How Shanny is Turning This Team Around

[Ziggy]

Denver has had some serious problems falling behind other teams in talent and competetiveness. Looking at the roster and the film, the root of it can be traced to 2 areas. The offensive and defensive lines. We have been bullied at the line of scrimmage and in the red zone for too long. What is Denver doing about it you may ask? Let's take a look.

Last year's draft was spent entirely on both lines. This year's draft? The 1st, 3rd, and 6th picks Denver held were spent on the lines along with a trade for Dwayne Robertson prior to the draft. Are these guys going to pan out? Only time will tell. The Broncos are investing in the line of scrimmmage.

The offensive side of the ball:
The Broncos are moving towards bigger, stronger lineman that can play in the zbs and still hold thier own against the bigger defensive lines in pass protection. Montrae Holland-322 pounds, Ryan Clady-320 pounds, Ryan Harris-300 pounds Kris Kuper-302 pounds Erik Pears-305 pounds Kory Lichtensteiger- 310 pounds These are some of the names you can expect to see on Sundays manning the O-line for Denver in the next 2-3 years, if not sooner. Smaller lineman like Nalen, Hamilton, and Wegeman are sure to get thier time this season, but due to injuries and age, might be in thier last year or 2.
Has the era of the zbs come to an end? No, but I think it's time to usher in the era of the zbs with 300+ lb lineman. Times, they are a changing. Atheletes are getting bigger, stronger, and faster every year. We can now find lineman at 300-330 pounds that have the athletic ability to play in this scheme. The downfall of the zbs has been been decreased pass protection due to the size of lineman used to run it. Mark Schlereth recently admitted so in an interview on NFL today. Shanahan has seen this, and is addressing it aggressively.

On the defensive side of the ball:
Last year we tried to run a scheme that has worked on other teams by bringing in the guru of that defense(Bates) and aquiring personel that would fit that scheme on paper. Instead of bringing in an athlete like Dwayne Robertson at DT, we bring in an aging DT that weighs 350 pounds because he fits the defense "on paper". It was a horrible failure. Count on Slowik to use a scheme that best suits the abilities and strengths of the players on the roster. What that scheme is exactly, none of us know. I do know that it will involve using the strengths of the players on the field. Shanahan has brought in athletes, and spent high draft picks on the D-line. What kind of D-tackles do we have now? The kind that have the athletic ability to play in multiple schemes and defensive sets. On the edge, we have speed rushers(Moss and Doom),with the ability to bring in power guys like Crowder and Peterson. In Powell, Thomas, and Robertson, we have 3 DT that can hold thier own at the point of attack. Now the success of this defense will be heavily reliant on how the young guys progress in thier second year, and how Robertson adjusts to a new defense. There are always IFS that factor in to a team's success. 2 things that can't be taught are speed and heart, and the Broncos have been aquiring plenty of both.

If the Broncos investments in the lines turn out to be failures, I still applaud the effort. If we're going to make mistakes, let's make them building up trenches, and not on sexy picks that belong more on a Madden video game than they do on the field.

[honz]

Excellent post. I think the Broncos are going to be more competitive this year than a lot of fans think. We had a lot of injuries last year and I think we played below our talent level...not to mention our defense showed absolutely no heart.

I'm excited for the season to start! Go Broncos!

[lex]

I think he's turning it around with hugs. More hugs is really what it comes down to.

[Day1BroncoFan]

I hope you are right and that all this pans out over the next few years. This year would be good to see some of the results and get a feel for what we have now and if it will work out better for us.

[jrelway]

this draft class was filled with good linemen. and good linemen only. maybe some decent WR's..will our bigger heavier O linesmen be able to zone block though. i always thought the quicker smaller linemen were good at zb schemes.

[Ziggy]

this draft class was filled with good linemen. and good linemen only. maybe some decent WR's..will our bigger heavier O linesmen be able to zone block though. i always thought the quicker smaller linemen were good at zb schemes.

I beleive that they can. These guys are bigger, but just as athletic, and just hopefully just as skilled, if not more so.

[Drill-N-Fill]

this draft class was filled with good linemen. and good linemen only. maybe some decent WR's..will our bigger heavier O linesmen be able to zone block though. i always thought the quicker smaller linemen were good at zb schemes.

Shanny has always said that the guys he targets aren't small. Its just he needs athletic lineman and when they usually choose O-line its late in the draft, where all the athletic lineman are smaller. This is why he went for the big fella, he's just as (if not more) athletic as the smaller ones we used to get.

I think the biggest change is going to come in special teams. There was a reason why Shanny chose the Safety Barret(sp?) and Williams, they are suposed to be very good on special team coverage.

[Lonestar]

Well lets hope so I have been an advocate of getting bigger for 5 years or more..

Everyone has said we have to be athletic for ZBS.. therefore smaller.

There is no law out there that says a big guys can't play ZBS, the only reason we taken the later round guys. Then spent 2-5 years working them into the system was they were cheap and frankly folks Mikeys day one drafting outside of LB has left alot to be desired..

There is no reason that clady can't be the guy IF he can wrap his head around mikeys play book.. With his wunderlick score, that seems to be the only question. He has been playing ZBS for 3 years so should have the basics down already..

Mikey seems to have finally figured out what every other GM and HC has already you win and lose games on the LOS.. Once you get inside the 10 yard line our guys simply were not able to finesse the goal line defenses out of position..

[Drill-N-Fill]

Wonderlik doesn't mean anything :listen: There is too much emphesis on it. Some people don't do well on exams, but when they see the field they kick a$$.

Griese had an excellent wonderlik score, Marino had a horrible one. Its all about how much effort you put to get better...that and talent.

[Lonestar]

Wonderlik doesn't mean anything :listen: There is too much emphesis on it. Some people don't do well on exams, but when they see the field they kick a$$.

Griese had an excellent wonderlik score, Marino had a horrible one. Its all about how much effort you put to get better...that and talent.

Well I believe they do count.Remember that wunderlick was a novelty back in 1983 when Marino and group took them..

greasy was a great QB just had ZERO personalty, could not get along with his teammates, was to cerebral..

Hopefully Graham can be his training wheels until he gets it down pat..

But I'm not holding my breath that he will not be another foster.. He has all the talent and physical requirements..

But how many false starts are going to cost us games over the next 10 years..

I hope I'm wrong..

[Superchop 7]

From what I've read about Slowik.

He likes man coverage (a strength of ours, especially with Paymah)

He likes bringing the heat. (Thank friggin God)

Still doesn't use much 3 technique for DT's, wants linebackers to make plays.

He does not line up the defensive ends 4 yards outside of the Tight end. (I never understood that one Bates, no wonder they could run on us)

Prefers 8 in the box.

Hands the guys an assignment they are comfortable with. (no more confusion)

Allows players to change the play. (If it's "their" call they will always try harder)

The nice thing is that it's year number "two" for 3 of our guys, the improvement from year 1 to year 2 on d-line is significant. (Although Moss will still be behind due to injury, he might not break out till next year)

Clady is a much better prospect than Foster was. I think he will be a stud.

The "really" smart thing the Bronco's did is try to upgrade Fullback. (to help Clady block)

[Lonestar]

lets hope slowlic is better here at DC than he was before..

[WARHORSE]

Mikey seems to have finally figured out what every other GM and HC has already you win and lose games on the LOS.. Once you get inside the 10 yard line our guys simply were not able to finesse the goal line defenses out of position..


I wish he had that figured out when Terrell Davis was tearing up the post season and setting records. Heck, if our superbowl lines had the knowledge of Shanahan today in the mind of Shanahan back then, our runningback would probably hold the all time single season rushing record in the history of the NFL!!!!!!



:confused:


Wait a minute..............


:confused:


Terrell Davis does hold the single season all time rushing record.:shocked:



Wow............the universe is ours...............;)

[Tned]

Excellent post. I think the Broncos are going to be more competitive this year than a lot of fans think. We had a lot of injuries last year and I think we played below our talent level...not to mention our defense showed absolutely no heart.

I'm excited for the season to start! Go Broncos!

I tihnk the Broncos will be a lot more competitive than most think.

The second biggest problem our offense had last year was all the injuries on the offensive line, inluding Lepsis losing a step from the previous years injury.

The first biggest problem with our offense was Heimerdinger's influence on the offense and him spending two years trying to force an offensive scheme on to the team that didn't match the personell (specifically the offensive line).

With the line appearing to be in better shape with hamilton and Nalen back, along with the young guys with another year of experience and Clady at RT or LT, Cutler should see some better protection. Add to that another year of experience for Cutler and the offense should be more productive, assuming the Broncos get back to the bread and butter offense that has worked so well for them during the Shanny tenure.

On Defense, Bates was a disaster. Starting the year he had the LBs playing 7-10 yards off the LOS and the D-line spread out and not stopping the run. by the time the LBs made a play, it was 2nd and 3, because he had the LBs playing in deep center field.

Rather than playing to our strength, which was 8 in the box, with agressive blitzing and letting our leagues best corner duo fending for themselves, we played defenses that created no pressure and gave the QBs and WRs all the time in the world to get open. No matter how good a DB is, if the WR has enough time, he will get open.

So, with some personell upgrades (Robertson, Clady, maybe B. Bailey) and playing offensive and defensive schemes that actually match our personell, I expect the team to be much better than last year.

Then again, I am sure I just drank a little too much koolaid this weekend.

[Ziggy]

I wish he had that figured out when Terrell Davis was tearing up the post season and setting records. Heck, if our superbowl lines had the knowledge of Shanahan today in the mind of Shanahan back then, our runningback would probably hold the all time single season rushing record in the history of the NFL!!!!!!



:confused:


Wait a minute..............


:confused:


Terrell Davis does hold the single season all time rushing record.:shocked:



Wow............the universe is ours...............;)

People tend to forget that TD ran behind a great line when he set those records. LT- Zimmerman HOF, and Tony Jones, pro bowler LG- Mark Schlereth pro bowler, C- a young Tom Nalen in his prime, pro bowler RG- Brian Habib, very underrated RT- Harry Swayne, servicable, and Tony Jones

Now I'm not taking anything away from TD. He had great vision, a quick burst, and could hit the hole quicker than anyone in Broncos history, but let's not forget about that great O-line when we talk about his records.

[Lonestar]

I wish he had that figured out when Terrell Davis was tearing up the post season and setting records. Heck, if our superbowl lines had the knowledge of Shanahan today in the mind of Shanahan back then, our runningback would probably hold the all time single season rushing record in the history of the NFL!!!!!!



:confused:


Wait a minute..............


:confused:


Terrell Davis does hold the single season all time rushing record.:shocked:



Wow............the universe is ours...............;)

Perhaps Denver's all time single season record..

But those were different times WHEN WE actually had a great OLINE unlike the past 8 years or so..

Many of TD's score were from outside th Red zone also.. And Few if any teams any any experience playing against the ZBS..

Remember GB in the super bowl They had NO CLUE on how to attack it..

Sorry but the games are won and lost ON the LOS.. One of the biggest reasons why we have been one and DONE in the past 8 years in the playoffs..

Mikey actually began to read his press clippings about being able to bring in any warm body and win with him. As well as using everyone Else's cast off and did not wants for OLINE players..

Sure we dominated the run game over the past 10 years, because it was almost all between the 20's. Inside the TEN not so good and you can probably count the number of solid runs inside the 5 on two hands and most of them were mike bell/Anderson..

go back and really look at our running success. Times have changed more teams run the ZBS thus more defenses know how to attack it.. We needed to get bigger and we finally did.. After mikey read the last super bowl clippings..

[Ziggy]

JR, you and I think alike most of the time. That line was incredible. On a side note, I heard Mark Schlereth on the FAN today. It was funny because Irv, Joe, and Jim started the conversation with the "He's from a small school and didn't play against top competition" argument. Schlereth was quick to remind them that guys like himself, Larry Allen, and Art Shell came from small schools and did ok in the NFL. I think they forgot to do thier homework before they started that argument. Schlereth said that the things you look for in offensive lineman are how they get into thier sets, and move thier feet. He said that Clady does both well. It was great to hear.

[TXBRONC]

JR, you and I think alike most of the time. That line was incredible. On a side note, I heard Mark Schlereth on the FAN today. It was funny because Irv, Joe, and Jim started the conversation with the "He's from a small school and didn't play against top competition" argument. Schlereth was quick to remind them that guys like himself, Larry Allen, and Art Shell came from small schools and did ok in the NFL. I think they forgot to do their homework before they started that argument. Schlereth said that the things you look for in offensive lineman are how they get into their sets, and move thier feet. He said that Clady does both well. It was great to hear.

Irv, Joe, and Jim are correct in saying that Clady didn't go up against elite competition but as Mark pointed out Clady has very good footwork so with little bit of time he should be able to hold his own against top notch pass rushers at the pro level.

[DenBronx]

give clady a break. he failed the wonderlic...so what...i had to take the real estate exam twice before i passed. i just care if he's gonna block for jay and henry on sunday.

[Lonestar]

JR, you and I think alike most of the time. That line was incredible. On a side note, I heard Mark Schlereth on the FAN today. It was funny because Irv, Joe, and Jim started the conversation with the "He's from a small school and didn't play against top competition" argument. Schlereth was quick to remind them that guys like himself, Larry Allen, and Art Shell came from small schools and did ok in the NFL. I think they forgot to do thier homework before they started that argument. Schlereth said that the things you look for in offensive lineman are how they get into thier sets, and move thier feet. He said that Clady does both well. It was great to hear.

I still fear his wunderlick scores I realize many do not. But I'd rather have a "top 5" OLT that may be a tad less talented and smart enough not to make stupid mistakes..

Remember he has played against almost NO talented DE's in the WAC were defense is not counted on at all. They are of the IND school that with enough firepower they can out score almost anyone..

Small schools are fine but he now has to play against real NFL DLines.. not some JUCCO league types.. He is not playing guard or ORT, but the most important spot on this OLINE.

We will soon see whether his fast feet will make up for his lack of smarts..

If he would have gotten a 14 I'd say OK but most OLINE guys are in the high teens 18-22's, an 8 just is not on the same scale folks..

[topscribe]

I still fear his wunderlick scores I realize many do not. But I'd rather have a "top 5" OLT that may be a tad less talented and smart enough not to make stupid mistakes..

Remember he has played against almost NO talented DE's in the WAC were defense is not counted on at all. They are of the IND school that with enough firepower they can out score almost anyone..

Small schools are fine but he now has to play against real NFL DLines.. not some JUCCO league types.. He is not playing guard or ORT, but the most important spot on this OLINE.

We will soon see whether his fast feet will make up for his lack of smarts..

If he would have gotten a 14 I'd say OK but most OLINE guys are in the high teens 18-22's, an 8 just is not on the same scale folks..

A one-time score is not a sure indicator of "smarts." A score from such a
test depends on other factors, such as the stress level and health at the
time of the test, biorythms, distractions, etc. Clady indicated that he was
particularly distressed at the time he took that test. So I am reluctant to
place my bets on it.

-----

[topscribe]

give clady a break. he failed the wonderlic...so what...i had to take the real estate exam twice before i passed. i just care if he's gonna block for jay and henry on sunday.

My daughter had to re-test for her G.E.D. nine (9) times before she got it.

Nine times!!

Today, she is a thesis short of her Ph.D. She graduated cum laude with her
B.S. and summa cum laude with her M.S.

Think what might not have been, had she taken to heart the scores from such
a test.

-----

[Ziggy]

Clady was stressed because he had just sustained an injury at the bench press portion of the combine prior to going in to take the test. Personally, I'm not big on excuses, but I don't put a lot into a one time wonderlic score.

Other NFL notables with low scores

Jeff George-10
Vince Young-6
Donnovan McNabb-14
Steve Mcnair-15
Dan Marino-16

[topscribe]

Clady was stressed because he had just sustained an injury at the bench press portion of the combine prior to going in to take the test. Personally, I'm not big on excuses, but I don't put a lot into a one time wonderlic score.

Other NFL notables with low scores

Jeff George-10
Vince Young-6
Donnovan McNabb-14
Steve Mcnair-15
Dan Marino-16

I don't buy this "don't accept excuses" bit. There are reasons, whatever the
semantics. Such reasons have to be considered, or the truth remains a
mystery. If Clady scored lowly because of stress, that is a psychological
reality. I have taken the I.Q. test three times in my life. The second time,
I scored 50 points below the first . . . I was under extreme stress. (I won't
go into detail.) The third time, I was back within four points of the first.
This is why I don't place much stock into one instance of such a test.

-----

[Ziggy]

I don't buy this "don't accept excuses" bit. There are reasons, whatever the
semantics. Such reasons have to be considered, or the truth remains a
mystery. If Clady scored lowly because of stress, that is a psychological
reality. I have taken the I.Q. test three times in my life. The second time,
I scored 50 points below the first . . . I was under extreme stress. (I won't
go into detail.) The third time, I was back within four points of the first.
This is why I don't place much stock into one instance of such a test.

-----

If he scored low because of stress, then we have a problem. I'm thinking that on 3rd and 15, on the road, he's going to get a bit stressed when a guy like Shaun Merriman lines up across from him looking to tear off Cutler's head. Hopefully, he can overcome the stress at that point better than he did at the combine. I'm a Clady fan. I like the kid and think he will do well. I just don't think that you can judge someone's IQ off of 1 test, regardless of the reason.

[Ziggy]

Clady was stressed because he had just sustained an injury at the bench press portion of the combine prior to going in to take the test. Personally, I'm not big on excuses, but I don't put a lot into a one time wonderlic score.
Other NFL notables with low scores

Jeff George-10
Vince Young-6
Donnovan McNabb-14
Steve Mcnair-15
Dan Marino-16


I don't buy this "don't accept excuses" bit. There are reasons, whatever the
semantics. Such reasons have to be considered, or the truth remains a
mystery. If Clady scored lowly because of stress, that is a psychological
reality. I have taken the I.Q. test three times in my life. The second time,
I scored 50 points below the first . . . I was under extreme stress. (I won't
go into detail.) The third time, I was back within four points of the first.
.This is why I don't place much stock into one instance of such a test

-----


I think we're arguing in circles here to get at the same point Topscribe.:elefant:

[topscribe]

I think we're arguing in circles here to get at the same point Topscribe.:elefant:

I wasn't arguing with you. I was agreeing with you, trying to add to what you said.

-----

[Ziggy]

Oh. I think it's past my bedtime.

[Fan in Exile]

Perhaps Denver's all time single season record..

But those were different times WHEN WE actually had a great OLINE unlike the past 8 years or so..

Many of TD's score were from outside th Red zone also.. And Few if any teams any any experience playing against the ZBS..

Remember GB in the super bowl They had NO CLUE on how to attack it..

Sorry but the games are won and lost ON the LOS.. One of the biggest reasons why we have been one and DONE in the past 8 years in the playoffs..

Mikey actually began to read his press clippings about being able to bring in any warm body and win with him. As well as using everyone Else's cast off and did not wants for OLINE players..

Sure we dominated the run game over the past 10 years, because it was almost all between the 20's. Inside the TEN not so good and you can probably count the number of solid runs inside the 5 on two hands and most of them were mike bell/Anderson..

go back and really look at our running success. Times have changed more teams run the ZBS thus more defenses know how to attack it.. We needed to get bigger and we finally did.. After mikey read the last super bowl clippings..

The Last Super Bowl wouldn't encourage anyone to get bigger that's just absurd. The Giants did most of their damage with Defensive Ends. Tuck is only 274 for crying out loud. Their tackles only average 310. It's not about getting bigger it's about getting better. Neither Shanahan nor anybody else is going to look at Clady and Harris and decide who should start based on who's bigger that's just crazy talk.

Am I happy that he's picking linemen so that we can dominate the LOS, absolutely, but we shouldn't get so obsessed with size. When Schlereth said that he has the skills that made me happy. We should be looking for skilled, strong linemen with a nasty streak.

This is something that good GMs know: "We found higher weight had no bearing on winning — none," said Polian, who was the general manager in Buffalo when the Bills played in four Super Bowls. "There was a lot of noise about 'Big is the answer.' We tested it. It's not valid."

And GBs problem in the Super Bowl wasn't that they didn't know how to attack the line. You think after two weeks of prep and watching what everybody else did they didn't know what to do? Their problem was all the big fat guys were sucking wind in the fourth quarter and they couldn't stop anybody. Which is one of the best arguments ever against bringing in guys who are too big because they just can't keep up.

[TXBRONC]

I still fear his wunderlick scores I realize many do not. But I'd rather have a "top 5" OLT that may be a tad less talented and smart enough not to make stupid mistakes..

Remember he has played against almost NO talented DE's in the WAC were defense is not counted on at all. They are of the IND school that with enough firepower they can out score almost anyone..

Small schools are fine but he now has to play against real NFL DLines.. not some JUCCO league types.. He is not playing guard or ORT, but the most important spot on this OLINE.

We will soon see whether his fast feet will make up for his lack of smarts..

If he would have gotten a 14 I'd say OK but most OLINE guys are in the high teens 18-22's, an 8 just is not on the same scale folks..

JR where did you get the idea he scored an 8 on the wonderlic? The last I read he scored a 13.

[MOtorboat]

JR where did you get the idea he scored an 8 on the wonderlic? The last I read he scored a 13.

Well...lol...either way, it's not that good.

He did address it in the conference call presser from his home on Saturday. I've got the quotes at home, I could post. He did have an excuse, but he said he took the wonderlic in the next session right after he tore his pectoral muscle in the bench press. He said he would do much better if given a second shot. Is it an excuse? Yes, but I'm not that worried about him.

[TXBRONC]

Well...lol...either way, it's not that good.

He did address it in the conference call presser from his home on Saturday. I've got the quotes at home, I could post. He did have an excuse, but he said he took the wonderlic in the next session right after he tore his pectoral muscle in the bench press. He said he would do much better if given a second shot. Is it an excuse? Yes, but I'm not that worried about him.


Maybe its still not good however its wrong to exaggerate it.

My dad who happens to have a doctorate in Education has told me on numerous occasions tests like the wonderlic overemphasized don't necessarily tell give you an accurate view of person's intelligence.

Also his score is in the same range of a Hall of Famer and a guy who will be in the Hall of Fame.

[G_Money]

The Wonderlic is not a test designed to see how smart you are. It determines how well you problem-solve under stress.

However, that's not the same as making good decisions under stress.

I don't need Clady to be able to give me the correct shape to properly complement the other shape in the example while he's being bull-rushed.

I need him to be fast enough to stop the guy, perceptive enough to determine how best to block his man and not create a gap for others to be freed to come in, strong enough to hold the point of attack and skilled enough to not draw penalties in the process.

And I need it all in a quarter of a second.

Clady doesn't always seem to know what he's doing out there...but he seems eager enough to learn. If he'd gone to Michigan we wouldn't be having this problem.

But he didn't, so we are. David Garrard pulled a 14, and he sure seems to make good decisions on a football field.

Standardized testing is something you can train for, just like any other test. Apparently Clady didn't train for it. He was too busy working on the other concerns people had about him that actually applied to the football field.

He sounds about as sharp as a bag of wet mice in his interviews, but all of his coaches call him a bright guy, an eager student and a willing film-study. Atwater talked like an IQ 40 backwoods hick, but he understood football. In the end, that's what I care about. Are you lazy, will you put in the work, are you soft, do you love football or just a paycheck...

The Wonderlic doesn't answer these questions.

Unfortunately, I won't see the answers to those questions until he takes the field, either. It's gonna be a trial by fire for the kid this year. I really hope he's ready.

~G

[TXBRONC]

The Wonderlic is not a test designed to see how smart you are. It determines how well you problem-solve under stress.

However, that's not the same as making good decisions under stress.

I don't need Clady to be able to give me the correct shape to properly complement the other shape in the example while he's being bull-rushed.

I need him to be fast enough to stop the guy, perceptive enough to determine how best to block his man and not create a gap for others to be freed to come in, strong enough to hold the point of attack and skilled enough to not draw penalties in the process.

And I need it all in a quarter of a second.

Clady doesn't always seem to know what he's doing out there...but he seems eager enough to learn. If he'd gone to Michigan we wouldn't be having this problem.

But he didn't, so we are. David Garrard pulled a 14, and he sure seems to make good decisions on a football field.

Standardized testing is something you can train for, just like any other test. Apparently Clady didn't train for it. He was too busy working on the other concerns people had about him that actually applied to the football field.

He sounds about as sharp as a bag of wet mice in his interviews, but all of his coaches call him a bright guy, an eager student and a willing film-study. Atwater talked like an IQ 40 backwoods hick, but he understood football. In the end, that's what I care about. Are you lazy, will you put in the work, are you soft, do you love football or just a paycheck...

The Wonderlic doesn't answer these questions.

Unfortunately, I won't see the answers to those questions until he takes the field, either. It's gonna be a trial by fire for the kid this year. I really hope he's ready.

~G

Great post G. :salute:

[Nomad]

Excellent post, G!

[Lonestar]

A one-time score is not a sure indicator of "smarts." A score from such a
test depends on other factors, such as the stress level and health at the
time of the test, biorythms, distractions, etc. Clady indicated that he was
particularly distressed at the time he took that test. So I am reluctant to
place my bets on it.

-----

Hey I'm not a great test taker (I was consistently was in the mid twenties), but an "8" I think that speaks volumes.. most OLINE guys are if memory serves correctly are 18-22 or higher.

I hope I'm wrong but I suspect his agent did a couple three Mock test on this.. to get an 8 is inexcusable I think they give you five for filling the form out correctly..

While I hope I'm wrong here and he does indeed turn into a franchise LT this one thing leads to me to believe IF he can master the playbook it will not be this year..l

[TXBRONC]

Hey I'm not a great test taker (I was consistently was in the mid twenties), but an "8" I think that speaks volumes.. most OLINE guys are if memory serves correctly are 18-22 or higher.

I hope I'm wrong but I suspect his agent did a couple three Mock test on this.. to get an 8 is inexcusable I think they give you five for filling the form out correctly..

While I hope I'm wrong here and he does indeed turn into a franchise LT this one thing leads to me to believe IF he can master the playbook it will not be this year..l


He didn't get an 8 on the test. Maybe you should do a little research.

[Lonestar]

The Last Super Bowl wouldn't encourage anyone to get bigger that's just absurd. The Giants did most of their damage with Defensive Ends. Tuck is only 274 for crying out loud. Their tackles only average 310. It's not about getting bigger it's about getting better. Neither Shanahan nor anybody else is going to look at Clady and Harris and decide who should start based on who's bigger that's just crazy talk.

Am I happy that he's picking linemen so that we can dominate the LOS, absolutely, but we shouldn't get so obsessed with size. When Schlereth said that he has the skills that made me happy. We should be looking for skilled, strong linemen with a nasty streak.

This is something that good GMs know: "We found higher weight had no bearing on winning — none," said Polian, who was the general manager in Buffalo when the Bills played in four Super Bowls. "There was a lot of noise about 'Big is the answer.' We tested it. It's not valid."

And GBs problem in the Super Bowl wasn't that they didn't know how to attack the line. You think after two weeks of prep and watching what everybody else did they didn't know what to do? Their problem was all the big fat guys were sucking wind in the fourth quarter and they couldn't stop anybody. Which is one of the best arguments ever against bringing in guys who are too big because they just can't keep up.


just exactly where did I remotely compare the two and make this statement?

There is a HUGE difference in BIG and athletic an big and FAT, we were running Gilbert Browns fat gut/ass of sideline to sideline..

Please do not tell me they thought they could not win the SB by playing their game.. They had no clue on how to stop the ZBS.. Or they would have plain done it.. They had the bulk and could have done so just by staying home and not allowing us to get their big bodies moving.. Once they take a fake and start moving our ZBS allows them to continue on while TD makes a cut back into the hole they just vacated..

Todays Great defenses are now wise to it and stay at home and force our RBs to go wide when the cut back is not there.. Our OLINE being as Small as it was the past few years could not power block at the LOS..

Now having almost all of the OLINE over 300 will make a huge difference.. IF and when Licktensteiger starts he is a 15-35 (I've seen him listed at 298 to 320) pounds upgrade over Nalen.

Last year I believe we were something like 20+ lighter as an average than those top 5 OLINES in running, passing and total yards. It would have been higher had we not had Holland there at 322..

[Lonestar]

He didn't get an 8 on the test. Maybe you should do a little research.


Look that is what I read, if it is not correct then I stand corrected.. Even a 13 if that is correct and he studied for it is warning flag.. IMO

[gobroncsnv]

If we're going to make mistakes, let's make them building up trenches, and not on sexy picks that belong more on a Madden video game than they do on the field.


You are among those who truly "get it". The guys upfront can make stars out of the guys in the back. Trying to do this in reverse generally makes stars out of the opponent.

[Fan in Exile]

just exactly where did I remotely compare the two and make this statement?

I'm just showing you how ridiculous it is to say we need to get bigger. When you said get bigger that isn't just some kind of general statement, but you are talking about specific players at specific positions.

I don't think we are that far off in what we want for the team. We both want to dominate the LOS, but as Polian pointed out winning is not connected to being bigger.


There is a HUGE difference in BIG and athletic an big and FAT, we were running Gilbert Browns fat gut/ass of sideline to sideline..

This is precisely my point you have all these people saying get bigger when what we really should want is get stronger and more athletic.


Please do not tell me they thought they could not win the SB by playing their game.. They had no clue on how to stop the ZBS.. Or they would have plain done it.. They had the bulk and could have done so just by staying home and not allowing us to get their big bodies moving.. Once they take a fake and start moving our ZBS allows them to continue on while TD makes a cut back into the hole they just vacated..

Please don't tell me you really think that by that time they had no idea how to attack a ZBS. We'd been using it for years there was plenty of tape on it, and they had two weeks to prepare. Real football isn't like those sports movies where the coaches on the sidelines come up with a brand new system every week. They had the tape they saw how other teams attacked the ZBS they just couldn't do it. A big part of that is because they were big and fat, which makes me wonder why people want us to keep getting bigger.

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that bulk doesn't make that big of a deal when you are getting double teamed which is one of the things that a ZBS is good at. Here's a link http://espn.go.com/ncf/columns/davie/1440703.html so that you will know what you are talking about from now on.


Todays Great defenses are now wise to it and stay at home and force our RBs to go wide when the cut back is not there.. Our OLINE being as Small as it was the past few years could not power block at the LOS..

Again take a look at the article you can't stay at home when you're getting double teamed. The key is to have people who have played together for a while which is why the injuries hurt us so badly last year. Do you understand the importance of continuity on the o-line? That was the problem not size. Also if the D-line really does just stay at home then they are taking themselves out of other plays that we can run to take advantage of that. The key is being healthy and able to open up the playbook.


Now having almost all of the OLINE over 300 will make a huge difference.. IF and when Licktensteiger starts he is a 15-35 (I've seen him listed at 298 to 320) pounds upgrade over Nalen.

Last year I believe we were something like 20+ lighter as an average than those top 5 OLINES in running, passing and total yards. It would have been higher had we not had Holland there at 322..

I've got a ton of problems with this statement. 1) Polian went by ten years of data and said winning has no relation to size. I'm probably going to go with that instead of JR's one year of things he thinks he remembers. 2) Averages can really throw things off. If you have one light team and one heavy team all you've proven is that bulk has nothing to do with winning but an average confuses that. 3) Did you take all the o-linemen or just starters? Maybe teams have bigger players that they draft but those guys don't get to start because they are too big. 4) If you look at the lines of the two winningest teams over the past five years the Colts and the Pats you'll see that they don't have big o-lines. So I doubt your data has any actual relevance. 5) I don't know of anyone who thinks Nalen is one of the problems that we have on the O-line. Do you really think Shanny was saying, "Boy if I can just get Nalen out of there we'll be set."

[Lonestar]

I've got a ton of problems with this statement. 1) Polian went by ten years of data and said winning has no relation to size. I'm probably going to go with that instead of JR's one year of things he thinks he remembers. 2) Averages can really throw things off. If you have one light team and one heavy team all you've proven is that bulk has nothing to do with winning but an average confuses that. 3) Did you take all the o-linemen or just starters? Maybe teams have bigger players that they draft but those guys don't get to start because they are too big. 4) If you look at the lines of the two winningest teams over the past five years the Colts and the Pats you'll see that they don't have big o-lines. So I doubt your data has any actual relevance. 5) I don't know of anyone who thinks Nalen is one of the problems that we have on the O-line. Do you really think Shanny was saying, "Boy if I can just get Nalen out of there we'll be set."

I have been an advocate for getting heavier for years. You can go back to mania and look at the many posts I did there.

I just found something I did about red zone failures 11 games into last year.

BUF
8 attempts from the red zone one TD. 12.5%

OAK
19 attempts from the red zone Two TD‘s, Two FG’s . 10.5% TD 10.5% FG left 8 points on the field..

JAX
7 attempts from the red zone ONE TD, . 14.3% TD 10.5% left 3-7 points on the field. With a 4-1 on their 3 yard line.

COLTS
14 attempts from the red zone Two TD‘s, One FG . 14.3% TD 7.1% FG left 4 points on the field..

SAN
9 attempts from the red zone One TD, ZERO FG’s . 11.1% TD left 3-7 points on the field..

PIT
9 attempts from the red zone Three TD‘s 33.3% TD 10.5% FG left 0 points on the field..

GB
11 attempts from the red zone One TD, One FG. 9.1% TD 9.1 FG left 7-10 points on the field..

DET
4 attempts from the red zone One TD, Zero FG’s . 25.0% TD 0% FG left 7 points on the field..

KC
2 attempts from the red zone Two TD‘s, 0 FG’s . 100% TD 0 % FG left 0 points on the field..

TEN
7 attempts from the red zone ZERO TD‘s, Two FG’s . 0% TD 28.6% FG left 8 points on the field..

CHI
7 attempts from the red zone ZERO TD‘s, Two FG’s . 0% TD 28.6% FG left 8 points on the field..



We had 42 run attempts and 33 pass attempts 13 FG’s and 4 other plays in the red zone.
9 Passing TD’s, 3 running.
One by Sapp one on a QB keeper, on by Young from 20 yards out.

Of the running TD’s ONLY one inside the 5 by a Rb.

Pathetic if you ask me..

I have never said fatter but BIGGER and stronger..

Have never said we need to get up to 330 pound or more to compete but we have and it looks like mikey has seen the wisdom in getting bigger with the two players he drafted this year to be future starters..

I understand what polian said. I also remember when I looked at it our OLINE was over 20+ pounds average under those of the TOP FIVE LEADERS in passing, running and total yards.. If you took Holland out of the loop take another 5 pounds off the average..

Polian might know what he is talking about for his team, but those 8-9 teams in the top 5 of each of those categories seem to understand it..

I was advocating at the time to get up 10-15 pounds per guy which would have brought us up to the 310 range..

[Fan in Exile]

I have been an advocate for getting heavier for years. You can go back to mania and look at the many posts I did there.

Pathetic if you ask me..

I have never said fatter but BIGGER and stronger..

Have never said we need to get up to 330 pound or more to compete but we have and it looks like mikey has seen the wisdom in getting bigger with the two players he drafted this year to be future starters..

I understand what polian said. I also remember when I looked at it our OLINE was over 20+ pounds average under those of the TOP FIVE LEADERS in passing, running and total yards.. If you took Holland out of the loop take another 5 pounds off the average..

Polian might know what he is talking about for his team, but those 8-9 teams in the top 5 of each of those categories seem to understand it..

I was advocating at the time to get up 10-15 pounds per guy which would have brought us up to the 310 range..

I still don't buy any of your "information" for the reasons that I've already stated.

Thanks for the rather pointless info on redzone production we all knew it was bad, but it doesn't show that we have to get bigger. There were a lot of reasons why we sucked in the red zone. e.g. injuries, play calling, execution

I never said that you wanted fatter or that you said they had to be 330 pounds. But weight is unconnected to winning. So even just saying they should be bigger is pointless, whether you are arguing for 330 or 310.

Polian knows what wins in this league, if all you want is top five rushing but don't care about wins we will never agree.

The size of the players that Shanny picked doesn't prove your point at all. All of the players in this years draft are bigger than the ones that we had. If you'll actually compare he took some of the smallest ones out there. He wants the same thing that I do. Players who will come in and run the system and dominate.

You and others like you can keep asking for heavier guys or bigger guys but we need strong, athletic guys who play with a mean streak.

[Tned]

I have never said fatter but BIGGER and stronger..

Have never said we need to get up to 330 pound or more to compete but we have and it looks like mikey has seen the wisdom in getting bigger with the two players he drafted this year to be future starters..

I understand what polian said. I also remember when I looked at it our OLINE was over 20+ pounds average under those of the TOP FIVE LEADERS in passing, running and total yards.. If you took Holland out of the loop take another 5 pounds off the average..

Polian might know what he is talking about for his team, but those 8-9 teams in the top 5 of each of those categories seem to understand it..

I was advocating at the time to get up 10-15 pounds per guy which would have brought us up to the 310 range..

I read someplace a week or so before the draft, or maybe saw them talking about it on NFL network, but basically it was that several teams in the league have taken the Broncos ZBS, but done it with guys 10-20lbs bigger than the Broncos line with much greater success. While the Broncos have been struggling, these other teams have been having good success with their running game.

I count remember where I read it, might have been something someone quoted here, but I think they were talking about Atlanta, Houston, but also a couple others.

Especially now that we have a QB that can both move, but also really do well from the pocket, we needed bigger guys that can both handle drop back passing situations, but even in the running game, can move the bigger defensive linemen, whether on the goal line, or when we need to convert that 4th and 1 to keep a drive alive or kill the clock.

[Fan in Exile]

I read someplace a week or so before the draft, or maybe saw them talking about it on NFL network, but basically it was that several teams in the league have taken the Broncos ZBS, but done it with guys 10-20lbs bigger than the Broncos line with much greater success. While the Broncos have been struggling, these other teams have been having good success with their running game.

I count remember where I read it, might have been something someone quoted here, but I think they were talking about Atlanta, Houston, but also a couple others.

Especially now that we have a QB that can both move, but also really do well from the pocket, we needed bigger guys that can both handle drop back passing situations, but even in the running game, can move the bigger defensive linemen, whether on the goal line, or when we need to convert that 4th and 1 to keep a drive alive or kill the clock.

You may want to double check that source I just checked out the size of the Texans and Falcons o-lines. The Texans aren't bigger than ours and the falcons didn't look much bigger certainly not 10-20 pounds.

At the same time we've only struggled the past two years and that hasn't been because of size. It started with Lepsis getting hurt.

You've got to be careful with this one it's one of those myths that seems to be true because it makes sense, but it's not. Being bigger hasn't led to more winning.

[Tned]

You may want to double check that source I just checked out the size of the Texans and Falcons o-lines. The Texans aren't bigger than ours and the falcons didn't look much bigger certainly not 10-20 pounds.

At the same time we've only struggled the past two years and that hasn't been because of size. It started with Lepsis getting hurt.

You've got to be careful with this one it's one of those myths that seems to be true because it makes sense, but it's not. Being bigger hasn't led to more winning.

As I said I was going by memory, and assume they were talking about Atl/Hou, because those are the two most well known copy-cats. I'll have to see if I can find where I read that and see what they were talking about, but it could very well have been more speculation than fact on the part of the original author/speaker (can't remember if I read it, or heard it on NFL Network/radio).

[Fan in Exile]

As I said I was going by memory, and assume they were talking about Atl/Hou, because those are the two most well known copy-cats. I'll have to see if I can find where I read that and see what they were talking about, but it could very well have been more speculation than fact on the part of the original author/speaker (can't remember if I read it, or heard it on NFL Network/radio).

Really this is probably just something that I should relax about but it's just driving me crazy. It's like any of those popular myths that just aren't true. I'll try to be a little less obsessive.

I think we all agree that we need to be better on the LOS, and Shanny has addressed that in these last two drafts. So what does anything else matter.

[Lonestar]

Really this is probably just something that I should relax about but it's just driving me crazy. It's like any of those popular myths that just aren't true. I'll try to be a little less obsessive.

I think we all agree that we need to be better on the LOS, and Shanny has addressed that in these last two drafts. So what does anything else matter.

well since it was so important to you I went back to find my post..


Just an idea of what the leaders have.



LEADERS IN YARDS
PASS RUN TOTAL
#1 NE MIN NE
#2 GB JAX DAL
#3 NOL PIT GB
#4 DAL TEN IND
#5 CIN OAK NOL

weight from roster as stated on NFL.COM

GB IND MIN TEX DAL CIN JAX PIT TEN OAK AVG DEN diff
RT 315 320 328 307 315 340 325 315 318 315 320 305 -15
RG 300 295 335 307 354 345 328 315 320 298 320 322 +2
CT 295 295 309 303 316 300 295 301 298 315 303 295 -8
LG 305 290 313 322 294 339 326 307 295 325 313 302 -11
LT 320 301 335 302 340 307 325 321 315 300 317 290 -27



My premise was to see what the offensive YARDS leaders had on their OLINE If we want to play with the big DOGS we have to match up to them.. IMO with exception of Holland we are out weighed at all positions and way out classed at either OT.

I included Texans in there just because they run a ZBS better than we do they average 308.2. we are 302.8 with Holland who is by no means a fixture there.

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6803&highlight=bigger&page=2

Replying to dogfish in post number 17 this was posted on 12-18-2007, 01:01 PM

Now perhaps you do not care about the TOP FIVE league leaders in Rushing, Passing and Total yards. I suspect that mikey might be.. I know that I am and am pretty convinced that most Bronco fans are also..

[Fan in Exile]

well since it was so important to you I went back to find my post..



http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6803&highlight=bigger&page=2

Replying to dogfish in post number 17 this was posted on 12-18-2007, 01:01 PM

Now perhaps you do not care about the TOP FIVE league leaders in Rushing, Passing and Total yards. I suspect that mikey might be.. I know that I am and am pretty convinced that most Bronco fans are also..

JR I don't really care about who racks up the most yardage because there are a ton of other things that go into it besides quality. GB had a ton of passing yards because they had no running game. Do you really think we should try to copy anything Cincy has done? Min has great rushing numbers because they have no passing game. The pats put up a lot of yards but when it came to dealing with the Giants pass rush they couldn't do it, neither could Dallas. SO they put up yards but still weren't complete teams. I think just straight yards is a poor standard to go by.

The information also proves me right. Your conclusions are thrown off because you're using averages. This was my second point in why I didn't worry about your data and it was spot on. Averages are too easily thrown off by outlier data. Take the left tackle data for example Min and Dallas both have huge LT. That makes the average for that data set skewed toward the heavy end. That's why the biggest differential on our lines is there. But Lepsis problem wasn't that he was too small it's that he wasn't doing well after his injury. Clearly this isn't an argument to get bigger but to get someone who is healthy.

The other thing it shows is how unrelated to winning size is. Dallas is big and they win, that's good. Min is big and they lost that's bad. Ind is small and they won that's good Den is small and they lost that's bad. I want to get better if we bring in good big guys I'm okay with that if we bring in good small guys I'm okay with that as well.

If we bring in guys who bust out big or small that's going to depress me.

[Lonestar]

JR I don't really care about who racks up the most yardage because there are a ton of other things that go into it besides quality. GB had a ton of passing yards because they had no running game. Do you really think we should try to copy anything Cincy has done? Min has great rushing numbers because they have no passing game. The pats put up a lot of yards but when it came to dealing with the Giants pass rush they couldn't do it, neither could Dallas. SO they put up yards but still weren't complete teams. I think just straight yards is a poor standard to go by.

The information also proves me right. Your conclusions are thrown off because you're using averages. This was my second point in why I didn't worry about your data and it was spot on. Averages are too easily thrown off by outlier data. Take the left tackle data for example Min and Dallas both have huge LT. That makes the average for that data set skewed toward the heavy end. That's why the biggest differential on our lines is there. But Lepsis problem wasn't that he was too small it's that he wasn't doing well after his injury. Clearly this isn't an argument to get bigger but to get someone who is healthy.

The other thing it shows is how unrelated to winning size is. Dallas is big and they win, that's good. Min is big and they lost that's bad. Ind is small and they won that's good Den is small and they lost that's bad. I want to get better if we bring in good big guys I'm okay with that if we bring in good small guys I'm okay with that as well.

If we bring in guys who bust out big or small that's going to depress me.

So tell me how to make this right with out using averages..

We use averages in almost every stat in the NFL.. how it is not relevant here..

I can't see why you wish to admit that our OLINE was not effective.

I did not pick teams that had big OLINES I picked those teams that LEAD the league in those most important of stats Passing (which we are trying to become), rushing (something we are really good at outside the red zone), total yards something we should all aspire to do.....

How is this bad?

Certainly MIN was a losing team last year but they will not be next year barring a tragedy.

CIN is a premier passing team..

GB is a pure passing team, but taking any of these teams is wrong because of this distorts the averages..

Your whole premise is bigger is not better..

Mine is we need to get bigger about 10-15 across the line to be able to get better where it counts inside the red zone..

Do you not see this?

I'm not asking mikey to get Dallas' OLINE unless he can find one that can indeed play ZBS.. There is not rule out there that says a big man can't have fast feet, be smart, have a nasty streak and be able to ZONE block.. It is a myth that has been perpetuated by mikey or (someone if not mikey) cause he simply did not wish to spend his day one picks on talent for the LOS..

We finally bite the bullet and have upgraded the OLT spot. Now it is time to embrace bigger can be better..

[TXBRONC]

JR I don't really care about who racks up the most yardage because there are a ton of other things that go into it besides quality. GB had a ton of passing yards because they had no running game. Do you really think we should try to copy anything Cincy has done? Min has great rushing numbers because they have no passing game. The pats put up a lot of yards but when it came to dealing with the Giants pass rush they couldn't do it, neither could Dallas. SO they put up yards but still weren't complete teams. I think just straight yards is a poor standard to go by.

The information also proves me right. Your conclusions are thrown off because you're using averages. This was my second point in why I didn't worry about your data and it was spot on. Averages are too easily thrown off by outlier data. Take the left tackle data for example Min and Dallas both have huge LT. That makes the average for that data set skewed toward the heavy end. That's why the biggest differential on our lines is there. But Lepsis problem wasn't that he was too small it's that he wasn't doing well after his injury. Clearly this isn't an argument to get bigger but to get someone who is healthy.

The other thing it shows is how unrelated to winning size is. Dallas is big and they win, that's good. Min is big and they lost that's bad. Ind is small and they won that's good Den is small and they lost that's bad. I want to get better if we bring in good big guys I'm okay with that if we bring in good small guys I'm okay with that as well.

If we bring in guys who bust out big or small that's going to depress me.


Exactly, if we bring in quality players and win games that's all that really matters.

[Fan in Exile]

So tell me how to make this right with out using averages..

We use averages in almost every stat in the NFL.. how it is not relevant here..

There is no way to make it right because the information doesn't back up your theory. Look at the variation that you have in linemen. Some are small some are big. The key is to get ones who are good. I wouldn't argue that we should throw out Leonard Davis because he's 354 any more than we should throw out Nalen because he's 286. Get the guys who are good and let them play at the weight that is best suited for them.

If they were all big that would mean that we would have to get bigger, but since some are big and some are small that means we just have to get the right guys.

The problem is that Guys like Davis make it look like everyone is bigger than the linemen that we had, which just isn't true.


I can't see why you wish to admit that our OLINE was not effective.

I don't want to admit that our o-line was ineffective but I said that we were bad last year. I still have that image of Kuper knocking the ball out of Jay's hand and causing a redzone fumble. I just don't agree with you on how to fix the problem. The solution isn't to get bigger it's to bring in the right guys and practice until they execute the play correctly. It's to bring in guys with a mean streak who don't just block somebody but flatten them and then fall on them just because.

I think anybody who looks at the problems we've had the past two years would conclude that the struggles we've had come from injuries, and a lack of continuity on the o-line.


I did not pick teams that had big OLINES I picked those teams that LEAD the league in those most important of stats Passing (which we are trying to become),rushing (something we are really good at outside the red zone), total yards something we should all aspire to do.....

How is this bad?

Certainly MIN was a losing team last year but they will not be next year barring a tragedy.

CIN is a premier passing team..

GB is a pure passing team, but taking any of these teams is wrong because of this distorts the averages..

The problem with this is because the game isn't about getting the most yards. Yards gained has only a very loose connection to winning which is what I want to do. Why the NFL focuses on yards instead of scoring is beyond me. Notice that Oakland is up there. Of the teams on the list that I think we should be like two are big and two are small which shows that size isn't that big of a deal.


Your whole premise is bigger is not better..

I got that from Schlereth "Truth is, bigger isn't better. Better is better," Schlereth said.


Mine is we need to get bigger about 10-15 across the line to be able to get better where it counts inside the red zone..

Do you not see this?

I see it, but I think it's the wrong thing to focus on to fix the problem.


I'm not asking mikey to get Dallas' OLINE unless he can find one that can indeed play ZBS.. There is not rule out there that says a big man can't have fast feet, be smart, have a nasty streak and be able to ZONE block.. It is a myth that has been perpetuated by mikey or (someone if not mikey) cause he simply did not wish to spend his day one picks on talent for the LOS..

We finally bite the bullet and have upgraded the OLT spot. Now it is time to embrace bigger can be better..

Sure Bigger and Better can go hand in hand, but I don't want to pass on a great player because he's not 10-15 pounds bigger than the guys we have. If he is 10-15 pounds bigger then fine I wouldn't want to pass on a guy just because he's 322 either, but let's bring in quality guys.

[Lonestar]

There is no way to make it right because the information doesn't back up your theory. Look at the variation that you have in linemen. Some are small some are big. The key is to get ones who are good. I wouldn't argue that we should throw out Leonard Davis because he's 354 any more than we should throw out Nalen because he's 286. Get the guys who are good and let them play at the weight that is best suited for them.

If they were all big that would mean that we would have to get bigger, but since some are big and some are small that means we just have to get the right guys.

The problem is that Guys like Davis make it look like everyone is bigger than the linemen that we had, which just isn't true.

I don't want to admit that our o-line was ineffective but I said that we were bad last year. I still have that image of Kuper knocking the ball out of Jay's hand and causing a redzone fumble. I just don't agree with you on how to fix the problem. The solution isn't to get bigger it's to bring in the right guys and practice until they execute the play correctly. It's to bring in guys with a mean streak who don't just block somebody but flatten them and then fall on them just because.

I think anybody who looks at the problems we've had the past two years would conclude that the struggles we've had come from injuries, and a lack of continuity on the o-line.



The problem with this is because the game isn't about getting the most yards. Yards gained has only a very loose connection to winning which is what I want to do. Why the NFL focuses on yards instead of scoring is beyond me. Notice that Oakland is up there. Of the teams on the list that I think we should be like two are big and two are small which shows that size isn't that big of a deal.

I got that from Schlereth "Truth is, bigger isn't better. Better is better," Schlereth said.

I see it, but I think it's the wrong thing to focus on to fix the problem.

Sure Bigger and Better can go hand in hand, but I don't want to pass on a great player because he's not 10-15 pounds bigger than the guys we have. If he is 10-15 pounds bigger then fine I wouldn't want to pass on a guy just because he's 322 either, but let's bring in quality guys.

Let me try this again. We have been drafting smaller guys in the late rounds because for eh most part mikey has been wasting first day choices on WR, CB, DL types and stocking up the LB core which he has been pretty successful.

He has gone on the premise that the latter round guys would fill the bill.
That is no longer happening we have aha d steady decline on this team since the super bowl days when we had HOF Zimmerman and company. The only hold over we have from those glory years is Nalen who is not as good as he used to be.. Lepsis was good smaller OLT that could handle the fast DE's and did superb job at pass protection and was the best we have had in the running game, since the SB years..

But things have changed no longer are we the only team running the ZBS.. At least 4 or maybe 5 teams are doing so. So we are now competing for those smaller faster OLINE types mikey has taken a zillion of in the past because NO ONE else wanted them.. We no longer have Alex Gibbs the master to teach the newbies the skill set required.. Please do not tell me the dennison an EX LB is now the new master.

Now that more teams are running the ZBS more and more, DCs are looking to stop it. In the past the only teams that saw it two times a year were OAK, SAN and KC. Most of our out of division opponents saw it once a year and half hearted attempts to control it were made.. This is no longer th case and and since PIT showed everyone how to defeat it in the playoff game our offense has suffered..

How did they do it? They put pressure on the QB and clogged the running game in other words they stayed at home and blitzed. Now mikey is countering with larger, faster (hopefully smarter) top talent instead of bargain basement OLINE types..

I have not ever said I am looking for 350 pound line men, a simple up grade with TALENTED OLINE guys in the 305-320 range which will give us the ability to have a better RED zone presence, than our smallish old OLINE was made up of.

We have lost more games in the red zone the past 10 years than I care to think about and while being in the top ten in the running game means alot s to some if it all comes between the 20's we are not going toe win many games that way..

Bigger and smarter, NOT HUGE is better at protecting the QB and moving goal line defenses and if your unable to admit it or see it we will have to agree to disagree.

[topscribe]

Let me try this again. We have been drafting smaller guys in the late rounds because for eh most part mikey has been wasting first day choices on WR, CB, DL types and stocking up the LB core which he has been pretty successful.

He has gone on the premise that the latter round guys would fill the bill.
That is no longer happening we have aha d steady decline on this team since the super bowl days when we had HOF Zimmerman and company. The only hold over we have from those glory years is Nalen who is not as good as he used to be.. Lepsis was good smaller OLT that could handle the fast DE's and did superb job at pass protection and was the best we have had in the running game, since the SB years..

But things have changed no longer are we the only team running the ZBS.. At least 4 or maybe 5 teams are doing so. So we are now competing for those smaller faster OLINE types mikey has taken a zillion of in the past because NO ONE else wanted them.. We no longer have Alex Gibbs the master to teach the newbies the skill set required.. Please do not tell me the dennison an EX LB is now the new master.

Now that more teams are running the ZBS more and more, DCs are looking to stop it. In the past the only teams that saw it two times a year were OAK, SAN and KC. Most of our out of division opponents saw it once a year and half hearted attempts to control it were made.. This is no longer th case and and since PIT showed everyone how to defeat it in the playoff game our offense has suffered..

How did they do it? They put pressure on the QB and clogged the running game in other words they stayed at home and blitzed. Now mikey is countering with larger, faster (hopefully smarter) top talent instead of bargain basement OLINE types..

I have not ever said I am looking for 350 pound line men, a simple up grade with TALENTED OLINE guys in the 305-320 range which will give us the ability to have a better RED zone presence, than our smallish old OLINE was made up of.

We have lost more games in the red zone the past 10 years than I care to think about and while being in the top ten in the running game means alot s to some if it all comes between the 20's we are not going toe win many games that way..

Bigger and smarter, NOT HUGE is better at protecting the QB and moving goal line defenses and if your unable to admit it or see it we will have to agree to disagree.

Well, JR, as you implied, hopefully the Broncos found a couple of those
heavier but still good and fast offensive linemen in Clady (317) and
Lichtensteiger (310). They will join Holland (322), Kuper (305), and Pears
(305).

They must have been reading your posts. :beer:

-----

[Lonestar]

Well, JR, as you implied, hopefully the Broncos found a couple of those
heavier but still good and fast offensive linemen in Clady (317) and
Lichtensteiger (310). They will join Holland (322), Kuper (305), and Pears
(305).

They must have been reading your posts. :beer:

-----

I doubt it, but I'm glad to see him prioritize the OLINE this year and DL last year.. Instead of taking also rans and players no one else wanted..

It is about time to pay attention to the LOS, he has tried for a decade to do it on the cheap and perhaps with Gibbs here he might have been able to get more out of the featherweights than they have..

We now might be set for the next decade barring injury and prudent resigning of the quality players.. We may have to dip into the LOS draft again in a year or two to fill out or prepare for players that are going to move on.. Much like NE, PHL and a few others do..

I'm tried of wasting day one picks on WR, CB are are flakes. Lets hope clady is the real thing not just big..

[TXBRONC]

There is no way to make it right because the information doesn't back up your theory. Look at the variation that you have in linemen. Some are small some are big. The key is to get ones who are good. I wouldn't argue that we should throw out Leonard Davis because he's 354 any more than we should throw out Nalen because he's 286. Get the guys who are good and let them play at the weight that is best suited for them.

If they were all big that would mean that we would have to get bigger, but since some are big and some are small that means we just have to get the right guys.

The problem is that Guys like Davis make it look like everyone is bigger than the linemen that we had, which just isn't true.



I don't want to admit that our o-line was ineffective but I said that we were bad last year. I still have that image of Kuper knocking the ball out of Jay's hand and causing a redzone fumble. I just don't agree with you on how to fix the problem. The solution isn't to get bigger it's to bring in the right guys and practice until they execute the play correctly. It's to bring in guys with a mean streak who don't just block somebody but flatten them and then fall on them just because.

I think anybody who looks at the problems we've had the past two years would conclude that the struggles we've had come from injuries, and a lack of continuity on the o-line.



The problem with this is because the game isn't about getting the most yards. Yards gained has only a very loose connection to winning which is what I want to do. Why the NFL focuses on yards instead of scoring is beyond me. Notice that Oakland is up there. Of the teams on the list that I think we should be like two are big and two are small which shows that size isn't that big of a deal.



I got that from Schlereth "Truth is, bigger isn't better. Better is better," Schlereth said.



I see it, but I think it's the wrong thing to focus on to fix the problem.



Sure Bigger and Better can go hand in hand, but I don't want to pass on a great player because he's not 10-15 pounds bigger than the guys we have. If he is 10-15 pounds bigger then fine I wouldn't want to pass on a guy just because he's 322 either, but let's bring in quality guys.

Absolutely, getting bigger for the sake of getting bigger wont work. It's the quality of the player that is most important.
:beer:

[Stargazer]

Denver has had some serious problems falling behind other teams in talent and competetiveness. Looking at the roster and the film, the root of it can be traced to 2 areas. The offensive and defensive lines.

The lines? This team has sucked at drafting. Which has been screwing the entire roster, not just the trenches.

[Lonestar]

The lines? This team has sucked at drafting. Which has been screwing the entire roster, not just the trenches.

Your dead on here, for the longest time the draft under mikeys regime had sucked big time..

However the past few drafts seem to have turned things around..

We have the potential between UDFA's and draft choices this year IF they mostly stick combined with last two drafts of being somewhere in the high teens and low 20's of new blood joining the team.

Most of them being in positions of need. With fewer FA signings and the ones that were, some could be looked at as rentals this year until the new blood takes over next year..

Mikey did poorly drafting from 2000 through 2004 with just a couple of back up players taken in 2005. 2006 just might have been the best ever draft class in Broncos history. 2007 is to soon to tell for sure but has the makings of perhaps #2 best.

Pat laid down the law after the past season was over and publicly stated we are going toe build this team via the draft and stay out of the EXPENSIVE FA market.

SO far so good IMO..

[topscribe]

The lines? This team has sucked at drafting. Which has been screwing the entire roster, not just the trenches.


Your dead on here, for the longest time the draft under mikeys regime had sucked big time..

However the past few drafts seem to have turned things around..

We have the potential between UDFA's and draft choices this year IF they mostly stick combined with last two drafts of being somewhere in the high teens and low 20's of new blood joining the team.

Most of them being in positions of need. With fewer FA signings and the ones that were, some could be looked at as rentals this year until the new blood takes over next year..

Mikey did poorly drafting from 2000 through 2004 with just a couple of back up players taken in 2005. 2006 just might have been the best ever draft class in Broncos history. 2007 is to soon to tell for sure but has the makings of perhaps #2 best.

Pat laid down the law after the past season was over and publicly stated we are going toe build this team via the draft and stay out of the EXPENSIVE FA market.

SO far so good IMO..

Just a couple backup players in 2005? Of course, you're talking about Foxy
and Paymah, right? Because they are backups to Champ and Bly doesn't
mean they were weak picks. You are talking about Champ and Bly, after all.

Did you forget Darrent? Because of what happened to Darrent did not mean
he wasn't a good pick. After all, he was starting. And Myers was was an
excellent pick for a 6th. He started last year in place of the injured Nalen.

While I would like to have seen a first round in 2005, I believe it was a very
good year, and it just got better from there in 2006.

Also overlooked was that 2005 was a very good FA year, too, with the
acquisitions of Ekuban, Engelberger, Warren, and Pears. (I wish Warren
were still here.)

-----

[Fan in Exile]

I just have a minor quibble with the people who think we suck at drafting. Certainly there are some bad drafts but I don't think that we've drafted much worse than other teams. I think that we are seriously about average when it comes to drafting. Certainly we are as good as I want to be. But taking a realistic view of things I wouldn't say that we suck at it. Don't get me wrong either I don't want to be average I want to have great drafts.

What I think kills us is letting people go that we should keep. Just to name a few Reagor, Clark, Hixon. How much different would our draft have looked this year if we still had Hixon and Eslinger on our team? Maybe we would have still gotten Lichtensteiger but we certainly wouldn't have brought in Wiegmann. Our second pick would have gone to something other than WR.

Then to there are the guys that we bring in. To me nothing highlights this better than Ian Gold. We'd already drafted Williams. We should have spent that time finding a true SAM.

[Lonestar]

Just a couple backup players in 2005? Of course, you're talking about Foxy
and Paymah, right? Because they are backups to Champ and Bly doesn't
mean they were weak picks. You are talking about Champ and Bly, after all.

Did you forget Darrent? Because of what happened to Darrent did not mean
he wasn't a good pick. After all, he was starting. And Myers was was an
excellent pick for a 6th. He started last year in place of the injured Nalen.

While I would like to have seen a first round in 2005, I believe it was a very
good year, and it just got better from there in 2006.

Also overlooked was that 2005 was a very good FA year, too, with the
acquisitions of Ekuban, Engelberger, Warren, and Pears. (I wish Warren
were still here.)

-----


Remember that Officially darrent was taken as a KR, with Paymah being touted as the steal of that years draft for CB. Just so happens that darrent took the starting job away from stretch, which was good and bad IMO.

Good in regards that he was best man for the job, bad because he would not have been looked at for CB had he not been able to KR.

Yet lots of folks were calling for foxy to get the CB job towards the end of the year.

Some folks feel that foxy and Paymah could be starters in the league YET no one sniffing at them while being a low draft choice RFA speaks IMO volumes about other coaches thinking they could be starters. SO that is why I did not add that draft class to my list of good ones, merely mentioned them as backups BECAUSE that is what they are and probably always be...

Meyers well he was just another OLINE guy that would probably not been drafted by anyone if it was not for mikey buying cheap for his ZBS.. But then he is gone allowed to leave because he did not fit into there future plans. That also speaks volumes IMO..

Speaking of FA and trades in 2005 the year of the Brownco. Well I'll let that speak for itself..

2006 seems to be the turning point in player acquisitions save the rice, fat boy and a few others implosions.

Sorry if I was not positive enough for you. But this is as good as I can come to praising mikey for his GM duties.

[Lonestar]

I just have a minor quibble with the people who think we suck at drafting. Certainly there are some bad drafts but I don't think that we've drafted much worse than other teams. I think that we are seriously about average when it comes to drafting. Certainly we are as good as I want to be. But taking a realistic view of things I wouldn't say that we suck at it. Don't get me wrong either I don't want to be average I want to have great drafts.

What I think kills us is letting people go that we should keep. Just to name a few Reagor, Clark, Hixon. How much different would our draft have looked this year if we still had Hixon and Eslinger on our team? Maybe we would have still gotten Lichtensteiger but we certainly wouldn't have brought in Wiegmann. Our second pick would have gone to something other than WR.

Then to there are the guys that we bring in. To me nothing highlights this better than Ian Gold. We'd already drafted Williams. We should have spent that time finding a true SAM.

this is one of the most astute posts of this thread..

We drafted reagor and never played him in the 3 or so years he was here yet he went on to start at INDY. He was stuck behind Expensive FA at the time..

We allowed Reggie and Berry to get away because of mikeys inability to get a new contract done during TC in both of their contract years.. Massive screw up IMO.

We drastically overpaid price and then could not keep a fire lite under his ass. and then had to cut him because he was not worth 9 million in his final couple of years..
with prudent contractmanship of dealing with these three players we would not have been is such dire straights on the DL like like we have been over the past 4-5 years..

Take Hixon last year was it him of the clowns he was playing behind? Or did he just piss mikey off once to many times..
We have allowed many players to get lose there were several CB that went on to starting roles in OAK 6-7 years ago..

The gold fiasco IMO was mikeys biggest FUBAR..


Great post thanks for bringing it up..

[topscribe]

Remember that Officially darrent was taken as a KR, with Paymah being touted as the steal of that years draft for CB. Just so happens that darrent took the starting job away from stretch, which was good and bad IMO.

Good in regards that he was best man for the job, bad because he would not have been looked at for CB had he not been able to KR.

Yet lots of folks were calling for foxy to get the CB job towards the end of the year.

Some folks feel that foxy and Paymah could be starters in the league YET no one sniffing at them while being a low draft choice RFA speaks IMO volumes about other coaches thinking they could be starters. SO that is why I did not add that draft class to my list of good ones, merely mentioned them as backups BECAUSE that is what they are and probably always be...

Meyers well he was just another OLINE guy that would probably not been drafted by anyone if it was not for mikey buying cheap for his ZBS.. But then he is gone allowed to leave because he did not fit into there future plans. That also speaks volumes IMO..

Speaking of FA and trades in 2005 the year of the Brownco. Well I'll let that speak for itself..

2006 seems to be the turning point in player acquisitions save the rice, fat boy and a few others implosions.

Sorry if I was not positive enough for you. But this is as good as I can come to praising mikey for his GM duties.

Yes, and the Browncos were good moves. Very good moves. First, they
were cheap. Second, Ekuban is still with us, and he was more than
productive before he was injured. While Warren never lived up to his first
round status, he was productive for the Broncos, and when they got rid of
him they dumped their best defensive lineman . . . Bates' folly. Lang was
very helpful to us as a stopgap, and C. Brown would have been a beast,
had his knee cooperated. Even (the Browncos') Myers provided help while
he was here. The Browncos made it a better year, not worse.

And of course unknowledgeable people were calling for D-Will's replacement.
Shanny said that a CB does not come into his own until the third year.
D-Will was in only his second year, for pity's sake. People were calling for
Elway's departure in his second year, too, if you remember. But a lot of
people in the know considered D-Will a future star.

I believe plenty of people will be sniffing at Foxy next year. As a UFA, no
team will have to compensate the Broncos directly if they sign him away.
And good CBs are at a premium.

Nonetheless, both Foxy and Paymah are important cogs now in the Denver
defense. D-Will was a starter. And so was Chris Myers, and he is still a
starter for Houston, as I understand. So I still maintain 2005 was a good
year for the Broncos, gearing up to the dynamite year in 2006 and probably
2007.

Of course, we'll have to see about 2008. But those players have several
experts, who know those players and who know the Broncos,
enthusiastic. Among the later draft choices, Williams and Lichtensteiger
have especially drawn praises. And I've heard a couple analysts say that
Torain is a sleeper who may make some noise. So we likely have some studs
there.

Shanny's DAFTing is fading into history, JR. He is taking away a lot of your
topic material with good recent drafts. ;)

-----

[lex]

Yes, and the Browncos were good moves. Very good moves. First, they
were cheap. Second, Ekuban is still with us, and he was more than
productive before he was injured. While Warren never lived up to his first
round status, he was productive for the Broncos, and when they got rid of
him they dumped their best defensive lineman . . . Bates' folly. Lang was
very helpful to us as a stopgap, and C. Brown would have been a beast,
had his knee cooperated. Even (the Browncos') Myers provided help while
he was here. The Browncos made it a better year, not worse.

And of course unknowledgeable people were calling for D-Will's replacement.
Shanny said that a CB does not come into his own until the third year.
D-Will was in only his second year, for pity's sake. People were calling for
Elway's departure in his second year, too, if you remember. But a lot of
people in the know considered D-Will a future star.

I believe plenty of people will be sniffing at Foxy next year. As a UFA, no
team will have to compensate the Broncos directly if they sign him away.
And good CBs are at a premium.

Nonetheless, both Foxy and Paymah are important cogs now in the Denver
defense. D-Will was a starter. And so was Chris Myers, and he is still a
starter for Houston, as I understand. So I still maintain 2005 was a good
year for the Broncos, gearing up to the dynamite year in 2006 and probably
2007.

Of course, we'll have to see about 2008. But those players have several
experts, who know those players and who know the Broncos,
enthusiastic. Among the later draft choices, Williams and Lichtensteiger
have especially drawn praises. And I've heard a couple analysts say that
Torain is a sleeper who may make some noise. So we likely have some studs
there.

Shanny's DAFTing is fading into history, JR. He is taking away a lot of your
topic material with good recent drafts. ;)

-----

Not trying to make a big thing about it but if an analyst wants to say something safe, saying a RB in Denver could do well is one thing that could easily be classified as not going out on a limb. Its been established that Denver is very RB friendly. But aside from the way RB was handled I agree with you...its just unfortunate that RB is a place of high impact for us. I could realistically see every rookie make it in addition to Alridge and Woodyard who were both UFAs.

[topscribe]

this is one of the most astute posts of this thread..

We drafted reagor and never played him in the 3 or so years he was here yet he went on to start at INDY. He was stuck behind Expensive FA at the time..

We allowed Reggie and Berry to get away because of mikeys inability to get a new contract done during TC in both of their contract years.. Massive screw up IMO.

We drastically overpaid price and then could not keep a fire lite under his ass. and then had to cut him because he was not worth 9 million in his final couple of years..
with prudent contractmanship of dealing with these three players we would not have been is such dire straights on the DL like like we have been over the past 4-5 years..

Take Hixon last year was it him of the clowns he was playing behind? Or did he just piss mikey off once to many times..
We have allowed many players to get lose there were several CB that went on to starting roles in OAK 6-7 years ago..

The gold fiasco IMO was mikeys biggest FUBAR..


Great post thanks for bringing it up..

Well, Gold and the DLs you mentioned. It still gripes my ass that especially
Berry and Pryce went on to other teams and tore it up for them. And then
Warren is ripped from the weakest position on the team and traded to our
worst rival for a meh pick to accommodate an already failing defensive
scheme.

Berry, Hayward, Pryce, Warren, Thomas, and Doom. :shocked: What a line.

Robertson wouldn't even have been an afterthought.

-----

[Lonestar]

Well, Gold and the DLs you mentioned. It still gripes my ass that especially
Berry and Pryce went on to other teams and tore it up for them. And then
Warren is ripped from the weakest position on the team and traded to our
worst rival for a meh pick to accommodate an already failing defensive
scheme.

Berry, Hayward, Pryce, Warren, Thomas, and Doom. :shocked: What a line.

Robertson wouldn't even have been an afterthought.

-----

While I thought it was time to go for price because he was not worth Mil a year, if he had had a better cap number I would have liked to kept him around.. But letting both Reggie and Berry go the way they did was IMO almost criminal..

Well we will have to agree to disagree on the 2005 draft I dos not see it as all that special.. Even if Meyers would have stayed, regardless that he is just another player that did not make it in DEN..

I had forgotten about Robertson if we get him at reasonable price for the next couple of years, THEN we may not have to top 20 draft another DT next year to shore up the DLine

This is an area IMO we need to draft one every third year at most as I'll bet that a few of them will be lured away when their rookie contract are up.. Alot like PHL does.. they always seem to have the replacement groomed and ready to take the starting spot..

[topscribe]

While I thought it was time to go for price because he was not worth Mil a year, if he had had a better cap number I would have liked to kept him around.. But letting both Reggie and Berry go the way they did was IMO almost criminal..

Well we will have to agree to disagree on the 2005 draft I dos not see it as all that special.. Even if Meyers would have stayed, regardless that he is just another player that did not make it in DEN..

I had forgotten about Robertson if we get him at reasonable price for the next couple of years, THEN we may not have to top 20 draft another DT next year to shore up the DLine

This is an area IMO we need to draft one every third year at most as I'll bet that a few of them will be lured away when their rookie contract are up.. Alot like PHL does.. they always seem to have the replacement groomed and ready to take the starting spot..

We already have Robertson, JR.

Regarding Myers: Because the Broncos traded him does not mean he did not
"make it" in Denver. It was a numbers crunch: Nalen and Hamilton were
coming back, and Kuper showed himself to be a stud. The Broncos still wanted
him and said so. It was just that something had to give. But he started here,
and he will be starting in Houston. That spells good pick.

-----

[Lonestar]

We already have Robertson, JR.

-----

I know he is our property via the trade..
I do not think I've seen a signed contract or terms about it. That was what I was trying to say..

[Lonestar]

We already have Robertson, JR.

Regarding Myers: Because the Broncos traded him does not mean he did not
"make it" in Denver. It was a numbers crunch: Nalen and Hamilton were
coming back, and Kuper showed himself to be a stud. The Broncos still wanted
him and said so. It was just that something had to give. But he started here,
and he will be starting in Houston. That spells good pick.

-----

I would have kept him and gotten rid of one of the others. Hamilton is one concussion away from retirement and perhaps even knowing what day it is. Nalen well who knows if we have another Lepsis coming back.. Great old vet that can't do it any more.

Meyers was not due a new contract till next year.. I would have waited it out IF they thought he was worth keeping..

IF he was a UFA then I had NO problem with it.. But I think he was a RFA..

[topscribe]

I would have kept him and gotten rid of one of the others. Hamilton is one concussion away from retirement and perhaps even knowing what day it is. Nalen well who knows if we have another Lepsis coming back.. Great old vet that can't do it any more.

Meyers was not due a new contract till next year.. I would have waited it out IF they thought he was worth keeping..

IF he was a UFA then I had NO problem with it.. But I think he was a RFA..

I have to agee with you, JR. If Myers is deemed good enough to start, why is
he now somewhere else in lieu of old OLs we are still unsure about? I am really
getting tired of sending good people down the road. :mad:

-----

[Retired_Member_001]

I have to agee with you, JR. If Myers is deemed good enough to start, why is
he now somewhere else in lieu of old OLs we are still unsure about? I am really
getting tired of sending good people down the road. :mad:

-----

I agree.

If someone gets injured, Myers can hold down a spot and do a good job of it. He can play LG, C or RG effectively. He's a guy you really would like on your team. At the moment if we have a G or a C go down injured, we don't have the same backup as we did when Myers was here. Mistake in my opinion. What did we even get for him? Wasn't it a 5th or 6th round pick?

[Lonestar]

I have to agee with you, JR. If Myers is deemed good enough to start, why is
he now somewhere else in lieu of old OLs we are still unsure about? I am really
getting tired of sending good people down the road. :mad:

-----

While I'm not in favor of cutting old player JUST to keep the pups, sometime one has to look at the long haul..

He was either good enough to play down the road or he was not..

I suspect even though he played and started a few games he was found wanting..

Although hardly a big loss in the "draft" still not a Huge plus.. Not like mikey has done in the pat with finding OLINE gems on day two..

Hopefully that is something we will not be banking on in the future and he will rely on spending more first day picks on them..

They will come to understand the merits of quality drafting of Quality players for Premium spots..

[topscribe]

While I'm not in favor of cutting old player JUST to keep the pups, sometime one has to look at the long haul..

He was either good enough to play down the road or he was not..

I suspect even though he played and started a few games he was found wanting..

Although hardly a big loss in the "draft" still not a Huge plus.. Not like mikey has done in the pat with finding OLINE gems on day two..

Hopefully that is something we will not be banking on in the future and he will rely on spending more first day picks on them..

They will come to understand the merits of quality drafting of Quality players for Premium spots..

Well, I agree, except that, as Lepsis demonstrated, players over the hill are
not good for the long haul. Not saying Nalen and Hamilton are over the hill,
but it won't be long . . .

I agree regarding trying to pick up second-day gems, now that several
other teams are going to zone schemes. However, I think we got away with
one in Lichtensteiger. The guy is ugly mean, quick, and powerful. I think
he'll surprise.

-----

[Ziggy]

Well, I agree, except that, as Lepsis demonstrated, players over the hill are
not good for the long haul. Not saying Nalen and Hamilton are over the hill,
but it won't be long . . .

I agree in trying to pick up second-day gems, now that several other teams
are going to zone schemes. However, I think we got away with one in
Lichtensteiger. The guy is ugly mean, quick, and powerful. I think he'll
surprise.

-----

I agree. Without the injury he probably goes no later than the 2nd round. We stole another one. Difference is, this one is BIG and nasty. I think that this is our center of the future. Give him one year to learn behind Nalen, and I'd be willing to bet he plays center next year whether Hamilton is healthy or not.

[topscribe]

I agree. Without the injury he probably goes no later than the 2nd round. We stole another one. Difference is, this one is BIG and nasty. I think that this is our center of the future. Give him one year to learn behind Nalen, and I'd be willing to bet he plays center next year whether Hamilton is healthy or not.

If Clady shows he can pick it up from the start at LT, and Harris or Pears
show his worth at RT, I would say Hamilton's starting position could be in
jeopardy, at the hands of Kuper . . . this year.

I have a suspicion that the OL is about to become a strength again. :beer:

-----

[Ziggy]

If Clady shows he can pick it up from the start at LT, and Harris or Pears
show his worth at RT, I would say Hamilton's starting position could be in
jeopardy, at the hands of Kuper . . . this year.

I have a suspicion that the OL is about to become a strength again. :beer:

-----

I don't know if it's going to be a strength this year, but if Clady works out as planned, definitely within the next 2-3.

[Tned]

I know he is our property via the trade..
I do not think I've seen a signed contract or terms about it. That was what I was trying to say..

It was done immediately and conincidental with the trade. My understanding is that the contract was worked out prior to the trade being executed:

Rotoworld.com


Dewayne Robertson - DL May. 1 - 10:03 pm et

Dewayne Robertson's contract with the Broncos is in theory worth $24 million over six seasons.

However, the deal is contingent on Robertson making the roster out of camp. If he does, he'll get a $3.1 million bonus on top of a $900,000 salary. He can net $3 million in 2009. Denver is at little risk if Robertson's knee acts up.

[haroldthebarrel]

At least Shanahan has began to fill the trenches with some talent. I hope both Clady and Liechtenstieger will be here for a long time.

It is about five years too late, but at least it is a start.

[Lonestar]

Well, I agree, except that, as Lepsis demonstrated, players over the hill are
not good for the long haul. Not saying Nalen and Hamilton are over the hill,
but it won't be long . . .

I agree regarding trying to pick up second-day gems, now that several
other teams are going to zone schemes. However, I think we got away with
one in Lichtensteiger. The guy is ugly mean, quick, and powerful. I think
he'll surprise.

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I think everyone expected lepsis to step in and play like he awlays did but it was apparent early that something was wrong . I;m surprised he was not sat down but then he might have been teh only player left in the cupboard TOO.

As I said in an earlier post I'd rather see Licthensteiger starting this year IF he is able to do so physically get the transformation done so these guys will not be hamstrung again next year when Nalen is gone..

IF they are able to play I see the LINE being:
OLT clady Port side
OLG Kuper Port side
C Licthensteiger
ORG Holland Starboard side
ORT Harris Starboard side

This would be a pretty big step up in drop back passing protection and road grader size for run blocking .. Perhaps Graham and Scheffler can actually go out and do what they are supposed to do catch balls over the middle.. Intimidate the safeties and LBs opening up the running game, which in turn opens up the passing game..

[Lonestar]

It was done immediately and conincidental with the trade. My understanding is that the contract was worked out prior to the trade being executed:

Rotoworld.com

thanks

I thought I had heard they had the contract settled on BEFORE the trade, but I had not seen any of the details, usually they are posted all over the place..

I must have been asleep when they were posted..

[topscribe]

I think everyone expected lepsis to step in and play like he awlays did but it was apparent early that something was wrong . I;m surprised he was not sat down but then he might have been teh only player left in the cupboard TOO.

As I said in an earlier post I'd rather see Licthensteiger starting this year IF he is able to do so physically get the transformation done so these guys will not be hamstrung again next year when Nalen is gone..

IF they are able to play I see the LINE being:
OLT clady
ORG Kuper
C Licthensteiger
OLG Holland
ORT Harris

This would be a pretty big step up in drop back passing protection and road grader size for run blocking .. Perhaps Graham and Scheffler can actually go out and do what they are supposed to do catch balls over the middle.. Intimidate the safeties and LBs opening up the running game, which in turn opens up the passing game..

Maybe you mean Holland at RG and Kuper at LG? I wouldn't want to switch them.

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[Lonestar]

Maybe you mean Holland at RG and Kuper at LG? I wouldn't want to switch them.

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so noted.. thanks I'll change it.. left right I'm an old navy guy and it is port and starboard..

[Ziggy]

so noted.. thanks I'll change it.. left right I'm an old navy guy and it is port and starboard..

I knew there was something I liked about you JR. A fellow squid. Getting DRob for 24 over 6 years is a steal if his knees hold up. Our lines really are starting to look good, although I don't see Lichtensteiger playing this year unless Nalen doesn't come back at 100%. If Kory could learn to use leverage the way Nalen does, he'll be a force at C for us for the next 10 years, and will do it 310 pounds. I'm loving what we're building here.:beer:

[Lonestar]

I knew there was something I liked about you JR. A fellow squid. Getting DRob for 24 over 6 years is a steal if his knees hold up. Our lines really are starting to look good, although I don't see Lichtensteiger playing this year unless Nalen doesn't come back at 100%. If Kory could learn to use leverage the way Nalen does, he'll be a force at C for us for the next 10 years, and will do it 310 pounds. I'm loving what we're building here.:beer:

NO I'm not a skimmer, or Airedale. I'm THE silence of the seas..

Frankly port and starboard were not used all that much except by the helmsman at 300 feet.. My boat was a quiet one.. a black hole at 300 feet under a thermal invisible...

Yep I hope that Kory can take the job away from nails getting another 35 pounds at center would be huge.. 310 maybe just be his the starting point..

Finally mike seems to have seen the light, lets hope he does not get lazy and forget to start replacing these kids on day one over the next few years..

[ktrain]

NO I'm not a skimmer, or Airedale. I'm THE silence of the seas..

Frankly port and starboard were not used all that much except by the helmsman at 300 feet.. My boat was a quiet one.. a black hole at 300 feet under a thermal invisible...

Yep I hope that Kory can take the job away from nails getting another 35 pounds at center would be huge.. 310 maybe just be his the starting point..

Finally mike seems to have seen the light, lets hope he does not get lazy and forget to start replacing these kids on day one over the next few years..

Jwiz, I'm an x-Navy submariner myself (nuke officer) Served from 1989-1994, on a 627 class boomer (SSBN 632). How about U, when did you serve, what rate/rank and what boat?

[Tned]

Jwiz, I'm an x-Navy submariner myself (nuke officer) Served from 1989-1994, on a 627 class boomer (SSBN 632). How about U, when did you serve, what rate/rank and what boat?

:salute:

[Lonestar]

Jwiz, I'm an x-Navy submariner myself (nuke officer) Served from 1989-1994, on a 627 class boomer (SSBN 632). How about U, when did you serve, what rate/rank and what boat?


you have my sympathies
boomer too man I'd have went nuts..

But better than a fast attack who go out and never come back except for fresh food..

USS BANG SS-385 ETR5 1967-68 got an early out because of the war winding down had joined the reserves in 1963 or so..

Had my interview with Rickover and was about to ship over for nuke school when we had a change of command the new Captain was a real dill weed.. the most chicken shit clown I ever dealt with in Subs..

He was really a skimmer at heart even the XO was great compared to this clown JT High was so full of himself... The first Captain I had was great I picked the boat up in a full overhaul in Philly she was a quiet SOB when we got out on sea trials a true black hole when were were on Battery...

[ktrain]

you have my sympathies
boomer too man I'd have went nuts..

But better than a fast attack who go out and never come back except for fresh food..

USS BANG SS-385 ETR5 1967-68 got an early out because of the war winding down had joined the reserves in 1963 or so..

Had my interview with Rickover and was about to ship over for nuke school when we had a change of command the new Captain was a real dill weed.. the most chicken shit clown I ever dealt with in Subs..

He was really a skimmer at heart even the XO was great compared to this clown JT High was so full of himself... The first Captain I had was great I picked the boat up in a full overhaul in Philly she was a quiet SOB when we got out on sea trials a true black hole when were were on Battery...

There are always a lot of uptight ****** that make it to command in the Navy, mostly because the cool ones usually get out after their initial commitment is up. I had two pretty cool captains, but the third one was an absolute joke. I never went to sea with the guy, but some of my buddies did, and they all thought it was a miracle they made it back home alive, as the guy would freak out and panic at the smallest incidents.

I heard alot of Rickover stories when I was in the Navy, I actually interviewed with Adm McKee, who was pretty low key and easy compared to Rickover. glad I did it now, but I would never want to go back!

[Lonestar]

There are always a lot of uptight ****** that make it to command in the Navy, mostly because the cool ones usually get out after their initial commitment is up. I had two pretty cool captains, but the third one was an absolute joke. I never went to sea with the guy, but some of my buddies did, and they all thought it was a miracle they made it back home alive, as the guy would freak out and panic at the smallest incidents.

I heard alot of Rickover stories when I was in the Navy, I actually interviewed with Adm McKee, who was pretty low key and easy compared to Rickover. glad I did it now, but I would never want to go back!

I'm guessing most of the Rickover stories were true.. He made me sit in a chair that must have had 2 inches cut off the back chair legs and 6 or so off the front ones so my knees were almost in my face. Leaning forward like that, it was really uncomfortable and had to set there awhile quietly while he finished up a phone call which was almost whispered.... The room was pretty much dark except for the bright light shining in my face from what I think was a curtain that was behind him.. He also had a desk light that shone d down of the desk never got a good look at his face. Real bony hands..

Like Quals and hazing trying to play mind games and put you at a disadvantage to see you sweat and see if he can crack you..

Little skinny dude but he was the Father of the Nuke NAVY. Without him we would still be burning diesel..and probably fighting the cold war..