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Dirk
04-15-2010, 07:45 AM
I know we all have our love for the Broncos. And each of us has a right to our own opinions on how the "boy who would be coach" has faired so far in Denver.

But seriously folks, enough is enough. Let it ride out. See how this all unfolds.

When you think about it objectively you have to understand where McDaniels is coming from and where he wants to get to.

McD stated he wanted the Broncos to become a smarter, bigger and stronger team. He is working his way towards that. Through free agency and draft. This doesn't happen over night. He needs time to get it all together. He is making strides to get there.

Cutler - Ego to match and/or exceed McD's. He wanted his position solidified with no chance of ever being traded. McD would not give him that because as the HC he has to make everyone accountable and they have to realize that there are no guarantees in the NFL. Cutler didn't like that so McD got fair trade value for him.

Hillis - A fan favorite but did nothing really other than come in after every other back got hurt and then got hurt himself. Fumbled when he got his chance with McD and that sealed his fate. McD got more than fair trade value for him.

BMarsh - A troubled soul who put himself before the team on countless occasions off the field as well as in the locker room and practices. He said he didn't want to be in Denver. McD got fair trade value for him.

Nolan - His defense played well in the beginning of the season and then fell apart. He did not want to be in Denver either. McD was kind enough to let him out of his contract. In doing so he promoted from within the Broncos organization to give a guy a chance at the big time.


Scheff - Who really cares. If he can't block then we can't use him with this scheme. Hopefully McD will get fair trade value for him also. If he is traded.

Please stop the hate and look at it objectively in view of the overall picture. Not just the individuals.

I was livid at first when the "franchise" QB was traded. And I use that term very loosely, but now after time, I see it was the right move. I am looking at the overall picture, not just the moment.

Anyway, I know this post won't sway many of you to stop with the endless hate, but I had to state my mind. Just like many of you have.


I feel better. :D

claymore
04-15-2010, 08:05 AM
My hate runs deep. I will never like what McD has done or is trying to do.

I respect your post though. And understand how you feel.

UnderArmour
04-15-2010, 08:21 AM
Whatever. I don't care. But we better make the playoffs. If we don't start winning now, McDaniels gets to keep his job by virtue that he's screwed over whoever is next so bad that they cannot salvage the franchise for another 6-8 years. No really, if we don't start winning we're going to turn into the Oakland Raiders or the Kansas City Chiefs really fast. That's why we're all pissed off. In the past two years we have traded away:

1 Pro Bowl QB
1 All Pro WR
1 beastly receiver at FB/RB
Going to trade away (probably):
An elite receiving TE
Released:
1 ALL PRO LINEBACKER JAMIE WINBORUNE
1 ALL PRO HALL OF FAME CB DRE BLY
1 ALL PRO HALL OF FAME NATE WEBSTER
1 ALL PRO HALL OF FAME MARQUAND MANUEL(BEAST ON THE LIONS HOLLA) 1 ALL PRO HALL OF FAME DEWAYNE ROBERTSON
1 HIGH CHARACTER BEAST ROLE PLAYER JOHN ENGLEBURGER
A HIGH CHARACTER VETERAN LEADER NIKO KOUTIVDES(NIIIIIIIIKOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!)
I CANT BELIEVE WE DUMPED THAT MUCH DEFENSIVE TALENT! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NIKO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT NIKO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
1 BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ! DEFENSIVE COORD-BLITZORDINATOR MIKE BLITZ NOLAN BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ BLITZ

Drafted:
FUMBLE THE FOOTBALL KNOWSHON MORENO!!!!
NON FACTOR ROBERT AYERS (WOOOOOOOO TOUCH THE QB BEAST)
FUTURE ALL PRO HOFER ALPHONSO SMITH(TWICE THE CB CHAMP BAILEY IS WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Umm... Some blocking TE
And umm...
I forgot.

But yeah... I'd say whoever picks up this mess is screwed. Although McDaniels is doing a great job with the defense.

Northman
04-15-2010, 08:26 AM
As much grief as i give Clay and company i understand their plight as well. So while i dont understand the hate completely its hard to grasp why McD cannot control whats going on with high profile players. And in the end the last couple of posters are correct. McD needs to win and make the playoffs this year this much i am sure. He wasnt brought in to spend a decade rebuilding. Bowlen said he wanted to get back to the playoffs and to the SB and McD's leash is not a long one. Maybe not this year (even though i expect it) but certainly by year 3 and if he has a losing season im not sure Bowlen will be as forgiving.

East Coast Fan
04-15-2010, 08:27 AM
My hate runs deep. I will never like what McD has done or is trying to do.

I respect your post though. And understand how you feel.


Kind of my sentiments, except substitute the word "disappointment" for hate...I can't say that I exactly hate anything or anyone out there, but am very discouraged to see this happening. But perhaps it is like the Steve Miller song "Jetliner" where he sings "you've got to go thru hell before you get to Heaven".....we shall see....

roomemp
04-15-2010, 08:35 AM
I am also personally sick of all the negativity also but saying that, you cannot tell someone to not have an opinion. Everybody has an opinion. I don't want to be one of those people who say......Clay and Ravage you should change your opinion because I think you are wrong.

Lancane
04-15-2010, 09:15 AM
Has anyone realized that the last year of Shanahan's tenure was the most content season we have had in the fandom in a long while? It's true, we looked to becoming another juggernaut offensive team, even without the defense people were excited, then we were shocked to hear that Shanahan was fired...but we were still excited, the majority was pumped. Bowlen, Xander, Goodman and Ellis were in the 'news' - "Cutler is the face of this franchise", "We're looking for a coach that can make this unit win"...

Everyone was psyched, I don't care if you were a Shanahan supporter or not, there was the future...we had one of the best young offenses in the league, we needed to fix the F'n defense. Everyone had an opinion, and McDaniels 'Who I was a huge supporter for' was not the favored, Spagnuolo was, even what's his face from Tampa Bay...Raheem Morris was more favored then Josh. I waivered a little, because the other coach I would loved to of had was Jason Garret, and now I wish we would have hired him! - We wanted to improve, we wanted or the majority wanted a better defense or the 3-4 brought back.

As one of his former supporters let me tell you, I'm starting to hate him, he has done little besides fix the defense and dissmantled one of the better young offenses in the league, yet everyone buys into his 'team' plan, and while the philosophy is sound, he pushed players away himself, if he didn't want them and they were not 'his' guys then get rid of them? Jason Garrett and Steve Spagnuolo, even Morris wanted the gig because of the offensive foundation we had installed! He did not make us better, he made the defense better and there is no way in hell the offense is as good as it was.

So we're not allowed to hate him? We don't have a reason to? -- To me, the trading of Cutler was like someone taking over in Green Bay or Indianapolis and getting rid of Farve or Manning during their early years...it was a no-no. But I gave him the benefit of the doubt, what he did by freakin' lying outright was a no-no, but I was at that time willing to forgive him...figuring he would get Sanchez or another franchise-esque quarterback in the draft, or something...but no, we got Kyle Orton and he and some other's expected the fandom to whole heartidly accept him...Bullshit! That was sort of my straw and the trend continued, yes Marshall was an airhead and made some pinnacle freaking mistakes, but he was one of the better wideouts in the game and a lot of that had to do with the issues going on with this team, the trading of Cutler and other reasons. But McDaniels' does not have the patience to deal with troubled stars, that makes him an immature idiot and at this point... I have no faith in him, I hate Orton...but if he doesn't pull his head out of his ass, which is not likely, then what is dislike and faithlessness will become hate quite quickly...

guitarj
04-15-2010, 09:19 AM
All this trade news really isnt all that new except the details. What has really changed since week 17? We knew this was coming!

I was really disappointed after our loss to KC. It really was the nail in the coffen of what was last season. I really have no choice though, but to get on board with this new direction. Cutler last year, and Marshall both dissappointed me. I will never consider either of them great Bronco players. They in the end are meee players, not Broncos!!

I want to see some new spirited team players. We have never really replaced the Rod Smith's and Al Wilson's on this team!!

I will give McKid the benifit of the doubt for now. Rod Smith and Al Wilson type players dont develop overnight

Lonestar
04-15-2010, 09:24 AM
I don't understand why mike was given a pass for ten years for his uber poor decisions on personnel (excepting 06 and to me that was somewhat debateable) yet are willing to crucify Josh for cleaning up mikes mess.

Yes mike won a couple of rings but had he done lately. Knowing he would have douched the defense at least on more year, the playoffs were not going to happen last year either. Or if they did it would have been one and done. AGAIN.

I do not get it either.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

atwater27
04-15-2010, 09:35 AM
I hate that Mike Shanahan was born. Curse him and all his future generations.

edited for accuracy

Nomad
04-15-2010, 09:39 AM
Broncos Forums should replace "As The World Turns" to "As BRONCO Nation Turns". This place would definitely win a Soap Opera Emmy in the drama queen department!:lol: It's highly entertaining to see grown men whine and get depressed like my 5 yr old over shit they can't control! Carry on!

guitarj
04-15-2010, 09:41 AM
Everyone was psyched, I don't care if you were a Shanahan supporter or not, there was the future...we had one of the best young offenses in the league, we needed to fix the F'n defense. ..

That defense made me furious. There was no excuse!! Shanahan could no longer to continue to fire D-Cordinaters. Ultimately he had to answer for it.

Yes, the O looked like the future, but I think the character flaws in our budding stars would have doomed us anyway. Cutler and Marshall are very talented athletes....the best. In the end, they are not loyal to the team, and were not the kind of leaders that win championships!

Maybe with their new scenery, they will grow up and change, but i have my doubts.

Lancane
04-15-2010, 09:41 AM
Broncos Forums should replace "As The World Turns" to "As BRONCO Nation Turns". This place would definitely win a Soap Opera Emmy in the drama queen department!:lol: It's highly entertaining to see grown men whine like my 5 yr old over shit they can't control! Carry on!

Well, what do you purpose Nomad, we take it to the octagon and have a free for all, no holds barred street fight? I'm game...

;)

Lancane
04-15-2010, 09:44 AM
That defense made me furious. There was no excuse!! Shanahan could no longer to continue to fire D-Cordinaters. Ultimately he had to answer for it.

Yes, the O looked like the future, but I think the character flaws in our budding stars would have doomed us anyway. Cutler and Marshall are very talented athletes....the best. In the end, they are not loyal to the team, and were not the kind of leaders that win championships!

Maybe with their new scenery, they will grow up and change, but i have my doubts.

I can't believe you said that G, that Cutler's scenery would help, they can not even get the kid a receiver let alone a decent offensive line...I feel for him. At least Marshall went to a team that is on the rise, though I do worry about how the Miami night-life will effect him, no matter what Irving says.

Like I said, my issue is not that we're getting rid of the talent, but that we're not replacing it...

Nomad
04-15-2010, 09:46 AM
Well, what do you purpose Nomad, we take it to the octagon and have a free for all, no holds barred street fight? I'm game...

;)

What do you want me to say threatening a fist fight over the interweb!! If that's how you feel I live in Minot ND, look me up! Other than that, there is not much else to say!!

Lancane
04-15-2010, 09:50 AM
What do you want me to say threatening a fist fight over the interweb!! If that's how you feel I live in Minot ND, look me up! Other than that, there is not much else to say!!

That wasn't a threat...lol. I meant for the forum in general, what do you purpose, that it's settled elsewhere in a no-holds barred fight! That's why so many people discuss or view their opinions on here...

Sorry you took it the wrong way, but if you really want to fight me or anyone on this forum I more then happy to give my address.

:coffee:

Tempus Fugit
04-15-2010, 09:56 AM
I know we all have our love for the Broncos. And each of us has a right to our own opinions on how the "boy who would be coach" has faired so far in Denver.

But seriously folks, enough is enough. Let it ride out. See how this all unfolds.

You're wasting your time. The anti-McDaniels people aren't where they are based upon logic or reasoning. It's all emotional with them. McDaniels could have a 19-0 season, Shanahan could publicly state that he'd been phoning it in in Denver, Cutler could come forward and state that everything had been his fault and that he'd been a pain in the ass even under Shanahan, and Marshall could state that he loves McDaniels but just couldn't remain in Denver because of prior events, and the anti-McDaniels people would chalk the season up to luck and claim that McDaniels somehow forced those people to make the statements.

guitarj
04-15-2010, 09:58 AM
I can't believe you said that G, that Cutler's scenery would help, they can not even get the kid a receiver let alone a decent offensive line...I feel for him. At least Marshall went to a team that is on the rise, though I do worry about how the Miami night-life will effect him, no matter what Irving says.

Like I said, my issue is not that we're getting rid of the talent, but that we're not replacing it...

I once had high hopes for Cutler. I dont feel for him now though. He made his bed. Archie Manning never won anything, but he is still considered a great player. I dont see that quality in Cutler at this point.

I am talking about heart.... not physical gifts and head knowlege. Maybe these guys will mature and develop and become gifted leaders and team players, but it just couldnt happen in Denver

The Broncos are headed in a new direction. I will get on board. Like I said, I want to see a new Rod Smith or 2... or 3. I would take him over Marshall any day, and we know who is more gifted physically

Nomad
04-15-2010, 09:59 AM
That wasn't a threat...lol. I meant for the forum in general, what do you purpose, that it's settled elsewhere in a no-holds barred fight! That's why so many people discuss or view their opinions on here...

Sorry you took it the wrong way, but if you really want to fight me or anyone on this forum I more then happy to give my address.

:coffee:

I don't beleive the BRONCOS are worth fighting over but you made the initial threat!! I'm in my 20s anymore full of testostrone but I took your post as a threat and made the suggestion if you feel that storngly about this is where I live. I guess we'd could go back and forth like adolescents .


It's not opinions anymore it's flat out speculation whether the team is going down the shit hole! After the season and McDaniels has failed miserablly then I could understand the hate and crying until then it's pure overdramatizing. Whether McD/Xanders/Bowlen has this team going into the right direction, no one knows, so I'm going to wait and see and not stress myself out over shit I can't control!!

Nomad
04-15-2010, 10:02 AM
You're wasting your time. The anti-McDaniels people aren't where they are based upon logic or reasoning. It's all emotional with them. McDaniels could have a 19-0 season, Shanahan could publicly state that he'd been phoning it in in Denver, Cutler could come forward and state that everything had been his fault and that he'd been a pain in the ass even under Shanahan, and Marshall could state that he loves McDaniels but just couldn't remain in Denver because of prior events, and the anti-McDaniels people would chalk the season up to luck and claim that McDaniels somehow forced those people to make the statements.

Like I said before, it's all about them proving themselves right. And many of those same people would rather see the BRONCOS fail and McDaniels succeed for their own gratification.

atwater27
04-15-2010, 10:04 AM
You're wasting your time. How so Mr. Fugit?The anti-McDaniels people aren't where they are based upon logic or reasoning. Oh, here we go genius.It's all emotional with them. And you know this how? McDaniels could have a 19-0 season, Except that isn't the case, only in FugitlandShanahan could publicly state that he'd been phoning it in in Denver, Cutler could come forward and state that everything had been his fault and that he'd been a pain in the ass even under Shanahan, and Marshall could state that he loves McDaniels but just couldn't remain in Denver because of prior events, and the anti-McDaniels people would chalk the season up to luck and claim that McDaniels somehow forced those people to make the statements.

Actually, if Denver starts winning, I will give McDaniels all the accolades he deserves. I will eat my words and then some. However, I don't agree with 90 percent of his decisions. But I know I am wasting my time speaking at you and your brethren. You see, you guys are so blindly beholden and invested in a TOTALLY UNPROVEN head coach that even if he goes 0-16 after whiffing in the draft, you'll still find a way to blame it on Shanahan and Cutler.:welcome:

BroncoAV06
04-15-2010, 10:04 AM
Its part of being a journalist, opinions piss people off, I am of course a Broncos fan but when I am talking about them on the air you don't always drink orange kool-aid.

Nothing wrong with being against an artical but to want to blow someone up and call them a hack is weak.

silkamilkamonico
04-15-2010, 10:10 AM
The only thing that will disappoint me is the record, which has yet to happen.

McDaniels finished 8-8 with Kyle f'n Orton and during a change of complete flux on both the offense and the defense.

I was getting tired of Shanahan's underachieving seasons, and any change was welcomed as far as I was concerned. I think I would be more pissed off if our offense was elite that McDaniels dismantled, but considering we were only average in the areas that mattered, and gave the football away like free donuts for homeless cops, it doesn't concern me.

Lancane
04-15-2010, 10:10 AM
Like I said before, it's all about them proving themselves right. And many of those same people would rather see the BRONCOS fail and McDaniels succeed for their own gratification.

That's where people are wrong with me...I don't want him to fail, but I see him doing so. I want McDaniels to succeed, he's not though, at least not in my eyes. What he's doing is ridding himself of those that 'he' feels he can not handle, but as a coach at any level you have to deal with the troubles of the players. Belichick, Parcells, Johnson, Gruden, Shanahan...all of them have to be tough and at times soft, a lot of these players are kids in their own right with checkered pasts and sometimes you need to be harsh and change them or be open to listen and maybe just help them when they need it.

I don't think McDaniels has the temperment to be that kind of coach, or to be fair he has not shown it. And if you feel that there is no other route but to move the player, then at least try and fill the void with talent and not just another ass-kisser looking for work.

silkamilkamonico
04-15-2010, 10:14 AM
I once had high hopes for Cutler. I dont feel for him now though. He made his bed. Archie Manning never won anything, but he is still considered a great player. I dont see that quality in Cutler at this point.


I completely agree, and it's more of the same in Chicago. He's shown an inability to lead, an inability to not turn the ball over in the redzone, and an inability to play well in big games, which was his problem in Denver.

Cutler is an average QB in the NFL. There are 12-15 QB's better than him, and there are 3-5 QB's younger then him that are better. He doesn't even own the "the best young QB in the NFL" label anymore, and that is the general concensus around the NFL.

jlarsiii
04-15-2010, 10:25 AM
You're wasting your time. The anti-McDaniels people aren't where they are based upon logic or reasoning. It's all emotional with them. McDaniels could have a 19-0 season, Shanahan could publicly state that he'd been phoning it in in Denver, Cutler could come forward and state that everything had been his fault and that he'd been a pain in the ass even under Shanahan, and Marshall could state that he loves McDaniels but just couldn't remain in Denver because of prior events, and the anti-McDaniels people would chalk the season up to luck and claim that McDaniels somehow forced those people to make the statements.

That is asinine. Just because I don't agree with the Marshall move doesn't make me a McD hater. I am just not happy with that move, and I don't see how it is improving the team at this point in time.

I do not like being stereotyped in this way. I am not whining. I am voicing my opinion. Just like you voice yours. I don't understand how both sides can't voice their opinion without being denigrated by the other side.

silkamilkamonico
04-15-2010, 10:28 AM
I'm a McDaniels anti-hater, and I hate the Brandon Marshall move.

broncofaninfla
04-15-2010, 10:32 AM
I've been a Broncos fan since 77. This is the first time I can ever recall a coach coming in an alienating so many people. In two years, most of my favorite have been traded. Supposedly they don't fit Mcd's "system". I saw the "system" last year and was anything but impressed. To date, I am not impressed with Mcd as a gameplanner or play caller. I'm also not impressed with his offensive scheme, personnel decisions or his people skills. I do like his drive, fire and passion but that doesn't make him a capable head coach. I feel he is learning his trade at the expense of this franchise and I can't say I'm happy about that either. But I am a fan and I will pull for Denver no matter who is calling the plays or who is under center. After his end of the season presser I was optimistic about the future, some of that has slipped for me but I am still holding out some hope. There are a lot of different personalities on this board with a lot different views and opinions, each of us expressing those differently but in the end we are all Broncos fans. We all want to win, some members are convinced we are headed in the right direction, some aren't. In the end it's not worth getting upset about and just realize in teh bigger picture we all just want to win....

G_Money
04-15-2010, 10:38 AM
That's where people are wrong with me...I don't want him to fail, but I see him doing so. I want McDaniels to succeed, he's not though, at least not in my eyes. What he's doing is ridding himself of those that 'he' feels he can not handle, but as a coach at any level you have to deal with the troubles of the players. Belichick, Parcells, Johnson, Gruden, Shanahan...all of them have to be tough and at times soft, a lot of these players are kids in their own right with checkered pasts and sometimes you need to be harsh and change them or be open to listen and maybe just help them when they need it.

I don't think McDaniels has the temperment to be that kind of coach, or to be fair he has not shown it. And if you feel that there is no other route but to move the player, then at least try and fill the void with talent and not just another ass-kisser looking for work.

Parcells ALWAYS cleans house when he takes over a place. There are people who have the personality to play for him, and those that just don't. And he gets rid of the guys who can't put up with him, and give their best effort for him.

But his eye for talent and toughness is unquestioned. McDaniels doesn't have that rep yet - how could he? So when HE clears out an offense put together by a guy who sucks at drafting defense but excels at knowing what pieces he can put together to make a top-5 offense, it creates dissention.

When that coach admits he was woefully underprepared for the last draft in which we took a DB who got benched with a first round pick and a blocking TE who couldn't get on the field with a trade up to the 2nd, it makes some of us nervous to add picks.

I'm also tired of the hate. I don't post much because I'm a busy mofo but also because there's no point. Nobody wants to talk, they just want to yell.

But people draw lines. McDaniels certainly does, and he manages to polarize the rest of us. The way to bring the majority of the dissenters back to the pack is to win. Josh hasn't failed yet. He hasn't succeeded yet.

But without some wins, and fast, we're gonna have trouble reuniting the fanbase any time soon.

Let's hope we can have a draft that doesn't include massive reaches and hope we can get some production out of the younguns we add. Adding some productive players (or even hopefully-productive) would help mollify at least some portion of folks before training camp.

And I for one would love that.

~G

G_Money
04-15-2010, 10:40 AM
You're wasting your time. The anti-McDaniels people aren't where they are based upon logic or reasoning. It's all emotional with them. McDaniels could have a 19-0 season, Shanahan could publicly state that he'd been phoning it in in Denver, Cutler could come forward and state that everything had been his fault and that he'd been a pain in the ass even under Shanahan, and Marshall could state that he loves McDaniels but just couldn't remain in Denver because of prior events, and the anti-McDaniels people would chalk the season up to luck and claim that McDaniels somehow forced those people to make the statements.

I'm curious to see what you say if McDaniels actually fails. It should be interesting.

~G

jhns
04-15-2010, 10:52 AM
I mostly lurk on this forum but I just want to say a few things.

It is funny as hell that all of these fans actually make excuses and defend a guy that is making this franchise into one of the jokes of the league. He has shown he is good in free agency. That is it. He can't deal with players. He can't draft for crap. He acts like he is playing Madden with these trades. His own hand picked coordinator didn't even want to work with him after a single season. Keep supporting cancer just because your favorite team has it. That really makes cancer ok!

Buff
04-15-2010, 10:54 AM
I'm a bit of a hardliner when it comes to this stuff...

I respect other peoples opinions but I don't understand them. I can't relate to losing interest or being alienated by the coach. I don't understand the cut off the nose to spite the face mentality. I think a lot of people buy too much into the narrative created by the national media. I don't know, I think McD is a much smarter guy than me and I trust his vision.

atwater27
04-15-2010, 11:04 AM
I think McD is a much smarter guy than me and I trust his vision. Really? have you met him? Why would you sell yourself short? How could you blindly trust someone you haven't met? Myself, I can be optimistic about a prospect or a coach, but trust their vision? Not without some sort of history to judge from. And McDaniels is a rook.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 11:06 AM
Has anyone realized that the last year of Shanahan's tenure was the most content season we have had in the fandom in a long while? It's true, we looked to becoming another juggernaut offensive team, even without the defense people were excited, then we were shocked to hear that Shanahan was fired...but we were still excited, the majority was pumped. Bowlen, Xander, Goodman and Ellis were in the 'news' - "Cutler is the face of this franchise", "We're looking for a coach that can make this unit win"...

Everyone was psyched, I don't care if you were a Shanahan supporter or not, there was the future...we had one of the best young offenses in the league, we needed to fix the F'n defense. Everyone had an opinion, and McDaniels 'Who I was a huge supporter for' was not the favored, Spagnuolo was, even what's his face from Tampa Bay...Raheem Morris was more favored then Josh. I waivered a little, because the other coach I would loved to of had was Jason Garret, and now I wish we would have hired him! - We wanted to improve, we wanted or the majority wanted a better defense or the 3-4 brought back.

As one of his former supporters let me tell you, I'm starting to hate him, he has done little besides fix the defense and dissmantled one of the better young offenses in the league, yet everyone buys into his 'team' plan, and while the philosophy is sound, he pushed players away himself, if he didn't want them and they were not 'his' guys then get rid of them? Jason Garrett and Steve Spagnuolo, even Morris wanted the gig because of the offensive foundation we had installed! He did not make us better, he made the defense better and there is no way in hell the offense is as good as it was.

So we're not allowed to hate him? We don't have a reason to? -- To me, the trading of Cutler was like someone taking over in Green Bay or Indianapolis and getting rid of Farve or Manning during their early years...it was a no-no. But I gave him the benefit of the doubt, what he did by freakin' lying outright was a no-no, but I was at that time willing to forgive him...figuring he would get Sanchez or another franchise-esque quarterback in the draft, or something...but no, we got Kyle Orton and he and some other's expected the fandom to whole heartidly accept him...Bullshit! That was sort of my straw and the trend continued, yes Marshall was an airhead and made some pinnacle freaking mistakes, but he was one of the better wideouts in the game and a lot of that had to do with the issues going on with this team, the trading of Cutler and other reasons. But McDaniels' does not have the patience to deal with troubled stars, that makes him an immature idiot and at this point... I have no faith in him, I hate Orton...but if he doesn't pull his head out of his ass, which is not likely, then what is dislike and faithlessness will become hate quite quickly...


Well said, 'cane. I think you hit the nail on the head, for me.

We were EXCITED about our up and rising YOUNG offense that had so MUCH rising potential it was OOOOOZING. LT, QB, 2 WRs, TE, RT.... things were coming together and everyone just kept saying 'Man if we could just get that defense to even MID range!!' Now.... the offense is a complete mess. No stars. The talent is dripping away at massive rates, and we have Orton and Quinn to show for it (Oh, and Gaffney).

Buff
04-15-2010, 11:07 AM
Really? have you met him? Why would you sell yourself short? How could you blindly trust someone you haven't met? Myself, I can be optimistic about a prospect or a coach, but trust their vision? Not without some sort of history to judge from. And McDaniels is a rook.

Because I'm not so egotystical as to assume that I - Joe fan off the street - knows more than someone who has worked alongside hall of famers for the better part of the last decade. I assume Joe Ellis and Pat Bowlen weren't born yesterday when they gave him the keys to the corvette. I understand that this franchise has been marred by mediocrity for the last decade, so I am perfectly ok with blowing up the whole operation.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 11:08 AM
I'm a bit of a hardliner when it comes to this stuff...

I don't understand the cut off the nose to spite the face mentality.

Honestly, Buff..... thats how I feel our coach has reacted by trading away two of our best players and biggest stars.

Buff
04-15-2010, 11:19 AM
Honestly, Buff..... thats how I feel our coach has reacted by trading away two of our best players and biggest stars.

And I respect your opinion... But the way I look at it, he looked at two high profile "stars" who set a poor example for the rest of thet team. When your biggest stars are your hardest workers, you create a winning climate. When your biggest stars exhibit a lackadaisical attitude or constantly get into trouble it creates a double standard and a climate of mediocrity.

Quite simply, they were poor long term investments. Just my 2 cents.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 11:20 AM
I've been a Broncos fan since 77. This is the first time I can ever recall a coach coming in an alienating so many people. In two years, most of my favorite have been traded. Supposedly they don't fit Mcd's "system". I saw the "system" last year and was anything but impressed. To date, I am not impressed with Mcd as a gameplanner or play caller. I'm also not impressed with his offensive scheme, personnel decisions or his people skills. I do like his drive, fire and passion but that doesn't make him a capable head coach. I feel he is learning his trade at the expense of this franchise and I can't say I'm happy about that either. But I am a fan and I will pull for Denver no matter who is calling the plays or who is under center. After his end of the season presser I was optimistic about the future, some of that has slipped for me but I am still holding out some hope. There are a lot of different personalities on this board with a lot different views and opinions, each of us expressing those differently but in the end we are all Broncos fans. We all want to win, some members are convinced we are headed in the right direction, some aren't. In the end it's not worth getting upset about and just realize in teh bigger picture we all just want to win....

I think you touched on my biggest concern.

McD is young and learning to be a HC. Most HCs this young fail at their first coaching job. So where does that leave us after he leaves in a year or even two? Lets say (and I'm not proclaiming or predicting) he is fired after this season. Wow.... we lose that kind of talent in 2 years while this kid learns how to deal with people? Talk about a major catastrophe.

Also.. considering it takes a MAJOR defense to take a team to the SUper Bowl without a top talent at QB.... how long is this project we are looking at? Are we truly to believe that we have an elite defense that is strong enough to 'support' an Orton?

So if McD isn't gone this coming year, and we lose .. say... Dawkins to retirement, and some other player due to injury (happens almost every year with someone).....where are we now? We've created MORE holes to fill than we've patched. The sieve is getting worse.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 11:22 AM
And I respect your opinion... But the way I look at it, he looked at two high profile "stars" who set a poor example for the rest of thet team. When your biggest stars are your hardest workers, you create a winning climate. When your biggest stars exhibit a lackadaisical attitude or constantly get into trouble it creates a double standard and a climate of mediocrity.

Quite simply, they were poor long term investments. Just my 2 cents.

I think Marshall and Cutler were two of the hardest workers in the offseason. But..... like you said. to which their own :beer:

pnbronco
04-15-2010, 11:23 AM
Last time I checked we had a 8-8 season. Which ended up being pretty much the same for the last 3 years. Since we were in a building year with so many new changes I didn't really see the problem with all that, but that's just me.

In the last month I've faced multiple blizzards that I've had to drive in, my husband facing a lay off, actually getting laid off but rehired a couple of days later and my Father being hospitalized twice with emergency surgery last Sat. So this whole Bronco thing is so far down on my radar these days. Also I still have a business to run.

I'm like G I would like to take my breaks from life to come here to discuss one of my 2 favorite teams. Since most of the time all I see is yelling I go to the Hockey side and discuss my other favorite team.

For the last 25 years I've supported this team and will continue to do so today, tomorrow and most likely for many years to come. Coach McDaniels is a very smart man and knows a whole lot more about football and the business side than I do. Will he work out I have no idea, but until he leaves I will support him as the Coach of the Broncos as I have all Coaches before him.

jhns
04-15-2010, 11:32 AM
And I respect your opinion... But the way I look at it, he looked at two high profile "stars" who set a poor example for the rest of thet team. When your biggest stars are your hardest workers, you create a winning climate. When your biggest stars exhibit a lackadaisical attitude or constantly get into trouble it creates a double standard and a climate of mediocrity.

Quite simply, they were poor long term investments. Just my 2 cents.

Well to bad for you, we did get rid of the hardest worker when we gave away Cutler. He never had an offseason that he wasn't here learning new schemes or taking receivers off to Atlanta to work out. That is something we didn't have before Cutler and don't have now. He was always a first in last out kind of guy. We gave him away because he (as a very young man) acted childish over trade rumors. What a joke....

Also, you say you aren't arrogant enough to think you are smarter than McDaniels. Well I don't think I'm smarter than Bowlen, Shanahan, McDaniels, or Elway when it comes to QB play. Every one of these guys has said Cutler is going to be a star. McDaniels himself said that it would never benifit this team to get rid of Cutler. That was just before he traded Cutler. He didn't say it would benifit the team if Cutler was immature and he could get some picks. Even McDaniels knows he is screwing up this teams future. With the way he can build a defense and work free agency, he could have been great here if he kept that offense together. Instead the offensive genious turns our good offense into junk in a single offseason.

Dreadnought
04-15-2010, 11:33 AM
He broke it, he bought it. I only differ with guys I respect a lot (this means you, G-Money) in that I think he has already failed. Done deal. The 2-8 finale to the end of last season was humiliating and due almost entirely to McDaniels dismal personnel skills - to include his affinity for larding up the roster with boot lickers and chair sniffers, his dodgy personnel decisions throughout the year, his useless offensive system, and his relentless blame shifting.

2009 was eventually the worst I can remember as a fan once we got past the first 6 weeks. Worse than 1982. Worse than 1999. We demonstrated we actually have no toughness, no character, and little smarts. We became an NFL bottom feeder in that time, and I think we're stuck there until we show this bum the door.

pnbronco
04-15-2010, 11:34 AM
And I respect your opinion... But the way I look at it, he looked at two high profile "stars" who set a poor example for the rest of the team. When your biggest stars are your hardest workers, you create a winning climate. When your biggest stars exhibit a lackadaisical attitude or constantly get into trouble it creates a double standard and a climate of mediocrity.

Quite simply, they were poor long term investments. Just my 2 cents.

That the way I see it Buff. Elway, Plummer and Orton made homes here in Denver to do all the OTA's plus work out with any and all receivers that wanted to stay in Denver. Plummer home was always Idaho and after his first year he knew he needed more work with Rod Smith and some of the other receivers, so he bought a home in Denver for just that reason.

All the QB's gave up their day off to study film with the Coach's this last season. From the beginning of camp I have seen positive changes in the TEAM. How it all plays out is something I'm willing to wait and see.

Buff
04-15-2010, 11:44 AM
It is funny that people like Clay feel like the world is collapsing around them while people like myself have never been happier with the status quo. Different strokes.

Dreadnought
04-15-2010, 11:48 AM
Lets leave P&R in P&R. Please restrict all ranting and raving in this area to Broncos related grievances. There's enough to go around :D

Northman
04-15-2010, 11:52 AM
I don't understand why mike was given a pass for ten years for his uber poor decisions on personnel (excepting 06 and to me that was somewhat debateable) yet are willing to crucify Josh for cleaning up mikes mess.

Yes mike won a couple of rings but had he done lately. Knowing he would have douched the defense at least on more year, the playoffs were not going to happen last year either. Or if they did it would have been one and done. AGAIN.

I do not get it either.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel


Probably the same reason Pitt kept Cowher for so long, Titans keeping Fisher. Basically i came down to consistency and Shanahan gave that whether it was just in the regular season or not. Would you have really preferred to be bottom feeders like Detroit, Oakland, or Cleveland? I know i wouldnt. Its not hard to look at Shanny's last year and be impressed with the offense. Yea, we didnt score a lot of TD's like we should have but it was a very young team in terms of experience.

When Shanahan was fired i was somewhat excited to see what a new coach could do. Especially in terms of discipline, scheme, attitude, etc. Some of those things i think Shanahan lost especially his ability to be a GM and coach at the same time. I had Shanahan been a little more humble and maybe relinquished his GM duties (and get rid of Slowik) he probably would still be HC here.

But, with that said you really cant tell me that Josh couldnt get Jay to flourish in his system. Im all for setting the standards of how you want your team ran but why lie about it to player to start with? So you took a phone call, why even lie that you took the call? Doesnt make a lot of sense. Even though in the end it was Jay who couldnt get over it you still have to question McD's intentions there. But, you asked why McD isnt given the same measuring stick that Shanny was the answer is very simple. Bowlen wants to WIN. Not win 10 years from now, but right now. He brought Josh in because he believed he could get Denver back into the hunt soon. Josh did some nice things last year but also allowed some bad things to rear its ugly head again.

Although im quite tired of Brandon's antics i do have to wonder how we will get his type of production at that position now that he is gone. But the bottom line is McD will not have a long leash like Shanahan did because Shanny got Pat and John the one thing they coveted most. A Ring. Had Shanny not gotten those rings he may have only lasted a couple more years after those seasons. But winning the championship goes a long way so i dont blame Bowlen for sticking with him for as long as he did. But now Bowlen wants that feeling again but he expects it soon considering Shanny couldnt get back there.

atwater27
04-15-2010, 11:52 AM
It is funny that people like Clay feel like the world is collapsing around them while people like myself have never been happier with the status quo. Different strokes.

please.

pnbronco
04-15-2010, 11:55 AM
Lets leave P&R in P&R. Please restrict all ranting and raving in this area to Broncos related grievances. There's enough to go around :D

:laugh:...you think...........:laugh:

Timmy!
04-15-2010, 11:56 AM
Buff in on fire today. :salute:

Tempus Fugit
04-15-2010, 11:58 AM
Actually, if Denver starts winning, I will give McDaniels all the accolades he deserves. I will eat my words and then some. However, I don't agree with 90 percent of his decisions. But I know I am wasting my time speaking at you and your brethren. You see, you guys are so blindly beholden and invested in a TOTALLY UNPROVEN head coach that even if he goes 0-16 after whiffing in the draft, you'll still find a way to blame it on Shanahan and Cutler.:welcome:

1.) The team won 8 games last season against a tough schedule and with a new coach implementing a new system on both offense and defense, with a WR1 that was pissed off about something that had nothing to do with the new coach, with the necessity of having to trade a QB who was butthurt about losing his earlier coach and O.C. and with it being his first year as a head coach on the NFL level. That 8 game victory total was the same as Shanahan had gotten the year before, and that .500 winning percentage is the same that Shanahan and Cutler had managed over the last three years of their collaboration. I don't see you snacking on even a syllable, never mind eating your words.

2.) Go back and look at my posts. I don't think you'll find a whole lot of Shanahan blaming. Sometimes even great coaches need a change or a break. That seems to have been the case with Shanahan, for whatever reason.

3.) Cutler is not worth discussing. The weeping and gnashing of teeth over him last year was ridiculous. His loss was going to kill the Broncos in the standings, and the team was going to be much worse than they'd been the year before because it was Orton, instead of Cutler, under center. Instead, the team matched the last season's win totals. Again, I don't see those people snacking on a single syllable, so why bother talking about him when it's clearly not going to be a rational discussion with his sycophants?

4.) McDaniels has shown that he can take a team in his first season as head coach while replacing a highly respected coach and completely altering the team's systems and personnel, and still match that former coach's last year win total. That's only TOTALLY UNPROVEN to people who aren't being rational and reasonable on the subject.

5.) While you disagreeing with 90% of McDaniels' decisions is your right, you making that claim reinforces my point about the anti-McDaniels crowd. There's no way in hell he's had a 90% error rate in his decision making since taking over the Broncos.

pnbronco
04-15-2010, 12:03 PM
Buff in on fire today. :salute:

I know, he's making me proud.

IMO staying here in Denver as a QB making it be know that you will work with ALL WR that want to stay and work out. Working out with your Coaches and studying film in the off season as Elway, Plummer and Orton have done, but did so without a camera on them does make you a leader and hard worker.

DenBronx
04-15-2010, 12:07 PM
If your a true fan you just want to win, regardless of how you feel about McD.

Do I agree with him? No. Do I like him as a person? No. Does his lip smacking in interviews annoy the shit out of me? Yes.

Even when we was 6-0 at one point last year I still think Cutler would have been better for this team long term. If you can't plug in a guy with that kind of talent and make him fit in your system then you better evaluate your thinking AND your system. If you can't get a rookie that had 90+ catches(Royal) involved on Sundays then you better evaluate your play calling. If you can't seem to get past your ego and keep an ALL PRO WR then you better evaluate your head.

Bottom line is, Josh has to make it to the playoffs this year. Cuz his shit does stink even if some of you like sitting in it.

Buff
04-15-2010, 12:12 PM
Buff in on fire today. :salute:

I'm making a big push for the fan of the month award.

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 12:16 PM
OOOOOOOOOH YESSIREE - THIS DEFINITELY IS A TEAM LEADER

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6264363/14344233

When the Denver Broncos stated publicly several days ago that they were going to attempt to trade Jay Cutler, several Broncos players said they reached out to Cutler. They called. He didn't return their calls.

Some tried again. Some tried for several days. Nothing. Cutler blew them off, according to several NFL sources.

"Jay just sort of disappeared," said one Broncos player. "None of the team leaders could reach him."

Maybe once Cutler knew he was being traded, he didn't care. But it's an odd approach for Cutler to take in what was truly an odd last few weeks for Cutler and the team.

It's one thing for Cutler to stop speaking to management. It's another to apparently not return the calls of fellow NFL players.

One player said that some of the Broncos considered Cutler a friend and thought it was extremely bizarre he didn't get back to them.

Were the players I spoke to complaining? No. They like Cutler. They were just making an observation and saying they had rarely seen a player do anything like this.

They just thought it was very...different.

Considering what Chicago gave up to get Cutler, it's a tremendous risk trading for him, especially since Cutler is apparently extremely thin skinned and a tad odd.

The Bears now have one talented -- but extremely weird -- quarterback on their team.

Good luck, Chicago.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 12:27 PM
I don't understand why mike was given a pass for ten years for his uber poor decisions on personnel (excepting 06 and to me that was somewhat debateable) yet are willing to crucify Josh for cleaning up mikes mess.

Yes mike won a couple of rings but had he done lately. Knowing he would have douched the defense at least on more year, the playoffs were not going to happen last year either. Or if they did it would have been one and done. AGAIN.

I do not get it either.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

I was a huge Shanahan fan (except for some of his #1 draft choices) and was
shocked and upset when Mr. Bowlen fired him. When McDaniels was hired, I was
still upset over Shanny.

However, I made up my mind to give McDaniels a chance to see what he can do.

After one season, I am encouraged. McDaniels took charge. Yes, a lot of people
don't like that: They say he hasn't earned the "pedigree" to exert that kind of
authority. How, then, does one go about earning that "pedigree"? I like the "it's
my way or highway" approach . . . someone has to be boss. It naturally followed
that it would estrange the prima donnas on the team, and they would leave.
Good. Because chemistry on the team will lead to more wins than one self-
centered superstar.

What I have realized since is that Shanny had gutted and trashed the defense.
Good DCs were jettisoned as scapegoats for the desperate lack of talent. And,
toward the end of 2007, even the offense was going south, compliments of
those prima donnas.

The team was plummeting toward the bottom of the Division. Shades of the 1960s.

I'm not discouraged. I'm excited. The Broncos are fast forming into a team other
teams do not want to play. That's what I want to see from a team I am rooting
for: Smash-Mouth, In-Your-Face, Take-No-Prisoners. Team colors might be
Orange & Blue, but I want them known as Black & Blue!

-----

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 12:35 PM
Probably the same reason Pitt kept Cowher for so long, Titans keeping Fisher. Basically i came down to consistency and Shanahan gave that whether it was just in the regular season or not. Would you have really preferred to be bottom feeders like Detroit, Oakland, or Cleveland? I know i wouldnt. Its not hard to look at Shanny's last year and be impressed with the offense. Yea, we didnt score a lot of TD's like we should have but it was a very young team in terms of experience.

When Shanahan was fired i was somewhat excited to see what a new coach could do. Especially in terms of discipline, scheme, attitude, etc. Some of those things i think Shanahan lost especially his ability to be a GM and coach at the same time. I had Shanahan been a little more humble and maybe relinquished his GM duties (and get rid of Slowik) he probably would still be HC here.

But, with that said you really cant tell me that Josh couldnt get Jay to flourish in his system. Im all for setting the standards of how you want your team ran but why lie about it to player to start with? So you took a phone call, why even lie that you took the call? Doesnt make a lot of sense. Even though in the end it was Jay who couldnt get over it you still have to question McD's intentions there. But, you asked why McD isnt given the same measuring stick that Shanny was the answer is very simple. Bowlen wants to WIN. Not win 10 years from now, but right now. He brought Josh in because he believed he could get Denver back into the hunt soon. Josh did some nice things last year but also allowed some bad things to rear its ugly head again.

Although im quite tired of Brandon's antics i do have to wonder how we will get his type of production at that position now that he is gone. But the bottom line is McD will not have a long leash like Shanahan did because Shanny got Pat and John the one thing they coveted most. A Ring. Had Shanny not gotten those rings he may have only lasted a couple more years after those seasons. But winning the championship goes a long way so i dont blame Bowlen for sticking with him for as long as he did. But now Bowlen wants that feeling again but he expects it soon considering Shanny couldnt get back there.


Plus.. when Bowlen brought the young "offensive GURU" in as the HC, he did so knowing he had a lot of young offensive talent. Cutler, Marshall, Clady and Harris, Hillis, Royal and Shceffler. Figuring the offensive mind would take them, that young flourishing talent, to the next level. I doubt that Bowlen envisioned that the entire offense would be dismantled and having to rebuild what was looking like to be one of the best YOUNG offensive units in the NFL.... with the potential of SEVERAL Super Stars all growing together ( much like you saw in Indy).

So to go along with you point. When you tear what was there, up.... you better win in a hurry to show that it was the right thing to do. Tht doesn't buy you more time.

Northman
04-15-2010, 12:40 PM
Plus.. when Bowlen brought the young "offensive GURU" in as the HC, he did so knowing he had a lot of young offensive talent. Cutler, Marshall, Clady and Harris, Hillis, Royal and Shceffler. Figuring the offensive mind would take them, that young flourishing talent, to the next level. I doubt that Bowlen envisioned that the entire offense would be dismantled and having to rebuild what was looking like to be one of the best YOUNG offensive units in the NFL.... with the potential of SEVERAL Super Stars all growing together ( much like you saw in Indy).

So to go along with you point. When you tear what was there, up.... you better win in a hurry to show that it was the right thing to do. Tht doesn't buy you more time.

Yea, which is probably why Bowlen wanted to meet with Jay but got ignored. This is why i cant put the final onus on McD. Jay had an opportunity to come and talk to Pat about it and im sure Pat would of gotten it straightened out. Its unforutante it happened but your right, now McD has to make it work and get the team winning doing it his way. Time will tell but i think McD missed a grand opportunity by allowing and not utilizing the talent that was there for sure. :confused:

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 12:50 PM
Yea, which is probably why Bowlen wanted to meet with Jay but got ignored. This is why i cant put the final onus on McD. Jay had an opportunity to come and talk to Pat about it and im sure Pat would of gotten it straightened out. Its unforutante it happened but your right, now McD has to make it work and get the team winning doing it his way. Time will tell but i think McD missed a grand opportunity by allowing and not utilizing the talent that was there for sure. :confused:

I do have an article (I think its saved on the home computer) from a respectable source, that says he had talked to 'several' sources that said Cutler did call Bowlen.. MORE than once. So I think that entire story is messed up, and lies somewhere in between. I think the entire "he's a baby" thing was absolutely exaggerated by the media, and then REALLY exaggerated by those on these boards.

But as you said. There has been a lot of lip smacking and lying going on, and much has come from the McD base (as you said in your last post). McD admited that he didn't just pick up the phone (as he first said)... and it was actively searching to trade for Cassel. We don't know what was said (or how it was said) in taht meeting with McD and Cutler. We do know that on the TV interview, McD had a chance to say (even if he wanted to simply say the right thing to fix the problem) that Jay was our QB of the future. He refused to say it.... as if he was just too stubborn to fix fences when given the chance. If he did that on TV, I'm sure it was the same way in person. Now... I do say this and TRULY understand that Cutler is not at all, without fault. I do. I just still have the perspective that I want my HC to be the 'bigger man' than some 24 yr old kid.

But the point is.... McD was intitially brought in to lead a star filled offense, and FIX the defense. When you explode the one thing that was the rising star (the offense) of the team...... you need to show that you can replace that talent, quickly. As you said, McD wasn't brought in to be given a 10 year project.

silkamilkamonico
04-15-2010, 12:53 PM
OOOOOOOOOH YESSIREE - THIS DEFINITELY IS A TEAM LEADER

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6264363/14344233

When the Denver Broncos stated publicly several days ago that they were going to attempt to trade Jay Cutler, several Broncos players said they reached out to Cutler. They called. He didn't return their calls.

Some tried again. Some tried for several days. Nothing. Cutler blew them off, according to several NFL sources.

"Jay just sort of disappeared," said one Broncos player. "None of the team leaders could reach him."

Maybe once Cutler knew he was being traded, he didn't care. But it's an odd approach for Cutler to take in what was truly an odd last few weeks for Cutler and the team.

It's one thing for Cutler to stop speaking to management. It's another to apparently not return the calls of fellow NFL players.

One player said that some of the Broncos considered Cutler a friend and thought it was extremely bizarre he didn't get back to them.

Were the players I spoke to complaining? No. They like Cutler. They were just making an observation and saying they had rarely seen a player do anything like this.

They just thought it was very...different.

Considering what Chicago gave up to get Cutler, it's a tremendous risk trading for him, especially since Cutler is apparently extremely thin skinned and a tad odd.

The Bears now have one talented -- but extremely weird -- quarterback on their team.

Good luck, Chicago.

I'll speak for the Cutler lovers on this board, because we all know they aren't going to respond to this post.

"Jay Cutler has a stronger arm than John Elway. And he puts up huge numbers in my yardage only fantasy football league. Who cares if he hasn't won a meaningful game since high school, sucks in the redzone, can't "lead" worth shit, and doesn't give a **** about the guys he plays with.

He's got a stronger arm than John Elway, ok..!"

Dreadnought
04-15-2010, 01:02 PM
I'll speak for the Cutler lovers on this board, because we all know they aren't going to respond to this post.

"Jay Cutler has a stronger arm than John Elway. And he puts up huge numbers in my yardage only fantasy football league. Who cares if he hasn't won a meaningful game since high school, sucks in the redzone, can't "lead" worth shit, and doesn't give a **** about the guys he plays with.

He's got a stronger arm than John Elway, ok..!"

I'll respond only to say you won't get many responses because it seems you are frankly obsessed with Jay Cutler. Few others here are discussing him, and I haven't mentioned him at all.

Northman
04-15-2010, 01:04 PM
I do have an article (I think its saved on the home computer) from a respectable source, that says he had talked to 'several' sources that said Cutler did call Bowlen.. MORE than once. So I think that entire story is messed up, and lies somewhere in between. I think the entire "he's a baby" thing was absolutely exaggerated by the media, and then REALLY exaggerated by those on these boards.

But as you said. There has been a lot of lip smacking and lying going on, and much has come from the McD base (as you said in your last post). McD admited that he didn't just pick up the phone (as he first said)... and it was actively searching to trade for Cassel. We don't know what was said (or how it was said) in taht meeting with McD and Cutler. We do know that on the TV interview, McD had a chance to say (even if he wanted to simply say the right thing to fix the problem) that Jay was our QB of the future. He refused to say it.... as if he was just too stubborn to fix fences when given the chance. If he did that on TV, I'm sure it was the same way in person. Now... I do say this and TRULY understand that Cutler is not at all, without fault. I do. I just still have the perspective that I want my HC to be the 'bigger man' than some 24 yr old kid.

But the point is.... McD was intitially brought in to lead a star filled offense, and FIX the defense. When you explode the one thing that was the rising star (the offense) of the team...... you need to show that you can replace that talent, quickly. As you said, McD wasn't brought in to be given a 10 year project.


Well, i didnt necessarily say that McD was actively searching for a QB but i can honestly say i dont know for sure. I think any coach who receives a call of any type trade will listen to see what the offer is like. But, when the current Qb confronts you about it and you initially lie about how the call went down than i have to wonder what your thought process is. The bad news for McD is if he fails they (media, fans) will always look back to that phone call as the moment that everything went downhill. And like you i have to scratch my head at why as a new coach do you not know what situation your getting yourself into?

This is what i do know, sure im not a coach of any calibur in any sport. But, if im applying for a job you better be damn well sure im going to do the homework necessary to see where my team is at with talent, coaching, etc. Yea, i may have my own ideas of people to bring in as that is normal but how could you not know the possibilities of that offense before stripping it down? This is why i dont buy the whole "unprepared" thing about the draft last year. If i got the gig the first thing im doing is having my scouts get out and get everything they possibly can including some work from myself.

So far, i can live with the loss of Jay and Brandon as much as the loss talent pains me. But, Nolan gone still rubs me the wrong way. The guy made gold out of basically shit and then wanted to leave because McD gave him grief over something that he probably needed to further the development of that defense. So yea, im still a wait and see kind of guy but i do agree with you guys that its very hard for me to see the sunrise beyond the horizon with the moves that have been made. But my god i would love for McD to prove me wrong but right now he is average to poor at best after one season. Time to step it up as my wife would say as she has been laughing hysterically at our situation. I dont blame her.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 01:06 PM
I'll respond only to say you won't get many responses because it seems you are frankly obsessed with Jay Cutler. Few others here are discussing him, and I haven't mentioned him at all.

Actually, Cutler is very much a part of this thread. He was mentioned specifically
by the OP, and he is a root cause of the polarization among posters on the
various Broncos message boards.

-----

Dreadnought
04-15-2010, 01:08 PM
Actually, Cutler is very much a part of this thread. He was mentioned specifically
by the OP, and he is a root cause of the polarization among posters on the
various Broncos message boards.

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I disagree. Josh McDaniels never once coached Jay Cutler in an NFL game, and my disgust with him is entirely related to his own wretched performance in 2009. Cutler, for good or bad, is a Bear. McDaniels presided over the most embarrassing and awful collapse in Bronco history, one in which Jay Cutler was not involved in any way.

turftoad
04-15-2010, 01:10 PM
My hate runs deep. I will never like what McD has done or is trying to do.

I respect your post though. And understand how you feel.

I agree with my buddy Clay on this one. :salute:

The Glue Factory
04-15-2010, 01:12 PM
Well to bad for you, we did get rid of the hardest worker when we gave away Cutler. He never had an offseason that he wasn't here learning new schemes or taking receivers off to Atlanta to work out. That is something we didn't have before Cutler and don't have now. He was always a first in last out kind of guy. We gave him away because he (as a very young man) acted childish over trade rumors. What a joke....

Also, you say you aren't arrogant enough to think you are smarter than McDaniels. Well I don't think I'm smarter than Bowlen, Shanahan, McDaniels, or Elway when it comes to QB play. Every one of these guys has said Cutler is going to be a star. McDaniels himself said that it would never benifit this team to get rid of Cutler. That was just before he traded Cutler. He didn't say it would benifit the team if Cutler was immature and he could get some picks. Even McDaniels knows he is screwing up this teams future. With the way he can build a defense and work free agency, he could have been great here if he kept that offense together. Instead the offensive genious turns our good offense into junk in a single offseason.

Nevermind that once Cutler got his panties in a wad he didn't attend any OTAs or have that nice work ethic you praised. Heck he didn't even have the cojones to personally turn in the playbook. I don't doubt that McDaniels wanted to work with Cutler but Cutler didn't want to play so packed up his ball and cried all the way home.

I would rather have a team of moderate talent investing players themselves in the team rather than have a few prima donna stars chewing up a majority of our cap space dedicated to their stats, their career, their paycheck.

Anyone remember anybody on the superbowl teams being as big a prima donna as Marshall or as big a cry baby as Cutler? Remember Elway AND Sharpe were both floated as trade bait in their careers here. Both were pissed about it but both stayed on.

Just something to think about.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 01:19 PM
I disagree. Josh McDaniels never once coached Jay Cutler in an NFL game, and my disgust with him is entirely related to his own wretched performance in 2009. Cutler, for good or bad, is a Bear. McDaniels presided over the most embarrassing and awful collapse in Bronco history, one in which Jay Cutler was not involved in any way.

Once again, I have seen a lot of collapses in my 50-year history with the Broncos.
You are putting that collapse into pretty fast company, including the collapse of
just a year before, which I consider even worse than 2009, and that was with
Cutler and Marshall in full operation and Shanahan at the helm.

But, whether McDaniels had coached Cutler in a game is neither here nor there.
Cutler's departure almost totally involves McDaniels. Cutler wanted McDaniels'
guarantee that Cutler would not be the topic of any trade talks, and McDaniels
refused . . . which makes McDaniels more honest that some here are representing
him since all McDaniels had to do was to acquiesce (then do what he wanted).

Cutler and Marshall were bringing the team down, and Shanahan was allowing
it. So Cutler is very much an issue here, IMO.

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jhns
04-15-2010, 01:20 PM
I'll speak for the Cutler lovers on this board, because we all know they aren't going to respond to this post.

"Jay Cutler has a stronger arm than John Elway. And he puts up huge numbers in my yardage only fantasy football league. Who cares if he hasn't won a meaningful game since high school, sucks in the redzone, can't "lead" worth shit, and doesn't give a **** about the guys he plays with.

He's got a stronger arm than John Elway, ok..!"

lol

Riight, getting rid of Cutler was a good thing! We only got far worse on offense. We don't have a QB even close to his talent even though our new one has more years in the league. It doesn't matter that we went from the franchises worst ever defense to a top half of the league defense and ended with the same record.... Riiight, great trade that was. Who cares that it instantly killed our top o-line and made guys like Royal become mediocre? Who cares that guys that have much more success than McDaniels say that Cutler is a buddding star? McDaniels is better and smarter than everyone on this planet. You know that whole 8-8 career record proves this. The fact that he has never coached before(at any level) and was only even a coordinator for two years doesn't matter.

BTW, McDaniels himself said it was never benificial for this team to trade Cutler. That was a week before he gave away Cutler. Sure sounds like he made the decision to cut off his nose in spite of his face to me.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 01:20 PM
So far, i can live with the loss of Jay and Brandon as much as the loss talent pains me. But, Nolan gone still rubs me the wrong way. The guy made gold out of basically shit and then wanted to leave because McD gave him grief over something that he probably needed to further the development of that defense. So yea, im still a wait and see kind of guy but i do agree with you guys that its very hard for me to see the sunrise beyond the horizon with the moves that have been made. But my god i would love for McD to prove me wrong but right now he is average to poor at best after one season. Time to step it up as my wife would say as she has been laughing hysterically at our situation. I dont blame her.

I get what you are saying here. ALthough we know tha the losss of Jay and Marshall bother me, this one is a HUGE disgust to me as well. But really, its the accumulation of all of it. Its not just the lost of one player... or the loss of two players... but now its the loss of 3 then four.... AND the DC that had the biggest impact on our team. It does make you go :confused:

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 01:21 PM
I do have an article (I think its saved on the home computer) from a respectable source, that says he had talked to 'several' sources that said Cutler did call Bowlen.. MORE than once. So I think that entire story is messed up, and lies somewhere in between. I think the entire "he's a baby" thing was absolutely exaggerated by the media, and then REALLY exaggerated by those on these boards.

So sources say that Cutler did call Bowlen, and the following article states that Cutler replied NO, when ask if Bowlen had directly tried to contact him?????? Also on video is Stink talking about it, with the following -Schlereth Not Buying Cutler's Story According to this article, it appears that it was HARD even for Cutler's agent to talk directly to him?????

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4034863

Denver Broncos owner Pat Bowlen released a statement Tuesday saying both he and coach Josh McDaniels had been unable to get quarterback Jay Cutler to call them back over the past 10 days.

As a result, the team has decided to trade Cutler, who they are convinced "no longer has any desire to play for the Denver Broncos."

Cutler and his agent have a different spin on the story, NFL senior analyst Chris Mortensen reports. Asked by text message whether Bowlen has directly tried to contact him, Cutler replied, "No."

His agent, Bus Cook, said the Broncos first got in touch with him on Tuesday.

"The perception that they've been burning the phone lines the last 10 days is wrong," Cook said. "In fact, the other day I asked Jay if he had heard from them and he said, 'no.' I didn't hear from them until yesterday [Tuesday] morning when [GM] Brian Xanders called me and said that Mr. Bowlen needs to speak with Jay now. I told him all I can do is leave Jay a message.

"I didn't reach Jay directly -- I don't know what he was doing -- but I left a message. Then Brian called at the end of the day and asked me if I had heard from him. I hadn't. I heard from Jay when he called to tell me he just saw on TV he was being traded. They can spin it the way they want to spin it."

A Broncos official scoffed at the notion that Bowlen didn't reach out directly to Cutler, suggesting that any owner would set up a call through a GM or a personal assistant.

Lancane
04-15-2010, 01:23 PM
I'm not discouraged. I'm excited. The Broncos are fast forming into a team other teams do not want to play. That's what I want to see from a team I am rooting for: Smash-Mouth, In-Your-Face, Take-No-Prisoners. Team colors might be Orange & Blue, but I want them known as Black & Blue!

Top, that is actually not true... As you know I have several friends and acquaintances in or around the league, Denver is sort of considered a bad pun at this time.


Without Cutler to Marshall the Broncos are about as good as the Chicago Bears have been for the past five or so years.


If not for Ryan Clady and Elvis Dumervil Denver would have no Pro Bowl caliber players they have drafted as an organization, the most promising draftees they had are now in Chicago and Miami.


Orton, Gaffney, Lloyd, Buckhalter, Quinn and Olsen, Moreno was the only real promising addition that the team has added to their offense, Royal is questionable and if they trade Marshall? The Broncos are not the team to beat in the West anymore, they're slowling becoming the Raiders, talentless and hopeful!


Denver's defense improved, but an offense with Orton and not Cutler scares nobody, we use to look forward to a hard fought game with them, now it's an almost guaranteed win, like when teams play Detroit.


Did Bill (Belichick) personally send Josh (McDaniels) to destroy the one real crutch team that New England has trouble with? It certainly feels that way.

Beyond just those I have spoken with or know, I have not heard anyone at the professional level whether through media or that is a journalist that has said or made mention that other teams are afraid or fearful of playing us. Even Rivers and the media outlets that cover the Chargers said that the win we had last year against them was a fluke, they proved as much in the second meeting.

I'm sorry Top, I just don't see where the team is getting hungry, or that tough bring your lunch, smash-mouth attitude that you're alluding to. Great the defense improved, but this is a quarterback friendly league and even with solid defensive play...offenses are starting to have just as much if not more to do with winning championships as the defenses.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 01:26 PM
So sources say that Cutler did call Bowlen, and the following article states that Cutler replied NO, when ask if Bowlen had directly tried to contact him?????? Also on video is Stink talking about it, with the following -Schlereth Not Buying Cutler's Story According to this article, it appears that it was HARD even for Cutler's agent to talk directly to him?????

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4034863

Denver Broncos owner Pat Bowlen released a statement Tuesday saying both he and coach Josh McDaniels had been unable to get quarterback Jay Cutler to call them back over the past 10 days.

As a result, the team has decided to trade Cutler, who they are convinced "no longer has any desire to play for the Denver Broncos."

Cutler and his agent have a different spin on the story, NFL senior analyst Chris Mortensen reports. Asked by text message whether Bowlen has directly tried to contact him, Cutler replied, "No."

His agent, Bus Cook, said the Broncos first got in touch with him on Tuesday.

"The perception that they've been burning the phone lines the last 10 days is wrong," Cook said. "In fact, the other day I asked Jay if he had heard from them and he said, 'no.' I didn't hear from them until yesterday [Tuesday] morning when [GM] Brian Xanders called me and said that Mr. Bowlen needs to speak with Jay now. I told him all I can do is leave Jay a message.

"I didn't reach Jay directly -- I don't know what he was doing -- but I left a message. Then Brian called at the end of the day and asked me if I had heard from him. I hadn't. I heard from Jay when he called to tell me he just saw on TV he was being traded. They can spin it the way they want to spin it."

A Broncos official scoffed at the notion that Bowlen didn't reach out directly to Cutler, suggesting that any owner would set up a call through a GM or a personal assistant.

Yes, this occurs to me when people talk about how McDaniels lied . . .

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silkamilkamonico
04-15-2010, 01:27 PM
lol

Riight, getting rid of Cutler was a good thing! We only got far worse on offense. We don't have a QB even close to his talent even though our new one has more years in the league. It doesn't matter that we went from the franchises worst ever defense to a top half of the league defense and ended with the same record.... Riiight, great trade that was. Who cares that it instantly killed our top o-line and made guys like Royal become mediocre? Who cares that guys that have much more success than McDaniels say that Cutler is a buddding star? McDaniels is better and smarter than everyone on this planet. You know that whole 8-8 career record proves this. The fact that he has never coached before(at any level) and was only even a coordinator for two years doesn't matter.

BTW, McDaniels himself said it was never benificial for this team to trade Cutler. That was a week before he gave away Cutler. Sure sounds like he made the decision to cut off his nose in spite of his face to me.

LMAO

Jay Cutler is a 12-15 rated QB in the NFL. He's the 3rd best QB in his own division after Brett Favre comes back, and the one QB he's better than, Stafford, has more potential than he does, and is younger.

LAMO at you holding on to the mediocrity we had with him and his era. but hey, when you don't have success like Denver hasn't in 10 years, you grasp on to whatever you can reach.

Josh McDaniels somehow being a "bonafide coaching candidate" was about as qualified as Jay Cutler somehow being an elite talent in the NFL.

Both are an absurd thought, and argument.

silkamilkamonico
04-15-2010, 01:30 PM
Yes, this occurs to me when people talk about how McDaniels lied . . .

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It's quite clear to me that Jay Cutler was the liar in that.

jhns
04-15-2010, 01:36 PM
Nevermind that once Cutler got his panties in a wad he didn't attend any OTAs or have that nice work ethic you praised. Heck he didn't even have the cojones to personally turn in the playbook. I don't doubt that McDaniels wanted to work with Cutler but Cutler didn't want to play so packed up his ball and cried all the way home.

I would rather have a team of moderate talent investing players themselves in the team rather than have a few prima donna stars chewing up a majority of our cap space dedicated to their stats, their career, their paycheck.

Anyone remember anybody on the superbowl teams being as big a prima donna as Marshall or as big a cry baby as Cutler? Remember Elway AND Sharpe were both floated as trade bait in their careers here. Both were pissed about it but both stayed on.

Just something to think about.

Yes, let's talk about Elway. 1) He has stated it was a mistake to get rid of Jay and that Jay is going to be a special player. 2) he straight refused to play for his first team(thank god) because he and his dad didn't like the coach. He then got what Cutler wanted after that trade talk. He was guaranteed he wouldn't be traded and that coach was fired. He had proven a lot more by that time but I'm just showing you how bad of an example that is. Cutler wouldn't have been a problem if McD said he wasn't going to be traded.

jhns
04-15-2010, 01:40 PM
LMAO

Jay Cutler is a 12-15 rated QB in the NFL. He's the 3rd best QB in his own division after Brett Favre comes back, and the one QB he's better than, Stafford, has more potential than he does, and is younger.


And our QBs are half of what Cutler is and our offense was far worse without him. If you want to give away the QB, it helps to actually replace that QB....

broncophan
04-15-2010, 01:40 PM
I get what you are saying here. ALthough we know tha the losss of Jay and Marshall bother me, this one is a HUGE disgust to me as well. But really, its the accumulation of all of it. Its not just the lost of one player... or the loss of two players... but now its the loss of 3 then four.... AND the DC that had the biggest impact on our team. It does make you go :confused:

shouldn't we all be MORE disgusted that both of these very talented players were head cases and that they put themselves before the team in many cases....a couple of freakin' spoiled ME----ME-----ME-----individuals........sorry........we don't need them.....

topscribe
04-15-2010, 01:42 PM
Top, that is actually not true... As you know I have several friends and acquaintances in or around the league, Denver is sort of considered a bad pun at this time.

Beyond just those I have spoken with or know, I have not heard anyone at the professional level whether through media or that is a journalist that has said or made mention that other teams are afraid or fearful of playing us. Even Rivers and the media outlets that cover the Chargers said that the win we had last year against them was a fluke, they proved as much in the second meeting.

I'm sorry Top, I just don't see where the team is getting hungry, or that tough bring your lunch, smash-mouth attitude that you're alluding to. Great the defense improved, but this is a quarterback friendly league and even with solid defensive play...offenses are starting to have just as much if not more to do with winning championships as the defenses.

I don't care how many friends you have. "Around the league" means not here.
I'm here. I see Jamal Williams, Green, and Brannan coming in. I see Marcus
Thomas coming of age at defensive guard, for which he is preparing himself. I
see Ayers with the year he needed under his belt and D.J. Williams finally coming
back to the same position he played the year before. I see the secondary
remaining intact. I see Orton coming back healthy with more than a calendar
year with the team and the scheme. I see Moreno knowing what to do from the
backfield.

I see an accumulation of draft choices created by near genius trade negotiations.

I see a good team this year. I will be willing to bet that nobody considered the
Broncos a "bad pun" during the first seven or eight games last year. Well, this
year, they have better talent on defense, and the offensive prima donnas are
gone.

Even some of the local press, who has been so pessimistic, has begun to view
the future more favorably.

However, when I see someone citing all kinds of other people regarding a state
of affairs or leadership, I always refer back to Winston Churchill and how nearly
an entire nation was down on him.

I see problems, of course. But I see what appears to me a leader in young
McDaniels. I hope I am right, and I know you do, too . . . I hope you do.

I may be wrong . . . I have been before, of course. But that is what I see . . .

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Northman
04-15-2010, 01:42 PM
Yes, let's talk about Elway. 1) He has stated it was a mistake to get rid of Jay and that Jay is going to be a special player. 2) he straight refused to play for his first team(thank god) because he and his dad didn't like the coach. He then got what Cutler wanted after that trade talk. He was guaranteed he wouldn't be traded and that coach was fired. He had proven a lot more by that time but I'm just showing you how bad of an example that is. Cutler wouldn't have been a problem if McD said he wasn't going to be traded.

But, that onus is on Bowlen which i do believe was going to be rectified had Jay gotten in touch with Pat. When Reeves tried to do it John went straight to Bowlen and got it resolved. Jay failed to do that for whatever reason.

silkamilkamonico
04-15-2010, 01:42 PM
And our QBs are half of what Cutler is and our offense was far worse without him. If you want to give away the QB, it helps to actually replace that QB....

I can show you that Orton was a better QB than Cutler last year if you like. Cutler is a top 12-15 QB in the NFL. Orton, is a 15-20 level QB in the NFL. Not that much difference, other than Orton isn't in the long term plans.

We sure didn't replace win's with losses when we traded Cutler, that's for sure.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 01:44 PM
It's quite clear to me that Jay Cutler was the liar in that.

Actually, I was more on Cutler's side right up until that incident.

That's when I turned . . .

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silkamilkamonico
04-15-2010, 01:44 PM
But, that onus is on Bowlen which i do believe was going to be rectified had Jay gotten in touch with Pat. When Reeves tried to do it John went straight to Bowlen and got it resolved. Jay failed to do that for whatever reason.

Jay held himself higher than the organization. Like what's already been pointed our numerously countless of times by the most respected analysts out there, even guys like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees wouldn't dare disrespect their owner by refusing to call him back and avoiding his calls.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 01:45 PM
If you want to give away the QB, it helps to actually replace that QB....

Exactly. :beer:

Which makes me glad the Broncos got Orton . . .

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silkamilkamonico
04-15-2010, 01:47 PM
Actually, I was more on Cutler's side right up until that incident.

That's when I turned . . .

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Exactly. I was in the same boat. Cutler was a complete douchebag in that situation, and although I normally could care less of the players on my favortie professional team to an extent as long as they were winners, I actually cared less about Jay Cutler. If that was Joe Montana or John Elway or Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning, they still would have been crucified for those actions.

You don't hold yourself in more importance of the owners, who actually allow the NFL to exist.

Whoever Jay Cutler's PR person was failed miserably in that incident, or Jay Cutler really is a douchebag.

Northman
04-15-2010, 01:48 PM
Jay held himself higher than the organization. Like what's already been pointed our numerously countless of times by the most respected analysts out there, even guys like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, and Drew Brees wouldn't dare disrespect their owner by refusing to call him back and avoiding his calls.

True, but i also believe that the owners of those respected franchises wouldnt let a QB of that calibur go without at least hearing it from the horses mouth first. Although i understand why Pat did it i dont think he really tried hard enough to resolve a situation that too me could of been handled much better overall. The other thing that plays into this is how much did Jay really want to play for Denver? Its hard not to understand him wanting to leave anyway. He loves Chicago and two coaches he really liked were canned. I think in the end the rules set in place by McD was only an excuse to get himself out of dodge and too a situation he much preferred. Again, like Marshall both the team and player got what they wanted but had i been the owner i would of tried much harder to keep a talented kid like that if i felt that the new coach could work with him.

Northman
04-15-2010, 01:49 PM
Whoever Jay Cutler's PR person was failed miserably in that incident, or Jay Cutler really is a douchebag.

Probably a little of both.

jhns
04-15-2010, 01:53 PM
I can show you that Orton was a better QB than Cutler last year if you like. Cutler is a top 12-15 QB in the NFL. Orton, is a 15-20 level QB in the NFL. Not that much difference, other than Orton isn't in the long term plans.

We sure didn't replace win's with losses when we traded Cutler, that's for sure.

I don't care what you rank the QBs, I am talking actual production on this team. Cutler, with a far younger supporting cast, had a much better offense here than Orton. Cutler made those around him better(Royal, o-line). Our current QB makes their jobs harder. These are the facts. McDaniels is doing great in free agency both last year and this year. Him and Nolan did great turning the defense around last year. Let's hope that continues without Nolan(another person that couldn't work with McD).

None of that changes the fact that we would have been much better with the improved defense and an offense. Now our top offensive weapon is gone. I really hope McD was screwing with us and has a better system this year. I'm not sure this team can afford another big step back on offense.

BigBroncLove
04-15-2010, 01:53 PM
This is what i do know, sure im not a coach of any calibur in any sport. But, if im applying for a job you better be damn well sure im going to do the homework necessary to see where my team is at with talent, coaching, etc. Yea, i may have my own ideas of people to bring in as that is normal but how could you not know the possibilities of that offense before stripping it down? This is why i dont buy the whole "unprepared" thing about the draft last year. If i got the gig the first thing im doing is having my scouts get out and get everything they possibly can including some work from myself.

I thought, while not in agreement, this was a well balanced post. Anyhow I'll just make my own comment on this part. I do believe that coming in as a new coach at the time McD did, is going to directly effect his ability to look at the draft last year. This doesn't apply so much to Xanders. Xanders was an assistant GM in the Bronco organization and should know his stuff. That I think is a reflection of how the last draft probably coincided more with Xanders preferences then McD. But let me say this about preparing for a draft.

Most organization begin looking and discussing draft talent in late January or early February (depending on where they were in the playoffs/SB) for a reason. Firstly there's reviewing film. This is easily the most time consuming ordeal, and the most important, in evaluating incoming talent to league. Each potential prospect that the team wants to consider properly has to have their film properly scrutinized. Normally you would rely on your scouts quite a bit to start building your board (obviously some scouts get more preference then others in opinion). As a new incoming coach you won't know your existent scout staff so even when your intaking their suggestions as a new coach you'll want to form your own opinion, to a degree, on the players they are suggesting to the organization.

Then beyond that the Broncos had a complete restructure of the defense, and a revamping of their offensive profiles, which means the positions that had been previously scouted for likely won't apply to who the team is looking to draft. Square one again. Pile on the fact that staff needs to hired, free agency needs it's own fair look to try and meet team needs immediately, as well as creating both the offensive and defensive playbooks and you're time to properly prepare for the draft drops significantly.

Given that, the amount of time would be limited for the Broncos staff to properly evaluate film, select players that fit a new scheme that the existing scouts had not prepared previously for, and that the head coaching staff was likely evaluating the scouts and pre-existing staff/coaches as much as they were players, it making it much harder to properly evaluate draftees.

I will say this disclaimer on scouts and I'm sure coachchaz as a scout could lend a better light on the subject. That didn't mean the scouts didn't know talent for the new scheme that were available, they just hadn't spent the time evaluating the film on that talent as they had prepared for players that fit shanahan's scheme. It's all about due diligence. Not to mention, for the scouts, not knowing exactly McDaniels or Nolans preferences in players to fit their respective schemes until additional time had passed that they would have normally been used for preperation.

jhns
04-15-2010, 01:56 PM
Exactly. :beer:

Which makes me glad the Broncos got Orton . . .

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I will bet you Orton is not the starting QB within the next 2 years. I will even add to that, if McDaniels isn't the one to replace Orton before the next two seasons are finished, he won't be our coach at either.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 01:56 PM
I don't care what you rank the QBs, I am talking actual production on this team. Cutler, with a far younger supporting cast, had a much better offense here than Orton. Cutler made those around him better(Royal, o-line). Our current QB makes their jobs harder. These are the facts. McDaniels is doing great in free agency both last year and this year. Him and Nolan did great turning the defense around last year. Let's hope that continues without Nolan(another person that couldn't work with McD).

None of that changes the fact that we would have been much better with the improved defense and an offense. Now our top offensive weapon is gone. I really hope McD was screwing with us and has a better system this year. I'm not sure this team can afford another big step back on offense.

It's true that Cutler really spread the ball around.

Marshall, Royal, cornerbacks, safeties, linebackers . . .

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Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 01:57 PM
Yes, let's talk about Elway. 1) He has stated it was a mistake to get rid of Jay and that Jay is going to be a special player. 2) he straight refused to play for his first team(thank god) because he and his dad didn't like the coach. He then got what Cutler wanted after that trade talk. He was guaranteed he wouldn't be traded and that coach was fired. He had proven a lot more by that time but I'm just showing you how bad of an example that is. Cutler wouldn't have been a problem if McD said he wasn't going to be traded.

Yes, let's talk about Elway - this time in regards to Orton:

http://cbs4denver.com/broncos/John.Elway.sports.2.1185724.html

Elway Thinks Orton Will Be Better As Time Goes On

DENVER (CBS4) - Unlike some Broncos fans, John Elway seems to have no concerns about whether Kyle Orton is the man for the job for the Broncos this season. See what he had to say about the Broncos win over the Bengals on Sunday.

On Kyle Orton

"I think he's getting better," said Elway. "Obviously I think his finger is bothering him and I think offensively it doesn't look like everything is clicking for him yet."

"You know that they have the talent offensively to be a good team. I just think that is hasn't really clicked with everybody yet."

"You can spend all the time in the world you want in the off-season going over a new offense, trying to get it down mentally, but until you get into the games and get under the fire it's tough to react to it and really feel comfortable with that offense."

"Kyle's been in there before. He'll be perfect in this offense as time goes on and he gets more comfortable with it."

"I still think he's thinking about what's going on, where people are going to be, trying to trust people downfield. And when you're doing that it makes it more difficult to trust what you're doing within the pocket and it takes some of that reaction time away because you're thinking a little bit."

AND ELWAY ON CUTLER:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11963131

Elway weighs in on Cutler crisis

Former Broncos quarterback John Elway, himself no stranger to a feud with a head coach, on Thursday told the Pueblo Chieftain that the current spat between Jay Cutler and Josh McDaniels is "sad and unfortunate."

Elway, who spoke with the newspaper while attending a fundraiser at the Pueblo Convention Center, had not previously commented on the current drama at Dove Valley. Cutler has formally requested a trade after McDaniels and the new Broncos' regime discussed trading him.

"I understand Jay's feelings got hurt, but it's too bad it has got to where it is," Elway said. "I wish Jay would have got some better advice from whoever he was getting advice from."

topscribe
04-15-2010, 01:57 PM
I will bet you Orton is not the starting QB within the next 2 years. I will even add to that, if McDaniels isn't the one to replace Orton before the next two seasons are finished, he won't be our coach at either.

Another prediction . . .

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silkamilkamonico
04-15-2010, 01:59 PM
I don't care what you rank the QBs, I am talking actual production on this team. Cutler, with a far younger supporting cast, had a much better offense here than Orton. Cutler made those around him better(Royal, o-line). Our current QB makes their jobs harder. These are the facts. McDaniels is doing great in free agency both last year and this year. Him and Nolan did great turning the defense around last year. Let's hope that continues without Nolan(another person that couldn't work with McD).

None of that changes the fact that we would have been much better with the improved defense and an offense. Now our top offensive weapon is gone. I really hope McD was screwing with us and has a better system this year. I'm not sure this team can afford another big step back on offense.

Where was Jay Cutler's "production" in the big games, like playoff determining games, when it actually mattered? I'll tell you. In the garbage.

Jay Cutler makes players around him better? Tell that to the defense, when he's turning the ball over on our side of the field, threw interceptions for TD's, and failed to succeed at actually putting points on the board.

Yea, he really made the players around him better, including the other teams turnover personel and scoring offense, along with adding to the struggles of our defense.

Northman
04-15-2010, 02:01 PM
I thought, while not in agreement, this was a well balanced post. Anyhow I'll just make my own comment on this part. I do believe that coming in as a new coach at the time McD did, is going to directly effect his ability to look at the draft last year. This doesn't apply so much to Xanders. Xanders was an assistant GM in the Bronco organization and should know his stuff. That I think is a reflection of how the last draft probably coincided more with Xanders preferences then McD. But let me say this about preparing for a draft.

Most organization begin looking and discussing draft talent in late January or early February (depending on where they were in the playoffs/SB) for a reason. Firstly there's reviewing film. This is easily the most time consuming ordeal, and the most important, in evaluating incoming talent to league. Each potential prospect that the team wants to consider properly has to have their film properly scrutinized. Normally you would rely on your scouts quite a bit to start building your board (obviously some scouts get more preference then others in opinion). As a new incoming coach you won't know your existent scout staff so even when your intaking their suggestions as a new coach you'll want to form your own opinion, to a degree, on the players they are suggesting to the organization.

Then beyond that the Broncos had a complete restructure of the defense, and a revamping of their offensive profiles, which means the positions that had been previously scouted for likely won't apply to who the team is looking to draft. Square one again. Pile on the fact that staff needs to hired, FA agency needs it's own fair look to try and meet team needs immediately, as well as creating both the offensive and defensive playbooks and you're time to properly prepare for the draft drops significantly.

Given that, the amount of time would be limited for the Broncos staff to properly evaluate film, select players that fit a new scheme that the existing scouts had not prepared previously for, and that the head coaching staff was likely evaluating the scouts and pre-existing staff/coaches as much as they were players, it making it much harder to properly evaluate th

I will say this disclaimer on scouts and I'm sure coachchaz as a scout could lend a better light on the subject. That didn't mean the scouts didn't know talent for the new scheme that were available, they just hadn't spent the time evaluating the film on that talent as they had prepared for players that fit shanahan's scheme. It's all about due diligence. Not to mention, for the scouts, knowing exactly McDaniels or Nolans preferences in players to fit their respective schemes.


Excellent post BBL but here is where my problem is. I think the biggest mistake that McD made coming in was trying to change everything in one night. This is why i said he wasnt really prepared not only for the draft but i dont think he truly had a grasp as too what kind of talent was even on the team. If im coming in i might hold back in replacing guys like Bates or the Goodmans just based off the idea that although i want to instill my own rules and format i still want it to be a easy going process for the players currently there. Everyone knew that 2009 was going to be the "feel around" year to see where we were at. But i truly believe that McD did himself a huge disservice when he cleaned house on every level. He should have waited a year and evaluated his talent then and allowed the Goodman's to do the draft since they would of been far more prepared than anyone that Mcd would of brought in at that point. Had McD kept certain aspects of the team intact he would of had far more time to devote to other areas and allow the season to be the trial period we all knew it too be. Is it because of his inexperience? Maybe. But if someone like me is aware of something like that how can he not be? Its just one more of those unanswered questions that truly baffles me.

silkamilkamonico
04-15-2010, 02:01 PM
I will bet you Orton is not the starting QB within the next 2 years.

I for hope for our sake he's not. But at least we won't be "tied into" another average QB in the NFL, like Jay Cutler.

jhns
04-15-2010, 02:01 PM
Another prediction . . .

-----

Another? I wasn't aware of any others I made. Anyways, is there something wrong with predictions?

Shazam!
04-15-2010, 02:02 PM
Originally Posted by Lancane
Top, that is actually not true... As you know I have several friends and acquaintances in or around the league, Denver is sort of considered a bad pun at this time.

Beyond just those I have spoken with or know, I have not heard anyone at the professional level whether through media or that is a journalist that has said or made mention that other teams are afraid or fearful of playing us.

This is the funniest thing I have read all day.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 02:03 PM
Another? I wasn't aware of any others I made. Anyways, is there something wrong with predictions?

Not just you. I'm only taking note of all the people who seem to know what is going to happen in the future.

Wish I had their tea leaves . . .

-----

jhns
04-15-2010, 02:09 PM
Where was Jay Cutler's "production" in the big games, like playoff determining games, when it actually mattered? I'll tell you. In the garbage.

Jay Cutler makes players around him better? Tell that to the defense, when he's turning the ball over on our side of the field, threw interceptions for TD's, and failed to succeed at actually putting points on the board.

Yea, he really made the players around him better, including the other teams turnover personel and scoring offense, along with adding to the struggles of our defense.

LOL

Jay Cutler had been a starting QB for 2 years.....

You also over exagerate. For one, that offense scored a lot. The only counter to that is a team stat(the 16th thing) that is thrown out by people that don't understand what they are saying. That offense scored far more than this past years. I will agree it had a turnover problem. They still only had like 6 or 8 more than this past year with a LOT more production.

So the defense is now on Cutler? LOL..... Orton threw pick 6s. Cutler had far worse field position and still scored more than Orton. What a joke of an argument.

Here is a fact. Cutler had the worst ever defense and less experience around him. He won just as many games as Orton. Orton had a top half of the league defense and more experience around him. I'm not real sure how anyone can claim the offense didn't take a bug step back with that trade. I use logic though....

BigBroncLove
04-15-2010, 02:10 PM
Excellent post BBL but here is where my problem is. I think the biggest mistake that McD made coming in was trying to change everything in one night. This is why i said he wasnt really prepared not only for the draft but i dont think he truly had a grasp as too what kind of talent was even on the team. If im coming in i might hold back in replacing guys like Bates or the Goodmans just based off the idea that although i want to instill my own rules and format i still want it to be a easy going process for the players currently there. Everyone knew that 2009 was going to be the "feel around" year to see where we were at. But i truly believe that McD did himself a huge disservice when he cleaned house on every level. He should have waited a year and evaluated his talent then and allowed the Goodman's to do the draft since they would of been far more prepared than anyone that Mcd would of brought in at that point. Had McD kept certain aspects of the team intact he would of had far more time to devote to other areas and allow the season to be the trial period we all knew it too be. Is it because of his inexperience? Maybe. But if someone like me is aware of something like that how can he not be? Its just one more of those unanswered questions that truly baffles me.

I agree. Making the volume and drastic nature of his changes in scheme and organizational climate seemed a very large and taxing endeavour. I myself agree, I wouldn't have done it. Of course one can make the debate, and I suppose I'll play devils advocate despite that I agree he should have implemented at least a few things in tiers, is that the sooner the changes are made the sooner your organizations knows it course and can adjust to those changes. It's like throwing in a developmental offensive lineman a little earlier than you'd like. Sure there will be some growing pains, but when it's done you'll have an anchor for a while, and you're OL unit can congeal quicker. I imagine this likely why he chose to do it... or at least that's what I hope was his reasoning.

Also as a new HC every year is a ticking clock. If you decide to slowly implement your ideas, by the time they're all in place you might be getting your pink slip. By going the route McD did at least everyone knows, based on the amount and level of changes, that the first year may be a rebuilder and will be prepared for it (with the lower expectations to follow which helps job security a bit).

Lancane
04-15-2010, 02:12 PM
I don't care how many friends you have. "Around the league" means not here.
I'm here. I see Jamal Williams, Green, and Brannan coming in. I see Marcus
Thomas coming of age at defensive guard, for which he is preparing himself. I
see Ayers with the year he needed under his belt and D.J. Williams finally coming
back to the same position he played the year before. I see the secondary
remaining intact. I see Orton coming back healthy with more than a calendar
year with the team and the scheme. I see Moreno knowing what to do from the
backfield.

I see an accumulation of draft choices created by near genius trade negotiations.

I see a good team this year. I will be willing to bet that nobody considered the
Broncos a "bad pun" during the first seven or eight games last year. Well, this
year, they have better talent on defense, and the offensive prima donnas are
gone.

Even some of the local press, who has been so pessimistic, has begun to view
the future more favorably.

However, when I see someone citing all kinds of other people regarding a state
of affairs or leadership, I always refer back to Winston Churchill and how nearly
an entire nation was down on him.

I see problems, of course. But I see what appears to me a leader in young
McDaniels. I hope I am right, and I know you do, too . . . I hope you do.

I may be wrong . . . I have been before, of course. But that is what I see . . .

-----

No, you are correct in your assessment of me...I do have hope in the organization and in McDaniels, with that said, my hope is waning and my doubts right now far outweight my hopefulness.

You mentioned Orton, Williams, Bannan, Green, Thomas, D.J. Williams, Ayers and Moreno.

So let me illiterate on those additions and players.

First off, let's start with Kyle Orton, the NFL is a quarterback driven league, it has been for some time and while Orton plays mistake free and solid in his role, he whether healthy or not really initimidates anyone nor has that 'oomph' about him. If you were to ask the majority of NFL teams right now if they would want him, the majority answer would be no, not because he's not a good character guy, but because he does not have what people want in a franchise quarterback, if he had a stronger arm, was more accurate and he could carry a team to victory, then Chicago would not have traded all those picks for Cutler, that speaks volumes when you look how horrid their offense really is. You may disagree, but I never see him as getting majority backing as the quarterback in Denver.

As to Williams, Green and Bannon, they were solid signings. But Williams is nearing the end of his career and there are some concerns regarding him. The best of those three in my opinion was Bannan, while Green is solid in rotation, we still lack a dominant defensive lineman. You also mentioned Ayers, he still needs time and while I think he has some promise, he helps a defense improve...I will not say he is as good a move as Dumvervil, he's not awesome either, like Clady and Marshall were and we could see almost immediatley. D.J. Williams was always solid, but he's never been more then solid, is no Al Wilson and he has not proven to be a Pro-Bowl caliber player either. But I do think our defense will be better, much better compared to our offense.

Moreno, as you know I'm high on him...but we would have been better to have spent the pick on a legit quarterback IMHO. I'm hoping he has a breakout year this year, but he and Buckhalter are going to have to be stunning to help this team, Orton and the receivers are not going to light up the league, so most of our offensive prowess will be on them, for now. I will wait and see how we draft in the next week before I write them off completely, but if McDaniels by some chance goes defensively heavy in the draft or focuses too much on the LOS, then my hope will dissapear, because the chances are high we will be in the basement of the AFC West.

jhns
04-15-2010, 02:12 PM
Not just you. I'm only taking note of all the people who seem to know what is going to happen in the future.

Wish I had their tea leaves . . .

-----

I have never once guaranteed something to happen. I am just willing to bet that it does. I'm not claiming to be Mrs. Cleo.

silkamilkamonico
04-15-2010, 02:23 PM
LOL

Jay Cutler had been a starting QB for 2 years.....

You also over exagerate. For one, that offense scored a lot. The only counter to that is a team stat(the 16th thing) that is thrown out by people that don't understand what they are saying. That offense scored far more than this past years. I will agree it had a turnover problem. They still only had like 6 or 8 more than this past year with a LOT more production.

So the defense is now on Cutler? LOL..... Orton threw pick 6s. Cutler had far worse field position and still scored more than Orton. What a joke of an argument.

Here is a fact. Cutler had the worst ever defense and less experience around him. He won just as many games as Orton. Orton had a top half of the league defense and more experience around him. I'm not real sure how anyone can claim the offense didn't take a bug step back with that trade. I use logic though....

LMAO

Jay Cutler has been a starting QB for 3 years, not 2. He's also played in 3 and a half seasons, which is more than the handful of QB's that are younger, and better than him.

That offense was 16th in the NFl in scoring. 16th out of 32 teams is average. Not some "offensive machine". Sorry, but that's the way it is. Cutler and the offense left a loooooot of points on the board. Cutler left a lot of points on the board last year for Chicago. It's what he does, leaves a lot of points on the board.

So Cutler's inability to score on in the redzone is somehow on the defense? LMAO. No, Jay didn't have far worse field position. He also had a lot more possessions than Orton with the intent to score, because the defense was worse, but congratualtions on not understanding that part of the equation either. You're entire argument is a joke.

Here is a fact. Cutler contributed to that worst defense. It's part of his "Cutler makes players around him better" argument, except Cutler doesn't udnerstand which players. Don't believe me? Look at the Miami game, when the defense was holding the Dolphins to and outs, and Cutler was throwing interception for TD, and having 2 more turnovers on our side of the field, directly resulting to Miami's first 17 points, before even getting a first down. And you're going to argue Cutler "didn't get any help from his defense". LMAO Whoops, big miss on that one, huh...

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 02:24 PM
shouldn't we all be MORE disgusted that both of these very talented players were head cases and that they put themselves before the team in many cases....a couple of freakin' spoiled ME----ME-----ME-----individuals........sorry........we don't need them.....

See.. I just find this to be BS. The only person that they appeared to be ME ME players with.. was MCD. They were both coached by Shanahan first, and neither showed to be this 'me me' crap at all.

Yet now.. we are all of a sudden seeing Cutler, Marshall and Scheffler all be 'me me' players because McD says so..... and because people want to back up what McD is doing. There is one common denominator here..... the coach that can't get along.

All players want to get paid. Just because they want to get paid their fair worth isn't a 'me me' player. Quit fooling yoruself and buying into that.

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 02:27 PM
In regards to whoever posted that it was Coach McDaniels' decision to get rid of the Goodmans, this article proves that false. It appears after "do it all Shanahan" was fired, Pat Bowlen needed a GM.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_11691214?source=rss

Broncos owner Pat Bowlen on Thursday made another major change at the top of the organization when he named Brian Xanders as general manager and fired Jim Goodman and Jeff Goodman.

The 37-year-old Xanders, who was assistant general manager last season, has been part of a three-headed team of unofficial general managers along with the Goodmans — father Jim was the vice president of football operations and son Jeff was an assistant GM — since Mike Shananan's firing as head coach and GM on Dec. 30.

Bowlen said he felt he needed to streamline the personnel department further, and decided Xanders was the man he wanted to be his general manager. With that decision made, Bowlen said he didn't think Jeff Goodman would want to remain in Denver, and that Jim Goodman would not be comfortable staying without his son.

"Really, what I was interested in doing was re-setting the way we do business around here," Bowlen said. "Brian Xanders was what I considered a true general manager."

Xanders will be in charge of player personnel issues, including scouting and contract negotiations, though McDaniels will likely have the final say in selecting the roster. Bowlen said both Xanders and McDaniels will independently report to him.

Xanders was hired by the Broncos on May 5, 2008, after spending 14 years with the Atlanta Falcons. He is considered an expert on the business side of personnel matters, especially in dealing with the salary cap and contract negotiations. The team is expected to hire another person to assist Xanders and McDaniels in player evaluation.

"This appointment comes with unfortunate circumstances as I have enjoyed working with Jim and Jeff over the last year," Xanders said in a statement released by the team. "Nevertheless, I am humbled by this opportunity and accept it as a great challenge on behalf of our fans, our community, Mr. Bowlen and the organization."

The team began releasing players Wednesday, and Xanders, McDaniels and their collective staffs will begin evaluating players at the NFL Combine in Indianapolis starting Feb. 18.

Northman
04-15-2010, 02:36 PM
In regards to whoever posted that it was Coach McDaniels' decision to get rid of the Goodmans, this article proves that false. It appears after "do it all Shanahan" was fired, Pat Bowlen needed a GM.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_11691214?source=rss

Broncos owner Pat Bowlen on Thursday made another major change at the top of the organization when he named Brian Xanders as general manager and fired Jim Goodman and Jeff Goodman.

The 37-year-old Xanders, who was assistant general manager last season, has been part of a three-headed team of unofficial general managers along with the Goodmans — father Jim was the vice president of football operations and son Jeff was an assistant GM — since Mike Shananan's firing as head coach and GM on Dec. 30.

Bowlen said he felt he needed to streamline the personnel department further, and decided Xanders was the man he wanted to be his general manager. With that decision made, Bowlen said he didn't think Jeff Goodman would want to remain in Denver, and that Jim Goodman would not be comfortable staying without his son.

"Really, what I was interested in doing was re-setting the way we do business around here," Bowlen said. "Brian Xanders was what I considered a true general manager."

Xanders will be in charge of player personnel issues, including scouting and contract negotiations, though McDaniels will likely have the final say in selecting the roster. Bowlen said both Xanders and McDaniels will independently report to him.

Xanders was hired by the Broncos on May 5, 2008, after spending 14 years with the Atlanta Falcons. He is considered an expert on the business side of personnel matters, especially in dealing with the salary cap and contract negotiations. The team is expected to hire another person to assist Xanders and McDaniels in player evaluation.

"This appointment comes with unfortunate circumstances as I have enjoyed working with Jim and Jeff over the last year," Xanders said in a statement released by the team. "Nevertheless, I am humbled by this opportunity and accept it as a great challenge on behalf of our fans, our community, Mr. Bowlen and the organization."

The team began releasing players Wednesday, and Xanders, McDaniels and their collective staffs will begin evaluating players at the NFL Combine in Indianapolis starting Feb. 18.


Doesnt matter to me. If im McDaniels and i know that the Goodman's are already somewhat prepared for the upcoming draft i would of told Bowlen to hold his horses. Its moronic for any coach to want to put himself at a huge disservice by allowing that to happen in his first year. Blame Bowlen if you like but as a coach i would of never allowed that to happen in my first year. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Lonestar
04-15-2010, 02:41 PM
Probably the same reason Pitt kept Cowher for so long, Titans keeping Fisher. Basically i came down to consistency and Shanahan gave that whether it was just in the regular season or not. Would you have really preferred to be bottom feeders like Detroit, Oakland, or Cleveland? I know i wouldnt. Its not hard to look at Shanny's last year and be impressed with the offense. Yea, we didnt score a lot of TD's like we should have but it was a very young team in terms of experience.

When Shanahan was fired i was somewhat excited to see what a new coach could do. Especially in terms of discipline, scheme, attitude, etc. Some of those things i think Shanahan lost especially his ability to be a GM and coach at the same time. I had Shanahan been a little more humble and maybe relinquished his GM duties (and get rid of Slowik) he probably would still be HC here.

But, with that said you really cant tell me that Josh couldnt get Jay to flourish in his system. Im all for setting the standards of how you want your team ran but why lie about it to player to start with? So you took a phone call, why even lie that you took the call? Doesnt make a lot of sense. Even though in the end it was Jay who couldnt get over it you still have to question McD's intentions there. But, you asked why McD isnt given the same measuring stick that Shanny was the answer is very simple. Bowlen wants to WIN. Not win 10 years from now, but right now. He brought Josh in because he believed he could get Denver back into the hunt soon. Josh did some nice things last year but also allowed some bad things to rear its ugly head again.

Although im quite tired of Brandon's antics i do have to wonder how we will get his type of production at that position now that he is gone. But the bottom line is McD will not have a long leash like Shanahan did because Shanny got Pat and John the one thing they coveted most. A Ring. Had Shanny not gotten those rings he may have only lasted a couple more years after those seasons. But winning the championship goes a long way so i dont blame Bowlen for sticking with him for as long as he did. But now Bowlen wants that feeling again but he expects it soon considering Shanny couldnt get back there.

Yes I think jay would have done well IF he would have been disciplined, in the prior years he showed NO predilection of wanting to be Disciplined and not use the cannon opposed to his head and hit the open receiver.

As for Marshall Who cares if we have a super stud at WR. the game is not won or lost with big plays from the out side.

It is won or lost on the LOS if you look at all the SUper bowl teams over th past God only knows those that had dominant OLINES and and having a DL that could stop the run and put some pressure on the QB without having to BLITZ every play. YEs a great WR helps but they do not have to have 100 plus catches to help the team.

HAving Balance is what wins.

Yes mike put together some studs but they're not Team players, only thinking of their bottom line and not the teams. Being great between the 20's is wonderful when your looking at stats but scoring and not allowing the other team to score is what wins PLAYOFFS something that IMHO mike forgot after getting his contract for life.

I do not believe just replacing slowitt would have done anything but delayed mike getting fired.

He is a control freak that did not get it, was offense oriented to a flaw.

I believe that Pat "got it" and decided he wanted a team again

I'm willing to give Josh time to build a TEAM again. after all mike had TEN years to do so but failed.

Lancane
04-15-2010, 02:45 PM
In regards to whoever posted that it was Coach McDaniels' decision to get rid of the Goodmans, this article proves that false. It appears after "do it all Shanahan" was fired, Pat Bowlen needed a GM.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_11691214?source=rss

Broncos owner Pat Bowlen on Thursday made another major change at the top of the organization when he named Brian Xanders as general manager and fired Jim Goodman and Jeff Goodman.

The 37-year-old Xanders, who was assistant general manager last season, has been part of a three-headed team of unofficial general managers along with the Goodmans — father Jim was the vice president of football operations and son Jeff was an assistant GM — since Mike Shananan's firing as head coach and GM on Dec. 30.

Bowlen said he felt he needed to streamline the personnel department further, and decided Xanders was the man he wanted to be his general manager. With that decision made, Bowlen said he didn't think Jeff Goodman would want to remain in Denver, and that Jim Goodman would not be comfortable staying without his son.

"Really, what I was interested in doing was re-setting the way we do business around here," Bowlen said. "Brian Xanders was what I considered a true general manager."

Xanders will be in charge of player personnel issues, including scouting and contract negotiations, though McDaniels will likely have the final say in selecting the roster. Bowlen said both Xanders and McDaniels will independently report to him.

Xanders was hired by the Broncos on May 5, 2008, after spending 14 years with the Atlanta Falcons. He is considered an expert on the business side of personnel matters, especially in dealing with the salary cap and contract negotiations. The team is expected to hire another person to assist Xanders and McDaniels in player evaluation.

"This appointment comes with unfortunate circumstances as I have enjoyed working with Jim and Jeff over the last year," Xanders said in a statement released by the team. "Nevertheless, I am humbled by this opportunity and accept it as a great challenge on behalf of our fans, our community, Mr. Bowlen and the organization."

The team began releasing players Wednesday, and Xanders, McDaniels and their collective staffs will begin evaluating players at the NFL Combine in Indianapolis starting Feb. 18.

Don't buy it one bit, like North was saying it would have been a disservice since Goodman was more draft ready then Xanders. Bowlen is the front of the organization, he would have had to have made the final decision, but if it looked like Xanders and McDaniels worked better together and were ****-blocked by Goodman on decisions, then they would have likely brought that to Bowlen. As I stated before, Goodman would have stood in the way of the Cutler trade, it's sort of convinient that the trade talks for Cutler began right after he was fired...not before, there is more to it then just simply Bowlen made a decision...after all Bowlen said that Cutler was the franchise, that he wanted Marshall to return. I don't buy shit any of them say at this point.

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 02:46 PM
Doesnt matter to me. If im McDaniels and i know that the Goodman's are already somewhat prepared for the upcoming draft i would of told Bowlen to hold his horses. Its moronic for any coach to want to put himself at a huge disservice by allowing that to happen in his first year. Blame Bowlen if you like but as a coach i would of never allowed that to happen in my first year. It makes no sense whatsoever.

I would have to believe that Xanders was ever bit as much a part of the upcoming draft process as the Goodmans were last year, and I would believe, even with the Goodmans gone, they left paper trails with the Broncos noting their evaluations on players by position, etc.

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 02:48 PM
Don't buy it one bit, like North was saying it would have been a disservice since Goodman was more draft ready then Xanders. Bowlen is the front of the organization, he would have had to have made the final decision, but if it looked like Xanders and McDaniels worked better together and were ****-blocked by Goodman on decisions, then they would have likely brought that to Bowlen. As I stated before, Goodman would have stood in the way of the Cutler trade, it's sort of convinient that the trade talks for Cutler began right after he was fired...not before, there is more to it then just simply Bowlen made a decision...after all Bowlen said that Cutler was the franchise, that he wanted Marshall to return. I don't buy shit any of them say at this point.

How does any outsider know for a fact that Goodman was more draft ready than Xanders last year? And how could Goodman possibly have stood in the way of Cutler being traded?????? Since when do pro scouts make decisions on players currently on a roster - especially to the point that they could have stopped a trade?

topscribe
04-15-2010, 02:52 PM
No, you are correct in your assessment of me...I do have hope in the organization and in McDaniels, with that said, my hope is waning and my doubts right now far outweight my hopefulness.

You mentioned Orton, Williams, Bannan, Green, Thomas, D.J. Williams, Ayers and Moreno.

So let me illiterate on those additions and players.

First off, let's start with Kyle Orton, the NFL is a quarterback driven league, it has been for some time and while Orton plays mistake free and solid in his role, he whether healthy or not really initimidates anyone nor has that 'oomph' about him. If you were to ask the majority of NFL teams right now if they would want him, the majority answer would be no, not because he's not a good character guy, but because he does not have what people want in a franchise quarterback, if he had a stronger arm, was more accurate and he could carry a team to victory, then Chicago would not have traded all those picks for Cutler, that speaks volumes when you look how horrid their offense really is. You may disagree, but I never see him as getting majority backing as the quarterback in Denver.

It's obvious, Cane, you do not know a lot about Orton. Stronger arm? He threw
the ball 74 yards as a high school senior, before he was fully developed.
(Peyton Manning threw it 68 yards and Brady 67 in the 2002 QB Challenge. Brett
Favre threw it 77 yards--just three yards further--in a later QB Challenge.) Orton
was recruited into college as a strong-armed QB: That was the reason Purdue
wanted him. He threw the ball 65 yards in the air in the NE game and had
several completions last year where the ball went 50+ yards in the air. I have
personally witnessed some 30-something-yard frozen ropes by him. I don't
know how strong an arm you want.

Regarding accuracy, it is true that he initially had problems with deep accuracy.
But one of the things McDaniels liked when he told Chicago he wanted Orton
was his accuracy, according to McDaniels, and he repeated that about Orton in
his final presser of the 2009 season.

Carry a team to victory? Did you miss the NE game? Not one, but two 90+ yard
drives for TDs. San Diego, game 1? A lot was made of Royal's two TDs, but you
take away them and Sproles' TD, the Broncos still win the game, and Orton and
his 115.4 QBR was behind that. Philadelphia, Oakland . . . Orton proved himself
several times last year. It's just too bad he was not supported by a better run
defense.


As to Williams, Green and Bannon, they were solid signings. But Williams is nearing the end of his career and there are some concerns regarding him. The best of those three in my opinion was Bannan, while Green is solid in rotation, we still lack a dominant defensive lineman. You also mentioned Ayers, he still needs time and while I think he has some promise, he helps a defense improve...I will not say he is as good a move as Dumvervil, he's not awesome either, like Clady and Marshall were and we could see almost immediatley. D.J. Williams was always solid, but he's never been more then solid, is no Al Wilson and he has not proven to be a Pro-Bowl caliber player either. But I do think our defense will be better, much better compared to our offense.Not much argument here. We essentially agree on a better defense, even
through minor disagreements on personnel.


Moreno, as you know I'm high on him...but we would have been better to have spent the pick on a legit quarterback IMHO. I'm hoping he has a breakout year this year, but he and Buckhalter are going to have to be stunning to help this team, Orton and the receivers are not going to light up the league, so most of our offensive prowess will be on them, for now. I will wait and see how we draft in the next week before I write them off completely, but if McDaniels by some chance goes defensively heavy in the draft or focuses too much on the LOS, then my hope will dissapear, because the chances are high we will be in the basement of the AFC West.I'm still high on Moreno, too, and I am very grateful for Bucky.

And I believe we have a legit QB. Let's see now what he can do healthy, after a
solid year with the team and the scheme. If he doesn't improve, then I'll be
with you on that. If he does . . . well, you've already said you'll never like him . . .

-----

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 02:55 PM
if he threw it 74 yards as a senior, wth happened to his arm? He took two steps forward, HEAVED the ball down field this year, and it went 53.... his longest throw. :lol: 74 yrds :lol:

topscribe
04-15-2010, 02:58 PM
Don't buy it one bit, like North was saying it would have been a disservice since Goodman was more draft ready then Xanders. Bowlen is the front of the organization, he would have had to have made the final decision, but if it looked like Xanders and McDaniels worked better together and were ****-blocked by Goodman on decisions, then they would have likely brought that to Bowlen. As I stated before, Goodman would have stood in the way of the Cutler trade, it's sort of convinient that the trade talks for Cutler began right after he was fired...not before, there is more to it then just simply Bowlen made a decision...after all Bowlen said that Cutler was the franchise, that he wanted Marshall to return. I don't buy shit any of them say at this point.

The one person with whom I place credibility is Mr. Bowlen. He has no reason to
lie. After all, he is the last word in the organization.

-----

Northman
04-15-2010, 02:59 PM
I would have to believe that Xanders was ever bit as much a part of the upcoming draft process as the Goodmans were last year, and I would believe, even with the Goodmans gone, they left paper trails with the Broncos noting their evaluations on players by position, etc.

If Xanders was in indeed prepared they would of had more than 100 prospects to choose from. If Xanders was prepared McDaniels would not of come out and said differently. Again, its a moronic move for any coach to want or allow a change like that without it backfiring in his face. The last thing any coach would want to do is put himself behind the 8 ball right off the bat. I think Lan kind of hit it on the nose though. Xanders is a yes man whereas the Goodman's stand by their product and decisions. Im willing to believe that Bowlen might have fired them to eliminate the three headed-hydra but in the end he fired them too soon. McDaniels should of used his first year to evaluate talent on the field and to see how the Goodman's drafted to get a good idea where the team was headed. If indeed Bowlen dropped the ball on that than both he and McDaniels failed at being prepared for the draft in 09' let alone find out if he could use said players on the team. McD never gave any of them a chance to prove their worth to him before playing the Joker and creating chaos himself.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 02:59 PM
if he threw it 74 yards as a senior, wth happened to his arm? He took two steps forward, HEAVED the ball down field this year, and it went 53.... his longest throw. :lol: 74 yrds :lol:

You are good at laughing at facts, Ravage. Ill let that speak for itself . . . :coffee:

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Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 03:02 PM
Yes.. its a fact that he threw a ball 74 yrds in HS (uhhuh)..and then he threw his longest ball 53 yards last year. But I'm sure his arm was just worn out from all those rockets he fires to the outside numbers when completing all those passes past 9 yards.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 03:06 PM
Yes.. its a fact that he threw a ball 74 yrds in HS (uhhuh)..and then he threw his longest ball 53 yards last year. But I'm sure his arm was just worn out from all those rockets he fires to the outside numbers when completing all those passes past 9 yards.

Orton's longest ball in the air, as I wrote in English right here in this thread, was
65 yards. It was the "hail Mary" pass at the end of the first half of the NE game.

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Lancane
04-15-2010, 03:07 PM
How does any outsider know for a fact that Goodman was more draft ready than Xanders last year? And how could Goodman possibly have stood in the way of Cutler being traded?????? Since when do pro scouts make decisions on players currently on a roster - especially to the point that they could have stopped it?

Goodman prepared for the draft long before most, he was a self professed workaholic when it came to his job. Goodman continually spoke with scouts, kept notes on what they heard and saw, many even feel it was because of Goodman and his drive that the Broncos elevated in drafting players as he had more responsibility with it.

And to answer your question, I knew several of the scouts in Denver during the latter half of Shanahan's tenure if you must know Carol, that is why I know a thing or two about the Goodmans and so on. And he had a lot to do with the drafting of Cutler, he had ties within the SEC, he kept a close eye on the players in that division more so then others, and I heard he brought up Jay to Shanahan first, not sure if that is the absolute truth, but I tend to believe what I was told. I knew the Broncos were going to make a move on Cutler, while everyone in the fandom was saying "Yeah, right...we have Plummer", for the same reason I knew we would take Maurice Clarett and yadda, yadda. Point being is that Cutler was Goodman's boy, he wouldn't have allowed a trade whether or not McDaniels wanted it, because unlike Xanders and McDaniels, Goodman believed Jay was the face of the franchise and untradeable.

And Goodman was not simply a scout or heading up that department, he was Vice President of Football Operations / Player Personnel, he and Xanders were both considered Co-General Managers at that point without the titles, the only one with more pull between them and Bowlen was Ellis, and Ellis had long been sold on McDaniels, actually Josh has Ellis to thank for getting the job as head coach.

Lancane
04-15-2010, 03:09 PM
The one person with whom I place credibility is Mr. Bowlen. He has no reason to
lie. After all, he is the last word in the organization.

-----

Of course, not... Except he continues to do so, that must be an oversight on my part or maybe I need to redefine my defenition of a lie.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 03:09 PM
Goodman prepared for the draft long before most, he was a self professed workaholic when it came to his job. Goodman continually spoke with scouts, kept notes on what they heard and saw, many even feel it was because of Goodman and his drive that the Broncos elevated in drafting players as he had more responsibility with it.

And to answer your question, I knew several of the scouts in Denver during the latter half of Shanahan's tenure if you must know Carol, that is why I know a thing or two about the Goodmans and so on. And he had a lot to do with the drafting of Cutler, he had ties within the SEC, he kept a close eye on the players in that division more so then others, and I heard he brought up Jay to Shanahan first, not sure if that is the absolute truth, but I tend to believe what I was told. I knew the Broncos were going to make a move on Cutler, while everyone in the fandom was saying "Yeah, right...we have Plummer", for the same reason I knew we would take Maurice Clarett and yadda, yadda. Point being is that Cutler was Goodman's boy, he wouldn't have allowed a trade whether or not McDaniels wanted it, because unlike Xanders and McDaniels, Goodman believed Jay was the face of the franchise and untradeable.

And Goodman was not simply a scout or heading up that department, he was Vice President of Football Operations / Player Personnel, he and Xanders were both considered Co-General Managers at that point without the titles, the only one with more pull between them and Bowlen was Ellis, and Ellis had long been sold on McDaniels, actually Josh has Ellis to thank for getting the job as head coach.

I do believe Goodman was a casualty of the overhaul in the FO, through no
fault of his own. I just believe Mr. Bowlen wanted an entirely new beginning.
Hence, the scrub down.

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Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 03:11 PM
If Xanders was in indeed prepared they would of had more than 100 prospects to choose from. If Xanders was prepared McDaniels would not of come out and said differently. Again, its a moronic move for any coach to want or allow a change like that without it backfiring in his face. The last thing any coach would want to do is put himself behind the 8 ball right off the bat. I think Lan kind of hit it on the nose though. Xanders is a yes man whereas the Goodman's stand by their product and decisions. Im willing to believe that Bowlen might have fired them to eliminate the three headed-hydra but in the end he fired them too soon. McDaniels should of used his first year to evaluate talent on the field and to see how the Goodman's drafted to get a good idea where the team was headed. If indeed Bowlen dropped the ball on that than both he and McDaniels failed at being prepared for the draft in 09' let alone find out if he could use said players on the team. McD never gave any of them a chance to prove their worth to him before playing the Joker and creating chaos himself.

They are going to draft off of a short board again this year - has already been discussed on BF:

http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14860818

Here is another article stating the same:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/11/broncos-patriots-draft-off-a-short-board/

Broncos, Patriots draft off a short board
Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on April 11, 2010 10:31 AM ET

The best way to avoid drafting players you don't really want is to take them off your draft board.

That's the theory, anyhow, used by Bill Belichick in New England and some of his proteges around the NFL. Jeff Legwold of the Denver Post has an interesting piece Sunday about how Josh McDaniels uses a "short board" when drafting, like his old boss.

Most teams list all potential draft picks on their board. That can top 300 players. The Broncos had under 100 players last year, the only ones that fit what Denver wants to do.

"We want the players on our board that we want on our team -- that's the goal," McDaniels said. "It's the process we go through to make the best decisions, both short- and long-term for our team."

Belichick has reportedly had as few as 25 players on his board one year, which is remarkable.

The approach makes sense, but McDaniels still must show he can pick the right players for such a short draft board.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 03:12 PM
Of course, not... Except he continues to do so, that must be an oversight on my part or maybe I need to redefine my defenition of a lie.

Well, maybe you're more privy to what he has said than I. I'm not doubting you.
I'm just going by what I heard. But that doesn't make me right. Shoot, I thought
at one time that Cutler was "painfully honest," as I once put it . . .

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Lancane
04-15-2010, 03:16 PM
I do believe Goodman was a casualty of the overhaul in the FO, through no
fault of his own. I just believe Mr. Bowlen wanted an entirely new beginning.
Hence, the scrub down.

-----

Sad but true, and what's worse is that Goodman was the odd man out in Denver, with Ellis and Xanders both high and sold on McDaniels' grand plan, he became a casualty or in my opinion at least, because he was not as sold I should say as the others were.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 03:20 PM
Sad but true, and what's worse is that Goodman was the odd man out in Denver, with Ellis and Xanders both high and sold on McDaniels' grand plan, he became a casualty or in my opinion at least, because he was not as sold I should say as the others were.

I know I hated it when the Goodmans were fired. And I thought the timing stunk,
just before the draft. In fact, at the time I thought it was idiocy . . . and I still do
not recall it with a lot of pleasure . . .

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HORSEPOWER 56
04-15-2010, 03:22 PM
You're wasting your time. The anti-McDaniels people aren't where they are based upon logic or reasoning. It's all emotional with them. McDaniels could have a 19-0 season, Shanahan could publicly state that he'd been phoning it in in Denver, Cutler could come forward and state that everything had been his fault and that he'd been a pain in the ass even under Shanahan, and Marshall could state that he loves McDaniels but just couldn't remain in Denver because of prior events, and the anti-McDaniels people would chalk the season up to luck and claim that McDaniels somehow forced those people to make the statements.

You see, that's where you're completely out to lunch. Nobody would complain if the Broncos were winning. We're not, the boy wonder failed to improve this team in his first year even with all his unchecked power and unbridled arrogance. Forcing the team to march to his tune didn't work any better than it was working before.

It IS all about winning. McDaniels is an 8-8 coach. He hasn't proven to be any kind of "savior" and shouldn't be treated like one. He's disenfranchised and traded 2 of the best 5 players we've drafted in a DECADE and looks to be setting up to trade a third.

I can GUARANTEE YOU that had the Broncos gone out and made the playoffs last year or even went 6-0 down the stretch instead of 2-8, losing Marshall wouldn't raise so much ire on this board, but seriously have you ever been part of the Broncos as a fan in a house this divided?

I hate to break this to McDaniels, but fans cheer for the team but also the PLAYERS. I haven't seen one single Broncos "Josh McDaniels" Jersey sold, yet. Maybe he should corner the market on those ass-ugly hoodies he wears like his mentor because the more the Broncos get rid of their "star players" the less revenue they make in Jersey sales. Regardless of what the guys on this board say, nobody really wants a Kyle Orton or Jabbar Gaffney Jersey...

In the end, it's all about winning and Josh hasn't done that yet. He's had a year and hasn't proven anything. In the last several years there have been several ROOKIE HCs who've made the playoffs, some with teams no better (or worse in some cases) than ours was last year. All of the blame for 8-8 rests with Josh McDaniels. Not Orton, not Cutler, not Marshall, not Gaffney, and not the defense. The HC has an 8-8 football team. I'm a Bronco fan, MEDIOCRE is NOT in my vocabulary. I refuse to sit back and watch us become the Cleveland Browns (they traded away all their talented offensive players too then couldn't figure out why their offense sucked) without at least voicing my opinion. IMO, and obviously in some others guys' OPINION, We're screwing up as a franchise.

Folks keep saying "wait and see"! Wait for what? The franchise to plunge even further into mediocrity? What are the odds what McDaniels is doing is actually improving the team? How many "new coaches" come and go every year and all they do is make shit worse? How about all them Bellicheat disciples, have any of them ever left a team in better shape than they found it? No, it's not like I can do anything about it, but why in the hell do I come to a freakin' message board if it's not to express an OPINION?

If you don't like reading my negative banter, tough! Unless I violate the COC, you've got two options, read it, or ignore it. I'm not going to stop posting it just because you say so. So go run to Google really quick and post a picture of a crying baby or a tampon with my post quoted if it makes you feel like a better person, frankly I don't care. This place would absolutely suck ass if we all agreed and got along all the time.

Lancane
04-15-2010, 03:22 PM
Well, maybe you're more privy to what he has said than I. I'm not doubting you.
I'm just going by what I heard. But that doesn't make me right. Shoot, I thought
at one time that Cutler was "painfully honest," as I once put it . . .

-----

I guess that I should not say that Bowlen is a flat out liar, because it would be untrue. He's in away being made to look like such, does that make sense?

yardog
04-15-2010, 03:23 PM
Goodman prepared for the draft long before most, he was a self professed workaholic when it came to his job. Goodman continually spoke with scouts, kept notes on what they heard and saw, many even feel it was because of Goodman and his drive that the Broncos elevated in drafting players as he had more responsibility with it.

And to answer your question, I knew several of the scouts in Denver during the latter half of Shanahan's tenure if you must know Carol, that is why I know a thing or two about the Goodmans and so on. And he had a lot to do with the drafting of Cutler, he had ties within the SEC, he kept a close eye on the players in that division more so then others, and I heard he brought up Jay to Shanahan first, not sure if that is the absolute truth, but I tend to believe what I was told. I knew the Broncos were going to make a move on Cutler, while everyone in the fandom was saying "Yeah, right...we have Plummer", for the same reason I knew we would take Maurice Clarett and yadda, yadda. Point being is that Cutler was Goodman's boy, he wouldn't have allowed a trade whether or not McDaniels wanted it, because unlike Xanders and McDaniels, Goodman believed Jay was the face of the franchise and untradeable.

And Goodman was not simply a scout or heading up that department, he was Vice President of Football Operations / Player Personnel, he and Xanders were both considered Co-General Managers at that point without the titles, the only one with more pull between them and Bowlen was Ellis, and Ellis had long been sold on McDaniels, actually Josh has Ellis to thank for getting the job as head coach.

Josh has Ellis to thank for getting the job as head coach.


:2thumbsdown:

:tsk:

Lancane
04-15-2010, 03:28 PM
I know I hated it when the Goodmans were fired. And I thought the timing stunk,
just before the draft. In fact, at the time I thought it was idiocy . . . and I still do
not recall it with a lot of pleasure . . .

-----

Couldn't agree more, he was a big difference in the personnel department and how we approached the draft. Shanahan actually listened to him, so that should hold some weight, especially since Shanahan was nearly as bullheaded as McDaniels is.

And when I look at Xanders, I don't get that positive G.M. feel, it's more like he's a lap dog, make McDaniels happy...make Ellis happy. Sometimes you need a general manager or someone in such a position to say "Oh no you don't, you can have this and this, but you will not do that." Wasn't that part of the problem with Shanahan?

topscribe
04-15-2010, 03:41 PM
It IS all about winning. McDaniels is an 8-8 coach.

At the end of his first year as HC with NE, Belichick was a 5-11 coach . . . :coffee:

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BigBroncLove
04-15-2010, 03:42 PM
Couldn't agree more, he was a big difference in the personnel department and how we approached the draft. Shanahan actually listened to him, so that should hold some weight, especially since Shanahan was nearly as bullheaded as McDaniels is.

And when I look at Xanders, I don't get that positive G.M. feel, it's more like he's a lap dog, make McDaniels happy...make Ellis happy. Sometimes you need a general manager or someone in such a position to say "Oh no you don't, you can have this and this, but you will not do that." Wasn't that part of the problem with Shanahan?

Well personally, I don't agree with letting the Goodmans go. There is very little doubt that he was an asset to the organization without any red flags to say, "this is why we have to let you."

As for Xanders, I'm not nearly as worried as you. Perhaps that's a good thing or a bad thing. Honestly we have so little time thus far to evaluate him as a GM that he could turn out to be a similar asset such as Goodman, or a yes man in a position that shouldn't have one. The body of work we do have to evaluate him on, gives me hope rather then the alternative. Free agency, as admitted by McD, was largely Xanders work this year. While you'd love to have younger guys brought at some positions, obviously this year's FA was pretty shallow, and who the Broncos brought in were all guys I feel will make us better (whether as starters, rotators, or backups).

Also the trades so far have been either great value or good value for what we did. Not the case always with Sandquist or Shanahan where some trades or acquisitions left you scratching your head. I agree you need GM that will stand ground against a HC and say "no" but I also think that has a time and place. given the fact that not all pieces have been in place for the full transition in scheme and playbook I think it's best, at least currently, to let the HC get the pieces they need. The GM's job is to find the best pieces for the need... which if what McD said at teh coaches/owners meeting in Miami is true, is exactly what happened in FA this year.

As for the draft i think this year will be a better tell as to both Xanders and McD's aptitude for the big crapshoot. My two cents....

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 03:46 PM
At the end of his first year as HC with NE, Belichick was a 5-11 coach . . . :coffee:

-----

Until he got Brady.

Mora was 11-5. . . :coffee:

topscribe
04-15-2010, 04:00 PM
Until he got Brady.

Mora was 11-5. . . :coffee:

Nice try at diversion.

It was mentioned McDaniels is an 8-8 coach after one season. :coffee:

Belichick was a 5-11 coach after one season. :coffee:

I'll leave the jaded analyses to you now. Knock yourself out. :coffee:

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Tempus Fugit
04-15-2010, 04:02 PM
You see, that's where you're completely out to lunch. Nobody would complain if the Broncos were winning.


I'm sorry, but this is a load of bull. Feel free to go back and look at last season, when the Broncos started out 6-0 and people were still pissing and moaning about all things McDaniels. I wasn't just making some unsupported assumption, because what I was talking about happened on a lesser level less than a year ago.

By the way.... regarding Marshall:


Marshall surprisingly said he could have co-existed with Josh McDaniels in Denver and played another year there, pointing to how rocky last year started.

"Josh and I got along great," Marshall said.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/04/15/marshall-on-denver-days-josh-and-i-got-along-great/

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 04:36 PM
Nice try at diversion.

It was mentioned McDaniels is an 8-8 coach after one season. :coffee:

Belichick was a 5-11 coach after one season. :coffee:

I'll leave the jaded analyses to you now. Knock yourself out. :coffee:

-----

And Shanahan was 8 - 8 his first year as head coach with the Broncos, AND #7 was his QB - OH, and he had already held a head coaching position with Oakland - and OH - his last year with the Broncos, he was 8 - 8

pnbronco
04-15-2010, 05:01 PM
And Shanahan was 8 - 8 his first year as head coach with the Broncos, AND #7 was his QB - OH, and he had already held a head coaching position with Oakland - and OH - his last year with the Broncos, he was 8 - 8

And OH Cutler was Shanny QB on that 8-8 last year. And OH I never thought I would enjoy doing my taxes more than being on a Bronco Board......:tsk:

broncophan
04-15-2010, 05:31 PM
I for hope for our sake he's not. But at least we won't be "tied into" another average QB in the NFL, like Jay Cutler.

I think you are giving Cutler more credit than he deserves....

atwater27
04-15-2010, 06:03 PM
1.) The team won 8 games last season against a tough schedule and with a new coach implementing a new system on both offense and defense, with a WR1 that was pissed off about something that had nothing to do with the new coach, with the necessity of having to trade a QB who was butthurt about losing his earlier coach and O.C. and with it being his first year as a head coach on the NFL level. That 8 game victory total was the same as Shanahan had gotten the year before, and that .500 winning percentage is the same that Shanahan and Cutler had managed over the last three years of their collaboration. I don't see you snacking on even a syllable, never mind eating your words.
Sylabble snacking? Cute. Fact is, he took an offense with a ton of talent and promise and destroyed it. He won 8 games in a SORRY ASS DIVISION. Wow. Color me impressed.
2.) Go back and look at my posts. I don't think you'll find a whole lot of Shanahan blaming. Sometimes even great coaches need a change or a break. That seems to have been the case with Shanahan, for whatever reason.Fair enough

3.) Cutler is not worth discussing. The weeping and gnashing of teeth over him last year was ridiculous. His loss was going to kill the Broncos in the standings, and the team was going to be much worse than they'd been the year before because it was Orton, instead of Cutler, under center. Instead, the team matched the last season's win totals. Again, I don't see those people snacking on a single syllable, so why bother talking about him when it's clearly not going to be a rational discussion with his sycophants?Cutler is a better QB than Orton. I can't even believe we are having this conversation. Ask every NFL personell guy who they would prefer, then cower in shame.

4.) McDaniels has shown that he can take a team in his first season as head coach while replacing a highly respected coach and completely altering the team's systems and personnel, and still match that former coach's last year win total. That's only TOTALLY UNPROVEN to people who aren't being rational and reasonable on the subject.Again. The toothless chiefs. the hapless raiders. the freefalling chargers. Detroit could go 8-8 in the current AFC West. And I'll give McDaniels part of my 10 percent credit. The Mike Nolan hire. I would say Mr. Nolan had more to do with improving our defense than McDaniels. So we let him go. Makes perfect sense.

5.) While you disagreeing with 90% of McDaniels' decisions is your right, you making that claim reinforces my point about the anti-McDaniels crowd. There's no way in hell he's had a 90% error rate in his decision making since taking over the Broncos.

He is a young punk who swaggers as if his last name was Parcells or Belichick. The Alphonso Smith pick was effing TERRIBLE!!!The my way or the highway approach is obviously working.:rolleyes:

atwater27
04-15-2010, 06:10 PM
In regards to whoever posted that it was Coach McDaniels' decision to get rid of the Goodmans, this article proves that false. It appears after "do it all Shanahan" was fired, Pat Bowlen needed a GM.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_11691214?source=rss

Broncos owner Pat Bowlen on Thursday made another major change at the top of the organization when he named Brian Xanders as general manager and fired Jim Goodman and Jeff Goodman.

The 37-year-old Xanders, who was assistant general manager last season, has been part of a three-headed team of unofficial general managers along with the Goodmans — father Jim was the vice president of football operations and son Jeff was an assistant GM — since Mike Shananan's firing as head coach and GM on Dec. 30.

Bowlen said he felt he needed to streamline the personnel department further, and decided Xanders was the man he wanted to be his general manager. With that decision made, Bowlen said he didn't think Jeff Goodman would want to remain in Denver, and that Jim Goodman would not be comfortable staying without his son.

"Really, what I was interested in doing was re-setting the way we do business around here," Bowlen said. "Brian Xanders was what I considered a true general manager."

Xanders will be in charge of player personnel issues, including scouting and contract negotiations, though McDaniels will likely have the final say in selecting the roster. Bowlen said both Xanders and McDaniels will independently report to him.

Xanders was hired by the Broncos on May 5, 2008, after spending 14 years with the Atlanta Falcons. He is considered an expert on the business side of personnel matters, especially in dealing with the salary cap and contract negotiations. The team is expected to hire another person to assist Xanders and McDaniels in player evaluation.

"This appointment comes with unfortunate circumstances as I have enjoyed working with Jim and Jeff over the last year," Xanders said in a statement released by the team. "Nevertheless, I am humbled by this opportunity and accept it as a great challenge on behalf of our fans, our community, Mr. Bowlen and the organization."

The team began releasing players Wednesday, and Xanders, McDaniels and their collective staffs will begin evaluating players at the NFL Combine in Indianapolis starting Feb. 18.

LMAO.... And I am sure Mr. egomaniac McDaniels had NOOOOTHing to do with "Bowlen's" decision. Riiiiiiiight. His inability to work with other football minds foer the better of the team is one of the major, major faults of McD. Mike Nolan would agree.

atwater27
04-15-2010, 06:14 PM
Orton's longest ball in the air, as I wrote in English right here in this thread, was
65 yards. It was the "hail Mary" pass at the end of the first half of the NE game.

-----

Wow. That monster arm really translates well onto the field.

Krugan
04-15-2010, 06:24 PM
[QUOTE=HORSEPOWER 56;949237]
I hate to break this to McDaniels, but fans cheer for the team but also the PLAYERS. I haven't seen one single Broncos "Josh McDaniels" Jersey sold, yet. Maybe he should corner the market on those ass-ugly hoodies he wears like his mentor because the more the Broncos get rid of their "star players" the less revenue they make in Jersey sales. Regardless of what the guys on this board say, nobody really wants a Kyle Orton or Jabbar Gaffney Jersey...[/QUO

Just wanted to say, I wont be being anymore named clothing. Mostly due to the constant shuffle of players.

This by no means is a lable just for the Broncos, but the NFL as a whole. I will continue to buy the basic Bronco hat 3 times a year and maybe a tshirt hear and there, but the big money is in the jerseys.

Well, not big money, but the cost to us as consumers anyway.

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 06:58 PM
And Shanahan was 8 - 8 his first year as head coach with the Broncos, AND #7 was his QB - OH, and he had already held a head coaching position with Oakland - and OH - his last year with the Broncos, he was 8 - 8


So - someone sent me an MHS in regards to this post. This is exactly what the MHS said:

"good job. bashing Shanny to make a point."

So, stating the FACTS in regards to Shanahan is bashing him, BUT absolutely NO bashing when some people post the same thing about Coach McD - VERY INTERESTING:rolleyes:

topscribe
04-15-2010, 07:30 PM
Wow. That monster arm really translates well onto the field.

When you do not have an answer, the best policy is not to answer.

Sarcasm in such as this contributes little to a conversation.

-----

EMB6903
04-15-2010, 07:37 PM
he keeps pointing out a worthless 65 yard pass...

why I ask?

Orton's arm is below average. If you want to base 1 throw that had absolutely nothing to do with the game then go for it.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 07:39 PM
he keeps pointing out a worthless 65 yard pass...

why I ask?

Orton's arm is below average. If you want to base 1 throw that had absolutely nothing to do with the game then go for it.

I have pointed out a tremendous number of different facts over the past several months.

In fact, I pointed out several different facts right here in this thread.

-----

EMB6903
04-15-2010, 07:47 PM
I have pointed out a tremendous number of different facts over the past several months.

In fact, I pointed out several different facts right here in this thread.

Perhaps a class in reading comprehension might help?

-----

I guess it might help, because so far ever since I've argued with you about Orton all you have done was throw out excuses over Orton's lack of production in the 2nd half of the year for the second straight year.

but hey! he did throw one hell of a deep ball at the end of the first half during the Pats/Broncos game. 65 yards!

topscribe
04-15-2010, 07:50 PM
I guess it might help, because so far ever since I've argued with you about Orton all you have done was throw out excuses over Orton's lack of production in the 2nd half of the year for the second straight year.

but hey! he did throw one hell of a deep ball at the end of the first half during the Pats/Broncos game. 65 yards!

I have never said anything about lack of production regarding Orton.

Now, would you perhaps have something honest to say? Or are personal insinuations your M.O.?

-----

EMB6903
04-15-2010, 07:59 PM
On second thought, perhaps such a class would not help you at all.

I have never said anything about lack of production regarding Orton.

Now, would you perhaps have something honest to say? Or are personal insinuations your M.O.?

-----

But you are sure quick to point to excuses though right?


Actually, pretty well in 2008, considering he played the last half of the year with a
high ankle sprain on his push-off ankle.(I'm not in this Cutler vs. Orton debate. Just answered that one question.)

-----


You not only do not know about high ankle sprains, but you also do not know Orton.

It is documented on three different boards how I studied Orton, especially his
2008 year. There was a significant difference between the first half of the year
and the second half.

In the second half, his throws did not have near the velocity or accuracy as they
did in the first half, and his mobility suffered substantially.

Now, before you go and say he had no mobility, anyway, you are wrong. I saw
him outrun linebackers around the flank and take it up the middle for good
yardage. Last year's final game against KC was a demonstration of his mobility.
No, he is not another Fran Tarkenton by any stretch, but he does have mobility.

And he has an arm, a very good one. His "hail Mary" pass at the end of the first
half of the NE game last year went 65 yards in the air. Several times, he has
thrown completions of 50+ yards in the air, including in the Washington game
and the final KC game last year. In fact, he came into the league with the
reputation as a strong-armed QB.

Now, a QB needs both his legs healthy to be effective in passing (mobility
speaks for itself in such situations). I never had a high sprain, but I did have a
deep bruise on my right ankle that causes excruciating pain when I tried to
push off on it when attempting to pass. Believe me, it takes something off the
ball . . . a lot off the ball, in fact.
Nonetheless, I have never used that as an "excuse" when discussing Orton.
Rather, I have expressed my admiration that he did as well as he did on bad
wheels . . . both in 2008 and 2009. I'm just eager to see how much better he
can do in 2010, assuming he is healthy.

you are an absolute kick my man.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 08:04 PM
But you are sure quick to point to excuses though right?





you are an absolute kick my man.

I am not your man.

It is really amazing to me that I can express my liking of a certain player and
provide documentation as to why I like him, and that brings out the idiots who
somehow think they are contributing to the board by making me the topic.

When I am talking about Orton, I am talking about Orton. When I am talking
about McDaniels, I am talking about McDaniels. I am not talking about you. I
expect the same courtesy. If you do not have something intelligent to offer,
then keep your peace. You are not adding to the board in any way.

------

EMB6903
04-15-2010, 08:13 PM
I am not your man.

It is really amazing to me that I can express my liking of a certain player and
provide documentation as to why I like him, and that brings out the idiots who
somehow think they are contributing to the board by making me the topic.

When I am talking about Orton, I am talking about Orton. When I am talking
about McDaniels, I am talking about McDaniels. I am not talking about you. I
expect the same courtesy. If you do not have something intelligent to offer,
then keep your peace. You are not adding to the board in any way.

------

lol what the hell are you talking about my man?.. Dont get hurt because I pointed out how many times you have made excuses for Orton. There are many people here who will let people like you talk out of your *** but Im gonna call you out on ignorant comments.

Really man, chill out.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 08:17 PM
lol what the hell are you talking about my man?.. Dont get hurt because I pointed out how many times you have made excuses for Orton.

Really man, chill out.

I am not your man.

Do you have something to say about something besides me? If you have no
answer to my comments, then don't answer. Making me the topic only exposes
your ignorance.

On the second thought, carry on. This is my last response to you on this. I should
hold my own peace and allow you to make a fool of yourself. You don't need my
help . . . :coffee:


Now, as for me, :focus:


-----

EMB6903
04-15-2010, 08:20 PM
I am not your man.

Do you have something to say about something besides me? If you have no
answer to my comments, then don't answer. Making me the topic only exposes
your ignorance.

On the second thought, carry on. This is my last response to you on this. I should
hold my own peace and allow you to make a fool of yourself. You don't need my
help . . . :coffee:

-----

^youre the one writing paragraphs about me man.

Listen...I understand Orton can throw a 65 yard pass that falls for an incompletion I just dont think he can compete on a consistent basis during a 16 game season, not to mention he has shown he cant stay healthy. Orton is obviously a stop gap at this point and whoever thinks otherwise is going to be upset

spikerman
04-15-2010, 08:22 PM
Anybody else think it's funny that a thread titled "So Sick of all the Hate!" is bringing out a lot of hate?

Cugel
04-15-2010, 08:27 PM
Personally, I hate the Marshall trade. But, we'll just see at the end of the season where the team stands.

McDaniels wants to build the team "his way." Fine. Let's just tote up the wins. No excuses. NO "it was a tough schedule and they did better than expected."

In short, none of the B.S. excuses we've heard from the fans ever since McDaniels came here. Put up or hit the road.

The fans are in a rebellious mood right now. 1/2 the fans are defending McDaniels and making endless excuses for him, and the other half want him tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.

Fans who reflexively try and defend McDaniels and attack Marshall may wind up having the last laugh if the Broncos win and McDaniels keeps his job.

Personally, I've been through all this before. I remember the Wade Phillips era. You couldn't say anything against Wade Phillips after his first year in Denver or the homers would jump down your throat.

But, there weren't any homers left in Phillip's corner after season #2. The South stands after that last home game was one of the most brutal things I've ever witnessed. The pure HATE pouring down on Phillips at the end of that game was something to see.

And Bowlen knew he had to get rid of Phillips. You can't keep a coach around after the fans have given up on him. It's just too hard on the franchise.

Right now, only 1/2 the fans have given up on McDaniels and he still can win them back by a successful season.

Success = playoffs. And WIN in the playoffs, don't just squeeze in as the last wild-card and then become an afterthought by getting blown out in the first week like the Chiefs did a couple of years ago.

But, if he doesn't turn this team around in a hurry, I'll personally volunteer to kick him on his way out of town.

I won't be the only one. :coffee:

topscribe
04-15-2010, 08:28 PM
Anybody else think it's funny that a thread titled "So Sick of all the Hate!" is bringing out a lot of hate?

True. But if people would stick to the topic, it would help.

I love a good debate about a player or concept, and some of those who thoroughly
disagree with me number, and remain, among my best friends on the board.

If people would talk about a player or a concept and stick to that and answer
each other in an intelligent manner without allusions toward each other's
character, without trying to ridicule and denigrate each other personally, it would
make for a better board.

Those who cannot manage that should just leave. Period.

-----

topscribe
04-15-2010, 08:31 PM
Personally, I hate the Marshall trade. But, we'll just see at the end of the season where the team stands.

McDaniels wants to build the team "his way." Fine. Let's just tote up the wins. No excuses. NO "it was a tough schedule and they did better than expected."

In short, none of the B.S. excuses we've heard from the fans ever since McDaniels came here. Put up or hit the road.

The fans are in a rebellious mood right now. 1/2 the fans are defending McDaniels and making endless excuses for him, and the other half want him tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.

Fans who reflexively try and defend McDaniels and attack Marshall may wind up having the last laugh if the Broncos win and McDaniels keeps his job.

Personally, I've been through all this before. I remember the Wade Phillips era. You couldn't say anything against Wade Phillips after his first year in Denver or the homers would jump down your throat.

But, there weren't any homers left in Phillip's corner after season #2. The South stands after that last home game was one of the most brutal things I've ever witnessed. The pure HATE pouring down on Phillips at the end of that game was something to see.

And Bowlen knew he had to get rid of Phillips. You can't keep a coach around after the fans have given up on him. It's just too hard on the franchise.

Right now, only 1/2 the fans have given up on McDaniels and he still can win them back by a successful season.

Success = playoffs. And WIN in the playoffs, don't just squeeze in as the last wild-card and then become an afterthought by getting blown out in the first week like the Chiefs did a couple of years ago.

But, if he doesn't turn this team around in a hurry, I'll personally volunteer to kick him on his way out of town.

I won't be the only one. :coffee:

Now, take Cug here. Cug and I have never agreed a whole lot. But we have
always respected each other. (At least, I have always respected him.) Why?
Because this guy talks about the topic at hand, not the person with whom he
is discussing it. And he is a knowledgeable, very tough debater. But always
respectful.

How'ya doing, Cug? :wave:

-----

sakic_avs
04-15-2010, 08:46 PM
I am not your man.

Do you have something to say about something besides me? If you have no
answer to my comments, then don't answer. Making me the topic only exposes
your ignorance.

On the second thought, carry on. This is my last response to you on this. I should
hold my own peace and allow you to make a fool of yourself. You don't need my
help . . . :coffee:


Now, as for me, :focus:


-----

Dude, I don't log into this place very often, especially in the offseason, but twpo nights in. A row and almost everytime I log in you are making it about you. You take everything personallly and point it out at every chance you can get, blaming it on the other person. I think its time to take your own advice.

When you post something, its your opinion, so when someone uses the term 'you' in response to your post its not a personal attack its a response to your opinion which you clearly posted.

Time to wear those grown up pants. It seems to be a problem for you.

SmilinAssasSin27
04-15-2010, 08:46 PM
You guys are a trip. I love it.

My 2 cents. Call it excuse making all ya want, but prior to last season, most here said they'd be happliy surprised if Denver won 6 games...especially looking at the schedule. They won 8. To ignore the transitional growing pains is just closeminded. But many call them "excuses". McDaniels was the one injured the interior of the OLine. And he also hurt Orton after Kyle had a 14 point lead vs Wash.

I'm no "homer" as some would put it, but I am a rational human being. Fact is that Shanny had a country club atmosphere. He couldn't eye defensive talent to save his life and he wouldn't relinquish any duties. He got canned. I wasn't pleased about it, but maybe it was time for a change.

Enter McD...personally, I like the fact that he's changing the mood of the lockerroom. I like that he's going "team" mentality, even if it is a philosophy he learned in NE. He improved the overall talent level of the team last offseason. How many of the guys we let go even made a roster? Not mant. The talent was THAT bad.

Then he ships Cutler. I had mixed feelings and it could have been handled better, but Cutty was a turnover waiting to happen...and he didn't change anything in Chicago.

Next was Nolan. This is the one I don't like. I'll never understand it, but whatever.

Now BMarsh departs. That dude had to go. Aside from his antics, he was about to be a Free Agent and the smart move is to not invest. Besides, I believe he was gonna test the market regardless. Be it the murder or the "boring" night life in Denver, he didn't wanna be here and he acted like an ass to get out. Sucks that his talent is gone, but like I've said before...over 40 teams have won SBs w/o BM. Many more have made the playoffs w/o him. He has yet to get there...same w/ Cutler.

So all in all, it is my beliefe that although some of the departures hurt and are high profile, the team is clearly more talented than it was when Shanny was fired, maybe not as shiney and fancy, but better. I'd bet that at least 1/3 of the NFL coaches would prefer Orton to Cutler given the price tag and Cutty's propencity to turn it over. Our D is WORLDS ahead of where it was a year ago, and we just got deeper.

Maybe McD will flame out. maybe he won't. I just think it's pretty irrational to jump on him after year 1 when his win total was IN FACT a surprise to all of you and the NFL as a whole.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 08:50 PM
what I don't get... is how its been a disillusioned consensus that the Patriots coined the idea of being a "team"

SmilinAssasSin27
04-15-2010, 08:53 PM
what I don't get... is how its been a disillusioned consensus that the Patriots coined the idea of being a "team"

IMHO...another reason for people to hate on McD. Some here point to anything the Pats do and blame him like it's so terrible.

Oh...and there is that SB introduction thing where they don't come out as individuals. I miss the old days of Irvin dancing out of the tunnel.

BigBroncLove
04-15-2010, 08:55 PM
Dude, I don't log into this place very often, especially in the offseason, but twpo nights in. A row and almost everytime I log in you are making it about you. You take everything personallly and point it out at every chance you can get, blaming it on the other person. I think its time to take your own advice.

When you post something, its your opinion, so when someone uses the term 'you' in response to your post its not a personal attack its a response to your opinion which you clearly posted.

Time to wear those grown up pants. It seems to be a problem for you.

What he's talking about is a personal attack. There's a difference in pointing out issues you have with another persons post and disagreeing with it. There's another in pointing out those things and then laughing/insulting/or otherwise belittling an individual because of it. I imagine the post in question deals with the comment "you're a kick man." It might be a small jab, nothing much... but ya know things get heated in a prolonged debate. Little things that can be the difference between an adult conversation and not.

I'm not gonna cast blame or doubt about anything here, but I do think a past thread regarding the same issue became very combative and so emotions run a little high on it. I don't really think EMB was meaning to come across that way, but it may have, and in all honesty who are you to say he can't react to what he feels is a rude comment in an adult way. If he said something rude in response.... i could understand saying something, but if he perceives something he has every right to approach it in an intelligent manner. Just my two cents

topscribe
04-15-2010, 08:58 PM
Dude, I don't log into this place very often, especially in the offseason, but twpo nights in. A row and almost everytime I log in you are making it about you. You take everything personallly and point it out at every chance you can get, blaming it on the other person. I think its time to take your own advice.

When you post something, its your opinion, so when someone uses the term 'you' in response to your post its not a personal attack its a response to your opinion which you clearly posted.

Time to wear those grown up pants. It seems to be a problem for you.

You are still making me the topic.

My suggestion to you is to keep not logging in very often. That would be your contribution.

-----

sakic_avs
04-15-2010, 09:01 PM
What he's talking about is a personal attack. There's a difference in pointing out issues you have with another persons post and disagreeing with it. There's another in pointing out those things and then laughing/insulting/or otherwise belittling an individual because of it. I imagine the post in question deals with the comment "you're a kick man." It might be a small jab, nothing much... but ya know things get heated in a prolonged debate. Little things that can be the difference between an adult conversation and not.

I'm not gonna cast blame or doubt about anything here, but I do think a past thread regarding the same issue became very combative and so emotions run a little high on it. I don't really think EMB was meaning to come across that way, but it may have, and in all honesty who are you to say he can't react to what he feels is a rude comment in an adult way. If he said something rude in response.... i could understand saying something, but if he perceives something he has every right to approach it in an intelligent manner. Just my two cents

Oh, in general I agree with the man. I think Orton is a solid quarterback who has and will win games.

But two nights in a row I've logged on and read about him, because he brought it up, not because other posters did. He clearly needs a thicker skin.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 09:04 PM
IMHO...another reason for people to hate on McD. Some here point to anything the Pats do and blame him like it's so terrible.

Oh...and there is that SB introduction thing where they don't come out as individuals. I miss the old days of Irvin dancing out of the tunnel.

I think you may have misunderstand. I don't care what the Pats do, but the Pats are NOT the first team that believed in 'team' mentality and concept. They just aren't. They didn't coin the phrase "there is no I in team." That was around LONG before the Patriots had their run. The Patriots are NOT the first to preach "team before individual."

Yet.... if someone mentions "team" they act as though it came from NE..... like chowder.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 09:05 PM
What he's talking about is a personal attack. There's a difference in pointing out issues you have with another persons post and disagreeing with it. There's another in pointing out those things and then laughing/insulting/or otherwise belittling an individual because of it. I imagine the post in question deals with the comment "you're a kick man." It might be a small jab, nothing much... but ya know things get heated in a prolonged debate. Little things that can be the difference between an adult conversation and not.

I'm not gonna cast blame or doubt about anything here, but I do think a past thread regarding the same issue became very combative and so emotions run a little high on it. I don't really think EMB was meaning to come across that way, but it may have, and in all honesty who are you to say he can't react to what he feels is a rude comment in an adult way. If he said something rude in response.... i could understand saying something, but if he perceives something he has every right to approach it in an intelligent manner. Just my two cents

Thank you. But what I am really referring to goes along with the topic of this
thread. It's not all about me. I see a certain few, some who are reading this
thread right now (from the salutes I see), who cannot seem to discuss a player
or concept without resorting to personal aspersions and attempts at humiliation,
especially when they have run out of answers in a given debate.

I am not referring just to the conversations in which I am involved. I witness
that all the time, and all too often from the same few on the board.

As for me, I have been in intense debates with Claymore, Lancane, Northman,
Turftoad, Dreadnought, Arapaho, and even Jrwiz, and every one of them is
among my friends on the board, of which I have many.

But, contrary to what some of the smaller minds believe, it is not all about me.
It is all about the board, in which I have a special interest (see my sig).

-----

BigBroncLove
04-15-2010, 09:09 PM
Oh, in general I agree with the man. I think Orton is a solid quarterback who has and will win games.

But two nights in a row I've logged on and read about him, because he brought it up, not because other posters did. He clearly needs a thicker skin.

Well adding new insults to the mix, though meant in a good way, doesn't help :P

I'm not gonna comment on that cause he may well have. Hoenstly ya know I have two issues with the internet. One is that almost no one wants to be wrong which means things get awful angry sometimes. Everyone wants to preach, no one wants to listen. The other is the fact people can't relate how they speak to another person face to face then how they approach those same discussions online. Normally people operate under a certain veil of civility, however they feel inside. If they don't... well usually they are younger or it can lead to downright hostility or physcial confrontation. Now a good christian such as myself would never partake in either! ;)

Seriously though I see your point... I just don't see how insults improve a debate. It's a bit childish and seriously I doubt if any of us spoke in person the conversations would be nearly as rude as some here. So I may not agree with the example that top put out as it being done before, but I did agree once in the past, and he makes good point.

But as I said, though applying to me now, I won't tell someone to not say something if they are being civil. Heck... enough rude behavior goes un-censured or commented upon. If I'm going to be completely off football topics, I'd rather point out posts that should be nicer then those that avoid rudeness (however I feel about the precision or clarity of the post).

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 09:10 PM
Great post SmilinAssasSin27

I had to laugh when I read the following stated by Brandon today:

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...st-in-denver/1

He said he spoke with Dolphins boss Bill Parcells, who imparted the team philosophy to him.

"'Basically let's win some games.' " Marshall said Parcells told him, "The message here is team first.

It's just really too bad that a couple of past Broncos were not WILLING to accept the fact that Coach McD is no different than many coaches - i.e. TEAM FIRST, and because they were not willing to accept that - LET'S BLAME COACH MCD FOR GETTING RID OF THEM:tsk:

sakic_avs
04-15-2010, 09:13 PM
Thank you. But what I am really referring to goes along with the topic of this
thread. It's not all about me. I see a certain few, some who are reading this
thread right now (from the salutes I see), who cannot seem to discuss a player
or concept without resorting to personal aspersions and attempts at humiliation,
especially when they have run out of answers in a given debate.

I am not referring just to the conversations in which I am involved. I witness
that all the time, and all too often from the same few on the board.

As for me, I have been in intense debates with Claymore, Lancane, Northman,
Turftoad, Dreadnought, Arapaho, and even Jrwiz, and every one of them is
among my friends on the board, of which I have many.

But, contrary to what some of the smaller minds believe, it is not all about me.
It is all about the board, in which I have a special interest (see my sig).

-----

Yes, you are clearly above everyone else. You tell us so all the time.

Your last paragraph clearly tell us this.

Like I said, I agree with you on most points, but you make it about you.

Tempus Fugit
04-15-2010, 09:13 PM
Sylabble snacking? Cute. Fact is, he took an offense with a ton of talent and promise and destroyed it. He won 8 games in a SORRY ASS DIVISION. Wow. Color me impressed.

The "sorry ass division" that the Broncos were in.... isn't that the same "sorry ass division" there were in for the three prior years under Shanahan? What was the team's regular season record during those 3 years?

By the way, that "sorry ass division" was 30-34 in 2009. In 2008, when Shanahan eeked out that same 8-8 record, the same division was 23-41.


Cutler is a better QB than Orton. I can't even believe we are having this conversation. Ask every NFL personell guy who they would prefer, then cower in shame.

Did I make any claim in this thread about Cutler being, or not being, a better QB than Orton? I've made my position on Cutler abundantly clear over time here, and that position has nothing to do with Orton.


Again. The toothless chiefs. the hapless raiders. the freefalling chargers. Detroit could go 8-8 in the current AFC West. And I'll give McDaniels part of my 10 percent credit. The Mike Nolan hire. I would say Mr. Nolan had more to do with improving our defense than McDaniels. So we let him go. Makes perfect sense.

What is your proof that Nolan was responsible for the "improved defense"? I ask because McDaniels is the one that you people like to bash for the way the season ended, yet it was clearly a defensive problem as much as an offensive problem. So, you want to credit Nolan for the defense, but you want to blame McDaniels for the losses that the struggling defense contributed to. This is what I mean when I point out the unreasonableness of the anti-McDaniels people.

3a.) By the way, the defense struggling as the season wore on should have been expected. The team had no business starting off 6-0, and running a 3-4 without a quality NT was destined to catch up to them sooner or later. Just ask the Chiefs. It should come as no surprise to people that the Broncos, Chargers and Chiefs all finished in the bottom 5 of the league against the run, given their NT situations last season.

As for your insulting of the division, I've already crushed that ridiculous argument. The "freefalling Chargers" were an 8-8 team in 2008, and went 13-3 in 2009. But, as I noted, you anti-McDaniels people aren't reasonable.


He is a young punk who swaggers as if his last name was Parcells or Belichick. The Alphonso Smith pick was effing TERRIBLE!!!The my way or the highway approach is obviously working.:rolleyes:

Thanks for offering a perfect example of everything I was pointing out about the anti-McDaniels crew.

SmilinAssasSin27
04-15-2010, 09:14 PM
I think you may have misunderstand. I don't care what the Pats do, but the Pats are NOT the first team that believed in 'team' mentality and concept. They just aren't. They didn't coin the phrase "there is no I in team." That was around LONG before the Patriots had their run. The Patriots are NOT the first to preach "team before individual."

Yet.... if someone mentions "team" they act as though it came from NE..... like chowder.

Then look at paragraph 2 of my post. Many preach it, but noone ever put on the blatant display like the Pats do.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 09:16 PM
Then look at paragraph 2 of my post. Many preach it, but noone ever put on the blatant display like the Pats do.

Mmm..kay. Not sure I agree with that... but oh well. :beer:

topscribe
04-15-2010, 09:16 PM
Yes, you are clearly above everyone else. You tell us so all the time.

Your last paragraph clearly tell us this.

Like I said, I agree with you on most points, but you make it about you.

How does my last paragraph tell you I'm above you? (Please tell me.)

And what is your point, except to keep talking personally about me?

Do you want me to become a better man, like you, or what?

What is your point beyond what you have already said?

Or are you now just arguing?

-----

EMB6903
04-15-2010, 09:18 PM
What he's talking about is a personal attack. There's a difference in pointing out issues you have with another persons post and disagreeing with it. There's another in pointing out those things and then laughing/insulting/or otherwise belittling an individual because of it. I imagine the post in question deals with the comment "you're a kick man." It might be a small jab, nothing much... but ya know things get heated in a prolonged debate. Little things that can be the difference between an adult conversation and not.

I'm not gonna cast blame or doubt about anything here, but I do think a past thread regarding the same issue became very combative and so emotions run a little high on it. I don't really think EMB was meaning to come across that way, but it may have, and in all honesty who are you to say he can't react to what he feels is a rude comment in an adult way. If he said something rude in response.... i could understand saying something, but if he perceives something he has every right to approach it in an intelligent manner. Just my two cents

every time Top has something to say he has his quiet cut downs, I dont take it personal like him though...


Now it has become very clear that you do not know what it is. Very clear . . .


-----


You not only do not know about high ankle sprains, but you also do not know Orton.

-----

I would have qouted the others but he edited them before I could show...."reason for editing=cleanup"

I dont really care much about it and have thought some stuff he said directed at me was funny, Im just pointing it out because youre acting like Im the only one with the attacks.

BigBroncLove
04-15-2010, 09:21 PM
every time Top has something to say he has his quiet cut downs, I dont take it sensitive like him though... for example....all directed at me the past 24 hours...





also several others that he edited to "clean up"

Fair enough... I never said top didn't. I was just saying I agreed that they had no rightful place in a real debate. I also said i didn't take it as you being rude.... This is all just my two cents, though I'll tell ya this. We have done solid job of hijacking this thread. Who wants to hold it ransom?!

topscribe
04-15-2010, 09:25 PM
every time Top has something to say he has his quiet cut downs, I dont take it sensitive like him though... for example....all directed at me the past 24 hours...





also several others that he edited to "clean up"

That is right. I am man enough to go back and clean up what I think was
improper of me. And I announced it in that way by indicating that I said
something improper by entering the word "cleanup." That is part of my
character: something you obviously would not understand.

But don't try to turn it around and say I have been directing anything at you
besides addressing your inaccurate statements about the topic (Orton). I defy
anyone to do a search on my posts, to which you referred, and see whether I
addressed you or whether I addressed your comments. I totally destroyed your
baseless opinions, and you did not take kindly to that. So your recourse is to
aim your remarks at me, ad hominem.

And now you are trying to make me the bad guy in this. Just stick to the topic,
and if you run out of answers, then don't answer. Simple. You will make it more
pleasant for others and for yourself.

-----

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 09:27 PM
OK - all together now - 1 - 2 - 3 - So Sick of all the Hate, So Sick of all the Hate, So Sick of all the Hate.

OK - I feel better now

sakic_avs
04-15-2010, 09:30 PM
How does my last paragraph tell you I'm above you? (Please tell me.)

And what is your point, except to keep talking personally about me?

Do you want me to become a better man, like you, or what?

What is your point beyond what you have already said?

Or are you now just arguing?

-----

You claim to be above taking thing personal, but you make vague refrences to "those with smaller mind." I find that to be ironic.

You make things about you because you get upset with people making obvipous inferences in regards to your opinions.

Just an observance. I could be wrong, butg everytime I log on your complaining about others making things personal, which leads me to believe that you are more concerned with it than anyone else is.

Dreadnought
04-15-2010, 09:30 PM
Great post SmilinAssasSin27

I had to laugh when I read the following stated by Brandon today:

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...st-in-denver/1

He said he spoke with Dolphins boss Bill Parcells, who imparted the team philosophy to him.

"'Basically let's win some games.' " Marshall said Parcells told him, "The message here is team first.

It's just really too bad that a couple of past Broncos were not WILLING to accept the fact that Coach McD is no different than many coaches - i.e. TEAM FIRST, and because they were not willing to accept that - LET'S BLAME COACH MCD FOR GETTING RID OF THEM:tsk:

That kind of gets to the root of discontent with us who ain't so keen on Mcdaniels right about now - and no, I don't think the complaints can be airly dismissed by posting a pic of a crying baby or trying to pretend its all about an ex-QB.

I pretty sure of two things about McDaniels

A) Its about him, not the team. If I'm wrong he's got a damned funny way of showing it. I believe large chunks of the squad totally lost faith in the guy partway through the season exactly because of it. he may preach team, but that means jack and squat - his actions belie it; and

B) He couldn't lead a two man drunk. Why do I say this? Because of the nature of the dive we took in 09 with the season on the line. I've seen a few posts praising the toughness of the team now. I think its the opposite, because the team we were watching in December was as soft as a baby's ass, had no heart at all, and wouldn't play for Mcdaniels. The games against the Faid and the Chiefs were gutless, pure and simple - an embarrasment even eclipsing the season ending fiasco v. SD in '08. Why? Good question, but I suspect because they didn't trust him, which gets back to point A). I think they smelled a phony, and tuned the guy out. Bowlen's checks still cleared after all.

It wasn't all about the final record; 8-8 would have looked good in August, and most of us would have been happy with that if that was the whole story. Somehow though we had become one of the worst teams in the League by the end of the Season, and it clearly wasn't because we had no guys on the roster who can play. With far better talent we were performing on a level with the likes of Seattle and the Rams

Shazam!
04-15-2010, 09:32 PM
This ******* shit is disgusting.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 09:32 PM
Fair enough... I never said top didn't. I was just saying I agreed that they had no rightful place in a real debate. I also said i didn't take it as you being rude.... This is all just my two cents, though I'll tell ya this. We have done solid job of hijacking this thread. Who wants to hold it ransom?!

Why is that "fair enough"? He got his feelings hurt last night because he made a
bunch of baseless claims, and I challenged him on it and documented it. He ran
out of answers because he had no facts to counter it. So he started last night
with his comments, which I ignored, then he brought them to this thread, in which
he addressed me because he still had no answers.

If he considers that "little put downs" from me, that is his problem. But I am not
going to accept being the bad guy here.

-----

Tempus Fugit
04-15-2010, 09:33 PM
That kind of gets to the root of discontent with us who ain't so keen on Mcdaniels right about now - and no, I don't think the complaints can be airly dismissed by posting a pic of a crying baby or trying to pretend its all about an ex-QB.

I pretty sure of two things about McDaniels

A) Its about him, not the team. If I'm wrong he's got a damned funny way of showing it. I believe large chunks of the squad totally lost faith in the guy partway through the season exactly because of it. he may preach team, but that means jack and squat - his actions belie it; and

B) He couldn't lead a two man drunk. Why do I say this? Because of the nature of the dive we took in 09 with the season on the line. I've seen a few posts praising the toughness of the team now. I think its the opposite, because the team we were watching in December was as soft as a baby's ass, had no heart at all, and wouldn't play for Mcdaniels. The games against the Faid and the Chiefs were gutless, pure and simple - an embarrasment even eclipsing the season ending fiasco v. SD in '08. Why? Good question, but I suspect because they didn't trust him, which gets back to point A). I think they smelled a phony, and tuned the guy out. Bowlen's checks still cleared after all.

It wasn't all about the final record; 8-8 would have looked good in August, and most of us would have been happy with that if that was the whole story. Somehow though we had become one of the worst teams in the League by the end of the Season, and it clearly wasn't because we had no guys on the roster who can play. With far better talent we were performing on a level with the likes of Seattle and the Rams

Neither of your assertions make sense. :noidea:

Timmy!
04-15-2010, 09:33 PM
McDaniels
McDaniels
McDaniels.

:heh:

EMB6903
04-15-2010, 09:34 PM
Why is that "fair enough"? He got his feelings hurt last night because he made a
bunch of baseless claims, and I challenged him on it and documented it. He ran
out of answers because he had no facts to counter it. So he started last night
with his comments, which I ignored, then he brought them to this thread, in which
he addressed me because he still had no answers.

If he considers that "little put downs" from me, that is his problem. But I am not
going to accept being the bad guy here.

-----

Im sorry man!

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 09:35 PM
Now BigBronclove, who's just trying to stay out of it and be neutral, is being singled out for somehow attacking and making someone the 'bad guy.' There's that thin skin.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 09:35 PM
You claim to be above taking thing personal, but you make vague refrences to "those with smaller mind." I find that to be ironic.

You make things about you because you get upset with people making obvipous inferences in regards to your opinions.

Just an observance. I could be wrong, butg everytime I log on your complaining about others making things personal, which leads me to believe that you are more concerned with it than anyone else is.

You keep using the term "every time." Quite a coincidence, isn't it? "Every time"
you log in, there I am. Amazing.

And you still have not answered me on how that last paragraph indicated to you
how I place myself above you . . .

-----

topscribe
04-15-2010, 09:36 PM
Now BigBronclove, who's just trying to stay out of it and be neutral, is being singled out for somehow attacking and making someone the 'bad guy.' There's that thin skin.

Ravage, there's not a neutral bone in your body. :lol:

-----

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 09:36 PM
That kind of gets to the root of discontent with us who ain't so keen on Mcdaniels right about now - and no, I don't think the complaints can be airly dismissed by posting a pic of a crying baby or trying to pretend its all about an ex-QB.

I pretty sure of two things about McDaniels

A) Its about him, not the team. If I'm wrong he's got a damned funny way of showing it. I believe large chunks of the squad totally lost faith in the guy partway through the season exactly because of it. he may preach team, but that means jack and squat - his actions belie it; and

B) He couldn't lead a two man drunk. Why do I say this? Because of the nature of the dive we took in 09 with the season on the line. I've seen a few posts praising the toughness of the team now. I think its the opposite, because the team we were watching in December was as soft as a baby's ass, had no heart at all, and wouldn't play for Mcdaniels. The games against the Faid and the Chiefs were gutless, pure and simple - an embarrasment even eclipsing the season ending fiasco v. SD in '08. Why? Good question, but I suspect because they didn't trust him, which gets back to point A). I think they smelled a phony, and tuned the guy out. Bowlen's checks still cleared after all.

It wasn't all about the final record; 8-8 would have looked good in August, and most of us would have been happy with that if that was the whole story. Somehow though we had become one of the worst teams in the League by the end of the Season, and it clearly wasn't because we had no guys on the roster who can play. With far better talent we were performing on a level with the likes of Seattle and the Rams

And the collapse in 2008 was better????????

The Broncos would be the first team in NFL history to enter the final three weeks of a regular season with a three-game lead and lose all three games.

Tempus Fugit
04-15-2010, 09:40 PM
And the collapse in 2008 was better????????

The Broncos would be the first team in NFL history to enter the final three weeks of a regular season with a three-game lead and lose all three games.

2007 & 2008 seem never to have happened in the minds of the anti-McDaniels crowd.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 09:41 PM
Ravage, there's not a neutral bone in your body. :lol:

-----

I wasn't the one being neutral :lol:

Dreadnought
04-15-2010, 09:42 PM
Neither of your assertions make sense. :noidea:

Why? I think there is ample evidence of both, frankly. If you want to say they make no sense, by all means refute, but I think the evidence leans in my direction. After all, its end results that matter, and watching a team with some pretty decent (i'll agree, not world beating) talent collapse like they did last year tells me there was a major leadership problem.

We had a problem playing soft in the last few years, no question, I'll concede that. Last year we merely doubled down and got even softer after the bye, plus threw in stupid and unimaginative as well. Add in some macho he-man posturing from an immature coach, and its a Bad combo

EMB6903
04-15-2010, 09:42 PM
And the collapse in 2008 was better????????

The Broncos would be the first team in NFL history to enter the final three weeks of a regular season with a three-game lead and lose all three games.

People also forget that heading into that year there were high expectations, Cutler entering his "3rd year in Shanahans offense" which meant automatic success.

In Mcdaniels FIRST YEAR EVER as a HC he definately choked but the fact that he even got to that 6-0 point along with having a chance at the playoffs the last weeks of the regular season was impressive if you ask me.

Mcdaniels is not the best players coach, hes extremely hard headed and has definately made some rookie mistakes that Im sure he'd even tell you he'd take back..... but I dont think there is a coach in this league more prepared then Mcdaniels on a week to week basis. He makes sure his team is ready to compete.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 09:42 PM
You keep using the term "every time." Quite a coincidence, isn't it? "Every time"
you log in, there I am. Amazing.

And you still have not answered me on how that last paragraph indicated to you
how I place myself above you . . .

-----

Okay, I went back and re-read that final paragraph. So I meant what I said. When
I stated that my concern was for the good of this board, in which I have a greater
interest than any other, then those who come back and try to say it is all about
me . . . yes, that is the product of a smaller mind. The answer, then, is to expand
the mind and understand what I am getting at.

-----

Dreadnought
04-15-2010, 09:42 PM
And the collapse in 2008 was better????????

The Broncos would be the first team in NFL history to enter the final three weeks of a regular season with a three-game lead and lose all three games.

Far better, yes. I didn't think it could be worse, but we did it last year, Big time.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 09:43 PM
And the collapse in 2008 was better????????

The Broncos would be the first team in NFL history to enter the final three weeks of a regular season with a three-game lead and lose all three games.

I think the collapse of going 6-0, then no playoff appearance, was worse. Not that the collapse of '08 wsa something to brag about, by any means.

But how is it that using a past collapse/failure, makes a more recent collapse/failure, acceptable?

topscribe
04-15-2010, 09:44 PM
I wasn't the one being neutral :lol:

At least you're honest about it.

(Notice the little put-down there? ;) )

-----

sakic_avs
04-15-2010, 09:45 PM
You keep using the term "every time." Quite a coincidence, isn't it? "Every time"
you log in, there I am. Amazing.

And you still have not answered me on how that last paragraph indicated to you
how I place myself above you . . .

-----

You really are something else.

If you can't figure out how your comment about "those with smaller minds" isn't a holier than thou comment, and you can't understand that you make things personal because you make them personal, I can't help you.

Like I've said, I've agreed with most of your stances, but your holier than thou attitude and immediate assumptions of people being personal is offputting. Especially when you have no problem being 'personal' with others.

BigBroncLove
04-15-2010, 09:47 PM
Why is that "fair enough"? He got his feelings hurt last night because he made a
bunch of baseless claims, and I challenged him on it and documented it. He ran
out of answers because he had no facts to counter it. So he started last night
with his comments, which I ignored, then he brought them to this thread, in which
he addressed me because he still had no answers.

If he considers that "little put downs" from me, that is his problem. But I am not
going to accept being the bad guy here.

-----

If he took them that way that's his business. I'm not going to tell him they weren't. He has every right to bring them up as you have yours. If you want to give further background that's your business.

As I said... again.... I'm not going to say someone shouldn't post something if its civil.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 09:48 PM
You really are something else.

If you can't figure out how your comment about "those with smaller minds" isn't a holier than thou comment, and you can't understand that you make things personal because you make them personal, I can't help you.

Like I've said, I've agreed with most of your stances, but your holier than thou attitude and immediate assumptions of people being personal is offputting. Especially when you have no problem being 'personal' with others.

Read this.

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=949668&postcount=190

Otherwise, opinion noted. :coffee:

Now, if you will, go back to Post #1 and read the OP. Notice I am not part of
the topic. So, with that in mind, :focus:

-----

Tempus Fugit
04-15-2010, 09:48 PM
Why? I think there is ample evidence of both, frankly. If you want to say they make no sense, by all means refute, but I think the evidence leans in my direction. After all, its end results that matter, and watching a team with some pretty decent (i'll agree, not world beating) talent collapse like they did last year tells me there was a major leadership problem.

We had a problem playing soft in the last few years, no question, I'll concede that. Last year we merely doubled down and got even softer after the bye, plus threw in stupid and unimaginative as well. Add in some macho he-man posturing from an immature coach, and its a Bad combo

The first assertion is nothing more than your bias. The "lost team" theory? Please.... Given the comments of the players themselves, you're making that up out of whole cloth.

The second assertion ignores that:

1.) The same person who led the 'collapse' led the 6-0 start.

2.) The 2008 collapse was far worse


The team, as you yourself noted, was about an 8-8 team in the first place. Heck, I believe that many of you McDaniels bashers had the team faring a lot worse than that when you were predicting records. Now, thought, in order to take a clear non-issue (the record) and turn it into a McDaniels bashfest, you change it from the record of the season to the record of the stretch that most favors your rantings.


As I stated, neither of your assertions make sense.

EMB6903
04-15-2010, 09:49 PM
I think the collapse of going 6-0, then no playoff appearance, was worse. Not that the collapse of '08 wsa something to brag about, by any means.

But how is it that using a past collapse/failure, makes a more recent collapse/failure, acceptable?

May I ask you what your expectations were heading into the 2008 season compared to the 2009 season?

for me?

In 2008 with a veteran HC and a QB who knew the offense I expected for Denver to win atleast 10 games along with a playoff win.

in 2009 with a rookie HC who looks like a 23 year old I expected Denver to go 5-11 at best.

Im impressed with the fact that Mcdaniels put that team in a position to choke, you and I both know that team overachieved this past year.... winning 8 games playing divisons like the afc north and nfc east with a rookie HC, new offensive scheme, new defensive scheme, along with 60% of the roster from the previous year being changed.

I have faith in Mcdaniels.

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 09:50 PM
Far better, yes. I didn't think it could be worse, but we did it last year, Big time.

How could last year have been worse? The end result was the same - The Broncos did NOT make the playoffs either year :confused: Now we are down to trying to say that it was worse that the Broncos did not make the playoffs under Coach McD, than it was under Shanahan, with a QB who some feel was a franchise QB?

EMB6903
04-15-2010, 09:51 PM
2008 season was worse because the expectations were much higher.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 09:52 PM
How could last year have been worse? The end result was the same - The Broncos did NOT make the playoffs either year :confused: Now we are down to trying to say that it was worse that the Broncos did not make the playoffs under Coach McD, than it was under Shanahan, with a QB who some feel was a franchise QB?

2008 was far, far worse for me. Are you kidding? Three games up with three
games to go, and the Broncos lost all three? Whoever heard of that? In all my
years of following the Broncos, I had never seen anything like that.

No, 2009 was not pleasant, but 2008 was a shock from which I am still recovering . . .

-----

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 09:55 PM
I think the collapse of going 6-0, then no playoff appearance, was worse. Not that the collapse of '08 wsa something to brag about, by any means.

But how is it that using a past collapse/failure, makes a more recent collapse/failure, acceptable?

I did not say that anything makes last year's collapse acceptable, no more than the 2008 collapse was acceptable. My point is OBVIOUS - many on here will take any chance they can to BASH Coach McD, when he did ever bit as GOOD as Shanahan did, when comparing 2008 to 2009.

sakic_avs
04-15-2010, 09:56 PM
Read this.

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=949668&postcount=190

Otherwise, opinion noted. :coffee:

Now, if you will, go back to Post #1 and read the OP. Notice I am not part of
the topic. So, with that in mind, :focus:

-----

You certainly are more important than the rest of us. You remind us at every turn. But, I digress, its not about you even though you want it to be.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 09:58 PM
May I ask you what your expectations were heading into the 2008 season compared to the 2009 season?

for me?

In 2008 with a veteran HC and a QB who knew the offense I expected for Denver to win atleast 10 games along with a playoff win.

in 2009 with a rookie HC who looks like a 23 year old I expected Denver to go 5-11 at best.

Im impressed with the fact that Mcdaniels put that team in a position to choke, you and I both know that team overachieved this past year.... winning 8 games playing divisons like the afc north and nfc east with a rookie HC, new offensive scheme, new defensive scheme, along with 60% of the roster from the previous year being changed.

I have faith in Mcdaniels.

They over achieved defensively by completely shutting out the opposing team in 5 of 6 straight games. Thus winning because of the defense. As soon as teams scored, our offense could not keep up. I think the 'new system' excuse is used WAY too much.

But pre-season expectations don't mean much. Expectations change as the season goes. If a player gets hurt, expectations may go down. If a rookie BURSTS to the scene, expectations may go up. If an injury on ANOTHER team happens, your expectations change for your team. So after going 6-0 .. expectations rose right along with it. But the horrendous collapse of finishing 2-8 after going 6-0? Thats nothing to be impressed about. Thats looking at the 'final' record in a bubble without looking as to how it happened.

I mean.... if you have two teams that go 8-8, you can look at the stat sheet and feel both are about the same, and heading on the same path. But when you learn that one finished 8-2 and the other finished 2-8 to finish the season, would you look at them the same? Is one on the rise and one on the fall?

I believe you stated in a couple of posts earlier that you were impressed how our team was always ready to compete. Does that include the last two games of the year?
I rmember people jumping for joy because our team would no longer have "late season collapses" and would no longer have "easy TC and practices"...we would no longer be soft. Yet... we just finished having one of the worst season collapses in NFL history with a 2-8 after going 6-0.

Shazam!
04-15-2010, 09:59 PM
2008 was far, far worse than last year. The Defense was the laughing stock of the League and they gave up the AFC West in the end after leading it from the start.

Switch the Coaches and then it'd be inexcusable to some.

spikerman
04-15-2010, 09:59 PM
Sure 8-8 is 8-8 no matter who the coach is, but I agree with Dread, the fact that the team had a better record than only the Rams and Lions over the last 10 games shows a team trending downwards. To me, that is scary and doesn't give me a warm, fuzzy feeling for the future.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 10:00 PM
You certainly are more important than the rest of us. You remind us at every turn. But, I digress, its not about you even though you want it to be.

There you go again with your "every."

Have you read the OP yet? Apparently not because you are still off-topic.

-----

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 10:01 PM
It is getting old trying to sort thru posts to see which ones are posting about the Broncos, rather than which ones are directing posts at other posters :mad:

Lancane
04-15-2010, 10:02 PM
I did not say that anything makes last year's collapse acceptable, no more than the 2008 collapse was acceptable. My point is OBVIOUS - many on here will take any chance they can to BASH Coach McD, when he did ever bit as GOOD as Shanahan did, when comparing 2008 to 2009.

You know what Carol, you know what makes so many dislike McDaniels? And it's quite simple...

It's the fact that he had a franchise quarterback, a topshelf wideout and a solid offensive line. If he would have tried to impart his offense before jumping the gun to rid himself of Cutler, with the defense we had in 09'...we probably would have been 13-3 won the division and went deep in the playoffs. Instead, because of his decisions we went 8-8 and now have very little talent offensively. Yes, you are correct, we in whole can not compare the last year of Shanahan's tenure with the first in McDaniels'. But it's fair to say that if he does not improve and win this year and surpass 8-8 especially with the decisions made, McDaniels and Xanders could both be gone after the season.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 10:02 PM
I did not say that anything makes last year's collapse acceptable, no more than the 2008 collapse was acceptable. My point is OBVIOUS - many on here will take any chance they can to BASH Coach McD, when he did ever bit as GOOD as Shanahan did, when comparing 2008 to 2009.

But you are using but the past failures to DEFEND this failure..c orrect? Why? Doesn't this colossal collapse stand on its own? Its a failure and one of the worst in the NFL history..... and Shanahan wasn't here. This stands COMPLETELY on McD... no matter what happened before McD got here.

Using past failures to try and defend recent ones is an attempt to deflect away from whats happening (or happened) with McD, because some can't stand to see him get criticized....... but will sure jump on criticizing another in order to defend him.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 10:03 PM
2008 was far, far worse than last year. The Defense was the laughing stock of the League and they gave up the AFC West in the end after leading it from the start.

Switch the Coaches and then it'd be inexcusable to some.

Yep. How many times have we been reminded that McDaniels is an "8-8 coach"?

I was a fan of Shanny's but that doesn't change the fact that his first year with
the Broncos was 8-8, and his last year with the Broncos was 8-8.

So every time the anti-McD forces remind us of that, it would seem to me that
they are implicating Shanahan . . .

-----

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 10:03 PM
Sure 8-8 is 8-8 no matter who the coach is, but I agree with Dread, the fact that the team had a better record than only the Rams and Lions over the last 10 games shows a team trending downwards. To me, that is scary and doesn't give me a warm, fuzzy feeling for the future.

Also, compare the two schedules - I am sure the Broncos' had a much tougher schedule in 2009 than in 2008.

Lancane
04-15-2010, 10:05 PM
2008 was far, far worse than last year. The Defense was the laughing stock of the League and they gave up the AFC West in the end after leading it from the start.

Switch the Coaches and then it'd be inexcusable to some.

Our coach and owner were the laughing stock of the league last year after trading Cutler...

So we shouldn't really compare either, it would be best to say let's just hope that McDaniels can prove otherwise this year and shows improvement.

spikerman
04-15-2010, 10:06 PM
Also, compare the two schedules - I am sure the Broncos' had a much tougher schedule in 2009 than in 2008.
You have to beat the teams in front of you. Toward the end it became apparent that the Broncos didn't have the horses (pun intended) to keep up with the other teams. Unfortunately that lack of firepower was a result, imo, of self-inflicted wounds.

I actually spent the money to fly up and go to the last game against the Chiefs. What I saw was a team that had quit on the season. I thought a knock against Shanahan was that the team didn't always seem ready to play. What I saw that day was as bad as anything I had seen out of a Shanahan coached team.

I guess I'm a pessimist by nature and McDaniels did nothing last year to cure my condition. :)

topscribe
04-15-2010, 10:07 PM
You know what Carol, you know what makes so many dislike McDaniels? And it's quite simple...

It's the fact that he had a franchise quarterback, a topshelf wideout and a solid offensive line. If he would have tried to impart his offense before jumping the gun to rid himself of Cutler, with the defense we had in 09'...we probably would have been 13-3 won the division and went deep in the playoffs. Instead, because of his decisions we went 8-8 and now have very little talent offensively. Yes, you are correct, we in whole can not compare the last year of Shanahan's tenure with the first in McDaniels'. But it's fair to say that if he does not improve and win this year and surpass 8-8 especially with the decisions made, McDaniels and Xanders could both be gone after the season.

Translation: They don't understand what McDaniels is trying to do.

I don't know, at this point, whether or not I am happy with him. I hope he is
going about it in the right way. It seems to me he is, which is why I'm reserving
judgment. I want to see 2010. Then I will either join you or argue with you
some more . . .

Now, please get behind me. (Put-down quota)

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Shazam!
04-15-2010, 10:09 PM
Our coach and owner were the laughing stock of the league last year after trading Cutler...

Actually, no. You can rewrite history all you want. Denver got more than adequate compensation for Cutler and both teams got what they wanted. Some wouldve argued that Chi gave up too much.

If they kept Brandon and paid him this boatload of money, McD would be getting slaughtered here for paying too much.

They let him go, save the money, likely to resign Doom who is the only player they cant let walk IMO, and McD is slaughtered for it.

Its a double-edged sword until he wins, and he hasnt had that chance yet excpt for 1 season.

spikerman
04-15-2010, 10:10 PM
Yep. How many times have we been reminded that McDaniels is an "8-8 coach"?

I was a fan of Shanny's but that doesn't change the fact that his first year with
the Broncos was 8-8, and his last year with the Broncos was 8-8.

So every time the anti-McD forces remind us of that, it would seem to me that
they are implicating Shanahan . . .

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The difference is, in my opinion, that McDaniels inherited a team with a lot more talent, at least on the offensive side of the ball, than Shanahan. I don't think McDaniels gets a pass since he's the one who made sweeping changes in one year. Whether a person agrees with the changes or not, McDaniels went to battle last year with the guys he specifically chose.

Lancane
04-15-2010, 10:10 PM
Translation: They don't understand what McDaniels is trying to do.

I don't know, at this point, whether or not I am happy with him. I hope he is
going about it in the right way. It seems to me he is, which is why I'm reserving
judgment. I want to see 2010. Then I will either join you or argue with you
some more . . .

Now, please get behind me. (Put-down quota)

-----

I can't get behind you...not until Orton is off the roster...lol. I would be more optimistic if Orton was traded (to Oakland) and we were going to let Brandstater and Quinn battle it out for the spot.

:D

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 10:11 PM
But you are using but the past failures to DEFEND this failure..c orrect? Why? Doesn't this colossal collapse stand on its own? Its a failure and one of the worst in the NFL history..... and Shanahan wasn't here. This stands COMPLETELY on McD... no matter what happened before McD got here.

Using past failures to try and defend recent ones is an attempt to deflect away from whats happening (or happened) with McD, because some can't stand to see him get criticized....... but will sure jump on criticizing another in order to defend him.

No, I am NOT using the past failures to DEFEND this failure. I am saying that if Coach McD failed in his first year as a head coach, he should NOT be BASHED, unless a head coach for 16 years is BASHED for the same thing. Was Shanahan BASHED in 1995 - the first year he was the Broncos' head coach for finishing 8 - 8??????

topscribe
04-15-2010, 10:12 PM
Actually, no. You can rewrite history all you want. Denver got more than adequate compensation for Cutler and both teams got what they wanted. Some wouldve argued that Chi gave up too much.

I honesty cannot come out and categorically say that it was a good thing that the
Broncos traded away Cutler.

But I can say that the haul they brought in for him was a stroke of genius. Two
firsts, a third, and another starting QB? Are you kidding?

I'll tell you what . . . whether or not people agree about what happened with
Cutler and Marshall, this FO has been ripping other teams off!! :beer:

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spikerman
04-15-2010, 10:13 PM
Actually, no. You can rewrite history all you want. Denver got more than adequate compensation for Cutler and both teams got what they wanted. Some wouldve argued that Chi gave up too much.
Denver did get a lot in return. I guess I would argue that they wasted the picks and that makes me sad.

EMB6903
04-15-2010, 10:14 PM
Denver did get a lot in return. I guess I would argue that they wasted the picks and that makes me sad.

Robert Ayers is not a wasted pick.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 10:15 PM
I can't get behind you...not until Orton is off the roster...lol. I would be more optimistic if Orton was traded (to Oakland) and we were going to let Brandstater and Quinn battle it out for the spot.

:D

Now you've really gone and hurt my feelings, Cane . . . :pout:

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spikerman
04-15-2010, 10:15 PM
Robert Ayers is not a wasted pick.

I guess that remains to be seen, but you certainly can't make that claim based off of last year. I hope you're right.

Denver Native (Carol)
04-15-2010, 10:15 PM
You know what Carol, you know what makes so many dislike McDaniels? And it's quite simple...

It's the fact that he had a franchise quarterback, a topshelf wideout and a solid offensive line. If he would have tried to impart his offense before jumping the gun to rid himself of Cutler, with the defense we had in 09'...we probably would have been 13-3 won the division and went deep in the playoffs. Instead, because of his decisions we went 8-8 and now have very little talent offensively. Yes, you are correct, we in whole can not compare the last year of Shanahan's tenure with the first in McDaniels'. But it's fair to say that if he does not improve and win this year and surpass 8-8 especially with the decisions made, McDaniels and Xanders could both be gone after the season.

And, if Shanahan had done what the owner ask him to do - "fire Slowick", he would still be the coach, Cutler would still be here, etc, etc., etc.

Tempus Fugit
04-15-2010, 10:17 PM
You know what Carol, you know what makes so many dislike McDaniels? And it's quite simple...

It's the fact that he had a franchise quarterback, a topshelf wideout and a solid offensive line. If he would have tried to impart his offense before jumping the gun to rid himself of Cutler, with the defense we had in 09'...we probably would have been 13-3 won the division and went deep in the playoffs. Instead, because of his decisions we went 8-8 and now have very little talent offensively. Yes, you are correct, we in whole can not compare the last year of Shanahan's tenure with the first in McDaniels'. But it's fair to say that if he does not improve and win this year and surpass 8-8 especially with the decisions made, McDaniels and Xanders could both be gone after the season.

Shouldn't a "franchise QB" have put together at least one winning season in 7+ years, at the college or NFL level? Any QB can be a "franchise" QB if it means that he can lead his team to sub .500 records year after year.

Lancane
04-15-2010, 10:17 PM
Actually, no. You can rewrite history all you want. Denver got more than adequate compensation for Cutler and both teams got what they wanted. Some wouldve argued that Chi gave up too much.

McDaniels was ridiculed left and right, when Belichick denied that he called Josh about a trade he looked like a F'n fool. After he denied it all, and the truth came out he retorted himself and what he had said. It was so bad that media outlets were writing articles that Bowlen's mental health. How is that rewriting history? That is how it happened, so it's a fact not a half-truth or blemished answer to look negative or positive, grasp it and deal with it.

BigBroncLove
04-15-2010, 10:17 PM
I can't get behind you...not until Orton is off the roster...lol. I would be more optimistic if Orton was traded (to Oakland) and we were going to let Brandstater and Quinn battle it out for the spot.

:D

I don't know. Given McD pressing system system system, I would prefer a new man in the league in Brandstater to have the normal three years to develop, or at least two before seeing the field. As for Quinn I really don't want to see a QB come in without being immersed in the system McD runs for at least a year. I know he was in something very similar with Weiss but that was three years ago and it wasn't the exact same thing he was running here. Also for Quinn I'd prefer him to get used to the WR core here a little more so he knows who he can rely on, where he has to put the ball for them, and the route tendencies they have.

I would really like an open QB competition next year. This year I'd prefer to see what Orton can do.... but we all have our preferences.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 10:17 PM
No, I am NOT using the past failures to DEFEND this failure. I am saying that if Coach McD failed in his first year as a head coach, he should NOT be BASHED, unless a head coach for 16 years is BASHED for the same thing. Was Shanahan BASHED in 1995 - the first year he was the Broncos' head coach for finishing 8 - 8??????

I don't know what comparing two coaches, 15 years apart, with two different teams, has anything to do with anyone?

Why not compare him to Jim Mora, whom took over a 5-11 Atlanta team and went his first season to 11-5? Or Sparano, who took his 1-15 Dolphins to 11-5 his first year as HC? Or Smith, whom took the 4-12 Falcons to 11-5 his first year as a HC.

I know I wouldn't.. because they aren't relevant. Just as Shanahan's team, 15 years ago, isn't relevant.

Also.. its not going 8-8.. because there are different ways to get to 8-8. But when you finish the season 2-8, you absolutely deserve criticism for that. Pointing out comparisons from 15 years ago, about a coach that coached a different Broncos team, doesn't change that.

Tempus Fugit
04-15-2010, 10:18 PM
Denver did get a lot in return. I guess I would argue that they wasted the picks and that makes me sad.

When did it become the norm for rookie draftees to become excellent, or even good, players as rookies?

topscribe
04-15-2010, 10:19 PM
I guess that remains to be seen, but you certainly can't make that claim based off of last year. I hope you're right.

Before the draft ever took place last year, Mike Mayock predicted that Ayers
would be the best defensive player in that draft class. He further predicted Ayers
would not start his first year because he was still raw, but that he would come
into his own the second or third year.

Add to that the fact that Ayers missed much of camp, then had to come in and
learn a radically new position to him, while orientating himself to the speed of the
pro game.

Actually, through all that, I have been mildly impressed by Ayers . . .

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Tempus Fugit
04-15-2010, 10:19 PM
McDaniels was ridiculed left and right, when Belichick denied that he called Josh about a trade he looked like a F'n fool. After he denied it all, and the truth came out he retorted himself and what he had said. It was so bad that media outlets were writing articles that Bowlen's mental health. How is that rewriting history? That is how it happened, so it's a fact not a half-truth or blemished answer to look negative or positive, grasp it and deal with it.

You have your story wrong, sorry.

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 10:19 PM
I don't know. Given McD pressing system system system, I would prefer a new man in the league in Brandstater to have the normal three years to develop, or at least two before seeing the field. As for Quinn I really don't want to see a QB come in without being immersed in the system McD runs for at least a year. I know he was in something very similar with Weiss but that was three years ago and it wasn't the exact same thing he was running here. Also for Quinn I'd prefer him to get used to the WR core here a little more so he knows who he can rely on, where he has to put the ball for them, and the route tendencies they have.

I would really like an open QB competition next year. This year I'd prefer to see what Orton can do.... but we all have our preferences.

There really isn't much to learn from system to system. The players always say that the reads are the same.. its the terminology that is the hardest thing to learn. So Quinn will have a huge jump on that, considering I'm sure the terminology is the same.

EMB6903
04-15-2010, 10:20 PM
I guess that remains to be seen, but you certainly can't make that claim based off of last year. I hope you're right.

why not? I thought Ayers played very solid last year.

Shazam!
04-15-2010, 10:20 PM
I honesty cannot come out and categorically say that it was a good thing that the Broncos traded away Cutler.

I hear ya Top but their hands were tied. WTF are the ysupposed to do?! Cut criticized firing Shanny who deserved to be, didnt want to be here, didnt answer the calls from The Owner... Marsh wants a shitload of money and is more than just a headache, hes a bonafide risk in the TO category...

People talk about "Nobody in the League fears playing the Broncos", does anyone here believe they feared them from 2007-08 with a defense that cant stop anyone?

I think too many people here have short term memory loss.

Denver is not the Colts, Patriots, Steelers or even the Chargers before McD came in here and everyone acts like he's putting the 98' Broncos through a compactor. This team was ****ed up before he arrived, if you dont believe that, get your head examined. McD is trying to make them better. He was brought in from a Patriots team the same way Shanahan was in 95 from SF, to bring a Championship model here. The only difference is with Shanny there was John Elway, and dont even say it was a similar position in Denver with Cutler.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 10:24 PM
I hear ya Top but their hands were tied. WTF are the ysupposed to do?! Cut criticized firing Shanny who deserved to be, didnt want to be here, didnt answer the calls from The Owner... Marsh wants a shitload of money and is more than just a headache, hes a bonafide risk in the TO category...

People talk about "Nobody in the League fears playing the Broncos", does anyone here believe they feared them from 2007-08 with a defense that cant stop anyone?

I think too many people here have short term memory loss.

Denver is not the Colts, Patriots, Steelers or even the Chargers before McD came in here and everyone acts like he's putting the 98' Broncos through a compactor. This team was ****ed up before he arrived, if you dont believe that, get your head examined. McD is trying to make them better. He was brought in from a Patriots team the same way Shanahan was in 95 from SF, to bring a Championship model here. The only difference is with Shanny there was John Elway, and dont even say it was a similar position in Denver with Cutler.

I know. You make a lot of sense here. I believe that many of us have been
through so many shocks and disappointments - whether or not they have been
justified - that it is sometimes hard view some things reasonably, you know?

And that might be a reason for "all the hate," as the OP put it. I don't think its
hate. I think we are so disoriented in so many ways that we don't even know
what our arguments are, sometimes . . .

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BigBroncLove
04-15-2010, 10:24 PM
There really isn't much to learn from system to system. The players always say that the reads are the same.. its the terminology that is the hardest thing to learn. So Quinn will have a huge jump on that, considering I'm sure the terminology is the same.

It actually apparently is... terminology wise. A good example of this is when Clausen talked with McDaniels this year at the combine and McDaniels called out a play and asked if Clausen knew it, and clausen did without a doubt.

Just there's so much more IMO as QB coming here to Denver or anywhere for the first time. Obviously knowing the WR's and the routes they run is the biggest thing. Being Quinn needs to improve his accuracy a bit, this is a big issue. If he knows his WR's, even for just a year, his ability to properly place that pass increases a lot. Especially in the NFL, where the speed of the game means the QB's are placing the passes far ahead of where the WR should be. Then, even if he knows say 85% of the system, it still means the playbook isn't wide open. I don't think last year we say one game wit ha wide open playbook. I'd like to see that.... I could be wrong, they may have, but then I'd be worried.

pnbronco
04-15-2010, 10:25 PM
You guys are a trip. I love it.

My 2 cents. Call it excuse making all ya want, but prior to last season, most here said they'd be happliy surprised if Denver won 6 games...especially looking at the schedule. They won 8. To ignore the transitional growing pains is just closeminded. But many call them "excuses". McDaniels was the one injured the interior of the OLine. And he also hurt Orton after Kyle had a 14 point lead vs Wash.

I'm no "homer" as some would put it, but I am a rational human being. Fact is that Shanny had a country club atmosphere. He couldn't eye defensive talent to save his life and he wouldn't relinquish any duties. He got canned. I wasn't pleased about it, but maybe it was time for a change.

Enter McD...personally, I like the fact that he's changing the mood of the lockerroom. I like that he's going "team" mentality, even if it is a philosophy he learned in NE. He improved the overall talent level of the team last offseason. How many of the guys we let go even made a roster? Not mant. The talent was THAT bad.

Then he ships Cutler. I had mixed feelings and it could have been handled better, but Cutty was a turnover waiting to happen...and he didn't change anything in Chicago.

Next was Nolan. This is the one I don't like. I'll never understand it, but whatever.

Now BMarsh departs. That dude had to go. Aside from his antics, he was about to be a Free Agent and the smart move is to not invest. Besides, I believe he was gonna test the market regardless. Be it the murder or the "boring" night life in Denver, he didn't wanna be here and he acted like an ass to get out. Sucks that his talent is gone, but like I've said before...over 40 teams have won SBs w/o BM. Many more have made the playoffs w/o him. He has yet to get there...same w/ Cutler.

So all in all, it is my beliefe that although some of the departures hurt and are high profile, the team is clearly more talented than it was when Shanny was fired, maybe not as shiney and fancy, but better. I'd bet that at least 1/3 of the NFL coaches would prefer Orton to Cutler given the price tag and Cutty's propencity to turn it over. Our D is WORLDS ahead of where it was a year ago, and we just got deeper.

Maybe McD will flame out. maybe he won't. I just think it's pretty irrational to jump on him after year 1 when his win total was IN FACT a surprise to all of you and the NFL as a whole.

This is a great post SA worth posting again.

I told all of you the SI curse was real, but no one believed me. Actually what Haggan said that put it in perspective for me was that the players started to believe the press and lost that mental edge. He said they got use to being behind and being able to come back and win the game.

What I saw at the Raider was not a team that lost faith in their coach but a team that didn't take them serious enough and let them back in. Then they tried to do too much and over compensated and made mistakes trying to force the game.

From the top on down that team was heartbroken, everyone walked off the field and to their cars with their chins on their chests, I'm talking from Coach McD, other coaches, players and staff...everyone was just torn up. I posted this before but I will say it again the year before (2008) the players were planning where they were going to dinner and going on with life as usual.

IMO the 2008 collapse was much worse, the expectations were just higher.

Oh well...hockey playoffs are going on and I can't type and watch.....:D

Lancane
04-15-2010, 10:26 PM
Shouldn't a "franchise QB" have put together at least one winning season in 7+ years, at the college or NFL level? Any QB can be a "franchise" QB if it means that he can lead his team to sub .500 records year after year.

Actually you would be surprised at how many 'Franchise' quarterbacks had horrid or subpar teams at the collegiate level. Troy Aikman did not have a winning season for three years; John Elway had a winning record his second; Jim Kelly also three years; Terry Bradshaw also three years; Joe Montana also three years; Dan Marino like Elway in his second year; Steve Young it took seven years to have his first winning season; Brett Favre one year...do you see the trend? Cutler was entering only his second full year as the starter, what should have been his marker year.

Not everyone can be Elway or Favre, sometimes they're more like Aikman and Montana three or four years and they are ready. Look at Aaron Rodgers...

Ravage!!!
04-15-2010, 10:58 PM
It actually apparently is... terminology wise. A good example of this is when Clausen talked with McDaniels this year at the combine and McDaniels called out a play and asked if Clausen knew it, and clausen did without a doubt.

Just there's so much more IMO as QB coming here to Denver or anywhere for the first time. Obviously knowing the WR's and the routes they run is the biggest thing. Being Quinn needs to improve his accuracy a bit, this is a big issue. If he knows his WR's, even for just a year, his ability to properly place that pass increases a lot. Especially in the NFL, where the speed of the game means the QB's are placing the passes far ahead of where the WR should be. Then, even if he knows say 85% of the system, it still means the playbook isn't wide open. I don't think last year we say one game wit ha wide open playbook. I'd like to see that.... I could be wrong, they may have, but then I'd be worried.

Well.. the good thing is the play calls out the routes. Since the main thing a QB in the NFl needs to learn is reading pro defenses and game speed. Since Quinn has a few years in the league, at least he's not new to those aspects of the game.

So Quinn SHOULD be up to speed as far as the offense goes. He shoul dknow the terminology, has the experience of pro game film/study/ reading defenses, and isn't going to be shocked by game-speed. So truthfully... it should be an open competition.

But... I personally have absolutely NO confidence in Quinn, whatsoever. I know I can't get excited about a single QB we have on the roster.

Tempus Fugit
04-15-2010, 11:08 PM
Actually you would be surprised at how many 'Franchise' quarterbacks had horrid or subpar teams at the collegiate level. Troy Aikman did not have a winning season for three years; John Elway had a winning record his second; Jim Kelly also three years; Terry Bradshaw also three years; Joe Montana also three years; Dan Marino like Elway in his second year; Steve Young it took seven years to have his first winning season; Brett Favre one year...do you see the trend? Cutler was entering only his second full year as the starter, what should have been his marker year.

Not everyone can be Elway or Favre, sometimes they're more like Aikman and Montana three or four years and they are ready. Look at Aaron Rodgers...

Elway had a winning season with Stanford
Aikman had a winning season with UCLA
Kelly had a winning season with Miami
Bradshaw had a winning season with Louisiana Tech
Montana had a winning season at Notre Dame
Marino had a winning season at Pittsburgh
Brett Favre had a winning season at Southern Mississippi
Steve Young had a winning season at BYU


Indeed, I do see a trend there.

topscribe
04-15-2010, 11:13 PM
Elway had a winning season with Stanford
Aikman had a winning season with UCLA
Kelly had a winning season with Miami
Bradshaw had a winning season with Louisiana Tech
Montana had a winning season at Notre Dame
Marino had a winning season at Pittsburgh
Brett Favre had a winning season at Southern Mississippi
Steve Young had a winning season at BYU


Indeed, I do see a trend there.

Orton had a winning record at Purdue. :D



http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/anon.gif



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Northman
04-15-2010, 11:19 PM
Personally, I hate the Marshall trade. But, we'll just see at the end of the season where the team stands.

McDaniels wants to build the team "his way." Fine. Let's just tote up the wins. No excuses. NO "it was a tough schedule and they did better than expected."

In short, none of the B.S. excuses we've heard from the fans ever since McDaniels came here. Put up or hit the road.

The fans are in a rebellious mood right now. 1/2 the fans are defending McDaniels and making endless excuses for him, and the other half want him tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail.

Fans who reflexively try and defend McDaniels and attack Marshall may wind up having the last laugh if the Broncos win and McDaniels keeps his job.

Personally, I've been through all this before. I remember the Wade Phillips era. You couldn't say anything against Wade Phillips after his first year in Denver or the homers would jump down your throat.

But, there weren't any homers left in Phillip's corner after season #2. The South stands after that last home game was one of the most brutal things I've ever witnessed. The pure HATE pouring down on Phillips at the end of that game was something to see.

And Bowlen knew he had to get rid of Phillips. You can't keep a coach around after the fans have given up on him. It's just too hard on the franchise.

Right now, only 1/2 the fans have given up on McDaniels and he still can win them back by a successful season.

Success = playoffs. And WIN in the playoffs, don't just squeeze in as the last wild-card and then become an afterthought by getting blown out in the first week like the Chiefs did a couple of years ago.

But, if he doesn't turn this team around in a hurry, I'll personally volunteer to kick him on his way out of town.

I won't be the only one. :coffee:


Pretty much sums it up.

Northman
04-15-2010, 11:29 PM
I think the collapse of going 6-0, then no playoff appearance, was worse. Not that the collapse of '08 wsa something to brag about, by any means.

But how is it that using a past collapse/failure, makes a more recent collapse/failure, acceptable?

They both sucked but i think playing the team that you are actually fighting for a playoff spot with in 08' is worse when you go in and get giant black dildo rammed up your arse in the process. But in both cases we knew how many games we needed to win to get in and choked them away so really no year is any better or worse than the other.

Northman
04-15-2010, 11:31 PM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2308/2409262309_00e6eb57eb.jpg

Dreadnought
04-15-2010, 11:50 PM
And, if Shanahan had done what the owner ask him to do - "fire Slowick", he would still be the coach, Cutler would still be here, etc, etc., etc.

This I agree on totally. I didn't want Shanahan fired, but Slowick sealed Shanny's fate. I got why they canned him, I really do. That 2008 defense was an abomination. Calvin Lowry? Nate Webster? Marquand Manual? Gack. That Shanny took that team to 8-8, with that dogturd of a defense, and seven RB's KO'd, was in its own way kind of impressive. By the time we played carolina and San Diego I thought we had done all we could. The Buffalo loss was much worse, and inexcusable, but we didn't have the hosses at that point to beat good teams. Our offense stopped scoring as our RB situation deteriorated, and our defense never gave us either field position or cheap points via turnover. Shanny's unwillingness to part with Slowick is inexplicable, barring Slowick having embarrassing nekkid photos of Shanahan or something.

The reason I rate 09 worse is that we lost to Oakland and KC to get aced out of the playoffs. Oakland and KC. You do not lose to teams like that when the season is on the line, you simply don't. And while the injuries of 08 shouldn't be used as a total excuse, they were in fact worse than anything we faced in 09. I've never heard of a team getting as worked over at one position as we did at RB, yet every week we reloaded and came back with another FNG - P.J. Pope, Hillis, whomever. And even there Tatum Bell - straight from the cell phone kiosk at the mall - put anything we saw from Knowshon Moreno to shame in the last couple of weeks.

We were dead men walking by the end of '08. Playoffs? We weren't in any position to be playing in them

topscribe
04-16-2010, 12:07 AM
This I agree on totally. I didn't want Shanahan fired, but Slowick sealed Shanny's fate. I got why they canned him, I really do. That 2008 defense was an abomination. Calvin Lowry? Nate Webster? Marquand Manual? Gack. That Shanny took that team to 8-8, with that dogturd of a defense, and seven RB's KO'd, was in its own way kind of impressive. By the time we played carolina and San Diego I thought we had done all we could. The Buffalo loss was much worse, and inexcusable, but we didn't have the hosses at that point to beat good teams. Our offense stopped scoring as our RB situation deteriorated, and our defense never gave us either field position or cheap points via turnover. Shanny's unwillingness to part with Slowick is inexplicable, barring Slowick having embarrassing nekkid photos of Shanahan or something.

The reason I rate 09 worse is that we lost to Oakland and KC to get aced out of the playoffs. Oakland and KC. You do not lose to teams like that when the season is on the line, you simply don't. And while the injuries of 08 shouldn't be used as a total excuse, they were in fact worse than anything we faced in 09. I've never heard of a team getting as worked over at one position as we did at RB, yet every week we reloaded and came back with another FNG - P.J. Pope, Hillis, whomever. And even there Tatum Bell - straight from the cell phone kiosk at the mall - put anything we saw from Knowshon Moreno to shame in the last couple of weeks.

We were dead men walking by the end of '08. Playoffs? We weren't in any position to be playing in them

Post of the thread. ^^ http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif



Which was worse: 2008 or 2009?

Answer: Yes. :sad:



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topscribe
04-16-2010, 12:43 AM
You certainly are more important than the rest of us. You remind us at every turn. But, I digress, its not about you even though you want it to be.

Aha!! Found it!

I thought I remembered you. I (somehow) got you all aggravated last January.
It was close to your first experience on the board, and you obviously came
away not liking me very much. So I found your motive.

This is highly irregular, I admit, but because of your public accusations of me
("every time" you log on, etc.), I feel compelled to post this exchange from
that thread right here for everyone to see:


Fact: this writer was suspended for plagiarism in 2007 by the Boston Globe. He no lon ger works for the outfit. He works for the Herald. Think New York Daily Post. Yes, tabloid.

Fact: this writer has been involved in numerous physical altercations, most notably with boxing reporter Michael Katz.

Fact: he cites no source in the article.

But, go ahead and believe this crap over Adam Schefter's report.



I don't mean to be offensive, but I wish you would quote the post to which
you're alluding. I haven't read the entire thread, and I'm not about to go back
and scour it to see what you are talking about. That could be the case for
others, too . . .

Oh, and I have never gotten the chance to welcome you to the board. :beer:

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Uh, you know...the original article posted, which I apparently made the mistake of assuming that that was the topic of the thread.



Why the hostility?



Oh, okay. I just didn't take it from the first post. That is why, when you get
down to the third page or so, it may be a good idea to at least indicate to what
you are alluding at that point.

I dropped out of Clairvoyance 101 in my freshman year . . . http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/wink-2.gif

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My apology. I thought the original post was the topic of the thread.

Any comment on the actual subject of my original post?



It's not much of an apology if there's still a little backhanded dash of sarcasm ;)

And I dunno, I didn't really read the full article, I was too lazy. I was just reading peoples reactions, comments, etc. I think Pees will be fine and I like him so I guess it's good the article was written by a bad journalist :D



With that said, why should I apologize to someone who either a.) Doesn't have the wherewithall to actually read a thread, and b.) doesn't know what the topic of the thread is?

Now that you know what the topic of the thread is and have surely gone back and read the article that the thread is about, do you have any comment?



Come clean, are you the author of "How to Win Friends and Influence People"? :D



I dunno, maybe the same reason he wasn't a jerk to you?

And I commented already. I said if all that is true it's good cause I'm not really fond of what the article is preaching.



Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. I was only trying to be helpful.

I just don't always have the time to read everything, as you apparently do, because I work . . . :coffee:

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Well then. Now that you know what the thread is about and have read my original post, do you have any comments that aren't personal in nature?

If not, please take your agenda elsewhere.



Top has been here as long, or longer, than anyone here. I don't think this is a path you want to follow. I'm guessing by your attitude that you're either a Raiders' fan or 12.



Wow.

This is apparently very hard to understand.

I am not the topic of the thread.

The writer and his opinion piece are.

But why read the OP?



Top just asked you to be clear what exactly you were referring to since it wasn't clear and somebody could have easily posted links to other articles or quotes throughout the thread to offer a differing argument.

You're the one that jumped out with the snide remarks. It would have been much easier to just say "Sorry, I was referring to the original poster". And leave it at that.



No agenda. But I understand.

You're having a bad night . . . :)

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There's a bit more, but it doesn't get any more violent than this. :D

Make of it what you will . . .

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BigBroncLove
04-16-2010, 03:06 AM
Well.. the good thing is the play calls out the routes. Since the main thing a QB in the NFl needs to learn is reading pro defenses and game speed. Since Quinn has a few years in the league, at least he's not new to those aspects of the game.

So Quinn SHOULD be up to speed as far as the offense goes. He shoul dknow the terminology, has the experience of pro game film/study/ reading defenses, and isn't going to be shocked by game-speed. So truthfully... it should be an open competition.

But... I personally have absolutely NO confidence in Quinn, whatsoever. I know I can't get excited about a single QB we have on the roster.

The speed of the game was a supporting point to having to know ones WR's route running. More speed changes just how drastically a throw can vary for every throw a QB makes. The adjustments to coverage in the league are pretty impressive that a WR has to make. Not just large playbook coverage adjustments, but the minor ones that WR's make on a regular basis to put themselves in the best position to receive a pass. Beyond the fact some run very rpecise routes, some sloppier ones. I think it's especially important in passers who aren't known for their accuracy which Quinn definitely is not. I think it's very possible a QB's first year with a new team to actually succeed.

I just think if you want Quinn to be really effective in the offense I'd prefer at least a year for adjustment. He doesn't strike me as the type of QB who will make that adjustment in personel without to many hiccups. Though his time with the Browns was surrounded by lesser talent I don't think the Broncos are so drastically better to make it that much easier on Quinn. The Broncos offense is better than the Browns but I think if you make the argument that the supporting casts with say the Colts, Saints, Vikings, or well maybe Greenbay if they plug a leak in that line would make the transition for any QB easier than what the Broncos have... especially one with a past like Quinn.

IMO it would be best for him to have at least one year to make the adjustments he's going to need to make a real run at the job.

Dirk
04-16-2010, 05:47 AM
This I agree on totally. I didn't want Shanahan fired, but Slowick sealed Shanny's fate. I got why they canned him, I really do. That 2008 defense was an abomination. Calvin Lowry? Nate Webster? Marquand Manual? Gack. That Shanny took that team to 8-8, with that dogturd of a defense, and seven RB's KO'd, was in its own way kind of impressive. By the time we played carolina and San Diego I thought we had done all we could. The Buffalo loss was much worse, and inexcusable, but we didn't have the hosses at that point to beat good teams. Our offense stopped scoring as our RB situation deteriorated, and our defense never gave us either field position or cheap points via turnover. Shanny's unwillingness to part with Slowick is inexplicable, barring Slowick having embarrassing nekkid photos of Shanahan or something.

The reason I rate 09 worse is that we lost to Oakland and KC to get aced out of the playoffs. Oakland and KC. You do not lose to teams like that when the season is on the line, you simply don't. And while the injuries of 08 shouldn't be used as a total excuse, they were in fact worse than anything we faced in 09. I've never heard of a team getting as worked over at one position as we did at RB, yet every week we reloaded and came back with another FNG - P.J. Pope, Hillis, whomever. And even there Tatum Bell - straight from the cell phone kiosk at the mall - put anything we saw from Knowshon Moreno to shame in the last couple of weeks.

We were dead men walking by the end of '08. Playoffs? We weren't in any position to be playing in them

I agree with you Dread. Completely. And to make one point to your post. The defense let the team down in both the Oakland and KC game. The defense let JaFatty come in and win the game off the bench, and KC ran all over the defense.