Broncos Looking to move Down

[Traveler]

Draft picks 10-12 could see trades
By Adam Schefter
ESPN Archive

An offseason filled with trades could continue straight into Thursday night's NFL draft, and picks 10 through 12 might be where the action will happen.

A cluster of teams -- No. 10 Jacksonville, No. 11 Denver and No. 12 Miami -- is interested in moving back in the draft, according to multiple league sources.

Meanwhile, another cluster of teams -- No. 18 Pittsburgh, No. 23 Green Bay and No. 24 Philadelphia -- is interested in moving up in the draft.

Teams will be cautious about trading into Jacksonville's spot at No. 10 because the team that picks might have to negotiate off the complex deal that San Francisco and Michael Crabtree struck last season.

Crabtree, who fell to No. 10 in the 2009 draft and held out through training camp and the opening weeks of the season, signed a contract paying him more than the picks taken ahead of him, setting a tricky precedent for teams at that slot this year.

Denver's spot at No. 11, one spot ahead of Miami, could have more appeal because the Crabtree contract would not be looming over it.

Adam Schefter is an ESPN NFL Insider.
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Move up, move down. Hell, why not move laterally? This is why I'll be glad when the draft is over!

[SOCALORADO.]

DEN looking to move left.....no! Right! No! Left again, no wait, thats a red light, stop, no, move back!
Wait,.............................where in the hell are we!?!?!

[Traveler]

DEN looking to move left.....no! Right! No! Left again, no wait, thats a red light, stop, no, move back!
Wait,.............................where in the hell are we!?!?!

My point exactly!:salute:

[dogfish]

truth is we're looking to move up AND down. . . down from #11 to take pouncey, and up from 43/45 to take someone like tebow or maybe odrick. . .

[jlarsiii]

truth is we're looking to move up AND down. . . down from #11 to take pouncey, and up from 43/45 to take someone like tebow or maybe odrick. . .

Agreed. There is the potential for us to make a lot of moves early in the draft. Should make it interesting to watch and see if we stay put and take player X, or if we move around to acquire more picks or trade away picks and take player Y.

BTW, right now I prefer player X. I like his style. . .

[SOCALORADO.]

truth is we're looking to move up AND down. . . down from #11 to take pouncey, and up from 43/45 to take someone like tebow or maybe odrick. . .

I honestly dont see the whole Pouncey thing happening. Good O-linemen can be had in the later rounds. Its been that way for a long time, even when theres a glaring hole on a team at O-line. (excluding LT of course)
Theres plenty of centers that can get drafted in the 3rd, 4th round and come into DEN as rookies and have just as big an impact as Poncey can.
Who knows, maybe he is a coveted player!
I think the trade down is to get Tebow, and get another pick in the 2nd or
3rd to add another quality player.

[SOCALORADO.]

Agreed. There is the potential for us to make a lot of moves early in the draft. Should make it interesting to watch and see if we stay put and take player X, or if we move around to acquire more picks or trade away picks and take player Y.

BTW, right now I prefer player X. I like his style. . .

X IS kinda a diva though.....just sayin. And that whole gun charge issue in Knoxville might have soured some folks.

[Lonestar]

Some of this is just fodder to boost the ratings of the writers.

Afterall what do they hav to lose.

If it happens they are all knowning wizards and be thumping their chests about how many contacts they have.

If it does not they can easily deflect it as those teams could not work out a deal in time or the player they wanted was not there.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

[Traveler]

I honestly dont see the whole Pouncey thing happening. Good O-linemen can be had in the later rounds. Its been that way for a long time, even when theres a glaring hole on a team at O-line. (excluding LT of course)
Theres plenty of centers that can get drafted in the 3rd, 4th round and come into DEN as rookies and have just as big an impact as Poncey can.
Who knows, maybe he is a coveted player!
I think the trade down is to get Tebow, and get another pick in the 2nd or
3rd to add another quality player.

Are you saying they want Tebow in the 1st round?

[SOCALORADO.]

Are you saying they want Tebow in the 1st round?

I am. And if MCD can get an extra pick as well in the move down, its gravy, cause he needs depth all over. I dont think Tebow makes it outta the 1st, and i think MCD wants him, and knows it.
Right or Wrong, thats what i think MCDs plan is.

[MileHighCrew]

I am. And if MCD can get an extra pick as well in the move down, its gravy, cause he needs depth all over. I dont think Tebow makes it outta the 1st, and i think MCD wants him, and knows it.
Right or Wrong, thats what i think MCDs plan is.

:laugh: You are assuming there is a plan in place. Which would be in contrast to last years lets just wing it concept for the draft.

[SOCALORADO.]

:laugh: You are assuming there is a plan in place. Which would be in contrast to last years lets just wing it concept for the draft.

Didnt MCD and his "crew" make a big board this year?
I was at the mall and saw him buying a bunch of Sharpies and a white board, talking about how great its gonna be, a week before the draft.
Something about making a fort, and getting a pizza.........

[MileHighCrew]

Didnt MCD and his "crew" make a big board this year?
I was at the mall and saw him buying a bunch of Sharpies and a white board, talking about how great its gonna be, a week before the draft.
Something about making a fort, and getting a pizza.........

Funny I thought they were sitting around trying to figure out how to use Microsoft Excel :confused:

[Buff]

Based on some inside information I've received, I'm predicting that Denver will draft a player in the 1st round.

[jlarsiii]

X IS kinda a diva though.....just sayin. And that whole gun charge issue in Knoxville might have soured some folks.

Damn, forgot about the gun charge. I must say I don't trust any potential NFL player who doesn't have some sort of rap sheet by the time they are done with college ball. Know what I mean?

[TXBRONC]

Based on some inside information I've received, I'm predicting that Denver will draft a player in the 1st round.

Brilliant. :D

[Lonestar]

His "big" board this year has a few more names on it than last year.

BUT I would guess it is more quality players and better honed into those areas that we need more so than last year.

Last year we had overall needs, this year we have defined needs after finding for sure who/where our weakest players/areas are.

So excepting Tebow this draft will be very focused in filling the potholes first.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

[SOCALORADO.]

His "big" board this year has a few more names on it than last year.

BUT I would guess it is more quality players and better honed into those areas that we need more so than last year.

Last year we had overall needs, this year we have defined needs after finding for sure who/where our weakest players/areas are.

So excepting Tebow this draft will be very focused in filling the potholes first.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

I agree, but i also would add that i think MCD also has a bit of pressure on him now with the trades of the QB,WR,TE.
So although i think he wants to do as you said and fill the potholes, i think he also wants to make a bit of a splash, and have the 1st 3 players he takes, be impact players, who will be plug and play types. excluding possibly Tebow of course if he was to take him 1st. The more picks, the better for MCD.

[jlarsiii]

His "big" board this year has a few more names on it than last year.

BUT I would guess it is more quality players and better honed into those areas that we need more so than last year.

Last year we had overall needs, this year we have defined needs after finding for sure who/where our weakest players/areas are.

So excepting Tebow this draft will be very focused in filling the potholes first.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

If that is the case then why take Tebow at all? If we have defined needs and can fill them with quality players through the draft, then why would we waste a pick for a position where we already have 3 players on the roster at that particular position.

To me, if we draft Tebow or any other QB in the early rounds of the draft it will mean that for the last 15 months McD has had no concrete plan for the QB position. Trade with Chicago because he liked Orton, sign Simms, draft Brandstater, release Simms, trade for Quinn, and now draft a QB early in 2010??? All that says is "I can't evaluate QB talent because all these guys have not met my expectations." Now I am supposed to believe that a coach who may not be able to evaluate QB talent that well is set on taking a run-first QB with throwing mechanics issues, and that he will be the answer?

If we waste an early pick on Tebow and fail to fill other areas of need in one of deepest drafts in recent history then it will leave me :confused: about McD's plan for this team. I guess it could be a shrewd move if Tebow turns into the next NFL wunderkid, but personally I don't see it at all. . .

[MileHighCrew]

I agree, but i also would add that i think MCD also has a bit of pressure on him now with the trades of the QB,WR,TE.
So although i think he wants to do as you said and fill the potholes, i think he also wants to make a bit of a splash, and have the 1st 3 players he takes, be impact players, who will be plug and play types. excluding possibly Tebow of course if he was to take him 1st. The more picks, the better for MCD.

He is only going to take Tebow for the splash, he needs the good pub from drafting the all american boy. He might not be a first round talent, but he would get McD on the cover of SI. :tsk:

[Northman]

I am. And if MCD can get an extra pick as well in the move down, its gravy, cause he needs depth all over. I dont think Tebow makes it outta the 1st, and i think MCD wants him, and knows it.
Right or Wrong, thats what i think MCDs plan is.

I seriously hope not.

[SOCALORADO.]

If that is the case then why take Tebow at all? If we have defined needs and can fill them with quality players through the draft, then why would we waste a pick for a position where we already have 3 players on the roster at that particular position.

To me, if we draft Tebow or any other QB in the early rounds of the draft it will mean that for the last 15 months McD has had no concrete plan for the QB position. Trade with Chicago because he liked Orton, sign Simms, draft Brandstater, release Simms, trade for Quinn, and now draft a QB early in 2010??? All that says is "I can't evaluate QB talent because all these guys have not met my expectations." Now I am supposed to believe that a coach who may not be able to evaluate QB talent that well is set on taking a run-first QB with throwing mechanics issues, and that he will be the answer?

If we waste an early pick on Tebow and fail to fill other areas of need in one of deepest drafts in recent history then it will leave me :confused: about McD's plan for this team. I guess it could be a shrewd move if Tebow turns into the next NFL wunderkid, but personally I don't see it at all. . .

Just got off the celly with Mickey D and he says were taking Tebow, just to specifically piss you, and only you off!

[jlarsiii]

Just got off the celly with Mickey D and he says were taking Tebow, just to specifically piss you, and only you off!

Okay, glad you could give me the insight. Just trying to say that picking Tebow scares the crap out of me. If he is selected by McD it would not piss me off, it would disappoint me. I just think we could do better. . .

[Northman]

If that is the case then why take Tebow at all? If we have defined needs and can fill them with quality players through the draft, then why would we waste a pick for a position where we already have 3 players on the roster at that particular position.

To me, if we draft Tebow or any other QB in the early rounds of the draft it will mean that for the last 15 months McD has had no concrete plan for the QB position. Trade with Chicago because he liked Orton, sign Simms, draft Brandstater, release Simms, trade for Quinn, and now draft a QB early in 2010??? All that says is "I can't evaluate QB talent because all these guys have not met my expectations." Now I am supposed to believe that a coach who may not be able to evaluate QB talent that well is set on taking a run-first QB with throwing mechanics issues, and that he will be the answer?

If we waste an early pick on Tebow and fail to fill other areas of need in one of deepest drafts in recent history then it will leave me :confused: about McD's plan for this team. I guess it could be a shrewd move if Tebow turns into the next NFL wunderkid, but personally I don't see it at all. . .


Exactly. Although i dont think Tebow will be that great at the NFL level i just dont want us wasting any picks in the first two rounds on QB's. Take LeFevour later on if you want to gamble on a QB. This is why i hate overhyping players because some coaches just get so gitty and lose their focus and objectivity on players as if they were kids in a candy store. Not too mention McD keeps saying that Kyle has done great and will be even better this year so why not give him the tools around him to succeed? It would make zero sense to take any QB early.

[jlarsiii]

Exactly. Although i dont think Tebow will be that great at the NFL level i just dont want us wasting any picks in the first two rounds on QB's. Take LeFevour later on if you want to gamble on a QB. This is why i hate overhyping players because some coaches just get so gitty and lose their focus and objectivity on players as if they were kids in a candy store. Not too mention McD keeps saying that Kyle has done great and will be even better this year so why not give him the tools around him to succeed? It would make zero sense to take any QB early.

I agree completely. I guess we will find out tomorrow either way.

[SOCALORADO.]

Okay, glad you could give me the insight. Just trying to say that picking Tebow scares the crap out of me. If he is selected by McD it would not piss me off, it would disappoint me. I just think we could do better. . .

Just rang him back and told him you were a bit concerned about Tebow.
He started yapping about his resume and this and that, and you know the usual crappola about how "I am so smart" and "I engineered the greatest offense ever" and blah, blah blah.
Anyways, he said Tebows the next Tom Brady and your a stoopid, doo doo head.

[MileHighCrew]

Just rang him back and told him you were a bit concerned about Tebow.
He started yapping about his resume and this and that, and you know the usual crappola about how "I am so smart" and "I engineered the greatest offense ever" and blah, blah blah.
Anyways, he said Tebows the next Tom Brady and your a stoopid, doo doo head.

I learned something new today. I didn't know Tom Brady was better suited as a situational runningback than a QB with poor throwing motion coming out of college too. Now i feel better thanks

[jlarsiii]

Just rang him back and told him you were a bit concerned about Tebow.
He started yapping about his resume and this and that, and you know the usual crappola about how "I am so smart" and "I engineered the greatest offense ever" and blah, blah blah.
Anyways, he said Tebows the next Tom Brady and your a stoopid, doo doo head.

Dammit, the dreaded stoopid doo doo head! No wonder MickeyD never invites me to the parties. I've got the stinky head!!

I need help to get back into his good graces. Maybe if I ring his celly and tell him exactly what he should do in the draft he will welcome me with open arms. :lol:

[MileHighCrew]

Dammit, the dreaded stoopid doo doo head! No wonder MickeyD never invites me to the parties. I've got the stinky head!!

I need help to get back into his good graces. Maybe if I ring his celly and tell him exactly what he should do in the draft he will welcome me with open arms. :lol:

Send him a Patroits T-shirt for his birthday and you'll be family

[SOCALORADO.]

Dammit, the dreaded stoopid doo doo head! No wonder MickeyD never invites me to the parties. I've got the stinky head!!

I need help to get back into his good graces. Maybe if I ring his celly and tell him exactly what he should do in the draft he will welcome me with open arms. :lol:

He has "Pay As You Go", and hes almost outta minutes and the drafts tommorow, and he swears some guy named Pats gonna be hassling him all day so.............

[CoachChaz]

If McD or any coach bets on a pretty unproven QB as in Orton or Quinn, he's going to need to have something waiting in the wings. The Eagles drafted Kolb in the 2nd round a few years ago while McNabb was in his prime. Now it allows them to trade McNabb and have a guy they feel secure handing the team over to.

They do this with a lot of positions because they have themselves in a position to be able to draft depth. We have 4 picks in the first 3 rounds and maybe more if we make a deal to move back. So out of 4 or 5 picks, can we really expect to find potential impact players at every pick and position? Highly unlikely. I think Tebow comes with the same 50/50 shot at being successful as any other player and would probably be an immediate improvement over branstater. After this season, you have an idea of where Orton is...where Quinn is and how Tebow has progressed. If Orton isnt any better and you have faith in Quinn for a year and Tebow is making strides, then you let Orton walk next season. let Quinn take the reigns for a year and let Tebow continue to develop. if he has the time to do that in an oddense that suits him and with a coahc that can help him progress, then you have your "franchise QB".

Meanwhile, you've still added to 2 or 3 other areas in the early rounds in the process. I guess I just dont see how so many people can complain about Orton and Quinn and in the same breath state that they'd throw a fit if we drafted Tebow.

[jlarsiii]

Send him a Patroits T-shirt for his birthday and you'll be family

Brilliant idea! I will get right on that. :beer:

[jlarsiii]

He has "Pay As You Go", and hes almost outta minutes and the drafts tommorow, and he swears some guy named Pats gonna be hassling him all day so.............

Hey, the next time you talk to him would you put in a good word for me? I hate being the stinky head. . .

[Traveler]

Tebow in the first round= No!

Tebow in the second round (if we can get another 2nd by trading back)=I can live with.

[jlarsiii]

If McD or any coach bets on a pretty unproven QB as in Orton or Quinn, he's going to need to have something waiting in the wings. The Eagles drafted Kolb in the 2nd round a few years ago while McNabb was in his prime. Now it allows them to trade McNabb and have a guy they feel secure handing the team over to.

They do this with a lot of positions because they have themselves in a position to be able to draft depth. We have 4 picks in the first 3 rounds and maybe more if we make a deal to move back. So out of 4 or 5 picks, can we really expect to find potential impact players at every pick and position? Highly unlikely. I think Tebow comes with the same 50/50 shot at being successful as any other player and would probably be an immediate improvement over branstater. After this season, you have an idea of where Orton is...where Quinn is and how Tebow has progressed. If Orton isnt any better and you have faith in Quinn for a year and Tebow is making strides, then you let Orton walk next season. let Quinn take the reigns for a year and let Tebow continue to develop. if he has the time to do that in an oddense that suits him and with a coahc that can help him progress, then you have your "franchise QB".

Meanwhile, you've still added to 2 or 3 other areas in the early rounds in the process. I guess I just dont see how so many people can complain about Orton and Quinn and in the same breath state that they'd throw a fit if we drafted Tebow.

I see the point you are trying to make. To me if we take Tebow in the 1st or 2nd round it would mean that he is not that much of a project. IMO early QB picks should be ready to step in to the backup position as a rookie, and then be ready to take the full reins if needed by his second year. If that is the case then why did we pick up Quinn? It makes no sense if we take Tebow because in effect we could dump Orton after next season and Tebow should be ready to go. If we dump Orton and have Quinn take over the starting role and keep Tebow as a backup then it would mean Tebow is more of a project then it appears or he is only really good enough for the backup role. Neither of those would indicate he is worth a high draft pick selection IMO.

I still remain confused about the logic behind drafting Tebow.

[Lonestar]

I agree, but i also would add that i think MCD also has a bit of pressure on him now with the trades of the QB,WR,TE.
So although i think he wants to do as you said and fill the potholes, i think he also wants to make a bit of a splash, and have the 1st 3 players he takes, be impact players, who will be plug and play types. excluding possibly Tebow of course if he was to take him 1st. The more picks, the better for MCD.

My take on it is Pat has been on board with all the moves we have made so far, getting rid of the divas that is.

I also believe that Pat early likes this kid even though we got rid of these guys.

I do not believe he is under any more pressure than any other HC/GM is any year.

If he picks 7 duds there will be changes somewhere probably starting in the scouting department going up to GM before the HC is changed. Pat has his finger on the pulse of this team and what is going on much more than in the past, IMHO. He wants to make sure he does not get into mike could do anything and only have to tell/explain it to him after the fact.


If that is the case then why take Tebow at all? If we have defined needs and can fill them with quality players through the draft, then why would we waste a pick for a position where we already have 3 players on the roster at that particular position.

To me, if we draft Tebow or any other QB in the early rounds of the draft it will mean that for the last 15 months McD has had no concrete plan for the QB position. Trade with Chicago because he liked Orton, sign Simms, draft Brandstater, release Simms, trade for Quinn, and now draft a QB early in 2010??? All that says is "I can't evaluate QB talent because all these guys have not met my expectations." Now I am supposed to believe that a coach who may not be able to evaluate QB talent that well is set on taking a run-first QB with throwing mechanics issues, and that he will be the answer?

If we waste an early pick on Tebow and fail to fill other areas of need in one of deepest drafts in recent history then it will leave me :confused: about McD's plan for this team. I guess it could be a shrewd move if Tebow turns into the next NFL wunderkid, but personally I don't see it at all. . .

Actually I think Josh has a plan but with all of these meetings with Tebow he has gotten more enamored with how good he could be. Remember his motto that no one is exempt from being replaced. Or having more competition for a spot can't hurt the starter but only make him better.

I do not think that Tebow would be an instant started and that he is going to take a year or more of LOTS of coaching to make him into a QB .. But he brings a lot of things to the table because he is so versatile. he is a great athlete, he is smart, and fast all those things that Josh so likes in players.

They would not have had another visit with him if they did not have a plan for the guy, IMHO.


If we can move back in the draft to somewhere before MIN or JAX if they move back then we not only get Tebow a box office hit for most fans but another draft choice in the second of third where all the values are. Especially OLINE and back NT and DEs are.

there is also a lot of ILB depth this year. having 5-6 picks in the top 100 is not a bad thing.

[SOCALORADO.]

I see the point you are trying to make. To me if we take Tebow in the 1st or 2nd round it would mean that he is not that much of a project. IMO early QB picks should be ready to step in to the backup position as a rookie, and then be ready to take the full reins if needed by his second year. If that is the case then why did we pick up Quinn? It makes no sense if we take Tebow because in effect we could dump Orton after next season and Tebow should be ready to go. If we dump Orton and have Quinn take over the starting role and keep Tebow as a backup then it would mean Tebow is more of a project then it appears or he is only really good enough for the backup role. Neither of those would indicate he is worth a high draft pick selection IMO.

I still remain confused about the logic behind drafting Tebow.

Well, who knows what role Tebow will play? Maybe as a wildcat he will be a very productive player, as he assumes more and more of the QB positions role, eventually moving Qwinn to the back up role. Meanwhile MCD now has the resume with Qwinn to offer him, much like Cassell as trade bait.
Also, Qwinn was a steal, DEn really lost nothing in that trade, so dumping Orton, who we all know is a career back up, and having 2 young guys to develop might be just what MCD wants.

[Lonestar]

If McD or any coach bets on a pretty unproven QB as in Orton or Quinn, he's going to need to have something waiting in the wings. The Eagles drafted Kolb in the 2nd round a few years ago while McNabb was in his prime. Now it allows them to trade McNabb and have a guy they feel secure handing the team over to.

They do this with a lot of positions because they have themselves in a position to be able to draft depth. We have 4 picks in the first 3 rounds and maybe more if we make a deal to move back. So out of 4 or 5 picks, can we really expect to find potential impact players at every pick and position? Highly unlikely. I think Tebow comes with the same 50/50 shot at being successful as any other player and would probably be an immediate improvement over branstater. After this season, you have an idea of where Orton is...where Quinn is and how Tebow has progressed. If Orton isnt any better and you have faith in Quinn for a year and Tebow is making strides, then you let Orton walk next season. let Quinn take the reigns for a year and let Tebow continue to develop. if he has the time to do that in an oddense that suits him and with a coahc that can help him progress, then you have your "franchise QB".

Meanwhile, you've still added to 2 or 3 other areas in the early rounds in the process. I guess I just dont see how so many people can complain about Orton and Quinn and in the same breath state that they'd throw a fit if we drafted Tebow.

great post and the hilited portion is spot on.

Having a Tebow on the shelf for years 3 and 4 of his contract will not hurt the franchise at all.

Everyone was at his pro day and he visited a lot of teams. The worst case is he winds up as a slash player, something that could cause a lot of defenses major havoc on third and short.

[SOCALORADO.]

My take on it is Pat has been on board with all the moves we have made so far, getting rid of the divas that is.

I also believe that Pat early likes this kid even though we got rid of these guys.

I do not believe he is under any more pressure than any other HC/GM is any year.

If he picks 7 duds there will be changes somewhere probably starting in the scouting department going up to GM before the HC is changed. Pat has his finger on the pulse of this team and what is going on much more than in the past, IMHO. He wants to make sure he does not get into mike could do anything and only have to tell/explain it to him after the fact.



Actually I think Josh has a plan but with all of these meetings with Tebow he has gotten more enamored with how good he could be. Remember his motto that no one is exempt from being replaced. Or having more competition for a spot can't hurt the starter but only make him better.

I do not think that Tebow would be an instant started and that he is going to take a year or more of LOTS of coaching to make him into a QB .. But he brings a lot of things to the table because he is so versatile. he is a great athlete, he is smart, and fast all those things that Josh so likes in players.

They would not have had another visit with him if they did not have a plan for the guy, IMHO.



If we can move back in the draft to somewhere before MIN or JAX if they move back then we not only get Tebow a box office hit for most fans but another draft choice in the second of third where all the values are. Especially OLINE and back NT and DEs are.

there is also a lot of ILB depth this year. having 5-6 picks in the top 100 is not a bad thing.

I dont mean pressure from a firing standpoint. I mean, i think its the state of DEN and himself with all the moves hes had to make putting a bit of pressure on rectifying these positions and making a splash.
And yes, i think MCD has a plan, and it involves Tim Tebow.
Sorry if that pisses off other posters. I guess we'll find out tommorow.

[Lonestar]

I see the point you are trying to make. To me if we take Tebow in the 1st or 2nd round it would mean that he is not that much of a project. IMO early QB picks should be ready to step in to the backup position as a rookie, and then be ready to take the full reins if needed by his second year. If that is the case then why did we pick up Quinn? It makes no sense if we take Tebow because in effect we could dump Orton after next season and Tebow should be ready to go. If we dump Orton and have Quinn take over the starting role and keep Tebow as a backup then it would mean Tebow is more of a project then it appears or he is only really good enough for the backup role. Neither of those would indicate he is worth a high draft pick selection IMO.



I still remain confused about the logic behind drafting Tebow. We took quinn because he was an uber cheap pick up. We took him before we had the last set down with Tebow.

sometimes ideas grow and we were not ready to make the commitment when BQ became available.

It would be tetra to have 3 guys on the shelf going into TC than to have 1 that is worth a crap.

[jlarsiii]

Actually I think Josh has a plan but with all of these meetings with Tebow he has gotten more enamored with how good he could be. Remember his motto that no one is exempt from being replaced. Or having more competition for a spot can't hurt the starter but only make him better.

I do not think that Tebow would be an instant started and that he is going to take a year or more of LOTS of coaching to make him into a QB .. But he brings a lot of things to the table because he is so versatile. he is a great athlete, he is smart, and fast all those things that Josh so likes in players.

They would not have had another visit with him if they did not have a plan for the guy, IMHO.


If we can move back in the draft to somewhere before MIN or JAX if they move back then we not only get Tebow a box office hit for most fans but another draft choice in the second of third where all the values are. Especially OLINE and back NT and DEs are.

there is also a lot of ILB depth this year. having 5-6 picks in the top 100 is not a bad thing.

I agree somewhat. McD has stated he likes the competition thing to put pressure on players to perform to the max, but he also has not brought in competition for positions he considers locks as starters. I mean, if he truly would draft to increase competition then we could stay at 11 and pick another premier OLT and let him compete with Clady for a starting spot. Something tells me that McD won't do that though. Why?

If he likes, or believes, in Orton or Quinn or Brandstater to be the man then why draft a QB high in the draft this year. I am starting to get a little tired of the coach speak by McD. He states he expects even bigger and better things out of Orton, but then he trades for Quinn. He states that Orton is still the starter, but how many people believe that now? Now it appears that we will go after Tebow, unless it is a smoke screen, which further muddies the picture.

If we take Tebow then I will find it exceedingly hard to believe anything that comes from the mouth of McD, and that doesn't really garner a lot of trust from me as a person and a fan.

[Traveler]

great post and the hilited portion is spot on.

Having a Tebow on the shelf for years 3 and 4 of his contract will not hurt the franchise at all.

Everyone was at his pro day and he visited a lot of teams. The worst case is he winds up as a slash player, something that could cause a lot of defenses major havoc on third and short.

Not sure if you are being serious or not. Wouldn't make sense financially to coach him up for three years, only to lose him to another team.

[jlarsiii]

Well, who knows what role Tebow will play? Maybe as a wildcat he will be a very productive player, as he assumes more and more of the QB positions role, eventually moving Qwinn to the back up role. Meanwhile MCD now has the resume with Qwinn to offer him, much like Cassell as trade bait.
Also, Qwinn was a steal, DEn really lost nothing in that trade, so dumping Orton, who we all know is a career back up, and having 2 young guys to develop might be just what MCD wants.

I could see that. Only time will tell. At least we will know in the next 48 hours either way.

[Lonestar]

I dont mean pressure from a firing standpoint. I mean, i think its the state of DEN and himself with all the moves hes had to make putting a bit of pressure on rectifying these positions and making a splash.
And yes, i think MCD has a plan, and it involves Tim Tebow.
Sorry if that pisses off other posters. I guess we'll find out tommorow.
OK I get it

So many folks think if he blows one pick in the upcoming draft that he should be fired, for that matter he should be fired because they do not like him or hate him.

Tebow would be a huge splash there is not doubt about it, and I do not think he would be contemplating this move IF Pat was not on board with it.

Tebow would be an instant box office draw because he is one of the most hyped college players that I can remember.

I would hope we do not use the 11 pick on him but be able to move back 7-8 spots and still get a 2 to go along with it.

[Lonestar]

Not sure if you are being serious or not. Wouldn't make sense financially to coach him up for three years, only to lose him to another team.

That was not what I meant but can see how you took it that way.

I meant having him on the shelf for 3 years learning the position would not hurt him at all IF it took that long, from what I have hard he is really a smart kid that only has some flaws in his delivery if that can be corrected then he would be on the shelf for a shorter time frame.

If it can't be fixed then he is not worse than a slash QB/H-back/TE wanna be. a hell of an athlete never hurt any team.

[Lonestar]

I could see that. Only time will tell. At least we will know in the next 48 hours either way.
actually about 30-32 or so.

[jlarsiii]

OK I get it

So many folks think if he blows one pick in the upcoming draft that he should be fired, for that matter he should be fired because they do not like him or hate him.

Tebow would be a huge splash there is not doubt about it, and I do not think he would be contemplating this move IF Pat was not on board with it.

Tebow would be an instant box office draw because he is one of the most hyped college players that I can remember.

I would hope we do not use the 11 pick on him but be able to move back 7-8 spots and still get a 2 to go along with it.

I think it can be dangerous when you put words in other's mouths. I hope you are not speaking for me because I don't believe that to be the case. Teams make errors with picks in every draft. That is the nature of the NFL and the inexact science which is the draft.

I like to debate possible moves. I like some and disagree with others. The fun is in hearing differing viewpoints. Sometimes I am swayed and sometimes I am not. I will be disappointed if we take Tebow in the 1st. Such is life. I didn't want Orton or Quinn either, but I can wait to see if those moves work out for the team.

Overall I think McD will succeed or be replaced based on how he directs the team, not on if he blows a single draft pick.

[SOCALORADO.]

OK I get it

So many folks think if he blows one pick in the upcoming draft that he should be fired, for that matter he should be fired because they do not like him or hate him.

Tebow would be a huge splash there is not doubt about it, and I do not think he would be contemplating this move IF Pat was not on board with it.

Tebow would be an instant box office draw because he is one of the most hyped college players that I can remember.

I would hope we do not use the 11 pick on him but be able to move back 7-8 spots and still get a 2 to go along with it.

Dead on. This is what i think is what they are trying to engineer as we type.
The whole Rapistberger trade rumors that just heated up in the last hour might play into DEN somehow aquiring Tebow! Weird. I cannot believe PITT would actually trade away Ben, but they do have a rep to maintain.
If i was the owner of thr Rams, i would look hard at getting Ben over an unproven player like Bradford. I think with the state of that franchise you have to at least look at it.

[Lancane]

OK I get it

So many folks think if he blows one pick in the upcoming draft that he should be fired, for that matter he should be fired because they do not like him or hate him.

Tebow would be a huge splash there is not doubt about it, and I do not think he would be contemplating this move IF Pat was not on board with it.

Tebow would be an instant box office draw because he is one of the most hyped college players that I can remember.

I would hope we do not use the 11 pick on him but be able to move back 7-8 spots and still get a 2 to go along with it.

Agreed, Tebow is a media meal-ticket. He's more popular then those quarterbacks rated above him. Besides a few mechanic issues, Tim has the athletic ability to be a 'Franchise Quarterback', we know he needs at least a full year or more to fully develop. He would be the highest profiled quarterback to come to Denver since Elway and look how that went with the fandom, Denver went Elway-crazy when we traded for him.

Orton, Brandstater and Quinn are still unknowns, unless Quinn or Brandstater are really considered within the organization as the 'future'? And like Shanahan said, "anytime you can get that player, that guy, you feel will be a franchise quarterback, then you draft him no matter who's on the roster."

[CoachChaz]

great post and the hilited portion is spot on.

Having a Tebow on the shelf for years 3 and 4 of his contract will not hurt the franchise at all.

Everyone was at his pro day and he visited a lot of teams. The worst case is he winds up as a slash player, something that could cause a lot of defenses major havoc on third and short.

He could be Matt Jones without te alcoholism issues. Who knows. I just think that if we can move back and add another 2nd or 3rd round pick, then I'd be more than happy to draft him. Maybe then package a 2nd and 3rd to get back up into the late forst or earlier 2nd. Lots of options.

[Traveler]

OK I get it

So many folks think if he blows one pick in the upcoming draft that he should be fired, for that matter he should be fired because they do not like him or hate him.

Tebow would be a huge splash there is not doubt about it, and I do not think he would be contemplating this move IF Pat was not on board with it.

Tebow would be an instant box office draw because he is one of the most hyped college players that I can remember.

I would hope we do not use the 11 pick on him but be able to move back 7-8 spots and still get a 2 to go along with it.

And therein lies the rub for me. While Tebow did some fantastic things in college, selecting him in the first makes no sense IMO.

He's not an NFL ready QB and might never become the QBOTF this team needs.

My hope is the Bronco FO focuses on and solidifies the trenches in this draft. It would bring much needed stability for quite some time and allow them to select an NFL ready QBOTF in upcoming drafts.

[Tempus Fugit]

And therein lies the rub for me. While Tebow did some fantastic things in college, selecting him in the first makes no sense IMO.

He's not an NFL ready QB and might never become the QBOTF this team needs.

My hope is the Bronco FO focuses on and solidifies the trenches in this draft. It would bring much needed stability for quite some time and allow them to select an NFL ready QBOTF in upcoming drafts.

Sanchez went at #5 last season. He was not NFL ready.

[jlarsiii]

He could be Matt Jones without te alcoholism issues. Who knows. I just think that if we can move back and add another 2nd or 3rd round pick, then I'd be more than happy to draft him. Maybe then package a 2nd and 3rd to get back up into the late forst or earlier 2nd. Lots of options.

I thought Matt Jones had a coke problem?

Anyway if taking Tebow is a foregone conclusion then I would rather trade back in the 1st and gain another pick then trade away more picks to move up to take him. We will need the other picks to fill holes in the roster, and I would like to keep the picks we have to do just that.

[Traveler]

Sanchez went at #5 last season. He was not NFL ready.

HA! HA! HA!:rolleyes:

[jlarsiii]

Sanchez went at #5 last season. He was not NFL ready.

Can you explain what you mean by 'he was not NFL ready'?

[Tempus Fugit]

HA! HA! HA!:rolleyes:

What's with the rolling eyes? Teams use first round picks to take quarterbacks that are not NFL ready all the time. Sanchez was an obvious example.

I'm not saying that the Broncos should, or should not, draft Tebow. I'm pointing out that teams often take QBs that aren't ready. In fact, finding an NFL ready QB is the exception, not the rule.

[Ziggy]

Not sure if you are being serious or not. Wouldn't make sense financially to coach him up for three years, only to lose him to another team.

The 1st round picks get 5 year contracts, 2nd round picks get 4 year contracts. Either way, Tebow should be starting in his 2nd-3rd year on a team. Until that point, you can use him in a variety of different ways, including the wild horses formation for 10-15 plays per game. He could play the Pat White role in his first year, and hopefully develop from there.

Last year, the knock on McD was that he wasn't patient enough in the draft. I'm one of the biggest critics. This year, he may take a 1st round pick that requires patience to develop. Tebow won't be around in the 2nd round. It's that simple. If McD wants him, he's going to have to take him in the 1st.

Then again, this may all be a ploy to get Jacksonville to pull the trigger on Tebow at 10 so another player can drop to us at 11, or we can be in the prime trade spot in the 1st round. People have written off the possibility of him going at 10, but he could single-handedly keep that franchise from having to move to another city because of the lack of ticket sales.

[Lonestar]

I think it can be dangerous when you put words in other's mouths. I hope you are not speaking for me because I don't believe that to be the case. Teams make errors with picks in every draft. That is the nature of the NFL and the inexact science which is the draft.

I like to debate possible moves. I like some and disagree with others. The fun is in hearing differing viewpoints. Sometimes I am swayed and sometimes I am not. I will be disappointed if we take Tebow in the 1st. Such is life. I didn't want Orton or Quinn either, but I can wait to see if those moves work out for the team.

Overall I think McD will succeed or be replaced based on how he directs the team, not on if he blows a single draft pick.


Not pointing at you but there are many folks that hate Josh for a multitude o reasons justified or not.

That is their right, whether it is right or wrong.

Josh will indeed sink or swim with his direction of the team, many hope winning gold medals, with a few other hoping for his demise.

[Tempus Fugit]

Can you explain what you mean by 'he was not NFL ready'?

Sure. He wasn't ready to be an NFL quarterback. Outside of JaMarcus Russell, he was the worst starting QB in the NFL last season. Carroll was right about the kid. He needed another year in college. Whether he's ever worth a damn in the NFL is still to be determined, but he was horrible last season.

[Lancane]

HA! HA! HA!:rolleyes:

Actually he wasn't what is considered a pro ready quarterback, but some of the best are not consider such either. Of course if we have drafted him last year like I had hoped, then we wouldn't be talking about this now.

[Ziggy]

Can you explain what you mean by 'he was not NFL ready'?

Sanchez was a project QB. While some looked at him as the most NFL ready QB in the draft, he wasn't. He went to a team with the best defense and best running game in the NFL, and was still horrible his rookie year. Imagine how bad he would have been on a team without a good offensive line, running game, and defense.

[Lonestar]

And therein lies the rub for me. While Tebow did some fantastic things in college, selecting him in the first makes no sense IMO.

He's not an NFL ready QB and might never become the QBOTF this team needs.

My hope is the Bronco FO focuses on and solidifies the trenches in this draft. It would bring much needed stability for quite some time and allow them to select an NFL ready QBOTF in upcoming drafts.


I agree I would not like him at 11 but if we are unable to move back then I think Josh would pull the trigger on him there IF he wants him that bad.

I have always been a firm believer that the LOS issues should always be the first priority going back to BEfore foster was a bust.

BUT there are always going to be first round busts regardless of how good the scouting staff did their job. You only have to look back at our choices for the past 20 years or so.

SO one more would not make me think of O'Ding or hiding the knives.

I think that all first rounders with perhaps the exception of QB's should be instant starters or having the ability to do so. SOmetimes they have to set out a year or two if they are behind pro bowlers. Someday I hope we get to the point of being able by having such a strong team that we are drafting for the year after next starters.

Drafting Tebow would not bother me at all IF we plug the other holes, OC, OLG and DE with a backup apprentice at NT in rounds 2 and 3.

[^^^]

I think this is interesting and somewhat likely. The fact that it hasnt happened yet, I think, either tells you that theres a player they want at 11 or that there's a player they who they think wont be there at where Philly picks (eg Pouncey).

Its been out there that Philadelphia wants to move up to take Berry or Thomas.

[Ziggy]

I think this is interesting and somewhat likely. The fact that it hasnt happened yet, I think, either tells you that theres a player they want at 11 or that there's a player they who they think wont be there at where Philly picks (eg Pouncey).

Its been out there that Philadelphia wants to move up to take Berry or Thomas.

If a trade down does happen, it won't happen until we're on the clock unless we get ridiculous value. You don't want to move down from the 11th spot only to find out that a guy like Eric Berry could have been a Bronco if you had just been more patient.

[jlarsiii]

Sure. He wasn't ready to be an NFL quarterback. Outside of JaMarcus Russell, he was the worst starting QB in the NFL last season. Carroll was right about the kid. He needed another year in college. Whether he's ever worth a damn in the NFL is still to be determined, but he was horrible last season.

Thanks. I didn't really follow the whole Sanchez thing because I felt strongly that we were not going to draft him. I remember Carroll saying that about him though.

[^^^]

If a trade down does happen, it won't happen until we're on the clock unless we get ridiculous value. You don't want to move down from the 11th spot only to find out that a guy like Eric Berry could have been a Bronco if you had just been more patient.

Well that same reasoning should have applied to trading Scheffler and a 7th for a 5th.

[Tempus Fugit]

Well that same reasoning should have applied to trading Scheffler and a 7th for a 5th.

Unless you think Scheffler could have brought back Berry in return, you're conflating separate issues. Picks are not players, and vice versa.

[Ziggy]

Well that same reasoning should have applied to trading Scheffler and a 7th for a 5th.

This draft is very deep in receiving TE's. An unhappy, one dimensional tight end who is a RFA just doesn't have much value. The Broncos got the equivalent of a mid 5th round pick for him. I really wanted to see a 4th, but it wasn't going to happen.

[^^^]

Unless you think Scheffler could have brought back Berry in return, you're conflating separate issues. Picks are not players, and vice versa.

Not really. Scheffler has trade value thats hard to quantify and probably has more value if he's not the central piece of the trade. Also, as it is now there might be 8 teams going after 4 TEs in the draft. They all cant get one but right now, they all think they could get one that way. Once the last TE goes off the board, Schefflers stock goes up if he is the centerpiece of a trade.

[Tempus Fugit]

Not really. Scheffler has trade value thats hard to quantify and probably has more value if he's not the central piece of the trade. Also, as it is now there might be 8 teams going after 4 TEs in the draft. They all cant get one but right now, they all think they could get one that way. Once the last TE goes off the board, Schefflers stock goes up if he is the centerpiece of a trade.

1.) Scheffler's trade value was a mid 5th round pick. It's easily quantified at this point.

2.) You're wildly overrating Scheffler.

[^^^]

1.) Scheffler's trade value was a mid 5th round pick. It's easily quantified at this point.

2.) You're wildly overrating Scheffler.

And Denver was asking for a 3rd. Denver accepted a 5th because they panicked and settled.

How am I overrating Scheffler? The guy can play. What diminishes his value is the availability of comparable options via the draft and the notion that Denver wants to get rid of him. This is distorting his value. Once the draft starts those elements are diminished.

[Ziggy]

And Denver was asking for a 3rd. Denver accepted a 5th because they panicked and settled.

How am I overrating Scheffler? The guy can play. What diminishes his value is the availability of comparable options via the draft and the notion that Denver wants to get rid of him. This is distorting his value. Once the draft starts those elements are diminished.

You have no clue what Denver was asking for Scheff. Yes, he can catch. He's also a huge liability in the run game. He also wanted out. He also will require a new contract to keep after this season. A draft pick will be in the fold for 3-5 years. At this point, a draft pick was much more desirable than having Scheff, and it looks like most teams agreed. Even Detroit only took him after he agreed not to seek a new contract this year.

[Tempus Fugit]

And Denver was asking for a 3rd. Denver accepted a 5th because they panicked and settled.

How am I overrating Scheffler? The guy can play. What diminishes his value is the availability of comparable options via the draft and the notion that Denver wants to get rid of him. This is distorting his value. Once the draft starts those elements are diminished.

As I said, his value was a mid 5th rounder, and you're wildly overvaluing him. Also, players tend to have less value on draft day, not more.

[^^^]

You have no clue what Denver was asking for Scheff. Yes, he can catch. He's also a huge liability in the run game. He also wanted out. He also will require a new contract to keep after this season. A draft pick will be in the fold for 3-5 years. At this point, a draft pick was much more desirable than having Scheff, and it looks like most teams agreed. Even Detroit only took him after he agreed not to seek a new contract this year.

This doesnt really address what I said especially since I already acknowledged that comparable TEs in the draft diminished his value. Apparently you didnt read the part I said that not every team looking for a TE will get one of the TEs with comparabale skill sets. Therefore, once the last of those (probably Hernandez) is off the boar, Scheffler's value increases because some teams will not get one of those TEs.

[^^^]

As I said, his value was a mid 5th rounder, and you're wildly overvaluing him. Also, players tend to have less value on draft day, not more.

Ive already gone over the moving pieces and why they panicked and settled for less than value.

The way they went about this was not shrewd.

[Tempus Fugit]

Ive already gone over the moving pieces and why they panicked and settled for less than value.

The way they went about this was not shrewd.

Yes, I understand what you did. You stated an opinion which runs counter to the known facts, and you based it on your 'optimistic' opinion of Scheffler's abilities.

[^^^]

Yes, I understand what you did. You stated an opinion which runs counter to the known facts.

Its a known fact that they didnt panic? That sounds more like opinion.

[Tempus Fugit]

Its a known fact that they didnt panic? That sounds more like opinion.

Yes, your claim of panic was opinion. As I posted:


You stated an opinion which runs counter to the known facts...

[^^^]

Yes, your claim of panic was opinion. As I posted:

No, you hve no way of knowing that they didnt settle. Stop trying to claim some mythical high ground.

[Buff]

And Denver was asking for a 3rd. Denver accepted a 5th because they panicked and settled.

How am I overrating Scheffler? The guy can play. What diminishes his value is the availability of comparable options via the draft and the notion that Denver wants to get rid of him. This is distorting his value. Once the draft starts those elements are diminished.

This is the equivalent of playing monday morning QB, except it's actually slightly more nonsensical because you're not analyzing split second decisions, you're just assuming that you'd do a better job than the current GM based on really nothing at all.

As armchair GM you assume that you could have found a better deal than the head coach and the general manager--who actually get paid to do this sort of thing year round. As if they didn't consider every possibility to get the most value out of the player. It's just a silly argument that you can't back up.

[Tempus Fugit]

No, you hve no way of knowing that they didnt settle. Stop trying to claim some mythical high ground.

I know what was gotten for him. That's fact. There's nothing mythical about that 'high ground'.

[^^^]

This is the equivalent of playing monday morning QB, except it's actually slightly more nonsensical because you're not analyzing split second decisions, you're just assuming that you'd do a better job than the current GM based on really nothing at all.

As armchair GM you assume that you could have found a better deal than the head coach and the general manager--who actually get paid to do this sort of thing year round. As if they didn't consider every possibility to get the most value out of the player. It's just a silly argument that you can't back up.

I understand economics and know the effect of substitute products have on price. Its not really voodoo.

[^^^]

I know what was gotten for him. That's fact. There's nothing mythical about that 'high ground'.

OK, well explain to me how a fifth is the best they could have done even if they had waited but saying they were asking for a third is pure speculation.

Youre trying to have it both ways.

[Traveler]

I understand economics and know the effect of substitute products have on price. Its not really voodoo.

Buff blasted your response and this is your best comeback?

[Traveler]

This is the equivalent of playing monday morning QB, except it's actually slightly more nonsensical because you're not analyzing split second decisions, you're just assuming that you'd do a better job than the current GM based on really nothing at all.

As armchair GM you assume that you could have found a better deal than the head coach and the general manager--who actually get paid to do this sort of thing year round. As if they didn't consider every possibility to get the most value out of the player. It's just a silly argument that you can't back up.

:salute:

Hammer! Don't hurt em!


Ouch!

[Buff]

I understand economics and know the effect of substitute products have on price. Its not really voodoo.

If you presented it as a theory, like "I would have liked to see us wait until after the draft to see if we could have gotten more value for Scheffler." Then I can appreciate that line of reasoning.

But you are presenting the argument as though it is a known fact we could have gotten more for Scheff after the draft, which I don't think is the case at all. Especially considering the reports that we were shopping Scheff as early as this time last year. I think McD and Xanders probably knew exactly what his value was both before and after the draft.

[Tempus Fugit]

OK, well explain to me how a fifth is the best they could have done even if they had waited but saying they were asking for a third is pure speculation.

Youre trying to have it both ways.

I think that Buff is doing a more than excellent job of trying to explain it to you.

[Ziggy]

OK, well explain to me how a fifth is the best they could have done even if they had waited but saying they were asking for a third is pure speculation.

Youre trying to have it both ways.

And Scheff may not have gotten any interest in the draft or after. What happens then? I'm guessing you'd complain even more if they ended up releasing him for nothing at all in return.

[^^^]

Buff blasted your response and this is your best comeback?

I didnt really see it as "blasted". I think those who agree with what the team did, say this kind of stuff but are also talking out of both sides of their mouth. No one has explained to me how they were asking for a 3rd is more conjecture than a 5th was the best they could have done.

Im still waiting on an answer for that one. So, until theres really an answer on this, I guess I fail to see how there was any "blasting."

I realize you agree with his point of view and thats why youre resorting to hyperbole but its really nothing to me.

[Tempus Fugit]

I didnt really see it as "blasted". I think those who agree with what the team did, say this kind of stuff but are also talking out of both sides of their mouth. No one has explained to me how they were asking for a 3rd is more conjecture than a 5th was the best they could have done.

Im still waiting on an answer for that one. So, until theres really an answer on this, I guess I fail to see how there was any "blasting."

I realize you agree with his point of view and thats why youre resorting to hyperbole but its really nothing to me.

You seem to think that negotiations begin with asking for a lower price for what you're offering and then working your way up. That's not how it's done.

"I only want a 5th round pick for the player"
-"No, I'll give you a 4th. He's worth it."
"Well, if you're really going to force me to take that 4th, ok"

That's not the general method of trade negotiations.

[Traveler]

I didnt really see it as "blasted". I think those who agree with what the team did, say this kind of stuff but are also talking out of both sides of their mouth. No one has explained to me how they were asking for a 3rd is more conjecture than a 5th was the best they could have done.

Im still waiting on an answer for that one. So, until theres really an answer on this, I guess I fail to see how there was any "blasting."

I realize you agree with his point of view and thats why youre resorting to hyperbole but its really nothing to me.

I do agree with his point.

How's this for hyperbole? :croc:

[Buff]

I didnt really see it as "blasted". I think those who agree with what the team did, say this kind of stuff but are also talking out of both sides of their mouth. No one has explained to me how they were asking for a 3rd is more conjecture than a 5th was the best they could have done.

Im still waiting on an answer for that one. So, until theres really an answer on this, I guess I fail to see how there was any "blasting."

I realize you agree with his point of view and thats why youre resorting to hyperbole but its really nothing to me.

I guess I'm operating from a baseline assumption that McD and Xanders are trying to maximize value on any trade they execute. Therefore it stands to reason that they asked for a 3rd before they accepted a 5th.

You, on the other hand, are not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and that's fine--but it leads me to believe you have some sort of preexisting agenda if you're assuming they'd be so incompetent as to jump at the first offer that came along.

[Elevation inc]

broncos tarde down we get extra picks, denver rocks the draft we win SB....dont worry guys im physic and im here all night