Broncos now need to reward Dumervil

[BigBroncLove]

Broncos now need to reward Dumervil

Tough to say the world is fair when Brandon Marshall is the highest-paid receiver in the NFL, and Elvis Dumervil is still looking at a well under-market tender.

Marshall held out, made a mockery of training camp, and got himself deactivated in Week 17 when the Broncos were fighting for a playoff spot. All Dumervil did was change positions in a contract year, never complain, work as hard as anyone on the roster as he learned outside linebacker, and led the NFL in sacks. Marshall's lack of professionalism (which, judging by early reports of security guards keeping the Florida media at arm's length from him, is still ongoing) was worth $50 million - $24 million guaranteed - in the contract he signed with the Dolphins after Wednesday's trade. Dumervil (who, incidentally, was the media's pick for the 2009 "Darrent Williams Good Guy Award" for his cooperation) is slated to make a little more than $3.1 million this year on his tender.

Then add the Jay Cutler precedent. Cutler complained until he was traded, too. The Bears gave him a nice contract extension last year. Twitter follower @adammoelis did a pretty good job pointing this out Wednesday. He wrote: "why doesn't dumervil now follow marshall road. mcd has given in and shown players who want something get it?? bad msg to send."

And he's absolutely right. That's why the Broncos have to find a way to reward Dumervil. The message has been sent that complainers will get their way (and, I suppose unfortunately, that they'll be rewarded handsomely by someone else). Josh McDaniels needs to send a positive message now.

He wants players who do the right thing, who buy in, who are team players. Dumervil did all of that.

And, Dumervil probably would have gotten paid already had there not been labor strife. A potential lockout makes any in-house extension difficult. But a good-faith effort by the Broncos isn't just charity. It's letting every other player know, Dumervil is the model of what McDaniels wants.

As it stands, it seems like the best way to get paid in Denver is to punt some balls in practice or generally act out until you get traded, and then get a contract. Especially if there's no incentive in handling yourself as a professional, like Dumervil did in 2009.

A little bit of money to Dumervil could go a long way in the Broncos' locker room.

http://gazettebroncos.freedomblogging.com/2010/04/15/broncos-now-need-to-reward-dumervil/2405/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I don't always agree with Schwabs articles. He writes as many ones that aggravate me as does he ones that show real clarity. I think this is one of the latter rather then the former.

[claymore]

I hope we trade Doom for future 2012 picks.

[Nomad]

I'm all for giving Dumervil a pay raise as long as he doesn't expect Bowlen to break the bank on him!!

[Lancane]

http://gazettebroncos.freedomblogging.com/2010/04/15/broncos-now-need-to-reward-dumervil/2405/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

I don't always agree with Schwabs articles. He writes as many ones that aggravate me as does he ones that show real clarity. I think this is one of the latter rather then the former.

According to NFLN when discussing the possibility of a Marshall trade after he signed his tender, they alluded to that Dumvervil and his agent were having issues with the organization due contract discussions, or the lack there of.

I have a sinking feeling that they are not going to be willing to pay market value for Elvis, and it may lead to a trade unless Dumervil is willing to take a more 'Team' friendly contract. Hopefully they can work it out, it would suck without Doom, but they may not be willing to pay what he's worth because he is a tad one dimensional.

[BigBroncLove]

According to NFLN when discussing the possibility of a Marshall trade after he signed his tender, they alluded to that Dumvervil and his agent were having issues with the organization due contract discussions, or the lack there of.

I have a sinking feeling that they are not going to be willing to pay market value for Elvis, and it may lead to a trade unless Dumervil is willing to take a more 'Team' friendly contract. Hopefully they can work it out, it would suck without Doom, but they may not be willing to pay what he's worth because he is a tad one dimensional.

I caught a little wind of that too. It's not unheard of that Marshall and Dumervil would be in contact since both are in Florida, beyond their ties being drafted the same year. Have to hope it's all hoopla but I am worried that because of the situation all the players are in given the current CBA status the Broncos will be trying to use that to their advantage in any contract negotiations. Dumervil isn't nearly as fluid in coverage and I doubt the staff is blind to it also, but damned if I don't think the kid earned his contract both in play and conduct. The article summarizes my stance pretty clearly. The Broncos don't have to given the current way things are, but if they want to make the right statement about the team they need to reward Dumervil with the contract he earned. To do anything less is sending a double standard for the FO IMO.

I get sort of the same feeling but with plenty of time for things to work out I'm hopeful that something will get hammered and inked. Nice post though lancane :beer:

[Nomad]

Dumervil isn't nearly as fluid in coverage and I doubt the staff is blind to it also, but damned if I don't think the kid earned his contract both in play and conduct.

:

What's he looking for? Everyone has their own opinion of his value. He's an allpro pass rusher and pretty much it, but he is a team player which is what this team is being built on, what's the value in that? We've seen alot of players leave Denver who were solid at their position and deserved contracts before McDaniels and if somehow Dumervil leaves because of it, one common demoninator would lead to Bowlen being a cheap ass! I know people hate to hear that but it is a real possibility this may be the case plus it was recently reported by a fella from the Fan on ESPN!!

[BigBroncLove]

What's he looking for? Everyone has their own opinion of his value. He's an allpro pass rusher and pretty much it, but he is a team player which is what this team is being built on, what's the value in that? We've seen alot of players leave Denver who were solid at their position and deserved contracts before McDaniels and if somehow Dumervil leaves because of it, one common demoninator would lead to Bowlen being a cheap ass! I know people hate to hear that but it is a real possibility this may be the case plus it was recently reported by a fella from the Fan on ESPN!!

I don't think I'm about to blast Bowlen as a cheap skate. He's made questionable decisions but the Broncos were up to the hilt of the cap for years (03 - 06) and were never shy of signing guys in free agency to big contracts. Heck we let Trevor Pryce go (among other things) because the Broncos were over the cap by 11 million and needed to cut fat two weeks before the deadline. They've even payed plenty of money when they were stupid decisions (hello Travis Henry!).

I can't say unequivocally that he isn't cheap, I could be wrong. I don't think any of us are close to Bowlen, and I don't count some guy on the fan as that hard evidence I need to sway my opinion.

One thing is, I think people can start to expect to much from a player making the big transition like Dumervil did in one year. The guy played with at least one hand on the ground moving forward his entire career. Coverage very likely wasn't going to be his strong suit last year. I think he should get at least this year to make further adjustment... at least when it comes to that. As what's the value of signing a team oriented player? If that's what your preaching as an organization you better be willing to back it up. I want to see it backed up... I never said give the man the biggest contract in the world, but he earned a substantial enough one to keep him in Denver. My two cents... just opinion.

[Nomad]

I'm not blasting Bowlen, just an observation. Doesn't mean I want to blame him either but I love my dad to death but the older he gets the more of a cheap skate he gets! I'm just wondering if this is true with Bowlen!

I never said pay Dumervil for his being a team player just responded to your response of his 'play and conduct'. What is Dumervil asking though, has he come up with some outrageous contract that BRONCOS will say hell no too!

[BigBroncLove]

I'm not blasting Bowlen, just an observation. Doesn't mean I want to blame him either but I love my dad to death but the older he gets the more of a cheap skate he gets! I'm just wondering if this is true with Bowlen!

I never said pay Dumervil for his being a team player just responded to your response of his 'play and conduct'. What is Dumervil asking though, has he come up with some outrageous contract that BRONCOS will say hell no too!

Thats more than a fair question about Bowlen. I just don't agree... at least not yet.

See and that's a fair question as well about Dumervil. There's always two sides, and what does Dumervil think he's worth given the inflated contracts that are becoming more and more prevalent in the league? Hoenstly with how tight lipped the organization is now I don't know if we'll ever know until it all plays out. Hopefully they can find a number both agree to cause I'd sure like to see something happen. If it does you just have to hope it doesn't piss off Kuper....

[claymore]

I think the gap between what Doom's agent wants, and what the Broncos feel he is worth is a pretty large gap.

[Nomad]

Thats more than a fair question about Bowlen. I just don't agree... at least not yet.

See and that's a fair question as well about Dumervil. There's always two sides, and what does Dumervil think he's worth given the inflated contracts that are becoming more and more prevalent in the league? Hoenstly with how tight lipped the organization is now I don't know if we'll ever know until it all plays out. Hopefully they can find a number both agree to cause I'd sure like to see something happen. If it does you just have to hope it doesn't piss off Kuper....

Inflated contracts I agree with!! Since when are these players worth this kind of money when it seems most turn their production down than up and IMO if you're consistent over a period of years with all pro play not just a couple of years! Maybe I don't get the business of the NFL. And yes, I could give two shits what these guys make, but the more of a big contract you give to just one player the less you'll get to spread around to other players on the team who have just as much importance.

[CoachChaz]

If Doom wants DeMarcus Ware money and wont budge on that...trade him. At the end of the day, Marshall got WAY more than he is worth and is Doom wants the same...adios.

But either way, I dont see him being signed soon based on the current state of the NFL.

[Nomad]

If Doom wants DeMarcus Ware money and wont budge on that...trade him. At the end of the day, Marshall got WAY more than he is worth and is Doom wants the same...adios.

But either way, I dont see him being signed soon based on the current state of the NFL.

That's why I ask the question, where to these players get they are worth that amount! I could understand if they were in their 7th year and have been giving that kind of production all these years and was a difference maker getting their teams to the postseason and have earned these big paydays, but none of these players have. They expect after a couple of years of expected production to receive big paydays. I'd agree with maybe bonuses but not outrageous guaranteed money that could be spread around to other players as well!!

[CoachChaz]

That's why I ask the question, where to these players get they are worth that amount! I could understand if they were in their 7th year and have been giving that kind of production all these years and was a difference maker getting their teams to the postseason and have earned these big paydays, but none of these players have. They expect after a couple of years of expected production to receive big paydays. I'd agree with maybe bonuses but not outrageous guaranteed money that could be spread around to other players as well!!

I prefer to see a player paid based on performance, but that's just never going to happen. You earn extra based on sack total escalators and tackle escalators, etc. Problem there is that it's easy to add those incentives for someone like Doom. but what about a corner like Champ...or Revis. It's hard to pay a guy like that based on numbers because the better you are at that position...the lower your numbers typically are. Same with OL, etc.

So, it's hard to add performance escalators for one guy and not another and therefore, someone will eventually overpay for a one trick pony like Doom

[Ravage!!!]

He's not paid more than he's worth, if he got paid the money. That makes him worth that amount, to that team. Thats the facts. People can say a team 'over paid' all they want.

I hear a lot of people talking about how the Patriots 'way' is all about team. Then want/expect Doom to lower his price and sign a 'team friendly' contract. Didn't seem the Patriot's own NT was thinking so "team oriented" when he was PISSED about getting the Franchise tag. Didn't seem like the Patriots were/are very team oriented the way they shipped Seymour out the door without him knowing, to the Raiders of all places.

If you want top talent on your team, you have to pay top-talent money. I don't know how come so many of us expect top talent players to simply want to accept lower pay, purely to be on the Broncos. Just doesn't make sense.

[CoachChaz]

He's not paid more than he's worth, if he got paid the money. That makes him worth that amount, to that team. Thats the facts. People can say a team 'over paid' all they want.

I hear a lot of people talking about how the Patriots 'way' is all about team. Then want/expect Doom to lower his price and sign a 'team friendly' contract. Didn't seem the Patriot's own NT was thinking so "team oriented" when he was PISSED about getting the Franchise tag. Didn't seem like the Patriots were/are very team oriented the way they shipped Seymour out the door without him knowing, to the Raiders of all places.

If you want top talent on your team, you have to pay top-talent money. I don't know how come so many of us expect top talent players to simply want to accept lower pay, purely to be on the Broncos. Just doesn't make sense.

Is a guy that can get 17 sacks and do NOTHING else considered "top talent"? I guess that's what it comes down to. I'd rather hand a big contract to a guy that can get 10-12 sacks and still beable to tackle a RB and cover a TE over a guy that gets 17 sacks and nothing else. But that's just my opinion and I dont write the checks.

[Lancane]

He's not paid more than he's worth, if he got paid the money. That makes him worth that amount, to that team. Thats the facts. People can say a team 'over paid' all they want.

I hear a lot of people talking about how the Patriots 'way' is all about team. Then want/expect Doom to lower his price and sign a 'team friendly' contract. Didn't seem the Patriot's own NT was thinking so "team oriented" when he was PISSED about getting the Franchise tag. Didn't seem like the Patriots were/are very team oriented the way they shipped Seymour out the door without him knowing, to the Raiders of all places.

If you want top talent on your team, you have to pay top-talent money. I don't know how come so many of us expect top talent players to simply want to accept lower pay, purely to be on the Broncos. Just doesn't make sense.

Aye, you're absolutely correct Rav. It's surprising that so many feel that these players should feel...I will use Tim Tebow's favorite word - 'Blessed' to play for this team and this organization. While it's documented that many feel that Denver is a class organization, fact still remains that these athletes want to get paid, they expect to be paid and that is the way of the league because at the end of the day it's a grueling career. And while I feel that a 'Team Philosophy' is all good and dandy, the chances of building a team where it's better players are not paid usually falls apart. Rod Smith was well paid, because of such he was willing to renegotiate time and again to help the team (even after he beat his woman) and the same for Elway and others. Sometimes the players will be more team orientated if the team shows them that they are important to the team itself.

[Ravage!!!]

Is a guy that can get 17 sacks and do NOTHING else considered "top talent"? I guess that's what it comes down to. I'd rather hand a big contract to a guy that can get 10-12 sacks and still beable to tackle a RB and cover a TE over a guy that gets 17 sacks and nothing else. But that's just my opinion and I dont write the checks.

I can't say that I disagree with you one bit on this. I've been one that says that I'm not completely sold on Doom. So I know exactly where you are coming from. If we pay him top dollar to be a 'sack specialist'... what happens next year when he gets only 10-12? Now he can't tackle, and isn't something special in the sac department.

[Nomad]

I prefer to see a player paid based on performance, but that's just never going to happen. You earn extra based on sack total escalators and tackle escalators, etc. Problem there is that it's easy to add those incentives for someone like Doom. but what about a corner like Champ...or Revis. It's hard to pay a guy like that based on numbers because the better you are at that position...the lower your numbers typically are. Same with OL, etc.

So, it's hard to add performance escalators for one guy and not another and therefore, someone will eventually overpay for a one trick pony like Doom

I prefer to see players paid based on performance as well and also work their way up the pay scale rather than all at once!! So we can pay other players who overperform at their position!!

[CoachChaz]

I can't say that I disagree with you one bit on this. I've been one that says that I'm not completely sold on Doom. So I know exactly where you are coming from. If we pay him top dollar to be a 'sack specialist'... what happens next year when he gets only 10-12? Now he can't tackle, and isn't something special in the sac department.

That's why I'd like to wait and see what becomes of Ayers before I pay Doom and would like to draft Graham. Like anyone else, i REALLY like Doom, but paying him a ton of money (assuming he's looking for something huge) scares me considering his limitations

[Nomad]

That's why I'd like to wait and see what becomes of Ayers before I pay Doom and would like to draft Graham. Like anyone else, i REALLY like Doom, but paying him a ton of money (assuming he's looking for something huge) scares me considering his limitations

That's an excellent way to put it!! Consistency and improving at their positions in all phases at high levels I believe deserves rewards in the pocketbook, well for their cases multi- bank accounts:D

[Ravage!!!]

Aye, you're absolutely correct Rav. It's surprising that so many feel that these players should feel...I will use Tim Tebow's favorite word - 'Blessed' to play for this team and this organization. While it's documented that many feel that Denver is a class organization, fact still remains that these athletes want to get paid, they expect to be paid and that is the way of the league because at the end of the day it's a grueling career. And while I feel that a 'Team Philosophy' is all good and dandy, the chances of building a team where it's better players are not paid usually falls apart. Rod Smith was well paid, because of such he was willing to renegotiate time and again to help the team (even after he beat his woman) and the same for Elway and others. Sometimes the players will be more team orientated if the team shows them that they are important to the team itself.

Its all about feeling respected. They judge how an organization 'respects' them, buy their pay compared to other pay in the NFL. If you are paying them at the bottom pay scale, they know you view them nothing more than a bottom talent.

Once you pay them well, they CAN renegotiate to help the team, becaues they will still get their money. As Troy Aikman talked about when he renegotiated his contract so that the team could keep some prime players... "We aren't playin Santa Claus." They will get their money, but it will just come in different bonuses, or whatevers that gives the team more cap room.

So you can't expect these guys to forfeit pay out of their pocket simply to be a 'team guy'. They know the Team/organization is looking out for themselves first... so you as a player have to look at for yourself first (financially). Thats just the reality.

[jlarsiii]

I, for one, see a big problem on the horizon for this team if they don't pony up (pun intended) and pay Dume. He has done everything the team has asked of him, kept his mouth shut, showed up and did the work, and never grumbled about the peanuts his original contract was paying him.

He bought into the "team" system and is working hard at learning a new position while still putting up a vital statistic for most teams. . .sacks. Now the team has shipped off malcontents who have been rewarded handsomely by other teams. What do you think will happen if Dume doesn't get a good contract from us? What kind of example will that be for every other player on this team be it current player or future player?

Personally, this could blow up in our faces. If they don't pay up then what incentive will there be for any other players to perform or toe the line? Be a malcontent and get paid elsewhere, or do what your asked and still not get paid?!?!?! That makes no sense. I think it would be hard to attract players here or keep them if they mess this up.

They better get this right, even if Dume might not be worth what he is asking for, because if they don't the precedent set by this current FO will utterly destroy any chance of attracting or retaining talent to this team!

[Ravage!!!]

I prefer to see players paid based on performance as well and also work their way up the pay scale rather than all at once!! So we can pay other players who overperform at their position!!

You aren't going to get that much...at least if you are referring to things like 'performance' bonuses to suppliment pay. Thats like a guy constantly working on commission. That sucks. Thats how you pay salesman. So I don't see where many NFL players (or anyone) that would want that.

[weazel]

I'm just wondering, does anyone know about any dates that change the way the money is divided among the cap years? Or without the CBA is all of that out the window?

I hope I worded that correctly... Basically, are they waiting to talk until after a certain date, so the cap hit is divided into a friendlier way for the team?

[Nomad]

You aren't going to get that much...at least if you are referring to things like 'performance' bonuses to suppliment pay. Thats like a guy constantly working on commission. That sucks. Thats how you pay salesman. So I don't see where many NFL players (or anyone) that would want that.

It's not really what I'm saying, but if you want to interpret that way suit yourself.

Why is it when these guys get paid (not all of them) they seem to take a step backwards, like the notion, "I got paid now I can just coast through my career". It seems to becoming more common. I believe in paying maybe half the outrageous money they're asking (if it's a deal like Marshalls) let him prove his worth then offering him another good contract. I don't believe in breaking the bank on these guys all at once!! But after their first contract extension they suck or have degress then why would you pay him again because he hasn't earned it!! When you can take that money and reward other players on the team for their performance

[Traveler]

Doom is one of the few players we need to keep. PERIOD!

Dude has performed well through all the system changes we've gone through. He's been the loyal soldier and played by the rules.

If the FO tries to screw him over, using the CBA as an excuse, I'll definitely be unhappy.
MIA just paid Marshall a ****load of money. Denver should reward Elvis since it's harder to find great pass rushers than WR's.

We've been complaining for years that we've don't have anyone that could persistent pressure on the QB. We have that in Dumervil. PAY HIM NOW!

[jlarsiii]

I'm just wondering, does anyone know about any dates that change the way the money is divided among the cap years? Or without the CBA is all of that out the window?

I hope I worded that correctly... Basically, are they waiting to talk until after a certain date, so the cap hit is divided into a friendlier way for the team?

I can't answer your question specifically. IMO they are waiting for a new CBA to be in place so they know the working terms for contracts given from this point forward. It could be hard on a team to sign a player to a new, big contract now when depending on how the CBA works out for the future.

It would be hard to give big money now with that potential uncertainty lying just a year down the road.

[Northman]

Im pretty confident they will get Doom signed.

[Traveler]

Im pretty confident they will get Doom signed.

I hope you are right.

[Ravage!!!]

It's not really what I'm saying, but if you want to interpret that way suit yourself.

Why is it when these guys get paid (not all of them) they seem to take a step backwards, like the notion, "I got paid now I can just coast through my career". It seems to becoming more common. I believe in paying maybe half the outrageous money they're asking (if it's a deal like Marshalls) let him prove his worth then offering him another good contract. I don't believe in breaking the bank on these guys all at once!! But after their first contract extension they suck or have degress then why would you pay him again because he hasn't earned it!! When you can take that money and reward other players on the team for their performance

I don't think thats a reality, in most cases (players just coast). Especially young talent. Some, sure.... perhaps.

But every other professional sport has guaranteed contracts. Meaning, you pay them no matter what. If you agree to pay them 10 million a year for the next 10 years, and then you cut them after year 3... you STILL have to pay them the rest of that money (same in baseball, hockey). Not in the NFL.

So, yeah, the owners would LOVE to have it the way you are describing. Then there is absolutely no risk on the owners part, and all the risk goes to the player. He gets injured.. bam. Cut his ass..... no pay. He looks at your wife wrong.. bam... cut him, no pay.

The signing bonus is the ONLY thing the NFL players have that resembles guaranteed contracts. Fans want to complain about the players not "holding up to their contract"... yet the owners are ok to break that contract at any time.

The players are the ones making these owners MEGA rich.

[Ziggy]

I'm with Coach on this one. I love the fact that Doom can rack up 17 sacks in a season. I hate the fact that he's a liability every time he's not rushing the passer. You just can't pay him like a Demarcus Ware. Ware helps his team on every play, whether it be run or pass. Doom help the team on passing plays only. Giving him a good contract is fine. Giving him a top 3 LB contract is crazy.

[Dirk]

I'm with Coach on this one. I love the fact that Doom can rack up 17 sacks in a season. I hate the fact that he's a liability every time he's not rushing the passer. You just can't pay him like a Demarcus Ware. Ware helps his team on every play, whether it be run or pass. Doom help the team on passing plays only. Giving him a good contract is fine. Giving him a top 3 LB contract is crazy.

Exactly where I am on this also. :beer:



If there is a lockout...the NFL should put in place an upward pay scale. Just like other union shops.

Start off at X amount as a rookie and each year you get a raise if you deserve it. Of course that will never happen.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

Doom isn't the greatest all around OLB/DE in the league. Everyone knows this. Our main problem here is that Doom is the only dude on the roster than can rush the passer with any consistency. If we are foolish enough to trade Doom believing that either Ayers or a rookie like Graham will just step in and match that performance (even together), we're taking an unnecessary and foolhardy risk. Would our defense have been anywhere near as good vs the pass last year without Doom? Can you guarantee that Ayers or Graham or whoever will be the next Doom? For all we know, both are closer to becoming the next Jarvis Moss.

I know it's been kicked around a whole lot lately, but you have to have TALENTED players to win. Everyone LOVES to point to the Patriots and Bellicheats "Team first" mentality. Umm, in case you guys haven't noticed, they've got some talented mofos over there in NE and have for a decade. Right now, we're seeing what failing to pay to retain talent does first hand. NE's defense took a huge step backward last year because they :

a) refused to give Seymour a new contract and traded him
b) decided Vrabel was too old and traded him
c) lost Harrison to retirement
d) still refuse to pay CBs what they're worth - letting Asante Samuel go looks really dumb, now, don't it?

The only SMART thing they've done is pay Wilfork. Their defense was the worst they've fielded in a decade this past year and it's because Bellicheat "thinks" he's smarter than the system and can win with sub-par talent because of his arrogance. The Pats defense will only get worse if they are too cheap to retain their talent.


If we're too cheap to retain the BEST PASS RUSHER WE'VE EVER HAD (you heard me, you know it's true) then what's the point of suiting up every week? If we lose Dumervil, that's just one more position of need to fill. We're already down a FB, WR, probably a TE, a Guard, a Center, and possibly even our best OLB/pass rusher? Seriously? How many draft picks do you guys think we have? What are the odds that even 50% of those picks will even work out as planned?

We NEED to re-sign Dumervil. Don't tell me he's not worth it. He does exactly what he was drafted to do: KILL QBs! We've got to keep at least some of our young, star talent. Letting him go after this year, or trading him - especially with no one to replace him - would be the death of our pass defense and for Josh's career in Denver. If we can't keep other teams from scoring at will, we're screwed because we won't be racking up the points this year - not with our offense.

[Ravage!!!]

Exactly where I am on this also. :beer:



If there is a lockout...the NFL should put in place an upward pay scale. Just like other union shops.

Start off at X amount as a rookie and each year you get a raise if you deserve it. Of course that will never happen.

What determines a 'raise'? Does everyone get it? EVeryone paid the same? Everyone gets the same raise? Players that make the team more money, don't get paid more money?

Yeah..... I think you are right, this will never happen. :beer:

[Krugan]

So when does this team pay someone?

Doom has been a hand on the ground guy im betting 99% of his playing life, and did well enough at it to start for a NFL team.

The guy accepted being moved into a new position, continued to do what he did previously, at a high level while learning a new role. He did what was asked and did well enough to lead the NFL in sacks.

You cant expect someone to pick up a new role and excel in his first attempt after knowing basically one thing his whole learning career. I mean really, if we are going to go that route, why the HELL isnt DJ out the door already? I think the guy blew MLB all to hell in that attempt.

All this being typed, this team has created a very messy pile by moving out the talent that wants abit of scratch and showing no desire to pay those that are here, to stay here.

Its sad really.

[Northman]

So when does this team pay someone?

Doom has been a hand on the ground guy im betting 99% of his playing life, and did well enough at it to start for a NFL team.

The guy accepted being moved into a new position, continued to do what he did previously, at a high level while learning a new role. He did what was asked and did well enough to lead the NFL in sacks.

You cant expect someone to pick up a new role and excel in his first attempt after knowing basically one thing his whole learning career. I mean really, if we are going to go that route, why the HELL isnt DJ out the door already? I think the guy blew MLB all to hell in that attempt.

All this being typed, this team has created a very messy pile by moving out the talent that wants abit of scratch and showing no desire to pay those that are here, to stay here.

Its sad really.


I agree. I can understand the Marshall situation but if they dont pay Doom than something is amiss. I would be very disappointed if we didnt pay Doom at least something worth his while and efforts. The guy has been the consumate team player and deserves to be rewarded for that.

[CoachChaz]

I dont think the argument is whether or not to pay Doom...it's paying him a fair value. Does he deserve a raise? Of course. Does he deserve Demarcus Ware money? No chance in hell.

Now, if he goes out this season and racks up 15 sacks and shows he can play the run and cover anything, then I'll reconsider. But if he gets 15 sacks and is a liability everywhere else...and then asks for Ware money...


...adios muchacho

[Northman]

I dont think the argument is whether or not to pay Doom...it's paying him a fair value. Does he deserve a raise? Of course. Does he deserve Demarcus Ware money? No chance in hell.

Now, if he goes out this season and racks up 15 sacks and shows he can play the run and cover anything, then I'll reconsider. But if he gets 15 sacks and is a liability everywhere else...and then asks for Ware money...


...adios muchacho

I havent seen anywhere in print where he wants Ware money have you? I think a lot of fans are just believing he will go that route but im not sure if he is even asking for that type of payday.

[CoachChaz]

I havent seen anywhere in print where he wants Ware money have you? I think a lot of fans are just believing he will go that route but im not sure if he is even asking for that type of payday.

I havent. The key words in my posts about that have been IF. I dont know what he wants, but IF we've seen Doom at his peak and IF he wants Ware money...I'll pass.

[Broncolingus]

Intuition says Denver does want (and has been trying) to keep Doom around...

...also agree with most that it would be nice to see a bit more 'balance' in his game...

...although, he is a friggin monster at rushing the QB.

Man, we really need a solid NT too...

[topscribe]

Intuition says Denver does want (and has been trying) to keep Doom around...

...also agree with most that it would be nice to see a bit more 'balance' in his game...

...although, he is a friggin monster at rushing the QB.

Man, we really need a solid NT too...

If he has just another year or two in the tank, Jamal Williams is solid and then some.

Speaking of intuition, one thing that kind of encouraged me if it bears out: Marcus
Thomas has been losing weight and studying the DE position. Now, none of us
knows exactly what is going on in Dove Valley, but could that be a sign that the
Broncos think Chris Baker is ready? I remember McDaniels' saying that Baker
had this way of knocking O-linemen back. Sounded pretty good to me.

One can hope, can't one? :pray:

-----

[Broncolingus]

If he has just another year or two in the tank, Jamal Williams is solid and then some.

Speaking of intuition, one thing that kind of encouraged me if it bears out: Marcus
Thomas has been losing weight and studying the DE position. Now, none of us
knows exactly what is going on in Dove Valley, but could that be a sign that the
Broncos think Chris Baker is ready? I remember McDaniels' saying that Baker
had this way of knocking O-linemen back. Sounded pretty good to me.

One can hope, can't one? :pray:

-----

I agree...

...and hope he stays healthy.

(...although, my intuition isn't really giving me good juju on that...)

[dogfish]

just trade the kid-- even among our own fan base, a lot of people obviously don't think he deserves the type of big deal that other all-pro players get. . .

"all he does is get sacks"

and all chris carter did was catch touchdowns. . . it's cool, though, it's not like we need sacks-- we didn't win with doom here, and we don' ned no stinking talent-- we have THE SYSTEM and a bunch of draft picks, look the **** out!

[CoachChaz]

just trade the kid-- even among our own fan base, a lot of people obviously don't think he deserves the type of big deal that other all-pro players get. . .

"all he does is get sacks"

and all chris carter did was catch touchdowns. . . it's cool, though, it's not like we need sacks-- we didn't win with doom here, and we don' ned no stinking talent-- we have THE SYSTEM and a bunch of draft picks, look the **** out!

:rolleyes:

I wont even begin to compare what Carter did as a WR to what Doom does at his position.

The only point being made is that we'd rather give a complete player the money instead of a one trick pony. That's all

[turftoad]

:rolleyes:

I wont even begin to compare what Carter did as a WR to what Doom does at his position.

The only point being made is that we'd rather give a complete player the money instead of a one trick pony. That's all

And who would that be?

[Lonestar]

Have mixed feelings about Doom, was less than thrilled when he was drafted, thinking a midget DE was nuts.

He did a MUCH better job thatn I thought possible.

When he was moved to OLB thought he would suck there also. Did decent job in his first year not grew at anything but beating the DEs to the QB.

Has a great attitude not doubt about that.

The question really is do we pay him fro being only a passing down guy or will he develop into a good to great OLB on all downs.

Will he accept an incentive laden contract that forces him into getting better at the other things he is supposed to do. Something other than Sack.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

just trade the kid-- even among our own fan base, a lot of people obviously don't think he deserves the type of big deal that other all-pro players get. . .

"all he does is get sacks"

and all chris carter did was catch touchdowns. . . it's cool, though, it's not like we need sacks-- we didn't win with doom here, and we don' ned no stinking talent-- we have THE SYSTEM and a bunch of draft picks, look the **** out!

QFT. Maybe if we didn't pay Lonnie Paxton, Jabar Gaffney, Brandon Lloyd, and JJ "ouch my knee!" Arrington so much for 'system performance', we could afford to pay Elvis for PRO BOWL PERFORMANCE! Just a thought, but nah we're better off with another 2nd round pick. :tsk:

Here's a tip, folks. Dwight Freeney SUCKS ASS against the run. Guess how much he gets paid JUST TO GET SACKS! It's a passing driven league. If you can't rush the QB - you lose. Frankly, I don't care if Elvis makes ANY tackles in the running game if he keeps giving us DOUBLE DIGIT SACKS! There are 10 other mfers out there with him to stop the run. Elvis' job is to intimidate, chase down, and destroy QBs. Nobody did it better last year in the whole league... yet he's just not worth big money.... whatever.

[CoachChaz]

And who would that be?

Read the whole thread, DevilDog. I said in an earlier post that this is why I'd like to draft Graham. If Ayers steps up and Graham can be a stud, then we'll have options. Right now, Doom is our best pass rusher...no doubt. That doesnt mean he'll be the best overall (on our team) at that position a year from now. If we have 3 guys that can run the position and he proves to be by far the best...then pay him top dollar. If all he can do is rush the passer...then I'm limited on the contract I would offer him.

[turftoad]

Read the whole thread, DevilDog. I said in an earlier post that this is why I'd like to draft Graham. If Ayers steps up and Graham can be a stud, then we'll have options. Right now, Doom is our best pass rusher...no doubt. That doesnt mean he'll be the best overall (on our team) at that position a year from now. If we have 3 guys that can run the position and he proves to be by far the best...then pay him top dollar. If all he can do is rush the passer...then I'm limited on the contract I would offer him.

Oh I agree Coach. Problem is, right now he's the best we got. We don't know if Ayers will come on or if Graham will pan out. We don't have the luxury of time to see if they will be good pro's (complete player) or not.
I think Dumerville will get better in his second year as an OLB.
Stud pass rushers are hard to find anyway. Hell, big time players deserve big time $. That is not gonna change.

[topscribe]

Read the whole thread, DevilDog. I said in an earlier post that this is why I'd like to draft Graham. If Ayers steps up and Graham can be a stud, then we'll have options. Right now, Doom is our best pass rusher...no doubt. That doesnt mean he'll be the best overall (on our team) at that position a year from now. If we have 3 guys that can run the position and he proves to be by far the best...then pay him top dollar. If all he can do is rush the passer...then I'm limited on the contract I would offer him.

You make sense here. I really believe Ayers will be a star. And (okay, start
laughing), I haven't given up completely on Moss . . . the Broncos haven't, or he
would have gone the way of Andra Davis. He has just been fighting weight
problems, and he was a misfit as a down lineman. But I do believe they must see
something in him at OLB.

As you suggested, there is no guarantee Dumervil will remain the best OLB
overall (although I don't see anyone better at rushing the passer).

Which makes me wonder why you would want Graham with the #11 when the
O-line seems to have much worse glaring holes than LB. But I probably should
address this in that thread . . .

-----

[Buff]

This is still a business people, it doesn't make good business sense to pay a guy based on a career year (which could prove to be an anomalie). I'm sure McD plans on paying the guy, but there is no reason to rush into a huge deal while Doom has all the leverage. Wait it out and find something that's fair for both sides.

[Buff]

Top, sometimes I love your homerism, but it's time to give up on Moss. He is OFFICIALLY a HUGE bust.

[CoachChaz]

Oh I agree Coach. Problem is, right now he's the best we got. We don't know if Ayers will come on or if Graham will pan out. We don't have the luxury of time to see if they will be good pro's (complete player) or not.
I think Dumerville will get better in his second year as an OLB.
Stud pass rushers are hard to find anyway. Hell, big time players deserve big time $. That is not gonna change.

But we do have a little time. Let's assume we draft Graham. Ayers gives us 7-8 sacks and 50 tackles...Graham, as a rookie, gives us 4-5 sacks in limited PT and shows potential to be better with more PT.

now we have 3 OLB's. All show passrush skills and 2 show run coverage skills. What do we do?




I'll be honest...I dont see Denver drafting Graham, so my hope is that Doom figures out how to play the run. I just dont think his body frame will ever allow that to happen.

[topscribe]

Top, sometimes I love your homerism, but it's time to give up on Moss. He is OFFICIALLY a HUGE bust.

I don't know about that. The Broncos don't seem to think so . . . yet.

He's still on the squad, so I'm just going by what they seem to see . . .whatever that is . . .

-----

[Buff]

I don't know about that. The Broncos don't seem to think so . . . yet.

He's still on the squad, so I'm just going by what they seem to see . . .whatever that is . . .

-----

The only reason he didn't get cut last year is because we were still paying him a bunch of money.

I GUARANTEE he gets cut this fall. Never been so sure about anything in my life.

[dogfish]

manny lawson overall pick #22 -- 4 seasons, 12 sacks

gaines adams (RIP) #4 - 3 seasons, 13.5 sacks
jamaal anderson #8 -- 3 seasons, 2.5 sacks
jarvis moss #17 -- 3 seasons, 3.5 sacks
turk mcbride #54 -- 3 seasons, 2.5 sacks
tim crowder #56 -- 3 seasons, 7.5 sacks
victor abiamiri #57 -- 3 seasons, 4 sacks
dan bazuin #61 -- 3 seasons, 0 sacks


vernon gholston #6 -- 2 seasons, 0 sacks
derrick harvey #8 -- 2 seasons, 5.5 sacks
lawrence jackson #28 -- 2 seasons, 6.5 sacks
quentin groves #52 - 2 seasons, 2.5 sacks

aaron maybin #11 -- 1 season, 0 sacks
larry english #16 -- 1 season, 2 sacks
robert ayers #18 -- 1 season, 0 sacks
everette brown #43 -- 1 season, 2.5 sacks
clint sintim #45 -- 1 season, 1 sack


look how many pass rushers have either flat busted, or at least not produced to start their careers and will bust if they don't step it up (i know the last couple classes still have a chance-- but i don't have time to go back any further right now-- you get the point). . . pass rushers bust like it's the hot new trend. . . sure you can also point out some guys that were drafted in the same period who have succeeded, but it's not uncommon at allll to spend a top fifteen pick on the position and watch them disappear from the league without a trace. . .

how many picks and free agent dollars did we have to throw at the spot before we actually found a guy that can get it done-- and now people want to get rid of him rather than give hima new contract. . . in an uncapped year, when it's been stated by many that the cap may never return?

i'm sure we'll all be so glad that bowlen was able to keep some extra dough if we go another five or ten years without finding another effective edge rusher. . . it's not like this is a passing leage and you need to pressure the QB or anything. . .


elvis dumervil # 126 -- 4 seasons, 43 sacks

get rid of the one-trick pony, he's easily replaceable in the draft. . .

[topscribe]

The only reason he didn't get cut last year is because we were still paying him a bunch of money.

I GUARANTEE he gets cut this fall. Never been so sure about anything in my life.

Can't argue one way or the other.

However, I don't believe money would be a barrier to McDaniels' jettisoning a
bust to improve the team. He seems myopic in that way.

But maybe you're right. We'll see . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

Doom isn't the greatest all around OLB/DE in the league. Everyone knows this. Our main problem here is that Doom is the only dude on the roster than can rush the passer with any consistency. If we are foolish enough to trade Doom believing that either Ayers or a rookie like Graham will just step in and match that performance (even together), we're taking an unnecessary and foolhardy risk. Would our defense have been anywhere near as good vs the pass last year without Doom? Can you guarantee that Ayers or Graham or whoever will be the next Doom? For all we know, both are closer to becoming the next Jarvis Moss.

I know it's been kicked around a whole lot lately, but you have to have TALENTED players to win. Everyone LOVES to point to the Patriots and Bellicheats "Team first" mentality. Umm, in case you guys haven't noticed, they've got some talented mofos over there in NE and have for a decade. Right now, we're seeing what failing to pay to retain talent does first hand. NE's defense took a huge step backward last year because they :

a) refused to give Seymour a new contract and traded him
b) decided Vrabel was too old and traded him
c) lost Harrison to retirement
d) still refuse to pay CBs what they're worth - letting Asante Samuel go looks really dumb, now, don't it?

The only SMART thing they've done is pay Wilfork. Their defense was the worst they've fielded in a decade this past year and it's because Bellicheat "thinks" he's smarter than the system and can win with sub-par talent because of his arrogance. The Pats defense will only get worse if they are too cheap to retain their talent.


If we're too cheap to retain the BEST PASS RUSHER WE'VE EVER HAD (you heard me, you know it's true) then what's the point of suiting up every week? If we lose Dumervil, that's just one more position of need to fill. We're already down a FB, WR, probably a TE, a Guard, a Center, and possibly even our best OLB/pass rusher? Seriously? How many draft picks do you guys think we have? What are the odds that even 50% of those picks will even work out as planned?

We NEED to re-sign Dumervil. Don't tell me he's not worth it. He does exactly what he was drafted to do: KILL QBs! We've got to keep at least some of our young, star talent. Letting him go after this year, or trading him - especially with no one to replace him - would be the death of our pass defense and for Josh's career in Denver. If we can't keep other teams from scoring at will, we're screwed because we won't be racking up the points this year - not with our offense.


But you failed to notice that they have a spare part on the shelf before they get rid of someone in Seymors case they drafted Wilfork so they could move Seymor to DE, then drafted brace to cover that issue if it comes to that.

2 40 Ron Brace DT Boston College

Same goes for Vrabel picked up Mayo when Vrabel got to old.

also
3 97 Tyrone McKenzie OLB
1 10 Jerod Mayo ILB Tennessee
3 78 Shawn Crable OLB Michigan

They had a base team and have been adding to it year after year. Take top choices run them for there atlas rookie contract extend once if they re not to expensive and then trade them for other draft choices when the want to much dinero.

As for sammeuls

Rd Sel # Player Position School
2 34 Pat Chung DB Oregon
2 41 Darius Butler DB
2 62 Terrence Wheatley CB Colorado
1 24 Brandon Meriweather DB Miami (Fla.)


The only one that they did not replace, was for FS Harrison and while they did draft to do so a few years back they failed with those picks.

Hmmmmmmm who does that sound like.

You may not like that mike was fired but this kid has come from some talented root stock and IMO will take what he learned from his dad, while in college and from Bill and will use it well.

Something we never did since Al Wilson was drafted plan ahead more than next year.

[dogfish]

:rolleyes:

I wont even begin to compare what Carter did as a WR to what Doom does at his position.

The only point being made is that we'd rather give a complete player the money instead of a one trick pony. That's all

WHAT complete player?

we don't even have that guy on the roster right now, coach. . . sometime you have to pay the guys you got. . .

some of this league's all-time greats weren't complete players-- was deion sanders a complete player? dude never saw a tackle he couldn't avoid making-- but he was the definition of elite at what he did do well. . .

but let me stop using all-time greats-- today's NFL is full of incomplete players who are still studs and get paid like it. . . simeon rice was garbage against the run, and so was jason taylor for most of his career-- just like freeney and mathis. . . chris johnson isn't a power runner, peyton manning can't scramble, casey hampton can't rush the passer, desean jackson isn't an over-the-middle and red zone guy, etc etc etc. . . there are dozens of guys in this league who are very good without being complete players. . .

i'd rather have lawrence taylor too, but we don't. . . and i'm not willing to wait until we find him. . .

[Lonestar]

Top, sometimes I love your homerism, but it's time to give up on Moss. He is OFFICIALLY a HUGE bust.


Yep just one of those BAtes deals..:salute:

[Buff]

WHAT complete player?

we don't even have that guy on the roster right now, coach. . . sometime you have to pay the guys you got. . .

some of this league's all-time greats weren't complete players-- was deion sanders a complete player? dude never saw a tackle he couldn't avoid making-- but he was the definition of elite at what he did do well. . .

but let me stop using all-time greats-- today's NFL is full of incomplete players who are still studs and get paid like it. . . simeon rice was garbage against the run, and so was jason taylor for most of his career-- just like freeney and mathis. . . chris johnson isn't a power runner, peyton manning can't scramble, casey hampton can't rush the passer, desean jackson isn't an over-the-middle and red zone guy, etc etc etc. . . there are dozens of guys in this league who are very good without being complete players. . .

i'd rather have lawrence taylor too, but we don't. . . and i'm not willing to wait until we find him. . .

I think everyone is arguing in circles in this thread. No one is saying Doom shouldn't get paid, it's just a matter of how much.

[WARHORSE]

At the end of the day............what an overused statement.



Lets all be honest. Unless you have a talent that is ultra elite, chances are we arent going to sign them.

The only way players like Doom get big money is if they hit free agency in their prime.

Carlos Dansby is the example.

Brandon is an exception, his situation doesnt happen often.


Doomerville wont get the big money unless he has a few teams bidding on his services, and Denver cant retain his rights through RFAgency or franchising him.

Big money contracts are basically overpaying for a player, unless theyre ultra elite......that being the Peytons, Bradys, Peppers, Ogdens, Paces, etc.


Doom will never get a major contract here like he would in FAgency.

He simply doesnt do enough well. He is a one trick pony. It just so happens everybody absolutley goes gaga over that one trick.


And look......as far as being a team player, if Doom thinks its time to get paid, he can change his tune very quickly.


I hope we keep Doom

But if hes going to sit out to get big money, Id trade him in a heartbeat.

[BigBroncLove]

I think everyone is arguing in circles in this thread. No one is saying Doom shouldn't get paid, it's just a matter of how much.

Well something to consider when looking over NFL contracts. Every consecutive year you see a regular increase in contract size. Why? because the NFL grows in percentage of market share each year. Over the past ten years, though the NFL refuses to release financial statements to the public, the NFL did say that it grew by 500%. So as a result you see a regular increase in contract size. Rookie contracts increase in size based on draft position at a regular percentage. I've posted the figures before, but last year it was about 15 - 16% from the year before. The same thing goes for player contracts. You see the highest paid player being signed every year because revenue for the NFL increases and agents and players know this and demand more money. So when you look at a contract, what is fair market value for Dumervil?

You certainly can't base it on a contract like say Adalius Thomas who was signed in 07. You have to base it off of last year's contracts signed with an annual percentage increase. Now I'm not saying give the man a 74 million dollar contract for seven years like Ware, but Dumervil has earned his keep. Something around Harrisons contract strikes me as perfectly fair (six year 54 million dollar contract).

Despite everyone saying let Dumervil pack his crap if he doesn't want to negotiate for a bigger contract than you or I think, I believe that is completely short sighted. What the current market and set of circumstances has shown is these players will get paid somewhere. Money you or I think is ridiculous, but it will happen. And a player like Dumervil just doesn't fall from the sky every year. It's not just something you can say, "hey we can get another one like you easy" cause it's not.

He doesn't have any issues obviously with the team first ideology. People talk about Ayers but he hasn't proved a thing yet, so we only have one solid OLB right now. If it was so easy to find a guy like Dumervil every team would have a player with 17 sacks. He may need some serious work in coverage but he was a DE his entire life. To expect him to make the full transition to LB in one year is a little deluded.

I said it before and I'll say it again, you can only blood let so far before you bleed a team dry. You start sending a message the Broncos will play ball only from the business end, then if/when Dumervil does see FA next year he will decide to go with the exact same approach. Except then the price to sign him will have increased even further (based on annual increase of contract size) and since he will likely be in FA he will surely be able to drive the price to a ceiling that would make this years top contract very welcoming. Everyone always talks about building through the draft.... well for that to work you have to retain what talent you find in it. Otherwise your a revolving door of an organization that just goes in circles. No one ever got to the top of this league by going in circles...

Edit: oh and buff I was just quoting your post for a port to talk about fair market value in contracts. Not pointing the post at you.

[Buff]

Again, no one is saying they don't want him on the team, no one is saying we ought to be super cheap here... We're just saying let's not commit franchise-player type money to a guy who has some physical limitations.

If you start to overpay guys because they are the best you've got at that moment, then you start the slow Mike Shanahan downward spiral and over time it gets to the point where you've committed an inordinate amount of salary cap space to "dead money" on guys who have since been shown the door.

There is a happy medium here somewhere, and ultimately that's what all of us want.

[BigBroncLove]

Again, no one is saying they don't want him on the team, no one is saying we ought to be super cheap here... We're just saying let's not commit franchise-player type money to a guy who has some physical limitations.

If you start to overpay guys because they are the best you've got at that moment, then you start the slow Mike Shanahan downward sprial and over time it gets to the point where you've committed an inordinate amount of salary cap space to "dead money" on guys who have since been shown the door after it was determined that they weren't playing up to their contract.

There is a happy medium here somewhere, and ultimately that's what all of us want.


I know Buff... well not everyone is saying that, but I know you are. As I said in the edit I wasn't pointing that post at you. Just using it as a port to to talk about market value and contracts.

However I think some people need to re-evaluate what they think is fair market value because the NFL does increase yearly in revenue and market share, hence why you see increase in contract size every year. I think some people have the idea that the contracts from 2007 still apply to todays signings. They don't. Hopefully there is a happy medium, even under all the uncertainty that the labor negotations have created, but what some think is a massive contract is what is a fair going rate these days....

[WARHORSE]

I believe fair market value is whatever Denver and Doom decide between them.

Doom will never get the contract agreeing with Denver on one that he would get in the open market.

He would get overpaid in the open market.


Lets just hope he really wants to stay here, and a Harrison contract is enough.

[nevcraw]

At the end of the day............what an overused statement.



Lets all be honest. Unless you have a talent that is ultra elite, chances are we arent going to sign them.

The only way players like Doom get big money is if they hit free agency in their prime.

Carlos Dansby is the example.

Brandon is an exception, his situation doesnt happen often.


Doomerville wont get the big money unless he has a few teams bidding on his services, and Denver cant retain his rights through RFAgency or franchising him.

Big money contracts are basically overpaying for a player, unless theyre ultra elite......that being the Peytons, Bradys, Peppers, Ogdens, Paces, etc.


Doom will never get a major contract here like he would in FAgency.

He simply doesnt do enough well. He is a one trick pony. It just so happens everybody absolutley goes gaga over that one trick.


And look......as far as being a team player, if Doom thinks its time to get paid, he can change his tune very quickly.

I hope we keep Doom

But if hes going to sit out to get big money, Id trade him in a heartbeat.



and then we can run his ass out of town like all of the other talented malcontents.

I am so glad you are not running my team although you atitude is shared with those who are.. anybody who doesn't step in line is quiclky vilified, painted like a selfish player and traded to the highest bidder..

I just hope for all of our sake that talent does indeed grow on trees and McD know how pluck em and coach them up.. we shall see..

[Lonestar]

Let's see so far the only player that ws mistreated by Josh was the old LS when he brought in Lonnie.

Everyone else so far has been non talent or a malcontent or money grubber.

Just because you are willing to put up with head case talents does not mean the TEAM needs to.

As far as doom is concerned.

I'd pay him a top 10-15 money with riders/incentives for becoming more than a 3rd down or pass rusher.

NO ONE as a RFA is getting big deals from their own team. It is because NO OWNER wants to pay until they have a CBA in place.

So Josh is not the only BAD guy there are 31 other clubs doing the same thing and I'll bet that Doom and his agent understand this.

If I were him I'd sign the tender and get into Dove Valley to work with my teamates.

Atleast he is under contract and if injured would get something as compensation.

His agent is doing him a disservice at this point. IMO


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