I still think Brady Quinn has a great chance to be starter opening day

[Mr D]

I stated after the Quinn trade that he would be our starter opening day (a lot of $$$ incentives), but it's also not so far fetched. I made a pretty long post (not here I believe, but I can re-post it if you guys want, kind of long)

Kyle Orton obviously deserves to start off as #1 on the depth chart but I don't think it will be as big of a wall to climb for Quinn as some may think.

Orton's money maker is gone (Marshall), he didn't have much chemistry with Royal, and Scheffler is gone. Gaffney is really the only person we can make a case Orton has some real experience with. Our Oline is going to have a couple of new pieces. Orton's not exactly returning to HIS offense he ran last year.

Thomas and Decker will both be a new breed for Orton and Quinn, neither has the advantage of chemistry to start off, and Quinn will actually be able to take advantage of Thomas' speed.

Quinn has played 13 games in his career - and was the starter for the Browns for most of the season last year. He's put up some really good performances (regardless of who they were against), and one especially against an important team, the San Diego Chargers.

The NFL game time experience is there - he's been in the NFL for 3 years now, he's very familiar of how things are ran on game day at this point (regardless of how ****** up the Browns execute on game day, :lol:)

The point is - if Quinn is actually better than Orton it will become pretty apparent. Quinn already has this system down for most of his football LIFE. McDaniels said that he had "about 85%" of the terminology down, and that's right when we got him.

The only thing is for Quinn to make the right reads McDaniels wants and learn the plays we like to run here.

I still stand by my stance that Quinn will start opening day. He's got more experience in this system than Kyle Orton (think about it), and he's much more talented in Kyle Orton. The ONLY way Kyle Orton wins the job is if he can play "smarter" football. He's not winning by play making abilities, skill, talent, or arm. Quinn can make things happen when plays break down.

I've seen him play and he can definitely play well, the numbers don't do him justice. The play calling in Cleveland was HORRIBLE, and the offense was ATROCIOUS.

What I'm pretty much saying is -

Orton is not coming into this season with as much experience/chemistry this year with the Broncos as it may seem like even though he's had a year under his belt. Quinn has had more experience in a similar system, and the same system in college.

Combine that with the fact that I think Quinn is a better QB, much better arm, can makes plays with his feet, and can take advantage of the deep ball -

Quinn will be our starter opening day.

That is, barring that Tebow pulls out his super man cape and takes the spot from them. It's just hard to believe Tebow will win the job right at the beginning of the year with no game time experience - and understanding how to implement a Josh McDaniels game plan - an NFL game plan. He obviously has pre-season though...

What do you guys think? If you think Orton will be the starter - what is your case of why Orton will be the starter?

[broncophan]

I am not so sure Quinn will play well enough to start.
The only game where I was impressed with Quinn.....was his NFL debut a couple of years ago against Denver......funny enough.

I realize the Browns are horrible.....but still......

Don't get me wrong though......I hope he plays well.....and would have no problem with him being the starter.I really look forward to seeing Tebow and Quinn play .....and see how they do.

In the end though.....I would think experience wins out and Orton will be the starter.......at least for the first regular season game......:)

If anyone would have told me 3 years ago....that the Broncos would have Quinn and Tebow in 2010.......I would have thought they were nuts.

[Mr D]

I want to emphasize the games against the Lions and Chargers a bit more.

Anytime you put on these type of performances - no matter who it is against - you've shown you can play at the NFL level. The Chargers was a legit performance - I don't think anyone can argue with that. Cleveland Browns had the worst offense last year, play calling, oline, WR's, everything.

I know it was against the Lions - and they lost (defense) - but he put up one of the best performances against the Lions last year (Brees was the only QB that had better #'s, and Jay Cutler had similar #'s in the last game of the season). They played Brett Favre twice, Kurt Warner, Aaron Rodgers twice, etc.... think about it.

The kid has proved he can put up big numbers, and one was against a TOP AFC team.

I mean who can really play well in the most depressing city in America? :lol:

[Mr D]

The only game where I was impressed with Quinn.....was his NFL debut a couple of years ago against Denver......funny enough.

Did you watch the Lions and Chargers games?



I realize the Browns are horrible.....but still......


I don't think you quite understand. They were the WORST in the league in every FACET of the game. Talent at EVERY position was probably the worst in the league.




In the end though.....I would think experience wins out and Orton will be the starter.......at least for the first regular season game......:)



I know my post is long, but I don't think you read all of it.

If you really think about it, Orton has experience with McDaniels is really the only advantage he has. As far as the system goes - Quinn is more experienced. As far as players - for the most part, they're both coming into a new situation.

[Mr D]

Chargers game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxDBuFwjg_0

Lions game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0xDdegsyY0

Don't know how to embed

Simple click on the TV on the bar above and put the embedded link in between it

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just display this post via quote or edit and look at it.

[broncophan]

Did you watch the Lions and Chargers games?
no.


I don't think you quite understand. They were the WORST in the league in every FACET of the game. Talent at EVERY position was probably the worst in the league.
I understand,,,,,,,,,I live in Ohio......I know how bad the browns are.



I know my post is long, but I don't think you read all of it.
I read all of it.

If you really think about it, Orton has experience with McDaniels is really the only advantage he has. As far as the system goes - Quinn is more experienced. As far as players - for the most part, they're both coming into a new situation.

Quinn was 136/256 last year for the season.That is not enough imo....for me to have confidence in him as a starter.
Now......if he lights it up in Preseason.....and Orton plays like crap......then I would think about Quinn starting.

I remember Quinn's rookie season.....he played very well with the browns in preseason........yet he played very little....and his numbers were not very good in what little.....he played for the regular season.

[broncofaninfla]

Quinn is one Orton ankle injury away from starting, I just hope he is ready.

[Northman]

I think he has just as well a chance as Orton or Tebow at his point. Orton has experience and played well last year but i do think Quinn brings more to the table and if he is put in the right system he might do quite well. Time will tell but i wouldnt mind seeing what he can do if given the opportunity.

[TXBRONC]

I think he has just as well a chance as Orton or Tebow at his point. Orton has experience and played well last year but i do think Quinn brings more to the table and if he is put in the right system he might do quite well. Time will tell but i wouldn't mind seeing what he can do if given the opportunity.

I don't think Orton has ever had anyone that really push him the starting position. So it will be interesting to see if Quinn and Tebow can will be able challenge him.

[dogfish]

brady quinn sucks. . . he has no guts-- folds under pressure like a lawn chair. . . if we start him, we'll be lucky to win four or five games. . .

[TXBRONC]

brady quinn sucks. . . he has no guts-- folds under pressure like a lawn chair. . . if we start him, we'll be lucky to win four or five games. . .

I heard Orton described as folding under pressure like a wet paper towel. There is way to much folding go on around here. :D

[Bosco]

I don't Orton has ever had anyone that really push him the starting position. So it will be interesting to see if Quinn and Tebow can will be able challenge him.

You're kidding, right? The Bears did nothing but try to start someone (either Grossman or Griese) over Orton his entire time there despite the fact he had outplayed them.


brady quinn sucks. . . he has no guts-- folds under pressure like a lawn chair. . . if we start him, we'll be lucky to win four or five games. . . I think you've got him confused with that "other" Notre Dame quarterback. Some kid named Clausen.

[jhildebrand]

Quinn already has this system down for most of his football LIFE.

Aren't you a little concerned with the above statement being true and the fact that Quinn couldn't beat DA out who NEVER played in this system prior to Mangina being in Cleveland?

[arapaho2]

does it really matters who starts?...we all know whether we go 4-12 or 12-4...tebow will replace them soon enough

[Timmy!]

brady quinn sucks. . . he has no guts-- folds under pressure like a lawn chair. . . if we start him, we'll be lucky to win four or five games. . .

ND hater. :heh:

[Lonestar]

does it really matters who starts?...we all know whether we go 4-12 or 12-4...tebow will replace them soon enough

just a bundle of cheer as usual. Liten up lots of folks see light at the end of the tunnel.

[TXBRONC]

You're kidding, right? The Bears did nothing but try to start someone (either Grossman or Griese) over Orton his entire time there despite the fact he had outplayed them.

I think you've got him confused with that "other" Notre Dame quarterback. Some kid named Clausen.

Why would I kid that Orton has never faced competition that could outplay him? What you're describing is politics not competition. Grossman and Griese are not very good quarterbacks so I don't see them having provided stiff competition.

[Mr D]

Just got this from Omane:


Rumor: We're gonna get rid of Orton, and soon.

This comes from one of my buddies who knows some people in the new FO.

Apparently within a month.

It would make sense, but scare the hell out of me. Our only proven starter?

My friend isn't a Broncos fan, so he didn't really care. I, as all Broncos fans do, started panicking. He's been right on minor stuff before. I guess they're talking about Orton like he's already gone.

We can't keep 4 QB's. Tim needs reps, too.

[jhildebrand]

brady quinn sucks. . . he has no guts-- folds under pressure like a lawn chair. . . if we start him, we'll be lucky to win four or five games. . .

Replace Brady Quinn with Kyle Orton and the exact same sentiment was being espoused everywhere this time last year including by yours truly :shocked:

[Mr D]

True or not - like I said Orton does not have as much experience as most people are giving him credit for when compared to Brady Quinn. Quinn has MUCH more experience in this offensive system and all the actual players you can say Orton had any experience/success with, are gone.

We need the deep ball as a threat to open up this offense.

Quinn has enough NFL experience to be our starting QB opening day, and enough to be successful.

[arapaho2]

just a bundle of cheer as usual. Liten up lots of folks see light at the end of the tunnel.


whats your issue?...

we all know whether orton starts...or quinn..wich ever one stays as a bronco next year will be backing tebow up

mcd isnt gonna let tebow ride pine for two years

realisticaly what i see is right now ortons the starter on paper...quinn will start by week 4-5....mcd wouldnt have brought brady here just to back up a qb he isnt gonna keep long term

and haveing a qb he proffesses is great and will be better...a former 1st rnd pick he says is very good...still didnt stop him from over paying for teebow

theres no way tebow isnt the starter by 2011..regaurdless of who starts this season

if you got a issue with reality...get help

[Mr D]

Think about it ... if you were to get rid of Orton, when will his stock be the highest? Now, or when he loses his job during the season? It's inevitable that Tebow or Quinn will take over. Orton limits this offense TOO much and brings nothing but AVERAGE play to the table. He brings nothing to this offense.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

Quinn only has experience in losing and throwing bad passes.

[broncofaninfla]

If Quinn proves his worth, I could see Orton getting traded if a team has a starter go down in pre-season or early in the season.

[jhildebrand]

True or not - like I said Orton does not have as much experience as most people are giving him credit for when compared to Brady Quinn. Quinn has MUCH more experience in this offensive system and all the actual players you can say Orton had any experience/success with, are gone.

We need the deep ball as a threat to open up this offense.

Quinn has enough NFL experience to be our starting QB opening day, and enough to be successful.

Again....I think you are over valuing this so called familiarity and experience with this system. Quinn had that very same advantage over Derek Anderson, who is a step down from Kyle Orton, and he couldn't beat DA out in Cleveland.

Furthermore, prior to the beginning of last season KO had ZERO experience with all the targets who are now gone and he found a way to a 6-0 start. What's to say he cannot get on the same page with new WR's this season?

Finally, let's not forget that KO almost severed his finger in the preseason last year and it bothered him all season long. I am not advocating KO to be the starter. I would be ok if Quinn WON the job. I just think some of the arguments you are making are flawed.

[arapaho2]

Again....I think you are over valuing this so called familiarity and experience with this system. Quinn had that very same advantage over Derek Anderson, who is a step down from Kyle Orton, and he couldn't beat DA out in Cleveland.

Furthermore, prior to the beginning of last season KO had ZERO experience with all the targets who are now gone and he found a way to a 6-0 start. What's to say he cannot get on the same page with new WR's this season?

Finally, let's not forget that KO almost severed his finger in the preseason last year and it bothered him all season long. I am not advocating KO to be the starter. I would be ok if Quinn WON the job. I just think some of the arguments you are making are flawed.


i believe that was called defense

and he did not almost severe his finger...dont over dramatize it...,speaking of that he played his best with the glove on

[SOCALORADO.]

Just got this from Omane:


Rumor: We're gonna get rid of Orton, and soon.

This comes from one of my buddies who knows some people in the new FO.

Apparently within a month.

It would make sense, but scare the hell out of me. Our only proven starter?

My friend isn't a Broncos fan, so he didn't really care. I, as all Broncos fans do, started panicking. He's been right on minor stuff before. I guess they're talking about Orton like he's already gone.

We can't keep 4 QB's. Tim needs reps, too.

Em kay, well i went over to the mane, not to post obviously since theres no one worth a crap over there posting anymore, but after i was able to pull myself away from the riveting "Do you believe in aliens" thread, i saw the thread you are refering to.
Meh. Could happen. I think MCD feels that he could have had the same results if not better results with Qwinn at QB last year that he got with Orton. I personally dont see Qwinn being worse than Orton myself, but who knows.

[jhildebrand]

i believe that was called defense

and he did not almost severe his finger...dont over dramatize it...,speaking of that he played his best with the glove on

Ok so I was over selling it to a degree :lol: He still dang near severed the tendon completely from the bone. The fact that matters is that he injured his throwing hand and it was an issue all season.

As for the D being the reason for the 6-0 start, I am not as apt as some to proclaim as much or give the D all of the credit. Marshall won the Dallas game on a pass from Orton. Marshall won the NE game on a pass from Orton. Eddie Royal won the SD game. The O deserved their share of the credit.

[EDIT: Stokley won the game in Cinci on a pass from Orton :lol:]

Ultimately, I am not one to believe that Quinn will "change his stripes" simply because he will be donning a Broncos jersey. As I said before, he couldn't beat out DA who is a clear step down from Orton.

At the end of the day, none of this matters. Tebow is the future (whether people agree with it or not). This is all just a temporary remedy (Ben Harper playing in my head).

[jhildebrand]

At least Quinn provides some mobility.

How many times did Orton begin to "scramble" only to dump it toa RB late to dang near get the RB killed?

[Lonestar]

Think about it ... if you were to get rid of Orton, when will his stock be the highest? Now, or when he loses his job during the season? It's inevitable that Tebow or Quinn will take over. Orton limits this offense TOO much and brings nothing but AVERAGE play to the table. He brings nothing to this offense.


You do realize that Orton is UFA next year and we would get nothing for him until someone needs a starter due to injury.


SO keeping a Cheap guy on the roster that KNOWS the O and had a career year last year makes a lot more sense than allowing him to leave for a really low Draft choice next year.

I think your buddy is full of it. They may have NO plans for KO after this coming year unless he lights it up and has a career year, but quinn has done nothing to show he could be our starter this year.

As for 4 QB's if they can't trade TB for a late round Draft choice he gets cut near the end of TC, unless one of the others goes down on IR.

If Quinn is the almost real deal then him and Tebow will be our QB's in 2011. with no need for anything but TC fodder from that point on.

[Mr D]

Again....I think you are over valuing this so called familiarity and experience with this system. Quinn had that very same advantage over Derek Anderson, who is a step down from Kyle Orton, and he couldn't beat DA out in Cleveland.

lol at that point in time I believe Quinn was a rookie. You can't really use that situation to try and prove a point of how Quinn was then, and how he is now - it's called progression.

Obviously, you're using that example to fit your agenda. It's really a joke to say Quinn couldn't beat out Anderson in his rookie year, I believe that is the year Anderson had his big year, and use that to make a case now - 3 years later of NFL experience. On the BROWNS.



Furthermore, prior to the beginning of last season KO had ZERO experience with all the targets who are now gone and he found a way to a 6-0 start. What's to say he cannot get on the same page with new WR's this season?

lol - you didn't get my point. I wasn't saying that he can't get on the same page - I've repeated it - that Orton does not exactly have an advantage over Quinn as many people are making it out to be. They're both on the same level as far as experience with the new pieces to this offense - and as far as the pieces retained - the only real case you can make is Jabar.... Orton didn't have much chemistry with Royal. And as far as the system is concerned - Quinn has been in it for a much longer time - so Orton does not have in advantage in that area either.

And that 6-0 start is called defense and running the ball.



Finally, let's not forget that KO almost severed his finger in the preseason last year and it bothered him all season long. I am not advocating KO to be the starter. I would be ok if Quinn WON the job. I just think some of the arguments you are making are flawed.

SEVERED his finger? Bothered him "all season long"? And you're telling me I HAVE flaws in my argument? :lol:

It is best if Quinn wins the job - I agree and that's what I originally said that he will probably win the job.

However - there are so many variables when it comes to this shit that you can't sit there and not take account of all them. In a perfect world - yes all of the QBs compete with each other and the best takes the job. That is the ideal situation.

McDaniels knows how to get max values for his players - and right now would be the time where Orton's stock will most likely be the highest.

[Mr D]

At the end of the day - Orton is the QB that doesn't win you games - he just doesn't lose them for you. That's the type of QB he is - don't bother and try and pick out a game or 2 to prove a case where he can win you games - because you're only fooling yourself.

Don't get trigger happy with the Cowboys game either - it was a greater play by Marshall than it was Orton, and a greater play by Dawkins and Champ than it was Orton.

[Lonestar]

Ok so I was over selling it to a degree :lol: He still dang near severed the tendon completely from the bone. The fact that matters is that he injured his throwing hand and it was an issue all season.

As for the D being the reason for the 6-0 start, I am not as apt as some to proclaim as much or give the D all of the credit. Marshall won the Dallas game on a pass from Orton. Marshall won the NE game on a pass from Orton. Eddie Royal won the SD game. The O deserved their share of the credit.

[EDIT: Stokley won the game in Cinci on a pass from Orton :lol:]

Ultimately, I am not one to believe that Quinn will "change his stripes" simply because he will be donning a Broncos jersey. As I said before, he couldn't beat out DA who is a clear step down from Orton.

At the end of the day, none of this matters. Tebow is the future (whether people agree with it or not). This is all just a temporary remedy (Ben Harper playing in my head).


I think those that hate KO are under stating what happened to his hand. A compound dislocated finger means the bone is sticking out of the skin.

Now I'm not sure but something like that would hurt like hell and to have that on the fore finger of his throwing hand. I know that when I have jammed that finger a couple of times it took a long time before it did not bother me.



Unless tebow takes a huge dump your correct he is the FQBQ that so many were clamoring for sine John retired . It make take him till mid 2011 to get it. But I 'd bet that he will see playing time this year as he catches on and most likely be the starer 2011.

[broncophan]

True or not - like I said Orton does not have as much experience as most people are giving him credit for when compared to Brady Quinn. Quinn has MUCH more experience in this offensive system and all the actual players you can say Orton had any experience/success with, are gone.

We need the deep ball as a threat to open up this offense.

Quinn has enough NFL experience to be our starting QB opening day, and enough to be successful.

You keep saying Orton does not have as much experience...etc.....whatever the "system".....
Quinn career ......184/353
Orton career.......841/1454

Orton....started almost every game last season with this "system"
Quinn hasn't started a whole season since his ND days.

If McD was going to start a qb based on experience.....it would be Orton....no question.

[Mr D]

Ok so I was over selling it to a degree :lol: He still dang near severed the tendon completely from the bone. The fact that matters is that he injured his throwing hand and it was an issue all season.

Players play through injuries all season - the injury didn't bother him all that much as the season progressed. Please show me where you're getting this "all-season long" issue?



As for the D being the reason for the 6-0 start, I am not as apt as some to proclaim as much or give the D all of the credit. Marshall won the Dallas game on a pass from Orton. Marshall won the NE game on a pass from Orton. Eddie Royal won the SD game. The O deserved their share of the credit.


The defense deserves most of the credit. You can watch the games and see clearly instead of heading over to the box score. Did you see the scores of most of those games?

Like I said in the previous post - Dawkins and Champ's defensive stop was just as important... and if you want to sit here and say Marshall won the game why don't you check the score? 17-10. 10 points allowed by the defense - it doesn't take a scientist to see my point.



Ultimately, I am not one to believe that Quinn will "change his stripes" simply because he will be donning a Broncos jersey. As I said before, he couldn't beat out DA who is a clear step down from Orton.

Then you obviously don't realize how bad the Browns as an organization and team was.

So Kyle Orton can come to Denver and essentially "change his stripes" in his 1st year to a completely different system which is the most complex in all of football - but Brady Quinn can't? :lol:

[arapaho2]

Ok so I was over selling it to a degree :lol: He still dang near severed the tendon completely from the bone. The fact that matters is that he injured his throwing hand and it was an issue all season.

As for the D being the reason for the 6-0 start, I am not as apt as some to proclaim as much or give the D all of the credit. Marshall won the Dallas game on a pass from Orton. Marshall won the NE game on a pass from Orton. Eddie Royal won the SD game. The O deserved their share of the credit.

[EDIT: Stokley won the game in Cinci on a pass from Orton :lol:]

Ultimately, I am not one to believe that Quinn will "change his stripes" simply because he will be donning a Broncos jersey. As I said before, he couldn't beat out DA who is a clear step down from Orton.

At the end of the day, none of this matters. Tebow is the future (whether people agree with it or not). This is all just a temporary remedy (Ben Harper playing in my head).


thats all fine sure the offense did somethings

but your not giving enough credit to the defense who held the #2 ranked offense to 10 points in the dallas game..or the #3 offense to 17 in the pats game...or holding the bengals scoreless until late in the 4th qrt when it took a miricle play to still win

as for the rest orton or quinn doesnt matter...we all know mcde will look for any reason to put in tebow

[Mr D]

You keep saying Orton does not have as much experience...etc.....whatever the "system".....
Quinn career ......184/353
Orton career.......841/1454

Orton....started almost every game last season with this "system"
Quinn hasn't started a whole season since his ND days.

If McD was going to start a qb based on experience.....it would be Orton....no question.

lol why would you include attempts from Chicago to prove a point about having more experience in the system?

It doesn't matter anyways - my point is that it's all over exaggerated to begin with.

It would be Orton and it IS as of right now. However, as a coach, you have to think that if he can have that much "success" with Orton, what makes you think he can't with Brady Quinn?

Matt Cassell didn't play college football at all and started 3 years after sitting on the best for most of his time at NE and had a great season.

I've yet to hear someone contest the point of losing Orton's key players last year...

[jhildebrand]

thats all fine sure the offense did somethings

but your not giving enough credit to the defense who held the #2 ranked offense to 10 points in the dallas game..or the #3 offense to 17 in the pats game...or holding the bengals scoreless until late in the 4th qrt when it took a miricle play to still win

as for the rest orton or quinn doesnt matter...we all know mcde will look for any reason to put in tebow

You know me, Arapaho, I have given the D the credit they deserve. I just wont write off the O's contributions at the same time. I recall a few long Bucky runs that contributed to wins.

It takes three phases to win football games. PERIOD.

[Lonestar]

You know me, Arapaho, I have given the D the credit they deserve. I just wont write off the O's contributions at the same time. I recall a few long Bucky runs that contributed to wins.

It takes three phases to win football games. PERIOD.

An amazing concept for some to comprehend. Maybe someday others will get it also.

[jhildebrand]

Players play through injuries all season - the injury didn't bother him all that much as the season progressed. Please show me where you're getting this "all-season long" issue?



The defense deserves most of the credit. You can watch the games and see clearly instead of heading over to the box score. Did you see the scores of most of those games?

Like I said in the previous post - Dawkins and Champ's defensive stop was just as important... and if you want to sit here and say Marshall won the game why don't you check the score? 17-10. 10 points allowed by the defense - it doesn't take a scientist to see my point.



Then you obviously don't realize how bad the Browns as an organization and team was.

So Kyle Orton can come to Denver and essentially "change his stripes" in his 1st year to a completely different system which is the most complex in all of football - but Brady Quinn can't? :lol:

So if the offense is so bad, how is Quinn going to come in and be any better than Orton?

Also, Quinn may have won the job in Cleveland but he was benched in Week 3. Not really a ringing endorsement.

Let me be clear. I am not pro Orton. I am not anti orton or quinn for that matter. I am just not one to buy into the arguments you presented in the OP.

Orton has as much experience in this system as Quinn. Orton had to get to know all new pieces last season and did fine. Quinn played in this system as much as Orton this time last year and was benched for his poor play.

Orton played injured all season be it the finger or the ankle. By the way, it was discussed yesterday on THE FAN that the finger was an issue all season.

My concern is Orton has had two major ankle injuries in each of the past two seasons. He already isn't mobile.

Again, when it is all said and done the winning QB is only keeping the seat warm for TT.

[Mr D]

An amazing concept for some to comprehend. Maybe someday others will get it also.

Yeah - it's a good concept if you want to be as vague as possible and turn everything into an equal situation. It's the politically correct thing to say - but this isn't some press conference where a coach has to come out and say the right thing. :lol:

There will be games where the defense outplays the offense, or the offense out plays the defense, or ST outplays both - or in situations/quarters where the defense will pick up the offense vice versa.

There are defensive teams (the Jets) and there are offensive teams (the Colts) that have the pendulum swung more in the direction of their strengths.

And during that stretch of our win streak - it was in the direction of the defense more so than the offense - fact.

The offense definitely had some good stretches, but it doesn't take a genius to see it was the defense that carried our wins.

[broncophan]

lol why would you include attempts from Chicago to prove a point about having more experience in the system?

It doesn't matter anyways - my point is that it's all over exaggerated to begin with.

It would be Orton and it IS as of right now. However, as a coach, you have to think that if he can have that much "success" with Orton, what makes you think he can't with Brady Quinn?

Matt Cassell didn't play college football at all and started 3 years after sitting on the best for most of his time at NE and had a great season.

I've yet to hear someone contest the point of losing Orton's key players last year...

lol....I am not proving a point about the "system"......you keep bringing up the system...:rolleyes:

Quinn has not proven anything to me thus far in his brief nfl career......except he has thrown about as many int's as tds.....and he hasn't led his teams, allbeit, with the browns, to a whole lot of wins.

As I have said......I hope that changes now that he is a bronco.
Losing Marshall is old news.....the broncos will be better for it in the long run......Orton had no problem having success without Marshall before he came to Denver......and whoever the qb for the broncos is.......losing Marshall will not even be a factor.

[jhildebrand]

This team is missing so many pieces and is so new in places that I don't think arguing the QB really matters.

The O is young and has no chemistry for the most part. That will affect the O.

The D is old, 9 of 11 starters over 30, will need an overhaul sooner than later. All that without mentioning the change in Coordinator.

Arguing Quinn v Orton is all but fruitless. Whomever is at the helm probably wont make that much difference over the other.

[SOCALORADO.]

So if the offense is so bad, how is Quinn going to come in and be any better than Orton?

Also, Quinn may have won the job in Cleveland but he was benched in Week 3. Not really a ringing endorsement.

Let me be clear. I am not pro Orton. I am not anti orton or quinn for that matter. I am just not one to buy into the arguments you presented in the OP.

Orton has as much experience in this system as Quinn. Orton had to get to know all new pieces last season and did fine. Quinn played in this system as much as Orton this time last year and was benched for his poor play.

Orton played injured all season be it the finger or the ankle. By the way, it was discussed yesterday on THE FAN that the finger was an issue all season.

My concern is Orton has had two major ankle injuries in each of the past two seasons. He already isn't mobile.

Again, when it is all said and done the winning QB is only keeping the seat warm for TT.

I personally think that MCD just doesnt miss one wink of sleep thinking he could at the very least get what he got outta Orton last year or better, from Qwinn under his tutoring. So i could easily see him shipping Orton off, only if the $ is right though. If he could swindle a needy team outta a 3rd or 4th cause they suddenly are desperate for either a starting QB or QB depth, then i think he does it without blinking. But if Orton isnt costing much, then it just makes good buisness sense to keep him.
I do however believe that MCDs ultimate plan is to have Tebow start ASAP, and have Qwinn as a back-up that he can occasionally use and in turn parlay that sucess into a Cassell-like deal. But in the meantime i think he wants Tebow on the field ASAP, and he and Ben are going to do whatever it takes to get Tebow up to speed and starter-ready. Orton is an afterthought to MCD, but he needs him in the absolute future unless someone offers a good deal.

[Mr D]

So if the offense is so bad, how is Quinn going to come in and be any better than Orton?

What offense? Our offense? It was bad partially due to Orton's incapability to stretch the field and our inability to run the ball.

You can make this SAME case as to when Orton was in Chicago - it's irrelevant.


Also, Quinn may have won the job in Cleveland but he was benched in Week 3. Not really a ringing endorsement.

Do you think Matt Cassel would have won the job anywhere? Do you think Kyle Orton would have won the job over most of the QBs he out performed?



Let me be clear. I am not pro Orton. I am not anti orton or quinn for that matter. I am just not one to buy into the arguments you presented in the OP.

That's fine - however at the end of the day if Quinn starts (in ANY CIRCUMSTANCE other than injury to Orton), I am right. If not, I am wrong.



Orton has as much experience in this system as Quinn. Orton had to get to know all new pieces last season and did fine. Quinn played in this system as much as Orton this time last year and was benched for his poor play.

No he does not. Quinn has 4 years at ND, + 3 in the NFL. You can make an argument they're on the same level for NFL experience (even though Quinn has spent 3 years in the system)- but the clear point is, Orton DOES not have a PURE/TRUE advantage over Quinn in this area - the only advantage he would have had is if we retained most of our main offensive contributor(s). He has more experience wearing a Broncos jersey - that is it and that's is the case most people are unknowingly defending.



Orton played injured all season be it the finger or the ankle. By the way, it was discussed yesterday on THE FAN that the finger was an issue all season.

You can easily be making this up. Did ORTON come out and say it? Did McDaniels? I believe they said it was fine and it was not affecting his play.



My concern is Orton has had two major ankle injuries in each of the past two seasons. He already isn't mobile.


You like over exaggerating much? MAJOR? He came to play the VERY NEXT WEEK after his injury last season. It was an injury - but it isn't hindering him long term like an ACL tear.

Like I said - you're obviously spinning things to fit your agenda when you have to over sell your injury report as bad as you are :lol:

[Mr D]

This team is missing so many pieces and is so new in places that I don't think arguing the QB really matters.

The O is young and has no chemistry for the most part. That will affect the O.

The D is old, 9 of 11 starters over 30, will need an overhaul sooner than later. All that without mentioning the change in Coordinator.

Arguing Quinn v Orton is all but fruitless. Whomever is at the helm probably wont make that much difference over the other.

Don't tell that to the Broncos - they're content with having experienced players.

Change in coord. seems to be seamless since we aren't changing schemes/systems... obviously making adjustments here and there. This isn't like changing from Coyer to Bates to Slowik ordeal.

[jhildebrand]

Change in coord. seems to be seamless since we aren't changing schemes/systems... obviously making adjustments here and there. This isn't like changing from Coyer to Bates to Slowik ordeal.

Again, you are much more optimistic than I am. I think it was pretty clear that McDaniels wanted Pees.

Also, how do you have any clue that the scheme will remain the same? Nolan was "mutually resigned" for a reason. Obviously McDaniels wanted some kind of change. What we don't know for certain is what that change is and how much of it.

Edit: Martindale will be a first time Coordinator which will most assuredly present some issues.

[Lonestar]

Yeah - it's a good concept if you want to be as vague as possible and turn everything into an equal situation. It's the politically correct thing to say - but this isn't some press conference where a coach has to come out and say the right thing. :lol:

There will be games where the defense outplays the offense, or the offense out plays the defense, or ST outplays both - or in situations/quarters where the defense will pick up the offense vice versa.

There are defensive teams (the Jets) and there are offensive teams (the Colts) that have the pendulum swung more in the direction of their strengths.

And during that stretch of our win streak - it was in the direction of the defense more so than the offense - fact.

The offense definitely had some good stretches, but it doesn't take a genius to see it was the defense that carried our wins.

ANd it does not take a genius to know that balanced teams have a much better chance of wining all the marbles.

Had it no been for some seller defense late in the season for the Colts they most likely not have won the SB they did.


The Jets well, UNlikely they will win until their Offense comes of age.

So you can win games with one or the other but odds are your going to get your ass kicked in the playoffs if you do not have GOOD parts on at least two parts of the triangle.

As we have experienced several times since our balanced team retired after wining it Twice.

[jhildebrand]

ANd it does not take a genius to know that balanced teams have a much better chance of wining all the marbles.

Had it no been for some seller defense late in the season for the Colts they most likely not have won the SB they did.


The Jets well, UNlikely they will win until their Offense comes of age.

So you can win games with one or the other but odds are your going to get your ass kicked in the playoffs if you do not have GOOD parts on at least two parts of the triangle.

As we have experienced several times since our balanced team retired after wining it Twice.

Shoot, our lack of balance is the reason for this team's hot starts and late meltdowns regardless of coach.

[Mr D]

Again, you are much more optimistic than I am. I think it was pretty clear that McDaniels wanted Pees.

Is there a reason why you keep making shit up?

Pees was never a serious candidate for the job.



Also, how do you have any clue that the scheme will remain the same? Nolan was "mutually resigned" for a reason. Obviously McDaniels wanted some kind of change. What we don't know for certain is what that change is and how much of it.

lol this is becoming pathetic.

It was already released that the scheme and system was staying. The terminology is going he be the same. This is an obvious factor as to why Pees was never a serious candidate.

[Mr D]

ANd it does not take a genius to know that balanced teams have a much better chance of wining all the marbles.

Had it no been for some seller defense late in the season for the Colts they most likely not have won the SB they did.


The Jets well, UNlikely they will win until their Offense comes of age.

So you can win games with one or the other but odds are your going to get your ass kicked in the playoffs if you do not have GOOD parts on at least two parts of the triangle.

As we have experienced several times since our balanced team retired after wining it Twice.

I agree with 110% that we need to connect on all cylinders in order to be a great team.

However, I can make a case that a lot of previous SB champions have the pendulum swayed heavily on either Offense or Defense - but I don't think that's a formula for consistent SB contention year in and year out. The one team that were great on both sides were Patriots during their domination and I think that's what's being installed here. McDaniels has proven to be extremely smart on both sides of the ball and understands the importance of both sides of the ball, including ST's.

This is one of the main reasons I'm so excited about our future and why I have a lot of faith in McDaniels.

[silkamilkamonico]

Again, you are much more optimistic than I am. I think it was pretty clear that McDaniels wanted Pees.

Also, how do you have any clue that the scheme will remain the same? Nolan was "mutually resigned" for a reason. Obviously McDaniels wanted some kind of change. What we don't know for certain is what that change is and how much of it.

Edit: Martindale will be a first time Coordinator which will most assuredly present some issues.

Pees was never a serious candidate, even after he became available. Carucci reported McDaniels favored 4 or 5 candidates over him.

[Magnificent Seven]

Trade Quinn for stud LB!

[BigBroncLove]

Mr. D we've had this discussion before and while we both came away disagreeing on what terms Quinn should see starting time I thought it was a civil debate. I have to admit, I think some of your posts were kinda close to crossing the line from normal discussion to personal attack. Even if you are proven right by fact or precedence I think anyone makes a better case with civil debate then name calling and laughing.

Also simply because the defensive terminology will remain the same doesn't mean the Defensive scheme will remain intact. It will be similar but it cannot remain the same. Obviously it was reported that Nolan left because McDaniels was a proponent for more blitzing and wanted adjustments in the defensive play calling because of it, something Nolan butted heads with him about. Martindale is a Ravens/Ryan disciple. His scheme will likely drift closer to that scheme with increased blitz calling. There's three distinct schemes in the 3-4 system and the Broncos likely will show more of a hybrid then the furlough/banks system they showed primarily last year.

Now I know adding more blitzing sounds like a tiny little thing but it changes a good deal of defensive preparation for the team. Blitzing more overall changes what coverages the Broncos use so they can effectively blitz on a more regular basis. It will also adjust personal assignments on a per player basis and involve more complicated zone systems in blitzing packages and gap assignments. To say they will remain the same under Martindale is a far cry from the truth IMO. IS it a complete conversion? no.... far from it, but the system will make some serious adjustments that all football players are expected to be able to adjust to.

As for Quinn... man you love that rabbit hole. I'm not going to repeat over the same ground we covered the last time we debated, I will just repost that material here instead. However I will say this. Quinn has more to adjust to then just environment. He has mroe than his fair share of short comings as a QB as well. The most serious IMO is sound decision making in real football games. You can equate his poor play, bad completion percentage, and above average interception/fumble numbers to a degree on the team that was around him, but he bares a lot of the responsibility as well.

It's not just playbooks and charts, Quinn made some very poor decisions last year. Especially when under pressure. With Clady injured at the moment and an interior being reformed likely by one if not a few Rookie inserts theres no telling what type of protection the Bronco QB will see this year. If its sub-par I don't have a lot of trust in Quinn protecting the ball, at least based on past film footage. Could that change? maybe.... but its part of the equation.

Like Jhild I am not an Orton fan, nor am I a Quinn hater. I don't really care who starts, but as a fan I want to see a very very convincing performance from Quinn before I say hes the man for the job.

[jhildebrand]

Is there a reason why you keep making shit up?

Pees was never a serious candidate for the job.



lol this is becoming pathetic.

It was already released that the scheme and system was staying. The terminology is going he be the same. This is an obvious factor as to why Pees was never a serious candidate.

So now I am making shit up? :confused:

:lol:

Why then, do you suppose, that Wink was named the DC ONLY AFTER Pees took a lesser job in Baltimore? :confused: McDaniels, if he truly wanted Wink all along, could have named him DC anytime! He didn't. The announcement only came after Pees was named in Baltimore. To add insult to injury, Pees took what would be a demotion to be in Baltimore rather than be in Denver as a DC! Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Seems to me you are the one with your head in the sand.

Finally, if nothing is changing-not even the terminology as you pointed out-then why make a change at all? :confused:

[Mr D]

So now I am making shit up? :confused:

:lol:

Why then, do you suppose, that Wink was named the DC ONLY AFTER Pees took a lesser job in Baltimore? :confused: McDaniels, if he truly wanted Wink all along, could have named him DC anytime! He didn't. The announcement only came after Pees was named in Baltimore. To add insult to injury, Pees took what would be a demotion to be in Baltimore rather than be in Denver as a DC! Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Seems to me you are the one with your head in the sand.

Finally, if nothing is changing-not even the terminology as you pointed out-then why make a change at all? :confused:


Lol I think you're alone on a pretty light boat with your conspiracy theories.

An above poster already cosigned me, I'm done with this topic the information is already out there.

That's cool if you believe McDaniels really wanted Pees; but you're obviously more stuck on standing by what you said than anything related to Broncos football.

I mean McDaniels said he had a couple candidates ahead of Pees... Period.

And the reasons for change is pretty obvious. No one said he wanted Wink all along... That's why there are interviews? Lol

You're alone with your little conspiracy theories.

[dogfish]

ND hater. :heh:

not a fan of ND, but that doesn't have anything to do with my dislike for quinn-- i dislike the guy because he sucks, not because of where he played his college ball. . . i'm impartial in that area-- i'd rather have a good prospect from a school i hate than a chump from my alma mater. . .

golden tate was one of my favorite players in this year's draft. . .



You keep saying Orton does not have as much experience...etc.....whatever the "system".....
Quinn career ......184/353
Orton career.......841/1454

Orton....started almost every game last season with this "system"
Quinn hasn't started a whole season since his ND days.

If McD was going to start a qb based on experience.....it would be Orton....no question.

seriously. . .






No he does not. Quinn has 4 years at ND, + 3 in the NFL. You can make an argument they're on the same level for NFL experience (even though Quinn has spent 3 years in the system)- but the clear point is, Orton DOES not have a PURE/TRUE advantage over Quinn in this area - the only advantage he would have had is if we retained most of our main offensive contributor(s). He has more experience wearing a Broncos jersey - that is it and that's is the case most people are unknowingly defending.


you can "make an argument" for anything you want, but that doesn't mean it'll be a good one. . . quinn may be the best madden player of all time, but he has jack and shit for NFL experience, unless you count holding a clipboard. . .

okay, maybe he knows most of the terminology because he played for weiss in college-- big deal. . . his NFL "experience" consists primarily of making sure the bench doesn't fly away. . . no comparison to the REAL, hands-on experience orton has gotten through years as a starter in this league. . . experience reading NFL defenses-- something quinn has mostly only seen on film, or from the sideline. . . or in practice wearing a red jersey that means he won't get hit. . .

orton has experience managing an NFL huddle, dealing with the clock, reading where the pressure's coming from, and all the other myriad of details that go into being a starting QB at this level. . . quinn basically hasn't done ANY of that stuff, not when live bullets are flying and the pressure's on. . . quinn's "experience" is virtually all theoretical or simulated-- it's no substitute for the real thing. . .

i'm certainly no huge orton fan, but you're selling him far short by trying to suggest that he isn't night and day more experienced than brady benchwarmer at this level-- it just ain't true. . .

orton's never going to be a stud, but he's proven to be a competent QB who you can win games with at this level, something that quinn has never come close to proving. . . doesn't mean that he can't, but he's not there now, at all. . .

if mcD lets orton go now under the belief that he can field a competitive team with quinn, he's either smarter than pretty much the entire rest of the league (including the team that hired quinn's college coach, that showed no interest in picking him up even at a bargain bin price), or he's an arrogant idiot who doesn't value his job very much. . .

at best, it would be an incredibly reckless move. . . even if he thinks quinn can hold it down based on nothing beyond a few minicamp practices, it's not worth the risk. . . if nothing else, orton is a guy who showed last year that he can at least lead a competitive team-- given that he's the only QB we have with any starting experience worth mentioning, and he's playing under a very affordable one-year deal, his value as a BACKUP is almost greater than the 4th or 5th round pick that's probably the very most we could squeeze out of him. . .

hell, even if mcD does want to start quinn, the chance that he gets hurt and you have to start tom B or tebow for the rest of the year isn't worth taking for a low draft pick. . .

[T.K.O.]

So now I am making shit up? :confused:

:lol:

Why then, do you suppose, that Wink was named the DC ONLY AFTER Pees took a lesser job in Baltimore? :confused: McDaniels, if he truly wanted Wink all along, could have named him DC anytime! He didn't. The announcement only came after Pees was named in Baltimore. To add insult to injury, Pees took what would be a demotion to be in Baltimore rather than be in Denver as a DC! Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Seems to me you are the one with your head in the sand.

Finally, if nothing is changing-not even the terminology as you pointed out-then why make a change at all? :confused:

i sure hope it changes....alot!
we gave up an avg. of 244 rushing yards per game down the stretch when we needed a win to make the playoffs !:mad:;)

[Mr D]

Mr. D we've had this discussion before and while we both came away disagreeing on what terms Quinn should see starting time I thought it was a civil debate. I have to admit, I think some of your posts were kinda close to crossing the line from normal discussion to personal attack. Even if you are proven right by fact or precedence I think anyone makes a better case with civil debate then name calling and laughing.


I know, and I kind laid back on the thought until now with Tebow being drafted, and it randomly hit me in the middle of the night.



Also simply because the defensive terminology will remain the same doesn't mean the Defensive scheme will remain intact. It will be similar but it cannot remain the same. Obviously it was reported that Nolan left because McDaniels was a proponent for more blitzing and wanted adjustments in the defensive play calling because of it, something Nolan butted heads with him about. Martindale is a Ravens/Ryan disciple. His scheme will likely drift closer to that scheme with increased blitz calling. There's three distinct schemes in the 3-4 system and the Broncos likely will show more of a hybrid then the furlough/banks system they showed primarily last year.


My point was that the intent for Wink to come to helm was to make it a more seamless transition - and not like the Coyers - Bates - Slowik circus we had in the past. You can word it how you want, the scheme/system/terminology will stay the same - the point was that we weren't exactly changing to a brand new breed of 3-4 defense (like the Dolphins are).

Just to clarify myself and to set it straight

On defensive changes
"The foundation of our defense and the terminology of those things will be the same. I think in every offseason there are always some changes that you make to things in your system. We've changed things in our offense (where) players will go ‘Why did we change the way we call that again?' Well, we felt like it was the better way to go. There are reasons to do that and we've done that defensively so far this offseason. We will continue to do that, but that nothing that no player has never gone through before. We're looking forward to growing the defense, improving he defense and really kind of mastering our understanding and fit with the defense. It's our second year with the coaching staff and our players. We've certainly added a few things that Wink is fond of that I feel very good about that we will see in September and October. I do know this: he will be an aggressive play caller. It will be an aggressive defense. We may blitz a little bit more, but that's his personality and I want him to be himself."




Now I know adding more blitzing sounds like a tiny little thing but it changes a good deal of defensive preparation for the team. Blitzing more overall changes what coverages the Broncos use so they can effectively blitz on a more regular basis. It will also adjust personal assignments on a per player basis and involve more complicated zone systems in blitzing packages and gap assignments. To say they will remain the same under Martindale is a far cry from the truth IMO. IS it a complete conversion? no.... far from it, but the system will make some serious adjustments that all football players are expected to be able to adjust to.

I don't think I got into that much detail in what I said. I obviously knew why Nolan left - and where they butt heads and the supposed reasonings - I made a huge post on it. Again - my general point was that it wasn't like changing D-cords in the past where it required a brand new overlay and blueprint.



As for Quinn... man you love that rabbit hole. I'm not going to repeat over the same ground we covered the last time we debated, I will just repost that material here instead. However I will say this. Quinn has more to adjust to then just environment. He has mroe than his fair share of short comings as a QB as well. The most serious IMO is sound decision making in real football games. You can equate his poor play, bad completion percentage, and above average interception/fumble numbers to a degree on the team that was around him, but he bares a lot of the responsibility as well.

It's not just playbooks and charts, Quinn made some very poor decisions last year. Especially when under pressure. With Clady injured at the moment and an interior being reformed likely by one if not a few Rookie inserts theres no telling what type of protection the Bronco QB will see this year. If its sub-par I don't have a lot of trust in Quinn protecting the ball, at least based on past film footage. Could that change? maybe.... but its part of the equation.

Like Jhild I am not an Orton fan, nor am I a Quinn hater. I don't really care who starts, but as a fan I want to see a very very convincing performance from Quinn before I say hes the man for the job.

It probably seems like I'm a Quinn homer but I'm not - I'm just in favor of us winning. I like to take a strong stance on things sometimes instead of just sitting in the middle to see what happens, especially when I feel strongly about something - and that something was Orton's limitations as a QB. I mean you know you have an average QB when there is glory of his "ability" to "throw the ball away." That was emphasized as his STRENGTH... :lol:

I guess the best way to explain it is that I think McDaniels can coach Quinn up to be much better than he was, and since he already has much familiarity with the system I think he can coach him up to be better than Orton was last year. I mean Orton had his fair share of learning curves from pre-season through the first few games.

At the end of the day - that's my stance... I'm calling this before anything happens and that is Quinn will be our starter in Jacksonville unless Tebow takes the job... I think Orton is done. He was simply a transition QB, and the goal of this team is to reach the playoffs and contend for a title, ever year... I think Orton might give a chance at the former, but definitely not the ladder. Will Quinn? I think he has a much better shot than Kyle.

Unless someone comes out and goes on record to say the direct opposite of me - it seems as if you're just looking for a flaw in my logic rather than taking an actual stance in the bottom line.

[Mr D]

golden tate was one of my favorite players in this year's draft. . .


You mean the RB built WR? :lol:





you can "make an argument" for anything you want, but that doesn't mean it'll be a good one. . . quinn may be the best madden player of all time, but he has jack and shit for NFL experience, unless you count holding a clipboard. . .

I made a typo - I meant to say make an argument that they have the equivalent experience that will be enough for either 1 to start Jacksonville. You can't sit here and say Orton has enough experience to write his name in stone (that's why it's pretty much open competition with Orton penciled in as #1), and you can't sit here and say Brady Quinn doesn't have enough. The point is - there is no real advantage to Orton as people make it seem.



okay, maybe he knows most of the terminology because he played for weiss in college-- big deal. . . his NFL "experience" consists primarily of making sure the bench doesn't fly away. . . no comparison to the REAL, hands-on experience orton has gotten through years as a starter in this league. . . experience reading NFL defenses-- something quinn has mostly only seen on film, or from the sideline. . . or in practice wearing a red jersey that means he won't get hit. . .

Yup - they said that about Matt Cassel, Tom Brady... and Orton too at a point. Orton has more game time experience - I agree - but it's not enough to say look he's going to be a clear cut #1 and it will take A LOT to take over his spot - and it's not enough in the system to say so either. It's not like McNabb going to the Redskins.



orton has experience managing an NFL huddle, dealing with the clock, reading where the pressure's coming from, and all the other myriad of details that go into being a starting QB at this level. . . quinn basically hasn't done ANY of that stuff, not when live bullets are flying and the pressure's on. . . quinn's "experience" is virtually all theoretical or simulated-- it's no substitute for the real thing. . .

You're getting a bit carried away. He hasn't done ANY of that "stuff"? :lol:

And you were spot on, Orton has a bunch of experience MANAGING... games. :lol:

Like I said - Quinn has put up great numbers against the Broncos in he past - and last year put up the 2nd/3rd best numbers against the Lions and put up a great performance against the 2nd best team in the AFC, and that was after Braylon left... think about it. I think if you watch those Browns games and looked at the play calling - you'd understand.



i'm certainly no huge orton fan, but you're selling him far short by trying to suggest that he isn't night and day more experienced than brady benchwarmer at this level-- it just ain't true. . .

orton's never going to be a stud, but he's proven to be a competent QB who you can win games with at this level, something that quinn has never come close to proving. . . doesn't mean that he can't, but he's not there now, at all. . .

if mcD lets orton go now under the belief that he can field a competitive team with quinn, he's either smarter than pretty much the entire rest of the league (including the team that hired quinn's college coach, that showed no interest in picking him up even at a bargain bin price), or he's an arrogant idiot who doesn't value his job very much. . .


Yeah he doesn't value his job very much. You're spot on there. :lol:


at best, it would be an incredibly reckless move. . . even if he thinks quinn can hold it down based on nothing beyond a few minicamp practices, it's not worth the risk. . . if nothing else, orton is a guy who showed last year that he can at least lead a competitive team-- given that he's the only QB we have with any starting experience worth mentioning, and he's playing under a very affordable one-year deal, his value as a BACKUP is almost greater than the 4th or 5th round pick that's probably the very most we could squeeze out of him. . .

Is it? Let me ask you - you're sitting there in your office and you're pretty much confident that Orton will eventually lose his job. Do you trade him now or do you wait until he publicly loses his job, thus decreasing his value?




hell, even if mcD does want to start quinn, the chance that he gets hurt and you have to start tom B or tebow for the rest of the year isn't worth taking for a low draft pick. . .


You don't know what draft pick it is or can be. 3rd or 4th round is pretty is a lot better than a 5th or 6th. He took the chance with Chris Simms - anything this year is an upgrade.

It's apparent you don't like Quinn much...

[BigBroncLove]

I don't think I got into that much detail in what I said. I obviously knew why Nolan left - and where they butt heads and the supposed reasonings - I made a huge post on it. Again - my general point was that it wasn't like changing D-cords in the past where it required a brand new overlay and blueprint.

That's fair, we are in agreement there.


It probably seems like I'm a Quinn homer but I'm not - I'm just in favor of us winning. I like to take a strong stance on things sometimes instead of just sitting in the middle to see what happens, especially when I feel strongly about something - and that something was Orton's limitations as a QB. I mean you know you have an average QB when there is glory of his "ability" to "throw the ball away." That was emphasized as his STRENGTH... :lol:

I guess the best way to explain it is that I think McDaniels can coach Quinn up to be much better than he was, and since he already has much familiarity with the system I think he can coach him up to be better than Orton was last year. I mean Orton had his fair share of learning curves from pre-season through the first few games.

At the end of the day - that's my stance... I'm calling this before anything happens and that is Quinn will be our starter in Jacksonville unless Tebow takes the job... I think Orton is done. He was simply a transition QB, and the goal of this team is to reach the playoffs and contend for a title, ever year... I think Orton might give a chance at the former, but definitely not the ladder. Will Quinn? I think he has a much better shot than Kyle.

Unless someone comes out and goes on record to say the direct opposite of me - it seems as if you're just looking for a flaw in my logic rather than taking an actual stance in the bottom line.

I think your looking for absolutes here a little to much. The best point of views in my opinion are balanced. If your looking for someone around here to tell you Orton is the answer for the Broncos long term, your not gonna find many takers because we all see the flaws in his game.

Thing is while you seem more than apt at visiting his issues you seem rather dismissive about Quinns who has more than his fair share of problems as a QB in this league to date. Quinn has more upside, sure, but he has far more flaws as a QB IMO. Lack of timely decisions, moves through his progression a tick to slow, panics under pressure, not a great pocket presence (senses the rush to a degree but does not seem natural in the pocket as more polished QB's in the league), poor accuracy at all levels of the fiels (which he has addressed to a degree), and so-so arm strength.

As I see it Orton issues are looks down receivers rather then looks them off making it easier for DB's to react, poor mobility, bad pocket presence, bad arm strength with reduced accuracy in long passes, and still has some work to do in learning the offense.

Of the two Orton has more issues that will likely not be correctable. Quinn has more issues that are far more costly in games.

Say what you want about throwing away the ball, it is an important part of any QB's skill set. I was at the 9ers Broncos week 1 preseason game last year. Orton in that game did not throw one pass away properly which cost the Broncos three interceptions. Simms did, and its nice to see that. Obviously that wasn't a real showing as to the skills of either QB, which goes back to a point we discussed earlier about the validity of what players will produce in real games vs preseason.

Point being you seem to looking for a knock down full blown debate/fight on one spectrum to the other. If we are picking at parts of your argument its because each piece is a part of the foundation of that argument. If you are lacking foundation (and this is a purely opinion based argument at this point) then your point has nothing to stand on. Dont take this the wrong way, its all opinion so no one can be right or wrong (until time proves it one way or the other). So you want a full blwon stance spelled out (which is what I felt was made clear in our other debate) here it is....

It's Ortons job to lose. Especially when it comes to week 1. Preseason and TC are not solid tellers as to who will be more effective in real games. Orton looked like crap last year in preseason, which wasn't what we saw from him in the regular season. TC/PS will have effect down the line if Quinn shows himself capable but will not change things week 1. Orton, unless hes terrible through all of TC/PS, will get a shot to make his case at the start of the season. Quinn has more issues then you are identifying and Orton is not a long term answer.

[Mr D]

Let me also say - if he does trade Orton before Quinn "officially" or actually wins the job - I think there will be heat just because of the nature of it - but I honestly don't think it's a big deal, per everything I've been saying in this thread. Orton has not done enough for everyone to sit here and say the things that are being said. He simply has 16 games in a orange and blue jersey, that's why people are defending him.

Will he realistically be in the equation for our play off push this season? I don't think so.

I think about it like last year - with Quinn it's a much better situation... even those it's his 1st year here I don't think it will be much of a downgrade from Orton to begin with - and the potential of game plannings opens up like flowers in the spring.

[T.K.O.]

Is it? Let me ask you - you're sitting there in your office and you're pretty much confident that Orton will eventually lose his job. Do you trade him now or do you wait until he publicly loses his job, thus decreasing his value?





he was a Bonus prize in a trade for high draft picks....his value will not be diminished by another year of showing he can adapt and play well with a new team:salute:

[Mr D]

I think your looking for absolutes here a little to much. The best point of views in my opinion are balanced. If your looking for someone around here to tell you Orton is the answer for the Broncos long term, your not gonna find many takers because we all see the flaws in his game.


I'm not looking for anyone to say he is the long term solution - however it seems as if I'm not seeing as many people confident he'll be the starter in Jacksonville as I was expecting. :lol:



Thing is while you seem more than apt at visiting his issues you seem rather dismissive about Quinns who has more than his fair share of problems as a QB in this league to date. Quinn has more upside, sure, but he has far more flaws as a QB IMO. Lack of timely decisions, moves through his progression a tick to slow, panics under pressure, not a great pocket presence (senses the rush to a degree but does not seem natural in the pocket as more polished QB's in the league), poor accuracy at all levels of the fiels (which he has addressed to a degree), and so-so arm strength.

As I see it Orton issues are looks down receivers rather then looks them off making it easier for DB's to react, poor mobility, bad pocket presence, bad arm strength with reduced accuracy in long passes, and still has some work to do in learning the offense.


I'm not dissecting the QBs right now - this is where the "balanced" part of me comes in. I will wait till TC, more reports, pre-season to make those presumptions because right now he hasn't done one thing for the Denver Broncos and I will wait and see what he does here.



Of the two Orton has more issues that will likely not be correctable. Quinn has more issues that are far more costly in games.


I'm using the basis of McDaniels being able to coach up Quinn and help correct his mistakes.




Point being you seem to looking for a knock down full blown debate/fight on one spectrum to the other. If we are picking at parts of your argument its because each piece is a part of the foundation of that argument. If you are lacking foundation (and this is a purely opinion based argument at this point) then your point has nothing to stand on.

I'm not looking for anything - I'm just looking to have an active discussion. This is obviously not "purely" opinion based - I've written more in here than necessary.

I think you missed the idea:

Go ahead - knock at my logic knock on what I have to say - but if you're going to take a strong stance at knocking that, but you're not taking a strong stance in knocking my bottom line... that is mission accomplished for me. :salute:

and the bottom line is, Quinn will most likely be the starter, unless Tebow outperforms him.

[Mr D]

Let me clarify - I don't think Quinn is the God of QBs or the next great thing - I just think he is better than Orton... both have their own issues. I think Quinn can be coached to fix most of his and Orton will forever be what he is.

[Mr D]

he was a Bonus prize in a trade for high draft picks....his value will not be diminished by another year of showing he can adapt and play well with a new team:salute:

that was his value then ... I'm not talking about his value now.

It's a tough question to answer to be honest and I'm sure that's what McDaniels is either faced or already faced and made a decision...

If he decides to trade Orton before TC I think he'll face so much heat from the media it won't even be funny. It would be an obvious business decision, but I think the whole "trust" thing would just go out of line.

[broncophan]

Let me clarify - I don't think Quinn is the God of QBs or the next great thing - I just think he is better than Orton... both have their own issues. I think Quinn can be coached to fix most of his and Orton will forever be what he is.

lol......Quinn may be better.......earlier you posted 2 games last season where Quinn had decent games.....vs. the Chargers.....and Lions.

Sorry.........2 games just doesn't get it for me........but....time will tell.......and I am sure he will have a good as chance as the other 3 qbs to show what he can do heading into next season.

[BigBroncLove]

I'm not looking for anyone to say he is the long term solution - however it seems as if I'm not seeing as many people confident he'll be the starter in Jacksonville as I was expecting. :lol:



I'm not dissecting the QBs right now - this is where the "balanced" part of me comes in. I will wait till TC, more reports, pre-season to make those presumptions because right now he hasn't done one thing for the Denver Broncos and I will wait and see what he does here.



I'm using the basis of McDaniels being able to coach up Quinn and help correct his mistakes.



I'm not looking for anything - I'm just looking to have an active discussion. This is obviously not "purely" opinion based - I've written more in here than necessary.

I think you missed the idea:

Go ahead - knock at my logic knock on what I have to say - but if you're going to take a strong stance at knocking that, but you're not taking a strong stance in knocking my bottom line... that is mission accomplished for me. :salute:

and the bottom line is, Quinn will most likely be the starter, unless Tebow outperforms him.

What? I thought my point was well stated in past debate and here


So you want a full blwon stance spelled out (which is what I felt was made clear in our other debate) here it is....

It's Ortons job to lose. Especially when it comes to week 1. Preseason and TC are not solid tellers as to who will be more effective in real games. Orton looked like crap last year in preseason, which wasn't what we saw from him in the regular season. TC/PS will have effect down the line if Quinn shows himself capable but will not change things week 1. Orton, unless hes terrible through all of TC/PS, will get a shot to make his case at the start of the season. Quinn has more issues then you are identifying and Orton is not a long term answer.

[Mr D]

lol......Quinn may be better.......earlier you posted 2 games last season where Quinn had decent games.....vs. the Chargers.....and Lions.

Sorry.........2 games just doesn't get it for me........but....time will tell.......and I am sure he will have a good as chance as the other 3 qbs to show what he can do heading into next season.

Decent? :lol:


I know it seems as if I'm just taking such a small sample size and going - LOOK HE'S GREAT... I'm really not... all I'm saying it that those games prove he play at the NFL level and be good... and that he has the ability to put up good numbers and execute a game plan. Anytime you can put up those numbers I think it tells you he is capable that's all. And the fact that it was with the Browns means much more.

I mean Kyle Orton never even put up those type of passing numbers before Denver...

[broncophan]

Decent? :lol:


I know it seems as if I'm just taking such a small sample size and going - LOOK HE'S GREAT... I'm really not... all I'm saying it that those games prove he play at the NFL level and be good... and that he has the ability to put up good numbers and execute a game plan. Anytime you can put up those numbers I think it tells you he is capable that's all. And the fact that it was with the Browns means much more.

I mean Kyle Orton never even put up those type of passing numbers before Denver...

lol......I give up.......Give Brady a kiss good night before you go to sleep tonight........

[Mr D]

What? I thought my point was well stated in past debate and here

I obviously don't specifically remember THAT post and I wasn't specifically calling YOU out with my line.

So I guess we have it - you're saying Orton will start at the beginning of the season and I'm saying Quinn most likely - or Tebow.

[Mr D]

lol......I give up.......Give Brady a kiss good night before you go to sleep tonight........

I know it seems like that... but it really isn't :lol:

At the end of the day I want Tebow to come through when it's all said and done.

[BigBroncLove]

I obviously don't specifically remember THAT post and I wasn't specifically calling YOU out with my line.

So I guess we have - you're saying Orton will start at the beginning of the season and I'm saying Quinn most likely - or Tebow.

That was actually in the post just above yours, and yes there was a previous debate in which those exact lines were drawn out almost a month ago.

[Mr D]

That was actually in the post just above yours, and yes there was a previous debate in which those exact lines were drawn out almost a month ago.

unless you edited it and added it in, I didn't see it.

And yes... I know that.

:beer:

[jhildebrand]

Lol I think you're alone on a pretty light boat with your conspiracy theories.

So much a conspiracy theory that each of the Broncos writers for the post and each personality on the FAN has questioned the move and motive. Hardly a conspiracy theory.

I have also seen several other posters and this debate, when it took place, espouse the same sentiment.



An above poster already cosigned me, I'm done with this topic the information is already out there.

Another poster cosigned you? What are we buying cars here? :confused:

Why bother if you cant address the post head on?



That's cool if you believe McDaniels really wanted Pees; but you're obviously more stuck on standing by what you said than anything related to Broncos football.

I thought the D coordinator position has everything to do with the Broncos. The fact is I made a very simple point to which you skirted with all the bull shit above. Also, several people reported that Pees was going to be the coordinator from the minute Nolan was "mutually resigned." Why would that be reported if there isn't even a little truth to it?



I mean McDaniels said he had a couple candidates ahead of Pees... Period.

Really? Who were they? Show me one article of the Broncos interviewing any candidate not named Pees or Wink. :coffee:



And the reasons for change is pretty obvious. No one said he wanted Wink all along... That's why there are interviews? Lol

Pretty obvious? What are those reasons? You seem to know so much about the inner workings of the coaching staff at dove valley.

Please enlighten me as to why those changes were so obviously needed

By the way, don't skirt the issue like last time. Who were the interviews?



You're alone with your little conspiracy theories.

Sure thing, partner. :rolleyes: If I was so alone you could have spent more time addressing my post head on instead of using other posters to try to make your argument and cheap deflection.

[Lonestar]

not a fan of ND, but that doesn't have anything to do with my dislike for quinn-- i dislike the guy because he sucks, not because of where he played his college ball. . . i'm impartial in that area-- i'd rather have a good prospect from a school i hate than a chump from my alma mater. . .

golden tate was one of my favorite players in this year's draft. . .




seriously. . .




you can "make an argument" for anything you want, but that doesn't mean it'll be a good one. . . quinn may be the best madden player of all time, but he has jack and shit for NFL experience, unless you count holding a clipboard. . .

okay, maybe he knows most of the terminology because he played for weiss in college-- big deal. . . his NFL "experience" consists primarily of making sure the bench doesn't fly away. . . no comparison to the REAL, hands-on experience orton has gotten through years as a starter in this league. . . experience reading NFL defenses-- something quinn has mostly only seen on film, or from the sideline. . . or in practice wearing a red jersey that means he won't get hit. . .

orton has experience managing an NFL huddle, dealing with the clock, reading where the pressure's coming from, and all the other myriad of details that go into being a starting QB at this level. . . quinn basically hasn't done ANY of that stuff, not when live bullets are flying and the pressure's on. . . quinn's "experience" is virtually all theoretical or simulated-- it's no substitute for the real thing. . .

i'm certainly no huge orton fan, but you're selling him far short by trying to suggest that he isn't night and day more experienced than brady benchwarmer at this level-- it just ain't true. . .

orton's never going to be a stud, but he's proven to be a competent QB who you can win games with at this level, something that quinn has never come close to proving. . . doesn't mean that he can't, but he's not there now, at all. . .

if mcD lets orton go now under the belief that he can field a competitive team with quinn, he's either smarter than pretty much the entire rest of the league (including the team that hired quinn's college coach, that showed no interest in picking him up even at a bargain bin price), or he's an arrogant idiot who doesn't value his job very much. . .

at best, it would be an incredibly reckless move. . . even if he thinks quinn can hold it down based on nothing beyond a few minicamp practices, it's not worth the risk. . . if nothing else, orton is a guy who showed last year that he can at least lead a competitive team-- given that he's the only QB we have with any starting experience worth mentioning, and he's playing under a very affordable one-year deal, his value as a BACKUP is almost greater than the 4th or 5th round pick that's probably the very most we could squeeze out of him. . .

hell, even if mcD does want to start quinn, the chance that he gets hurt and you have to start tom B or tebow for the rest of the year isn't worth taking for a low draft pick. . .


good post:salute:

but have to say IF the price is right Orton is gone. However unlikely that would be:laugh:

[Mr D]

So much a conspiracy theory that each of the Broncos writers for the post and each personality on the FAN has questioned the move and motive. Hardly a conspiracy theory.

I have also seen several other posters and this debate, when it took place, espouse the same sentiment.



Another poster cosigned you? What are we buying cars here? :confused:

Why bother if you cant address the post head on?



I thought the D coordinator position has everything to do with the Broncos. The fact is I made a very simple point to which you skirted with all the bull shit above. Also, several people reported that Pees was going to be the coordinator from the minute Nolan was "mutually resigned." Why would that be reported if there isn't even a little truth to it?



Really? Who were they? Show me one article of the Broncos interviewing any candidate not named Pees or Wink. :coffee:



Pretty obvious? What are those reasons? You seem to know so much about the inner workings of the coaching staff at dove valley.

Please enlighten me as to why those changes were so obviously needed

By the way, don't skirt the issue like last time. Who were the interviews?



Sure thing, partner. :rolleyes: If I was so alone you could have spent more time addressing my post head on instead of using other posters to try to make your argument and cheap deflection.


You're obviously out for me when you haven't quoted others who have COSIGNED (:lol:) with me.

Like I said, the information is out there, this is a dead topic. There is a reason why you're the only one in here stuck on this topic.

You were, you are wrong... the information is out there. Just go look for it instead of making up your conspiracy theories. :lol:

:coffee:

[jhildebrand]

You're obviously out for me when you haven't quoted others who have COSIGNED (:lol:) with me.

Like I said, the information is out there, this is a dead topic. There is a reason why you're the only one in here stuck on this topic.

You were, you are wrong... the information is out there. Just go look for it instead of making up your conspiracy theories. :lol:

:coffee:

Again skirting the post and the arguments presented. If they are cockamamie, screwy conspiracy theories, they would be easy to debunk. However you only choose to deflect and skirt.

The fact is you used poor logic in the OP. You then mentioned your mysterious friend close to the organization.

Regarding the other bull crap:

**Wink cannot run the system Nolan ran. It is Nolan's system. Wink worked with Nolan for one season and now he has the system perfected? Get real!

**As for Pees, there is no article mentioning McDaniels liked others better. I checked every single one of Carucci's posts and articles on NFL.com and not one mentions anything.

**Finally, what is McD going to say after the fact? McD made a move with Nolan without first having his replacement lined up.

[FanInAZ]

Mr D,

Just watched those 2 youtube clip, but I really was not that impressed with Quinn. He scored his last 2 TDs against the Chargers who were in a "prevent" D. His 1st 2 TDs against the Lions were blown coverages. His 2nd 2 were much more impressive. Even though Stafford through a couple of pick, I was far more impressed him then Quinn in that game.

[Bosco]

So now I am making shit up? :confused:

:lol:

Why then, do you suppose, that Wink was named the DC ONLY AFTER Pees took a lesser job in Baltimore? :confused: McDaniels, if he truly wanted Wink all along, could have named him DC anytime! He didn't. The announcement only came after Pees was named in Baltimore. To add insult to injury, Pees took what would be a demotion to be in Baltimore rather than be in Denver as a DC! Hmmmmmmmmmmm. Seems to me you are the one with your head in the sand.

Finally, if nothing is changing-not even the terminology as you pointed out-then why make a change at all? :confused:

Are you intentionally making shit up? I doubt it. Rather, you're falling victim to typical sub-standard Broncos reporting.

Our interest in Dean Pees was greatly overstated, mainly by lazy media types who figured we'd bring him in just because he was a Patriot. To be honest, I don't even think we formally interviewed Pees.

Also I found this thread just for reference.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108200



Regarding the other bull crap:

**Wink cannot run the system Nolan ran. It is Nolan's system. Wink worked with Nolan for one season and now he has the system perfected? Get real! Actually our defense is based much more off of what Josh was around in New England. Mike Nolan gave a radio interview not long after he was hired where he talked about how McD had him scrap his read and react defense and build a more aggressive, attacking defense like what New England runs.

Wink will add his own little flavor to the defense but you're basically going to see the same style defense this year as you did in 2009.


**As for Pees, there is no article mentioning McDaniels liked others better. I checked every single one of Carucci's posts and articles on NFL.com and not one mentions anything. See my link above.

[Mr D]

The fact is you used poor logic in the OP. You then mentioned your mysterious friend close to the organization.


Really? Where did I mention my mysterious friend?

Again, I think you like making shit up. :lol:

this is why there is really no need for me to "debunk" your conspiracy theories - the information is out and there, and it's easy to find...and even if I did - you'd still be rambling and spinning about conspiracy theories and making up fantasy realities as you are now about the Broncos and what I say.

Someone will chime in sooner or later to correct you.

:lol:

[Mr D]

Mr D,

Just watched those 2 youtube clip, but I really was not that impressed with Quinn. He scored his last 2 TDs against the Chargers who were in a "prevent" D. His 1st 2 TDs against the Lions were blown coverages. His 2nd 2 were much more impressive. Even though Stafford through a couple of pick, I was far more impressed him then Quinn in that game.

Those last 2 TDs where in the redzone I believe... anytime you can score in the redzone with your arms it takes some skill because of the shortened field. I'm not sure if you're talking about prevent during the drive or on that specific play, but I guess you can take away from him whatever you'd like.

The long bombs were nice throws - blown coverage or not... I'm not sure how you use that AGAINST him? Kyle Orton made those long bombs to Marshall against the Redskins and that seems to be the main counter when people talk about Kyle's inabilities to throw the deep ball.

The top QBs in the league take advantage of blown coverages all the time... I'm not sure how you take that away from someone. You don't need to be making these shoe box passes between 2-3 defenders every time to prove something... the fact is they were TDs.

However if you don't think it's impressive, that's fine. Everybody is really entitled to their own opinion (as long as you don't go making shit up :lol:). That's good to know SOMEONE watched the videos. :beer:

[Mr D]

I also just read over at DB.com that on Around the Horn yesterday, Woody Paige said he spent some time with Josh last weekend in the film room and with what he saw there will be no way Tebow is the back up QB starting this season, and "hinted that Josh will more than likely name Tebow starter to open the season."

[FanInAZ]

Those last 2 TDs where in the redzone I believe... anytime you can score in the redzone with your arms it takes some skill because of the shortened field. I'm not sure if you're talking about prevent during the drive or on that specific play, but I guess you can take away from him whatever you'd like.

The long bombs were nice throws - blown coverage or not... I'm not sure how you use that AGAINST him? Kyle Orton made those long bombs to Marshall against the Redskins and that seems to be the main counter when people talk about Kyle's inabilities to throw the deep ball.

The top QBs in the league take advantage of blown coverages all the time... I'm not sure how you take that away from someone. You don't need to be making these shoe box passes between 2-3 defenders every time to prove something... the fact is they were TDs.

However if you don't think it's impressive, that's fine. Everybody is really entitled to their own opinion (as long as you don't go making shit up :lol:). That's good to know SOMEONE watched the videos. :beer:

Its not that I'm using those bombs against him, but I just don't get excited about someone burning a bad D. The last 2 passes were in deed in the redzone and against tight coverage, that I found impressive.

At this point in time, Quinn is a lot like Plummer when he came here. He had a disappointing career playing for a very bad team. The biggest difference between the 2 is that Quinn has not really been given enough playing time to have a chance to develop his talent. He has had only played in 14 game, including 12 starts, in this 3 seasons.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/Q/QuinBr00.htm

Granted, he did lose some playing time when he got injured in his rookie year during the only game he started that year. So, I'm looking forward to seeing him in pre-season to see if he might be the answer to our QB puzzle.