Does Denver have/need a Workhorse RB?

[r8rh8r]

I'm sure many of you recall my recent article (http://www.rockymountainfever.net/2008/04/signalizing-selvin-youngs-success.html) on the serviceability of Selvin Young as a starter. In it, I provided statistical support for the following:

1. Denver's power success rate, stuff rate, and success %, were among the worst in the NFL last season.
2. 10+ yard runs constituted 23% of our running plays last season.

What does this mean? Basically, Young and Henry mixed in long runs with downs getting stuffed at the line. In short yardage, we were helpless in the running game despite having a statistically high-ranked rushing offense.

To follow up, I have assembled the following food for thought:
http://rockymountainfever.net/RunMetrics.jpg

In this chart, you can see that Denver's record is strongly correlated with our ability to run the ball 500+ times. When we do this, our red zone rank is typically (2004 being a huge exception) better, we have more first downs, and we have a better record.

There's no doubt that many of you will comment on our deficiencies along the offensive line. There's no question that we have many needs in that area, particularly at right tackle and guard; however, I'd like to do a little math with you. A player like Tatum Bell or Selvin Young are guys who in their best seasons are likely to give you 175 carries. A fullback might see 30-50 carries in a season. Thus, you can argue that to be a 500-carry offense, you've got to have a workhorse back who can carry the rock 300+ times.

In my most recent article (http://www.rockymountainfever.net/2008/04/best-value-draft-picks-workhorse-back.html), I note that of the 20 backs to amass 300+ carries since 2004, only three weighed 210 pounds or less. The average and median for the group was 221 pounds.

Given these facts, I assembled my 'best-value' picks at running back in next week's draft. The list has Mendenhall at number one followed by some surprising names. I'd love your feedback if you choose to read the article.

In this thread, I'd like to hear the following:

1. Is there a 300-carry back on our roster?
2. In the Jay Cutler era, is Denver a team that should run the ball 55% of the time?
3. Who do you like to fill a 'workhorse' back role in this year's draft?

Thanks!

[Ziggy]

In this thread, I'd like to hear the following:

1. Is there a 300-carry back on our roster?
2. In the Jay Cutler era, is Denver a team that should run the ball 55% of the time?
3. Who do you like to fill a 'workhorse' back role in this year's draft?

Thanks!

1. Yes- Travis Henry if he can stay healthy.
2. Yes- I'm old school, so I beleive that the best offense includes a dominant running game.
3. Yes- But not with the 12th pick

[shank]

1. Is there a 300-carry back on our roster?
2. In the Jay Cutler era, is Denver a team that should run the ball 55% of the time?
3. Who do you like to fill a 'workhorse' back role in this year's draft?

Thanks!

1. i agree that henry can do it if he can manage to stay healthy, i just don't know if he can at this point. seems like he may be finding his way into mike's doghouse as well, based on some of this offseason's comments. i still think he deserves his fair shake at the job though.

2. i still think we should. denver is a running team, and always should be. a dominant running game will only help cutler in establishing himself as one of the league's best, and will open up a lot of options in the passing game.

3. i like stewart, omon, forte, or choice at their respective draft positions, and in that order to fill a RB spot. if we go OL high, then i think we can afford to get one of the later round backs, as it's what we've done for a long time successfully. if we choose to go stewart (or mendenhall) early and address OL later, then i think we'll still see and upgraded running game, i think it all balances out because our system has historically gotten very good production from both late round RBs AND late round O-lineman. either way, i'm happy, i just think both need to be addressed next week. (along with DT and a couple of legs)

[NameUsedBefore]

1. Is there a 300-carry back on our roster? - Maybe Travis Henry. "Maybe".
2. In the Jay Cutler era, is Denver a team that should run the ball 55% of the time? - Do what wins. If passing wins games you pass, if running wins you run.
3. Who do you like to fill a 'workhorse' back role in this year's draft? - No one in the 1st round, at least. After that I dunno.

I mean how long do workhorse backs last in the league?

IMO, not as long as a 12th-pick would warrant especially when compared to the longevity of an offensive lineman or a multitude of other positions we need fixing.

[Scarface]

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff302/ScarfaceBroncos2007/NFL%20Draft%2008/RB/09000d5d807a27f7_gallery_600.jpg

[Brand]

That boy sure does look ripped in that photo.....

[Ziggy]

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff302/ScarfaceBroncos2007/NFL%20Draft%2008/RB/09000d5d807a27f7_gallery_600.jpg

So what are you trying to say?:laugh:

[Drill-N-Fill]

So what are you trying to say?:laugh:

That he wants Stewart b/c Mend gets tackled easily :D

[Scarface]

For the Stewart groupies:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff302/ScarfaceBroncos2007/NFL%20Draft%2008/RB/610x.jpg

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I'd be fine with either. Let em get their feet wet under Henry until they are ready to take over or Henry gets hurt. Mendenhall was kind of a 1 year wonder, but excelled vs some stout defenses. As bad as Illini got rolled by USC, they had a very hard time w/ him. Given the NFL talent they have on defense, that's damn impressive.

Stewart has been a massive stud since high school. Had he played for Tennessee, Penn State, Ohio State, etc he'd be a top 5-10 pick. But he played in a spread O and that hurt him at least a little bit.

[Bronco9798]

You don't need a workhorse to win anything. You need balance, few injuries, quality depth, and a little luck along the way.

[TXBRONC]

If Stewart or Mendenhall are available and they are of better value than any offensive line at 12th pick I think it would be great if we took either of them. My first preference is for an offensive lineman but I would be ok with drafting Stewart or Mendenhall.

[Bronco9798]

If Stewart or Mendenhall are available and they are of better value than any offensive line at 12th pick I think it would be great if we took either of them. My first preference is for an offensive lineman but I would ok with drafting Stewart or Mendenhall.

So would I. I'd take LT or RB with #12 and be happy. I'd even be happy with trading back.

[TXBRONC]

So would I. I'd take LT or RB with #12 and be happy. I'd even be happy with trading back.

Same here, if we trade back that wont bother me. However, I think Denver is going to have a hard time trade back if that is what they want to do.

[Bronco9798]

I think if Mendenhall is there at #12 Shanny jumps all over him. I'll almost guarantee it, just a hunch that Shanny won't pass on him if he is available. Then we'll go best available tackle in round #2. After that, who knows. It's tough figuring Shanny out come draft day. Sometimes you just never know what he is thinking.

[r8rh8r]

The only guy I can really make an argument for drafting at #12 is Clady. His skillset is a distinctive fit for the zone blocking scheme. Clady's Wonderlic scores and his head-scratching interviews leave me less-than-enamored with him. Of all the RB's waved past in the draft since Portis left town, there has arguably never been a guy even close to as good a fit for Shanahan's system as Mendenhall. I think it would be an egregious error on Denver's part to let Detroit or Houston move up to take him or to simply pass on him. Something tells me Shanahan won't let it happen.

The real danger is that Detroit or Houston manage to trade up with Buffalo to grab him. Buffalo could probably trade with either and still walk away with the top receiver in the draft. If Rivers somehow makes it past New England and New Orleans, Buffalo probably has their pick. Otherwise, its gonna be hard to keep pole position over the circling sharks.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Rivers is the last player Buffalo would have any interest in. They have 4 quality LBs.

[tubby]

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q224/jribbens02/thenry.jpg

[omac]

1. Is there a 300-carry back on our roster?
2. In the Jay Cutler era, is Denver a team that should run the ball 55% of the time?
3. Who do you like to fill a 'workhorse' back role in this year's draft?

Thanks!

1. Guess that's the question ... can Travis stay healthy enough to be an every down back? Last season, I would've said yes; now, I have serious doubts about that.

2. Maybe not a question of should .... as long as Cutler doesn't have the protection that a drop back passer should have, they won't be able to throw the ball too many times anyway. If he does get that protection, then they can adjust their gameplan based on what look teams give them.

3. I'm just not too familiar with the draft prospects. More than RB though, we really need to upgrade our O-line for our offense. I wouldn't be opposed to getting a late value pick like the one you posted, Cory Boyd. Has talent, upside, and cheap.

crazy Cory Boyd run ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9W1h08tBdc

hard hit by Cory Boyd ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LiSmRgRgDM

nice cut back running by Boyd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-McBq1g2OQ

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Short or not, I think Ray Rice can be that back at a 2nd round pick.

[Scarface]

QB- Cutler
RB- Mendenhall/Young
WR-Marshall/Jackson/Stokely
TE-Scheffler/Graham

If the staff truly feels comfortable with Kuper/Harris we could end up with that offense. I'm shaking my head at how dynamic that could be. The questions is how much confidence do they have in our young o-lineman?

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cYqg9geI36aR/610x.jpg

[topscribe]

1. i agree that henry can do it if he can manage to stay healthy, i just don't know if he can at this point. seems like he may be finding his way into mike's doghouse as well, based on some of this offseason's comments. i still think he deserves his fair shake at the job though.

2. i still think we should. denver is a running team, and always should be. a dominant running game will only help cutler in establishing himself as one of the league's best, and will open up a lot of options in the passing game.

3. i like stewart, omon, forte, or choice at their respective draft positions, and in that order to fill a RB spot. if we go OL high, then i think we can afford to get one of the later round backs, as it's what we've done for a long time successfully. if we choose to go stewart (or mendenhall) early and address OL later, then i think we'll still see and upgraded running game, i think it all balances out because our system has historically gotten very good production from both late round RBs AND late round O-lineman. either way, i'm happy, i just think both need to be addressed next week. (along with DT and a couple of legs)

What offseason comments?

-----

[Nature Boy]

Does Denver have/need a Workhorse RB?

Yes, we already have one and his name is Travis Henry. We just need to work on the offensive line so Henry can have holes to run through and Cutler can have adequate pass protection to make plays.

This seems to be the hot topic on this board, OT or RB. Everyone knows even the best RB would struggle in a weak Offensive line and an average RB will look like a pro-bowler behind a great Offensive line so why is there even a discussion at all? :confused:

Oline, Oline, Oline. Don't forget, our back up center Chris Myers who stepped in when Nalen went down was shipped to Houston. Nalen will be back this year but will he be the same and how many more years does he have left?

OT, (perhaps Clady) in the 1st, then a RB in the 2nd round then back to Oline again, maybe a guard who can play center if asked to. And hopefully the Broncos will get Robertson as planned and the trenches should be that much better.

[honz]

QB- Cutler
RB- Stewart/Young
WR-Marshall/Jackson/Stokely
TE-Scheffler/Graham

If the staff truly feels comfortable with Kuper/Harris we could end up with that offense. I'm shaking my head at how dynamic that could be. The questions is how much confidence do they have in our young o-lineman?

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/1060/stewartfq6.jpg
FIXED!:D

I agree with your post otherwise.

[tubby]

I would be shocked if the Broncos took a RB in the first round.

[hamrob]

I don't believe a rookie tackle would start this year. Could happen, but our offense is somewhat complicated. Albert would natuarlly struggle out of the gate at LT, Clady is only a Junior coming out and Williams will have to learn the zone blocking system. In terms of both value and need at #12...here's how I ranks them:

Albert
Mendenhall
Clady
Williams

Those are the only four guys I could see us taking at #12. I think it's way too expensive to try and trade up. We'd have to give away our #2 and more to get Ellis...not something a team with alot of holes can afford to do (IMO).

I think we'd like to trade down and pick up a pick or two...but will there be any takers? I'd love to trade back a few slots and still get one of these four guys. Then we could also look at Otah, Stewart and Cherilus. Otah and Cherilus will be RT's but in the late teens to twenties their worth it. Stewart will need to mend...but with Henry and Young there's time.

The two guys I'd be targeting at 12 are Albert and Mendenahall...Albert is an awesome athelete than can play anywhere on the line...so if LT doesn't work out...he's an All-Pro at Gaurd. Mendenhall reminds me of Emitt Smith. In our offense...he could have a hall of fame career along side Cutler, Marshall & Sheffler!

[Stargazer]

1. Is there a 300-carry back on our roster?
2. In the Jay Cutler era, is Denver a team that should run the ball 55% of the time?
3. Who do you like to fill a 'workhorse' back role in this year's draft?

Thanks!

1. No, Henry hasn't carried 300 since 2003. And the man can't play 16 games a season(last accomplished in 2002). He's practically injured every season. He's unfortunately a stop-gap. Not the solution.
2. No, the team should be more balance. 50/50
3. Mendenhall/Stewart.

[r8rh8r]

I don't believe a rookie tackle would start this year. Could happen, but our offense is somewhat complicated. Albert would natuarlly struggle out of the gate at LT, Clady is only a Junior coming out and Williams will have to learn the zone blocking system. In terms of both value and need at #12...here's how I ranks them:

Albert
Mendenhall
Clady
Williams

Those are the only four guys I could see us taking at #12. I think it's way too expensive to try and trade up. We'd have to give away our #2 and more to get Ellis...not something a team with alot of holes can afford to do (IMO).

I think we'd like to trade down and pick up a pick or two...but will there be any takers? I'd love to trade back a few slots and still get one of these four guys. Then we could also look at Otah, Stewart and Cherilus. Otah and Cherilus will be RT's but in the late teens to twenties their worth it. Stewart will need to mend...but with Henry and Young there's time.

The two guys I'd be targeting at 12 are Albert and Mendenahall...Albert is an awesome athelete than can play anywhere on the line...so if LT doesn't work out...he's an All-Pro at Gaurd. Mendenhall reminds me of Emitt Smith. In our offense...he could have a hall of fame career along side Cutler, Marshall & Sheffler!

Cherilius is the best cure available for what ails Denver's offensive line. If he's there at #42, he's a no brainer. I wouldn't mind taking him late--as in, after pick 20. Dallas is the only team I consider to be a legitimate trade suitor after Tampa Bay at #20. It probably won't happen.

Albert I like but I'm not sure I like the idea of drafting a guard at #12. I know the guy has proclaimed himself a tackle-capable talent, but it seems like an awfully big risk. I'd rather have the sure thing in Mendenhall.

[BOSSHOGG30]

No and for the Henry lovers.......Henry has never been a work horse back... maybe if you take a look at a game here or there throughout his career, but as far as a seaon goes.....no, by far he is no where close to be a work horse back, his body won't allow it.

[Bronco9798]

I don't see why you need a "Workhorse" RB in todays NFL. A lot of teams rotate backs now more than ever. Very few RB's are durable enough to make it through 16 weeks in the NFL any more. Injuries, the passing game, and todays NFL isn't like it was years back when a true "workhorse" was used. You don't need one in my opinion. You need a guy that can stay healthy, move the chains, and catch a few balls here and there. You don't need a 30 carry a game to win. Just get you a guy you rely to produce when needed. The key to winning is balance. Balance the attack, play Defense, special teams and you'll be successful.

[r8rh8r]

Rivers is the last player Buffalo would have any interest in. They have 4 quality LBs.

They drafted Posluszny at MLB last year and they signed Kawika Mitchell. So they've got some cause for optimism. Crowell has been with them since 2003 and has been serviceable. Outside of that, they've got nothing. You could argue for undrafted DiGiorgio, but even if he doesn't suck (at 229lbs) he's not an OLB. I can't see any rational reason why Buffalo--a team with few true needs in this year's draft--would pass on Rivers because of that LB corps.

As we saw in 2006 with Donte Whitner, the Bills won't hesitate to take a top talent just because it isn't a glaring need. I don't think Buffalo is interested in spending an 11th pick on a WR, particularly not in this anemic talent pool. I doubt they'd let Ellis, Rivers, or McKelvin go past them should they be available; otherwise, they have no incentive not to trade down. My point was that Buffalo poses a tactical disadvantage to Denver because of this.

[r8rh8r]

I don't see why you need a "Workhorse" RB in todays NFL. A lot of teams rotate backs now more than ever. Very few RB's are durable enough to make it through 16 weeks in the NFL any more. Injuries, the passing game, and todays NFL isn't like it was years back when a true "workhorse" was used. You don't need one in my opinion. You need a guy that can stay healthy, move the chains, and catch a few balls here and there. You don't need a 30 carry a game to win. Just get you a guy you rely to produce when needed. The key to winning is balance. Balance the attack, play Defense, special teams and you'll be successful.

If a team runs 950+ plays and you want to be a "running" team, you need about 500 carries. If you have a pair of guys who get you 175 carries, you are still a long ways away from the finish line. Having one guy who can carry 300+ times not only makes a 500+ carry season tractable, its roster efficient. Plus, its nice to have a talent both deserving and capable of playing that kind of a role. When you carry 3 guys on your roster at RB and none of them figures to break 200 carries in a season, every one has to be (a) good and (b) healthy if you want to field a dominant rushing offense. When you have a workhorse capable of moving the chains, it takes the pressure off of everyone. 3rd-and-short becomes automatic, the playaction sells itself, defenses wear down. We don't have that guy.

[r8rh8r]

Short or not, I think Ray Rice can be that back at a 2nd round pick.

Its not his height. Maurice Jones-Drew is 5'7". Lots of guys play running back at that height. Rice's problem is that hes 199. At 5'8", its hard to believe he adds another 10-15 pounds without shaving 3/10ths of a second off that 40-time. MJD is 212 pounds. If Ray Rice breaks 210 (at an inch taller than MJD), can still run a 4.45 40-yard dash, and he learns to return kickoffs, tell him to give Shanahan a call.

MJD has never carried more than 167 times in a season either. He's a sexy change of pace back for a 522-carry team, but he's not a "workhorse."

Brian Westbrook plays at 207. 199 pounds, are you kidding me? No one that size is going to get hit head on 20 times a game and walk away from the field at the end of the season.

[MOtorboat]

Its not his height. Maurice Jones-Drew is 5'7". Lots of guys play running back at that height. Rice's problem is that hes 199. At 5'8", its hard to believe he adds another 10-15 pounds without shaving 3/10ths of a second off that 40-time. MJD is 212 pounds. If Ray Rice breaks 210 (at an inch taller than MJD), can still run a 4.45 40-yard dash, and he learns to return kickoffs, tell him to give Shanahan a call.

MJD has never carried more than 167 times in a season either. He's a sexy change of pace back for a 522-carry team, but he's not a "workhorse."

Brian Westbrook plays at 207. 199 pounds, are you kidding me? No one that size is going to get hit head on 20 times a game and walk away from the field at the end of the season.

...and Jones-Drew only had 166 attempts last season, too...

[Bronco9798]

That all sounds nice for what it is worth. There aren't a ton of workhorse RB's in the NFL like there used to be. The league is pass happy. Todays RB's are not as durable as yesterdays. The league is ever changing and you change with it or you get left behind. RB's at one time could out run defenses. Not the case any more. Again, you have to have balance. You need a workhorse in the 4th quarter to protect the lead. You need to be balanced in the 3 quarters to score points and establish leads. Your infatuation with numbers and stats are nice, but not much of a reality or necessity more.

Just saying, thats my opinion.

[r8rh8r]

Here are the top 25 yardage backs in NFL history. Unless otherwise noted, each back was the first RB taken in their respective draft class:

Emmitt Smith
Walter Payton
Barry Sanders
Curtis Martin (2nd round)
Jerome Bettis
Eric Dickerson
Tony Dorsett (#2 pick, 2nd RB taken)
Jim Brown (N/A)
Marcus Allen (#10 pick, 3rd RB taken)
Marshall Faulk
Franco Harris
Thurman Thomas (2nd round)
Edgerrin James
John Riggins
Corey Dillon (2nd round)
O.J. Simpson
Fred Taylor (9th pick, 2nd taken)
Ricky Waters (2nd round)
Ladanian Tomlinson
Tiki Barber (2nd round)
Eddie George (#14 pick, 3rd taken)
Ottis Anderson
Warrick Dunn
Joe Perry (N/A)
Earl Campbell

[Nomad]

Maybe compliment Henry/Young with a solid fullback like Hillis(ARK).

[lex]

That all sounds nice for what it is worth. There aren't a ton of workhorse RB's in the NFL like there used to be. The league is pass happy. Todays RB's are not as durable as yesterdays. The league is ever changing and you change with it or you get left behind. RB's at one time could out run defenses. Not the case any more. Again, you have to have balance. You need a workhorse in the 4th quarter to protect the lead. You need to be balanced in the 3 quarters to score points and establish leads. Your infatuation with numbers and stats are nice, but not much of a reality or necessity more.

Just saying, thats my opinion.

Sometimes you have to step back and look at what youre saying. With the kind of dearth at QB that exists, its a greater advantage to have a passer. Whereas, if you look back at the 90s where it was a virtual who's who of great QBs, and then the RBs start to make the difference. What youve seen in the 90s is a dearth of elite QBs and rules changes that greatly benefit the QBs. Before Dallas won the SB with Emmitt Smith as the leading rusher, there was no team who had won a SB with the leagues leading rusher on their team...and then Denver also won a SB with Terrell leading the league in rushing...so its only happened twice but one of those teams was us. We still have the same coach with the same acumen. We're one of the teams who has made won with this formula. Just because others win differently, doesnt mean we have to follow suit. Basically, there is a truism that exists which says "know what youre good at and be the best at it you can". If we have a running game that can run the ball in the playoffs, youd see us contend for SBs again.

[MOtorboat]

Here are the top 25 yardage backs in NFL history. Unless otherwise noted, each back was the first RB taken in their respective draft class:

Emmitt Smith
Walter Payton
Barry Sanders
Curtis Martin (2nd round)
Jerome Bettis
Eric Dickerson
Tony Dorsett (#2 pick, 2nd RB taken)
Jim Brown (N/A)
Marcus Allen (#10 pick, 3rd RB taken)
Marshall Faulk
Franco Harris
Thurman Thomas (2nd round)
Edgerrin James
John Riggins
Corey Dillon (2nd round)
O.J. Simpson
Fred Taylor (9th pick, 2nd taken)
Ricky Waters (2nd round)
Ladanian Tomlinson
Tiki Barber (2nd round)
Eddie George (#14 pick, 3rd taken)
Ottis Anderson
Warrick Dunn
Joe Perry (N/A)
Earl Campbell

That's nice, but McFadden is going before we can draft, so we're getting the second RB.

[BOSSHOGG30]

That's nice, but McFadden is going before we can draft, so we're getting the second RB.

2nd or 3rd best back in this class is better than the 3rd, 4th, or 5th best offensive lineman with the 12th overall pick.

[LRtagger]

1. Is there a 300-carry back on our roster?
2. In the Jay Cutler era, is Denver a team that should run the ball 55% of the time?
3. Who do you like to fill a 'workhorse' back role in this year's draft?


1. This is a yes or no question. There is no "Yes IF..." or "Yes, BUT...". The correct answer is NO, we do not. What makes everyone think Henry is capable of 300+ carries for 1500 yards? He's not. He hasn't been that guy for 5-6 years.

2. Yes. Not being able to control the clock in the second half is what cost us a couple games last year. Being able to pound the ball in short yardage situations and keeping our defense off the field is what can turn this team from average into good/great.

3. Stewart is my first choice. Mendenhall 2nd.

[LRtagger]

2nd or 3rd best back in this class is better than the 3rd, 4th, or 5th best offensive lineman with the 12th overall pick.

Not only that, but many consider Stewart and Mendenhall both better than McFadden.

[red98]

MJD has never carried more than 167 times in a season either. He's a sexy change of pace back for a 522-carry team, but he's not a "workhorse."

MJD never carried more than 186 time in college either. Ray Rice carried the ball 380 times in 2007, and 300+ times in 2006. He has never missed a game.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Not only that, but many consider Stewart and Mendenhall both better than McFadden.

I agree, but just like many of us consider Stewart and Mendenhall better or more complete backs over McFadden, you will have the same people say that about offensive lineman... like me for example... I think Chris Williams and Jeff Otah are best left tackle in the draft, even over Jake Long and Ryan Clady, but I also don't think that means a whole lot because I think the OT talent is pretty week considering 1st round value and all.

[r8rh8r]

Sometimes you have to step back and look at what youre saying. With the kind of dearth at QB that exists, its a greater advantage to have a passer. Whereas, if you look back at the 90s where it was a virtual who's who of great QBs, and then the RBs start to make the difference. What youve seen in the 90s is a dearth of elite QBs and rules changes that greatly benefit the QBs. Before Dallas won the SB with Emmitt Smith as the leading rusher, there was no team who had won a SB with the leagues leading rusher on their team...and then Denver also won a SB with Terrell leading the league in rushing...so its only happened twice but one of those teams was us. We still have the same coach with the same acumen. We're one of the teams who has made won with this formula. Just because others win differently, doesnt mean we have to follow suit. Basically, there is a truism that exists which says "know what youre good at and be the best at it you can". If we have a running game that can run the ball in the playoffs, youd see us contend for SBs again.

One team that didn't suffer during that dearth of great QB's was Denver. Many of you may recall that Plummer broke most of Elway's single-season franchise records in 2004 with 4000+ yards passing and 28 touchdowns. Well, the reason Elway never had those sexy statistics is that Denver was first-and-foremost a running team. Even with a great QB, it pays to run the ball well.

Jamal Lewis lead the league in rushing for the SB champion Raiders. Marshall Faulk broke the single-season scrimmage yards record the year that the Rams won it. Franco Harris, Emmitt Smith, Jerome Bettis, John Riggins, Ricky Watters, Ottis Anderson, and Marcus Allen all won Super Bowls (some of them won multiple Super Bowls). There's no shortage of Super Bowl rings on this list. If you want to get into Super Bowl appearances the list gets even longer.

I agree with you. Denver is a running team. Our passing game is deadly when its setup by a rushing attack that wears down defenses and controls the clock.

[BOSSHOGG30]

One team that didn't suffer during that dearth of great QB's was Denver. Many of you may recall that Plummer broke most of Elway's single-season franchise records in 2004 with 4000+ yards passing and 28 touchdowns. Well, the reason Elway never had those sexy statistics is that Denver was first-and-foremost a running team. Even with a great QB, it pays to run the ball well.

Jamal Lewis lead the league in rushing for the SB champion Raiders. Marshall Faulk broke the single-season scrimmage yards record the year that the Rams won it. Franco Harris, Emmitt Smith, Jerome Bettis, John Riggins, Ricky Watters, Ottis Anderson, and Marcus Allen all won Super Bowls (some of them won multiple Super Bowls). There's no shortage of Super Bowl rings on this list. If you want to get into Super Bowl appearances the list gets even longer.

I agree with you. Denver is a running team. Our passing game is deadly when its setup by a rushing attack that wears down defenses and controls the clock.

Jamal Lewis played for the Raiders?

[r8rh8r]

MJD never carried more than 186 time in college either. Ray Rice carried the ball 380 times in 2007, and 300+ times in 2006. He has never missed a game.

199 pounds. 199....199...199. I don't buy that Ray Rice will be a featured NFL back any more than I buy DeSean Jackson will be a top-shelf WR at 170 pounds. Dante Hall he may be, but he's not gonna catch 80 balls at that weight.

[r8rh8r]

Jamal Lewis played for the Raiders?

RAVENS!!:lol:

[r8rh8r]

Mendenhall is such a superb fit for our system that I think he makes more sense for Denver than McFadden. He knows our system, he'll immediately boost our blitz protection, he'll give us some punch at the line. He's everything we need at the position.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I agree to some degree that our offensive line is starting to head south, as far as talent is concerned, and Denver needs to do address this issue by taking a couple guys in this years draft, but I do not think that we need to panic and just draft a guy in the 1st round. This years offensive line talent is pretty deep. One of the deepiest in a long time. We could add two or three quality names from the 2nd round on and start this heading south to heading north fairly easy. Guys like Zuttah and McMackin can be had in the 4th round and would be instant depth as well as future considerations as starters in the NFL.

[r8rh8r]

Even guys like Dorsey Levens had 1800+ total yards for their SB champions, despite not leading the league in rushing yards. There are almost no Super Bowl champions in league history that didn't boast a top rushing attack.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Even guys like Dorsey Levens had 1800+ total yards for their SB champions, despite not leading the league in rushing yards. There are almost no Super Bowl champions in league history that didn't boast a top rushing attack.

r8rh9r, you confuse me at times... I can't tell if you are leaning for an O-lineman or a running back. One post supports offensive line talent, the other running back.

You went from Mendenhall to the Packers success which was mainly do to an awesome o-line and a guy named Farve.

[red98]

199 pounds. 199....199...199. I don't buy that Ray Rice will be a featured NFL back any more than I buy DeSean Jackson will be a top-shelf WR at 170 pounds. Dante Hall he may be, but he's not gonna catch 80 balls at that weight.

Tiki Barber, 204lbs carried 300+ times each of his last 3 yrs.

[topscribe]

One team that didn't suffer during that dearth of great QB's was Denver. Many of you may recall that Plummer broke most of Elway's single-season franchise records in 2004 with 4000+ yards passing and 28 touchdowns. Well, the reason Elway never had those sexy statistics is that Denver was first-and-foremost a running team. Even with a great QB, it pays to run the ball well.

Jamal Lewis lead the league in rushing for the SB champion Raiders. Marshall Faulk broke the single-season scrimmage yards record the year that the Rams won it. Franco Harris, Emmitt Smith, Jerome Bettis, John Riggins, Ricky Watters, Ottis Anderson, and Marcus Allen all won Super Bowls (some of them won multiple Super Bowls). There's no shortage of Super Bowl rings on this list. If you want to get into Super Bowl appearances the list gets even longer.

I agree with you. Denver is a running team. Our passing game is deadly when its setup by a rushing attack that wears down defenses and controls the clock.

Yes, every Super Bowl team had a running back. They had a lot of other
players, too. For instance, every Super Bowl had a QB, WR, TE, OG, OT,
LB, DB, etc., etc. And virtually every player on every Super Bowl team was
good at what he did.

Nonetheless, I can name superb RBs who never tasted the SB. The likes of
Barry Sanders, O.J. Simpson, Leroy Kelly, Tiki Barber, and Floyd Little come
to mind.

The most salient difference I have observed among Super Bowl teams is
their offensive and defensive lines. It's amazing how good skill players
become behind strong lines . . .

-----

[lex]

Even guys like Dorsey Levens had 1800+ total yards for their SB champions, despite not leading the league in rushing yards. There are almost no Super Bowl champions in league history that didn't boast a top rushing attack.

Youre absolutely right but the conversation was about what kind of a difference a running back makes. Ive pointed out several times that if you look at SBs, the winning team, is more often who was best at running the ball. A team who can run the ball againts upper echelon defenses will always have a place in football. If you can dominate the game on the ground, you are dictating terms. You are controlling the clock. This is underscored by a truism: "whenever you pass, three things can happen and two of them are bad." This doesnt mean a passing team can beat a good running team but more often than not its the running team. Plus, at the upper level, both teams typically have a solid QB.

[r8rh8r]

Tiki Barber, 204lbs carried 300+ times each of his last 3 yrs.

Tiki is also 5'10".

The article that started this thread also notes that Curtis Martin was 210 lbs and Willie Parker was 207. The other 37 guys who've done it since 2004 were all heavier than that. The exception doesn't disprove the rule...

[red98]

The exception doesn't disprove the rule...

True, I just think RR might be the next exception.

[r8rh8r]

r8rh9r, you confuse me at times... I can't tell if you are leaning for an O-lineman or a running back. One post supports offensive line talent, the other running back.

You went from Mendenhall to the Packers success which was mainly do to an awesome o-line and a guy named Farve.

I've been an advocate of Denver getting better in both areas. The article is highlighting the need to improve the rushing offense and listing some backs--ranging from round 1 to round 7--that could be difference makers. Personally, I think we should grab Mendenhall, but I don't think thats the only way to get the job done. I think we could take Derrick Harvey or Keith Rivers with our top pick and still add talent to O-Line, RB, and DT. All are areas of need.

I think we are young and deep at LT. I'd like to add depth to G/C/RT. Albert is the only guy who fits this need at #12 and he'd probably take at least a year to learn our system. I think that's an ill-advised pick.

[tubby]

Travis Henry's 2nd year in Buffalo – 325 carries – 1438 yards – 13 TD.

Travis Henry's 2nd year in Tennessee – 270 carries – 1211 yards – 7 TD.

I expect something very similar from the Hoss in his 2nd year in Denver. Around 1350 yards and 15 TD.

Big Hoss #20 :salute:

[lex]

Yes, every Super Bowl team had a running back. They had a lot of other
players, too. For instance, every Super Bowl had a QB, WR, TE, OG, OT,
LB, DB, etc., etc. And virtually every player on every Super Bowl team was
good at what he did.

Nonetheless, I can name superb RBs who never tasted the SB. The likes of
Barry Sanders, O.J. Simpson, Thurman Thomas, Leroy Kelly, Tiki Barber, and
Floyd Little come to mind.

The most salient difference I have observed among Super Bowl teams is
their offensive and defensive lines. It's amazing how good skill players
become behind strong lines . . .

-----

I dont think anyone is saying that the offensive line and defensive line is not important.

Ill be honest, I think when we lost to Indy in the playoffs the first time, I think we over reacted. I think for 2 or 3 years after that we were too preoccupied with loading up on DBs as a reaction to that loss. But we were actually equipped to win that game. That game was a matter of who got out of the blocks first, our running game or their passing game...and it was their passing game that did so. So after that, we absolutely and completely over reacted to that loss by obsessing over CBs. And we traded for Champ. While Champ is great, our biggest problem was not the quality of our best CB as much as it was the quality of our worst CBs. And in the pursuit of fixing that, we neglected and sacrificed other areas...and this is now staring us in the face.

[Lonestar]

MJD never carried more than 186 time in college either. Ray Rice carried the ball 380 times in 2007, and 300+ times in 2006. He has never missed a game.


Sounds like a lot of mileage on that kid..

[r8rh8r]

True, I just think RR might be the next exception.

You could be right on this, but I tend to play the percentages.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Ray Rice will not be a work horse in the NFL... won't happen. He is a good change of pace back just like Jones Drew and Reggie Bush.

[Lonestar]

Tiki is also 5'10".

The article that started this thread also notes that Curtis Martin was 210 lbs and Willie Parker was 207. The other 37 guys who've done it since 2004 were all heavier than that. The exception doesn't disprove the rule...


AND these were a it different times with the defenses getting larger and faster all the time.. Plus take a quick look at the size and design of their OLINE..

Most RB's under 215 are not going to have long careers unless they have a stellar OLINE in front of them..

[red98]

Sounds like a lot of mileage on that kid..

True. Hasn't slowed him down yet though.

[r8rh8r]

Travis Henry's 2nd year in Buffalo – 325 carries – 1438 yards – 13 TD.

Travis Henry's 2nd year in Tennessee – 270 carries – 1211 yards – 7 TD.

I expect something very similar from the Hoss in his 2nd year in Denver. Around 1350 yards and 15 TD.

Big Hoss #20 :salute:

Henry will be 30 in October and he averages less than 12 games per year for the last 4 years. He just doesn't have enough tread left on his tires to be that kind of player. If Henry gives us 150 quality carries next year I'll be happy. What if the worst-case-scenario happens and Henry gives us 90 carries? Selvin Young is good for maybe 175. Who's gonna carry the rock? Is Mike Bell good for 250 carries? Ya right. What about in 2009? Should Denver just go fishing in round 5 and hope they catch a franchise back? The odds are against that. We need to reload now.

[red98]

You could be right on this, but I tend to play the percentages.

Nothing wrong with that. One thing is for sure Denver's workhorse back is not on the roster yet.

[Lonestar]

I dont think anyone is saying that the offensive line and defensive line is not important.

Ill be honest, I think when we lost to Indy in the playoffs the first time, I think we over reacted. I think for 2 or 3 years after that we were too preoccupied with loading up on DBs as a reaction to that loss. But we were actually equipped to win that game. That game was a matter of who got out of the blocks first, our running game or their passing game...and it was their passing game that did so. So after that, we absolutely and completely over reacted to that loss by obsessing over CBs. And we traded for Champ. While Champ is great, our biggest problem was not the quality of our best CB as much as it was the quality of our worst CBs. And in the pursuit of fixing that, we neglected and sacrificed other areas...and this is now staring us in the face.


the real problem was no pressure on the QB.. and frankly still is.. CB are great to have but when they are busy playing run support first and then have to cover all day, that is a recipe for failure..

Give me quality DL guys and even average CB's can become better, because they are not being pulled in three directions at once..

[r8rh8r]

Maybe compliment Henry/Young with a solid fullback like Hillis(ARK).

I looked at all the fullbacks available in this year's draft and considered them as candidates for my 'best-value' list. None of them jumped out at me as guys who figured to be 300-carry athletes. Its hard to justify drafting a FB before round 5 mostly because Denver utilizes a lot of one-back sets. If we didn't have Graham, I might be in favor of an H-back type player, but we just don't need the talent for the foreseeable future.

[tubby]

Ray Rice will not be a work horse in the NFL... won't happen. He is a good change of pace back just like Jones Drew and Reggie Bush.

Yeah. He's no Tony Hunt that's for sure.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Yeah. He's no Tony Hunt that's for sure.


You sorry SOB! I hope Blythe gets drafted by the Raiders:D;)

Tony Hunt would help the Broncos.....we should trade for him;)

[Lonestar]

True. Hasn't slowed him down yet though.

but he is also not in the NFL.. where everyone on defense is better than the one or possibly two elite players on each team in college..

[BOSSHOGG30]

Tony Hunt is only 22 years old.... Wonder if the Eagles would be willing to part with him. I'll tell Shanahan to get that #12 overall ready for a possible trade to Philly.

[tubby]

Tony Hunt is only 22 years old.... Wonder if the Eagles would be willing to part with him. I'll tell Shanahan to get that #12 overall ready for a possible trade to Philly.

Oh boy. Here we go. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned him.......:lol:

[r8rh8r]

the real problem was no pressure on the QB.. and frankly still is.. CB are great to have but when they are busy playing run support first and then have to cover all day, that is a recipe for failure..

Give me quality DL guys and even average CB's can become better, because they are not being pulled in three directions at once..

Almost every team in the league is statistically strong in one of the following categories:

Run Defense
Pass Rush
Pass Coverage

Usually a team will look good in one area because they are actually terrible in another that is constantly being exploited.

Good teams will do two of these things well. Great teams have all three.

The purpose of the Cover 2 is to masquerade weakness in the secondary with a combination of zone coverage and a great pass rush. Before bringing Champ to town, Denver was fantastic against the run but didn't have the pass rush to make the Cover 2 work. Now we're married to playing a lot of man-to-man because of the cornerback talent we have and have desperately scrambled to get a pass rush in front of these guys while we've got them. In the process, S/MLB/DT have all been depleted and we can't stop the run.

Its tough to strike the right balance. Guys like Dick Jauron, Gregg Williams, and Monte Kiffin have always been able to balance all three with sub-elite talent. Denver's always done it with talent. No wonder Shanahan has a defensive bias in the first round...

Derrick Harvey, anyone?

[BOSSHOGG30]

Oh boy. Here we go. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned him.......:lol:

We could probably send the Eagles a 4th rounder for him and that would give us the big back that Denver needs, who exceled in Penn States ZBS. Philly isn't using him right. Hunt is a back that wears down defenses and gets stronger as the game goes on. He would compliment Selvin Young very well.

[BOSSHOGG30]

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee253/Dawkins_20_03/TonyHunt.jpg

[turftoad]

We could probably send the Eagles a 4th rounder for him and that would give us the big back that Denver needs, who exceled in Penn States ZBS. Philly isn't using him right. Hunt is a back that wears down defenses and gets stronger as the game goes on. He would compliment Selvin Young very well.

Me thinks that if Shanny wanted Hunt he would have drafted him.

[LRtagger]

Travis Henry's 2nd year in Buffalo – 325 carries – 1438 yards – 13 TD.

Travis Henry's 2nd year in Tennessee – 270 carries – 1211 yards – 7 TD.

I expect something very similar from the Hoss in his 2nd year in Denver. Around 1350 yards and 15 TD.

Big Hoss #20 :salute:


Henry was 22 years old his second year in Buffalo. He will be 30 this year. Not to mention his stats that year were padded against terrible teams. Against better teams he wasn't very good. Also, Buffalo went 8-8 that year and Henry had 11 fumbles (8 lost). 8 fumbles lost almost negates anything positive he did that year.

In his 7 year career, Henry has only played a full season ONCE and that was that second year in Buffalo. I think the stats you mention above are less contengiant on his 2nd season with a team and more so on the fact that he managed to stay healthy.

If we are going to speculate based on his previous stats, it would be more probable that Henry will get hurt this year than it would be him having 300 carries for 1300 yards and 15 TDs (something he has never done in his career).

And even if he does stay healthy and have a good year, then what? He will be even older and more fragile in 2009 and we will be having to think about drafting a RB in round one again. I would rather pick up one of the studs this year and concentrate on LB and Safety next year with our top picks since that is where all the studs will be in the 09 draft.

[r8rh8r]

http://media.2theadvocate.com/images/LSU+101607.jpg

Cory Boyd movin' the pile!

[LRtagger]

Me thinks that if Shanny wanted Hunt he would have drafted him.

He didnt draft Henry :noidea:

[turftoad]

He didnt draft Henry :noidea:

Very true. However, Hunt has done nothing to be worth anything. :confused:

[r8rh8r]

Very true. However, Hunt has done nothing to be worth anything. :confused:

Philly also passes 65% of the time (that's not hyperbole) and gives 225 carries to Westbrook. It's hard to do much in that system with Westbrook in town.

[MOtorboat]

We could probably send the Eagles a 4th rounder for him and that would give us the big back that Denver needs, who exceled in Penn States ZBS. Philly isn't using him right. Hunt is a back that wears down defenses and gets stronger as the game goes on. He would compliment Selvin Young very well.

Oh boy...:rolleyes:


Philly also passes 65% of the time (that's not hyperbole) and gives 225 carries to Westbrook. It's hard to do much in that system with Westbrook in town.

I agree...but its even more than that. Westbrook had 278 carries and 90 receptions last year, 240 and 77 the year before.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Very true. However, Hunt has done nothing to be worth anything. :confused:

Ok, swap them Mike Bell and a 5th or 6th

[LRtagger]

Very true. However, Hunt has done nothing to be worth anything. :confused:

I agree. Not saying Hunt is the answer at all...just implying that Henry isnt.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I sent an email to the Broncos to trade Henry straight up for Tony Hunt... don't worry guys we should be good now.

[Drill-N-Fill]

Can we trade Marshall for another freak favorite, Matt Jones? :tsk:

[MOtorboat]

Can we trade Marshall for another freak favorite, Matt Jones? :tsk:

:eek:

[Stargazer]

Bring in a stud RB and get it over with. See avy!

[TXBRONC]

We could probably send the Eagles a 4th rounder for him and that would give us the big back that Denver needs, who exceled in Penn States ZBS. Philly isn't using him right. Hunt is a back that wears down defenses and gets stronger as the game goes on. He would compliment Selvin Young very well.


I would rather draft a running back.

[Scarface]

FIXED!:D

I agree with your post otherwise.

That wouldn't exactly upset me. :beer:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff302/ScarfaceBroncos2007/NFL%20Draft%2008/RB/72511023.jpg

[r8rh8r]

Oh boy...:rolleyes:



I agree...but its even more than that. Westbrook had 278 carries and 90 receptions last year, 240 and 77 the year before.

The prior 3 years as the starter he failed to break 177 carries. I wouldn't expect his carries to keep increasing.

[WARHORSE]

That all sounds nice for what it is worth. There aren't a ton of workhorse RB's in the NFL like there used to be. The league is pass happy. Todays RB's are not as durable as yesterdays. The league is ever changing and you change with it or you get left behind. RB's at one time could out run defenses. Not the case any more. Again, you have to have balance. You need a workhorse in the 4th quarter to protect the lead. You need to be balanced in the 3 quarters to score points and establish leads. Your infatuation with numbers and stats are nice, but not much of a reality or necessity more.

Just saying, thats my opinion.





Balance, and the ability to put the game away in the fourth.

Ahhhh.....someone who knows Broncos football.:beer:


All you youngsters pay attention now............

[WARHORSE]

Tony Hunt can stay in Philly if you ask me. I dont want him holding the water jug in Denver.

[TXBRONC]

The prior 3 years as the starter he failed to break 177 carries. I wouldn't expect his carries to keep increasing.

The prior three years Westbrook was used in a runningback by committee style running attack.

[r8rh8r]

The prior three years Westbrook was used in a runningback by committee style running attack.

Westbrook has been the feature back since 2004. He missed 3.5 games in 2004 and 4.5 games in 2005; that's why his carries were low. He split touches with Duce Staley in 2003.

Westbrook also has chronic knee swelling. He gets his knee drained a couple times a season. The tried to limit his touches in 2006 and he held up pretty well. He barked for more touches last season and held up pretty well. He missed only one game (not including the last game of the season). There was some rumbling about his knee later in the season but he hung tough.

Westbrook probably has 2 good years left in him and he know it. Westbrook's toughness and ability to get that many touches is remarkable given his size. Of course, he doesn't get them those hard carries. He's never had more than 7 rushing TD's so a back like that isn't going to improve your red zone %.

[Superchop 7]

The number one thing we need at running back is speed.

Number 2 is a huge RB for red zone carries (F=MA) someone around 5-9 (low center of gravity) and 265 lbs that can squat a truck. (Red zone is about brute force, not speed)

[WARHORSE]

The number one thing we need at running back is speed.

Number 2 is a huge RB for red zone carries (F=MA) someone around 5-9 (low center of gravity) and 265 lbs that can squat a truck. (Red zone is about brute force, not speed)


Speed? Well that would be Darren.

Redzone? He can jump over the pile.

That helps since we cant win the muscle battle at the goaline.

Not that Im sayin we'll draft him.........:coffee:

[Nature Boy]

The number one thing we need at running back is speed.

Number 2 is a huge RB for red zone carries (F=MA) someone around 5-9 (low center of gravity) and 265 lbs that can squat a truck. (Red zone is about brute force, not speed)

NO, #1 thing we need is a better O-Line than the last 2 years. We have Travis Henry already. There are also a number of good backs like Jamaal Charles that can be had outside the 1st round.

[TXBRONC]

Westbrook has been the feature back since 2004. He missed 3.5 games in 2004 and 4.5 games in 2005; that's why his carries were low. He split touches with Duce Staley in 2003.

Westbrook also has chronic knee swelling. He gets his knee drained a couple times a season. The tried to limit his touches in 2006 and he held up pretty well. He barked for more touches last season and held up pretty well. He missed only one game (not including the last game of the season). There was some rumbling about his knee later in the season but he hung tough.

Westbrook probably has 2 good years left in him and he know it. Westbrook's toughness and ability to get that many touches is remarkable given his size. Of course, he doesn't get them those hard carries. He's never had more than 7 rushing TD's so a back like that isn't going to improve your red zone %.

No he was starting but the Eagles were not using him as feature back.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Now that we have Robertson...gimme Jerod Mayo (or Kenny Phillips) and Ray Rice (or Forte).

[TXBRONC]

Now that we have Robertson...gimme Jerod Mayo (or Kenny Phillips) and Ray Rice (or Forte).

Hold the Mayo and give me Albert. :D

[Tned]

1. Is there a 300-carry back on our roster?
2. In the Jay Cutler era, is Denver a team that should run the ball 55% of the time?
3. Who do you like to fill a 'workhorse' back role in this year's draft?



1. Maybe Henry, not Young.
2. Yes. Elways greatest success was when TD was a work horse. Cutler, and the team, would benefit from having a workhorse back to really wrack up yards in the second half and take pressure off the QB.
3. Not a big NCCA or big board guy, but I have no doubt Mcfadden could be the guy, as well as probably medenhall and Stewart.

[r8rh8r]

No he was starting but the Eagles were not using him as feature back.

14 carries and 5 catches per game is a featured back in an offense that passes the ball 65% of the time.

[TXBRONC]

14 carries and 5 catches per game is a featured back in an offense that passes the ball 65% of the time.

Featured back mean that you're rushing the ball more than 14 times in a game. Early on they relied more his receiving ability now over the past two seasons he carried the ball nearly 300 times. That's what you would call a featured back.