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Broncospsycho77
05-04-2008, 06:09 PM
Since they say that it's appropriate to grade a draft after at least 3 years of development, let's do that with the 2005 draft for the Broncos.

Round Pick Player Pos School
2 24(56) Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma St.
3 12(76) Karl Paymah CB Wash. St.
3 34(97) Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
3 38(101) Maurice Clarett HB Ohio St.
6 26(200) Chris Myers OG Miami (FL)
7 25(239) Paul Ernster PK N. Arizona

Obviously, there are some players that we cannot assess due to unfortunate circumstances (:salute: DWill), but how does our draft work out 3 years later?

NameUsedBefore
05-04-2008, 06:22 PM
Bad. Darrent Williams was a bright spot, but sadly someone turned that light out too early. Karl Paymah and Foxworth are nice niche players (although I think Paymah has a lot of potential still); Clarett was an embarrassment. Myers is now in Texas and we basically got the pick back. Ernster was a practice stud, and a gametime dud.

topscribe
05-04-2008, 06:32 PM
D-Will was a budding star.

Foxy could start for some other teams. Paymah is a valuable depth player still
with upside. Both are important cogs on the defense today.

Meyers was a starter last year here, and he reportedly will still be a starter
in Houston. The Broncos all but gave him a way, but that is not a draft
issue; it is a trade issue. It was a dynamite pick for a 6th rounder.

Ernster was a 7th round pick. If a 7th rounder doesn't make it, meh.

The draft would have been a B+, IMO, but Clarett drags it down to a C+,
not just because he was a bust, but because, in selecting him, the Broncos
overlooked several other players who did make it, and because they could
not see obvious red flags.

-----

Skinny
05-04-2008, 06:42 PM
I think it was a very good draft for us. 4 out of 6 is a good draft for anybody. Since we're talking broncos and 3 years after the fact, i give a B-.

Timmy!
05-04-2008, 06:51 PM
B. DWill was going to be a pro bowler. Foxy and Paymah are both still on the team and contribute. Myers is a wash, Clarett was a losing gamble, and Ernster was a 7th round kicker.

Lonestar
05-04-2008, 07:09 PM
Round Pick Player Pos School
2 24(56) Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma St.
3 12(76) Karl Paymah CB Wash. St.
3 34(97) Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
3 38(101) Maurice Clarett HB Ohio St.
6 26(200) Chris Myers OG Miami (FL)
7 25(239) Paul Ernster PK N. Arizona


Darrent was originally picked as a KR which he was really good at..

But the Lenny was released because Darrent took his job from him.. He was no longer used as a returner.. Many were calling for his head at the end of the year and to place foxy in the spot..

B then C

Paymah was supposed to be the best of the CB's drafted that year still has not developed plays dime back.. Although they like his potential Still was allowed to shop his wares via RFA was given a 3rd rounder price.. NO ONE nibbled to my knowledge..

C moved to a D

Foxworth was ballyhooed as Darrent replacement as a starter but after Darrents murdered they acquired Bly another midget CB.. played some safety without kudos, a decent nickle allowed to RFA 3rd rounder no nibbles either.

C to D

Clarette

signed an incentive laden contract bombed during TC.

A to F

Meyers

A late round typical OLINE draft choice by mikey. Started a s a n emergency filler after massive injuries on the OLINE last year.. Would not have earned the spot legitimately. Allowed to RFA was given to HOU for a 6th rounder.

C to B

Ernster

took Todd's spot gave it back

C to F

started out as a C+ went to a D-

UnderArmour
05-04-2008, 07:28 PM
Round Pick Player Pos School
2 24(56) Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma St.
3 12(76) Karl Paymah CB Wash. St.
3 34(97) Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
3 38(101) Maurice Clarett HB Ohio St.
6 26(200) Chris Myers OG Miami (FL)
7 25(239) Paul Ernster PK N. Arizona


Paymah was supposed to be the best of the CB's drafted that year still has not developed plays dime back.. Although they like his potential Still was allowed to shop his wares via RFA was given a 7th round price.. NO ONE nibbled to my knowledge..
Paymah was tendered as a 3rd rounder.


Foxworth was ballyhooed as Darrent replacement as a starter but after Darrents murdered they acquired Bly another midget CB.. played some safety without kudos, a decent nickle allowed to RFA 7th rounder no nibbles either.
Foxworth was also a 3rd round tender, not 7th. We weren't about to leave Bailey and Bly as our only two corners for some 7th rounders.


Meyers

A late round typical OLINE draft choice by mikey. Started a s a n emergency filler after massive injuries on the OLINE last year.. Would not have earned the spot legitimately. Allowed to RFA was given to HOU for a 7th
Actually, it was a 6th.



A few inaccuracies, worth correcting.

Simple Jaded
05-04-2008, 07:29 PM
Getting Paymah in the 3rd round is turning out to be a solid pick, especially if Denver is able to sign him long term to be the NB.

Foxworth I am not as high on as many, many others, I think he's weak and he plays scared. The fact that he's a well-spoken good-guy means nothing, he wasn't that good at CB to begin with and the Broncos didn't do him any favors by moving him back and forth between Safety and Corner. He's going to continue to be the Nickle Back, imo, for whatever team he signs longterm with, cause he will be gone this time next year and the Broncos will be replacing him in the 09 draft. What else is new?

Darrent Williams, rest his soul, may have been heading for the Nickle job, imo, but he was also a damn good punt returner when the return team actually got in somebodies way, as well as an enormous locker room presence. He was also a very solid pick.

Chris Myers is the prototypical Denver Broncos offensive lineman......Quick and Mobile, but by no means the "Athlete" everybody insists them to be. The Broncos were able to parlay his rights into drafting Spencer Larson......Wow! Had the Texans not over-paid him, his remaining with the Broncos probably would have meant the Broncos do not waste a 4th rounder on an injured Licthenstieger.

The fact that there are still two players with the team (For now, anyway), along with the fact that this drafts No1 pick was parlayed into the drafting of Jay Cutler, keeps this grade from dropping to normal Denver Broncos standards.

Williams, Paymah and Cutler make it a C+......

underrated29
05-04-2008, 08:20 PM
I think it was a b+

I dont know why people wanted dwills head. Manning and the colts have always torched us, and with no qb pressure it was obvious they would throw at him instead of champ.

dwil-B+
paymah B- still with the team, for us thats half the battle. And has upside still..

fox- B still with the team, still sees the field, and with starting time i think he can get better

clarrett-C- I loved the pick. Some say well barber was there, the injuries he had. I say so what. It was a comp pick and the guy was a gamer. He would run that ball like a mother. Thing is, in TC he got hurt, and then was a chump in the LR and they cut him before he even took 1 snap. A risk worth taking when we had MA and Bell?? I think still on hand.

Meyers-B - our kind of guy, Never reached max potential so we got good work out of him and then send him off for the same pick.

Ernster- C+- didnt like that he kicked in high altitude, but a 7th rd punter- BFD.

I think it was a great draft- and had some unfortunate things not happened it would be looked at the start of the new beginning for us.

BroncoWave
05-04-2008, 08:50 PM
I hated that draft then and I'm still not too fond of it. The best we got was a middle-of-the road CB in Foxy. And honestly, I didn't see the potential in Darrent that some of you did. He was a nice player but I didn't see Pro Bowl written on him.

topscribe
05-04-2008, 09:18 PM
I dont know why people wanted dwills head.

It apparently because they do not understand it takes three years for a
corner to reach his upside. D-Will got beat once in a while: What in the world
did they expect?

A lot of people were calling for Elway's head in his second year, too. Some
people just expect a Hall of Famer the minute a rookie steps on the field.

Just watch people yell "bust" this year when Clady gets beaten. Forget he's
a rookie. He will be garbage in the eyes of some.

-----

HolyDiver
05-04-2008, 09:21 PM
We've drafted well, for the picks that we had, for the past 4 years.........

Look at the starters and the valueable backups we've gotten.

Foxworth.......Can play both CB and Safety.......He's our Dimeback
Paymah...........Nickel
Cutler.........starter
Sheffler.........Alot of playing time
Marshall............Starter
Dumervil............Starter
Kuper.........Starter
Moss...........Should get alot of playing time
Crowder...........I think he'll start
Thomas...........Starter
Harris..........Should start at RT
Clady..........Should start at LT
Royal.........Could start and also be a factor on punt returns
Lichtensteiger.........Should be a nice backup, for now
Williams........Has alot of potential and should be our Dime when Foxworth leaves
Toran..........Could really surprise alot of people
Powell..........Should see alot of playing time
Larsen...........Should be a good backup and important on special teams
Barrett..........Potential starter, should contribute on specail teams
Hillis.......Could start, but atleast should be a good backup


So, 20 players in four years, that make up ALMOST half of the roster..................Guess we have a nice young team in the making. I think we've drafted pretty well overall.

slim
05-04-2008, 09:34 PM
It was a solid draft (considering we didn't have a first round pick). Six picks and 3 or 4 quality NFL players. Williams and Myers both started in the league and Foxy probably could be a starter.

TXBRONC
05-04-2008, 11:23 PM
A few inaccuracies, worth correcting.

Thanks for making those corrections UA. :beer:

Lonestar
05-04-2008, 11:39 PM
We've drafted well, for the picks that we had, for the past 4 years.........

Look at the starters and the valueable backups we've gotten.

Foxworth.......Can play both CB and Safety.......He's our Dimeback
Paymah...........Nickel
Cutler.........starter
Sheffler.........Alot of playing time
Marshall............Starter
Dumervil............Starter
Kuper.........Starter
Moss...........Should get alot of playing time
Crowder...........I think he'll start
Thomas...........Starter
Harris..........Should start at RT
Clady..........Should start at LT
Royal.........Could start and also be a factor on punt returns
Lichtensteiger.........Should be a nice backup, for now
Williams........Has alot of potential and should be our Dime when Foxworth leaves
Toran..........Could really surprise alot of people
Powell..........Should see alot of playing time
Larsen...........Should be a good backup and important on special teams
Barrett..........Potential starter, should contribute on specail teams
Hillis.......Could start, but atleast should be a good backup




So, 20 players in four years, that make up ALMOST half of the roster..................Guess we have a nice young team in the making. I think we've drafted pretty well overall.

There are alot of shoulds and coulds on this list..

Just curious how many of this group of starters would start say on NE, Indy, JAX or SAN teams.. THOSE are the teams we have to consistently beat to get to the playoffs..


Just because they are OUR starters does not make them a great choices .. Al it means is that our talent pool has been so drained that they are OUR starters..

While many of these players will be our starters only a few WOULD start on those teams..

The brutal truth is mikey has won games with smoke and mirrors the past few years..

It is great to be optimistic but folks it will be 2009 or 10 before all of these kids have the experience to win consistently.. and that friends is the key to championship ball..

joshxhannah
05-04-2008, 11:53 PM
There are alot of shoulds and coulds on this list..

Just curious how many of this group of starters would start say on NE, Indy, JAX or SAN teams.. THOSE are the teams we have to consistently beat to get to the playoffs..


Just because they are OUR starters does not make them a great choices .. Al it means is that our talent pool has been so drained that they are OUR starters..

While many of these players will be our starters only a few WOULD start on those teams..

The brutal truth is mikey has won games with smoke and mirrors the past few years..

It is great to be optimistic but folks it will be 2009 or 10 before all of these kids have the experience to win consistently.. and that friends is the key to championship ball..

Greenbay has the youngest team in the league and they were in the nfc championship game. Young kids can play sometimes when they need to.... Hopefully this year it will be our young kids

Lonestar
05-04-2008, 11:58 PM
Greenbay has the youngest team in the league and they were in the nfc championship game. Young kids can play sometimes when they need to.... Hopefully this year it will be our young kids

um yeah what division are they in .. Which one of them looked and played like either SAN, NE or Indy..

The facts are they were carried to that game on the emotions of Farve..

They will not win consistently for awhile again..

Want to try another example?

Nature Boy
05-05-2008, 02:06 AM
Round Pick Player Pos School
2 24(56) Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma St.
3 12(76) Karl Paymah CB Wash. St.
3 34(97) Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
3 38(101) Maurice Clarett HB Ohio St.
6 26(200) Chris Myers OG Miami (FL)
7 25(239) Paul Ernster PK N. Arizona



Looking at that list, that must be the worst draft ever in it's history. There's only 2 average at best CBs still on the team.

HolyDiver
05-05-2008, 06:49 AM
Looking at that list, that must be the worst draft ever in it's history. There's only 2 average at best CBs still on the team.

I guess you haven't been a Bronco fan for very long. We've had drafts ten times worse than that................Besides, D Williams and Chris Myers were starters........Foxworth is a good backup.

Dean
05-05-2008, 09:53 PM
IMO to correctly evaluate that draft, you can't overlook the #1 pick that we traded. It was instrumental in moving up to get Jay Cuttler. In my book, a draft that gives us what we got from this draft is a pretty good draft.

We got a starting cornerback and a strong return man. Two back-up corners which are essential in today's 4 wideout sets. An offensive lineman that started for us (who if not given the low tender would give us experienced depth/future starter) and it also looks like he will start for Houston. We got his contribution and still ended up getting his draft pick back in the trade. . . something for nothing.

I still believe that Turner wanted Clarrett (it was reported that they had been in constant contact over the 2 years) and Shanahan tossed the best running backs coach in the NFL the comp pick as a bone.

These 3 corners, Myers, and the ability to move up to aquire Cuttler made the Broncos a better team. That's all you can ask for from a draft.

Nature Boy
05-06-2008, 02:34 AM
I guess you haven't been a Bronco fan for very long. We've had drafts ten times worse than that................Besides, D Williams and Chris Myers were starters........Foxworth is a good backup.

Chris Myers started only because the 3 original starters on the O-line got injured. D. Williams started but he sucked, ask Reggie Wayne. Besides, he's no longer on the team, unfortunately. And Foxworth, he just sucks. If he was any good, Denver wouldn't dangle him in free agency for a 3rd rounder and when no one bit, Shanny gave him a bone for 1 year.

The results of the 2006 and 2007 season can also be attributed to the horrendous 2005 draft among other reasons.

And yea, I've only started following closely to the Broncos draft picks 2000 or so, so you can guess my age.

Nature Boy
05-06-2008, 02:49 AM
IMO to correctly evaluate that draft, you can't overlook the #1 pick that we traded. It was instrumental in moving up to get Jay Cuttler. In my book, a draft that gives us what we got from this draft is a pretty good draft.



Jay Cutler was drafted in 2006, I forget how our 2005 1st round pick went to the Skins and how it was all instrumental in landing Jay. Please recap.

Dean
05-06-2008, 07:01 AM
In 2005, the Bronos traded their firt roound pick to Washington hoping to get a great draft pick the following year. The Skins won more games than expected that year making that pick lower than most expected.

Before the draft the Broncos traded down with that pick and then traded down again giving us the flexability to move on draft day. When teams passed on Cutler, we used those picks to move up to pick him at #11.

Nature Boy
05-06-2008, 01:09 PM
Ah, I remember now. The Skins got Carlos Rogers and then our 1st pick for Jason Campbell . Considering we didn't get a 1st rd pick in 2005, it added to how bad that draft class was.

Requiem / The Dagda
05-06-2008, 02:07 PM
Probably in the "C" range, but it'd of been better had Darrent not tragically passed. It's likely that one of Foxworth/Paymah will not be with us next year leaving us with only one of the players we drafted in that class. There was absolutely no excuse for the drafting of Maurice over Barber III.

sanluis
05-06-2008, 03:56 PM
I would not give this draft a very high grade. The death of Dwill ( may he rest in peace) and the waste of a pick on Clarett drag things down IMO. Getting Cutler could improve the out look as I would factor him into this draft.
Ask yourself;
1. Would any of these players start on a top three AFC team?
2. Have any of these players been voted by their peers and coaches to the pro-bowl?
3. What is the probability that any of these players will make this years pro-bowl and why?

As others have pointed out just because they start on Denver's team does not make them a good pick. Production, results are what should be measured and then the opinions of their peers and coaches.

At this point it is all I can do to give this class a C. This is based more on Cutlers potential than anything these players have done. Now if Dwill was still in the mix I would feel better about grading this higher. Dwill being gone is not a knock on this class it is just a fact.

topscribe
05-06-2008, 05:16 PM
I would not give this draft a very high grade. The death of Dwill ( may he rest in peace) and the waste of a pick on Clarett drag things down IMO. Getting Cutler could improve the out look as I would factor him into this draft.
Ask yourself;
1. Would any of these players start on a top three AFC team?
2. Have any of these players been voted by their peers and coaches to the pro-bowl?
3. What is the probability that any of these players will make this years pro-bowl and why?

As others have pointed out just because they start on Denver's team does not make them a good pick. Production, results are what should be measured and then the opinions of their peers and coaches.

At this point it is all I can do to give this class a C. This is based more on Cutlers potential than anything these players have done. Now if Dwill was still in the mix I would feel better about grading this higher. Dwill being gone is not a knock on this class it is just a fact.

The death of a player, two years after being drafted, would drag a draft
grade down? My goodness, Sanluis, you have a funny way of grading.

And what players drafted by any team in the third round and after would be
expected to play for a top three team or be named to the Pro Bowl? There
are those who considered D-Will a future star, and he was the only one
drafted before the third round.

Let's see . . . we have Foxworth and Paymah, who were third-rounders.
Which one is supposed to beat out Champ or Bly? Which one of your
starting CBs would start for the Broncos, for sure? That a player is not
starting over Champ or Bly is certainly not an indictment on that player.

Clarett was a dastardly mistake in the fourth round. I'll give you that.

But then, we have Chis Meyers, a sixth-rounder, who started last year and
who is projected to start for Houston this year. Any sixth-rounder, starting
for any team, merits an "A."

Of course, there is Ernster in the 7th, who finally didn't make it. Meh. Since
when is a 7th-rounder who didn't make it a bust?

In an earlier post, I gave this draft a C+. But now that I have broken it
down in more elaborate terms, I'm going back to a B for the draft.

-----

Lonestar
05-06-2008, 08:41 PM
The death of a player, two years after being drafted, would drag a draft
grade down? My goodness, Sanluis, you have a funny way of grading.

And what players drafted by any team in the third round and after would be
expected to play for a top three team or be named to the Pro Bowl? There
are those who considered D-Will a future star, and he was the only one
drafted before the third round.

Let's see . . . we have Foxworth and Paymah, who were third-rounders.
Which one is supposed to beat out Champ or Bly? Which one of your
starting CBs would start for the Broncos, for sure? That a player is not
starting over Champ or Bly is certainly not an indictment on that player.

Clarett was a dastardly mistake in the fourth round. I'll give you that.

But then, we have Chis Meyers, a sixth-rounder, who started last year and
who is projected to start for Houston this year. Any sixth-rounder, starting
for any team, merits an "A."

Of course, there is Ernster in the 7th, who finally didn't make it. Meh. Since
when is a 7th-rounder who didn't make it a bust?

In an earlier post, I gave this draft a C+. But now that I have broken it
down in more elaborate terms, I'm going back to a B for the draft.

-----

Bet you were not this generous when you taught!

must be the mad cow..

Cugel
05-06-2008, 11:57 PM
There are alot of shoulds and coulds on this list..

Just curious how many of this group of starters would start say on NE, Indy, JAX or SAN teams.. THOSE are the teams we have to consistently beat to get to the playoffs..


Just because they are OUR starters does not make them a great choices .. Al it means is that our talent pool has been so drained that they are OUR starters..

While many of these players will be our starters only a few WOULD start on those teams..

The brutal truth is mikey has won games with smoke and mirrors the past few years..

It is great to be optimistic but folks it will be 2009 or 10 before all of these kids have the experience to win consistently.. and that friends is the key to championship ball..

I think this pretty much sums it up. Of course all the 21 year old homers on the official boards would rip you for saying it. :coffee:

D-Will was drafted as a KR/PR. Ted Sundquist didn't think he could ever be the #2 CB but hoped he would be a great KR/PR and fill in as the nickel back in later years. Turned out to be a better CB than expected and Paymah turned out to be worse.

It's taken Paymah 3 years to develop into a useful backup.

As for Foxworth, the Broncos showed what they thought of him by bringing in Dre Bly and giving him the starting job. I.e. not much. Some other team will probably give him the chance to become the #2 CB for a lot more money than he's getting now and he'll be gone.

I'd expect Paymah to stay, but if he gets significant playing time this year and does well, he could decide to go elsewhere next season too for more money.

As for Clarett, the Broncos could have taken Marion Barber. Enough said.

This was a C- minus draft at best. D-Will was a lucky break, Foxworth and Paymah have made minimal impacts, Clarett was a bust and Ernster was cut before he could develop.

Chris Myers was a solid pick for the 6th round in that he made the team and contributed for a couple of seasons before being traded for a 6th round pick. That's about all you expect from a 6th rounder.

Overall C+

topscribe
05-07-2008, 01:47 AM
I think this pretty much sums it up. Of course all the 21 year old homers on the official boards would rip you for saying it. :coffee:

D-Will was drafted as a KR/PR. Ted Sundquist didn't think he could ever be the #2 CB but hoped he would be a great KR/PR and fill in as the nickel back in later years. Turned out to be a better CB than expected and Paymah turned out to be worse.

It's taken Paymah 3 years to develop into a useful backup.

As for Foxworth, the Broncos showed what they thought of him by bringing in Dre Bly and giving him the starting job. I.e. not much. Some other team will probably give him the chance to become the #2 CB for a lot more money than he's getting now and he'll be gone.

I'd expect Paymah to stay, but if he gets significant playing time this year and does well, he could decide to go elsewhere next season too for more money.

As for Clarett, the Broncos could have taken Marion Barber. Enough said.

This was a C- minus draft at best. D-Will was a lucky break, Foxworth and Paymah have made minimal impacts, Clarett was a bust and Ernster was cut before he could develop.

Chris Myers was a solid pick for the 6th round in that he made the team and contributed for a couple of seasons before being traded for a 6th round pick. That's about all you expect from a 6th rounder.

Overall C+

You're grading the draft down because D-Will is a "lucky break"?

Does that mean you graded them up because Clarett was an unlucky break?

-----

HolyDiver
05-07-2008, 12:04 PM
Chris Myers started only because the 3 original starters on the O-line got injured. D. Williams started but he sucked, ask Reggie Wayne. Besides, he's no longer on the team, unfortunately. And Foxworth, he just sucks. If he was any good, Denver wouldn't dangle him in free agency for a 3rd rounder and when no one bit, Shanny gave him a bone for 1 year.

The results of the 2006 and 2007 season can also be attributed to the horrendous 2005 draft among other reasons.

And yea, I've only started following closely to the Broncos draft picks 2000 or so, so you can guess my age.

12? ................j/k

Cugel
05-07-2008, 12:16 PM
You're grading the draft down because D-Will is a "lucky break"?

Does that mean you graded them up because Clarett was an unlucky break?

-----
I didn't grade the 2005 draft down because D-Will was a lucky break, that's what made it a C+ instead of a D.

If all you get out of a draft are a couple of backup CBs one of whom leaves as soon as his contract is up and the other of whom doesn't look likely to ever be a starter; and to top it off the team has to go out 3 years after you spent your three top draft picks on CBs and draft another one in the 4th round, then I'd say that's not a very successful draft.

It wasn't horrible, just a little above average. You remember when C was actually average before grade-inflation set in and every parent bit ched to high heaven if his little precious didn't receive a "B" grade for doing the coursework?

Same thing here. It was a very slightly better than mediocre draft, coming on top of FOUR straight horrible drafts, so not really sufficient to the need, I'd say. :coffee:

They got Darrent Williams and not much else. So, C+

2006 was certainly a vastly better draft, 2007 looks decent so far, although it's far too early to tell for sure, and 2008 -- we have simply no idea. It looks decent on paper, but that could all change with experience.

You remember how excited everybody was about the drafting of WR Ashley Lelie at the time (I was too). :coffee:

topscribe
05-07-2008, 12:35 PM
I didn't grade the 2005 draft down because D-Will was a lucky break, that's what made it a C+ instead of a D.

If all you get out of a draft are a couple of backup CBs one of whom leaves as soon as his contract is up and the other of whom doesn't look likely to ever be a starter; and to top it off the team has to go out 3 years after you spent your three top draft picks on CBs and draft another one in the 4th round, then I'd say that's not a very successful draft.

It wasn't horrible, just a little above average. You remember when C was actually average before grade-inflation set in and every parent bit ched to high heaven if his little precious didn't receive a "B" grade for doing the coursework?

Same thing here. It was a very slightly better than mediocre draft, coming on top of FOUR straight horrible drafts, so not really sufficient to the need, I'd say. :coffee:

They got Darrent Williams and not much else. So, C+

2006 was certainly a vastly better draft, 2007 looks decent so far, although it's far too early to tell for sure, and 2008 -- we have simply no idea. It looks decent on paper, but that could all change with experience.

You remember how excited everybody was about the drafting of WR Ashley Lelie at the time (I was too). :coffee:

Well, I'll have to disagree . . . considerably. The fact that both Foxworth
and Paymah are serving as valuable cogs in the defense vividly demonstrates
the Broncos got more than D-Will. And, I'm sorry, but two CBs cannot be
three CBs. The selection of Jack Williams is not an indictment on Foxy and
Paymah. Were D-Will still here, the Broncos would have five CBs. The
selection of Williams is because he isn't.

And, while you are musing that the Broncos got little more than D-Will, what
about Myers? A 6th rounder who started for the Broncos and now likely will
be starting for another team? Was that some kind of bust or something?

Third rounders who end up being active producers on the team comprise a
success. A second rounder who starts, as D-Will was doing, is also a
success. A sixth rounder who starts is a steal.

It still looks like a B+ to me, Clarett notwithstanding.

-----

sanluis
05-07-2008, 02:18 PM
The death of a player, two years after being drafted, would drag a draft
grade down? My goodness, Sanluis, you have a funny way of grading.

And what players drafted by any team in the third round and after would be
expected to play for a top three team or be named to the Pro Bowl? There
are those who considered D-Will a future star, and he was the only one
drafted before the third round.

Let's see . . . we have Foxworth and Paymah, who were third-rounders.
Which one is supposed to beat out Champ or Bly? Which one of your
starting CBs would start for the Broncos, for sure? That a player is not
starting over Champ or Bly is certainly not an indictment on that player.

Clarett was a dastardly mistake in the fourth round. I'll give you that.

But then, we have Chis Meyers, a sixth-rounder, who started last year and
who is projected to start for Houston this year. Any sixth-rounder, starting
for any team, merits an "A."

Of course, there is Ernster in the 7th, who finally didn't make it. Meh. Since
when is a 7th-rounder who didn't make it a bust?

In an earlier post, I gave this draft a C+. But now that I have broken it
down in more elaborate terms, I'm going back to a B for the draft.

-----

I am very critical when it comes to grades.

For the team to get credit the player should still be on the team that drafted him when the accomplishments were performed. If the player is no longer on the team that drafted said player then I switch to grading the trade, cap management or FA move. That is why I feel Cutler should be factored into this draft because it's first round pick went into picking Jay (I believe). To this point Jay looks like a good pick... maybe... too soon to say for sure.... but it looks good so far. If Jay does become an all pro I will move the grade of this draft up big time. Time will tell.

Tops you may think I am too hard on this draft and that is fine. It is still a little early to tell really. Corners do take a long time to develop. :salute:

broncosaurus
05-07-2008, 02:25 PM
I give it a C-. At the time I would have given it an F. I thought 3 corners in a row was overkill, and that Clarett was taken 3 rounds too early. I thought it was an utter disaster.

The best move in that draft was trading down and getting the Skins' 1st in '06, which helped us maneuver around and get Cutler and the Javon, and just have a much better overall draft that year.

G_Money
05-07-2008, 02:37 PM
Round Pick Player Pos School

2 24(56) Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma St. - Competent starting CB with some issues. Also, decent return man who was being phased out because he was too valuable as a starter. He was making young-player mistakes, but also good-player plays. There was more good than bad here, lots of upside, and a perfectly reasonable #2 selection. If he was still around Bly would be elsewhere. Pick: B+.

3 12(76) Karl Paymah CB Wash. St. - Struggled early, is a mostly-competent nickel back now and ST player. He was a slow learner and it took him a while to find his groove, but he seems to be playing a competent 5th DB at the moment. Acceptable from a 3rd rounder, even though you'd like more. C- simply due to the overload draft at the position, C on his own.

3 34(97) Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland - Okay, now a lot of people wanted Foxy to start, but he couldn't beat out Darrent nor can he beat Bly. He can't play any sort of competent safety and he was being beat out in nickel packages by Paymah at times. WTH is going on with Foxy? Why is he regressing? Competent backup, but can he actually start? The Broncos obviously don't think so. C- because he just hasn't been able to crack the staring lineup in any significant way and isn't a big ST guy either. A backup we don't use might as well not be a backup. Any schlub can take a paycheck to never see the field.

3 38(101) Maurice Clarett HB Ohio St. - HORRIBLE. It was terrible at the time, it's terrible in hindsight, it was just an atrocious self-justification by Sundquist both before and after the fact. F-

6 26(200) Chris Myers OG Miami (FL) - Decent backup, can spot-start if required, should not be a full-time starter in this league. For the position? B-.

7 25(239) Paul Ernster PK N. Arizona - Gone, but the pick is a 7th and you never know if the kickers are gonna work out. Would have rather picked him up in FA than spent the pick, but it's not a big loss. C-.

Overall: C-. Why? Because only one position was addressed: CB. We drafted 3 guys, got it right on the 1st one and spent the 2nd two picks just making sure, while we had several other needs. If you believe in your scouts, then you shouldn't have to shotgun-draft that way - certainly not for one position. Remember, we already HAD Champ.

And the worst part is that even when that scattershot-drafting strategy would seem to pay off - D-Will's untimely demise creating an opening that needs another CB to be ready and waiting in the wings - it doesn't ACTUALLY pay off.

We're going to ditch at least one of Foxy/Paymah after the season - and possibly both - because keeping both while also having Bly and Champ is silly. We went and GOT Bly because we didn't believe Foxy or Paymah were capable of starting for us full-time. We also just drafted one of their replacements in Jack Williams. Having a draft in which you may have flushed EVERY MEMBER after 4 seasons is terrible. The only reason it's not a lower grade is a) the assumption on my part that we hit on a good starter in D-Will and b) that we didn't have a 1st rounder to get two solid players (since we traded it).

Still, the backup G/C is gone, the PK is gone, the HB is in jail, and we have the two remaining CBs neck and neck for a nickel or 6th back slot. 6 picks with one hit who was tragically lost and maybe one other guy on the team after 4 years is far from stellar.

~G

topscribe
05-07-2008, 02:47 PM
Round Pick Player Pos School

2 24(56) Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma St. - Competent starting CB with some issues. Also, decent return man who was being phased out because he was too valuable as a starter. He was making young-player mistakes, but also good-player plays. There was more good than bad here, lots of upside, and a perfectly reasonable #2 selection. If he was still around Bly would be elsewhere. Pick: B+.

3 12(76) Karl Paymah CB Wash. St. - Struggled early, is a mostly-competent nickel back now and ST player. He was a slow learner and it took him a while to find his groove, but he seems to be playing a competent 5th DB at the moment. Acceptable from a 3rd rounder, even though you'd like more. C- simply due to the overload draft at the position, C on his own.

3 34(97) Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland - Okay, now a lot of people wanted Foxy to start, but he couldn't beat out Darrent nor can he beat Bly. He can't play any sort of competent safety and he was being beat out in nickel packages by Paymah at times. WTH is going on with Foxy? Why is he regressing? Competent backup, but can he actually start? The Broncos obviously don't think so. C- because he just hasn't been able to crack the staring lineup in any significant way and isn't a big ST guy either. A backup we don't use might as well not be a backup. Any schlub can take a paycheck to never see the field.

3 38(101) Maurice Clarett HB Ohio St. - HORRIBLE. It was terrible at the time, it's terrible in hindsight, it was just an atrocious self-justification by Sundquist both before and after the fact. F-

6 26(200) Chris Myers OG Miami (FL) - Decent backup, can spot-start if required, should not be a full-time starter in this league. For the position? B-.

7 25(239) Paul Ernster PK N. Arizona - Gone, but the pick is a 7th and you never know if the kickers are gonna work out. Would have rather picked him up in FA than spent the pick, but it's not a big loss. C-.

Overall: C-. Why? Because only one position was addressed: CB. We drafted 3 guys, got it right on the 1st one and spent the 2nd two picks just making sure, while we had several other needs. If you believe in your scouts, then you shouldn't have to shotgun-draft that way - certainly not for one position. Remember, we already HAD Champ.

And the worst part is that even when that scattershot-drafting strategy would seem to pay off - D-Will's untimely demise creating an opening that needs another CB to be ready and waiting in the wings - it doesn't ACTUALLY pay off.

We're going to ditch at least one of Foxy/Paymah after the season - and possibly both - because keeping both while also having Bly and Champ is silly. We went and GOT Bly because we didn't believe Foxy or Paymah were capable of starting for us full-time. We also just drafted one of their replacements in Jack Williams. Having a draft in which you may have flushed EVERY MEMBER after 4 seasons is terrible. The only reason it's not a lower grade is a) the assumption on my part that we hit on a good starter in D-Will and b) that we didn't have a 1st rounder to get two solid players (since we traded it).

Still, the backup G/C is gone, the PK is gone, the HB is in jail, and we have the two remaining CBs neck and neck for a nickel or 6th back slot. 6 picks with one hit who was tragically lost and maybe one other guy on the team after 4 years is far from stellar.

~G

Only one position was addressed? Then Myers was a cornerback? Whether
or not you believe Myers should or should not have been starting, the fact
is, he started and will continue to start. Why, then, would 6th-round draft
choice who is a starter not be an A? Doesn't make sense to me. :confused:

And why do you think Foxy is regressing? Because he has played out of his
natural position much of the time for the past couple years? What would
you expect? And I don't know how you downgrade third-rounders because
they're not starting, especially over a couple of players who have been to
the Pro Bowl.

I also don't understand why some cannot make sense of Shanny's M.O.,
regarding the "overload" at the position. The fact they are still there,
producing for the team . . . and D-Will would have still been here . . . shows
vividly that the FO knew what it was doing.

Would the term "outside the box" apply here?

-----

Lonestar
05-07-2008, 03:22 PM
Only one position was addressed? Then Myers was a cornerback? Whether
or not you believe Myers should or should not have been starting, the fact
is, he started and will continue to start. Why, then, would 6th-round draft
choice who is a starter not be an A? Doesn't make sense to me. :confused:

And why do you think Foxy is regressing? Because he has played out of his
natural position much of the time for the past couple years? What would
you expect? And I don't know how you downgrade third-rounders because
they're not starting, especially over a couple of players who have been to
the Pro Bowl.

I also don't understand why some cannot make sense of Shanny's M.O.,
regarding the "overload" at the position. The fact they are still there,
producing for the team . . . and D-Will would have still been here . . . shows
vividly that the FO knew what it was doing.

Would the term "outside the box" apply here?

-----

foxy was played at other position because he was not useful at CB IMO.

Some will argue because he was the better athlete. I suspect 3 years from now he will be coaching HS somewhere.. I nice character guy but past that not NFL caliber..

Meyers started IMO only because we had no one else.

We shall see if he does indeed start in HOU and if he does it probably will be more Gibbs doing than he was a superb OL guy.

But then a sixth rounder rarely make the team unless they go to DEN..

IMO mikey has an overload at his position, trying to do everything..

G_Money
05-07-2008, 03:33 PM
Only one position was addressed? Then Myers was a cornerback? Whether
or not you believe Myers should or should not have been starting, the fact
is, he started and will continue to start. Why, then, would 6th-round draft
choice who is a starter not be an A? Doesn't make sense to me. :confused:

And why do you think Foxy is regressing? Because he has played out of his
natural position much of the time for the past couple years? What would
you expect? And I don't know how you downgrade third-rounders because
they're not starting, especially over a couple of players who have been to
the Pro Bowl.

I also don't understand why some cannot make sense of Shanny's M.O.,
regarding the "overload" at the position. The fact they are still there,
producing for the team . . . and D-Will would have still been here . . . shows
vividly that the FO knew what it was doing.

Would the term "outside the box" apply here?

-----

If Myers was an "A" then why isn't he still here? We had every opportunity to retain his services and instead chose to let him go and draft Lichtensteiger. It's not like we lost him as a UFA. We gave him up. Guys we give up on can't really be "A" quality material in my book.

Foxy's regressing because he can only play one position: RCB. He is not as good at the nickel as Paymah, who was TERRIBLE when he first got started but improved. Foxy's had a couple of years to train as the #5 and has not been able to pull it off. He can't play safety, which is not his fault but also means he's not likely to win a tie-breaker with Paymah since KP CAN play the nickel and could spot-start at safety in an emergency without looking foolish. Foxworth hasn't been able to improve his lot on the team since he got here. Maybe that's not regression but when other people are making progress and you're not it sure stands out.

And at Foxy's best position he couldn't stop the Broncos from paying 33 MILLION to get another RCB. Whether that's because the Broncos are stupid for not believing he could do what Bly does for the team for 32 million less dollars is up for debate - but they don't believe he has what it takes and I'll be shocked if he's here after this year, barring some freak injury to Bly or Bailey that requires him to start this year and show whether he's actually capable of it for long stretches.

The FO spent 3 of their picks on one position, and though I think D-Will would still be here as a starter it's entirely possible both Paymah and Foxy are gone next year. If both are, then how does that show that the FO "vividly knows what it's doing?"

Drafting 3 guys for the pass defense and then being woefully unprepared when the DL imploded doesn't sound like vivid knowledge to me.

I downgrade them because the Broncos have. They have no plans to ever start Paymah or Foxworth. They may wind up replacing both, and even spent another draft pick this year to try to do so.

They're not wash-outs - they're still in the league and will likely hang on around the league.

But what are you seriously grading this draft at?

2005:

2- starting RCB, part-time KR/PR, died tragically
3- part-time nickel-back CB
3- backup to part time nickel-back CB
3- RB never made it to game 1, arrested, out of league
6- backup G/C, spot starter, let go
7- PK given chance to start most of one year, let go

How do you grade that?

I mean, compared to an actual GOOD draft like 2006:

1 - Franchise QB of the future (or at least the foreseeable future)
2 - Pass-catching TE, package player and favorite target of QB
4 - #1 WR, 100 catches in 2nd year
4 - Quality DE, Best pass-rusher on team
4- PR and WR, let go, won SB as same with another team
5 - starting OG, possible starting RT this year
6 - C, sent to PS, then lost to another team

2005 draft: 1 starter, 3 backups (one of whom was allowed to be taken by another team). 2 remaining backups may be gone after this year, 1 almost certainly will be.

2006 draft: 5 starters or near-starters, one ST player who may have been cut too soon. All 5 starters likely to be around long-term and re-signed to deals when their rookie contracts expire.

If we're not building with them, then it's not a great draft.

We're building with the '06 draft.

The '05 draft after this season might have just left us with D-Will. That's not enough to deserve a better grade. Not when you see how some teams build through the draft.

~G

topscribe
05-07-2008, 03:35 PM
foxy was played at other position because he was not useful at CB IMO.

Some will argue because he was the better athlete. I suspect 3 years from now he will be coaching HS somewhere.. I nice character guy but past that not NFL caliber..

Meyers started IMO only because we had no one else.

We shall see if he does indeed start in HOU and if he does it probably will be more Gibbs doing than he was a superb OL guy.

But then a sixth rounder rarely make the team unless they go to DEN..

IMO mikey has an overload at his position, trying to do everything..

JR, Foxy was played at safety because of the dearth of quality coverage
safeties. That ought to be obvious because there was indeed a dearth of
quaility coverage safeties. But the fact is, he was an important cog in the
Broncos' defense the last couple years.

And, as I said, it doesn't make any difference why: Myers started. If he
starts for Houston, then he will be a starter. Bottom line. However you look
at it, that's not bad for a 6th rounder, which looks good for the 2005 draft.

Conjecture is conjecture; facts are facts. That Myers started is a fact.
That Foxy played safety instead of Cargile et al. is a fact. As to why is
conjecture. I'm judging by the facts.

-----

topscribe
05-07-2008, 04:05 PM
If Myers was an "A" then why isn't he still here? We had every opportunity to retain his services and instead chose to let him go and draft Lichtensteiger. It's not like we lost him as a UFA. We gave him up. Guys we give up on can't really be "A" quality material in my book.

I guess, then, Berry, Hayward, and Pryce were not quality material? We
let them go, didn't we?


Foxy's regressing because he can only play one position: RCB. He is not as good at the nickel as Paymah, who was TERRIBLE when he first got started but improved. Foxy's had a couple of years to train as the #5 and has not been able to pull it off. He can't play safety, which is not his fault but also means he's not likely to win a tie-breaker with Paymah since KP CAN play the nickel and could spot-start at safety in an emergency without looking foolish. Foxworth hasn't been able to improve his lot on the team since he got here. Maybe that's not regression but when other people are making progress and you're not it sure stands out.If Foxy can't play safety, then why did they have him playing safety? You
are making no sense here. Absolutely, Foxy is a better CB than he is a
safety; CB is his natural position. You are saying Foxy can't play nickel as
well as Paymah because Paymah played nickel last year. Paymah played
nickel last year because Foxy was playing safety. You are downgrading
Foxy because of his versatility.


And at Foxy's best position he couldn't stop the Broncos from paying 33 MILLION to get another RCB. Whether that's because the Broncos are stupid for not believing he could do what Bly does for the team for 32 million less dollars is up for debate - but they don't believe he has what it takes and I'll be shocked if he's here after this year, barring some freak injury to Bly or Bailey that requires him to start this year and show whether he's actually capable of it for long stretches.G, Foxy was a third rounder. Is he a bust because they preferred a Pro
Bowler over a third rounder? For pity's sake, let's judge the pick for what
the pick was. Third round. A third rounder is not expected to start like a
first or second rounder. If he provides quality depth, then that is a
successful pick.


The FO spent 3 of their picks on one position, and though I think D-Will would still be here as a starter it's entirely possible both Paymah and Foxy are gone next year. If both are, then how does that show that the FO "vividly knows what it's doing?"I'm going by now. (See my previous post on conjecture.) If one or both
leaves, then we'll examine under what circumstances and why he left. But
it hasn't happened yet. That's like saying if a player blows out his knee he
isn't going to play for us this year. We need to stay with the facts as they
are today.

And, as I mentioned before, the FO knew exactly what they were doing by
picking three CBs that year. Two of them are still there, and the other
would have been, all producing. I don't know what more you would expect.


Drafting 3 guys for the pass defense and then being woefully unprepared when the DL imploded doesn't sound like vivid knowledge to me.That isn't because of the 2005 draft. That is because of the 2001-2004
drafts and letting quality DTs and DEs go, whom the Broncos already had.
The fact is, the Broncos were woefully deficient in both areas. If they
satisfied one, they had to neglect the other. They had only so many draft
choices to deal with.


I downgrade them because the Broncos have. They have no plans to ever start Paymah or Foxworth. They may wind up replacing both, and even spent another draft pick this year to try to do so.There you go again with your conjecture. They may or may not lose one
or both. Leave that until next year. This year, we don't know. And, as I
alluded, if neither ever starts, they are third-rounders. They can play out
their career as backups and still be counted as successful draft choices out
of the third round.


They're not wash-outs - they're still in the league and will likely hang on around the league.BINGO!! :2thumbs:


But what are you seriously grading this draft at?

2005:

2- starting RCB, part-time KR/PR, died tragically - and would have continued to start - no question
3- part-time nickel-back CB - which makes him a good third-round choice
3- backup to part time nickel-back CB - which makes him a good third-round choice
3- RB never made it to game 1, arrested, out of league - miserable pick :mad:
6- backup G/C, spot starter, let go - Not let go. Traded. Started here, projected to start there. Fantastic 6th rounder at a position where even backup is iffy.
7- PK given chance to start most of one year, let go - so what? 7th round, right?

How do you grade that? Still looks like B+ to me.

I mean, compared to an actual GOOD draft like 2006:

1 - Franchise QB of the future (or at least the foreseeable future)
2 - Pass-catching TE, package player and favorite target of QB
4 - #1 WR, 100 catches in 2nd year
4 - Quality DE, Best pass-rusher on team
4- PR and WR, let go, won SB as same with another team What was that you said? "Guys we give up on can't really be 'A' quality material in my book."
5 - starting OG, possible starting RT this year
6 - C, sent to PS, then lost to another team

An A+ draft in 2006 . . . how does that downgrade the 2005 draft?

2005 draft: 1 starter, 3 backups (one of whom was allowed to be taken by another team). 2 remaining backups may be gone after this year, 1 almost certainly will be.

2006 draft: 5 starters or near-starters, one ST player who may have been cut too soon. All 5 starters likely to be around long-term and re-signed to deals when their rookie contracts expire.

If we're not building with them, then it's not a great draft.
Exactly. And you build with depth. Isn't that what Foxy and Paymah are providing?

We're building with the '06 draft.

The '05 draft after this season might have just left us with D-Will. That's not enough to deserve a better grade. Not when you see how some teams build through the draft.
And there we have more conjecture.

~G

G_Money
05-07-2008, 04:51 PM
I guess, then, Berry, Hayward, and Pryce were not quality material? We let them go, didn't we?

Berry, Hayward and Pryce were all cap casualties. Myers was costing us nothing and we still allowed him to go for VERY little compensation. This wasn't using him as a valuable piece in a deal for another Bly or something. Myers had low value to us. And this is after we drafted his replacement the next year (Eslinger, who didn't work out). We drafted his 2nd attempted replacement this year.

The Broncos didn''t believe in Myers. If they did, we wouldn't have drafted Eslinger and dumped Myers for a pittance. If he was projected to START for us we got ROBBED. He was not projected by anyone in the Broncos FO to start for us again - in fact, with their offseason moves they seemed to be planning to ENSURE he never did.


If Foxy can't play safety, then why did they have him playing safety?

Because they were utterly moronic about playing safety with Lynch and Fergy back there. And did Foxy excel? No, for the most part he was abused. The only reason he wasn't shown up more was because our Run D was so hideous guys didn't HAVE to exploit him to beat us.


G, Foxy was a third rounder. Is he a bust because they preferred a Pro
Bowler over a third rounder? For pity's sake, let's judge the pick for what
the pick was. Third round. A third rounder is not expected to start like a
first or second rounder. If he provides quality depth, then that is a
successful pick.

Except that we have two 4th round starters from the '06 draft, and are hoping for one from this draft.

Just because the fall-back position on a 3rd round pick is "depth" doesn't mean that should be the AIM. It wasn't where we were aiming on draft day 2005 - or at least, not where we should have been aiming.

Foxy and D-Will were both supposed to compete for the starting RCB job. They did, D-Will won, and if D-Will hadn't died we wouldn't have traded for Bly, correct? But with Foxy still on the roster, we did.

So he's JUST depth to the Broncos. An insurance policy that will be dumped as soon as he gets too expensive (ie, next year). Sorry if that's too much conjecture for you, but that does appear to be the situation. He's not starting now, he's never going to start for us barring injury, and the odds of us re-signing him as a UFA are...slim. But let's say we do retain him and he remains depth for as long as he's with us (I know, more of that horrible conjecture).

If you draft a 3rd rounder and he makes the team as depth, how do you grade that?

An A, because that's all he could have reasonably been expected to do as a pitiful 3rd rounder?

A B, because it's really good for that slot compared to other busts?

A C, because that's "par" for the course? No worse than could be expected, but no better either?

I give a 6th round part-time starter a B+ grade. I give a 6th round full-time starter an A grade. I give a 6th round backup a B. A pair of 3rd round backups? Cs. You don't have to like my Cs, but I DO consider that a par grade. If you can't get depth out of what were first day picks, then those picks get lowered, but JUST getting depth doesn't make them good picks.

How YOU grade determines this for YOU.

2006 was an A+ draft. We had so many As on the board it's ridiculous.

2005 is a draft in the C range because nobody exceeded their slot. Everybody was average, which means we got none of the starting help you'd hope for (except for D-Will) and flushed a RB pick straight down the toilet with an exceedingly stupid pick.


And, as I mentioned before, the FO knew exactly what they were doing by
picking three CBs that year. Two of them are still there, and the other
would have been, all producing. I don't know what more you would expect.

I guess I'm not sure how the dime back is "producing." Maybe your definition is different than mine. Foxy and Paymah both get on the field occasionally, but mostly due to injury and only as little as we can afford. How is that a successful draft?


There you go again with your conjecture. They may or may not lose one
or both. Leave that until next year. This year, we don't know. And, as I
alluded, if neither ever starts, they are third-rounders. They can play out
their career as backups and still be counted as successful draft choices out
of the third round.

I guess I just have expect more from the draft than you. I will accept depth from the draft, but truly successful teams get starters from the 3rd. They draft guys who they know in 2 years can start to replace the high-priced vets while still maintaining championship caliber play. Instead, our two 3rd rounders after 2 years could not prevent us from adding a high-priced Vet in Bly. They were not ready. Why would I grade that highly?

3 years later we would have 3 of the players left from this draft, one starter and 2 backups. You'd rather I not talk about next year when looking at the grade now.

So I suppose that next year we should resurrect this thread and we can see if you agree with my grade once the other two DBs are no longer here as "depth."

The 3 year line is to give you a better assessment of the talent, not to say "But they're still on the team, so they still count for more than you think!"

Maybe to you they do - they don't to me.

~G

topscribe
05-07-2008, 04:52 PM
Good discussion, G.

Guess we'll have to resort to the old proverbial "agree to disagree." :beer:


I'm neglecting too much of my work. :smile:


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G_Money
05-07-2008, 05:18 PM
LOL me too, but screw em. I'm leaving soon anyway, and my next job might not give me the same internet access, so I better take advantage while I can, right?

~G

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05-07-2008, 05:19 PM
LOL me too, but screw em. I'm leaving soon anyway, and my next job might not give me the same internet access, so I better take advantage while I can, right?

~G

Well, I hope you can maintain your internet access.

I really enjoy your in-depth articles and comments.

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Nature Boy
05-07-2008, 05:49 PM
Which one of your
starting CBs would start for the Broncos, for sure?

In reply for San Luis. I think Antonio Cromartie of Chargers would start in Denver ahead of Dre Bly.

topscribe
05-07-2008, 06:45 PM
In reply for San Luis. I think Antonio Cromartie of Chargers would start in Denver ahead of Dre Bly.

Very possible. That's why I qualified it with "for sure."

However, that means their #1 would be our #2. Point made.

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56crash
05-07-2008, 08:54 PM
the draft did what it was supposes to so it gets an B . Who knows know’s if D-will would of kept up getting better that was stolen from us .

But I have seen paymah grow each season he is going to be great.

Chris Myers OG Miami (FL) did what he was drafted for and helped our team out I thank him .


Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
has been a great person on and off the field a great draft pick .

paymah should be signed to a long term contract out of all of them .

TXBRONC
05-07-2008, 09:33 PM
I don't know if Paymah will be great but I do think he's gotten better as time has gone on.

Poet
05-07-2008, 10:12 PM
um yeah what division are they in .. Which one of them looked and played like either SAN, NE or Indy..

The facts are they were carried to that game on the emotions of Farve..

They will not win consistently for awhile again..

Want to try another example?

I will take that bet any day of the week. They have one of the best defensives in the league, period. End of discussion. They have one of the best WR corps in the league, period. End of discussion. I am willingly to bet that at the least Aaron Rodgers will be a decent QB. He has had forever and a day to sit on the bench and study. McNair and Palmer are very good QBs, actually in their prime arguably great players who rode the bench and prospered. The Packers are a pretty good drafting team, I trust the pick. Hell, Tony Romo may be overrated and but at the very least he is a good QB. He rode the bench too.

Seeing how the second best team in that division has an inconsistent RB who is injury prone because of the way that he runs, the worst starting QB in the game, a questionable secondary I think they will be fine. The Third best team in that division traded away their best player, has Jon Kitna as their QB, and has no real big up and coming players barring wideouts. Then.....you have the Bears.....Yeah, they could turn it around this year if their defense is healthy, but do you want to bet on it?

Lonestar
05-08-2008, 12:42 AM
I will take that bet any day of the week. They have one of the best defensives in the league, period. End of discussion. They have one of the best WR corps in the league, period. End of discussion. I am willingly to bet that at the least Aaron Rodgers will be a decent QB. He has had forever and a day to sit on the bench and study. McNair and Palmer are very good QBs, actually in their prime arguably great players who rode the bench and prospered. The Packers are a pretty good drafting team, I trust the pick. Hell, Tony Romo may be overrated and but at the very least he is a good QB. He rode the bench too.

Seeing how the second best team in that division has an inconsistent RB who is injury prone because of the way that he runs, the worst starting QB in the game, a questionable secondary I think they will be fine. The Third best team in that division traded away their best player, has Jon Kitna as their QB, and has no real big up and coming players barring wideouts. Then.....you have the Bears.....Yeah, they could turn it around this year if their defense is healthy, but do you want to bet on it?

sorry but I have not idea what your ranting about here.. I see nothing in my post about a bet. the rest makes even less sense..

topscribe
05-08-2008, 01:05 AM
sorry but I have not idea what your ranting about here.. I see nothing in my post about a bet. the rest makes even less sense..

He's talking about Green Bay, whom I assume you were talking about. You
said the emotions of Favre got them where they ended up. He said, no, it was
more than that.

-----

Nature Boy
05-08-2008, 05:38 AM
Very possible. That's why I qualified it with "for sure."

However, that means their #1 would be our #2. Point made.

-----

You said which of SD's CBs would start for Denver as though they didn't have one and Cromartie would definitely start in Denver. So your point was not made.

Hawgdriver
05-08-2008, 07:03 AM
Stockpiling the 1st round pick - A+ (key strategic move that was necessary to land JC)
D-Will - A- (starter and kick returner, could have been a B to A+ but it will never be known)
Paymah, Foxy - B+ (better than most picks at this point in the draft)
Clarett - F (sometimes these risks pay off, sometimes you look like a complete idiot)
Myers - A- (got the player and the option to draft again in the future)
Ernster - B (about par for a late round leg)

Overall: A-

You get an A if you 'scored' with that pick, a B if it was a useful pick--at worst lived up to expectations for that round, a C if it was a reasonable decision that didn't work out, D was a questionable pick that failed, F was a highly questionable pick that failed.

To me this was a respectable showing by the organization, especially the use of the 1st round pick.

MOtorboat
05-08-2008, 07:23 AM
Stockpiling the 1st round pick - A+ (key strategic move that was necessary to land JC)
D-Will - A- (starter and kick returner, could have been a B to A+ but it will never be known)
Paymah, Foxy - B+ (better than most picks at this point in the draft)
Clarett - F (sometimes these risks pay off, sometimes you look like a complete idiot)
Myers - A- (got the player and the option to draft again in the future)
Ernster - B (about par for a late round leg)

Overall: A-

You get an A if you 'scored' with that pick, a B if it was a useful pick--at worst lived up to expectations for that round, a C if it was a reasonable decision that didn't work out, D was a questionable pick that failed, F was a highly questionable pick that failed.

To me this was a respectable showing by the organization, especially the use of the 1st round pick.

OK...dumb questioning and I'm mis-remembering...what did we get for that year's No. 1?

G_Money
05-08-2008, 09:40 AM
The Skins pick that we used to trade up and get Cutler the next year.

~G

G_Money
05-08-2008, 10:18 AM
Stockpiling the 1st round pick - A+ (key strategic move that was necessary to land JC)
D-Will - A- (starter and kick returner, could have been a B to A+ but it will never be known)
Paymah, Foxy - B+ (better than most picks at this point in the draft)
Clarett - F (sometimes these risks pay off, sometimes you look like a complete idiot)
Myers - A- (got the player and the option to draft again in the future)
Ernster - B (about par for a late round leg)

Overall: A-

You get an A if you 'scored' with that pick, a B if it was a useful pick--at worst lived up to expectations for that round, a C if it was a reasonable decision that didn't work out, D was a questionable pick that failed, F was a highly questionable pick that failed.

To me this was a respectable showing by the organization, especially the use of the 1st round pick.

I guess that's where I don't understand.

How can I have an A- draft when it's highly likely we won't have anyone left on the roster from that draft after this year? Will you suddenly downgrade the draft to a C once Foxy and Paymah leave in FA and we are not compensated in any way for their leaving?

I mean, if our 05 draft is an A-, what is the Chargers' draft?

Merriman - Pro Bowler and Juicer
Castillo - starter
V-Jack - mostly starter
Darren Sproles - explosive KR

All of those guys look to be Chargers after this year. Their 2005 draft gave them players who have helped the whole time they've been around, mostly as starters, and a couple of whom have been impact players.

The Giants had 4 picks in that draft. They took CB Corey Webster, DL extraordinaire Justin Tuck and behemoth back Brandon Jacobs with three of em, which is why I'm not giving the Broncos a pass on their lack of picks.

I don't understand grading our draft in a vacuum. If we did significantly worse than other teams that drafted, then we should probably be graded significantly lower.

If D-Will winds up as the only player we would have had left from the 2005 draft and there's an A-/B+ grade on that draft, then what do you rate the 04 draft as?

D.J. Williams - starter
Tatum Bell - was a starter, traded to another team as part of a package for Bly
Darius Watts - got some playing time, then let go
Jeremy LeSueur - ha
Jeff Shoate - ha ha
Triandos Luke - *snicker*
Josh Sewell - nope
Matt Mauck - uh uh
Brandon Miree - nada
Bradlee Van Pelt - goners

We had 4 1st day picks in 2004 and 4 1st day picks in 2005. The picks were 17, 41, 54, & 85 in 04 and 56, 76, 97 & 101 in 05.

With less to work with and worse 1st day picks, you'd have to grade the 05 draft as a little better than the 04 draft, I'd think. OTOH, there's an argument to be made for turning Tater into Bly helping to salvage that pick slightly.

But IMO both drafts will have (or would have) left us with 1 guy after 4 years.

If you're giving the 2004 draft something less than a B for its one guy, then I'd have to give the 2005 draft something less than a low-A/High-B.

Maybe that's just me - and I can definitely see taking a two-year look at the draft and the loss of our 1st round pick in 05 leading to the Cutler pick in 06 being used as a justification for raising the value of the '05 draft to us.

It just seems to me that the great teams have built through the draft, using years and years of picks to compile a team that can stay together and win for a long period of time.

You can't build through the draft if you have 1 or zero guys left from that draft after 3-4 years. On a 53 man roster that's just not enough guys.

The Broncos had 1 player on their roster from the 1999-2004 drafts last year didn't they?

The Colts had 21 of 22 of their SB winning starters that were drafted by them.

We made steps with the 06 draft, but IMO the 05 draft was not as good as advertised. That's all.

Hopefully the 07 draft gets better and the 08 draft works out like the 06 draft, and then maybe we can really start to build something special again, something that lets us add a NECESSARY free-agent when required without having to try to add every free-agent on the market to fill need holes.

~G

Retired_Member_001
05-08-2008, 12:13 PM
If DWill was still alive, it would be an easy B. Unlike some who made DWill 3x better after he died, I thought DWill was always a good CB. At the end of the day, he had the hardest job in football. He had to play CB opposite CHAMP BAILEY. Even Dre' Bly, a Pro Bowler, struggled at times. DWill could be a future star on most NFL Teams in my opinion. He was definitely 1st round talent.

I'm not a big Foxworth fan. He can't tackle, he gives up big plays, he's inconsistent. I definitely think he could not be starting on most teams. Starting on some poor teams maybe, but starting on most teams? Nah.

Paymah is quite good though for where he was selected. He's a good backup, a guy you can trust.

Clarett was a complete joke. It was a risk, a risk that didn't pay off.

Chris Myers was a good steal. He did a good job for us last year and he could start on a few teams in the league. Definitely one of the typical Shanahan offensive lineman steals in the late round. I was dissapointed we couldn't keep him here, he is definitely a good guy to have.

Ersnter is horrible, but he's a 7th rounder. Who cares?

I'd probably have to go with a C though because none of the guys that we drafted will be playing for us next season. That is unless Paymah stays.

HolyDiver
05-08-2008, 12:18 PM
the draft did what it was supposes to so it gets an B . Who knows know’s if D-will would of kept up getting better that was stolen from us .

But I have seen paymah grow each season he is going to be great.

Chris Myers OG Miami (FL) did what he was drafted for and helped our team out I thank him .


Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
has been a great person on and off the field a great draft pick .

paymah should be signed to a long term contract out of all of them .

56Crash? ................. Same Crash from the RMN and BeoncosFreak?

topscribe
05-08-2008, 12:31 PM
If DWill was still alive, it would be an easy B. Unlike some who made DWill 3x better after he died, I thought DWill was always a good CB. At the end of the day, he had the hardest job in football. He had to play CB opposite CHAMP BAILEY. Even Dre' Bly, a Pro Bowler, struggled at times. DWill could be a future star on most NFL Teams in my opinion. He was definitely 1st round talent.

I'm not a big Foxworth fan. He can't tackle, he gives up big plays, he's inconsistent. I definitely think he could not be starting on most teams. Starting on some poor teams maybe, but starting on most teams? Nah.

Paymah is quite good though for where he was selected. He's a good backup, a guy you can trust.

Clarett was a complete joke. It was a risk, a risk that didn't pay off.

Chris Myers was a good steal. He did a good job for us last year and he could start on a few teams in the league. Definitely one of the typical Shanahan offensive lineman steals in the late round. I was dissapointed we couldn't keep him here, he is definitely a good guy to have.

Ersnter is horrible, but he's a 7th rounder. Who cares?

I'd probably have to go with a C though because none of the guys that we drafted will be playing for us next season. That is unless Paymah stays.

Why would D-Will's not being alive downgrade the draft? That's the point.
He wasn't drafted for that to happen, and it did not identify him as a bust.
So if he made the draft a B, it would still be a B, wouldn't it?

The point is how good a job the FO did in their selecting process. D-Will's
death has nothing to do with that.

And, as I previously and correctly stated, whether these guys will still be
here next year is conjecture. If we are going to grade the draft, it should
be on facts, on what is true now, not on what might happen because we
don't know that.

-----

Retired_Member_001
05-08-2008, 12:39 PM
Why would D-Will's not being alive downgrade the draft? That's the point.
He wasn't drafted for that to happen, and it did not identify him as a bust.
So if he made the draft a B, it would still be a B, wouldn't it?

The point is how good a job the FO did in their selecting process. D-Will's
death has nothing to do with that.

And, as I previously and correctly stated, whether these guys will still be
here next year is conjecture. If we are going to grade the draft, it should
be on facts, on what is true now, not on what might happen because we
don't know that.

-----

When grading drafts from 3 years ago, I think you have to judge it by a combination of talent of the players AND the good the draft did for the team. For example, you could have a really solid draft, picking up two star building blocks , three good players and two depth players. It could seem all great talent wise. However, if you were to lose the two building blocks (future franchise faces) as well as two of the three good players, then the draft was not as big of a sucess as it may seem.

If you are going by talent alone, the 2005 draft is a B. But what has it really done for the team? Of course unfortunate circumstances have prevented the draft from reaching it's full potential. But still, the rest of the guys we drafted are not going to be doing anything for us in the future.

Be it unfortunate circumstances, or players leaving, the 2005 Draft has not produced a player that will be with us after this season.

Talent wise it's a B.
For the benefit of the Broncos, it's a D.

G_Money
05-08-2008, 12:45 PM
So the draft is a C+ for you until Nalen and Hamilton get hurt and Myers gets to start, and then since he's suddenly forced to be a less-than-stellar starter, it bumps up to a B+?

If Foxy and Paymah are both gone next year, it's back down into the Cs again, but if we retain both it's a B+, and then if Bly goes down with an injury and Foxy starts I'm guessing it's an A...?

You say you're judging it on a basis of fact instead of conjecture, but that just leaves your draft grade blowing in the wind.

If you assess Foxy and Paymah as starters who just aren't being given the proper chance to start HERE then I can see your grade. I mean, getting 3 starting CBs in one draft is pretty amazing.

But if your draft grade is based strictly on whether they are on the team at this second, and started for any reason whatsoever, then I don't get it still. Because your draft grade could plummet next year, or next week, and I thought that was what we were trying to avoid by using a 3-year lag time in the first place - isn't it?

If the 3 year window is to give you time to assess the talents of the players you drafted, then I assess the two corners we have left as Nickels, or Dimes. I think Foxy would get killed as a starting RCB.

And that makes the draft lower for me than it obviously does for you. I agree that D-Will's death can't be held against the draft grade, because were he still alive he would likely still be starting or at worst our nickel back and KR.

But as for the rest...I guess I'm still confused by your reasoning. Still, I appreciate the well-voiced argument without rancor. :) Some boards, you just don't get that on.

~G

Hawgdriver
05-08-2008, 12:48 PM
I guess that's where I don't understand.

How can I have an A- draft when it's highly likely we won't have anyone left on the roster from that draft after this year? Will you suddenly downgrade the draft to a C once Foxy and Paymah leave in FA and we are not compensated in any way for their leaving?

I mean, if our 05 draft is an A-, what is the Chargers' draft?

Merriman - Pro Bowler and Juicer
Castillo - starter
V-Jack - mostly starter
Darren Sproles - explosive KR

All of those guys look to be Chargers after this year. Their 2005 draft gave them players who have helped the whole time they've been around, mostly as starters, and a couple of whom have been impact players.

The Giants had 4 picks in that draft. They took CB Corey Webster, DL extraordinaire Justin Tuck and behemoth back Brandon Jacobs with three of em, which is why I'm not giving the Broncos a pass on their lack of picks.

I don't understand grading our draft in a vacuum. If we did significantly worse than other teams that drafted, then we should probably be graded significantly lower.

If D-Will winds up as the only player we would have had left from the 2005 draft and there's an A-/B+ grade on that draft, then what do you rate the 04 draft as?

D.J. Williams - starter
Tatum Bell - was a starter, traded to another team as part of a package for Bly
Darius Watts - got some playing time, then let go
Jeremy LeSueur - ha
Jeff Shoate - ha ha
Triandos Luke - *snicker*
Josh Sewell - nope
Matt Mauck - uh uh
Brandon Miree - nada
Bradlee Van Pelt - goners

We had 4 1st day picks in 2004 and 4 1st day picks in 2005. The picks were 17, 41, 54, & 85 in 04 and 56, 76, 97 & 101 in 05.

With less to work with and worse 1st day picks, you'd have to grade the 05 draft as a little better than the 04 draft, I'd think. OTOH, there's an argument to be made for turning Tater into Bly helping to salvage that pick slightly.

But IMO both drafts will have (or would have) left us with 1 guy after 4 years.

If you're giving the 2004 draft something less than a B for its one guy, then I'd have to give the 2005 draft something less than a low-A/High-B.

Maybe that's just me - and I can definitely see taking a two-year look at the draft and the loss of our 1st round pick in 05 leading to the Cutler pick in 06 being used as a justification for raising the value of the '05 draft to us.

It just seems to me that the great teams have built through the draft, using years and years of picks to compile a team that can stay together and win for a long period of time.

You can't build through the draft if you have 1 or zero guys left from that draft after 3-4 years. On a 53 man roster that's just not enough guys.

The Broncos had 1 player on their roster from the 1999-2004 drafts last year didn't they?

The Colts had 21 of 22 of their SB winning starters that were drafted by them.

We made steps with the 06 draft, but IMO the 05 draft was not as good as advertised. That's all.

Hopefully the 07 draft gets better and the 08 draft works out like the 06 draft, and then maybe we can really start to build something special again, something that lets us add a NECESSARY free-agent when required without having to try to add every free-agent on the market to fill need holes.

~G

You make a good point that an A- doesn't leave much room to explain the significantly better drafts of other organizations. Perhaps A- is too high and needs to come down after San Diego "sets the curve". They did have an unusually good draft that year.

Grading in a vacuum is fraught with potential errors. I think giving a draft choice a B means you did beat the average. However, I don't have the raw data on starter/replacement longevity vs. draft number, so it's difficult for me to know that my grades are perfect. Consider them more qualitative than worthy of setting a Bronco's GPA. They did above average overall. If A- seems too laudatory, then maybe I'm too generous. I think if you look at how many picks (including the use of the #1 to draft half of Cutler or whatever) have stuck on the roster, it seems like a good doggone draft. But again, I don't have longevity vs. selection # metrics to vouch that claim.

Certainly those teams you mentioned had outstanding drafts, and there is no way you could say the Broncos earned an A- if we call their drafts an A. We would have to let them set the curve--you are right in that I 'vacuum graded'. Good discussion.

Edit: I think looking at the use of a particular year's set of draft picks, which can be reshaped in trades, etc., is important to compare apples to apples. But if a team earns extra picks via trades, do they automatically get an advantage when their draft is graded? This is a difficult question.

Hawgdriver
05-08-2008, 12:58 PM
I think Foxy would get killed as a starting RCB.

He started nine games as a rookie and was an adequate starter. He can certainly be considered an "above replacement level" NFL cornerback given our evidence of his play to this point. Most 3rd round cornerbacks are not above replacement level, and many of them are not even close to replacement level.

topscribe
05-08-2008, 01:04 PM
When grading drafts from 3 years ago, I think you have to judge it by a combination of talent of the players AND the good the draft did for the team. For example, you could have a really solid draft, picking up two star building blocks , three good players and two depth players. It could seem all great talent wise. However, if you were to lose the two building blocks (future franchise faces) as well as two of the three good players, then the draft was not as big of a sucess as it may seem.

If you are going by talent alone, the 2005 draft is a B. But what has it really done for the team? Of course unfortunate circumstances have prevented the draft from reaching it's full potential. But still, the rest of the guys we drafted are not going to be doing anything for us in the future.

Be it unfortunate circumstances, or players leaving, the 2005 Draft has not produced a player that will be with us after this season.

Talent wise it's a B.
For the benefit of the Broncos, it's a D.

Wow. I did a great job with my post, didn't I? I caused you do downgrade
from a C to a D.

But I just haven't gotten through to all you who insist on grading a draft
on what might be. Foxy and Paymah have been important cogs on the
defense up until now; why would they not be in the future? :confused:

All the Broncos have at the time are five quality CBs, if you count Jack
Williams in that . . . if not, then they have only four. Why, then, is it
reasonable to you that the Broncos are simply going to let two of them just
saunter on down the road when they had to draft one to bring it back up to
five? So they can just toss a couple to the wind and end up with three
again?

Nonetheless, it is still conjecture. You are grading a draft on (1) a death
and (2) what might be. If you are going to grade an accomplishment, then
grade that accomplishment. D-Will was a budding star when he was killed,
according to many. If that's true, then the Broncos drafted a budding star.
His death did nothing to change the Broncos' performance in that draft.

As for Foxy and Paymah, they have performed well for third-round draft
choices. Did you catch that? Third-round draft choices. A third-rounder
may or may not start, but he is expected to contribute. They not only have
done that, but they have done it well.

Then we get to Myers. A sixth-rounder is not expected to start, and it is
questionable he will even make the team. Myers not only made the team;
he ended up starting. Yes, there are those who throw out extenuating
reasons why he started. I don't buy extenuating reasons. If we start that
game, then we have to start throwing out excuses as to why a QB threw
certain INTs ("well, it was tipped") or certain TD passes ("the defender fell
down"). No, an INT is an INT, and a TD is a TD. And a starter is a starter.
Myers ended up starting, and Houston has already handed the starting job
to him again. Any time a sixth-rounder ends up starting, that has to merit
an A for his draft selection.

Back to Foxy and Paymah: The Broncos have the best CB corps in the
league (I guess arguably, but I don't think so). Bailey and Bly alone don't
make it so. We are looking at the total group. It's Foxy and Paymah who
round out the best group.

Putting all this into consideration, plus the fact that the first-rounder was
a factor in landing Cutler, then that is an A, IMO. Clarett drags it down to
a B, in my estimation. (Ernster in the 7th round is a non-factor since a
seventh-rounder is not necessarily expected to make the squad.)

Again, Myers helped to keep the O-line from collapsing into a shambles last
year, and Foxy and Paymah round out the best CB corps in the league. I
don't know how that can equate to a low grade.

The event involving D-Will was a tragedy. But D-Will himself made the draft
a rousing success.

-----

Lonestar
05-08-2008, 02:09 PM
If DWill was still alive, it would be an easy B. Unlike some who made DWill 3x better after he died, I thought DWill was always a good CB. At the end of the day, he had the hardest job in football. He had to play CB opposite CHAMP BAILEY. Even Dre' Bly, a Pro Bowler, struggled at times. DWill could be a future star on most NFL Teams in my opinion. He was definitely 1st round talent.

I'm not a big Foxworth fan. He can't tackle, he gives up big plays, he's inconsistent. I definitely think he could not be starting on most teams. Starting on some poor teams maybe, but starting on most teams? Nah.

Paymah is quite good though for where he was selected. He's a good backup, a guy you can trust.

Clarett was a complete joke. It was a risk, a risk that didn't pay off.

Chris Myers was a good steal. He did a good job for us last year and he could start on a few teams in the league. Definitely one of the typical Shanahan offensive lineman steals in the late round. I was dissapointed we couldn't keep him here, he is definitely a good guy to have.

Ersnter is horrible, but he's a 7th rounder. Who cares?

I'd probably have to go with a C though because none of the guys that we drafted will be playing for us next season. That is unless Paymah stays.

While D-Will did start the key is why, mostly because he was the best of what we had, does not necessarily mean that he could have started on any other teams remember over a 4-5 year period the only the players that stuck with this teams from the draft was a couple of LB and OLINE guys..

That left IMO a lot of talent vacuum on the squad and yes they were starters but when you evaluate our team you have to compared them to the other teams in the league and more importantly in out conference and DIVISION.

Dwill was OK and what happened was a tragedy, but face it folks he was not ever going to be Champ or pro bowl caliber.. Nor IMO even at the same level as Bly is.. Most folks were calling for his head by seasons end. Do you think that we would have traded for BLY if he was still on the team given the same circumstances.. I think mikey would have called it the same way..

BOSSHOGG30
05-08-2008, 02:58 PM
Overall C

2 24(56) Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma St. B

Do we get a mulligan on this one? I think Williams would of been one heck of a football player. He was an excellent tackler for his size and played with everything he had. He did get beat quite a bit but he did show great improvement in short time. If he was still with us I think he would of proven to be worthy of that late 2nd round pick. He was an excellent return man and person.

3 12(76) Karl Paymah CB Wash. St. C+
Paymah has gotten better and better each season. If he continues to progress like he is by the time he is 30 he will be a pretty darn good cornerback.

3 34(97) Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland B-
Foxworth has been a class act and is showing decent improvement each year. Playing behind Champ Bailey and Darrent Williams and now Dre Bly is tough. He also has been asked to play safety a few times which isn't his strong suit. Overall Foxworth is a very promising player that I think can be just as good as Bly if not better.

3 38(101) Maurice Clarett HB Ohio St. F
Didn't even make the team in his first year. Horrible pick and horrible gamble. I understand we didn't have a 4th or 5th round pick, but come on!

6 26(200) Chris Myers OG Miami (FL) B-
Myers will be judged on who well our new 6th round pick does. But as for what we received out of him I would say it was pretty good for a 6th round pick.

7 25(239) Paul Ernster PK N. Arizona D
Ernster didn't do anything for us really, but it is a 7th round pick and a kicker so you can't put too much into account with this pick. Especially when you have Jason Elam blocking him from producing as a place kicker.

Retired_Member_001
05-08-2008, 04:14 PM
Wow. I did a great job with my post, didn't I? I caused you do downgrade
from a C to a D.

But I just haven't gotten through to all you who insist on grading a draft
on what might be. Foxy and Paymah have been important cogs on the
defense up until now; why would they not be in the future? :confused:

All the Broncos have at the time are five quality CBs, if you count Jack
Williams in that . . . if not, then they have only four. Why, then, is it
reasonable to you that the Broncos are simply going to let two of them just
saunter on down the road when they had to draft one to bring it back up to
five? So they can just toss a couple to the wind and end up with three
again?

Nonetheless, it is still conjecture. You are grading a draft on (1) a death
and (2) what might be. If you are going to grade an accomplishment, then
grade that accomplishment. D-Will was a budding star when he was killed,
according to many. If that's true, then the Broncos drafted a budding star.
His death did nothing to change the Broncos' performance in that draft.

As for Foxy and Paymah, they have performed well for third-round draft
choices. Did you catch that? Third-round draft choices. A third-rounder
may or may not start, but he is expected to contribute. They not only have
done that, but they have done it well.

Then we get to Myers. A sixth-rounder is not expected to start, and it is
questionable he will even make the team. Myers not only made the team;
he ended up starting. Yes, there are those who throw out extenuating
reasons why he started. I don't buy extenuating reasons. If we start that
game, then we have to start throwing out excuses as to why a QB threw
certain INTs ("well, it was tipped") or certain TD passes ("the defender fell
down"). No, an INT is an INT, and a TD is a TD. And a starter is a starter.
Myers ended up starting, and Houston has already handed the starting job
to him again. Any time a sixth-rounder ends up starting, that has to merit
an A for his draft selection.

Back to Foxy and Paymah: The Broncos have the best CB corps in the
league (I guess arguably, but I don't think so). Bailey and Bly alone don't
make it so. We are looking at the total group. It's Foxy and Paymah who
round out the best group.

Putting all this into consideration, plus the fact that the first-rounder was
a factor in landing Cutler, then that is an A, IMO. Clarett drags it down to
a B, in my estimation. (Ernster in the 7th round is a non-factor since a
seventh-rounder is not necessarily expected to make the squad.)

Again, Myers helped to keep the O-line from collapsing into a shambles last
year, and Foxy and Paymah round out the best CB corps in the league. I
don't know how that can equate to a low grade.

The event involving D-Will was a tragedy. But D-Will himself made the draft
a rousing success.

-----

First of all Top, I'll make it 100% clear that I am not blaming the Broncos in any way for the 2005 Draft. I definitely think it could have been a good draft. I think you may misunderstand what I'm trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that "Yes, the draft brought in some very talented players from rounds you wouldn't expect that kind of talent in. However, that draft cannot be deemed successful from a good of the team standpoint because we will not have any players from that draft next season.

When you watch the NFL on TV, you will usually see the announcers make a comment on how many players the team has that they have drafted. You'll usually find that the talented teams have built the base of their team through the draft. After all, the reason a GM even bothers with the draft is because it is the best way to build a team. If players are not making the team a few years on from that draft, how can you call it successful? As I said before, I'm in no way blaming the Broncos for the lack of success from the 2005 draft, but it just cannot, in no possible shape or form be called a success unless the team has players from that draft playing key roles for them.

See my two different grades are grading:

1. How Shanahan performed in that draft.
2. How the Draft turned out.

In another time in another world, this draft could have worked out. But at the end of the day it didn't, that's why the draft should get a low grade.

There is one thing I will agree on though and it is the biggest succes of this draft. It's the fact that we managed to draft Jay Cutler the year later because of this draft.

The only thing is, you don't grade drafts on what happens the year later, so this draft would have to go down as a fail. Not because the Broncos made a mistake, but because several different circumstances ( DWill's death, Myers leaving, Foxworth leaving at the end of the season) did not allow it.

Retired_Member_001
05-08-2008, 04:26 PM
While D-Will did start the key is why, mostly because he was the best of what we had, does not necessarily mean that he could have started on any other teams remember over a 4-5 year period the only the players that stuck with this teams from the draft was a couple of LB and OLINE guys..

That left IMO a lot of talent vacuum on the squad and yes they were starters but when you evaluate our team you have to compared them to the other teams in the league and more importantly in out conference and DIVISION.

Dwill was OK and what happened was a tragedy, but face it folks he was not ever going to be Champ or pro bowl caliber.. Nor IMO even at the same level as Bly is.. Most folks were calling for his head by seasons end. Do you think that we would have traded for BLY if he was still on the team given the same circumstances.. I think mikey would have called it the same way..

No offense Jr, but you've never been a fan of DWill.

DWill was playing the hardest position in football, cornerback opposite Champ Bailey, whilst having a piss poor defensive line to get to the quarterback. That's not an easy job AT ALL. I don't see it as impossible that Darrent could have been to a few Pro Bowls. He would never become a Champ Bailey, but he WELL could have made a few Pro Bowls.

There's no doubt that DWill DID struggle, but when we put Foxworth/Paymah in instead of him, they were getting TORCHED.

Infact, if you take away the game against the Colts when Reggie Wayne torched him, people wouldn't have such a negative attitude towards him.

Remember, hardest position in football and piss poor defensive line.

Lonestar
05-08-2008, 05:02 PM
No offense Jr, but you've never been a fan of DWill.

DWill was playing the hardest position in football, cornerback opposite Champ Bailey, whilst having a piss poor defensive line to get to the quarterback. That's not an easy job AT ALL. I don't see it as impossible that Darrent could have been to a few Pro Bowls. He would never become a Champ Bailey, but he WELL could have made a few Pro Bowls.

There's no doubt that DWill DID struggle, but when we put Foxworth/Paymah in instead of him, they were getting TORCHED.

Infact, if you take away the game against the Colts when Reggie Wayne torched him, people wouldn't have such a negative attitude towards him.

Remember, hardest position in football and piss poor defensive line.


I have never been his fan or foxy for that matter because ONE darrent was not thought highly enough to draft him as a CB but because he was taken primarily as a KR.. It was only because our current CB sucked that he was given a shot at it.. Foxy because he is a really nice kid a model citizen but IMO is not NFL CB quality.. Never be a starter on a decent team..

Well I can say we will have to agree to disagree on this one..

As a starter he did nothing for me and frankly IMO would have never played this position on most other decent or better teams..

I know it is a hard position to play, but that should not be an excuse.. Yes I know that our DL has has SUCKED for almost a decade.. But on the other side of the field Champ did not struggle like D-will did. Yes I know that they were not throwing at Champ that is for two really good reasons Champ is good and Darrent was not.. IMO.. DUH!!

topscribe
05-08-2008, 07:21 PM
First of all Top, I'll make it 100% clear that I am not blaming the Broncos in any way for the 2005 Draft. I definitely think it could have been a good draft. I think you may misunderstand what I'm trying to say. What I'm trying to say is that "Yes, the draft brought in some very talented players from rounds you wouldn't expect that kind of talent in. However, that draft cannot be deemed successful from a good of the team standpoint because we will not have any players from that draft next season.

When you watch the NFL on TV, you will usually see the announcers make a comment on how many players the team has that they have drafted. You'll usually find that the talented teams have built the base of their team through the draft. After all, the reason a GM even bothers with the draft is because it is the best way to build a team. If players are not making the team a few years on from that draft, how can you call it successful? As I said before, I'm in no way blaming the Broncos for the lack of success from the 2005 draft, but it just cannot, in no possible shape or form be called a success unless the team has players from that draft playing key roles for them.

See my two different grades are grading:

1. How Shanahan performed in that draft.
2. How the Draft turned out.

In another time in another world, this draft could have worked out. But at the end of the day it didn't, that's why the draft should get a low grade.

There is one thing I will agree on though and it is the biggest succes of this draft. It's the fact that we managed to draft Jay Cutler the year later because of this draft.

The only thing is, you don't grade drafts on what happens the year later, so this draft would have to go down as a fail. Not because the Broncos made a mistake, but because several different circumstances ( DWill's death, Myers leaving, Foxworth leaving at the end of the season) did not allow it.

Wow, Wook. I was going to give you a Salute and a Hi-5 for this post until
you said that. Drafts are graded over what happens the next three years.
(Of course that does not include shootings.) It is common knowledge that it
usually takes that long to know about a draft. Isn't that why we are
discussing the 2005 draft, and not the 2006 or 2007 draft?

And you're still talking about Foxy's leaving at the end of the season, even
after I called your attention to it . . . more than once. What information do
you have that even the FO doesn't have regarding this move you think is so
sure?

-----

TXBRONC
05-08-2008, 07:35 PM
Overall C

2 24(56) Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma St. B

Do we get a mulligan on this one? I think Williams would of been one heck of a football player. He was an excellent tackler for his size and played with everything he had. He did get beat quite a bit but he did show great improvement in short time. If he was still with us I think he would of proven to be worthy of that late 2nd round pick. He was an excellent return man and person.

3 12(76) Karl Paymah CB Wash. St. C+
Paymah has gotten better and better each season. If he continues to progress like he is by the time he is 30 he will be a pretty darn good cornerback.

3 34(97) Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland B-
Foxworth has been a class act and is showing decent improvement each year. Playing behind Champ Bailey and Darrent Williams and now Dre Bly is tough. He also has been asked to play safety a few times which isn't his strong suit. Overall Foxworth is a very promising player that I think can be just as good as Bly if not better.

3 38(101) Maurice Clarett HB Ohio St. F
Didn't even make the team in his first year. Horrible pick and horrible gamble. I understand we didn't have a 4th or 5th round pick, but come on!

6 26(200) Chris Myers OG Miami (FL) B-
Myers will be judged on who well our new 6th round pick does. But as for what we received out of him I would say it was pretty good for a 6th round pick.

7 25(239) Paul Ernster PK N. Arizona D
Ernster didn't do anything for us really, but it is a 7th round pick and a kicker so you can't put too much into account with this pick. Especially when you have Jason Elam blocking him from producing as a place kicker.


Bobby Taylor had a lot to do with Shanahan picking Clarrett. Considering what he has done in the past with other running backs I would have trusted him too.

Poet
05-08-2008, 07:47 PM
To me it would seem to be a C+. I mean, the best player you got out of the draft still had enough time to improve or regress. The rest seems solid, and getting better pick is pretty decent.

Maurice Clarrett was one of teh worst picks ever. I read that he came to practice with vodka in his water bottle.

Retired_Member_001
05-09-2008, 05:26 AM
Wow, Wook. I was going to give you a Salute and a Hi-5 for this post until
you said that. Drafts are graded over what happens the next three years.
(Of course that does not include shootings.) It is common knowledge that it
usually takes that long to know about a draft. Isn't that why we are
discussing the 2005 draft, and not the 2006 or 2007 draft?

And you're still talking about Foxy's leaving at the end of the season, even
after I called your attention to it . . . more than once. What information do
you have that even the FO doesn't have regarding this move you think is so
sure?

-----

Sorry, you misunderstood what I said and it was my fault. I should have arranged my words better.

What I meant is that you can't grade a draft depending on who we drafted NEXT year. I was reffering to the trade that allowed us to take Cutler next year. Obviously that trade had an effect on the 2005 draft, however, I don't think you can really give the draft a big + in terms of the grade department because of the trade.

Retired_Member_001
05-09-2008, 05:30 AM
I have never been his fan or foxy for that matter because ONE darrent was not thought highly enough to draft him as a CB but because he was taken primarily as a KR.. It was only because our current CB sucked that he was given a shot at it.. Foxy because he is a really nice kid a model citizen but IMO is not NFL CB quality.. Never be a starter on a decent team..

Well I can say we will have to agree to disagree on this one..

As a starter he did nothing for me and frankly IMO would have never played this position on most other decent or better teams..

I know it is a hard position to play, but that should not be an excuse.. Yes I know that our DL has has SUCKED for almost a decade.. But on the other side of the field Champ did not struggle like D-will did. Yes I know that they were not throwing at Champ that is for two really good reasons Champ is good and Darrent was not.. IMO.. DUH!!

Let's correct your statement.

Champ was (and still is) LEGANDARY, DWill is not. Of course he was not up to Champ's standards and he would never be. But I don't think it's that impossible to believe DWill could have made one or two Pro Bowls. I actually could see him developing into a Dre' Bly type of player.

The only CB that would not struggle opposite Champ Bailey with THAT bad of a defensive line is Asante Samuels. You'll find that nearly every other CB In the league would have struggled.

Ziggy
05-09-2008, 08:05 AM
Bobby Taylor had a lot to do with Shanahan picking Clarrett. Considering what he has done in the past with other running backs I would have trusted him too.


You mean Bobby Turner, Tex?

Poet
05-09-2008, 11:37 AM
Let's correct your statement.

Champ was (and still is) LEGANDARY, DWill is not. Of course he was not up to Champ's standards and he would never be. But I don't think it's that impossible to believe DWill could have made one or two Pro Bowls. I actually could see him developing into a Dre' Bly type of player.

The only CB that would not struggle opposite Champ Bailey with THAT bad of a defensive line is Asante Samuels. You'll find that nearly every other CB In the league would have struggled.

Champ Bailey is great, but not legendary. Jerry Rice is legendary. Lawrence Taylor is legendary. To be considered legendary it has to be very clear that you are the best of all time at your position. Champ can get there, but there are plenty of other CBs that at this point in time are better than he for their career.

Asante Samuels is overrated. He reminds me of Deltha O'neal when he was a good CB for the Bengals. He can get picks in the big moments of important games, and he is flashy. But his stardom came from being the all star defensive player on a team that the media has to slob over constantly.

topscribe
05-09-2008, 02:03 PM
Champ Bailey is great, but not legendary. Jerry Rice is legendary. Lawrence Taylor is legendary. To be considered legendary it has to be very clear that you are the best of all time at your position. Champ can get there, but there are plenty of other CBs that at this point in time are better than he for their career.

Asante Samuels is overrated. He reminds me of Deltha O'neal when he was a good CB for the Bengals. He can get picks in the big moments of important games, and he is flashy. But his stardom came from being the all star defensive player on a team that the media has to slob over constantly.

Paul Warfield is legendary. Gayle Sayers is legendary. So are Johnny Unitas,
Otto Graham, Jim Brown, Dick Butkus, Reggie White, Deacon Jones, John
Elway, Joe Montana, Elroy "Crazy Legs" Hirsch, etc., etc. etc.

How can each of all these guys be the best of all time at his position? I
have listed several right here that compete with each other for that status.

With all his perennial Pro Bowls and All-Pro selections, if Champ Bailey isn't a
legend yet, he is awfully close to it. There is little doubt that he will go
down in NFL annals as a legend in the HOF.

Anyway, what Wook was talking about was the other side. He was saying
that just because D-Will was picked on was not because he wasn't good.
It was because Champ was on the other side, and the offense certainly
did not want to pick on him. I think that was Wook's point.

And I will repeat to JR that D-Will was in his 2nd year. CBs in their 2nd year
are not near their peak yet. Because he was still learning, as 2nd year CBs
are, he got beat once in a while. But many saw him as a budding star,
including the guy on the other side: Champ.

-----

Ziggy
05-09-2008, 02:11 PM
Champ Bailey is great, but not legendary. Jerry Rice is legendary. Lawrence Taylor is legendary. To be considered legendary it has to be very clear that you are the best of all time at your position. Champ can get there, but there are plenty of other CBs that at this point in time are better than he for their career.

Asante Samuels is overrated. He reminds me of Deltha O'neal when he was a good CB for the Bengals. He can get picks in the big moments of important games, and he is flashy. But his stardom came from being the all star defensive player on a team that the media has to slob over constantly.

That's a ridiculous statement. If it were true, there would only be 25 or so legends in the history of the NFL. :confused:

Retired_Member_001
05-09-2008, 02:16 PM
Champ Bailey is great, but not legendary. Jerry Rice is legendary. Lawrence Taylor is legendary. To be considered legendary it has to be very clear that you are the best of all time at your position. Champ can get there, but there are plenty of other CBs that at this point in time are better than he for their career.

Asante Samuels is overrated. He reminds me of Deltha O'neal when he was a good CB for the Bengals. He can get picks in the big moments of important games, and he is flashy. But his stardom came from being the all star defensive player on a team that the media has to slob over constantly.

As Ziggy just said, if you needed to be the best at your position of all time to be a legend, there wouldn't be many NFL legends. I think to be truley legendary, you need to win a Super Bowl. If Champ can win at least one Super Bowl in his career, it would be hard to call him anything less than legendary. The man has been a dominant force in the league for a while now.

Retired_Member_001
05-09-2008, 02:18 PM
Anyway, what Wook was talking about was the other side. He was saying
that just because D-Will was picked on was not because he wasn't good.
It was because Champ was on the other side, and the offense certainly
did not want to pick on him. I think that was Wook's point.

And I will repeat to JR that D-Will was in his 2nd year. CBs in their 2nd year
are not near their peak yet. Because he was still learning, as 2nd year CBs
are, he got beat once in a while. But many saw him as a budding star,
including the guy on the other side: Champ.

-----

Exactly my point. As I said before, you also can't forget the bad defensive line.

Ziggy
05-09-2008, 02:28 PM
As Ziggy just said, if you needed to be the best at your position of all time to be a legend, there wouldn't be many NFL legends. I think to be truley legendary, you need to win a Super Bowl. If Champ can win at least one Super Bowl in his career, it would be hard to call him anything less than legendary. The man has been a dominant force in the league for a while now.

I have to disagree with you there Wook. I think Dan Marino is legendary, I think Barry Sanders is legendary, I think Fran Tarkenton is legendary, as are many others who have never won a championship.

Retired_Member_001
05-09-2008, 04:17 PM
I have to disagree with you there Wook. I think Dan Marino is legendary, I think Barry Sanders is legendary, I think Fran Tarkenton is legendary, as are many others who have never won a championship.

I can seriously understand your reasoning. I mean it's not a rule I like, it's I as a person find it hard to call someone one of the best when they haven't won it all. Winning it all proves you are the best.

It's just a rule I have. I mean this counts for all sports.

I'm reading an NBA Top 50 book right now (very indepth). When you look at alll the legends who haven't won a ring, they just can't be ranked that high because of it. Karl Malone for example could be ranked easily in the top 10 IF he won that ring. The problem is he didn't, so he's ranked down in 17. I know this is just a writer writing it, but I agree with him.

All I'm saying is that in my opinion, you need to win a rank to be truley legendary.

Ziggy
05-09-2008, 04:33 PM
I can seriously understand your reasoning. I mean it's not a rule I like, it's I as a person find it hard to call someone one of the best when they haven't won it all. Winning it all proves you are the best.

It's just a rule I have. I mean this counts for all sports.

I'm reading an NBA Top 50 book right now (very indepth). When you look at alll the legends who haven't won a ring, they just can't be ranked that high because of it. Karl Malone for example could be ranked easily in the top 10 IF he won that ring. The problem is he didn't, so he's ranked down in 17. I know this is just a writer writing it, but I agree with him.

All I'm saying is that in my opinion, you need to win a rank to be truley legendary.


You have some tough standards my friend. Put Elway, Marino, Brady, or Montana on the Kansas City Cheifs teams the last 10 years and they never win a championship. I think that the NFL has too many factors to group it in with other sports as far as team accomplishments go. In your top 50 NBA book they mark Malone down for not winning a championship, but he only had to work with 10 other guys to get one. In the NFL, it's a whole lot more. We'll agree to disagree on this one.:D

Retired_Member_001
05-09-2008, 04:45 PM
You have some tough standards my friend. Put Elway, Marino, Brady, or Montana on the Kansas City Cheifs teams the last 10 years and they never win a championship. I think that the NFL has too many factors to group it in with other sports as far as team accomplishments go. In your top 50 NBA book they mark Malone down for not winning a championship, but he only had to work with 10 other guys to get one. In the NFL, it's a whole lot more. We'll agree to disagree on this one.:D

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I mean the guys you mention are legendary, it's just hard for me to call them LEGENDARY when they haven't won a ring.

topscribe
05-09-2008, 04:48 PM
I can seriously understand your reasoning. I mean it's not a rule I like, it's I as a person find it hard to call someone one of the best when they haven't won it all. Winning it all proves you are the best.

It's just a rule I have. I mean this counts for all sports.

I'm reading an NBA Top 50 book right now (very indepth). When you look at alll the legends who haven't won a ring, they just can't be ranked that high because of it. Karl Malone for example could be ranked easily in the top 10 IF he won that ring. The problem is he didn't, so he's ranked down in 17. I know this is just a writer writing it, but I agree with him.

All I'm saying is that in my opinion, you need to win a rank to be truley legendary.

Wook, this may be true in tennis, bowling, or golf. But the reason athletes
such as Ziggy cited, in addition to those I cited . . . some who never won
any kind of championship . . . are universally recognized as legends is
because those "in the know" understand it is a team sport.

I might throw in such illuminaries as Dan Fouts, Lance Alworth, Floyd Little,
Larry Wilson, Jim Kelly . . . well the list goes on and on. Check out all the
members of the HOF, and you'll see what I mean.

Moreover, basketball is entirely different than football. First, you have only
four other guys who affect your chances of a championship. In football, you
have 21 others, and that includes only the starters (not including STs).
Football is replete with legends who never won a championship. As I said,
review the HOF. Every one of those players is considered a legend, or he
would not be there.

-----

Acedude
05-11-2008, 03:21 PM
2005 was a C. You have to factor in Cutler as has been pointed out above, all the maneuvering led to Cutler. Darrent was a good pick, exactly what you hope for from a 2nd rounder. A solid contributor, good for a couple TD's a year. May God rest his soul. He was a strong, happy kid, exactly the kind of man you want on your team.

Foxworth I thought had potential, he did play for Champ at LCB that first year, had a few INT's. Since then it seems like since he couldn't start, he's not giving it his all. He needs a new start somewhere else, he won't be a Bronco after this year.

Paymah I'm not impressed with. I saw him get totally blocked out of running plays last year, just flat out dominated by WR's. No heart.

Myers was a good pick, I'm not sure why they let him go. Most likely they already had the Lichtenstiger kid targeted already and were sure they could get him with that shoulder injury, and were happy to get a sixth.

Ernster is still in the League, seemed to freeze up under the lights.

Clarett was Bobby Turner's pick, he wanted to give the kid a chance, Shanny gave it to him. In fact, that whole draft was assistant coaches picking guys they liked. Jimmy Spencer said after that draft that Foxworth was the guy he wanted. That was the last time Bowlen allowed that to happen. It's funny in a way how the FO has developed in the past few years. Bowlen said after that 2005 draft that he thought his FO and draft stategy was the best he'd had since he'd been the owner. My, how things change.

Lonestar
05-11-2008, 03:41 PM
2005 was a C. You have to factor in Cutler as has been pointed out above, all the maneuvering led to Cutler. Darrent was a good pick, exactly what you hope for from a 2nd rounder. A solid contributor, good for a couple TD's a year. May God rest his soul. He was a strong, happy kid, exactly the kind of man you want on your team.

Foxworth I thought had potential, he did play for Champ at LCB that first year, had a few INT's. Since then it seems like since he couldn't start, he's not giving it his all. He needs a new start somewhere else, he won't be a Bronco after this year.

Paymah I'm not impressed with. I saw him get totally blocked out of running plays last year, just flat out dominated by WR's. No heart.

Myers was a good pick, I'm not sure why they let him go. Most likely they already had the Lichtenstiger kid targeted already and were sure they could get him with that shoulder injury, and were happy to get a sixth.

Ernster is still in the League, seemed to freeze up under the lights.

Clarett was Bobby Turner's pick, he wanted to give the kid a chance, Shanny gave it to him. In fact, that whole draft was assistant coaches picking guys they liked. Jimmy Spencer said after that draft that Foxworth was the guy he wanted. That was the last time Bowlen allowed that to happen. It's funny in a way how the FO has developed in the past few years. Bowlen said after that 2005 draft that he thought his FO and draft stategy was the best he'd had since he'd been the owner. My, how things change.

I have no reason to doubt your word But I have never seen this comment before. I do live out of the broadcast area so do not hear 98% of the talk show stuff or see the papers from there. so could have easliy missed it..

DO you have a link?

Nickademus
05-11-2008, 04:23 PM
2005 was a decent year for us considering we jumped the gun on 3 cb's after the colts torched us again in the playoffs. Paymah could turn into a decent CB but this year is the last year you can say that otherwise you just have to call him what he is....... a nickel back. Foxy is a jack of all trades master of none. He had a decent rookie year and some bright spots here and there but he could use time at one possition. Durrant was alot like Bly flashy and energetic but to many risks, the only difference was Durrant was a heck of a return man when he was able to stay healthy doing it. Clarett was a flyer Shanny couldn't resist and I hated the choice at the time. Myers was another solid late round lineman that could have developed into a decent utility guy but since we have a better version in Kuper a 6th was decent value. Earnster never really caught on and I wish we would have taken Crosby lastyear but oh well it will get fixed one way or another. I dont think you can look at this draft without the trade that we made for the extra first in 2006 which eventually became cutler so with that in mind I would say this year was a solid B.

Acedude
05-11-2008, 05:05 PM
I can seriously understand your reasoning. I mean it's not a rule I like, it's I as a person find it hard to call someone one of the best when they haven't won it all. Winning it all proves you are the best.

It's just a rule I have. I mean this counts for all sports.

I'm reading an NBA Top 50 book right now (very indepth). When you look at alll the legends who haven't won a ring, they just can't be ranked that high because of it. Karl Malone for example could be ranked easily in the top 10 IF he won that ring. The problem is he didn't, so he's ranked down in 17. I know this is just a writer writing it, but I agree with him.

All I'm saying is that in my opinion, you need to win a rank to be truley legendary.

Seems like you're a guy that buys into front-running. Flavor-of-the-day kind of guy. If you don't win it all, then maybe you suck, certainly there's a question about your talent. I don't buy that.

Acedude
05-11-2008, 05:42 PM
I have no reason to doubt your word But I have never seen this comment before. I do live out of the broadcast area so do not hear 98% of the talk show stuff or see the papers from there. so could have easliy missed it..

DO you have a link?

No link. Bowlen did say that though on local TV media in one of his rare apppearances on TV. I remember it clearly because at the time I thought it was an OK draft coming on the heels of the Shoate, Brandon swings and misses the year before, the Eric Brown and Kennedy misses, Pierce, Eason, toviessi. I don't know if what Bowlen said made it into print. Spencer said that on draft day on TV walking out of Dove Valley right after the draft. I never saw it in print, it was on the local TV news. Turner came out in print saying he wanted Clarett and that was his pick.

Bowlen was a happy guy after that 2005 draft. That was the same year Shanny had sat down two days after the 2004 season and said, "We're only a couple guys away." Circumstances caught up with both of them. Invesco wasn't the same as Mile High, things pretty much fell apart, losing record at home after that, deaths, haven't heard much from Bowlen since until this offseason.

WTH, the team is retooling from top to bottom, they're making a push to be elite. Bowlen and Shanny have taken some body shots lately that they just weren't used to, they had never been hit hard like that before locally.

The Colorado State Legislature tried to take away the Bronco's ability to deny a season-ticket holders rights if they sold their tickets. Bowlen is under fire, same with Shanny. Those two are responding, there's no doubt they're competitors. You're seeing the new Broncos organization right now.

LoyalSoldier
05-11-2008, 06:38 PM
If I remember correctly that wasn't a very exciting draft class for anyone. That is why we traded our first round that year to the Redskins since there was going to be better talent the follow seasons. Knowing that I still give it a passing grade as ok, but not amazing.

I think out of the whole draft only a few selections stand out such as Frank Gore or Barber.

TXBRONC
05-11-2008, 07:53 PM
If I remember correctly that wasn't a very exciting draft class for anyone. That is why we traded our first round that year to the Redskins since there was going to be better talent the follow seasons. Knowing that I still give it a passing grade as ok, but not amazing.

I think out of the whole draft only a few selections stand out such as Frank Gore or Barber.

I think that's fair.

56crash
05-11-2008, 11:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAHTAm6b67s&feature=related

56crash
05-11-2008, 11:45 PM
I guess I should warn you guys that don't like ladies half nude talking about the broncos dont click the link:lol:

Bronco Yoda
05-12-2008, 02:57 PM
C- ...-... -...

(and thats with wearing my orange tinted glasses and accounting for the lack of picks.)