View Full Version : Make your predictions now: Cutler, Scheffler, Marshall vs Tebow, Decker, Thomas
I remember not too long ago everyone was super excited for our future and felt like the SB was not that far in distance when Cutler, Scheffler, and Marshall were on the rise. Let's not forget Eddie - however we STILL have Royal which is why he's not in the poll.
So make your predictions:
Which group would you rather have, TODAY? Which group will be more successful when it's all said and done?
Remember, if you vote for Tebow, Decker, and Thomas you're essentially saying the departure of Cutler, Tony, and Marshall were worth it and that's what needed to be done.
Just a thought.
BroncoBJ
05-07-2010, 10:17 PM
Tebow, Decker, and Marshall. :elefant:
While I don't think Decker/Scheffler is an apples to apples, when it comes to Cutler/Marshall vs. Tebow/Thomas TODAY, I don't think there is any doubt that Cutler/Marshall is the only answer when you take away the emotion of "they didn't want to be here" stuff.
Now, I 'hope' that a year or two from now, we can all 'honestly' answer that Tebow/Thomas are better than Cutler/Marshall, but today, with Cutler and Marshall being proven producers, and Tebow and Thomas being HUGE projects that many NFL experts feel might not make the transition into the NFL, nobody can 'honestly', with their fan-emotions set aside, say that Tebow/Thomas are the better choice today.
Northman
05-07-2010, 10:59 PM
Its a loaded question really. None of the new guys have proven their worth on the field.
Its a loaded question really. None of the new guys have proven their worth on the field.
Yep, but just watch how many will say Tebow/Decker/Thomas.
Magnificent Seven
05-07-2010, 11:03 PM
Elway -Three Amigos!
How the hell can you compare? We've seen one group on the field and haven't seen the other.
I'll take Cutler minus the prima donna whimpering on the sidelines, Sheffler without the losing attitude and Marshall with his hands on the ball instead of his girl. Oh wait....those were all issues.
Ask again in 4 years.
Then to top it off...you try to guide the answer with the last couple of lines. So you ask a question that can't be thoughtfully put into perspective and then tell them if they answer a certain way it means a certain thing.
My answer would be Tebow, Decker and Bay Bay...because they are Broncos right now. :D
dogfish
05-07-2010, 11:51 PM
i want brees, fitz and andre johnson. . . .
Foochacho
05-07-2010, 11:57 PM
what no Orton-Quinn-Gaffney?
Foochacho
05-08-2010, 12:00 AM
I say they all suck so I choose King Neckbeard-PBR-Slutbags
Bosco
05-08-2010, 12:27 AM
Tebow ------
-------- Tebow
Cutler -------
Why? Because Jay Cutler is a douchebag for one. Secondly, he has shown hardly any improvement since he came into the league. Tebow is an unknown, but if he fails it won't be for lack of effort or not responding to coaching. Cutler will never be any better than mediocre unless he changes his attitude.
Decker ------
------------ Decker
Scheffler ----
Why? Scheffler is an even bigger ass than Cutler. No amount of talent would ever allow me to put up with this clown.
Thomas -----
-------- Thomas
Marshall -----
Why? No off field baggage. Not a single misstep away from an 8 game suspension. While Marshall was extremely talented, Thomas is a better fit for our offense.
BroncoBJ
05-08-2010, 01:18 AM
Cant forget about Plummer, Lelie, and Putzier though. We actually won with those guys. :rockon:
Timmy!
05-08-2010, 02:05 AM
Bacon, eggs, and hash browns.
Lonestar
05-08-2010, 02:32 AM
easy one for me,
me players with questionable character issues,
Or TEAM players that have been winners and have more potential.
Guys that have taken a lot of beating in the pros verses fresh raw rookies.
Players that you can trust to not be on a police blotter or line up quarterly or ones you do not have much to worry about through their college careers.
Winners at big time schools or losers at no name schools/programs.
HUGE stats coming out of college or not.
I know that many would have loved to have jay Etal.
But he is a beer bust away from a diabetic coma, marshall is a bitch slap away from a 8 games suspension. Tony had no heart to be here.
dogfish
05-08-2010, 03:04 AM
Bacon, eggs, and hash browns.
"you forgot one part, chief"
"oh yeah, what's that?"
"the part where i filled the bowling balls with beer!"
While I don't think Decker/Scheffler is an apples to apples, when it comes to Cutler/Marshall vs. Tebow/Thomas TODAY, I don't think there is any doubt that Cutler/Marshall is the only answer when you take away the emotion of "they didn't want to be here" stuff.
lol you don't need to be playing the same position for the whole concept of the question to be in line with what I'm talking about.
Just because Tebow DIRECTLY replaces Cutler and Thomas DIRECTLY replaces Marshall doesn't mean Decker needs to play TE and block like a ***** to replace Scheffler - the fact is we got rid of those 3 players who were key contributors at that time in the passing/running game - to these 3 new players - that is it.
Its a loaded question really. None of the new guys have proven their worth on the field.
That is why the thread title says, Make your PREDICTIONS
I'm not asking, who is better and for you to go ahead and prove it to me.
I'm putting you in the drivers seat with the question - that was pretty clear. Who would YOU rather have?
How the hell can you compare? We've seen one group on the field and haven't seen the other.
I'll take Cutler minus the prima donna whimpering on the sidelines, Sheffler without the losing attitude and Marshall with his hands on the ball instead of his girl. Oh wait....those were all issues.
Ask again in 4 years.
Then to top it off...you try to guide the answer with the last couple of lines. So you ask a question that can't be thoughtfully put into perspective and then tell them if they answer a certain way it means a certain thing.
My answer would be Tebow, Decker and Bay Bay...because they are Broncos right now. :D
I'm not saying you can compare - I didn't ASK for any specific comparison - all I asked was for a PREDICTION.
No shit you can't compare - there is a reason why the poll has an end date in November - so we can all look back. :cool:
dogfish
05-08-2010, 04:20 AM
I'm not saying you can compare - I didn't ASK for any specific comparison - all I asked was for a PREDICTION.
No shit you can't compare - there is a reason why the poll has an end date in November - so we can all look back. :cool:
okay, prediction on what, exactly?
you ask in the poll who we'd rather have this year. . . so are we supposed to predict which set of players will do better this year?
how do we calculate who actually "won?" cutler, marshall and scheffler play for different teams, so we quite obviously can't figure team success into it. . . are we going to just compare their stats side by side at the end of the year? and if you do that, then people will argue that it's apples vs. oranges because of different team circumstances, and they'll be right. . . :lol:
it's a question with no right answer, IMO. . . unless you're asking the hypothetical "who would you take if you had to win one game right now," in which case i agree with T, and can't see how you'd make a particularly good case for taking rookies over proven NFL performers aside from "they have great intangibles". . .
now, if you're asking which players i'd rther have long term, that's very different, and requires the inclusion of many more factors in your decision-- much less straightforward. . . but that's not how you phrased it. . .
clarify. . .
oh, and also. . . are you lex?
TimTebow15MVP
05-08-2010, 05:02 AM
yeah cutlers proven.......a proven loser
GGMoogly
05-08-2010, 07:44 AM
What? I can't hear what you say because my ears are blocked with TT's 2 National Championship rings.
okay, prediction on what, exactly?
you ask in the poll who we'd rather have this year. . . so are we supposed to predict which set of players will do better this year?
how do we calculate who actually "won?" cutler, marshall and scheffler play for different teams, so we quite obviously can't figure team success into it. . . are we going to just compare their stats side by side at the end of the year? and if you do that, then people will argue that it's apples vs. oranges because of different team circumstances, and they'll be right. . . :lol:
it's a question with no right answer, IMO. . . unless you're asking the hypothetical "who would you take if you had to win one game right now," in which case i agree with T, and can't see how you'd make a particularly good case for taking rookies over proven NFL performers aside from "they have great intangibles". . .
now, if you're asking which players i'd rther have long term, that's very different, and requires the inclusion of many more factors in your decision-- much less straightforward. . . but that's not how you phrased it. . .
clarify. . .
oh, and also. . . are you lex?
No - lmao Lex I haven't heard about him since Omane from more than 2 years :lol: I am MVPlaya from Omane - and Mr RD from DB.com (although I rarely post there).
Really - it's not that complicated.
It's an open question, you can compare stats side by side, stats from when they were together, whatever - it really doesn't matter. There is a reason I wasn't specific - you're making it more complicated than it really is.
Like I said - who would you rather have, TODAY? Whether you answer - Cutler, Scheffler, and Marshall because they have experience or Tebow, Decker, and Bay-Bay because you like their future - it really doesn't matter, it's how you're thinking about it and this is the type of shit that goes through the minds of organizations day in and day out.
It's a question that challenges your thoughts and how you see things - that's it.
Answer however you like, it really doesn't matter - and no it obviously doesn't have a right answer right now, that's why it's called PREDICTIONS.
It's not complicated - vote, make a post on what you think and move on.
If Tebow and the Broncos wins the Super Bowl within 3 years - will the answer be clear? If we make the play-offs for the next few years, will the answer be clear? If Cutler loses his job will it be clear? If Marshall's numbers fall of a cliff, will it be clear? If Scheffler is no longer in the league due to the league finding out he's missing "stuff" between his legs, will it be clear?
It won't be hard in the future to determine who "won"- if this gets pulled back up in a 1-3 years - I guarantee you the "answers" will be pretty clear cut.
I'm not saying you can compare - I didn't ASK for any specific comparison - all I asked was for a PREDICTION.
No shit you can't compare - there is a reason why the poll has an end date in November - so we can all look back. :cool:
Hmmmm okay....I predict that Cutler will have the same kind of year he's had in the past. Rocket arm behind a terrible oline that wasn't addressed because the Bears had no ammunition in the draft. He'll continue to throw into double and triple coverage because he's more confident in his arm than he is afraid of defenders.
Sheffler is in Detroit, nuff said.
Marshall is in Miami whose offense is a bit of a run happy wild horse good time...not focused on one guy getting over a hundred catches. I think he will do well, but will again get his panties in a bunch because he isn't the centerpiece to the offense.
Of the three, I think Marshall will have the most productive year.
I think Tebow will sit at least for the first part of the season, barring injury or Orton plain sucking (Which is VERY possible).
I think Bay Bay will be thrown into the mix the quickest of the three as we don't have any other big options at the position. I think he will have his rookie mistakes but we will like what we see from him.
I think Deckers will get plenty of play on ST and we will see him take some of Stokely's playing time as I think this is Stokely's last season due to age.
I am more confident on Decker having an impact right away whereas I will wait to hold judgment on Bay-Bay. If Bay-Bay can use his size and gets confident on the field I think he'll be able to contribute too. McDaniels knows how to get his receivers open.
Decker's skills translates directly to the NFL - crisp route running, amazing hands, and great blocking. You can make an impact day 1 in the NFL with those type of abilities, they're fundamentals and anytime you have fundamentals down you can compete in any sport right away.
MileHighCrew
05-08-2010, 09:06 AM
Doesn't matter who I'd rather have, but I know who I'm cheering for!!!
CoachChaz
05-08-2010, 10:21 AM
If Thomas and Decker were worth a damn then id be more optimistic about this bunch. I think Tebow can develop into a more complete QB than Cutler, but i don't see Thomas and Decker ever being anything more than mediocre.
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Northman
05-08-2010, 10:35 AM
That is why the thread title says, Make your PREDICTIONS
I'm not asking, who is better and for you to go ahead and prove it to me.
I'm putting you in the drivers seat with the question - that was pretty clear. Who would YOU rather have?
If its based on actual perfermance than you would have to go with Cutler/Marshall/Sheff. Like i said, the other 3 have proven nothing at the professional level. Had all been rookies would of been a better comparison so really the question is silly to begin with.
Northman
05-08-2010, 10:37 AM
okay, prediction on what, exactly?
you ask in the poll who we'd rather have this year. . . so are we supposed to predict which set of players will do better this year?
how do we calculate who actually "won?" cutler, marshall and scheffler play for different teams, so we quite obviously can't figure team success into it. . . are we going to just compare their stats side by side at the end of the year? and if you do that, then people will argue that it's apples vs. oranges because of different team circumstances, and they'll be right. . . :lol:
it's a question with no right answer, IMO. . . unless you're asking the hypothetical "who would you take if you had to win one game right now," in which case i agree with T, and can't see how you'd make a particularly good case for taking rookies over proven NFL performers aside from "they have great intangibles". . .
now, if you're asking which players i'd rther have long term, that's very different, and requires the inclusion of many more factors in your decision-- much less straightforward. . . but that's not how you phrased it. . .
clarify. . .
oh, and also. . . are you lex?
Exactly. The question is a poor one and you hit the nail on the head.
If its based on actual perfermance than you would have to go with Cutler/Marshall/Sheff. Like i said, the other 3 have proven nothing at the professional level. Had all been rookies would of been a better comparison so really the question is silly to begin with.
If you wish to base it on performance - then that's up to you. I don't think you quite understand the question - reread and above post I made and it should clarify
That is why it is a PREDICTION - you get to choose what you want to base it off of or what you believe it. I'm not sure why it's so hard... it's called creativity and being put in a position to make an opinion with many streets to go down, there is no right answer as of right now.
It doesn't matter if they're all rookies or not - like I said which group will be better when it's all said and done... and that discussion will be determined in the future. I know, some will say they're not together - OK: we can compare it when they were... and we can also compare it individually - it really doesn't matter.
If we look back in this thread years from now - it will be pretty clear.
This isn't an exam people - it's just to open up your thoughts.
Northman
05-08-2010, 10:46 AM
If you wish to base it on performance - then that's up to you. I don't think you quite understand the question - reread and above post I made and it should clarify
That is why it is a PREDICTION - you get to choose what you want to base it off of or what you believe it.
It doesn't matter if they're all rookies or not - like I said which group will be better when it's all said and done... and that discussion will be determined in the future.
If we look back in this thread years from now - it will be pretty clear.
Um, ok. I have to stay with the Cutler/Marshall thing as the others are pretty much projects anyway.
Doesn't matter who I'd rather have, but I know who I'm cheering for!!!
This I agree with wholeheartedly. I know which three I will be cheering for, and it doesn't include Cutler, Marshall or Scheffler.
I am more confident on Decker having an impact right away whereas I will wait to hold judgment on Bay-Bay. If Bay-Bay can use his size and gets confident on the field I think he'll be able to contribute too. McDaniels knows how to get his receivers open.
Decker's skills translates directly to the NFL - crisp route running, amazing hands, and great blocking. You can make an impact day 1 in the NFL with those type of abilities, they're fundamentals and anytime you have fundamentals down you can compete in any sport right away.
Many think that Thomas has a 'chance' (seems to be a fair divide in opinion, like with Tebow) of being an impact player down the road, but that Decker is more likely to contribute in 2010.
Um, ok. I have to stay with the Cutler/Marshall thing as the others are pretty much projects anyway.
That was my point, when the question had TODAY in all caps, and when you consider that many NFL experts question whether Tebow or Thomas can transition into NFL starters, then the answer is easy. It's Cutler, et al. Contrary to what some would say, choosing those three in this question/poll (as many did), does not make you a Cutler or Marshall fan, it simply means you answered the question 'honestly' based on facts, rather than simply going with the party, or fan, line.
There is no question that I will be rooting for Tebow and company. I love the Tebow pick. I think it is a high risk/high reward pick, but I still love it. I hope that ten years from now we are talking about how much better Tebow's career has been than Cutler's, same with Thomas/Marshall, etc.
But, "today", all we have to hang our hat on is "potential" and half the NFL experts say that Tebow and Thomas don't have enough of that P stuff to make it in the NFL. I'm betting on the half of the experts that say Tebow will be a quality starter, but I wouldn't mortgage my house to cover that bet.
TXBRONC
05-08-2010, 01:19 PM
Its a loaded question really. None of the new guys have proven their worth on the field.
I wonder if this will be construed as hate speech? :ponder:
Northman
05-08-2010, 01:23 PM
I wonder if this will be construed as hate speech? :ponder:
Of course. This thread was only started for the "i told you so" crowd to jerk off too. Why it is people just cant wait and see to see how it pans out? Why do we need to predict anything about players who are no longer here or guys who havent even taken a snap yet?
TXBRONC
05-08-2010, 01:35 PM
Of course. This thread was only started for the "i told you so" crowd to jerk off too. Why it is people just cant wait and see to see how it pans out? Why do we need to predict anything about players who are no longer here or guys who havent even taken a snap yet?
Ya got me. :noidea:
I don't see how anyone can make any kind of prediction without Tebow, Thomas, and Decker actually playing.
Northman
05-08-2010, 01:37 PM
Ya got me. :noidea:
I don't see how anyone can make any kind of prediction without Tebow, Thomas, and Decker actually playing.
Its going to be a long offseason. :lol:
Its going to be a long offseason. :lol:
Let me correct your statement:
Its going to be ANOTHER long offseason. :lol:
Lonestar
05-08-2010, 01:42 PM
its going to be a long offseason. :lol:
let me correct your statement:
Its going to be another long offseason. :lol:
it is another long off season.
dogfish
05-08-2010, 02:23 PM
If Thomas and Decker were worth a damn then id be more optimistic about this bunch. I think Tebow can develop into a more complete QB than Cutler, but i don't see Thomas and Decker ever being anything more than mediocre.
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alright, coach, what gives?
i know those guys weren't your first choices, and that's fine, but you're the guy who's constantly telling us how silly it is to judge young guys before they've had a few years in the league. . . don't you think it's a little hypocritical to say thomas and decker aren't worth a damn before they've even gotten on the field, when you don't wanna hear people's legit criticism of alphonso "i got beaten out by a UDFA" smith?
WARHORSE
05-08-2010, 02:44 PM
I'll roll with the rookies.
Cutler, Scheffler and Brandoom are not Broncos.
I dont vote for Bears, Lions or Dolphins.
Some might say three of those names mentioned are petulant punks with an attitude of two letters: M.E.
Id rather lose in a fight with brothers than win with a group of people that dont care about me.
CoachChaz
05-08-2010, 03:49 PM
alright, coach, what gives?
i know those guys weren't your first choices, and that's fine, but you're the guy who's constantly telling us how silly it is to judge young guys before they've had a few years in the league. . . don't you think it's a little hypocritical to say thomas and decker aren't worth a damn before they've even gotten on the field, when you don't wanna hear people's legit criticism of alphonso "i got beaten out by a UDFA" smith?
Perhaps i forgot the "in my opinion" part. true...we can't judge kids too soon. but IN MY OPINION, i don't think these two are going to amount to much. but i'll wish really hard that im wrong
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silkamilkamonico
05-08-2010, 04:25 PM
Decker could be a great player if he could stay healthy. He's a very polished WR.
Thomas has a great skillset, is just real raw with his route running. Considering he has an exceptional work ethic, I don't see why people hate on him.
With that being said, I'm going to be hypocritical about my last comment and Tebow. I don't think he's going to be a very good QB, and will have to have him prove my opinion of him wrong on the field before I give. At that point, if he does, Denver will be successul and I could care less about being wrong about Tebow.
TXBRONC
05-08-2010, 05:19 PM
Let me correct your statement:
Its going to be ANOTHER long offseason. :lol:
It hasn't been already? :laugh:
The reason why I capped TODAY is to make people think twice - pretty much to put yourself in coach/GM's shoes.
I know people don't like the question, so here's another way to look at it
Bowlen/McDaniels/Xanders and company have been put in this SAME position - but not all at once. It started with Cutler and trickled down to Marshall then Scheffler which eventually translated to Tebow, Decker, and Thomas. McDaniels has made his decision - he doesn't know how Tebow, Decker, or Thomas will be in the NFL - but he's already made his bid that they will be more successful for the Broncos than the prior.
Northman
05-08-2010, 08:11 PM
but he's already made his bid that they will be more successful for the Broncos than the prior.
Not really. In fact, McD has stated that both Marshall and Cutler are very talented players. The fact that they didnt work with him in the long run has nothing to do with their playmaking ability. McD drafted Tebow and company on the premise that they will fit his scheme and "believes" they can be playmakers. But he has never said the prior guys sucked as athletes.
But he has never said the prior guys sucked as athletes.
And I never said he did.
all I said that he has made his bid that the Broncos will be more successful with Tebow, Decker, and Thomas... aka the Broncos will more successful without Cutler, Scheffler, and Marshall.
Not sure how you translated that into your post.
Northman
05-08-2010, 09:38 PM
And I never said he did.
all I said that he has made his bid that the Broncos will be more successful with Tebow, Decker, and Thomas... aka the Broncos will more successful without Cutler, Scheffler, and Marshall.
Not sure how you translated that into your post.
Well, your wording it wrong for starters. Its not about Denver being more successful. Its about those particular Broncos working and buying into his scheme. Again, if you take Tebow's brain and character and stick it in Jay Cutler he would still be here. This isnt a talent issue, its a character issue. So because of the character issues we have no idea if a guy like Cutler could of succeeded in Josh's scheme. We know Marshall could but again, character issues that didnt coincide with McD's Cocteau plan and thus his removal.
Well, your wording it wrong for starters. Its not about Denver being more successful. Its about those particular Broncos working and buying into his scheme. Again, if you take Tebow's brain and character and stick it in Jay Cutler he would still be here. This isnt a talent issue, its a character issue. So because of the character issues we have no idea if a guy like Cutler could of succeeded in Josh's scheme. We know Marshall could but again, character issues that didnt coincide with McD's Cocteau plan and thus his removal.
It's not about the Broncos being more successful?:lol:
You've got to be kidding me with a statement like that. :lol:
girler
05-08-2010, 10:36 PM
I picked Tebow, et al, because I'm a Broncos fan and that's what I've got. :salute:
Shazam!
05-09-2010, 12:58 AM
what a bullshit thread.
silkamilkamonico
05-09-2010, 02:21 AM
The reason why I capped TODAY is to make people think twice - pretty much to put yourself in coach/GM's shoes.
I know people don't like the question, so here's another way to look at it
Bowlen/McDaniels/Xanders and company have been put in this SAME position - but not all at once. It started with Cutler and trickled down to Marshall then Scheffler which eventually translated to Tebow, Decker, and Thomas. McDaniels has made his decision - he doesn't know how Tebow, Decker, or Thomas will be in the NFL - but he's already made his bid that they will be more successful for the Broncos than the prior.
In that case, it's been a terrible tradeoff. If you're going to look at TODAY, than you need to consider that McDaniels traded a Pro Bowl QB, one of the games best WR's, and on eof the games most explosive X factors in Scheffler, for 3 guys who we don't even know if they can play in the NFL.
I can't do that, because I want to belive McDaniels is making the right decisions.
Lonestar
05-09-2010, 03:37 AM
Josh traded three guys that were not TEAM players 3 guys that for the most were in it for the money ONLY.
When he got rid of them HE got more value for them than they orginally cost us.
Like buying 2 corvttes andf then selling them used for more than you paid for it even though one of them was constantly being pulled over because he could not abide by societal rules. The other did not wish to abide by TEAM rules.
If neigther of them were willing to fit into their places and schemes why would you want to keep them.
Because they were a pro bowl player in a non exsistent scheme?
The first step in healing is admiting failure.
Northman
05-09-2010, 11:16 AM
Josh traded three guys that were not TEAM players 3 guys that for the most were in it for the money ONLY.
When he got rid of them HE got more value for them than they orginally cost us.
Like buying 2 corvttes andf then selling them used for more than you paid for it even though one of them was constantly being pulled over because he could not abide by societal rules. The other did not wish to abide by TEAM rules.
If neigther of them were willing to fit into their places and schemes why would you want to keep them.
Because they were a pro bowl player in a non exsistent scheme?
The first step in healing is admiting failure.
Way to totally miss the boat jr. :lol:
Northman
05-09-2010, 11:19 AM
It's not about the Broncos being more successful?:lol:
You've got to be kidding me with a statement like that. :lol:
And yet another that misses the point of my post. Bravo.
Broncolingus
05-09-2010, 11:31 AM
I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread...
If - literally - you mean RIGHT NOW as in today, are we really wanting to compare three NFL experienced players against three rookies who have yet to take a snap in the NFL?
...dude, seriously?
Or, is it meant to compare the potential of those players, but again, how can any comparison be made because Cut, Chef, and BM have all played multiple seasons and the rookies you mentioned havent and we don't know what they can do?
OR - most likely - is this yet another thread (because we certainly don't have enough of those already) simply to criticize McD/Bronco's Inc. because Cut, Chef, and BM are fantastic players who won so many regular and post season games for Denver and are now gone and these 'replacement players' we now have are far less skilled players which we (again) know for a fact with the vast (zero snaps in the NFL) experience they've had a chance to show.
Regardless, I'll answer the question...
Tebow, Deck, and Bay-Bay are Denver Bronco's and want to be here...
Cut, Chef, and BM aren't Bronco's and DID NOT want to be here...
Now, is there really any question as to who 'we' want?
Softskull
05-09-2010, 11:33 AM
The first step in healing is admiting failure.
There are some that think that the first step in failing is creating a problem.
Northman
05-09-2010, 11:34 AM
I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread...
If - literally - you mean RIGHT NOW as in today, are we really wanting to compare three NFL experienced players against three rookies who have yet to take a snap in the NFL?
...dude, seriously?
Or, is it meant to compare the potential of those players, but again, how can any comparison be made because Cut, Chef, and BM have all played multiple seasons and the rookies you mentioned havent and we don't know what they can do?
OR - most likely - is this yet another thread (because we certainly don't have enough of those already) simply to criticize McD/Bronco's Inc. because Cut, Chef, and BM are fantastic players who won so many regular and post season games for Denver and are now gone and these 'replacement players' we now have are far lesser skilled players which we (again) know for a fact with the vast (zero snaps in the NFL) experience they've had a chance to show.
Regardless, I'll answer the question...
Tebow, Deck, and Bay-Bay are Denver Bronco's and want to be here...
Cut, Chef, and BM aren't Bronco's and DID NOT want to be here...
Is there really a question here as to who 'we' want?
You need to break out the crystal ball. Or just break out the eight ball because its cheaper. :lol:
Broncolingus
05-09-2010, 11:37 AM
You need to break out the crystal ball. Or just break out the eight ball because its cheaper. :lol:
NS, eh brother...
I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread...
If - literally - you mean RIGHT NOW as in today, are we really wanting to compare three NFL experienced players against three rookies who have yet to take a snap in the NFL?
...dude, seriously?
Or, is it meant to compare the potential of those players, but again, how can any comparison be made because Cut, Chef, and BM have all played multiple seasons and the rookies you mentioned havent and we don't know what they can do?
OR - most likely - is this yet another thread (because we certainly don't have enough of those already) simply to criticize McD/Bronco's Inc. because Cut, Chef, and BM are fantastic players who won so many regular and post season games for Denver and are now gone and these 'replacement players' we now have are far lesser skilled players which we (again) know for a fact with the vast (zero snaps in the NFL) experience they've had a chance to show.
Regardless, I'll answer the question...
Tebow, Deck, and Bay-Bay are Denver Bronco's and want to be here...
Cut, Chef, and BM aren't Bronco's and DID NOT want to be here...
Now, is there really any question as to who 'we' want?
Kind of funny, considering how many threads that have nothing to do with Cutler or Marshall (or Shanahan for that matter), that turn into a thread just to criticize those guys. Yes, a handful of guys criticize McDaniels no matter what, but far, far fewer than those that constantly bash Cutler/Marshall/McDaniels, even when they have nothing to do with the thread topic.
As to the "didn't want to be here" stuff, that's garbage, as Mark Schlereth would say.
Tell me how many players give a home town discount when they become a free agent, and that is exactly the number of players that put their 'desire' to be on the team in front of their wallet.
IMO, the "they didn't want to be here" approach is not a reasonable way to answer the question the OP answered. Having said that, he posted a question that different people interpreted different ways, and his clarifications have just made them more muddy.
I doubt there are many people that take the time to post on this message board that at this point don't 'hope' that Tebow/Decker/Thomas have the most success (compared to the Cutler and company) going forward. However, myself, like many people answering the question, assumed he was asking us to make an anyalytical choice based on what we know 'today', not simply an emotional, homer-based response.
Northman
05-09-2010, 12:18 PM
Kind of funny, considering how many threads that have nothing to do with Cutler or Marshall (or Shanahan for that matter), that turn into a thread just to criticize those guys. Yes, a handful of guys criticize McDaniels no matter what, but far, far fewer than those that constantly bash Cutler/Marshall/McDaniels, even when they have nothing to do with the thread topic.
As to the "didn't want to be here" stuff, that's garbage, as Mark Schlereth would say.
Tell me how many players give a home town discount when they become a free agent, and that is exactly the number of players that put their 'desire' to be on the team in front of their wallet.
IMO, the "they didn't want to be here" approach is not a reasonable way to answer the question the OP answered. Having said that, he posted a question that different people interpreted different ways, and his clarifications have just made them more muddy.
I doubt there are many people that take the time to post on this message board that at this point don't 'hope' that Tebow/Decker/Thomas have the most success (compared to the Cutler and company) going forward. However, myself, like many people answering the question, assumed he was asking us to make an anyalytical choice based on what we know 'today', not simply an emotional, homer-based response.
Spot on. Except for some of the "didnt want to be here" jive. :)
Broncolingus
05-09-2010, 12:26 PM
Personally, I think it's fair to say that Cut, Chef, and BM didn't want to play for (or be in) Denver anymore and it's not garbage...
Not placing blame or fault, and to clarify, I don't mean they wanted to play for only one or two teams regardless because those teams were childhood favs (well, maybe Culter to some degree as he said that repeatedly)...
...but I think all three had significant issues with the coach, owner, organization (all?) that they (and perhaps everyone involved) felt weren't going to be worked out...
...thus, and I think Bowlen said this, it was beneficial for eveyone to move on.
BL, if a person doesn't want to be somewhere - in any job - then it's best to move on which is what happened with those three.
JMO...
Personally, I think it's fair to say that Cut, Chef, and BM didn't want to play for (or be in) Denver anymore and it's not garbage...
Not placing blame or fault, and to clarify, I don't mean they wanted to play for only one or two teams regardless because those teams were childhood favs (well, maybe Culter to some degree as he said that repeatedly)...
...but I think all three had significant issues with the coach, owner, organization (all?) that they (and perhaps everyone involved) felt weren't going to be worked out...
...thus, and I think Bowlen said this, it was beneficial for eveyone to move on.
BL, if a person doesn't want to be somewhere - in any job - then it's best to move on which is what happened with those three.
JMO...
I don't disagree with anything in this post. I just don't feel that the "they didn't want to be here" argument that so many have made as justifications for them being traded is valid. There are players all across the league that have been very open about not wanting to be with their current team, and yet they are still there and productive. We are fans, we are latched on to one team. For the players, this is a career, not an obsession, like with us. They want to be on the team that pays them in line with what they think they are worse, and gives them the best chance to win. Cutler and Marshall were not unique in this regard, just like Kubiak "didn't want to be here" because he interviewed for head coaching jobs after the SB wins.
Lonestar
05-09-2010, 01:57 PM
Do you suppose that a player would see value in staying with a team he is with and may give a "home town discount" IF:
He is happy with his role on the team
Has a nice home and friends there
Has kids that have friend and goes to good schools
Has family that is nearby or moved here to be near him.
Decides that team B is a total loser
Will near see a Play game with B
B Has bad coaching
Lost of reason to give a discount. Now I'm not talking 5 million over span of the contract but a couple might make all the moving hoopla that do not want to.
I know it is different but I turned down a couple of promotions as they were not a good fit for me.
for example
I would have never moved to another place that has a state income tax after i lived in a state that did not have it. That is worth 18% to 30% of your wages depending on the state.
That said
I'm not sure that jay would have settled for a new contract at almost any cost nor do I think that Pat would have paid it either until they had a year under Joshes belt.
Do you suppose that a player would see value in staying with a team he is with and may give a "home town discount" IF:
He is happy with his role on the team
Has a nice home and friends there
Has kids that have friend and goes to good schools
Has family that is nearby or moved here to be near him.
Decides that team B is a total loser
Will near see a Play game with B
B Has bad coaching
Lost of reason to give a discount. Now I'm not talking 5 million over span of the contract but a couple might make all the moving hoopla that do not want to.
I know it is different but I turned down a couple of promotions as they were not a good fit for me.
for example
I would have never moved to another place that has a state income tax after i lived in a state that did not have it. That is worth 18% to 30% of your wages depending on the state.
That said
I'm not sure that jay would have settled for a new contract at almost any cost nor do I think that Pat would have paid it either until they had a year under Joshes belt.
I'm not saying that players shouldn't give a home town discount, just that typically they don't. It's very, very rare to see home town discounts given in any professional sport.
Even players like Elam that want to retire a Bronco and come back and sign one day contracts to retire as such, won't give their team a home town discount, because it is a business for them.
For us fans, it's all about loyalty to the team we follow. To the players, coaches and management, it's a business.
Lonestar
05-09-2010, 02:49 PM
I'm not saying that players shouldn't give a home town discount, just that typically they don't. It's very, very rare to see home town discounts given in any professional sport.
Even players like Elam that want to retire a Bronco and come back and sign one day contracts to retire as such, won't give their team a home town discount, because it is a business for them.
For us fans, it's all about loyalty to the team we follow. To the players, coaches and management, it's a business.
overall I agree but many folks do not see that moving to another city can be a HUGE expense with Taxes, moving costs, relocation issues new utilities, schools to enroll in, jobs for wives OR charities to get involved in.
not to mention real estate fees, commission for loans and IF you move to a state that has a higher state and maybe even City income tax all of a sudden 2 million is really 47 dollars after all is said and done. I realize it is not quite that bad but when the government is getting about 50% of that raise all of a sudden there is not all that much left.
what is a sales commission on real ester now 6-8% on a 1 million that is 60 grand plus. If you bought a house in DEN I'm guessing the real estate market today is not what it was 4 years ago.
Lots to think about when moving on.
Elams case he needed one last score guess I can't fault him for that but I'll bet he did not sell his house in DEN when he left either.
Elams case he needed one last score guess I can't fault him for that but I'll bet he did not sell his house in DEN when he left either.
That sums up my point right there. There are plenty of retired players living in Denver that played with at least one more team after Denver. Even if they love the city of Denver and want to make it their home long term, the NFL is still their career and therefore with very, very few exceptions, they go where they will get paid the most, NOT where they want to be.
Fans lose site of the business aspect, which is why they get pissed when players talk about wanting a new/better contract, or they get pissed when after a playoff blowout, a player talks about needing a vacation, or if after a regular season loss, a player is seen having a nice dinner some place.
Most players give it their all each and every Sunday, but in the end it is still their job, where for us fans we expect them to live and die the team like we do.
Our guys because I am a Bronco fan and a homer.
I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread...
If - literally - you mean RIGHT NOW as in today, are we really wanting to compare three NFL experienced players against three rookies who have yet to take a snap in the NFL?
...dude, seriously?
Or, is it meant to compare the potential of those players, but again, how can any comparison be made because Cut, Chef, and BM have all played multiple seasons and the rookies you mentioned havent and we don't know what they can do?
OR - most likely - is this yet another thread (because we certainly don't have enough of those already) simply to criticize McD/Bronco's Inc. because Cut, Chef, and BM are fantastic players who won so many regular and post season games for Denver and are now gone and these 'replacement players' we now have are far less skilled players which we (again) know for a fact with the vast (zero snaps in the NFL) experience they've had a chance to show.
Regardless, I'll answer the question...
Tebow, Deck, and Bay-Bay are Denver Bronco's and want to be here...
Cut, Chef, and BM aren't Bronco's and DID NOT want to be here...
Now, is there really any question as to who 'we' want?
All of them.
It's just how you see it.
I doubt there are many people that take the time to post on this message board that at this point don't 'hope' that Tebow/Decker/Thomas have the most success (compared to the Cutler and company) going forward. However, myself, like many people answering the question, assumed he was asking us to make an anyalytical choice based on what we know 'today', not simply an emotional, homer-based response.
:beer:
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