Are you interested in the offense the Broncos run? (Erhardt-Perkins offense)

[Mr D]

Here's a good write up on it... gives good basic information/philosophies of the offense so hopefully people will understand more of what's going on.

http://fatmilkfootball.blogspot.com/2009/11/brady-overrated-part-6-schemes.html

It's a bit lengthy, the beginning talks about how Colts/teams attack the Cover 2/Tampa 2... some background on that defense pretty much.

Then as you go down you'll see information about how the Patriots attack it (which would be the same as the Broncos).

quoted the main part of the write up about our offense - but you should read the whole write up to get a better understanding. There are pictures in the link too - so it's better to go check that out.


So how does it work?

The Patriots run a number of core plays out of multiple formations. The multiple formations confuse defenses and hide the true intentions of the offense. As in the Coryell system, the flankers are sent deep downfield and the slot receiver, tight end and running backs are sent on short routes that attack the field opened up by the deep routes. Unlike the Coryell system, the aim isn't to go deep. Instead, the offense is designed to attack that space in the short field vacated by the flankers. The West Coast influence is obvious: the short routes are classic West Coast timing routes. A lot of slants, curls and hooks, short ins and outs. And if the Patriots really want to turn the screws, they eschew the huddle and run the hurry up offense, which makes it next to impossible for the defense to substitute players. The running game in this offense is secondary; it's used mainly to keep the linebackers from cheating back into coverage pre-snap and to set up the play action.

Practically, this means the Patriots like to stock their offense with speedy wide receivers at the flanker positions who can get downfield fast, providing a credible threat to go deep. The slot needs to be a smart, athletic player who can get in and out of his routes quickly. The offense needs a running back who can catch the ball out of the backfield, provide additional pass blocking, as well as run the ball reasonably well. The tight end is expected to be able to attack the seam in the zone coverages that open if the defense tries to comprehensively cover the short zones. For instance, against the Cover 2:



Note: The left side is a standard drawing of the routes and coverages. The right side is a drawing of the offense's routes and the position the defenders will be in once in coverage.


This is a standard play in the Patriots offense. As you can see, the deep routes by the flankers cause the safeties to cover them, leaving the deep middle of the field wide open. The tight end, running a post pattern, attacks that hole in the zone coverage. If the strong safety (on the right of the diagram) chooses to cover the tight end's post pattern, the flanker on that side will most likely be open. If the defense has covered all of the routes up field, the quarterback can dump it off to the running back. Here's that same play against the Tampa 2:

Against the Tampa 2, the tight end can't get open running up the seam. The middle linebacker has dropped back into deep coverage, freeing the safeties to cover the flanker's deep routes. But this weakens the short zone coverage, and the slot receiver is able to find a hole in the zone by running a buttonhook. Again, the quarterback can also choose to dump it off to the running back.

In a Cover 2 Man situation, with man-on-man coverage and two deep safeties, the quarterback will target the slot receiver who, in theory, is able to shake his coverage. If he is unable to, the quarterback will dump it off to the running back who is expected to make a play against a linebacker in isolation.

(The astute football nerd will note that the Patriots don't actually have a formation exactly like the one I've drawn up. It's sort of a combo of the Patriots' Gun Spread Right form and their 0 Out Slot form. But who gives a shit?)

The system is the very opposite of Al Davis' philosophy (“We take what we want!”). It's a system that takes what the defense gives, and attempts to force the defense to give more than it wants to by using different formations, pre-snap motion and play action fakes to confuse defenders and draw them out of position. Most importantly, it encourages the quarterback to make safe, easy throws.

The Patriots' system, just like the Colts' system, spreads the field with multiple receivers quite a bit, which makes nullifying the pass rush tricky. The Pats' short routes help, but their primary way of slowing the pass rush is to run a lot of well-timed screen plays that, like a master of Judo, uses the defense's aggressiveness against it.

So what does a quarterback need to play in this offense? Not very much. The quarterback needs to possess only limited ability: good football smarts, short to medium passing accuracy, an arm good enough to make the deep ball a possibility, and a good play action fake. Brady fits this mold perfectly and plays as one would expect a quarterback who fits a system perfectly to perform.

It makes much more sense now why we drafted Moreno... why Kyle Orton was able to have success... etc and what players we'd possibly be interested in.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Yep, pretty much what most of us understood it to be. It pads the QB's stats with safe throws and relies heavily on the underneath stuff. The difference here, is that the Patriots have a QB that can exploit those deep routes when they uncover.

[Lonestar]

we really do not know for sure if KO or quoin has the gun to make the throws since our OLINE can't give them the time to set it up.

Thus the need for pass protect OLG and center.

the real plus for all of this is we will be able to run the ball when we need to.

No sense at all in having whiz bang WRs if they do not have the time to run the routes. hence the reason for all of the throws to BM cause nothing else was open.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Yep, pretty much what most of us understood it to be. It pads the QB's stats with safe throws and relies heavily on the underneath stuff. The difference here, is that the Patriots have a QB that can exploit those deep routes when they uncover.

Or the difference could be that the Patriots have a QB who has played in that system for 10 years.

[Ravage!!!]

Or the difference could be that the Patriots have a QB who has played in that system for 10 years.

I thought he won Super Bowls in his 2nd, 3rd, and 5th?

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I thought he won Super Bowls in his 2nd, 3rd, and 5th?

OK - still does not change the fact that he has played in that system for 10 years :confused:

[Ziggy]

I think we'll see McD's twist on this offense when we have a line that can block well. Much like Shanahan's version of the WCO. Last season the offense was limited because we couldn't run the ball or give our QB time to let routes develop on passing downs. When that happens, the luxury of being able to call any play you want to goes out the window.

[Carl]

After reading this, Dez Bryant at 11 seems very unlikely. He doesnt have the elite speed for an ideal X and the position is not the greatest priority in this offense. Protection and a smart QB, who can get the ball to the right guy, not the best guy, are. Spiller also seems unlikely. If we make an offensive pick in the first I cant imagine it being anyone besides Pouncey or Iupati who are both reaches at 11. I think i understand why McD talked about trading down. Its either Defense or trade down. Personally, Im hoping for Defense but nonetheless, it puts things in perspective.

[Bosco]

Pretty good read. Lots of good information there. In fact, this part...


The Patriots offense, specifically, has taken shape in an interesting way. Built around the Erhardt-Perkins model's multiple formations, the Patriots have incorporated the vertical outside passing game of the Coryell system, the safe, high-percentage passing of the West Coast, and the no-huddle hurry up of the Spread. Is nearly word for word what I've posted on this forum a couple times now.


Yep, pretty much what most of us understood it to be. It pads the QB's stats with safe throws and relies heavily on the underneath stuff. You realize you just described the West Coast Offense passing philosophy in a nutshell?


The difference here, is that the Patriots have a QB that can exploit those deep routes when they uncover. They also have a legitimate deep threat receiver and a line that could provide enough time for those deep routes to develop.


After reading this, Dez Bryant at 11 seems very unlikely. He doesnt have the elite speed for an ideal X and the position is not the greatest priority in this offense. Exactly right. McDaniels was forced to focus the offense on the Y receiver because it was the only position our best wide receiver was suited for. We already have the Y (Gaffney) and Z (Royal) receivers on the team, we just need someone to play that X position.

[OrangeHoof]

The Spread is essentially a modified Run-and-shoot which was all read-and-react by receivers on the premise that the standard 4-3 defense can't cover five receivers effectively. The WCO uses similar principles but keeps the TE and HB in the game where the R&S abandoned them. In obvious passing downs, the WCO turns into the R&S if they go to four-wides.

That's nothing new. I think the success the Patriots have had has been largely on getting personnel that perfectly fits their roles and building an OL that opens holes for the backs who are able to run around more since the defense is focused on stopping the pass.

The Cover 2 is a help defense that expects a lot from their safeties to help the corners and their LBs to help their safeties. The QB then needs to find the hole and try to get the ball there before the defenders can close.

IOW, it's not the system as much as it is the personnel. The coaches would rather you believe it is the system and the gameplanning but everybody pretty much knows what everybody else is doing and they all copy each other. So, the team with the best personnel and the best execution wins out. I think that's why the Belichick disciples have such a hard time matching their old boss' success.

The more a system is copied, the harder it is to land the exact player you need since other teams want him too. For awhile, the Steelers had a near monopoly on wanting 3-4 LBs and trapping guards. Now, nearly half the teams in the league are 3-4 so the Steelers don't have as many great players fall into their laps as before. But they still find the trapping guards because the WCO and R&S don't rely on trap plays.

[Mr D]

Remember that McDaniels will adjust the system, create new concepts (Wild Horses), new plays, etc... so just take this for a base philosophy - that's is most important.

As far as Dez - I don't think he's out of the equation, but I'm sure the Broncos are fiending to trade back and build the trenches.

Remember that receivers can be used to line up in different slots - so this greatly improves the unpredictability/packages/versatility of your offense. Dez would be able to line up to run deep or short. Whether it's better to have specialty WR's (Randy Moss/Welker), that's up for the coaches to analyze...

One thing is - the system does not rely heavily on the WR's to all be great... they just have to be great at one specific area of the game.

[broncofaninfla]

I knew just as soon as I read the initial story it would be followed by the people who consistantly make excuses for Mcd's poor play calling and Ortons inability to hit the moderate to deep stuff.

We ran the ball succesfully the first 6 games yet Orton wasn't hitting the moderate to deep balls then either.

[Mr D]

I knew just as soon as I read the initial story it would be followed by the people who consistantly make excuses for Mcd's poor play calling and Ortons inability to hit the moderate to deep stuff.

Are you delusional? Are you making stuff up that lines up with your beliefs? Are you reading things and stretching them into what you personally see?

First off, how credible are you? I mean you obviously can't spell - and I'm sure all browsers have spell checkers now if you're using anything recent.

Who made any excuses for McDaniels play calling? Who made any excuses about Orton's inability to hit the deep ball?

Seriously.. how credible are you? I mean - are you sitting here telling me YOU can tell the difference between "poor" play calling and "poor" execution? :lol:

Yeah, I knew just as soon as I were to visit a Broncos forum, there would be fans acting as if we have the worst coach in recent NFL history, and fans that are so far off touch from reality they seem turn everything they read into a whole different interpretation that fits their beliefs. :lol:

It's like if I said religion is not cool and then someone comes in and says I dissed Allah.


:lol: @ these fans... I'm wondering what they'll say when we start winning.. or what they were saying when we were winning.

[broncofaninfla]

Are you delusional? Are you making stuff up that lines up with your beliefs? Are you reading things and stretching them into what you personally see?

First off, how credible are you? I mean you obviously can't spell - and I'm sure all browsers have spell checkers now if you're using anything recent.

Who made any excuses for McDaniels play calling? Who made any excuses about Orton's inability to hit the deep ball?

Seriously.. how credible are you? I mean - are you sitting here telling me YOU can tell the difference between "poor" play calling and "poor" execution? :lol:

Yeah, I knew just as soon as I were to visit a Broncos forum, there would be fans acting as if we have the worst coach in recent NFL history, and fans that are so far off touch from reality they seem turn everything they read into a whole different interpretation that fits their beliefs. :lol:

It's like if I said religion is not cool and then someone comes in and says I dissed Allah.


:lol: @ these fans... I'm wondering what they'll say when we start winning.. or what they were saying when we were winning.

A little early for the personal attack isn't it? What's wrong, your mother put you on restriction this weekend? BTW, you might not recognize her when you get home, I shaved her back.

[NightTrainLayne]

That's enough of the personal attacks guys. Let's get back :focus: .

[arapaho2]

Seriously.. how credible are you? I mean - are you sitting here telling me YOU can tell the difference between "poor" play calling and "poor" execution? :lol:




.

its commonly known when your first response is a personal jab followed by spelling or grammer smack...the rest of the post will suck also

and so i will ask for clarifacation...how do you define what is poor playcalling...and what is poor execution???

i mean to me it seems that no matter how well you execute a bubble screen....if it doesnt work the 2nd and 3rd time you run it....chances are it wont work the 4th, 5th , 6th and 7th time you run it

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Or the difference could be that the Patriots have a QB who has played in that system for 10 years.

He's been doing it all along. How many "down years" has Brady had no matter who his WRs were? He's on his 3rd different WR corps in those 10 years. He's still one of the best. The system works because of him, not the other way around. The system is only as good as the guy running it.

[Mr D]

its commonly known when your first response is a personal jab followed by spelling or grammer smack...the rest of the post will suck also

and so i will ask for clarifacation...how do you define what is poor playcalling...and what is poor execution???

i mean to me it seems that no matter how well you execute a bubble screen....if it doesnt work the 2nd and 3rd time you run it....chances are it wont work the 4th, 5th , 6th and 7th time you run it

lol is it not a coincidence that the person complaining about "grammAr" smack is the smack is the same person that can't spell either? Like I said, I think all browsers have spell checkers.

It's hard to determine what is poor execution vs poor play calling when you're watching from our POV. We don't know the play, we don't know the assignments of the players, etc.

I mean off course - by default when a play works/doesn't work everyone is quick to point fingers at the play caller. In reality - it doesn't always work like that.

And what are you talking about this 4,5,6, 7th time you run it? There was a post on another forum from a football coach talking about how poorly the Broncos were executing some of those screens.

To me though - your last line pretty much lets me know where you stand as far as thinking goes.

"No matter how well you execute the bubble screen" - first off, how do you know how well it's being executed?

"if it doesnt work the 2nd and 3rd time you run it....chances are it wont work the 4th, 5th , 6th and 7th time you run it" - that is by far the worst logic when it comes to football - hence me being done with you. :lol:

[arapaho2]

lol is it not a coincidence that the person complaining about "grammAr" smack is the smack is the same person that can't spell either? Like I said, I think all browsers have spell checkers.

It's hard to determine what is poor execution vs poor play calling when you're watching from our POV. We don't know the play, we don't know the assignments of the players, etc.

I mean off course - by default when a play works/doesn't work everyone is quick to point fingers at the play caller. In reality - it doesn't always work like that.

And what are you talking about this 4,5,6, 7th time you run it? There was a post on another forum from a football coach talking about how poorly the Broncos were executing some of those screens.

To me though - your last line pretty much lets me know where you stand as far as thinking goes.

"No matter how well you execute the bubble screen" - first off, how do you know how well it's being executed?

"if it doesnt work the 2nd and 3rd time you run it....chances are it wont work the 4th, 5th , 6th and 7th time you run it" - that is by far the worst logic when it comes to football - hence me being done with you. :lol:


so your of the impression that if the opposing defense is sniffing the bubble screen out, knows its comeing , is ready for it

its still a matter of poor excecution that it continues to fail attempt after attempt?

[Mr D]

so your of the impression that if the opposing defense is sniffing the bubble screen out, knows its comeing , is ready for it

its still a matter of poor excecution that it continues to fail attempt after attempt?

This is the exact point I'm trying to make - judging by your posts I can tell you can't be too old.

First off - screen passes are ran as a play depending on the defensive alignment. Now, I don't know the details for THIS offense - but WR screen passes are rarely ran as the called play (and I know during the year that this was the case many many times). The play caller will call in a play that contains the formation and assignments of the players...etc... after the offense lines up... if the defense is in a formation that warrants the screen pass (hence our offense being "we take what they give us"), the QB and WR should be on the same page or the QB will look over to the WR and the rest is history.

I tried to explain that with as basic language as possible, so I hope you understand.

As far as your 2nd question... I'm really not going that low/dumb to answer that question. :lol:

[Dean]

This is the exact point I'm trying to make - judging by your posts I can tell you can't be too old.

First off - screen passes are ran as a play depending on the defensive alignment. Now, I don't know the details for THIS offense - but WR screen passes are rarely ran as the called play (and I know during the year that this was the case many many times). The play caller will call in a play that contains the formation and assignments of the players...etc... after the offense lines up... if the defense is in a formation that warrants the screen pass (hence our offense being "we take what they give us"), the QB and WR should be on the same page or the QB will look over to the WR and the rest is history.

I tried to explain that with as basic language as possible, so I hope you understand.

As far as your 2nd question... I'm really not going that low/dumb to answer that question. :lol:

Get over yourself.

[Bosco]

This is the exact point I'm trying to make - judging by your posts I can tell you can't be too old.

Was it the god awful spelling that gave it away?

[Mr D]

Was it the god awful spelling that gave it away?

:beer: <--- you see it too?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f_DPrSEOEo

[Bosco]

:beer: <--- you see it too?!

Hell, I went to quote a post of his and had to double check to make sure I didn't accidentally delete a bunch of random letters.

[jhildebrand]

Seriously.. how credible are you? I mean - are you sitting here telling me YOU can tell the difference between "poor" play calling and "poor" execution? :lol:

I sure can. Here is one example that exemplifies both in one scenario.

You run a throw back screen to your LT 10 yards shy of the endzone, despite spending a high first round pick on a RB, and damn near get the guy's leg destroyed.

Poor play calling and poor execution.