Sitting On It For A Few Days, We Did Good Getting A Franchise QB @ 25 Overall

[getlynched47]

Yes, I said Franchise Quarterback. Let me start this off by saying that I was totally opposed to getting Tim Tebow in the first 2 rounds of the NFL draft. I even went as far to make this:

http://i44.tinypic.com/1z17haf.png
Big picture, so I won't post it up. But feel free to check it out.

I was so pissed when we grabbed Tim Tebow in the 1st round. I was so pissed when I found out what we gave up to get him. I was so pissed with everything surrounding the situation. And now, I'm getting comfortable with it.

We got a franchise quarterback with the 25th overall pick in the NFL draft!

I know what you're thinking, "Tim Tebow is not a franchise QB!"

Really? Well, I'm not going to use the definition of franchise quarterback according to Cutler fans (I, myself, am one of them). I'm going to use the real one.

A franchise quarterback is the face of the franchise. They represent everything that an organization stands for. They have an excellent attitude, they lead by example, and they're winners. Tim Tebow meets all of these criteria, along with having outstanding athleticism for a big guy AND having intangibles that are off the charts. I have never seen a player, other than Brian Dawkins, with the intangibles that Tim Tebow has.

Tim Tebow is now the face of this franchise, whether he starts this year or not. He won a lot of games in college, even when people were doubting him and his success when he went into the SEC from high school. He proved them wrong.

Now, scouts are talking shit about Tebow and that he's not going to be a good quarterback. Tebow is going to prove them wrong. Not because of Josh McDaniels, I don't like the guy and I don't have to, but because of the work ethic and amazing skillset of a franchise quarterback that Tim Tebow possesses.

Not only is he a GREAT role model, he will represent the Denver Broncos franchise like no other player has been able to do. He gives us a great image, and he will also lead us on the field when his time comes.

Just the progress that Tebow made in such a short period of time is extremely promising. Also, after A LOT of research, I'm convinced that he's not as flawed as the "experts" are making him out to be.

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=5118225

Check this clip out if you get a chance. The only thing that Tim Tebow needs to work on is reading defenses and going through progressions much more quickly. He can learn that. His athletic gifts and intangibles can't be taught.

TIM TEBOW IS A FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK.

Bash away guys. Like I said, I was a hater of the pick. But after listening to Tebow, and after doing research on the kid, and after sitting and thinking really really hard about the Tim Tebow pick, I'm convinced that we got ourselves a steal. :salute:

(If you asked me two days ago, I would have never said any of this :lol:)

If you made it through this entire thing, kudos to you and thanks for reading.

[Italianmobstr7]

Phenomenal post. I was happy after we got Tebow and I've done the same thing you have. Listened to all his interviews, watched highlights and lowlight on him. He WILL be our franchise QB. Maybe he won't start this year but he will next year. He's a freak of am athlete and has intangibles out of this world. He gives us a great image and he's been a great player. He has very good arm strength and his completion percentage speaks or his accuracy. He's going to take all the crap that sportswriters and haters the world over are saying and he's going to throw it right back in their faces. I'm PROUD to have Tim Tebow as the face of our franchise.

[Tned]

Tim Tebow first has to win the starting job, before you can even discuss whether he is a 'franchise' QB. There is a lot of question about whether he is NFL material, not to mention whether or not he can be a good or elite QB.

I certainly hope so, but us talking him up and convincing ourselves he will be great, doesn't mean diddly in terms of what he will do on the field -- if he ever does anything on the field.

Personally, I think it was a good pick, and worth the risk. I have been on the record many times saying that this team needs a long-term solution at QB and Orton is not that QB. I think his combination of physical talent and attitude made it a risk worth taking. While there are a lot of if's, IF:

Tebow, Thomas and Moreno all pan out, they can form a great nucleus for our skill positions, to go along with Royal and maybe Decker. If a couple of the linemen drafted work out, they could form a good line along with Harris and Clady (Beadle could replace Harris) to block for those skill guys. There are a lot of "ifs", but also some decent upside.

As to the price for Tebow, that's overblown. By all accounts, McDaniels was targeting Thomas and Tebow. He traded back several times, collecting picks, before essentially using those picks to move back up. He started with a first, two seconds, a third and a fourth, and he after all the trading wound up with two firsts, a second and two thirds. Therefore, you cannot argue the price for Tebow was high, since he essentially gave a first and a second to get both Tebow and Thomas.

[Northman]

Oh boy.

[getlynched47]

Oh boy.

Here me out, bro.

I'm talking about Tebow man, not McDaniels.

I hate McDaniels. The only time I almost started to like him was after our 6-0 start, and that faded really quickly.

There's just something about Tim Tebow that sets him apart from the Ryan Leaf's, JaMarcus Russell's, Alex Smith's, David Carr's, etc.

Tebow does not see failure as an option, and I believe him. I have a great bullshit detector, and it doesn't go crazy when Tebow talks about his passion and love for the game, and his work ethic. I truly believe that Tebow will work out, with McDaniels or without McDaniels. I could care less.

If Tebow busts, well at least he left the franchise with a new identity and character. Tebow is unique, and there isn't any player out there like him. He lives and breathes to succeed.

[Northman]

Here me out, bro.

I'm talking about Tebow man, not McDaniels.

I hate McDaniels. The only time I almost started to like him was after our 6-0 start, and that faded really quickly.

There's just something about Tim Tebow that sets him apart from the Ryan Leaf's, JaMarcus Russell's, Alex Smith's, David Carr's, etc.

Tebow does not see failure as an option, and I believe him. I have a great bullshit detector, and it doesn't go crazy when Tebow talks about his passion and love for the game, and his work ethic. I truly believe that Tebow will work out, with McDaniels or without McDaniels. I could care less.

If Tebow busts, well at least he left the franchise with a new identity and character. Tebow is unique, and there isn't any player out there like him. He lives and breathes to succeed.

Nah, i hear ya man but i LOATHE it when someone puts somebody on a pedestal like that when said player hasnt even taken a snap yet. Timmy has a lot of great qualities as a individual and character guy. But man, i can point to MANY players who believe in themselves just as much and fall short because of one thing or another. I understand its your opinion and thats fine with me but all i can do is just shake my head for now. Over the course of the years ive learned that no matter what player i may like or feel is going to be good or great it doesnt always transpire that way until that person actually hits the field. Obviously, i dont feel the same way you do in terms of his success in the NFL but if he succeeds than good for him and whatever team he is a part of. But, this guy is a project and if he was taken in the 4th or 5th round i probably wouldnt be so negative on us taking him. But, using a first round pick on him means that this guy should be starting from day 1. When you draft Qb's in the first round (as most players) those are the ones that are supposed to help your team immediately. Even most of the pundits who like the pick say he is not NFL ready yet in terms of his mechanics, etc. It isnt the guy im necessarily upset with its just where we took him.

[silkamilkamonico]

He has an it factor. People were mocking Vince Young, but he's proved a lot of people wrong. He that it factor as well.

[Northman]

They said that about Mike Vick too.

[getlynched47]

Nah, i hear ya man but i LOATHE it when someone puts somebody on a pedestal like that when said player hasnt even taken a snap yet. Timmy has a lot of great qualities as a individual and character guy. But man, i can point to MANY players who believe in themselves just as much and fall short because of one thing or another. I understand its your opinion and thats fine with me but all i can do is just shake my head for now. Over the course of the years ive learned that no matter what player i may like or feel is going to be good or great it doesnt always transpire that way until that person actually hits the field. Obviously, i dont feel the same way you do in terms of his success in the NFL but if he succeeds than good for him and whatever team he is a part of. But, this guy is a project and if he was taken in the 4th or 5th round i probably wouldnt be so negative on us taking him. But, using a first round pick on him means that this guy should be starting from day 1. When you draft Qb's in the first round (as most players) those are the ones that are supposed to help your team immediately. Even most of the pundits who like the pick say he is not NFL ready yet in terms of his mechanics, etc. It isnt the guy im necessarily upset with its just where we took him.

I understand man. I felt EXACTLY the same way. You can cycle through all of my "No Tebow in the 1st" posts, and I shared the same sentiments with you.

Although I disagree on the 1st round QB's should help your team immediately thing. Many many NFL teams sit their quarterbacks and don't start them from day 1. It stunts the progress of most quarterbacks if you start them from day 1. Just because a quarterback won't start from day one does not mean that you should not spend a 1st round pick on them.

I tend to be on that "1st round picks must have an immediate impact" camp like yourself, but I make an exception in this case.

I don't know if I've ever seen a player so dedicated, passionate, confident, and just awesome (i can't think of a better word at 12:30 AM :lol:) than Tim Tebow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96vAbtpakLg

When this guy says he's going to do something, he does it. He delivers. He controls what he can, he destroys obstacles. He embraces challenges. He succeeds.

I have NEVER talked a player up like this before. Never. I just don't do it. But Tebow, man that kid is something special and I'm proud to have him representing our franchise. :salute::salute::salute:

[Northman]

Although I disagree on the 1st round QB's should help your team immediately thing. Many many NFL teams sit their quarterbacks and don't start them from day 1. It stunts the progress of most quarterbacks if you start them from day 1. Just because a quarterback won't start from day one does not mean that you should not spend a 1st round pick on them.




Sitting Qb's are fine but having seen some of the best QB's in the game who go on to win Championships they start from day 1. They dont always have great success but they do come out the gate swinging and if they are taken in the first round and "supposedly" that good like you state about Tebow there is no reason to me why he shouldnt be starting. My opinion of course. :D

[Tned]

Sitting Qb's are fine but having seen some of the best QB's in the game who go on to win Championships they start from day 1. They dont always have great success but they do come out the gate swinging and if they are taken in the first round and "supposedly" that good like you state about Tebow there is no reason to me why he shouldnt be starting. My opinion of course. :D

Palmer, who hasn't won a championship but was great prior to his injuries, sat his first year. Big Ben was going to sit his entire first year until an injury forced him in. Rivers as well (I don't think he played any his first year, unless Brees got hurt along the way).

A lot seems to depend on the team. Many coaches still seem to buy into the "let him hold a clipboard for a year" philosophy, but if you are coming off a 4 win season and have no prospects to compete, then there is a lot of pressure to let the kid learn on the job.

On the other hand when you are a .500 or so team, and have a veteran at QB (Cincy, Pitt, SD) then it is very common for first rounders to sit for a while.

There is no question that now, compared to 10-20 years ago, the money paid to QBs puts a lot of pressure on the GM/Coach to get them in quickly, but few actually produce as rookies and many feel that throwing them into the fire does more harm than good.

[getlynched47]

Sitting Qb's are fine but having seen some of the best QB's in the game who go on to win Championships they start from day 1. They dont always have great success but they do come out the gate swinging and if they are taken in the first round and "supposedly" that good like you state about Tebow there is no reason to me why he shouldnt be starting. My opinion of course. :D

Well I never stated that he's ready to go right off the bad. He has flaws and I admitted that, but I still believe he can be a long term answer at QB for us.

I will admit, you kinda stumped me on that one haha. Touché :werd:

[Northman]

Palmer, who hasn't won a championship but was great prior to his injuries, sat his first year. Big Ben was going to sit his entire first year until an injury forced him in. Rivers as well (I don't think he played any his first year, unless Brees got hurt along the way).

A lot seems to depend on the team. Many coaches still seem to buy into the "let him hold a clipboard for a year" philosophy, but if you are coming off a 4 win season and have no prospects to compete, then there is a lot of pressure to let the kid learn on the job.

On the other hand when you are a .500 or so team, and have a veteran at QB (Cincy, Pitt, SD) then it is very common for first rounders to sit for a while.

There is no question that now, compared to 10-20 years ago, the money paid to QBs puts a lot of pressure on the GM/Coach to get them in quickly, but few actually produce as rookies and many feel that throwing them into the fire does more harm than good.

Depends on the QB. Manning has been fine. Brees started for SD, sluggish at first but shined later on. Situation does play a part of it as we see Stafford starting for Detroit and we know Bradford will more than likely start for the Rams. Flacco was a starter from the get go and has done well. It really just comes down to Qb really and has nothing to really do with the team. Most great QB's first couple of years are not winning seasons but you already see what will make them great. Russell is not great. Leaf was not great. Etc. Some Qb's have the luxury to sit just because a team has vet at the spot but i still think the special QB's show what they got from day one. Even though Orton has experience i wouldnt say he is a scoring machine. If Tebow is to be better than he is lets see what he has. Either way, this team will be fielding a bunch of youngsters. Let the kid learn on the fly and see what specialness he has.

[Northman]

Well I never stated that he's ready to go right off the bad. He has flaws and I admitted that, but I still believe he can be a long term answer at QB for us.

I will admit, you kinda stumped me on that one haha. Touché :werd:

Nah, i never implied that you did so sorry if i made it sound like that. My point is generally the great QB's who are forced into day 1 starting jobs will show you right from the get go if they have the "it" factor that everyone likes throwing around lately.

[Ziggy]

Nah, i never implied that you did so sorry if i made it sound like that. My point is generally the great QB's who are forced into day 1 starting jobs will show you right from the get go if they have the "it" factor that everyone likes throwing around lately.

Except Elway. He played so poorly his first season that he got benched.

[Tned]

Depends on the QB. Manning has been fine. Brees started for SD, sluggish at first but shined later on. Situation does play a part of it as we see Stafford starting for Detroit and we know Bradford will more than likely start for the Rams. Flacco was a starter from the get go and has done well. It really just comes down to Qb really and has nothing to really do with the team. Most great QB's first couple of years are not winning seasons but you already see what will make them great. Russell is not great. Leaf was not great. Etc. Some Qb's have the luxury to sit just because a team has vet at the spot but i still think the special QB's show what they got from day one. Even though Orton has experience i wouldnt say he is a scoring machine. If Tebow is to be better than he is lets see what he has. Either way, this team will be fielding a bunch of youngsters. Let the kid learn on the fly and see what specialness he has.

With a few exceptions, I think the team has much more to do than the individual. Manning in NY, Rivers in SD, Palmer in Cincy, Big Ben in Pitt, just the ones off the top of my head. They were solid teams (.500 or so, maybe even a bit better) that had veteran QBs, but not stars, and the coaches chose to give their future start (in most cases highly drafted) a chance to learn, rather than being thrown to the wolves. I hesitated to throw out Cutler's name because of the lightening rod it is, but same with him.

Even if the Broncos had drafted Sam Bradford, chances are that Orton would start next year unless the kid just lit it up in TC and pre-season and gave the coach no choice but to start him.

Teams like Detroit, St. Louis, etc. are so bad, that they have nothing to lose and can look at the season as one long TC/pre-season, plus need the young QB to boost the fan base. Denver isn't in that spot. Tebow is a long term solution, not a short term fix.

[Northman]

Except Elway. He played so poorly his first season that he got benched.

But the following year..... :D

[Northman]

Tebow is a long term solution, not a short term fix.

Except of course we have to win now. :confused:

[Tned]

Except of course we have to win now. :confused:

:confused:

[Ziggy]

Tebow starts by mid season.

[Northman]

Tebow starts by mid season.

Sweet.

[silkamilkamonico]

Tebow starts by mid season.

That would suck because that mean's we'd be out of the playoff race by midseason.

If that's the case, McDaniels should be fired. It would be the worst season in Denver in almost 20 years.

[Ziggy]

That would suck because that mean's we'd be out of the playoff race by midseason.

If that's the case, McDaniels should be fired. It would be the worst season in Denver in almost 20 years.

Don't worry Silk. Other haters will come around and you won't have to go thread to thread being miserable all by yourself.

[xzn]

Nah, i hear ya man but i LOATHE it when someone puts somebody on a pedestal like that when said player hasnt even taken a snap yet. Timmy has a lot of great qualities as a individual and character guy. But man, i can point to MANY players who believe in themselves just as much and fall short because of one thing or another. I understand its your opinion and thats fine with me but all i can do is just shake my head for now. Over the course of the years ive learned that no matter what player i may like or feel is going to be good or great it doesnt always transpire that way until that person actually hits the field. Obviously, i dont feel the same way you do in terms of his success in the NFL but if he succeeds than good for him and whatever team he is a part of. But, this guy is a project and if he was taken in the 4th or 5th round i probably wouldnt be so negative on us taking him. But, using a first round pick on him means that this guy should be starting from day 1. When you draft Qb's in the first round (as most players) those are the ones that are supposed to help your team immediately. Even most of the pundits who like the pick say he is not NFL ready yet in terms of his mechanics, etc. It isnt the guy im necessarily upset with its just where we took him.

Northman, in general I respect your posts but the highlighted portion is not necessarily true at all. Too many first round qbs are "thrown to the wolves" right away and ruined to even name all of them ( e.g. David Carr etc.) Conversely, in recent years, guys like Carson Palmer and Donovan Mc Nabb have been eased into their inevitable starting roles with much greater success.

Hell, even JAE had to take a seat for a few games behind De Berg during the first half of his rookie year.

Besides all of this you are assuming that he won't contribute right away. Well, obviously that is yet to be determined... but even for the sake of discussion we assume that Orton or Quinn is the starter it is extremely reasonable to expect that Tebow will be an instant "starter" in our WILD HORSES formation, not to mention a massive upgrade. :cool:

At the very least T2 will be a major force on short yardage and goal line situations and could very well make some impactful throws. Meanwhile, as getlynched has articulated in the thread topic, he will be burning the proverbial midnight oil learning everything he needs to learn in order to fully take the reins of the offense.

Personally, I'm calling that he'll earn the full starting job late this year after it becomes clear that he is better than Brady and Orton isn't getting the job done. :coffee:

[Tned]

Tebow starts by mid season.

Let's hope not. Either he blows the doors off and starts game one, or hopefully is ready to go when '11 starts.

[BroncoBJ]

I've been happy with the pick and part of me really did wan't to get Tebow. I was hoping we'd end up with 2 1st round picks so we could end up grabbing him. But everyone already knows about his work ethic and all that stuff. Couldn't ask for a better person to be the face of our franchise. And I really believe he will work out as hard as he can to be the best that he can be.

He's always reminded me of a Tony Romo / Ben Roethlisberger type of player. He can move around, make plays, and make the opposing team hate him because you'll wonder " How did he do that" :lol:

The guy can definatly make plays with his feet and his arm. I'm happy to call him a Denver Bronco. Also kind of reminds me of Jay sometimes with his arm motion and how he slings the ball at times. Some people act like Tebow doesn't have that good of an arm but I've always thought he had a legit arm. I've seen him fling the ball like 55 yards down field like it was nothing. The kid is special and hates mediocrity.

You won't see him say " Oh well the Chargers lost also so losing today isn't that big of deal" .. If we lose to a team. I'm excited for the guy.

The only thing I've never liked about him is that hes left handed :lol: Never liked Left handed QB's.

But heres to Tebow being great :salute:

[Ziggy]

Let's hope not. Either he blows the doors off and starts game one, or hopefully is ready to go when '11 starts.

Orton deserves the first chance to start. It's hard for a rookie QB to learn a complex NFL system in camp and be ready for day 1. I think Orton starts week 1 and does well for a while. About the time our offense starts to bog down again, Tebow should be ready to come in and infuse some life into it.

A lot of the 'dink and dunk' plays last season were either check offs at the line by Orton, or just his refusal to look down the field. In fairness, some of those times were because he had no protection. Hopefully that will change this year, and we'll see what the true cause was. McD has invested too much into this offense now to let it hold this team back for long.

[silkamilkamonico]

Don't worry Silk. Other haters will come around and you won't have to go thread to thread being miserable all by yourself.

Well, at least you agree that if he's starting by mid season, it's because Denver is already out of the playoff race and McDaniels will be fired.

[Ziggy]

Well, at least you agree that if he's starting by mid season, it's because Denver is already out of the playoff race and McDaniels will be fired.

You have your own language Silk?

[silkamilkamonico]

Let's hope not. Either he blows the doors off and starts game one, or hopefully is ready to go when '11 starts.

With '11 looking more and more to be a lockout, I wonder if that can help Tebow get a year of grooming, or if the lack of real game speed will hurt.

[silkamilkamonico]

You have your own language Silk?

Argument spin #2. Care to try again at the initial comment?

[Tned]

With '11 looking more and more to be a lockout, I wonder if that can help Tebow get a year of grooming, or if the lack of real game speed will hurt.

As fans, I imagine we are all hoping it isn't a lockout. As to his progress, hard to imagine it will help. If there is a lockout, I imagine there will be little if any interaction between players and coaches, which would mean if he is going to progress, it would be with coaches he hires (like the work he is doing on his mechanics).

While I have nothing to base it on, I would think a year off would do him more harm than good.

[Ziggy]

Argument spin #2. Care to try again at the initial comment?

Nah, I'll let you go off on your tangents alone. They all seem to point to the same thing. I hope life gets better for ya buddy.

[xzn]

I will be absolutely shocked if T2 isn't playing in the first game as our Wild Horses "3 Back", which is essentially a single wing, I also agree with Ziggy's scenario of starting full time by sometime within his rookie year.

And, "no", silk it does not have to mean we are losing, it could just be that the offense is stagnant at some point and Josh feels that Tim is ready for primetime.

Josh will want him on that field ASAP but I think he's smart enough to break him in with a package that incorporates what we already run as far as wild horses along with elements of Urban Meyer's spread concepts that The Tebow-nator is already familiar with from his Gator days.

[Tned]

Orton deserves the first chance to start. It's hard for a rookie QB to learn a complex NFL system in camp and be ready for day 1. I think Orton starts week 1 and does well for a while. About the time our offense starts to bog down again, Tebow should be ready to come in and infuse some life into it.

A lot of the 'dink and dunk' plays last season were either check offs at the line by Orton, or just his refusal to look down the field. In fairness, some of those times were because he had no protection. Hopefully that will change this year, and we'll see what the true cause was. McD has invested too much into this offense now to let it hold this team back for long.

I don't buy into the 'deserves to start', just like I didn't think Bubby Brister deserved to start, or that Shanahan screwed Plummer by benching him for Cutler. I think if Orton is the better QB when the season starts (which I expect him to be) then he should start, if Tebow outplays him in TC and preseason, then he deserves to start. Same with Quinn.

[xzn]

There's what should happen and then there's what will happen.

Rightly or wrongly, Josh's ego will play a part in when Tebow gets on the field and also on when he becomes the starter. Note that I say "when" not "if".

I'll bet my signature for a month that Tebow is the starter by at the latest 2011.

As it relates to 2010 I think the timing of his introduction as the new starter will be contingent on how quickly Tim can assimilate the offense enough to be effective.

I wouldn't completely rule out him starting the season if Orton looks shaky at all in pre-season...

[Ziggy]

I don't buy into the 'deserves to start', just like I didn't think Bubby Brister deserved to start, or that Shanahan screwed Plummer by benching him for Cutler. I think if Orton is the better QB when the season starts (which I expect him to be) then he should start, if Tebow outplays him in TC and preseason, then he deserves to start. Same with Quinn.

I don't disagree TNed. I think the knowledge and experience in the system will give Orton the edge early and he'll start. Once Tebow catches up, he'll deserve to start. I just think that it will happen around mid season rather than in TC and preseason.

[Tned]

I don't disagree TNed. I think the knowledge and experience in the system will give Orton the edge early and he'll start. Once Tebow catches up, he'll deserve to start. I just think that it will happen around mid season rather than in TC and preseason.

It could, and McDaniels seems like he would be more open to a mid-season change than most coaches. Typically, it seems that without an injury, loosing streak or really struggling QB, most coaches shy away from mid-season switches.

[BroncoBJ]

I don't buy into the 'deserves to start', just like I didn't think Bubby Brister deserved to start, or that Shanahan screwed Plummer by benching him for Cutler. I think if Orton is the better QB when the season starts (which I expect him to be) then he should start, if Tebow outplays him in TC and preseason, then he deserves to start. Same with Quinn.

Same. :salute: I want the best QB on the field that gives us the best chance to win. And I believe that is Orton. I believe either Orton or Quinn will start. But each game Tebow will play around 5-10 plays in different short yardage situations or goaline. And he'll work his way to being a starter that way. And I believe that after the year Orton gets traded somewhere. And Quinn and Tebow will be the main guys in Denver :elefant:

[Tned]

Same. :salute: I want the best QB on the field that gives us the best chance to win. And I believe that is Orton. I believe either Orton or Quinn will start. But each game Tebow will play around 5-10 plays in different short yardage situations or goaline. And he'll work his way to being a starter that way. And I believe that after the year Orton gets traded somewhere. And Quinn and Tebow will be the main guys in Denver :elefant:

Orton signed a one year tender. Depending on what happens with the CBA, Orton will likely be a UFA in '11, so there will be no trading him he will just leave as a free agent.

[Elevation inc]

well im gonna need alot more than a few days....let me see what the guy looks like on the field first.....im very apprehensive right now....MCD really took a risk here....

[BroncoBJ]

Orton signed a one year tender. Depending on what happens with the CBA, Orton will likely be a UFA in '11, so there will be no trading him he will just leave as a free agent.

True. I think I've just been so use to trades the past 2 seasons that its just on my mind :lol: Plus its late. But I don't see Orton as our QB past this season. We'll see what happens though. I'm glad we got that guy whos suppose to be our QB though. I don't want to have a new QB every season and rotating QB's. I want to have a QB and stick with it for a while :elefant:

[Elevation inc]

Orton signed a one year tender. Depending on what happens with the CBA, Orton will likely be a UFA in '11, so there will be no trading him he will just leave as a free agent.

i feel kinda sorry for orton...but if he walks in 2011 i wont be very sad to see him go.....

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

They conveniently left out the fact that the second Tebow got tired he went right back to his old elongated throwing motion and immediately broke down on his new mechanics. Some would argue he'll do the exact same thing in a game.

[Nomad]

The ol 'franchise' word! LaFevour has the chance to be a 'franchise' QB given the chance and Bradford/Clausen could fail miserably! Funny how fans and media throw this word around like it's a given instead of earned. I believe every player has to earn the 'franchise' label and I hope some of you give Tebow the same rope you've given Cutler (which going to his 4th yr and hasn't earned the 'franchise' label. He has all the tools lacks the mental aspect and attitude). I hope McDaniels has built a team around whether it be Orton, Quinn (who is a so called 'franchise' QB but had a terrible supporting cast in Cleveland), Tebow or Brandstater starting. I hope whoever our QB is succeeds and gives the BRONCOS long time success!!

Let Tebow hold the clipboard and soak in McDs system because I know if Orton and Quinn can't do the job, Tebow will give it his best shot!

[Northman]

They conveniently left out the fact that the second Tebow got tired he went right back to his old elongated throwing motion and immediately broke down on his new mechanics. Some would argue he'll do the exact same thing in a game.

This is a key point. Tebow struggled at the Senior Bowl in real game time playing. Then he goes to the pro day where he is just doing drills and throws well but the reality is any team that takes Tebow on needs him to perform well in real game time, not just drills. This is what makes him a project more than anything else because your asking a guy to totally change his makup from years of playing football to essentially do things he isnt accustomed too.

[Ravage!!!]

WAIT A MINUTE.....


how are we calling him a "franchise QB" when he hasn't played a down yet?

[Ravage!!!]

He has an it factor. People were mocking Vince Young, but he's proved a lot of people wrong. He that it factor as well.

He's still not a good NFL QB, by ANY means. He has the 'it' of needing the team to replace him.

[GEM]

Nah, i hear ya man but i LOATHE it when someone puts somebody on a pedestal like that when said player hasnt even taken a snap yet. Timmy has a lot of great qualities as a individual and character guy. But man, i can point to MANY players who believe in themselves just as much and fall short because of one thing or another. I understand its your opinion and thats fine with me but all i can do is just shake my head for now. Over the course of the years ive learned that no matter what player i may like or feel is going to be good or great it doesnt always transpire that way until that person actually hits the field. Obviously, i dont feel the same way you do in terms of his success in the NFL but if he succeeds than good for him and whatever team he is a part of. But, this guy is a project and if he was taken in the 4th or 5th round i probably wouldnt be so negative on us taking him. But, using a first round pick on him means that this guy should be starting from day 1. When you draft Qb's in the first round (as most players) those are the ones that are supposed to help your team immediately. Even most of the pundits who like the pick say he is not NFL ready yet in terms of his mechanics, etc. It isnt the guy im necessarily upset with its just where we took him.

So, people shouldn't put him on a pedestal since he hasn't played a down? But, it's ok to denigrate a guy even though he hasn't played a down?

[Tned]

The ol 'franchise' word! LaFevour has the chance to be a 'franchise' QB given the chance and Bradford/Clausen could fail miserably! Funny how fans and media throw this word around like it's a given instead of earned. I believe every player has to earn the 'franchise' label and I hope some of you give Tebow the same rope you've given Cutler (which going to his 4th yr and hasn't earned the 'franchise' label. He has all the tools lacks the mental aspect and attitude). I hope McDaniels has built a team around whether it be Orton, Quinn (who is a so called 'franchise' QB but had a terrible supporting cast in Cleveland), Tebow or Brandstater starting. I hope whoever our QB is succeeds and gives the BRONCOS long time success!!

Let Tebow hold the clipboard and soak in McDs system because I know if Orton and Quinn can't do the job, Tebow will give it his best shot!

I'm sure if Tebow is as productive in his first three years as Cutler was, almost every fan (except the handful that fell in love with Orton and will feel he was slighted by drafting Tebow) will be ecstatic.

[GEM]

WAIT A MINUTE.....


how are we calling him a "franchise QB" when he hasn't played a down yet?

And how are we calling him a "bust" when he hasn't played a down yet?

Goes both ways....again, as always, it depends which side of the fence you sit on.

[MasterShake]

Good Draft, bad draft, franchise QB or bust, the only constant the last 25 years of my life has been Denver Broncos football. I have been watching contently and cheering and getting pissed off since I was 6 years old. The only thing I have control over is how loud I can scream on game day and how much orange and blue I can make my dogs and baby wear before my wife says stop buying mini NFL jerseys and hats. I screamed my head off for Elway, Griese, Plummer, and Cutler and you bet I'll continue being a lunatic for Orton, Quinn, Tebow, or whoever they shove behind center to be a General for MY team! I'll scream with joy and disgust at my TV, or as one of thousands in unison at Mile High. This game is bigger than me or any player, and thats why I like the NFL and why I love the Denver Broncos!

[Northman]

So, people shouldn't put him on a pedestal since he hasn't played a down? But, it's ok to denigrate a guy even though he hasn't played a down?


Im not denigrating the guy.

[GEM]

Im not denigrating the guy.

There are plenty that are, I apologize I should have pointed that out in my quoting of your post.

[Tned]

I screamed my head off for Elway, Griese, Plummer, and Cutler and you bet I'll continue being a lunatic for Orton, Quinn, Tebow, or whoever they shove behind center to be a General for MY team! I'll scream with joy and disgust at my TV, or as one of thousands in unison at Mile High. This game is bigger than me or any player, and thats why I like the NFL and why I love the Denver Broncos!

Well said.

[honz]

Here me out, bro.

I'm talking about Tebow man, not McDaniels.

I hate McDaniels. The only time I almost started to like him was after our 6-0 start, and that faded really quickly.

There's just something about Tim Tebow that sets him apart from the Ryan Leaf's, JaMarcus Russell's, Alex Smith's, David Carr's, etc.

Tebow does not see failure as an option, and I believe him. I have a great bullshit detector, and it doesn't go crazy when Tebow talks about his passion and love for the game, and his work ethic. I truly believe that Tebow will work out, with McDaniels or without McDaniels. I could care less.

If Tebow busts, well at least he left the franchise with a new identity and character. Tebow is unique, and there isn't any player out there like him. He lives and breathes to succeed.
Lumping Alex Smith with those guys is so unfair that it is ridiculous. No he hasn't panned out as hoped, but he has battled through injury and worked his butt off to learn a new system every year. Oh yeah, and he hasn't played all that poorly when healthy.

/off topic rant

[Ravage!!!]

And how are we calling him a "bust" when he hasn't played a down yet?

Goes both ways....again, as always, it depends which side of the fence you sit on.

QUit the over defensiveness GEM, that's for Denver Native.

I never used the word Bust ONE time in referring to Tebow.

Just becuase I didn't like the pick, don't like where we took him, and don't like the picks we gave to get him, doesn't mean i'm calling him a "Bust."

But just as you have your "high hopes" on the name Tebow, I haven't seen a single thing from his college days that makes me believe he's an NFL QB. So my 'hesitations' and 'disappointments' are absolutely just as "right" as those calling him the savior.

Even after the GOOD play we saw from Cutler on the field, people want to scream "he's not a franchise"... yet Tebow is a franchise QB when there wasn't a Season that went by where EVERY scout said "he's NOT NFL QB ready?"

[Italianmobstr7]

NOBODY can watch this vid and tell me they honestly don't think he's going to do whatever it takes to succeed. Check it out.

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[honz]

NOBODY can watch this vid and tell me they honestly don't think he's going to do whatever it takes to succeed. Check it out.

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Yeah, but I tried really hard to get into this girl's pants last night....I gave it my all and put my heart and soul into it, but it didn't happen.

/devil's advocate

[GEM]

QUit the over defensiveness GEM, that for Denver Native.

I never used the word Bust ONE time in referring to Tebow.

Just becuase I didn't like the pick, don't like where we took him, and don't like the picks we gave to get him, doesn't mean i'm calling him a "Bust."

But just as you have your "high hopes" on the name Tebow, I haven't seen a single thing from his college days that makes me believe he's an NFL QB. So my 'hesitations' and 'disappointments' are absolutely just as "right" as those calling him the savior.

Even after the GOOD play we saw from Cutler on the field, people want to scream "he's not a franchise"... yet Tebow is a franchise QB when there wasn't a Season that went by where EVERY scout said "he's NOT NFL QB ready?"


The word bust has been associated with the kid since way before the draft. All he did was win. :shrugs: Funny, Cutler was deemed a draft steal and all he did was lose. Ironic. :lol:

I haven't called him a savior, hell, I told you I was screaming at my tv when they picked him.....but he's a Bronco, he's had a highly successful college career, he has "it", so I'll support him and hope for the best, because the best for him means the best for the Broncos. I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't know decisively enough to know if he's a franchise or a bust, I will let his play prove which one he is rather than condemning him before he's even stepped foot on a Broncos field.

:shrugs:

[Ravage!!!]

This whole "he works hard, he'll do whatever it takes" is SOoooo overplayed. Do you know how many players have done that? Do you know how many players work hard? Do you know how many times we've heard the expresssion "First to get in, last to leave" thoughout the years? About a million times!!! Do you know how many players had confidence they would succeed in the NFL????

Please.... thats not going to make him an NFL passing QB.

[Northman]

Yeah, but I tried really hard to get into this girl's pants last night....I gave it my all and put my heart and soul into it, but it didn't happen.

/devil's advocate


That is soooo much better than what i was going to come back with. :lol:

[honz]

That is soooo much better than what i was going to come back with. :lol:

That said though, I sure as hell wouldn't bet against him. I never liked the guy before he was a Bronco, but his will is more outstanding than Rod Marinelli's.

[Northman]

That said though, I sure as hell wouldn't bet against him. I never liked the guy before he was a Bronco, but his will is more outstanding than Rod Marinelli's.

Having watched his college career ive known he has the drive but like i tried pointing out to GL is that there are a lot of players like that but dont get near the pub that Tebow has coming into the NFL. When you break it all down he REALLY isnt that special than any other player who wants to be successful in the NFL. They all want and have the drive to perform so its kind of insulting to every other player that has played the game to believe that Tebow is on this lonely island of enchantment. But there have been players who have the heart and drive to succeed but have failed because they are missing the other elements that are needed to succeed. Will Tebow be that guy? Who knows but just because he has the drive to succeed doesnt mean he necessarily will and thats all ive tried to point out here the last few days.

[Lonestar]

I'm normally of the 1st's start day one, I feel that Tebow could. But does not mean he should.

Most of the biggie QBs that started day one almost had to. They did not have a good QB in front of them, they mostly were on pissy team from 0 to maybe 3 or 4 wins the previous years.
Using manning's, Sanchez as the poster child is grossly misleading for they were indeed the best QB in the draft for the most part they were #1 picks not plus 20 or later.

IMHO Tebow probalby could start day one, but that would not allow us to win as much as Orton will.

Now we all know our last FQB sucked donkey balls when he was insrted as starter after game 11.

Supossedly he was the BEST QB in the draft in 06. Lots of folks hated Jake so much they let their hate get the best of logic wanting the FQB to start day one and in some cases were frothing at the mouth. After a poor start by the team and Jake that year.

I'm sure that Tim will play when he is ready and if Orton does not produce some may get there wish for him starting.

In this case I'd want him on the sidelines as long as possible. Simply put starting rookie QBs IMO is not wise. Almost any other #1 should be able to start day 1 especially the non skill posistions. But QB gets a pass unless your team was a total loser the year before.



Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

[Slick]

QUit the over defensiveness GEM, that's for Denver Native.

I never used the word Bust ONE time in referring to Tebow.

Just becuase I didn't like the pick, don't like where we took him, and don't like the picks we gave to get him, doesn't mean i'm calling him a "Bust."

But just as you have your "high hopes" on the name Tebow, I haven't seen a single thing from his college days that makes me believe he's an NFL QB. So my 'hesitations' and 'disappointments' are absolutely just as "right" as those calling him the savior.

Even after the GOOD play we saw from Cutler on the field, people want to scream "he's not a franchise"... yet Tebow is a franchise QB when there wasn't a Season that went by where EVERY scout said "he's NOT NFL QB ready?"

Go watch the 2010 Sugar Bowl. If 31-35 for 482 and 3 touchdowns doesn't at least make you say there's a CHANCE he could wing it a little in the pros, I don't know what to tell you.

[Elevation inc]

Go watch the 2010 Sugar Bowl. If 31-35 for 482 and 3 touchdowns doesn't at least make you say there's a CHANCE he could wing it a little in the pros, I don't know what to tell you.

i belive he can wing it in the pros...but thats also a problem for me...what happens when he gets figured out????? i do have to say though i think the whole arm thing and throwing motion is a little exagerated he put some pretty balls up during his years in florida...i think he needs to get used to NFL speed, Be consistent and learn his progressions and reading defenses.....that wont happen by next year...and if it does then he really might be the best thing for this franchsie in some time....

im certainly going to wait on that though just like i did when jay was drafted....

[Tned]

Now we all know our last FQB sucked donkey balls when he was insrted as starter after game 11.

Supossedly he was the BEST QB in the draft in 06. Lots of folks hated Jake so much they let their hate get the best of logic wanting the FQB to start day one and in some cases were frothing at the mouth. After a poor start by the team and Jake that year.


Nice revision of history. Ever consider getting a job writing text books?

[Slick]

i belive he can wing it in the pros...but thats also a problem for me...what happens when he gets figured out????? i do have to say though i think the whole arm thing and throwing motion is a little exagerated he put some pretty balls up during his years in florida...i think he needs to get used to NFL speed, Be consistent and learn his progressions and reading defenses.....that wont happen by next year...and if it does then he really might be the best thing for this franchsie in some time....

im certainly going to wait on that though just like i did when jay was drafted....

Absolutely...and I'm not saying he's a sure thing. Far from it, and I agree with Northman's point too. Just because he's a hard worker and a good character guy doesn't guarantee he'll succeed. It won't hurt, but it's certainly no guarantee.

He won't be able to bowl over linebackers 20 times a game like he did in college either, but his mobility could be a huge factor, and something that keeps defenses on their heels.

[jhildebrand]

Like GL47, I have thought and thought on Tim Tebow since the Broncos called his name at the draft.

I haven't truly weighed in on the actual pick itself. I still think giving up a 2,3, and 4 for him was steep. Look at it like this, is Thomas the WR worth a 2,3, and 4? Because the Broncos could have and should have taken Tebow with the first pick and gambled on losing Thomas. Even if they had lost on Thomas, Benn was there among other WR's and they still would have had a 2,3, and 4 to work with. At the least they could have given up less to get to Thomas as GB nor NE would have taken him.

That said, that is about all I don't like about the pick. Bill Parcells philosophy on drafting a QB is draft a senior who has started who has played in major games and won and who has or will graduate. Parcells has always done well with QB's.

I like that Tebow has been starting since he was a sophmore. He was a legitimate three time Heisman contender and the first sophmore to win it! He beat a good Oklahoma team to win the National Championship. The guy won a lot of games in the SEC.

The guy is himself. Sure we can all call him a "Bible bumper" or "Jesus freak" and some of it makes for good comical fodder. However, the clear minority on most college campuses are of the mindset of Tebow. You could argue almost every college campus in America is liberal. Tebow was himself. Tebow won over his lockerroom being Tebow. It is clear there wasn't anything his teammates wouldn't do for him. He didn't change to fit in or change to get guys to like him! I like that A LOT.

Now to the football side of things. Tebow, at every level, has been scrutinzed for mechanics, delivery, defenses, etc... At every level Tebow won and won a lot. I don't believe for one minute that Tebow played and won as much in the SEC without knowing how to read a D.

For me it comes down to this: McDaniels came in and moved Cutler (I like the move but not the way he handled it) and replaced him with the ANTITHESIS or ANTI Cutler. Cutler coming out of college could make all the throws. He has a cannon of an arm rumored to be stronger than John Elway's (:rolleyes:). The fact is Cutler had every reason to succeed yet he hasn't. Why? Because there are some things you can coach and some things you can't coach! Cutler doesn't seem to have football as his #1 priority. Cutler couldn't be coached to stay out of the clubs and not get wasted DESPITE being diagnosed with Diabetes. The limelight and partying seems equally as important to the kid and that should be a problem for any fan or team considering the investment needed to have him on your team.

That is what I like about Tebow. Any so called limitation the guy has can be coached. He can be coached to read a D. His mechanics can be coached. Some of which are overdone with regard to analysis anyway! The guy will have team and football as priority #1 and will die trying to make it and that is something that you have or don't and it can't be coached. I think that bodes well for the team especially if they can bring Tebow along properly.

[honz]

Absolutely...and I'm not saying he's a sure thing. Far from it, and I agree with Northman's point too. Just because he's a hard worker and a good character guy doesn't guarantee he'll succeed. It won't hurt, but it's certainly no guarantee.

He won't be able to bowl over linebackers 20 times a game like he did in college either, but his mobility could be a huge factor, and something that keeps defenses on their heels.
I was just wondering this morning how hard it is going to be for McD and the other coaches to get this guy to learn how to hookslide. Forget his throwing motion!

[underrated29]

They conveniently left out the fact that the second Tebow got tired he went right back to his old elongated throwing motion and immediately broke down on his new mechanics. Some would argue he'll do the exact same thing in a game.





Back to my same old arguement. SO WHAT??!?!?! Who cares if he reverts back to his old low throwing motion. Touchdowns and Wins are not graded on how the ball comes out. Just where it ends up... Tebows passes ended up in the Endzone for the Touchdown and for the win. It still baffles me why people are hung up on his shytty mechanics.....It does not matter as long as it works. Tebow has made it work. Once again, who cares...





Yeah, but I tried really hard to get into this girl's pants last night....I gave it my all and put my heart and soul into it, but it didn't happen.

/devil's advocate




Dude that because you dont have any nuts left after the draft.

[getlynched47]

Nah, i never implied that you did so sorry if i made it sound like that. My point is generally the great QB's who are forced into day 1 starting jobs will show you right from the get go if they have the "it" factor that everyone likes throwing around lately.

We are not worthy to experience the great Tim Tebow as a rookie :D

All kidding aside, I could easily see Tebow being our goal-line quarterback. Not lined up as a tailback behind Kyle Orton, but replacing Kyle Orton at quarterback at the goal-line.

That gives us a HUGE amount of options at the goal line because Tebow could pass it, jump-pass it, bulldoze his way in, or pitch it to the runningback. You can't defend all of those things with one defensive package. At the very least, I think that's how he can contribute as a rookie. :salute:

[mateus]

Like GL47, I have thought and thought on Tim Tebow since the Broncos called his name at the draft.

I haven't truly weighed in on the actual pick itself. I still think giving up a 2,3, and 4 for him was steep. Look at it like this, is Thomas the WR worth a 2,3, and 4? Because the Broncos could have and should have taken Tebow with the first pick and gambled on losing Thomas. Even if they had lost on Thomas, Benn was there among other WR's and they still would have had a 2,3, and 4 to work with. At the least they could have given up less to get to Thomas as GB nor NE would have taken him.

That said, that is about all I don't like about the pick. Bill Parcells philosophy on drafting a QB is draft a senior who has started who has played in major games and won and who has or will graduate. Parcells has always done well with QB's.

I like that Tebow has been starting since he was a sophmore. He was a legitimate three time Heisman contender and the first sophmore to win it! He beat a good Oklahoma team to win the National Championship. The guy won a lot of games in the SEC.

The guy is himself. Sure we can all call him a "Bible bumper" or "Jesus freak" and some of it makes for good comical fodder. However, the clear minority on most college campuses are of the mindset of Tebow. You could argue almost every college campus in America is liberal. Tebow was himself. Tebow won over his lockerroom being Tebow. It is clear there wasn't anything his teammates wouldn't do for him. He didn't change to fit in or change to get guys to like him! I like that A LOT.

Now to the football side of things. Tebow, at every level, has been scrutinzed for mechanics, delivery, defenses, etc... At every level Tebow won and won a lot. I don't believe for one minute that Tebow played and won as much in the SEC without knowing how to read a D.

For me it comes down to this: McDaniels came in and moved Cutler (I like the move but not the way he handled it) and replaced him with the ANTITHESIS or ANTI Cutler. Cutler coming out of college could make all the throws. He has a cannon of an arm rumored to be stronger than John Elway's (:rolleyes:). The fact is Cutler had every reason to succeed yet he hasn't. Why? Because there are some things you can coach and some things you can't coach! Cutler doesn't seem to have football as his #1 priority. Cutler couldn't be coached to stay out of the clubs and not get wasted DESPITE being diagnosed with Diabetes. The limelight and partying seems equally as important to the kid and that should be a problem for any fan or team considering the investment needed to have him on your team.

That is what I like about Tebow. Any so called limitation the guy has can be coached. He can be coached to read a D. His mechanics can be coached. Some of which are overdone with regard to analysis anyway! The guy will have team and football as priority #1 and will die trying to make it and that is something that you have or don't and it can't be coached. I think that bodes well for the team especially if they can bring Tebow along properly.
don't you hate it when a good post goes unrecognised?
well put and especially the bolded part! that's why i'm jumping on the bandwagon, because if anything it will be a heck of a ride and at the end i feel that you wan't to be there when Tebow does it. and you want to be there for every moment.

[getlynched47]

This whole "he works hard, he'll do whatever it takes" is SOoooo overplayed. Do you know how many players have done that? Do you know how many players work hard? Do you know how many times we've heard the expresssion "First to get in, last to leave" thoughout the years? About a million times!!! Do you know how many players had confidence they would succeed in the NFL????

Please.... thats not going to make him an NFL passing QB.

Actually, no it's not overplayed.

When I say Peyton Manning, what comes to mind? Not the word "talent". The words intelligence, work-ethic, preparation, leadership.

What about Drew Brees? Intelligence, work-ethic, preparation, leadership.

Tom Brady? Intelligence, work-ethic, preparation, leadership.

Matt Leinart? Partying, talent, USC.

Vince Young? Talent.

Joey Harrington? I can go on and on.

So yes, the intelligence, work-ethic, preparation, and leadership make a huge difference for a Quarterback. Tim Tebow has those and intangibles that are amazing.

[Ravage!!!]

Actually, no it's not overplayed.

When I say Peyton Manning, what comes to mind? Not the word "talent". The words intelligence, work-ethic, preparation, leadership.

What about Drew Brees? Intelligence, work-ethic, preparation, leadership.

Tom Brady? Intelligence, work-ethic, preparation, leadership.

Matt Leinart? Partying, talent, USC.

Vince Young? Talent.

Joey Harrington? I can go on and on.

So yes, the intelligence, work-ethic, preparation, and leadership make a huge difference for a Quarterback. Tim Tebow has those and intangibles that are amazing.

Dude.. you are cherry picking. I can name a ton of athletes, when coming OUT of college had the "hard worker, loves the sport, will be the first one in and the last one to leave, tremendous athlete, loves the film room...." and failed.

Don't try to tell me these are the only characteristics of success. Its over played because you have to perform on the field for these things to matter.

I'm not calling him a bust. I'm saying that if I were to pick a QB of the future, it would be a QB that is known for THROWING the ball in college and not running it. This is a passing league. One that will absolutely rely on our QB to take the team on his ARM, and not his legs. Don't try to tell me that the "he loves the game, he works hard" isn't over sold...because that is not the lone thing needed to succeed at QB.

Name me a QB that came out of college that couldn't throw, but turned into a 'passing QB' once reaching the NFL.

So yeah..actually, it is over played. I can go on and on as well.

[getlynched47]

Dude.. you are cherry picking. I can name a ton of athletes, when coming OUT of college had the "hard worker, loves the sport, will be the first one in and the last one to leave, tremendous athlete, loves the film room...." and failed.

Don't try to tell me these are the only characteristics of success. Its over played because you have to perform on the field for these things to matter.

I'm not calling him a bust. I'm saying that if I were to pick a QB of the future, it would be a QB that is known for THROWING the ball in college and not running it. This is a passing league. One that will absolutely rely on our QB to take the team on his ARM, and not his legs. Don't try to tell me that the "he loves the game, he works hard" isn't over sold...because that is not the lone thing needed to succeed at QB.

Name me a QB that came out of college that couldn't throw, but turned into a 'passing QB' once reaching the NFL.

So yeah..actually, it is over played. I can go on and on as well.

Philip Rivers and Rich Gannon have "quirky mechanics". They turned out pretty well.

It's not like Tebow can't throw worth shit. He needs to clean some things up, which he can. It's not like he will never ever improve. He can improve and he will improve. I'm not saying he's going to the Hall of Fame or going to be better than John Elway or anything of that sort.

I'm arguing that Tim Tebow will be our franchise Quarterback. Whether we like it or not. :D

[Ravage!!!]

Philip Rivers and Rich Gannon have "quirky mechanics". They turned out pretty well.

It's not like Tebow can't throw worth shit. He needs to clean some things up, which he can. It's not like he will never ever improve. He can improve and he will improve. I'm not saying he's going to the Hall of Fame or going to be better than John Elway or anything of that sort.

I'm arguing that Tim Tebow will be our franchise Quarterback. Whether we like it or not. :D

Oh gee.. that makes me feel a lot better. Your guarantee.

its not just his 'quirks.'

its the fact that he never played under center. Never read defenses. Doesn't know the first thing of the footwork from under center, and reading pre-snap defenses from under center. Its the fact that throughout his 4 years, and especially the last two years... EVERYONE has been saying "this kid has a TON of work to do if he wants to be an NFL QB."

YET.. despite him having all this determination, will, want to improve.... he NEVER ONCE changed his throwing throughout college??? His family is pretty well off, there would have been a TON of REALLY REALLY top quality coaches that could have come in and helped and worked with him during ANY offseason he had when he was at Florida...... why not? If he really had all this dedication, where did it go during the off season?

Before this last season, he was upset with his NFL scouting report because eveyrone said he didn't have the mechanics and couldn't throw at an NFL level. Said he was going to work and change.....yet... DIDN'T. If he has all this "dedication" and "worth ethic".. and will do ANYTHING to make it...... why didn't he work on it and change? Why did he wait just four weeks before his 'pro day' workout to start to work on this???? :confused:

For someone who's biggest "quality" seems to be how "hard he works" (just ask him, he'll be the one that tells you most often)... he sure didn't work hard when he had the chance, the opportunity, and the knowledge to know he SHOULD change. He even said so himself... yet didn't.

I have a lot of concerns about his ability to pass well at the NFL level. Not his athletic ability... not his 'character'.. not his being a great guy and worth ethic. Its actually being able to be a successful passer at the top level when the TOP passers are what is needed the most.

[getlynched47]

Oh gee.. that makes me feel a lot better. Your guarantee.

its not just his 'quirks.'

its the fact that he never played under center. Never read defenses. Doesn't know the first thing of the footwork from under center, and reading pre-snap defenses from under center. Its the fact that throughout his 4 years, and especially the last two years... EVERYONE has been saying "this kid has a TON of work to do if he wants to be an NFL QB."

YET.. despite him having all this determination, will, want to improve.... he NEVER ONCE changed his throwing throughout college??? His family is pretty well off, there would have been a TON of REALLY REALLY top quality coaches that could have come in and helped and worked with him during ANY offseason he had when he was at Florida...... why not? If he really had all this dedication, where did it go during the off season?

Before this last season, he was upset with his NFL scouting report because eveyrone said he didn't have the mechanics and couldn't throw at an NFL level. Said he was going to work and change.....yet... DIDN'T. If he has all this "dedication" and "worth ethic".. and will do ANYTHING to make it...... why didn't he work on it and change? Why did he wait just four weeks before his 'pro day' workout to start to work on this???? :confused:

For someone who's biggest "quality" seems to be how "hard he works" (just ask him, he'll be the one that tells you most often)... he sure didn't work hard when he had the chance, the opportunity, and the knowledge to know he SHOULD change. He even said so himself... yet didn't.

I have a lot of concerns about his ability to pass well at the NFL level. Not his athletic ability... not his 'character'.. not his being a great guy and worth ethic. Its actually being able to be a successful passer at the top level when the TOP passers are what is needed the most.

Tim Tebow didn't have NFL coaching.

Did he really say that he was going to change it before the 2009 season? I never heard about that. I'd like to read about that if you have some proof. Also, if it worked in college, then why change it???

Tim Tebow can't pass the ball?? :lol: http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_3171_A_tale_of_six_quarterbacks.html

You'll love this article. Trust me.

[getlynched47]

Manning, Brady, and Brees also have lightning quick releases, good accuracy, and can pick apart NFL defenses. Preparation and work ethic are not their only attributes. Far from it. Just because Tebow has a good work ethic and "leadership" doesn't mean he is an automatic quality QB. He has A LOT of work to do.

Manning, Brady, and Brees didn't come into the league with lighting quick releases, great accuracy, and the ability to pick apart NFL defenses. Therefore, this argument doesn't prove that Tebow won't be a good quarterback because he doesn't possess these attributes as of now.

With their preparation and work ethic, they developed those skills.

Name me one successful quarterback in the NFL that doesn't have those quailities....I'll wait.

There's no denying that he has a lot of work to do. I never said otherwise. Tebow was just overanalyzed by the "experts"

[jhildebrand]

You DO know that is a load of bull, right? Everything you said contradicts everything said by Cutler's ex-teammes, ex-coaches, current teammates, and current coaches. Given every opportunity to succeed? Are you special? Since when was playing with an utterly bad defense being given every opportunity to succeed? He didn't constantly go out to clubs or get wasted all the time. So what if he occasionally had a drink. Is that illegal? No. He is FAR from uncoachable. HIGHLY regarded coaches rave about him. Mike Shanahan and Mike Martz BOTH raved about him and continue to rave about him. If you want to make your argument for Tebow, fine. But don't just spew a bunch of stupid crap to try and make this some fairy tale story that you desire.

I believe where there is smoke there is fire! Where is there smoke you ask. In the locker room. There was plenty of division in the Denver locker room. They (Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler) wouldn't let Eddie Royal play in their reindeer games. Nate Jackson (who I can't stand) has mentioned in several interviews on FM 1043 the FAN the divisive nature of Jay Cutler. The last Shanahan year he had no contact with Jay from week 8. All contact was how to carry himself. He had one of the best QB minds the game has known and couldn't get along with the coach. He wasn't in Chicago 10 minutes before the division with Urlacher reared its ugly head!

Do I care if my team's franchise QB likes to have an occasional drink? No. Do I care if my team's franchise QB likes to get tore down, close the bars drunk? YEP!

Do I care if my team's franchise QB likes to have an occasional drink? NOPE!

Do I care if my team's franchise QB likes to have an occasional drink after being diagnosed with type one diabetes? YES! It shows a degree of selfishness not to mention poor decision making! One alcohol induced diabetic coma and the kid could very easily become an amputee. I wouldn't bet on Cutler being the first amputee to make it in the NFL. It also goes to show football wont be his number one priority. Not a problem for some but I want a guy who WANTS IT.

Finally, what is Martz going to say at this point? :confused: Lovie Smith is on the hot seat. Martz could be an OC who easily becomes the next HC of the Bears. At a minimum he is no idiot. He will not bash the guy. He knows how easy it would be for Cutler to run him out of town.

[jhildebrand]

Never read defenses

Come on, Rav! You think this guy was the winningest QB in the SEC and mentioned among the best college QB's ever NOT reading D's? :confused:

The guy played and succeeded in the SEC. He owned the Florida lockerroom. That is as close to the pros as it gets.

His personality (which rubs me wrong) is ra ra go Jesus kind of guy. That crap doesn't fly in college for most anybody. He won over the locker room and teammates being him.

There are guys that don't even sniff the SEC i.e. Joe Flacco, Byron Leftwhich, Philip Rivers, etc... that have less than ideal mechanics who come into the league and succeeded. All Tebow has done is win. I like that and will take a chance on it. People have been taking chances on Tebow all along and have been handsomely rewarded. Let's hope, selfishly, that continues!

[underrated29]

YET.. despite him having all this determination, will, want to improve.... he NEVER ONCE changed his throwing throughout college??? His family is pretty well off, there would have been a TON of REALLY REALLY top quality coaches that could have come in and helped and worked with him during ANY offseason he had when he was at Florida...... why not? If he really had all this dedication, where did it go during the off season?

Before this last season, he was upset with his NFL scouting report because eveyrone said he didn't have the mechanics and couldn't throw at an NFL level. Said he was going to work and change.....yet... DIDN'T. If he has all this "dedication" and "worth ethic".. and will do ANYTHING to make it...... why didn't he work on it and change? Why did he wait just four weeks before his 'pro day' workout to start to work on this???? :confused:







Ok, I have regurgitated this every day, but until someone can convince me otherwise here it is again..


WHO CARES!!

Who cares if he wanted to change and didnt. Who cares if his footwork blow and his release is 3/4 side arm? The dude strait up gets after it and does it. Now you can say that in the pros he might not be able to get away with it. And that could very well be the case. But I also think that he will adapt to that...........

I do not know why everyone is sooo concerned with his release and footwork, when he is pretty dam accurate and can chuck the ball down field...


The one and only concern that should be had is the ability to read defenses and read them quickly either from under C, or in shotty. That he needs a TON of work on. The rest, screw the rest. Try to polish it up,but if not so what. It works for him and if it aint broke dont fix it! Let him play his game his way. IF it produces those same results, I say no harm no foul.

[jhildebrand]

YET.. despite him having all this determination, will, want to improve.... he NEVER ONCE changed his throwing throughout college??? His family is pretty well off, there would have been a TON of REALLY REALLY top quality coaches that could have come in and helped and worked with him during ANY offseason he had when he was at Florida...... why not? If he really had all this dedication, where did it go during the off season?

Because the system he ran and Urban Meyer didn't require it! The system here, for better or worse, wont require it. He is built for the dink and dunk short stuff offense which this is. The only difference is he adds a dimension where he can take off. Orton was too scared to run! We saw several times where Orton began to run and in chicken little fashion dumped it to a RB and damn near got them killed. Tebow will be a huge concern to the D because he can take it a long way on his legs. Finally, teams can stack the box again like they did last year but eventually Tebow and the team can actually capitalize on it.

[TXBRONC]

Because the system he ran and Urban Meyer didn't require it! The system here, for better or worse, wont require it. He is built for the dink and dunk short stuff offense which this is. The only difference is he adds a dimension where he can take off. Orton was too scared to run! We saw several times where Orton began to run and in chicken little fashion dumped it to a RB and damn near got them killed. Tebow will be a huge concern to the D because he can take it a long way on his legs. Finally, teams can stack the box again like they did last year but eventually Tebow and the team can actually capitalize on it.

J I disagree with you to a small degree. You can take just about any offense and make it dink and dunk. Defenses will pick up on that in hurry if all you're doing is nickle and dimming it every time your out there. In my opinion Orton doesn't go deep with ball not because there isn't any receivers running deeper routes it's because they weren't there it's because he plays not to make mistakes.

[jhildebrand]

J I disagree with you to a small degree. You can take just about any offense and make it dink and dunk. Defenses will pick up on that in hurry if all you're doing is nickle and dimming it every time your out there. In my opinion Orton doesn't go deep with ball not because there isn't any receivers running deeper routes it's because they weren't there it's because he plays not to make mistakes.

I think it is because the coach doesn't LET him. I saw Scheffler WIDE open several time down the seem and deep. I saw a lot of people open down the field and they never even got a look.

I know Orton plays not to make a mistake but the knock on him is he does it to a fault.

We didn't see a concerted effort for the deep ball until the media hounded the issue for weeks.

Finally, this offense isn't wide open and down the field as much as or near as much as most offenses. We could probably check pro-football-reference.com and get a pretty good idea.

Finally,

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I think it is because the coach doesn't LET him. I saw Scheffler WIDE open several time down the seem and deep. I saw a lot of people open down the field and they never even got a look.

I know Orton plays not to make a mistake but the knock on him is he does it to a fault.

We didn't see a concerted effort for the deep ball until the media hounded the issue for weeks.

Finally, this offense isn't wide open and down the field as much as or near as much as most offenses. We could probably check pro-football-reference.com and get a pretty good idea.

Finally,

No need to check anything - offense starts on the OL, and hopefully that area will be much improved this year. Running game opens up the passing game, and the OL play is where everything starts, or where everything stops.

[Ziggy]

No need to check anything - offense starts on the OL, and hopefully that area will be much improved this year. Running game opens up the passing game, and the OL play is where everything starts, or where everything stops.

....and the voice of reason steps in. Nice take Carol. We could have put Manning or Brady behind our Oline last season, and still not challenged for a super bowl appearance.

[underrated29]

....and the voice of reason steps in. Nice take Carol. We could have put Manning or Brady behind our Oline last season, and still not challenged for a super bowl appearance.




That may be taking things too far there. If we had peyton or tom behind our OL last year. No we probably would not be in the big dance, but we would be a whole lot better off... Lets not mistake that. They would keep the D honest, and Keep that dam Saftey out of the box. Not focus soley on marshall and so on and so forth. Plus Orton was not sacked that many times,,,,well atleast where he didnt fall down because seomeone brushed by him.

[Tned]

....and the voice of reason steps in. Nice take Carol. We could have put Manning or Brady behind our Oline last season, and still not challenged for a super bowl appearance.

The line wasn't that bad. It might not have been quite as good as the year before, and the drop off in mobility from Cutler to Orton increased the sacks a bit, but Orton was not constantly under pressure.

Play calling and decision making was a much bigger issue than the line play. Yes, on occasion, teams were able to get a push up the middle, but not consistently and not enough to disrupt things. The problem was the bubble screen and similar plays being the bread and butter offense, which allowed defenses to compress the field and not allow guys like Royal any space.

[Ziggy]

The line wasn't that bad. It might not have been quite as good as the year before, and the drop off in mobility from Cutler to Orton increased the sacks a bit, but Orton was not constantly under pressure.

Play calling and decision making was a much bigger issue than the line play. Yes, on occasion, teams were able to get a push up the middle, but not consistently and not enough to disrupt things. The problem was the bubble screen and similar plays being the bread and butter offense, which allowed defenses to compress the field and not allow guys like Royal any space.

Were we watching the same team? What I saw was an offensive line that was constantly getting pushed back, running backs being met in the backfield frequently, and the playbook being severely limited due to lack of protection for the QB and a poor running game.

[Tned]

Were we watching the same team? What I saw was an offensive line that was constantly getting pushed back, running backs being met in the backfield frequently, and the playbook being severely limited due to lack of protection for the QB and a poor running game.

I guess not, we much have been watching different teams. I saw Buckhalter running for 5 YPC, while Moreno was inconsistent in his carries. That is hard to blame on the line, but instead Moreno's rookie vision problems.

Orton typically had plenty of time to throw, but by design or fear of the pick, nearly always threw underneath or to WR's sitting on the LOS.

[Lonestar]

Manning, Brady, and Brees also have lightning quick releases, good accuracy, and can pick apart NFL defenses. Preparation and work ethic are not their only attributes. Far from it. Just because Tebow has a good work ethic and "leadership" doesn't mean he is an automatic quality QB. He has A LOT of work to do.

And you don't think he knows that .

HE also knows that Josh stuck his Johnson on the line for him

If it can be done Tebow looks like the kid to do it.

I'll take my chances on #2 a "We Try Harder" kind of guy.

The only huge issue this kid has to work on, is a quick release and he has taken a huge step in doing so ALREADY.

Now it is time to perfect it and get up to speed like all the other rookie QB do without eh "speed" of the game and NFL DB's.

It was not like he played at You Who State. The guy was a winner in the SEC.

[Shazam!]

GL47-

You talk about your hate for Josh McDaniels and gush over TT's potential as the future of the Broncos at the same time.

Then you must give McD at least some credit for pulling the trigger and getting this possible franchise QB and athletic phenom to the team. He traded back twice to get comp so trading back into the 1st wasnt getting them killed. AND he got a legit replacement for Brandon Marshall.

Give the credit when its due Bro. He wanted this guy.

[Lonestar]

I believe where there is smoke there is fire! Where is there smoke you ask. In the locker room. There was plenty of division in the Denver locker room. They (Cutler, Marshall, and Scheffler) wouldn't let Eddie Royal play in their reindeer games. Nate Jackson (who I can't stand) has mentioned in several interviews on FM 1043 the FAN the divisive nature of Jay Cutler. The last Shanahan year he had no contact with Jay from week 8. All contact was how to carry himself. He had one of the best QB minds the game has known and couldn't get along with the coach. He wasn't in Chicago 10 minutes before the division with Urlacher reared its ugly head!

Do I care if my team's franchise QB likes to have an occasional drink? No. Do I care if my team's franchise QB likes to get tore down, close the bars drunk? YEP!

Do I care if my team's franchise QB likes to have an occasional drink? NOPE!

Do I care if my team's franchise QB likes to have an occasional drink after being diagnosed with type one diabetes? YES! It shows a degree of selfishness not to mention poor decision making! One alcohol induced diabetic coma and the kid could very easily become an amputee. I wouldn't bet on Cutler being the first amputee to make it in the NFL. It also goes to show football wont be his number one priority. Not a problem for some but I want a guy who WANTS IT.

Finally, what is Martz going to say at this point? :confused: Lovie Smith is on the hot seat. Martz could be an OC who easily becomes the next HC of the Bears. At a minimum he is no idiot. He will not bash the guy. He knows how easy it would be for Cutler to run him out of town.


Could you clarify this did you mean jay did not talk to mike or Nate?

I find it hard to believe it would be mike.

But then IMHO he is a coach killer and will get love fired and probably martz also.

That will be five when that happens.

mike, bates, turner, lovie and mike II.

[Lonestar]

Ok, I have regurgitated this every day, but until someone can convince me otherwise here it is again..


WHO CARES!!

Who cares if he wanted to change and didnt. Who cares if his footwork blow and his release is 3/4 side arm? The dude strait up gets after it and does it. Now you can say that in the pros he might not be able to get away with it. And that could very well be the case. But I also think that he will adapt to that...........

I do not know why everyone is sooo concerned with his release and footwork, when he is pretty dam accurate and can chuck the ball down field...


The one and only concern that should be had is the ability to read defenses and read them quickly either from under C, or in shotty. That he needs a TON of work on. The rest, screw the rest. Try to polish it up,but if not so what. It works for him and if it aint broke dont fix it! Let him play his game his way. IF it produces those same results, I say no harm no foul.

Every one seems to forget when jay came to town he did not have winning season since high school, he had a release issue, his footworks needed help and he did not read defenses at a NFL level.

Hmmmm jay still has a release issue, has happy feet and sure the hell STILL can't read defense.

Why should Tim be any different that a raw rookie that was not ready to start for us in 2006.

At least he seems to have coachable attitude and I'd guess does not drink, smoke and and **** in excess.

[Lonestar]

That may be taking things too far there. If we had peyton or tom behind our OL last year. No we probably would not be in the big dance, but we would be a whole lot better off... Lets not mistake that. They would keep the D honest, and Keep that dam Saftey out of the box. Not focus soley on marshall and so on and so forth. Plus Orton was not sacked that many times,,,,well atleast where he didnt fall down because seomeone brushed by him.


But when he tried to step up into the pocket because the DE or OLB blitzers were near him he more often than not found hamilton or casey in his face.

Plus when you have NO time to look for the deeper WR or the WR do not have the time to make a move to get separation then it becomes a long year.

Hopefully with some Beef on the oline they can hope off the NT and open some holes for the more experienced moreno to hit.

[getlynched47]

GL47-

You talk about your hate for Josh McDaniels and gush over TT's potential as the future of the Broncos at the same time.

Then you must give McD at least some credit for pulling the trigger and getting this possible franchise QB and athletic phenom to the team. He traded back twice to get comp so trading back into the 1st wasnt getting them killed. AND he got a legit replacement for Brandon Marshall.

Give the credit when its due Bro. He wanted this guy.

The bolded, underlined part remains to be seen.

Maybe Josh deserves some credit, but I still don't like him. There's just something about him that pisses me off :caked::pizza::bath:

[Tned]

But then IMHO he is a coach killer and will get love fired and probably martz also.

That will be five when that happens.

mike, bates, turner, lovie and mike II.

There is no basis for this. First, you have repeatedly pointed to the defense and Slowick (what's your 'cute' name for him, slowitt?) as the final straw for Shanahan getting canned.

Further, Bates and Turner's jobs have nothing to do with Jay, even if in some wild fantasy Jay is blamed for Mike being fired. Since McDaniels, an offensive coordinator, was hired, he and Bates had the same job, so there was no place for Bates.

As to Turner, I am not even sure how you can even attempt to make that leap, but I would love to see the attempt.

The level of hate for Jay and Mike, and resulting revisionist history, never ceases to amaze me. It shouldn't amaze me anymore, but still does.

[underrated29]

Every one seems to forget when jay came to town he did not have winning season since high school, he had a release issue, his footworks needed help and he did not read defenses at a NFL level.

Hmmmm jay still has a release issue, has happy feet and sure the hell STILL can't read defense.

Why should Tim be any different that a raw rookie that was not ready to start for us in 2006.

At least he seems to have coachable attitude and I'd guess does not drink, smoke and and **** in excess.




What are you talking about JR.?


Jay has a sound release and reads defenses very well. If you are going to bring up interceptions. That has to do with forcing the ball into 3 defenders and relying on his arm to get the ball through the defenders inthe flats. Jay is a very good QB, one who just has too much confidence in his arm.

[EMB6903]

Jay's release was actually kinda simular to Tebow's coming out, not as bad but he did bring it down from his waist and made that loop in his motion. Most people didnt notice because his arm is so strong he got away with it.

[Northman]

That may be taking things too far there. If we had peyton or tom behind our OL last year. No we probably would not be in the big dance, but we would be a whole lot better off... Lets not mistake that. They would keep the D honest, and Keep that dam Saftey out of the box. Not focus soley on marshall and so on and so forth. Plus Orton was not sacked that many times,,,,well atleast where he didnt fall down because seomeone brushed by him.

I agree, guys like Manning and company are very good at reading defenses and getting rid of the ball accurately and quickly. Throw in the fact that Manning had one "legitimate" wr in Wayne to throw too but still managed to use Collie and the other guy just as well tells me he can get the ball to the other guys on the team. Line is important but so is a very good QB who knows what to do when the line breaks down or when it seem that he has no weapons to use.

[Ravage!!!]

Jay's release was actually kinda simular to Tebow's coming out, not as bad but he did bring it down from his waist and made that loop in his motion. Most people didnt notice because his arm is so strong he got away with it.

Uhmm. no.

If that were true, you wouldn't see ex-NFL QBs like Ron Jaworski, Steve Young, Phil Simms, and others point out that Jay Cutler was the most "NFL ready" QB in the draft. They didn't say that because Jay had a long, stretched out delivery.

Ron Jaworski is one of the best at film break-down in the business.... I'm pretty confident he would have brought this up.

There are no similarities in their throwing motions/deliveries.

[JDL]

But when he tried to step up into the pocket because the DE or OLB blitzers were near him he more often than not found hamilton or casey in his face.

Plus when you have NO time to look for the deeper WR or the WR do not have the time to make a move to get separation then it becomes a long year.

Hopefully with some Beef on the oline they can hope off the NT and open some holes for the more experienced moreno to hit.

Actually, he's lost when he tries to avoid the rush, pulls the ball down and runs around like a 1 legged chicken with its head cut off. Like Orton, but he was responsible for at least a 1/3 of the sacks he took.

[MileHiWildcat]

Bad news for the Broncos. KC and OAK will be better this year and we saw what they did to the Broncos in the 2nd half of the season (What did KC run for, like 300 yards ?). Denver could finish last in the division.

[Ziggy]

Actually, he's lost when he tries to avoid the rush, pulls the ball down and runs around like a 1 legged chicken with its head cut off. Like Orton, but he was responsible for at least a 1/3 of the sacks he took.

Without the speed and agility.

[underrated29]

Bad news for the Broncos. KC and OAK will be better this year and we saw what they did to the Broncos in the 2nd half of the season (What did KC run for, like 300 yards ?). Denver could finish last in the division.



Not happening!!


We will be a lot better too. Where does this come from. Put it on record at worst we go 10-6. With or without Tebow. Probably without. The Broncos improved quite a bit....


I feel like I am the only person who does not get brainwashed by media and what not...(not saying you did.)

[Ziggy]

Not happening!!


We will be a lot better too. Where does this come from. Put it on record at worst we go 10-6. With or without Tebow. Probably without. The Broncos improved quite a bit....


I feel like I am the only person who does not get brainwashed by media and what not...(not saying you did.)

You're not alone in thinking that Denver will be better this season. We can talk about it all we want though, it has to be proven on the field. It's the offseason, and the draft is over. I'm afraid every forum is going to be like this for a while, which is why I'll probably take a break from it here soon.

[getlynched47]

Uhmm. no.

If that were true, you wouldn't see ex-NFL QBs like Ron Jaworski, Steve Young, Phil Simms, and others point out that Jay Cutler was the most "NFL ready" QB in the draft. They didn't say that because Jay had a long, stretched out delivery.

Ron Jaworski is one of the best at film break-down in the business.... I'm pretty confident he would have brought this up.

There are no similarities in their throwing motions/deliveries.

http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=166671

Enjoy this buddy :thumbsup:

[Northman]

We can talk about it all we want though, it has to be proven on the field.

This^

Everything else that gets said is irrelevant. Time to show it on the field and time to make the playoffs again.

[jhildebrand]

No need to check anything - offense starts on the OL, and hopefully that area will be much improved this year. Running game opens up the passing game, and the OL play is where everything starts, or where everything stops.

I am not sure I totally agree. This went from one of the top O lines in 08 to one of the not so great in 09. The line remained the same. The coaches remained the same. Some RB's changed and all of a sudden the line is an issue? :confused:

I am not so willing to pin as many issues on the line as others. Orton held the ball too long too often. I don't buy the Moreno excuses that defenders were in his face too often. Buckhalter ran behind the same line yet had drastically different results.

To bring this full circle, I like how Tebow can change some of this. He can beat people with his legs. Sure, he may not go through as many progressions as a Manning but the guy is a weapon. Orton, on the other hand has been a lame duck at times.

The more I stew on this Tebow pick the more I like it. I just wish the team would have drafted Tebow first, keep the picks even if it means you lose out on Thomas. Essentially it is Thomas that cost us a 2,3, and 4.

[All the supporters should be concerned that Hater #1 is actually open minded with regard to the Tebow pick :laugh:]

[jhildebrand]

Bad news for the Broncos. KC and OAK will be better this year and we saw what they did to the Broncos in the 2nd half of the season (What did KC run for, like 300 yards ?).

Somewhere Jamal Charles is still running
:mad:



Denver could finish last in the division.

Easily. It all depends on how this QB business shakes out. The AFC W wont be among the weakest divisions again for some time to come.

[Lonestar]

Actually, he's lost when he tries to avoid the rush, pulls the ball down and runs around like a 1 legged chicken with its head cut off. Like Orton, but he was responsible for at least a 1/3 of the sacks he took.

Look now I'm not an expert nor a coach but being Ex ORG I watch the line play a lot. So I have studied why a lot of these break downs occurred. I can say about 80% of the sacks or near sacks is based on Oline not doing their job in holding a block or in Hamilton's case (for years) and this past year they were pushed back into the pocket almost every play.

Before Harris went down the blocking was better as they were working more as a team they had each others back at least in pass protect mode.

PBS is not their forte whatsoever. They are simply getting beat one on one by more powerful players across the LOS.

The facts are hamilton and casey are both gone and are being replaced by guys that are bigger (about 15 to 25 pounds) , stronger and more versatile than hamilton and casey were. NO one can debate this fact.

Do that mean our problems are over, not in the slightest because now they have to get Harris back at 100%. Although I believe that Zane will eventually replace him at ORT. They also have to develop cohesiveness they have had for the past couple of years. i can't stress that enough the OLINE that has been together for years KNOWS what the guy next to him is going to do without thinking about it. They move in synch as ONE unit and then they re almost impossible to beat.

BY mid season next year they will have at least figured out what the guy next to him name is.:laugh::laugh:

Look at MIN OLINE they have been together for along time and they are Great. the same thing applied to KC when trent green was there needless to say he was almost a statue back there but their running game and his passing stats were on the moon. but then most of those guys had 6-10 years next to each other.

SO we will be better this coming year but look for mistakes to be made for time to time. But I'll bet that we will not see them being manhandled like Ben was last year, before he was benched.


As for Orton did he struggle? Sure he did, having a compound dislocated finger, wear a glove for eh first time in your career early in the season and then having a high ankle strain for most of the rest of the year did not help things either.

[TXBRONC]

Were we watching the same team? What I saw was an offensive line that was constantly getting pushed back, running backs being met in the backfield frequently, and the playbook being severely limited due to lack of protection for the QB and a poor running game.

I saw the same thing Tned saw. What I saw was quarterback who held onto the ball longer than he should have and one that preferred throw short over taking chances down field.

[Nomad]

Were we watching the same team? What I saw was an offensive line that was constantly getting pushed back, running backs being met in the backfield frequently, and the playbook being severely limited due to lack of protection for the QB and a poor running game.


I guess not, we much have been watching different teams. I saw Buckhalter running for 5 YPC, while Moreno was inconsistent in his carries. That is hard to blame on the line, but instead Moreno's rookie vision problems.

Orton typically had plenty of time to throw, but by design or fear of the pick, nearly always threw underneath or to WR's sitting on the LOS.

Actually I saw what both of you are saying! A rookie RB, QB with limited decision making/brick shoes possibly due to injuries but no excuses this year, poor oline play (blocking and penalties) and rookie HC who panicked/tunnel vision in his play calling and a defense who didn't give a shit towards the end!!

[Tned]

Ok, I'm bumping these, since there has been no explanation for why Jay is responsible for Bates and Turner's jobs.


Could you clarify this did you mean jay did not talk to mike or Nate?

I find it hard to believe it would be mike.

But then IMHO he is a coach killer and will get love fired and probably martz also.

That will be five when that happens.

mike, bates, turner, lovie and mike II.



There is no basis for this. First, you have repeatedly pointed to the defense and Slowick (what's your 'cute' name for him, slowitt?) as the final straw for Shanahan getting canned.

Further, Bates and Turner's jobs have nothing to do with Jay, even if in some wild fantasy Jay is blamed for Mike being fired. Since McDaniels, an offensive coordinator, was hired, he and Bates had the same job, so there was no place for Bates.

As to Turner, I am not even sure how you can even attempt to make that leap, but I would love to see the attempt.

The level of hate for Jay and Mike, and resulting revisionist history, never ceases to amaze me. It shouldn't amaze me anymore, but still does.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

To all of you;
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o300/reiko7176/ithoughtitwasfunny/Morgan_Freeman_has_a_kitten_on_his_.jpg

[Traveler]

I am not sure I totally agree. This went from one of the top O lines in 08 to one of the not so great in 09. The line remained the same. The coaches remained the same. Some RB's changed and all of a sudden the line is an issue? :confused:

I am not so willing to pin as many issues on the line as others. Orton held the ball too long too often. I don't buy the Moreno excuses that defenders were in his face too often. Buckhalter ran behind the same line yet had drastically different results.

You are correct to a point. We did have a top OL in 08. The distinction that should be made is the OL was built to run the WCO. The players were specifically chosen that fit that type of offensive scheme.

This is why I personally think you are a litlle off in your assumption that Orton was more responsible for the lack of continuity on the OL. Although his immobility was part of the equation.

Fact is, not all the players on the line were suited for the power based scheme McDaniels wanted to run. I tend to agree with others that the OL play was horrible. Specifically Hamilton and Wiegmann. You could even say that Clady had a bit of a sophmore slump.

Getting back to my point, the line play was horrible in the sense that we tried to blend both the WCO and a power running based scheme. We just didn't have the correct type of players or coaching to pull it off.

Bobby Turner, one of the best WCO running back coaches- Ever- and Rick Dennison, tutored by Alex Gibbs in the intricacies of teaching the motion(s) to be used by the linemen in the WCO were ill equipt to try and blend to the schemes.

The few times our running game was successful lst season was primarily when the line had the opportunity to do with they were accustomed-WCO. They stuggled mightily whenever they were required physically beat the man in front of them one on one.

Hamilton and Wiegmann were clearly dominated for much of the season once the Ravens provided the blueprint on how to attack and defeat our offense.

I'm glad McD has fully committed to his employing his offensive scheme. No more hybrid. Makes it easier to coach up the players.

Just imagine when they are running as smoothly as they did when we were running the WCO. It's gonna be a beautiful thing to see.

[TXBRONC]

I think it is because the coach doesn't LET him. I saw Scheffler WIDE open several time down the seem and deep. I saw a lot of people open down the field and they never even got a look.

I know Orton plays not to make a mistake but the knock on him is he does it to a fault.

We didn't see a concerted effort for the deep ball until the media hounded the issue for weeks.

Finally, this offense isn't wide open and down the field as much as or near as much as most offenses. We could probably check pro-football-reference.com and get a pretty good idea.

Finally,

I don't believe that at all. You're saying receivers were open deeper down field several times last (I agree they were) and the coach told his quarterback to ignore it and only work the first two thirds of the field? No way. I just can't see a coach thinking that his offense can consistently put together drives that require 8 plays or more to score a touchdown. You have be able to get big plays when you have the chance.

Again I think this offense is meant to be as wide open other offenses but I think its the quarterback that was holding it back.

[SOCALORADO.]

I don't believe that at all. You're saying receivers were open deeper down field several times last (I agree they were) and the coach told his quarterback to ignore it and only work the first two thirds of the field? No way. I just can't see a coach thinking that his offense can consistently put together drives that require 8 plays or more to score a touchdown. You have be able to get big plays when you have the chance.

Again I think this offense is meant to be as wide open other offenses but I think its the quarterback that was holding it back.

I think that is what hes saying. Orton just doesnt have the arm to throw deep. Cant do it. If you watch the guy on the rare occasions he does try to throw deep, he is just absolutely grunting and contorting his entire body to try to get the ball down the field. Its really kinda comical. He can dink and dunk, and thats about it. Once teams realized this, they just stacked the box, took away his intermediate passing lanes, and dared him to throw deep.
This is why he held onto the football too long, he was just looking for the intermediate WRs to get open, which didnt happen.
The O-line is not at fault for this, and Ortons penchant to fold like a wet paper towel at the slightest sense of defensive pressure, didnt help the situation. Something we wont have to worry about with Tebow.
The O-line was more at fault in the run game to me. MCD was trying to take players from a ZBS run system, and go to his power, mauler O-line system, and it didnt work. Buckhalter is just a shifty veteran, and he made the most of it. I give him alot of credit, and i am glad hes on the team. He deserves it. I think Moreno also compounded this issue as a rookie by not waiting for his holes to open up, and being a rookie and having a suspect O-line, he tried too hard. He will be much better this year, i have no doubt.

[GEM]

I think that is what hes saying. Orton just doesnt have the arm to throw deep. Cant do it. If you watch the guy on the rare occasions he does try to throw deep, he is just absolutely grunting and contorting his entire body to try to get the ball down the field. Its really kinda comical. He can dink and dunk, and thats about it. Once teams realized this, they just stacked the box, took away his intermediate passing lanes, and dared him to throw deep.
This is why he held onto the football too long, he was just looking for the intermediate WRs to get open, which didnt happen.
The O-line is not at fault for this, and Ortons penchant to fold like a wet paper towel at the slightest sense of defensive pressure, didnt help the situation. Something we wont have to worry about with Tebow.
The O-line was more at fault in the run game to me. MCD was trying to take players from a ZBS run system, and go to his power, mauler O-line system, and it didnt work. Buckhalter is just a shifty veteran, and he made the most of it. I give him alot of credit, and i am glad hes on the team. He deserves it. I think Moreno also compounded this issue as a rookie by not waiting for his holes to open up, and being a rookie and having a suspect O-line, he tried too hard. He will be much better this year, i have no doubt.

Other teams caught on alot quicker to Orton's strength than they did Plummer's bootleg. But once teams figure it out, it's done.

[TXBRONC]

I think that is what hes saying. Orton just doesnt have the arm to throw deep. Cant do it. If you watch the guy on the rare occasions he does try to throw deep, he is just absolutely grunting and contorting his entire body to try to get the ball down the field. Its really kinda comical. He can dink and dunk, and thats about it. Once teams realized this, they just stacked the box, took away his intermediate passing lanes, and dared him to throw deep.
This is why he held onto the football too long, he was just looking for the intermediate WRs to get open, which didnt happen.
The O-line is not at fault for this, and Ortons penchant to fold like a wet paper towel at the slightest sense of defensive pressure, didnt help the situation. Something we wont have to worry about with Tebow.
The O-line was more at fault in the run game to me. MCD was trying to take players from a ZBS run system, and go to his power, mauler O-line system, and it didnt work. Buckhalter is just a shifty veteran, and he made the most of it. I give him alot of credit, and i am glad hes on the team. He deserves it. I think Moreno also compounded this issue as a rookie by not waiting for his holes to open up, and being a rookie and having a suspect O-line, he tried too hard. He will be much better this year, i have no doubt.

I don't recall Orton contorting himself or grunting to throw the ball deep but seems be something he doesn't like to do because he's not very accurate with the deep ball and his natural instinct is to play it safe.

Remember Top told us that Orton in high school once threw a football 74 yards down field while falling backwards and with a 100 mph wind blowing in his face. :D

[claymore]

Tebow will be our starter by week 8 while Orton undergoes reconstructive ankle surgery.

[TXBRONC]

Tebow will be our starter by week 8 while Orton undergoes reconstructive ankle surgery.

How can this be if Qwinn starts week one? :lol:

[SOCALORADO.]

I don't recall Orton contorting himself or grunting to throw the ball deep but seems be something he doesn't like to do because he's not very accurate with the deep ball and his natural instinct is to play it safe.

Remember Top told us that Orton in high school once threw a football 74 yards down field while falling backwards and with a 100 mph wind blowing in his face. :D

Oh yeah! Thats right! "The Hurricane bowl"! It was a hurricane, monsoon, blizzard and he threw it into 100 mile winds coupled with snow, ice sleet, and debris from the toranado, all flying into his face, while swimming through the tidal wave from the tsunami. Everyone witnessing it was..:shocked:

[SOCALORADO.]

How can this be if Qwinn starts week one? :lol:

Qwinn will start at FB. Cmon, man.

[TXBRONC]

Qwinn will start at FB. Cmon, man.

Sorry I didn't get the message that Qwinn was being moved to fullback. :D

[SOCALORADO.]

Sorry I didn't get the message that Qwinn was being moved to fullback. :D

When Tebow graces your team or community for that matter with his presence, you can be sure that someone's moving to FB.

[arapaho2]

Not happening!!


We will be a lot better too. Where does this come from. Put it on record at worst we go 10-6. With or without Tebow. Probably without. The Broncos improved quite a bit....


I feel like I am the only person who does not get brainwashed by media and what not...(not saying you did.)


where did we get better? aside from the limited time we have a better dline..speaking about offense..where?

we replaced a probowl..100 catch per season recieving beast with a unproven rookie wr that has suspect route runnng abilities...a wr that had only 124 receptions in his entire college career

so if his lack of proper route running hampers him or keeps him as a situational player...you honestly thing gaff can equal the offense we lost in marshall

we traded our only pass catching TE and will more then likely rely on branson...who has a impressive 0 pro catches

decker will more then likely not beat out gaffney or lloyd for time

time will tell if the rookie linemen pay off...i have high hopes for JD..but still will he be better then seth olsen?

[TXBRONC]

When Tebow graces your team or community for that matter with his presence, you can be sure that someone's moving to FB.

Nah it will be Orton are he has that reconstructive ankle surgery that Clay mentioned. :lol:

[Lonestar]

You are correct to a point. We did have a top OL in 08. The distinction that should be made is the OL was built to run the WCO. The players were specifically chosen that fit that type of offensive scheme.

This is why I personally think you are a litlle off in your assumption that Orton was more responsible for the lack of continuity on the OL. Although his immobility was part of the equation.

Fact is, not all the players on the line were suited for the power based scheme McDaniels wanted to run. I tend to agree with others that the OL play was horrible. Specifically Hamilton and Wiegmann. You could even say that Clady had a bit of a sophmore slump.

Getting back to my point, the line play was horrible in the sense that we tried to blend both the WCO and a power running based scheme. We just didn't have the correct type of players or coaching to pull it off.

Bobby Turner, one of the best WCO running back coaches- Ever- and Rick Dennison, tutored by Alex Gibbs in the intricacies of teaching the motion(s) to be used by the linemen in the WCO were ill equipt to try and blend to the schemes.

The few times our running game was successful lst season was primarily when the line had the opportunity to do with they were accustomed-WCO. They stuggled mightily whenever they were required physically beat the man in front of them one on one.

Hamilton and Wiegmann were clearly dominated for much of the season once the Ravens provided the blueprint on how to attack and defeat our offense.

I'm glad McD has fully committed to his employing his offensive scheme. No more hybrid. Makes it easier to coach up the players.

Just imagine when they are running as smoothly as they did when we were running the WCO. It's gonna be a beautiful thing to see.

You bring valid IMO points about the coaches and players being ill equipped to run the PBS or for that matter pocket passing.

I have punded on this fro a couple of yeas that since we went to the Drop back style when dingier was here the year of 06 that our interior oline was not big enough to handle it all by themselves. so many times I saw hamilton in particular being pushed back into the pocket.

I'm sure there are stats out there some where to back that up but I know what I saw . now that does not mean that we always were sacked . But the number of picks, and scrambles certainly were up those years since.

Last year Orton had the high ankle sprain and while he could move on it they are something always on your mind and in most cases you are wrapped double tight and much higher than a normal sprain. Last year casey was not him self and when Harris went down we had huge issues from the point out. couple that together with a LESS than spectacular running game the O was an issue.


Now when Josh came to town the one thing he felt he did not have to change much was the "gifted" oline after all it was a top one from the year before.

there is no doubt in my mind that in talking with both Bobby and Rick he let them know what was expected and that was moving more to a PBS pulling guard run game.

I also suspect they said the oline could handle the changes, and that they could COACH them up to it.

I guess that both Bobby and Rick leaving says a lot towards whiter they could or wanted to makes those changes.

Hamilton being benched early in the season and then casey showing that he did not have it any more and getting cut about 12 minutes after the season was over :D shows that the OLINE that was good in 08 clearly could not hack PBS.

Josh brought in real OLINE coaches and now seems to have gotten those mean, nasty, bigger and stronger guys that this scheme requires.

I'll bet from what I have seen of Josh he would have done it last year if he had any inkling as to how bad they really turned out to be.

[underrated29]

where did we get better? aside from the limited time we have a better dline..speaking about offense..where?

we replaced a probowl..100 catch per season recieving beast with a unproven rookie wr that has suspect route runnng abilities...a wr that had only 124 receptions in his entire college career

so if his lack of proper route running hampers him or keeps him as a situational player...you honestly thing gaff can equal the offense we lost in marshall

we traded our only pass catching TE and will more then likely rely on branson...who has a impressive 0 pro catches

decker will more then likely not beat out gaffney or lloyd for time

time will tell if the rookie linemen pay off...i have high hopes for JD..but still will he be better then seth olsen?



Yes we lost a WR who scored 6 tds for us. Big deal. I do not know how many first downs he completed for us but IMO that was his biggest asset to us... I am sure that royal, decker, thomas, lloyd etc can pick up the 6tds and first downs we lost.


But here we go anyway.

Everyone will know the system now. No longer learning it in 1 offseason or on the fly. They will have a season together to gel and become a unit. Our DL improved DRASTICALLY from Jamal Williams. Bannan/green- eh but they will keep everyone fresh. Mcbath really came on last year. he will be improved. Ayers will also be improved, and supposedly we are going to be MORE ATTACKING defense than we were last year. Oh and then there is Perrish Cox a 1st rd grade CB. Yea- you can bring up Phonzy, but not every 1st rd grade CB sucks in his first year...look at DRC, Vontae, Flowers, etc etc...

On offense..quite easy to see my friend.

We have an OLINE now. Our Tackles have always been super studs, but now we got the beadle to back them up should one go down. We have a MAULING Center and new starting OG (olsen is the OG), that will not be on roller skates like hammy and weigman. These new guys are big, strong and powerful. Our OL will open up tons and tons more wholes for the RB, who also will do better now that he is no longer a rookie. Also the line will buy ORton a few more seconds..

The TE thing- Branzon or whatever imo wont be of impact. It will be Graham and Quinn (richard)...They can both catch and both block. If we need a receiving type then we will put in a WR. We are now a big and powerful OL/offense that will bully our way for first downs instead of hoping brandon can break tackles or knowshon avoid 5 players to get them...

In addition to all that, we do not play 9 of the top 10 defenses this year. We do not play 8 of the top 15 offenses this year. Our schedule is quite a bit easier than last.




There is no possible way ANYONE can justify that we got worse or stayed the same. People who try are not looking at the big picture or are pessimist or pissed about losing brandon, drafting tebow etc. We will go minimum (aside from major Inj**y Bug) 10-6....I personally think 11-5.

[Northman]

Tebow will be our starter by week 8 while Orton undergoes reconstructive ankle surgery.

Thats just all kinds of wrong. :lol:

[arapaho2]

Yes we lost a WR who scored 6 tds for us. Big deal. I do not know how many first downs he completed for us but IMO that was his biggest asset to us... I am sure that royal, decker, thomas, lloyd etc can pick up the 6tds and first downs we lost.


But here we go anyway.

Everyone will know the system now. No longer learning it in 1 offseason or on the fly. They will have a season together to gel and become a unit. Our DL improved DRASTICALLY from Jamal Williams. Bannan/green- eh but they will keep everyone fresh. Mcbath really came on last year. he will be improved. Ayers will also be improved, and supposedly we are going to be MORE ATTACKING defense than we were last year. Oh and then there is Perrish Cox a 1st rd grade CB. Yea- you can bring up Phonzy, but not every 1st rd grade CB sucks in his first year...look at DRC, Vontae, Flowers, etc etc...

On offense..quite easy to see my friend.

We have an OLINE now. Our Tackles have always been super studs, but now we got the beadle to back them up should one go down. We have a MAULING Center and new starting OG (olsen is the OG), that will not be on roller skates like hammy and weigman. These new guys are big, strong and powerful. Our OL will open up tons and tons more wholes for the RB, who also will do better now that he is no longer a rookie. Also the line will buy ORton a few more seconds..

The TE thing- Branzon or whatever imo wont be of impact. It will be Graham and Quinn (richard)...They can both catch and both block. If we need a receiving type then we will put in a WR. We are now a big and powerful OL/offense that will bully our way for first downs instead of hoping brandon can break tackles or knowshon avoid 5 players to get them...

In addition to all that, we do not play 9 of the top 10 defenses this year. We do not play 8 of the top 15 offenses this year. Our schedule is quite a bit easier than last.




There is no possible way ANYONE can justify that we got worse or stayed the same. People who try are not looking at the big picture or are pessimist or pissed about losing brandon, drafting tebow etc. We will go minimum (aside from major Inj**y Bug) 10-6....I personally think 11-5.


you know if your gonna spout off facts at least make them correct

marshall had 10 tds in 09...101 rec..56 of those for first downs...1102 yards..with 502 comeing after the catch...thats alot of offense to make up

also notice i said defense aside

as for the offense

again the line has some youth...but you cannot say they will without a doubt be better..unless you are a decendant of naustrodamus
as for seth i know he is the gaurd..but earlier team news had him as the number one contender for center specially after weigman was released
even if jd starts can we honestly say a rookie will master the line duties required for a nfl center imediatly?

i also dont think the oline was the big trouble last year..one season before they were one of the best...hillis had a 5.0 ypc in 08...buck had a 5.4 ypa in the same scheme and oline as the young knowshon and his 3.8

as for TEs...quinn had 12 rec in his entire college career..this is a direct quote from his draft bio : He will never be the type that will stretch the field and his receiving skills might never develop...so good luck with him replacing TS in the role of pass catching TE
as for grahm...he had a mere 36 passes directed at him...he dropped 5 of them..grahm is a blocking TE as is quinn...neither is or was or ever will be a recieving threat like TS was

as for your scheduling theory..again get yourt facts straight...we played five games in the top 10 of defenses..not 9...but you overlook the fact we also played five games agaisnt teams in the bottom ten of defenses

and if you win an extra game or two ..because your schedule is way easier...does that make you a better team?

[Northman]

and if you win an extra game or two ..because your schedule is way easier...does that make you a better team?

There is so much parity in the NFL that no schedule is truly easy.

[Cugel]

While it is easy to mock the very idea of Tim Tebow as a "franchise QB" since he hasn't thrown a pass in the NFL yet and there's a lot of reasons to think he won't ever be particularly great, after reconsideration the initial post is RIGHT.

McDaniels is fully committed to Tebow. He IS going to be the "franchise QB" of the Broncos as long as McDaniels is here.

Of course, unless the Broncos win THIS season, both get into the playoffs and win a playoff game McDaniels job will be in jeopardy.

If they tank like last year McDaniels will be gone and the new coach will decide whether to keep Tebow or dump him the way McDaniels dumped Cutler.

But, for now, Tebow for better or worse IS the face of the franchise and the guy McDaniels wants to organize his team around.

God help us if he's wrong! :coffee:

[arapaho2]

There is so much parity in the NFL that no schedule is truly easy.


duuur....i was responding to unders post that said our schedule was easier this season

[SOCALORADO.]

While it is easy to mock the very idea of Tim Tebow as a "franchise QB" since he hasn't thrown a pass in the NFL yet and there's a lot of reasons to think he won't ever be particularly great, after reconsideration the initial post is RIGHT.

McDaniels is fully committed to Tebow. He IS going to be the "franchise QB" of the Broncos as long as McDaniels is here.

Of course, unless the Broncos win THIS season, both get into the playoffs and win a playoff game McDaniels job will be in jeopardy.

If they tank like last year McDaniels will be gone and the new coach will decide whether to keep Tebow or dump him the way McDaniels dumped Cutler.

But, for now, Tebow for better or worse IS the face of the franchise and the guy McDaniels wants to organize his team around.

God help us if he's wrong! :coffee:

Highly doubtful. MCD is going nowhere.

[TXBRONC]

While it is easy to mock the very idea of Tim Tebow as a "franchise QB" since he hasn't thrown a pass in the NFL yet and there's a lot of reasons to think he won't ever be particularly great, after reconsideration the initial post is RIGHT.

McDaniels is fully committed to Tebow. He IS going to be the "franchise QB" of the Broncos as long as McDaniels is here.

Of course, unless the Broncos win THIS season, both get into the playoffs and win a playoff game McDaniels job will be in jeopardy.

If they tank like last year McDaniels will be gone and the new coach will decide whether to keep Tebow or dump him the way McDaniels dumped Cutler.

But, for now, Tebow for better or worse IS the face of the franchise and the guy McDaniels wants to organize his team around.

God help us if he's wrong! :coffee:

I agree with most everything you said execpt for the part about this season. If McDaniels gets the playoffs I don't think his job will be in jeopardy. I think the only thing that could put him in harms way is if team implodes wins only a handful of games. If he wins 7 or 8 the heat will go up a little more imo. But if he just makes the playoffs and team doesn't win I don't see how Bowlen wouldn't see that as anything other than the team heading in the right direction.

[Mike]

While it is easy to mock the very idea of Tim Tebow as a "franchise QB" since he hasn't thrown a pass in the NFL yet and there's a lot of reasons to think he won't ever be particularly great, after reconsideration the initial post is RIGHT.

McDaniels is fully committed to Tebow. He IS going to be the "franchise QB" of the Broncos as long as McDaniels is here.

Of course, unless the Broncos win THIS season, both get into the playoffs and win a playoff game McDaniels job will be in jeopardy.

If they tank like last year McDaniels will be gone and the new coach will decide whether to keep Tebow or dump him the way McDaniels dumped Cutler.

But, for now, Tebow for better or worse IS the face of the franchise and the guy McDaniels wants to organize his team around.

God help us if he's wrong! :coffee:

I disagree regarding the playoffs or bust. I think, if anything, the addition of Tebow will cause Bowlen to give McD a couple of additional seasons.

[underrated29]

you know if your gonna spout off facts at least make them correct

marshall had 10 tds in 09...101 rec..56 of those for first downs...1102 yards..with 502 comeing after the catch...thats alot of offense to make up

also notice i said defense aside

as for the offense

again the line has some youth...but you cannot say they will without a doubt be better..unless you are a decendant of naustrodamus
as for seth i know he is the gaurd..but earlier team news had him as the number one contender for center specially after weigman was released
even if jd starts can we honestly say a rookie will master the line duties required for a nfl center imediatly?

i also dont think the oline was the big trouble last year..one season before they were one of the best...hillis had a 5.0 ypc in 08...buck had a 5.4 ypa in the same scheme and oline as the young knowshon and his 3.8

as for TEs...quinn had 12 rec in his entire college career..this is a direct quote from his draft bio : He will never be the type that will stretch the field and his receiving skills might never develop...so good luck with him replacing TS in the role of pass catching TE
as for grahm...he had a mere 36 passes directed at him...he dropped 5 of them..grahm is a blocking TE as is quinn...neither is or was or ever will be a recieving threat like TS was

as for your scheduling theory..again get yourt facts straight...we played five games in the top 10 of defenses..not 9...but you overlook the fact we also played five games agaisnt teams in the bottom ten of defenses

and if you win an extra game or two ..because your schedule is way easier...does that make you a better team?



I am pretty sure we can say that walton and olsen will be head and shoulders better than hammy and weig...Almost anyone could be in the power scheme. Mcd would not have already named them the starters if he did also not think so.


As for replacing brandon. 10 tds. that is tougher, but not unbearable. The 56 first downs. That is like what 3 first downs a game. I think our guys can pick up that slack. yes, brandon is a beast with YAC- but thats it---it can be replaced. The TDs overall might be, by one person, you are probably correct that that will not happen.


No- none of the guys on the roster are like Scheffy. But Mcd does not use his TE that way anyway so I fail to see how that matters or is relevant. Last year he got by with what he had and did what he could do. This year someone will be in to take his place. I know quinn only had 12 rec...one of the reasons I was not fond of drafting him. But he can still catch and more importantly block. Same with graham. Our TE are not rec. threats. they block first catch 2nd.


I dont overlook the fact we played easy defenses. Oak and KC make up 4 of those games right there. But you can not tell me that this:

NE,DAL,PHIL,NYG,INDY,BALT,PITS,SD,WAS,CINCY, is sooo much easier than:

JAX,SEA,INDY,TEN,BAL,NYJ,9ERS,STL,ARZ,HOU,SD



last year we played atleast 6 playoff teams..Maybe more, but I can not remember if the giants or steel made the playoffs, I do not think they did.

This year we have 3 or 4. Indy,Bal,NyJ-AZ-did they make it?

*note I dont count division games as we always have them*

and the teams we do face this year instead are crappy sea and stl, 8-8 houston and tenn and 9ers. Plus streaky and worse AZ, and bi polar Jax (who always beast us though)..

Our schedule is much softer this year. Of course things change drastically every year, but there is no denying Knowshon, orton the OL and anyone else on offense should fair a lot better..balt,ten,9ers, jets are the only real tough defenses I see. The rest are average.

[Cugel]

Highly doubtful. Wade Phillips is going nowhere.

There! I've fixed it for you! :coffee:

This is the NFL: the "Not For Long" league. Coaches either win or get fired. Period.

For long critics called Shanahan the "coach Teflon" because nothing seemed to impact his job security. But, that's all gone. Bowlen brought McDaniels in because of "his commitment to winning."

Well, this will be year two -- time for some actual "winning."

Bowlen owed Shanahan his first two championships. That buys a lot of loyalty. He owes McDaniels NOTHING.

It's win or goodbye!

Now you can insist, without bothering to take the last 10 games of 2009 into account, that the Broncos are going to be great so McDaniels will keep his job.

But, if you think he can lose and still stick around, forget it! If this team has the same kind of season as last year where they lose 8 of 10 games, and finish out of the playoffs again for the 5th straight year, McDaniels WILL be fired.

And if you think differently, you got another think coming! :coffee:

[SOCALORADO.]

There! I've fixed it for you! :coffee:

This is the NFL: the "Not For Long" league. Coaches either win or get fired. Period.

For long critics called Shanahan the "coach Teflon" because nothing seemed to impact his job security. But, that's all gone. Bowlen brought McDaniels in because of "his commitment to winning."

Well, this will be year two -- time for some actual "winning."

Bowlen owed Shanahan his first two championships. That buys a lot of loyalty. He owes McDaniels NOTHING.

It's win or goodbye!

Now you can insist, without bothering to take the last 10 games of 2009 into account, that the Broncos are going to be great so McDaniels will keep his job.

But, if you think he can lose and still stick around, forget it! If this team has the same kind of season as last year where they lose 8 of 10 games, and finish out of the playoffs again for the 5th straight year, McDaniels WILL be fired.

And if you think differently, you got another think coming! :coffee:

Highly doubtful. If anything the addition of Tebow with Bowlen's full knowledge and agreement prior to the pick only allows for MCD lasting 3 more years regardless of record.
Either way, such is life!

[underrated29]

There! I've fixed it for you! :coffee:

This is the NFL: the "Not For Long" league. Coaches either win or get fired. Period.

For long critics called Shanahan the "coach Teflon" because nothing seemed to impact his job security. But, that's all gone. Bowlen brought McDaniels in because of "his commitment to winning."

Well, this will be year two -- time for some actual "winning."

Bowlen owed Shanahan his first two championships. That buys a lot of loyalty. He owes McDaniels NOTHING.

It's win or goodbye!

Now you can insist, without bothering to take the last 10 games of 2009 into account, that the Broncos are going to be great so McDaniels will keep his job.

But, if you think he can lose and still stick around, forget it! If this team has the same kind of season as last year where they lose 8 of 10 games, and finish out of the playoffs again for the 5th straight year, McDaniels WILL be fired.

And if you think differently, you got another think coming! :coffee:



A flower does not bloom overnight.
Josh has what it takes it seems to be that coach. He just needs to get his team in order. I think at minimum he has 3 years unless we go 5-11 or some insane raiders type record.

[TXBRONC]

I disagree regarding the playoffs or bust. I think, if anything, the addition of Tebow will cause Bowlen to give McD a couple of additional seasons.

Do you think Bowlen would give him extra time even if the team completely fell apart this coming season? I could see an epic collapse being problematic.

[G_Money]

If we go 3-13, Josh could be out.

But we've got a strike year coming up, and we're drafted our QB of The Future (tm) so McDaniels will get to say, "Hey, this is the best I can do with Orton, that's why I drafted Tebow in the first place!" so he'll get a pass on a mediocre year this year offensively. If our defense implodes (ie, if Martindale can't actually run one) then Josh could be in trouble, but if we're treading water and getting our young players to work together then he should be fine.

I have trouble seeing him getting less than three, and probably 4 years. He's not Cam Cameron or Jim Zorn.

We don't know how good he can be, but we know how bad he isn't. And finding out what his coaching upside is will take longer than this year. Unless Pat forgets how many years Josh has been his coach or we start playing like the Raiders of the last half-dozen years, I don't see him on the hotseat this year.

Bowlen's in no hurry to go head coach shopping again. Josh'll get his chance to put in His hand-picked-and-groomed QB into His offense, with His defensive coordinator running His defense. There won't be pesky Shanahan holdovers in the mix and his tenure won't be prematurely axed. McDaniels will get his chance to succeed or fail by doing it His way - as he should.

~G

[getlynched47]

I'm glad Tim Tebow is here now, but McDaniels needs to make the playoffs.

Playoffs were an expectation prior to Tebow coming to town. I don't see why that changes.

If we don't make playoffs, McDaniels is on the hot-seat. I might go far enough to say that we should fire his ass if we do worse than 8-8 this season.

And to those of you that say McDaniels bought himself more time by drafting Tim Tebow, that argument is stupid and has no validity.

Dennis Green drafted Matt Leinart prior to the 2006 season. They had a bad season and Dennis Green was fired right after that season. Leinart didn't buy Green more time, and Green was easily the more accomplished coach between McDaniels and himself.

[TXBRONC]

I'm glad Tim Tebow is here now, but McDaniels needs to make the playoffs.

Playoffs were an expectation prior to Tebow coming to town. I don't see why that changes.

If we don't make playoffs, McDaniels is on the hot-seat. I might go far enough to say that we should fire his ass if we do worse than 8-8 this season.

And to those of you that say McDaniels bought himself more time by drafting Tim Tebow, that argument is stupid and has no validity.

Dennis Green drafted Matt Leinart prior to the 2006 season. They had a bad season and Dennis Green was fired right after that season. Leinart didn't buy Green more time, and Green was easily the more accomplished coach between McDaniels and himself.

True, however the Cardinals also went 5-11. If McDaniels avoids that kind of season then I don't see him being put on the hot seat.

[G_Money]

Denny Green went 6-10, 5-11 and 5-11 in his 3 years in the desert. He didn't get fired because of one season, he got fired for 16-32 in 3 seasons and no progress.

If McDaniels goes 16-32 in 3 seasons yeah, I think he'll get fired too. We'd be going 4-12 the next 2 years - that'll make an owner pull the trigger.

But I can't think of a guy who got fired after two years when the first one was .500. I just can't, and I don't expect McDaniels to be a part of that trivia question unless we absolutely collapse. I've always thought Josh was gonna get 3 years. Now I think he'll probably get 4 unless the defense blows up and we lose a ton of games.

Would it behoove Josh to post a winning season? Yeah. But 7-9 won't submarine him just yet.

~G

[Dortoh]

So the face of our franchise is a 3rd string qb? Its worse then I first thought ;)

[Ziggy]

So the face of our franchise is a 3rd string qb? Its worse then I first thought ;)

Welcome back Dortoh.

[Northman]

Denny Green went 6-10, 5-11 and 5-11 in his 3 years in the desert. He didn't get fired because of one season, he got fired for 16-32 in 3 seasons and no progress.

If McDaniels goes 16-32 in 3 seasons yeah, I think he'll get fired too. We'd be going 4-12 the next 2 years - that'll make an owner pull the trigger.

But I can't think of a guy who got fired after two years when the first one was .500. I just can't, and I don't expect McDaniels to be a part of that trivia question unless we absolutely collapse. I've always thought Josh was gonna get 3 years. Now I think he'll probably get 4 unless the defense blows up and we lose a ton of games.

Would it behoove Josh to post a winning season? Yeah. But 7-9 won't submarine him just yet.

~G

Ive seen guys get fired after having 2 out of 3 winning seasons with a franchise. Nothing is out of the question.

[TXBRONC]

So the face of our franchise is a 3rd string qb? Its worse then I first thought ;)

Good to see you back Dotoh. :beer:

[GGMoogly]

Bowlen has as big an ego as anyone and I don't see him admitting to any kind of mistake with McD. He yanked Wade because Shanny was available (though that Raider game helped). He won't be doing that to this kid - though I wish he would.

Still, Tebow's my guy. He's a winner, pure and simple, and has been at every level he's played.

[Lonestar]

While it is easy to mock the very idea of Tim Tebow as a "franchise QB" since he hasn't thrown a pass in the NFL yet and there's a lot of reasons to think he won't ever be particularly great, after reconsideration the initial post is RIGHT.

McDaniels is fully committed to Tebow. He IS going to be the "franchise QB" of the Broncos as long as McDaniels is here.

Of course, unless the Broncos win THIS season, both get into the playoffs and win a playoff game McDaniels job will be in jeopardy.

If they tank like last year McDaniels will be gone and the new coach will decide whether to keep Tebow or dump him the way McDaniels dumped Cutler.

But, for now, Tebow for better or worse IS the face of the franchise and the guy McDaniels wants to organize his team around.

God help us if he's wrong! :coffee:

Do you really think that Pat was not fully on board with us taking Tebow?

Unless Josh took Tebow without him OK'ing it the guys is golden for at least 3 rd year on the squad.

No way Pat is going to dump Josh unless we wind up with a 2 to 4 wins season this next year and I think even Vegas odds would be HUGE on that happening.


Pat likes Josh and the NFl sales of Tebow stuff is going go off the charts this was a pure win win for Pat, Josh and the Broncos. He will be a spectacle in every away game we play this yea, and IF he does no increase home game sales I'd be surprised. Yes I know there is a waiting list for Season tickets but I'd bet since friday morning, it got a lot longer.

Tebow transcends just the local market he got so much hype the last few years. A marketing windfall.

I'll bet even as a non starter he will have his own TV show. they are lining up to talk to his agent already.

[TimTebow15MVP]

tim tebow is a franchise qb and were lucky to have a guy like this.

[Lonestar]

Denny Green went 6-10, 5-11 and 5-11 in his 3 years in the desert. He didn't get fired because of one season, he got fired for 16-32 in 3 seasons and no progress.

If McDaniels goes 16-32 in 3 seasons yeah, I think he'll get fired too. We'd be going 4-12 the next 2 years - that'll make an owner pull the trigger.

But I can't think of a guy who got fired after two years when the first one was .500. I just can't, and I don't expect McDaniels to be a part of that trivia question unless we absolutely collapse. I've always thought Josh was gonna get 3 years. Now I think he'll probably get 4 unless the defense blows up and we lose a ton of games.

Would it behoove Josh to post a winning season? Yeah. But 7-9 won't submarine him just yet.

~G

Worst case senario is Wink can;t do the job the players do not respect him ETC,

Even if that were to happen without eh talent level we seem to have and the newbies that are going to make the team.

The defense unless gutted by injuries should be better ALL Year this coming season just because we have "real " DL guys not make shift that was all there was guys.

The LBs will have one more year under their belt and while not 4 all pros there is talent there to harness. Secondary should be fine now that they will not have to play at the LOS to help slow down (if not stop) the run and there should be as much if not more heat on the QB this yea than last year.

Worst case is Josh handles the DC spot until they can bring another old pro to do it. while his most recent job was OC and QB coach he also spent time on the defensive side before those last couple of jobs in NE.

besides what does a OC do but figure out how to beat defenses, I always thought the a great OC could reverse engineer the defense so they could stop the opposing Offense week after week.
A true DC does not get into the trenches and teach technique as much as design defense based n your talent .

anywayI do not see the D taking a dump in any case since there was an infusion of talent on the DLINE this year.

[TXBRONC]

tim tebow is a franchise qb and were lucky to have a guy like this.

Imho he's not franchise quarterback until he proves it on the field.

[GGMoogly]

Imho he's not franchise quarterback until he proves it on the field.

That's fair enough. As for me, pass the kool-aid, I believe!

[getlynched47]

Imho he's not franchise quarterback until he proves it on the field.

We're not talking Jay Cutler franchise QB (putting up statistics)

He IS the franchise quarterback because he represents this franchise now, even as a 3rd or 4th string QB. Tim Tebow is the face of this franchise as a rookie. I do agree he needs to prove that he can win in the NFL.

Kinda comes with the hype of being the best college quarterback EVER, ya know? :werd:

[Northman]

Imho he's not franchise quarterback until he proves it on the field.

Exactly. The guy hasnt proven shit yet so no, he's not a franchise QB till he actually does something to merit that label.

[Ravage!!!]

We're not talking Jay Cutler franchise QB (putting up statistics)

He IS the franchise quarterback because he represents this franchise now, even as a 3rd or 4th string QB. Tim Tebow is the face of this franchise as a rookie. I do agree he needs to prove that he can win in the NFL.

Kinda comes with the hype of being the best college quarterback EVER, ya know? :werd:

he's not the best college QB ever.....

If he were the best QB ever... he would have been the #1 overall pick, without a doubt. But he wasn't... hell, he wasn't even rated as the top 3 QBs in this draft.

John Elway still... STILL... has the highest rating of ANY player to come out of college. He played QB, and he didn't win a National Championship.

Thats what happens when people actually watch the play on the field, rather than go by 'wins' ... since those are team records.

Leinart won two national championships, and a Heisman, as well.....holy crap, and is left handed

[Tned]

We're not talking Jay Cutler franchise QB (putting up statistics)

He IS the franchise quarterback because he represents this franchise now, even as a 3rd or 4th string QB. Tim Tebow is the face of this franchise as a rookie. I do agree he needs to prove that he can win in the NFL.

Kinda comes with the hype of being the best college quarterback EVER, ya know? :werd:

Sorry, GL47, you are using the term 'franchise QB' differently than almost anyone else. What you are referring to is the marketing face, the Madden Cover Boy, of the Broncos, not a franchise QB as discussed on message boards, talked about by the talking heads on TV or written about in papers.

A 'franchise' QB is one that is among the best in the league, that can lead the team for years to come, and is considered good enough to win championships. It has nothing to do with being the 'face' of the organization.

You can 'almost' get away with calling Matt Stafford a franchise QB before he takes a snap, but even then he is usually going to be referred to as someone that "is believed to be the Lion's new franchise QB", because it is still based on potential.

In the case of Tebow, the NFL experts are split. Some don't even think he is starter material, period, forget being an elite or franchise QB.

So, while I am excited about what Tebow 'could be' and am hoping he will be our franchise QB soon, that is proven on the field, not on TV, media guides, calendars or jerseys.

[TXBRONC]

We're not talking Jay Cutler franchise QB (putting up statistics)

He IS the franchise quarterback because he represents this franchise now, even as a 3rd or 4th string QB. Tim Tebow is the face of this franchise as a rookie. I do agree he needs to prove that he can win in the NFL.

Kinda comes with the hype of being the best college quarterback EVER, ya know? :werd:

I can't say I agree. He has high name recognition but the face of the franchise? There's no way that 2nd, 3rd, or 4th string quarterback is a franchise quarterback. One of the basic elements to being a franchise quarterback is being a starter. A franchise quarterback is one that you build your offense around.

[jhildebrand]

He'll be a franchise QB when the team/franchise is behind him. Franchise winning QB's win games.

He may, however, be the face or new posterboy of the Broncos.

[jhildebrand]

Could you clarify this did you mean jay did not talk to mike or Nate?

I find it hard to believe it would be mike.

But then IMHO he is a coach killer and will get love fired and probably martz also.

That will be five when that happens.

mike, bates, turner, lovie and mike II.

Shanahan and Cutler had 0 football related contact the final 8 weeks Shanahan was here. In fact, the only comments they had were very limited and it was Shanahan trying to coach Cutler on how to address the media. We all know he had terrible pressers because he couldn't stand the media.

[jhildebrand]

What are you talking about JR.?


Jay has a sound release and reads defenses very well. If you are going to bring up interceptions. That has to do with forcing the ball into 3 defenders and relying on his arm to get the ball through the defenders inthe flats. Jay is a very good QB, one who just has too much confidence in his arm.

Jay Cutler still has an immensely large problem with a LB dropping deep into coverage. That is where his INT rate began to creep up and where the majority of them come from. That and forcing the ball as you mentioned.

[jhildebrand]

You are correct to a point. We did have a top OL in 08. The distinction that should be made is the OL was built to run the WCO. The players were specifically chosen that fit that type of offensive scheme.

This is why I personally think you are a litlle off in your assumption that Orton was more responsible for the lack of continuity on the OL. Although his immobility was part of the equation.

Fact is, not all the players on the line were suited for the power based scheme McDaniels wanted to run. I tend to agree with others that the OL play was horrible. Specifically Hamilton and Wiegmann. You could even say that Clady had a bit of a sophmore slump.

Getting back to my point, the line play was horrible in the sense that we tried to blend both the WCO and a power running based scheme. We just didn't have the correct type of players or coaching to pull it off.

Bobby Turner, one of the best WCO running back coaches- Ever- and Rick Dennison, tutored by Alex Gibbs in the intricacies of teaching the motion(s) to be used by the linemen in the WCO were ill equipt to try and blend to the schemes.

The few times our running game was successful lst season was primarily when the line had the opportunity to do with they were accustomed-WCO. They stuggled mightily whenever they were required physically beat the man in front of them one on one.

Hamilton and Wiegmann were clearly dominated for much of the season once the Ravens provided the blueprint on how to attack and defeat our offense.

I'm glad McD has fully committed to his employing his offensive scheme. No more hybrid. Makes it easier to coach up the players.

Just imagine when they are running as smoothly as they did when we were running the WCO. It's gonna be a beautiful thing to see.

Then by your argument, Josh McDaniels should shoulder a large part of the blame for those issues.

[Tned]

Then by your argument, Josh McDaniels should shoulder a large part of the blame for those issues.

Just like when Bates tried to run a defense that the personnel weren't capable of running or when Heimerdinger changed the offense from a misdirection, play action, bootleg offense into a straight drop back/shotgun offense behind a small O-line that couldn't straight up pass block.

A coach has to use a scheme and call plays that the players on the field are capable of executing.

[jhildebrand]

Just like when Bates tried to run a defense that the personnel weren't capable of running or when Heimerdinger changed the offense from a misdirection, play action, bootleg offense into a straight drop back/shotgun offense behind a small O-line that couldn't straight up pass block.

A coach has to use a scheme and call plays that the players on the field are capable of executing.

Exactly what I was getting at. He had the league most roster turnover and knew or should have known who is players were and what their limitations were.

Personally, running two systems of any kind ZBS/PBS or two players at one position i.e. QB means you don't have one.

Going into this season the Broncos still don't have an identity. That should be a concern!

[Traveler]

Then by your argument, Josh McDaniels should shoulder a large part of the blame for those issues.

Can't really argue this point. He is the coach.

I will say the only mitigating circumstance was he was basically told by the owner that Dennison & Turner were to remain on the staff.

Hence, his decision to try and meld the two schemes.

[Tned]

I will say the only mitigating circumstance was he was basically told by the owner that Dennison & Turner were to remain on the staff.

Hence, his decision to try and meld the two schemes.

Do you think this was the case? What Bowlen claimed publicly was that 5 coaches (Turner, Dennison, Bates and I can't remember the other two) were retained beyond the Shanahan firing and the new coach would decide whether or not they stayed on for the '09 season. When McDaniels was hired, he let Bates go.

Now I know that Bates didn't have the long history with the team that Dennison and Turner did, but at least the way it was publicly presented (take with grain of salt), it was up to McDaniels whether or not to keep Turner and Dennison.

[Drill-N-Fill]

I hated the pick, and I am warming up to him also. I think its natural, that any player that comes to "your team" that you have to feel like that.

But lets face it, if the Chiefs got this guy, we would be laughing on their faces.

Does he have all the intangibles? Yes, but does he have what it takes to be a QB in a pro style offense, I don't think so. And thats just my opinion from watching vids and games. I hope I am wrong.

[Tned-Mobile]

I hated the pick, and I am warming up to him also. I think its natural, that any player that comes to "your team" that you have to feel like that.

But lets face it, if the Chiefs got this guy, we would be laughing on their faces.

Does he have all the intangibles? Yes, but does he have what it takes to be a QB in a pro style offense, I don't think so. And thats just my opinion from watching vids and games. I hope I am wrong.

It happened last year with Orton. It was pretty funny watching the message boards. It started out with him being a worthless bum. Then, over the matter of a few days, people started 'talking' themselves into him being a 'good' pickup, then shortly after that, they started the "he's better than Cutler" and then "he's a top 10 QB".

I think it's just natural that it happens when a player comes to our team, but funny none the less.

[TXBRONC]

Can't really argue this point. He is the coach.

I will say the only mitigating circumstance was he was basically told by the owner that Dennison & Turner were to remain on the staff.

Hence, his decision to try and meld the two schemes.

That's not exactly what I remember Trav. What I remember is that Bowlen encouraged McDaniels to keep Bates, Dennison and Turner on the staff but basically told he had too that's not Bowlen's style. If McDaniels really had insisted that he needed different coaches Bowlen would have backed him 100%.

[TXBRONC]

Do you think this was the case? What Bowlen claimed publicly was that 5 coaches (Turner, Dennison, Bates and I can't remember the other two) were retained beyond the Shanahan firing and the new coach would decide whether or not they stayed on for the '09 season. When McDaniels was hired, he let Bates go.

Now I know that Bates didn't have the long history with the team that Dennison and Turner did, but at least the way it was publicly presented (take with grain of salt), it was up to McDaniels whether or not to keep Turner and Dennison.

Bowlen realized that to force those coaches on McDaniels would be undermine McDaniels right off the bat.

[T.K.O.]

I understand man. I felt EXACTLY the same way. You can cycle through all of my "No Tebow in the 1st" posts, and I shared the same sentiments with you.

Although I disagree on the 1st round QB's should help your team immediately thing. Many many NFL teams sit their quarterbacks and don't start them from day 1. It stunts the progress of most quarterbacks if you start them from day 1. Just because a quarterback won't start from day one does not mean that you should not spend a 1st round pick on them.

I tend to be on that "1st round picks must have an immediate impact" camp like yourself, but I make an exception in this case.

I don't know if I've ever seen a player so dedicated, passionate, confident, and just awesome (i can't think of a better word at 12:30 AM :lol:) than Tim Tebow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96vAbtpakLg

When this guy says he's going to do something, he does it. He delivers. He controls what he can, he destroys obstacles. He embraces challenges. He succeeds.

I have NEVER talked a player up like this before. Never. I just don't do it. But Tebow, man that kid is something special and I'm proud to have him representing our franchise. :salute::salute::salute:

i remember watching that clip the day it happened and thinking....man that dude is a great leader.to go out after a loss and take responsibility and then tell the fans what he did about how he would lead the rest of the year.....pretty cool.

[TXBRONC]

I hated the pick, and I am warming up to him also. I think its natural, that any player that comes to "your team" that you have to feel like that.

But lets face it, if the Chiefs got this guy, we would be laughing on their faces.

Does he have all the intangibles? Yes, but does he have what it takes to be a QB in a pro style offense, I don't think so. And thats just my opinion from watching vids and games. I hope I am wrong.

Agreed, if any other team especially a division rivial had picked up Tebow in the first round people here would be laughing their asses off me included.

He may not develop into anything and I certainly understand your apprehension. I said in other places that I didn't want us to draft Tebow but he's here now so I'm hoping with good coaching combined with his intangibles that maybe he will become our franchise quarterback. One thing helps me is the fact Mike Mayock said when we drafted him that he thinks Tebow can make it with time. Mayock also mentioned that Tebow has already made a lot of improvements since the Senior Bowl. (NB: I know you're not saying that you want him to fail.)

[SOCALORADO.]

i remember watching that clip the day it happened and thinking....man that dude is a great leader.to go out after a loss and take responsibility and then tell the fans what he did about how he would lead the rest of the year.....pretty cool.

I dont know if the video is the joke vid about Tebow, but i saw that part of the video, and yeah, this guy isnt going to sit on his @$$ and make excuses.
This dude is here to win, PERIOD.
Alot of analysts and talkng heads are reserving their right to withhold their opinion of Tebow right now. And their reasoning is, that he just wont accept defeat or failure and that he will do whatever it takes to be successful.

[T.K.O.]

none of us knows how it will work out (but thats 1/2 the fun of football) but i will tell you ,like shanny said,"don't bet against him" tebow only has to grasp the system and work on footwork and release.that could be said about any rookie qb who has ever entered the nfl.
so this pick has alot of upside and looking at tebow's track record ....i'd say his chances are pretty good for proving the doubters wrong.
not saying anything is a given but he has as good a shot as any qb's drafted this year to become a very good nfl qb !:salute:

and i like the fire for the game (and yes that goes alot farther than people give credit for)

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[T.K.O.]

I dont know if the video is the joke vid about Tebow, but i saw that part of the video, and yeah, this guy isnt going to sit on his @$$ and make excuses.
This dude is here to win, PERIOD.
Alot of analysts and talkng heads are reserving their right to withhold their opinion of Tebow right now. And their reasoning is, that he just wont accept defeat or failure and that he will do whatever it takes to be successful.

talking heads don't affect my opinions because if he fails they will all point to the one time they said he might.....if he becomes great they will all say"yeah,i said if he get's with the right system and fixes a few things he could be great"
they NEVER admit when they were wrong ,but ALWAYS crow about being right (even when they were not!:laugh:)

[TXBRONC]

I dont know if the video is the joke vid about Tebow, but i saw that part of the video, and yeah, this guy isnt going to sit on his @$$ and make excuses.
This dude is here to win, PERIOD.
Alot of analysts and talkng heads are reserving their right to withhold their opinion of Tebow right now. And their reasoning is, that he just wont accept defeat or failure and that he will do whatever it takes to be successful.

I think everyone wants him to succeed because he is a Denver Bronco now. He has a lot stacked against right now but that doesn't mean he can't over come it. He would be the first quarterback to do so. Montana and Brady over came the same kind of stacked deck. One is in the Hall of Fame and the other will be their when his career is over. Yes Montana and Brady are exceptions to rule nevertheless they both prove that it is possible to overcome the odds.

[SOCALORADO.]

talking heads don't affect my opinions because if he fails they will all point to the one time they said he might.....if he becomes great they will all say"yeah,i said if he get's with the right system and fixes a few things he could be great"
they NEVER admit when they were wrong ,but ALWAYS crow about being right (even when they were not!:laugh:)

I dont want your op to be effected by them. What i am saying is that i think its funny they dont have the balls to call him a bust or not, but prior to the draft, they had all kinds of things to say.
Now, they just "reserve the right to wait".

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

I dont want your op to be effected by them. What i am saying is that i think its funny they dont have the balls to call him a bust or not, but prior to the draft, they had all kinds of things to say.
Now, they just "reserve the right to wait".

You should have heard colin cowherd yesterday, he spent about 90% of his entire show bashing the broncos for picking tebow and COMPLETELY told the story wrong. He was saying we used our very first pick to use tebow to replace marshall, and never ever once mentioned we drafted a receiver first, I can't even explain how piss poor wrong he was you just gotta hear it. :mad:

**** you Colin!!!! I'm not in any ****** herd!!!

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

He was saying it was the worst draft by any team in nfl history, he based all of this one ONE PICK and said we didn't fill ANY needs including wr and o line-WHICH WE DID DAMNIT

[SOCALORADO.]

He was saying it was the worst draft by any team in nfl history, he based all of this one ONE PICK and said we didn't fill ANY needs including wr and o line-WHICH WE DID DAMNIT

E!SPN is more of an E!ntertainment network than anything else.
Sucks there isnt a rival.
I wish FOXSPORTS would do battle and get a full time 24hour network going.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

E!SPN is more of an E!ntertainment network than anything else.
Sucks there isnt a rival.
I wish FOXSPORTS would do battle and get a full time 24hour network going.

I agree, for some reason I leave my ESPN radio on 24 hours and have grown accustomed to some of the programming, but the eastern seaboard programming network needs to LOSE their east coast bias!!! It's ridiculous almost every single one of them is from somewhere along the east coast.

[Lonestar]

Then by your argument, Josh McDaniels should shoulder a large part of the blame for those issues.

Absolutely him and I'm sure Rick's and Bobby's.


I'm pretty sure (willing to bet huge sums) that when Josh came in and interview them both He told them what he wanted to do switch to a PBS while integrating some of the ZBS into the scheme.


There is no doubt in my mind he did that. Because he publicly stated that in one of his first statements.

Is there any doubt in your mind that when he was talking to them and evaluating the players with them he asked them up front if they saw any problems with doing this?

OR do you believe that he just sprung this on them in TC? I'm sure there will be a few fans that will say it was an arrogant move and he forced it on the team without asking anyone.

I believe that he talked to everyone from Pat on down about his plans for the team. That everyone was on board for making the switch and said/thought it could be done with the existing player OR maybe they said that Hamilton maybe the weak link. Thus the reason for Hockstein being brought in.

Since casey had done it before they thought he could make the move and they had little doubt about the rest of the starters. Because of that they did not bring in another OC for insurance like they did for Hamilton.

Now it is evident to me and many others that Hamilton and Casey are gone because they could not make the move (not big, strong, fast enough) as was allowing to let Rick and Bobby go without a lot of fuss.

Now Bobby was denied to interview with WAS for a lateral move. IMO that was a great way to get him a "promotion". Which if nothing else was a way to get him more money and prestige.


Now by going out and getting one of the best cents in the draft, attest the meanest and nastiest one that should fix that hole in the OL.

Picking up the other OL guys should fix the OLG issue as well as light the fire under the other vets to let them KNOW that they had better put out this year or they will be gone or warming the bench. As far as Zane is concerned I think he will be our starting blindside OT once Tebow becomes the starter.

So yes Josh was responsible but not the only one to get some blame IMHO.

But I applaud him for taking the moves he did to assure that the Once great OL will return to that status again:salute:

[Lonestar]

Can't really argue this point. He is the coach.

I will say the only mitigating circumstance was he was basically told by the owner that Dennison & Turner were to remain on the staff.

Hence, his decision to try and meld the two schemes.

I suspect that Pat was proud of his OLINE and RBs and their coaches. I also suspect that he could have made a switch IF he could have proved that they (coaches and Players) were not up for the job.

As I stated int eh above post there is NO doubt in my mind that they said they could make the transition with existing players.

As for the both schemes he said early that while at NE they were trying to get some ZBS into their play book and that he would try to meld the two together here. SO that was not a shock to me when they tried but failed at it.

I think the biggest failure was Rick that for NO fault of his own failed. He was LB in college and for the broncos one of the smartest coaches in the league, He was made an assistant OL coach under Gibbs the father of ZBS at least the master IF not the father. Rick learned it from him and when Gibbs left the OL did not faultier as much as I had thought it would.

BUT never having played OL positions and ONLY knowing how to mentor player IN ZBS hoe could he really teach them how to PBS......... It was really not fair to him or the players .

clady had been playing ZBS in college, harris was at ND and I'm thinking was not a ZBS guy nor was Kuper. Hamilton well all of his pro career he was ZBS and well Pro bowl Casey he played PBS or something other than ZBS all of his career at KC.

So to make the change without bringing in a REAL OLine coach was short sighted IMO but that would have been hard to do considering how great the OL was in 08.

[Lonestar]

It happened last year with Orton. It was pretty funny watching the message boards. It started out with him being a worthless bum. Then, over the matter of a few days, people started 'talking' themselves into him being a 'good' pickup, then shortly after that, they started the "he's better than Cutler" and then "he's a top 10 QB".

I think it's just natural that it happens when a player comes to our team, but funny none the less.

Do you suppose that not knowing about him from adam, (it was not like there was a lot of Bears fans here) alll they knew of him was that he had "failed" in Chicago.

Many only knew of him from his "party" pictures, or that he had a neck beard.

But after looking past the "failure" we had a different perspective once we did some homework on him.

I know that many went back and watched his film hi-lite and low-lites. to find out the real reason for his time in Chicago.

Then when the allocates from his former teammates were heard that many changed their minds and decided to give him and chance before tarring and feathering him. Of course there were many that would never accept him because he was the choice of the devil spawn and or because he was replacing jay the ROCKET ARM.

HE will be a bum to many till he gets his biggie contract somewhere else. But to many that have opened there minds he will be a pretty good QB a hell of a brave guy to play a few weeks after suffering a compound dislocated finger as well as a high ankle sprain for much of the season.

[Lonestar]

Agreed, if any other team especially a division rivial had picked up Tebow in the first round people here would be laughing their asses off me included.

He may not develop into anything and I certainly understand your apprehension. I said in other places that I didn't want us to draft Tebow but he's here now so I'm hoping with good coaching combined with his intangibles that maybe he will become our franchise quarterback. One thing helps me is the fact Mike Mayock said when we drafted him that he thinks Tebow can make it with time. Mayock also mentioned that Tebow has already made a lot of improvements since the Senior Bowl. (NB: I know you're not saying that you want him to fail.)

talking about intangibles

I was watching the NFLN last night one of the segments was draft failure sand the next one was greatest draft steals or something like that .

Peter King of all people said that Tom Brady was a great pick ad that he would or did succeed "because of his intangibles".

That really rang a bell for me. As IIRC he was one of the most outspoken guys for calling Tebow a bust. Must have missed Tim's intangibles huh?


it was late last night and I hit record on it then so I could go back and see it it was taken out of context. will do that later today.

[Lonestar]

none of us knows how it will work out (but thats 1/2 the fun of football) but i will tell you ,like shanny said,"don't bet against him" tebow only has to grasp the system and work on footwork and release.that could be said about any rookie qb who has ever entered the nfl.
so this pick has alot of upside and looking at tebow's track record ....i'd say his chances are pretty good for proving the doubters wrong.
not saying anything is a given but he has as good a shot as any qb's drafted this year to become a very good nfl qb !:salute:

and i like the fire for the game (and yes that goes alot farther than people give credit for)

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IIRC that was said about cutler when he was brought in.

[Lonestar]

You should have heard colin cowherd yesterday, he spent about 90% of his entire show bashing the broncos for picking tebow and COMPLETELY told the story wrong. He was saying we used our very first pick to use tebow to replace marshall, and never ever once mentioned we drafted a receiver first, I can't even explain how piss poor wrong he was you just gotta hear it. :mad:

**** you Colin!!!! I'm not in any ****** herd!!! Normally I really like the guy but yesterday he was off the charts.


He usually is a guy that I respect for his commentary . I do not know what burr got under his saddle yesterday.

I will look forward to him eating crow down the line.:elefant:

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

Normally I really like the guy but yesterday he was off the charts.


He usually is a guy that I respect for his commentary . I do not know what burr got under his saddle yesterday.

I will look forward to him eating crow down the line.:elefant:

I know man, usually he's on the cutting edge. Yesterday was shit. :eek:

[jhildebrand]

Is there any doubt in your mind that when he was talking to them and evaluating the players with them he asked them up front if they saw any problems with doing this?

OR do you believe that he just sprung this on them in TC?

That doesn't absolve him in any fashion. Why keep coaches whose M.O. is ZBS only? Yet he retained them. We ran the ZBS well and through our 6-0 start. After 6-2 we saw much more of the PBS to a fault and watched the losses pile up.

Again, if you are using two systems you dont have ONE. It is still a bit of forcing a system on players and coaches not equipped for that system.

He got ALL the credit for 6-0 yet should only shoulder some of the blame for the collapse? :confused:



Now Bobby was denied to interview with WAS for a lateral move. IMO that was a great way to get him a "promotion".

This is a bit of spin. If the Broncos truly cared about Bobby Turner's well being and "wanted" him to be promoted, they could have done it themselves. Yet they didn't. They didn't promote him prior to Washington calling or after. It was a battle of egos and nothing more.



Which if nothing else was a way to get him more money and prestige.

Again, if they felt he was TRULY worth it, they would have been the organization to provide that not Washington.

[TXBRONC]

talking about intangibles

I was watching the NFLN last night one of the segments was draft failure sand the next one was greatest draft steals or something like that .

Peter King of all people said that Joe Montana was a great pick ad that he would or did succeed "because of his intangibles".

That really rang a bell for me. As IIRC he was one of the most outspoken guys for calling Tebow a bust. Must have missed Tim's intangibles huh?


it was late last night and I hit record on it then so I could go back and see it it was taken out of context. will do that later today.

The NFL's Top Ten Draft Steals. I've seen the show a few times. The biggest differences between Tebow coming out college and when Brady and Montana came out is he's left handed and he had a better college career than the other two. It just remains to seen if it will all come together for Tebow the way it did for Montana and Brady.

[T.K.O.]

IIRC that was said about cutler when he was brought in.

i'm sure it was.thats my point it COULD and SHOULD be said about most very good college qb's,but for some reason tebow is getting blasted for needing some work.i can promise there is no way he is as big a bust as some are already saying.leaf,russell etc....
we got tebow for some draft day manuevers and still got most of the holes filled...it was a slick move by the f.o. and has nothing but upside.
and we likely got the only 1st rounder that has no intention of holding out at all.
the dude did'nt want to leave denver after the draft.he wants to start today !
granted he wont be dumb and play for free,but i think mcD discussed with him before the draft about trading up and got a good feel for where the kid's head is at on contract issues.
i would not be surprised to see a very reasonable contract done,with alot of playing time clauses etc...

[Lonestar]

That doesn't absolve him in any fashion. Why keep coaches whose M.O. is ZBS only? Yet he retained them. We ran the ZBS well and through our 6-0 start. After 6-2 we saw much more of the PBS to a fault and watched the losses pile up.

Again, if you are using two systems you dont have ONE. It is still a bit of forcing a system on players and coaches not equipped for that system.

He got ALL the credit for 6-0 yet should only shoulder some of the blame for the collapse? :confused:



This is a bit of spin. If the Broncos truly cared about Bobby Turner's well being and "wanted" him to be promoted, they could have done it themselves. Yet they didn't. They didn't promote him prior to Washington calling or after. It was a battle of egos and nothing more.



Again, if they felt he was TRULY worth it, they would have been the organization to provide that not Washington.

Yes he was at fault as HC for not firing the OLG and OC and Rick because they did not get or could not get the job done.

But look at this in the manner .. New kid comes to town you get a team that has one of the best OLINEs in the NFL. He knows he has to change from the ZBS to PBS and get better at the Pocket protection.

Those are facts everyone knows that ZBS without Zimmerman, Stink, Elway and TD Etal has been a failure inside the 20's for almost 10 years. EVERYONE.

It was great between the 20's but an epic failure otherwise.

So when he interviewed with Pat and Joe Ellis he told them they were going to have to make some changes in the scheme, after all this was one of the reasons they wanted him bring in the NE model on O.


But I'll bet that when he interviewed Rick and Bobby and told them he was going to meld the two (PBS and ZBS) together they thought they could coach up the players to do so. If they did not tell him this they were gone and both knew it.

Why do you think IF you have two scheme you have none? IIRC you have been saying much the same thing about QB and other thing also.

Bobby was loved in town BUT I also believe that much of his success was from the ZBS and all of Ricks was.

AS for them not allowing Bobby to interview without a promotion, why would they let him go in lateral move that is almost unheard of for any of your coaches. No EGO involved at all.

Rick was allowed to interview for OC, was he not.

You have to get past the EGO mantra.

in summary Josh took steps to fix the areas he, Pat, Xman and I'm sure Joe thought were strengths last year but turned into weaknesses.

Every time I heard this kid talk it was we have to get bigger, faster, stronger and smarter. Everything he has done that I can see has been in these veins.

[Lonestar]

i'm sure it was.thats my point it COULD and SHOULD be said about most very good college qb's,but for some reason tebow is getting blasted for needing some work.

i can promise there is no way he is as big a bust as some are already saying.leaf,russell etc....
we got tebow for some draft day manuevers and still got most of the holes filled...

it was a slick move by the f.o. and has nothing but upside.
and we likely got the only 1st rounder that has no intention of holding out at all.
the dude did'nt want to leave denver after the draft.he wants to start today !
granted he wont be dumb and play for free,but i think mcD discussed with him before the draft about trading up and got a good feel for where the kid's head is at on contract issues.

i would not be surprised to see a very reasonable contract done,with alot of playing time clauses etc...

YES that can be said about every QB that comes out of college. I have yet to see a perfect guy that did not have to change something.

Even Elway had to learn not to tap the ball with his left hand just before he threw the ball. It was a "read" the defense figured out in his first few years. IIRC we learned of it from a player we brought in as a trade. As it was before FA.

[Northman]

Unfortuantely, Tebow needs more work than the average ordinary QB coming out of the draft.

[jhildebrand]

Yes he was at fault as HC for not firing the OLG and OC and Rick because they did not get or could not get the job done.

Ahhhhhhh nice deflection. You made my point for me! The point was it was CLEAR AS DAY that those guys weren't suited for the system yet McDaniels insisted on pounding the square peg through the round hole. That was my point all along. He had the league's most roster turnover. He CHOSE to KEEP those guys. He gets a LARGE share of the blame for failing to recognize that they don't fit his system. He gets more blame for sticking to it despite being 6-2 and it costing the team wins.

I thought he was pretty emphatic that: "All were trying to do is win a mother ******* game!" :lol: Doesn't that apply to him as well? :confused:



But look at this in the manner .. New kid comes to town you get a team that has one of the best OLINEs in the NFL. He knows he has to change from the ZBS to PBS and get better at the Pocket protection.

In 08 the O line's best trait was PASS blocking. Go back and look at Shanahan's comments about their inequities when it came to the run game. Pocket protection wasn't the issue.



Those are facts everyone knows that ZBS without Zimmerman, Stink, Elway and TD Etal has been a failure inside the 20's for almost 10 years. EVERYONE.

It was great between the 20's but an epic failure otherwise.

I will grant you most of that and include that the team's RZ issues were TERRIBLE and the bulk of that lies with Shanahan!



So when he interviewed with Pat and Joe Ellis he told them they were going to have to make some changes in the scheme, after all this was one of the reasons they wanted him bring in the NE model on O.

That's fine. Then make sure your opening day starting lineup is suited to your system especially after having the league most roster turnover.




But I'll bet that when he interviewed Rick and Bobby and told them he was going to meld the two (PBS and ZBS) together they thought they could coach up the players to do so. If they did not tell him this they were gone and both knew it.

I don't think either were worried about the prospect of being out of the league for one season.



Why do you think IF you have two scheme you have none? IIRC you have been saying much the same thing about QB and other thing also.

Yep, if you are using two QB's you don't have one. That is simple football 101. If you are using two QB's it is because you feel you have to and no other reason. Tell me, how many teams in the NFL utilize a two QB system with regularity and how well do they do?



AS for them not allowing Bobby to interview without a promotion, why would they let him go in lateral move that is almost unheard of for any of your coaches. No EGO involved at all.

Either they wanted him or they didn't. Apparently, they wanted to be a pain in the neck to Washington more than they wanted Turner. The simple fact is if they wanted to retain Turner, if they TRULY wanted it, they could have promoted him at season's end. Even then, they could have still offered him the same promotion. The bottom line is they could have kept him if they wanted to but they didn't and they played games along the way. McD deserves NO credit for getting Tunrer a promotion nor should he be mentioned as the reason. Turner got a promotion for being in this league 30 some years and doing what he has done. Let's not forget, he was a HC candidate in Miami before he decided to stay in Denver.



Rick was allowed to interview for OC, was he not.

My point exactly! They let Rick go without the games and drama and BS. Why do you supposed Rick got walking papers and they played games with Turner? :confused:



You have to get past the EGO mantra.

Why? :confused: This league is all about ego! Sometimes McD wins for it (Tebow IMHO) sometimes he loses for it (Nolan).



in summary Josh took steps to fix the areas he, Pat, Xman and I'm sure Joe thought were strengths last year but turned into weaknesses.

So were they strengths and he turned them into weaknesses? I recall McD being on with Scott and Al and blasting the 08 offense and brashly proclaiming they would improve across the board. They declined in every single major offensive statistical category!

The defense, by all accounts, was a three year project. They improved in EVERY single defensive category. Their only issue at season's end was run D. Yet, at the end of the season his first order of business was to "mutually resign" Mike Nolan. Aren't you at least concerned or curious that Nolan's offensive counterparts weren't held to the same "standard" considering their units performed much worse!



Every time I heard this kid talk it was we have to get bigger, faster, stronger and smarter. Everything he has done that I can see has been in these veins.

A lot of it has been, I give you that. I often like a lot of what McDaniels says. The problem is it is hard to tell where the fact ends and the fiction begins. Unfortunately, McDaniels has a bit of a rep, and deservedly so, as being a liar.

[GGMoogly]

You read it here first - Tebow...Pro Bowl...3 years. I am ALL in!:woot:

[TXBRONC]

Ahhhhhhh nice deflection. You made my point for me! The point was it was CLEAR AS DAY that those guys weren't suited for the system yet McDaniels insisted on pounding the square peg through the round hole. That was my point all along. He had the league's most roster turnover. He CHOSE to KEEP those guys. He gets a LARGE share of the blame for failing to recognize that they don't fit his system. He gets more blame for sticking to it despite being 6-2 and it costing the team wins.

I thought he was pretty emphatic that: "All were trying to do is win a mother ******* game!" :lol: Doesn't that apply to him as well? :confused:



In 08 the O line's best trait was PASS blocking. Go back and look at Shanahan's comments about their inequities when it came to the run game. Pocket protection wasn't the issue.



I will grant you most of that and include that the team's RZ issues were TERRIBLE and the bulk of that lies with Shanahan!



That's fine. Then make sure your opening day starting lineup is suited to your system especially after having the league most roster turnover.




I don't think either were worried about the prospect of being out of the league for one season.



Yep, if you are using two QB's you don't have one. That is simple football 101. If you are using two QB's it is because you feel you have to and no other reason. Tell me, how many teams in the NFL utilize a two QB system with regularity and how well do they do?



Either they wanted him or they didn't. Apparently, they wanted to be a pain in the neck to Washington more than they wanted Turner. The simple fact is if they wanted to retain Turner, if they TRULY wanted it, they could have promoted him at season's end. Even then, they could have still offered him the same promotion. The bottom line is they could have kept him if they wanted to but they didn't and they played games along the way. McD deserves NO credit for getting Tunrer a promotion nor should he be mentioned as the reason. Turner got a promotion for being in this league 30 some years and doing what he has done. Let's not forget, he was a HC candidate in Miami before he decided to stay in Denver.


My point exactly! They let Rick go without the games and drama and BS. Why do you supposed Rick got walking papers and they played games with Turner? :confused:



Why? :confused: This league is all about ego! Sometimes McD wins for it (Tebow IMHO) sometimes he loses for it (Nolan).



So were they strengths and he turned them into weaknesses? I recall McD being on with Scott and Al and blasting the 08 offense and brashly proclaiming they would improve across the board. They declined in every single major offensive statistical category!

The defense, by all accounts, was a three year project. They improved in EVERY single defensive category. Their only issue at season's end was run D. Yet, at the end of the season his first order of business was to "mutually resign" Mike Nolan. Aren't you at least concerned or curious that Nolan's offensive counterparts weren't held to the same "standard" considering their units performed much worse!



A lot of it has been, I give you that. I often like a lot of what McDaniels says. The problem is it is hard to tell where the fact ends and the fiction begins. Unfortunately, McDaniels has a bit of a rep, and deservedly so, as being a liar.

The section I highlighted really stuck out for me. There are certain things McDaniels should get for and there things at b.s. to give him credit Taylor's promotion is at the top list. I think you're absolutely right that McDaniels he didn't hold Taylor back to get him a promotion he did it to be a pain the in the ass. Yet at the same time Dennison was let go with no fuss.

[Tned-Mobile]

YES that can be said about every QB that comes out of college. I have yet to see a perfect guy that did not have to change something.

Even Elway had to learn not to tap the ball with his left hand just before he threw the ball. It was a "read" the defense figured out in his first few years. IIRC we learned of it from a player we brought in as a trade. As it was before FA.

Shit, Elway had to learn that the center snaps the ball, not the guard... ;)

[Ravage!!!]

Unfortuantely, Tebow needs more work than the average ordinary QB coming out of the draft.

certainly more than most 1st round QBs taken in the draft. If a team wasn't spending first round money, and using a first round pick... uh.. no.. a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th round pick on him..... then it would be ok to have a guy that was wasn't as polished and needed work.

Some actually want to say "yeah, but they say Brady needed the work"... great, but they used a 6th round pick on him, AND he was sitting behind Bledsoe. Wasn't like they were putting the franchise on the line for a project.

[silkamilkamonico]

Normally I really like the guy but yesterday he was off the charts.


He usually is a guy that I respect for his commentary . I do not know what burr got under his saddle yesterday.

I will look forward to him eating crow down the line.:elefant:

I wish I could have heard that. He was going off about Tebow before the draft, and saying how stupid it would if a team like Denver of Carolina drafted him before the third round.

[Ravage!!!]

Its funny...

People say how they like to listen to him, how he makes sense, how he uses logic, how he's normally on the edge....

But he says something negative about our draft choices, and he's off his rocker and full of 'it' :lol:

[GGMoogly]

Denver didn't give up three draft picks to get Tebow. They voluntarily gave themselves up just to be associated with him!:dancing:

[slim]

Its funny...

People say how they like to listen to him, how he makes sense, how he uses logic, how he's normally on the edge....

But he says something negative about our draft choices, and he's off his rocker and full of 'it' :lol:

People say that about cowherd?

Really?

[silkamilkamonico]

IMO Cowher is the most reasonable personality out there, and does a very good job at least giving some sort of rational argument on where he's coming from.

His only argument for a team like Denver drafting a project like Tebow is Denver having so many holes, and one could argue he's absolutely right.

[slim]

His show is hard to listen to, IMO.

He seems to be constantly contradicting himself...to the point that it is almost comical.

[Ravage!!!]

People say that about cowherd?

Really?

Yes.. really.

[Ravage!!!]

His show is hard to listen to, IMO.

He seems to be constantly contradicting himself...to the point that it is almost comical.

I don't think so at all. I think he gives reasonable explanations for his logic. He's pointing things out from an outsiders perspective that doesn't have emotion involved because he's not invested (emotionally) with the Broncos.

Fans just don't like to hear any negative things about their teams. Read how the board explodes any time someone says something bad about the Broncos... hwo they call that writer/commentator/author names and insult him. Say something positive, and the guy is a genius.

I like Cowherd a lot.... I don't always agree with him, and often don't like his perspective....but I like listening to his thoughts.

[slim]

I don't think so at all. I think he gives reasonable explanations for his logic. He's pointing things out from an outsiders perspective that doesn't have emotion involved because he's not invested (emotionally) with the Broncos.

Fans just don't like to hear any negative things about their teams. Read how the board explodes any time someone says something bad about the Broncos... hwo they call that writer/commentator/author names and insult him. Say something positive, and the guy is a genius.

I like Cowherd a lot.... I don't always agree with him, and often don't like his perspective....but I like listening to his thoughts.

Oh, I agree about the reaction these guys get when they say something negative about the broncos. Anyone that does is instantly an idiot or retarded, etc.

But we will have to disagree about Cowherd.

[Lonestar]

Ahhhhhhh nice deflection. You made my point for me! The point was it was CLEAR AS DAY that those guys weren't suited for the system yet McDaniels insisted on pounding the square peg through the round hole. That was my point all along. He had the league's most roster turnover. He CHOSE to KEEP those guys. He gets a LARGE share of the blame for failing to recognize that they don't fit his system. He gets more blame for sticking to it despite being 6-2 and it costing the team wins.

I thought he was pretty emphatic that: "All were trying to do is win a mother ******* game!" :lol: Doesn't that apply to him as well? :confused:



In 08 the O line's best trait was PASS blocking. Go back and look at Shanahan's comments about their inequities when it came to the run game. Pocket protection wasn't the issue.



I will grant you most of that and include that the team's RZ issues were TERRIBLE and the bulk of that lies with Shanahan!



That's fine. Then make sure your opening day starting lineup is suited to your system especially after having the league most roster turnover.




I don't think either were worried about the prospect of being out of the league for one season.



Yep, if you are using two QB's you don't have one. That is simple football 101. If you are using two QB's it is because you feel you have to and no other reason. Tell me, how many teams in the NFL utilize a two QB system with regularity and how well do they do?



Either they wanted him or they didn't. Apparently, they wanted to be a pain in the neck to Washington more than they wanted Turner. The simple fact is if they wanted to retain Turner, if they TRULY wanted it, they could have promoted him at season's end. Even then, they could have still offered him the same promotion. The bottom line is they could have kept him if they wanted to but they didn't and they played games along the way. McD deserves NO credit for getting Tunrer a promotion nor should he be mentioned as the reason. Turner got a promotion for being in this league 30 some years and doing what he has done. Let's not forget, he was a HC candidate in Miami before he decided to stay in Denver.



My point exactly! They let Rick go without the games and drama and BS. Why do you supposed Rick got walking papers and they played games with Turner? :confused:



Why? :confused: This league is all about ego! Sometimes McD wins for it (Tebow IMHO) sometimes he loses for it (Nolan).



So were they strengths and he turned them into weaknesses? I recall McD being on with Scott and Al and blasting the 08 offense and brashly proclaiming they would improve across the board. They declined in every single major offensive statistical category!

The defense, by all accounts, was a three year project. They improved in EVERY single defensive category. Their only issue at season's end was run D. Yet, at the end of the season his first order of business was to "mutually resign" Mike Nolan. Aren't you at least concerned or curious that Nolan's offensive counterparts weren't held to the same "standard" considering their units performed much worse!



A lot of it has been, I give you that. I often like a lot of what McDaniels says. The problem is it is hard to tell where the fact ends and the fiction begins. Unfortunately, McDaniels has a bit of a rep, and deservedly so, as being a liar.

One point at atom. I did not deflect merely made a truth answer it was his fault for NOT believing his OLINE coach that it could be done.

As far as changing the scheme are you telling me that we should have stayed with ZBS until he had a chance to change out the players he felt could not hack it?

Or do you TRUST your coaches to KNOW their players. The 08 OLINE best at pass protect . PErhaps from a s simple numbers aspect they were BUT if YOU paid close attention to it you would have seen Hamilton being pushed back into the pocket since 06 on a pretty consistent basis.

What I saw as the big difference is that they had NO respect for us being able to run the ball. That and KNOW that our feather weigh OLINE guys could not keep the interior DL from pushing eh pocky back int the QB. In fact also was happening starting with the AFCCG in the end of the 05 season.
If we wind up using 2 or more QBS this year does not mea that Orton could not handle it. Nor does it meant that Orton is not eh way out.

It is pretty clear in my mind that it is going to take one hell of a great year to keep Tebow out of the spot next year. I don not see them giving Orton a huge contract to be our back up guy. Unless tebow completely falls on his face he is going to be the starting QB in 11 if we have games next year.

As for turner not sure they wanted to keep him for sure, I suspect they had some concern that he doe not know RB except for the ZBS .

But whether he was being difficult or not that will never be known for sure . I see it as IF they want to talk to MY coach they better be talking about a promotion. It was for Rick right up front. So not sure what your issue was on this.

As for Nolan he did a great job in organizing eh 3-4 in getting people in to play it not so sure. Fields was and IS not a NT at least NOT a starter, maybe a rotational guy but not full timer. that was a HUGE FUBAR by Nolan same probably went for Davis beg brought in to play ILB. Not sure about the others brought in other than Dawkins But I also have to wonder if that was Nolan or someone else outing for that.

The simple fact is Josh wanted a certain type of D run and Nolan did not want it run that way, they clashed he was asked if he wanted to stay or interview , he was allowed to dose and frankly I think there was some collusion in him getting job seconds after leaving DEN.

I think we are going to see an improvement in run defense tah stunk it up late in the year, now was that because Nolan was not game planning correctly, did not have his players ready mentally , they were the wrong players for the job or did they give up on him.

The pass defense should be better with about the same amount of sack but not all of them from Doom and we will force more turn overs becahuse the rush and blitzes are more spread out.

Our Pass protection and run blocking should be better this year but even more so in 11 when they have had a chance to get to know each other and KNOW what the guy next to him does and evlop artist between themselves.

O played OG and when there was a new guy next to me on either side I was tentative when reacting to things especially on that side. A split second but at NFL speed that is HUGE.

YES Josh was responsible for all fo the short comings last year as well as all the good things that happened.

[Lonestar]

certainly more than most 1st round QBs taken in the draft. If a team wasn't spending first round money, and using a first round pick... uh.. no.. a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th round pick on him..... then it would be ok to have a guy that was wasn't as polished and needed work.

Some actually want to say "yeah, but they say Brady needed the work"... great, but they used a 6th round pick on him, AND he was sitting behind Bledsoe. Wasn't like they were putting the franchise on the line for a project.


It is not like we took him at 11 and the difference in money from 25 and say 33 is not all that much in the overall scheme of things (based on 4 years other than 5 and bonus spread over those time frames).

If he would have been taken @33 would he have been that much less skill or thing that needed to be improved. Everyone is hung up on him being first round pick.

I have always believed and continue to do so. IF someone is graded by the rest of the world as a mid second round palyer and YOU have him because of YOUR needs as the BPA what the hell does int matter if youtake the guy late in the first round or for that matter at 11.

If he is the guy that floats your boat and IF he does what you think he will what difference does it make.

I can remember many years with mike pulling picks out of his ass that should have been later picks and almost nary a word was said by our fans.

We took a bunch of players on day one that never played a down for us, same goes of many players that when we cut them they never where heard from again.

now all the hoopla because Josh gets a player that he wanted.

Not like he drafted a one handed WR or anything, or a DEAF DE.

[Lonestar]

IMO Cowher is the most reasonable personality out there, and does a very good job at least giving some sort of rational argument on where he's coming from.

His only argument for a team like Denver drafting a project like Tebow is Denver having so many holes, and one could argue he's absolutely right.


In the end what holes did we not fill? we got the #2 center in the draft, the second best OG as we graded him, picked up a spare OT and TWO if they work up big time WR's both of which have a better attitude than one BM.

Also seem to have the heir apparent to TS already with a year behind him seemingly ready to go some one that can actually throw a block not the LOS.

yes I heard the rant for the whole day and he failed to think about anything more than ONE player int eh draft.

Obviously Tim has slighted him at one time or another, but then he does work for ESPN, which has for the sot part a woody for DEN anyway.

Lost some respect for him because of the rant.

[Northman]

IMO Cowher is the most reasonable personality out there, and does a very good job at least giving some sort of rational argument on where he's coming from.

His only argument for a team like Denver drafting a project like Tebow is Denver having so many holes, and one could argue he's absolutely right.

Bam!

[Northman]

I don't think so at all. I think he gives reasonable explanations for his logic. He's pointing things out from an outsiders perspective that doesn't have emotion involved because he's not invested (emotionally) with the Broncos.

Fans just don't like to hear any negative things about their teams. Read how the board explodes any time someone says something bad about the Broncos... hwo they call that writer/commentator/author names and insult him. Say something positive, and the guy is a genius.

I like Cowherd a lot.... I don't always agree with him, and often don't like his perspective....but I like listening to his thoughts.


I agree. If it isnt pro Bronco some fans go off the deep end.

[broncobryce]

Besides, Colin knows what gets ratings. Let's face it, Tebow is a moneymaker.

[TimTebow15MVP]

Im tryna figure out where the so many holes are........I wish he woulda explained that shit instead of just saying random dumb shit he probably heard mel kiper say. Somebody tell me where all these holes are we have? rofl

[broncobryce]

It's "IN" to bash Denver and McD these days.

[Tned]

Do you suppose that not knowing about him from adam, (it was not like there was a lot of Bears fans here) alll they knew of him was that he had "failed" in Chicago.

Many only knew of him from his "party" pictures, or that he had a neck beard.

But after looking past the "failure" we had a different perspective once we did some homework on him.

I know that many went back and watched his film hi-lite and low-lites. to find out the real reason for his time in Chicago.

Then when the allocates from his former teammates were heard that many changed their minds and decided to give him and chance before tarring and feathering him. Of course there were many that would never accept him because he was the choice of the devil spawn and or because he was replacing jay the ROCKET ARM.

HE will be a bum to many till he gets his biggie contract somewhere else. But to many that have opened there minds he will be a pretty good QB a hell of a brave guy to play a few weeks after suffering a compound dislocated finger as well as a high ankle sprain for much of the season.

Nope, had nothing to do with what you describe. It's human nature and fandom. It's the same irrational rationalization that had us touting BVP has the next Elway. It's simply human nature to talk yourself and each other into believing 'our' players are the best, are better than those on other teams.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I agree. If it isnt pro Bronco some fans go off the deep end.

I don't even think it's necessarily pro vs con but who it is making the comment:

Anti-Tebow (from what I've seen)

Jamie Dukes
Colin Cowherd
Mel Kiper
Todd McShay
Pete Prisco

Pro-Tebow (from what I've seen)

John Gruden
Tony Dungy
Bill Bellichick
Mike Shanahan
Mike Mayock
Josh McDaniels (obviously)

Obviously every two bit journalist or broadcaster has an opinion on this one way or the other, but these are the bigger name guys that I know of.

Personally, I have a lot more respect for the second group of guys and their opinion as to an NFL player's potential than the first group. Just sayin'...

[getlynched47]

Unfortuantely, Tebow needs more work than the average ordinary QB coming out of the draft.

Explain

In 6 weeks, the dude completely changed his wind-up. His release was never a problem, it was just that baseball pitch-like windup...It's gone. Fixing that increases his accuracy, allows him to get the ball out of his hands quicker, and reduces turnovers because he isn't exposing the ball.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Tebow needs to work on is taking snaps from under center and reading pro-style defenses. EVERY quarterback coming out of college has to work on those things.

Tebow's "flaws" are exaggerated greatly.

As far as his throwing motion, here's a great quote by McDaniels:


"Some people don't think he has the natural traits of a great quarterback. Here's what I think: Do Jim Furyk and Tiger Woods swing the club the same way, hit irons the same way? No. But they both win tournaments. There're different ways to throw, different mechanics, and you can still get the job done.''

[TXBRONC]

Normally I really like the guy but yesterday he was off the charts.


He usually is a guy that I respect for his commentary . I do not know what burr got under his saddle yesterday.

I will look forward to him eating crow down the line.:elefant:

If you've been listening to Cowherd the past couple of years there is no reason you should shocked. He has said several times over the past couple years that he doesn't think Tebow's game will translate well NFL. It has nothing to do with him getting a burr under his saddle.

Even if he gave Tebow a glowing review it doesn't mean jack. Good review or bad review it doesn't matter what Cowherd or any other talking head says. Tebow's fate will be determined on the field not in the court of public opinion.

[silkamilkamonico]

In the end what holes did we not fill? we got the #2 center in the draft, the second best OG as we graded him, picked up a spare OT and TWO if they work up big time WR's both of which have a better attitude than one BM.

Also seem to have the heir apparent to TS already with a year behind him seemingly ready to go some one that can actually throw a block not the LOS.

yes I heard the rant for the whole day and he failed to think about anything more than ONE player int eh draft.

Obviously Tim has slighted him at one time or another, but then he does work for ESPN, which has for the sot part a woody for DEN anyway.

Lost some respect for him because of the rant.

The rant was before the draft, at least the one I was referring too. I highly doubt Cowher, you, or anyone knew that McDaniels would draft Tebow, and still do a good job of filling the holes.

Like I said, I don't know what he said after the draft and would have loved to hear it.

[Lonestar]

If you've been listening to Cowherd the past couple of years there is no reason you should shocked. He has said several times over the past couple years that he doesn't think Tebow's game will translate well NFL. It has nothing to do with him getting a burr under his saddle.

Even if he gave Tebow a glowing review it doesn't mean jack. Good review or bad review it doesn't matter what Cowherd or any other talking head says. Tebow's fate will be determined on the field not in the court of public opinion.
Frankly until about Christmas when my daughters Boy friend talked him up I had not paid ANY attention to him. Then basically forgot about him until eh monday before the draft I saw that he had spent monday in DEN as it was but now it sounds like Josh and a scout went east to see him and Thomas.

ONly then did my ears perk up about him coming to DEN.

As for Colin I generally like the guy and think he is one of the better talking heads. But it is obvious to me HE does not like Tim. For the most part I like him as QB just because he is not cutler in any manner.

[Northman]

I don't even think it's necessarily pro vs con but who it is making the comment:

Anti-Tebow (from what I've seen)

Jamie Dukes
Colin Cowherd
Mel Kiper
Todd McShay
Pete Prisco

Pro-Tebow (from what I've seen)

John Gruden
Tony Dungy
Bill Bellichick
Mike Shanahan
Mike Mayock
Josh McDaniels (obviously)




Lol. Well HP, the guys in the second group very RARELY ever say anything bad publicly about anyone (except for Mayock). Its like the John Elway syndrome. People ask those guys questions and they tow the line in hopes not to ruffle the feathers. Ive never once seen any of the other guys in the list bash or have any negative critique about any player for any reason since they been on air. The guys in the first group are paid to be objective as possible and i like a good portion of them on there except Dukes and Kiper. Fact is, the coaches wont say anything bad because if they go back to coaching they may end coaching players they bad mouthed and they wont risk that. The other guys in the list have no worry like that and thus can be far more objective.

[Northman]

Explain

In 6 weeks, the dude completely changed his wind-up. His release was never a problem, it was just that baseball pitch-like windup...It's gone. Fixing that increases his accuracy, allows him to get the ball out of his hands quicker, and reduces turnovers because he isn't exposing the ball.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Tebow needs to work on is taking snaps from under center and reading pro-style defenses. EVERY quarterback coming out of college has to work on those things.

Tebow's "flaws" are exaggerated greatly.

As far as his throwing motion, here's a great quote by McDaniels:

He changed his wind-up at his pro day. This wasnt under pressure from real game time experience. Trust me, there's a difference. Of course every Qb has something to work on but just like every year there are QB's who have more to work on and Tebow is one of them. But dont cry my friend, we should see Tebow at work in a couple of years so he has plenty of time to learn. :coffee:

[Northman]

But it is obvious to me HE does not like Tim.

Dude, come on. Cowherd doesnt have some vendetta against Tim. Especially if he's been stating this stuff long before the draft. There's just something about his game he doesnt like and (i agree) it probably wont translate well to the pros. Why it is everyone gets so upset over a different opinion is comical.

[Lonestar]

Explain

In 6 weeks, the dude completely changed his wind-up. His release was never a problem, it was just that baseball pitch-like windup...It's gone. Fixing that increases his accuracy, allows him to get the ball out of his hands quicker, and reduces turnovers because he isn't exposing the ball.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing Tebow needs to work on is taking snaps from under center and reading pro-style defenses. EVERY quarterback coming out of college has to work on those things.

Tebow's "flaws" are exaggerated greatly.

As far as his throwing motion, here's a great quote by McDaniels:

the thought process it take years to complete get away from an acquired habit and Tim will revert to the side/lower arm windup when the game its on the line, when he is tired or under pressure.

I have to say there is a lot of sense in that idea. But that does not mean that early in the season/games/when ahead he will do those things>

He is not like some he is coachable the only reason he still has this style was because Meyers did not want to lose games while he learned the "NFL" way to throw a ball.

If it is not broke why fix it. Tim and team won a hell of a lot of games being Tim. thee was some talk last spring that Tim wanted to be coached up to enhance his chances in the draft, but Meyer talked him out of it. His job was to win games in Gator land not worry if or where Tim was gong to be drafted.

The rant was before the draft, at least the one I was referring too. I highly doubt Cowher, you, or anyone knew that McDaniels would draft Tebow, and still do a good job of filling the holes.

Like I said, I don't know what he said after the draft and would have loved to hear it.


Colin was really on arrant yesterday most of his show, can say I have never heard him so exercised before about ONE topic. I'll bet when the tread was announced every war room stopped to hear what we did.

Lots said crap I wanted that kid but not this early and a few laughed. I'll bet that many of the owners were pissed also since he is going to be one hell of a merchandise guy for our team and not theirs.

[TXBRONC]

Frankly until about Christmas when my daughters Boy friend talked him up I had not paid ANY attention to him. Then basically forgot about him until eh monday before the draft I saw that he had spent monday in DEN as it was but now it sounds like Josh and a scout went east to see him and Thomas.

ONly then did my ears perk up about him coming to DEN.

As for Colin I generally like the guy and think he is one of the better talking heads. But it is obvious to me HE does not like Tim. For the most part I like him as QB just because he is not cutler in any manner.

If you think Cowherd doesn't like Tebow as player then you haven't been listening to guy. For last couple of years he has maintained that Tebow is/was great college quarterback but he didn't Tebow's skills would translate to the pro game. That not dislike it's called an honest opinion.

I really don't mean this next statement as dig but liking Tebow just because he's not Cutler is foolish imho because that simply will not make him a better quarterback.

[Lonestar]

Dude, come on. Cowherd doesnt have some vendetta against Tim. Especially if he's been stating this stuff long before the draft. There's just something about his game he doesnt like and (i agree) it probably wont translate well to the pros. Why it is everyone gets so upset over a different opinion is comical.

It was very untypical of him to go on a rant like this. I have never heard an almost complete show being about one subject. He usually spreads it around a lot not monday.

I listen for only two hours every day wish I could hear his third hour but the local station HAS to carry Jim Rome complete show or not at all.

[Northman]

It was very untypical of him to go on a rant like this. I have never heard an almost complete show being about one subject. He usually spreads it around a lot not monday.

I listen for only two hours every day wish I could hear his third hour but the local station HAS to carry Jim Rome complete show or not at all.

Ive heard him go on rants before its not out of the ordinary. Thing is, he was probably just as shocked as i was when we took Tebow. I thought it then and still think it now that we shouldnt have taken a QB early. Its just an opinion and the dude just happened to view it differently than a few others.

[Lonestar]

Ive heard him go on rants before its not out of the ordinary. Thing is, he was probably just as shocked as i was when we took Tebow. I thought it then and still think it now that we shouldnt have taken a QB early. Its just an opinion and the dude just happened to view it differently than a few others. Like I said It seemed a lot more steamed than I have heard from him before.

[TXBRONC]

Lol. Well HP, the guys in the second group very RARELY ever say anything bad publicly about anyone (except for Mayock). Its like the John Elway syndrome. People ask those guys questions and they tow the line in hopes not to ruffle the feathers. Ive never once seen any of the other guys in the list bash or have any negative critique about any player for any reason since they been on air. The guys in the first group are paid to be objective as possible and i like a good portion of them on there except Dukes and Kiper. Fact is, the coaches wont say anything bad because if they go back to coaching they may end coaching players they bad mouthed and they wont risk that. The other guys in the list have no worry like that and thus can be far more objective.

Cowherd doesn't dislike Tebow. Over the past two or three years praised him for his accomplishments but he's maintained that Tebow's isn't suited for NFL. So the hell what. Cowherd and everyone else will not determine Tebow's fate as pro quarterback. What TFT does or doesn't do on the field will determine his fate nothing else.

[TXBRONC]

It was very untypical of him to go on a rant like this. I have never heard an almost complete show being about one subject. He usually spreads it around a lot not monday.

I listen for only two hours every day wish I could hear his third hour but the local station HAS to carry Jim Rome complete show or not at all.

I think you must tune it out (seriously) because Cowherd goes on rant several times a week.

[getlynched47]

Why the hell y'all bitching back and forth about Cowherd???

He's gonna get Tebow-ned

[jhildebrand]

As for Nolan he did a great job in organizing eh 3-4 in getting people in to play it not so sure. Fields was and IS not a NT at least NOT a starter, maybe a rotational guy but not full timer. that was a HUGE FUBAR by Nolan same probably went for Davis being brought in to play ILB. Not sure about the others brought in other than Dawkins But I also have to wonder if that was Nolan or someone else outing for that.

So Nolan gets blamed for the players he had to work with? :confused: McDaniels had full control of the roster! Nolan was forced to work with the players McDaniels provided.



The simple fact is Josh wanted a certain type of D run and Nolan did not want it run that way

There is that EGO again. If Josh knows so much about D, why make the very first hire in his tenure in Nolan? :confused: Why didn't he just coach the D himself?

Also, aren't you the least bit concerned that McDaniels continued to tinker with the one side of the ball that had been performing???? Afterall, it was the O that managed a WHOPPING 8 minutes TOP in three games. Call me crazy but I think that should have been the priority!



, they clashed he was asked if he wanted to stay or interview , he was allowed to dose and frankly I think there was some collusion in him getting job seconds after leaving DEN.

Collusion? Are you serious? What makes you think that, I am definitely curious. Hot coordinators are snatched up all the time. Nolan as a coordinator is +34 in the takeaway department. The next nearest coordinator is not even CLOSE.



I think we are going to see an improvement in run defense tah stunk it up late in the year, now was that because Nolan was not game planning correctly,

How do you know it was Nolan's gameplan. Afterall, you yourself have mentioned how much influence Josh was having with the D and Nolan. Maybe the gameplans were more the result of McDaniels. We all know McDaniels wanted much less blitzing.



did not have his players ready mentally , they were the wrong players for the job or did they give up on him.

I don't know. They had the Pitt and Baltimore games still within reach late in the game despite the O managing 8 minutes time of possession in the second half of those games. At some point when the D is on the field as much as they were, they are going to break down.



The pass defense should be better with about the same amount of sack but not all of them from Doom and we will force more turn overs becahuse the rush and blitzes are more spread out.

Our Pass protection and run blocking should be better this year but even more so in 11 when they have had a chance to get to know each other and KNOW what the guy next to him does and evlop artist between themselves.

O played OG and when there was a new guy next to me on either side I was tentative when reacting to things especially on that side. A split second but at NFL speed that is HUGE.

YES Josh was responsible for all fo the short comings last year as well as all the good things that happened.

I hope you will remember this in the event it doesn't happen.

[Lonestar]

So Nolan gets blamed for the players he had to work with? :confused: McDaniels had full control of the roster! Nolan was forced to work with the players McDaniels provided.



There is that EGO again. If Josh knows so much about D, why make the very first hire in his tenure in Nolan? :confused: Why didn't he just coach the D himself?

Also, aren't you the least bit concerned that McDaniels continued to tinker with the one side of the ball that had been performing???? Afterall, it was the O that managed a WHOPPING 8 minutes TOP in three games. Call me crazy but I think that should have been the priority!



Collusion? Are you serious? What makes you think that, I am definitely curious. Hot coordinators are snatched up all the time. Nolan as a coordinator is +34 in the takeaway department. The next nearest coordinator is not even CLOSE.



How do you know it was Nolan's gameplan. Afterall, you yourself have mentioned how much influence Josh was having with the D and Nolan. Maybe the gameplans were more the result of McDaniels. We all know McDaniels wanted much less blitzing.



I don't know. They had the Pitt and Baltimore games still within reach late in the game despite the O managing 8 minutes time of possession in the second half of those games. At some point when the D is on the field as much as they were, they are going to break down.



I hope you will remember this in the event it doesn't happen.

Do you think that Josh told him to ask for players he wanted OR do you really think Josh just went out and got Nolan ex DL guy to force him in as a NT. Come on of course Nolan had a lot to say who he wanted.

As for EGO as the HC you have the duty and responsibility tot Owner/GM/ etc to have your players and Coaches do what you want them to. Other wise who is in charge? the players voted and they want to run the 3-4 and we will blitz when we want to.

Please . YOU said it your self in this comment
We all know McDaniels wanted much less blitzing. What else is ther if they did not agree on that Nolan does not work in DEN. Quite simple if you ask me.

DO you go to your boss and tell how you want to do your job and if he does not agree do you last long if you do it anyway?

yes they were beat but a lot of that comes back to the players you have trying ot play the positions they are not fit to play NT?

Yes I will remember who is responsible for the teams future and I like what I see in Josh a lot more than I had any confidence in MIke the last few years. I just hope everyone else will also remember who is reospible when we start winning. and not give the credit to the scouts, or Gm or TEbow carrying the team all the way buy himslef.:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

Night all time for Taps.

[silkamilkamonico]

There is that EGO again. If Josh knows so much about D, why make the very first hire in his tenure in Nolan? :confused: Why didn't he just coach the D himself?


Name one coach in the NFL that coaches both the offense, and the defense..

[jhildebrand]

Name one coach in the NFL that coaches both the offense, and the defense..

Apparently, Josh McDaniels comes the closest!

[jhildebrand]

DO you go to your boss and tell how you want to do your job and if he does not agree do you last long if you do it anyway?



The problem is I am my own boss. :shocked:

It is a rather odd perdicament that often leads to power struggles and attempted coups. :laugh:

I liked the post but am too tired to even think. I will get back to it tomorrow when I can think straight.

[silkamilkamonico]

Apparently, Josh McDaniels comes the closest!

McDaniels coaches the offense. He does what every bright minded NFL coach does in the NFL. He coaches one side of the ball, and he helps explain to the defensive coach what the opponent will do on offense the upcoming week.

[Lonestar]

McDaniels coaches the offense. He does what every bright minded NFL coach does in the NFL. He coaches one side of the ball, and he helps explain to the defensive coach what the opponent will do on offense the upcoming week.
I think in this case he also expected one thing and got another.

As his boss Josh wanted him to comply with his wishes.

Pretty simple concept .


That said.

As an OC you have to know how to get around Defenses, One would think that knowing that it would not be to hard to reverse engineer a Defense to BEAT an Offense.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Lol. Well HP, the guys in the second group very RARELY ever say anything bad publicly about anyone (except for Mayock). Its like the John Elway syndrome. People ask those guys questions and they tow the line in hopes not to ruffle the feathers. Ive never once seen any of the other guys in the list bash or have any negative critique about any player for any reason since they been on air. The guys in the first group are paid to be objective as possible and i like a good portion of them on there except Dukes and Kiper. Fact is, the coaches wont say anything bad because if they go back to coaching they may end coaching players they bad mouthed and they wont risk that. The other guys in the list have no worry like that and thus can be far more objective.

True enough, but guys like Gruden and Dungy did more than make a polite remark when asked. They absolutely GUSHED over this guy and both said he'd have been their choice over the rest of the QB class this year. Everyone knows Bellichick felt the same way and was scouting him as hard as we were. That's what I'm talking about.

Objective or not, the same guys in the 1st group were the ones that gave Vince Young a glowing endorsement in spite of his "unorthodox" throwing motion because of his intangibles and leadership. Basically because of what he did in one game beating USC for the National Championship. These same "experts" that endorsed Young are going to knock Tebow for the same reasons - throwing motion, took most snaps from shotgun, running QB, doesn't read defenses... and Young was taken #3 OVERALL!

How has Young done? ROY his 1st season had a sophomore slump and was benched then was called on to save their season last year and did just that. Tebow surely won't be any worse!

[Tned-Mobile]

As an OC you have to know how to get around Defenses, One would think that knowing that it would not be to hard to reverse engineer a Defense to BEAT an Offense.

Then the reverse should be true as well. Why aren't guys like Lovie Smith great on offense? If they know how to shut down an offense, he should know what things to do on offense to prevent the defense from shutting down an offense.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

Knowing how to stop something and knowing how not to be stopped are not synonymous.

[arapaho2]

I think in this case he also expected one thing and got another.

As his boss Josh wanted him to comply with his wishes.

Pretty simple concept .


That said.

As an OC you have to know how to get around Defenses, One would think that knowing that it would not be to hard to reverse engineer a Defense to BEAT an Offense.

nolan is heads and tails above mcd in the defensive department..nolan is one of the greatest 3-4 defensive coaches in the game..joshy helped coach dbs one season...who knows better?


the point of this team is to win....and if your long time top of the heap DC thinks it should be done this way...by god if your a rookie HC with one season as a assistant def coach...you might wanna do as he says

its called reality..the reality is nolan knows a damm lot more about winning games from the defensive side than does mcd

you may enjoy the and up hold his "do it my way or its the highway" aptitude...but sometimes a young coach needs to recognize his way might not be the best way...it its for the good of the team you tuck in your horns...josh wont