McClain, Pouncey or bust

[Lonestar]

Krieger: McClain, Pouncey or bust
By Dave Krieger
Denver Post Columnist
POSTED: 04/17/2010 01:00:00 AM MDT

Josh McDaniels said all the things coaches have to say at their NFL-mandated pre-draft news conferences — love every player, would take one at any position, willing to trade up or down — but he also said some things he didn't have to say.

Whether these things are to be believed is another question. All coaches throw out at least a little pre-draft misdirection, and we don't have a lot of experience separating McDaniels' direction from his misdirection.

That said, none of it dissuaded me from thinking the obvious course is also the right one: If he's there, the Broncos should draft Alabama linebacker Rolando McClain with the 11th pick of the first round. If he's not, they should trade down a few spots and take Florida center Maurkice Pouncey.

As to whether McClain will be there, your guess is as good as mine. Jacksonville, picking just ahead of the Broncos at No. 10, could take him just as easily — or possibly ask for something from the Broncos to flop picks and take somebody else.

But if McClain is gone when Roger Goodell puts the Broncos on the clock, it will be time to slide back a bit, which they've already gotten inquiries about doing. There, they could make Pouncey the 6-foot-5, 305-pound anchor of the bigger, stronger offensive line McDaniels covets.

There are other possibilities at No. 11, of course. There's Dez Bryant, the Oklahoma State wide receiver who could replace Brandon Marshall. There's Dan Williams, the Tennessee defensive tackle who might — and I emphasize might — star on the defensive line.

And there are other possibilities if they move back, including Idaho offensive lineman Mike Iupati and Missouri linebacker Sean Weatherspoon. Not to mention Tim Tebow, whose fans may still be hanging out in the parking lot at Dove Valley, I'm not sure.

Still, centers worth first- round draft picks don't come along every year, and Pouncey has come along in a year when the Broncos happen to need one. If McClain is gone, Pouncey becomes their best consolation prize.

But McClain is the guy they need most. Not since Al Wilson have the Broncos had a fire-breathing leader in the middle of their defense. They've already opened the spot by releasing Andra Davis, who started beside D.J. Williams at inside linebacker last season. McDaniels has worked with Alabama coach Nick Saban and knows how much responsibility McClain was given to run a defense of pro-style complexity.

It is as if McClain were built to the specifications McDan- iels keeps talking about — smart, tough, fast, strong. If the Broncos want to stop getting manhandled, a 6-4, 258- pound inside linebacker is an excellent place to start.

"I'm not sure I've met a young man as intelligent relative to the game of football (as) Rolando McClain," McDaniels said. "He's obviously been well-coached, but even if you're coached well, it takes another side to get to where he's at. He's obviously done a lot of listening, studying and understands the game at a level where most kids that come in as rookies will never be at."

McDaniels also said nice things about lots of other players, of course, including Bryant, whom the Broncos had in for a visit Wednesday, the same day as McClain. Still, plugging Bryant into the Broncos' draft slot because he's a logical replacement for Marshall assumes McDaniels is looking to recreate last season's status quo. He's not. He's looking to beef up the foundation of his team.

The other realistic possibility at No. 11, assuming McClain is gone, is Williams. The Broncos have signed three veteran defensive linemen in free agency, but McDaniels said that wouldn't stop him from drafting a difference-maker there.

He also pointed out that Williams had only one year of big-time production at Tennessee, after Monte Kiffin arrived to coach the defense last season. Linebacker Robert Ayers, whom McDaniels drafted at No. 18 last year, also played at Tennessee and also had only one year of first-round production. Ayers' rookie season was a disappointment. So I'm guessing McDaniels doesn't go to that particular well again this year.

Both the Broncos' needs and McDaniels' frustrations about them were pretty obvious during last year's second-half slide. They couldn't run the ball, and they couldn't stop the run. In football, it doesn't get more basic than that.

McClain helps with the latter, Pouncey with the former. They both fill not merely needs, but vacancies. The Broncos should come away from the draft's first night with one or the other.

Dave Krieger: 303-954-5297, dkrieger@denverpost.com or twitter.com/DaveKrieger

[Ziggy]

Let the Giants take McClain and we'll take thier 3rd, and Spoon at 15.

[Grover]

I haven't checked the chart, so I don't know if it's fair value; but I'm thinking we take McClain at #11, and then trade back into the first round by giving up one of our 2nd's and perhaps a 3rd, and taking Pouncey as well.

[Ziggy]

I haven't checked the chart, so I don't know if it's fair value; but I'm thinking we take McClain at #11, and then trade back into the first round by giving up one of our 2nd's and perhaps a 3rd, and taking Iupati as well.

The value fits for a trade like that Grover, but I'm not sure if the Broncos would take 2 first rounders this year.

[sneakers]

I want Pouncey (and not just because of his last name).

[xzn]

I've been on the record for a month now that Mc Clain is the pick.

I don't think I've seen as much as ONE mock that has him gone before #11.

He's one of the safest picks in this draft imo . . . total "Plug and Play" guy who would become the heart and soul of the team the day Dawkins retires.

All that said, I'd be happy with a trade back scenario. Moving back to 20 would get us about the 52 overall.

Pouncey + Spikes > Mc Clain

But if we stay at 11 I want the rock-ribbed defender with fire in his eyes, not the diva WR...

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I haven't checked the chart, so I don't know if it's fair value; but I'm thinking we take McClain at #11, and then trade back into the first round by giving up one of our 2nd's and perhaps a 3rd, and taking Pouncey as well.

Going by the chart, the difference between 11 and 15 is 200 pts...or a mid 3rd rounder.

Sounds like a perfect deal...unless they wanna toss us a WR and a 6th instead.

[turftoad]

I've been on the record for a month now that Mc Clain is the pick.

I don't think I've seen as much as ONE mock that has him gone before #11.

He's one of the safest picks in this draft imo . . . total "Plug and Play" guy who would become the heart and soul of the team the day Dawkins retires.

All that said, I'd be happy with a trade back scenario. Moving back to 20 would get us about the 52 overall.

Pouncey + Spikes > Mc Clain

But if we stay at 11 I want the rock-ribbed defender with fire in his eyes, not the diva WR...

My thoughts exactly. :beer:

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Pouncey + Spikes > Mc Clain

...

Or Watherspoon and Ducasse/Asamoah

[topscribe]

I've been on the record for a month now that Mc Clain is the pick.

I don't think I've seen as much as ONE mock that has him gone before #11.

He's one of the safest picks in this draft imo . . . total "Plug and Play" guy who would become the heart and soul of the team the day Dawkins retires.

All that said, I'd be happy with a trade back scenario. Moving back to 20 would get us about the 52 overall.

Pouncey + Spikes > Mc Clain

But if we stay at 11 I want the rock-ribbed defender with fire in his eyes, not the diva WR...

Hard to argue with that. Insert a guy like McClain, and I see a top 5 defense . . .

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[turftoad]

Hard to argue with that. Insert a guy like McClain, and I see a top 5 defense . . .

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Because one guy makes a top 5 defense.

[underrated29]

I do not want pouncey!!!!!!!

The difference between him and olsen and walton is almost nil. Pouncey this year is not even as good as mack from last year and mack went at the end of the first.

Get mclain, Get Dez, Get spoon, Get williams either at 11 or with a trade back. Gain the picks and take olsen or walton in the 2/3 rounds.



Problem with trading back and trying to get Dez, is Sea will take dez at 14 if still there.

[T.K.O.]

Because one guy makes a top 5 defense.

i'm pretty sure the broncos would put 11 guys on the field.....not 1:laugh:
and we have already beefed up the D before the draft.
play nice:tsk:

[T.K.O.]

we can draft mcclain throw sheffler and our 3rd at somebody and have 3 picks in the 2nd:elefant::defense::elefant:
and pouncey may just be "the player" that falls to one of those spots....someone always does and C's dont go in the 1st.....right? (fingers crossed)

[broncobryce]

Remember how bad our D dropped off once Al Wilson left? Ray Lewis always fields a great defense, partly because he will bite your head off if you don't play hard, smart, and tough. Just like Al Wilson. And if we draft him, hopefully like Mclain.

[Lancane]

My question is why take McClain when this is one of the best linebacker classes in modern memory? A lot of those who are said to be outside linebackers can move inside just as easily, such as Sean Weatherspoon.

1. Rolando McClain - Alabama
2. Jason Pierre-Paul - South Florida
3. Sean Weatherspoon - Missouri
4. Sergio Kindle - Texas
5. Jerry Hughes - Texas Christian
6. Daryl Washington - Texas Christian
7. Koa Misi - Utah
8. Jason Worilds - Virginia Tech
9. Navorro Bowman - Penn State

10. Jamar Chaney - Mississippi State
11. Thaddeus Gibson - Ohio State
12. Ricky Sapp - Clemson
13. Dekoda Watson - Florida State
14. Brandon Spikes - Florida
15. A.J. Edds - Iowa
16. Pat Angerer - Iowa
17. Sean Lee - Penn State
18. Eric Norwood - South Carolina
19. George Selvie - South Florida
20. Donald Butler - Washington

21. Phillip Dillard - Nebraska
22. Roddrick Muckelroy - Texas
23. Perry Riley - LSU
24. Rennie Curran - Georgia
25. Cameron Sheffield - Troy
26. Travis Goethel - Arizona
27. Kavell Connor - Clemson
28. Stevenson Sylvester - Utah
29. Brandon Sharpe - Texas Tech
30. Antonio Coleman - Auburn

And the list goes on...

I don't see McClain as the best value or best player available when there is this sort of talent in the linebacker class.

Take Antonio Coleman from Auburn for example, he's an All SEC First Teamer, who in three seasons as a starter has 34.5 sacks and 45.5 tackles for a loss. Sounds like a pretty good talent to me, even though he's 6-1, 248lbs. he's considered to be a rush linebacker in the 3-4, when his size indicates he could play outside or inside. Look at Joe Pawalek from Baylor, one of the most productive linebackers in the Big XII he's slated to be a sixth or seventh round pick. This is a deep linebacker class, and while I like McClain the class IMHO is too good to take one early with the other needs we have.

[Lonestar]

My question is why take McClain when this is one of the best linebacker classes in modern memory? A lot of those who are said to be outside linebackers can move inside just as easily, such as Sean Weatherspoon.

1. Rolando McClain - Alabama
2. Jason Pierre-Paul - South Florida
3. Sean Weatherspoon - Missouri
4. Sergio Kindle - Texas
5. Jerry Hughes - Texas Christian
6. Daryl Washington - Texas Christian
7. Koa Misi - Utah
8. Jason Worilds - Virginia Tech
9. Navorro Bowman - Penn State

10. Jamar Chaney - Mississippi State
11. Thaddeus Gibson - Ohio State
12. Ricky Sapp - Clemson
13. Dekoda Watson - Florida State
14. Brandon Spikes - Florida
15. A.J. Edds - Iowa
16. Pat Angerer - Iowa
17. Sean Lee - Penn State
18. Eric Norwood - South Carolina
19. George Selvie - South Florida
20. Donald Butler - Washington

21. Phillip Dillard - Nebraska
22. Roddrick Muckelroy - Texas
23. Perry Riley - LSU
24. Rennie Curran - Georgia
25. Cameron Sheffield - Troy
26. Travis Goethel - Arizona
27. Kavell Connor - Clemson
28. Stevenson Sylvester - Utah
29. Brandon Sharpe - Texas Tech
30. Antonio Coleman - Auburn

And the list goes on...

I don't see McClain as the best value or best player available when there is this sort of talent in the linebacker class.

Take Antonio Coleman from Auburn for example, he's an All SEC First Teamer, who in three seasons as a starter has 34.5 sacks and 45.5 tackles for a loss. Sounds like a pretty good talent to me, even though he's 6-1, 248lbs. he's considered to be a rush linebacker in the 3-4, when his size indicates he could play outside or inside. Look at Joe Pawalek from Baylor, one of the most productive linebackers in the Big XII he's slated to be a sixth or seventh round pick. This is a deep linebacker class, and while I like McClain the class IMHO is too good to take one early with the other needs we have.


I agree not wanting mc clan at 11 myself, BUT if he can be an on the field coach then MAYBE.

I will always hope for LOS players UNTIL we get that area shored up. and then maybe even every other year to have one on the shelf if someone gets a big head and wants ridicules money.(seymor)

I have been an advocate of the NE style of Player personnel for a long time about the same time I got disenfranchised with mikes DAFTING. c


The players that cost you the least down the road (over a 4-5 year contract) are the non skill players LOS Excepting NT and OLT.

Fix that are and everything else gets easier IMHO. the QB have a bit more time to make decisions the WR have more time to run routes and the RB have holes instead of cracks of daylight.

Third and short is not just a (Hail Mary) hope but more of a sure thing. Scoring in the Red Zone is easier and less FG's.

On the other side of the LOS the QB's have less time to survey the field (in some cases have a star bucks), have to make decisions faster and are more likely to put one up for grabs, the WR have less time to run routes and get open, RB have cracks not hole you can drive a M1A1 through. and the LB's and Db are free to play defense of something past the LOS. CB's are not one of the highest tacklers on the field stopping the run. Safeties can rule their area and strike fear into any one that come in their domain.

Fix the LOS folks and everyone else looks and performs better.

[Lancane]

I agree not wanting mc clan at 11 myself, BUT if he can be an on the field coach then MAYBE.

I will always hope for LOS players UNTIL we get that area shored up. and then maybe even every other year to have one on the shelf if someone gets a big head and wants ridicules money.(seymor)

I have been an advocate of the NE style of Player personnel for a long time about the same time I got disenfranchised with mikes DAFTING. c


The players that cost you the least down the road (over a 4-5 year contract) are the non skill players LOS Excepting NT and OLT.

Fix that are and everything else gets easier IMHO. the QB have a bit more time to make decisions the WR have more time to run routes and the RB have holes instead of cracks of daylight.

Third and short is not just a (Hail Mary) hope but more of a sure thing. Scoring in the Red Zone is easier and less FG's.

On the other side of the LOS the QB's have less time to survey the field (in some cases have a star bucks), have to make decisions faster and are more likely to put one up for grabs, the WR have less time to run routes and get open, RB have cracks not hole you can drive a M1A1 through. and the LB's and Db are free to play defense of something past the LOS. CB's are not one of the highest tacklers on the field stopping the run. Safeties can rule their area and strike fear into any one that come in their domain.

Fix the LOS folks and everyone else looks and performs better.

I'm all for fixing the line of scrimmage as long as you take care of other needs as well. Hell, I have Denver taking three offensive lineman in my mock draft and a defensive end.

The thing to me is that to be competitive this year we need offensive line, wide receiver and linebacker help above all else. So why not use that first pick on the consensus number one receiver in the draft and use all the other picks to fix the LOS on both sides as well as add linebacker help and depth?

[atwater27]

I agree not wanting mc clan at 11 myself, BUT if he can be an on the field coach then MAYBE.

I will always hope for LOS players UNTIL we get that area shored up. and then maybe even every other year to have one on the shelf if someone gets a big head and wants ridicules money.(seymor)

I have been an advocate of the NE style of Player personnel for a long time about the same time I got disenfranchised with mikes DAFTING. c


The players that cost you the least down the road (over a 4-5 year contract) are the non skill players LOS Excepting NT and OLT.

Fix that are and everything else gets easier IMHO. the QB have a bit more time to make decisions the WR have more time to run routes and the RB have holes instead of cracks of daylight.

Third and short is not just a (Hail Mary) hope but more of a sure thing. Scoring in the Red Zone is easier and less FG's.

On the other side of the LOS the QB's have less time to survey the field (in some cases have a star bucks), have to make decisions faster and are more likely to put one up for grabs, the WR have less time to run routes and get open, RB have cracks not hole you can drive a M1A1 through. and the LB's and Db are free to play defense of something past the LOS. CB's are not one of the highest tacklers on the field stopping the run. Safeties can rule their area and strike fear into any one that come in their domain.

Fix the LOS folks and everyone else looks and performs better.

I agree except for 1 thing.... you are assuming that the NE style of personell is something that wasn't just Bill B's genius. Bill would have never pulled the trigger on Knowshawn. And he would have had nothing to do with the wacky ass trade to select a nickel corner with essentially a first rounder.
I pray McDaniels and his 33 year old wisdom has learned a lesson. Fix the lines first.

[topscribe]

I agree except for 1 thing.... you are assuming that the NE style of personell is something that wasn't just Bill B's genius. Bill would have never pulled the trigger on Knowshawn. And he would have had nothing to do with the wacky ass trade to select a nickel corner with essentially a first rounder.
I pray McDaniels and his 33 year old wisdom has learned a lesson. Fix the lines first.

Remember Laurence Maroney?

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[Lonestar]

I'm all for fixing the line of scrimmage as long as you take care of other needs as well. Hell, I have Denver taking three offensive lineman in my mock draft and a defensive end.

The thing to me is that to be competitive this year we need offensive line, wide receiver and linebacker help above all else. So why not use that first pick on the consensus number one receiver in the draft and use all the other picks to fix the LOS on both sides as well as add linebacker help and depth?


We do not have to have a GREAT WR to win most of the marbles and frankly most WR are worthless as a tit on a boar the first couple of years.

Whereas top flight OG and centers can step in and make a difference in a heartbeat.

I consider the front 7 on D the LOS players especially in a 3-4 as in most purposes they all play it except for perhaps one of the ILB's.


I saw your point on the LB's we do not have to have one day one but maybe one of the 2nd's if someone is special there. definitely early on day three.

I'm just guessing that if Weatherspoon is there in the second he is ours, I think We are going after Tebow day two and Dan Williams at 11 or shortly thereafter if we can move back a bit.

I just watched the second part of his tape on the predraft presser. He was impressed with all three of these kids.

[underrated29]

Whereas top flight OG and centers can step in and make a difference in a heartbeat.

.



Problem is this draft does not have any TOP flight OG/C...Iupati might be the closest at OG....Pouncey is not TOP FLIGHT! He is just the leader of a weak crop of C, even in this amazingly deep draft.

So there is no need to waste a perfectly good #1 on a player that is normally a second round grade.

[topscribe]

We do not have to have a GREAT WR to win most of the marbles and frankly most WR are worthless as a tit on a boar the first couple of years.

Whereas top flight OG and centers can step in and make a difference in a heartbeat.

I consider the front 7 on D the LOS players especially in a 3-4 as in most purposes they all play it except for perhaps one of the ILB's.


I saw your point on the LB's we do not have to have one day one but maybe one of the 2nd's if someone is special there. definitely early on day three.

I'm just guessing that if Weatherspoon is there in the second he is ours, I think We are going after Tebow day two and Dan Williams at 11 or shortly thereafter if we can move back a bit.

I just watched the second part of his tape on the predraft presser. He was impressed with all three of these kids.

Anyone who says the Broncos did not lose games in the trenches was not
watching. Repeatedly, especially in the second half of the season, their
defensive line was shredded and the offensive line was blown up both in the
pass rush and running game. Not even the "Beast" could overcome that 2-8
finish last season.

I was tempted for a while to covet Dez Bryant. And I would still love to have
him. But not at the expense of the lines.

I've come to my senses. Just build the trenches. I watched fabulous stars such
as Floyd Little and Lionel Taylor go through nearly their entire careers on
doormat teams. And now recently I watched the magnificently gifted Marshall
lose with the Broncos. Why? The lines were a bunch of glorified matadores.

Give me McClain, Pouncey, Iupati, Bulaga, Williams - somebody. Just build the
trenches.

IMHO.

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[Lonestar]

I agree except for 1 thing.... you are assuming that the NE style of personell is something that wasn't just Bill B's genius. Bill would have never pulled the trigger on Knowshawn. And he would have had nothing to do with the wacky ass trade to select a nickel corner with essentially a first rounder.
I pray McDaniels and his 33 year old wisdom has learned a lesson. Fix the lines first.



I truly believe that Josh was told by one and all that dennison could teach up the OLINE to PBS.

The oline was very highly thought of by everyone in the NFL. So it was not much of a leap of faith that it could be done.

Therefore a"difference" maker in Moreno was a key guy in making everyone better, only to find out that the OLG was not worth a crap in PBS and in Pass protect he was not much better. Then Casey showed his ineptness in the PBS but did reasonable job at PP.

When Harris went down the season was pretty much done IMHO. Why he did not use Hillis later int eh season is beyond me.

As for the corner move who knows perhaps he was told he would be a great player by our scouts and was worth the move.

Bill made some grievous errors in his drafting also, but then excepting one draft in DEN so did mike and frankly after all the departure of that daft class one could say other the draft picks we get out of it was it all that great.


I think the short prep time, getting the staff on board (coaches) took a lot of time away from being at the top of their game last year.

I can see where having the scouts looking for X players all year and then be told that we now wanted Y players. the confusion that ensued did nothing to help.

If he blows it this year then I will also be concerned.

[Lonestar]

Problem is this draft does not have any TOP flight OG/C...Iupati might be the closest at OG....Pouncey is not TOP FLIGHT! He is just the leader of a weak crop of C, even in this amazingly deep draft.

So there is no need to waste a perfectly good #1 on a player that is normally a second round grade.


How can you say it is a weak class on the oline no one I have seen says anything but it is deep.

As for "wasting" a pick, if you have a premier OG and/or center for the next 12 years how can you possibly think it is a waste.

Most of the sexy picks (SKILL) are gone after 4-6 years but the LOS players are there for almost every they are nay good.


WE ARE TO GET A FRANCHISE QB IN THIS DRAFT UNLESS TEBOW FALLS TO US IN THE SECOND.

WR or RB's are a dime a dozen.

[Lonestar]

Anyone who says the Broncos did not lose games in the trenches was not
watching. Repeatedly, especially in the second half of the season, their
defensive line was shredded and the offensive line was blown up both in the
pass rush and running game. Not even the "Beast" could overcome that 2-8
finish last season.

I was tempted for a while to covet Dez Bryant. And I would still love to have
him. But not at the expense of the lines.

I've come to my senses. Just build the trenches. I watched fabulous stars such
as Floyd Little and Lionel Taylor go through nearly their entire careers on
doormat teams. And now recently I watched the magnificently gifted Marshall
lose with the Broncos. Why? The lines were a bunch of glorified matadores.

Give me McClain, Pouncey, Iupati, Bulaga, Williams - somebody. Just build the
trenches.

IMHO.

-----

Not even sure on Mc Clain but Dan WIlliams I think will be stud for years. may not play a bunch this coming year but would give the BIG GUY and breather and learn from one of the best.

Iupati is a stud Pouncey or the next guy at at center will make this a LOS team that will make those behind them Sooooooooo much better.

[atwater27]

Remember Laurence Maroney?

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That was a late 1st selection, and we can all see how it worked out.

[topscribe]

That was a late 1st selection, and we can all see how it worked out.

Yes, 1st round. Kind of pedestrian for a Belichick 1st rounder, isn't he?

And we have yet to see how Moreno will work out. He's been there one calendar year . . .

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[Lonestar]

That was a late 1st selection, and we can all see how it worked out.
It was A gross deviation from what they consistently do. Pound the LOS.

[topscribe]

Because one guy makes a top 5 defense.

Right, Turf. He's going to be out on the field by himself, isn't he? :rolleyes:

Were you around when Al Wilson was?

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[Lancane]

We do not have to have a GREAT WR to win most of the marbles and frankly most WR are worthless as a tit on a boar the first couple of years.

Whereas top flight OG and centers can step in and make a difference in a heartbeat.

I consider the front 7 on D the LOS players especially in a 3-4 as in most purposes they all play it except for perhaps one of the ILB's.


I saw your point on the LB's we do not have to have one day one but maybe one of the 2nd's if someone is special there. definitely early on day three.

I'm just guessing that if Weatherspoon is there in the second he is ours, I think We are going after Tebow day two and Dan Williams at 11 or shortly thereafter if we can move back a bit.

I just watched the second part of his tape on the predraft presser. He was impressed with all three of these kids.

So you're telling me that McDaniels' plan or in your opinion or as you hope is to forgo the receiver position, even though Royal is a relative unknown at this point, Gaffney is questionable even as a number two, Lloyd is as always fodder and Stokely are good enough for the year?

So let's just say, for arguments sake we go that route, Dan Williams would contribute in rotation only especially considering we just gave a ton of money to Jamal Williams, Tebow has to sit a year or two and we get a lineman thrown into the mix, Ducasse or someone else. Or say that we go Williams, Ducasse and Walton with our three first picks or something akin to that.

While Orton or whomever is at the quarterback has the time to be patient and throw, where does he throw? The chances of a mediocre wide receiver being able to shed a top shelf corner is bad enough, so we have to throw short, with no real threat the defenses will play closer and closer to the line, so we have a fairly porous passing game, with them playing up close the run game could be hampered as well. Orton or Quinn may not get hit, but they sure in the hell are not going to be a factor in us winning games in that situation either. This is part of the reason that having a wide receiver that can get high or can demand double coverage can only help a team.

At such a point we have to place our faith in our defense, let's hope they become one of the best in the league at points allowed, because then it will be on the team who is likely to score or score the most if it's a defensive showcase.

In 2009 the top defense were:

1. New York (Jets)
2. Green Bay
3. Baltimore
4. Cincinnati
5. Pittsburgh
6. Minnesota
7. Denver
8. Carolina
9. Dallas
10. Washington
11. New England

Of those above; Dallas, New England, Minnesota, Green Bay and Pittsburgh had top ten offensive units. Baltimore's offense was even ranked better then Denver's. So let's scratch the production of Marshall, then it's fair to guess that our offense would have been around 20 something...that's even worse then the rest of the above mentioned teams on that side of the ball. If we can't score, then we can not win. Do you really think that Bowlen would sit back and take it if we had say a 5-11 season?

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this Jr., with the moves he's made I don't think McDaniels can afford to have a losing season.

[topscribe]

So you're telling me that McDaniels' plan or in your opinion or as you hope is to forgo the receiver position, even though Royal is a relative unknown at this point, Gaffney is questionable even as a number two, Lloyd is as always fodder and Stokely are good enough for the year?

So let's just say, for arguments sake we go that route, Dan Williams would contribute in rotation only especially considering we just gave a ton of money to Jamal Williams, Tebow has to sit a year or two and we get a lineman thrown into the mix, Ducasse or someone else. Or say that we go Williams, Ducasse and Walton with our three first picks or something akin to that.

While Orton or whomever is at the quarterback has the time to be patient and throw, where does he throw? The chances of a mediocre wide receiver being able to shed a top shelf corner is bad enough, so we have to throw short, with no real threat the defenses will play closer and closer to the line, so we have a fairly porous passing game, with them playing up close the run game could be hampered as well. Orton or Quinn may not get hit, but they sure in the hell are not going to be a factor in us winning games in that situation either. This is part of the reason that having a wide receiver that can get high or can demand double coverage can only help a team.

At such a point we have to place our faith in our defense, let's hope they become one of the best in the league at points allowed, because then it will be on the team who is likely to score or score the most if it's a defensive showcase.

In 2009 the top defense were:

1. New York (Jets)
2. Green Bay
3. Baltimore
4. Cincinnati
5. Pittsburgh
6. Minnesota
7. Denver
8. Carolina
9. Dallas
10. Washington
11. New England

Of those above; Dallas, New England, Minnesota, Green Bay and Pittsburgh had top ten offensive units. Baltimore's offense was even ranked better then Denver's. So let's scratch the production of Marshall, then it's fair to guess that our offense would have been around 20 something...that's even worse then the rest of the above mentioned teams on that side of the ball. If we can't score, then we can not win. Do you really think that Bowlen would sit back and take it if we had say a 5-11 season?

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this Jr., with the moves he's made I don't think McDaniels can afford to have a losing season.

Actually, as it turns out, the defenses didn't play all that close to the line
against the Broncos, especially in the second half of the season. They found
they didn't have to respect the running game all that much because the Broncos
were getting blown up in the trenches, so they played mostly seven in the box,
keeping their safeties back. Both McDaniels and Orton said more than once that
the safeties were playing deep.

And I don't believe Royal is an unknown. His 91 receptions as a rookie showed
what he can do. His skills haven't deteriorated since then. Moreover, Gaffney
showed he can go deep against Cleveland, San Diego, NYG, and twice in the
final KC game.

Not that Gaffney is Marshall, but I don't remember Marshall receiving downfield
all that often. Marshall is not a deep receiver. Gaffney has already proven he
can be.

And then there is McKinley, who is known for his deep game, waiting in the
wings. Yes, he still has some proving to do. But I don't believe the Broncos are
as desperate as you seem to feel in that area.

-----

[Lonestar]

So you're telling me that McDaniels' plan or in your opinion or as you hope is to forgo the receiver position, even though Royal is a relative unknown at this point, Gaffney is questionable even as a number two, Lloyd is as always fodder and Stokely are good enough for the year?

So let's just say, for arguments sake we go that route, Dan Williams would contribute in rotation only especially considering we just gave a ton of money to Jamal Williams, Tebow has to sit a year or two and we get a lineman thrown into the mix, Ducasse or someone else. Or say that we go Williams, Ducasse and Walton with our three first picks or something akin to that.

While Orton or whomever is at the quarterback has the time to be patient and throw, where does he throw? The chances of a mediocre wide receiver being able to shed a top shelf corner is bad enough, so we have to throw short, with no real threat the defenses will play closer and closer to the line, so we have a fairly porous passing game, with them playing up close the run game could be hampered as well. Orton or Quinn may not get hit, but they sure in the hell are not going to be a factor in us winning games in that situation either. This is part of the reason that having a wide receiver that can get high or can demand double coverage can only help a team.

At such a point we have to place our faith in our defense, let's hope they become one of the best in the league at points allowed, because then it will be on the team who is likely to score or score the most if it's a defensive showcase.

In 2009 the top defense were:

1. New York (Jets)
2. Green Bay
3. Baltimore
4. Cincinnati
5. Pittsburgh
6. Minnesota
7. Denver
8. Carolina
9. Dallas
10. Washington
11. New England

Of those above; Dallas, New England, Minnesota, Green Bay and Pittsburgh had top ten offensive units. Baltimore's offense was even ranked better then Denver's. So let's scratch the production of Marshall, then it's fair to guess that our offense would have been around 20 something...that's even worse then the rest of the above mentioned teams on that side of the ball. If we can't score, then we can not win. Do you really think that Bowlen would sit back and take it if we had say a 5-11 season?

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this Jr., with the moves he's made I don't think McDaniels can afford to have a losing season.

Yo have valid points but seldom does a WR burst onto the scene and make a huge difference. you can count them on two hands over the past decade. and then most of those were not number 1 picks they were seconds or less.

If our QB whoever that may be has more time to make a decision or the WR have that extra time to get a stepfather making a move or TWo then our passing game will not be any worse than what we had last year.

IF our Oline can PBS instead of pbs then our RBs, who are not chopped liver should be albe to keep the changes moving and BTW when the run games become viable then the passing games gets better also. Because they have to respect the Running game.

Please tell me how that does not help the team longer term. There are many WR that can come later in the draft and probably be as much an impact as dez could have this next year. IIRC Bm was a forth rounder and did not turn out so bad.

If it were up to me I'd never draft another WR againand go with only picking up FA and UDFA as they have been the stable oft WR core for almost a decade now. WR are IMO the biggest hit and miss there is in the NFL.

That is how I see it and while having stud WR is nice it is not the end all to this teams issues.

[Lonestar]

Actually, as it turns out, the defenses didn't play all that close to the line
against the Broncos, especially in the second half of the season. They found
they didn't have to respect the running game all that much because the Broncos
were getting blown up in the trenches, so they played mostly seven in the box,
keeping their safeties back. Both McDaniels and Orton said more than once that
the safeties were playing deep.

And I don't believe Royal is an unknown. His 91 receptions as a rookie showed
what he can do. His skills haven't deteriorated since then. Moreover, Gaffney
showed he can go deep against Cleveland, San Diego, NYG, and twice in the
final KC game.

Not that Gaffney is Marshall, but I don't remember Marshall receiving downfield
all that often. Marshall is not a deep receiver. Gaffney has already proven he
can be.

And then there is McKinley, who is known for his deep game, waiting in the
wings. Yes, he still has some proving to do. But I don't believe the Broncos are
as desperate as you seem to feel in that area.

----- You seemed to have summed it up quite well.

[Lancane]

Actually, as it turns out, the defenses didn't play all that close to the line
against the Broncos, especially in the second half of the season. They found
they didn't have to respect the running game all that much because the Broncos
were getting blown up in the trenches, so they played mostly seven in the box,
keeping their safeties back. Both McDaniels and Orton said more than once that
the safeties were playing deep.

And I don't believe Royal is an unknown. His 91 receptions as a rookie showed
what he can do. His skills haven't deteriorated since then. Moreover, Gaffney
showed he can go deep against Cleveland, San Diego, NYG, and twice in the
final KC game.

Not that Gaffney is Marshall, but I don't remember Marshall receiving downfield
all that often. Marshall is not a deep receiver. Gaffney has already proven he
can be.

And then there is McKinley, who is known for his deep game, waiting in the
wings. Yes, he still has some proving to do. But I don't believe the Broncos are
as desperate as you seem to feel in that area.

-----

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the line should be ignored one bit nor that our run game doesn't need to improve. But I don't see the promise you see in the receivers on the roster.

Royal does need to prove himself, he could not even beat out Gaffney to remain the number two receiver...Gaffney has continued to be mediocre, and his career has been much the same. Look we can continue to argue about him as we have, I get it. And you're primarily basing an argument on one year of solid production with both wideouts...'Remember Ashlie Lelie'?

Yes, we drafted McKinley in the fifth round last year, someone that has continually been hampered by injuries throughout his collegiate career; someone that suited up for eight games and had zero catches despite being suited up. And I'm not like Jr. or you, I don't have blind faith...call it a shortcoming if you will. But a receiving corps. of career busts and unknowns is not the best route to producing a legit offensive unit.

Even if I'm wrong about Bryant being the pick, I hope we pick up someone like Gilyard or Easley, if not both. Hell, I would feel a bit better if we traded a pick for Mark Clayton from Baltimore. But there are more questions then answers on the offensive side of the ball, that includes at wide receiver. My original mock draft did not have us taking a receiver till the third round...

[Lonestar]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the line should be ignored one bit nor that our run game doesn't need to improve. But I don't see the promise you see in the receivers on the roster.

Royal does need to prove himself, he could not even beat out Gaffney to remain the number two receiver...Gaffney has continued to be mediocre, and his career has been much the same. Look we can continue to argue about him as we have, I get it. And you're primarily basing an argument on one year of solid production with both wideouts...'Remember Ashlie Lelie'?

Yes, we drafted McKinley in the fifth round last year, someone that has continually been hampered by injuries throughout his collegiate career; someone that suited up for eight games and had zero catches despite being suited up. And I'm not like Jr. or you, I don't have blind faith...call it a shortcoming if you will. But a receiving corps. of career busts and unknowns is not the best route to producing a legit offensive unit.

Even if I'm wrong about Bryant being the pick, I hope we pick up someone like Gilyard or Easley, if not both. Hell, I would feel a bit better if we traded a pick for Mark Clayton from Baltimore. But there are more questions then answers on the offensive side of the ball, that includes at wide receiver. My original mock draft did not have us taking a receiver till the third round...



YES I remember ashley well a total bust at WR if he had to catch a ball between the hash marks or could not make a circus catch so he could flop to the earth and not be tackled.

HE is my poster child for not taking WR in the first.

I do not have blind faith about Josh nor did I with mike.

Ido have blind trust that improving the LOS play on each side of the ball will make HUGE improvements to everyone else on the team.

I'm not convinced that ANY WR is worth taking in the draft. If they are that good that they can't fail then they are usually a head case and do not work out more than a few years anyway. Yes Larry Fitz is a GREAT WR but he is an anomaly for that position. IMO we need to FA those spots if you think those other WR are going to be good by all means draft them some where other than day one or two.

[topscribe]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the line should be ignored one bit nor that our run game doesn't need to improve. But I don't see the promise you see in the receivers on the roster.

Royal does need to prove himself, he could not even beat out Gaffney to remain the number two receiver...Gaffney has continued to be mediocre, and his career has been much the same. Look we can continue to argue about him as we have, I get it. And you're primarily basing an argument on one year of solid production with both wideouts...'Remember Ashlie Lelie'?

Yes, we drafted McKinley in the fifth round last year, someone that has continually been hampered by injuries throughout his collegiate career; someone that suited up for eight games and had zero catches despite being suited up. And I'm not like Jr. or you, I don't have blind faith...call it a shortcoming if you will. But a receiving corps. of career busts and unknowns is not the best route to producing a legit offensive unit.

Even if I'm wrong about Bryant being the pick, I hope we pick up someone like Gilyard or Easley, if not both. Hell, I would feel a bit better if we traded a pick for Mark Clayton from Baltimore. But there are more questions then answers on the offensive side of the ball, that includes at wide receiver. My original mock draft did not have us taking a receiver till the third round...

I really don't understand your Ashlie Lelie analogy. One of Gaffney's strengths
is his toughness over the middle. Lelie avoided the middle like a den of snakes.
Gaffney blocks. Lelie thought a block was something high school kids drive
around on Saturday night. Gaffney is a team person who plays when and
where he was told. Lelie thought he should be gifted #1 . . . forget earning it.

Frankly, I'm disappointed Gaffney was not played more this last year. When he
was given the chance, he dominated defenders . . .witness Philly, NE, KC.

Do the Broncos need a receiver? Without a doubt. Do they need one worse
than a center or guard? That's where doubt enters in.

Again, I watched Lionel Taylor, Floyd Little, Otis Armstrong, Al Denson. I saw
their heroics and sometimes jaw-dropping plays. I also suffered with them,
year after year, with their losses because the lines just blew.

And, as I mentioned, the Broncos last year were 8-8, Marshall and all. The
previous year, they were 8-8, Marshall and all. And again, it was because of the
lines.

Give Orton time and the RB blocking, and be decent in run defense, and the
Broncos will win. Don't do that, and they won't. That's what I am looking at . . .

-----

[Lancane]

YES I remember ashley well a total bust at WR if he had to catch a ball between the hash marks or could not make a circus catch so he could flop to the earth and not be tackled.

HE is my poster child for not taking WR in the first.

I do not have blind faith about Josh nor did I with mike.

Ido have blind trust that improving the LOS play on each side of the ball will make HUGE improvements to everyone else on the team.

I'm not convinced that ANY WR is worth taking in the draft. If they are that good that they can't fail then they are usually a head case and do not work out more than a few years anyway. Yes Larry Fitz is a GREAT WR but he is an anomaly for that position. IMO we need to FA those spots if you think those other WR are going to be good by all means draft them some where other than day one or two.

I get what you're saying and you make some valid points...I just don't think we can succeed with McDaniels as the head coach if we don't have some great or elite talent, especially at receiver and his track record speaks as much.

[Lonestar]

I get what you're saying and you make some valid points...I just don't think we can succeed with McDaniels as the head coach if we don't have some great or elite talent, especially at receiver and his track record speaks as much.

I disagree and on that will have to agree to do so.

For that matter mike could not win consistently without elite players. Having a WR that is great makes no sense if the QB does not have the time to throw to him.

the WR is not going to be a game breaker but a Running game combined with time to pass will win a hell of a lot more games. IMHO

Yes we many win a few games with an elite WR but we will be more consistent with a PBS and a running game as they can always doulbe or triple a WR but it is hard to do that with a great OLINE kicking ass for the running game.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

I want McClain.

McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain,

[atwater27]

I want McClain.

McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain, McClain,

But we have needs. WR, G, C, DE, NT, ILB, S in that order. There is enough ILB depth in this draft to pick up a decent one later. We need to trade down. We simply have too many needs.

[topscribe]

But we have needs. WR, G, C, DE, NT, ILB, S in that order. There is enough ILB depth in this draft to pick up a decent one later. We need to trade down. We simply have too many needs.

If I correctly read McDaniels' comments between the lines in his presser, I picked
up that this is what he would really like to do . . .

-----

[atwater27]

Trading down and adressing those needs would go a long way in building my confidence in Josh.