Which pick makes you Puke in your mouth?

[OldschoolFreak]

We all have our wants and strategies but for the most part I'm sure we're all just hoping for a draft outcome we're ok with. We're probably all a little flexible even if we don't get our faves as long as the team doesn't pursue our own particular nightmare scenario. What are yours? For me it's as follows:

1-Giving away the house to trade up to #1 for Bradford. Oh god, please no.

2-Assuming we actually pick at 11: Pouncey or Iupati. Both fine players but huge reaches in terms of value.

3-Anywhere in the first: Tebow. Please McD, control your hardon for this guy.

What am I missing? Who's next?

[claymore]

Pouncey at 11.

[MileHighCrew]

Tebow rounds 1-4 IF we get him in the 5th ok but not before that

[slim]

The first one.

We would have to trade our entire draft to get up to #1.

[CoachChaz]

1- Pouncey or Tebow higher than 25

2- Odrick anywhere in the 1st round

3- Alualu anywhere period (good player...just not in a 3-4)



I could probably live with anything else. bryant, Williams, McClain, Spoon...even Pouncey or Tebow late in the first

[EMB6903]

Taylor Mays in any round..... Pouncey or iupati in the top 25 or Odrick in the top 40.

[Ziggy]

1- Pouncey or Tebow higher than 25

2- Odrick anywhere in the 1st round

3- Alualu anywhere period (good player...just not in a 3-4)



I could probably live with anything else. bryant, Williams, McClain, Spoon...even Pouncey or Tebow late in the first

Alualu is one of the few 3-4 DE's that actually played as a 3-4 DE in college.

[Ziggy]

Dez Bryant at 11. Pouncey at 11.

[Northman]

First post easily.

[slim]

Taking Myron Rolle in the 6th would really chap my ass.

[underrated29]

pierre paul anywhere before 20....no no....29.

Clausen.

pounc/iupat/tebow at 11.

[Ravage!!!]

Taking Myron Rolle in the 6th would really chap my ass.

Now this one has me curious.... why?

[BroncoSojia]

Taking Myron Rolle in the 6th would really chap my ass.

why?

[Timmy!]

Slim, you sir are a fine fisherman. :salute:

[Italianmobstr7]

Trading for Bradford. OU Qb's suck in the pros and this guy is SOFT. I definitely do not want him to be our QB.

[slim]

I was just playing around.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled broadcast.

[Elevation inc]

taking pouncy at 11......

[rationalfan]

i hate "draft value." who cares if a guy isn't projected to go as high as you think he is. take him. it's all a crapshoot. nobody knows. nobody.

[SOCALORADO.]

1- Pouncey or Tebow higher than 25

2- Odrick anywhere in the 1st round

3- Alualu anywhere period (good player...just not in a 3-4)



I could probably live with anything else. bryant, Williams, McClain, Spoon...even Pouncey or Tebow late in the first

Pouncey at 11 is to me insane.
Tebow i can see in the 1st, but no higher than 19-20. And thats just cause 19 is ATL and they would be a trade partner possibly. I think in the case of Tebow and the 1st round, you gotta kinda give just a little, to get him and you cant take too many chances. So i wouldnt go crazy as long as DEN was to recieve a pick in the 3rd as well.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

McClain at 11. I just don't see whatever everyone else sees in him. He looks extraordinarily "average" to me.

Anybody else or trading down is fine with me.

[Buff]

i hate "draft value." who cares if a guy isn't projected to go as high as you think he is. take him. it's all a crapshoot. nobody knows. nobody.

I had a much more long winded post that basically said this same thing in another thread... I think 20 years ago no one cared about value, and nowadays everyone cares too much about value. Not saying it shouldn't be a factor, but I think some clubs have passed on great players because they were concerned about taking him in a certain slot.

I feel confident that almost anyone we get in the 1st round is going to help this football team... It's a great draft class.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

At #11: Jason Pierre-Paul, Derrick Morgan, Taylor Mays, Tim Tebow

[HORSEPOWER 56]

I had a much more long winded post that basically said this same thing in another thread... I think 20 years ago no one cared about value, and nowadays everyone cares too much about value. Not saying it shouldn't be a factor, but I think some clubs have passed on great players because they were concerned about taking him in a certain slot.

I feel confident that almost anyone we get in the 1st round is going to help this football team... It's a great draft class.

You mean kinda like fans and their obsession with player contracts and "overpaying" for players? It always seems when we talk about players getting a new contract, guys always say "I hope we don't overpay". WTF does that even mean? Everyone wants Dumervil to stay but not for "Demarcus Ware Money". Who really cares?

It's not like the Broncos are going to come to your door looking for you to "pony up" when it comes time to shell out his signing bonus! It's not enough to get all emotional about the play on the field. Nope we're all more than just Monday Morning QBs and Couch Coaches, we're all a bunch of armchair GMs who argue about everything from trades to draft picks to player contracts. Contracts being the most silly I can think of. Obviously if the owner and coach and player are happy with the contract, why aren't we?

That's the #1 thing we argue about that makes me go :confused: the most.

[claymore]

At #11: Jason Pierre-Paul, Derrick Morgan, Taylor Mays, Tim Tebow

Jason Pierre-Paul at 11 is so retarded its hard for me to even realize it as a possibility.

[slim]

Jason Pierre-Paul at 11 is so retarded its hard for me to even realize it as a possibility.

So, Clay Kiper Jr...who would be a good pick at #11.

[broncobryce]

Anyone picked by McD. They all suck.

[spikerman]

Dez Bryant at #11 or anywhere else in the first round. Too many other needs than WR. Having a dynamic receiver isn't as much of a necessity when you use an offense that rarely throws the ball more than 10 yards.

[SM19]

The Chiefs taking Eric Berry. Yikes.

[BroncoWave]

You mean kinda like fans and their obsession with player contracts and "overpaying" for players? It always seems when we talk about players getting a new contract, guys always say "I hope we don't overpay". WTF does that even mean? Everyone wants Dumervil to stay but not for "Demarcus Ware Money". Who really cares?

It's not like the Broncos are going to come to your door looking for you to "pony up" when it comes time to shell out his signing bonus! It's not enough to get all emotional about the play on the field. Nope we're all more than just Monday Morning QBs and Couch Coaches, we're all a bunch of armchair GMs who argue about everything from trades to draft picks to player contracts. Contracts being the most silly I can think of. Obviously if the owner and coach and player are happy with the contract, why aren't we?

That's the #1 thing we argue about that makes me go :confused: the most.

Have you ever heard of the salary cap? (yeah, I know we don't have one now, but it'll be put in the new CBA). People bitch about Dumvervil possibly getting Demarcus Ware money because giving him that much money could financially restrict us from bringing in other quality players.

And the "Obviously if the owner and coach and player are happy with the contract, why aren't we?" argument is terrible. Using this logic, you are never allowed to complain about a coach making a poor playcall because if he's the coach and if he was happy with the playcall, why not you? Or you can't complain about a ref making a bad call because if he was ok with that call, why not you?

I guess using your logic no one should ever question any decision anyone on the Broncos makes.

[NickelTG]

Hell no to Clausen..no to Pouncey

[claymore]

So, Clay Kiper Jr...who would be a good pick at #11.

Depends on who is there of course. But In my infinate wisdom I say Haden, Bryant, Dan Williams, Iupati are there at 11. I say we take Iupati.

Its boring, but we need some more talent on our line. And he is a big bag of corn fed talent.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

If we are eyeing Iupati, I'd prefer to try and trade back at least a few spots first. I'd rather go RT at #11. Plenty of top notch OTs which would not be considered reaches there. If the Rutgers OT drops to us, he's the one I want. Put him at RT and then trade Harris for a 4th rounder.

[slim]

Depends on who is there of course. But In my infinate wisdom I say Haden, Bryant, Dan Williams, Iupati are there at 11. I say we take Iupati.

Its boring, but we need some more talent on our line. And he is a big bag of corn fed talent.

I wouldn't mind some beef for the line.

So you are OK with Iupati but not with Pouncey? I don't think I would have a problem with either.

[nevcraw]

any second round draft pick that requres a first round pick from next year.. Oh wait..

Or - whomever seattle takes at 14.

[Buff]

You mean kinda like fans and their obsession with player contracts and "overpaying" for players? It always seems when we talk about players getting a new contract, guys always say "I hope we don't overpay". WTF does that even mean? Everyone wants Dumervil to stay but not for "Demarcus Ware Money". Who really cares?

It's not like the Broncos are going to come to your door looking for you to "pony up" when it comes time to shell out his signing bonus! It's not enough to get all emotional about the play on the field. Nope we're all more than just Monday Morning QBs and Couch Coaches, we're all a bunch of armchair GMs who argue about everything from trades to draft picks to player contracts. Contracts being the most silly I can think of. Obviously if the owner and coach and player are happy with the contract, why aren't we?

That's the #1 thing we argue about that makes me go :confused: the most.

Well, if every year were uncapped like this year, then I'm 100% on board with you. Pat Bowlen has to write the checks, not me. Spend to get the talent.

But I think the reason some people (including myself) have talked about not wanting to sign Doom to Ware type money is because then it restricts your ability to bring in other top tier players because of cap implications. There are only a couple "franchise player" type contracts to go around, so you just want to make sure that's your guy for the next 5-7 years before you commit the $$. Jamarcus Russell is the classic example-- if it weren't for the $35 million guaranteed investment they made up front, then he would be bagging groceries... But they're holding out hope that they'll get some return on their investment, which has handcuffed them on bringing in another high paid QB.

Not exactly the same situation with Doom, but the guy is coming off a career year that he might not ever match again--so I think he deserves a significant raise, I just don't know that he's proven himself to be an elite talent that ought to be among the highest paid in the league.

But it's an interesting argument you raise, because it definitely centers around the "value" concept which I just railed against. :D

[honz]

None, because McD is a god and knows best.

[claymore]

If we are eyeing Iupati, I'd prefer to try and trade back at least a few spots first. I'd rather go RT at #11. Plenty of top notch OTs which would not be considered reaches there. If the Rutgers OT drops to us, he's the one I want. Put him at RT and then trade Harris for a 4th rounder.
If the right trade happened, then I would chance it. But this team needs and absolute starter from day one. We cant risk holding a pick where we have to get someone that we dont really want.




I wouldn't mind some beef for the line.

So you are OK with Iupati but not with Pouncey? I don't think I would have a problem with either.

Id rather take a guard at 11 then a center. But My true uneducated fear of Pouncey............ Im scared of him because Tebow is bashed as not having taken that many snaps from Center. I cant really articulate it more than that. Its like being scared of ghosts or something.

[dogfish]

tebow. . . and any scenario where we burn through picks trading up like we did last year. . . :doh:

earl thomas at 11 is another scenario that would piss me off. . .

[TXBRONC]

Dez Bryant at #11 or anywhere else in the first round. Too many other needs than WR. Having a dynamic receiver isn't as much of a necessity when you use an offense that rarely throws the ball more than 10 yards.

Ok but what do we do about the void that we now have at wide receiver?

[dogfish]

You mean kinda like fans and their obsession with player contracts and "overpaying" for players? It always seems when we talk about players getting a new contract, guys always say "I hope we don't overpay". WTF does that even mean? Everyone wants Dumervil to stay but not for "Demarcus Ware Money". Who really cares?

It's not like the Broncos are going to come to your door looking for you to "pony up" when it comes time to shell out his signing bonus! It's not enough to get all emotional about the play on the field. Nope we're all more than just Monday Morning QBs and Couch Coaches, we're all a bunch of armchair GMs who argue about everything from trades to draft picks to player contracts. Contracts being the most silly I can think of. Obviously if the owner and coach and player are happy with the contract, why aren't we?

That's the #1 thing we argue about that makes me go :confused: the most.

amen. . . it kills me how people act as though one contract is somehow going to effect our ability to compete-- pure and utter horseshit!

nobody ties up more money in a smaller number of contracts than indy, and they seem to be okay. . .

on the flip side, nobody gives out more terrible contracts than washington and oakland, and yet-- every year they have money to spend. . .

even if the salary cap DOES come back (doesn't look likely), it wouldn't hurt us-- yea, even if we did pay him Dware money. . . who the **** ELSE do we have that makes anything, or is going to ever command much salary?

clady. . .

without taking time to look it up, i know champ is our current top contract, and i'm guessing probably graham after him-- both LONG gone before the real big money years in a new deal for doom would kick in. . . IF the cap ever does come back, we're going to be in great shape. . .

[T.K.O.]

jarvis moss:eek:

[dogfish]

If we are eyeing Iupati, I'd prefer to try and trade back at least a few spots first. I'd rather go RT at #11. Plenty of top notch OTs which would not be considered reaches there. If the Rutgers OT drops to us, he's the one I want. Put him at RT and then trade Harris for a 4th rounder.

really, smiley? you want that lazy turd?

gimme iupati every time, even at right tackle. . . .

[Medford Bronco]

Tebow at all on this team to be a QB.

Maybe as a 7th rounder as a TE or WR would be okay.

[T.K.O.]

i'm just tryin' to figure out how we can get williams and mcclain:confused:

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Have you ever heard of the salary cap? (yeah, I know we don't have one now, but it'll be put in the new CBA). People bitch about Dumvervil possibly getting Demarcus Ware money because giving him that much money could financially restrict us from bringing in other quality players.

And the "Obviously if the owner and coach and player are happy with the contract, why aren't we?" argument is terrible. Using this logic, you are never allowed to complain about a coach making a poor playcall because if he's the coach and if he was happy with the playcall, why not you? Or you can't complain about a ref making a bad call because if he was ok with that call, why not you?

I guess using your logic no one should ever question any decision anyone on the Broncos makes.

You got your wires crossed there, bro. I'm the KING of questioning the FO's decisions. Look, there are a lot of fans that post here and that post elsewhere that are very knowledgeable about the NFL. Teams, postions, players, schemes, etc. One thing I think most of us could probably take a lesson on is contracts and cap management.

Do you really know how much any of thses guys is truly, actually making no matter what the "details" of their contract are? The perfect example is the Marshall contract with Miami. On paper, it looks like they put themselves in hock for him. In real life, his contract really isn't that bad and even if there was a cap, it's "cap friendly". The cap can be beaten easily these days. Every team has preople who's sole job is cap management! They know how to manipulate players' salaries to minimize the impact on the cap while still getting the players what they want. It happens every day.

Funny how we'e always worrying about the cap and yet, year after year, the coaches still sign the FAs they want. McDaniels replaced 50% of the team last year! That's a changeout of half the contracts meaning anyone who was cut or traded that we owed guaranteed money to got it immediately! Then we had to pay all these new guys with all their new contracts. Somehow, we pulled it off and didn't have to file for bankruptcy or get fined by the NFL for being over the cap.

In my case, I want to keep talented players and I hope the FO does too. I guess I'll just have to trust them with the finances just like so many others are happy to trust them and not complain about personnel decisions (like I do). :look:

[spikerman]

Ok but what do we do about the void that we now have at wide receiver?

Draft a receiver in the lower rounds. If not, go with what you have. How dynamic does a player have to be to run 7-10 yard patterns? Look at what Gaffney did in the last game last year. I just think the other needs are much greater. Besides, I don't really trust first round receivers. There have been a few that have worked out, but usually they're a problem.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

amen. . . it kills me how people act as though one contract is somehow going to effect our ability to compete-- pure and utter horseshit!

nobody ties up more money in a smaller number of contracts than indy, and they seem to be okay. . .

on the flip side, nobody gives out more terrible contracts than washington and oakland, and yet-- every year they have money to spend. . .

even if the salary cap DOES come back (doesn't look likely), it wouldn't hurt us-- yea, even if we did pay him Dware money. . . who the **** ELSE do we have that makes anything, or is going to ever command much salary?

clady. . .

without taking time to look it up, i know champ is our current top contract, and i'm guessing probably graham after him-- both LONG gone before the real big money years in a new deal for doom would kick in. . . IF the cap ever does come back, we're going to be in great shape. . .

Damn dog, you made that sound Waaaaaaaayyyyy better than I did. That was my point. Thanks for alley oop! :beer:

[Buff]

amen. . . it kills me how people act as though one contract is somehow going to effect our ability to compete-- pure and utter horseshit!

nobody ties up more money in a smaller number of contracts than indy, and they seem to be okay. . .

on the flip side, nobody gives out more terrible contracts than washington and oakland, and yet-- every year they have money to spend. . .

even if the salary cap DOES come back (doesn't look likely), it wouldn't hurt us-- yea, even if we did pay him Dware money. . . who the **** ELSE do we have that makes anything, or is going to ever command much salary?

clady. . .

without taking time to look it up, i know champ is our current top contract, and i'm guessing probably graham after him-- both LONG gone before the real big money years in a new deal for doom would kick in. . . IF the cap ever does come back, we're going to be in great shape. . .

I understand the overall point you guys are trying to make, which is that sometimes you ought to just bite the bullet and "overpay" a guy if he's still a productive player and the only real implications are for the guy cutting the check. I don't necessarily disagree with that. But I'm saying that's a somewhat short sided view of salary cap reality.

Plus, I think we're splitting hairs here--everyone wants to see Doom resigned, I just don't want his signing to impact our ability to rebuild this team when he's not a complete package at his position.

A.) One contract very well could affect our ability to compete when you're talking about $35-45 million guaranteed and you've still got Shanahan's dead money on the books for another year or two. Who knows what future free agents and draft picks will come our way? Maybe we will have the opportunity to sign a more complete player in next year's draft? With Ware type of money, you have effectively invested your future (at least 3 years, more likely 5-7) in that player at that position. If he gets hurt, or his production drops for any reason you're hurting. Having some flexibility and not over-committing is a common theme among successful franchises in the salary cap era.

B.) Indy is an anomaly because they have Manning.

C.) When was the last time Oakland and Washington were competitive? They spend money like it's going out of style and where has that gotten them? They have money to spend, but whose to say those big contracts up top aren't having unintended consequences on the quality of their average starters and backups?

[Skinny]

Jonathan Dwyer period.

[dogfish]

A.) One contract very well could affect our ability to compete when you're talking about $35-45 million guaranteed and you've still got Shanahan's dead money on the books for another year or two.

so say we give him 30 mil guaranteed over five years instead of 45-- with the salary cap likely to be over a hundred mil per IF it ever does come back-- is that extra couple million per season really going to make the difference between competing and not competing? is one more jarvis green going to put us over the top?

shanahan's money doesn't count against the cap. . . and if bowlen can't afford it, he's always welcome to sell the team to silent stan-- who wouldn't rather have the broncos than the rams??

Who knows what future free agents and draft picks will come our way? Maybe we will have the opportunity to sign a more complete player in next year's draft?

even if we do, it won't cost us big bucks for another 3-4 years, unless you're talking about a top five pick-- and even then that's assuming that there won't be a better rookie wage scale worked into the new CBA, which i'm pretty convinced there will be. . .

also. . . if a guy who rushes the passer as well as doom and plays the run better comes along, he'll be one of the top 3-5 defenders in the league, just like ware. . . those guys don't come along very frequently-- the odds are way too small for me to worry about. . . if it happens, cut somebody else and free up some cash. . .

you can ALWAYS make the argument that somebody better could come along-- lawrence taylor was better than ware, but you don't see the boys holding off on paying ware. . . i'd rather pay the impact defender we do have, than save our money for a guy who will probably never come along. . .

hell, doom's the only good pass rusher we've drafted and developed in the better part of a decade-- i'm not going to hold my breath that we're likely to find a better player. . .

With Ware type of money, you have effectively invested your future (at least 3 years, more likely 5-7) in that player at that position. If he gets hurt, or his production drops for any reason you're hurting. Having some flexibility and not over-committing is a common theme among successful franchises in the salary cap era.

didn't stop pitt from paying rapenstein 100 million, or NYG from paying sheli. . . the steelers just gave harrison a monster extension even though he's getting up there in years. . . the top teams will still pay when it's worth it-- they're just a little more selective. . .

also, they can MUCH more easily afford to let some talent go-- they have a lot more to spare than we do!

B.) Indy is an anomaly because they have Manning.

C.) When was the last time Oakland and Washington were competitive? They spend money like it's going out of style and where has that gotten them? They have money to spend, but whose to say those big contracts up top aren't having unintended consequences on the quality of their average starters and backups?

i would argue that piss-poor talent evaluation, drafting and coaching has had far more serious consequences on those teams. . .



....

[Buff]

Again, I think we're splitting hairs, I like Doom as much as the next guy. But a couple bad deals have bigger implications than people think. This is probably an extreme example, this doesn't happen with one bad contract... But one bad deal begets another, so we need to make sure to get Doom's contract right, that's my point here.



Broncos' ascent even more stunning because of "dead money" burden
By Mike Klis
The Denver Post
Posted: 10/29/2009 01:00:00 AM MDT

Not even federal prison in Yazoo City, Miss., can shackle Travis Henry from becoming part of the NFL's feel-good story that is the 2009 Broncos.

Henry has long been removed from the Broncos' roster, but he still is a strong presence on their books. The former running back and current convicted drug dealer counts $3.6 million against the team's $128 million salary cap budget this year.

"He's on somebody else's roster right now," cornerback Champ Bailey said with a chuckle. "I learn something about the salary cap every year. I can understand it counting maybe for the following year, but this far down the road? The system is crazy."

Imagine, Josh McDaniels' first day on the job as Broncos coach and finding out 3 percent of his salary cap payroll would be allocated to a guy wearing a jumpsuit in Yazoo.

The absurdity doesn't end with Henry, who will celebrate his 31st birthday today as an inmate.

In listing the most stunning aspects about the 6-0 record the Broncos will take into their game Sunday at Baltimore, the efficient play of quarterback Kyle Orton, dramatic defensive transformation and attitude U-turn of receiver Brandon Marshall are often cited.

Nothing may be more amazing than this: The Broncos lead the NFL with $29.6 million in "dead money."

Dead money does not necessarily mean a team continues to pay cold, hard cash to players it no longer employs. The Broncos have long stopped writing enormous checks to Henry.

But oftentimes, prorated bonuses that become part of the NFL's salary cap formula serve as a reminder of costly past mistakes.

Most of the Broncos' dead money is allocated to players who essentially are dead to the NFL — 11 of the 16 most expensive players on their "dead money" payroll are no longer in the league.

And some people claim McDaniels inherited more talent than did the first-year coaches in Kansas City, Detroit, St. Louis, Cleveland and Tampa Bay?

"There's nothing you can do about those situations," McDaniels said. "You understand what you're dealing with, and you move on. We never one time thought of it as a limitation in terms of putting together the most competitive team we could possibly have."

All that dead money conversely means no team has done more with less than the Broncos. Essentially, the Broncos built their undefeated 61-man roster (including the eight-man practice squad) on $92.4 million in salary cap dollars.

Not bad, considering some teams had roughly the full $128 million salary cap at their disposal.

"Put it this way: If they were 1-5 or 0-6 instead of 6-0," said one NFL agent, "they would be using all that dead money as a valid excuse."

Teams with the next four highest amounts of dead money — Oakland, St. Louis, Detroit and Kansas City — are a combined 4-23.

The two teams with the least amount of dead money — Minnesota and Green Bay — are a combined 10-3.

So how did the Broncos become such a stirring exception?

"It tells you they have a lot of quality players on rookie contracts," former NFL general manager Charley Casserly said.

"And they picked up some veterans in the offseason for not high-dollar amounts."

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_13664610

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Again, I think we're splitting hairs, I like Doom as much as the next guy. But a couple bad deals have bigger implications than people think. This is probably an extreme example, this doesn't happen with one bad contract... But one bad deal begets another, so we need to make sure to get Doom's contract right, that's my point here.

Sure, but did you know until that article was written and we were still 6-0 at the time that we had that much dead money on the books? I didn't and I didn't care, either. Once again, figuring out how to get McDaniels the pieces he needs financially is not my job. I'm too busy worrying about whether my QB can complete a 15 yard out or actually connect with a receiver downfield on a pass that isn't terribly underthrown to care how much Ryan Clady or Elvis Dumervil, our only two remaining "studs", are getting paid to produce (because they are the only guys who do week in and week out).

[Buff]

Sure, but did you know until that article was written and we were still 6-0 at the time that we had that much dead money on the books? I didn't and I didn't care, either. Once again, figuring out how to get McDaniels the pieces he needs financially is not my job. I'm too busy worrying about whether my QB can complete a 15 yard out or actually connect with a receiver downfield on a pass that isn't terribly underthrown to care how much Ryan Clady or Elvis Dumervil (our only two remaining "studs" are getting paid to produce (because they are the only guys who do week in and week out).

Well, if you're trying to say that I'm a worthless degenerate who has no life and should go do something constructive instead of arguing about NFL salary cap implications, then I'd have to agree with you... But that's not the point here. :D The point is, we ought to avoid dead money in case Bowlen decides he wants to go on a spending spree in his golden years. /thread

[sneakers]

Any offensive skill player in the first round.....still don't think we should have picked Moreno at 11 last year either.

[OldschoolFreak]

Ok, while we're digging up funny old threads, here's one. My own no less. I don't think I've ever felt such a seesaw of emotions as I ever have for one player. I love the guy now but man was I pissed when shit went down on draft night...

[weazel]

Ok, while we're digging up funny old threads, here's one. My own no less. I don't think I've ever felt such a seesaw of emotions as I ever have for one player. I love the guy now but man was I pissed when shit went down on draft night...

hehe, hindsight...

Pouncey doesn't look half bad either... :D

[SmilinAssasSin27]

So who is it so far for 2011?

At the #2 spot, I could accept any of the legit options here. Bowers, Quinn, Fairley, Peterson or Dareus. Barring a trade back, one of these names will be the #2 pick and go to Denver. I guess the only player left would be AJ Green. I'd love to have his talent in Denver, but ignoring other needs would definitely be a head scratcher.

[atwater27]

none, because mcd is a god and knows best.

lmao!!!

[dogfish]

Well, if you're trying to say that I'm a worthless degenerate who has no life and should go do something constructive instead of arguing about NFL salary cap implications, then I'd have to agree with you... But that's not the point here. :D The point is, we ought to avoid dead money in case Bowlen decides he wants to go on a spending spree in his golden years. /thread

okay, i have no ****ing clue why this musty thread got bumped, but since it did it's worth pointing out that buff is still a worthless degenerate-- even if he does have a rugged jawline. . .

[sneakers]

What is up with all the old bumped threads of late???? not complaining, bumping old threads is awesome because it pisses GEM off.

[Juriga72]

What is up with all the old bumped threads of late???? not complaining, bumping old threads is awesome because it pisses GEM off.

NOt trying to piss off GEM ( tho it seems like I doit on purpose)...

I just like to see how bad we are at really judging talent. LAST years draft and cases like "GOD NO!!!!!!! Tebow will suck" or "GOD no!!!!! Bradford? NO OU qb will ever be good" shows how little we fans really understand judging talent...

Tho we still are better than McDummy will ever be......

[Foochacho]

NOt trying to piss off GEM ( tho it seems like I doit on purpose)...

I just like to see how bad we are at really judging talent. LAST years draft and cases like "GOD NO!!!!!!! Tebow will suck" or "GOD no!!!!! Bradford? NO OU qb will ever be good" shows how little we fans really understand judging talent...

Tho we still are better than McDummy will ever be......

Your mom sucks at judging talent.

[Foochacho]

^^^^^ OHHHH Burn :tsk::tsk::tsk:

[underrated29]

pierre paul anywhere before 20....no no....29.

Clausen.

pounc/iupat/tebow at 11.




I stand by my rankings.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Tho we still are better than McDummy will ever be......

I wonder if you'll still have this opinion in 5 years. I'm not so sure you will. For all of his "issues" his talent evaluation may be a strength...at least as far as the draft is concerned. Time will tell, but McD got bashed for drafting Tebow, but then also bashed for not playing Tebow earlier? DT looks very nice, although needs to get healthy. Decker as well. Knowshon was his draftee. Ayers was still learning a position and his story may take longer to play out. And then there are the OLinemen and the Safeties. McD admittedly had a very short draft list in 2009 and he still grabbed some solid looking prospects. Just sayin...

[silkamilkamonico]

I wonder if you'll still have this opinion in 5 years. I'm not so sure you will. For all of his "issues" his talent evaluation may be a strength...at least as far as the draft is concerned. Time will tell, but McD got bashed for drafting Tebow, but then also bashed for not playing Tebow earlier? DT looks very nice, although needs to get healthy. Decker as well. Knowshon was his draftee. Ayers was still learning a position and his story may take longer to play out. And then there are the OLinemen and the Safeties. McD admittedly had a very short draft list in 2009 and he still grabbed some solid looking prospects. Just sayin...

I was wondering if somebody would catch that. People hate McDaniels so much around here that rational thinking goes right out the door. The latest is, "he's only going to make Bradford and that offense worse..."

I hated McDaniels as much as the next guy for how terrible he was as a HC, but you're pretty stupid if you're discrediting his strengths, which is knowing how to work wonders with QB's and developing a great passing scheme.

[claymore]

I was wondering if somebody would catch that. People hate McDaniels so much around here that rational thinking goes right out the door. The latest is, "he's only going to make Bradford and that offense worse..."

I hated McDaniels as much as the next guy for how terrible he was as a HC, but you're pretty stupid if you're discrediting his strengths, which is knowing how to work wonders with QB's and developing a great passing scheme.

At the complete sacrifice to the running game. I think McD is highly overated as an OC. Im excited to see if I was right or wrong on that. He is in the weakest division in football, that should help him.

[jhildebrand]

Which picks make me puke a little in my mouth each time I hear their name called?

Here they are in order:

Ted Gregory
Mike Croel
Paul Toviessi
George Foster-this one still incites rage in me sometimes :mad:

[I Eat Staples]

NOt trying to piss off GEM ( tho it seems like I doit on purpose)...

I just like to see how bad we are at really judging talent. LAST years draft and cases like "GOD NO!!!!!!! Tebow will suck" or "GOD no!!!!! Bradford? NO OU qb will ever be good" shows how little we fans really understand judging talent...

Tho we still are better than McDummy will ever be......

People are only happy about the Tebow pick now because most fans have a hard-on for him for some strange reason. Must be that "IT" factor.

Tebow was a horrible pick in terms of value, and I still think there's very little chance he'll become our franchise QB.

[Lonestar]

JUST about every day one pick mikey made.. they were all a mistake in some type or the other. except perhaps Al Wilson..

[Ravage!!!]

Trevor Price.. John Mobley, Clinton Portis, Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Jay Cutler, Tony Sheffler, Darrent Williams, Reggie Hayward,Ian Gold, Eddie Royal, Tory James, ...Deltha O'neal (wasn't a mistake, right pick), DJ has been a starter for 6 years

[topscribe]

McClain at 11. I just don't see whatever everyone else sees in him. He looks extraordinarily "average" to me.

Anybody else or trading down is fine with me.

I don't know . . . I can't help but to dream of McClain and Mathews in the same lineup with Doom coming off the edge . . .

-----

[horsepig]

Trevor Price.. John Mobley, Clinton Portis, Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Jay Cutler, Tony Sheffler, Darrent Williams, Reggie Hayward,Ian Gold, Eddie Royal, Tory James, ...Deltha O'neal (wasn't a mistake, right pick), DJ has been a starter for 6 years

You're gonna build a team out of those picks?

[horsepig]

Cripes, from Pryce to Cutler is a lot of draft picks. Deltha O'Neal, really? What the **** did Scheffler ever do? BTW, I always thought thought Tory James should have been on the field, justy another Shanny ****up.

[Lonestar]

You're gonna build a team out of those picks?

I suspect he was taking a shot at me, I forgot about Mobley and Clady well time will tell if he is anything but a ZBS OT.

But many of those guys were losers and IF they do not stick around past there rookie contracts that means a LOSS of a draft pick, the valuable ones that you build your franchise on.

in the list rav made not all of those are day one picks and that was what I getting at the solid foundation of the team.

most of them boogied out of town because of a screw up in mikeys FO. Heyward could have been signed for half of what he got if that had they seen what talent he had and done so before his contract season.

Price was a lazy man that had to be prodded by someone before he would play to his potential. one fat contract after another to bail mikey out of cap hell, till even that it was not enough.

Some folks thought mikey could do no wrong, then most really saw what was going on, but there are some hard core that will defend his every move because "he brought us a couple of trophy's "12 years ago.

what they fail to see is he had magic once, but blew it all when his super stars retired.

[TXBRONC]

You're gonna build a team out of those picks?

Honestly horepig I think most of those guys would help to form a solid nucleus.

[atwater27]

I suspect he was taking a shot at me, I forgot about Mobley and Clady well time will tell if he is anything but a ZBS OT.
But many of those guys were losers and IF they do not stick around past there rookie contracts that means a LOSS of a draft pick, the valuable ones that you build your franchise on.

in the list rav made not all of those are day one picks and that was what I getting at the solid foundation of the team.

most of them boogied out of town because of a screw up in mikeys FO. Heyward could have been signed for half of what he got if that had they seen what talent he had and done so before his contract season.Oh please. Are you for real?

Price was a lazy man that had to be prodded by someone before he would play to his potential. one fat contract after another to bail mikey out of cap hell, till even that it was not enough.Pryce is STILL better in his old age than any of your boy Josh's D-line pick OR free agent pickups.

Some folks thought mikey could do no wrong, then most really saw what was going on, but there are some hard core that will defend his every move because "he brought us a couple of trophy's "12 years ago.

what they fail to see is he had magic once, but blew it all when his super stars retired.

Some folks thought McDaniels could do no wrong, then most really saw what was going on (including Pat), but there are some hard core that will defend his every move because, um... er. Why are you defending Josh again?:laugh::lol:

[Ravage!!!]

You're gonna build a team out of those picks?

Those picks alone?? Hell YES. :lol:

[Ravage!!!]

I suspect he was taking a shot at me, I forgot about Mobley and Clady well time will tell if he is anything but a ZBS OT.

But many of those guys were losers and IF they do not stick around past there rookie contracts that means a LOSS of a draft pick, the valuable ones that you build your franchise on.

in the list rav made not all of those are day one picks and that was what I getting at the solid foundation of the team.

most of them boogied out of town because of a screw up in mikeys FO. Heyward could have been signed for half of what he got if that had they seen what talent he had and done so before his contract season.

Price was a lazy man that had to be prodded by someone before he would play to his potential. one fat contract after another to bail mikey out of cap hell, till even that it was not enough.

Some folks thought mikey could do no wrong, then most really saw what was going on, but there are some hard core that will defend his every move because "he brought us a couple of trophy's "12 years ago.

what they fail to see is he had magic once, but blew it all when his super stars retired.


All of those are day one picks.

But why is it you keep bringing up Shanahan? Is it the "don't look behind the curtain" mentality...tyring to get people tnot to focus on your boi McD? Sure it is.

Here's another hint for you, all those were day 1 picks. They weren't all the day one picks, but all the ones listed sure are.

2. Shanahan won more games in the years AFTER Elway than nearly EVERY OTHER TEAM In the NFL...including those that DID have franchise QBs. He also, won more games than ANY OTHER coach (or franchise) has after the retirement of a franchise (HoF) QB. Now I'm sure you are going to say that was just "magic in a bottle" as well.... or are you just going to close your eyes to the history of the NFL and say its not relevant?

[TXBRONC]

All of those are day one picks.

But why is it you keep bringing up Shanahan? Is it the "don't look behind the curtain" mentality...tyring to get people tnot to focus on your boi McD? Sure it is.

Here's another hint for you, all those were day 1 picks. They weren't all the day one picks, but all the ones listed sure are.

2. Shanahan won more games in the years AFTER Elway than nearly EVERY OTHER TEAM In the NFL...including those that DID have franchise QBs. He also, won more games than ANY OTHER coach (or franchise) has after the retirement of a franchise (HoF) QB. Now I'm sure you are going to say that was just "magic in a bottle" as well.... or are you just going to close your eyes to the history of the NFL and say its not relevant?

Yep. They weren't all taken in the first round but they were ALL taken on the first day.

[Lonestar]

Trevor Price.. John Mobley, Clinton Portis, Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Jay Cutler, Tony Sheffler, Darrent Williams, Reggie Hayward,Ian Gold, Eddie Royal, Tory James, ...Deltha O'neal (wasn't a mistake, right pick), DJ has been a starter for 6 years


I suspect he was taking a shot at me, I forgot about Mobley and Clady well time will tell if he is anything but a ZBS OT.

But many of those guys were losers and IF they do not stick around past there rookie contracts that means a LOSS of a draft pick, the valuable ones that you build your franchise on.

in the list rav made not all of those are day one picks and that was what I getting at the solid foundation of the team.

most of them boogied out of town because of a screw up in mikeys FO. Heyward could have been signed for half of what he got if that had they seen what talent he had and done so before his contract season.

Price was a lazy man that had to be prodded by someone before he would play to his potential. one fat contract after another to bail mikey out of cap hell, till even that it was not enough.

Some folks thought mikey could do no wrong, then most really saw what was going on, but there are some hard core that will defend his every move because "he brought us a couple of trophy's "12 years ago.

what they fail to see is he had magic once, but blew it all when his super stars retired.


All of those are day one picks.

But why is it you keep bringing up Shanahan? Is it the "don't look behind the curtain" mentality...tyring to get people tnot to focus on your boi McD? Sure it is.

Here's another hint for you, all those were day 1 picks. They weren't all the day one picks, but all the ones listed sure are.

2. Shanahan won more games in the years AFTER Elway than nearly EVERY OTHER TEAM In the NFL...including those that DID have franchise QBs. He also, won more games than ANY OTHER coach (or franchise) has after the retirement of a franchise (HoF) QB. Now I'm sure you are going to say that was just "magic in a bottle" as well.... or are you just going to close your eyes to the history of the NFL and say its not relevant?


just to set the records straight here are mikeys for the vast majority wasted day on picks.. Y'all can see it for yourself..



2008 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 12 Ryan Clady T Boise State
2 42 Eddie Royal WR Virginia Tech

2007 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 Jarvis Moss DE Florida
2 56 Tim Crowder DE Texas
3 70 Ryan Harris OT Notre Dame

2006 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 11 Jay Cutler QB Vanderbilt
2 61 Tony Scheffler TE Western Michigan

2005 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
2 56 Darrent Williams CB Oklahoma State
3 76 Karl Paymah DB Washington State
3 97 Domonique Foxworth CB Maryland
3 101 Maurice Clarett -- Ohio State

2004 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 17 D.J. Williams OLB Miami (Fla.)
2 41 Tatum Bell RB Oklahoma State
2 54 Darius Watts WR Marshall
3 85 Jeremy LeSueur CB Michigan

2003 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 20 George Foster T Georgia
2 51 Terry Pierce LB Kansas State

2002 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 19 Ashley Lelie WR Hawaii
2 51 Clinton Portis RB Miami (Fla.)
3 96 Dorsett Davis DT Mississippi State

2001 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Willie Middlebrooks CB Minnesota
2 51 Paul Toviessi DE Marshall
3 87 Reggie Hayward DE Iowa State

2000 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 Deltha O'Neal CB California
2 40 Ian Gold LB Michigan
2 45 Kenoy Kennedy SAF Arkansas
3 70 Chris Cole WR Texas A&M

1999 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 31 Al Wilson MLB Tennessee
2 58 Montae Reagor DE Texas Tech
2 61 Lennie Friedman C Duke
3 67 Chris Watson CB Eastern Illinois
3 93 Travis McGriff WR Florida

1998 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Marcus Nash WR Tennessee
2 61 Eric Brown SS Mississippi State
3 91 Brian Griese QB Michigan

1997 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 28 Trevor Pryce DT Clemson
3 67 Dan Neil G Texas

1996 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 John Mobley OLB Kutztown
2 44 Tory James DB Louisiana State
3 65 Detron Smith RB Texas A&M
3 78 Mark Campbell DT Florida


Sorry I left Royal off that list the first time. Looks like he might be a keeper but that remains to be seen.

I judge players on if they can cut the mustard on OUR team, for the most part day one picks are keepers to build your franchise on are leaders and keepers not just a "filler" that winds up on Special teams because they just can't make it as a starter.

on that list we have:

Mobley great LB career lost by injury.
Dan Neil a keeper.
price whom was great after Rod or mikey kicked his ass publicly and then only for a few games until they did it again.
Al Wilson great MLB injured career at the end and IIRC mikey tried to trade away knowing he was injured. and then fought an injury settlement.. real classy way to treat your team captain.
Heyward great DE that mikey was to stupid to resign.
Poorti$$ the only thing he was worth is Champ.
DJ great WLB but nothing special anywhere else.
Royal might be a keeper if he can find a spot with the new coaching group.
Clady lets see if he gets a new contract from teh new regime.


how many of those other day one picks got a new contract with us after the rookie contact was up.. or was traded for value Like poorti$$ was. can count them on one maybe two hands.

Not much to show for 14 years IMHO.

mikey was a great OC for us I will never debate that ( well maybe not the last couple of years) but beyond being an offensive genius he is a waste.

sure he won a lot of games but only ONE playoff win after the superstars retired.. and he was in charge of everything for the Broncos for those years.

Love him all you want IMO he got lucky those first few years having all of that assembled talent, some of which was here when he got here, some that he brought in early before most clubs figured out free agency. Once they did he had to compete for players he was average and reaching at best for talent overpaying lots of losers.

Some say his free spending broke Pats bank, not sure but sure looks that way.

As I said love him all you want.

and it is not because I'm afraid of Josh being exposed.

[horsepig]

I was all for McD after he was hired, how could you not be? I felt like Cutler was not "a Bronco type of player", and was not too sorry to see him go. The problems with Marshall, Scheffler, etc... did begin to wear on me, as did our damn poor offense.

Then there was the defense, my big problem with Shannahan, and McD flunked out on that one, but the killer for me was the Hillis debacle. No explanation, no clues, no nothing on that deal. What are fans supposed to do? Blindly follow the HC with absolutely no idea what is going on? There was never even any hint at a team identity, there seemed to be no direction at all. That's when I bailed on McD.

I could go on, but why?

[TXBRONC]

I was all for McD after he was hired, how could you not be? I felt like Cutler was not "a Bronco type of player", and was not too sorry to see him go. The problems with Marshall, Scheffler, etc... did begin to wear on me, as did our damn poor offense.

Then there was the defense, my big problem with Shannahan, and McD flunked out on that one, but the killer for me was the Hillis debacle. No explanation, no clues, no nothing on that deal. What are fans supposed to do? Blindly follow the HC with absolutely no idea what is going on? There was never even any hint at a team identity, there seemed to be no direction at all. That's when I bailed on McD.

I could go on, but why?

Horse I don't think the problems with players solely lies with them. McDaniels is as much for that fiasco as they are. You're not alone in not being sorry that Cutler is gone I am. I believe we would be better off had Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, and Hillis not been sent packing.

McDaniels did give an explanation as to why Hillis was traded. He said he traded Hillis because he didn't fit his kind scheme. He had power running scheme and a 250 lbs power back didn't fit that kind of scheme because he would about 20 or carries a game. It's not the same as trying to give a 215 lbs running back about 20 carries a game.

[rationalfan]

jarvis moss. tim crowder. marcus nash. willie middlebrooks.

richard quinn. phonso smith.

when you look at the draft as a broncos problem, rather than a mcd problem, it's pretty apparent why the team is so bad right now. the broncos haven't drafted well in a long, long time. and don't celebrate those two good years that netted cutler, doom, clady, etc. those were aberrations in a decade of draft day incompetence.

let's hope the elways/xanders/fox combination realizes the importance of the draft, rather than view it as a crapshoot for gambling.

[Lonestar]

jarvis moss. tim crowder. marcus nash. willie middlebrooks.

richard quinn. phonso smith.

when you look at the draft as a broncos problem, rather than a mcd problem, it's pretty apparent why the team is so bad right now. the broncos haven't drafted well in a long, long time. and don't celebrate those two good years that netted cutler, doom, clady, etc. those were aberrations in a decade of draft day incompetence.

let's hope the elways/xanders/fox combination realizes the importance of the draft, rather than view it as a crapshoot for gambling.

Just food for thought. Those folks listed for mikeys drafts were iirc all top 15 or so picks with all year to evaluate them.

Joshes had a couPle of weeks after being hired. Neigther First rounders.


Good logical post, fans have a short memory about a decade of lousy day one picks.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Ravage!!!]

Was longer than a couple weeks, and.. that doesn't excuse you for giving away first round picks for players if you didn't have time to evaluate them. Make up your mind. Not only was the Phonso pick stupid (as nearly every fan on this message board knew, other than those doing their best to defend McD at ever turn), but it was short sighted. Moving up for Quinn, another retarded move. Where was the Ayers pick? Alphono's pick turned out to be worth a ...what... again? The excuses just keep coming in with no back-bone to them.

[Agent of Orange]

jarvis moss. tim crowder. marcus nash. willie middlebrooks.

richard quinn. phonso smith.

when you look at the draft as a broncos problem, rather than a mcd problem, it's pretty apparent why the team is so bad right now. the broncos haven't drafted well in a long, long time. and don't celebrate those two good years that netted cutler, doom, clady, etc. those were aberrations in a decade of draft day incompetence.

let's hope the elways/xanders/fox combination realizes the importance of the draft, rather than view it as a crapshoot for gambling.

Elvis Dumervil - 4th round
Brandon Marshall - 4th round
Peyton Hillis - 7th round

I think it's safe to say the 3 years prior to McDaniels' arrival easily trumps his two years of drafts. At this point, the only draft pick of his that people feel good about is Tebow, whom McDaniels refused to play...calling it "ridiculous".

[Agent of Orange]

Just food for thought. Those folks listed for mikeys drafts were iirc all top 15 or so picks with all year to evaluate them.

Joshes had a couPle of weeks after being hired. Neigther First rounders.


Good logical post, fans have a short memory about a decade of lousy day one picks.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Its not so much food as it is rat poison. This isn't even a point. Josh was hired early in January, about a week after the season ended. It's not like Shanahan was knee deep in looking at draft picks during the season. He more or less had the same starting point as McDaniels' did. And if Josh wasn't qualified to make the picks, as you say, he should have deferred to someone else.

[turftoad]

Was longer than a couple weeks, and.. that doesn't excuse you for giving away first round picks for players if you didn't have time to evaluate them. Make up your mind. Not only was the Phonso pick stupid (as nearly every fan on this message board knew, other than those doing their best to defend McD at ever turn), but it was short sighted. Moving up for Quinn, another retarded move. Where was the Ayers pick? Alphono's pick turned out to be worth a ...what... again? The excuses just keep coming in with no back-bone to them.

Would have been the 14th overall. What did we get for him again? Oh yeah, a third string blocking TE, thats right. :confused:

All teams, every one of them, has made draft mistakes. It's a crap shoot. However, moving all over the board, giving up first rounders for second rounders etc... isn't a mistake. It's a blunder.

[jhildebrand]

Was longer than a couple weeks, and.. that doesn't excuse you for giving away first round picks for players if you didn't have time to evaluate them. Make up your mind. Not only was the Phonso pick stupid (as nearly every fan on this message board knew, other than those doing their best to defend McD at ever turn), but it was short sighted. Moving up for Quinn, another retarded move. Where was the Ayers pick? Alphono's pick turned out to be worth a ...what... again? The excuses just keep coming in with no back-bone to them.


Would have been the 14th overall. What did we get for him again? Oh yeah, a third string blocking TE, thats right. :confused:

All teams, every one of them, has made draft mistakes. It's a crap shoot. However, moving all over the board, giving up first rounders for second rounders etc... isn't a mistake. It's a blunder.

It is all the worse when you consider they traded up to acquire Brandstater just to simply release him a year later.

It is unforgiveable when it is self disclosed that the team was very short handed going into that draft. Being a first year coach and gm tandem, I think any fan would have been forgiving had they erred on the side of conservative.

When they disclose that their draft board consisted of 100 total players that just becomes pure incompetence that should have resulted in drastic changes immediately to the FO.

Water under the bridge I guess :noidea:

[Lonestar]

Its not so much food as it is rat poison. This isn't even a point. Josh was hired early in January, about a week after the season ended. It's not like Shanahan was knee deep in looking at draft picks during the season. He more or less had the same starting point as McDaniels' did. And if Josh wasn't qualified to make the picks, as you say, he should have deferred to someone else.

actually NO they were not.

Mikey knew what his players were coming off any given season.

Josh had very little Idea what was here other than the game tape they studied when getting ready to play DEN.


Josh had to hire a coaching staff, mikes other than the revolving door at DC was pretty set there.

Josh needed to get to know his GM and scouting department. Mike knew them.

Josh inherited mikes scouts and staff. They had NO idea what Josh was looking for in players other than the announcement Josh made when he had his intro presser, that we would get "bigger, faster, smarter."

Prior to that I suspect all they had scouted all year were mikes type of players finesse types lower round running backs, and oline guys and from whatever we had drafted the past ten years did not look at DLine guys at all.

SO they had to go back and reevaluate who they did look at all year and grade them on Joshes standards not mikes.

Probably the main reason they all got released a couple weeks before the draft and why we did not have every college player ranked on our war board.

Perhaps one of the reasons we drafted A Smith or R Quinn so high.

Not to mention Josh having to move to DEN and all the minutia that entails , redoing his office etc etc etc..

So let not pretend that Josh was on the same time scale as mike would have been.

[horsepig]

Just food for thought. Those folks listed for mikeys drafts were iirc all top 15 or so picks with all year to evaluate them.

Joshes had a couPle of weeks after being hired. Neigther First rounders.


Good logical post, fans have a short memory about a decade of lousy day one picks.
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

Cripes, Lonestar (lol),

Here';s the deal, Everybody wants the the BIG FATTY in the middle. Great big fat **** right in the middle, does it matter if he's a one gap/two gap player? **** no. turn the frat ass ****ewr loose.

[Lonestar]

Cripes, Lonestar (lol),

Here';s the deal, Everybody wants the the BIG FATTY in the middle. Great big fat **** right in the middle, does it matter if he's a one gap/two gap player? **** no. turn the frat ass ****ewr loose.

Yes that is really true, big beefy guy in the middle that NO ONE can move.

But one scouts evaluation, may not be another scouts.
look at how many flops there are in the draft concerning the DL.

Great can't miss players that are never heard from after a couple of times being cut.

[spikerman]

actually NO they were not.

Mikey knew what his players were coming off any given season.

Josh had very little Idea what was here other than the game tape they studied when getting ready to play DEN.


Josh had to hire a coaching staff, mikes other than the revolving door at DC was pretty set there.

Josh needed to get to know his GM and scouting department. Mike knew them.

Josh inherited mikes scouts and staff. They had NO idea what Josh was looking for in players other than the announcement Josh made when he had his intro presser, that we would get "bigger, faster, smarter."

Prior to that I suspect all they had scouted all year were mikes type of players finesse types lower round running backs, and oline guys and from whatever we had drafted the past ten years did not look at DLine guys at all.

SO they had to go back and reevaluate who they did look at all year and grade them on Joshes standards not mikes.

Probably the main reason they all got released a couple weeks before the draft and why we did not have every college player ranked on our war board.

Perhaps one of the reasons we drafted A Smith or R Quinn so high.

Not to mention Josh having to move to DEN and all the minutia that entails , redoing his office etc etc etc..

So let not pretend that Josh was on the same time scale as mike would have been.

Maybe I'm not following the conversation closely enough, but if you're talking about when Shanahan first got to Denver (and that's really the only way to compare apples to apples) then he absolutely had the same amount of time McDaniels did for his first draft. Shanahan was coming off a Super Bowl win so he would have had the same amount of time to prepare, give or take a couple of days. That was a long time ago, but I suspect that Shanahan didn't come in and get involved in a power struggle with his personnel department just before the draft. Even so, he drafted two players that had an immediate impact on the team (Terrell Davis and Byron Chamberlain) and this is despite not having a pick in the first 3 rounds (if I recall correctly).

The next year he had a fairly productive draft as well. Players that made an impact within their first two years include: John Mobley, Tory James, Detron Smith, and Tony Veland.

This is not to say that all of Shanahan's drafts were great. Obviously they were not, but somehow you give Shanahan very little, if any, credit for his hits and yet you absolve McDaniels of any blame for his mistakes.

This is disingenuous at best.

[atwater27]

This is disingenuous at best.

Get used to it. Everyone else is.

[Lonestar]

Maybe I'm not following the conversation closely enough, but if you're talking about when Shanahan first got to Denver (and that's really the only way to compare apples to apples) then he absolutely had the same amount of time McDaniels did for his first draft. Shanahan was coming off a Super Bowl win so he would have had the same amount of time to prepare, give or take a couple of days. That was a long time ago, but I suspect that Shanahan didn't come in and get involved in a power struggle with his personnel department just before the draft. Even so, he drafted two players that had an immediate impact on the team (Terrell Davis and Byron Chamberlain) and this is despite not having a pick in the first 3 rounds (if I recall correctly).

The next year he had a fairly productive draft as well. Players that made an impact within their first two years include: John Mobley, Tory James, Detron Smith, and Tony Veland.

This is not to say that all of Shanahan's drafts were great. Obviously they were not, but somehow you give Shanahan very little, if any, credit for his hits and yet you absolve McDaniels of any blame for his mistakes.

This is disingenuous at best.

Actually I have given mikey lots of credit up to and including the super bowl wins. Beyond that not much other than being one hell of a OC.

I have not absolved Josh of anything period .. just do not get the absolute hate for the guy.

He was hired to do a job and included changing the atmosphere of mediocrity in Dove Valley, convert the team to a spread NE style offense and defense. He was doing that when he was fired.

As to what he did or did not do with his FO staff I do not recall. I suspect he had access to there reports and as you said drafted TD and BC. Yet many gave BT lots of credit for the TD pick. Whom BTW was one play away from being cut. Or so TD seemed to think..

I know that many hate the very thought of anything NE and anything not mikey is abhorrent to Y'all. I find that very sad and one of the reasons I spend about 90% less time on here than I used to.

BTW after the super bowl years IMHO mikey relied on expensive FA's to fill holes after a few years of really lousy drafting. Please note from this list jsut how many starters or Quality backups came from this group.

finding one, maybe two replacements a year will not sustain a football team.



2003 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 20 George Foster T Georgia
2 51 Terry Pierce LB Kansas State
4 108 Quentin Griffin RB Oklahoma
4 114 Nick Eason DT Clemson
4 128 Bryant McNeal DE Clemson
5 157 Ben Claxton C Mississippi
5 158 Adrian Madise WR Texas Christian
6 194 Aaron Hunt -- Texas Tech
7 227 Clint Mitchell DE Florida
7 235 Ahmaad Galloway RB Alabama
2002 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 19 Ashley Lelie WR Hawaii
2 51 Clinton Portis RB Miami (Fla.)
3 96 Dorsett Davis DT Mississippi State
4 131 Sam Brandon DB Nevada-Las Vegas
5 144 Herb Haygood WR Michigan State
6 191 Jeb Putzier TE Boise State
7 228 Chris Young DB Georgia Tech
7 231 Monsanto Pope DT Virginia
2001 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 24 Willie Middlebrooks CB Minnesota
2 51 Paul Toviessi DE Marshall
3 87 Reggie Hayward DE Iowa State
4 113 Ben Hamilton C Minnesota
4 120 Nick Harris P California
6 190 Kevin Kasper WR Iowa
2000 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 Deltha O'Neal CB California
2 40 Ian Gold LB Michigan
2 45 Kenoy Kennedy SAF Arkansas
3 70 Chris Cole WR Texas A&M
4 101 Jerry Johnson DT Florida State
4 112 Cooper Carlisle G Florida
5 154 Muneer Moore WR Richmond
6 189 Mike Anderson RB Utah
7 214 Jarious Jackson QB Notre Dame
7 246 Leroy Fields -- Jackson State
1999 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 31 Al Wilson MLB Tennessee
2 58 Montae Reagor DE Texas Tech
2 61 Lennie Friedman C Duke
3 67 Chris Watson CB Eastern Illinois
3 93 Travis McGriff WR Florida
4 127 Olandis Gary RB Georgia
5 158 David Bowens LB Western Illinois
5 167 Darwin Brown DB Texas Tech
6 179 Desmond Clark TE Wake Forest
6 204 Chad Plummer WR Cincinnati
7 218 Billy Miller WR USC
7 238 Justin Swift TE Kansas State
1998 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 30 Marcus Nash WR Tennessee
2 61 Eric Brown SS Mississippi State
3 91 Brian Griese QB Michigan
4 122 Curtis Alexander -- Alabama
5 153 Chris Howard RB Michigan
7 200 Trey Teague T Tennessee
7 219 Nate Wayne LB Mississippi
1997 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 28 Trevor Pryce DT Clemson
3 67 Dan Neil G Texas
4 124 Cory Gilliard DB Ball State
1996 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 15 John Mobley OLB Kutztown
2 44 Tory James DB Louisiana State
3 65 Detron Smith RB Texas A&M
3 78 Mark Campbell DT Florida
4 100 Jeff Lewis QB Northern Arizona
4 122 Darrius Johnson DB Oklahoma
5 159 Patrick Jeffers WR Virginia
6 181 Tony Veland DB Nebraska
7 213 Leslie Ratliffe -- Tennessee
7 226 Chris Banks G Kansas
7 235 L.T. Levine -- Kansas
7 236 Brian Gragert -- Wyoming
1995 - Denver Broncos
Rd Sel # Player Position School
4 121 Jamie Brown T Florida A&M
4 124 Ken Brown LB Virginia Tech
5 146 Phil Yeboah-Kodie LB Penn State
6 182 Fritz Fequiere -- Iowa
6 196 Terrell Davis RB Georgia
7 218 Steve Russ LB Air Force
7 222 Byron Chamberlain WR Wayne State (Neb.)


I marked the ones in red as bonafide starters, not very many were there. and how many FA busts did we have during that time frame.

Was Joshes Drafts great year one I think we got at least a couple of long term starters depending of course on the new coaching staff.



Rd Sel # Player Position School
1 12 Knowshon Moreno RB Georgia
1 18 Robert Ayers LB Tennessee
2 37 Alphonso Smith DB Wake Forest
2 48 Darcel McBath DB Texas Tech
2 64 Richard Quinn TE North Carolina
4 114 David Bruton DB Notre Dame
4 132 Seth Olsen G Iowa
5 141 Kenny McKinley WR South Carolina


Sad to hear about Kenny could have been a good one..

as for that draft it was probably just as successful as any one of mikes drafts through 04 if not better..

But then I'm a tougher grader, than those that fawn all over mike and his rings.

[BroncoAV06]

How many times can you post drafts? I think we understand who was drafted in your 80 other post about Mikes drafts. What is even going on in this thread any more?
Mobile Post via Mobile.BroncosForums.com/forums

[Agent of Orange]

actually NO they were not.

Mikey knew what his players were coming off any given season.

Josh had very little Idea what was here other than the game tape they studied when getting ready to play DEN.


Josh had to hire a coaching staff, mikes other than the revolving door at DC was pretty set there.

Josh needed to get to know his GM and scouting department. Mike knew them.

Josh inherited mikes scouts and staff. They had NO idea what Josh was looking for in players other than the announcement Josh made when he had his intro presser, that we would get "bigger, faster, smarter."

Prior to that I suspect all they had scouted all year were mikes type of players finesse types lower round running backs, and oline guys and from whatever we had drafted the past ten years did not look at DLine guys at all.

SO they had to go back and reevaluate who they did look at all year and grade them on Joshes standards not mikes.

Probably the main reason they all got released a couple weeks before the draft and why we did not have every college player ranked on our war board.

Perhaps one of the reasons we drafted A Smith or R Quinn so high.

Not to mention Josh having to move to DEN and all the minutia that entails , redoing his office etc etc etc..

So let not pretend that Josh was on the same time scale as mike would have been.



Like I said, if he didn't know what he was doing, it was his job to defer to someone who did. No excuses.

[slim]

Pouncey at 11.

:welcome:

[atwater27]

He was hired to do a job and included changing the atmosphere of mediocrity in Dove Valley, convert the team to a spread NE style offense and defense. He was doing that when he was fired.The spread offense isn't shit. Why don't you ask the Pats how it has served them this year.


But then I'm a tougher grader, than those that fawn all over mike and his rings.

I'll take Mike and his rings over your opinion ANY day.