Article: Broncos' McDaniels can kiss job goodbye with Tebow pick

[tomjonesrocks]

Article: Broncos' McDaniels can kiss job goodbye with Tebow pick
By Pete Prisco
CBSSports.com Senior Writer

Link:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/13264107?tag=coverlist;coverlist_footer

Denver Broncos coach Josh McDaniels should enjoy the next year or two in Denver. Really. Soak all of it in. Enjoy being a head coach. Enjoy making all the decisions.

Your days are numbered.

When you trade away Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall and Tony Scheffler, the key components in the Broncos passing game in a year span, and then draft Tim Tebow in the first round of the draft, you are sending a loud message.

Talent doesn't matter.

Character does.

Why not pick the altar boys from the parish down the street? Aren't they good kids? Or maybe you can pick all the "A" students in this draft?

It doesn't matter if they can play. Just make sure they are good "yes men."

It just doesn't make any sense.

I understand a coach wanting to have good character guys, but this is going past that.

Tebow is a fifth-round talent.

First round?

Nobody in their right mind would ever say that Tebow plays the position better than Cutler. But Cutler was shipped out for being a bad boy.

Now they have Saint Timmy to fix things.

Here's a bet: He doesn't even beat out Brady Quinn.

He makes Quinn and Kyle Orton, the other quarterback, look like John Elway.

Tebow is raw. He doesn't understand the passing game. He doesn't read defenses.

Oh, but he's a good kid.

At least he'll save the locker room.

Really? If you aren't playing, character doesn't matter. The NFL is a cruel business. His rah-rah crap doesn't matter. They won't listen. They won't stand for it.

Crying after losses?

Yeah, right.

Does he work hard? Yes. Does he want to be good? Yes.

But the skills aren't there. He isn't close to being as good as Jimmy Clausen. Too bad for Jimmy he doesn't have the character Tebow has, at least that's what they say.

The Broncos reached big time for Tebow. But look at the bright side: At least he won't be running the streets.

He also won't be starting anytime soon -- if ever.

And Josh McDaniels will lose his job in a year or two over this one and his other moves over the past year.


For more from Pete Prisco, check him out on Twitter: @PriscoCBS

[BroncoBJ]

And that is why Pete Prisco is a writer and not a coach :salute:

[Shazam!]

Yes. TT has no talent. Fascinating article.

[Sparky The Sun Devil]

in reality, McD has MORE job security now. Bowlen isnt gonna fire McD because of this pick.

[mateus]

wow that is harsh. sounds like someone has been sleeping on the couch for far too long!

[Northman]

I dont think Tebow is the answer at QB but i dont agree totally with article either. Those said players didnt want to be here.

[rocks]

Prisco is such a drama queen. He's pissed because he looks like a fool for bashing Tebow for months.

There's a reason no one really listens to what he says anymore. He's on the same level as Todd McShay

[Shazam!]

Those said players didnt want to be here.

Ding ding ding!

NEWSFLASH- McDaniels WANTS Character Guys!

No talent? Bullshit.

[rocks]

I agree with every word. Tebow is a joke and I hope he fails miserably so I can actually root for the Broncos again. Screw you McDaniels for trading Cutler and drafting this joke.

Says the guy who is a UGA fan. lol.

[TXBRONC]

I agree with every word. Tebow is a joke and I hope he fails miserably so I can actually root for the Broncos again. Screw you McDaniels for trading Cutler and drafting this joke.

I would rather Tebow develop into a legitimate starting quarterback than fail.

[tomjonesrocks]

I'm profoundly depressed about the destruction of this franchise--but I hope the unbelievable, unprecedented backlash that's sure to come from this pick puts a chip on Tebow's shoulder that makes him never stop working.

This team will be vilified for this in the media and rightfully so. Clausen on the board, not to mention what we gave up and all the holes that could have been filled to get this guy.

For me, par for the course though. After letting Marshall and Cutler go, nothing surprises me anymore. The team is a train wreck.

[TXBRONC]

The Broncos will not get another dollar of mine until Tebow and McDaniels are gone. They WILL fail, and I will be sitting here enjoying every minute of it. I have been a Broncos die-hard since 1983 and this is the end. I have never felt this negatively about a team I love.

Man that seems like a lot of wasted energy.

[Shazam!]

I agree with every word. Tebow is a joke and I hope he fails miserably so I can actually root for the Broncos again. Screw you McDaniels for trading Cutler and drafting this joke.

I am thrilled then that McDaniels knows more about QBs than you.

[MileHiWildcat]

Ding ding ding!

NEWSFLASH- McDaniels WANTS Character Guys!

No talent? Bullshit.

Because after all, Character is what wins Super Bowls.....:confused:

[rocks]

The Broncos will not get another dollar of mine until Tebow and McDaniels are gone. They WILL fail, and I will be sitting here enjoying every minute of it. I have been a Broncos die-hard since 1983 and this is the end. I have never felt this negatively about a team I love.
You're so full of crap. You're just pissed that you may have to cheer for a Gator.

Good luck cheering against Tebow. It worked well for UGA.

[Ravage!!!]

if prisco would have praised the pick, you guys would be 'quoting' him and praising his skills.

Get used to articles like this. Get used to complaining about every writer, and calling every author a 'hack' because he doesn't agree with your perspective.

Tebow was a horrible pick. I don't think McD gets two more years.

[Buff]

I agree with every word. Tebow is a joke and I hope he fails miserably so I can actually root for the Broncos again. Screw you McDaniels for trading Cutler and drafting this joke.

Go away, you aren't wanted here.

[SBboundBRONCOS]

im so f-ing confused as too what talent Tebow lacks, ive hated the player as im going to U of TN

but seriously he the most athletic QB in the draft, 70% comp, leader, and competitor

if talent comes solely down to throwing motion than sure, tebow lacks all talent

[tomjonesrocks]

Tebow was a horrible pick. I don't think McD gets two more years.

Hah--"horrible"...that was the exact word Prisco used in his truncated "F" draft grade for the pick:

No. 25: Broncos select: Tim Tebow, QB, Florida Grade

Analysis: By far and away the worst pick in this draft. Wow. How can you justify trading away Cutler and picking this kid. He's a fifth-round pick -- at best. Now we know why Josh McDaniels will last one more year in Denver. Horrible. Just horrible.

Link:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/13264107?tag=coverlist;coverlist_footer

[rocks]

Hah--"horrible"...that was the exact word Prisco used in his truncated "F" draft grade for the pick:

No. 25: Broncos select: Tim Tebow, QB, Florida Grade

Analysis: By far and away the worst pick in this draft. Wow. How can you justify trading away Cutler and picking this kid. He's a fifth-round pick -- at best. Now we know why Josh McDaniels will last one more year in Denver. Horrible. Just horrible.

Link:
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/13264107?tag=coverlist;coverlist_footer

Ask Prisco how his pick for the Oklahoma game went a few years ago. He seriously has an agenda against Tebow.

[Ravage!!!]

Ask Prisco how his pick for the Oklahoma game went a few years ago. He seriously has an agenda against Tebow.

Seriously.... so what?

Don't think that everytime you see someone not like the Tebow pick, has an agenda against Tebow. The Tebow pick was horrid, and I don't give a rats-ass about rivalries in NCAA.

[Hoser]

Yeah right. Like Bowlen had no idea this was gonna happen :lol: This article is 100% fail.

[Ravage!!!]

Go away, you aren't wanted here.

Dude.... chill. You are better than this, and can come up with a better rebuttle to someone that doesn't share your opinion.

[Buff]

Dude.... chill. You are better than this, and can come up with a better rebuttle to someone that doesn't share your opinion.

There is a difference between disagreeing with a pick and wishing failure upon the team you supposedly root for. He is a disgrace to Bronco fans everywhere and I wish he'd quit the site.

[Ravage!!!]

There is a difference between disagreeing with a pick and wishing failure upon the team you supposedly root for. He is a disgrace to Bronco fans everywhere and I wish he'd quit the site.

Everyone has a right to voice their opinion, negative or not. They dont' have to root for the success of a coach...... I know for a fact there are a number of fans on this site that rooted against Shanahan.

"wishing" for something doesn't make it happen.

[rocks]

Seriously.... so what?

Don't think that everytime you see someone not like the Tebow pick, has an agenda against Tebow. The Tebow pick was horrid, and I don't give a rats-ass about rivalries in NCAA.

No. Prisco has been non-stop about Tebow over the years. I guess, in a way, he helped Tebow. Only fueled him to prove him wrong I think the only bigger doucebag was/is Todd McShay. Again, as usual, he proved his doubters wrong.

How do you know the pick is horrible? He hasn't taken a snap yet. No one here will know for years if it's a bad pick. It's not like they picked a 5'7'' 165 lb DE from Denver Community College...

[Buff]

Everyone has a right to voice their opinion, negative or not. They dont' have to root for the success of a coach...... I know for a fact there are a number of fans on this site that rooted against Shanahan.

"wishing" for something doesn't make it happen.

No actual Bronco fans ever rooted against Shanahan. Those people were poser bandwagoners just like the 12 year olds who have overrun this site tonight.

[topscribe]

You know, unhappy as I am right now with the Tebow deal, that is still Pete Prisco . . . :tsk:

-----

[Ravage!!!]

No. Prisco has been non-stop about Tebow over the years. I guess, in a way, he helped Tebow. Only fueled him to prove him wrong I think the only bigger doucebag was/is Todd McShay. Again, as usual, he proved his doubters wrong.

How do you know the pick is horrible? He hasn't taken a snap yet. No one here will know for years if it's a bad pick. It's not like they picked a 5'7'' 165 lb DE from Denver Community College...

I know Tebow won't start as QB this season... and even though McD thinks he can turn ANY QB into magic, he never has. He coached Cassel for a single season, and he's shown in KC he isn't very good. Brady won 2 Super Bowls before McD was even near him

So this "McD" knows QBs junk.... is just that... junk.

The pick was horrible because of where we took him... how we took him... and knowing we needed talent that could contribute right away. After all, that IS what McD said he was going to do, right?

McD didn't get him a player that is gong to help him win NOW.... and maybe he did it to buy himself time..thinking the "well, we will have Tebow in his second season" .. next year. Horrible pick.

[topscribe]

I agree with every word. Tebow is a joke and I hope he fails miserably so I can actually root for the Broncos again. Screw you McDaniels for trading Cutler and drafting this joke.

I don't hope Tebow fails. I don't hope any Bronco fails because for every
Bronco that fails, that is a failure for the Broncos. So rooting for the failure of
a player on the team is rooting against the team. Can you not grasp this?

-----

[broken12]

didnt mcd say that the reason we could not convert on short yardage due to no power up front, this is a clear message to me that he is just throwing shit on the walls and checking what sticks! he defended moreno on short yardage situations and yet fails to get help up front! joke and mole!

[tomjonesrocks]

Like many others, I can't wait until McDaniels' gets the axe. Hopefully this is just the horrible, incompetent transition guy to someone that can rescue the franchise.

This "out of the league in 3 years" stuff for Tebow I'm not so sure about though. He's a dangerous man with the ball in his hands. Add in his leadership qualities and intangibles and he's got a place *somewhere* on this team.

Too bad he'll be wildly overpaid if he doesn't pan out at the QB position...

[Dzone]

Huh???
\http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn11/malibubluff/4-82009-mid.jpg

[broken12]

put up the crying pic

[Tempus Fugit]

The irony of Prisco calling out others for how they do their jobs just never ceases to be funny.

[dogfish]

i was very vocal in my desire for us to NOT pick tebow, but this article is typically prisco dogshit (and rav, go back to mania and search what i had to say about prisco years ago if you think i'm just saying that because he's bashing our pick). . .

tebow doesn't have talent? ******* laughable comment-- it's beyond stupid. . . he absolutely lacks polish and technique, but he's not short on natural ability in any way. . . granted-- he doesn't have a particularly impressive arm, but it's strong enough for what we'll ask him to do. . . and in terms of raw physical skills, he's a prototype QB in every other way. . . ideal frame, and elite athletic ability for the position-- he's a 6'3" 235+ lb guy who ran a 4.7 and had a friggin' 38 inch vertical, it's retarded to suggest he's not a talented athlete. . .


i DO think it's possible that prisco could prove right about mcD losing his job in a year or two, though. . . but if it does happen, it certainly won't be just because of this pick. . . .

[Poet]

Seriously.... so what?

Don't think that everytime you see someone not like the Tebow pick, has an agenda against Tebow. The Tebow pick was horrid, and I don't give a rats-ass about rivalries in NCAA.

Yeah........

I'm a Tebow guy. I think he's a solid second round draft pick because he can do a lot as an offensive player in general. I see him as a 'gadget god', which includes some snaps at QB.

Think of what Vick was supposed to be for Philly, except panning out all the way.

I don't buy into the mechanics aspect of the knock on Tebow. There are a lot of guys who aren't technically sound, and let's not forget that Tebow made strides in a short time in that regard.

But still, I think he would be there in the second round. And probably the third.

However, Bradford doesn't read defenses. He came from the spread and he gets his plays and directions from his coaches on the sideline.

If that's the big time decider than Quinn should have been a god and Claussen should be the number one pick.

I don't think it was a good pick at all.

[Lonestar]

Hmm the best ever Qb in college playing at one of the best programs ever . Coached by a Legend

hold almost every college record while poling in one if the premier leagues in football.

Yep Tebow was a failure epically .


Does anyone want to say it prisco=dumb shit.

I seem to remember some more of his trash in years past. When I have time I'll post it. Everyone deserves a chuckle now and then.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

I'm very skeptical about tebow in the nfl as well, but anybody that openly says they want the team to fail so they can be right doesn't give a rat's ass about the broncos, and is certainly not what I would call a fan.

[drewloc]

I'm very skeptical about tebow in the nfl as well, but anybody that openly says they want the team to fail so they can be right doesn't give a rat's ass about the broncos, and is certainly not what I would call a fan.

That's the thing that sucks about all of this crap. I completely understand people not liking the pick. Everyone has there opinion, but I don't think anyone should want the Broncos to fail just so they can be right. I have mixed feelings about Tebow myself. That said, I think if he pans out and turns into a good or great player most people will gladly eat their skepticism.

[Overtime]

I would rather Tebow develop into a legitimate starting quarterback than fail.

i would just rather he retire so he can go do his goody goody two shoes missionary bullshit, and not embarrass himself or the Denver Broncos in the process.


Tebow was a horrible pick. I don't think McD gets two more years.

I hope to hell you're right. Bowlen thought he was getting a boy genius, instead we got a walking, talking cluster **** of stupidity and bad decisions.

Shanahan's gotta be lovin' this shit. He's sitting in Washington thinking "and them stupid ****s fired me for being complacent?" how's that working out for you ******** now?"

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

That's the thing that sucks about all of this crap. I completely understand people not liking the pick. Everyone has there opinion, but I don't think anyone should want the Broncos to fail just so they can be right. I have mixed feelings about Tebow myself. That said, I think if he pans out and turns into a good or great player most people will gladly eat their skepticism.

I'm slowly but surely jumping right on the bandwagon. He runs like hillis but he passes like brady quinn.

[roomemp]

The Broncos will not get another dollar of mine until Tebow and McDaniels are gone. They WILL fail, and I will be sitting here enjoying every minute of it. I have been a Broncos die-hard since 1983 and this is the end. I have never felt this negatively about a team I love.



Chargers Forums ------------>

[G_Money]

That's the thing that sucks about all of this crap. I completely understand people not liking the pick. Everyone has there opinion, but I don't think anyone should want the Broncos to fail just so they can be right. I have mixed feelings about Tebow myself. That said, I think if he pans out and turns into a good or great player most people will gladly eat their skepticism.

I'm skeptical, but I wasn't a believer in either Orton or Quinn. We weren't going ANYWHERE with Orton under center. Our offense was too predictable - and too easy for any team with a decent defense to stop.

Tebow tended to be predictable in college too - he just wasn't stoppable. We'll see if that carries over.

Now, McDaniels has basically finished out his skill positions on offense and has to get to the rest of the line.

Shanahan left our offense with:

- Cutler (who throws a lot of picks but has unbridled potential)
- Marshall (100+ catches every year and the eternal threat of suspension for dumbassery)
- Scheffler (injury-prone pass-catching TE threat for the middle of the field)
- Royal (amazing acceleration in and out of cuts and hands that won't quit)
- Hillis (pass-catching H-Back/Fullback with a monstrous straight-ahead style)
- 3/5ths of a badass OL

In 14 months McDaniels has made that over into:

- Mediocre-but-acceptable RFA (Orton) holding down the QB spot for Tebow (who never throws a pick and has loads of untapped - or is that untappable - potential)
- Thomas (Marshall's skillset, hopefully without Marshall's stupidity, and a foot injury that makes me nervous)
- Quinn (The TE one...and let's not go there)
- Royal
- Moreno (Tremendous SEC RB who didn't make any impact his first year)
- 3/5ths of a badass OL, with hopefully more on the way today and tommorrow

This whole thing rests on Martindale for the next couple seasons and Tebow after that. If Wink can't run a defense McDaniels is gonna be in DEEP trouble. If Tebow can't get us out of mediocrity Josh is gonna run out of time.

The clock has started, and Tebow could drag McDaniels down. But if Josh can do what Shanny could not - provide a workable defense to buy himself some time - we'll get to see a lot more of both McD and Tebow giving it their all to make that QB marriage work.

And there's still a lot of draft to go in which to add talent that can help us win until Tebow is ready (assuming he will be).

~G

[Northman]

I'm skeptical, but I wasn't a believer in either Orton or Quinn. We weren't going ANYWHERE with Orton under center. Our offense was too predictable - and too easy for any team with a decent defense to stop.

Tebow tended to be predictable in college too - he just wasn't stoppable. We'll see if that carries over.

Now, McDaniels has basically finished out his skill positions on offense and has to get to the rest of the line.

Shanahan left our offense with:

- Cutler (who throws a lot of picks but has unbridled potential)
- Marshall (100+ catches every year and the eternal threat of suspension for dumbassery)
- Scheffler (injury-prone pass-catching TE threat for the middle of the field)
- Royal (amazing acceleration in and out of cuts and hands that won't quit)
- Hillis (pass-catching H-Back/Fullback with a monstrous straight-ahead style)
- 3/5ths of a badass OL

In 14 months McDaniels has made that over into:

- Mediocre-but-acceptable RFA (Orton) holding down the QB spot for Tebow (who never throws a pick and has loads of untapped - or is that untappable - potential)
- Thomas (Marshall's skillset, hopefully without Marshall's stupidity, and a foot injury that makes me nervous)
- Quinn (The TE one...and let's not go there)
- Royal
- Moreno (Tremendous SEC RB who didn't make any impact his first year)
- 3/5ths of a badass OL, with hopefully more on the way today and tommorrow

This whole thing rests on Martindale for the next couple seasons and Tebow after that. If Wink can't run a defense McDaniels is gonna be in DEEP trouble. If Tebow can't get us out of mediocrity Josh is gonna run out of time.

The clock has started, and Tebow could drag McDaniels down. But if Josh can do what Shanny could not - provide a workable defense to buy himself some time - we'll get to see a lot more of both McD and Tebow giving it their all to make that QB marriage work.

And there's still a lot of draft to go in which to add talent that can help us win until Tebow is ready (assuming he will be).

~G

Excellent post.

[SOCALORADO.]

I'm skeptical, but I wasn't a believer in either Orton or Quinn. We weren't going ANYWHERE with Orton under center. Our offense was too predictable - and too easy for any team with a decent defense to stop.

Tebow tended to be predictable in college too - he just wasn't stoppable. We'll see if that carries over.

Now, McDaniels has basically finished out his skill positions on offense and has to get to the rest of the line.

Shanahan left our offense with:

- Cutler (who throws a lot of picks but has unbridled potential)
- Marshall (100+ catches every year and the eternal threat of suspension for dumbassery)
- Scheffler (injury-prone pass-catching TE threat for the middle of the field)
- Royal (amazing acceleration in and out of cuts and hands that won't quit)
- Hillis (pass-catching H-Back/Fullback with a monstrous straight-ahead style)
- 3/5ths of a badass OL

In 14 months McDaniels has made that over into:

- Mediocre-but-acceptable RFA (Orton) holding down the QB spot for Tebow (who never throws a pick and has loads of untapped - or is that untappable - potential)
- Thomas (Marshall's skillset, hopefully without Marshall's stupidity, and a foot injury that makes me nervous)
- Quinn (The TE one...and let's not go there)
- Royal
- Moreno (Tremendous SEC RB who didn't make any impact his first year)
- 3/5ths of a badass OL, with hopefully more on the way today and tommorrow

This whole thing rests on Martindale for the next couple seasons and Tebow after that. If Wink can't run a defense McDaniels is gonna be in DEEP trouble. If Tebow can't get us out of mediocrity Josh is gonna run out of time.

The clock has started, and Tebow could drag McDaniels down. But if Josh can do what Shanny could not - provide a workable defense to buy himself some time - we'll get to see a lot more of both McD and Tebow giving it their all to make that QB marriage work.

And there's still a lot of draft to go in which to add talent that can help us win until Tebow is ready (assuming he will be).

~G

Good post. However Cutler is very Jeff George. And Moreno had a good year last year. Give our ROOKIE RB a just a tiny, little credit.
And your right, the clock officially started ticking on MCD. He has 4 years.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

didnt mcd say that the reason we could not convert on short yardage due to no power up front, this is a clear message to me that he is just throwing shit on the walls and checking what sticks! he defended moreno on short yardage situations and yet fails to get help up front! joke and mole!

Maybe you didn't know this, but last night was just round #1. We still have 6 more rounds to draft people who may help on the O-line...

Tonight, for instance we have 3 picks in two rounds and only ONE Guard and ONE Center are off the board. Give it a chance.

If by Sunday we haven't addressed these issues, than by all means burn this MFer down about not addressing needs. At this point, we've made two picks in one round. Relax, the draft is still young.;)

[broncofaninfla]

I like the Tebow pick for two reason. 1) if he works out and becomes the stud Mcd feels he can be then Denver is a better team for it and Mcd has the young guy he can groom to run his beloved system 2) if Tebow flops, Mcd's is history. Either way, it works out best for Denver. I hope Tebow does work out and Denver becomes a dominant force in 2011 or 2012.

[muse]

Wait and see. I think Tebow is probably the worst QB that has ever played and he may not ever see the field. I hope I don't ever have to see him on the field.

Tebow cannot pass at all. He panics under pressure and cries on the sidelines. He is an absolute slap in the face to anyone who has ever played quarterback in this league.

Wow, did Tebow steal your girlfriend or something? Wait, no, he wouldn't. So your hatred of him is purely irrational.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Am I the only one who realizes we just got Tebow for basically NOTHING? We traded back twice to acquire the WR playmaker that many here were coveting. We got him. And for our troubles, we got some extra picks. We turned those picks into Tim Tebow and STILL HAVE AN EXTRA 3rd ROUNDER FOR OUR TROUBLES.

You all are a trip. Gotta find sumthin to bitch about.

Whether you like the kid or not, ya can't question his heart, toughness or work ethic. At the very least, he is a wildcat option and a goalline terror. At the best, McDaniels is a genius. The jury is still out. But again, what did we really lose to get this guy?

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Am I the only one who realizes we just got Tebow for basically NOTHING? We traded back twice to acquire the WR playmaker that many here were coveting. We got him. And for our troubles, we got some extra picks. We turned those picks into Tim Tebow and STILL HAVE AN EXTRA 3rd ROUNDER FOR OUR TROUBLES.

You all are a trip. Gotta find sumthin to bitch about.

Whether you like the kid or not, ya can't question his heart, toughness or work ethic. At the very least, he is a wildcat option and a goalline terror. At the best, McDaniels is a genius. The jury is still out. But again, what did we really lose to get this guy?

QFT! :beer:

[SOCALORADO.]

Am I the only one who realizes we just got Tebow for basically NOTHING? We traded back twice to acquire the WR playmaker that many here were coveting. We got him. And for our troubles, we got some extra picks. We turned those picks into Tim Tebow and STILL HAVE AN EXTRA 3rd ROUNDER FOR OUR TROUBLES.

You all are a trip. Gotta find sumthin to bitch about.

Whether you like the kid or not, ya can't question his heart, toughness or work ethic. At the very least, he is a wildcat option and a goalline terror. At the best, McDaniels is a genius. The jury is still out. But again, what did we really lose to get this guy?

DEN basically lost one 2nd.
He was supposed to have been drafted in the 2nd.
Steal.

[Northman]

Am I the only one who realizes we just got Tebow for basically NOTHING? We traded back twice to acquire the WR playmaker that many here were coveting. We got him. And for our troubles, we got some extra picks. We turned those picks into Tim Tebow and STILL HAVE AN EXTRA 3rd ROUNDER FOR OUR TROUBLES.

You all are a trip. Gotta find sumthin to bitch about.

Whether you like the kid or not, ya can't question his heart, toughness or work ethic. At the very least, he is a wildcat option and a goalline terror. At the best, McDaniels is a genius. The jury is still out. But again, what did we really lose to get this guy?

Oh wildcat, woohoo! Championship.

[Buff]

Am I the only one who realizes we just got Tebow for basically NOTHING? We traded back twice to acquire the WR playmaker that many here were coveting. We got him. And for our troubles, we got some extra picks. We turned those picks into Tim Tebow and STILL HAVE AN EXTRA 3rd ROUNDER FOR OUR TROUBLES.

You all are a trip. Gotta find sumthin to bitch about.

Whether you like the kid or not, ya can't question his heart, toughness or work ethic. At the very least, he is a wildcat option and a goalline terror. At the best, McDaniels is a genius. The jury is still out. But again, what did we really lose to get this guy?

That's basically what I said in another thread. Give McD credit for being creative enough to stockpile the picks to go after his guy. We still have 5 picks remaining and we walked with 2 first rounders last night. It's not like he's mortgaging the future and crippling the franchise by taking this guy.

[GEM]

I agree with every word. Tebow is a joke and I hope he fails miserably so I can actually root for the Broncos again. Screw you McDaniels for trading Cutler and drafting this joke.

If he fails miserably, the Broncos fail miserably. Go you!!

CUTLER FAILED MISERABLY. But you choose to chastise the coach for getting rid of him. 4500 yds and a probowl don't mean shit to a team if they're still sitting at home come the playoffs.

Hypocrisy is fun, isn't it.

[GEM]

The Broncos will not get another dollar of mine until Tebow and McDaniels are gone. They WILL fail, and I will be sitting here enjoying every minute of it. I have been a Broncos die-hard since 1983 and this is the end. I have never felt this negatively about a team I love.

So take the jump. Get off the Broncos bus, and when it's back to what you feel is up to your standards, stay off. :shrugs:

[topscribe]

If he fails miserably, the Broncos fail miserably. Go you!!

CUTLER FAILED MISERABLY. But you choose to chastise the coach for getting rid of him. 4500 yds and a probowl don't mean shit to a team if they're still sitting at home come the playoffs.

Hypocrisy is fun, isn't it.

I agree partly about Cutler. However, Cutler could not control the failure of the
"defense" (to use the term loosely). Cutler showed what Orton showed in the
last part of last year: If your defense fails you and you have to play catch-up, your
efficiency goes down. You can do it once in a while, but if you have to do it game
after game, it is not going to work.

So I don't blame Cutler for everything. However, your point is understood and
well taken . . .

-----

[GEM]

Because after all, Character is what wins Super Bowls.....:confused:

Cause we were so close to the Super Bowls with those other guys....right? :laugh:

[dogfish]

But again, what did we really lose to get this guy?

the dignity of a good portion of our fanbase. . . ?

[SmilinAssasSin27]

the dignity of a good portion of our fanbase. . . ?

who were gonna spew their bile regardless...

[SmilinAssasSin27]

the dignity of a good portion of our fanbase. . . ?

And for what it's worth, everyone at work today (Pittsburgh area) was kinda impressed w/ what Denver did yesterday. Not everyone is a Tebow hater. Many realize he is a winner and can contribute from day 1, even if not at QB right away.

[GEM]

I agree partly about Cutler. However, Cutler could not control the failure of the
"defense" (to use the term loosely). Cutler showed what Orton showed in the
last part of last year: If your defense fails you and you have to play catch-up, your
efficiency goes down. You can do it once in a while, but if you have to do it game
after game, it is not going to work.

So I don't blame Cutler for everything. However, your point is understood and
well taken . . .

-----

I don't blame Cutler for the defenses deficiencies either, but I guess I hold a guy that compares his arm to John Elway and who some reference as the next coming of John Elway to higher standards. If you are going to talk like that, you best be able to back it up like Elway. You best be able to put a horrible defense on your back and carry them to at least one playoff game in 3 years, Super Bowl 5 times.

[GEM]

who were gonna spew their bile regardless...

And at least a 1/4 of that fanbase were going to go Exorcist head spinning no matter what we did just because of the guy in charge making the picks.

[tomjonesrocks]

I like the Tebow pick for two reason. 1) if he works out and becomes the stud Mcd feels he can be then Denver is a better team for it and Mcd has the young guy he can groom to run his beloved system 2) if Tebow flops, Mcd's is history. Either way, it works out best for Denver. I hope Tebow does work out and Denver becomes a dominant force in 2011 or 2012.

Hadn't thought of it like that--thanks.

[topscribe]

I don't blame Cutler for the defenses deficiencies either, but I guess I hold a guy that compares his arm to John Elway and who some reference as the next coming of John Elway to higher standards. If you are going to talk like that, you best be able to back it up like Elway. You best be able to put a horrible defense on your back and carry them to at least one playoff game in 3 years, Super Bowl 5 times.

Well, understand that I am one of the people who are awfully pissed at Cutler for
his prima donna ways and lack of integrity. But I have to try to bring out the truth,
and I know you're the same way.

My having said that, this "stronger arm than Elway" thing was entirely blown up
by the media. Cutler said that with a half-grin on his face after being pumped by
an idiot reporter. I have never bought that he said that in all earnestness.

I just think Cutler felt the weight of Elway's long shadow. It was really unfair (but
inevitable) that he was to be regarded as Elway II.

In fact, come to think of it, that might have weighed in on his desire to get out
of Denver. Hmmm . . . gotta think on that a while . . .

-----

[arapaho2]

I don't blame Cutler for the defenses deficiencies either, but I guess I hold a guy that compares his arm to John Elway and who some reference as the next coming of John Elway to higher standards. If you are going to talk like that, you best be able to back it up like Elway. You best be able to put a horrible defense on your back and carry them to at least one playoff game in 3 years, Super Bowl 5 times.


you mean like elway did in 1990 when the bronco offense was 8th in total offense...but the defense was 20th in total d..including 23rd in scoring defense
we had a 1200 yard rusher...21 rushing tds...elway..three amigos...shannon sharp...and because our defense sucked giving up 23 points per game we finished 5-11..elway threw 15 ints that year, btw

even the great elway couldnt carry us every time..but you all expected a young qb with a much much worse defense too?:lol:

[silkamilkamonico]

Ugh this is total nightmare.

I never thought the day would come when I would actually be emabarrassed to be a Bronco fan, and that's with the recent struggles.

I feel betrayed by McDipShit.

[topscribe]

you mean like elway did in 1990 when the bronco offense was 8th in total offense...but the defense was 20th in total d..including 23rd in scoring defense
we had a 1200 yard rusher...21 rushing tds...elway..three amigos...shannon sharp...and because our defense sucked giving up 23 points per game we finished 5-11..elway threw 15 ints that year, btw

even the great elway couldnt carry us every time..but you all expected a young qb with a much much worse defense too?:lol:

Yup, let's give Cutler a bye.

Not Orton, but Cutler . . .

-----

[Northman]

I don't blame Cutler for the defenses deficiencies either, but I guess I hold a guy that compares his arm to John Elway and who some reference as the next coming of John Elway to higher standards. If you are going to talk like that, you best be able to back it up like Elway. You best be able to put a horrible defense on your back and carry them to at least one playoff game in 3 years, Super Bowl 5 times.

Yet, we've already had people on here compare Tebow to Elway and McD to Bill Walsh. :lol:

[GEM]

you mean like elway did in 1990 when the bronco offense was 8th in total offense...but the defense was 20th in total d..including 23rd in scoring defense
we had a 1200 yard rusher...21 rushing tds...elway..three amigos...shannon sharp...and because our defense sucked giving up 23 points per game we finished 5-11..elway threw 15 ints that year, btw

even the great elway couldnt carry us every time..but you all expected a young qb with a much much worse defense too?:lol:

Just once would have been nice. ;) You see Cutler as a savior, I don't. No biggie.

[Gimpygod]

Good post. However Cutler is very Jeff George. And Moreno had a good year last year. Give our ROOKIE RB a just a tiny, little credit.
And your right, the clock officially started ticking on MCD. He has 4 years.

four more years of this!? If that's true I'm praying that McDaniels sees a Boy Scout helping an old lady cross the street, rushes out to sign him To a $30 million contract and gets run over by RTD... eight times. Eight times because stupid, while annoying, seems to be very durable.

[claymore]

I don't blame Cutler for the defenses deficiencies either, but I guess I hold a guy that compares his arm to John Elway and who some reference as the next coming of John Elway to higher standards. If you are going to talk like that, you best be able to back it up like Elway. You best be able to put a horrible defense on your back and carry them to at least one playoff game in 3 years, Super Bowl 5 times.

Elway went to the SB once with a defense that wasnt in the top ten. I doubt Elway ever went to the playoffs with a defense as bad as the one we had in 08.

86 Def ranked 13
87 Def ranked 9
89 Def ranked 3
97 Def ranked 4
98 Def ranked 5

[GEM]

Elway went to the SB once with a defense that wasnt in the top ten. I doubt Elway ever went to the playoffs with a defense as bad as the one we had in 08.

86 Def ranked 13
87 Def ranked 9
89 Def ranked 3
97 Def ranked 4
98 Def ranked 5

Playoffs?

[claymore]

Playoffs?

I dont understand what your asking.

[Ravage!!!]

The press asked Cutler about his arm and compared it to Elway. That has got to be the most overblown statement

[claymore]

The press asked Cutler about his arm and compared it to Elway. That has got to be the most overblown statement

Elway is the measuring stick.

[GEM]

I dont understand what your asking.

How many times did he make it to the playoffs and what were the defense rankings then?

[claymore]

How many times did he make it to the playoffs and what were the defense rankings then? I would have to check. But If Elway drug the team unwillingly to the playoffs all by himself, he would have done it every year I would think.

[arapaho2]

Yup, let's give Cutler a bye.

Not Orton, but Cutler . . .

-----


wait ...orton had a top 10 defense..7th overall...cutler had the 29th ...kinda a bit differant:confused:

[arapaho2]

Just once would have been nice. ;) You see Cutler as a savior, I don't. No biggie.


how could he be a saviour..he doesnt play for the broncos...however i seen the same stuff i seen in elway in the young cutler

there is no doubt in my mind we would be a much better team if we had kept him...thats the issue...that and how the mcd and orton nuthuggers want to blindly crusify the guy because he no longer plays here

[GEM]

1984- D rated 25
1986- D rated 9
1987- D rated 9
1989- D rated 3
1991- D rated 5
1993- D rated 19
1996-D rated 4
1997- D rated 5
1998- D rated 14

Cutler
2006- D rated 14
2007- D rated 19
2008- D rated 29


3 years where Elway got at least to a playoff game where his D was bad.

Cutler still has never played a playoff game.

[GEM]

how could he be a saviour..he doesnt play for the broncos...however i seen the same stuff i seen in elway in the young cutler

there is no doubt in my mind we would be a much better team if we had kept him...thats the issue...that and how the mcd and orton nuthuggers want to blindly crusify the guy because he no longer plays here

I crucify the guy because I didn't like him. Has nothing to do with him not being here. I don't like his cockiness because he hasn't done anything in his career where he should be that cocky. My dislike for him has nothing to do with McDaniels, Shanahan, it has to do with Cutler.

[Shazam!]

however i seen the same stuff i seen in elway in the young cutler...

When there were discussions Elway was to be traded to Washington, he didnt cry about it or demand a trade. He may have been upset, but he handled it. Nice try 'Cutler nuthugger'.

[topscribe]

wait ...orton had a top 10 defense..7th overall...cutler had the 29th ...kinda a bit differant:confused:

Oh really? Tell me about the run defense last year. Was it top ten?

(Hint: It ranked #26 - #32 the last eight games.)

We've been through all this before. You going to cycle into the twist and spin again?

My point is that you seem to be defending Cutler over the same issues in which you bashed Orton.

Just seems a bit inconsistent, is all . . . :noidea:

-----

[Dreadnought]

How many times did he make it to the playoffs and what were the defense rankings then?

I don't have time to pull specific numbers, but Claymore is basically correct. Prior to Shanahan Elway had a top tier defense every year we made the playoffs with him with the exception of 1993. Our running game, offensive scheme, and O-line frequently sucked, but we played good D during those years. Under Shanahan the offense was so High-octane it almost didn't matter.

As for the Tebow pick? Seems like a decent kid, and I won't mind hoping he does well for us - and brings McDaniels eventual successor a Super Bowl ring :D

I am not much of a fan of "athletic" running QB's in the Tebow mold, but at least he's not personally a doucherocket. Thats something positive I suppose.

[topscribe]

When there were discussions Elway was to be traded to Washington, he didnt cry about it or demand a trade. He may have been upset, but he handled it. Nice try 'Cutler nuthugger'.

I'm just hoping Orton handles the Tebow selection like Elway handled the Maddox one.

Elway just kept on truckin' . . .

-----

[dogfish]

who ARE these elway and cutler people you speak of??

[Broncolingus]

I wonder how long Pete Piss-co has had this crystal ball that the KNOWS exactly what's going to happen and if he can only use it for stupid-a$$ articles?

[GEM]

I don't have time to pull specific numbers, but Claymore is basically correct. Prior to Shanahan Elway had a top tier defense every year we made the playoffs with him with the exception of 1993. Our running game, offensive scheme, and O-line frequently sucked, but we played good D during those years. Under Shanahan the offense was so High-octane it almost didn't matter.

As for the Tebow pick? Seems like a decent kid, and I won't mind hoping he does well for us - and brings McDaniels eventual successor a Super Bowl ring :D

I am not much of a fan of "athletic" running QB's in the Tebow mold, but at least he's not personally a doucherocket. Thats something positive I suppose.

I pulled it for you. Numbers are in a post above.

Elways had 3 years where his defense ranking was approx. to Cutler's defense ratings, he made it to the playoffs, Cutler didn't.

:shrugs: It boils down to personal preferences. I prefer a guy who is a team guy, who doesn't sit on the sidelines pouting, a guy that doesn't put himself on a pedestal. A guy that understands that it is a business and isn't going to force a trade because his name came up in trade talks. If Elway acted that way, we probably wouldn't have our 2 Lombardi trophies.

I don't like an aloof qb who rolls his eyes at press conferences.

I don't like a qb who gets his ass handed to him by a division rival 3 years running and has the balls to be talking shit to the qb who is kicking his very ass on the field.

Again, I don't like his cockiness.

[arapaho2]

When there were discussions Elway was to be traded to Washington, he didnt cry about it or demand a trade. He may have been upset, but he handled it. Nice try 'Cutler nuthugger'.

:lol::lol::lol:

was you even around then...theres a reason reeves was fired after that...elway went to the owner and said its me or reeves...elway won

elway went to bowlen and demanded..either trade me or get rid of reeves

sounds like he handled it well

kids shouldnt speaketh of things they know nought

[claymore]

1984- D rated 25
1986- D rated 9
1987- D rated 9
1989- D rated 3
1991- D rated 5
1993- D rated 19
1996-D rated 4
1997- D rated 5
1998- D rated 14

Cutler
2006- D rated 14
2007- D rated 19
2008- D rated 29


3 years where Elway got at least to a playoff game where his D was bad.

Cutler still has never played a playoff game.
84 & 93 were one and dones. 98 we were SB champions where everyone gave us their best shot.

Bottom line is Elway had alot better teams than people admit.

[Broncolingus]

84 & 93 were one and dones. 98 we were SB champions where everyone gave us their best shot.

Bottom line is Elway had alot better teams than people admit.

The offensive line during the 96-99 year span was one of the top-5 OLs EVER in the history of the NFL...

...them boys were ******* studs!

...JMO...

[claymore]

:lol::lol::lol:

was you even around then...theres a reason reeves was fired after that...elway went to the owner and said its me or reeves...elway won

elway went to bowlen and demanded..either trade me or get rid of reeves

sounds like he handled it well

kids shouldnt speaketh of things they know nought

Thats another thing. Cutler gets called a whiny bitch and a drunk. Elway was also a whiny bitch and a drunk. Elway was just given the chance to grow up. Thats it...

[claymore]

The offensive line during the 96-99 year span was one of the top-5 OLs EVER in the history of the NFL...

...them boys were ******* studs!

...JMO...

I agree. I didnt to watch alot of games back then (because of military deployments) but it was exciting.

[topscribe]

Thats another thing. Cutler gets called a whiny bitch and a drunk. Elway was also a whiny bitch and a drunk. Elway was just given the chance to grow up. Thats it...

Baloney.

I don't ever remember Elway's conducting himself with the FO the way Cutler did.

-----

[Northman]

84 & 93 were one and dones. 98 we were SB champions where everyone gave us their best shot.

Bottom line is Elway had alot better teams than people admit.


They were ok, but nothing grand. But compared to a lot of the playoff and SB teams back then he didnt have near the type of talent as a lot of those teams. But at the end of the day you simply cant put Jay in the same class. You just cant no matter how much you might like Cutler. If you truly believe John wasnt that good or whatever thats your opinion but i definitely disagree with you on many levels. ;)

[Dreadnought]

I pulled it for you. Numbers are in a post above.

Elways had 3 years where his defense ranking was approx. to Cutler's defense ratings, he made it to the playoffs, Cutler didn't.

:shrugs: It boils down to personal preferences. I prefer a guy who is a team guy, who doesn't sit on the sidelines pouting, a guy that doesn't put himself on a pedestal. A guy that understands that it is a business and isn't going to force a trade because his name came up in trade talks. If Elway acted that way, we probably wouldn't have our 2 Lombardi trophies.

I don't like an aloof qb who rolls his eyes at press conferences.

I don't like a qb who gets his ass handed to him by a division rival 3 years running and has the balls to be talking shit to the qb who is kicking his very ass on the field.

Again, I don't like his cockiness.


Are we talking Plummer here? In actuality, I don't like many of the traits you describe either, though the only one I think Cutler was actually guilty of was aloofness (whatever that may mean) - and I actually like that one much better than over emotional high school nonsense. Tom Landry and Herm Edwards say you can win in this league without jumping around like a pre-teen girl. Just sayin' is all...

And the Shanny era defenses weren't that good, no argument here. Just good enough given the offense we fielded.

[topscribe]

84 & 93 were one and dones. 98 we were SB champions where everyone gave us their best shot.

Bottom line is Elway had alot better teams than people admit.

Of the teams that went to the Super Bowl in the 1980s, John Madden didn't mince words.

He said those were "bad teams" John Elway took there. He went on to say, "Elway is the
closest thing to a one man gang I have ever seen."

-----

[arapaho2]

1984- D rated 25
1986- D rated 9
1987- D rated 9
1989- D rated 3
1991- D rated 5
1993- D rated 19
1996-D rated 4
1997- D rated 5
1998- D rated 14

Cutler
2006- D rated 14
2007- D rated 19
2008- D rated 29


3 years where Elway got at least to a playoff game where his D was bad.

Cutler still has never played a playoff game.


lets look at 1984 shall we..overall 25th

in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 2nd in points allowed..15.1
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 4th in rushing def..
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 5th in sacks with 57
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 2nd in ints with 31 ints
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 27th in passing yards
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 25th in total yards

now look at the 2008 broncos..29th overall

in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 3oth in scoring..
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 27th in rushing
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 26th in sacks with 26
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 31st in ints..with 6
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 26th in passing defense
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 29th in total yards

so you tell me who had the worser defense..cutler in 08 or elway in 84

[claymore]

Baloney.

I don't ever remember Elway's conducting himself with the FO the way Cutler did.

-----
The times were completley different. No cell phones, no texts... no internet etc. We got a 3rd of the news we do now. But Elway told the Colts he wasnt going there which is still looked at as a bitch move by all non Bronco fans. And he told Bowlen him or me. Which was a bitch move.



They were ok, but nothing grand. But compared to a lot of the playoff and SB teams back then he didnt have near the type of talent as a lot of those teams. But at the end of the day you simply cant put Jay in the same class. You just cant no matter how much you might like Cutler. If you truly believe John wasnt that good or whatever thats your opinion but i definitely disagree with you on many levels. ;)
Back then the AFC in general was worse. Alot worse. It went 13 years without a SB win. We broke the cycle in 97.

Elway and Cutler are almost exactly alike at similar points in their career.

If Cutler grows up to be a good man and teammate is yet to be seen.

[Lonestar]

if prisco would have praised the pick, you guys would be 'quoting' him and praising his skills.

Get used to articles like this. Get used to complaining about every writer, and calling every author a 'hack' because he doesn't agree with your perspective.

Tebow was a horrible pick. I don't think McD gets two more years. Do you really think that Pat was not on board with Tebow coming to DEN.

I just do not see Pat lowering the boom on him soon like everyone seems to think UNLESS the Broncos fail at winning any games.

Pat knew the state of the franchise when he hired him. Pat hired him to fix the team and so far other than getting rid of a whole bunch of losers on defense last year, 8 of the 11 starters were moved out of starting spots if not let go altogether.

Pat traded jay it was not Josh that made that decision. How it got to that may have contributed but it was Pat over Joshes wish to keep him and try and fix him mentally.

It was Pats and the FO decision NOT to pay BM. I suspect he was on board about hills and TS.

I also suspect that letting nolan, Rick and Bobby to leave was also brought up to Pat before it happened.

Other than one comment by Pat last year after the draft about Josh making some rookie mistakes I have heard nothing else from PAt but praise for him.

IMO and a few other Tebow will infect give him more leeway (TIME) in wining a super bowl ring. NOT cut it shorter.

[GEM]

84 & 93 were one and dones. 98 we were SB champions where everyone gave us their best shot.

Bottom line is Elway had alot better teams than people admit.

Cutler couldn't even get to the playoffs to be one and done. :coffee:

[claymore]

Of the teams that went to the Super Bowl in the 1980s, John Madden didn't mince words.

He said those were "bad teams" John Elway took there. He went on to say, "Elway is the
closest thing to a one man gang I have ever seen."

-----

All AFC teams were bad in that period. Madden has said so much shit over the years I cant believe anyone quotes him.

[slim]

All AFC teams were bad in that period. Madden has said so much shit over the years I cant believe anyone quotes him.

Wait, didn't you just try to make the argument that those teams "weren't as bad as everyone says"?

[Northman]

All AFC teams were bad in that period. Madden has said so much shit over the years I cant believe anyone quotes him.

To be honest, the AFC teams during Cutler's tenure were equally as bad.

[Dreadnought]

lets look at 1984 shall we..overall 25th

in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 2nd in points allowed..15.1
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 4th in rushing def..
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 5th in sacks with 57
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 2nd in ints with 31 ints
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 27th in passing yards
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 25th in total yards

now look at the 2008 broncos..29th overall

in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 3oth in scoring..
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 27th in rushing
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 26th in sacks with 26
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 31st in ints..with 6
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 26th in passing defense
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 29th in total yards

so you tell me who had the worser defense..cutler in 08 or elway in 84


The word most often used to describe those Bronco defenses was "Opportunistic" Classic bend but don't break, done right. Undersized and finesse oriented and fast, they forced a lot of turnovers and sacks, yielded yards but not many points. The excelled at stopping drives by making the other guys make mistakes. That last part of it was entirely foreign to defense as envisioned by Bates/ Slowick

[arapaho2]

Baloney.

I don't ever remember Elway's conducting himself with the FO the way Cutler did.

-----


thats because there was no internet and teams kept happenings in house for the most part

[Lonestar]

No actual Bronco fans ever rooted against Shanahan. Those people were poser bandwagoners just like the 12 year olds who have overrun this site tonight.

I'll go on record and SAY I wanted mike out of the dual role, of being lord and master if the broncos.

I always wanted a real GM installed to make the personnel decisions, be in charge of the scouts, be able to hire and fire coaches WITH mike input and handle contracts. Which would have allowed the "mastermind" to concentrate on wing games and not micro managing every detail in Dove Valley.

Never once rooted against him, but was glad (actually shocked) when he was fired as it was plain for all to see he was not the same guy we hired way back.

[topscribe]

The times were completley different. No cell phones, no texts... no internet etc. We got a 3rd of the news we do now. But Elway told the Colts he wasnt going there which is still looked at as a bitch move by all non Bronco fans. And he told Bowlen him or me. Which was a bitch move.



Back then the AFC in general was worse. Alot worse. It went 13 years without a SB win. We broke the cycle in 97.

Elway and Cutler are almost exactly alike at similar points in their career.

If Cutler grows up to be a good man and teammate is yet to be seen.

We had a little more than the telegraph back then, Clay, regardless of your
impression. We had TV, radio, and the newspapers . . . and reporters who
salivated over any prospect of breaking news they could get their hands on.

I was all over that back then. Trust me. I read and heard every word I could
possibly find on Elway and the Broncos. They were an obsession to me back
then . . . far more than they are now.

Regarding the issue with the Colts, you just demonstrated here you know
nothing about it. That was loyalty to his father, who had feuded with the Colts'
HC Frank Kush when they both were HCs in college. There was very bad blood
between Kush and Elway's father that ran deep. Elway told Irsay, before the
draft took place, that he could not play for Kush. He had already stated his
case, and Irsay knew why.

Cutler cried because Xanders and McDaniels listened to trade offers for him.

There is a huge difference between the two incidents.

-----

[GEM]

1984- 13-3
1993 9-7
1998 14-2

What were Cutler's records his 3 years here?

9-7
7-9
8-8

[arapaho2]

Oh really? Tell me about the run defense last year. Was it top ten?

(Hint: It ranked #26 - #32 the last eight games.)

We've been through all this before. You going to cycle into the twist and spin again?

My point is that you seem to be defending Cutler over the same issues in which you bashed Orton.

Just seems a bit inconsistent, is all . . . :noidea:

-----

whats a spin?..we could spin the 08 scoring defense to the last 3 games two...wouldnt that have set a nfl record with about 34 points per game allowed

facts are facts rod...you cant pick this and neglect that..the season as a whole the 09 defense was heads and tails above the 08 defense..spin it any way you want..it is a fact

[claymore]

Cutler couldn't even get to the playoffs to be one and done. :coffee:

he only had 2 years to try. Lets not pretend like Elway dominated the league in his first few years. The guy was a turnover machine.

Food for thought on the 3 playoff years in question in comparison to Cutlers 2 years.

1984 Broncos...
Scored 353 points (22.1/g), 11th of 28 in the NFL.
Allowed 241 points (15.1/g), 2nd.
Differential of 112 points (7.0/g), 5th.
1993 Broncos
Scored 373 points (23.3/g), 3rd of 28 in the NFL.
Allowed 284 points (17.8/g), 10th.
Differential of 89 points (5.6/g), 4th.
1998 Broncos
Scored 501 points (31.3/g), 2nd of 30 in the NFL.
Allowed 309 points (19.3/g), 8th.
Differential of 192 points (12.0/g), 2nd.
Expected W-L: 12.1-3.9.

2007 Broncos
Scored 320 points (20.0/g), 21st of 32 in the NFL.
Allowed 409 points (25.6/g), 28th.
Differential of -89 points (-5.6/g), 23rd.
2008 Broncos
Scored 370 points (23.1/g), 16th of 32 in the NFL.
Allowed 448 points (28.0/g), 30th.
Differential of -78 points (-4.9/g), 25th.

[Gimpygod]

wait ...orton had a top 10 defense..7th overall...cutler had the 29th ...kinda a bit differant:confused:

Oh no he didn't! Snap, snap, snap. Did you just point out facts that Kyle benefited from a much better defense yet had the same record as Cutler with tremendously inferior numbers? Heretic, blasphemer... Coachchaz you get the rope and I'll get the diesel fuel , we must nip this kind of posting in the bud before it grows out of control.

[topscribe]

thats because there was no internet and teams kept happenings in house for the most part

Yes, Rap. You tell me how things were back then. :coffee:

-----

[arapaho2]

Cutler couldn't even get to the playoffs to be one and done. :coffee:


please respond to this

lets look at 1984 shall we..overall 25th

in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 2nd in points allowed..15.1
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 4th in rushing def..
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 5th in sacks with 57
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 2nd in ints with 31 ints
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 27th in passing yards
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 25th in total yards

now look at the 2008 broncos..29th overall

in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 3oth in scoring..
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 27th in rushing
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 26th in sacks with 26
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 31st in ints..with 6
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 26th in passing defense
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 29th in total yards

so you tell me who had the worser defense..cutler in 08 or elway in 84

[GEM]

See the difference in those numbers Clay....the OFFENSE scored more than the DEFENSE allowed. Elway knew what he had to do in order to be successful. Cutler couldn't overcome it....so I'm sorry but I can't even begin to compare Cutler to Elway. Elway had "it". Cutler doesn't. Cutler gets boo'd he flips his home field fans off. He gets mentioned in a trade and he forces his way out of town. I can't respect that. You have your beliefs, I have mine, neither will be moved from their current position. And that's ok.

[GEM]

please respond to this

lets look at 1984 shall we..overall 25th

in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 2nd in points allowed..15.1
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 4th in rushing def..
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 5th in sacks with 57
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 2nd in ints with 31 ints
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 27th in passing yards
in 1984 the broncos defense was ranked 25th in total yards

now look at the 2008 broncos..29th overall

in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 3oth in scoring..
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 27th in rushing
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 26th in sacks with 26
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 31st in ints..with 6
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 26th in passing defense
in 2008 the broncos defense was ranked 29th in total yards

so you tell me who had the worser defense..cutler in 08 or elway in 84

Sure....Elway put more points on the board. Who overcame a defense?

[Lonestar]

I know Tebow won't start as QB this season... and even though McD thinks he can turn ANY QB into magic, he never has. He coached Cassel for a single season, and he's shown in KC he isn't very good. Brady won 2 Super Bowls before McD was even near him

So this "McD" knows QBs junk.... is just that... junk.

The pick was horrible because of where we took him... how we took him... and knowing we needed talent that could contribute right away. After all, that IS what McD said he was going to do, right?

McD didn't get him a player that is gong to help him win NOW.... and maybe he did it to buy himself time..thinking the "well, we will have Tebow in his second season" .. next year. Horrible pick.


Just as jay should not have started his rookie season but circumstances changed that . jay was not ready for the complex offense INfact some could say he still may not be ready for NFL quality DB's

So what is the issue if he does not start this year.

How about we wait until eh draft is done before we all (some) sing about the demise of the franchise.

I know that you do not like Josh so what is new with the hate?

lets give it through tomorrow evening at the conclusion of the daft to see if all the holes are not filled with quality choices. It is not like there was only ONE ILB, OC, NT, or OLG in the draft. This was one of the deepest of the drafts in many years for these spots and most say the drop f from #1 to even #4 is not all that large..

zchiil put till after have seen what he can do.

[claymore]

We had a little more than the telegraph back then, Clay, regardless of your
impression. We had TV, radio, and the newspapers . . . and reporters who
salivated over any prospect of breaking news they could get their hands on.

I was all over that back then. Trust me. I read and heard every word I could
possibly find on Elway and the Broncos. They were an obsession to me back
then . . . far more than they are now.

Regarding the issue with the Colts, you just demonstrated here you know
nothing about it. That was loyalty to his father, who had feuded with the Colts'
HC Frank Kush when they both were HCs in college. There was very bad blood
between Kush and Elway's father that ran deep. Elway told Irsay, before the
draft took place, that he could not play for Kush. He had already stated his
case, and Irsay knew why.

Cutler cried because Xanders and McDaniels listened to trade offers for him.

There is a huge difference between the two incidents.

-----
It was a bitch move. A spoiled brat kid move. Broncos TC was in my home town. I know for a fact The beat writers didnt get all the scoop on Elway being an ass.

1984- 13-3
1993 9-7
1998 14-2

What were Cutler's records his 3 years here?

9-7
7-9
8-8

You obviously know. THose teams 84,93,98 were pretty good if you look.

[GEM]

It was a bitch move. A spoiled brat kid move. Broncos TC was in my home town. I know for a fact The beat writers didnt get all the scoop on Elway being an ass.


You obviously know. THose teams 84,93,98 were pretty good if you look.

No kidding they were good. They had the better QB leading the way. :D

[Gimpygod]

When there were discussions Elway was to be traded to Washington, he didnt cry about it or demand a trade. He may have been upset, but he handled it. Nice try 'Cutler nuthugger'.

Hey, revisionist history guy, Elway didn't like it at all and was getting ready to leave... guess what really happened? Go on, guess... That's right, the idiotic coach who thought scheme was more important than having John F'n Elway got the boot.

You just got pwned! join me in a happy dance:elefant:

[topscribe]

All AFC teams were bad in that period. Madden has said so much shit over the years I cant believe anyone quotes him.

Bull crap. What a bunch of absolute bull crap. I lived that era. I saw Pittsburgh,
Oakland, Cleveland, etc., etc. Live. As an adult. You really have a warped illusion
of history, Clay.

And you call what Madden said "shit"? Wow. You have lost all sense of reality.

You worry me, Clay . . . :tsk:

-----

[claymore]

No kidding they were good. They had the better QB leading the way. :D

Noone is denying that. We will have to wait for Cutlers career to be over before it is true though.

[Northman]

Hey, revisionist history guy, Elway didn't like it at all and was getting ready to leave... guess what really happened? Go on, guess... That's right, the idiotic coach who thought scheme was more important than having John F'n Elway got the boot.

You just got pwned! join me in a happy dance:elefant:

Actually, John went and talked to Bowlen just like Jay did.......uh oh.....

[topscribe]

Hey, revisionist history guy, Elway didn't like it at all and was getting ready to leave... guess what really happened? Go on, guess... That's right, the idiotic coach who thought scheme was more important than having John F'n Elway got the boot.

You just got pwned! join me in a happy dance:elefant:
Did you really say that?

Why don't you go root for some other team?

-----

[GEM]

Hey, revisionist history guy, Elway didn't like it at all and was getting ready to leave... guess what really happened? Go on, guess... That's right, the idiotic coach who thought scheme was more important than having John F'n Elway got the boot.

You just got pwned! join me in a happy dance:elefant:

Elway was important enough to keep, Cutler wasn't. :whistle: Sorry, I had to borrow this to make my point. :laugh:

[GEM]

Noone is denying that. We will have to wait for Cutlers career to be over before it is true though.

Oh but Clay....remember Cutler > Elway...

[claymore]

Bull crap. What a bunch of absolute bull crap. I lived that era. I saw Pittsburgh,
Oakland, Cleveland, etc., etc. Live. As an adult. You really have a warped illusion
of history, Clay.

And you call what Madden said "shit"? Wow. You have lost all sense of reality.

You worry me, Clay . . . :tsk:

-----

How many AFC teams won the SB from 1985 to 1997?

[slim]

Can't we all just get along?

[topscribe]

I cannot believe we have people on this BRONCOS board, trashing Elway to exalt Cutler.

I cannot believe this. :tsk:

-----

[Northman]

I cannot believe we have people on this BRONCOS board, trashing Elway to exalt Cutler.

I cannot believe this. :tsk:

-----

Oh, you can believe it. :lol:

[topscribe]

How many AFC teams won the SB from 1985 to 1997?

Okay, let me say this again:

I SAW THEM PLAY.

-----

[GEM]

How many AFC teams won the SB from 1985 to 1997?

So not winning the SB means that a whole conference is bad? :confused: Were there no conference Championships those years? Did they just not show up?

Just because the AFC didn't win the SB doesn't mean that the AFC had bad teams (as you are claiming) during that span.

[claymore]

Oh but Clay....remember Cutler > Elway...

Thats your opinion Gem. I just dont buy off on the legend of ELway taking subpar teams to the SB and losing because the teams sucked.

I think we (you guys) remember Elway being alot better than he actually was.

I loved the guy, but he had his faults. On and off the field. Just like everyone else.

[GEM]

Thats your opinion Gem. I just dont buy off on the legend of ELway taking subpar teams to the SB and losing because the teams sucked.

I think we (you guys) remember Elway being alot better than he actually was.

I loved the guy, but he had his faults. On and off the field. Just like everyone else.

You're damn right he had his faults, but I remember those years fondly, can't say the same for the Cutler era.

[Ravage!!!]

Just as jay should not have started his rookie season but circumstances changed that . jay was not ready for the complex offense INfact some could say he still may not be ready for NFL quality DB's

So what is the issue if he does not start this year.

How about we wait until eh draft is done before we all (some) sing about the demise of the franchise.

I know that you do not like Josh so what is new with the hate?

lets give it through tomorrow evening at the conclusion of the daft to see if all the holes are not filled with quality choices. It is not like there was only ONE ILB, OC, NT, or OLG in the draft. This was one of the deepest of the drafts in many years for these spots and most say the drop f from #1 to even #4 is not all that large..

zchiil put till after have seen what he can do.


Jay IMPROVED the offense in scoring, and broke a record for multible TDs in consecutive games as a rookie.

I know all yo9u want to do is bring Cutler into every subject, and do your best to insult.. but all you do is continue to show how little you know.

[Lonestar]

Am I the only one who realizes we just got Tebow for basically NOTHING? We traded back twice to acquire the WR playmaker that many here were coveting. We got him. And for our troubles, we got some extra picks. We turned those picks into Tim Tebow and STILL HAVE AN EXTRA 3rd ROUNDER FOR OUR TROUBLES.

You all are a trip. Gotta find sumthin to bitch about.

Whether you like the kid or not, ya can't question his heart, toughness or work ethic. At the very least, he is a wildcat option and a goalline terror. At the best, McDaniels is a genius. The jury is still out. But again, what did we really lose to get this guy?

Just how many deep red zone TD's have we had over the years from the QB bootlegging it in. There have been fewer of them since Jake left but it used to be a staple of our offense.

one would think it is not something we have ever done before.

As long as he does not think he is the next also that can throw the ball we are OK with this. Everything that is bad about Tebow (supposedly) is coachable, and from what I had heard about him he is IF anything coachable.

One of the most athletic QB ever coming out of college, had a combine that was off the charts for QB's set for broke records in the drills. In fact had beter times in areas that some if not all of the WR's and Rb's (what I have heard).

How can this be bad. Because he does not immediately start? FEW Qb's that start day one are successful on their own. we have the luxury of grooming him and teaching him the finer parts of being a NFL QB while he is learning behind a VEteran that is going to play lights out in his "contract" year.

folks how is that bad?

[claymore]

So not winning the SB means that a whole conference is bad? :confused: Were there no conference Championships those years? Did they just not show up?

Just because the AFC didn't win the SB doesn't mean that the AFC had bad teams (as you are claiming) during that span.

The parity was nowhere near what it is today. The 2 conferences were nowhere near close in talent. NFC dominated in every way.

[Northman]

Thats your opinion Gem. I just dont buy off on the legend of ELway taking subpar teams to the SB and losing because the teams sucked.

I think we (you guys) remember Elway being alot better than he actually was.

I loved the guy, but he had his faults. On and off the field. Just like everyone else.

I think your recollection is a bit fuzzy. Elway was REALLY that good. Was he perfect? Nah. But he was damn good and led the organization to 5 SB appearances. Jay has a LONG way to go before he can even be mentioned in the same breathe as John. Sad, but true.

[Ravage!!!]

Okay, let me say this again:

I SAW THEM PLAY.

-----

:lol:

I can't help laugh at this, top..because you have seen both Plummer and Orton play, and you continue to tell us how GOOD they were/are as well!! :lol:

Hard to take your observations as some sign of 'truth' in this matter :D

[claymore]

You're damn right he had his faults, but I remember those years fondly, can't say the same for the Cutler era.

I remember them both fondly. Im curious if you guys will hate Orton when he is gone.

[topscribe]

So not winning the SB means that a whole conference is bad? :confused: Were there no conference Championships those years? Did they just not show up?

Just because the AFC didn't win the SB doesn't mean that the AFC had bad teams (as you are claiming) during that span.

Exactly. Denver, Pittsburgh, Oakland, Kansas City, New England, and others won
far more games against NFC teams than they lost. That is how they were able to
achieve the good W-L records they had. To deny the overall parity is not to know
anything about that era.

-----

[GEM]

I remember them both fondly. Im curious if you guys will hate Orton when he is gone.

I like Orton as a guy but I hate him as a QB, so probably. :lol: My nickname for him, the fainting goat, will live forever.

[topscribe]

:lol:

I can't help laugh at this, top..because you have seen both Plummer and Orton play, and you continue to tell us how GOOD they were/are as well!! :lol:

Hard to take your observations as some sign of 'truth' in this matter :D

This coming from you, of all people. :tsk:

Sorry, Ravage, I'm not in the mood to wallow around in your sty . . .

-----

[GEM]

Jay IMPROVED the offense in scoring, and broke a record for multible TDs in consecutive games as a rookie.

I know all yo9u want to do is bring Cutler into every subject, and do your best to insult.. but all you do is continue to show how little you know.

Actually, SOCALORADO brought Cutler into this thread. ;) And it's been continued throughout by many others, myself included.

So let's, stop with that last baiting remark in your post and stick to the conversation instead of the poster's habits.

[Northman]

I dont hate Orton, i just think he is an average QB. Plummer was the same way to me. But John was above and beyond any QB Denver has had. Jay has some nice potential and has put up some pretty stats out of necessity but he isnt nearly on the same level as athlete or HOF'r that Elway is. Maybe if he leads the Bears to 5 SB's i might change my mind.

[topscribe]

Actually, SOCALORADO brought Cutler into this thread. ;) And it's been continued throughout by many others, myself included.

So let's, stop with that last baiting remark in your post and stick to the conversation instead of the poster's habits.

Ravage just mad a remark about how little you know? Ravage? :lol:

-----

[topscribe]

The parity was nowhere near what it is today. The 2 conferences were nowhere near close in talent. NFC dominated in every way.

Bullshit. Pure bullshit.

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Actually, SOCALORADO brought Cutler into this thread. ;) And it's been continued throughout by many others, myself included.

So let's, stop with that last baiting remark in your post and stick to the conversation instead of the poster's habits.

He quoted a post, of MINE, that didn't entail Cutler.. but the topic at hand. That didn't involve past QBs, but he was sure to bring it into the conversation nontheless.

[claymore]

I think your recollection is a bit fuzzy. Elway was REALLY that good. Was he perfect? Nah. But he was damn good and led the organization to 5 SB appearances. Jay has a LONG way to go before he can even be mentioned in the same breathe as John. Sad, but true.

Elway is the measuring stick. But you guys are remembering him better than he was. Tons of interceptions, fumbles, and erratic passes. The guys career QB rating was like 79.

He had his moments. But he was faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from perfect.

[Az Snake]

Watch your blood pressure guys.
We have two more days of draft deals left.

[Ravage!!!]

Its not Bullshit.... the NFC was kicking the AFC's ass for 13 straight years. With a combined Super Bowl scores of 490 to 266. THats a 17 point difference PER Super Bowl.

The NFC was the much stronger Conference during that time period. Thats really not that hard to get.

[Ravage!!!]

Elway is the measuring stick. But you guys are remembering him better than he was. Tons of interceptions, fumbles, and erratic passes. The guys career QB rating was like 79.

He had his moments. But he was faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from perfect.

But you are exaggerating his faults. I know that is hard to do, I know we haven't seen people EXAGGERATE teh faults around here in regards to former/past QBs.... but the QB rating? Really? Clay, you are better than this.

[claymore]

Bullshit. Pure bullshit.

-----

So it was pure luck that the AFC went 13 years without a super bowl win?

[claymore]

But you are exaggerating his faults. I know that is hard to do, I know we haven't seen people EXAGGERATE teh faults around here in regards to former/past QBs.... but the QB rating? Really? Clay, you are better than this.

His career QB rating was 79.9. Do you not like QB ratings? I know some dont like them. I do as a general summary of the player.

http://www.nfl.com/players/johnelway/profile?id=ELW276861

[Gimpygod]

Did you really say that?

Why don't you go root for some other team?

-----

Actually that was all positive toward Elway, not sure how you're reading it. I'm pointing out that the concept of character or a particular coaches scheme being more important than player ability is patently false. And then I pointed it out with that example.

[Lonestar]

wait ...orton had a top 10 defense..7th overall...cutler had the 29th ...kinda a bit differant:confused: and just where were those defenses late in the year.

IIRC they were top three until about game six or so after that were mostly no shows. and the last 3 or four games well maybe some of them may not even have suited up.

[topscribe]

So it was pure luck that the AFC went 13 years without a super bowl win?

Why do you keep pointing out single contests between two teams? Didn't Gem
already call you on that?

Give us the entire history. The interconference W-L record for alllllll the teams
through allllll the years. Then come back and make your point.

Oh, but you won't do that. You might find you were wrong. And don't suggest I do
it. You were the one to make the claim that allllllll the AFC teams were bad back then.

-----

[claymore]

Why do you keep pointing out single contests between two teams? Didn't Gem
already call you on that?

Give us the entire history. The interconference W-L record for alllllll the teams
through allllll the years. Then come back and make your point.

Oh, but you won't do that. You might find you were wrong. And don't suggest I do
it. You were the one to make the claim that allllllll the AFC teams were bad back then.

-----
I never said all the afc teams were bad. If I said it, i didnt mean to word it that way and I apologize.

The NFC was way better as a whole. I am not going to look anything up because im pretty sure its wdely known to everyone but a few here.

Its one of the reasons we got SPANKED the first 3 of Elway SB's.

[Gimpygod]

Elway was important enough to keep, Cutler wasn't. :whistle: Sorry, I had to borrow this to make my point. :laugh:

Feel free to use me any way you feel necessary... and did I mention you look Lurvely?

[topscribe]

His career QB rating was 79.9. Do you not like QB ratings? I know some dont like them. I do as a general summary of the player.

http://www.nfl.com/players/johnelway/profile?id=ELW276861

Oh, now you're into stats? You surely didn't like them when I was presenting them.

How about this one? 47 come-from-behind victories. Still a record.

I have an idea: Why don't you poll the experts around the league? Who do they
think is the better QB: Elway or Cutler? One caveat, however: I hope you don't
mind getting laughed at. :coffee:

-----

[G_Money]

So it was pure luck that the AFC went 13 years without a super bowl win?

Nope, it's just that the Juggernaut teams were formed in the NFC.

Niners/Redskins/Giants in the 80s, and Cowboys/Niners in the early 90s. The AFC juggernaut teams were the Broncos in the 80s and Bills in the early 90s, and they couldn't match up. Free agency wasn't really spreading the wealth in the 80s.

But regular team vs. regular team?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1769


BTW pre-Super Bowl the AFC was plus 18 against the NFC in the 80s. That's not insignificant. It could certainly be construed as "beating up on" the NFC depending on one's standards for dominance.

Unfortunately in those days people tended to view each and every Super Bowl as the entire AFC against the entire NFC rather than simply team against team like they actually were. And in any playoff situation all that maters is how Team A specifically stacks up against Team B.


The AFC juggernauts were flawed in ways the NFC teams were not.

But the average teams from both leagues were pretty even.

~G

[OrangeHoof]

Well, since it's Peter Prickso, I'm not putting much stock in it but I do find it fitting that McDaniels' fate is now tied in with Tebow's. If they both flop, we're looking for a new coach by 2014. If they both succeed, well, maybe McDaniels really is a mad genius.

[Slick]

Get E hit on GEM.

ROR.

[claymore]

Oh, now you're into stats? You surely didn't like them when I was presenting them.

How about this one? 47 come-from-behind victories. Still a record.

I have an idea: Why don't you poll the experts around the league? Who do they
think is the better QB: Elway or Cutler? One caveat, however: I hope you don't
mind getting laughed at. :coffee:

-----

I swear to God you ask me this everytime we get into it! YES!!!! I LOVE STATS!!!!! LOVE THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE PROOF OF AN OCCURENCE!

I never said Cutler was better. We need Cutlers career to play out before that can be said though.

47 come from behind victories is where I said and have always said Elways greatness is. Its when there is 2 minutes left, and he doesnt have time to think.

Its the other 58 minutes of mediocrity that bothers me.

[Poet]

The parity was nowhere near what it is today. The 2 conferences were nowhere near close in talent. NFC dominated in every way.

This is accurate. The NFL is famous for having spans or phases where one conference is much better than the other.

About five years ago or so the AFC was so much better than the NFC that it literally was just the Eagles and another random NFC team that was real good that year who had a chance to compete in the SB.

I don't really get the weird Elway bashing, or at least implied bashing, but Elway played in a weaker conference against weaker competition and got murdered in the SB. It didn't matter who the QB for the Broncos were, having a big leg up on QB means nothing if the other team is better everywhere else.

On the flip side, if you took the teams that spanked Denver and switched QBs the result probably would have been the same.

[topscribe]

I never said all the afc teams were bad. If I said it, i didnt mean to word it that way and I apologize.

The NFC was way better as a whole. I am not going to look anything up because im pretty sure its wdely known to everyone but a few here.

Its one of the reasons we got SPANKED the first 3 of Elway SB's.

Okay, I'll do a partial for you:

In the years 1986-1989, Here is Denver's W-L in the regular seaon against the NFC:

10 wins, 5 losses, 1 tie.

-----

[Poet]

Claymore, QB rating means nothing.

It was invented and implemented when throwing the ball 20 times was a lot.

[topscribe]

I swear to God you ask me this everytime we get into it! YES!!!! I LOVE STATS!!!!! LOVE THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE PROOF OF AN OCCURENCE!

I never said Cutler was better. We need Cutlers career to play out before that can be said though.

47 come from behind victories is where I said and have always said Elways greatness is. Its when there is 2 minutes left, and he doesnt have time to think.

Its the other 58 minutes of mediocrity that bothers me.

And there goes your credibility in your use of the term "mediocrity" . . . :coffee:

-----

[claymore]

This is accurate. The NFL is famous for having spans or phases where one conference is much better than the other.

About five years ago or so the AFC was so much better than the NFC that it literally was just the Eagles and another random NFC team that was real good that year who had a chance to compete in the SB.

I don't really get the weird Elway bashing, or at least implied bashing, but Elway played in a weaker conference against weaker competition and got murdered in the SB. It didn't matter who the QB for the Broncos were, having a big leg up on QB means nothing if the other team is better everywhere else.

On the flip side, if you took the teams that spanked Denver and switched QBs the result probably would have been the same.

Im not trying to bash Elway. When trying to disprove the legend that he took these shitty teams to the Superbowls is a myth, you have to expose some of the realities.

People get butt hurt when you question their hero.

[Northman]

Elway is the measuring stick. But you guys are remembering him better than he was. Tons of interceptions, fumbles, and erratic passes. The guys career QB rating was like 79.

He had his moments. But he was faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from perfect.

Qb rating has nothing to do with it. Its about win and losses. Its about leading your team to the big dance. Its about leading your team to a championship. I already said he wasnt perfect but Jay is nowhere in his class. If you can admit that right as it stands than we are in agreement. But the thing is can you even come to terms with that?

[Northman]

Im not trying to bash Elway. When trying to disprove the legend that he took these shitty teams to the Superbowls is a myth, you have to expose some of the realities.

People get butt hurt when you question their hero.

Pot meet kettle.

[claymore]

And there goes your credibility in your use of the term "mediocrity" . . . :coffee:

-----

Elway had a career 79 QB rating, 56% completion percentage, and turned the ball over Alot. He had 5 years where he had more Int's than TD's (1 was tied).

I think you remember a guy for more than he was.

[Poet]

Im not trying to bash Elway. When trying to disprove the legend that he took these shitty teams to the Superbowls is a myth, you have to expose some of the realities.

People get butt hurt when you question their hero.

Clay, ironically I was kind of defending your point.

All QB's had their flaws. Elway lost more SB's than he won. Montana's stats were good, not great and his teams were stacked. Marino never won a ring. Tom Brady's clutchness is overrated and the one time he had to win a SB with under a minute left he didn't do it. Peyton Manning had a history of choking and has one ring. Favre was so boom or bust that it's frustrating.

It goes on and on and on.

But, Cutler has to prove that he's better than any other QB. My guy, Carson Palmer is still playing, but he's a worse QB than Elway.

In times that I need to summarize my point in a lone quote, I turn to the Nature Boy Ric Flair.....

To be the man, you got to beat the man.

Until Cutler does the things that Elway has and then some he's worse.

[topscribe]

This is accurate. The NFL is famous for having spans or phases where one conference is much better than the other.

About five years ago or so the AFC was so much better than the NFC that it literally was just the Eagles and another random NFC team that was real good that year who had a chance to compete in the SB.

I don't really get the weird Elway bashing, or at least implied bashing, but Elway played in a weaker conference against weaker competition and got murdered in the SB. It didn't matter who the QB for the Broncos were, having a big leg up on QB means nothing if the other team is better everywhere else.

On the flip side, if you took the teams that spanked Denver and switched QBs the result probably would have been the same.

In the case of the NYG and Washington games it might have been worse.
Elway was far superior to Simms and Williams . . .

-----

[Northman]

Clay, ironically I was kind of defending your point.

All QB's had their flaws. Elway lost more SB's than he won. Montana's stats were good, not great and his teams were stacked. Marino never won a ring. Tom Brady's clutchness is overrated and the one time he had to win a SB with under a minute left he didn't do it. Peyton Manning had a history of choking and has one ring. Favre was so boom or bust that it's frustrating.

It goes on and on and on.

But, Cutler has to prove that he's better than any other QB. My guy, Carson Palmer is still playing, but he's a worse QB than Elway.

In times that I need to summarize my point in a lone quote, I turn to the Nature Boy Ric Flair.....

To be the man, you got to beat the man.

Until Cutler does the things that Elway has and then some he's worse.

/debate

[claymore]

Qb rating has nothing to do with it. Its about win and losses. Its about leading your team to the big dance. Its about leading your team to a championship. I already said he wasnt perfect but Jay is nowhere in his class. If you can admit that right as it stands than we are in agreement. But the thing is can you even come to terms with that?
All I can judge Cutler on is his first 4 years. And he has been a better QB in those first 4 years than Elway was.

I doubt Cutler will have the success, and become the face of a franchise like Elway has, but it is possible.

Elway is great, he is a legend. Cutler is not.

Pot meet kettle.

I dont get butthurt when facts are presented. general name calling of anyone, to include McD irritates me.

[Lonestar]

Actually, John went and talked to Bowlen just like Jay did.......uh oh.....


Just when did jay talk to Pat, guess a I missed those chats as it seemed to me jay was traded because he would not talk to Pat. But then I live in a different state so I might have missed it. :salute:

[Poet]

In the case of the NYG and Washington games it probably would have been worse.
Elway was far superior to Simms and Schroeder . . .

-----

Yup. That's the thing, you play where you play. It's why I never really bought into the whole "winning is the most important thing when judging a player," argument.

If Montana and Brady are the standards then something is wrong. I can't think of a lone reason that would suggest Elway/Marino/Manning couldn't have won in those places.

[Gimpygod]

All I can judge Cutler on is his first 4 years. And he has been a better QB in those first 4 years than Elway was.

I doubt Cutler will have the success, and become the face of a franchise like Elway has, but it is possible.

Elway is great, he is a legend. Cutler is not.


I dont get butthurt when facts are presented. general name calling of anyone, to include McD irritates me.

But I hate McDaniels, can I get a doctor's note or something exempting me from your irritation? Because I'm going to have to call him names... it's mandatory. Mcmelonhead! See? It's like Tourette's but just abouut him.

[claymore]

Claymore, QB rating means nothing.

It was invented and implemented when throwing the ball 20 times was a lot.I dont like to use it in an argument. But I believe it is a good general summary of ones performance.


Clay, ironically I was kind of defending your point.

All QB's had their flaws. Elway lost more SB's than he won. Montana's stats were good, not great and his teams were stacked. Marino never won a ring. Tom Brady's clutchness is overrated and the one time he had to win a SB with under a minute left he didn't do it. Peyton Manning had a history of choking and has one ring. Favre was so boom or bust that it's frustrating.

It goes on and on and on.

But, Cutler has to prove that he's better than any other QB. My guy, Carson Palmer is still playing, but he's a worse QB than Elway.

In times that I need to summarize my point in a lone quote, I turn to the Nature Boy Ric Flair.....

To be the man, you got to beat the man.

Until Cutler does the things that Elway has and then some he's worse.

I agree a 100%.

This argument has morphed into a debate on how good Elways "shitty" teams were.

I simply dont think Elway was as good as people remember, and his teams werent near as bad as people think.

[Northman]

All I can judge Cutler on is his first 4 years. And he has been a better QB in those first 4 years than Elway was.

Stat wise yes, but stats arent everything when defining a great QB.


I doubt Cutler will have the success, and become the face of a franchise like Elway has, but it is possible.

Possible, but not even close yet. First, he has to at least lead a team to the playoffs.


Elway is great, he is a legend. Cutler is not.

We are in agreement.


I dont get butthurt when facts are presented. general name calling of anyone, to include McD irritates me.

Depends what kind of facts you are presenting. You put a lot of stock on stats alone and i think thats why people come down on you about it. But again, stats dont totally define a great QB. When all is said and done no one really cares about guys like Marino no matter how pretty his stats were. Same with Kelly. So, from that standpoint if you love Jay and he gets into the HOF by having high stats than thats great if thats the bottom line for you as a fan. For me, i want championships and at the very least an appearance.

[Northman]

Just when did jay talk to Pat, guess a I missed those chats as it seemed to me jay was traded because he would not talk to Pat. But then I live in a different state so I might have missed it. :salute:

That was my point Jr. Went right over your head. :tsk:

[Poet]

Marino is one of the standards of excellence at QB.

Jim Kelly....well he's in the HoF for a reason.

[Northman]

Marino is one of the standards of excellence at QB.



Sure, stat wise.

[topscribe]

Elway had a career 79 QB rating, 56% completion percentage, and turned the ball over Alot. He had 5 years where he had more Int's than TD's (1 was tied).

I think you remember a guy for more than he was.

See, that is the problem with not taking all factors into consideration. If you are
going to use stats, you need to consider the differences in eras and all the
differences, such as rules changes, etc.

I remember Elway as a 40+ year-old man that I was back then, not a star-
struck teeny-bopper. I remember going into the second half of games, hoping
to see Elway play some football now. He dug some holes. The difference is, he
could dig his way out, and he did more often than not. That is the difference in
John Elway.

Otherwise, refer to Northman's post #175.

-----

[claymore]

Stat wise yes, but stats arent everything when defining a great QB.



Possible, but not even close yet. First, he has to at least lead a team to the playoffs.



We are in agreement.



Depends what kind of facts you are presenting. You put a lot of stock on stats alone and i think thats why people come down on you about it. But again, stats dont totally define a great QB. When all is said and done no one really cares about guys like Marino no matter how pretty his stats were. Same with Kelly. So, from that standpoint if you love Jay and he gets into the HOF by having high stats than thats great if thats the bottom line for you as a fan. For me, i want championships and at the very least an appearance.I like stats. Its proof. Its something that can be measured. But I realize they arent the whole story.

If Stats were the judge of the HOF Elway wouldnt have made it. It was the 2SB's wins that got him there. It was probably sealed and in the bag when he did the SB spin thing for the first down in SB 32.

[Northman]

I like stats. Its proof. Its something that can be measured. But I realize they arent the whole story.

If Stats were the judge of the HOF Elway wouldnt have made it. It was the 2SB's wins that got him there. It was probably sealed and in the bag when he did the SB spin thing for the first down in SB 32.

Absolutely. Montana had a very high QB rating along with SB wins. So it does play its part but it also gets judged by surrounding talent, etc.

[Lonestar]

Not so sure the John vs jay first four years comparison should be be made without realizing that John had not nearly the talent level surrounding him as jay did. At least on O. the defense is pretty much moot.

but show me a WR that had BM's talent for that matter how many really good Oline guys did John have, and then there was running backs. and while TS was sometimes talent at TE IIRC we did not have someone like that for John those years. and then lets see who was the coaches for both?

Those to me were a little better comparisons. Johns stats or QBR during that time frame were 79.9 but in his last four years UIIRC it was never less that 85 or better.

jay has a lot of potential to be as good or better than JOhn was but he also has the potential to be the next Jeff George lots of talent but not much discipline .

[claymore]

See, that is the problem with not taking all factors into consideration. If you are
going to use stats, you need to consider the differences in eras and all the
differences, such as rules changes, etc.

I remember Elway as a 40+ year-old man that I was back then, not a star-
struck teeny-bopper. I remember going into the second half of games, hoping
to see Elway play some football now. He dug some holes. The difference is, he
could dig his way out, and he did more often than not. That is the difference in
John Elway.

Otherwise, refer to Northman's post #175.

-----

I cant take everything into account because Im not God. I would say a good portion of Elway's comeback wins were because of holes he dug the team into.

I love Elway, but I dont think he was a very cerebral QB. He was prone to doing some stupid shit.

But when he was on, noone has ever been better.

[claymore]

Not so sure the John vs jay first four years comparison should be be made without realizing that John had not nearly the talent level surrounding him as jay did. At least on O. the defense is pretty much moot.

but show me a WR that had BM's talent for that matter how many really good Oline guys did John have, and then there was running backs. and while TS was sometimes talent at TE IIRC we did not have someone like that for John those years. and then lets see who was the coaches for both?

Those to me were a little better comparisons. Johns stats or QBR during that time frame were 79.9 but in his last four years UIIRC it was never less that 85 or better.

jay has a lot of potential to be as good or better than JOhn was but he also has the potential to be the next Jeff George lots of talent but not much discipline .
Elway had better defenses and comparible talent at WR. Running game wasnt as good, but it can be said Cutler had alot more turnover there as well.

[topscribe]

I cant take everything into account because Im not God. I would say a good portion of Elway's comeback wins were because of holes he dug the team into.

I love Elway, but I dont think he was a very cerebral QB. He was prone to doing some stupid shit.

But when he was on, noone has ever been better.

Nah, I think Elway too often had to become Elway after Reeves prevented him
from doing so. I believe, in fact, that was part of the problems between the two.
The play pattern would be run, run, pass, punt. Then in the second half, Elway
had to pass. And he came to life. Time and again, I saw that.

The Broncos often drove me nuts back then . . .

-----

[claymore]

Nah, I think Elway too often had to become Elway after Reeves prevented him
from doing so. I believe, in fact, that was part of the problems between the two.
The play pattern would be run, run, pass, punt. Then in the second half, Elway
had to pass. And he came to life. Time and again, I saw that.

The Broncos often drove me nuts back then . . .

-----
Yes. I would say GOSH DAmnit Elway!!! 2 times a game and I love you Elway 3 times a game. :laugh:

[Lonestar]

Elway had better defenses and comparible talent at WR. Running game wasnt as good, but it can be said Cutler had alot more turnover there as well.

no the tres amigos were not comparable to BM, eddie, TS at all. sorry but John Made those WR better not so sure that jay did that for that latter group.
as far as turn over sure but then it was more of an injury thingy than 2 runs up the gut and then here John bail us out.

Not to mention no Clady, Lepsis, Harris, Kuper, nalin, casey or hamilton when he was still decent and NO ZBS to get a running game going.



John could carry that O, but jay was surrounded by play makers. IMO

[Skacorica]

The Broncos will not get another dollar of mine until Tebow and McDaniels are gone. They WILL fail, and I will be sitting here enjoying every minute of it. I have been a Broncos die-hard since 1983 and this is the end. I have never felt this negatively about a team I love.

Thats cool, they are getting more from me, and I probably make more than you. Call it an upgrade.

[Northman]

Yes. I would say GOSH DAmnit Elway!!! 2 times a game and I love you Elway 3 times a game. :laugh:


Ironically, after GB fumbles to start the second half and John threw the pick i was doing just that. :lol:

[arapaho2]

and just where were those defenses late in the year.

IIRC they were top three until about game six or so after that were mostly no shows. and the last 3 or four games well maybe some of them may not even have suited up.


ohh so now your picking parts of the season to prove one point...ignoring the others that dont..

ok...but arent you one of the ones that firmely believes cutler screwed the team over all three season here..specially in 08...you know when the team defense allowed over 30 points per game in the last 4 games

i mean hey if its still cutlers fault why not ortons:coffee:

[arapaho2]

Sure....Elway put more points on the board. Who overcame a defense?



you really dont have a clue do you...its ok sis...:lol:

[broncobryce]

Every thread turns in to the same thing.

[Italianmobstr7]

The Broncos will not get another dollar of mine until Tebow and McDaniels are gone. They WILL fail, and I will be sitting here enjoying every minute of it. I have been a Broncos die-hard since 1983 and this is the end. I have never felt this negatively about a team I love.

You are no true fan sir. True fans follow their team NO MATTER WHAT. Through thick and thin. People like Clay and Arapaho are pissed too, but even though they don't like McD they still would rather be wrong and see Denver succeed than fail and be right. We all have our own opinions, but I don't think I've seen anyone else on this board hope that the Denver Broncos fail. I've even seen most admit that they HOPE they are wrong and that McD is the coach that some of us think he is. You sir should have your fan card removed if you honestly feel this way and want the Denver Broncos to fail.

[arapaho2]

Yes, Rap. You tell me how things were back then. :coffee:

-----

well for one ...i didnt have the denver news...didnt have satalite tv with denver stations..i had one local tv station..no internet..no instant access to denver news...i couldnt log on to the bronco website and see coaches interviews..player interviews....any news i got trickeld down and came on pre game shows

how bout you..you helped gore invent the internet and had coverage in that time?

[tomjonesrocks]

jay has a lot of potential to be as good or better than JOhn was but he also has the potential to be the next Jeff George lots of talent but not much discipline .

I'm still upset Jay is gone--until McD is fired or we go very deep in playoffs I'll never forgive McD for that. Inexcusable.

Still, no way in hell Cutler had the "potential to be better than John". Even if he has Elway's arm (I still maintain he does not) he does not possess John's leadership/intangibles or running ability.

Cutler's a very good QB--among the most talented in the current NFL surely--Elway was on another planet with the package he had.

I feel very uneasy about hoping Cutler will ultimately fail though. My nightmare (if not outright guess) is he'll take Chicago to a championship game if not a SB win at some point while we'll be watching a 4-12 team. He's a stud and will put it all together eventually.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I'll make no argument beyond this post, but I still don't get the Cutler addictions. Sure, he was fun to watch, but he blew just as many games as he kept us in. Did everyone forget the embarassing losses to KC and Oakland? I know our D sucked, but dude did some terrible things and is keeping the pace so far in Chicago.

[hamrob]

What it comes down to is that some guys just despise McD. Why? Because, he's young...he's short...he's inexperienced...and, he's cocky!

[Ravage!!!]

I Did everyone forget the embarassing losses to KC and Oakland?

You mean last year? Cutler wasn't on the team.

[topscribe]

well for one ...i didnt have the denver news...didnt have satalite tv with denver stations..i had one local tv station..no internet..no instant access to denver news...i couldnt log on to the bronco website and see coaches interviews..player interviews....any news i got trickeld down and came on pre game shows

how bout you..you helped gore invent the internet and had coverage in that time?

I had three daily papers, four local TV stations, multiple radio stations and talk
shows, football and other sports magazines and publications, and the Broncos
held spring training in Greeley, Colorado, my home town and about five minutes
from where my dad lived near Glenmare Park.

It took a bit more effort and scouring than it does today, but we're not any
closer to present day news and what is doing on in the FO today than we were
then. The only difference is we have greater access to history and what did
happen back then, but it isn't presenting much more to us who lived it than
what we knew back then.

-----

[Superchop 7]

I thought the pick was a reach, sure I love Tebow, but he is no-where near the talent Claussen is.

For once, I really wasn't "into" the draft. I'm back where I was a few years ago, not much faith in the front office.

[Medford Bronco]

Isnt Prisco the one who picked the Raiders to go to the Super Bowl when they first got Randy Moss :lol:

[Medford Bronco]

I thought the pick was a reach, sure I love Tebow, but he is no-where near the talent Claussen is.

For once, I really wasn't "into" the draft. I'm back where I was a few years ago, not much faith in the front office.

I Agree, I would have rather had Claussen IMHO.

[Ravage!!!]

I thought the pick was a reach, sure I love Tebow, but he is no-where near the talent Claussen is.

For once, I really wasn't "into" the draft. I'm back where I was a few years ago, not much faith in the front office.

This is how I felt. I didn't really have a dog in the fight in this draft. After watching us move up to take Tebow.... move UP to take Tebow.... I just shook my head.

Just thinking... 'unbelievable'

[Gimpygod]

Nah, I think Elway too often had to become Elway after Reeves prevented him
from doing so. I believe, in fact, that was part of the problems between the two.
The play pattern would be run, run, pass, punt. Then in the second half, Elway
had to pass. And he came to life. Time and again, I saw that.

The Broncos often drove me nuts back then . . .

-----

specifically it was Sammie Winder left, Sammie Winder right (or up the middle), 20 yard pass and punt..