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View Full Version : Can a Returner Make Special Teams Special?



Ziggy
05-08-2008, 03:32 AM
Let's face it. The Broncos special teams have been bad for a while. Our return teams haven't struck fear into opponents since the days of Rick Upchurch bringing them back. This year we invested a 2nd round draft pick on a kick returner. Can Eddie Royal, and possibly a guy like Anthony Alridge make our special teams(return teams that is), special again, or does it really even matter if you don't have decent blocking?

Some would say that a great return man would fix the problems in our return game. Others would argue that you could put Devin Hester behind last year's special teams in Denver and he would look average himself.

Dante Hall was traded to St Louis last season. The year before, in 2006, the Rams finished 26th in KO returns and tied for 27th in punt returns. With Hall, in 2007 the Rams finished 9th in KO returns and 4th in punt returns. Conversely, the Chiefs went from 24th in KO returns and 23rd in punt returns in 2006, to 30th in KO returns and 25th in punt returns in 2007.

In 2005, the Bears were 29th in KO returns and tied for 9th in punt returns. After drafting Hester in 2006 they were 9th in KO returns and 2nd in punt returns.

In 2004 the Texans were 20th in KO returns and 23rd in punt returns. After drafting Jerome Mathis in 2005 they were 2nd in KO returns and 22nd in punt returns. Mathis only had 12 of the teams 30 punt returns that season.

I'm a beleiver that special teams is comprised of 11 players that all have to do thier job in order to acheive success. BUT...a special returner can make up for a lot of mistakes. Would Devin Hester be an average returner in Denver? I say no. Here's to Fast Eddie Royal being one of the special ones. :beer:

omac
05-08-2008, 03:58 AM
What I don't get is, if it's the blocking that's bad, what made it bad in Denver's case? Is it the coaching, the scheme, the lack of talent of the players?

Usually, special teams is where players try to prove themselves in order to get to the main squad. Usually, you don't risk your starters, although I know we have with Champ. This makes me think that the talent level, at least for the blockers, should be around the same for all teams. So why is Denver bad at blocking in special teams?

elsid13
05-08-2008, 05:06 AM
What I don't get is, if it's the blocking that's bad, what made it bad in Denver's case? Is it the coaching, the scheme, the lack of talent of the players?

Usually, special teams is where players try to prove themselves in order to get to the main squad. Usually, you don't risk your starters, although I know we have with Champ. This makes me think that the talent level, at least for the blockers, should be around the same for all teams. So why is Denver bad at blocking in special teams?

It the lack of quality depth on the team, especial at LB and WR

ssgtwc
05-08-2008, 05:10 AM
When I first read this article my first thought was, how can a returner return with crappy blocking? Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I saw way too many missed blocks on both kick offs and punts this past season. I dunno.

topscribe
05-08-2008, 05:18 AM
If they give Fast Eddie some blocking, he'll do the rest!! http://forums.denverbroncos.com/images/smilies/th_rockon.gif

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ssgtwc
05-08-2008, 05:21 AM
If they give Fast Eddie some blocking, he'll do the rest!! http://forums.denverbroncos.com/images/smilies/th_rockon.gif

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That's what I'm wishing for!!

scott.475
05-08-2008, 08:12 AM
Two words: Domenik Hixon

He did pretty well after we cut him...go figure.

LRtagger
05-08-2008, 08:48 AM
Of course an elite return man can make our special teams BETTER. But an elite return man alone will not make our special teams ELITE. I have no doubt that we will be better on ST than we have been in the last couple of years...but I still dont think we will be top 10 in the league. We need better coaching and better players, not just one or two fast return guys.

BOSSHOGG30
05-08-2008, 09:49 AM
Denver won just about every aspect of the game versus the Chicago Bears last year........except special teams. Devin Hester lit us up and was one of the main factors on why Denver lost that game.

Kaylore
05-08-2008, 10:01 AM
Our special teams were actually much improved last year. We didn't do so well against the top two units in the country in Chicago and Buffalo, but starting field position was better and we had our first return for a touchdown in like three years with a nobody carrying the rock. Scott O'Brien is slowly turning this unit around and it will be much better next year because of it. Unfortunately when it is, most people will say its all because of Eddie Royal.:rolleyes:

SOCALORADO.
05-08-2008, 10:09 AM
Our special teams were actually much improved last year. We didn't do so well against the top two units in the country in Chicago and Buffalo, but starting field position was better and we had our first return for a touchdown in like three years with a nobody carrying the rock. Scott O'Brien is slowly turning this unit around and it will be much better next year because of it. Unfortunately when it is, most people will say its all because of Eddie Royal.:rolleyes:

Ahha! Found ya! That "other" forum finally "banned" everyone for abusing the children,(whatever) so we had to migrate again.
the REV was getting busy spitting fire and brimstone, so they banished us from OZ. Kidding!! Kidding!!
I see Lex and some of the others have managed to find this place as well!
There should be a mass exodus over to here in the near future.

So on the topic of STs, alls i can say is Hixon suddleny looked pretty good with some blockers out in front of him in NY, so i think its more of a team of guys working together on the same page, AND having a guy who is elusive and smooth running it back for ya as well. Last year, DENs STs looked like everyone was just running around lost, trying to pick up a block here and there, but no real discipline out there.
Just mt 2 cents

Mike
05-08-2008, 10:15 AM
Ahha! Found ya! That "other" forum finally "banned" everyone for abusing the children,(whatever) so we had to migrate again.
the REV was getting busy spitting fire and brimstone, so they banished us from OZ. Kidding!! Kidding!!
I see Lex and some of the others have managed to find this place as well!
There should be a mass exodus over to here in the near future.

So on the topic of STs, alls i can say is Hixon suddleny looked pretty good with some blockers out in front of him in NY, so i think its more of a team of guys working together on the same page, AND having a guy who is elusive and smooth running it back for ya as well. Last year, DENs STs looked like everyone was just running around lost, trying to pick up a block here and there, but no real discipline out there.
Just mt 2 cents

Not sure it was just last year. Their STs have sucked and looked lost for the past few seasons. Can't even remember when the last time I thought the special teams were special (other than Elam, of course).

Welcome to the site. We'll try and make sure our children don't abuse you guys. ;)

SOCALORADO.
05-08-2008, 10:23 AM
Not sure it was just last year. Their STs have sucked and looked lost for the past few seasons. Can't even remember when the last time I thought the special teams were special (other than Elam, of course).

Welcome to the site. We'll try and make sure our children don't abuse you guys. ;)

Yeah, STs has not exactly been "special" for a while, but it wasnt too bad when DWill was returning kicks if i remember correctly. They at least looked dangerous at times, and had a little swagger to them.
I dont think an NFL team has to have a absolute stellar STs like say CHi for example, but jeez, at least get the freakin ball past the 6 yard line ok?!?!?
You can just feel the air come out of the offense before they even get on the field, when Cutlers taking the snap in the end zone.

And thanks for the Welcome. Alot of OManers looking for a decent home when the site went down. Went to the Official DEN Broncos site forum, but they are a little "G" rated over there, not alot going on.

Kaylore
05-08-2008, 10:23 AM
Ahha! Found ya! That "other" forum finally "banned" everyone for abusing the children,(whatever) so we had to migrate again.
the REV was getting busy spitting fire and brimstone, so they banished us from OZ. Kidding!! Kidding!!
I see Lex and some of the others have managed to find this place as well!
There should be a mass exodus over to here in the near future.

So on the topic of STs, alls i can say is Hixon suddleny looked pretty good with some blockers out in front of him in NY, so i think its more of a team of guys working together on the same page, AND having a guy who is elusive and smooth running it back for ya as well. Last year, DENs STs looked like everyone was just running around lost, trying to pick up a block here and there, but no real discipline out there.
Just mt 2 cents

Actually Hixon is an interesting subject. He was on the radio here and he admitted that after Kevin Everett he was timid and said it took getting cut to wake him up. It's unfortunate that it meant the loss of Hixon for the Broncos, but it worked out for him and the Giants in the end.

underrated29
05-08-2008, 10:27 AM
Now i didnt watch a lot of the giants games last year, but I keep hearing how well hixon did with the giants..

He returned 1 for a td. Just like Glen freaking martinez. Now dom might have had a bunch of other good runs, but i dont remember seeing anything in the few Gmen games i saw.

Yeah he won a superbowl, but that was more him getting picked up by the right team.

So please correct me if i am wrong, but i dont think hixon is very good, nor did the change of scenery help him anymore than it would had glen martinez gone there instead.

SOCALORADO.
05-08-2008, 10:39 AM
Now i didnt watch a lot of the giants games last year, but I keep hearing how well hixon did with the giants..

He returned 1 for a td. Just like Glen freaking martinez. Now dom might have had a bunch of other good runs, but i dont remember seeing anything in the few Gmen games i saw.

Yeah he won a superbowl, but that was more him getting picked up by the right team.

So please correct me if i am wrong, but i dont think hixon is very good, nor did the change of scenery help him anymore than it would had glen martinez gone there instead.

just say you hate Hixon, and we can move on.
(sacrasm on!)

cmhargrove
05-08-2008, 10:40 AM
Now i didnt watch a lot of the giants games last year, but I keep hearing how well hixon did with the giants..

He returned 1 for a td. Just like Glen freaking martinez. Now dom might have had a bunch of other good runs, but i dont remember seeing anything in the few Gmen games i saw.

Yeah he won a superbowl, but that was more him getting picked up by the right team.

So please correct me if i am wrong, but i dont think hixon is very good, nor did the change of scenery help him anymore than it would had glen martinez gone there instead.

Absolutely.

Hixon did not play any special part in the Giant's run for the title. No one has to game plan for Hixon, no one "fears" him. I wish him well, but i'm glad he moved on. He had his time to make something happen for the Broncos and he didn't.

I believe that we also suffered from the loss of leadership and identity on special teams - new coach, new captain, etc.. This year, we have some experience, but also several "new bodies" especially linebackers that should help us greatly.

Royal has a strength, confidence, and experience to make things happen on his own. I think he gets 3-4 TD's this year and makes other teams "game plan" for him in particular. Just 6-8 yards better field position would be huge for this team.

SOCALORADO.
05-08-2008, 10:44 AM
Absolutely.

Hixon did not play any special part in the Giant's run for the title. No one has to game plan for Hixon, no one "fears" him. I wish him well, but i'm glad he moved on. He had his time to make something happen for the Broncos and he didn't.

I believe that we also suffered from the loss of leadership and identity on special teams - new coach, new captain, etc.. This year, we have some experience, but also several "new bodies" especially linebackers that should help us greatly.

Royal has a strength, confidence, and experience to make things happen on his own. I think he gets 3-4 TD's this year and makes other teams "game plan" for him in particular. Just 6-8 yards better field position would be huge for this team.

Have any of you watched Royal return punts? Any video by chance?
I know that he is a solid returner, i just havent seen any video myself.

Mike
05-08-2008, 10:46 AM
Absolutely.

Hixon did not play any special part in the Giant's run for the title. No one has to game plan for Hixon, no one "fears" him. I wish him well, but i'm glad he moved on. He had his time to make something happen for the Broncos and he didn't.

I believe that we also suffered from the loss of leadership and identity on special teams - new coach, new captain, etc.. This year, we have some experience, but also several "new bodies" especially linebackers that should help us greatly.

Royal has a strength, confidence, and experience to make things happen on his own. I think he gets 3-4 TD's this year and makes other teams "game plan" for him in particular. Just 6-8 yards better field position would be huge for this team.

Man, 6-8 TDs. That is beyond my hopes.

I am just hoping for the offense to get the ball and not have to drive it 75-90 yards every possession.

Cugel
05-08-2008, 10:47 AM
It the lack of quality depth on the team, especial at LB and WR

That's the answer right there! Since you don't risk your starters getting injured on special teams, the ST play is determined by how good your backups are.

Well, for years now the Broncos backups have been mediocre to downright horrible. The team can barely find quality starters, and isn't very deep. (Remember Shanahan actually using Champ Bailey on STs last year in desperation? And on several player Bailey actually made the TD saving tackle!)

This is a result, once again, of poor drafting, followed by Shanahan waking up and finding "whoa! I have total C-rap on my D-line! I'd better find some FAs quick!"

Then he goes out and finds some FA starters and pays them the Moon. Behind them on the depth chart are a couple of scrubs. Said scrubs get blown up on return coverage and guys like Hester run for 14 TDs a game (number uncertain, probably only seemed like that many).

The special teams improved a tiny bit last year because the 2006 draft was better than in years past. So, there were a few more 1/2 way decent players to put on STs.

Denver has proved that having a great Special Teams coach does nothing if you have a bunch of slow 98 lbs. weaklings out there trying to block. :coffee:

This year should be better coverage and better in the return game. But, it will all depend on Denver having quality players to put on ST in the first place.

Ziggy
05-08-2008, 10:52 AM
Have any of you watched Royal return punts? Any video by chance?
I know that he is a solid returner, i just havent seen any video myself.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rloo1rd4Bl4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o5V6AG_eoN0

Cugel
05-08-2008, 10:56 AM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rloo1rd4Bl4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o5V6AG_eoN0

Smarter football minds than mine must evaluate those videos. How do they tell whether it's just poor blocking by the defense or good blocking by the OL creating a gap, followed by the fact that the returner is just faster than the other college players on the field -- which he certainly won't be in the NFL where EVERYBODY is fast or they don't last?

MOtorboat
05-08-2008, 11:02 AM
Smarter football minds than mine must evaluate those videos. How do they tell whether it's just poor blocking by the defense or good blocking by the OL creating a gap, followed by the fact that the returner is just faster than the other college players on the field -- which he certainly won't be in the NFL where EVERYBODY is fast or they don't last?

I hope they've got full game tapes...:coffee:

cmhargrove
05-08-2008, 11:06 AM
Man, 6-8 TDs. That is beyond my hopes.

I am just hoping for the offense to get the ball and not have to drive it 75-90 yards every possession.

I would dream of 6-8 TD's. I said I thought 3-4 TD's and 6-8 yards better starting field position (which is actually a huge deal for us).

I think Royal himself could be good for 6-8 TD's this year with ST and receiving combined, but my guess is 3-4 ST TD's. Just a guess, but I think we are going to turn a corner on ST this year.

Buff
05-08-2008, 11:14 AM
I'd like to think that our return game can't possibly get any worse... I'm having flashbacks to the San Diego game at home when we were down 14-0 before we ever got started thanks in part to a botched return...

It seems like Shanny has finally realized that his old philosophy of throwing a bunch of returners against the wall and hoping one sticks is not working. (In his defense, he probably had D-Will penciled in as the returner for the next few years)... So, we're trying again on the 2nd round pick as opposed to pulling guys off the streets-- As I said, it can't possibly get worse this year, can it?

underrated29
05-08-2008, 11:15 AM
man i hope you guys are right. I cant watch the videos yet, but take this into account.

Besides glen martinez TD return last year, when was the last time we had some go all the way?

I dont know, but it seems like it was a good 7-8 years ago.

If we can get 1-2 I will be THIRLLED!!!

And if we can get out to like the 30-40 yard line, hell i will even say the 25. Then we are moving in the right direction....

Still after all this though, it will become moot, if we once agian drive the field like we always do and dont punch it in for the 6 pts.

Thats where we need the most improvement. Then stopping the run. Then ST/returning. (jmo)

cmhargrove
05-08-2008, 11:16 AM
Smarter football minds than mine must evaluate those videos. How do they tell whether it's just poor blocking by the defense or good blocking by the OL creating a gap, followed by the fact that the returner is just faster than the other college players on the field -- which he certainly won't be in the NFL where EVERYBODY is fast or they don't last?

I think you can see several important things from Royal's "highlight" reels.
1. He is fearless, and returns kicks with very little initial thought (quick decision making).
2. He has excellent vision, and understand how to use his blocks very well. He sets up blocks, then makes his cut to utilize the block effectively.
3. He has a nice top speed, and will us it in traffic.
4. He has great one on one moves to beat an adversary in the open field. That is the hard part to teach. "Dainty" Hall had it, Hester has it, Cribbs has it. They know how to beat someone one on one.
5. Royal is surprisingly strong and breaks lots of tackles. I mean for a guy that is 185, he plays very strong (both upper and lower body).

Contrast that with Hixon who had good straight line speed, but used it very hesitantly. He waited behind blocks until they collapsed, or didn't use them properly. He allowed defenders to catch up with him because of his indecision. I liked Hixon, but Royal will be much better for us.

SOCALORADO.
05-08-2008, 11:37 AM
I think you can see several important things from Royal's "highlight" reels.
1. He is fearless, and returns kicks with very little initial thought (quick decision making).
2. He has excellent vision, and understand how to use his blocks very well. He sets up blocks, then makes his cut to utilize the block effectively.
3. He has a nice top speed, and will us it in traffic.
4. He has great one on one moves to beat an adversary in the open field. That is the hard part to teach. "Dainty" Hall had it, Hester has it, Cribbs has it. They know how to beat someone one on one.
5. Royal is surprisingly strong and breaks lots of tackles. I mean for a guy that is 185, he plays very strong (both upper and lower body).

Contrast that with Hixon who had good straight line speed, but used it very hesitantly. He waited behind blocks until they collapsed, or didn't use them properly. He allowed defenders to catch up with him because of his indecision. I liked Hixon, but Royal will be much better for us.

Nice post.
Thanks for the vids ZIGGY

I see the comaprisons to Steve Smith now. Hes a tough mofo with good speed and is VERY elusive.

cmhargrove
05-08-2008, 11:44 AM
Nice post.
Thanks for the vids ZIGGY

I see the comaprisons to Steve Smith now. Hes a tough mofo with good speed and is VERY elusive.

Remember also that Shanahan and Goodman very very decisive about the Royal pick. They wanted him all along, no mention of Desean. I think they have every intent of making him our #2 wideout in the next year or two. Don't be fooled into believing he was just a PR pick, Shanahan used words like "the best receiver in the draft coming out of the break." They liked him more than Sweed, Kelley, Manningham, Jackson, etc..

They will give him every chance to become the next Steve Smith, but will he?

Kaylore
05-08-2008, 12:07 PM
Remember also that Shanahan and Goodman very very decisive about the Royal pick. They wanted him all along, no mention of Desean. I think they have every intent of making him our #2 wideout in the next year or two. Don't be fooled into believing he was just a PR pick, Shanahan used words like "the best receiver in the draft coming out of the break." They liked him more than Sweed, Kelley, Manningham, Jackson, etc..

This is true. Shanahan said in all his years of coaching this was the first draft his first choices for round one and round two were both available when they picked.

topscribe
05-08-2008, 12:41 PM
I would dream of 6-8 TD's. I said I thought 3-4 TD's and 6-8 yards better starting field position (which is actually a huge deal for us).

I think Royal himself could be good for 6-8 TD's this year with ST and receiving combined, but my guess is 3-4 ST TD's. Just a guess, but I think we are going to turn a corner on ST this year.

Look out for Fast Eddie Royal!! :dance:

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elsid13
05-08-2008, 04:28 PM
Have any of you watched Royal return punts? Any video by chance?
I know that he is a solid returner, i just havent seen any video myself.

I have seen him do it live, Beamer (HC at VATECH) personal teachs the ST and has starters play. He(Royal) doesn't dance like DeSean Jackson does, he pick his lane and attacks it aggressively.

underrated29
05-08-2008, 04:56 PM
Wow, ok I was just able to now view those highlights. I Like.......

before i was excited about the pick but wasnt too sure he would ever make it more than a #3 WR. He changed that. Let me explain my views.

He has really good vision. He also seems to be able to track the ball well and come down with some tough in traffic catches. Obviously his speed, but more so is how he uses it. Someone said Wes Welker, and I agree! He doesnt use his speed like barry sanders would. Juke, deke, start stop and accelerate 0 to 100 in .03.

He accelerates while he is dekeing/juking. That right there is HUGE!!! It is so hard to defend against a player who can change directions while accelerating or keeping their feet moving. It throws the defense off so much, at any time you can go in, out or up and you look the same the hole time. IF the d man bites one direction you can go the other or deep and own him.

This guy will break some legs simply by cutting. VERY EXCITING!

Problems i see. I havent seen a great display of strength, for a guy his size im sure its good, but that needs work. Also for the most part he has had a lot of lanes and holes to run through, not gonna happen as much here in the NFL, so i do expect a learning curve that might hit him a little harder than normal. I also think once he gets it, that its over, and probably wont take him too long to get over that hump. I will say 7 games for this guy.

lastly he likes to go outside a lot. Obvioulsy on his runs thats where the lanes and fewest lanes were, but rounding the corner wont be as easy for him.

I dont know his time or size/strenght- I think he is somehting like 5'9 180. I would like to see him at about 190 if he can keep his speed.

His moves remind me of Wes welker as i said (in open field and KO/PR), but as a WR he actually reminded my of Lee Evans! I would love to see that. But needs more strength to hopefully get near his status.

The way he runs tracks the ball, fights off defenders and can burn it even through some press coverage- Looks like a little Lee to me.

Lonestar
05-09-2008, 01:53 AM
I have seen him do it live, Beamer (HC at VATECH) personal teachs the ST and has starters play. He(Royal) doesn't dance like DeSean Jackson does, he pick his lane and attacks it aggressively.

Many teams have starters on ST.

NE considers the KR/PR as the first play of the offensive set and the same goes for the punt or KO, which they consider it the last play on defense.

When you look at it in that context the best players on the team should be on ST's. Not just third/fourth string fodder..

Divinelegion
05-09-2008, 03:13 AM
A speedy FB with that last pick in the 7th, Josh Barrett, Woodyard, Jack Williams, Eddie Royal, I mean except for Powell and Lichtensteiger we added alot of potential to our special teams unit. I mean some of these guys are going to get chances to start but all of them have huge potential to make imediate impacts on special teams. I can almost guerantee that Barrett and Williams will be huge contributers early on coverage with thier speed and insticts. Its looking optomistic, I think if you look at our last couple of drafts youll see we dident go deep in positions that transition well to ST coverage and blocking. Shanny tends to focus more on the O-line in later rounds, but this year we adressed the line early (and last year realy) but our biggest depth needs this season were all transitional positions...Saftey, FB, CB, WR, LB, and RB.

Torians best shot to see the field early is pull a TD, if Barrett wants to strut his stuff and mentor under Lynch he should pop someone in the mouth on ST. If Jack Williams wants to showcase his speed and insticts he can do it on a return or streaking down the field as a flanker. This is a healthy draft class to bolster the St...I like the way this is going.

Northman
05-09-2008, 04:20 AM
I dont know, ask Devin Hester and the Bears. At this point, i would settle for the Broncos to start on the Denver 40 rather than the 20 or 10 yd line all the time. Royal will be a difference maker.

elsid13
05-09-2008, 04:50 AM
Many teams have starters on ST.

NE considers the KR/PR as the first play of the offensive set and the same goes for the punt or KO, which they consider it the last play on defense.

When you look at it in that context the best players on the team should be on ST's. Not just third/fourth string fodder..

It usually doesn't work that way in college where the greater player depth allows you to protect your starters.

broncosfanscott
05-09-2008, 01:16 PM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rloo1rd4Bl4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o5V6AG_eoN0

Nice videos. Man the guy can move. Just looking at the videos I can see he will be very interesting to watch after the catch. :D


Besides glen martinez TD return last year, when was the last time we had some go all the way?

I dont know, but it seems like it was a good 7-8 years ago.



It probably has been that long because I can't even recall anything. I do remember one that was called back because of too many men on the field.

Kaylore
05-09-2008, 01:20 PM
I dont know, ask Devin Hester and the Bears. At this point, i would settle for the Broncos to start on the Denver 40 rather than the 20 or 10 yd line all the time. Royal will be a difference maker.

Exactly. If the special teams is decent then I'm satisfied. Anything else will be gravy.

TheReverend
05-09-2008, 02:26 PM
Exactly. If the special teams is decent then I'm satisfied. Anything else will be gravy.

Starting at the 40 every drive is beyond decent...

Ziggy
05-09-2008, 02:32 PM
Starting at the 40 every drive is beyond decent...

I'd have to agree, since the best average starting field position in the NFL last year was the 34.43 yard line by the Bears.

TheReverend
05-09-2008, 02:33 PM
I'd have to agree, since the best average starting field position in the NFL last year was the 34.43 yard line by the Bears.

I'd settle with not starting 90% of the drives inside the 10... that's marked improvement.

Lonestar
05-09-2008, 02:55 PM
I'd settle with not starting 90% of the drives inside the 10... that's marked improvement.

If your talking about punt returns even the greatest PR will get you few yards if he is surrounded by defenders as he gets the ball.. Or if the Punters we face are skilled enough o pooch into the redzone.

On KOs that is another story..

Bronco Yoda
05-11-2008, 12:16 AM
I DO believe a very talented return specialist CAN make a huge difference all by himself in the return game. We once had our very own human joy stick a long time ago named Rick Upchurch.... and he made our special teams special.

A truly gifted returner is like a fine jazz musician.... improvisation with smooth execution is the key. It's a gift that can be honed but not fully created IMO.


Only the the return man is catching the ball or deciding to let it go under all that pressure. He's the one picking the lanes and the one responsible for keeping the rock safe. Not the coaches or blockers on the field.

A Returner has to have full confidence, a little swagger and be fearless to be a top return guy. Once that ball is kicked it's mostly on him. Anyone who's ever done this whether in High School, college or the pros will tell you regardless of your blockers.... you're on a one man island with 11 hurricanes locked on you and only you.

Sure good blocking will increase his chances greatly over bad blocking every time but in the end it's up to the returners nerve to catch the ball.....decisive and aggressive attitude and skill to physically make the moves, vision to choose the best lane and then finally that special intangible that cant even be fully explained let alone coached and blocked into creation.

Remember the chiefs 'X' factor. They didn't coach that nor blocked that (unless you count all the clipping going on). Heck, the blockers didn't even know where he was going most of the time either. Sorta like Hester s.



A bad return guy will single handedly sink you
an average return guy will do little for you
a good return guy will usually make a difference
a great return guy will change the game single handedly

slim
05-11-2008, 12:25 AM
Now i didnt watch a lot of the giants games last year, but I keep hearing how well hixon did with the giants..

He returned 1 for a td. Just like Glen freaking martinez. Now dom might have had a bunch of other good runs, but i dont remember seeing anything in the few Gmen games i saw.

Yeah he won a superbowl, but that was more him getting picked up by the right team.

So please correct me if i am wrong, but i dont think hixon is very good, nor did the change of scenery help him anymore than it would had glen martinez gone there instead.

You sir, are correct. Hixon had one big return in NY and that was about it. I am looking forward to seeing Royal out there. I really like this pick.

LoyalSoldier
05-11-2008, 01:45 AM
One thing we shouldn't forget is the Bears had a rather good Special teams unit prior to Hester's arrival. It was just when they put in someone as good as Hester their special teams exploded.

Ziggy
05-11-2008, 07:48 AM
One thing we shouldn't forget is the Bears had a rather good Special teams unit prior to Hester's arrival. It was just when they put in someone as good as Hester their special teams exploded.

As I said in the beginning of this thread....In 2005, the Bears were 29th in KO returns and tied for 9th in punt returns. After drafting Hester in 2006 they were 9th in KO returns and 2nd in punt returns.

I wouldn't call being 29th in KO returns and 9th in punt returns being rather good. Hester made them special, but they were well below average over all prior to him getting there.

TheReverend
05-11-2008, 10:45 AM
If your talking about punt returns even the greatest PR will get you few yards if he is surrounded by defenders as he gets the ball.. Or if the Punters we face are skilled enough o pooch into the redzone.

On KOs that is another story..

If Royal is surrounded by defenders and he's not waving his arm in the air like a madman, then he needs to be cut. It's just stupid to take it in that situation.

Den21vsBal19
05-11-2008, 11:14 AM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rloo1rd4Bl4

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o5V6AG_eoN0

Thanks for the vids :salute:

He certainly looks a very good prospect, a nice blend of speed, moves, power and hands.........

Especially like the way he can take the ball, either recieving or returning, in traffic and break tackels from the first step :rockon:

Judging from that, I think he can really open up the deep game in multiple reciever sets, with both him and Marshall able to gain extra yardage where there isn't any, the safeties are going to have to be keeping more than half an eye on them, on the assumption that they will break the first tackle, hopefully bringing them up slightly and opening the deep routes

Drill-N-Fill
05-11-2008, 11:34 AM
As I said in the beginning of this thread....In 2005, the Bears were 29th in KO returns and tied for 9th in punt returns. After drafting Hester in 2006 they were 9th in KO returns and 2nd in punt returns.

I wouldn't call being 29th in KO returns and 9th in punt returns being rather good. Hester made them special, but they were well below average over all prior to him getting there.

It is kind of exciting when they have 6 people back there to block on PUNT RETURNS. I'm suprised no1 has tried a fake yet.

LoyalSoldier
05-11-2008, 12:50 PM
As I said in the beginning of this thread....In 2005, the Bears were 29th in KO returns and tied for 9th in punt returns. After drafting Hester in 2006 they were 9th in KO returns and 2nd in punt returns.

I wouldn't call being 29th in KO returns and 9th in punt returns being rather good. Hester made them special, but they were well below average over all prior to him getting there.

Yes, but if you actually look at it Hester didn't start becoming the regular return man till later in the season. He wasn't even the top returner in terms of KO yards his first season. He returned punts, but his average in the first few games was horrible save the return at Green Bay. So even with his break out he didn't put up those stats all alone for Kick offs. The other returner was doing a nice job(Avg of 23.5 YPA), but like I said their special teams exploded when Hester got going.

You also fail to mention that this year the Bears were dead last in KO return average.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=F626E0866EB20E4AA6F8C4892 D437BEF?offensiveStatisticCategory=KICK_RETURNS&archive=false&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=KICK_RETURNS_AVERAGE_YARDS&d-447263-n=1&season=2007&qualified=true&Submit=Find&tabSeq=2&role=TM&d-447263-p=1

So by the same stats I guess the Bears were horrible on special teams this year.

Acedude
05-11-2008, 07:02 PM
Whoo, boy, Denver's ST's have been a laugh. That was the main thing that kept Denver from being elite in the years 2003-2005, IMO. Denver f'd up real bad by not acquiring Wes Welker last year. I was supremely pissed off they didn't acquire that guy. That guy has player written all over him.

We'll see how Denver tries to attack on ST's this year. I'm skeptical they'll be good because Shanahan is loathe to use starters on ST's. He hates to use his starters on ST's, but using your starters on ST's many times is the difference between winning and losing. Urlacher plays ST's a lot makes lots of tackles, intimadates teams. NE didn't win all those SB's by just cheating, they many times fielded most of their starting D on ST's. Same with Indy, they're not just O.

BroncoJoe
05-11-2008, 07:05 PM
Yes, a good return man can make a difference in special teams. No one "feared" the Bears before Hester as opposed to after his arrival.

Dean
05-11-2008, 07:30 PM
It has been my experience over the last thirty plus years that when the blockers believe it is going to make a difference they do their job much better, A belief in the talent of the man with the ball can do wonders for blocking in front of him.

Special teams is a thankless job that is often painful and always tiring. At the end of the game your contribution is seldom noticed. It helps to have an extra incentive that what you do may likely have a bearing on the outcome of the game. Other players recognize the block that sets up a big gain and the man making that block can walk a little taller and feel more an important part of the team. To expend the effort time and again and not have a person with the talent to make use of the block eats at your mind.

I am glad that we have multiple options for return men in camp this year. It is my belief that it will pay off handsomely.

topscribe
05-11-2008, 07:33 PM
It has been my experience over the last thirty plus years that when the blockers believe it is going to make a difference they do their job much better, A belief in the talent of the man with the ball can do wonders for blocking in front of him.

Special teams is a thankless job that is often painful and always tiring. At the end of the game your contribution is seldom noticed. It helps to have an extra incentive that what you do may likely have a bearing on the outcome of the game. Other players recognize the block that sets up a big gain and the man making that block can walk a little taller and feel more an important part of the team. To expend the effort time and again and not have a person with the talent to make use of the block eats at your mind.

I am glad that we have multiple options for return men in camp this year. It is my belief that it will pay off handsomely.

It's called swagger!

Fast Eddie Royal will give them swagger! :dance:

-----

TXBRONC
05-11-2008, 07:38 PM
It has been my experience over the last thirty plus years that when the blockers believe it is going to make a difference they do their job much better, A belief in the talent of the man with the ball can do wonders for blocking in front of him.

Special teams is a thankless job that is often painful and always tiring. At the end of the game your contribution is seldom noticed. It helps to have an extra incentive that what you do may likely have a bearing on the outcome of the game. Other players recognize the block that sets up a big gain and the man making that block can walk a little taller and feel more an important part of the team. To expend the effort time and again and not have a person with the talent to make use of the block eats at your mind.

I am glad that we have multiple options for return men in camp this year. It is my belief that it will pay off handsomely.

I sure hope it pans out that way for us coach. Thanks for your insight on Special Teams. :salute:

Lonestar
05-11-2008, 10:29 PM
Whoo, boy, Denver's ST's have been a laugh. That was the main thing that kept Denver from being elite in the years 2003-2005, IMO. Denver f'd up real bad by not acquiring Wes Welker last year. I was supremely pissed off they didn't acquire that guy. That guy has player written all over him.

We'll see how Denver tries to attack on ST's this year. I'm skeptical they'll be good because Shanahan is loathe to use starters on ST's. He hates to use his starters on ST's, but using your starters on ST's many times is the difference between winning and losing. Urlacher plays ST's a lot makes lots of tackles, intimadates teams. NE didn't win all those SB's by just cheating, they many times fielded most of their starting D on ST's. Same with Indy, they're not just O.

heard belicheat say once replying to someone asking about playing starters on ST's
I believe the punt or kickoffs are the first play on defense and receiving any kick is the first play on offense.. Because that is what I believe, why do you not have your best players on the field..

TXBRONC
05-11-2008, 10:54 PM
Whoo, boy, Denver's ST's have been a laugh. That was the main thing that kept Denver from being elite in the years 2003-2005, IMO. Denver f'd up real bad by not acquiring Wes Welker last year. I was supremely pissed off they didn't acquire that guy. That guy has player written all over him.

We'll see how Denver tries to attack on ST's this year. I'm skeptical they'll be good because Shanahan is loathe to use starters on ST's. He hates to use his starters on ST's, but using your starters on ST's many times is the difference between winning and losing. Urlacher plays ST's a lot makes lots of tackles, intimadates teams. NE didn't win all those SB's by just cheating, they many times fielded most of their starting D on ST's. Same with Indy, they're not just O.

That's not true at all. The year before Ian Gold left Denver to play for Tampa Bay he blew out his knee playing special teams. Darrent Williams not only started in the secondary he was also our PR. Last season Champ Bailey and few other starter played on Special Teams.

Bronco Yoda
05-12-2008, 02:34 PM
I'm a big believer in starters playing special teams. I'm just a big believer that Special Teams can and usually is the difference in a good team and a great team. The teams mindset should be that it's a badge of honor not just some place that bench warmers go to earn their paychecks. I always have a respect for teams that play hard ST's.

Nothing wrong with sprinkling in your top stars here and there to solidify the units. What better way to energize the rooks and emphasize just how important ST is than watching valued starters doing the dirty work too. Yes, injuries can happen but thats just part of the game.

Probably another reason I've always preferred the 3-4 defense as your base defense and physical FB's in the run game. This also bulks up your special teams blocking and wedge busting capabilities. Sort of a two-fer.

Sassy
05-12-2008, 05:42 PM
That's not true at all. The year before Ian Gold left Denver to play for Tampa Bay he blew out his knee playing special teams. Darrent Williams not only started in the secondary he was also our PR. Last season Champ Bailey and few other starter played on Special Teams.

Rod Smith.

TXBRONC
05-12-2008, 05:45 PM
Rod Smith.


Thank you, I don't know how I could over look the fact that Rod not only started at wide receiver but on occasion was also our punt returner.

Sassy
05-12-2008, 05:48 PM
Thank you, I don't know how I could over look the fact that Rod not only started at wide receiver but on occasion was also our punt returner.

Quite a few fans threw hissy fits over it too...they didn't want to see him get injured...

TXBRONC
05-12-2008, 05:49 PM
Quite a few fans threw hissy fits over it too...they didn't want to see him get injured...

I'm not real big on having starters play Special Teams, but if they are needed too you do what you got to do.

Beantown Bronco
05-16-2008, 02:53 PM
People keep bagging on the Broncos special teams last season, but in doing so, they are making a mistake. There are multiple sides to special teams and you can't make one blanket statement and apply it to all sides without looking at each of them individually.

They were middle of the pack in terms of returning kicks last season.

Best team was Cleveland, averaging 27 yards per return
Worst was Chicago, averaging 18 yards per return
Denver was in the middle, averaging 22 yards per return

Punt Returns? Same thing.

Best was Buffalo's Roscoe Parrish averaging 16.3 yards per return.
Worst was Adam Jennings of Atlanta averaging 6.2.
Again, Denver was average, with Glenn Martinez averaging 11.2 yds per return.

So to answer the original question posed here. Can a returner alone make a unit "special"? My answer is no, with one or two obvious exceptions. Considering the Broncos were smack dab in the middle of both return categories last year, I'd say it's highly unlikely a returner alone can make a really big difference. Even if they go to #1 in both categories, you are looking at a whole 5 yards of difference in field position. Sure, it's something, but it's really not a world of difference.....and probably not even possible in Denver considering half of their games are played at altitude, where returners get less opportunities to return kicks and punts.

The only area the Broncos can noticeably improve in on special teams is when they are the ones doing the kicking, not the returning. A strong kickoff leg that regularly forces touchbacks would be huge. And a punter that can pin guys inside the 20 would certainly not hurt.....hell, even if he can't pin it in the 20, I wouldn't care. Just so long as he booted it through the EZ every time and forced the opposition to start off at the 20, it would be an improvement over what they've been dealing with the last few years. I'm sick of seeing big returns given up left and right and the opposition constantly starting drives outside their own 30. No more.

LoyalSoldier
05-16-2008, 05:58 PM
Rod Smith.

Yep I remember when he was penalized in the superbowl for an illegal fair catch. A call that I am still mad at. Oh well just glad we won that.

Sassy
05-16-2008, 07:17 PM
Yep I remember when he was penalized in the superbowl for an illegal fair catch. A call that I am still mad at. Oh well just glad we won that.

That was a perfectly legal catch! They were just a little "picky" on that.

Watchthemiddle
05-16-2008, 07:23 PM
D Will made our punt return game special. He was electric everytime he had his hands on the ball.

I look forward to that same feel this season.

Nickademus
05-19-2008, 12:57 AM
Wow, ok I was just able to now view those highlights. I Like.......

before i was excited about the pick but wasnt too sure he would ever make it more than a #3 WR. He changed that. Let me explain my views.

He has really good vision. He also seems to be able to track the ball well and come down with some tough in traffic catches. Obviously his speed, but more so is how he uses it. Someone said Wes Welker, and I agree! He doesnt use his speed like barry sanders would. Juke, deke, start stop and accelerate 0 to 100 in .03.

He accelerates while he is dekeing/juking. That right there is HUGE!!! It is so hard to defend against a player who can change directions while accelerating or keeping their feet moving. It throws the defense off so much, at any time you can go in, out or up and you look the same the hole time. IF the d man bites one direction you can go the other or deep and own him.

This guy will break some legs simply by cutting. VERY EXCITING!

Problems i see. I havent seen a great display of strength, for a guy his size im sure its good, but that needs work. Also for the most part he has had a lot of lanes and holes to run through, not gonna happen as much here in the NFL, so i do expect a learning curve that might hit him a little harder than normal. I also think once he gets it, that its over, and probably wont take him too long to get over that hump. I will say 7 games for this guy.

lastly he likes to go outside a lot. Obvioulsy on his runs thats where the lanes and fewest lanes were, but rounding the corner wont be as easy for him.

I dont know his time or size/strenght- I think he is somehting like 5'9 180. I would like to see him at about 190 if he can keep his speed.

His moves remind me of Wes welker as i said (in open field and KO/PR), but as a WR he actually reminded my of Lee Evans! I would love to see that. But needs more strength to hopefully get near his status.

The way he runs tracks the ball, fights off defenders and can burn it even through some press coverage- Looks like a little Lee to me.

I agree with just about everything here but after watching both of thoes youtube clips I was pretty happy with his preformance after contact, fighting for balls ect.. I know his combine #s were good something like 25 reps @225 so I am not really concerned about his strength. I do agree that he did see alot of lanes and leaned towards the outside but he also looked real good in trafic so I am not really concerned about the lack of lanes he might see in the pros. I think his biggest problem will be staying on the field he missed alot of time in his college career so lets hope that real trainers and a good conditioning program keep him healthy.