PFW's TWWHI

[TXBRONC]

Here's the lastest from PFW and there thoughts on why Denver didn't do any wheeling and dealing. Yes it's no shock that Shanahan has the final say but if PFW is right Sundquist actually had a huge influence on how the Broncos rosters were put together over the years. He wasn't just a "yes" man as some have claimed in the past.

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/AFC/AFC+West/Denver/WWHI/2008/wwhi050208.htm

Denver takes low-key approach on Draft Day without Sundquist

May 2, 2008

NFL teams pulled off a record 34 trades on draft weekend, but the Broncos didn’t make a single swap, which surprised a source familiar with the franchise. Denver had built a reputation as being one of the more active clubs during the draft, trading up four spots to select QB Jay Cutler and dealing a second-round pick to acquire WR Javon Walker in ’06. One reason for the lack of activity this year may have been the absence of former GM Ted Sundquist, who was fired in March after 16 years with the team. Though he was billed as second fiddle to the main decision maker, head coach Mike Shanahan, we hear Sundquist was very good at working other clubs and getting potential deals finalized. The Broncos finally filled the vacancy Sundquist left in the front office, hiring Brian Xanders as assistant GM this week, according to reports. Xanders served as the Falcons’ primary contract negotiator for the past two seasons and also has experience as a personnel analyst. He, along with Jim and Jeff Goodman, will be Shanahan’s top assistants, though the head coach still has the final say on every decision.

[joshxhannah]

this is true... but they did finalize one deal before the draft to get robertson...

[TXBRONC]

this is true... but they did finalize one deal before the draft to get robertson...

I think they were meaning swaps that took place on draft day i.e. Javon Walker.

[joshxhannah]

I think were meaning swaps that took place on draft day i.e. Javon Walker.

I realize that, but i dont see a difference between a trade that takes place one or two days before draft day and a draft day trade... it's all trades...

[Scarface]

Or maybe it was the simple fact we normally don't select that high in RD1. I think they're over thinking things.

[TXBRONC]

Or maybe it was the simple fact we normally don't select that high in RD1. I think they're over thinking things.

That's certainly possible that the Broncos over thought themselves on numerous occasions.

[Scarface]

That's certainly possible that the Broncos over thought themselves on numerous occasions.

Not with the 12th pick.

[Ziggy]

No trading was a no-brainer in the first round. They wanted Clady all along and he was there at 12.

[Lonestar]

Sounds to me like the other teams were comfortable talking to TED, perhaps they do not have warm and fuzzies for someone/anyone else yet..

Yet all the final decisions are made by mikey..


Maybe it is because they did not have their normal guy to talk to and a tighter time frame, less than ten minutes for each choice. To make a decision DEN was bypassed more so than other teams..

Since the clock started ticking the second the choice was made and in many cases the choice was not read until 1-3 minutes were already off the clock.. Whereas in years past I think the clock started ticking when the choice was read and they said Den is on the clock.. I could be wrong about this but losing 5 full minutes on each First round choice had to impact them somewhat I do not remember for sure but it seemed like day one choices were all longer than 5 minutes like this years second round.

[WARHORSE]

Sounds to me like the other teams were comfortable talking to TED, perhaps they do not have warm and fuzzies for someone/anyone else yet..

Yet all the final decisions are made by mikey..


Maybe it is because they did not have their normal guy to talk to and a tighter time frame, less than ten minutes for each choice. To make a decision DEN was bypassed more so than other teams..

Since the clock started ticking the second the choice was made and in many cases the choice was not read until 1-3 minutes were already off the clock.. Whereas in years past I think the clock started ticking when the choice was read and they said Den is on the clock.. I could be wrong about this but losing 5 full minutes on each First round choice had to impact them somewhat I do not remember for sure but it seemed like day one choices were all longer than 5 minutes like this years second round.


15 years in the biz.........you build relationships. Things get done quickly and with less hassle when dealing with a known partner.

[Lonestar]

15 years in the biz.........you build relationships. Things get done quickly and with less hassle when dealing with a known partner.


Exactly I've heard that they trusted him, the other teams liked dealing with him..

[WARHORSE]

Exactly I've heard that they trusted him, the other teams liked dealing with him..


Yup.

Downside to that is..........you possibly start thinkin its all about you. Put two guys who have had success and like to do things their own way in the same office......sparks are bound to fly.

Too bad. They were on a roll.

[TXBRONC]

Well Shanahan said he had offers to trade down but obviously he turned them down.

[silkamilkamonico]

So it was Sundquist always losing us picks, and not Shanahan possibly.....

[TXBRONC]

So it was Sundquist always losing us picks, and not Shanahan possibly.....

I guess that's what it would mean.

[Lonestar]

So it was Sundquist always losing us picks, and not Shanahan possibly.....


What it means is any trades were done with mikeys OK.. SO if you wish to place blame it is on mikeys shoulders..

[omac]

There are always risks in trading up or trading down.

Some thought it was a huge reach to move up to get Jarvis Moss. Denver's thinking was that 2 of the 3 guys they were targetting were no longer on the board. A lot of people said Moss would've still been on the board, but truth is, we'd never know. Had Denver stayed put that time, a similar situation could've happened to them that happened to Cincy this season, losing a chance at Ellis, Gholston, and Harvey, and having to pick Keith Rivers instead. After Ellis and Gholston were taken, they probably expected to take Harvey, but instead, Jacsonville jumped one spot in front of them to take him.

Some trade downs work out, and some not as much; Houston traded down for value, believing they could get a quality OT later, but when there was a run on the OT's, they had to trade back up and reach for one that most said isn't a legitimate first rounder. Had they stayed put, they could've gotten a premiere OT to protect their QB and for their rushing game.

Trading up or down always has risks, and some deals look better than others, but ofcourse in hindsight, every fan is a genius. :D

[omac]

What it means is any trades were done with mikeys OK.. SO if you wish to place blame it is on mikeys shoulders..

I don't like putting blame on Shanny, but this statement is true. In the end, Shanny has to ok the deal.

I'm just speculating, but maybe Shanny has the final say on who to get and what deals to make to get them, based on the options presented to him. With the firing of Sundquist, maybe Shanny thought someone else could provide him with better options to choose from.

[Lonestar]

I don't like putting blame on Shanny, but this statement is true. In the end, Shanny has to ok the deal.

I'm just speculating, but maybe Shanny has the final say on who to get and what deals to make to get them, based on the options presented to him. With the firing of Sundquist, maybe Shanny thought someone else could provide him with better options to choose from.

I think what happened was this year there was alot less chit chat between other teams and ours.. Because of the change at almost the last minute.. Many deals may have been lost that were gentleman's agreements already kind of laid out..

I think that in the past teams would call and ask about this player or that.. Ted being a pretty good filter for what mikey wanted or not.. If he thought it was something to talk about he'd say hold ONE and talk it over with mikey who would say lets talk more or get the **** out of here..

It takes time to build a relationship with other GM's. I know it takes time to build trust with them..Something that our newbies probably did not have time to do before the draft..

I remember hearing that most of the deals were fleshed out before the draft started with the different GM's Immediately in front of and behind the two talking. talking to each other doing lots of what ifs..

Most of the real players have a good idea what the various teams are looking to do..
Are you interested in my slot if we give you this? Type of chats..

the bungals got hosed at least twice this year..

[omac]

I think what happened was this year there was alot less chit chat between other teams and ours.. Because of the change at almost the last minute.. Many deals may have been lost that were gentleman's agreements already kind of laid out..

I think that in the past teams would call and ask about this player or that.. Ted being a pretty good filter for what mikey wanted or not.. If he thought it was something to talk about he'd say hold ONE and talk it over with mikey who would say lets talk more or get the **** out of here..

It takes time to build a relationship with other GM's. I know it takes time to build trust with them..Something that our newbies probably did not have time to do before the draft..

I remember hearing that most of the deals were fleshed out before the draft started with the different GM's Immediately in front of and behind the two talking. talking to each other doing lots of what ifs..

Most of the real players have a good idea what the various teams are looking to do..
Are you interested in my slot if we give you this? Type of chats..

the bungals got hosed at least twice this year..

I could see that happening. Some teams worked out draft position trade scenarios with each other before the draft, knowing they had very little time during the draft, and it's quite possible that Ted did the same. I'm not ecstatic about our 2nd round pick, nor am I disgusted with it; it fills a definite need for the team with usually the worst average starting field position, but I wanted to go defense. With position, I'd just rather we found a way to jump back into the 1st round and nab DT Balmer, or at worst get Mendenhall. That sacrifice to get back into the 1st would've made a lot of sense.

On the Bengals, they missed their chance at big impact players in Ellis and Gholston. All in all, though, I really think they need a new head coach. They got rid of Henry because of character issues, yet picked up 1 or 2 character issue guys in the draft. Top it off, the best WR in the team is not happy, and they'd rather he sit it out instead of entertaining trades which could make their team better. Lewis doesn't seem to know how to keep his ball club together.

[Lonestar]

I could see that happening. Some teams worked out draft position trade scenarios with each other before the draft, knowing they had very little time during the draft, and it's quite possible that Ted did the same. I'm not ecstatic about our 2nd round pick, nor am I disgusted with it; it fills a definite need for the team with usually the worst average starting field position, but I wanted to go defense. With position, I'd just rather we found a way to jump back into the 1st round and nab DT Balmer, or at worst get Mendenhall. That sacrifice to get back into the 1st would've made a lot of sense.

On the Bengals, they missed their chance at big impact players in Ellis and Gholston. All in all, though, I really think they need a new head coach. They got rid of Henry because of character issues, yet picked up 1 or 2 character issue guys in the draft. Top it off, the best WR in the team is not happy, and they'd rather he sit it out instead of entertaining trades which could make their team better. Lewis doesn't seem to know how to keep his ball club together.

I think lewis is a good coach I'm not so sure about the players though. I think most that they have had issues with he inherited although not totally sure of that.. Could be the water also..

Remember that franchise has been so screwed up for so long for the longest time they lost more top five players because the owners were cheap..

They finally started to turn the corner when they hired Lewis.. The owners made a commitment to not always being under the cap..

But lately it could be the coach being so lenient or the water..

[omac]

I think lewis is a good coach I'm not so sure about the players though. I think most that they have had issues with he inherited although not totally sure of that.. Could be the water also..

Remember that franchise has been so screwed up for so long for the longest time they lost more top five players because the owners were cheap..

They finally started to turn the corner when they hired Lewis.. The owners made a commitment to not always being under the cap..

But lately it could be the coach being so lenient or the water..

Lewis had an okay run, but I think it's time to bring in someone who can instill some discipline, and who the players can respect. And that issue of not trading Chad Johnson ..... yes, they are trying to prove a point, but that would've been a more ideal situation than KC trading Allen, and look at what KC got in the draft. They might've been able to get some picks or players they needed. Instead, they continue to hold on to a grumpy receiver. IMO, Chad or Marvin, one of them has to go, and I think the smarter cut would be Marvin.

[Lonestar]

Lewis had an okay run, but I think it's time to bring in someone who can instill some discipline, and who the players can respect. And that issue of not trading Chad Johnson ..... yes, they are trying to prove a point, but that would've been a more ideal situation than KC trading Allen, and look at what KC got in the draft. They might've been able to get some picks or players they needed. Instead, they continue to hold on to a grumpy receiver. IMO, Chad or Marvin, one of them has to go, and I think the smarter cut would be Marvin.

Maybe your right I saw good things out of the bungals till palmer broke his leg.. chad is a punk IMO no loss but they must like him..

[omac]

Maybe your right I saw good things out of the bungals till palmer broke his leg.. chad is a punk IMO no loss but they must like him..

Yeah, the Bengals looked to be a real dangerous team for a while. Even the following season right after Palmer broke his leg, he still played real well. Chad is a punk, but he's always given them his best, even when he was at odds with them. So as a professional, he's been professional.

[Simple Jaded]

Firing the man that was mainly responsible for one of the few things Denver has been good at the last five years doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in Mike Shanahan.

Nor does the revelation of Sundquist's being a real GM coinciding with the franchises improvement in drafting.

If Sundquist had a lot to do with the improvement in personnel (Especially Cutler), he should have been given a promotion, not his walking papers......

[JoeF]

Well Shanahan said he had offers to trade down but obviously he turned them down.


Shanahan was also very clear that he had actually targeted both the day one picks and was thrilled they were nabbed.

Plus, he held tight and in the eleventh hour before the draft compensated the Jets with an '09 pick with contingencies, versus various '08 pick possibilities. Perhaps DeWayne Robertson will make him look like one smart sum-*****.

Too soon to tell if the overall leadership of Shanahan, working with the three guys now holding key spots in player personel (regardless of what titles accompany their names) is worse-off than the prior setup or actually lots better.

[TXBRONC]

I don't like putting blame on Shanny, but this statement is true. In the end, Shanny has to ok the deal.

I'm just speculating, but maybe Shanny has the final say on who to get and what deals to make to get them, based on the options presented to him. With the firing of Sundquist, maybe Shanny thought someone else could provide him with better options to choose from.

But if you put guy into a position to be the point man aren't you going to trust they they working the best deals possible?

Shanahan is no different than any other coach in wanting to have a say in personnel matters. Even control freaks like Shanahan and Parcells have people that they trust.

[omac]

But if you put guy into a position to be the point man aren't you going to trust they they working the best deals possible?

Shanahan is no different than any other coach in wanting to have a say in personnel matters. Even control freaks like Shanahan and Parcells have people that they trust.

Yeah I agree with you. Maybe somewhere along the way, Shanny no longer trusted the judgement of Ted.

[atwater27]

I don't mind that we didn't trade.... I just minded the quality DT's, LB's and safeties we left on the board while we were busy getting corners, receivers and fullbacks.

[TXBRONC]

I don't mind that we didn't trade.... I just minded the quality DT's, LB's and safeties we left on the board while we were busy getting corners, receivers and fullbacks.

I would guess trading for Robertson impacted the view of defensive tackles in this draft. We did bring in one and I know its not a lot there may have be better defensive tackles at the time but this guy at least has the credentials as a run stuffer. For that matter I would guess that they felt they had addressed linebacker and safety sufficiently through free agency.

[Lonestar]

Firing the man that was mainly responsible for one of the few things Denver has been good at the last five years doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in Mike Shanahan.

Nor does the revelation of Sundquist's being a real GM coinciding with the franchises improvement in drafting.

If Sundquist had a lot to do with the improvement in personnel (Especially Cutler), he should have been given a promotion, not his walking papers......

I think Ted was more liaison than a real GM.. Not saying he did not learn anything from mikey + and -, but I truly believe it was more a telephone gofer that Ted played..

Mikey would say hey I saw a guy I like talk to them and see what the asking price is..

I did not for one minute believe that Ted had authority to make deals for personnel or during the draft.. I believe that ted was listened to just like any other coach I believe that Ted had lots of contacts that mikey did not have time to develop because he is so busy overseeing everything.. While he may delegate he also has to keep tabs on what was done and what was not..

I'm not remotely saying he was out only mouthpiece into all of the other FO's in the NFL but I think he was respected by them all and had access when they needed it..

I suspect that if mikey would call someone they would not put him on hold, but I'll bet that Ted did most of the mundane calling..

I think the improvement in the drafting was more listening to the position coaches and coordinators with less overlording form mikey..

We all know that mikey would have never dedicated 3 of four picks last year to the DL, if Bates did not have a huge say in who was picked..

I also believe the Dinger had a huge part in drafting Cutler although many want to believe that it was because he was "found" by our head scout.. With Jay living and playing 20 miles from where Dinger was working. I fail to believe he was not heavily involved in the research and a huge reason he is in DEN. While mikey might believe his head scout, I think the word of an old college roommate and former associate coach would carry more weight..

Yes I know that Jeff Fischer had good thing so say also.. BUT see above about Dinger.

[Dean]

I don't mind that we didn't trade.... I just minded the quality DT's, LB's and safeties we left on the board while we were busy getting corners, receivers and fullbacks.


I am not in 100% agreement with Shanahan's draft but give credit where credit is due. He made an honest attempt to fill our needs without substantial reaches. The receiver that we took in the second round was picked to fill two needs- a receiver to stretch the field and a return man. Which DT, LB, or safety could do that?

IMO he felt that the acquisition of DT, safety, and LB had already been shored up in free agency. Robertson pushed a DT pick behind several other positions in terms of need. I would have liked to have picked a Red Bryant or the like but at least Shanahan didn't ignore our interior D-line. His signing of multiple safeties and linebackers moved those positions back as need picks as well. We won't know whether these pick-ups can fill the bill until they start playing with live ammo.

As drafts go, I thought this one has a good chance that after 3 years we will look back at it and it will be graded as a strong group of choices. :beer:

[Poindexter]

I really don't think we have seen enough from last years draft to say for sure one way, or the other if it was bad moving up on our part.

Rookie players seldom contribute much to a team right out of the gate and in the case of Moss he spent the better part of last season injured. I expect he and Thomas will see more time on the field this season and they may turn out to be more productive. What little I saw of Moss last season before his injury was mostly all positive.

As for this years draft it is still way too early to tell. Strictly in my opinion I feel that we had a good draft. I believe we got a lot of good, strong charactered talent at a discount.

[TXBRONC]

I am not in 100% agreement with Shanahan's draft but give credit where credit is due. He made an honest attempt to fill our needs without substantial reaches. The receiver that we took in the second round was picked to fill two needs- a receiver to stretch the field and a return man. Which DT, LB, or safety could do that?

IMO he felt that the acquisition of DT, safety, and LB had already been shored up in free agency. Robertson pushed a DT pick behind several other positions in terms of need. I would have liked to have picked a Red Bryant or the like but at least Shanahan didn't ignore our interior D-line. His signing of multiple safeties and linebackers moved those positions back as need picks as well. We won't know whether these pick-ups can fill the bill until they start playing with live ammo.

As drafts go, I thought this one has a good chance that after 3 years we will look back at it and it will be graded as a strong group of choices. :beer:

I couldn't agree more. In fact when we signed Robertson I was fairly certain that if Shanahan was going to address defensive tackle in this draft it would be until the second day.