Scheffler Traded

[claymore]

im willing to bet many of you are gonna eat crow about richard quinn this year. MCD smartly develops rookies behind vets where he can for year 1, and thats exactly what we saw with quinn.....people wanna call him a bust, but he actually was involved more for his blocking last year than people realize.....he is a young daniel graham.....and for peopel that dont like that????? do not underestimate how valuable a TE like graham or quinn is to a offense becasue of there blocking ever...it would be a mistake to do that...

i would much rather have quinn who can catch and block very well, over sheff who can catch but cant play 3rd and short because he cant block....if you disagree fine...your entitled to that....but i favor power and trench dominance over pretty catches once in awhile....

Proof is in the pudding. McDaniels has to actualy do one of these things you guys always say he can do.

As for Quinn I like the player, but hate the trade. Same with Smith. I think they can be successfull, I blame all failures on the coaching. (With these 2 players).

[claymore]

this is a opinion.....i think many of your forget what truly happens when a new coach comes in since we had the same 1 for 14 years....

Bowlen said he wasnt hired to rebuild if I remember correctley. I think what has happened the past year is rebuilding.

[Elevation inc]

Proof is in the pudding. McDaniels has to actualy do one of these things you guys always say he can do.

As for Quinn I like the player, but hate the trade. Same with Smith. I think they can be successfull, I blame all failures on the coaching. (With these 2 players).


i agree in a sense...i belive MCD must win...i also belives he knows this and i also belive he has modfied much for this year to fix the collapse of last season....but as you said proof is proof...and im fine with that...it doesnt bother me you dont like MCD...what bothers me is people treating sheff like god, who will be dearly missed here, when that just isnt the case.....and the peopel acting like they could have gotten more for sheff than a 5th sitting behind there computer

many of us belived we could only get a mid 4th-mid 5th pick for sheff.....it wasnt untill MCD said he wanted a third i thought he would try for it....i have no doubt he did, and no one was biting so he sent sheffler back home....rather than hold him to TC and cut him...sounds like a win win for sheff to get his playing time and prove how elite a TE he really is...haha


and quinn is well worth where we picked him and the trade....media talking heads undervalue TE's every year, they look for pretty catches, highlight reels, and blazing stats, but they forget the most crucial element to any TE really succeding in the pro's is blocking...period....otehrwise your just a stituational TE wnating the ball all the time but not getting it becasue you cant play the downs we really need ya for all game...

as for the smith thing, that is in my opinion the only blemish of the draft last year...trading that for smith was stupid....and i am doubtful anything like that happens again...i know the draft and MCD sounds very prepared for this year, way more so than his pressers before last year, where he looked liek a deer in headlights....

people knock ayers and moreno, but many forget it was the goodmans who got cutler/marshall/sheffler/doom/kuper etc etc......not shanny....in fact shanny was the most horrible 1st rd drafter i have ever met..he would have been lucky to get a ayers or moreno......

[Elevation inc]

Bowlen said he wasnt hired to rebuild if I remember correctley. I think what has happened the past year is rebuilding.

rebuilding is not what this team is doing, we are reloading and changing some wack ass philosphies we had...losing a tiny amount of me only players from 2 back to back 8-8 years with different coaches who didnt want to be here...is not rebuilding.....

[claymore]

rebuilding is not what this team is doing, we are reloading and changing some wack ass philosphies we had...losing a tiny amount of me only players from 2 back to back 8-8 years with different coaches who didnt want to be here...is not rebuilding.....

I think our turnover ratio is above 50% in a years time. I call that rebuilding.

[Ravage!!!]

Its not the "Hillis" trade by itself. Its not the "Scheffler" trade by itself. Its not the Marshall trade by itself. Its the wiping out of a VERY solid, to very good, Nucleus of talent. Its making holes that were filled with good players, and HOPING to find their replacments.

Ever try to sneak a 'sliver' of cake?? You take the small sliver, and its no big deal. Then you say to yourself "aw, that was not missed, I'll just take another sliver." Before you know it, most the cake is gone, one sliver at a time.

Its the parts of the whole. This "what did they do for us" crap is just... junk. It doesn't even make sense. What have the 'new players' done for us?

Now every player is a head-case, a disturbance, a baby....

If you can't see we are rebuilding... you are nuts. You don't get rid of a pro-bowl QB, a Pro-bowl WR, with no replacements on the team, and say "we aren't rebuilding." We weren't when McD started, but by the time we are heading into the second season, we sure as hell are.

[Elevation inc]

I think our turnover ratio is above 50% in a years time. I call that rebuilding.

you do know that are entire FA class was better than what we did have, and so is this years....you do know the only real talent we loss was cutler and marshall but new coaches get players they want period!!!.....thats not rebuilding its reloading your system your installing.......hills and sheffler have been overglorified and put on pedestals for a game here or there....thats it....


if you you feel slowik, ryan torain, webster, mcree, manuel, ekuban, engleberger, koutivides, chad jackson, glenn martinez, dewayne robertson..should i keep going...were already solid....and should still be here...yikes.....this team with shanny has been rebuilding since 2005 AFC championship game...problem is it wasnt done very well

[Ravage!!!]

if you you feel slowik, ryan torain, webster, mcree, manuel, ekuban, engleberger, koutivides, chad jackson, glenn martinez, dewayne robertson..should i keep going...were already solid....and should still be here...yikes.....this team with shanny has been rebuilding since 2005 AFC championship game...problem is it wasnt done very well

if you are going to put SLowik, you need to include Nolan.

You can't ignore the production of the players that were traded away. Especially when we don't have a replacement for them on the team. If BIG cogs of your engine is missing, and you need replace them.... you rebuild the engine, not simply add gasoline.

[Elevation inc]

Its not the "Hillis" trade by itself. Its not the "Scheffler" trade by itself. Its not the Marshall trade by itself. Its the wiping out of a VERY solid, to very good, Nucleus of talent. Its making holes that were filled with good players, and HOPING to find their replacments.

Ever try to sneak a 'sliver' of cake?? You take the small sliver, and its no big deal. Then you say to yourself "aw, that was not missed, I'll just take another sliver." Before you know it, most the cake is gone, one sliver at a time.

Its the parts of the whole. This "what did they do for us" crap is just... junk. It doesn't even make sense. What have the 'new players' done for us?

Now every player is a head-case, a disturbance, a baby....

If you can't see we are rebuilding... you are nuts. You don't get rid of a pro-bowl QB, a Pro-bowl WR, with no replacements on the team, and say "we aren't rebuilding." We weren't when McD started, but by the time we are heading into the second season, we sure as hell are.



wow wrong bro...marshall and cutler yess....stop lumping hillis and sheff into that very good young nucleus when its just not the case.....like i have repeated i dont care if you dont like him....i dont care if you are upset over marshall or cutelr not being here anymore...i just dont feel the need to trash the guy after year 1....simply becasue some players fans really liked arent here anymore.....


if those key young players you mentioned were good teammates, and had good attitudes...and this team was better than 8-8 the last 3 years before MCD got here.....im sure we wouldnt be here today...but guess what that so called good nucleus you speak of couldnt get it done for 3 years running....and couldnt even get in sync for the biggest games of the year in 2006-2008...so forgive me if im willing to try something new....


but wait MCD gets less than a year before we chop him...cutler marshall, hillis, sheffler should get 4 years??? how is that fair.....

[TXBRONC]

And you realize that to become a RFA, your contract has to expire right?

Jesus H Christ man.

First of all Jesus has nothing to do with your incompetence.

Second genius, if an RFA like Dumervil doesn't have a contract why is there concern that he we will HOLDOUT. If he doesn't have contract genius he can't HOLDOUT. :rolleyes:

[claymore]

you do know that are entire FA class was better than what we did have, and so is this years....you do know the only real talent we loss was cutler and marshall but new coaches get players they want period!!!.....thats not rebuilding its reloading your system your installing.......hills and sheffler have been overglorified and put on pedestals for a game here or there....thats it....


if you you feel slowik, ryan torain, webster, mcree, manuel, ekuban, engleberger, koutivides, chad jackson, glenn martinez, dewayne robertson..should i keep going...were already solid....and should still be here...yikes.....this team with shanny has been rebuilding since 2005 AFC championship game...problem is it wasnt done very well

So you agree we are rebuilding.

[slim]

Its not the "Hillis" trade by itself. Its not the "Scheffler" trade by itself. Its not the Marshall trade by itself. Its the wiping out of a VERY solid, to very good, Nucleus of talent. Its making holes that were filled with good players, and HOPING to find their replacments.

Ever try to sneak a 'sliver' of cake?? You take the small sliver, and its no big deal. Then you say to yourself "aw, that was not missed, I'll just take another sliver." Before you know it, most the cake is gone, one sliver at a time.

Its the parts of the whole. This "what did they do for us" crap is just... junk. It doesn't even make sense. What have the 'new players' done for us?

Now every player is a head-case, a disturbance, a baby....

If you can't see we are rebuilding... you are nuts. You don't get rid of a pro-bowl QB, a Pro-bowl WR, with no replacements on the team, and say "we aren't rebuilding." We weren't when McD started, but by the time we are heading into the second season, we sure as hell are.

Dude, stay away from my cake.

Seriously... :coffee:

[Ravage!!!]

wow wrong bro...marshall and cutler yess....stop lumping hillis and sheff into that very good young nucleus when its just not the case.....like i have repeated i dont care if you dont like him....i dont care if you are upset over marshall or cutelr not being here anymore...i just dont feel the need to trash the guy after year 1....simply becasue some players fans really liked arent here anymore.....


if those key young players you mentioned were good teammates, and had good attitudes...and this team was better than 8-8 the last 3 years before MCD got here.....im sure we wouldnt be here today...but guess what that so called good nucleus you speak of couldnt get it done for 3 years running....and couldnt even get in sync for the biggest games of the year in 2006-2008...so forgive me if im willing to try something new....


but wait CMd gets less than a year before we chop him...cutler marshall, hillis, sheffler get 4 years??? how is that fair.....


Cutler wasn't here four..the players themselves didn't even play together for four years, they played together for 2

as I stated in the post of mine you quoted, its not the individual trades, but Hilliis and Scheffler were ABSOLUTELY a part of that YOUNG nucleus... DAMN right they were. Its my opinion that you are blind not to see that. That or just choosing to ignore it because it helps your point.

Scheffler wasn't the best TE in teh NFL, but he was recognized as being pretty damned good at stretching the middle of the field, and causing matchup problems. He was BETTER when Cutler was the QB. Hillis absolutely ROCKED when in the system with Shanahan, and we could SEE the talent he possessed catching the ball and running when given the chance. SO they are pieces of a young offense that very well COULD have been a strong Nucleus to BUILD AROUND. Thats what you do with young talent.

I've noticed a LOT of patience with our rookies we have now.....but now you are telling me that we should have expected a HUGE change with the TWO WHOPPING years that these four players started together??? Really? That included ONE year with a rookie LT... ONE year with a rookie #2 WR, and 7 starting RBs in a single season.

Try to tell me this group of talent wasn't looking to be the nucleus to build around for YEARS to come, and you are fooling yourself (include Hillis or not, doesn't take away from the fact that he brought something to the table when USED. He was a viable weapon, at 250lbs catching the ball out of the backfield and running as fast as our 1st round RB does).

Getting rid of talent doesn't concern me for the single season...its for the future of this team and knowing how long its going to replace that talent. If it makes you feel better to say that we aren't in a 'rebuild' mode..... thats fine. But thats not how I see it.

[Ravage!!!]

Dude, stay away from my cake.

Seriously... :coffee:

:lol: one sliver at at time, slim... one sliver at a time!!! :beer:

[turftoad]

you do know that are entire FA class was better than what we did have, and so is this years....you do know the only real talent we loss was cutler and marshall but new coaches get players they want period!!!.....thats not rebuilding its reloading your system your installing.......hills and sheffler have been overglorified and put on pedestals for a game here or there....thats it....


if you you feel slowik, ryan torain, webster, mcree, manuel, ekuban, engleberger, koutivides, chad jackson, glenn martinez, dewayne robertson..should i keep going...were already solid....and should still be here...yikes.....this team with shanny has been rebuilding since 2005 AFC championship game...problem is it wasnt done very well

I agree with on this this, however, is it really any different than this:

Arrington, Bannan, Batiste, J. Green, B. Lloyd, Orton, R. Quinn, B. Quinn, A. Smith, L. Smith, J. Wiliams...... should I keep going?

Neither list looks very impresive to me. Granted, you have to have depth and a lot of those players are just like the ones on your list, brought in for depth.

[broncofaninfla]

We are 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, rebuilding. Over the past two years Denver has replaced a majority of thier defensive players and traded away the nucleus and talent base of the offense.

[Lancane]

rebuilding is not what this team is doing, we are reloading and changing some wack ass philosphies we had...losing a tiny amount of me only players from 2 back to back 8-8 years with different coaches who didnt want to be here...is not rebuilding.....

We're rebuilding Elevation...don't fool yourself; I've been around enough football programs in my life to know the difference between instilling a philosophy and ruinning a team through emaciation of the roster.

Name another head coach that has taken a position and totally decimated the roster, or for that matter has within two season traded a 'franchise quarterback' and a 'franchise receiver'?

A lot of people claim that Belichick cleaned house in New England, and that is erroneous, he was instilling his philosophy gradually and building off those already with the team; Bledsoe, Faulk, Brown, Glenn, Milloy, Bruschi, Law, Johnson, McGinest and a few others were already there before he took over as the head coach. it was a mixture of those on the roster and those added during the 2000 and the 2001 NFL Draft that helped define the final product, the last so-called dynasty. But those veterans listed above had as much to do with winning those championships as Belichick or those he drafted or signed in free agency.

The NFL is a business, one in which you have to prove yourself and establish yourself fairly quickly. Being as such, most General Managers and Head Coaches try to build off what they are given while they instill their own philosophies, add more talent and try to put out a polished winning product. McDaniel's went the tough route, he forced the franchise into a rebuilding state. Next year we could lose Kuper, Harris, Bailey, Thomas, Stokely and possibly Dumervil. That would leave D.J. Williams and Ryan Clady as the only two starters remaining from before McDaniels' regime...

[turftoad]

We are 100%, without a shadow of a doubt, rebuilding. Over the past two years Denver has replaced a majority of thier defensive players and traded away the nucleus and talent base of the offense.

When you dismantle, you have no choice but to rebuild.

[Elevation inc]

Cutler wasn't here four..the players themselves didn't even play together for four years, they played together for 2

as I stated in the post of mine you quoted, its not the individual trades, but Hilliis and Scheffler were ABSOLUTELY a part of that YOUNG nucleus... DAMN right they were. Its my opinion that you are blind not to see that. That or just choosing to ignore it because it helps your point.

Scheffler wasn't the best TE in teh NFL, but he was recognized as being pretty damned good at stretching the middle of the field, and causing matchup problems. He was BETTER when Cutler was the QB. Hillis absolutely ROCKED when in the system with Shanahan, and we could SEE the talent he possessed catching the ball and running when given the chance. SO they are pieces of a young offense that very well COULD have been a strong Nucleus to BUILD AROUND. Thats what you do with young talent.

I've noticed a LOT of patience with our rookies we have now.....but now you are telling me that we should have expected a HUGE change with the TWO WHOPPING years that these four players started together??? Really? That included ONE year with a rookie LT... ONE year with a rookie #2 WR, and 7 starting RBs in a single season.

Try to tell me this group of talent wasn't looking to be the nucleus to build around for YEARS to come, and you are fooling yourself (include Hillis or not, doesn't take away from the fact that he brought something to the table when USED. He was a viable weapon, at 250lbs catching the ball out of the backfield and running as fast as our 1st round RB does).

Getting rid of talent doesn't concern me for the single season...its for the future of this team and knowing how long its going to replace that talent. If it makes you feel better to say that we aren't in a 'rebuild' mode..... thats fine. But thats not how I see it.



right becasue a 5th rd pick proved that right???? lol....


i already agreed that cutler and marshall were offensive losses in some ways, but they can be replaced it aint hard...if you wanna lump hillis and sheff in that...well im not the one in need of a reality check bro....

rebuild mode is for teams like the lions and rams....we were 8-8 just like the year before with that golden nucleus you speak of...i say reloading becasue we are adding to the puzzle.....we are changing...it isnt going to be pretty and many of you are getting but hurt.....so be it i guess....life is just a little more important to me than worrying about 4 players who didnt want to be in denver anyway becasue club med was no longer the philosophy....:lol:

[Elevation inc]

if you are going to put SLowik, you need to include Nolan.

You can't ignore the production of the players that were traded away. Especially when we don't have a replacement for them on the team. If BIG cogs of your engine is missing, and you need replace them.... you rebuild the engine, not simply add gasoline.


lol.......i do concur orton isnt a replacement for cutler...so i guess we share commomn ground there:lol:...but i belive sheff, marshall and hillis to be easily replacable.....sorry thats just how it is in my eyes....

[Elevation inc]

I agree with on this this, however, is it really any different than this:

Arrington, Bannan, Batiste, J. Green, B. Lloyd, Orton, R. Quinn, B. Quinn, A. Smith, L. Smith, J. Wiliams...... should I keep going?

Neither list looks very impresive to me. Granted, you have to have depth and a lot of those players are just like the ones on your list, brought in for depth.




LOL jamal williams is far and away better than fields and dewayne robertson combined....even at his current age...bannan is a very good 3-4 DL player more so than anyone we have or had at DE in the last few years....green is the same way...if you cant see that your blind...the last time we had even a competent DL before last year was the 2005 season before it blew up in our faces...


brandon lloyd has always been a immature talent, but the immaturity is now gone and im positive he will do better for us than keary colbert or darrell jackson.....should i keep going here


brady quinn is better than chris simms...upgrade...phonzy is better than jack willaims..upgrade..kyle orton/le kevin smith is....well :lol:...i take the fifth...lol

the point is our FA pick-ups have come along way since niko, dewayne, sam adam, kennedy, travis henry...etc....

[Elevation inc]

We're rebuilding Elevation...don't fool yourself; I've been around enough football programs in my life to know the difference between instilling a philosophy and ruinning a team through emaciation of the roster.

Name another head coach that has taken a position and totally decimated the roster, or for that matter has within two season traded a 'franchise quarterback' and a 'franchise receiver'?

A lot of people claim that Belichick cleaned house in New England, and that is erroneous, he was instilling his philosophy gradually and building off those already with the team; Bledsoe, Faulk, Brown, Glenn, Milloy, Bruschi, Law, Johnson, McGinest and a few others were already there before he took over as the head coach. it was a mixture of those on the roster and those added during the 2000 and the 2001 NFL Draft that helped define the final product, the last so-called dynasty. But those veterans listed above had as much to do with winning those championships as Belichick or those he drafted or signed in free agency.

The NFL is a business, one in which you have to prove yourself and establish yourself fairly quickly. Being as such, most General Managers and Head Coaches try to build off what they are given while they instill their own philosophies, add more talent and try to put out a polished winning product. McDaniel's went the tough route, he forced the franchise into a rebuilding state. Next year we could lose Kuper, Harris, Bailey, Thomas, Stokely and possibly Dumervil. That would leave D.J. Williams and Ryan Clady as the only two starters remaining from before McDaniels' regime...



that doesnt work as well as all you wanna belive....indy, pitt, new england...thats about it....


and im sorry were going to the playoffs this year, thats not rebuilding sorry....i just forgot to tell ya all im physic....:lol:

[arapaho2]

It's not that weird. Hamilton hasn't been any good for years and Wiegmann had his age catch up with him in a hurry. On top of that, we played some of the most physical teams in the league in 2009. We didn't have to deal with Hampton, Ngata, Ratliff, Haynesworth, and Orakpo. Ngata and the Ravens first exposed our weak interior line and then Hampton and the Steelers immediately followed suit.

and none of that had anything to do with what the ravens players said..the bronco offense was very predictable...they never go deep or take the deep throw, content to hit the short stuff...and so they exposed us?..no?...all the oline suddeny just sucking...weigman despite playing at a probowl level...and having the broncos praying he comes back..just sucked all the sudden

Actually that has alot to do with it and I've said that myself repeatedly. Hamilton was done for even with the old ZBS. Put him in a scheme where speed and size is emphasized and he sucked so badly he was benched. Same thing for Wiegmann on a lesser scale.

and changing a scheme that your starting center, rg are not built for with no legit replacments is whos fault again?

Tom Brady doesn't run very well at all and yet he's elite. That's because the Pats put a premium on protecting their quarterbacks.

tom brady will move, orton wont unless its to throw it away...tom brady is well respected, orton isnt...tom brady will buy time so he can hit the deep route, orton will just dump it..tom brady will throw it deep, orton wont unless the wr is open by ten yards...brady isnt afraid to take a chance, orton is...brady isnt elite because his oline..he's elite cause hes a great qb..something orton will never be

in fact the pats only gave up 18 sacks...to the broncos 34...but brady was hit more times...whats that say? that maybe brady will avoid the sack...will move, will take the hit to complete a ball? and not just fall into the fetal position at the slightest touch like orton?

heres a brady example..in 2007 brady was sacked 21 times...in 2008 that same oline allowed cassel to be sacked 47 times...and once brady was back it was down to 18 times in 09

so was it the olines fault? they gave up twice as many sacks as they have typically done with brady?..or the qbs...oh wait they just suddenly sucked in 08...but got good again in o9...right

Oh please, give us detailed analysis on this. I can't wait to watch you try to support the argument that Kyle doesn't go through his progressions.

its not hard...one only has to look at the games....but you can also look at stats...in 2008 with cutler..roayl was thrown at 127 times...in 2009 67 times..roughly 20.5 percent of cutlers attempts went royals way...opposed to 12.75% of ortons


Dude you should just talking football, because you're absolutely in over your head here.


says the man who thinks oline penelties dont matter:coffee:


Yeah, how dare he bench a player who was so out of line that multiple well respected veterans were upset about. McHitler should have coddled Tony and worked with him on his poor hurt feelings.

uhhmm if your gonna get all swelled up ...at least get the right poster..:lol::lol:..i beleive your responding to jil now

I truly am dumbfounded at the kind of mental gymnastics some fans perform to defend a player's douchebaggery. At least be honest to say "I like this player and hate Josh so **** him he needs to bend over backwards to please the player."


n o lets be honest and say that shit coulda easily been handled in house with out the " un intended slip of info:rolleyes:"...a coach ought to be big enough to recognized players are people and have emotions also..they can say some shit they dont mean in a moment of anger..a good coach does in fact take the high road and know this...he dont leak shit to the press to make himself look good...he doesnt throw players under the bus..thats childish and he was critisized ten times more for throwing his players like TS and marshall under the bus by former players than TS was ever critisized for his words

[Northman]

This draft is McD's 2nd to last bastion of hope. the last bastion of hope is a winning season.

Very true as i agree this year he needs to make big strides from last year.


He wasnt hired to cause this much turbulence

Incorrect. He was brought in to do what he can to make this team a contender again even if it meant doing it his way. You can argue all day (and in some cases i would agree with you) that some of the pieces in place would of helped out tremendously but the bottom line is he is building the team the way he wants. If he sinks or swims time will tell.



, and not win.

Well, he went .500 when many of the (im stealing Elevations name) minions projected us to be last in the division. One year does not a coach make but again i would agree the ice is thin. ;)

[HORSEPOWER 56]

right becasue a 5th rd pick proved that right???? lol....



We gave up Scheffler and a 7th for a 5th. His value was set where WE (spoken McDaniels) set it when he publicly called out Scheffler and Marshall at the end of the season.

Scheffler is absolutely worth more than a 5th, but when we made it crystal clear we didn't want him around, his value plummeted. He was in the same boat as Santonio Holmes (not that Scheffler is facing criminal charges, but that the FO was done with him) and everyone knew it so he was traded for less than his actual value (like Holmes) just to be "rid of him". If I have a car to sell you and you know that I really need the money or really hate the car, are you going to give me my asking price or low ball me?

Frankly it really doesn't matter what any of us think about anything McDaniels has done, but anyone who thinks the team - as it stands today - is a BETTER football team now than it was Dec 31st is kidding themselves. You just can't win in this league without talent. We don't have enough. Right now, we're competing with the Cleveland Browns and St Louis Rams for the least amount of offensive talent.

If that in itself doesn't worry you, I obviously know nothing about football.

[Elevation inc]

We gave up Scheffler and a 7th for a 5th. His value was set where WE (spoken McDaniels) set it when he publicly called out Scheffler and Marshall at the end of the season.

Scheffler is absolutely worth more than a 5th, but when we made it crystal clear we didn't want him around, his value plummeted. He was in the same boat as Santonio Holmes (not that Scheffler is facing criminal charges, but that the FO was done with him) and everyone knew it so he was traded for less than his actual value (like Holmes) just to be "rid of him". If I have a car to sell you and you know that I really need the money or really hate the car, are you going to give me my asking price or low ball me?

Frankly it really doesn't matter what any of us think about anything McDaniels has done, but anyone who thinks the team - as it stands today - is a BETTER football team now than it was Dec 31st is kidding themselves. You just can't win in this league without talent. We don't have enough. Right now, we're competing with the Cleveland Browns and St Louis Rams for the least amount of offensive talent.

If that in itself doesn't worry you, I obviously know nothing about football.


MCD didnt call out sheffler, he benched him privately.....the media got wind and made it public, not MCD...he called out marshall.....sheffler value was at rd 5 becasue he cant stay healthy, drops balls, cant block, has bad attitude and states before a playoff type game he cant wait for the season to be over, becasue of his playing time and lack of pretty stats...


his selfishness, attitude and lack of ability to be a complete all round player caused the poor value...not josh MCD.....


everyone said he ruined marshalls value to, but teams were still ready to give us a 1st rd pick, marshall just didnt like the money offered...AGAIN SELFISH....


get a grip people...

[slim]

We gave up Scheffler and a 7th for a 5th. His value was set where WE (spoken McDaniels) set it when he publicly called out Scheffler and Marshall at the end of the season.

Scheffler is absolutely worth more than a 5th, but when we made it crystal clear we didn't want him around, his value plummeted. He was in the same boat as Santonio Holmes (not that Scheffler is facing criminal charges, but that the FO was done with him) and everyone knew it so he was traded for less than his actual value (like Holmes) just to be "rid of him". If I have a car to sell you and you know that I really need the money or really hate the car, are you going to give me my asking price or low ball me?

Frankly it really doesn't matter what any of us think about anything McDaniels has done, but anyone who thinks the team - as it stands today - is a BETTER football team now than it was Dec 31st is kidding themselves. You just can't win in this league without talent. We don't have enough. Right now, we're competing with the Cleveland Browns and St Louis Rams for the least amount of offensive talent.

If that in itself doesn't worry you, I obviously know nothing about football.

Agreed.

[Elevation inc]

We gave up Scheffler and a 7th for a 5th. His value was set where WE (spoken McDaniels) set it when he publicly called out Scheffler and Marshall at the end of the season.

Scheffler is absolutely worth more than a 5th, but when we made it crystal clear we didn't want him around, his value plummeted. He was in the same boat as Santonio Holmes (not that Scheffler is facing criminal charges, but that the FO was done with him) and everyone knew it so he was traded for less than his actual value (like Holmes) just to be "rid of him". If I have a car to sell you and you know that I really need the money or really hate the car, are you going to give me my asking price or low ball me?

Frankly it really doesn't matter what any of us think about anything McDaniels has done, but anyone who thinks the team - as it stands today - is a BETTER football team now than it was Dec 31st is kidding themselves. You just can't win in this league without talent. We don't have enough. Right now, we're competing with the Cleveland Browns and St Louis Rams for the least amount of offensive talent.

If that in itself doesn't worry you, I obviously know nothing about football.

well one team has jake delhome as its starter now, and the other doesnt have a QB...i wouldnt put us down there just yet.....:lol:

[Northman]

Cutler wasn't here four..the players themselves didn't even play together for four years, they played together for 2

as I stated in the post of mine you quoted, its not the individual trades, but Hilliis and Scheffler were ABSOLUTELY a part of that YOUNG nucleus... DAMN right they were. Its my opinion that you are blind not to see that. That or just choosing to ignore it because it helps your point.

Scheffler wasn't the best TE in teh NFL, but he was recognized as being pretty damned good at stretching the middle of the field, and causing matchup problems. He was BETTER when Cutler was the QB. Hillis absolutely ROCKED when in the system with Shanahan, and we could SEE the talent he possessed catching the ball and running when given the chance. SO they are pieces of a young offense that very well COULD have been a strong Nucleus to BUILD AROUND. Thats what you do with young talent.

I've noticed a LOT of patience with our rookies we have now.....but now you are telling me that we should have expected a HUGE change with the TWO WHOPPING years that these four players started together??? Really? That included ONE year with a rookie LT... ONE year with a rookie #2 WR, and 7 starting RBs in a single season.

Try to tell me this group of talent wasn't looking to be the nucleus to build around for YEARS to come, and you are fooling yourself (include Hillis or not, doesn't take away from the fact that he brought something to the table when USED. He was a viable weapon, at 250lbs catching the ball out of the backfield and running as fast as our 1st round RB does).

Getting rid of talent doesn't concern me for the single season...its for the future of this team and knowing how long its going to replace that talent. If it makes you feel better to say that we aren't in a 'rebuild' mode..... thats fine. But thats not how I see it.


Great post Rav but i will point out this was a team built by another HC. It was built on a different philosphy so despite how you felt or saw that young group being the future here its quite evident the new guy didnt feel the same way. It would seem the new guy didnt want those kinds of players on his team talented or not. Its not longer about "could" McDaniels work with those players instead of did he "want" too. And the answer would be quite clear that he wants to do it his way and he should be given a grace period to show that. If he fails, its on his shoulders. But you guys still getting bent all out of shape for players who are no longer here is just silly. How bout trying to support the guys who are here instead of crying over those who are not for once? Whether you think McD is the devil or not all of those players except Hillis had their own hand as a part of their exits so the total blame cannot fall on the HC. I know your a smart enough man to admit that right? At the end of the day man let the hate go for once and just let the man try to do his job. Its only been one year and to get worked up over one year is ridiculous on any level.

[Broncolingus]

I had a ton of fun on this thread last night...

...'F' McD! :D

...so, are we talking about (s)Chef or McD in this thread?

(s)Chef didn't want to play didn't want to play in Denver anymore - HIS prerogative totally.

(s)Chef said, '...I can't wait for the season to be over,' in the middle of key games and a (then) undecided playoff race - NOT his prerogative and not about the team.

(s)Chef is gone...

...good for him and for the Broncos I say.

[Northman]

I will add that McD can get along with "elite" players. He's dealt with the Brady's, the Moss's, Champ, and Dawkins so anyone trying to claim otherwise is just not seeing the big picture.

[Ziggy]

Rebuilding? Of course we're rebuilding. When you win exactly 1 playoff game in a decade, it's time to rebuild. Both sides should see that. The funny thing is, folks want to yell and argue that McD is rebuilding, and then not give him time to do it. How long does it take to rebuild a franchise in the NFL? According to some Broncos fans, less than 2 years.

So you guys want to make the case that we're rebuilding, and should win now. Sorry, it doesn't work that way in the salary cap era. McD has had just over 1 year to build this team, and folks want him to have it done now. If you want to be successful with a rebuilding process for the long haul, it's going to take 2-3 years minimum.

I guess the argument would be over what he inherited. He inherited an offense that was average in scoring, and horrible in red zone and short yardage situations. He inherited one of the worst defenses in the NFL. He inherited an undersized, underpowering team that collapsed down the stretch year in and year out. With less than a year to change it, people got mad that the team he inherited collapsed down the stretch again. Hmmmmm. Think about that for a minute.

You want a team that doesn't consistantly finish around 8-8? Give the guy time to change it properly. People act like the late season collapse was a surprise. It had been happening for years here folks. He changed out a good portion of the roster in one offseason with what was available. What was available in 1 offseason surely wasn't going to be enough to turn a team around. He had to settle with what he could get for the most part. With a couple of more draft and free agent classes it will be more realistic to expect a complete exodus from the old habits. Until then, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[roomemp]

We gave up Scheffler and a 7th for a 5th. His value was set where WE (spoken McDaniels) set it when he publicly called out Scheffler and Marshall at the end of the season.

Scheffler is absolutely worth more than a 5th, but when we made it crystal clear we didn't want him around, his value plummeted. He was in the same boat as Santonio Holmes (not that Scheffler is facing criminal charges, but that the FO was done with him) and everyone knew it so he was traded for less than his actual value (like Holmes) just to be "rid of him". If I have a car to sell you and you know that I really need the money or really hate the car, are you going to give me my asking price or low ball me?

Frankly it really doesn't matter what any of us think about anything McDaniels has done, but anyone who thinks the team - as it stands today - is a BETTER football team now than it was Dec 31st is kidding themselves. You just can't win in this league without talent. We don't have enough. Right now, we're competing with the Cleveland Browns and St Louis Rams for the least amount of offensive talent.

If that in itself doesn't worry you, I obviously know nothing about football.

I have another comparison......People trying to sell their house but the problem is they want too much because they are tied to it emotionally. They disregard market value

[Lancane]

that doesnt work as well as all you wanna belive....indy, pitt, new england...thats about it....


and im sorry were going to the playoffs this year, thats not rebuilding sorry....i just forgot to tell ya all im physic....:lol:

Really? Come on Elevation, don't tell me that you have forgotten football facts. Denver won two championships that way, Indianapolis nearly won a second, Pittsburgh won a championship in the same fashion, New England won three the same could be said for Tampa Bay under Gruden.

Your right, it doesn't mean shit...even though it's proven to win more championships.

And sorry to tell you that your psychic powers are waning! ;)

Oops, I forgot to mention Seifart's 49ers, Barry Switzer's Cowboys, Harbaugh's Ravens, Turner's Chargers...

[arapaho2]

He did? Let's review.

Moreno - Led all rookies in rushing. Good pick.
.


really?...ok lets look even further...sure he led all rookies in rushing...he also carried the ball 71 more times than #2 beenie wells...but only had 154 more yards...project wells 4.5 ypa average to 71 more carries and you'd see he easily woulda beat out moreno

then the fact while having 71 less carries wells equaled morenos td number

then the 3rd place rookie played for philly...not a rbs dream city

[HORSEPOWER 56]

well one team has jake delhome as its starter now, and the other doesnt have a QB...i wouldnt put us down there just yet.....:lol:

Honestly, it about evens out. Orton is average, Delhomme is average and the Rams will start a rookie next year. Clevelands WRs aren't any better than ours but they definitely aren't much worse (especially if you add in Josh Cribbs) and both teams have a better running game than we do.


Can you name 5 offenses in the league with less talent than us right now? I'm really having a hard time finding that many...

[arapaho2]

I have another comparison......People trying to sell their house but the problem is they want too much because they are tied to it emotionally. They disregard market value

heres another...if your gonna sell your home ...you dont make it public knoweledge your neighbors are the spawn of satan

[roomemp]

heres another...if your gonna sell your home ...you dont make it public knoweledge your neighbors are the spawn of satan

Wait what? :confused:

[arapaho2]

wow wrong bro...marshall and cutler yess....stop lumping hillis and sheff into that very good young nucleus when its just not the case.....like i have repeated i dont care if you dont like him....i dont care if you are upset over marshall or cutelr not being here anymore...i just dont feel the need to trash the guy after year 1....simply becasue some players fans really liked arent here anymore.....


if those key young players you mentioned were good teammates, and had good attitudes...and this team was better than 8-8 the last 3 years before MCD got here.....im sure we wouldnt be here today...but guess what that so called good nucleus you speak of couldnt get it done for 3 years running....and couldnt even get in sync for the biggest games of the year in 2006-2008...so forgive me if im willing to try something new....


but wait MCD gets less than a year before we chop him...cutler marshall, hillis, sheffler should get 4 years??? how is that fair.....


wait i thought we were talking the nucleous of the offense...which mcd destroyed without replacing with equal talent

your putting the losses of games like the 51 points the bolts put on us, to them? and not the defense!!!

look i dont care what camp your in....to put the losses in 08..o7 on anything but the defense is utterly friggen ridiculous..and shows a huge error in your or anyones football IQ

[silkamilkamonico]

your putting the losses of games like the 51 points the bolts put on us, to them? and not the defense!!!


The Miami game laughs out loud at you and this logic.

[arapaho2]

Wait what? :confused:


if your gonna sell...you dont advertise your problems

mcd knew he was gonna get rid of marshall and scheffler...you dont hurt the value by listing problems like he did in the media...quitter...didnt wanna play...headcase,,,cancer...faker...all supposed problems that were highlighted with mcds media circus

[roomemp]

if your gonna sell...you dont advertise your problems

mcd knew he was gonna get rid of marshall and scheffler...you dont hurt the value by listing problems like he did in the media...quitter...didnt wanna play...headcase,,,cancer...faker...all supposed problems that were highlighted with mcds media circus

What would you have thought if McDaniels suspended Marshall and Shef and did not give provide an explanation.

[arapaho2]

The Miami game laughs out loud at you and this logic.


so your saying being down to your last of 7 rbs....and watching the defense allow six consecutive scores is all on the offense
:confused:

so what about the miami game troubles you ...one game?...you cant look at the 28 points per season in 08..no? one game label?

was it cutlers ints..one brought back for a score?...let me remind you of the last game in 09

[Elevation inc]

Really? Come on Elevation, don't tell me that you have forgotten football facts. Denver won two championships that way, Indianapolis nearly won a second, Pittsburgh won a championship in the same fashion, New England won three the same could be said for Tampa Bay under Gruden.

Your right, it doesn't mean shit...even though it's proven to win more championships.

And sorry to tell you that your psychic powers are waning! ;)


first denver certainly didnt win in year 1 and shanny had john elway...im sorry john elway....cutler is not......


i brought up indy and pitt and new england because there system has been in place for years...thats the point....the talent was there for them after years of the same system not 1, same philosophy...shanny wasnt working we are trying something new....you all dont like the change and are just jumping the gun....its year 1 for christs sake.....he is reloading the team for a push at the playoffs something we almost achieved last year anyway with a insane schedule...with all the new unproven guys who happen to still be here minus 1major contributor and 2 minor ones....

teams win championships....you cant say the same for marshall, cutler, sheff or hillis....


and im a physic genius...my powers dont ever wan.....im the italion stallion for christs sake:lol:

[Ravage!!!]

Great post Rav but i will point out this was a team built by another HC. It was built on a different philosphy so despite how you felt or saw that young group being the future here its quite evident the new guy didnt feel the same way. It would seem the new guy didnt want those kinds of players on his team talented or not. Its not longer about "could" McDaniels work with those players instead of did he "want" too. And the answer would be quite clear that he wants to do it his way and he should be given a grace period to show that. If he fails, its on his shoulders. But you guys still getting bent all out of shape for players who are no longer here is just silly. How bout trying to support the guys who are here instead of crying over those who are not for once? Whether you think McD is the devil or not all of those players except Hillis had their own hand as a part of their exits so the total blame cannot fall on the HC. I know your a smart enough man to admit that right? At the end of the day man let the hate go for once and just let the man try to do his job. Its only been one year and to get worked up over one year is ridiculous on any level.


But North.... when McD is no longer here, the Broncos are STILL my football team. So saying its "ok, because thats how HE wants it" I understand, but absolutely do NOT agree with. If it wasn't "out of the ordinary" or "odd" that a coach would come in and trade away a young pro-bowl QB, it wouldn't have been such big news. If it wasn't a big deal that McD then couldn't get along with his pro-bowl WR, it wouldn't be big news. Lots of franchises have won Championships by keeping their best talent. Odd.

My point is simple. If/when he fails... we are STILL void of the talent HE traded away. When he's gone, he might find a OC job somewhere else, but My team.. the Broncos... are STILL left with the mess I feel he has created by removing the most dynamic talent this team has had...(and certainly the most sound nucleus of offensive talent). That just means that the NEXT regime.... is going to have more holes to fill than what we needed when McD CAME to Denver.

Like you said...its been only ONE year.. 1... a SINGLE season... and it absolutely AMAZES me that amount of offensive talent this coach has removed from this franchise. To NOT get worked up over watching the exodus of high caliber players, after a coach has only been in seat for a single season..... is ridiculous.

As I said. The trading of the players isn't/wasn't a concern purely for the season NOW...but its the seasons in the future that are going to continue to suffer. We took EVERYTHING that we had to build AROUND, and ADD too, and removed purely for the "glorification of McDs massive ego" (sorry, took that line from George Castanza when he was talking to Steinbrenner). Although thats a stolen line from Seinfeld, I absolutely think it applies here.

[Elevation inc]

wait i thought we were talking the nucleous of the offense...which mcd destroyed without replacing with equal talent

your putting the losses of games like the 51 points the bolts put on us, to them? and not the defense!!!

look i dont care what camp your in....to put the losses in 08..o7 on anything but the defense is utterly friggen ridiculous..and shows a huge error in your or anyones football IQ

right becasue cutler didnt make horrible decisions, marshall didnt drop balls.....etc...i know damn well the defense played a part...problem is you fail to see the offense contributed as well.....

[arapaho2]

What would you have thought if McDaniels suspended Marshall and Shef and did not give provide an explanation.


he should have never suspended them at all...there was no need to publicly leak why TS was benched whether justified or not..none..nothing to gain from it was there...he could have just been not active

as for marshall again if it was a fact of he knew he wasnt gonna keep him ..then dont hurt the sale by lableing hm and throwing him under the bus...game time decision was all it needed to be...

neither had to be a suspention..they still could have been gone at the end of the season...but without all the unwarrented negative publicity

[Elevation inc]

But North.... when McD is no longer here, the Broncos are STILL my football team. So saying its "ok, because thats how HE wants it" I understand, but absolutely do NOT agree with. If it wasn't "out of the ordinary" or "odd" that a coach would come in and trade away a young pro-bowl QB, it wouldn't have been such big news. If it wasn't a big deal that McD then couldn't get along with his pro-bowl WR, it wouldn't be big news. Lots of franchises have won Championships by keeping their best talent. Odd.

My point is simple. If/when he fails... we are STILL void of the talent HE traded away. When he's gone, he might find a OC job somewhere else, but My team.. the Broncos... are STILL left with the mess I feel he has created by removing the most dynamic talent this team has had...(and certainly the most sound nucleus of offensive talent). That just means that the NEXT regime.... is going to have more holes to fill than what we needed when McD CAME to Denver.

Like you said...its been only ONE year.. 1... a SINGLE season... and it absolutely AMAZES me that amount of offensive talent this coach has removed from this franchise. To NOT get worked up over watching the exodus of high caliber players, after a coach has only been in seat for a single season..... is ridiculous.

As I said. The trading of the players isn't/wasn't a concern purely for the season NOW...but its the seasons in the future that are going to continue to suffer. We took EVERYTHING that we had to build AROUND, and ADD too, and removed purely for the "glorification of McDs massive ego" (sorry, took that line from George Castanza when he was talking to Steinbrenner). Although thats a stolen line from Seinfeld, I absolutely think it applies here.



rav i think most of us arent upset you dont like him or disagree with him...im actually fine you dont makes for good debate dont ya think????. I personally am upset that every thing that happens now is supposedly his fault no matter what, when, thats just not the case.....does he have faults yes...but you guys are trying to take any responsibility from the players and put it all on him when thats just not right......these are not flawless character players we are talking about here....

i liked both jay and marshall and miss them or will miss them both but tony and hillis....lets be real here...you guys are making glorified rotaional role players out to be gods then knocking better rotaional players like gaffney, who contributed more last year then hillis and sheff combined....again its not MCD faults hillis couldnt do his job and sheff couldnt either...

[Lancane]

first denver certainly didnt win in year 1 and shanny had john elway...im sorry john elway....cutler is not......


i brought up indy and pitt and new england because there system has been in place for years...thats the point....the talent was there for them after years of the same system not 1, same philosophy...shanny wasnt working we are trying something new....you all dont like the change and are just jumping the gun....its year 1 for christs sake.....he is reloading the team for a push at the playoffs something we almost achieved last year anyway with a insane schedule...with all the new unproven guys who happen to still be here minus 1major contributor and 2 minor ones....

teams win championships....you cant say the same for marshall, cutler, sheff or hillis....


and im a physic genius...my powers dont ever wan.....im the italion stallion for christs sake:lol:

I also forgot to mention Switzer's Cowboys, Harbaugh's Ravens, Seifart's 49ers and Turner's Chargers.

And he's not reloading the team, he's forcing it to be rebuilt. Even his former mentors 'Saban, Weis and Belichick' wouldn't have tried something so detrimental and one that could cost him dearly. Who in the hell will hire the idiot who destroyed the foundation of a football team? It will take years for him to get back the respect he's lost, unless he pulls this off and actually shows that he's a genius. The chances are stacked against him and most professionals would tell you as much.

Quit watching Psyched and the Rocky Movies...their obviously detrimental to one's mental health!

:lol:

[silkamilkamonico]

so your saying being down to your last of 7 rbs....and watching the defense allow six consecutive scores is all on the offense
:confused:

so what about the miami game troubles you ...one game?...you cant look at the 28 points per season in 08..no? one game label?

was it cutlers ints..one brought back for a score?...let me remind you of the last game in 09

First drive = Cutler throws an interception. Defense holds to a 3 and out. FG Miami.

Second drive = Cutler 3 and out.

Third drive = Cutler Interception for TD.


Don't make excuses for Cutler turning the ball over and single handily losing that game by giving the other team's offense 10 points, (which proved to be the difference in that game), before he even got a first down.

If Cutler doesn't screw his own team with his early play that game, Denver wins that game, and makes the playoffs.

Nice spin job to somehow blame Cutler's inept play on the RB injuries, and then go on to blame the defense for it.

Laughable. :laugh:

[Elevation inc]

he should have never suspended them at all...there was no need to publicly leak why TS was benched whether justified or not..none..nothing to gain from it was there...he could have just been not active

as for marshall again if it was a fact of he knew he wasnt gonna keep him ..then dont hurt the sale by lableing hm and throwing him under the bus...game time decision was all it needed to be...

neither had to be a suspention..they still could have been gone at the end of the season...but without all the unwarrented negative publicity


right why we would we wanna suspend players who dont wanna help us get to the playoffs for the first time since 2005...becasue of there attitude....and poor judgement...you would have to be crazy to do that...i mean who wants good examples of team in there locker room...

[turftoad]

LOL jamal williams is far and away better than fields and dewayne robertson combined....even at his current age...bannan is a very good 3-4 DL player more so than anyone we have or had at DE in the last few years....green is the same way...if you cant see that your blind...the last time we had even a competent DL before last year was the 2005 season before it blew up in our faces...


brandon lloyd has always been a immature talent, but the immaturity is now gone and im positive he will do better for us than keary colbert or darrell jackson.....should i keep going here


brady quinn is better than chris simms...upgrade...phonzy is better than jack willaims..upgrade..kyle orton/le kevin smith is....well :lol:...i take the fifth...lol

the point is our FA pick-ups have come along way since niko, dewayne, sam adam, kennedy, travis henry...etc....

I guess we'll see wont we.

[silkamilkamonico]

right why we would we wanna suspend players who dont wanna help us get to the playoffs for the first time since 2005...becasue of there attitude....and poor judgement...you would have to be crazy to do that...i mean who wants good examples of team in there locker room...

Schefller is a "premeir player". When it comes to Tony Scheffler, who cares what scrubs like Brian Dawkins and Champ Bailey think. We're talking about Tony Scheffler here.

[turftoad]

lol.......i do concur orton isnt a replacement for cutler...so i guess we share commomn ground there:lol:...but i belive sheff, marshall and hillis to be easily replacable.....sorry thats just how it is in my eyes....

Marshall, arguably a top 5 WR is going to be easy to replace?? I don't think so. :tsk:

[Elevation inc]

Marshall, arguably a top 5 WR is going to be easy to replace?? I don't think so. :tsk:

i belive you will be suprised....remeber im a physic :lol:

[Elevation inc]

Schefller is a "premeir player". When it comes to Tony Scheffler, who cares what scrubs like Brian Dawkins and Champ Bailey think. We're talking about Tony Scheffler here.

apparently:lol:

[Elevation inc]

I guess we'll see wont we.

your right we will......im also sure some of you will be suprised at who swicthes to the darkside come year 2 if we suck....many of us have open minds for next year but dont think some of us wont chnage our minds if we suck.....i am pretty sure if we suck next year, i will be one to start questioning in a big way WTF is going on in dove valley. and how much physic power i really have:lol:

[TXBRONC]

i belive you will be suprised....remeber im a physic :lol:

That or you need drug rehab. :D

[Elevation inc]

Honestly, it about evens out. Orton is average, Delhomme is average and the Rams will start a rookie next year. Clevelands WRs aren't any better than ours but they definitely aren't much worse (especially if you add in Josh Cribbs) and both teams have a better running game than we do.


Can you name 5 offenses in the league with less talent than us right now? I'm really having a hard time finding that many...




yea i can

St louis
KC
OAk
Seattle
Clevland


sorry but orton trumps all those teams and i aint even a fan of his....

[Elevation inc]

That or you need drug rehab. :D

meh denial suits me.....physic it is....;)

[silkamilkamonico]

yea i can

St louis
KC
OAk
Seattle
Clevland


sorry but orton trumps all those teams and i aint even a fan of his....

Can I add to that list?

Buffalo
Tampa Bay
San Fransisco
Jacksonville
Arizona

[Elevation inc]

Can I add to that list?

Buffalo
Tampa Bay
San Fransisco
Jacksonville
Arizona

oh snap.......

i forgot how epic matt leinart and david garrad are...oh and that alex smith.....wowzers.....who is the QB in buffalo again....:lol:

[arapaho2]

right becasue cutler didnt make horrible decisions, marshall didnt drop balls.....etc...i know damn well the defense played a part...problem is you fail to see the offense contributed as well.....


ok that was a offense with what a string of 6 rbs on IR...a rookie LT a 2nd year RT and RG..a rookie #2wr

and a defense allowing 28 points per game on the season

in fact one of the absalute worst defenses ever seen ....a defense that would have undoubtadly been the worst defense in 08 by a mile if not for the offense keeping them off the field so much

a defense 31st in Tos..29th in scoreing..31st in sacks..28th in rush defense..26th in pass defense

and you counter with...the miami game as proof the nucleous of the offense sucked:coffee:

hey nice try

[Elevation inc]

ok that was a offense with what a string of 6 rbs on IR...a rookie LT a 2nd year RT and RG..a rookie #2wr

and a defense allowing 28 points per game on the season

in fact one of the absalute worst defenses ever seen ....a defense that would have undoubtadly been the worst defense in 08 by a mile if not for the offense keeping them off the field so much

a defense 31st in Tos..29th in scoreing..31st in sacks..28th in rush defense..26th in pass defense

and you counter with...the miami game as proof the nucleous of the offense sucked:coffee:

hey nice try


hey hero when you quote make sure when your final point is finished... i actually stated what you make it out to be said by me...never said anything by countering about miami.....

i said the offense contributed to our lack of success if you cant see that i cant help ya...

[arapaho2]

right why we would we wanna suspend players who dont wanna help us get to the playoffs for the first time since 2005...becasue of there attitude....and poor judgement...you would have to be crazy to do that...i mean who wants good examples of team in there locker room...


gee TS was complaining about the offense...a inept dink and dunk stupid transparent offense that was easily chewed up ......so i guess he did it cause he liked the 2-8 finish we were working on..right?

he said something cause he was frustrated...this offense finally had a defense helping out..only to continue to flounder and be inept ...id be frustrated to

dont act like it wasnt in every single pre game report each and every week...the broncos offense needs to open it up ...the broncos offense needs to go deep, make the defense stay honest, utilize the whole field

yeah marshall didnt wanna help the team..wasnt a team guy...that was evident when he played all of 08 with a potential career ending injury..or the fact he busted his ass week in and week out getting another 100+ rec and 1000yards

[arapaho2]

hey hero when you quote make sure when your final point is finished... i actually stated what you make it out to be said by me...never said anything by countering about miami.....

i said the offense contributed to our lack of success if you cant see that i cant help ya...


just as orton and mcd contributed to this years lack of success right?

[Elevation inc]

just as orton and mcd contributed to this years lack of success right?

dont lump me in that boat...i fully agree MCd left alot to be desired as a offensive playcaller...and orton in my book isnt denvers long term future.....but i also belive both did perform better than expected given all the new players staff, and complex system

[slim]

I think I will go to subway for lunch.

[roomemp]

ok that was a offense with what a string of 6 rbs on IR...a rookie LT a 2nd year RT and RG..a rookie #2wr

and a defense allowing 28 points per game on the season

in fact one of the absalute worst defenses ever seen ....a defense that would have undoubtadly been the worst defense in 08 by a mile if not for the offense keeping them off the field so much

a defense 31st in Tos..29th in scoreing..31st in sacks..28th in rush defense..26th in pass defense

and you counter with...the miami game as proof the nucleous of the offense sucked:coffee:

hey nice try

Our offense was pretty unreliable in the red zone......You know....The place where you score points.

I am not making any excuses for that defense....I think we all know how bad they were (I hope at least) but our offense was not as good as the stats might suggest.

[Ravage!!!]

Less TALENT...(skill positions... )

Denver= Moreno, Royal, Gaffney (?)
St louis= Jackson , Donnie Avery, Randy McMicheal
KC = Charles, Bowe, Chambers
OAk= McFadden, Bush, Miller, Darrius Heyward-Bey (can't tell me Moreno was just a rookie, then not count Heyward-Bey as potential talent for the Raiders)
Seattle= Hasselbeck, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Nate Burleson, John Carlson
Clevland= Jerome Harrison, Josh Cribbs,

Buffalo= Fred Jackson
Tampa Bay= Kellen Winslow Jr.
San Fransisco= Frank Gore, Josh Morgan, Vernon Davis, Michael Crabtree
Jacksonville= Maurice Jones-Drew, Mike Sims-Walker
Arizona :confused: = Fitzgerald, Beanie Wells, Tim Hightower, Steve Breaston



Seems when asked for teams with LESS talent.... there isn't that many. How many on this list REALLY have less talent on offense than we do?

[silkamilkamonico]

Our offense was pretty unreliable in the red zone......You know....The place where you score points.

I am not making any excuses for that defense....I think we all know how bad they were (I hope at least) but our offense was not as good as the stats might suggest.

Oh c'mon now! That was the running game's fault, not Jay "someday I'll throw this football threw the defender's chest in the redzone" Cutler.

[silkamilkamonico]

Less TALENT...(skill positions... )

Denver= Moreno, Royal, Gaffney (?)
St louis= Jackson , Donnie Avery, Randy McMicheal
KC = Charles, Bowe, Chambers
OAk= McFadden, Bush, Miller, Darrius Heyward-Bey (can't tell me Moreno was just a rookie, then not count Heyward-Bey as potential talent for the Raiders)
Seattle= Hasselbeck, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Nate Burleson, John Carlson
Clevland= Jerome Harrison, Josh Cribbs,

Buffalo= Fred Jackson
Tampa Bay= Kellen Winslow Jr.
San Fransisco= Frank Gore, Josh Morgan, Vernon Davis, Michael Crabtree
Jacksonville= Maurice Jones-Drew, Mike Sims-Walker
Arizona :confused: = Fitzgerald, Beanie Wells, Tim Hightower, Steve Breaston



Seems when asked for teams with LESS talent.... there isn't that many.



I don't understand. Are the players you listed "better", or "worse", or "talent"?

Half of those guys aren't even "talents". Are you also considering the oline, in which Denver is virtually stronger than all of them as a collective unit?

Josh Cribbs? He's a specioal teams machine. That's like saying KC had a great WR core because they had Dante Hall.

[Elevation inc]

Less TALENT...(skill positions... )

Denver= Moreno, Royal, Gaffney (?)
St louis= Jackson , Donnie Avery, Randy McMicheal
KC = Charles, Bowe, Chambers OAk= McFadden, Bush, Miller, Darrius Heyward-Bey (can't tell me Moreno was just a rookie, then not count Heyward-Bey as potential talent for the Raiders)
Seattle= Hasselbeck, T.J. Houshmandzadeh, Nate Burleson, John Carlson
Clevland= Jerome Harrison, Josh Cribbs,

Buffalo= Fred Jackson
Tampa Bay= Kellen Winslow Jr.
San Fransisco= Frank Gore, Josh Morgan, Vernon Davis, Michael Crabtree
Jacksonville= Maurice Jones-Drew, Mike Sims-Walker
Arizona :confused: = Fitzgerald, Beanie Wells, Tim Hightower, Steve Breaston



Seems when asked for teams with LESS talent.... there isn't that many. How many on this list REALLY have less talent on offense than we do?



wow bro i stopped reading when you compared knowshons rookie year to heyward bey.....

[Elevation inc]

I don't understand. Are the players you listed "better", or "worse", or "talent"?

Half of those guys aren't even "talents". Are you also considering the oline, in which Denver is virtually stronger than all of them as a collective unit?

Josh Cribbs? He's a specioal teams machine. That's like saying KC had a great WR core because they had Dante Hall.



:lol: nice.....

[arapaho2]

dont lump me in that boat...i fully agree MCd left alot to be desired as a offensive playcaller...and orton in my book isnt denvers long term future.....but i also belive both did perform better than expected given all the new players staff, and complex system


yea short passes and bubble screens are so complex...complex to me would be something hard to figure out...as in...the dfense tried to get the upper hand on the offense but the complexity of it prevented that

since week 8 we had teams basically predicting exactly what we were gonna do..not complex at all

[arapaho2]

Our offense was pretty unreliable in the red zone......You know....The place where you score points.

I am not making any excuses for that defense....I think we all know how bad they were (I hope at least) but our offense was not as good as the stats might suggest.


how much did mcd improve the redzone offense in 09 from the 08 team?

[Elevation inc]

yea short passes and bubble screens are so complex...complex to me would be something hard to figure out...as in...the dfense tried to get the upper hand on the offense but the complexity of it prevented that

since week 8 we had teams basically predicting exactly what we were gonna do..not complex at all



im done arguing with you i tried to meet ya on middle ground and now you just keep going crazy....enjoy it....all you see is everything is MCD fault...fair enough your entitled....

[arapaho2]

First drive = Cutler throws an interception. Defense holds to a 3 and out. FG Miami.

Second drive = Cutler 3 and out.

Third drive = Cutler Interception for TD.


Don't make excuses for Cutler turning the ball over and single handily losing that game by giving the other team's offense 10 points, (which proved to be the difference in that game), before he even got a first down.

If Cutler doesn't screw his own team with his early play that game, Denver wins that game, and makes the playoffs.

Nice spin job to somehow blame Cutler's inept play on the RB injuries, and then go on to blame the defense for it.

Laughable. :laugh:

whats laughable is how one game was the season...great then we all know orton is a supreme suckfest right..i mean after his 2 ints for sscores

we are doomed with such a horrible horrible qb

[Ravage!!!]

I don't understand. Are the players you listed "better", or "worse", or "talent"?

Half of those guys aren't even "talents". Are you also considering the oline, in which Denver is virtually stronger than all of them as a collective unit?

Josh Cribbs? He's a specioal teams machine. That's like saying KC had a great WR core because they had Dante Hall.

FIrst... all I've heard is how our OL sucks. How it was the worst part of our team last year. Now I'm supposed to count that as talent? Ok, but I'm honestly not going to go back and list the good individual OL from each team. You can if you want to. But I do recognize that we have Clady. Just as I know the Browns have Joe Thomas.. the Chiefs have Brian Waters...the Jags have Vince Manuwai...blah blah blah

But what player, on the Chiefs as example, is WORSE than what we have at our respectable positions? Charles is better than our RB, and both the WRs I mentioned are better than anything we have on the roster.

Do we have anything on our roster, that is as GOOD as Cribbs is at his job? No? Considering Cribbs was used as a WR, and used as a RB in the Wildcat... he was a 1st team pro-bowl, and first team All-pro. Do we have ANYONE on the offensive roster that is as good as he is? **Please note, that Cleveland is one of the few teams that I agree has less talent than we do.

The question was to compare TALENT... not team records. These teams have just as much 'talent' as the Broncos do (right now)... and realize that I counted Denver's Moreno whom hasn't even proved that he can be considered one that should make the list. Even Royal, had a terrible second season, and Gaffney was purely listed because I figured 'someone' would complain if he wasn't.

Other than that, all these teams have absolutely have comparable talent, if not MORE talent, on their offense than what we currently have.

[Ziggy]

http://www.marklangenfeld.com/postimgs/BBR/subway_meal_wide.jpg

[arapaho2]

im done arguing with you i tried to meet ya on middle ground and now you just keep going crazy....enjoy it....all you see is everything is MCD fault...fair enough your entitled....


hit a nerve???

all i said was i disagree that mcds offense is so complicated...i mean if you think it is so be it...i just fail to see how...run up the gut..shotgun pass for 2 yards...bubble screen is ...so dam complex

if anything it was the offensive definition of predictability

[Ravage!!!]

wow bro i stopped reading when you compared knowshons rookie year to heyward bey.....

Wow.. bro...then take both off the list. Until Moreno actually shows something, I don't really know if he IS a talent. Just as I don't know anything about Bey. So stop reading all you want.... seems most have closed their eyes to whats happened to the talent on this team, anyway.

[silkamilkamonico]

whats laughable is how one game was the season...great then we all know orton is a supreme suckfest right..i mean after his 2 ints for sscores

we are doomed with such a horrible horrible qb

At least you're acknowledging it. Congratulations. And Orton isn't a "suckfest". He's an average QB talent, and hopefully not our future. I'm beginning to think you base your opinion on subjective biasedness, and not objective happening.

[slim]

http://www.marklangenfeld.com/postimgs/BBR/subway_meal_wide.jpg

I got the Italian BMT with extra pepperoni.

It is pretty good.

[Buff]

I went to the Subway across the street about 45 minutes ago and there was a line out the door. I'm going to try it again.

[Lonestar]

OK everyone from both sides need to report the corpsman for your rabies shots.

Some may even ask for malaria and distemper, while your there.

Time to take a deep breath and realize we are all Bronco fans . :salute:

[Elevation inc]

Wow.. bro...then take both off the list. Until Moreno actually shows something, I don't really know if he IS a talent. Just as I don't know anything about Bey. So stop reading all you want.... seems most have closed their eyes to whats happened to the talent on this team, anyway.

no bro you had some valid points like arizona for example...but heyward bey....knowshon was a hundred times better...he needs to improve yes...but im sorry the kid rushed for nearly 1000 yds...thats more than benson, rashard mendehall, j stewart, deangelo williams there first years for example...im sure you wouldnt mind any of them on the team......

[topscribe]

At least you're acknowledging it. Congratulations. And Orton isn't a "suckfest". He's an average QB talent, and hopefully not our future. I'm beginning to think you base your opinion on subjective biasedness, and not objective happening.

Hopefully, Orton is our future.

Or hopefully, Quinn is our future.

Or hopefully, Brandstater is our future.

Or hopefully, we get somebody else in who can be our future.

I don't care what the name on the back of the jersey is. If he is good enough to
be our future, that is good enough for me . . .

-----

[Buff]

OK everyone from both sides need to report the corpsman for your rabies shots.

Some may even ask for malaria and distemper, while your there.

Time to take a deep breath and realize we are all Bronco fans . :salute:

And most of us like Subway. Something else to keep in mind.

[slim]

Waiting in line for food sucks.

[slim]

And most of us like Subway. Something else to keep in mind.

Do you like Mayo? Mustard? Oil and Vinegar?

I can never decide.

[Elevation inc]

hit a nerve???

all i said was i disagree that mcds offense is so complicated...i mean if you think it is so be it...i just fail to see how...run up the gut..shotgun pass for 2 yards...bubble screen is ...so dam complex

if anything it was the offensive definition of predictability


you wish you hit a nerve i just stop arguing when isee the other person is blind....at least rav, claymore, cane can be constructive at times and get there point across and have good points... i have yet to see that from you......

and a big reason our offense was so basic last year, was becasue of our OL.....if you cant understand that then sorry.....

[topscribe]

And most of us like Subway. Something else to keep in mind.

I like Quizno's. Are we going to argue again?

-----

[silkamilkamonico]

FIrst... all I've heard is how our OL sucks. How it was the worst part of our team last year. Now I'm supposed to count that as talent? Ok, but I'm honestly not going to go back and list the good individual OL from each team. You can if you want to. But I do recognize that we have Clady. Just as I know the Browns have Joe Thomas.. the Chiefs have Brian Waters...the Jags have Vince Manuwai...blah blah blah

But what player, on the Chiefs as example, is WORSE than what we have at our respectable positions? Charles is better than our RB, and both the WRs I mentioned are better than anything we have on the roster.

Do we have anything on our roster, that is as GOOD as Cribbs is at his job? No? Considering Cribbs was used as a WR, and used as a RB in the Wildcat... he was a 1st team pro-bowl, and first team All-pro. Do we have ANYONE on the offensive roster that is as good as he is? **Please note, that Cleveland is one of the few teams that I agree has less talent than we do.

The question was to compare TALENT... not team records. These teams have just as much 'talent' as the Broncos do (right now)... and realize that I counted Denver's Moreno whom hasn't even proved that he can be considered one that should make the list. Even Royal, had a terrible second season, and Gaffney was purely listed because I figured 'someone' would complain if he wasn't.

Other than that, all these teams have absolutely have comparable talent, if not MORE talent, on their offense than what we currently have.

Our oline sucks because of injuries. How many other NFL teams have olines that go from adequate to suckage after an injury or 2? All of them? The loss of Ryan Harris clearly states that.

KC? We have a better WR core, we have a better QB(that isn't saying much), and we have a better oline. We have a better TE.

I completely disagree about the players you mentioned, you list guys like Donnie Avery (but not Stokely, you can then take the ? away from Gaffney, who are both better), you list McMichael (but not Graham, who is better), Bowie is going down the drain like Royal, and Chambers simply sucks. Oak, you list Heyward Bey but not Stokely or Correll Buckhalter, Jerome Harrison but not the guys I've listed for Denver, Josh Cribbs is a terrible offensive player, Josh Morgan, Tim Hightower, etc...

You listed guys just to list guys it seems, while ignoring some guys from Denver (Buckhalter, Orton, Graham, Stokley) who any objective NFL fan is going to place in terms of skill/production with the guys you listed.

[Ziggy]

I get the onions, green peppers and extra lettuce. Not a big fan of the vinager and oil though.

[slim]

I like Quizno's. Are we going to argue again?

-----

I like the turkey, bacon, guac...yummy.

[roomemp]

how much did mcd improve the redzone offense in 09 from the 08 team?

Not too much. Because he was working with virtually the same players left over from 08.......

[Ravage!!!]

no bro you had some valid points like arizona for example...but heyward bey....knowshon was a hundred times better...he needs to improve yes...but im sorry the kid rushed for nearly 1000 yds...thats more than benson, rashard mendehall, j stewart, deangelo williams there first years for example...im sure you wouldnt mind any of them on the team......

I DO acknowledge that Moreno showed more, but... we also blamed the lack of long runs and TDs on our OL. Bey had a terrible QB throwing to him. Both were rookies. I'm not a fan of Bey's by any means, but I was thoroughly disapointed in Moreno last season. He didn't show many ANYTHING to get excited about.

Point being, if we are going to make excuses for Moreno (and he needed excuses).. then we can't simply "ignore" that Bey has talent purely based on rookies numbers, right? THats only fair. I should have listed the rookie talent on the other teams as well. Just because Moreno got more opportunity than others, doesn't make him better. Not until I see something, anything, that makes me believe. I haven't seen it yet. So I listed him on OUR team list, because I was didn't have ANY names to list!

[Elevation inc]

I DO acknowledge that Moreno showed more, but... we also blamed the lack of long runs and TDs on our OL. Bey had a terrible QB throwing to him. Both were rookies. I'm not a fan of Bey's by any means, but I was thoroughly disapointed in Moreno last season. He didn't show many ANYTHING to get excited about.

Point being, if we are going to make excuses for Moreno (and he needed excuses).. then we can't simply "ignore" that Bey has talent purely based on rookies numbers, right? THats only fair. I should have listed the rookie talent on the other teams as well. Just because Moreno got more opportunity than others, doesn't make him better. Not until I see something, anything, that makes me believe. I haven't seen it yet. So I listed him on OUR team list, because I was didn't have ANY names to list!


sorry but bey failed becasue of his route running, lack of ability to seperate and poor hands...louis murphy a 4th rd pick had the same QB BTW.....and outperformed bey....


and i belive bey to be a bust coming out of college.....i dont consider hi ma talent at all...and last year proved that...louis murphy owned him and was taken 3 rds later...

[roomemp]

I DO acknowledge that Moreno showed more, but... we also blamed the lack of long runs and TDs on our OL. Bey had a terrible QB throwing to him. Both were rookies. I'm not a fan of Bey's by any means, but I was thoroughly disapointed in Moreno last season. He didn't show many ANYTHING to get excited about.

Point being, if we are going to make excuses for Moreno (and he needed excuses).. then we can't simply "ignore" that Bey has talent purely based on rookies numbers, right? THats only fair. I should have listed the rookie talent on the other teams as well. Just because Moreno got more opportunity than others, doesn't make him better. Not until I see something, anything, that makes me believe. I haven't seen it yet. So I listed him on OUR team list, because I was didn't have ANY names to list!

A lot of people suggested the same point regarding Hillis but it didn't stop the die hard "McDaniel hatters" from calling him the anti christ

[arapaho2]

At least you're acknowledging it. Congratulations. And Orton isn't a "suckfest". He's an average QB talent, and hopefully not our future. I'm beginning to think you base your opinion on subjective biasedness, and not objective happening.


i base what i say on what i see...having watched every single bronco game for the past ten season...being a fan for almost 40 years

and what i seen was we had the makings of a superb offensive team..a team any offensive minded coach would have loved to coach
a young franchise qb..a young probowl wr..a great line...solid rb, great up an coming #2wr ..solid pass catching TE,

all we needed was a tweek here an there..a center...a LG...possibly a running back

but what we desparetly needed was a defense...defensive line...defense to make us a complete team

suddenly before we have played one game in his second year as HC we have bled all that that young offensive talent..and replaced it with whom?...sure we shored up the defense..until when, they arent exactly spring chickens..we need thier replacments now...yet we find ourselfs needing offensive talent in a bad way also

sure theres some homers that blindly think we can win with nothing but loyal josh guys...myself i think you also need talent, something we severely lack on offense

[Ravage!!!]

Our oline sucks because of injuries. How many other NFL teams have olines that go from adequate to suckage after an injury or 2? All of them? The loss of Ryan Harris clearly states that.
Ok... but can you tell me all these other teams didn't have injuries that hurt them?


KC? We have a better WR core, we have a better QB(that isn't saying much), and we have a better oline. We have a better TE.
We don't have a better WR corp, silk, not any more.


I completely disagree about the players you mentioned, you list guys like Donnie Avery (but not Stokely, you can then take the ? away from Gaffney, who are both better), you list McMichael (but not Graham, who is better), Bowie is going down the drain like Royal, and Chambers simply sucks. Oak, you list Heyward Bey but not Stokely or Correll Buckhalter, Jerome Harrison but not the guys I've listed for Denver, Josh Cribbs is a terrible offensive player, Josh Morgan, Tim Hightower, etc...
Well, we obviously ahve some differences in what we think of talent. I did leave out Stokely unintentionally. Main reason being, I was thinking in my head about younger talent. Stokely and Buck... are at the very end of their careers. Honesly... I don't think Stokely is on the team when we play our first game. Just a guess, a hunch, but that may be why in my head I didn't think of him.

You are also right on the Graham and McMicheals... Graham has been used as such a blocker, and only 1 TD that I honestly forgot about him. I shouldn't list him nor McMicheals... but again. St Louis is a team I agree with you oesn't have as much talent as the Broncos... IF we include Moreno (I'm still not sold on him).

Bey was listed as the point I made to Inc. I don't really think much of Bey at all.... but as of right now, I haven't been impressed with Moreno whatsoever. So although Moreno was given more opportunity to succeed, doesn't really make him a better 'talent'...as of yet.

Cribbs is abssolutely BETTER than any offensive player we have. That is why the Browns did everything they could to get the ball in his hands as much as possible. Playing him at WR and as RB. Think what you want, but Cribbs is a better player than anyone we have on our current offensive side of the ball.

Tim Hightower..again.. proved to be MUCH better than any RB we have currently... and Jerome Harrison...ABSOLUTELY showed much more than any talent we have on the roster.



You listed guys just to list guys it seems, while ignoring some guys from Denver (Buckhalter, Orton, Graham, Stokley) who any objective NFL fan is going to place in terms of skill/production with the guys you listed.

I'll just say this. We obviously have some different opinions on the talent listed or not listed. However... no matter what...we are trying to compare the Broncos offensive talent to the worst offensive talent teams in the NFL, and actually able to have a debate as to which team is more void of talent. Even if we change a player here and there, are we really THAT much better than any teams on the list? WHen you think about it, if (its an if for sure) Moreno doesn't show something this season...then our list is really looking weak.

[Ravage!!!]

A lot of people suggested the same point regarding Hillis but it didn't stop the die hard "McDaniel hatters" from calling him the anti christ

I'll disagree with you wholeheartedly. Hillis ABSOLUTELY showed somthing to get excited about when he was playing under Shanahan. Whether it was the swing pass out that he was catching over his shoulder, the bashing through the LoS at 255 lbs, watching him leap over a potential tackler, or out jump and reach OVER a defender to make an outstanding catch. He gave us a few "wow" moments before getting INjured that Moreno hasn't given. Moreno didn't give us a SINGLE 'wow' moment.. and he had a LOT more opportunities than Hillis did to do it.

[Elevation inc]

i base what i say on what i see...having watched every single bronco game for the past ten season...being a fan for almost 40 years

and what i seen was we had the makings of a superb offensive team..a team any offensive minded coach would have loved to coach
a young franchise qb..a young probowl wr..a great line...solid rb, great up an coming #2wr ..solid pass catching TE,

all we needed was a tweek here an there..a center...a LG...possibly a running back

but what we desparetly needed was a defense...defensive line...defense to make us a complete team

suddenly before we have played one game in his second year as HC we have bled all that that young offensive talent..and replaced it with whom?...sure we shored up the defense..until when, they arent exactly spring chickens..we need thier replacments now...yet we find ourselfs needing offensive talent in a bad way also

sure theres some homers that blindly think we can win with nothing but loyal josh guys...myself i think you also need talent, something we severely lack on offense

your right you do need talent.....but people are acting like the 4 players we lost are the only talent on the planet....

[arapaho2]

A lot of people suggested the same point regarding Hillis but it didn't stop the die hard "McDaniel hatters" from calling him the anti christ


because hillis actually showed something

he played in only 6 real games as a rookie...he had 68 carries..18 rec..averaged 5.0 on the ground and 12.8 ypr..and scored 6 tds

his play was the reason we were in some games ....

moreno was just there...he never made that...wow!! play that showed why he was picked...he never dominated a game

[Northman]

I'll disagree with you wholeheartedly. Hillis ABSOLUTELY showed somthing to get excited about when he was playing under Shanahan. Whether it was the swing pass out that he was catching over his shoulder, the bashing through the LoS at 255 lbs, watching him leap over a potential tackler, or out jump and reach OVER a defender to make an outstanding catch. He gave us a few "wow" moments before getting INjured that Moreno hasn't given. Moreno didn't give us a SINGLE 'wow' moment.. and he had a LOT more opportunities than Hillis did to do it.

You mean he showed something under a different system and blocking scheme?

[Ravage!!!]

sorry but bey failed becasue of his route running, lack of ability to seperate and poor hands...louis murphy a 4th rd pick had the same QB BTW.....and outperformed bey....


and i belive bey to be a bust coming out of college.....i dont consider hi ma talent at all...and last year proved that...louis murphy owned him and was taken 3 rds later...

I can name RBs in the NFL that out played Moreno that were taken in later rounds, as well. So the fact that Murphy out played him and was taken in the 4th, isn't much of anything as far as proof. Again, I'm not a Bey fan in the least. I thought he was one of the dumbest picks by any franchise I've seen.

[Ravage!!!]

You mean he showed something under a different system and blocking scheme?

Dude.. if you are going to say that the old system and blocking scheme gets more out of its players.... then I'll state again that this one needs to be changed.

Please... be realistic. Talent shows up. The "scheme" didn't make him leap over players, bowl over players, jump over and catch passes. Thats pure athletic ability that comes out during play. If you are going to ATTEMPT to used 'scheme' as some kind of 'reasoning for success' ...then you need to come up with better example.

[Ravage!!!]

your right you do need talent.....but people are acting like the 4 players we lost are the only talent on the planet....

No, Inc.... we are acknowledging that they were, By Far, the best talent on THIS TEAM. Thats all we care about.

[roomemp]

I can name RBs in the NFL that out played Moreno that were taken in later rounds, as well. So the fact that Murphy out played him and was taken in the 4th, isn't much of anything as far as proof. Again, I'm not a Bey fan in the least. I thought he was one of the dumbest picks by any franchise I've seen.

Could have fooled me....This is about the 3rd or 4th post where you are defending him

[Ravage!!!]

I can name RBs in the NFL that out played Moreno that were taken in later rounds, as well. So the fact that Murphy out played him and was taken in the 4th, isn't much of anything as far as proof. Again, I'm not a Bey fan in the least. I thought he was one of the dumbest picks by any franchise I've seen.

Could have fooled me....This is about the 3rd or 4th post where you are defending him

I guess you aren't a good reader... and don't know the difference between pointing things out and 'defending' them. So yeah.... I fooled you :coffee:

[arapaho2]

your right you do need talent.....but people are acting like the 4 players we lost are the only talent on the planet....


ok lets look
IMO
basic needs after 2008

dline...since we were a 4-3 specificaly DTs
safety..
young center to groom
rg
cb
MLB

now going into the 2010 season what do we need

qb
#1wr
center
rg
TE
FB
NT..jamall aint gonna last forever
ILB
safety
cb

you see the way i see it is instead of filling holes...we have been makeing more holes and instead of filling needed positions with young talent we are now going to fil more holes with lessor talent or need to draft for positions we didnt need to in the first place

[arapaho2]

Not too much. Because he was working with virtually the same players left over from 08.......

wrong it got worse:lol:

[slim]

Buff, did you get a sandwhich yet?

[Northman]

Im hungry too. I need some sammich to go with all the whine we got here.

[Buff]

Buff, did you get a sandwhich yet?

I did, thanks for asking.

Chicken teriyaki w/ pepperjack.

[roomemp]

wrong it got worse:lol:


Okay it got worse........WITH THE SAME PLAYERS FROM 08

[Northman]

I think the negative nancy's should take a couple of years off from football. Or at least from the forums. Its obvious they will never give this guy a chance to do his thing and we know they LOVE the former players who got traded so maybe they should just take a break. We get it, you hate McDaniels. Can you maybe leave the rest of us in peace for a couple of years while this guy does his thing? Im asking nicely. :)

[slim]

I gonna have to start drinking again.

I don't see any other way.

[Northman]

I gonna have to start drinking again.

I don't see any other way.

Way ahead of you brother. I have a feeling im just going to have to start putting a few on iggy for a couple of years. The shit is just beyond ridiculous at this point. :lol:

[arapaho2]

Okay it got worse........WITH THE SAME PLAYERS FROM 08


not the same players...you recall cutler

but reguardless ...getting worse...whats that tell you about the scheme of things

[slim]

Way ahead of you brother. I have a feeling im just going to have to start putting a few on iggy for a couple of years. The shit is just beyond ridiculous at this point. :lol:

Is there a limit to the number you can have on ignore?

[T.K.O.]

Where is Angelina Jolie when you need her! :shocked:

ummmm......i think she's at my house waiting for me to get home ....AGAIN !
sometimes she just won't leave:mad:

[Northman]

Is there a limit to the number you can have on ignore?
:lol:

I have no idea but im going to test it.

[Broncolingus]

Is there a limit to the number you can have on ignore?

I'm going to ignore that comment...:D

[Bosco]

First of all Jesus has nothing to do with your incompetence.

Second genius, if an RFA like Dumervil doesn't have a contract why is there concern that he we will HOLDOUT. If he doesn't have contract genius he can't HOLDOUT. :rolleyes:

Dude you are absolutely ******* clueless. You need to go grow a brain and then come back here and try talking football. Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick about this but your recent posts on this matter are the height of ignorance.

You cannot be a free agent and still be under contract. It's not possible. End of story.

The reason for the holdout concern is that those players are under a tender right now, but they don't have to sign it, just like with a franchise tag.


n o lets be honest and say that shit coulda easily been handled in house with out the " un intended slip of info:rolleyes:"...a coach ought to be big enough to recognized players are people and have emotions also..they can say some shit they dont mean in a moment of anger..a good coach does in fact take the high road and know this...he dont leak shit to the press to make himself look good...he doesnt throw players under the bus..thats childish and he was critisized ten times more for throwing his players like TS and marshall under the bus by former players than TS was ever critisized for his words

If you want to talk football with me, don't put your replies inside my quote. That's ******* annoying and I'm not going to spend the time parsing it all out.


really?...ok lets look even further...sure he led all rookies in rushing...he also carried the ball 71 more times than #2 beenie wells...but only had 154 more yards...project wells 4.5 ypa average to 71 more carries and you'd see he easily woulda beat out moreno

then the fact while having 71 less carries wells equaled morenos td number

then the 3rd place rookie played for philly...not a rbs dream city

So you agree that Moreno led NFL rookies in rushing? Great.


First drive = Cutler throws an interception. Defense holds to a 3 and out. FG Miami.

Second drive = Cutler 3 and out.

Third drive = Cutler Interception for TD.


Don't make excuses for Cutler turning the ball over and single handily losing that game by giving the other team's offense 10 points, (which proved to be the difference in that game), before he even got a first down.

If Cutler doesn't screw his own team with his early play that game, Denver wins that game, and makes the playoffs.

Nice spin job to somehow blame Cutler's inept play on the RB injuries, and then go on to blame the defense for it.

Laughable. :laugh: Exactly. People love to act like the 2008 defense was just screwing Cutler over at every turn, but there were several games that the defense provided at least average performance and Cutler failed to capitalize.

[LRtagger]

I'll disagree with you wholeheartedly. Hillis ABSOLUTELY showed somthing to get excited about when he was playing under Shanahan. Whether it was the swing pass out that he was catching over his shoulder, the bashing through the LoS at 255 lbs, watching him leap over a potential tackler, or out jump and reach OVER a defender to make an outstanding catch. He gave us a few "wow" moments before getting INjured that Moreno hasn't given. Moreno didn't give us a SINGLE 'wow' moment.. and he had a LOT more opportunities than Hillis did to do it.

I think you should watch this video. Seriously.

I'm not going to argue about whether Moreno showed more than Hillis. I'm tired of arguing with people on this site. People already have their allegiance to the departed players vs. the new players. But seriously, watch this tape and you will see plenty of flashes. You can be disappointed with his overall production. I personally thought he would do more, but the kid has the potential to be great. He just wasn't incredibly consistent last year. And he wore down towards the end of the season.

92owAaBGf_A

Just some things to look for:

the run at 1:30 against the Skins. He shows tremendous balance and awareness getting to the corner and leaping over a defender to pickup several more yards.

at 1:50 against the Chargers he shows incredible burst through the hole.

at 2:15, that run doesn't need much narrative. He turns a sure loss into a huge gain.

2:45 against the Pats. Again the hole is clogged at the line and he turns it into a big gain.

3:00 is the TD catch against Dallas. Still to this day don't know how he caught that ball.

Then there is the first run in this video against NYG which was his best game last year. I don't think you will see many backs in the league getting those yards in the clip below.

ZGfrJTO1gWo

I guess I can't argue if you think he didn't give enough 'wow' moments to justify his selection. But to say he had NONE is completely false.

[claymore]

Love Moreno.

[arapaho2]

Dude you are absolutely ******* clueless. You need to go grow a brain and then come back here and try talking football. Seriously, I'm not trying to be a dick about this but your recent posts on this matter are the height of ignorance.

You cannot be a free agent and still be under contract. It's not possible. End of story.

The reason for the holdout concern is that those players are under a tender right now, but they don't have to sign it, just like with a franchise tag.



If you want to talk football with me, don't put your replies inside my quote. That's ******* annoying and I'm not going to spend the time parsing it all out.



So you agree that Moreno led NFL rookies in rushing? Great.

Exactly. People love to act like the 2008 defense was just screwing Cutler over at every turn, but there were several games that the defense provided at least average performance and Cutler failed to capitalize.


you got multiple personalitys or something?....theres medicine for that you know

[Northman]

Alright, ive added some names that should of been there anyway but for those in this list, its nothing personal. I just need a break from all the constant negativity and doom and gloom. Its going to be a long year and i just want to be able to go on this forum and not deal with all the cliffjumpers. Once this next year has passed depending on what we did record wise i will take you off the list as i do respect and like all of you. Unfortuantely, i cant put Turf on because he is a mod But for now, its just good business. :D

broncofaninfla
Lancane
Ravage
Turftoad
Dogfish
Claymore
Horsepower 56

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2252/1862544845_cd72887c04.jpg

[slim]

I love LRtagger's avy.

[Northman]

I love LRtagger's avy.

She seems cold.

[claymore]

Alright, ive added some names that should of been there anyway but for those in this list, its nothing personal. I just need a break from all the constant negativity and doom and gloom. Its going to be a long year and i just want to be able to go on this forum and not deal with all the cliffjumpers. Once this next year has passed depending on what we did record wise i will take you off the list as i do respect and like all of you. Unfortuantely, i cant put Turf on because he is a mod But for now, its just good business. :D

broncofaninfla
Lancane
Ravage
Turftoad
Dogfish
Claymore
Horsepower 56

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2252/1862544845_cd72887c04.jpg

You puss.

[arapaho2]

Exactly. People love to act like the 2008 defense was just screwing Cutler over at every turn, but there were several games that the defense provided at least average performance and Cutler failed to capitalize.

2008 defense...
29th overall
30th in scoreing
31st in turnovers ints and ff
31st in sacks


2009 defense
7th overall
12th in scoring
10th in sacks
13th in ints
5th in FF

i love it how mcd and orton nuthuggers will blame the defense failing in the last few games as why we went 2-8...yet blame the offense in 2008

[slim]

North, I think I see a candidate for your iggy list.

[jhildebrand]

I will add that McD can get along with "elite" players. He's dealt with the Brady's, the Moss's, Champ, and Dawkins so anyone trying to claim otherwise is just not seeing the big picture.

He never dealt with those guys in the capacity of Head Coach. Furthermore, when he was the OC of New England Brady didn't speak or work with McDaniels for a large part of the season :lol:

[jhildebrand]

I have another comparison......People trying to sell their house but the problem is they want too much because they are tied to it emotionally. They disregard market value


heres another...if your gonna sell your home ...you dont make it public knoweledge your neighbors are the spawn of satan

Or you call me and I take care of it for you (shameless and selfish self plug) :lol:

[Lonestar]

I DO acknowledge that Moreno showed more, but... we also blamed the lack of long runs and TDs on our OL. Bey had a terrible QB throwing to him. Both were rookies. I'm not a fan of Bey's by any means, but I was thoroughly disapointed in Moreno last season. He didn't show many ANYTHING to get excited about.

Point being, if we are going to make excuses for Moreno (and he needed excuses).. then we can't simply "ignore" that Bey has talent purely based on rookies numbers, right? THats only fair. I should have listed the rookie talent on the other teams as well. Just because Moreno got more opportunity than others, doesn't make him better. Not until I see something, anything, that makes me believe. I haven't seen it yet. So I listed him on OUR team list, because I was didn't have ANY names to list!

I think Moreno will be a step faster getting to the hole and more decisive when he gets there. Which should improve him as well as IF we have some deacon blockers up front for him then he will not wear down so much later int eh season.. He certainly hit the rookie wall late in the year. I'm disappointed that Josh did not bring the Big guy in to share the load then.


I would have loved to see Hillis get some carries, I have no idea why he did not other than Moreno needing to be proved as a #1 pick. Josh hitched his saddle to him so that is the ONLY logical explanation I have for it.



As for talent it is all perceived IMHO if you notice that really good teams read Super bowl always have a bunch of Pro blow players on them but those same players the year before or later are not if they are not play off teams.

Same players same teams for the most part just not recognized as such.

I will always sing the praise of the LOS and controlling that will make a lot of players behind it much better. Whether they are or not. there are very few champions that do not start with lots of power and tangent on the LOS.

[Broncolingus]

Alright, ive added some names that should of been there anyway but for those in this list, its nothing personal. I just need a break from all the constant negativity and doom and gloom. Its going to be a long year and i just want to be able to go on this forum and not deal with all the cliffjumpers. Once this next year has passed depending on what we did record wise i will take you off the list as i do respect and like all of you. Unfortuantely, i cant put Turf on because he is a mod But for now, its just good business. :D

broncofaninfla
Lancane
Ravage
Turftoad
Dogfish
Claymore
Horsepower 56

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2252/1862544845_cd72887c04.jpg

Awww...

I NEVER get picked for anything!

http://photos.ivillage.com/images/photos/resize/pp_Baby%20Photo%20Gallery_1152305917514_431365D.jp g

[Lonestar]

He never dealt with those guys in the capacity of Head Coach. Furthermore, when he was the OC of New England Brady didn't speak or work with McDaniels for a large part of the season :lol:

You are kidding right?

If your OC is not setting in on all of the Offense meeting and designing games plans for the Offense to implement what are they doing.

I think you are seriously off base with this comment

[jhildebrand]

he should have never suspended them at all...there was no need to publicly leak why TS was benched whether justified or not..none..nothing to gain from it was there...he could have just been not active

as for marshall again if it was a fact of he knew he wasnt gonna keep him ..then dont hurt the sale by lableing hm and throwing him under the bus...game time decision was all it needed to be...

neither had to be a suspention..they still could have been gone at the end of the season...but without all the unwarrented negative publicity

Game time decision. The "player" said he was injured and didn't feel he could go. Use Marshall's ignorance and stupid tactic against him. Instead McDaniels monster ego got in the way. He had to send a message right then and there. He had to prove a point. He threw a player under the bus. Acted like a baby and not the 33 year old coach/gm of this team.

[Ravage!!!]

I think you should watch this video. Seriously.

I'm not going to argue about whether Moreno showed more than Hillis. I'm tired of arguing with people on this site. People already have their allegiance to the departed players vs. the new players. But seriously, watch this tape and you will see plenty of flashes. You can be disappointed with his overall production. I personally thought he would do more, but the kid has the potential to be great. He just wasn't incredibly consistent last year. And he wore down towards the end of the season.

92owAaBGf_A

Just some things to look for:

the run at 1:30 against the Skins. He shows tremendous balance and awareness getting to the corner and leaping over a defender to pickup several more yards.

at 1:50 against the Chargers he shows incredible burst through the hole.

at 2:15, that run doesn't need much narrative. He turns a sure loss into a huge gain.

2:45 against the Pats. Again the hole is clogged at the line and he turns it into a big gain.

3:00 is the TD catch against Dallas. Still to this day don't know how he caught that ball.

Then there is the first run in this video against NYG which was his best game last year. I don't think you will see many backs in the league getting those yards in the clip below.

ZGfrJTO1gWo

I guess I can't argue if you think he didn't give enough 'wow' moments to justify his selection. But to say he had NONE is completely false.


I've seen it. Still doesn't make me go ' THAT WAS THE REASON WE PICKED HIM IN THE FIRST ROUND'.... not one time. Any back is going to have a tiny moment...a stutter step, a fake, a stiff arm, something..... but I wanted to see SOMETHING that showed me why he was taken in the 1st round instead of going defense. I can make a highlight film of every back in the NFL, doesn't mean they are going to have a 'wow' moment. None of these made me go wow.

There are a number of draft-nics that I really respect on the boards, and many were high on him.... I wanted to see why. I didn't get that 'wow' moment at all. Couldn't break free, didn't make the spectacular TD... didn't make me think that we had "the" answer at RB. Not one time.....YET. I'm not calling him a bust, by any means. I just haven't seen him do something that makes me happier we picked him over one of the defensive studs we needed...... YET

[LRtagger]

Furthermore, when he was the OC of New England Brady didn't speak or work with McDaniels for a large part of the season :lol:

False.

[CoachChaz]

I've seen it. Still doesn't make me go ' THAT WAS THE REASON WE PICKED HIM IN THE FIRST ROUND'.... not one time. Any back is going to have a tiny moment...a stutter step, a fake, a stiff arm, something..... but I wanted to see SOMETHING that showed me why he was taken in the 1st round instead of going defense. I can make a highlight film of every back in the NFL, doesn't mean they are going to have a 'wow' moment. None of these made me go wow.

There are a number of draft-nics that I really respect on the boards, and many were high on him.... I wanted to see why. I didn't get that 'wow' moment at all. Couldn't break free, didn't make the spectacular TD... didn't make me think that we had "the" answer at RB. Not one time.....YET. I'm not calling him a bust, by any means. I just haven't seen him do something that makes me happier we picked him over one of the defensive studs we needed...... YET

Just my opinion, but I think your standards are set too high. Is it because Moreno is a "McDaniels guy"? Who knows. But while Moreno didnt turn in a spectacular rookie campaign...I just dont see how anyone can recall his play this past season or even watch the highlight reel and say that they didnt see ANYTHING to give them hope that he has the potential to be a special player. I dont know if you're waiting for a 250 yard game or a 5 TD game or something out of the Barry Sanders book of runs, but I have to say...he had plenty of singular moments last year that have me excited to see what he can do this year. Again...just my opinion

[claymore]

I've seen it. Still doesn't make me go ' THAT WAS THE REASON WE PICKED HIM IN THE FIRST ROUND'.... not one time. Any back is going to have a tiny moment...a stutter step, a fake, a stiff arm, something..... but I wanted to see SOMETHING that showed me why he was taken in the 1st round instead of going defense. I can make a highlight film of every back in the NFL, doesn't mean they are going to have a 'wow' moment. None of these made me go wow.

There are a number of draft-nics that I really respect on the boards, and many were high on him.... I wanted to see why. I didn't get that 'wow' moment at all. Couldn't break free, didn't make the spectacular TD... didn't make me think that we had "the" answer at RB. Not one time.....YET. I'm not calling him a bust, by any means. I just haven't seen him do something that makes me happier we picked him over one of the defensive studs we needed...... YET

I like Knowson alot more than alot of the previous #1's weve had. We had some real stinkers. He might not be the best one so far, but he damn sure isnt the worst. And he contributed a hell of alot more than Ayers.

Id rather have a draft success for a non percieved need than a draft flop for a definite need.

If that makes sense.

2009
1 Knowshon Moreno Georgia
1 Robert Ayers Tennessee

2008
1 Ryan Clady Boise State

2007
1 Jarvis Moss Florida

2006
1 Jay Cutler Vanderbilt

2004
1 D.J. Williams Miami (FL)

2003
1 George Foster Georgia

2002
1 Ashley Lelie Hawaii

2001
Rnd Name College Note
1 Willie Middlebrooks Minnesota

2000
1 Deltha O'Neal California

1999
1 Al Wilson Tennessee

1998
1 Marcus Nash Tennessee

1997
1 Trevor Pryce

1996
1 John Mobley Kutztown (PA)

1993
1 Dan Williams Toledo

1992
1 Tommy Maddox UCLA

1991
1 Mike Croel Nebraska

[jhildebrand]

He did? Let's review. Let's review!



Moreno - Led all rookies in rushing. Good pick.

Wow! Couldn't even tally one simple 100 yard game! Hillis must be better seeing how he could thrash better teams for well over 100 yards!



Ayers - Converted from a 4-3 DT to a 3-4 OLB and got significant playing time. Mayock projected him as a 3 year project. Looks good.

Couldn't set the edge on running plays. Barely could sniff the QB. Never had a sack. Was all but ineffective. I do think D lineman need at least 3 years but so far not so good.



Smith - Looked good early on, got banged up and then ended up behind Ty Law on the depth chart. Jury still out.

Behind Ty Law and Jack MF Williams who was cut for Law. Alphonso Smurf has a ways to go.

For a first round draft pick-HE LOOKS BAD!



McBath - Excellent on special teams. Didn't miss a beat when he subbed in for injured Dawkins/Hill and even started taking some snaps when they came back. Looks good.

Excited about this guy. He can be a real solid player for a long time to come. Too bad he was injured. I am sure he will be a good player.



Quinn - 3rd on the depth chart behind Graham and Scheffler. Jury still out.
Womanizer! He should be labeled the same way many of you labeled Marshall! All that asided, spending two thirds to get him to watch him do nothing even on special teams is a joke! The guy had 12 catches in college. I doubt he turns into anything.



Bruton - Special teams demon that was getting defensive snaps down the stretch. Looks good.

Could be good.


Olsen - Did not see the field, which is the norm for most rookie linemen. Jury still out.
McKinley - Saw a little promise as a returner, didn't see much offense. Jury still out.
Brandstater - 3rd quarterback who looked good in preseason. Jury still out.
Schlueter - Cut. Failure.

Nothing out of this draft class jumps off the page at a person and makes anybody say: "WOW! The Broncos had even a solid draft!" :lol:



How is that a lie? He kept Hillis despite the fact that he sucked in 2009 and that alone shows that McD planned on keeping him around, but then Cleveland decided to put Quinn (the guy he originally wanted when the Cutler trade went down) on the market and he was able to move Hillis to acquire him, so McD pulled the trigger.

Quinn isn't the guy McD originally wanted when the trade went down. That dubious distinction goes to one Matt Cassell. Nice try though.



When I see McDaniels lie I'll call him on it. So far, it hasn't happened.

Must be nice living in la la land. Let me know what the weather is like there. McD insisted they only "answered the phone." Boston Globe and Denver post both clearly demonstrated that McDaniels was the orchestrator of the three team trade for Cutler and Belichick backed out because he didn't like the idea of the uncertainty of a three team trade.

McDaniels lied about the Shaun Phillips incident!



[QUOTE=Bosco;952981]
Easy. Hillis has a clear lack of intelligence and has a hard time learning offenses. That was the book on him in College, it's the same reason Shanahan benched him in early 2008 and it's a big reason why Josh benched him. Peyton has all the talent in the world but he's just not a bright guy when it comes to football.

Right! Because Shanahan gushed about Hillis all preseason last year. Holmgren runs a complicated system. I am sure we will see plenty of Hillis. Be prepared to admit you are wrong when it happens.



Did you have your tinfoil hat on for that sentence? That fails even basic logic.

McDaniels was crucified by almost every Denver media outlet for the Moreno selection. Many point to Hillis lack of playing time as the same reason I suggested. It wou;dn't look good to have a 7th round scrub showing up your 1st round pick.



Again, distortions. Hillis was given every chance to produce. He played himself out of a job. Scheffler started more games than he ever had in his career and caught a whopping 9 less passes than in 2009. He was sent packing mainly for being a world class douche, and to a lesser extent, a poor blocker.

OK :confused: Did you see all the great blocks Moreno had? :confused: Nope because there never was one. Now you are just making shit up. So retarded. Moreno put the ball on the ground in each of his first 5 games. Hillis put it down once on a Kick Return. Moreno didn't turn around for a screen pass on more than one occasion. The fact is Hillis didn't play because McDaniels wont say. To call Hillis a douche and a world class one without supporting the statement makes you that very term.



This is absolutely true. Adam Schefter (the holy grail of Broncos reporting) and Peter King (New England connections) all stated that all the trade proposals were inbound and McD/Xanders listened and then declined them. Until a more credible source comes along and says otherwise, I'll continue believing them.

Ravage!!! could tear this to pieces. What's the point. You live in fantasy land and refuse to leave. Enjoy it.

[arapaho2]

Just my opinion, but I think your standards are set too high. Is it because Moreno is a "McDaniels guy"? Who knows. But while Moreno didnt turn in a spectacular rookie campaign...I just dont see how anyone can recall his play this past season or even watch the highlight reel and say that they didnt see ANYTHING to give them hope that he has the potential to be a special player. I dont know if you're waiting for a 250 yard game or a 5 TD game or something out of the Barry Sanders book of runs, but I have to say...he had plenty of singular moments last year that have me excited to see what he can do this year. Again...just my opinion


maybe a dominating 100+ yard game woulda helped...not alone a 250 yard game:lol::lol::lol:

[LRtagger]

I've seen it. Still doesn't make me go ' THAT WAS THE REASON WE PICKED HIM IN THE FIRST ROUND'.... not one time. Any back is going to have a tiny moment...a stutter step, a fake, a stiff arm, something..... but I wanted to see SOMETHING that showed me why he was taken in the 1st round instead of going defense.

There are a number of draft-nics that I really respect on the boards, and many were high on him.... I wanted to see why. I didn't get that 'wow' moment at all. Couldn't break free, didn't make the spectacular TD... didn't make me think that we had "the" answer at RB. Not one time.....YET. I'm not calling him a bust, by any means. I just haven't seen him do something that makes me happier we picked him over one of the defensive studs we needed.

I don't see how you can watch some of his runs last year and not go "wow". Even the NFL Network pundits said WOW and even murmured that the run reminded him of Barry Sanders...and those guys are traditionally critical of the Broncos.

Go watch some of his college film as well. There is plenty there to say wow about. He was a stud through high school, all through college in the SEC, going into the draft, and he will be a stud in the future.

Couldn't break free? A majority of his yards last year were after contact. Can you remember any spectacular TDs from any rookie RBs? I don't remember any spectacular TDs from any of our backs in 08. I would consider the TD catch against Dallas pretty spectacular. Anyways, I don't think it's worth arguing over. I think the guy will be an all-pro back in this league.

[jhildebrand]

Just my opinion, but I think your standards are set too high. Is it because Moreno is a "McDaniels guy"? Who knows. But while Moreno didnt turn in a spectacular rookie campaign...I just dont see how anyone can recall his play this past season or even watch the highlight reel and say that they didnt see ANYTHING to give them hope that he has the potential to be a special player. I dont know if you're waiting for a 250 yard game or a 5 TD game or something out of the Barry Sanders book of runs, but I have to say...he had plenty of singular moments last year that have me excited to see what he can do this year. Again...just my opinion

I would like to see him be able to protect the QB and block the "coach" said.
I would like to see him be a 3 down back like the "coach" said he is.
I would like to see him know the playbook and turn for a screen pass.

Maybe that is too much for a high first round pick. Let m make it simple. I would like to see the guy get into the second level of the D and not go down on a shoestring tackle.

I would like to see a 100 yard game out of him. 100 yards! :mad:

I think Alfred Williams knows a good running back when he sees one. Even he says there wasn't a flash of any kind from Moreno.

[CoachChaz]

I'm not going to quote the whole ridiculous thing, but I'm curious...what "great" teams did Hillis thrash? Jets? Falcons? Chiefs? Browns?

I had hoped that once he was traded that the nonsense of Hillis being a legitimate starting NFL running back would disappear, but I guess I was wrong.

I'll make a deal...if Hillis leads the Browns in rushing yards, you can change my avatar to anything you want it to be. if he doesnt...all you have to do is get all the members of your Hillis fan club to join you in admitting you were wrong.

[jhildebrand]

False.

No it isn't. Joe Ellis the COO of the Broncos on 1043 THE FAN mentioned how it is commonplace for some coaches not to have dialogue with the players they are responsible for. He mentioned McDaniels and Brady didn't speak for several weeks (6 IIRC) during the Pats undefeated season.




Charlie Weis left as the Patriots’ offensive coordinator to become head coach at Notre Dame. McDaniels was promoted from defensive assistant to essentially Weis’ replacement as offensive coordinator, although he was given the title of quarterbacks coach. So what happened in McDaniels’ first season of coaching Brady, the league’s best quarterback? The two went three weeks without speaking to each other.

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14771867 The Denver post article mentions 3 weeks. Even still almost 25% of an NFL season.

So much for FALSE! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[CoachChaz]

maybe a dominating 100+ yard game woulda helped...not alone a 250 yard game:lol::lol::lol:

Yeah...I know...no matter where anyone sets the bar, you or someone else with a passion for badmouthing the team will find something else to fit the argument.

Point taken...




















...again

[Northman]

Yeah...I know...no matter where anyone sets the bar, you or someone else with a passion for badmouthing the team will find something else to fit the argument.

Point taken...




















...again


:lol:

Amazing isnt it?

[jhildebrand]

I'm not going to quote the whole ridiculous thing, but I'm curious...what "great" teams did Hillis thrash? Jets? Falcons? Chiefs? Browns?

I had hoped that once he was traded that the nonsense of Hillis being a legitimate starting NFL running back would disappear, but I guess I was wrong.

I'll make a deal...if Hillis leads the Browns in rushing yards, you can change my avatar to anything you want it to be. if he doesnt...all you have to do is get all the members of your Hillis fan club to join you in admitting you were wrong.

When the Broncos played the Jets they were ranked amongst the best running D's for that season. They also finished as the league's 7th best run D.

[LRtagger]

No it isn't. Joe Ellis the COO of the Broncos on 1043 THE FAN mentioned how it is commonplace for some coaches not to have dialogue with the players they are responsible for. He mentioned McDaniels and Brady didn't speak for several weeks (6 IIRC) during the Pats undefeated season.

You said a majority of the season. It was 3 weeks. And Klis is the one that broke the story with zero sources. And didn't mention if it was during the offseason or during the season.

It was McDaniels first year as OC. The year Brady threw 50 TDs. I would say the two got along just fine for a majority of the season. The entire story was a complete hackjob to stir up shit amongst a fanbase that was already divided.

[arapaho2]

I'm not going to quote the whole ridiculous thing, but I'm curious...what "great" teams did Hillis thrash? Jets? Falcons? Chiefs? Browns?

I had hoped that once he was traded that the nonsense of Hillis being a legitimate starting NFL running back would disappear, but I guess I was wrong.

I'll make a deal...if Hillis leads the Browns in rushing yards, you can change my avatar to anything you want it to be. if he doesnt...all you have to do is get all the members of your Hillis fan club to join you in admitting you were wrong.

my thing with hillis isnt whether he was a starting rb..at all...if you think offense i am not to troubled with the moreno pick...he will be ok...maybe not great

my trouble is we had a FB..ranked the #1 fb in the country by many experts going into the draft..he was the concensus best blocking back in the sec

on top of all that the guy had incredible hands..and the speed of a rb

a huge weapon if used right...there were many many instances his powerful 250 pound frame and punishing style would have been a better alternative than a moreno dive on 3rd down

he coulda been a huge weapon...instead we cast him aside because the coach is afraid he would show up the #1 pick

[CoachChaz]

I would like to see him be able to protect the QB and block the "coach" said.
I would like to see him be a 3 down back like the "coach" said he is.
I would like to see him know the playbook and turn for a screen pass.

Maybe that is too much for a high first round pick. Let m make it simple. I would like to see the guy get into the second level of the D and not go down on a shoestring tackle.

I would like to see a 100 yard game out of him. 100 yards! :mad:

I think Alfred Williams knows a good running back when he sees one. Even he says there wasn't a flash of any kind from Moreno.

????

When the hell did Alfred Williams become the icon of knowledge on running backs?

[jhildebrand]

:lol:

Amazing isnt it?

Because the expectation that a high first round RB be able to get a 100 yard game is just so RIDICULOUS :rolleyes:

This is usually the part where the blind homers proclaim there were too many people in the backfield and Moreno was lucky to get what he did :rolleyes:

[Gimpygod]

It would be one thing for Sheff to be traded for a fith but Sheff AND a seventh for a fifth is very disappointing.

Who's left from the 06 class? Doom next?

yep and peeps here will be happy to be rid of his too short, cry baby, money grubbing ass!

[jhildebrand]

????

When the hell did Alfred Williams become the icon of knowledge on running backs?

I never proclaimed him to be the icon of RB's. However, I would think he would know a heck of a lot more about a RB than any Whopper pounding, chain smoking, overweight writer. I would think tackling the leagues best RB's for years would make his opinion somewhat more credible.

Even then, show me one person outside of Josh McDaniels who felt Moreno showed ANYTHING special.

[Lonestar]

I like Knowson alot more than alot of the previous #1's weve had. We had some real stinkers. He might not be the best one so far, but he damn sure isnt the worst. And he contributed a hell of alot more than Ayers.

I like Knowson alot more than alot of the previous #1's weve had. We had some real stinkers. He might not be the best one so far, but he damn sure isnt the worst. And he contributed a hell of alot more than Ayers.

Id rather have a draft success for a non percieved need than a draft flop for a definite need.

If that makes sense.

2009
1 Knowshon Moreno Georgia
1 Robert Ayers Tennessee

2008
1 Ryan Clady Boise State

2007
1 Jarvis Moss Florida

2006
1 Jay Cutler Vanderbilt

2004
1 D.J. Williams Miami (FL)

2003
1 George Foster Georgia

2002
1 Ashley Lelie Hawaii

2001
1 Willie Middlebrooks Minnesota

2000
1 Deltha O'Neal California

1999
1 Al Wilson Tennessee

1998
1 Marcus Nash Tennessee

1997
1 Trevor Pryce

1996
1 John Mobley Kutztown (PA)

1993
1 Dan Williams Toledo

1992
1 Tommy Maddox UCLA

1991
1 Mike Croel Nebraska

:salute::salute::salute::salute::salute::salute:

Those in green IMHO were total busts other thatn the limited trade value we got for them just before cutting them.

Those in Orange were good picks with scold careers in DEN.


Wow finally some one other than I noticed the poor as best DAFTING done prior to Josh coming to town

[jhildebrand]

my thing with hillis isnt whether he was a starting rb..at all...if you think offense i am not to troubled with the moreno pick...he will be ok...maybe not great

my trouble is we had a FB..ranked the #1 fb in the country by many experts going into the draft..he was the concensus best blocking back in the sec

on top of all that the guy had incredible hands..and the speed of a rb

a huge weapon if used right...there were many many instances his powerful 250 pound frame and punishing style would have been a better alternative than a moreno dive on 3rd down

he coulda been a huge weapon...instead we cast him aside because the coach is afraid he would show up the #1 pick

In ANY circumstance he was a better alternative than LaMont freaking Jordan!

[CoachChaz]

When the Broncos played the Jets they were ranked amongst the best running D's for that season. They also finished as the league's 7th best run D.

...and they were also torched early by the passing game. Think that didnt open up the run game a little?

Nevertheless...I'm still wondering where all these great teamS are that he ran over. It was a pluralized statement if I do recall.

[CoachChaz]

I never proclaimed him to be the icon of RB's. However, I would think he would know a heck of a lot more about a RB than any Whopper pounding, chain smoking, overweight writer. I would think tackling the leagues best RB's for years would make his opinion somewhat more credible.

Even then, show me one person outside of Josh McDaniels who felt Moreno showed ANYTHING special.

Just us "Kool-Aid Drinkers"

[LRtagger]

Furthermore, when he was the OC of New England Brady didn't speak or work with McDaniels for a large part of the season :lol:




http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14771867 The Denver post article mentions 3 weeks. Even still almost 25% of an NFL season.

So much for FALSE! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Unless you consider 3 weeks out of a 30 week season a large part, and the fact that there's no mention of them not working together in any capacity, then yea I guess what you said is true. But I suppose it would be in poor form as a forum poster to backup critisizm with fact.

[jhildebrand]

Just us "Kool-Aid Drinkers"

So you are so arrogant to believe the "kool aid" drinkers know more about a RB than Alfred Williams?? :confused:

The irony :shocked:

[slim]

I was not overly impressed with Moreno last year, but to say he showed NOTHING is a fairly ridiculous. You can see there is plenty there to build on, if he is willing to work at it.

[Northman]

Unless you consider 3 weeks out of a 30 week season a large part, and the fact that there's no mention of them not working together in any capacity, then yea I guess what you said is true. But I suppose it would be in poor form as a forum poster to backup critisizm with fact.


Uh, the NFL season (by playing standards) is 17 weeks so how is 3 weeks a majority of the season? My god there are dumb mother******s on this site. :lol:

[jhildebrand]

Unless you consider 3 weeks out of a 30 week season a large part, and the fact that there's no mention of them not working together in any capacity, then yea I guess what you said is true. But I suppose it would be in poor form as a forum poster to backup critisizm with fact.

You offered a one word reply of false. I offered an article providing the quantification of 3 weeks. You come back with more talking about backing things up with nothing to back up your statement. By the way, it is a 16 week schedule in football not 30 weeks.

Second, and more important, if they aren't talking to one another and McDaniels was the QB coach, just how exactly were they working together? Was McDaniels communicating with Brady via smoke signals? :lol:

[BigBroncLove]

In ANY circumstance he was a better alternative than LaMont freaking Jordan!

Honestly I'm not going to get into the whole Hillis and Moreno deal, but this is what I generally could not understand as a Bronco fan. LaMont Jordan was a beat up, slow motion runner, without the power to back it up. He had a few good runs but nothing that even came close to supporting keeping him on the roster. He was a big case of padded stats and stunk of pure favoritism... much like keeping Stephen Alexander (TE) for those two extra years as Shanahan did stunk of pure favoritism. Jordan made no sense to me...

[jhildebrand]

Uh, the NFL season (by playing standards) is 17 weeks so how is 3 weeks a majority of the season? My god there are dumb mother******s on this site. :lol:

I made it clear that Joe Ellis quantified it as 8 weeks. The Post ran a story with 3 weeks. Either way, that is a "large" part of the season for the QB Coach/OC and QB to not be talking to one another.

Maybe you should be talking to the person who thinks it is a 30 week season in the NFL.

By the way, I said a "large" part of the season not the majority. Its one thing to insinuate someone is a dumb mother****** it is a whole different thing to do it when your reading comprehension rivals that of a retarded chimp!

[Northman]

I was not overly impressed with Moreno last year, but to say he showed NOTHING is a fairly ridiculous. You can see there is plenty there to build on, if he is willing to work at it.

I would be happy if he just held onto the ball more.

[slim]

Honestly I'm not going to get into the whole Hillis and Moreno deal, but this is what I generally could not understand as a Bronco fan. LaMont Jordan was a beat up, slow motion runner, without the power to back it up. He had a few good runs but nothing that even came close to supporting keeping him on the roster. He was a big case of padded stats and stunk of pure favoritism... much like keeping Stephen Alexander (TE) for those two extra years as Shanahan did stunk of pure favoritism. Jordan made no sense to me...

I think we can all agree that keeping LaMont on the roster was a joke. The fact they actually gave him playing time is a little troubling.

[Northman]

I think we can all agree that keeping LaMont on the roster was a joke. The fact they actually gave him playing time is a little troubling.

Now, that is a legitimate beef if there ever was one.

[Lonestar]

Since it obvious that emotions are running on overload here.

I'm going to close this for a few minutes for MOST of our civil Poster to get things in check.

Enough of the dumb mother******s and genius comments..

[Lonestar]

OK now if we can be civil this thread WHILE IMO is done we can open it and post again.


Lets get

:focus:

[nevcraw]

OK now if we can be civil this thread WHILE IMO is done we can open it and post again.


Lets get

:focus:

dang - what did I miss..

[jhildebrand]

I don't think too many of the Hillis supporters felt he was a HOF back. Most were just ticked that once Bucky went down and Moreno was banged up that "coach" felt Jordan was a better alternative.

As for Scheffler. I still think it is phenomenal trade value even with the 7th we had to send over. That said, I hope the coach can replace KNOWN PROVEN talent with talent of commensurate proportions. We all know this team had enough holes to fill as it was. To continue creating them doesn't make sense IMO. So far the trades for Alphonso and Quinn (the TE) look terrible.

Marshall and Scheffler had 276 catches the past two seasons. That is a lot of receptions to make up.

[nevcraw]

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=953707&postcount=5

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm..

some quitter..

[Northman]

Its was a vast conspiracy by the players who overheard him state that he wanted the season to end. lmao

[slim]

Its was a vast conspiracy by the players who overheard him state that he wanted the season to end. lmao

I bet it's because he's white :eek:

[Northman]

I bet it's because he's white :eek:

Sheff was white? I could never really tell he wasnt on the field long enough. But, wasnt his best friend sent packing earlier that year? Didnt he cry about that to the media or something like that? :coffee::D

[slim]

Sheff was white? I could never really tell he wasnt on the field long enough. But, wasnt his best friend sent packing earlier that year? Didnt he cry about that to the media or something like that? :coffee::D

No, that was all part of the conspiracy to eradicate all white back up TE from the team.

[LRtagger]

Maybe you should be talking to the person who thinks it is a 30 week season in the NFL.

How many weeks do you think Coaches and Players interact in a season? 16?

[Bosco]

Let's review!

Wow! Couldn't even tally one simple 100 yard game! Hillis must be better seeing how he could thrash better teams for well over 100 yards! Again, led all rookies in rushing. Not a single rookie running back out performed him.


Couldn't set the edge on running plays. Wrong.


Barely could sniff the QB. Never had a sack. I counted at least 3 of Dumervil's sacks that Ayers was directly responsible for by collapsing the pocket and flushing the quarterback right to Doom. Oh, and he's a linebacker, not lineman.


Was all but ineffective. Wrong.


Behind Ty Law and Jack MF Williams who was cut for Law. Alphonso Smurf has a ways to go. And Ty Law is still a very good nickle corner.


For a first round draft pick-HE LOOKS BAD! Pssst, Smith was a 2nd rounder.

:tsk:


Womanizer! He should be labeled the same way many of you labeled Marshall! All that asided, spending two thirds to get him to watch him do nothing even on special teams is a joke! The guy had 12 catches in college. I doubt he turns into anything. Why do you people constantly refuse to mention the 4th we got back. We turned two 3rds into a 2nd and a 4th.

Do you not realize that drafting players and letting them learn behind veterans is how this team works now? You guys might as well get that through your collective heads because it's here to stay.


Nothing out of this draft class jumps off the page at a person and makes anybody say: "WOW! The Broncos had even a solid draft!" :lol:
That's because most people can't look beyond a stat sheet and see the bigger picture.


Quinn isn't the guy McD originally wanted when the trade went down. That dubious distinction goes to one Matt Cassell. Nice try though.
You realize that Cassel had been a Chief for over a month when the Cutler trade went down?

I think you might want to join Ravage in doing better fact checking.


Must be nice living in la la land. Let me know what the weather is like there. McD insisted they only "answered the phone." Boston Globe and Denver post both clearly demonstrated that McDaniels was the orchestrator of the three team trade for Cutler and Belichick backed out because he didn't like the idea of the uncertainty of a three team trade. So the Denver Post (which has never been terribly credible) and the Boston Globe (who has no real connection to the Broncos) are correct, but highly credible sources with actual links to the team like Schefter and King, are wrong?

For the record...


While New England and Kansas City were agreeing to Saturday’s trade of Cassel to the Chiefs for the draft’s 34th overall pick, there were more teams in the mix. Detroit, Tampa and Denver were involved in trade talks of their own also tied to Cassel, according to sources in the respective NFL cities.

Tampa approached Denver to try to make a three-way trade that would have sent Cassel to the Broncos and quarterback Jay Cutler to the Buccaneers. The Broncos entertained the notion and pondered it but ultimately decided against it.

Also, the Lions approached the Broncos about a trade for Cutler, trying to dangle Cassel as bait. Once again, Denver debated the deal and opted against it apparently. What made it a moot point was that while all Tampa, Detroit and Denver engaged in trade talks with New Engalnd, the Patriots went ahead and dealt Cassel to the Chiefs.


McDaniels lied about the Shaun Phillips incident! How?


Right! Because Shanahan gushed about Hillis all preseason last year. Holmgren runs a complicated system. I am sure we will see plenty of Hillis. Be prepared to admit you are wrong when it happens. I don't have to worry about being wrong. I have facts on my side. See this except from Peyton's SIGMA test.


Hillis’s SIGMA test results raise several concerns. The approach he took to learning and preparation in college produced a personal belief that he was not able to consistently execute his responsibilities in games. There are strong indications that he needs to take more personal responsibility for learning what he needs to know. His coaches should make him execute, again and again, his responsibilities in game-like time constraints. During the off-season, pre-season, and practice, he will sometimes give less than his best effort and will let up when he sees an opportunity to do so. As a result, Hillis has not always been able to meet the challenges placed in front of him by his coaches. There were times when Hillis thought he came up short of meeting his own and his coaches’ expectations. He will be concerned about the kind of system he may be placed in and whether he can be successful and meet everyone’s requirements and demands. Hillis will tend to worry that he is not as prepared as he should be going into games. This self-doubt does not speak well for his chances of advancing and mastering his position requirements at the next level. Hillis is usually content to rely heavily on his natural abilities to get by and believes that his past coaches have had little impact on his performance. He thinks that he knows best and is less likely to listen to coaches’ advice and instructions and instead will try to play the game his own way. When things are not going well for him, Hillis will be openly critical and question his coaches and his teammates.

Also see; 2008 benching. 2009 benching.


McDaniels was crucified by almost every Denver media outlet for the Moreno selection. Many point to Hillis lack of playing time as the same reason I suggested. It wou;dn't look good to have a 7th round scrub showing up your 1st round pick. Right. For that to be true you'd have to claim that the following are true.

1) McDaniels cares what the local media and fan think about his moves.
2) McDaniels would not play a productive player over a less productive one because it might reflect poorly on his choice.
3) There is a track record of number 2 occurring.

Your logic fails at all 3 steps. We can pretty easily tell that 1 is false because McDaniels has never caved to fan desires to keep guys like Cutler, Marshall and Scheffler. We can very easily see that 2 is false because the opposite of 3 is correct. Ayers was a 1st round pick and he split time with Reid and Haggan. Smith was a 2nd rounder and was split time with Williams, Law and Tony Carter at one time or another.

You (and those media outlets) are making claims based on speculation and conjecture while the facts are clearly against you. You can hold onto that belief all you want, at which case I have some 9/11 Troofers who would like to meet you.


OK :confused: Did you see all the great blocks Moreno had? :confused: Nope because there never was one. Now you are just making shit up. So retarded. Moreno put the ball on the ground in each of his first 5 games. Hillis put it down once on a Kick Return. Moreno didn't turn around for a screen pass on more than one occasion. The fact is Hillis didn't play because McDaniels wont say. To call Hillis a douche and a world class one without supporting the statement makes you that very term. Moreno was a rookie, hence a little leeway with fumbling problems. Moreno also didn't struggle with knowing his assignments. Hillis dropped as easy 1st down catch against the Bengals which led to us punting and them getting their touchdown. There is a laundry list of struggles that Hillis had and it's the same struggles he had under Shanahan.

I also wasn't calling Hillis a poor blocker or world class douche. Those words were directed at Tony Scheffler. I have nothing personal against Hillis and from my understanding he's a very good guy. I hope he goes on to have a good career.


Ravage!!! could tear this to pieces. What's the point. You live in fantasy land and refuse to leave. Enjoy it. Ravage is still learning how to fact check, so I doubt we'll be seeing him tear anything to pieces in the meantime.


Honestly I'm not going to get into the whole Hillis and Moreno deal, but this is what I generally could not understand as a Bronco fan. LaMont Jordan was a beat up, slow motion runner, without the power to back it up. He had a few good runs but nothing that even came close to supporting keeping him on the roster. He was a big case of padded stats and stunk of pure favoritism... much like keeping Stephen Alexander (TE) for those two extra years as Shanahan did stunk of pure favoritism. Jordan made no sense to me...

Jordan was brought in for the following reasons.

1) He knew the system, allowing us to focus on teaching it to our two primary backs and Hillis.
2) Locker room presence. McDaniels felt comfortable that Jordan would help instill the mentality that he wanted.
3) To be used in "ground out the clock and finish the game" and emergency roles.

He was never intended to be used as anything more than that. He filled the role that we signed him to fill, and now that Moreno/Buckhalter know the system we were free to cut Jordan and can now fill his spot with a developmental player.

[Ravage!!!]

Just my opinion, but I think your standards are set too high. Is it because Moreno is a "McDaniels guy"? Who knows. But while Moreno didnt turn in a spectacular rookie campaign...I just dont see how anyone can recall his play this past season or even watch the highlight reel and say that they didnt see ANYTHING to give them hope that he has the potential to be a special player. I dont know if you're waiting for a 250 yard game or a 5 TD game or something out of the Barry Sanders book of runs, but I have to say...he had plenty of singular moments last year that have me excited to see what he can do this year. Again...just my opinion

I didn't say he didn't show anything to give 'hope'... I said he didn't make me say 'wow.' He didn't show me more than a lot of rookies. He didn't dominate a single game, and he didn't break a long one to the house. He had some 'nice' runs, but nothing that makes you go "HOLY COW" wow. More of a "yeah yeah.. nice run" clap your hand!

Like I said... I'm not calling him a bust, but I just wasn't impressed. I was pretty excited at the draft that we got him, because I heard so many fantastic things about him. Not to mention we haven't had a top RB draft, so although I thought we should have used that pick on a different position, I was pretty pumped. But that faded. I wasn't impressed with his speed, and didn't see any 'dynamic play' last season. Sure that can grow. IT better, and I hope it does. We need it too.

But not having a good 100 yrd game, isn't something that doesn't linger.

2) I never said that we should have Hillis be the back INSTEAD of Hillis. But anyone that tells me they weren't able to see just how good he was when running the ball as a starter in 2008, is surprising to me. The guy was 250+ lbs and runs faster than Moreno, catches better than Moreno, and actually has power. Not going to be your shifty type of back.. not going to be a 'bouncer'...but he's absolutely a playmaker. So the fact that he wasn't on the field after seeing that in 2008, doesn't tell me something about HIM.. it tells me something about the coach that isn't putting him in.

[Ravage!!!]

Unless you consider 3 weeks out of a 30 week season a large part, and the fact that there's no mention of them not working together in any capacity, then yea I guess what you said is true. But I suppose it would be in poor form as a forum poster to backup critisizm with fact.

I would say that 3 weeks is a lot. Thats 10% of the coach and OC not speaking, and this doesn't seem like a lot to you?

The point that even brought this up was the mention that McD couldn't get along with premiere players. Seems he absolutely has a pattern of butting heads.... and I think its because he tries to demand too much without earning it.

[Broncolingus]

I just want everyone to know I have laughed more in reading this thread over the past couple of days than I know...

...classic.

Oh, and 'F' McD!

:D

[jhildebrand]

The point that even brought this up was the mention that McD couldn't get along with premiere players. Seems he absolutely has a pattern of butting heads.... and I think its because he tries to demand too much without earning it.

Precisely. Somebody mentioned that McDaniels got along fine. I made it clear that not only has he not i.e. Brady and more importantly that was as an OC not as a HC.

We all heard about the tials and tribulations between Cutler and Bates-both of whom many feel are a significant step down from Brady and McD-and even then they never stopped speaking to one another!

[jhildebrand]

How many weeks do you think Coaches and Players interact in a season? 16?

A season by definition is 16 weeks and a bye week. Sorry, Im not being a smart ass but simply answering your question.

Who cares what happens during OTA's, TC, and minicamp so long as it is made better by the season. That is what those functions are for-to work through the crap. The season isn't helped by not speaking to one another.

All that aside, the point still remains that McDaniels is known now for player conflict. The best coaches find ways to deal with their players and get the most of them. Parcells does it time and again. Vermeil called LJ a baby and needed to take the diapers off and still got the most out of him. Ditka could do it. McDaniels just benches guys, cuts them, or ships them out of town.

[Northman]

So Josh didnt speak with Tom for 3 weeks out of 2 years of working with him. WOW, stop the ******* presses already. hahahahahahahaha

[Ravage!!!]

So Josh didnt speak with Tom for 3 weeks out of 2 years of working with him. WOW, stop the ******* presses already. hahahahahahahaha

SO you find this to be normal between a coach and his OC? :lol: :lol:

[Northman]

Scratch that, he was the Quarterbacks coach for 4 years before the OC job so technically its 6 years of working with Brady and only 3 weeks with a beef. WOW.

[Northman]

SO you find this to be normal between a coach and his OC? :lol: :lol:

Who cares? I wasnt there to really know what the problem even was. Josh has more positives with Brady than negatives. Are you really going to ignore all that over 3 weeks which meant nothing in the long run? Really?

[Ravage!!!]

Scratch that, he was the Quarterbacks coach for 4 years before the OC job so technically its 6 years of working with Brady and only 3 weeks with a beef. WOW.

yet, it wasn't until McD was finally promoted that his 'respect me' attitude started to show up. Weird how the coincidence seems to continue to circulate ... wow indeed.

[Ravage!!!]

Who cares? I wasnt there to really know what the problem even was. Josh has more positives with Brady than negatives. Are you really going to ignore all that over 3 weeks which meant nothing in the long run? Really?

I seem to notice that Brady had more success before Josh than after it. So, as you said, we don't really know what the problem was, and we certainly don't know if things ever came to be the same. Do we know it meant nothing in the long run?

[Northman]

yet, it wasn't until McD was finally promoted that his 'respect me' attitude started to show up. Weird how the coincidence seems to continue to circulate ... wow indeed.

Whatever dude. 2 years working with the guy and they have one beef which could easily fall on Tom's shoulders as it does Josh's. Sorry if i dont get too bent out of shape on that. Anything else you want to whine about Josh? Might as well get it all out man so we can finally move the **** on. Did he run over a crowd of kids on the way to work today? Anything? Ok, lets move on shall we?

[Northman]

I seem to notice that Brady had more success before Josh than after it. So, as you said, we don't really know what the problem was, and we certainly don't know if things ever came to be the same. Do we know it meant nothing in the long run?

Really? During his time there Josh was 1-1 in Super Bowls with Brady at the helm. The one SB win he was the actual QB coach and yet he consider him a failure after 2 SB appearances. WOW

[Ravage!!!]

Whatever dude. 2 years working with the guy and they have one beef which could easily fall on Tom's shoulders as it does Josh's. Sorry if i dont get too bent out of shape on that. Anything else you want to whine about Josh? Might as well get it all out man so we can finally move the **** on. Did he run over a crowd of kids on the way to work today? Anything? Ok, lets move on shall we?

Could.... but considering we've seen more problems with McD working with players than we have with Tom working with people... its not hard to see a pattern with people. I mean, thats what your complaint was with marshall, right? The fact that you could see the patterns and didn't believe he could change them?

But let me guess, you want to whine about those making observations on McD's attitude problem? Anything else you want to whine about?

[Ravage!!!]

Really? During his time there Josh was 1-1 in Super Bowls with Brady at the helm. The one SB win he was the actual QB coach and yet he consider him a failure after 2 SB appearances. WOW

QB coach? reallly? This is what you are going to give him credit for? Tom already won two without him even in the mix, yet you are going to give him 'credit' for being the QB coach on his THIRD win??? WOW is right!!!

Also note.... smarty... I never used the word failure. YOU did. Freudian slip?

See. I said Tom had MORE success before McD was in the mix.

[Northman]

Could.... but considering we've seen more problems with McD working with players than we have with Tom working with people... its not hard to see a pattern with people. I mean, thats what your complaint was with marshall, right? The fact that you could see the patterns and didn't believe he could change them?

But let me guess, you want to whine about those making observations on McD's attitude problem? Anything else you want to whine about?

Marshall had problems before Josh so yea there was a pattern. Jay had a attitude problem both on and off the field. Sheff was his best friend and couldnt deal. Hillis, just unlucky to not fit into the guy's scheme. 4 players, 3 of whom did not want to be Broncos anymore. Boo hoo. Dude has had one year to prove himself. If he falls flat on his face oh well, we move on. As far as your observations, we've heard it all Rav. My point today is it would be nice if you guys could just move on already.

The negativity is just dragging the board down. Does this mean you cant post? No, but i do think it would be better if some of you guys just took some time off of the board. Do you really get off on all the drama that you stir up? Really? If you really hate this guy so much than why bother posting the same shit over and over? Why cant the rest of the board at least have a little optimism without all the negative nancys destroying every thread with their negativity? Take some time off, go root for Miami for a couple of years and support guys like Jay and Brandon and then come back if McD is no longer here. Im not trying to be a dick but damn dude you guys constantly cry about the same stuff and eventually its going to disrupt the board. We understand why you dont like the current state of the Broncos, there is nothing left for you to say on it really. IMO

[Ravage!!!]

North.. you are bringing out the drama with your whining about posters more than anything else. WHine whine whine... and you want to make it out to be someone else? If you guys don't like a post, then ignore it. Thats the best way to make it go away.

Instead, you want to quote it, and then comment on it, and laugh and make fun of the poster. .and gripe and complain... so that the original poster says something back and then you say something about it again and the circle continues. THen the next time, you do it again.

You are bringing more attention to the posts you don't like by continuing to acknowledge, quote, and comment on them. If you don't like what you are reading..... take a break from the board. Don't respond, or put people on ignore.

[Northman]

North.. you are bringing out the drama with your whining about posters more than anything else. WHine whine whine... and you want to make it out to be someone else? If you guys don't like a post, then ignore it. Thats the best way to make it go away.

Instead, you want to quote it, and then comment on it, and laugh and make fun of the poster. .and gripe and complain... so that the original poster says something back and then you say something about it again and the circle continues. THen the next time, you do it again.

You are bringing more attention to the posts you don't like by continuing to acknowledge, quote, and comment on them. If you don't like what you are reading..... take a break from the board. Don't respond, or put people on ignore.


100% correct. But i cant quit you.

[jhildebrand]

Again, led all rookies in rushing. Not a single rookie running back out performed him.

Plenty of rookie RB's outperformed Moreno. They didn't gain as many yards in their season but they also didn't get as many starts, carries, or a combination of. However, Shonn Greene won games for his team. How many games can you say Moreno won for us? Shonn Greene took pressure off his rookie QB! How much pressure did Moreno take off Orton?



Wrong.

Of course it is :rolleyes: I suppose Alfred Williams, Neil Smith, Mike Klis and others are wrong. They have all discussed the same shortcomings of Ayers.



I counted at least 3 of Dumervil's sacks that Ayers was directly responsible for by collapsing the pocket and flushing the quarterback right to Doom. Oh, and he's a linebacker, not lineman.

Hold the phone. Aren't you the one saying we spectators in the peanut gallery dont know the play calls, the assignments, etc...? :confused: Now all of a sudden you know everything about a play? :lol:



And Ty Law is still a very good nickle corner.


Based on what? Where was he at the Philly and KC games last year?



Pssst, Smith was a 2nd rounder.

Downright DENIAL at its best! Alphonso Smurf is a 1st rounder for all intents and purposes. We gave up a first to draft him. The cost was a first. He and the coach better hope he performs like a first.



Do you not realize that drafting players and letting them learn behind veterans is how this team works now?

Well when the coach in his post draft media explains that Quinn is a monster blocker and will see "significant" playing time even as a rookie, I think it is only fair we hold him to it. He set the expectations.



That's because most people can't look beyond a stat sheet and see the bigger picture.

I was looking at the bigger picture before anybody else. I pointed out Moreno's woes when this team was 5-0. I was FLAMED to holy hell for it. I pointed out when this team was 6-2 they would be lucky to make the playoffs. I could see the seeds of destruction.

I am still looking at the bigger picture. This team has lost 8-10 and that trend will easily continue into next season.



You realize that Cassel had been a Chief for over a month when the Cutler trade went down?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2009-04-02-cutler-timeline_N.htm

Again you have PISS POOR FACTS!

PS: Another J McDaniels lie is in there. See the note for March 3rd: "We are not trading Jay Cutler-period." :lol:

Damn you make owning you too easy!



I think you might want to join Ravage in doing better fact checking.


Oh the irony. See the above comment and tell me if you can put it together.

So the Denver Post (which has never been terribly credible) and the Boston Globe (who has no real connection to the Broncos) are correct, but highly credible sources with actual links to the team like Schefter and King, are wrong? [/QUOTE]

The Boston Globe has no connections to the Broncos? They are connected to Denver East Patriots. This team is entirely different than when Schefter was the beat writer. By the way, how can it be the Denver Post has never been credible when it comes to the Broncos but they employed Schefter? LOL. You have some goofy assed logic.

Do us a favor and provide one link to Schefter or King stating the three team scenario was bull crap!



I don't have to worry about being wrong. I have facts on my side.

Funny you haven't used them or cited them.



You (and those media outlets) are making claims based on speculation and conjecture while the facts are clearly against you.

Right because people who are around the team on a daily basis from training camp on speculate. :lol: Try journalism 101 and get back to me.



Moreno was a rookie, hence a little leeway with fumbling problems. Moreno also didn't struggle with knowing his assignments.

There was play after play of Moreno not knowing which defender was his responsibility.



I also wasn't calling Hillis a poor blocker or world class douche. Those words were directed at Tony Scheffler.

Check your quote. You called Hillis a world class douche. Stay classy, bro.



Ravage is still learning how to fact check, so I doubt we'll be seeing him tear anything to pieces in the meantime.

DENIAL DENIAL DENIAL.



Jordan was brought in for the following reasons.

1) He knew the system, allowing us to focus on teaching it to our two primary backs and Hillis.
2) Locker room presence. McDaniels felt comfortable that Jordan would help instill the mentality that he wanted.
3) To be used in "ground out the clock and finish the game" and emergency roles.

He was never intended to be used as anything more than that. He filled the role that we signed him to fill, and now that Moreno/Buckhalter know the system we were free to cut Jordan and can now fill his spot with a developmental player.

Except we had players go down and he was called on at times as the primary guy despite Hillis being a better option. By the way, that developmental player's name is JJ Arrington

[Lonestar]

OK folks it is time to stop worrying about the other posters.

As sick as I am of it also. if Y'all do not like a post IGNORE it, it will go away.

I do it all the time better yet place the posters on IGGY I would if I could. But part of my job is to be sheriff here. Keeping the peace. there fore I have to read it all or atlas as much as I can. (Stomach)


Now lets get

:focus:

[Ravage!!!]

100% correct. But i cant quit you.

Honestly... I usually only jump in on that crap, when I see posters complaining, whining, griping about the ex players or absolutely jumping to the defense of McD because they want to look away. Or.... trying to make orton out to be something he's not.

if I have to read that junk, I don't think anything said in the other direction is worse. I want to puke at some of the excuses and complaints about former players around here. No reason I should simply sit on my typing fingers.

The fans are split. Thats what happens when coaches make some dramatic changes that hurt the team..... whether you agree they hurt the team or not. A LOT of people absolutely do. Its not about 'change'...its about watching the team disintegrate.

Hell.. I could go on and on and on about hearing about JR's "daft" crap for years. You guys all want to insult the players that were here, and we are just supposed to 'accept' it as if your comments are fact. Thats irritating that you want to complain about our complaints when the insults are just as much of a drag to read.

[jhildebrand]

So Josh didnt speak with Tom for 3 weeks out of 2 years of working with him. WOW, stop the ******* presses already. hahahahahahahaha


Scratch that, he was the Quarterbacks coach for 4 years before the OC job so technically its 6 years of working with Brady and only 3 weeks with a beef. WOW.


Who cares? I wasnt there to really know what the problem even was. Josh has more positives with Brady than negatives. Are you really going to ignore all that over 3 weeks which meant nothing in the long run? Really?


Whatever dude. 2 years working with the guy and they have one beef which could easily fall on Tom's shoulders as it does Josh's. Sorry if i dont get too bent out of shape on that. Anything else you want to whine about Josh? Might as well get it all out man so we can finally move the **** on. Did he run over a crowd of kids on the way to work today? Anything? Ok, lets move on shall we?


Really? During his time there Josh was 1-1 in Super Bowls with Brady at the helm. The one SB win he was the actual QB coach and yet he consider him a failure after 2 SB appearances. WOW

Negg me all you want. The fact is someone mentioned that McDaniels didn't have player conflicts prior to Denver insinuating the issue was with the players.

The fact is he did have conflicts despite being only the QB coach. Also, it doesn't matter who started it. The fact is they beefed for AT LEAST 3 weeks of the season. The fact is it demonstrates that McDaniels had trouble getting along with the one person many consider to be the best QB of all time.

I am curious, how many other people had conflicts with Brady to the point it was public knowledge? NONE!

At some point you have to acknowledge he is the common denominator in all the player conflicts.

Finally, if you can't follow a simple thread and conversation don't bother butting in! If you do want to butt in then follow the simple point at hand.

Or you can negg me but I have no problem handing it back.

[Broncolingus]

... But part of my job is to be sheriff here....



????

http://www.hotmalevideos.com/wp-content/uploads/hungcountry.jpg

[Northman]

Negg me all you want. The fact is someone mentioned that McDaniels didn't have player conflicts prior to Denver insinuating the issue was with the players.

The fact is he did have conflicts despite being only the QB coach. Also, it doesn't matter who started it. The fact is they beefed for AT LEAST 3 weeks of the season. The fact is it demonstrates that McDaniels had trouble getting along with the one person many consider to be the best QB of all time.

I am curious, how many other people had conflicts with Brady to the point it was public knowledge? NONE!

At some point you have to acknowledge he is the common denominator in all the player conflicts.

Finally, if you can't follow a simple thread and conversation don't bother butting in! If you do want to butt in then follow the simple point at hand.

Or you can negg me but I have no problem handing it back.

Actually, i believe this whole ordeal here started when you quoted my post about how McD stated he got along fine with guys like Brady, Moss, etc. So am i really supposed to believe you know more about the details of Brady and Josh not talking to each other over a 6 year period? I think not. By negging you im not sure what you mean by that. I dont send neg reps to anyone. I just lay it out all on the forum you can ask any of the guys like Rav, Lan, etc. But it doesnt change that i like those guys regardless. I as a fan would just like to move on with the Broncos we have here and i could care less about 3 guys who didnt want to be in Denver anymore. And its all my observation on how i see the team no different than you. But, i dont try and pretend to be Miss Cleo about what happens between coach and player.

[jhildebrand]

But, i dont try and pretend to be Miss Cleo about what happens between coach and player.

And I did that where? I already stated the fact that it doesn't matter what happened but the fact that it did happen and became publicized and public knowledge.

The fact is they HAD the beef-not who started it or what it was about. The fact is they had the beef and there has been NO OTHER SIMILAR incidents with Brady prior to or post McDaniels. How is that so hard to get?

[Northman]

And I did that where? I already stated the fact that it doesn't matter what happened but the fact that it did happen and became publicized and public knowledge.

The fact is they HAD the beef-not who started it or what it was about. The fact is they had the beef and there has been NO OTHER SIMILAR incidents with Brady prior to or post McDaniels. How is that so hard to get?

Did we even know about it at the time? Who cares? Really?

[LRtagger]

A season by definition is 16 weeks and a bye week. Sorry, Im not being a smart ass but simply answering your question.

Who cares what happens during OTA's, TC, and minicamp so long as it is made better by the season. That is what those functions are for-to work through the crap. The season isn't helped by not speaking to one another.

All that aside, the point still remains that McDaniels is known now for player conflict. The best coaches find ways to deal with their players and get the most of them. Parcells does it time and again. Vermeil called LJ a baby and needed to take the diapers off and still got the most out of him. Ditka could do it. McDaniels just benches guys, cuts them, or ships them out of town.

The problem is, you don't know that it happened during the season. It could have very well happened for 3 weeks during conditioning or OTAs. Klis didn't elaborate on anything. He didn't provide any details, presumably because he doesn't have any.

Whatever issues the two may have had at the time were quickly resolved, however. Two seasons later, McDaniels was the offensive coordinator for a Patriots offense that set several records, including 50 touchdown passes from Brady.

Brady continues to speak extremely highly of McDaniels — last fall, Brady said he knew McDaniels had a handle on the offense early in his tenure in New England.

“When he was quarterback coach his first year, 2004, you could really tell,” Brady said of McDaniels in the days leading up to the Patriots-Broncos game. “He studied under the defense here for a while and I think he really brought that over to the offense and said, ‘All right, guys, this is how they’re trying to stop us, so this is how we’re going to beat it.’

“Obviously, when you can do that and you learned under coach Belichick, as an offensive coach you can bring so much information — you know, vs. formations what they’re going to do, how they’re going to play certain looks that we’re giving them. And then you try to take advantage of those looks. He was really great at that and he’s still great at that.”


Obviously it wasn't too much of an issue or it would have been reported on back in 2005 IMO.

[jhildebrand]

Did we even know about it at the time? Who cares? Really?

Well someone did because they brashly proclaimed McDaniels didn't have conflict prior to Denver. That LTRag chick chimed in as well with a ridiculous one word reply to which she was owned for it-yet didn't display the same gall to say she was wrong.

I don't really care. Trust me, I may be a critic of McD but I don't hate everything he does. Read my posts. I have given the guy his due when it was owed.

Oh and for me, this isn't about Jay Cutler. In the end I could see he made the right decision (even though Orton isn't our long term answer) on Cutler. I just didn't like the way he handled it.

I guess you could say that is why this matters. I could care less if he wants to make the team as he sees fit. It is his right and he should. I do care about how it is done. Each trade was precipitated by some drama that was manufactured to some degree.

Do you not find it the least bit interesting that McDaniels in his first rift with Marshall insisted to the media that he would keep everything in house? Then after McD looks like the master for getting Marshall in line he blew it up by airing the laundry? Why did he not keep it in house with Scheffler the same way he did with Hillis and Marshall initially?

Oh well, I am over it. He had a beef with Brady. Lets see if the conflicts continue.

[Lancane]

OK folks it is time to stop worrying about the other posters.

As sick as I am of it also. if Y'all do not like a post IGNORE it, it will go away.

I do it all the time better yet place the posters on IGGY I would if I could. But part of my job is to be sheriff here. Keeping the peace. there fore I have to read it all or atlas as much as I can. (Stomach)


Now lets get

:focus:

http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/blazingsaddles.jpg

As the Sheriff I must say you suck...hehehe

((Kidding))

"Now where the white women at!"

:lol:

[Northman]

Do you not find it the least bit interesting that McDaniels in his first rift with Marshall insisted to the media that he would keep everything in house? Then after McD looks like the master for getting Marshall in line he blew it up by airing the laundry? Why did he not keep it in house with Scheffler the same way he did with Hillis and Marshall initially?

Oh well, I am over it. He had a beef with Brady. Lets see if the conflicts continue.

Yes and no. I see a young coach who can make his own fair of mistakes. Look, im not saying that McD is going to succeed in Denver. All ive ever pointed to is that the guy needs more than one year and to be able to do it his way. Thats all. For all i know he could turn out to be just like Phillips before Shanny arrived.

[Ravage!!!]

Do you not find it the least bit interesting that McDaniels in his first rift with Marshall insisted to the media that he would keep everything in house? Then after McD looks like the master for getting Marshall in line he blew it up by airing the laundry? Why did he not keep it in house with Scheffler the same way he did with Hillis and Marshall initially?



Honestly? I think he wanted Marshall to explode by putting him on the practice squad as a Safety and gunner. Intentionally trying to embarrass him bfore his teammates. As if he was pushing to make a point, and to get a reaction.

[jhildebrand]

Yes and no. I see a young coach who can make his own fair of mistakes. Look, im not saying that McD is going to succeed in Denver. All ive ever pointed to is that the guy needs more than one year and to be able to do it his way. Thats all. For all i know he could turn out to be just like Phillips before Shanny arrived.

Fair enough.

Do I think he is doing everything wrong? No. Do I like all of his moves? No (especially the Nolan move (another conflict by the way)).

Do I want the guy to succeed? Of course! It would be a F-ton of crow to eat but I am not too proud to do it. Shoot you can film it and put it on youtube.

[Lonestar]

Honestly? I think he wanted Marshall to explode by putting him on the practice squad as a Safety and gunner. Intentionally trying to embarrass him bfore his teammates. As if he was pushing to make a point, and to get a reaction.


Guess he did IF that was what he was looking to do.

Just maybe he was trying to get his attention. Kind a like setting in the corner on a stool with a dunce hat on.

[jhildebrand]

Dang it! Now I am all wound up over some of this. I hope there are some suckers in the smack section tonight. :D

[LRtagger]

Well someone did because they brashly proclaimed McDaniels didn't have conflict prior to Denver. That LTRag chick chimed in as well with a ridiculous one word reply to which she was owned for it-yet didn't display the same gall to say she was wrong.


:rolleyes:

I'm a guy.

And I wasn't wrong. They worked just fine together in 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008. They never fueded for a "large part" of any season. What you claimed to be true was inaccurate. You even said yourself you thought it was 6 weeks. I knew it was 3.

Even using your train of thought that coaches and players only interact for 16 weeks out of every season, thats only 19% - hardly a "large part". The fact that Brady worked well with McDaniels for 3+ years after and still speaks highly of him should tell you all you need to know about how serious that "fued" was.

Besides, it was 5 years ago. It didn't detract from the Patriots breaking several NFL records with McDaniels calling plays and it will hardly detract from the way the 2010 Broncos play. If McDaniels fails in Denver rest assured the 2005 season will have ZERO (or a "large part" as you would put it) impact on his performance here.

[Bosco]

Plenty of rookie RB's outperformed Moreno. They didn't gain as many yards in their season but they also didn't get as many starts, carries, or a combination of. However, Shonn Greene won games for his team. How many games can you say Moreno won for us? Shonn Greene took pressure off his rookie QB! How much pressure did Moreno take off Orton? No other rookie running back ran for more yards than Moreno. No spin is going to change it.


Of course it is :rolleyes: I suppose Alfred Williams, Neil Smith, Mike Klis and others are wrong. They have all discussed the same shortcomings of Ayers. Mike Klis usually is wrong. He's a sportswriter, and a poor one at that. I have no idea what Smith and Alfred Williams said about Ayers.


Hold the phone. Aren't you the one saying we spectators in the peanut gallery dont know the play calls, the assignments, etc...? :confused: Now all of a sudden you know everything about a play? :lol: So now being able to see who collapsed the pocket is the same as knowing play calls and assignments?

Right.


Based on what? Besides my own analysis? Well we could go with the fact that at almost 40 years old people keep signing the guy to play football for them and as recently as a couple years ago was still a serviceable #2.


Where was he at the Philly and KC games last year? You must have missed that interception he had in the Kansas City game. Came with a 30 or 40 yard return IIRC and damn near scored a touchdown.


Downright DENIAL at its best! Alphonso Smurf is a 1st rounder for all intents and purposes. We gave up a first to draft him. The cost was a first. He and the coach better hope he performs like a first. So you accuse me of denial and then admit that he wasn't a first round pick.

You just keep getting better and better at this debate thing.


Well when the coach in his post draft media explains that Quinn is a monster blocker and will see "significant" playing time even as a rookie, I think it is only fair we hold him to it. He set the expectations. I don't recall him saying that about Quinn, but I'll take your word for it. In that case, shit happens and things don't always work out like you plan. Welcome to the NFL.


I was looking at the bigger picture before anybody else. I pointed out Moreno's woes when this team was 5-0. I was FLAMED to holy hell for it. I pointed out when this team was 6-2 they would be lucky to make the playoffs. I could see the seeds of destruction. Have no idea. I wasn't here then.


This team has lost 8-10 and that trend will easily continue into next season. Oh that's a fact?


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2009-04-02-cutler-timeline_N.htm

Again you have PISS POOR FACTS!

Damn you make owning you too easy!

http://www.w3bbo.com/forums/Blank-Facepalm.gif

I see I'm going to have to draw this one out in crayon for you. Courtesy of your own link...

• Feb. 26: Cutler's name surfaces in trade talks that could have resulted in former Patriots QB Matt Cassel being dealt to Denver. Cassel is dealt to the Kansas City Chiefs two days later.

• Feb. 28: Matt Cassel is traded, Jay Cutler goes public.

• April 2: The Broncos deal Cutler and a fifth-round pick to Chicago for two first-round draft picks, a third-rounder and QB Kyle Orton.

Now unless you're going to tell me that April comes before February, my post is factually correct and it's YOU that needs to fact check...again.


PS: Another J McDaniels lie is in there. See the note for March 3rd: "We are not trading Jay Cutler-period." :lol: Easy to discredit. Pat Bowlen himself admitted that he made the decision to trade Cutler. See the video below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvBMp1pi8TY

Oh, and if you want to see a bold faced lie, try this.

• March 16:The Broncos acknowledge that Cutler asked the team to trade him.

• March 31: The Broncos announce they will try to trade Cutler after Cook told the team he no longer wants to play in Denver.

• April 1: Cutler tells Fox Sports that he didn't want the rift to get this far. "I didn't want to get traded," Cutler said.


The Boston Globe has no connections to the Broncos? They are connected to Denver East Patriots. And they've never been terribly accurate themselves. Like most Boston media they are pretty much shut out of the Patriots organization.


This team is entirely different than when Schefter was the beat writer. True, but there are still plenty of holdovers in the organization, including Bowlen, Xanders and Ellis, all of which seem to hold Schefter in high regard.


By the way, how can it be the Denver Post has never been credible when it comes to the Broncos but they employed Schefter? LOL. You have some goofy assed logic. Schefter hasn't been with the Post for 5-6 years now, and besides, he's just one piece of that puzzle. Not a hard concept a grasp.


Do us a favor and provide one link to Schefter or King stating the three team scenario was bull crap! Pay attention. I posted in the same damn post you quoted. Here it is again, since you missed it the first time.


While New England and Kansas City were agreeing to Saturday’s trade of Cassel to the Chiefs for the draft’s 34th overall pick, there were more teams in the mix. Detroit, Tampa and Denver were involved in trade talks of their own also tied to Cassel, according to sources in the respective NFL cities.

Tampa approached Denver to try to make a three-way trade that would have sent Cassel to the Broncos and quarterback Jay Cutler to the Buccaneers. The Broncos entertained the notion and pondered it but ultimately decided against it.

Also, the Lions approached the Broncos about a trade for Cutler, trying to dangle Cassel as bait. Once again, Denver debated the deal and opted against it apparently. What made it a moot point was that while all Tampa, Detroit and Denver engaged in trade talks with New England, the Patriots went ahead and dealt Cassel to the Chiefs.

http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/02/28/cutler-upset-over-potential-deals-to-detroit-tampa-bay/


Funny you haven't used them or cited them. Once again, you ignore the facts I posted right under the part you quoted. At this point I can't tell if you're just being a PITA and doing it on purpose, but let's knock it off. Again, since you missed it the first time.


Hillis’s SIGMA test results raise several concerns. The approach he took to learning and preparation in college produced a personal belief that he was not able to consistently execute his responsibilities in games. There are strong indications that he needs to take more personal responsibility for learning what he needs to know. His coaches should make him execute, again and again, his responsibilities in game-like time constraints. During the off-season, pre-season, and practice, he will sometimes give less than his best effort and will let up when he sees an opportunity to do so. As a result, Hillis has not always been able to meet the challenges placed in front of him by his coaches. There were times when Hillis thought he came up short of meeting his own and his coaches’ expectations. He will be concerned about the kind of system he may be placed in and whether he can be successful and meet everyone’s requirements and demands. Hillis will tend to worry that he is not as prepared as he should be going into games. This self-doubt does not speak well for his chances of advancing and mastering his position requirements at the next level. Hillis is usually content to rely heavily on his natural abilities to get by and believes that his past coaches have had little impact on his performance. He thinks that he knows best and is less likely to listen to coaches’ advice and instructions and instead will try to play the game his own way. When things are not going well for him, Hillis will be openly critical and question his coaches and his teammates.


Right because people who are around the team on a daily basis from training camp on speculate. :lol: Try journalism 101 and get back to me. Have you seen some of the people who report on training camp? People like Bill Williamson sit under a damn tent all day, out of the view of the the practice field and then write stories about it that night. Do I even need to mention Josina Anderson. If you don't believe there is alot of speculation going on in the sports media world, I don't know what to tell you. There is a reason that guys like Schefter and King are so well sought after.


There was play after play of Moreno not knowing which defender was his responsibility. It wasn't "play after play". It happened, but nothing out of the norm for a rookie.


Check your quote. You called Hillis a world class douche. Stay classy, bro. So now you're going to tell me who I was talking about?

Here is the original quote on the matter.


Again, distortions. Hillis was given every chance to produce. He played himself out of a job. Scheffler started more games than he ever had in his career and caught a whopping 9 less passes than in 2009. He was sent packing mainly for being a world class douche, and to a lesser extent, a poor blocker.


Except we had players go down and he was called on at times as the primary guy despite Hillis being a better option. Umm, no. Lamont Jordan carried the ball 7 times in week 2 (Cleveland) and 6 times in week 3. Moreno and Buckhalter were both healthy in those games and LaMont was only brought in late in the game when victory was secure. From week 10 until week 14 he never touched the ball and then had 5 carries in the loss to the Raiders. At no time was he the primary guy.


By the way, that developmental player's name is JJ Arrington I'm well aware, but thanks anyway.

[dogfish]

:rolleyes:

I'm a guy.



****!

i was hoping that was you in the avatar. . . . :tsk:

[TXBRONC]

****!

i was hoping that was you in the avatar. . . . :tsk:

Desperate? :lol:

[Gimpygod]

your right we will......im also sure some of you will be suprised at who swicthes to the darkside come year 2 if we suck....many of us have open minds for next year but dont think some of us wont chnage our minds if we suck.....i am pretty sure if we suck next year, i will be one to start questioning in a big way WTF is going on in dove valley. and how much physic power i really have:lol:

You pretend as though no matter what McDaniels does that appears to be ridiculously bad for the team we simply "cannot know" unless we are psychic, what the future holds. When I go to youtube and see a guy climbing a tree with a watermelon in one hand and a butcher knife in the other I do not need to utilize otherworldly powers to deduce something horrible, yet incredibly funny, is going to happen to the guys crotch. Application of logic and knowledge of past events can be extrapolated forward to predict what's going to happen fairly well. Some moves and events can't give a clear idea of what's going to happen, raping a young, talented offense is assuredly not an equivocal act. Going into the very beginning of last year our offensive line was being touted by all experts as being great moving towards historic because they had only been together for two years and had tremendous talent all across the board. Replace a quick acting and quick footed quarterback with a dimwit that has lead feet and takes a dive faster than Michael Phelps after he hears a starters pistol and change from very effective zone blocking to whatever the hell it is McDaniels does and you suuddenly have a crap offensive line.

I also don't need to be surprised that we are Not getting good value out of great players. McDaniels has the recipe down pretty good, denigrate your players during press conferences and explain how expendable they are, try to trade them, act surprised you don't get much in return or, as is the case on this board, pretend the player isn't very good and use the low trade value as an example.

Gaffney, McDaniels Lackey/ass kisser, is going to be the starter this year and make all of our "big-plays" when he wouldn't have been able to be third string receiver on our team year before last... and shouldn't have been able to crack above that last year either. If you think teams crowded within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage last year because they didn't fear the deep threat (Entirely playcalling) wait until you see what happens without Scheffler and Marshall, holy crap opposing defenses are going to be able to use their goal line formation and still be in position to tackle receivers. Just the way McDaniels had it planned I assume. Sorry, I hate the guy, I hate everything he stands for, I hate that he is a liar and in charge of the team that usually brings me joy, I hate that he got rid of players I rooted for, I hate that Darth Vader is now the guy I have to pull for or else I'm not a good fan.

[topscribe]

I'm having a hard time drawing an equivalent between the season and a tree-climber's crotch. :confused:

And McDaniels is Darth Vader?

Oh well, enjoyed the word play, if nothing else . . .

-----

[Gimpygod]

I think the negative nancy's should take a couple of years off from football. Or at least from the forums. Its obvious they will never give this guy a chance to do his thing and we know they LOVE the former players who got traded so maybe they should just take a break. We get it, you hate McDaniels. Can you maybe leave the rest of us in peace for a couple of years while this guy does his thing? Im asking nicely. :)

I don't have to like somebody destroying my team!!! You leave you pompous bag of (alleged) crap.

[Gimpygod]

I'm having a hard time drawing an equivalent between the season and a tree-climber's crotch. :confused:

And McDaniels is Darth Vader?

Oh well, enjoyed the word play, if nothing else . . .

-----

I'm trying to say that stupid actions usually result in stupid consequences. Watermelon and butcher knife are equivalent to cutting your entire offense and other crazy moves. And McDaniels really isn't Darth Vader because Darth Vader gave in to the dark side whereas I believe McDaniels generates the dark side so I guess the more appropriate equivalent would be the Emperor. Or maybe Belichick is the Emperor... I don't know. All I know for certain is Quentin Griffin is Yoda.

[jhildebrand]

:rolleyes:

I'm a guy.

Whatever you say :cool:



And I wasn't wrong.

If you are a guy, you should at least be man enough to admit it. Also, what is with people not having reading comprehension on these boards. I never said anything about 6 weeks! I said Joe Ellis mentioned 8 but the Post reported it as little as 3.

The fact is you offered a one word reply of wrong in response to my post that McDaniels had a conflict with Brady. All the other superfluous details don't matter. The attempted point was McDaniels didn't have any of these conflicts prior to Denver. I only needed one conflict to prove that wrong and that is precisely what I provided.



Even using your train of thought that coaches and players only interact for 16 weeks out of every season, thats only 19% - hardly a "large part".

Your opinion I guess. 20% of anything is large enough for me.



The fact that Brady worked well with McDaniels for 3+ years after and still speaks highly of him should tell you all you need to know about how serious that "fued" was.

Brady has class. I highly doubt he would add fuel to the fire after the fact.



Besides, it was 5 years ago. It didn't detract from the Patriots breaking several NFL records with McDaniels calling plays and it will hardly detract from the way the 2010 Broncos play. If McDaniels fails in Denver rest assured the 2005 season will have ZERO (or a "large part" as you would put it) impact on his performance here.

Aside from the fact that CONFLICT seems to be the one major characteristic of McDaniels tenure here and there was a prior incident that could be pointed to, albeit after the fact, as the "writing on the wall."

[topscribe]

Aside from the fact that CONFLICT seems to be the one major characteristic of McDaniels tenure here and there was a prior incident that could be pointed to, albeit after the fact, as the "writing on the wall."

This "conflict" issue is pure fabrication, a figment of a wild imagination, a crock
of feces. Cutler never had a personal problem with McDaniels. He became
upset over the possibility he would be traded . . . an ego problem of Cutler's.

Marshall went out of his way, from Miami, to categorically state that he had
no personal problems with McDaniels.

Nolan had no personal problem with McDaniels. It was very clearly emphasized
that their differences were philosophical. They both claimed they parted
amicably, and there is no reason to doubt that whatsoever.

In his presser, McDaniels recounted some of the superstars he has dealt with,
including the volatile Randy Moss, Welker, Brady, Champ, Dawkins, etc.,etc.
without a hitch.

Those who claim he has had personality problems seem the same people who
have excoriated him over everything from his play-calling, drafting, and
personnel decisions to the way he smacks his lips and which direction he looks
in his interviews and pressers.

Gets old . . . :coffee:

-----

[Buff]

Mike Klis usually is wrong. He's a sportswriter, and a poor one at that. I have no idea what Smith and Alfred Williams said about Ayers.

I think Klis is an excellent beat writer and very rarely speculates on anything that he can't back up. I guess I'd be interested in seeing a couple examples of him being flat out wrong.

[topscribe]

I think Klis is an excellent beat writer and very rarely speculates on anything that he can't back up. I guess I'd be interested in seeing a couple examples of him being flat out wrong.

I don't always agree with Klis, but I don't believe a writer can be found that
we would agree with all the time. All in all, I have to agree with you: Klis is one
of about three writers on the DP who is worth reading . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

I don't always agree with Klis, but I don't believe a writer can be found that
we would agree with all the time. All in all, I have to agree with you: Klis is one
of about three writers on the DP who is worth reading . . .

----- Overall I have not been all that happy with any of the Post writers with paige being the worst klis next kreiger and jones being the best.



I think I got them all.

[BigBroncLove]

Overall I have not been all that happy with any of the Post writers with paige being the worst klis next kreiger and jones being the best.



I think I got them all.

Jeff Legwold too....

Never been a fan of Paige or Klis at all. I think both do a little to much reaching and puff pieces. Kreiger and Legwold are my favorites personally from the Post, but like you said none of the post writers really make me want to go out of my way to find some of their stories. Honestly as far as local shops go for sport writing, the Post is pretty bad. They get the facts fairly faster then other organizations but when most of their writers want to throw opinion in with their story, I usually cringe.

[topscribe]

Overall I have not been all that happy with any of the Post writers with paige being the worst klis next kreiger and jones being the best.



I think I got them all.

Actually, I like Legwold the best. Krieger can be abraisive and sometimes
offensive, but his analyses often sparkle, IMO. To me, Kiszla is the most grating,
and Woody is the dumbest. Jones can be okay, but it seems she sometimes
forgets to take her meds . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

Actually, I like Legwold the best. Krieger can be abraisive and sometimes
offensive, but his analyses often sparkle, IMO. To me, Kiszla is the most grating,
and Woody is the dumbest. Jones can be okay, but it seems she sometimes
forgets to take her meds . . .

-----
Whoops I keep getting Klis and Kizla mixed up..


But your right Legwold (not sure how I forgot him) seems to be the best overall followed by Kliss, Krieger, Lindsay Jones (seems to be the rookie).

[LRtagger]

Whatever you say :cool:



If you are a guy, you should at least be man enough to admit it. Also, what is with people not having reading comprehension on these boards. I never said anything about 6 weeks! I said Joe Ellis mentioned 8 but the Post reported it as little as 3.

The fact is you offered a one word reply of wrong in response to my post that McDaniels had a conflict with Brady. All the other superfluous details don't matter. The attempted point was McDaniels didn't have any of these conflicts prior to Denver. I only needed one conflict to prove that wrong and that is precisely what I provided.

Aside from the fact that CONFLICT seems to be the one major characteristic of McDaniels tenure here and there was a prior incident that could be pointed to, albeit after the fact, as the "writing on the wall."


He mentioned McDaniels and Brady didn't speak for several weeks (6 IIRC) during the Pats undefeated season.

OOPS.

You are saying 1/5 is a "large part"? What do you constitute as a small part? I guess if they went a day without talking that would be a small part of the season?

Speaking of reading comprehension, I said FALSE, not wrong. As in, your statement as a whole was false. You said "They did not speak or work together for a large part of the season". That statement as a whole is completely false.

My point in calling out your post as false was to hopefully get people to take 5 seconds to google a story before they post what they think they remember about it and claim it as fact to back their agenda. Not only that, but the story itself was purely speculative with no sources or specifics cited. Several players on the 2005 team have been asked and they have said they knew nothing about the rift and didnt notice any tension between the two in the locker room.

But really, keep questioning my gender and maybe it will make everything true.

[topscribe]

Whatever you say :cool:



If you are a guy, you should at least be man enough to admit it. Also, what is with people not having reading comprehension on these boards. I never said anything about 6 weeks! I said Joe Ellis mentioned 8 but the Post reported it as little as 3.

The fact is you offered a one word reply of wrong in response to my post that McDaniels had a conflict with Brady. All the other superfluous details don't matter. The attempted point was McDaniels didn't have any of these conflicts prior to Denver. I only needed one conflict to prove that wrong and that is precisely what I provided.



Your opinion I guess. 20% of anything is large enough for me.



Brady has class. I highly doubt he would add fuel to the fire after the fact.



Aside from the fact that CONFLICT seems to be the one major characteristic of McDaniels tenure here and there was a prior incident that could be pointed to, albeit after the fact, as the "writing on the wall."

.

Just as a suggestion:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Miscellaneous/9780091906818.jpg

[LRtagger]

If a QB throws 16 passes, completing 13 of them, would anyone in their right mind (besides jhil) say that a large portion of the QBs throws were incomplete?

If a player plays 16 seasons in the league, has 3 bad seasons and 13 pro bowl seasons, would anyone here (besides jhil) say that for a large part of the player's career he was a bad player?

If a player started and played at an all-pro level for 13 games (missing 3 due to injury) out of a 16 game season, would anyone here (besides jhil) say that the player missed a large part of the season due to injury?

I guess by those standards we dominated and won for a large part of the season last year.

[Broncolingus]

If a QB throws 16 passes, completing 13 of them, would anyone in their right mind (besides jhil) say that a large portion of the QBs throws were incomplete?

If a player plays 16 seasons in the league, has 3 bad seasons and 13 pro bowl seasons, would anyone here (besides jhil) say that for a large part of the player's career he was a bad player?

If a player started and played at an all-pro level for 13 games (missing 3 due to injury) out of a 16 game season, would anyone here (besides jhil) say that the player missed a large part of the season due to injury?

I guess by those standards we dominated and won for a large part of the season last year.

"I'm detecting some sarcasm..." :D

http://img.youtube.com/vi/QvYRXrjHiGE/2.jpg

[arapaho2]

you wish you hit a nerve i just stop arguing when isee the other person is blind....at least rav, claymore, cane can be constructive at times and get there point across and have good points... i have yet to see that from you......

and a big reason our offense was so basic last year, was becasue of our OL.....if you cant understand that then sorry.....


would that be the same oline that was ranked 2nd in yards...16th in scorieng..and allowed a miniscule 12 sacks on the year in 08?

i also keep hearing our 09 offense was so damm complex..what is it basic or complex? stick to one story...mine has never swayed..orton is average..mcd sucks as a head coach until proven otherwise..and we are bleeding talent ...

no matter what the excuse..you dont just play at a high level one year than as a group totaly suck the next..face it the oline went downhill because the playcalling and talent taking the snaps went down hill
weigman was one of the best centers in 08...suddenly in 09 hes a reason our offense was pathetic?...really? why not blame santa clause..thats just as plausible

[Overtime]

Face it - the Broncos could have got Payton Manning and the Colts #1 pick, and you would have found something to complain about :tsk:

They are lucky they got anything for Scheffler - they could have waited until training camp, and cut him, with nothing in return.

i have to disagree with you carol.

we gave up a player and a draft pick for (1) 5th round pick????? i dont know who taught mcdumbass math (he's supposed to be a math major i thought) but that doesn't add up too well to me.

now had we acquired a 5th and a 7th for Sheff, that might make a little more sense.

:rolleyes:

[arapaho2]

Game time decision. The "player" said he was injured and didn't feel he could go. Use Marshall's ignorance and stupid tactic against him. Instead McDaniels monster ego got in the way. He had to send a message right then and there. He had to prove a point. He threw a player under the bus. Acted like a baby and not the 33 year old coach/gm of this team.


on wensday...key word ...wensday...you know 4 days before game time...how many injured players each week on wenday are asked can you go? and ansewr i dont think so...

point is there is no doubt in my mind had mcd left it at that..labled him a game time dec..marshall would have ponied up on sunday....no coach inthier right mind pencils out a probowl player on wensday..none.. unless its for certain he cant go

[topscribe]

would that be the same oline that was ranked 2nd in yards...16th in scorieng..and allowed a miniscule 12 sacks on the year in 08?

i also keep hearing our 09 offense was so damm complex..what is it basic or complex? stick to one story...mine has never swayed..orton is average..mcd sucks as a head coach until proven otherwise..and we are bleeding talent ...

no matter what the excuse..you dont just play at a high level one year than as a group totaly suck the next..face it the oline went downhill because the playcalling and talent taking the snaps went down hill
weigman was one of the best centers in 08...suddenly in 09 hes a reason our offense was pathetic?...really? why not blame santa clause..thats just as plausible

Wiegmann did not play this last year in 2008. He played it in 2009. Wiegmann
is crowding 40. I don't know how old you are, but when you are 40, one year
can make a significant difference. And it did . . . both in Wiegmann's and
Hamilton's respective cases.

Toward the last half of last year, the O-line repeatedly got blown up. I saw it.
You should have seen it.

I hope this helps to lead you to a better understanding . . .

-----

[arapaho2]

Yeah...I know...no matter where anyone sets the bar, you or someone else with a passion for badmouthing the team will find something else to fit the argument.

Point taken...




















...again


i guess thinking a 1st rnd rb getting a 100 yards in at least one game is setting the bar to high...right?

[LRtagger]

weigman was one of the best centers in 08...suddenly in 09 hes a reason our offense was pathetic?...really? why not blame santa clause..thats just as plausible

Player production fluctuates from year to year all the time. The best player one year may not be the best the next. Even if we had stayed with the ZBS in 09, there is no guarantee that we would have been successful.

Weigman wore down, Hamilton couldnt hold the point in the new blocking scheme, and Harris was hurt for a good part of the year. Partner that with the fact that we swapped a mobile QB in 08 to a pocket passing QB in 09. It's simple to see why/how the Oline slid.

It's Josh's job to make sure in 2010 that they get back to form in his system. If the line play declines again in 2010, then I think you can place the blame squarely on Josh (barring huge injury problems or some other anomaly).

[LRtagger]

i have to disagree with you carol.

we gave up a player and a draft pick for (1) 5th round pick????? i dont know who taught mcdumbass math (he's supposed to be a math major i thought) but that doesn't add up too well to me.

now had we acquired a 5th and a 7th for Sheff, that might make a little more sense.

:rolleyes:

Actually, I think it tells you that the rest of the league didn't covet Scheffler the way Broncos fans do. Seeing as how the only team that would take him only took him on the contingency that he DIDNT request his contract be extended. And who's better receiving TE was coming off a major injury. Scheffler will be back on the market again in 2011. He is just a bandaid for a crappy team and we still got a 5th for him while giving up a throw away pick.

I think we were lucky we got anything at all.

[arapaho2]

Player production fluctuates from year to year all the time. The best player one year may not be the best the next. Even if we had stayed with the ZBS in 09, there is no guarantee that we would have been successful.

Weigman wore down, Hamilton couldnt hold the point in the new blocking scheme, and Harris was hurt for a good part of the year. Partner that with the fact that we swapped a mobile QB in 08 to a pocket passing QB in 09. It's simple to see why/how the Oline slid.

It's Josh's job to make sure in 2010 that they get back to form in his system. If the line play declines again in 2010, then I think you can place the blame squarely on Josh (barring huge injury problems or some other anomaly).


i dont contend they dont fade...hamilton showed signs for a couple years aside from the year he sat out...i could also accept weigman didnt play his best in 09

not my issue...my issue is just what you stated....we gave up a mobile qb that made the oline better for one that made it worse

the frequent whine here is that orton couldnt produce or win..moreno couldnt run...our offense didnt succeed...because our offensive line suddenly sucked...it didnt
we changed blocking schemes...we changed to a average pocket passer
and suddenly everybody is crapping all over the oline...

i gave some stats earlier that showed exactly the case ..with the patriots...07 the pats oline gave up like 16 sacks...changed to cassel in 08 and it bloomed to 47...so did the pats oline just suddenly suck? according to the experts on this board they must have...brady came back in 09 and the sacks sunk below 20 again...so did they suddenly get better?...no they just had a great qb who could play at a high level and made the line look better

its not that they suddenly sunk off the mapp...we changed to a qb that cant avoid a sack...and a scheme they were not built for

[arapaho2]

Wiegmann did not play this last year in 2008. He played it in 2009. Wiegmann
is crowding 40. I don't know how old you are, but when you are 40, one year
can make a significant difference. And it did . . . both in Wiegmann's and
Hamilton's respective cases.

Toward the last half of last year, the O-line repeatedly got blown up. I saw it.
You should have seen it.

I hope this helps to lead you to a better understanding . . .

-----

top..i take it you were following the brisbane broncos in 08...cause the denver broncos had wiegman play center in 08 and he was a probowl alternate

did it ever occur to you that the line as you say were blown up because we were very predictable?..im not a rocket scientist but even i could look at the bronco tapes and see we passed about 70 % of the time from shotgun with about 40 rushing attempts from shotgun sprinkled in...now im not a psycic either but even i could see that if the bronco lined up in the shotgun it was probably a passing play

predictability leads nowhere for a nfl offense

[topscribe]

top..i take it you were following the brisbane broncos in 08...cause the denver broncos had wiegman play center in 08 and he was a probowl alternate

did it ever occur to you that the line as you say were blown up because we were very predictable?..im not a rocket scientist but even i could look at the bronco tapes and see we passed about 70 % of the time from shotgun with about 40 rushing attempts from shotgun sprinkled in...now im not a psycic either but even i could see that if the bronco lined up in the shotgun it was probably a passing play

predictability leads nowhere for a nfl offense

You didn't read me right. I said Wiegmann did not play last year in 2008. Why
didn't he play last year in 2008? Because last year was 2009. Get it?

And the line was blown up because the line was blown up. They could not
block. I've seen lines that can block. Denver's in 2008 was one of them.
Denver's in 2009 was not, at least in the second half of the season. Harris'
injury and departure hurt . . . bad. And Wiegmann and Hamilton just wore
down. Why? They got old. That's all I can think of. And Hochstein proved he
is a career backup, and marginally so, at best.

That, paired with a rookie RB because the experienced one was injured, and
the starting QB playing on a high ankle sprain, spelled disaster.

-----

[Lonestar]

You didn't read me right. I said Wiegmann did not play last year in 2008. Why
didn't he play last year in 2008? Because last year was 2009. Get it?

And the line was blown up because the line was blown up. They could not
block. I've seen lines that can block. Denver's in 2008 was one of them.
Denver's in 2009 was not, at least in the second half of the season. Harris'
injury and departure hurt . . . bad. And Wiegmann and Hamilton just wore
down. Why? They got old. That's all I can think of. And Hochstein proved he
is a career backup, and marginally so, at best.

That, paired with a rookie RB because the experienced one was injured and
the starting QB playing on a high ankle sprain, spelled disaster.

-----

Hamilton has failed at pass protect since we went to the DINGER mode back in 2006. The only reason he survived so long he got help from his teammates.

While he was decent in ZBS when he had to go one on one he was pushed back into the pocket way to many time thus cutting off a potential escape route for the QB IF your OLG is where you are trying to step up into then you get sacked since the DE and LB's were coming from the edge.

I have watch him on skates for several years. @285 or so trying to block NT at 330+ your going to lose almost overtime UNLESS you get help from the OC or OLT all of which had their hands full with their guy.