and 11 ints, then it wont take long for him to be carrying a clip board.

[Lonestar]

wait now havent i been seeing all the orton and mcd nutthumpers proclaiming the trouble on offense was based on the oline because weigman and ham were suckfests and we lost ryan harris?

now suddenly harris was a product of the zone blocking scheme? OH AND BECAUSE KUPER MADE HIM BETTER?

Weird how that zone blocking RUN scheme allowed harris to give up a mere 2.5 sacks in 08...one sack every 431 drop backs

as for kuper...why didnt he make polumbus better?

in 09 harris still managed i sack per 420 drop backs
polumbus was an average 1 sack per 134 drop backs

to keep things in perspective

in 08 with a mobile nimble qb
harris gave up 1 sack per 431 drop backs
clady gave up a miniscule..1 sack per 1079 drop backs..

we still managed to be ranked 3rd in the league in rushing per attempt despite losing six consecutive rbs

in 09 with a new scheme..slow immobile qb

harris still averaged ..1 sack per 420 drop backs..his replacement gave up 1 sack per 134 drop backs
clady came down to earth with a still good...1 sack per 137 drop backs

so in both schemes harris preformed great...to sayu he is a product of the guy next to him or the scheme is assinine

Guessing you have never played on the OLINE. Or you might undrstand how much the guy left and right of you makes or breaks your blocking scheme.

Why do you think KC kicked our asses for almost adeacade running th ball and giving Trnt Green all the time in the world. It was becausr they had some dmaned fine tAlent and they played sisde ny side for almost a DEcade with out a change. It was the sum of all the parts of it not ONE super stud that made them great.

Harris was great in 08 bit then the entire OLINE all started every game and subistutions were minimal during the year.
Last year hamilton sucked and casey had no help from either side.

The got fired because they could not do the basic thing a OL must do BLOCK one on one. Those are the facts of life like them or not.

Now we have the makings of a great OLINE that has talent others would have taken had we not got them first. Let's se how long it will take them to gel.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Ravage!!!]

i also watched a few dud games by bucky, and he also again couldnt stay healthy....AGAIN!!!! so lets not get carried away annointing him as this wonderful back either....but dogging a rookie whos been in the NFL all but a year now....come on.....its clear he needs to improve....but damn maybe im the only one happy we finally have a decent runner since portis back in 2002.....:lol:

as i stated before....again lets bring back selvin and his 5.4 YPC since he looked nasty to at times in between the 20's.....

Lets not sit there and give the excuse that he was a "rookie." RB is the EASIEST position to play as a rookie in the NFL, and we've seen time and time and time and time and time again where rookie RBs come in and perform just fine. Even when they aren't 1st round picks.

As of right now... I can't see how anyone can say that we have a "decent runner".. or even come CLOSE to comparing him to Portis, when Moreno performed with such mediocrisy (at best)... and was flat out-performed by a RB that you are attempting to knock down. Bucky looked like a super star compared to Moreno, and when you are a RB taken in top 12 and had as much hype....it should be the other way around. Rookie or not.

[Ravage!!!]

Trading Orton at this point would be beyond stupid.

There is no guarantee that either Quinn or Tebow is going to be able to come in and run the offense at the same level as Orton did last year.


To assume as much would be for McDaniels to assume he has a job next year.



Orton isnt going anywhere.

Or for McD to assume he's going to be playing for a job. He absolutely has to justify these moves.

Trading Cutler for Orton. Now... he picked Orton over Campbell because Orton was supposed to be the better QB. So he took the less in pick-position, to get Orton. That lasted a single year before he chose to then draft a franchise QB to replace Orton. That means, in essence, McD decided to take the lesser picks for a one year rental. So you can either say that McD OVER-evaluated Orton or under-evaluated Campbell as a one-year rental.

That being said.. taking Tebow is going to have to show dividends NOW. The coach can't simply wait around and 'hope' he has a job next season. Like you said, he can't assume he has a job next season... thus he MUST justify these moves and taking Tebow. The only way to do that, is to get him on the field.

If he trades Orton away, he can simply say "Tebow is so smart, he understands the system as well as any Qb on the roster. He won the starting job." The followers will believe his words that it was an "open competition" and Tebow won the job. Thus we are "just as good with Tebow" as we would have been with Orton. We trade Orton away so that there is NO distractions.. no calling for the back-up..and no chance of Orton coming in for injury and out playing Tebow thus causing the QB controversy.

I'm betting Orton is traded soon, right before the official TCs. Figuring that if Tebow really struggles, we still have Quinn to fall back on. Right now, Orton is the only one that could cause a QB controversy and has a tiny bit of value.

[Tned]

i also watched a few dud games by bucky, and he also again couldnt stay healthy....AGAIN!!!! so lets not get carried away annointing him as this wonderful back either....but dogging a rookie whos been in the NFL all but a year now....come on.....its clear he needs to improve....but damn maybe im the only one happy we finally have a decent runner since portis back in 2002.....:lol:

as i stated before....again lets bring back selvin and his 5.4 YPC since he looked nasty to at times in between the 20's.....

I am not 'dogging' the rookie. I am happy with Moreno and think he will be a good back, which I have said in this thread. However, those that are blaming his lack of production completely on the O-line are living in a fantasy world OR didn't watch the games and are making incorrect assumptions.

Another innacuracy in your post. I did not annoint Buckhalter as wonderful. Quite the contrary, I am pointing out the fact that Buckhalter having a good season, and routinely producing in games where Moreno didn't, indicates the problem clearly was not the O-line, but a rookie struggling, due to the fact that Buckhalter isn't a dominant back.

[Softskull]

Lets not sit there and give the excuse that he was a "rookie." RB is the EASIEST position to play as a rookie in the NFL, and we've seen time and time and time and time and time again where rookie RBs come in and perform just fine. Even when they aren't 1st round picks.

As of right now... I can't see how anyone can say that we have a "decent runner".. or even come CLOSE to comparing him to Portis, when Moreno performed with such mediocrisy (at best)... and was flat out-performed by a RB that you are attempting to knock down. Bucky looked like a super star compared to Moreno, and when you are a RB taken in top 12 and had as much hype....it should be the other way around. Rookie or not.

Generally I agree with you. But look at the list of RBs picked in the top 15 this decade. How many on this list do you think were worth the top round pick?

09 Moreno(12)
08 McFadden (4)
08 Stewart (13)
07 Peterson (8)
07 Lynch (12)
06 Bush (2)
05 R Brown (2)
05 Benson (4)
05 Cadillac (5)
01 Tomlinson (5)
00 Lewis (5)
00 T Jones (7)
00 Dayne (11)

I personally agree with the Shanahan philosophy that RBs get picked after the first round.

[TXBRONC]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15075280


Woody's Mailbag: Majority rules, send Orton away
By Woody Paige
The Denver Post
Posted: 05/13/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT

Woody, you made some interesting arguments in your Kyle Orton article on Sunday, but what makes you think that Kyle Orton wants out of Denver? If he was a free agent right now, I don't think that anybody would give him a big money contract. If I were Kyle Orton I would just bite my tongue and try to have my best season ever. In my opinion, staying in Denver for one more season is his best shot at earning the type of free-agent contract that he covets.
Eric, Aurora

Eric: Based on the (unscientific) poll by The Denver Post, at last count, nearly 10,000 had responded to the question of whether Orton should stay or go, and more than 70 percent said go.

So I think I wrote a column that a strong majority apparently agrees with. The vocal minority has written and called me every name but the one my mother gave me. So there is a wide-ranging variance of opinions.

It always happens with quarterbacks, the most prominent position in team sports.

I said Kyle Orton should welcome to the chance to go somewhere else and start over. I'm sure that Orton disagrees. He would prefer to stay here, start at quarterback, have a great season and get a five, year $50 million contract as a free agent from the Broncos or some other team.

But, in my opinion, and that's what it is, the Broncos have three young quarterbacks who are the future of this franchise.

They should be given the reps in voluntary minicamps, in offseason activities, at camp in July and in the exhibition games. Let the best quarterback emerge as No. 1. If Orton remains the No. 1 quarterback, he will get the most reps, will play, at least to begin with, this season and will be gone next season — because the Broncos are not going to bring in Brady Quinn and Tim Tebow and let them sit on the bench for two, three, four, five seasons, or even one.
(And they're not going to pay three quarterbacks the kind of money it would take for 2011, which some people tend to forget.)

Brady Quinn has busted it since he has gotten here, and I'm sure you've read that Josh McDaniels told me that Tebow will play "sooner than later" and that the people who think he won't play for two or three seasons are wrong.

Quinn, as I wrote before, got lousy coaching at Cleveland. When I asked McDaniels about that, he said he wouldn't get into it.

But I'm certain that Quinn and Tebow, two incredibly hard workers, will push each other to be better, will try to beat each other in the dark to the Broncos' practice field every day, beginning this week and to the end of the season.

They are smart enough to understand this system, can play, will improve (as Orton did) under the tutelage of McDaniels (who worked with Tom Brady and Matt Cassel, and look what happened to Cassel when he went to Kansas City) and offensive coordinator Mike McCoy (who helped Jake Delhomme become a Pro Bowl quarterback, and notice what happened to Delhomme last year after McCoy left) and new quarterback coach Ben McDaniels (who had studied under his older brother and has many of the same fiery qualities).

Quinn and Tebow ultimately, in my opinion, give the Broncos a tandem they haven't had since Elway & Kubiak. They may both play a lot here, and if Tom Brandstater develops, one of the three eventually may go somewhere else.
It is said if you have two quarterbacks, you have none. If you have four quarterbacks, you have a coal car of trouble.

The Broncos want to develop Quinn and Tebow. I don't think the Broncos traded for Quinn to think he would be another Simms-type backup.

I don't think the Broncos drafted Tebow if they thought if he would sit around for three years.

If the Broncos were so in love with Orton, why not give him a long-term contract now and settle the issue?

If the Broncos were in love with Orton, why go get two big-name, promising quarterbacks? A lot of the same people who wanted Jay Cutler out of here love Orton. (They had similar 8-8 and 7-9 seasons).

Do people who like the Broncos want to settle for mediocrity? Do they want another John Elway? Don't they deserve to have one who can be MVP in the Big Game?

Do they believe Orton can win the Super Bowl? Look at the Super Bowl-winning quarterbacks. In 16 of the past 18 Super Bowls the winning team had a Hall of Fame quarterback or a potential Hall of Fame quarterback or an elite Pro Bowl quarterback. Brad Johnson of Tampa Bay and Trent Dilfer of Baltimore, the two exceptions, had two of the greatest defenses of the past quarter century.

At least 30 of the 44 winning quarterbacks in the Super Bowl are in the Hall of Fame or have a serious opportunity to reach Canton.

Orton will never be in the Hall of Fame, honestly. He was at least eighth on the list for the Pro Bowl from the AFC last year (because the league finally got down to David Garrard, who was seventh, and he's no great shakes, and Orton was considered to be next on the list if anybody else dropped out).

Orton's arm will never get stronger. The Broncos do not have one of the best defenses of the last 25 years.

What they have is an improved defense — with six defensive linemen who can play, six linebackers with experience (and varying degrees of ability) and four outstanding defensive backs, with two new cornerbacks and three backup safeties and another backup cornerback in case of the inevitable injury.

We can all agree that the defense has five all-pro players of the past and a window of about three years into the future with all those veterans.

They have a chance to be very good in the coming season and again the next two and the Broncos shouldn't be jacking around wasting Champ Bailey and Brian Dawkins and D.J. Williams and Elvis Dumervil and Jamal Williams for the rest of their careers.

I think the Broncos go with two guys in Tebow and Quinn who have a chance to be great in this league.

I watched Steve Young in his first college game, and I see many of the same qualities in Tebow. Quinn has a huge upside.

At best, Orton is a one-year starter and gone. At worst, he ends up being beaten out and sitting on the bench or being traded just before the season.

I examined every roster and depth chart in the league, and teams are hurting for backup quarterbacks. Orton can go a dozen different places and be No. 2, for example, with the Redskins.

He lost his job once to Rex Grossman, and then beat him. Probably could beat him out again as the backup to McNabb. If McNabb gets hurt, as he occasionally is prone to do, Orton could become the D.C. starter.

He could compete for the starting job in Jacksonville (oddly enough), and Garrard already has said he has to step up his game next year.

The Broncos didn't know they would go after Tebow when Quinn was acquired from Cleveland. Orton might be able to compete for No. 1 in Buffalo or a few other places, depending on the direction teams go.

He could be a backup with the Jets or the Lions, maybe even the Saints or the Colts. He might be able to make a run at a job in Arizona.

There is a report out of Chicago that the Bears should bring him back as Cutler's reserve.

Does he want to go somewhere else? I'm sure he doesn't. But better to go now than at the end of camp, when he'd be way behind somewhere else.

McDaniels may be wrong, but if he is, he'll be gone. I may be wrong, but I'll be dead soon, and you can spit on my grave.

If McDaniels is right about Tebow and Quinn, Broncos fans could get what they really want. If I'm right, you can still spit on my grave.

[SOCALORADO.]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15075280

The fact that me and Paige agree on so much is really chapping my hide.

[TXBRONC]

The fact that me and Paige agree on so much is really chapping my hide.

It's like that old saying "The sun has to shine on a dog's ass every once in awhile." :D

[LTC Pain]

It's like that old saying "The sun has to shine on a dog's ass every once in awhile." :D

ROFLMAO! :beer::lol::laugh:

[TXBRONC]

The fact that me and Paige agree on so much is really chapping my hide.

Something else I just thought of you're not alone, Woody's non scientific poll had 70% of the respondents saying that Denver should trade Orton.

Several weeks back I asked almost the exact same question that Paige asked in his mailbag. "If the Broncos were so in love with Orton, why not give him a long-term contract now and settle the issue?" I didn't buy into the idea that had anything to do with a lack of a new CBA.

[SOCALORADO.]

Something else I just thought of you're not alone, Woody's non scientific poll had 70% of the respondents saying that Denver should trade Orton.

Several weeks back I asked almost the exact same question that Paige asked in his mailbag. "If the Broncos were so in love with Orton, why not give him a long-term contract now and settle the issue?" I didn't buy into the idea that had anything to do with a lack of a new CBA.

I think like Woody also said that having 4 QBs on the roster, with the circumstances known to all parties involved, is a recipie for disaster.
I just cannot see how this is going to work.
And i dont think if Brandstater gets thrown to the PS, its gonna make anything better.

[arapaho2]

Guessing you have never played on the OLINE. Or you might undrstand how much the guy left and right of you makes or breaks your blocking scheme.

Why do you think KC kicked our asses for almost adeacade running th ball and giving Trnt Green all the time in the world. It was becausr they had some dmaned fine tAlent and they played sisde ny side for almost a DEcade with out a change. It was the sum of all the parts of it not ONE super stud that made them great.

Harris was great in 08 bit then the entire OLINE all started every game and subistutions were minimal during the year.
Last year hamilton sucked and casey had no help from either side.

The got fired because they could not do the basic thing a OL must do BLOCK one on one. Those are the facts of life like them or not.

Now we have the makings of a great OLINE that has talent others would have taken had we not got them first. Let's se how long it will take them to gel.
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since 2000 the H2H record is kc..9 wins..DB 11 wins

shields and roaf only played together 4 season..2002-2003-2004-2005

[TXBRONC]

I think like Woody also said that having 4 QBs on the roster, with the circumstances known to all parties involved, is a recipie for disaster.
I just cannot see how this is going to work.
And i dont think if Brandstater gets thrown to the PS, its gonna make anything better.

It would be difficult at best to find time for each quarterback take snaps at practice. Someone not named TFT would end up just standing around.

[dogfish]

typical woody. . .

the three guys we have with about two wins and five starts between them are so good that there's no point even keeping orton here, he has nothing to offer us. . . but he's apparently good enough to have value to numerous other franchises. . .

:rolleyes:

seriously, people need to stop acting like we have some embarrassment of riches at the quarterback position. . . orton is a league-average starter, the type teams are always looking to replace. . . brady quinn is a bust who couldn't beat out derek anderson-- the browns had to give him away because no one wanted him. . .

now the guy comes here, supposedly has a couple of good practices, and now we're overflowing with quarterback talent? oh yea, i forgot we've also got a former 6th round pick who's never played in this league. . .


Quinn and Tebow ultimately, in my opinion, give the Broncos a tandem they haven't had since Elway & Kubiak.

look, i'm as excited as anyone else about tebow's potential, but comments like this are beyond laughable. . . .

[BroncoNut]

typical woody. . .

the three guys we have with about two wins and five starts between them are so good that there's no point even keeping orton here, he has nothing to offer us. . . but he's apparently good enough to have value to numerous other franchises. . .

:rolleyes:

seriously, people need to stop acting like we have some embarrassment of riches at the quarterback position. . . orton is a league-average starter, the type teams are always looking to replace. . . brady quinn is a bust who couldn't beat out derek anderson-- the browns had to give him away because no one wanted him. . .

now the guy comes here, supposedly has a couple of good practices, and now we're overflowing with quarterback talent? oh yea, i forgot we've also got a former 6th round pick who's never played in this league. . .



look, i'm as excited as anyone else about tebow's potential, but comments like this are beyond laughable. . . .

with all due respect dogface, the quote may be quite accurate. what other tandem at the position since Kubiak and Elway have more potential? Pffft. :simulates masturbating:

[BroncoNut]

with all due respect dogface, the quote may be quite accurate. what other tandem at the position since Kubiak and Elway bring more potential?


Pffft. :simulates masturbation:

[dogfish]

with all due respect dogface, the quote may be quite accurate. what other tandem at the position since Kubiak and Elway have more potential? Pffft. :simulates masturbating:

time to switch to decaf, nut. . .

cutler had all the potential in the world. . . he was no elway, though, and as much as i like tim T, i don't wanna hear him compared to the duke until he's been to a few super bowls. . .

[BroncoNut]

time to switch to decaf, nut. . .

cutler had all the potential in the world. . . he was no elway, though, and as much as i like tim T, i don't wanna hear him compared to the duke until he's been to a few super bowls. . .

soooo sorry, I forgot about Cutler.

My point is, is that the quote is not comparing tim tebow/brady quinn to Elway/kubiak. It says SINCE ELWAY/KUBIAK. It also says "tandem" cutler alone was not a "tandem"

[TXBRONC]

typical woody. . .

the three guys we have with about two wins and five starts between them are so good that there's no point even keeping orton here, he has nothing to offer us. . . but he's apparently good enough to have value to numerous other franchises. . .

:rolleyes:

seriously, people need to stop acting like we have some embarrassment of riches at the quarterback position. . . orton is a league-average starter, the type teams are always looking to replace. . . brady quinn is a bust who couldn't beat out derek anderson-- the browns had to give him away because no one wanted him. . .

now the guy comes here, supposedly has a couple of good practices, and now we're overflowing with quarterback talent? oh yea, i forgot we've also got a former 6th round pick who's never played in this league. . .



look, i'm as excited as anyone else about tebow's potential, but comments like this are beyond laughable. . . .

Where I think Paige is right is that Denver wont keep four quarterbacks. But I don't agree with him that Orton will be the guy that's gone.

[Tned]

typical woody. . .

the three guys we have with about two wins and five starts between them are so good that there's no point even keeping orton here, he has nothing to offer us. . . but he's apparently good enough to have value to numerous other franchises. . .

:rolleyes:

seriously, people need to stop acting like we have some embarrassment of riches at the quarterback position. . . orton is a league-average starter, the type teams are always looking to replace. . . brady quinn is a bust who couldn't beat out derek anderson-- the browns had to give him away because no one wanted him. . .

now the guy comes here, supposedly has a couple of good practices, and now we're overflowing with quarterback talent? oh yea, i forgot we've also got a former 6th round pick who's never played in this league. . .



look, i'm as excited as anyone else about tebow's potential, but comments like this are beyond laughable. . . .

Amen, ditto, good post.... You choose. :salute:

[Tned]

soooo sorry, I forgot about Cutler.

My point is, is that the quote is not comparing tim tebow/brady quinn to Elway/kubiak. It says SINCE ELWAY/KUBIAK. It also says "tandem" cutler alone was not a "tandem"

Based on what we know today, and what we have seen on the field, Plummer/Cutler were a heck of a lot better tandem than Quinn/Tebow or Tebow/Quinn. Hopefully, a year or two from now, my statement won't be true, but today it clearly is.

[BroncoNut]

Based on what we know today, and what we have seen on the field, Plummer/Cutler were a heck of a lot better tandem than Quinn/Tebow or Tebow/Quinn. Hopefully, a year or two from now, my statement won't be true, but today it clearly is.

actually, I did entertain that idea. Plummer was kinda bad though, proven.

[GEM]

actually, I did entertain that idea. Plummer was kinda bad though, proven.

All Plummer did was win....

[Tned]

actually, I did entertain that idea. Plummer was kinda bad though, proven.

Not proven actually, just fan opinion as he was a divisive QB.

The Broncos won a lot of games with him, and he was marching his way towards the top of most of the Broncos QB records, including things like INT/Att, etc.

[claymore]

Plummer was a cancer.

[slim]

Clinton Portis sucks.

[SOCALORADO.]

mike shanahan is a jerk.

[Tned]

Plummer was a cancer.

Yea, which is why he had so much loyalty from his team mates.

[jhildebrand]

mike shanahan is a jerk.

And an egomaniac!