Quick draft assessment

[G_Money]

So...weird draft.

Opinions:

1) Clady. Grade: A-. I'm cool with Clady. I would have probably picked Williams as a more ready guy, but Clady has a chance to excell in both run AND pass blocking in a few years. I think Jay's gonna need to be more aware of his blind side this year tho - Ryan's gonna be a bit raw and get exposed some early.

2) Royal. Grade: B-. Don't mind Royal the guy. I think he's a fabulous person who gives 110% effort. That's not the problem. I would have preferred an honest to God #2 wideout instead of a #3 Slot/KR hybrid who we're hoping can fulfill the promise of both sides of that slash. Still, of the guys who are WR/KR hybrids I really like Eddie. I think he's great. No who I would have picked, but I can live with it and enjoy Eddie being on the team...assuming Shanny doesn't fire another KR for having a bad week.

4) Lichtensteiger. Grade: B+. Love Kory. He's a bad mamma jamma. The complaint about him is "short arms and pass protection." Hey, Nalen had the same complaints. Pros? "Nasty player who kills it on every down." Again, Nalen. Who's he studying with for his first year in the league? Nalen. Love it. Probly play some guard and get to center later in his career, but I like the pick and the revamp of the O-line.

4) Jack Williams. Grade: C-. Here's where I went "wuh huh?" If we'd traded Foxy, maybe, but Jack is a lil like a slower D-Will...who can't return kicks, because if he could you wouldn't have drafted Royal. He's a nickel, especially for us, just as Foxy and Paymah are. I don't mind that, but I don't think I need it right now. We have those guys. If he could return kicks, maybe, but he won't. Still, he's a competent player with heart. I don't hate him. I just don't understand why him if we're gonna draft a RB with the next pick and Choice is still here. Can't we call Dallas and trade Foxy for Choice? Then this pick makes some sort of sense. Or we could be jumping the DB problem a year early instead of a year late...but it's not Shanny's style.

5) Torain. Grade: D+. Okay seriously - Torain? You had the choice between, well, CHOICE and Torain and you decided to take Williams in the 4th and Torain here? He's only played like 18 months of real football, being a Juco guy before that. And then he ripped his foot up something fierce. He's a huge kid, with a lot of interesting measurables that he doesn't include in his actual running style. In our offense his patience and waiting for the play to develop will be good, and he can hit a hole...but IIRC he can't block. He's a definite project, and as a project he's a guy we'd work back into that two-headed running monster of the Bells. Torain is Mike Bell and Young is Tatum Bell.

Are we still playing that game? Really? *sighs*

We're hoping that Torain could be Mike Anderson, but he has to learn how to block first, and how to really get into the turf when he runs. He runs too light
ly for his size.

Still, every stupid back that comes here looks at least good, and I'm sure Torain will be no exception. Congrats on the extension of your pro career, Ryan - you're a lucky stiff. I hope you learn like they think you can - you've definitely got the growth left to get, anyway. And there's definitely potential there...I just don't like our chances of getting it out of you, I guess. Time to cross the fingers and hope.

5) Powell. Grade: B-. No real problem with Powell. Another GREAT guy, hard worker, plays hard every down. Total run stopper with fewer issues than some of the other guys. He's fine for our rotation and a nice guy to try to fit in when a starter needs a break. I think he'll stick and make the team and become part of the rotation.

6) Larsen. Grade: B. He's a thumper. He'll never be out there on 3rd, not with his (lack of) speed, but we won't need him to be. He's a leader, he's a football player, he'll lumber down on special teams and IMO could start at MLB over Niko...if every little thing broke right in the next 5 months. We'll see how this year goes, but I think he makes the squad, and it's hard to call guys who make the squad bad picks late on the second day. I like Larsen fine...Except that freakin' Woodyard was still here....*grumble*

7) Barrett. Grade: B. See, there are interesting people left. Barrett can play some ball. Not a cover safety, but oh baby is he fast and can be a hitter when he wants to be. And big. I was really into Barrett when the year started, but he totally tanked this year. He's an odd duck, and I don't think I really understand him. I know he has all the tools, an ABUNDANCE of tools, but he hasn't yet put them all in place. Still, neither had Lynch when he came out and he learned all right. I'd love to see him succeed and in the 7th? Pure gold. That's a bet I'll take and see if it pays off big, because it doesn't cost us much.

7) Hillis. Grade: B+. Well, on the plus side Shanny finally took a damn fullback. Hillis does, well, everything. Pass-blocking, lead-blocking, blitz protection, takes passes in the flat, runs in short yardage situations...he's been called the Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none type, but I dunno that that's true. I think he WILL become a master of some, and that's kinda exciting. For the first time in a while I think we might have the guy to send into the hole to crack the 'backer and let us get some extra inches on short yardage.


So:

Clady - starter, good pick.

Royal - KR immediately, should be starter at the slot by next year, decent pick.

Lichtensteiger - Nalen's understudy this year at least, starting guard in year 2-3, then center after Hamilton's gone (Since Ben will replace Nalen). Good pick.

Williams - not a starter, probably a nickel - if he can dislodge the other 2 nickels we've already got. Maybe there's a trade in the works. Not a pick I really like yet, but I don't hate it. I just don't understand it.

Torain - Not a starter, not an immediate backup, a project who might help next year...or not. Don't like the pick.

Powell - rotational guy on the DL, decent pick for the need and the slot.

Larsen - Backup MLB, could mean Webster's gone if Kou works out and Larsen has a great camp. Or could be cut with a sucky camp. Still, fine pick and helps me feel better about our MLB situation.

Barrett - All the tools, not enough of the skills yet. Most talented safety on our roster now. There's nothing that kid can't do on a football field. There are just too many things he doesn't know how to do...yet. Time for a red-shirt year, I think. PS this year, roster the next.

Hillis - this year's starting FB? If he learns fast enough, that's my guess. If not, he should be next year.


That's a really interesting talent mix of starters and trainees and quality backups, most of whom should make this team. If a couple of the diamonds in the rough come through, it could be a REALLY impressive draft. If they don't, it's still got quality potential.

Grade: B. I'm not screaming for joy, but with what we hope is the LT of the next decade, the solution to our KR woes and a solid #3 receiver, our potential C of the future, more DL help, depth at MLB and RB and CB, a starting FB and a potential starting S in training, how loudly can you really complain?

Don't answer that. :coffee:

And we'll see what UDFAs we add to the mix to boost our camp faces. All in all, not that bad.

Which is a rarity for me to say on draft day. I kinda like it.

~G

[Broncospsycho77]

I agree. Not a sexy draft. No big names, eye catchers, or guys with an attitude problem, but functional, getting-into-the-routine guys. We had needs, and filled them (except K/P), probably picking most of them for a reason.

[claymore]

I agree. Not a sexy draft. No big names, eye catchers, or guys with an attitude problem, but functional, getting-into-the-routine guys. We had needs, and filled them (except K/P), probably picking most of them for a reason.Almost verbatim of what I was going to say.

The excitement of this draft will come on game day. Hopefully. :laugh:

[DenBronx]

i think mikeys main mistake was not getting choice in the 4th. if he would have done that this draft would have looked alot better. then go for the cb in the 5th.


also...what are we going to do at kicker? is prater really the answer? are we going to sign vanderjerk?

[DenBronx]

day two really just added depth. none of those guys are really game changers. larsen concerns me because he looks really slow. powell looks promising i guess, from what ive read he is pretty quick and elusive at 295 pounds. travis henry i think feels like he won the lottery when he found out we got peyton hillis. clady, hillis and with the addition of graham last year we should see some vast improvement in the running and passing attack.

[Scarface]

I like this draft a lot. We addressed the O-Line. We got a returner. Casserly says Royal has a great chance to be a pro bowler as a returner. We got a steal on Williams. Dude ran a 4.32 and can hit. He caused 7 fumbles in his college career. How anyone can complain about a Mike Shanahan back is beyond me. I just give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Torain. Shanny and Bobby Turner have certainly earned that. And we finished the draft with Larsen, Barrett, and Hillis?! You've got to be kidding me.

I think the roster just got upgraded with a lot of team first guys who love the game of football. Training camp is going to be awesome this year for the competition alone.

[G_Money]

Yeah, Choice in the 4th would have cleared up a lot of this for me.

Kickers and Punters can all be had as UDFAs. We'll get one. Sadly, we're in a place after a HOF kicker where we are gonna be sifting that spot for a while, I think. We'll see. Drafting a kicker wouldn't have made him the right one. I'd rather have a couple cattle calls, personally.

But what I want right now is Wesley Woodyard. Undrafted? Go find that kid and offer him a spot - immediately.

The good thing about the UDFAs is it gives us some lingering fun after the draft. Draft afterglow.

~G

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I'd rather have Choice and Scandrick than Williams and Torain...although I do like Williams.

[DenBronx]

i think we take a serious look at woodyard. just hope the broncos are not slow to pull the trigger. get these guys in camp and let them battle. if a udrfa wins the spot and we have to redshirt a 2nd day pick then im all for it.


what undrated kickers are out there worth bringing in?

[Bronco9798]

I like this draft a lot. We addressed the O-Line. We got a returner. Casserly says Royal has a great chance to be a pro bowler as a returner. We got a steal on Williams. Dude ran a 4.32 and can hit. He caused 7 fumbles in his college career. How anyone can complain about a Mike Shanahan back is beyond me. I just give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to Torain. Shanny and Bobby Turner have certainly earned that. And we finished the draft with Larsen, Barrett, and Hillis?! You've got to be kidding me.

I think the roster just got upgraded with a lot of team first guys who love the game of football. Training camp is going to be awesome this year for the competition alone.

I agree, I liked the draft and what we did. I really have no complaints. I work in a prison, I'm not a scout for an NFL team. I'll take it and see what happens. I'm pretty excited about it all. GO BRONCOS!!!!!!!!

[r8rh8r]

Jack Williams and Josh Barrett may not be the best prospects at their positions in this year's draft, but they are both tremendous values at their draft positions. I've seen Barrett ranked as a 3rd round pick. Had Williams not had a lingering ankle injury, many feel he'd have been a 2nd rounder. Barrett is a high character athlete with tons of upside, I think he slipped. Grade: A

Clady and Lichtensteiger are both home runs. Fantastic prospects who are a great fit for a line that struggled last season. I'm ecstatic about both selections. Grade: A+

Torain and Hillis are obviously two players selected to cure our abysmal short yardage success last season. With two capable pile movers on the roster, we can expect to improve in this area next season. Hillis is actually the faster of the two prospects and could be in the mix for the starting runningback job at some point. I'm not crazy about the Torain pick but am happy we've improved in a critical area. Grade: C

I was enormously disappointed in Powell because he's slow and undersized. He's a 2-gap defender who's a poor tackler and poor lateral mobility. D-

Royal I've posted liberally about and think he's an intriguing player with a lot of flags. He reminds me a lot of Rod Smith but he's got a lot to prove. I don't think he has the skills to be a feared kick returner, although he can certainly be above average. As a pure kick returner, there were guys I thought were better. As a wide receiver, there were guys I thought were better. Ultimately, this was a reach in my opinion. Grade: C-

Larsen is an interesting guy because of his high character and leadership. He looks like a solid special teams guy. He excels in pass coverage. I think he could see some time as a zone defender in big packages and he'll likely be a good special teams guy. Grade: C

[Scarface]

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site36/2008/0427/20080427__DraftSatPicks042708jpg~p1.jpg

[slim]

5) Torain. Grade: D+. Okay seriously - Torain?

~G

You SOB, you take that back :D

[Ziggy]

There were certain areas that we drastically needed to address coming into this draft:

1. Offensive line- Clady, Lichtenstein-check
2. Redzone offense- Clady, Hillis- check
3. Run defense- Powell, Robertson trade- check
4. Special teams- Royal, Hillis, Williams, Torain, Larsen, Barrett- check
5. Depth at MLB- Larsen- check
6. Depth at RB- Torain- check
7. Depth at S- Barrett- check

There are still some needs not adressed. K and P comes to mind, but there are some quality UDFA out there that can fill those gaps. I'm sure there's more that I didn't list, but Denver is reloading in the trenches nicely with the last 2 drafts. Whether the players picked will work out in the long run or not, we won't know for years, but I think we're headed back in the right direction.

[G_Money]

Time to look back on draft opinions. You're supposed to wait 3 years, because of development time, but we can sure do a first pass on this draft, right?

Opinions:

1) Clady. Grade: A-. I'm cool with Clady. I would have probably picked Williams as a more ready guy, but Clady has a chance to excell in both run AND pass blocking in a few years. I think Jay's gonna need to be more aware of his blind side this year tho - Ryan's gonna be a bit raw and get exposed some early.

Results grade: A+. +++++. +. Plus. Holy crap did Clady just clean up this year. He got beat about once every 4 games, and never the same way twice. He was unbeatable in pass protection, a crazy monster blocking downfield on screens and edge runs, mobile as hell, fine in run blocking...There wasn't anything he couldn't do, and didn't do well. If there's a better LT for our zone scheme I don't know who it would be. I thought he'd spend the first half of the year getting acclimated and the second half showing why he's worth the pick. He just killed it from day one. Phenomenal pick, especially when viewing Williams' back issues and some of the other tackles and their injury situations. Clady's a monster - and he's OUR monster. Mwahahaha.


2) Royal. Grade: B-. Don't mind Royal the guy. I think he's a fabulous person who gives 110% effort. That's not the problem. I would have preferred an honest to God #2 wideout instead of a #3 Slot/KR hybrid who we're hoping can fulfill the promise of both sides of that slash. Still, of the guys who are WR/KR hybrids I really like Eddie. I think he's great. No who I would have picked, but I can live with it and enjoy Eddie being on the team...assuming Shanny doesn't fire another KR for having a bad week.

Results Grade: A. I was wrong about Royal. He’s not a slot receiver, he’s a #2. He’s not just a #2, he was the best rookie wideout this year. Oh, and he’s a great kick returner, though I dunno how long we’re gonna let him do it. He’s just such a great receiver – we may need his energy and his health preserved for that function. I’d hate to turn down his danger factor on returns, though. And Eddie’s exactly the hard working, classy kid I believed him to be. Dedicated, lets his actions speak for him, tough, catches everything, incredible out of double moves, runs better routes than I thought…there’s nothing about Eddie I don’t like. I said before the draft we had to NAIL the first two picks with two long-term starters, and it sure looks like we have.

4) Lichtensteiger. Grade: B+. Love Kory. He's a bad mamma jamma. The complaint about him is "short arms and pass protection." Hey, Nalen had the same complaints. Pros? "Nasty player who kills it on every down." Again, Nalen. Who's he studying with for his first year in the league? Nalen. Love it. Probly play some guard and get to center later in his career, but I like the pick and the revamp of the O-line.

Results Grade: Incomplete. Kory only saw the field in limited duty, as a goal-line fullback, but all indications are that the Broncos coaches loved him and were prepping him for a starting gig in ’09. So at first blush he doesn’t look like an Eslinger. He looks more like a Kuper, the sort of guy who pushes your vets hard for playing time his second year and can’t be brought out of the starting lineup once he’s inserted in it. Here’s hoping. Wiegmann did a manful job this last year, but with no indication of whether he’ll return under a new coaching staff, and Hamilton looking a little average, it’d be nice to see Kory step up. This is where this draft can start getting bonus points, by adding even more quality starters.

4) Jack Williams. Grade: C-. Here's where I went "wuh huh?" If we'd traded Foxy, maybe, but Jack is a lil like a slower D-Will...who can't return kicks, because if he could you wouldn't have drafted Royal. He's a nickel, especially for us, just as Foxy and Paymah are. I don't mind that, but I don't think I need it right now. We have those guys. If he could return kicks, maybe, but he won't. Still, he's a competent player with heart. I don't hate him. I just don't understand why him if we're gonna draft a RB with the next pick and Choice is still here. Can't we call Dallas and trade Foxy for Choice? Then this pick makes some sort of sense. Or we could be jumping the DB problem a year early instead of a year late...but it's not Shanny's style.

Results Grade: C-. Jack got on the field some in nickel and dime packages, but never looked especially impressive. As an aggressive corner who likes to make plays on the ball he looked lost in Slowik’s 15 Yard Cushion scheme. Nothing says he can’t be a decent starter in a press coverage scheme like the one we should be running more of next year, but right now he looks like a 5th or 6th DB, much like Paymah was. It’s not killing us in the 4th, but you’d like more.

5) Torain. Grade: D+. Okay seriously - Torain? You had the choice between, well, CHOICE and Torain and you decided to take Williams in the 4th and Torain here? He's only played like 18 months of real football, being a Juco guy before that. And then he ripped his foot up something fierce. He's a huge kid, with a lot of interesting measurables that he doesn't include in his actual running style. In our offense his patience and waiting for the play to develop will be good, and he can hit a hole...but IIRC he can't block. He's a definite project, and as a project he's a guy we'd work back into that two-headed running monster of the Bells. Torain is Mike Bell and Young is Tatum Bell.

Are we still playing that game? Really? *sighs*

We're hoping that Torain could be Mike Anderson, but he has to learn how to block first, and how to really get into the turf when he runs. He runs too lightly for his size.

Still, every stupid back that comes here looks at least good, and I'm sure Torain will be no exception. Congrats on the extension of your pro career, Ryan - you're a lucky stiff. I hope you learn like they think you can - you've definitely got the growth left to get, anyway. And there's definitely potential there...I just don't like our chances of getting it out of you, I guess. Time to cross the fingers and hope.

Results Grade: Injury incomplete. I really want to give a D here, but I should be nice. None of his injury problems relate to his foot injury. Busting an elbow in a freak tackling injury and then blowing out a knee halfway through his first game are not foreseeable injuries….except the guy already had injury concerns. *sigh* Not getting Tashard Choice in the 4th is still making me bitter, I think. I’d really like to stop picking up the leftovers at RB, though. I don’t want a first-rounder, but a top-5 talent would sure be sweet. In the meantime, I guess I can hope that Ryan comes back from his third catastrophic injury in 2 year with no issues whatsoever and stays healthy and productive for a long time.

I’d also like a pony, while we’re wishing for things…

[G_Money]

5) Powell. Grade: B-. No real problem with Powell. Another GREAT guy, hard worker, plays hard every down. Total run stopper with fewer issues than some of the other guys. He's fine for our rotation and a nice guy to try to fit in when a starter needs a break. I think he'll stick and make the team and become part of the rotation.

Results Grade: Injury incomplete. Can’t say whether Powell will be any good in whatever defensive scheme we run, or whether he can succeed in someone else’s defensive scheme better than he will in ours. Landing on IR does that. We’ll see if he can compete in camp for a DE or DT position.

6) Larsen. Grade: B. He's a thumper. He'll never be out there on 3rd, not with his (lack of) speed, but we won't need him to be. He's a leader, he's a football player, he'll lumber down on special teams and IMO could start at MLB over Niko...if every little thing broke right in the next 5 months. We'll see how this year goes, but I think he makes the squad, and it's hard to call guys who make the squad bad picks late on the second day. I like Larsen fine...Except that freakin' Woodyard was still here....*grumble*

Results Grade: B+. Early returns on Larsen are promising. He was a great special teams player, as all backup linebackers need to be – better than the special teams expert we paid a lot of money for from Seattle. He was our best middle-linebacker, better than that guy from Seattle or the nominal starter, Webster. He’s a sure tackler, has a nose for the football, and out team played less out-of-control with him in the middle. If he’s our backup, he’s a good backup to have, someone I don’t mind having to start if the starter gets injured. If he’s shown enough to compete for a starting job as we address other positions, I’m also surprisingly okay with that. If he winds up as a starter, his grade goes up, and if he stays as an extremely competent backup then he’s still a great pick for this draft spot. And I also got Woodyard, so my gripes about that are gone as well. ;)

7) Barrett. Grade: B. See, there are interesting people left. Barrett can play some ball. Not a cover safety, but oh baby is he fast and can be a hitter when he wants to be. And big. I was really into Barrett when the year started, but he totally tanked this year. He's an odd duck, and I don't think I really understand him. I know he has all the tools, an ABUNDANCE of tools, but he hasn't yet put them all in place. Still, neither had Lynch when he came out and he learned all right. I'd love to see him succeed and in the 7th? Pure gold. That's a bet I'll take and see if it pays off big, because it doesn't cost us much.

Results Grade: B. He was a cover safety, the best safety on our roster as well as the most talented, and it took him until the last few weeks of the season to crack a lineup filled with injury and incompetence. We were pulling worthless castoffs from other teams and shoving them in as starters rather than pulling him off the practice squad. Which made me wonder just how bad Barrett had to be, until he saw the field – and was better than the rest. When Slowik couldn’t even figure out which DB was worth putting in to save his job, with his background as a DB coach, it was the last straw for me. As for Barrett himself, he did nothing to dissuade me from the notion that he’s a massively talented player waiting for the right coach to take the rough edges off. He’s a very smart kid, willing to work hard, has measurables that can’t be topped by any safety in the league…He was a project, but one that could bear startling results, and I’m still a believer that he’s a project worth undertaking in force.

7) Hillis. Grade: B+. Well, on the plus side Shanny finally took a damn fullback. Hillis does, well, everything. Pass-blocking, lead-blocking, blitz protection, takes passes in the flat, runs in short yardage situations...he's been called the Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none type, but I dunno that that's true. I think he WILL become a master of some, and that's kinda exciting. For the first time in a while I think we might have the guy to send into the hole to crack the 'backer and let us get some extra inches on short yardage.

Results Grade: A. Hillis…He’s a freakin’ bruiser, man. He runs as hard as I thought he would, and is an incredible load to break down. His hands are even better than I thought, and he can run actual pass routes and not just jog out into the flat for a lazy, lofted pass. He blocks hard, he runs hard, he catches hard, he salutes hard…he does everything hard. I hope his hamstring is okay, because he’s a piece I want to see us take advantage of for the foreseeable future. At H-Back, TE, fullback, RB…whatever it takes. Hillis is willing to do whatever it takes for us, I don’t see why we shouldn’t return the favor.

Wow.

What I said on a different thread, back in April:


It's gonna be a "potential" draft.

In 5 years we could look back and go "Man! All those guys busted out! Clady really IS Foster the Deuce, Royal can't play wide at the pro level, Lichtensteiger didn't work, Williams is barely hanging on to a roster spot and Torain busted, Barrett and Larsen never turned into anybody, and Hillis is the new Kyle Johnson." It could be a really terrible draft. There aren't any "Sure things."

OTOH, in 5 years it could be this:

"HA! Best draft EVAH!! Clady's in the Pro Bowl.

"Royal's a GREAT #2 and vying with Hester for special teams honors."

"Lichtensteiger is the Man in the middle.

"Williams replaced Bly without breaking a sweat and let us use that money on X.

"And can you believe Torain is a 1500 yard back, Larsen is a rock on D, we have our new Atwater at safety, and our FB is a monster?"

I mean seriously, it's a very talented draft class. We don't know if it will turn into a skilled draft class, or a competent draft class, but the talent really is there, unlike several other years I can name - and we knew it at draft time too, not just 5 years down the road.

But it's definitely gonna need a little bit of patience.

Right now, it doesn’t look like it’s requiring as much patience as I thought.

Clady, Royal and Hillis are all starters, a couple of em verging on Pro-Bowls already. Lichtensteiger and Larsen are both at least quality backups (though we have to go to the rumor mill about Kory) with the potential to start. Barrett and Williams both have work to do but still have the potential to be quality players for us in a scheme other than Slowik’s Crayon-Drawn Plan Of Uselessness, and even Powell and Torain are both injury unknowns who may be able to boost the value of this draft even higher.

The best rookie tackle who got All-Pro votes and deserved a Pro Bowl berth, the best rookie wide receiver, a starting FB who may be half of our running back tandem as well as an H-Back for us, 2 part-time starters who showed competence and should at least be quality backups, and a bunch more who haven't fallen on their faces yet?

Normal drafts have half of the talent gone by the end of training camp. I know our defensive talent level sucked, but it's still impressive that all these guys are still here and look to be here for a while, and we stashed a UDFA like Alridge on IR to make sure he stayed around, while another UDFA in Woodyard started for us and played exceedingly well.

So far, I think the grade for this draft has to be an A.

Even after year one.

Year Three? If everything breaks right it could be better than the draft that got us a Pro Bowl QB and WR, a starting guard, a double-digit-sack DE, and a starting TE. :shocked:

The fact that the same guys made both those drafts, in a three-year span... :shocked:

Can I please see what presents they're gonna bring me this year?

~G

[PatricktheDookie]

I think Royal is a very, very solid receiver. But I don't see him as on the verge of a pro bowl. He's going to be overshadowed by Marshall even if he outperforms him.

[G_Money]

Eh.

Boldin is overshadowed by Fitzgerald, but he still makes Pro Bowls.

Tory Holt and Isaac Bruce did fine playing next to each other and getting recognition.

It makes it harder, but definitely not impossible.

~G

[TXBRONC]

I think Royal is a very, very solid receiver. But I don't see him as on the verge of a pro bowl. He's going to be overshadowed by Marshall even if he outperforms him.

I think Royal is making a name for himself, he will more than likely be overshadowed by Marshall but I think he will garner tremendous respect from his peers.

[CoachChaz]

Look at what Welker and Moss did together under the McDaniels offense. I'm not ready to compare Marshall and Royal to them just yet, but the opportunity to excel will definately be there.

[lex]

5) Powell. Grade: B-. No real problem with Powell. Another GREAT guy, hard worker, plays hard every down. Total run stopper with fewer issues than some of the other guys. He's fine for our rotation and a nice guy to try to fit in when a starter needs a break. I think he'll stick and make the team and become part of the rotation.

Results Grade: Injury incomplete. Can’t say whether Powell will be any good in whatever defensive scheme we run, or whether he can succeed in someone else’s defensive scheme better than he will in ours. Landing on IR does that. We’ll see if he can compete in camp for a DE or DT position.

6) Larsen. Grade: B. He's a thumper. He'll never be out there on 3rd, not with his (lack of) speed, but we won't need him to be. He's a leader, he's a football player, he'll lumber down on special teams and IMO could start at MLB over Niko...if every little thing broke right in the next 5 months. We'll see how this year goes, but I think he makes the squad, and it's hard to call guys who make the squad bad picks late on the second day. I like Larsen fine...Except that freakin' Woodyard was still here....*grumble*

Results Grade: B+. Early returns on Larsen are promising. He was a great special teams player, as all backup linebackers need to be – better than the special teams expert we paid a lot of money for from Seattle. He was our best middle-linebacker, better than that guy from Seattle or the nominal starter, Webster. He’s a sure tackler, has a nose for the football, and out team played less out-of-control with him in the middle. If he’s our backup, he’s a good backup to have, someone I don’t mind having to start if the starter gets injured. If he’s shown enough to compete for a starting job as we address other positions, I’m also surprisingly okay with that. If he winds up as a starter, his grade goes up, and if he stays as an extremely competent backup then he’s still a great pick for this draft spot. And I also got Woodyard, so my gripes about that are gone as well. ;)

7) Barrett. Grade: B. See, there are interesting people left. Barrett can play some ball. Not a cover safety, but oh baby is he fast and can be a hitter when he wants to be. And big. I was really into Barrett when the year started, but he totally tanked this year. He's an odd duck, and I don't think I really understand him. I know he has all the tools, an ABUNDANCE of tools, but he hasn't yet put them all in place. Still, neither had Lynch when he came out and he learned all right. I'd love to see him succeed and in the 7th? Pure gold. That's a bet I'll take and see if it pays off big, because it doesn't cost us much.

Results Grade: B. He was a cover safety, the best safety on our roster as well as the most talented, and it took him until the last few weeks of the season to crack a lineup filled with injury and incompetence. We were pulling worthless castoffs from other teams and shoving them in as starters rather than pulling him off the practice squad. Which made me wonder just how bad Barrett had to be, until he saw the field – and was better than the rest. When Slowik couldn’t even figure out which DB was worth putting in to save his job, with his background as a DB coach, it was the last straw for me. As for Barrett himself, he did nothing to dissuade me from the notion that he’s a massively talented player waiting for the right coach to take the rough edges off. He’s a very smart kid, willing to work hard, has measurables that can’t be topped by any safety in the league…He was a project, but one that could bear startling results, and I’m still a believer that he’s a project worth undertaking in force.

7) Hillis. Grade: B+. Well, on the plus side Shanny finally took a damn fullback. Hillis does, well, everything. Pass-blocking, lead-blocking, blitz protection, takes passes in the flat, runs in short yardage situations...he's been called the Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none type, but I dunno that that's true. I think he WILL become a master of some, and that's kinda exciting. For the first time in a while I think we might have the guy to send into the hole to crack the 'backer and let us get some extra inches on short yardage.

Results Grade: A. Hillis…He’s a freakin’ bruiser, man. He runs as hard as I thought he would, and is an incredible load to break down. His hands are even better than I thought, and he can run actual pass routes and not just jog out into the flat for a lazy, lofted pass. He blocks hard, he runs hard, he catches hard, he salutes hard…he does everything hard. I hope his hamstring is okay, because he’s a piece I want to see us take advantage of for the foreseeable future. At H-Back, TE, fullback, RB…whatever it takes. Hillis is willing to do whatever it takes for us, I don’t see why we shouldn’t return the favor.

Wow.

What I said on a different thread, back in April:



Right now, it doesn’t look like it’s requiring as much patience as I thought.

Clady, Royal and Hillis are all starters, a couple of em verging on Pro-Bowls already. Lichtensteiger and Larsen are both at least quality backups (though we have to go to the rumor mill about Kory) with the potential to start. Barrett and Williams both have work to do but still have the potential to be quality players for us in a scheme other than Slowik’s Crayon-Drawn Plan Of Uselessness, and even Powell and Torain are both injury unknowns who may be able to boost the value of this draft even higher.

The best rookie tackle who got All-Pro votes and deserved a Pro Bowl berth, the best rookie wide receiver, a starting FB who may be half of our running back tandem as well as an H-Back for us, 2 part-time starters who showed competence and should at least be quality backups, and a bunch more who haven't fallen on their faces yet?

Normal drafts have half of the talent gone by the end of training camp. I know our defensive talent level sucked, but it's still impressive that all these guys are still here and look to be here for a while, and we stashed a UDFA like Alridge on IR to make sure he stayed around, while another UDFA in Woodyard started for us and played exceedingly well.

So far, I think the grade for this draft has to be an A.

Even after year one.

Year Three? If everything breaks right it could be better than the draft that got us a Pro Bowl QB and WR, a starting guard, a double-digit-sack DE, and a starting TE. :shocked:

The fact that the same guys made both those drafts, in a three-year span... :shocked:

Can I please see what presents they're gonna bring me this year?

~G


Thats great stuff. I think what makes this an A is Barrett, Hillis, Larsen and Woodyard. I know Woodyard wasnt drafted but the subsequent signing of UFAs comes with knowing about guys through the draft process. But even with Torain and Williams, its hard to ignore the guys we got at the bottom. Or, maybe it says more about our starters and the coaches reluctance to play the rookies when they were better.

[NightTrainLayne]

Look at what Welker and Moss did together under the McDaniels offense. I'm not ready to compare Marshall and Royal to them just yet, but the opportunity to excel will definately be there.

McDaniels has got to be in love with Royal's precision route-running. I can't wait to see what he has in store for our receivers.

[lex]

McDaniels has got to be in love with Royal's precision route-running. I can't wait to see what he has in store for our receivers.

I cant wait to see if were ever going to run the ball again.

[G_Money]

I still think it depends on who we add in the running game.

McD isn’t the one in love with Torain, so I wouldn’t count on him.

If we add Greene, or Jennings, or Brown, or Ringer, then yeah, I think we’ll run it.

If for whatever reason we go into battle next year with Hall and Young as our tailbacks, then we’re definitely putting the ball in the hands of the Pro-Bowl receiving corps and QB.

Here’s hoping Hillis returns at 100% and can tote the rock some for us, and we get another good back, FA or draft, to pair with him.

Balance is good.

~G

[lex]

Here's my grade sheet for the 08 draft.




Weight Wt % % of overall
Ryan Clady A+ 1.00 8 22.2% 22.2%
Eddie Royal A+ 1.00 7 19.4% 19.4%
Kory Lichtensteiger INC
Jack Williams C- 0.70 6 16.7% 11.7%
Ryan Torain F 0.55 5 13.9% 7.6%
Carlton Powell INC
Spencer Larsen A+ 1.00 4 11.1% 11.1%
Josh Barrett A- 0.93 3 8.3% 7.8%
Peyton Hillis A+ 1.00 2 5.6% 5.6%
Wesley Woodyard A+ 1.00 1 2.8% 2.8%
36 100% 88.2%

[Superchop 7]

Hit the ball out of the park with Woodyard and Alridge as UDFA.

[MOtorboat]

Hit the ball out of the park with Woodyard and Alridge as UDFA.

I think the jury is still out on Aldridge, considering he didn't play because of injury.

Its hard to say we hit a home run with a guy who didn't play except in three pre-season games.

[TXBRONC]

I think the jury is still out on Aldridge, considering he didn't play because of injury.

Its hard to say we hit a home run with a guy who didn't play except in three pre-season games.

If he's kept and if he can stay healthy it would be interesting to see what he can do in this offense.

[DenBronx]

Hit the ball out of the park with Woodyard and Alridge as UDFA.

yeah, everyone is forgetting about alridge. the guy showed he can be a threat in preseason. i wonder how we would have looked with him and hillis splitting carries?

overall though this was a great draft! i give it an A+

[Cugel]

The draft was definitely an "A" for Clady and Royal alone. If you find two solid starters you can pencil in for the next 5 years and not worry about their positions, that's great drafting.

The problem was that the defensive needs were simply not addressed.

Right now the core of the defense should be veteran players who were drafted between 2001 and 2007, only there simply AREN'T ANY! DJ Williams is IT!

Shanahan got himself fired by trying to get by with cast-offs. And by emphasizing offense 2 of the last 3 years and picking 3 defensive failures in 2007 he made it worse.

Moss & Crowder have given back NOTHING so far and may never do so.

Thomas has been mediocre and the team is switching to a 3-4 anyway where he'd have to move out to DE to start. He's certainly not a starting NT in the NFL, can't even hold his position strong as a 4-3 DT and NO pressure up the middle, even when he's not double-teamed.

So, getting some backup LBs like Spencer Larsen and Wesley Woodyard, and a project safety like Barrett makes this draft a Pyrrhic Victory. Shanahan won the draft battle but lost the war, and his job!

Sad to see the defense deteriorate so far that even great drafting on offense the last few years: (Cutler, Sheffler, Clady, Harris, Kuper, Marshall, Royal -- all A+ players) couldn't save him.

[NameUsedBefore]

Excellent recognition and write-up.

But you're not getting a pony :(

[G_Money]

The draft was definitely an "A" for Clady and Royal alone. If you find two solid starters you can pencil in for the next 5 years and not worry about their positions, that's great drafting.

The problem was that the defensive needs were simply not addressed.

Right now the core of the defense should be veteran players who were drafted between 2001 and 2007, only there simply AREN'T ANY! DJ Williams is IT!

Shanahan got himself fired by trying to get by with cast-offs. And by emphasizing offense 2 of the last 3 years and picking 3 defensive failures in 2007 he made it worse.

Moss & Crowder have given back NOTHING so far and may never do so.

Thomas has been mediocre and the team is switching to a 3-4 anyway where he'd have to move out to DE to start. He's certainly not a starting NT in the NFL, can't even hold his position strong as a 4-3 DT and NO pressure up the middle, even when he's not double-teamed.

So, getting some backup LBs like Spencer Larsen and Wesley Woodyard, and a project safety like Barrett makes this draft a Pyrrhic Victory. Shanahan won the draft battle but lost the war, and his job!

Sad to see the defense deteriorate so far that even great drafting on offense the last few years: (Cutler, Sheffler, Clady, Harris, Kuper, Marshall, Royal -- all A+ players) couldn't save him.

That’s all true, to an extent, but what exactly would you rather the Broncos had done about it?

With Ted aboard, they butchered most of the early drafts of this decade. They were unable to add defenders via FA.

Then the Goodmans come along and blow the roof off with their offensive-minded 2006 draft. We still need defenders so we add some more via trade and FA, and butcher those too.

So we try to draft some defenders, and screw that up, but the one offensive pick is another A+.

So then we say, “Screw it, draft whoever you want, Goodmans” and they add a couple of Pro-Bowlers on the first day on offense, then stack the defensive roster with quality backups with starting potential, and slide a couple of offensive ones in there too.

And now you’re saying that’s not good enough? That they should have fixed the defense too?

It’s only been 3 years since we pulled our heads outta our asses and started drafting like maniacs. In that time the Goodman-drafts have added the following to our starting lineup on offense:

QB – Pro-Bowler
WR – Pro-Bowler
TE – starter, led TEs in YPC last year
OG – starter, potential Pro-Bowler
RT – starter, potential Pro-Bowler
LT – Future Pro-Bowler and All-Pro
WR – starter, potential Pro-Bowler
RB – starter, or at least part of the equation

And we have another OG/C waiting in the wings who might be a starter as soon as next year.

That’s NINE offensive starters added via the draft in 3 years – and not just starters, but GOOD starters, who get Pro Bowl votes and could be around for the next several years as the nucleus of a tremendous offense. So obviously our defense wasn’t the only thing that needed re-building. With Rod Smith, Tom Nalen and Matt Lepsis retiring, our offense needed some rejuvenating. With Plummer and Foster and Bell busting out, we needed some replacements.

We changed our QB, RB, C, both tackles, HOF WR, pass-catching TE, and replaced all of them with potentially a better sum of parts without breathing too hard. In what universe is that not a great 3 years?

I have my own issues with the 07 draft, and our failures on defense, but c’mon man. At some point complaining about the last 3 drafts is like griping that your wallet is too small for your 50s and your diamond shoes are too tight.

Do we need to start adding quality defenders? Yes.

We have 8 to 9 of our starting spots locked down on offense. I think over-drafting offense would be hard now. We could use a RB, maybe a center. Maybe a slot receiver, if Alridge can’t do it, but we don’t know that he can’t yet, so maybe we got THAT already too.

Defense should be priority, but if we’d gone all defense the last few years we wouldn’t have 2 A+ tackles, a Pro-Bowl QB and WR, and all the rest.

And it’s possible that we wouldn’t have the same caliber of defenders either. Cutler and Marshall have to be top-5 players from their draft now, right? Scheff and Kuper are also “first rounders” when you look at production. We got 4 first-round talents out of that draft just on offense, added another in Harris (how many teams would kill to have a Harris to put with Clady?) and right now 2 more top-10 players in Clady and Royal.

The odds against that are…large. And the odds of getting the same level of defensive talent are outrageous.

So I’m not looking that gift horse in the mouth. Our D sucks, but we have a chance to change that now, and a young, killer offense already prepped and ready to go.

I guess I can’t get too angry at the Goodmans for only giving me an entire offense for the price of a few draftpicks.

~G

[BigDaddyBronco]

Now let's hope the Goodmans can have a good defensive draft.

[G_Money]

If not, then we need to draft every great offensive player again and start dealing them off to teams that have defensive assets but suck at drafting offense.

Draft the scarce resource and then put it out there to the highest bidder.

Probably after we let them play some to show how awesome they are. ;)

~G

[lex]

I still think it depends on who we add in the running game.

McD isn’t the one in love with Torain, so I wouldn’t count on him.

If we add Greene, or Jennings, or Brown, or Ringer, then yeah, I think we’ll run it.

If for whatever reason we go into battle next year with Hall and Young as our tailbacks, then we’re definitely putting the ball in the hands of the Pro-Bowl receiving corps and QB.

Here’s hoping Hillis returns at 100% and can tote the rock some for us, and we get another good back, FA or draft, to pair with him.

Balance is good.

~G

Or Wells at 12.

[Lonestar]

Now let's hope the Goodmans can have a good defensive draft.


If not, then we need to draft every great offensive player again and start dealing them off to teams that have defensive assets but suck at drafting offense.

Draft the scarce resource and then put it out there to the highest bidder.

Probably after we let them play some to show how awesome they are. ;)

~G

funny I was thinking just these things as I was reading the posts above them..

I think the Goodman's can find talent any where but did not cause mikey is an OC at heart.. ever seen one that did not think they can win it all only on O??

They just needed direction..

[NameUsedBefore]

funny I was thinking just these things as I was reading the posts above them..

I think the Goodman's can find talent any where but did not cause mikey is an OC at heart.. ever seen one that did not think they can win it all only on O??

They just needed direction..

Was Mike Shanahan behind the Cutler grab? I think so, it was brilliant whoever did it.

But Shanahan really seemed to have a problem with getting caught up on players he just had to have. Kinda the same way some players just magically stuck around on the team for years although they were clearly expendable. Really screwed us over for awhile, IMO.

[Lonestar]

Was Mike Shanahan behind the Cutler grab? I think so, it was brilliant whoever did it.

But Shanahan really seemed to have a problem with getting caught up on players he just had to have. Kinda the same way some players just magically stuck around on the team for years although they were clearly expendable. Really screwed us over for awhile, IMO.

while Jay was clearly approved by mikey and now I have zero issues with it.. I really think humdinger had a lot to do with it..

They were really watching him in TEN and living across the city from him I'll bet he saw a lot of his games and even more film..

Now I;m not saying that Goodman's did not have input but mikey being an ex roommate of hummer and hummer knowing how much his boss (Jeff) liked the kid.. what do you think happened..

Look at the Offense that was designed for him prior to the season.. clearly not with Jake in mind.. for that matter out OLINE either.. but that was pure drop back passer JAY..

And yes mikey did have alot of Klingon's around till their 3rd training camp, IMO desperately trying to make them work..

[Broncospsycho77]

One thing that I will miss about Shanahan is the value of character on his team. I don't know how McDaniels will carry that on, but Mike never took shit from any player who put themselves over the team (and especially his own will).

Mr. Clinton Portis may remember.

And Shanahan's desire to have these character guys usually distinguished his picks in the later rounds, especially the running-back-of-the-year guys. Guys with huge chips on their shoulders and something to prove. Only problem with that is that these guys typically don't have the talent or endurance to last more than a season at peak performance before burning out. You can only run on sheer will before running flat out of steam. Ask R. Drones, O. Gary, and M. Bell about their long tenures in the orange and blue. High character for as long as they can muster, but then their deficient talents eventually hold them back, or they take their egos and sign somewhere else for more $$$.

Rod Smith is an exception that proves the rule. The jury may still be out on Peyton Hillis, and Eddie Royal is another guy, though he has first round talent to along with his pint-sized ego.

Shanahan's no-tolerance policy for egomaniacs always kept the organization clean.

[Ziggy]

while Jay was clearly approved by mikey and now I have zero issues with it.. I really think humdinger had a lot to do with it..

They were really watching him in TEN and living across the city from him I'll bet he saw a lot of his games and even more film..

Now I;m not saying that Goodman's did not have input but mikey being an ex roommate of hummer and hummer knowing how much his boss (Jeff) liked the kid.. what do you think happened..

Look at the Offense that was designed for him prior to the season.. clearly not with Jake in mind.. for that matter out OLINE either.. but that was pure drop back passer JAY..

And yes mikey did have alot of Klingon's around till their 3rd training camp, IMO desperately trying to make them work..


JR, you have a ton of football acumen, but does nearly every one of your posts have to turn into a Mike Shanahan hate post? Just a formal plea here asking you to move on and talk about the Broncos without trying to find a way to slam Shanahan at every turn. We have our 2 Super Bowl trophies, and he is no longer with the Denver Broncos organization. I won't turn this thread into another debate about Shanahan, and this is the last time I'll mention it to you. What do you say?

[oobehr]

Too bad Shanahan didn't use that policy when deciding to go with Travis Henry.

[G_Money]

One thing that I will miss about Shanahan is the value of character on his team. I don't know how McDaniels will carry that on, but Mike never took shit from any player who put themselves over the team (and especially his own will).

Mr. Clinton Portis may remember.

And Shanahan's desire to have these character guys usually distinguished his picks in the later rounds, especially the running-back-of-the-year guys. Guys with huge chips on their shoulders and something to prove. Only problem with that is that these guys typically don't have the talent or endurance to last more than a season at peak performance before burning out. You can only run on sheer will before running flat out of steam. Ask R. Drones, O. Gary, and M. Bell about their long tenures in the orange and blue. High character for as long as they can muster, but then their deficient talents eventually hold them back, or they take their egos and sign somewhere else for more $$$.

Rod Smith is an exception that proves the rule. The jury may still be out on Peyton Hillis, and Eddie Royal is another guy, though he has first round talent to along with his pint-sized ego.

Shanahan's no-tolerance policy for egomaniacs always kept the organization clean.

No offense man, but you're hallucinating. ;)

We had DUI guys and wife-beaters and drug offenders and roid users and party-punchers and gun-wavers and IHOP-brawlers...

The only times guys got thrown out was when they made Shanny look bad. That's the ticket out. Not being an IHOP-brawler, but being an idiot who mouthed off to Shanahan, so in that sense yes, it was "no egomaniacs needed other than the one in charge" - but the number of players we added who DID mouth off to Shanahan and get fired was enormous. For a guy who didn't put up with selfish egomaniacs he sure did hire a bunch.

Shanny didn't run an especially clean program. He cut ties quickly, sure - and then got another thug in here, or an injury reclamation project that couldn't actually be reclaimed.

You can't run an NFL team full of choir boys. There just aren't enough talented choir boys to go around.

So every team is gonna have a reckless element on it. Some teams force them into line with locker rooms full of leaders that won't take crap.

Some just fire all the high-priced free agents every year when they don't work out and go find new ones to blow cash on.

We were the latter, not the former.

We didn't start drafting specifically for character again until this past year. After one too many Travis Henrys, we FINALLY decided that maybe character did matter after all and that just wishing guys would toe the line didn't actually make em do it.

Or maybe Shanahan decided that good character guys wouldn't give him so much lip.

Either way, I was glad to see the shift, but it came too late for Shanny.

~G

[Lonestar]

JR, you have a ton of football acumen, but does nearly every one of your posts have to turn into a Mike Shanahan hate post? Just a formal plea here asking you to move on and talk about the Broncos without trying to find a way to slam Shanahan at every turn. We have our 2 Super Bowl trophies, and he is no longer with the Denver Broncos organization. I won't turn this thread into another debate about Shanahan, and this is the last time I'll mention it to you. What do you say?

The only negative I had in that was the hangers on and that as not their fault..

I think everyone will agree that he was surrounded by his appointed yes men..

Sorry you perceived the post as a bash mikey.. I thought it was very positive considering..

please enlighten me

[tomjonesrocks]

T
5) Torain. Grade: D+. Okay seriously - Torain? You had the choice between, well, CHOICE and Torain and you decided to take Williams in the 4th and Torain here? He's only played like 18 months of real football, being a Juco guy before that. And then he ripped his foot up something fierce. He's a huge kid, with a lot of interesting measurables that he doesn't include in his actual running style. In our offense his patience and waiting for the play to develop will be good, and he can hit a hole...but IIRC he can't block. He's a definite project, and as a project he's a guy we'd work back into that two-headed running monster of the Bells. Torain is Mike Bell and Young is Tatum Bell.

Are we still playing that game? Really? *sighs*

We're hoping that Torain could be Mike Anderson, but he has to learn how to block first, and how to really get into the turf when he runs. He runs too lightly for his size.

Still, every stupid back that comes here looks at least good, and I'm sure Torain will be no exception. Congrats on the extension of your pro career, Ryan - you're a lucky stiff. I hope you learn like they think you can - you've definitely got the growth left to get, anyway. And there's definitely potential there...I just don't like our chances of getting it out of you, I guess. Time to cross the fingers and hope.

Results Grade: Injury incomplete. I really want to give a D here, but I should be nice. None of his injury problems relate to his foot injury. Busting an elbow in a freak tackling injury and then blowing out a knee halfway through his first game are not foreseeable injuries….except the guy already had injury concerns. *sigh* Not getting Tashard Choice in the 4th is still making me bitter, I think. I’d really like to stop picking up the leftovers at RB, though. I don’t want a first-rounder, but a top-5 talent would sure be sweet. In the meantime, I guess I can hope that Ryan comes back from his third catastrophic injury in 2 year with no issues whatsoever and stays healthy and productive for a long time.

I’d also like a pony, while we’re wishing for things…

Go ahead and give Torain that "D", G -- it feels good to do it.

Great draft--but after seeing Choice in Dallas--can you imagine Choice and Hillis in our backfield now?

As for Torain, we had to wait half the season on pins-and-needles for a half-game of modestly decent production before going on IR. I really think Torain's done here. At least I'm done with him.

Had we drafted Choice Hillis wouldn't have been given the opportunity to shine I suppose, as Choice would have quickly become our starter. Nevertheless...

Will make a b-line to read your assessment after the upcoming draft--impressive stuff.

[CoachChaz]

Only problem is we took Jack Williams where we could have taken Choice. Would Choice have been a better option? Of course, but leaving hindsight out of the equation, I think we had more questions in Bly and Paymah than we did in Young/Hall at the time.

[G_Money]

Only problem is we took Jack Williams where we could have taken Choice. Would Choice have been a better option? Of course, but leaving hindsight out of the equation, I think we had more questions in Bly and Paymah than we did in Young/Hall at the time.

It wasn't hindsight when I questioned it. ;)

I understand we had secondary concerns, but we still had Foxy on the team at the time. He acquitted himself well for the Falcons once we dumped him, and Jack still barely saw the field even with injuries to Champ and Bly and Paymah's continuing ineptitude.

If I'm looking for potential-starting RB (which we obviously were, because that's what Shanahan claimed he saw in Torain) or nickel-back with an okay shot at being a starting corner (which I already have on the roster in Foxy) then it's hard for me to get behind the reasoning.

Knowing Foxworth will be gone the next year might be a reason to get a head-start on the problem. Knowing what Bly costs as well could play into it.

But dumping Foxworth to add his newly-drafted clone brother and passing over Choice in the process just hurts my head.

I'm just hopeful that a new approach at CB might stop playing to Jack's weaknesses and more into his strengths so we can develop him into a starter. He's not necessarily a bad player (I mean, Champ looks mediocre in Slowik's D)- he's just gonna cost me another pick that we're gonna use to try to get a starting RB in here.

And I'm tired of Dallas picking up backs that would tear it up for us. First Barber, now Choice?

No more. :tsk:

~G

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Only problem is we took Jack Williams where we could have taken Choice. Would Choice have been a better option? Of course, but leaving hindsight out of the equation, I think we had more questions in Bly and Paymah than we did in Young/Hall at the time.

Orlando Scandrick would be the other part of that equation. I wasn't "pro-Choice"...hahahaha...I made a funny...but I was pro-Scandrick. He was picked in round 5...4 selections AFTER we took Torain. THAT is what pissed me the hell off. Scandrick projected well at both Safety and CB and we take Jack friggin Williams???

[CoachChaz]

I think Jack will be just fine. I liked the pick and immediately adopted him. I could end up being wrong, but it wont be the first time.

I can see being happier with Scandrick/Choice over Williams/Torain, but...the guys Dallas drafted actually got playing time. Ours didnt. So, I'll hold off on my assess ment of who made the better choices until I see the final package.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I agree w/ that, but ya do have to admit that the Choice/Torain part of the equation goes clearly to Dallas.

[Northman]

I agree w/ that, but ya do have to admit that the Choice/Torain part of the equation goes clearly to Dallas.

Hard to say. Torain looked good until he got injured. Choice has done great as well but he has had a lot more playing time than Torain.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

and the biggest thing against Torain is his history of injuries.

[CoachChaz]

I agree the injury history should have played a role in the decision making, but in a full season, the difference between the two is probably more cloudy.

Choice was brought in to be a 3rd down back. Torain was drafted to be THE MAN

[G_Money]

Choice was injured his senior year too, so injury history between them isn’t one-sided. Choice had a knee injury that kept him out of action for a few weeks.

But I still think Choice could have been THE MAN here. He didn’t need to be a 3rd down back, the Cowboys just have a Pro-Bowler and a 1st round pick ahead of him.

He was icing on the cake for their running attack, and when he had to start for them due to injury he did so very well.

Hopefully Torain comes back, runs for a few thousand yards in the next few years and proves he was a good pick after all.

~G

[CoachChaz]

I just dont know that there was anything obvious at the time that would have stated that Choice would be the better...choice.

[G_Money]

:lol: Well on MY board there was a huge difference. Why don’t pro teams use my board? Then their moves would make sense to me, geez…

~G

[Lonestar]

Choice was injured his senior year too, so injury history between them isn’t one-sided. Choice had a knee injury that kept him out of action for a few weeks.

But I still think Choice could have been THE MAN here. He didn’t need to be a 3rd down back, the Cowboys just have a Pro-Bowler and a 1st round pick ahead of him.

He was icing on the cake for their running attack, and when he had to start for them due to injury he did so very well.

Hopefully Torain comes back, runs for a few thousand yards in the next few years and proves he was a good pick after all.

~G


IMO good team with quality starters in all areas have the luxury of having spare parts on the shelve for when the starters get hurt or retire. Something the Broncos do not seem to have, quality starters across the boards..

[CoachChaz]

:lol: Well on MY board there was a huge difference. Why don’t pro teams use my board? Then their moves would make sense to me, geez…

~G

But we needed a back that could pick up the tough yards as well as the obvious ones. That being said...did the 5'10", 200 pound scatback make alot more sense than the 6/1", 225 pound bruiser?

[G_Money]

It depends what kind of runner you think Choice is, and what kind of runner you think Torain is.

Choice has a good stiff-arm and uses his free hand to fight off blocks, he runs with a low center of gravity, doesn’t shy from contact, and defenders usually go backward. He’s not a big back, but he doesn’t get lit up like a little back. He’s got good leg drive and while he won’t move a pile, he has excellent vision to see creases he can hit for a few positive yards. Is it better to move the pile, or find the crease so you don’t have to?

Torian is a big back, but he doesn’t really run like a big back. He’s light on his feet and lightly into the turf – he doesn’t generate a ton of leg drive from that bigger frame because he’s not really solidly planted in the playing field. Torain has decent vision and speed, but he won’t make a lot of guys miss or lower the boom on them when he gets to them. He just goes down.

He run more like Shaun Alexander than like a pounding back. He’s not like Shaun Alexander and falling down before the defender gets there, but he’s not Hillis either – he’s not giving better than he gets.

*shrugs* When I look at them I don’t see bruiser and scatback.

Choice has more grit than a scatback and Torain doesn’t have the heft and mean-streak yet to be a bruiser.

But like you said, if you’re looking at dimensions and not running style then you’d want a guy built more like Torain to be an every-down back.

~G

[Cugel]

That’s all true, to an extent, but what exactly would you rather the Broncos had done about it?

With Ted aboard, they butchered most of the early drafts of this decade. They were unable to add defenders via FA.

Then the Goodmans come along and blow the roof off with their offensive-minded 2006 draft. We still need defenders so we add some more via trade and FA, and butcher those too.

So we try to draft some defenders, and screw that up, but the one offensive pick is another A+.

So then we say, “Screw it, draft whoever you want, Goodmans” and they add a couple of Pro-Bowlers on the first day on offense, then stack the defensive roster with quality backups with starting potential, and slide a couple of offensive ones in there too.

And now you’re saying that’s not good enough? That they should have fixed the defense too?

It’s only been 3 years since we pulled our heads outta our asses and started drafting like maniacs. In that time the Goodman-drafts have added the following to our starting lineup on offense:

QB – Pro-Bowler
WR – Pro-Bowler
TE – starter, led TEs in YPC last year
OG – starter, potential Pro-Bowler
RT – starter, potential Pro-Bowler
LT – Future Pro-Bowler and All-Pro
WR – starter, potential Pro-Bowler
RB – starter, or at least part of the equation

And we have another OG/C waiting in the wings who might be a starter as soon as next year.

That’s NINE offensive starters added via the draft in 3 years – and not just starters, but GOOD starters, who get Pro Bowl votes and could be around for the next several years as the nucleus of a tremendous offense. So obviously our defense wasn’t the only thing that needed re-building. With Rod Smith, Tom Nalen and Matt Lepsis retiring, our offense needed some rejuvenating. With Plummer and Foster and Bell busting out, we needed some replacements.

We changed our QB, RB, C, both tackles, HOF WR, pass-catching TE, and replaced all of them with potentially a better sum of parts without breathing too hard. In what universe is that not a great 3 years?

I have my own issues with the 07 draft, and our failures on defense, but c’mon man. At some point complaining about the last 3 drafts is like griping that your wallet is too small for your 50s and your diamond shoes are too tight.

Do we need to start adding quality defenders? Yes.

We have 8 to 9 of our starting spots locked down on offense. I think over-drafting offense would be hard now. We could use a RB, maybe a center. Maybe a slot receiver, if Alridge can’t do it, but we don’t know that he can’t yet, so maybe we got THAT already too.

Defense should be priority, but if we’d gone all defense the last few years we wouldn’t have 2 A+ tackles, a Pro-Bowl QB and WR, and all the rest.

And it’s possible that we wouldn’t have the same caliber of defenders either. Cutler and Marshall have to be top-5 players from their draft now, right? Scheff and Kuper are also “first rounders” when you look at production. We got 4 first-round talents out of that draft just on offense, added another in Harris (how many teams would kill to have a Harris to put with Clady?) and right now 2 more top-10 players in Clady and Royal.

The odds against that are…large. And the odds of getting the same level of defensive talent are outrageous.

So I’m not looking that gift horse in the mouth. Our D sucks, but we have a chance to change that now, and a young, killer offense already prepped and ready to go.

I guess I can’t get too angry at the Goodmans for only giving me an entire offense for the price of a few draftpicks.

~G

I'm not angry at Goodman at all! I just hope he can spot defensive talent with the same degree of accuracy he did Offensive talent!After all, Goodman only did what Shanahan said. Shanny was certain that if he could just hold the defense together with duct-tape he could build a high-powered offense around Cutler similar to the super-star offense he had with John Elway that won 2 SBs.

Only, it didn't work. Shanahan never caught up to the fact that you can't buy a defense via FA any more. You have to be patient and draft it. In the first 2 rounds. Look at the Ravens. They keep adding defensive linemen like Haloti Ngata almost every year, then pick up Trevor Pryce via FA and pay him $10 million.

Result? He's happily manning the DE position for the Ravens and had 3 pretty good year for a player they were sure was washed up.

Instead Shanny brought in such losers as Antwon Burton, Amon Gordon, Jimmy Kennedy, Sam Adams, Alvin McKinley and tried to use undrafted FAs like Kenny Peterson and Josh Mallard to man his defensive line.

That's just insane. This isn't 1997 when teams would let players like DE Neil Smith go via FA. Today Smith would be franchised and if he hit the FA market, some team would give him $30 million guaranteed. The Broncos would have to fight like hell and overpay to sign him.

And a guy like LT Gary Zimmerman would NEVER become a FA. Your franchise LT? Teams just don't let them get away.

Shanahan never seemed to wrap his mind around that fact that the NFL had changed. He got used to being able to find amazing players in FA so he didn't have to draft them all.

Shanahan inherited some players, signed a bunch of FAs and got lucky with Terrell Davis. He never built a championship via the draft and didn't seem to think that was important.

[Ziggy]

I'm not angry at Goodman at all! I just hope he can spot defensive talent with the same degree of accuracy he did Offensive talent!After all, Goodman only did what Shanahan said. Shanny was certain that if he could just hold the defense together with duct-tape he could build a high-powered offense around Cutler similar to the super-star offense he had with John Elway that won 2 SBs.

Only, it didn't work. Shanahan never caught up to the fact that you can't buy a defense via FA any more. You have to be patient and draft it. In the first 2 rounds. Look at the Ravens. They keep adding defensive linemen like Haloti Ngata almost every year, then pick up Trevor Pryce via FA and pay him $10 million.

Result? He's happily manning the DE position for the Ravens and had 3 pretty good year for a player they were sure was washed up.

Instead Shanny brought in such losers as Antwon Burton, Amon Gordon, Jimmy Kennedy, Sam Adams, Alvin McKinley and tried to use undrafted FAs like Kenny Peterson and Josh Mallard to man his defensive line.

That's just insane. This isn't 1997 when teams would let players like DE Neil Smith go via FA. Today Smith would be franchised and if he hit the FA market, some team would give him $30 million guaranteed. The Broncos would have to fight like hell and overpay to sign him.

And a guy like LT Gary Zimmerman would NEVER become a FA. Your franchise LT? Teams just don't let them get away.
Shanahan never seemed to wrap his mind around that fact that the NFL had changed. He got used to being able to find amazing players in FA so he didn't have to draft them all.

Shanahan inherited some players, signed a bunch of FAs and got lucky with Terrell Davis. He never built a championship via the draft and didn't seem to think that was important.

Zimmerman wasn't a FA. We traded a 1st, 2nd, and 6th round pick for him. He was originally drafted by the Giants in the supplemental draft and traded to Minnesota for 2 2nds.

[Lonestar]

I'm not angry at Goodman at all! I just hope he can spot defensive talent with the same degree of accuracy he did Offensive talent!After all, Goodman only did what Shanahan said. Shanny was certain that if he could just hold the defense together with duct-tape he could build a high-powered offense around Cutler similar to the super-star offense he had with John Elway that won 2 SBs.

Only, it didn't work. Shanahan never caught up to the fact that you can't buy a defense via FA any more. You have to be patient and draft it. In the first 2 rounds. Look at the Ravens. They keep adding defensive linemen like Haloti Ngata almost every year, then pick up Trevor Pryce via FA and pay him $10 million.

Result? He's happily manning the DE position for the Ravens and had 3 pretty good year for a player they were sure was washed up.

Instead Shanny brought in such losers as Antwon Burton, Amon Gordon, Jimmy Kennedy, Sam Adams, Alvin McKinley and tried to use undrafted FAs like Kenny Peterson and Josh Mallard to man his defensive line.

That's just insane. This isn't 1997 when teams would let players like DE Neil Smith go via FA. Today Smith would be franchised and if he hit the FA market, some team would give him $30 million guaranteed. The Broncos would have to fight like hell and overpay to sign him.

And a guy like LT Gary Zimmerman would NEVER become a FA. Your franchise LT? Teams just don't let them get away.

Shanahan never seemed to wrap his mind around that fact that the NFL had changed. He got used to being able to find amazing players in FA so he didn't have to draft them all.

Shanahan inherited some players, signed a bunch of FAs and got lucky with Terrell Davis. He never built a championship via the draft and didn't seem to think that was important.

about the only thing I found lacking was the Brownco fiasco including the coach that came with them.. Or more aptly put, he came and then conned mikey into doing a line change.. little did mikey know you only do them in hockey..

[Lonestar]

Zimmerman wasn't a FA. We traded a 1st, 2nd, and 6th round pick for him. He was originally drafted by the Giants in the supplemental draft and traded to Minnesota for 2 2nds.

Also seem to remember he was here before mikey showed up..

[Ziggy]

Also seem to remember he was here before mikey showed up..

Yes he was.

[Lonestar]

Yes he was.

not sure if he was Wade or danny pickup..

perhaps someone can tell us.. I do remember that we had really lousy draft choice in 1994 nothing before a 4th IIRC so I tend to believe it was Wade but never thought he was all the bright..

[Ziggy]

not sure if he was Wade or danny pickup..

perhaps someone can tell us.. I do remember that we had really lousy draft choice in 1994 nothing before a 4th IIRC so I tend to believe it was Wade but never thought he was all the bright..

I was thinking that he was a Bob Ferguson pickup, but I may be wrong.

[Ziggy]

Cugel, while I agree that a team should be built mainly through the draft and supplemented with FA, there are top notch free agents on the market every year. Do teams have to pay for them? Yes. Teams have to pay top dollar to sign any great plaers to contracts, including thier own. Look at what the top draft picks are getting paid. It's the nature of the NFL now. Here are list of some of the better players that have been available on the free agent market just over the past 3 years. Many are considered franchise type players:

Drew Brees
Terrell Owens
Steve Hutchinson
Larry Allen
Leonard Davis
Nate Clements
Michael Turner
Asante Samuel
Plaxico Burress

Franchise players are still available in the FA market. The price you have to pay for them is right on par with the price you have to pay unproven, high draft picks. Every facet of personnel in the NFL is a gamble these days. Salaries are just too high to make many mistakes and be successful. I'll say it again. Teams are better off building through the draft and supplementing with FA's. The top teams do this. Pittsburgh, New England, Indy etc. etc.

[Lonestar]

I was thinking that he was a Bob Ferguson pickup, but I may be wrong.

could be but I was thinking UNDER which HC..

[Lonestar]

Cugel, while I agree that a team should be built mainly through the draft and supplemented with FA, there are top notch free agents on the market every year. Do teams have to pay for them? Yes. Teams have to pay top dollar to sign any great plaers to contracts, including thier own. Look at what the top draft picks are getting paid. It's the nature of the NFL now. Here are list of some of the better players that have been available on the free agent market just over the past 3 years. Many are considered franchise type players:

Drew Brees
Terrell Owens
Steve Hutchinson
Larry Allen
Leonard Davis
Nate Clements
Michael Turner
Asante Samuel
Plaxico Burress

Franchise players are still available in the FA market. The price you have to pay for them is right on par with the price you have to pay unproven, high draft picks. Every facet of personnel in the NFL is a gamble these days. Salaries are just too high to make many mistakes and be successful. I'll say it again. Teams are better off building through the draft and supplementing with FA's. The top teams do this. Pittsburgh, New England, Indy etc. etc.

I see and agree with your logic..

The only downside is many of them are not going to be around for 10+ years..

Like blue chip rookie might be..

We have until 2006 been living off of FA and supplementing with a draft choice every other year.. Pat changed that all around last year with his building via the daft remark..

[Cugel]

Cugel, while I agree that a team should be built mainly through the draft and supplemented with FA, there are top notch free agents on the market every year. Do teams have to pay for them? Yes. Teams have to pay top dollar to sign any great plaers to contracts, including thier own. Look at what the top draft picks are getting paid. It's the nature of the NFL now. Here are list of some of the better players that have been available on the free agent market just over the past 3 years. Many are considered franchise type players:

Drew Brees
Terrell Owens
Steve Hutchinson
Larry Allen
Leonard Davis
Nate Clements
Michael Turner
Asante Samuel
Plaxico Burress

Franchise players are still available in the FA market. The price you have to pay for them is right on par with the price you have to pay unproven, high draft picks. Every facet of personnel in the NFL is a gamble these days. Salaries are just too high to make many mistakes and be successful. I'll say it again. Teams are better off building through the draft and supplementing with FA's. The top teams do this. Pittsburgh, New England, Indy etc. etc.

First of all, I have to say that if the Broncos wind up with your mock draft, I'd be THRILLED! :laugh:

Second though, rookies are MUCH cheaper than FAs. If you look at a team like the Patriots they have proven the model for how you handle the draft versus FA. They have a specially severe problem because they have been a highly successful franchise since 2001 and have won a pile of SBs. This means that not only do teams hire their assistant coaches, but they draft near the bottom of every round and every time they win a championship all their key players all think "payday!"

Even role players for a SB team think they deserve a raise! If you tried to satisfy everybody, then you wind up like the Tennessee Titans ex-SB team, blown up by the salary cap with TONS of dead cap-space owing to guys who aren't even on the roster any more.

The Pats have handled this by identifying key players on offense and defense they will keep and then finding role players via smart drafting (we'll see how well they do now without Scott Pioli), and a smattering of FAs like raisins on top.

On defense they have Vince Wilfork and Richard Seymour and Teddy Bruschi. On offense, they have Tom Brady, Logan Mankins and Todd Lyte. These guys they pay whatever it takes to keep.

The rest of their team can be lost via FA like Asante Samuel when their contracts are up, and they have guys ready to step in who were DRAFTED. They add a few high-priced FAs like Randy Moss and Adelius Thomas but they are the EXCEPTION rather than the rule.

Unlike Denver they aren't desperately trying to assemble the core of their team via FA every year. That flat doesn't work!

So, the core starting offense and defense MUST be assembled via the DRAFT in order for a team to stay within the salary cap.

FAs are MORE expensive than rookies. For instance, Jarvis Moss (as the #17 pick of the 1st round) is making $2.5 million a year, which is chicken feed compared with what say Adelius Thomas or Nate Clements got via FA or what Julius Peppers will command this year if he becomes a FA (at least $10 million guaranteed for this season and probably something like $20+ million guaranteed over the full contract). Trevor Pryce was due about $10 million when he was cut and went to the Ravens. They paid it gladly, but that's a LOT of money).

Adelius Thomas got the following:

• Signing bonus: $12 million in 2007.

• Option bonus: $8 million payable in 2008, applied for cap reasons in equal $2 million increments in 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011.

• Salaries: $900,000 in '07, $900,000 in '08, $1.9 million in '09, $4.9 million in '10 and $5.9 million in '11.

• Workout bonuses: $107,000 annually if he participates in the Patriots' offseason workout program in Foxboro.

• Cap numbers: In succession, beginning this year, $3.4 million, $5.4 million, $6.4 million, $9.4 million, $10.4 million. [SI.com]

So, in his first year he got $21 million guaranteed!

Now of course, Jarvis Moss isn't worth $2.5 million a year, unless you're talking about paying him 2.5 million diet bottle-caps, but let's pretend he was like a young Dwight Freeney -- a monster pass-rusher (I know it's a wild stretch). He'd STILL be making $2.5 million a year on his rookie contract until it expired, no more.

So rookies are CHEAP compared with FAs! Nate Clements got just an insane contract -- 8 years, $80 million, with $22 million guaranteed. NO rookie, including the #1 draft pick Jake Long, gets that (he got $57 million with $30 million guaranteed -- so he got $8 million MORE in guarantees, but the overall contract was almost $30 million LESS, and that was a year later than Clements contract, and he's a LOT younger, so he's less of an injury risk than a 28 year old player)!

That's how you keep the team budget in line. That's why the draft is so important and why the draft failures of the past years finally got Shanny fired. He was in cap hell every single year because he'd bring in high-priced FAs because he couldn't find decent starting defensive players via the draft.

Then they'd go bust leaving a big cap hit on the budget (think Dale Carter, Daryl Gardner). Pat Bowlen finally got sick of it a couple of years ago and laid down the law to Shanny. So, Shanny suddenly got religion about relying on the draft, but it was too late. His shit-poor drafting from 2001-05 caught up with him, leaving his team without ANY starters from about 5 drafts in a row.

So, it was "Hit the road Jack! And don't you come back no more, no more, no more, no more! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8Tiz6INF7I)" :coffee:

[Cugel]

I see and agree with your logic..

The only downside is many of them are not going to be around for 10+ years..

Like blue chip rookie might be..

We have until 2006 been living off of FA and supplementing with a draft choice every other year.. Pat changed that all around last year with his building via the daft remark..

While I was writing my post you came in and said the same thing, only shorter. I hate that! :laugh:

[Ziggy]

You bring up some great points Cugel, and while being a big Shanahan fan, I have not defended many of his GM moves in recent years. What I said in my post was look at what top draft picks are getting paid. I should have been more clear and said top 5 draft picks. The difference between Clements and Long is that Clements was a proven commodity and the 49'ers willingly paid him knowing what his game was in the NFL. If Jake Long had turned out to be a bust, a chunk of the Dolphins salary cap would have been wasted with a guy that they paid before he ever played a down in the NFL.

I love the NFL draft, but they need to put in a rookie salary structure similar to that of the NBA's. Pittsburgh, New England, the Giants, and teams like that can build through the draft because they draft wisely. Denver has shown the ability to do the same over the past few drafts. I hope that the Goodmans can keep it up. If they can, we can build a strong franchise for many years to come.

I think that we're on the same page as far as needing to build through the draft and supplementing with FA. It only works if you draft well though.

[Ziggy]

His shit-poor drafting from 2001-05 caught up with him, leaving his team without ANY starters from about 5 drafts in a row.



Not quite true. While the Broncos did have the worst drafts in the NFL between 2001-05, DJ WIlliams was drafted and is a starter on this team.

[CoachChaz]

I think the key to it all is having enough success to stay out of the top 10-15 picks...even the top 20 if you can. That way, you have players available that have a lower risk factor, warrant less money and are probably just as good as the players at the top of the board.

Pittsburgh, NE, NYG, Indy

These 4 teams combined have 6 picks in the last 5 years in the top 15 and only 15 total top 15 picks in the last 10 years.

[Cugel]

I think the key to it all is having enough success to stay out of the top 10-15 picks...even the top 20 if you can. That way, you have players available that have a lower risk factor, warrant less money and are probably just as good as the players at the top of the board.

Pittsburgh, NE, NYG, Indy

These 4 teams combined have 6 picks in the last 5 years in the top 15 and only 15 total top 15 picks in the last 10 years.

Well, you certainly don't want to be drafting in the top 10 every year like the Lions! :laugh:

But, the Patriots have some very high draft picks on their team. Richard Seymour was a top 10 pick. In 2008, despite losing a 1st round pick due to cheating, the Patriots still had S.F.'s top 10 draft pick which they used to take Jerod Meyo another brilliant choice who will be a stalwart on that defense for years.

Vince Wilfork was around #17 I think and so was Joseph Addai, and of course both Adelius Thomas and Randy Moss were top 10 draft picks whom they got via FA.

Not all the Patriots choices were 6th rounders like Tom Brady.

In fact, the ideal way to be successful is to have some key players who were top 10 draft picks and then to take a bunch of solid role players later in the first and second rounds.

It's almost impossible to draft a franchise QB after the first 15-18 picks. A lot of teams screwed up by letting Joe Flacco fall to the Ravens at #18. But, in 2006 the top 3 QBs were all taken by #12.

DL are also drafted very highly and you usually have to have a top 12-15 draft pick to get one.

In addition to #1 picks like Julius Peppers, 5 of the top 8 picks last year were DL. Now, Glenn Dorsey, Chris Long and Sedrick Ellis prove worth it? Maybe, but if you want an elite player like that you probably have to either wait years and then pay them $30 million in FA or else draft them in the top 10.

OL and DL are tough to draft unless you use a top pick. OL are even worse, because teams draft their franchise LT and then keep him for the next 10 years. When Steve Hutchinson left via FA it was a big deal and created a lot of bad blood in Seattle. Stuff like that just doesn't happen. So, if you want an elite OL or DL you have to draft them high these days!

And that's a trend that will only get worse in the future. Watch this year as about 4 or 5 OL get taken in the top 10. Last year it was DL.

[Lonestar]

Not quite true. While the Broncos did have the worst drafts in the NFL between 2001-05, DJ WIlliams was drafted and is a starter on this team.


but out of the 20 or so picks not much came out of them.. go bakc and look at all of mikeys picks from day one and see if you even remebr most of them..

Outside of a few LB, RB and OLINE type he was IMO long term total bust.. until 2006

2005 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
2 56 Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma State
3 76 Karl Paymah DB Washington State
3 97 Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
3 101 Maurice Clarett -- Ohio State
6 200 Chris Myers G Miami (Fla.)
7 239 Paul Ernster K Northern Arizona
2004 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 D.J. Williams OLB Miami (Fla.)
2 41 Tatum Bell RB Oklahoma State
2 54 Darius Watts WR Marshall
3 85 Jeremy LeSueur CB Michigan
5 152 Jeff Shoate CB San Diego State
6 171 Triandos Luke WR Alabama
6 190 Josh Sewell -- Nebraska
7 225 Matt Mauck QB Louisiana State
7 247 Brandon Miree RB Pittsburgh
7 250 Bradlee Van Pelt QB Colorado State
2003 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 20 George Foster T Georgia
2 51 Terry Pierce LB Kansas State
4 108 Quentin Griffin RB Oklahoma
4 114 Nick Eason DT Clemson
4 128 Bryant McNeal DE Clemson
5 157 Ben Claxton C Mississippi
5 158 Adrian Madise WR Texas Christian
6 194 Aaron Hunt -- Texas Tech
7 227 Clint Mitchell DE Florida
7 235 Ahmaad Galloway RB Alabama
2002 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 19 Ashley Lelie WR Hawaii
2 51 Clinton Portis RB Miami (Fla.)
3 96 Dorsett Davis DT Mississippi State
4 131 Sam Brandon DB Nevada-Las Vegas
5 144 Herb Haygood WR Michigan State
6 191 Jeb Putzier TE Boise State
7 228 Chris Young DB Georgia Tech
7 231 Monsanto Pope DT Virginia
2001 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Willie Middlebrooks CB Minnesota
2 51 Paul Toviessi DE Marshall
3 87 Reggie Hayward DE Iowa State
4 113 Ben Hamilton C Minnesota
4 120 Nick Harris P California
6 190 Kevin Kasper WR Iowa
2000 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 Deltha O'Neal CB California
2 40 Ian Gold LB Michigan
2 45 Kenoy Kennedy SAF Arkansas
3 70 Chris Cole WR Texas A&M
4 101 Jerry Johnson DT Florida State
4 112 Cooper Carlisle G Florida
5 154 Muneer Moore WR Richmond
6 189 Mike Anderson RB Utah
7 214 Jarious Jackson QB Notre Dame
7 246 Leroy Fields -- Jackson State
1999 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 31 Al Wilson MLB Tennessee
2 58 Montae Reagor DE Texas Tech
2 61 Lennie Friedman C Duke
3 67 Chris Watson CB Eastern Illinois
3 93 Travis McGriff WR Florida
4 127 Olandis Gary RB Georgia
5 158 David Bowens LB Western Illinois
5 167 Darwin Brown DB Texas Tech
6 179 Desmond Clark TE Wake Forest
6 204 Chad Plummer WR Cincinnati
7 218 Billy Miller WR USC
7 238 Justin Swift TE Kansas State
1998 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Marcus Nash WR Tennessee
2 61 Eric Brown SS Mississippi State
3 91 Brian Griese QB Michigan
4 122 Curtis Alexander -- Alabama
5 153 Chris Howard RB Michigan
7 200 Trey Teague T Tennessee
7 219 Nate Wayne LB Mississippi
1997 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 28 Trevor Pryce DT Clemson
3 67 Dan Neil G Texas
4 124 Cory Gilliard DB Ball State
1996 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 John Mobley OLB Kutztown
2 44 Tory James DB Louisiana State
3 65 Detron Smith RB Texas A&M
3 78 Mark Campbell DT Florida
4 100 Jeff Lewis QB Northern Arizona
4 122 Darrius Johnson DB Oklahoma
5 159 Patrick Jeffers WR Virginia
6 181 Tony Veland DB Nebraska
7 213 Leslie Ratliffe -- Tennessee
7 226 Chris Banks G Kansas
7 235 L.T. Levine -- Kansas
7 236 Brian Gragert -- Wyoming
1995 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
4 121 Jamie Brown T Florida A&M
4 124 Ken Brown LB Virginia Tech
5 146 Phil Yeboah-Kodie LB Penn State
6 182 Fritz Fequiere -- Iowa
6 196 Terrell Davis RB Georgia
7 218 Steve Russ LB Air Force
7 222 Byron Chamberlain WR Wayne State (Neb.)

yes there were a lot of gems late in the draft.. But those are not what you build your team on..

Almost no one other than OLINE, a few RB and most of his 1st day LB really made any impact for more than 2-3 years..

[MOtorboat]

but out of the 20 or so picks not much came out of them.. go bakc and look at all of mikeys picks from day one and see if you even remebr most of them..

Outside of a few LB, RB and OLINE type he was IMO long term total bust..

Have you made that comparison with the percentage of Day 1 picks that were busts for other teams yet?

Just for shits and giggles, do you know who the Patriots Day 1 picks were the year they took Brady?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Well, you certainly don't want to be drafting in the top 10 every year like the Lions! :laugh:

But, the Patriots have some very high draft picks on their team. Richard Seymour was a top 10 pick. In 2008, despite losing a 1st round pick due to cheating, the Patriots still had S.F.'s top 10 draft pick which they used to take Jerod Meyo another brilliant choice who will be a stalwart on that defense for years.

Vince Wilfork was around #17 I think and so was Joseph Addai, and of course both Adelius Thomas and Randy Moss were top 10 draft picks whom they got via FA.

Not all the Patriots choices were 6th rounders like Tom Brady.

In fact, the ideal way to be successful is to have some key players who were top 10 draft picks and then to take a bunch of solid role players later in the first and second rounds.

It's almost impossible to draft a franchise QB after the first 15-18 picks. A lot of teams screwed up by letting Joe Flacco fall to the Ravens at #18. But, in 2006 the top 3 QBs were all taken by #12.

DL are also drafted very highly and you usually have to have a top 12-15 draft pick to get one.

In addition to #1 picks like Julius Peppers, 5 of the top 8 picks last year were DL. Now, Glenn Dorsey, Chris Long and Sedrick Ellis prove worth it? Maybe, but if you want an elite player like that you probably have to either wait years and then pay them $30 million in FA or else draft them in the top 10.

OL and DL are tough to draft unless you use a top pick. OL are even worse, because teams draft their franchise LT and then keep him for the next 10 years. When Steve Hutchinson left via FA it was a big deal and created a lot of bad blood in Seattle. Stuff like that just doesn't happen. So, if you want an elite OL or DL you have to draft them high these days!

And that's a trend that will only get worse in the future. Watch this year as about 4 or 5 OL get taken in the top 10. Last year it was DL.

Wasn't Addai like #30 and didn't Moss fall out of the top 15?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Randy Moss was taken at #21 in 1998

Joseph Addai was #30 in 2006

[Lonestar]

Have you made that comparison with the percentage of Day 1 picks that were busts for other teams yet?

Just for shits and giggles, do you know who the Patriots Day 1 picks were the year they took Brady?


NO I have not nor do I care about other teams that is a road we have been down many times before.. I am a Bronco fans and have higher expectation from MY teams than do I for the Pats or bungals..

If you do not, then I'm OK with that..

I do know that mikey's drafts were some of the worst as rated by an independent site.. Sorry I do not keep those links handy but it was well reported on here over the past 13 months or so..

[Cugel]

Randy Moss was taken at #21 in 1998

Joseph Addai was #30 in 2006

I thought he was higher, and Randy Moss fell somewhat due to his off-field incidents.

But, you pretty much have to get lucky to get elite players outside the top of the 1st round. There are certainly plenty of examples: Brandon Marshall comes to mind. There were LOTS of WRs chosen before him -- but none of them were as good.

But, for franchise QBs and DL it's tough to get elite DL outside the first or second round, and if you want an elite DT who can rush the passer, it's even harder.

For example, in 2005 the 49ers took Alex Smith #1 overall. Bust.

But would it have been better if they took Jason Campbell or Charlie Frye? Aaron Rodgers is developing nicely and he was #24. So basically, even if you devoted a top pick to try and get a franchise QB that year, your chances were 1 in 3. And maybe if Rodgers had been taken by Cleveland he'd suck too. :coffee:

And in 2004 the top 2 DEs taken in the first round were Erasmus James and Marcus Spears. Ouch.

So, really it WOULD be better to sign all FAs -- IF there were no salary cap, to hinder you and if teams were all willing to let good young players go via FA like they were in 1997!

Today, most guys who hit FA are either old, declining in production and due a huge bonus, or else all three. (Ex: Trevor Pryce).

You can get production, but you CAN'T use this method to get the core of your team.

A 28 year old guy with an 8 year contract is NOT likely to play it out, which guarantees a big dead-space cap hit when he retires/is cut/ is traded in 3 years or so.

A 32 year old guy is just a bad investment almost no matter how good he is, unless you have a small bonus that is paid in 2 or 3 years at most.

So, rookies are YOUNG and that's the main value in them. They are likely, if successful, to play out that contract.

So, the money given Jake Long is a LOT better investment than the money given Nate Clements!

[MOtorboat]

I thought he was higher, and Randy Moss fell somewhat due to his off-field incidents.

But, you pretty much have to get lucky to get elite players outside the top of the 1st round. There are certainly plenty of examples: Brandon Marshall comes to mind. There were LOTS of WRs chosen before him -- but none of them were as good.

I'm just gonna stop you right there.

Al Wilson.

Period. End of discussion.

Nice try.