The best and worst of the 2010 draft [Archive]

SmilinAssasSin27

04-24-2010, 06:21 PM

Completely disagree. McDaniels gave up the meat in a hearty draft for Tebow.

I could go and list the plethora of prospects we could have drafted with those 3 picks, but JR might have a heart attack and die..

I get what yer sayin, BUT, Lemme ask ya this...

If you and the wife each take $100 to Vegas and you turn that $100 into $500...do you think you should get to spend that how you see fit? Does your wife?

I see this as a situation where we had so many draft picks at 7:30 on Thursday night. McD did some dealing and ended up w/ a couple of extra picks. He traded back into round 1 using ONLY THOSE PICKS. I feel as though, since he did the work (along w/ Xanders), he should be able to use his "winnings" on whatever he wants to. He's the coach. The moves he made did not adversely effect the team and he still got to buy his new toy. I personally see nothing wrong w/ that. Hell, he actually got us an extra 3rd for his troubles.

Had McD ignored the WR or OL spots, I'd be with ya 100%, but he didn't. Ask yourself this as well...if we completely delete Tebow's name from our overall draft coup, are ya happy w/ the draft?

silkamilkamonico

04-24-2010, 06:21 PM

Speaking of meat, we drafted 3 big (300 lbs +) O-linemen in this draft. I think JR's heart will be just fine... Just a guess.

Walton and Beetles were great picks!

silkamilkamonico

04-24-2010, 06:24 PM

I get what yer sayin, BUT, Lemme ask ya this...

If you and the wife each take $100 to Vegas and you turn that $100 into $500...do you think you should get to spend that how you see fit? Does your wife?

I see this as a situation where we had so many draft picks at 7:30 on Thursday night. McD did some dealing and ended up w/ a couple of extra picks. He traded back into round 1 using ONLY THOSE PICKS. I feel as though, since he did the work (along w/ Xanders), he should be able to use his "winnings" on whatever he wants to. He's the coach. The moves he made did not adversely effect the team and he still got to buy his new toy. I personally see nothing wrong w/ that. Hell, he actually got us an extra 3rd for his troubles.

I think I'd feel better about that if my wife wasn't throwing $100 away like trash at our last visit to Vegas.

And with the benefit of hindsight and Tebow, it's like she won the lottery and spent it all on shoes.

I'll never get over that mystery of pick #113.

Lonestar

04-24-2010, 06:24 PM

Yep, I sure do give a crap about what Doug Farrar (who the hell is this anyway?) thinks about the Broncos.

Damned guy I may not sleep tonight now.....:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: :laugh::laugh::laugh:

atwater27

04-24-2010, 06:25 PM

LMAO! From the article...Biggest Reaches

Florida QB Tim Tebow: See above. When you have this many needs, and you blow multiple picks to get a quarterback that is at least one full season away from being a legit NFL starter ... well, let's just say that I wouldn't mind playing poker with Josh McDaniels sometime.

EMB6903

04-24-2010, 06:26 PM

So hes looking at 1 pick to judge Denver's entire draft? even the Denver fans who hated the Tebow pick still came out thinking Broncos had a good overall draft.

silkamilkamonico

04-24-2010, 06:26 PM

silkamilkamonico

04-24-2010, 06:27 PM

So hes looking at 1 pick to judge Denver's entire draft? even the Denver fans who hated the Tebow pick still came out thinking Broncos had a good overall draft.

I actually can't say anything bad about the draft other than that pick. All solid talent's, good prospect's, and great character guys with the exception of possibly Cox, who was a low value pick anyways.

silkamilkamonico

04-24-2010, 06:30 PM

A lot of my Raider and Charger fans hate the Broncos 7th round pick in Thompson.

"You got that guy in the 7th round??"

He could be a great special teams player. He'[s a straight up football player that plays with a passion and drive. Plays tough, physical, hard nosed football.

Lonestar

04-24-2010, 06:35 PM

Completely disagree. McDaniels gave up the meat in a hearty draft for Tebow.

I could go and list the plethora of prospects we could have drafted with those 3 picks, but JR might have a heart attack and die..

Oh Please do make my day.

We filled almost all the holes with solid to great players and got Tebow as a bonus.

Not seeing how this is really bad.

We potentially fixed the OLINE for the next decade,

Replaced a gifted WR with someone that looks like his clone with a better attitude and more speed..

Got some TC fodder at worst in CB's that will not doubt push some players for ST play.

Picked up a solid ILB to push the current ones as a FA.

just what more could you wish for.

A better center that Walton he was the meanest and nastiest OLINE guy in the draft.

Another NT well yes I could have liked another one there, same goes for DE.

Y'all wanted a different QB we got one. Now lets see how many Orton haters will fall in love with him or Quinn.

Overall I'm happy with the draft and suspect we will see another 6-10 UDFA to push for roster space.

and last but not least we have lots of chit chat by the talking heads to bash DEN and Josh about.

Time will tell how we did.

silkamilkamonico

04-24-2010, 06:44 PM

Oh Please do make my day.

We filled almost all the holes with solid to great players and got Tebow as a bonus.

Not seeing how this is really bad.

We potentially fixed the OLINE for the next decade,

Replaced a gifted WR with someone that looks like his clone with a better attitude and more speed..

Got some TC fodder at worst in CB's that will not doubt push some players for ST play.

Picked up a solid ILB to push the current ones as a FA.

just what more could you wish for.

A better center that Walton he was the meanest and nastiest OLINE guy in the draft.

Another NT well yes I could have liked another one there, same goes for DE.

Y'all wanted a different QB we got one. Now lets see how many Orton haters will fall in love with him or Quinn.

Overall I'm happy with the draft and suspect we will see another 6-10 UDFA to push for roster space.

and last but not least we have lots of chit chat by the talking heads to bash DEN and Josh about.

Time will tell how we did.

I'll stop at Tim Tebow.

Considering Jimmy Clausen went #48 and was the second best QB in the draft, I'd bet my left nut that Tebow would have been there at #43. AND we would have had another 3rd round pick and 4th round pick.

Ohh the agony...:sad:

SmilinAssasSin27

04-24-2010, 06:49 PM

No way Buffalo doesn't go after Tebow. That city NEEDS something to get excited about. Spiller was a start, but they still needed that QB to make people notice.

honz

04-24-2010, 07:25 PM

I'll stop at Tim Tebow.

Considering Jimmy Clausen went #48 and was the second best QB in the draft, I'd bet my left nut that Tebow would have been there at #43. AND we would have had another 3rd round pick and 4th round pick.

Ohh the agony...:sad:

I'd bet both of my nuts that McD and Xanders had a better idea of where Tebow was gonna go than we did...and I'm working with a pair of nut implants!

silkamilkamonico

04-24-2010, 08:55 PM

I'd bet both of my nuts that McD and Xanders had a better idea of where Tebow was gonna go than we did...and I'm working with a pair of nut implants!

You lost your nut implants in the 4th round!

arapaho2

04-24-2010, 08:56 PM

So hes looking at 1 pick to judge Denver's entire draft? even the Denver fans who hated the Tebow pick still came out thinking Broncos had a good overall draft.

how good would the draft have been if he waited two picks to get thomas at 24 where he undoubtedly will be available...keeping the pick

then how good would the draft be if he waited for 43 for tebow...and used the extra 3rd and forth rrnd picks in areas of need?

for the life of me i cannot understand how the coaches crew..cannot understand the fact we more then likely didnt have to give up four picks..a 2nd..3rd..and 2.. 4ths to get thomas and marshall

thats the issue!! if thomas is a great wr and tebow at least is a adequet player...i got no issues takeing them

i got issues wasting picks to get them

its like a immature teenager buying his first car...you tell him and tell him the car he wants may be ok...but it isnt no where near worth what the guy wants for it.....he sneaks out and buys it anyway ...so he got a car that may work just as well as a new one....but he didnt have to pay new car price for it

gatorpower

04-24-2010, 09:00 PM

After reading a lot of post-draft write-ups and commentary from different teams, I do not see how many people can fault Denver for trading up to get Tebow.

Despite what the owner of the Bills says (sour grapes), they were apparently trying very hard to draft up and get Tebow before New England's pick. They really needed a QB and only ended up taking one in the 7th. That tells me they were set on only one guy, Tebow.

Why before New England? Because the intel out of Patriots camp is that they were trading down in the 1st to grab Tebow sometime before pick 30, when Minnesota was rumored to want him. They did not feel threatened by anyone to take him before the Vikings, especially after both Buffalo and Jacksonville took their picks and did not trade down. Minnesota was rumored the entire week leading up to the draft to take Tebow at pick 30.

Nothing I have heard after the draft or reading boards has convinced me otherwise.

So..... you had, at least, 4 teams who were targeting Tebow at the end of the 1st and the top of the 2nd. There is no doubt in my mind, he WAS going to go somewhere between 25-35 and these teams were making decisions based on that.

Even Mel Kiper had Tebow in his 1st round mock on Wednesday for god's sake.

Now everyone is saying it's a bad pick? Really?

I have a feeling that even if Tebow went in the 2nd or 3rd round, people would still be questioning him JUST as hard as they are now. You hear it more now, I think, because Tebow is a very popular character.

The NFL was begging Tebow to go to New York for the draft, even letting him invite his entire friends and family to join him in the green room. They told him there was a very good chance he would get picked on Thursday. I mean, as it is, they sent a whole crew down to his house. Seriously, how many other 'reaches' in the draft did they send their reporters to cover at their own homes?

They had Dez Byrant & the LB from Alabama, both guys predicted to go in the top-15 picks. The ONLY "reach" was Tebow. In fact, he got about a 5-10 minute segment BEFORE the draft by the NFL network too. They did not do that with the other guys.

Like I said, these people would be saying the same things no matter where he got picked. They only feel MORE justified in writing stories, that they know will be wildly popular, because he went in the first. I'm sure they're extremely grateful that Tebow did go then. They know whatever they write will be read 5x as much now.

So yeah, a lot of people were predicting late first, early 2nd, with at least 4 teams trying to get him in the first, but it's a HORRIBLE pick lol

Krugan

04-24-2010, 09:07 PM

Its not that he is a Bronco, but how we went about to get him that bothers me, and it seems others as well.

Why is it "hate" or some other term tossed around when people dont agree with things?

I dont hate the kid, I dont hate the coach, I dont hate the draft we had, I just feel like we could have done this and actually took advantage of the way the draft started, stocking up on the area of the draft where teams are built. that would be 2,3,4th rounds.

No hate here, quite the opposite. Im looking forward to the season and what it will bring. Only hate I have is the amount of months until this stuff gets going, so the specualtion can go the hell away.

WARHORSE

04-24-2010, 09:12 PM

Guys just stupid.

Honestly, Tebow has 'megastar' written all over him IF he pans out.

He is POLARIZING.

He is the antithesis to everything "ME" about our society.

He uses ME to say WE with his hard work towards making the team the best it can be. He makes the example of HIMSELF.

He speaks of Jesus, and helping people.

His qb rating is off the charts. His intangibles are off the charts. His character is off the charts. And in all that, he still seems to exude what he is........a kid.

Nobody else cares about these things in the forefront of what they say on a day to day basis, but why then is everyone on the NFL planet so drawn to talk about him?

Its because theres two things that are possibles with TBONE....hes either a megastar or a megabust.

By megastar, we're talkin rockstar status.

Not Tom Brady status.

We started off with a few picks, we gambled down to get more. We got more, and we used them, and still had our picks.

Say we use our picks from day one.

We get Thomas at 11, then say Sergio KIndles who was taken at our first second, then beadles, then Walton, Decker, etc, etc.

Josh said Ayers is gonna start on the outside and Haggans on the inside. SO kindles is a rotational guy.

Is that a better draft?

Who cares about Farrar, Farmar or whatever his name thinks.

Tebow is a HORSE to bring down, and at a minimum, we are going to taylor goaline packages that fit his abilities to the max.

Redzone powerhouse is what Im lookin for.

Draft grade: A+

arapaho2

04-24-2010, 09:21 PM

So yeah, a lot of people were predicting late first, early 2nd, with at least 4 teams trying to get him in the first, but it's a HORRIBLE pick lol

heres the krux..if tebow was such an coveted item...fully worth a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th...why not just take him at 24# and be done with it...then we have two 2nd round picks to get a wr..like tate..or thomas..or benn and still get jd and more others

amazing how people cannot see the idiocracy of the way we got him

gatorpower

04-24-2010, 09:47 PM

amazing how people cannot see the idiocracy of the way we got him

The logic for trading 2nd-round picks, picks you earned by trading down in the first place, to get two 1st-round picks is solid. I think it's okay to argue the actual picks, but the trades/acquisition is, at worst, a wash and, at best, very good dealing.

Having said that, I think both players are worth 1st-round picks and neither Thomas, nor Tebow, would have gotten into the 2nd round at all.

Ziggy

04-24-2010, 10:01 PM

underrated29

04-24-2010, 10:04 PM

heres the krux..if tebow was such an coveted item...fully worth a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th...why not just take him at 24# and be done with it...then we have two 2nd round picks to get a wr..like tate..or thomas..or benn and still get jd and more others

amazing how people cannot see the idiocracy of the way we got him

Because NE wanted Thomas!! Then when we took him they went CB. But had DT been there they would have nabbed him.

honz

04-24-2010, 10:07 PM

It doesn't matter if they would have gotten there not. Fact is, they didn't because Josh does what it takes to get his guys. He told Ed Werder before the draft that he wanted Thomas and Tebow. He got Thomas and Tebow. McD has a plan, and he'e executing it. No coach in the league has bigger cajones.

He told Werder specifically that we wanted Thomas and Tebow? Where did you hear this? If true, then he worked the draft to perfection. He got his guys and didn't really give up any picks to do so. Trading down and trading up sorta evened out our draft picks to what we started with in the first place.

underrated29

04-24-2010, 10:10 PM

All these talking heads ( I wasnt able to read the link)--

They all hate the pick because they think we are some bottom feeding team with 4-5 wins. They think we have soooooo many wholes all over our team. They seem to forget we were 8-8 and would be 9-7 if Kyle didnt leave the WAS game, and be 10-6 if we didnt let Jarmarcus russell run for 50 yards, and 11-5 if we didnt give the philly game away at the last minute...

Regardless we were 8-8 and even though we choked down the stretch still finished the same as tennessee. They hate the pick becuase they think the 2nd and 3rd rdr would have been such drastic improvements to our team that would have contrinuted right away and been all stars.....

They also fail to realize that Tebow WILL PLAY this year. He will make the roster guaranteed!! and will see time in the wild horse and 3rd downs and maybe goal as well...Probably not a lot unless he tears it up, but he will be on the field and contributing this year.

I will bet Honz nuts on it.

honz

04-24-2010, 10:12 PM

Whoa now, implants are expensive man.

Ziggy

04-24-2010, 10:41 PM

He told Werder specifically that we wanted Thomas and Tebow? Where did you hear this? If true, then he worked the draft to perfection. He got his guys and didn't really give up any picks to do so. Trading down and trading up sorta evened out our draft picks to what we started with in the first place.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135965

SM19

04-24-2010, 10:53 PM

jlarsiii

04-24-2010, 11:07 PM

Because NE wanted Thomas!! Then when we took him they went CB. But had DT been there they would have nabbed him.

That is such baloney, and I am tired of people saying this. If NE really wanted Thomas there is no way in hell they trade their pick to us so that we can draft him!

He was there at their pick and they traded it to us, so please stop spreading this crap around.

I am already starting to not care about the fact we drafted Thomas and Tebow. How come people can't accept the fact that we gave up draft picks we really didn't need to just to draft players that would have still been on the board when our turn to pick did role around?:confused:

Reach or not we could have had an even better draft if we had kept some of those picks we traded away unnecessarily. ..

underrated29

04-24-2010, 11:12 PM

That is such baloney, and I am tired of people saying this. If NE really wanted Thomas there is no way in hell they trade their pick to us so that we can draft him!

He was there at their pick and they traded it to us, so please stop spreading this crap around.

I am already starting to not care about the fact we drafted Thomas and Tebow. How come people can't accept the fact that we gave up draft picks we really didn't need to just to draft players that would have still been on the board when our turn to pick did role around?:confused:

Reach or not we could have had an even better draft if we had kept some of those picks we traded away unnecessarily. ..

are you serious?

The only Baloney is saying that YOU know for a fact that tebow and thomas would have been available later...That is ridiculous. Not ludicrous. No its PLAD. YOU have gone PLAD...Thats how out of whack you are.... If you are sooo certian that this is the case then tell me Ms. Cleo when is the next time we will win the superbowl. Because you obviously know what we and other teams are going to do.

What we do know is what has come out of Buffalo, NE and Balt and Vikes....Teams wanted Tebow. Teams wanted Thomas.... Dont accept it, but that makes more sense then the "he would have been there later because I know this"

sorry- this one doesnt take.

jlarsiii

04-24-2010, 11:30 PM

are you serious?

The only Baloney is saying that YOU know for a fact that tebow and thomas would have been available later...That is ridiculous. Not ludicrous. No its PLAD. YOU have gone PLAD...Thats how out of whack you are.... If you are sooo certian that this is the case then tell me Ms. Cleo when is the next time we will win the superbowl. Because you obviously know what we and other teams are going to do.

What we do know is what has come out of Buffalo, NE and Balt and Vikes....Teams wanted Tebow. Teams wanted Thomas.... Dont accept it, but that makes more sense then the "he would have been there later because I know this"

sorry- this one doesnt take.

Where should I start? First, where did I say that I know for a fact that they would have been available later? That is your word not mine. Second, I know what plaid is, but what is plad? Third, first point I made with my post was to refute that NE wanted Thomas because they didn't draft him. Instead they made a trade with us. Thanks for completely ignoring that point.

Next, how come I am referred to as Ms. Cleo when you are doing the exact same damn thing? I have a crystal ball for stating that they would have been available at the draft picks we had if we had stayed at them, but you don't for saying that they would have been gone before we would have drafted?:confused: That is bs and you know it. You don't know with any more certainty that they would have been gone before we could have drafted them. I love how I am full of it for saying that he would have still been available, but you are not full of it for saying he would have "for sure" been gone. . .

Of the teams you named not one even chose a QB before the 6th round, and one of them didn't draft a QB at all. How is it they would have drafted Tebow, but didn't feel the need to try and draft any of the other QBs until almost the end of the draft, and none of those drafted were top rated QB prospects?

You are trying to defend the pick with as much conjecture as I am using to say it was a waste of draft picks to move up, but somehow I can debate it and you try to attack me instead of the post. . .

Tempus Fugit

04-24-2010, 11:33 PM

Why am I not surprised that most of the people who were complaining before the draft are still complaining afterwards?

atwater27

04-24-2010, 11:38 PM

Why am I not surprised that most of the people who were complaining before the draft are still complaining afterwards?

About as surprised as I to find the kool aid drinkers who have spiked the punch with vodka and taken MCdaniels damage control into the stratosphere.

NameUsedBefore

04-24-2010, 11:39 PM

If Tebow doesn't fall to your picks it isn't a big loss anyway. I mean holy shit, the dude is completely unrefined. The world isn't gonna fall apart if you don't get Tim Tebow and you'll probably be better off using those picks on actual needs instead! (Whoa, that idea must blow some minds as we ride off into the season with a gajillion QBs and a weak roster!)

atwater27

04-24-2010, 11:41 PM

SM19

04-24-2010, 11:47 PM

If Tebow doesn't fall to your picks it isn't a big loss anyway.

This is really the most important point. Yes, it's possible that if we don't trade up to 25 we miss out on Tebow. So what? Let another team reach for him. We don't need a quarterback that desperately, there are quarterbacks more likely to succeed as pros later on if we really want one (hell, the Panthers alone got two of them), and in the meantime there are better players at every position, need or not.

honz

04-24-2010, 11:48 PM

This is really the most important point. Yes, it's possible that if we don't trade up to 25 we miss out on Tebow. So what? Let another team reach for him. We don't need a quarterback that desperately, there are quarterbacks more likely to succeed as pros later on if we really want one (hell, the Panthers alone got two of them), and in the meantime there are better players at every position, need or not.
I'd say our front office clearly disagreed with your opinion, man.

jlarsiii

04-24-2010, 11:49 PM

Why am I not surprised that most of the people who were complaining before the draft are still complaining afterwards?

I don't know if you are referring to me or not, but I like to think that I can voice my opinion on this message board to see what people think about it. I definitely didn't complain before the draft.

I just think it sucks that we could have had even more picks in this draft to add talent to the team and we traded them away. After all, we were not one D Thomas or T Tebow away from making it to the SB this coming season as it stands. We need to add more talent across the board to this team still IMO. . .

underrated29

04-24-2010, 11:50 PM

Where should I start? First, where did I say that I know for a fact that they would have been available later? That is your word not mine. Second, I know what plaid is, but what is plad? Third, first point I made with my post was to refute that NE wanted Thomas because they didn't draft him. Instead they made a trade with us. Thanks for completely ignoring that point.

Next, how come I am referred to as Ms. Cleo when you are doing the exact same damn thing? I have a crystal ball for stating that they would have been available at the draft picks we had if we had stayed at them, but you don't for saying that they would have been gone before we would have drafted?:confused: That is bs and you know it. You don't know with any more certainty that they would have been gone before we could have drafted them. I love how I am full of it for saying that he would have still been available, but you are not full of it for saying he would have "for sure" been gone. . .

Of the teams you named not one even chose a QB before the 6th round, and one of them didn't draft a QB at all. How is it they would have drafted Tebow, but didn't feel the need to try and draft any of the other QBs until almost the end of the draft, and none of those drafted were top rated QB prospects?

You are trying to defend the pick with as much conjecture as I am using to say it was a waste of draft picks to move up, but somehow I can debate it and you try to attack me instead of the post. . .

well you called it out that it was pure baloney that he would not have been there. That means that you must have Known for sure that the two guys would have been there later.

Ne probably thought we were going after Bryant or tebow, who knows for sure. I thought we were going bryant.

I am not full of it because those were the reports that came out. I didnt make them up. The reports were that NE, Buf, MIn, and someone else IIRC were intersted in Thomas and Tebow....Now if I made those up then I would be full of it. But I didnt. Of course the Bills guy already denied it- I am not sure if I believe him or not, but where there is smoke there is fire and why would he come out and say no...what does he gain from it. Why not let it disappear just like all the other garbage that goes on every year? It makes way to much sense that they would want him.

As for the other teams not drafting a Qb until the 6th etc....Well, look at us for your answer. We wanted a LB, JMFMD has said that in his post draft Interview. But none were available to us that did not require a reach, so we did not take one at all. Even though it was a TOP priority on his list. Same concept could/would apply to those other teams. Esp. NE.

And sorry for the attack. I seriously just watched the Avalanche give up two goals (which was the winner for the sharks) in less than maybe 3 minutes....I was pretty pissed off. Normally I debate with a cool head. My bad.

jlarsiii

04-24-2010, 11:51 PM

I'd say our front office clearly disagreed with your opinion, man.

Clearly. We get to live with their decisions so I hope, in time, that they all will work out for the club.

SM19

04-24-2010, 11:53 PM

I'd say our front office clearly disagreed with your opinion, man.

It's clear that they did. From what I've seen, they're very much in the minority of talent evaluators on that point.

NameUsedBefore

04-24-2010, 11:55 PM

honz

04-24-2010, 11:57 PM

It's clear that they did. From what I've seen, they're very much in the minority of talent evaluators on that point.
*cue the Tom Brady was a 6th round pick and Drew Brees was too short to play in the NFL arguments*

Time will tell, but at least we know Tebow will work his butt off and do whatever he can to get better and help the team.

honz

04-25-2010, 12:00 AM

I'm not catching the purpose of the argument, "Well the front office thought differently!" It's a bit redundant. Is it supposed to be like, these dudes are smarter? Because I don't think being a head coach automatically guards you from making totally stupid decisions.

The purpose is to show that people have different opinions, man...and that includes when it comes to talent evaluation. There's a lot of disagreement even between the two "experts" that work for ESPN. Maybe the Broncos are right, maybe they are wrong. A lot of "experts" have missed on a lot of good players over the years.

jlarsiii

04-25-2010, 12:00 AM

well you called it out that it was pure baloney that he would not have been there. That means that you must have Known for sure that the two guys would have been there later.

Ne probably thought we were going after Bryant or tebow, who knows for sure. I thought we were going bryant.

I am not full of it because those were the reports that came out. I didnt make them up. The reports were that NE, Buf, MIn, and someone else IIRC were intersted in Thomas and Tebow....Now if I made those up then I would be full of it. But I didnt. Of course the Bills guy already denied it- I am not sure if I believe him or not, but where there is smoke there is fire and why would he come out and say no...what does he gain from it. Why not let it disappear just like all the other garbage that goes on every year? It makes way to much sense that they would want him.

As for the other teams not drafting a Qb until the 6th etc....Well, look at us for your answer. We wanted a LB, JMFMD has said that in his post draft Interview. But none were available to us that did not require a reach, so we did not take one at all. Even though it was a TOP priority on his list. Same concept could/would apply to those other teams. Esp. NE.

And sorry for the attack. I seriously just watched the Avalanche give up two goals (which was the winner for the sharks) in less than maybe 3 minutes....I was pretty pissed off. Normally I debate with a cool head. My bad.

No worries. I started to watch some comedy on TV so I have toned it down a bit as well.

I don't trust reports stating that this team or that team were going to draft a player because it all seems to be subterfuge concerning the draft. I have a hard time believing report X and then not believing report Y when I have no basis of selection between them. I have no way of knowing if it is reliable info.

I do think Thomas would have been available at pick 24. I thought that when teams agreed to trade part of the deal was one team would agree to the trade if they got assurance from the team trading up that they were not intent on drafting the same player both teams want. I am sure belly asked McD this and got it cleared. So if that holds true then at least NE was not interested in taking Thomas, at least not at pick 22. That then leaves the Packers at pick 23 who were clearly looking to upgrade their O-line and were probably thrilled to take Bulaga. So he would have been there. Only issue would have been if someone traded up with NE or the Packers to take him. I can't really say either way about that scenario.

I think Tebow would have lasted into at least the beginning of round 2. If we had to have him it would make sense to move up at that point and take him. It would have cost us less. I can't change the picks that McD made. As a fan I will support Tebow as best I can. I just feel a loss of the draft picks we gave up considering how supposedly deep this draft was. That is what still stings a little bit. . .

underrated29

04-25-2010, 12:17 AM

I cant say I don't understand your point of view, because it makes perfect sense... Esp. the thomas one. But to me its not a biggie as it was a 4th. Yes there was great players still there in the 4th. But if it was someone we had to have we could have found a way to trade a player/future pick to nab him....

As for tebow- I guess it just comes down to if you really believe he is worth it....In January when I did my first anaylysis of him I thought he would succeed in the NFL but it would take the right team....Now after we have him, I have done a lot more studying up on him. Obvously I am not a mayock otherwise I would not be here, but the more and more I see of this kid. Not only do I think he will succeed, but I think he will be the first of his kind in a whole new breed of QB.

My 1 and only concern for him happens to be the most important aspect of a QB(to me) and that is ability to read defenses. That is IMO why Peyton is soo dam good. Not because he is accurate to a T, but because he knows where the open man will be before the snap. Every defense has a weakness, if you can diagnose it early you can not be stopped. Peyton can do that.....Tebow unfortunately I have not seen do this. But someone made a good point.....
Between Joshs tenacity and Tebows I would not bet against them. So In time I think Tebow can do that and be one of the greatest ever, in a whole new way to play QB. The Game is evolving always and I think Tebow is the next step in that evolution at QB.

So for our sakes (bronco fans) and of the draft itself, lets hope that Tebow is worth it.

Tned

04-25-2010, 12:42 AM

Why am I not surprised that most of the people who were complaining before the draft are still complaining afterwards?

Actually, a lot of the "McDaniels can do no wrong" crowd have been screaming the loudest about the Tebow pick.

Tempus Fugit

04-25-2010, 01:07 AM

I don't know if you are referring to me or not, but I like to think that I can voice my opinion on this message board to see what people think about it. I definitely didn't complain before the draft.

I just think it sucks that we could have had even more picks in this draft to add talent to the team and we traded them away. After all, we were not one D Thomas or T Tebow away from making it to the SB this coming season as it stands. We need to add more talent across the board to this team still IMO. . .

I didn't mean you, but I do think that people are complaining without thinking things through. The Broncos ended up with 9 picks, including 5 picks in the first 3 rounds, and 2 in the first round.

Positions addressed in the first 3 rounds:

WR (X2)
QB
C
OG

Seems to me that's a pretty good way to help improve the team over the next few years, if the players work out even at normal percentages. You're downgrading the draft because the team wheeled and dealed, and improved their draft position, and with multiple picks. That makes no sense to me. It's like complaining because you won the lottery on a week when it was only worth $3 million dollars and not $10 million.

Tempus Fugit

04-25-2010, 01:10 AM

Actually, a lot of the "McDaniels can do no wrong" crowd have been screaming the loudest about the Tebow pick.

1.) I certainly haven't seen "a lot" of that. I've seen mostly one person who's lost his mind.

2.) I didn't post about the "McDaniels can do no wrong" crowd, so your response is a bit of a red herring.

The Broncos had a solid draft in terms of maneuvering to get players. Whether those players pan out is for the future to tell us all.

Tned

04-25-2010, 01:14 AM

1.) I certainly haven't seen "a lot" of that. I've seen mostly one person who's lost his mind.

2.) I didn't post about the "McDaniels can do no wrong" crowd, so your response is a bit of a red herring.

The Broncos had a solid draft in terms of maneuvering to get players. Whether those players pan out is for the future to tell us all.

1.) You were either not on here Thursday night or have not gone back and read the posts.

2.) It is not a Red Herring and dead on target. You claim that the people complaining before the draft are the ones complaining most now. When in fact that many of the loudest complainers about the Tebow pick were the big McDaniels' supporters and many of those cheering the pick were McDaniels' critics.

It's ironic how the fan police now find it acceptable to criticize McDaniels, because they don't like the Tebow pick. What's that word I'm looking for... Hyp something or other...

Northman

04-25-2010, 01:17 AM

1.)

It's ironic how the fan police now find it acceptable to criticize McDaniels, because they don't like the Tebow pick. What's that word I'm looking for... Hyp something or other...

Im not sure i understand this post. Are you saying that people cant be down the middle in terms of McDaniels and his decisions and actions as a HC? Maybe ive missed something within this thread but i dont think you have to be on one side or the other when it comes to how one feels about McDaniels.

Tned

04-25-2010, 01:21 AM

Im not sure i understand this post. Are you saying that people cant be down the middle in terms of McDaniels and his decisions and actions as a HC? Maybe ive missed something within this thread but i dont think you have to be on one side or the other when it comes to how one feels about McDaniels.

Oh, I agree with your assertion in this post 100%, but that's not how the fan police have acted. You, and other McDaniels supporters, have mercilessly bashed anyone that has been at all critical of any of McDaniels moves, even when those same posters have also supported other things McDaniels has done.

It is therefore ironic, when some of the biggest fan police, that have flamed anyone saying anything critical of McDaniels, came out so hard against McDaniels' after the Tebow pick.

Tempus Fugit

04-25-2010, 01:22 AM

1.) You were either not on here Thursday night or have not gone back and read the posts.

I was here when Silka.... popped a gasket.

2.) It is not a Red Herring and dead on target. You claim that the people complaining before the draft are the ones complaining most now. When in fact that many of the loudest complainers about the Tebow pick were the big McDaniels' supporters and many of those cheering the pick were McDaniels' critics.

It's not on target at all, and it's definitely a red herring. Go back and read my post:

Why am I not surprised that most of the people who were complaining before the draft are still complaining afterwards?

Nowhere there does it claim that such people are the only ones complaining. It simply points out that the people crying before are crying now, despite the draft clearly addressing areas of need with extra high round draft picks.

It's ironic how the fan police now find it acceptable to criticize McDaniels, because they don't like the Tebow pick. What's that word I'm looking for... Hyp something or other...

Hypatia? Hypotenuse? Hyacinth? It's certainly not hypocrisy.

Tned

04-25-2010, 01:25 AM

Nowhere there does it claim that such people are the only ones complaining. It simply points out that the people crying before are crying now, despite the draft clearly addressing areas of need with extra high round draft picks.

That's an intentional distortion of facts on your part, because there are many people that were complaining before the draft, that are happy now, and there are plenty of people that were McDaniels cheer leaders before the draft that are whining now. You 'attempt' to spin it in a way that only McDaniel bashers are complaining now. It simply isn't true.

In fact, some of the loudest McDaniels critics on this forum have been praising this draft.

Northman

04-25-2010, 01:32 AM

Oh, I agree with your assertion in this post 100%, but that's not how the fan police have acted. You, and other McDaniels supporters, have mercilessly bashed anyone that has been at all critical of any of McDaniels moves, even when those same posters have also supported other things McDaniels has done.

It is therefore ironic, when some of the biggest fan police, that have flamed anyone saying anything critical of McDaniels, came out so hard against McDaniels' after the Tebow pick.

But thats not true though Tned. At least in my case. Every arguement or "bash" as you say ive done is when it comes to certain players on this team. I have yet to see anyone outside of you (on occasion) even give McDaniels ANY credit whatsover. Most of the arguements made by the critics have always been about Marshall and Cutler. Both of whom did not want to be Broncos for whatever reason. Both of whom had faults of their own that i did not agree with as a fan. So why wouldnt i argue my points on that particular topic? Furthermore, ive been critical of just one pick out of all the ones we made in this draft and stated so in my draft review thread. But ironically, ive NEVER once said "fire this *******, he will fail, blah blah blah". So you simply cant lump me in with that crowd. Ive always been on the fence with Mcd and have just as many expectations as you do when it comes to his failure or success here. The only reason ive ever butted heads with anyone is because of a couple of players of whom i felt brought a lot of the problems on themselves. I have no idea if Tebow is going to succeed here but i truly dont feel that it was necessary to grab him at that position nor at this time because of all the other things this team needs to succeed.

Tempus Fugit

04-25-2010, 01:34 AM

That's an intentional distortion of facts on your part, because there are many people that were complaining before the draft, that are happy now, and there are plenty of people that were McDaniels cheer leaders before the draft that are whining now. You 'attempt' to spin it in a way that only McDaniel bashers are complaining now. It simply isn't true.

In fact, some of the loudest McDaniels critics on this forum have been praising this draft.

Wait.... Now you're reading my mind and telling me about intentional distortions?

Please, stop, because this is getting ridiculous. The people who were whining about McDaniels before the draft are, for the most part that I've seen, still whining, despite the successful draft maneuvering that yielded extra picks in the high/middle rounds of an unusually deep draft. None of that is an intentional distortion, as you surely must know since my original post was clear and my follow up was explicit on the very point you claim is a distortion.

I'm not going to continue this further with you.

Tned

04-25-2010, 01:41 AM

But thats not true though Tned. At least in my case. Every arguement or "bash" as you say ive done is when it comes to certain players on this team. I have yet to see anyone outside of you (on occasion) even give McDaniels ANY credit whatsover. Most of the arguements made by the critics have always been about Marshall and Cutler. Both of whom did not want to be Broncos for whatever reason. Both of whom had faults of their own that i did not agree with as a fan. So why wouldnt i argue my points on that particular topic? Furthermore, ive been critical of just one pick out of all the ones we made in this draft and stated so in my draft review thread. But ironically, ive NEVER once said "fire this *******, he will fail, blah blah blah". So you simply cant lump me in with that crowd. Ive always been on the fence with Mcd and have just as many expectations as you do when it comes to his failure or success here. The only reason ive ever butted heads with anyone is because of a couple of players of whom i felt brought a lot of the problems on themselves. I have no idea if Tebow is going to succeed here but i truly dont feel that it was necessary to grab him at that position nor at this time because of all the other things this team needs to succeed.

Well, having been some of the people on the receiving end, I don't think some of you guys realize how hard you have come down on anyone the least bit critical of McDaniels. Hence the reason I found myself grinning and chuckling by the outrage over the pick on Thursday.

As for those players, just as you didn't think it was the right pick at the right time for Tebow, because of all the holes, I didn't think getting rid of players "just because they didn't want to be here" when they created 'massive' holes was smart. Albert Haynesworth doesn't want to be in Washington, Peppers didn't want to be in Carolina, the list goes on and on for miles of players that have asked for trades and then wound up with a team for many, many years.

It's a message board, and IMHO it would be a very boring one if we all had the exact same opinions, so I enjoy debating the opinions. I don't enjoy being bashed, or more importantly seeing others bashed, because they don't hold an opinion inline with the majority or most vocal part of the board.

Anyway, I didn't plan to get into a debate with you on this, but I was just responding to Fugit's completely inaccurate assertion that the people unhappy with the Tebow pick were the ones unhappy with McDaniels before the draft, since as I have said, many of the most critical of the pick were the biggest McD supporters and many that are the happiest about the pick were the biggest McD critics.

As to Tebow, I think it was a risk worth taking. Good or bad, right or wrong, McDaniels traded Cutler and Marshall, creating two HUGE holes to fill. Picking two projects in Thomas and Tebow have the potential to fill those holes. While a stud linebacker or impact D linemen would have been nice, the fact is that if this franchise is going to be dominant, it needs a long term solution at QB. Clearly McDaniels thinks that Tebow can be that person, and I am willing to see if he is right.

Tned

04-25-2010, 01:44 AM

Wait.... Now you're reading my mind and telling me about intentional distortions?

Please, stop, because this is getting ridiculous. The people who were whining about McDaniels before the draft are, for the most part that I've seen, still whining, despite the successful draft maneuvering that yielded extra picks in the high/middle rounds of an unusually deep draft. None of that is an intentional distortion, as you surely must know since my original post was clear and my follow up was explicit on the very point you claim is a distortion.

I'm not going to continue this further with you.

Your assertions were inaccurate, whether intentional or simply because you haven't been paying attention to who is whining. Not that it had anything to do with best or worst of the draft, anyway.

Northman

04-25-2010, 01:54 AM

Well, having been some of the people on the receiving end, I don't think some of you guys realize how hard you have come down on anyone the least bit critical of McDaniels. Hence the reason I found myself grinning and chuckling by the outrage over the pick on Thursday.

It's a message board, and IMHO it would be a very boring one if we all had the exact same opinions, so I enjoy debating the opinions. I don't enjoy being bashed, or more importantly seeing others bashed, because they don't hold an opinion inline with the majority or most vocal part of the board.

Everyone's been bashed on this board about one thing or another Tned. And ive seen you step out of line on more than one occasion. There are no angels here so please dont try and play it off like your some kind of victim here. Thats just flat out ridiculous.

Tned

04-25-2010, 02:01 AM

Everyone's been bashed on this board about one thing or another Tned. And ive seen you step out of line on more than one occasion. There are no angels here so please dont try and play it off like your some kind of victim here. Thats just flat out ridiculous.

Well, lets just leave it at this. I have been very amused watching so many of the fan police getting ticked at McDaniels' pick. It's been hard to bite my tongue (or fingers if you will) and not say, "you just don't like the Tebow pick because you're a McDaniels hater!!" ;)

Northman

04-25-2010, 02:06 AM

Well, lets just leave it at this. I have been very amused watching so many of the fan police getting ticked at McDaniels' pick. It's been hard to bite my tongue (or fingers if you will) and not say, "you just don't like the Tebow pick because you're a McDaniels hater!!" ;)

Which would be silly and inaccurate on your part. At least when you try and lump me in with that crowd. A McDaniel hater doesnt like anything the guy does and very few of the ones who have been doing the dumping have rarely stated anything positive about the guy. But for myself, ive always stated pros and cons even during this current draft. So yea dude, go ahead and bait away if it makes you feel better. Whatever. :coffee:

Tned

04-25-2010, 02:13 AM

Which would be silly and inaccurate on your part. At least when you try and lump me in with that crowd. A McDaniel hater doesnt like anything the guy does and very few of the ones who have been doing the dumping have rarely stated anything positive about the guy. But for myself, ive always stated pros and cons even during this current draft. So yea dude, go ahead and bait away if it makes you feel better. Whatever. :coffee:

As to baiting, I responded to a completely inaccurate statement by Fugis and you disagreed with it and we discussed it. It's fine, we clearly have a difference of opinion about the role of the fan police this past year.

Anyway, I said my piece, you said yours, probably not much left to say on the subject.

Nomad

04-25-2010, 06:45 AM

Give this team/players a chance to develop before giving them a fail rating, why is that so hard to ask. Tebow did an outstanding job in college because I watched him just his whole career and he has just as much chance of being a solid NFL QB as any. I know many of you hate the college comparison's but I believe Tebow played tougher defenses his entire college career than Bradford and especially Clausen.

T.K.O.

04-25-2010, 09:23 AM

I'd bet both of my nuts that McD and Xanders had a better idea of where Tebow was gonna go than we did...and I'm working with a pair of nut implants!

belicheck was goin' after tebow....maybe later maybe not....he had more than enough picks to grab him whenever he felt he had to.
and josh just had to make sure he scooped him on his former boss.....it was a sweet move.
tebow is an athelete and a damn good one.mcD seems confident that he can fix his mechanics and make a starting qb out of the guy.(i think he can as well)
the post draft presser was the first time i really heard mcD say the qb job is up for grabs....and he did'nt say in 2011 or beyond. he said the best man will win the job.so that means he see's more in tebow than quinn.
it's gonna be alot of fun to watch camp competition this year.
hell ,last year we had a 6th rndr,the speenless wonder and K.O.
this year were gonna have 2 first rnd qb's and a more polished orton with a year in the system.
i like where were sitting just at qb let alone the other upgrades in the trenches.
this team will be much better within the next year or 2 than weve seen in a while:salute:

jlarsiii

04-25-2010, 10:35 AM

I didn't mean you, but I do think that people are complaining without thinking things through. The Broncos ended up with 9 picks, including 5 picks in the first 3 rounds, and 2 in the first round.

Positions addressed in the first 3 rounds:

WR (X2)
QB
C
OG

Seems to me that's a pretty good way to help improve the team over the next few years, if the players work out even at normal percentages. You're downgrading the draft because the team wheeled and dealed, and improved their draft position, and with multiple picks. That makes no sense to me. It's like complaining because you won the lottery on a week when it was only worth $3 million dollars and not $10 million.

You have me confused at this point. I don't remember downgrading this draft in any way, shape, or form. Overall I am happy with the players that the team is bringing in. I still think that the haul could have been even more impressive if we had kept even more of the picks that we had acquired by trading back in the 1st.

Why is it that everybody is happy with the picks we did execute, but it makes no sense when someone (like myself) comes along and states that it could have been even better if we had kept even one of those extra picks in the first 4 rounds? How does that make no sense?:confused:

In a supposedly deep draft we had an opportunity to maximize the talent and number of players brought in. We made moves and increased the number of picks we had, but we could have maybe brought in an extra 1 or 2 players that would have been the icing on the cake so to speak. After all, more bodies in training camp with more talent equals a better chance to have an overall improved team. How does adding talent and players make no sense when that is clearly what this team needs and is working towards?

Tned

04-25-2010, 10:39 AM

You have me confused at this point. I don't remember downgrading this draft in any way, shape, or form. Overall I am happy with the players that the team is bringing in. I still think that the haul could have been even more impressive if we had kept even more of the picks that we had acquired by trading back in the 1st.

Why is it that everybody is happy with the picks we did execute, but it makes no sense when someone (like myself) comes along and states that it could have been even better if we had kept even one of those extra picks in the first 4 rounds? How does that make no sense?:confused:

In a supposedly deep draft we had an opportunity to maximize the talent and number of players brought in. We made moves and increased the number of picks we had, but we could have maybe brought in an extra 1 or 2 players that would have been the icing on the cake so to speak. After all, more bodies in training camp with more talent equals a better chance to have an overall improved team. How does adding talent and players make no sense when that is clearly what this team needs and is working towards?

It's not that keeping those extra picks didn't make any sense, it just wasn't what McDaniels wanted. He didn't just want to stock pile picks in the mid rounds, but instead draft two players 'he' believes will be long term, impact players for the Broncos.

From that perspective, him being locked on to grabbing those two players, what he did was very well executed.

Northman

04-25-2010, 10:39 AM

Ravage!!!

04-25-2010, 10:48 AM

It's not that keeping those extra picks didn't make any sense, it just wasn't what McDaniels wanted. He didn't just want to stock pile picks in the mid rounds, but instead draft two players 'he' believes will be long term, impact players for the Broncos.

From that perspective, him being locked on to grabbing those two players, what he did was very well executed.

It also shows that, like in last year's draft, he doesn't value draft picks. He wanted Alphonso.. and he wanted Quinn. Its as if he get bored and just wants to move up.

I get wehat you are saying. He moved up for the players he wanted.... which just puts more pressure on that pick BETTER be right. Because this was one of the deepest drafts in a decade and we had a chance to REALLY add some solid starters/depth/future to this team.

From what we've seen so far in the few number of drafts he's had..... he likes to spend draft choices for risks. If the risk Tebow works out, it will be his first.

jlarsiii

04-25-2010, 10:52 AM

It's not that keeping those extra picks didn't make any sense, it just wasn't what McDaniels wanted. He didn't just want to stock pile picks in the mid rounds, but instead draft two players 'he' believes will be long term, impact players for the Broncos.

From that perspective, him being locked on to grabbing those two players, what he did was very well executed.

Yes and no. I don't think that his intention was to stock pile or hoard mid-round picks. I don't mean to split hairs but I would hope that McD values the draft picks he does have so that he doesn't just give them away for a lark. . .

I know I am being nit-picky but by the end of our second trade down in the 1st with Philly I was absolutely drooling about the picks we had acquired and the possibility of addressing multiple team needs in a deep draft. I initially disliked the Tebow pick, but for the most I am over that now. It is taking me a little longer to get over the opportunity we had to add even more players to the team with some of those picks we traded away.

I won't argue about whether their were well executed moves because I have never made an argument that they weren't. I like the decisiveness even if I don't necessarily agree with every move McD has made in the 2 drafts he has conducted for our team. . .

Tned

04-25-2010, 10:56 AM

It also shows that, like in last year's draft, he doesn't value draft picks. He wanted Alphonso.. and he wanted Quinn. Its as if he get bored and just wants to move up.

I get wehat you are saying. He moved up for the players he wanted.... which just puts more pressure on that pick BETTER be right. Because this was one of the deepest drafts in a decade and we had a chance to REALLY add some solid starters/depth/future to this team.

From what we've seen so far in the few number of drafts he's had..... he likes to spend draft choices for risks. If the risk Tebow works out, it will be his first.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying he moved up to get the player he wanted. I'm saying he executed a draft strategy to move BACK to stock pile picks, to allow him to then move back into the first to get his guy, without giving up his whole draft to do it.

This isn't a Mike Ditka/Ricky Williams situation.

McDaniels entered the draft with a 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

He moved back to stock pile picks, and then moved up when necessary and wound up with a 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd.

So, in essence, he used one first and one second to get Tebow and Thomas. That is NOT a huge price. Yes, in the maneuvering, we lost a few positions in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but we also converted a 4th into a 3rd.

If he had simply selected a player at 12 and then given up 2nd, 3rd and 4th for Tebow, then I would buy into the 'cost' that is being touted, but when you consider that the whole reason he moved back and stock piled picks was to turn them into Tebow, while basically keeping the rest of his draft picks in place, then you can't really argue about the 'cost' of Tebow.

jlarsiii

04-25-2010, 11:04 AM

Just to be clear, I'm not saying he moved up to get the player he wanted. I'm saying he executed a draft strategy to move BACK to stock pile picks, to allow him to then move back into the first to get his guy, without giving up his whole draft to do it.

This isn't a Mike Ditka/Ricky Williams situation.

McDaniels entered the draft with a 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

He moved back to stock pile picks, and then moved up when necessary and wound up with a 1st, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd.

So, in essence, he used one first and one second to get Tebow and Thomas. That is NOT a huge price. Yes, in the maneuvering, we lost a few positions in the 2nd and 3rd rounds, but we also converted a 4th into a 3rd.

If he had simply selected a player at 12 and then given up 2nd, 3rd and 4th for Tebow, then I would buy into the 'cost' that is being touted, but when you consider that the whole reason he moved back and stock piled picks was to turn them into Tebow, while basically keeping the rest of his draft picks in place, then you can't really argue about the 'cost' of Tebow.

But you can argue about the cost. Just like A Smith gets judged by the fact that we traded a 1st round pick to move up in the 2nd round last year to draft him, Tebow will be judged in much the same way.

I understand that when it was all said and done the overall number of picks we had and their location in the draft were very similar, but it is faulty logic to say that there was no cost to get Tebow in the first. The cost was 3 draft picks in this year's draft. No matter how you try to portray it or state it that was the cost and Tebow will forever be tied to it IMO.

Denver Native (Carol)

04-25-2010, 11:11 AM

With Coach McD wheeling and dealing - did we end up with more picks, rather than if he would have have done no wheeling and dealing, and drafted according to the picks/positions he started with?

Tned

04-25-2010, 11:16 AM

But you can argue about the cost. Just like A Smith gets judged by the fact that we traded a 1st round pick to move up in the 2nd round last year to draft him, Tebow will be judged in much the same way.

I understand that when it was all said and done the overall number of picks we had and their location in the draft were very similar, but it is faulty logic to say that there was no cost to get Tebow in the first. The cost was 3 draft picks in this year's draft. No matter how you try to portray it or state it that was the cost and Tebow will forever be tied to it IMO.

It's inconsequential. Regardless of the picks used on him, it is going to be very clear whether he succeeds or fails. There is no more pressure on him to succeed because their were three early/mid round picks. If we had used the 12 on Thomas and the first 2nd on Tebow (or vice versa), he would be under the exact same microscope, and the rest of our draft picks would have looked basically identical.

The head coach is being judged/raked over the coals for using picks that he got through maneuvering on draft day for the sole purpose of using them to draft Tebow. It's not like with A. Smith where he gave up a future first, but instead used a current 1st and 2nd to draft the two players he wanted.

Tned

04-25-2010, 11:19 AM

With Coach McD wheeling and dealing - did we end up with more picks, rather than if he would have have done no wheeling and dealing, and drafted according to the picks/positions he started with?

In the end, the same number of picks (not counting his last minute trade for the two 7th rounders).

Basically, the net result was that he turned a 1st and 2nd round pick into two late first round picks, and turned a 4th round pick into a 3rd round pick.

The only other cost was we did move back a couple spots in 2nd and 3rd rounds, but you can argue that was offset by changing that 4th into a 3rd.

But, bottom line, he took the 12th pick and a 2nd round pick and turned them into 2 late round firsts (22nd and 25th) to get the players he wanted, while leaving the rest of the draft intact.

Tempus Fugit

04-25-2010, 11:20 AM

It also shows that, like in last year's draft, he doesn't value draft picks. He wanted Alphonso.. and he wanted Quinn. Its as if he get bored and just wants to move up.

I get wehat you are saying. He moved up for the players he wanted.... which just puts more pressure on that pick BETTER be right. Because this was one of the deepest drafts in a decade and we had a chance to REALLY add some solid starters/depth/future to this team.

From what we've seen so far in the few number of drafts he's had..... he likes to spend draft choices for risks. If the risk Tebow works out, it will be his first.

It shows nothing of the kind. When will people realize that you don't collect picks and mount them on your walls like trophies? You collect picks to get the players you want. Patriots fans aren't crying because Belichick traded up in the draft after trading down. That's because they understand the process. Maybe your problem is a lack of that same understanding, because when you enter the draft with, for example:

1.2.3.4.5.6.7 and leave the draft with 1,2,2,3,3,6, you've generally done some quality maneuvering.

Maybe this is something that Broncos fans who haven't looked at Belichick's draft day history will have to get used to, because McDaniels seems to be taking that same approach, with the exception of his not yet trading into the next year. Whether that's a reflection of his belief that he needs the picks now, or just a different overall approach is something people will see over time.

Tempus Fugit

04-25-2010, 11:21 AM

Oh, and here are Rick Gosselin's grades. According to him, Denver got an "A":

The Broncos had the best third round of this draft. Walton can do at center for Josh McDaniels' Broncos what Tom Nalen did for Mike Shanahan's Broncos, and Decker will remind the Denver faithful of Ed McCaffrey.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/042510dnspogoosegrades.3f4b050.html

Northman

04-25-2010, 11:28 AM

He gave them an "A" and i gave them a "B". Close enough.

Tned

04-25-2010, 11:33 AM

He gave them an "A" and i gave them a "B". Close enough.

I gave them a C, because he drafted two major projects in the first round, and no matter how much we talk about how good or bad they will be, until one or both of those players show they can produce on the field, IMO it's impossible to give this draft a good grade.

As with last year, a lot of the guys he picked were considered reaches by the talking heads. Not that they weren't good players, but simply that they went earlier than other teams were expected to take them. That, like with the Quinn/Smith picks, means that he went for players he targeted rather than going the BPA route.

So, I can't with any sincerity give this draft a B or A until I see if we get a starting center out of it, and if his two HUGE projects pan out.

Northman

04-25-2010, 11:34 AM

I gave them a C, because he drafted two major projects in the first round, and no matter how much we talk about how good or bad they will be, until one or both of those players show they can produce on the field, IMO it's impossible to give this draft a good grade.

As with last year, a lot of the guys he picked were considered reaches by the talking heads. Not that they weren't good players, but simply that they went earlier than other teams were expected to take them. That, like with the Quinn/Smith picks, means that he went for players he targeted rather than going the BPA route.

So, I can't with any sincerity give this draft a B or A until I see if we get a starting center out of it, and if his two HUGE projects pan out.

True dat, but based off potential i think its ok to grade them accordingly. But i get your drift, they all could fail miserably.

Tempus Fugit

04-25-2010, 11:37 AM

Nomad

04-25-2010, 11:44 AM

Every quarterback drafted, every year, is a project.

That's why I believe it's premature for analysts and fans to label certain ones 'franchise' before they have proven themselves!!

honz

04-25-2010, 11:45 AM

That's why I believe it's premature for analysts and fans to label certain ones 'franchise' before they have proven themselves!!

It's also premature to label them as hacks or busts.

Tned

04-25-2010, 11:46 AM

Every quarterback drafted, every year, is a project.

True dat, but based off potential i think its ok to grade them accordingly. But i get your drift, they all could fail miserably.

Yes, but one of the main topics before and after the round one picks, on TV, in papers, and on this message board, is whether Tebow has any legit shot of being a starting NFL QB and there is nothing close to a consensus. That isn't typical of a QB selected in the first round.

Thomas is a project WR, that many don't think will be able to contribute right away, where someone like Dez Bryant (and even Decker if his foot is healthy) would be expected to produce as a rookie.

McDaniels took a couple boom/bust type players in the first round, which means it's hard to grade them based on potential, because depending on which 'expert' you listen to, that potential could lead to A grades or it could lead to F grades.

Nomad

04-25-2010, 11:47 AM

It's also premature to label them as hacks or busts.

I agree!!

Tned

04-25-2010, 11:48 AM

I agree!!

It's also premature to agree....

Ok, I just wanted to use premature in a sentence, because everyone else was... ;)

Tempus Fugit

04-25-2010, 11:57 AM

Yes, but one of the main topics before and after the round one picks, on TV, in papers, and on this message board, is whether Tebow has any legit shot of being a starting NFL QB and there is nothing close to a consensus. That isn't typical of a QB selected in the first round.

It's also irrelevant. Ryan Leaf, Rick Mirer and many, many others demonstrate just how irrelevant, and they were drafted much higher. There's always the question of whether even the top QB taken in a draft has any legit shot of being a starting NFL QB, and consensus is meaningless. Onl

Thomas is a project WR, that many don't think will be able to contribute right away, where someone like Dez Bryant (and even Decker if his foot is healthy) would be expected to produce as a rookie.

Many/most wide receivers, like most quarterbacks, don't contribute significantly right away. That doesn't make them boom/bust any more than the rest of their group. Ochocinco had fewer than 30 catches as a rookie, yet he still turned out pretty good. Chris Carter didn't break the 50 catch mark until his 5th season, and he's a potential HOFer. Also, you're pointing to all the negatives about Tebow coming from the analysts, but you completely ignored them when referring to Bryant. That's a bit of selective usage.

McDaniels took a couple boom/bust type players in the first round, which means it's hard to grade them based on potential, because depending on which 'expert' you listen to, that potential could lead to A grades or it could lead to F grades.

Other than the rarest of players (Peyton Manning types), this is true of just about every player ever drafted, and even Manning had his detractors heading into the draft.

atwater27

04-25-2010, 12:05 PM

belicheck was goin' after tebow....maybe later maybe not....he had more than enough picks to grab him whenever he felt he had to.
and josh just had to make sure he scooped him on his former boss.....it was a sweet move.
tebow is an athelete and a damn good one.mcD seems confident that he can fix his mechanics and make a starting qb out of the guy.(i think he can as well)
the post draft presser was the first time i really heard mcD say the qb job is up for grabs....and he did'nt say in 2011 or beyond. he said the best man will win the job.so that means he see's more in tebow than quinn.
it's gonna be alot of fun to watch camp competition this year.
hell ,last year we had a 6th rndr,the speenless wonder and K.O.
this year were gonna have 2 first rnd qb's and a more polished orton with a year in the system.
i like where were sitting just at qb let alone the other upgrades in the trenches.
this team will be much better within the next year or 2 than weve seen in a while:salute:Man, between you and the other orton guys and the quinn guys, there is going to be some serious username changing going on around here soon.

Tned

04-25-2010, 12:07 PM

It's also irrelevant. Ryan Leaf, Rick Mirer and many, many others demonstrate just how irrelevant, and they were drafted much higher. There's always the question of whether even the top QB taken in a draft has any legit shot of being a starting NFL QB, and consensus is meaningless. Onl

Many/most wide receivers, like most quarterbacks, don't contribute significantly right away. That doesn't make them boom/bust any more than the rest of their group. Ochocinco had fewer than 30 catches as a rookie, yet he still turned out pretty good. Chris Carter didn't break the 50 catch mark until his 5th season, and he's a potential HOFer.

Other than the rarest of players (Peyton Manning types), this is true of just about every player ever drafted, and even Manning had his detractors heading into the draft.

All of that is why I don't think you can truly grade a draft until 2-3 years down the road. Since we are grading this draft now, and we have more high risk players than normal, I choose to give it a C, but have hopes that in time it will prove to be an A.

atwater27

04-25-2010, 12:08 PM

Oh, and here are Rick Gosselin's grades. According to him, Denver got an "A":

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/stories/042510dnspogoosegrades.3f4b050.html

I can show you ten other experts that gave them a much worse grade. So why even post the experts. We won't know for a couple of years anyways.

Tempus Fugit

04-25-2010, 12:09 PM

All of that is why I don't think you can truly grade a draft until 2-3 years down the road. Since we are grading this draft now, and we have more high risk players than normal, I choose to give it a C, but have hopes that in time it will prove to be an A.

But, again, if you can't truly grade a draft, why are you giving the draft a grade, especially one that's clearly nothing better than middle of the road? Using your assertion, you should be handing out 32 incompletes.

Tned

04-25-2010, 12:15 PM

But, again, if you can't truly grade a draft, why are you giving the draft a grade, especially one that's clearly nothing better than middle of the road? Using your assertion, you should be handing out 32 incompletes.

:confused: Did someone piss in your Wheaties or molest your cat? Or, do you just like being disagreeable??

It is a thread about grading the draft, which I did and gave my reasons for. You are certainly free to grade it however you want and give your reasons.

I have stated that the reason that the grade is a C is because of the two big projects taken in the first round. Some college players are considered NFL ready, while others are considered projects. For instance, many, many experts believed Clady was a project and wouldn't be capable of starting for several years. Clearly they were wrong, but coming out of the gate he was considered a starter vs. other tackles who were expected to be contributors from game one.

Most think it will take Tebow a couple years to be ready to start. Thomas is considered to be a big talent, but very raw, with limited route-running skills (due to the offense he played in).

Since our two biggest picks are both projects that aren't expected to be able to start/produce from day one, and there is even some doubt as to whether they can ever start in the NFL, short of bending over and blowing smoke up my own ass and living in a dream world, there is no way for me to give this draft an A now, with so many questions, more than most drafts, looming.

P.S. The other reason for grading the draft and talking about it, is that we have 3+ months to kill before training camp begins.

atwater27

04-25-2010, 12:17 PM

But, again, if you can't truly grade a draft, why are you giving the draft a grade, especially one that's clearly nothing better than middle of the road? Using your assertion, you should be handing out 32 incompletes.

Why even have this website? Why even come here? Why even talk? Why even debate? It is the purpose of the site, for people to argue, debate, agree, disagree, have opinion, right wrong whatever. We have all been right on some opinions and dead wrong on others.

Tempus Fugit

04-25-2010, 12:18 PM

I can show you ten other experts that gave them a much worse grade. So why even post the experts. We won't know for a couple of years anyways.

First, I'm not the one who started a thread with a draft grade link.

Second, Gosselin is one of the most respected writers/analysts in the game.

While I agree with you that grading drafts is a bit silly, it's done to pass the time and generate discussion. As long as people are consistent and honest in their reasoning, I have no problem with that. What hacks me off is people using inconsistent arguments instead of just admitting that they came to their conclusions for irrational reasons like "Tebow can't throw!" when the guy was completing more than 2/3 of his passes.

Tempus Fugit

04-25-2010, 12:22 PM

Why even have this website? Why even come here? Why even talk? Why even debate? It is the purpose of the site, for people to argue, debate, agree, disagree, have opinion, right wrong whatever. We have all been right on some opinions and dead wrong on others.

When you say that you can't grade a draft, and then you grade a draft, well, you figure it out.

atwater27

04-25-2010, 12:22 PM

First, I'm not the one who started a thread with a draft grade link.

Second, Gosselin is one of the most respected writers/analysts in the game.

While I agree with you that grading drafts is a bit silly, it's done to pass the time and generate discussion. As long as people are consistent and honest in their reasoning, I have no problem with that. What hacks me off is people using inconsistent arguments instead of just admitting that they came to their conclusions for irrational reasons like "Tebow can't throw!" when the guy was completing more than 2/3 of his passes.

The problem is that you are coming at TNED like a pitbull and pretty much attack mode for his opinions. And as far as the 2/3rd of his passes thing, come on, the NFL annals are littered with very promising quarterbacks who absolutely dominated in college...who fell flat on their faces in the big leagues.

Tempus Fugit

04-25-2010, 12:29 PM

The problem is that you are coming at TNED like a pitbull and pretty much attack mode for his opinions. And as far as the 2/3rd of his passes thing, come on, the NFL annals are littered with very promising quarterbacks who absolutely dominated in college...who fell flat on their faces in the big leagues.

My posts have not been about Tneds opinions of the players, but about the consistency of the reasoning. Tebow could be the next J. Russell for all I know, and he could also be the next Steve Young.

As for coming at like a pit bull, go take a look at how Tned was responding to me last night.

Denver Native (Carol)

04-25-2010, 12:48 PM

The grades now being given are nothing more than based on what the players did in college, as well as to how these "experts" feel they will fit into the scheme of things for the team that drafted them.- that's all it can be. Therefore, by saying that - projecting how teams did in the draft is nothing more than people's opinions. ONLY TIME WILL TELL. Some of these draft picks which some feel are great, may not even make a team, while some that others feel were a terrible choice, may end up not only making the team that drafted them, but work their way into a starter's role. Once again - perfect example - Rod Smith - not drafted, started out on the practice squad, retired being one of the greatest WRs in Broncos' history.

horsepig

04-25-2010, 12:56 PM

I give this Broncos draft an A.

They picked up two guys who I feel have realistic potential to become truly great players. That's all you can do, make your evaluations and go with them. If you're wrong a lot you end up doing something else. As for all the middle pick swapping, Tned's right about McD doing a masterful job of manipulating the system to get what he wanted, and make no doubt about it, he wanted Tebow BAD.

If you decide to cast your lot with a couple of guys and then miss out on them because you didn't pull the trigger at the right time you're whole plan is screwed. McD handled it perfectly IMO to get those two guys. Maybe he could have sat pat and got them for less, maybe not. Point is he got the ones he wanted.

The rest of the picks are quite good IMO. I would like to have picked up a mean basturd ILB and a bruiser RB but, we get those next year. All in all, I feel they seriously upgraded the talent level and POTENTIAL competiveness of this team--grade A.