kyle orton,presser after todays workouts

[T.K.O.]

there is a new vid up on the official website.its about 15 minutes with orton answering questions about rfa's and workouts.
had some great things to say about getting royal more involved and about qb competition etc...
he is wearing an nflpa hat ,but still sportin' a broncos logo on his shirt...seems to be playing mediator between the union and the players (just a bit)
i like his attitude and he sounds confident the team's offense will be improved.and please none of the tired ol' "what else is he gonna say":D

[claymore]

:plane:

[underrated29]

:hidebehindcouch:
feed me..?

[claymore]

http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/ortonjack.gif

[Rick]

I am not too into the bashing of the players.....but thats actually kinda funny :)

[SOCALORADO.]

there is a new vid up on the official website.its about 15 minutes with orton answering questions about rfa's and workouts.
had some great things to say about getting royal more involved and about qb competition etc...
he is wearing an nflpa hat ,but still sportin' a broncos logo on his shirt...seems to be playing mediator between the union and the players (just a bit)
i like his attitude and he sounds confident the team's offense will be improved.and please none of the tired ol' "what else is he gonna say":D

LOL!
Getting Royal "more involved"
Thats great!
Too bad O-tron cant throw a football 25 yards accurately,keeping
Royal from ever being "more involved".

[slim]

LOL!
Getting Royal "more involved"
Thats great!
Too bad O-tron cant throw a football 25 yards accurately,keeping
Royal from ever being "more involved".

Wipe the drool off your chin.

[rationalfan]

LOL!
Getting Royal "more involved"
Thats great!
Too bad O-tron cant throw a football 25 yards accurately,keeping
Royal from ever being "more involved".

wouldn't royal have to be open for orton to throw it his way?

[T.K.O.]

http://thm-a03.yimg.com/nimage/e075aa4213b97f88

[T.K.O.]

Kyle Orton welcomes competition with Brady Quinn
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 6, 2010 2:47 PM ET
Addressing the media for the first time since Brady Quinn arrived in Denver, Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton said he's more than happy to compete with Quinn or anyone else for playing time.

But Orton also said he's confident that he's the team's starter, and that he really thinks of his situation as competing with himself.

"I told [Broncos coach Josh McDaniels] I've never backed down from competition so it won't really change my mindset going into the season at all," Orton said. "My focus is on getting this offense where it needs to go."

Orton also said he views his biggest challenge as becoming more of a leader in Denver.

"I think I can take my leadership to a whole new level," Orton said. "To have a great offense you have to have a guy that demands it from everybody, starting with yourself, so I've got to demand perfection out of my play. I'm going to expect that from everyone on our offense as well."

Orton is a restricted free agent and hasn't signed his one-year, $2.261 million tender offer. But he said he's participating in the Broncos' offseason program without a contract because he thinks as the team's leader, he needs to be there.

[T.K.O.]

http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/ortonjack.gif

hell yeah ! i'd drink to that win !.....and have:D

[underrated29]

Kyle Orton welcomes competition with Brady Quinn
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 6, 2010 2:47 PM ET
Addressing the media for the first time since Brady Quinn arrived in Denver, Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton said he's more than happy to compete with Quinn or anyone else for playing time.

But Orton also said he's confident that he's the team's starter, and that he really thinks of his situation as competing with himself.

"I told [Broncos coach Josh McDaniels] I've never backed down from competition so it won't really change my mindset going into the season at all," Orton said. "My focus is on getting this offense where it needs to go."

Orton also said he views his biggest challenge as becoming more of a leader in Denver.

"I think I can take my leadership to a whole new level," Orton said. "To have a great offense you have to have a guy that demands it from everybody, starting with yourself, so I've got to demand perfection out of my play. I'm going to expect that from everyone on our offense as well."

Orton is a restricted free agent and hasn't signed his one-year, $2.261 million tender offer. But he said he's participating in the Broncos' offseason program without a contract because he thinks as the team's leader, he needs to be there.




Kyle Orton in Jay cutlers body... That is one hell of a QB right there. But KO on his own should be good enough.

[claymore]

Kyle Orton welcomes competition with Brady Quinn
Posted by Michael David Smith on April 6, 2010 2:47 PM ET
Addressing the media for the first time since Brady Quinn arrived in Denver, Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton said he's more than happy to compete with Quinn or anyone else for playing time.

But Orton also said he's confident that he's the team's starter, and that he really thinks of his situation as competing with himself.

"I told [Broncos coach Josh McDaniels] I've never backed down from competition so it won't really change my mindset going into the season at all," Orton said. "My focus is on getting this offense where it needs to go."

Orton also said he views his biggest challenge as becoming more of a leader in Denver.

"I think I can take my leadership to a whole new level," Orton said. "To have a great offense you have to have a guy that demands it from everybody, starting with yourself, so I've got to demand perfection out of my play. I'm going to expect that from everyone on our offense as well."

Orton is a restricted free agent and hasn't signed his one-year, $2.261 million tender offer. But he said he's participating in the Broncos' offseason program without a contract because he thinks as the team's leader, he needs to be there.

I love Orton. I hope he pulls it off. He needs to open it up a little more though.

[T.K.O.]

i agree....did you hear the part where he talked about getting more "chunk plays" ? i think we will see a more explosive attack this year .

[claymore]

i agree....did you hear the part where he talked about getting more "chunk plays" ? i think we will see a more explosive attack this year .

I hope so, the overall offense of last year was disgusting, and hard to watch. I hope we see something completley different.

[honz]

LOL!
Getting Royal "more involved"
Thats great!
Too bad O-tron cant throw a football 25 yards accurately,keeping
Royal from ever being "more involved".

Funny...he seemed to be able to connect with Brandon Lloyd, Jabar Gaffney, and Brandon Marshall downfield. I like Royal a lot, but dude needs to step his game up this year.

[SOCALORADO.]

Funny...he seemed to be able to connect with Brandon Lloyd, Jabar Gaffney, and Brandon Marshall downfield. I like Royal a lot, but dude needs to step his game up this year.

Funny, but "connecting" when you can throw it underhand isnt exactly what Royal was looking for 30 yards downfield.
I think its Orton who needs to step it up and actually throw farther than his usual 10 yard screen pass.

[WARHORSE]

I like Orton.

I hope he plays even better this year for his sake and ours.

I totally believe he can.

[silkamilkamonico]

Funny, but "connecting" when you can throw it underhand isnt exactly what Royal was looking for 30 yards downfield.
I think its Orton who needs to step it up and actually throw farther than his usual 10 yard screen pass.

Orton needs to get better, and so does Royal for that matter.,

Royal was easily the biggest disappointment for Denver last year, and if he doesn't step up his game he isn't going to be more than a #3/#4 WR option on any team in the NFL.

[honz]

Funny, but "connecting" when you can throw it underhand isnt exactly what Royal was looking for 30 yards downfield.
I think its Orton who needs to step it up and actually throw farther than his usual 10 yard screen pass.

Lloyd matched Royal's big plays on the season in the one game where he got significant playing time.

[T.K.O.]

Funny, but "connecting" when you can throw it underhand isnt exactly what Royal was looking for 30 yards downfield.
I think its Orton who needs to step it up and actually throw farther than his usual 10 yard screen pass.

http://henryva.schoolwires.com/344275512104335/lib/344275512104335/8.gif

[SOCALORADO.]

Lloyd matched Royal's big plays on the season in the one game where he got significant playing time.

So Lloyd had a deep bomb for 9 yards and a super duper deep bomb for 11 yards. After he caught them he ran past almost every player on both teams.....even Orton had made his way further downfield.
:laugh:

[T.K.O.]

being the leader that he is orton said it was on both he and eddie to get better and that they just missed on some plays.but both are working hard to improve their timing and understanding of the offense !
sounds like they have a plan. and orton said royal can....WILL be a big part of the O this season:salute:

[SOCALORADO.]

Orton needs to get better, and so does Royal for that matter.,

Royal was easily the biggest disappointment for Denver last year, and if he doesn't step up his game he isn't going to be more than a #3/#4 WR option on any team in the NFL.

How does Royal go from such a prolific and incedibly talented route runner, in an offense tailored for him, to just a ghost in one season?

[e-Lou-sive1]

Orton is only the starter on paper right now and Mc Daniels has to say Orton is the starter as well to avoid another foul up. As far Orton welcoming the competition that's just a politically correct statement because If Denver thought he was good enough why bring in another competitor?.

If your boss told you, "You're doing a great job but we thought it would be interesting if we brought in somebody to compete against you but don't worry we still think that you will end up on top "Good Luck!

Orton shouldn't worry too much about getting Royal the ball as long as he finds the open receiver. Orton should look at the entire field and not just the primary receiver and If Royal is open chunk it out there and hope he catches it or someone can deflect it to him.

Everything should play out in preseason and whoever hears more applause will eventually be the starter between the three quarterbacks this should get interesting.

[silkamilkamonico]

How does Royal go from such a prolific and incedibly talented route runner, in an offense tailored for him, to just a ghost in one season?

That's where it stops for Royal. He isn't very physical at the line, and teams jammed him every game last year, which completely took him out of his timing pattern. Worse yet, Royal is absolutely terrible once his route breaks down, he simply just doesn't know what to do, or how to make himself available to the QB. Considering Denver couldn't get much of a pocket last year made Royal almost worthless.

[T.K.O.]

Funny, but "connecting" when you can throw it underhand isnt exactly what Royal was looking for 30 yards downfield.
I think its Orton who needs to step it up and actually throw farther than his usual 10 yard screen pass.

from last year........

Orton has a weak arm ?

One of the more bizarre charges against Orton is the he can’t throw deep. What makes this such a strange accusation is that it completely ignores a draft system that is set up to choose the best players from the hundreds of colleges and universities across the country.

While at Purdue Orton managed to pass for enough yards to be fourth on the Big Tens all time career list.

Any quarterback who gets drafted will have been thoroughly scrutinized and no coach will ever handicap himself by taking a quarterback who can’t make all the throws he needs to. Generally when a quarterback is called ‘weak—armed’ it is because they strongly prefer to throw short passes.

‘Weak—armed’ quarterbacks have included guys like Joe Montana and Tom Brady. A quarterback in an offense that emphasizes short passes is often the target of the term ‘weak—armed’.

Orton’s scouting report from Scouts Inc., the service ESPN uses, says the following: “He has a strong arm and can make all the throws.”

Pro Football Weekly says, “Can zip the ball with velocity, make back-shoulder throws and shows good overall accuracy when his feet are set and he steps into his throws.”

Maybe the best evidence is this video which pretty well shows off Orton’s ability to get the ball down—field.

Just by way of comparison, Peyton Manning, in 2008, completed passes over 20 yards at a rate of 35 percent while Orton is at 37 percent.

[SOCALORADO.]

from last year........

Orton has a weak arm ?

One of the more bizarre charges against Orton is the he can’t throw deep. What makes this such a strange accusation is that it completely ignores a draft system that is set up to choose the best players from the hundreds of colleges and universities across the country.

While at Purdue Orton managed to pass for enough yards to be fourth on the Big Tens all time career list.

Any quarterback who gets drafted will have been thoroughly scrutinized and no coach will ever handicap himself by taking a quarterback who can’t make all the throws he needs to. Generally when a quarterback is called ‘weak—armed’ it is because they strongly prefer to throw short passes.

‘Weak—armed’ quarterbacks have included guys like Joe Montana and Tom Brady. A quarterback in an offense that emphasizes short passes is often the target of the term ‘weak—armed’.

Orton’s scouting report from Scouts Inc., the service ESPN uses, says the following: “He has a strong arm and can make all the throws.”

Pro Football Weekly says, “Can zip the ball with velocity, make back-shoulder throws and shows good overall accuracy when his feet are set and he steps into his throws.”

Maybe the best evidence is this video which pretty well shows off Orton’s ability to get the ball down—field.

Just by way of comparison, Peyton Manning, in 2008, completed passes over 20 yards at a rate of 35 percent while Orton is at 37 percent.

Orton has weak arm. Deal with it.

[Denver Native (Carol)]

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_14829860

Regardless if the teammate behind him is Brady Quinn, Chris Simms or Tom Brandstater, Broncos quarterback Kyle Orton said today that he views his biggest competition now as himself.

Orton has been a Bronco for just over a year — having arrived via trade on April 2, 2009 — and said is confident he will be able to improve in his second year as the team's starting quarterback.

Coach Josh McDaniels has said that Orton remains the starter despite the acquisition of Quinn in a trade with Cleveland last month.

"I told (McDaniels) I've never backed down from competition so it won't really change my mindset going into the season at all," Orton said. "My focus is on getting this offense where it needs to go. The more you can be around guys, and be that guy, and have everyone looking to you, the easier it is."

Orton said that the Broncos' offense is "already ahead" now compared to this time a year ago because of his familiarity with the playbook and with his teammates, especially receivers Eddie Royal and Jabar Gaffney. The team's top receiver from 2009, restricted free agent Brandon Marshall, has not joined the team for voluntary workouts and it remains unlikely Marshall will be a Bronco in 2010.

Orton said he would like to see Denver's offense open up more with downfield plays - "It's easy to talk about but certainly a lot harder to do," Orton said - and get Royal more involved. But the Broncos' first minicamp is still weeks away, so now is time for team building, which Orton said is his primary goal.

"I think I can take my leadership to a whole new level," Orton said. "To have a great offense you have to have a guy that demands it from everybody, starting with yourself, so I've got to demand perfection out of my play. I'm going to expect that from everyone on our offense as well."

[underrated29]

Orton needs to get better, and so does Royal for that matter.,

Royal was easily the biggest disappointment for Denver last year, and if he doesn't step up his game he isn't going to be more than a #3/#4 WR option on any team in the NFL.




I CAN guarantee you that he will never be that low. When we drafted him I said he was a mix of Lee evans and wes welker, and would make his main mark as a WR not a PR. Eddie will reach all of his potential, just give the team, the QB and him time.

[honz]

So Lloyd had a deep bomb for 9 yards and a super duper deep bomb for 11 yards. After he caught them he ran past almost every player on both teams.....even Orton had made his way further downfield.
:laugh:
I believe they connected deeper than that, but isn't your post really an indictment of Royal? Royal was not a playmaker last year and you just said that yourself. Hopefully he can remind us of the ability we know he has this year.

[SOCALORADO.]

I believe they connected deeper than that, but isn't your post really an indictment of Royal? Royal was not a playmaker last year and you just said that yourself. Hopefully he can remind us of the ability we know he has this year.

Royal was sent on "30 yard deep routes" all year.
Orton just cant throw that far.
I wonder what Royals 100 time is now?!?!
I mean after all that practice..

[silkamilkamonico]

I CAN guarantee you that he will never be that low. When we drafted him I said he was a mix of Lee evans and wes welker, and would make his main mark as a WR not a PR. Eddie will reach all of his potential, just give the team, the QB and him time.


Well, he's taken significant steps back, and he just isn't a slot WR by style.

He's absolutely nothing like Wes Welker. Welker utilizes space better than any WR I can remember, and Royal doesn't have a clue what to do when he gets into space. Royal also doesn't know what to do when his route runs off. If teams are physical with him at the LOS, which they are more and more, his route is basically worthless.

I thought last year Royal showed that he is nowhere near being any kind of a top 2, or 3 WR option for any team. He'll likely line up in most sets and be used if he's unaccounted for, but other WR's in Denver are already going to get looked at first to make a play.

[silkamilkamonico]

Royal was sent on "30 yard deep routes" all year.
Orton just cant throw that far.
I wonder what Royals 100 time is now?!?!
I mean after all that practice..

That's completely not true. Royal's routes were mainly 7-9 yard comeback patterns and outs, and the dude was never open.

Gaffney had the most down the field patterns on Denver last year and was basically their "deep threat", if you want to call it that.

[Ravage!!!]

That's completely not true. Royal's routes were mainly 7-9 yard comeback patterns and outs, and the dude was never open.

Gaffney had the most down the field patterns on Denver last year and was basically their "deep threat", if you want to call it that.

Its weird that he was open for 90 catches last year. Are you certain he was NEVER open, or that the QB just never felt he was 'open' enough for him to throw the ball... maybe being too cautious with it, or simply not anticipating?

I just can't see how, in one year, we see a young kid that was bragged on for the precise routes he ran, even at such a young stage in his career as a rookie, could run such veteran routes..... and this year, just could 'never' get open.

[T.K.O.]

Orton has weak arm. Deal with it.

deal with this.................:D<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eQS6-v75qms&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eQS6-v75qms&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[BigBroncLove]

Its weird that he was open for 90 catches last year. Are you certain he was NEVER open, or that the QB just never felt he was 'open' enough for him to throw the ball... maybe being too cautious with it, or simply not anticipating?

I just can't see how, in one year, we see a young kid that was bragged on for the precise routes he ran, even at such a young stage in his career as a rookie, could run such veteran routes..... and this year, just could 'never' get open.

Exactly. i think he was open quite a bit personally. I think the problem is, and McDaniels said it, that Royal was used as a decoy a lot last year. Being a decoy means Royal is further down in the progression for the QB (maybe option #3 or #4) and I personally don't feel Orton was very good at seeing the whole field last year.

That's why we saw so many catches to a single player in each Bronco game. The playbook was designed for that player on that game and Orton would stare them down at times until they became open. That or simply push through his progression slower then the play allowed and never make it to Royal. Don't get me wrong I don't think Royal was open all the time, but he was certainly in a position to receive more passes then he did.

[Timmy!]

Anybody with a DVR or smart enough to pull up some youtube videos can tell you Orton has an average arm. Not weak, not strong, but completely average for an NFL QB. It's not like Orton was calling all the screen passes in the huddle. As for Royal he simple did not get much separation last season. If memory serves wasn't Royal battling some sort of injury most of this season as well?

Part of the reason the long rang passing game wasn't working was in the 2nd half of the year teams figured out that if you blitz right up the middle the Broncos interior pass blocking was piss poor. Combine that with a gimpy Orton who runs like a wounded giraffe when pressured and throwing the ball down field dies. Orton will never be confused as having a rocket launcher for an arm, which I think many Denver fans just assume all QB's have, but it's not weak.

[Buff]

Say this for Orton: He does and says all the right things. Guy is a leader. Now we just need him to get that 3rd down conversion rate up.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

deal with this.................:D<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eQS6-v75qms&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eQS6-v75qms&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

Yeah, Ryan Leaf had awesome college highlights, too. :coffee:

[slim]

I thought Groundhog Day was just a movie.

[Northman]

That's completely not true. Royal's routes were mainly 7-9 yard comeback patterns and outs, and the dude was never open.

Gaffney had the most down the field patterns on Denver last year and was basically their "deep threat", if you want to call it that.

Because generally when you get to the 3rd DB they are not even close to being the type of calibur player as the 1st and 2nd DB.

[silkamilkamonico]

Its weird that he was open for 90 catches last year. Are you certain he was NEVER open, or that the QB just never felt he was 'open' enough for him to throw the ball... maybe being too cautious with it, or simply not anticipating?

I just can't see how, in one year, we see a young kid that was bragged on for the precise routes he ran, even at such a young stage in his career as a rookie, could run such veteran routes..... and this year, just could 'never' get open.

I'm sure it's a combination of both.

Also, his route running isn't an issue. The problem is, he can't get into his route if he can't get off the LOS. Last year teams were physical with him all game at the LOS, and the guy was just never open. I paid attention to Royal big time last year, because I thought he would break out and be huge, and Marshall would be the one taking a back seat. I was wrong.

I'm not sure if McDaniels offense requires more reading the coverages than Shanahan's, but Royal was also very bad in space. He never sat in the open part of zones like Marshall or Gaffney did, and considering we didn't have much of a pocket at all as the year went on, it looked like he wasn't very good at all in helping out the QB.

IMHO, Royal doesn't have the cerebral ability to play the slot like Welker. He doesn't play like he has a feeling of what's going on and where he's supposed to be. So that put's him in the outside where CB's are going to jam him at the LOS. I hope it changes this year, but I'm not anticipating it will unless I actually see it.

[silkamilkamonico]

Because generally when you get to the 3rd DB they are not even close to being the type of calibur player as the 1st and 2nd DB.

Royal only ran 7-9 yard outs and Gaffney ran more deep routes because they got to the 3rd DB? Huh?

[Northman]

So Orton welcomes competition. Awesome, lets bake some brownies. Here's a thought, less talk, more winning next year.

[Northman]

Royal only ran 7-9 yard outs and Gaffney ran more deep routes because they got to the 3rd DB? Huh?

My point is that both brandon and Eddie faced better DB's on the field than Jabar did when playing at the 3rd spot. Does it mean that Eddie didnt get lost when his route got taken away? No. But then again i dont expect him to have the same experience as Jabar either. You have to take everything into consideration before trying to bash the player.

[silkamilkamonico]

My point is that both brandon and Eddie faced better DB's on the field than Jabar did when playing at the 3rd spot. Does it mean that Eddie didnt get lost when his route got taken away? No. But then again i dont expect him to have the same experience as Jabar either. You have to take everything into consideration before trying to bash the player.

What does this have to do with Royal running shorter routes than Gaffney? I didn't say anything about Gaffney's "production". And Gaffney's production, or lack of it throughout the course of the year, is completely irrelevant to Royal running shorter routes.

[topscribe]

Funny...he seemed to be able to connect with Brandon Lloyd, Jabar Gaffney, and Brandon Marshall downfield. I like Royal a lot, but dude needs to step his game up this year.

Contrary to the opinion of several comments I've read, the opponents' safeties
played deep a lot. I read an analysis . . . I think it was Krieger's, I'm not sure
(and he has had some good insight lately) . . . that talked about how the
other teams began to lose respect for Denver's running game and didn't worry
about it a whole lot. So they just played seven up front and laid back for the
pass.

Buckhalter's and Harris' getting hurt didn't help, nor did Wiegmann's and
Hamilton's wearing down in the second half, which brought in a couple
ineffectual replacements.

But if that is truly the case, then I am somewhat impressed by the passing
game because they were throwing into the teeth of the defense perhaps more
than we thought. If they get the running game going again this year, then we
might see a definite upsurge in the passing game and more open lanes deep.

It'll be nice if we indeed see that happen . . .

-----

[Northman]

What does this have to do with Royal running shorter routes than Gaffney? I didn't say anything about Gaffney's "production". And Gaffney's production, or lack of it throughout the course of the year, is completely irrelevant to Royal running shorter routes.

So, your giving the guy a hard time because he is running the route drawn up? I dont get it. Maybe ive missed some other point you were trying to make but the receivers run the routes drawn up so if Royal got stuck doing the out routes than that is what McD had him do. Dont know what to tell you from there.

[TXBRONC]

That's completely not true. Royal's routes were mainly 7-9 yard comeback patterns and outs, and the dude was never open.

Gaffney had the most down the field patterns on Denver last year and was basically their "deep threat", if you want to call it that.

And you know Royal was running mainly 7-9 yard patterns because you have headset at you house and the coach's play book?

The only other way you would know what routes he was mainly running is you attended most games that the Broncos played this year because you can't get the kind of view of field from a television set. Nice try.

[silkamilkamonico]

So, your giving the guy a hard time because he is running the route drawn up? I dont get it. Maybe ive missed some other point you were trying to make but the receivers run the routes drawn up so if Royal got stuck doing the out routes than that is what McD had him do. Dont know what to tell you from there.

No. I'm giving the guy a hard time because after he runs his route, and Orton is trying to scramble which he isn't very good at, Royal doesn't know what to do. Marshall is excellent and helping the QB out when the play breaks down, Royal, not so much.

All WR's run routes. If the offensive line can't form a pocket, the play breaks down, and WR's need to either make an adjustment on their route, or come back to help their QB.

Our offense this year didn't have the same timing it did last yeat when Royal was a rookie. It's one of the reasons why Royal wasn't an impact a lot of the time. When the QB is running for his life, he;s looking for a WR to help him. That's where Royal wasn't very good.

[silkamilkamonico]

And you know Royal was running mainly 7-9 yard patterns because you have headset at you house and the coach's play book?

The only other way you would know what routes he was mainly running is you attended most games that the Broncos played this year because you can't get the kind of view of field from a television set. Nice try.

Apprently you don't watch the games on TV. Try it sometime. Try seeing where the WR is throughout the play, and after it. The casual observer of Denver fans could see that Royal was almost always used, for whatever reason, it short to intermediate routes.

Great argument, you really blew the roof off with that one.

LMAO

[Ravage!!!]

Apprently you don't watch the games on TV. Try it sometime. Try seeing where the WR is throughout the play, and after it. The casual observer of Denver fans could see that Royal was almost always used, for whatever reason, it short to intermediate routes.

Great argument, you really blew the roof off with that one.

LMAO

Silk.. your comments come across as being VERY very broad with HUGE generalizations regarding Royal. You haven't shown anything other than to say "watch the games"... which is what people say only when they are trying to be an a-hole (I know, I've done it, as well).

But no one simply believes that you have the ability to break down film, and certainly have the ability to make such BROAD statements about his football intelligence, his inability to read coverages, or his inabilty to get open.... PURELY based on you "watching the games"...on TV... no matter how well you state you 'watch the games' better than the rest of us do.

Just sayin

[silkamilkamonico]

Silk.. your comments come across as being VERY very broad with HUGE generalizations regarding Royal. You haven't shown anything other than to say "watch the games"... which is what people say only when they are trying to be an a-hole (I know, I've done it, as well).

But no one simply believes that you have the ability to break down film, and certainly have the ability to make such BROAD statements about his football intelligence, his inability to read coverages, or his inabilty to get open.... PURELY based on you "watching the games"...on TV... no matter how well you state you 'watch the games' better than the rest of us do.

Just sayin

The argument is Royal's route running. It's also an opinionated observation.

WR routes, especially comeback routes, hooks, out routes, etc...only runs over a generalized area. What happens if the QB still has the ball and they finished running their route? Do they say "**** it", and move on to the next play? No, they're supposed to move around and try to get open to help their QB.

And who said anything about breaking down film? Do I need to break down film to watch one of the 30 or so passing plays and get a general idea where the WR's are? I know where Eddie Royal is, and it sure as hell isn't around the football.

[silkamilkamonico]

Also, if McDaniels is indeed running a similiar offense to the Patriots, the WR's are required to read the coverage, and make adjustments to their route on some patters. Wes Welker is excellent and finding the soft spots of a zone and sitting in them. So a WR route changes based on the defenses coverage. Some WR's are better at making that adjustment than others. Everything isn't a fixed and concrete pattern in football.

[TXBRONC]

Apprently you don't watch the games on TV. Try it sometime. Try seeing where the WR is throughout the play, and after it. The casual observer of Denver fans could see that Royal was almost always used, for whatever reason, it short to intermediate routes.

Great argument, you really blew the roof off with that one.

LMAO

Really? Apparently I watch more than you do because anyone with a set of eyes that work that camera follows the ball. In other words on passing plays you see the quarterback until the ball is thrown. So there is no way you're going to know where Royal is unless the ball thrown to him. So you're full of ish if you're going to try to tell me you know where Royal is in the split second that ball is thrown unless it is thrown to him. You might want to try and come up with an argument where can at least fake being competent.

Oh I forgot LMAO.

[silkamilkamonico]

Really? Apparently I watch more than you do because anyone with a set of eyes that work that camera follows the ball. In other words on passing plays you see the quarterback until the ball until the ball is thrown. So there is no way you're going to know where Royal is unless the ball thrown to him. So you're full of ish if you're going to try to tell me you know where Royal is in the split second that ball is thrown unless it is thrown to him. You might want to try and come up with an argument where can at least fake being competent.

That's probably you're problem. I don't need to follow the ball when the RB is running with it to know where it's at. I don't need to follow the ball when the QB is dropping back in the pocket looking for a WR to know where it's at.

When the QB throws the ball downfield, do you not see all the other players in the view of the camera (sometimes, and a lot of times the WR's that are running the short patterns), or are you just that fixated on "following the ball" that you don't notice the other players in view?

LMAO

[TXBRONC]

That's probably you're problem. I don't need to follow the ball when the RB is running with it to know where it's at. I don't need to follow the ball when the QB is dropping back in the pocket looking for a WR to know where it's at.

When the QB throws the ball downfield, do you not see all the other players in the view of the camera (sometimes, and a lot of times the WR's that are running the short patterns), or are you just that fixated on "following the ball" that you don't notice the other players in view?

LMAO

You're a joke. There is no way eyes are that fast to pick up where Royal is. In your dreams maybe you're that good but not in the real world.

LMAO :lol:

[silkamilkamonico]

Here ya go TX..and try not to get so fixated on the ball.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tJDTdZ5eBDc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tJDTdZ5eBDc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

Notice on the first highlight Eddie Royal running into view. I can assure you that wasn't a deep route.

[silkamilkamonico]

You're a joke. There is no way eyes are that fast to pick up where Royal is. In your dreams maybe you're that good but not in the real world.

LMAO :lol:

Oops on that one, huh.....

LMAO

[TXBRONC]

Here ya go TX..and try not to get so fixated on the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJDTdZ5eBDc

Notice on the first highlight Eddie Royal running into view. I can assure you that wasn't a deep route.

:lol: A blank screen.

Brilliant. :lol:

More to the point how would that prove that Royal basically ran just short 7 to 9 yard routes.

I'll never just take your word for it because you tend not to be exactly truthful.

[silkamilkamonico]

:lol: A blank screen.

Brilliant. :lol:

uhh, no.

Apparently you really do need your eyes checked.

[silkamilkamonico]

:lol: A blank screen.

Brilliant. :lol:

More to the point how would that prove that Royal basically ran just short 7 to 9 yard routes.

I'll never just take your word for it because you tend not to be exactly truthful.

Awesome argument.

"How can you possibly see where the other WR's are....."

LMAO

[TXBRONC]

uhh, no.

Apparently you really do need your eyes checked.

Do yourself a favor and look at post #61.

All that's there is your smart ass comment.

[silkamilkamonico]

Do yourself a favor and look at post #61.

All that's there is your smart ass comment.


Did you let it load before you quoted? Because it shows up just fine on my post. Or are you just ignoring your ignorant argument of "how can you possibly see where the other WR's are"?

[TXBRONC]

Did you let it load before you quoted? Because it shows up just fine on my post. Or are you just ignoring your ignorant argument of "how can you possibly see where the other WR's are"?

Don't blame me because your crap didn't load. I had left the thread and then came back in so it should have been there.

[BigBroncLove]

Don't blame me because your crap didn't load. I had left the thread and then came back in so it should have been there.

Heheheh.

I gotta admit TX, it seems like a dirty, albeit funny trick, but the link is working on page 4 just fine. All the quoted responses however do not. I have drank my fair share of titan IPA watching the replay of the 2005 divisional game so I could be wrong, but the reasonable answer is the link got damaged in quotes, not the original post. Mmmmm..... beer.

Also I will say that one play and one set of game footage is not enough to make case against a seasons worth of toll of Royal. I have watched my fair share of game film and have come up with an entirely different stance on Royal.

tJDTdZ5eBDc

[TXBRONC]

Heheheh.

I gotta admit TX, it seems like a dirty, albeit funny trick, but the link is working on page 4 just fine. All the quoted responses however do not. I have drank my fair share of titan IPA watching the replay of the 2005 divisional game so I could be wrong, but the reasonable answer is the link got damaged in quotes, not the original post. Mmmmm..... beer.

Also I will say that one play and one set of game footage is not enough to make case against a seasons worth of toll of Royal. I have watched my fair share of game film and have come up with an entirely different stance on Royal.

tJDTdZ5eBDc

I didn't do anything to his clip.

I did go back look on page 4 and it had finally loaded in his original post. That's edit game film from NFL Replay.

Agreed, one play of one doesn't tell you what kind of routes Royal ran the majority of the time.

[BigBroncLove]

I didn't do anything to his clip.

I did go back look on page 4 and it had finally loaded in his original post. That's edit game film from NFL Replay.

Agreed, one play of one doesn't tell you what kind of routes Royal ran the majority of the time.

Fair enough. I drank a lot of beer tonight watching the sweet sweet playoff game in 2005, so I wasn't casting blame. Just saying what I thought might of happened.

Honestly every one of the plays we saw in that video, with exception to the first, show marshall in the undeniable position to be the first man to throw it too. Even the one handed catch, where the pass was simply off target. In my opinion I feel royal, from the game film I've scrutinized, is more than capable of making the case to throw the pass too. I stick by my previous position that Orton needs to learn to flow his progression faster, which would have made Orton more productive last season IMHO. If he can do that in his second season, with more familitarity in what this offense is, I think we will see more production from whoever is running the deep route. Whether it's Royal, McKinley, or a drafted player. All the same, this year I believe will be a better test of Royals skills and abilities, not the last one.

[silkamilkamonico]

Agreed, one play of one doesn't tell you what kind of routes Royal ran the majority of the time.

No, but it does show you that, yes, at times, you indeed can get an idea of where the other WR's are.

[silkamilkamonico]

Fair enough. I drank a lot of beer tonight watching the sweet sweet playoff game in 2005, so I wasn't casting blame. Just saying what I thought might of happened.

Honestly every one of the plays we saw in that video, with exception to the first, show marshall in the undeniable position to be the first man to throw it too. Even the one handed catch, where the pass was simply off target. In my opinion I feel royal, from the game film I've scrutinized, is more than capable of making the pass. I stick by my previous position that Orton needs to learn to flow his progression faster, which would have made Orton more productive last season IMHO. If he can do that in his second season, with more familitarity in what this offense is, I think we will see more production from whoever is running the deep route. Whether it's Royal, McKinley, or a drafted player.

I think he's going to have to if Denver is going to be successful, and especially if McDaniels wants to trade Marshall. I don't like the idea of trading Marshall, but I understand it from the contractual standpoint. It will be interesting to see what happens if Marshall is gone because Orton won't have that WR there anymore to bail him out.

[BigBroncLove]

I think he's going to have to if Denver is going to be successful, and especially if McDaniels wants to trade Marshall. I don't like the idea of trading Marshall, but I understand it from the contractual standpoint. It will be interesting to see what happens if Marshall is gone because Orton won't have that WR there anymore to bail him out.

Well if we look at Ortons overall spread of the ball, with the exception of a few games, he favors one receiver every game. I think that is a testament to his ability to see the field clearly and flow through his progression properly. However I do agree with the sentiment that Marshall bailed this team (and Orton) out of losses some games. Dallas is a case in point on the matter but is not an isolated incident. If the Broncos want to become a better than .500 team, the will have to learn to rely less on the skills of one player, and become a complete offense. Whether that means Orton, the offensive line, or the WR core. Everyone can improve and that's a fact since none of us believe there is a perfect player out there (BM included). Honestly though, I believe firmly that Royals play was no where near as poor as you suggest. Could it improve? undoubtably.... but that doesn't mean he was ignored when he was more than available on many plays in the season. Look at the first game against SD as a very strong point if you still have the film downloaded.

[TXBRONC]

No, but it does show you that, yes, at times, you indeed can get an idea of where the other WR's are.

You ignored the rest quote from my post to BBL. Your clip is from NFL Replay which means that was edited game film. Watching the game you would have never caught that. Even so there are only two highlights where could clearly distinguish Royal. The first one is at the beginning of your clip where Denver is down inside 20 so I wouldn't expect him to run a deep route. The only other time I could identify him for sure he was running a fly route.

[silkamilkamonico]

You ignored the rest quote from my post to BBL. Your clip is from NFL Replay which means that was edited game film. Watching the game you would have never caught that. Even so there are only two highlights where could clearly distinguish Royal. The first one is at the beginning of your clip where Denver is down inside 20 so I would expect to deep route. The only other time I could identify him for sure he was running a fly route.

What do you think you're watching every weekend when you're watching the game? One camera angle? They even have a camera tied to a flywire that goes down the middle of the field when they show replays from that angle. With all the different angles of replays nowadays, you can pretty much get an idea of where every almost WR is after the play, at least the ones that are on that side of the field.

And royal better be improved this year, because last year he didn;t give Denver much of anything. 37 catches at 9.3 ypc (20 Long) spells short possession WR at best. He's going to need to be better. The dude got outplayed by Jabar Gaffney in almost every statistical category tracked.

I was wrong about Royal "breaking out in McDaniels offense", hopefully I'm wrong again when I now say he isn't good for it. At least try and find a common ground for crying out loud.

[topscribe]

Well if we look at Ortons overall spread of the ball, with the exception of a few games, he favors one receiver every game. I think that is a testament to his ability to see the field clearly and flow through his progression properly. However I do agree with the sentiment that Marshall bailed this team (and Orton) out of losses some games. Dallas is a case in point on the matter but is not an isolated incident. If the Broncos want to become a better than .500 team, the will have to learn to rely less on the skills of one player, and become a complete offense. Whether that means Orton, the offensive line, or the WR core. Everyone can improve and that's a fact since none of us believe there is a perfect player out there (BM included). Honestly though, I believe firmly that Royals play was no where near as poor as you suggest. Could it improve? undoubtably.... but that doesn't mean he was ignored when he was more than available on many plays in the season. Look at the first game against SD as a very strong point if you still have the film downloaded.

Actually, Orton did exactly what I would do. Find a soft spot and attack it
until they can stop it. In the case of Marshall in one game and Gaffney in
another, for instance, why go anywhere else when they absolutely do not
have an answer for them? Nope, spreading the ball just to demonstrate my
ability to see the field is not that answer when one receiver proves unstoppable.

Anyway, every good QB seems to have someone who "bails" him out. Brady
has Moss and Welker. Montana had Rice and Taylor. Bradshaw had Swann and
Stallworth. An Elway, who seemed to be able to bail himself out (Madden said
Elway was the closest thing to a one man gang he'd ever seen), does not
come around very often.

So if Marshall goes, who is going to be there to bail out Orton and the offense?
Gaffney, Royal, and Stokley are very good receivers. But Marshall is the only
one I can see on the team who is the "bail out" kind of receiver, as you implied.

-----

[BigBroncLove]

Actually, Orton did exactly what I would do. Find a soft spot and attack it
until they can stop it. In the case of Marshall in one game and Gaffney in
another, for instance, why go anywhere else when they absolutely do not
have an answer for them? Nope, spreading the ball just to demonstrate my
ability to see the field is not that answer when one receiver proves unstoppable.

Anyway, every good QB seems to have someone who "bails" him out. Brady
has Moss and Welker. Montana had Rice and Taylor. Bradshaw had Swann and
Stallworth. An Elway, who seemed to be able to bail himself out (Madden said
Elway was the closest thing to a one man gang he'd ever seen), does not
come around very often.

So if Marshall goes, who is going to be there to bail out Orton and the offense?
Gaffney, Royal, and Stokley are very good receivers. But Marshall is the only
one I can see on the team who is the "bail out" kind of receiver, as you implied.

-----
I will have to disagree. In the case of Orton, it didn't prove, "until the defense can stop them". It was more... ride the horse till the defense won't allow it. Hence the high number of three and outs and bad reads. Why then, in so many games in the latter part of the season, did we see a heavy reliance on one WR without any W in the outcome column?

I agree with BM as being the only WR with the "bail out" tag we are talking about, but I suggest looking at Orton's overall progression and production. It's the same every time. He stares down WR's and moves very slowly through his progression. Whether that is a result of Ortons ability as a QB or simply his growing comfort with an unknown system remains unknown.

None the less, there were many times when a WR open further down the field was more than available for a great pass in the right spot. this is the option the QB is taught to take advantage, something Orton did not. Did he take the more viable safety valve? yes... but if we look at the system when run under NE that doesn't at all mean that is the first route to be taken. Orton has ground to improve, especially in his ability to read the field and push through his progression. That is my opinion. Does that mean he's a terrible QB? Not by any means... but is an area of personal production he must brush up on if he wants this team to succeed at a higher level in 2010 in my opinion.

[Lancane]

The big thing to me is that if, by chance we do trade Brandon Marshall that Orton's faults, even though he plays soft and safe will come back to haunt himself and the team in whole. Marshall was his safety blanket, he could come back and change the outcome and did so in at least two games. Subtract those game changing catches and the one Stokely had against Cincinnati, the team could have been 5-11 or 6-10 and the whole city of Denver would be howling to rid us of Orton. So I feel Orton needs Marshall and he knows as much. But it all depends on McDaniels and Xanders and they may not care what it does.

Orton reaching out to Marshall little by little is smart IMHO.

[TimTebow15MVP]

I will have to disagree. In the case of Orton, it didn't prove, "until the defense can stop them". It was more... ride the horse till the defense won't allow it. Hence the high number of three and outs and bad reads. Why then, in so many games in the latter part of the season, did we see a heavy reliance on one WR without any W in the outcome column?

I agree with BM as being the only WR with the "bail out" tag we are talking about, but I suggest looking at Orton's overall progression and production. It's the same every time. He stares down WR's and moves very slowly through his progression. Whether that is a result of Ortons ability as a QB or simply his growing comfort with an unknown system remains unknown.

None the less, there were many times when a WR open further down the field was more than available for a great pass in the right spot. this is the option the QB is taught to take advantage, something Orton did not. Did he take the more viable safety valve? yes... but if we look at the system when run under NE that doesn't at all mean that is the first route to be taken. Orton has ground to improve, especially in his ability to read the field and push through his progression. That is my opinion. Does that mean he's a terrible QB? Not by any means... but is an area of personal production he must brush up on if he wants this team to succeed at a higher level in 2010 in my opinion.

Orton does decide to throw it underneath when theres a route open deeper down the field....I mean ill give him the not comfortable arguement in the first 10 weeks but he was missing some guys late in the season also. I think Losing Ryan Harris hurt badly because the last thing Orton needs is pressure right in his face and with him not being mobile spells disaster IMO. Orton still has alot to prove.

Brady QUinn wont be too far behind Orton because hes way more talented and this system is just not new to Quinn. He has more years in the system than Orton does.

[topscribe]

I will have to disagree. In the case of Orton, it didn't prove, "until the defense can stop them". It was more... ride the horse till the defense won't allow it. Hence the high number of three and outs and bad reads. Why then, in so many games in the latter part of the season, did we see a heavy reliance on one WR without any W in the outcome column?

I agree with BM as being the only WR with the "bail out" tag we are talking about, but I suggest looking at Orton's overall progression and production. It's the same every time. He stares down WR's and moves very slowly through his progression. Whether that is a result of Ortons ability as a QB or simply his growing comfort with an unknown system remains unknown.

None the less, there were many times when a WR open further down the field was more than available for a great pass in the right spot. this is the option the QB is taught to take advantage, something Orton did not. Did he take the more viable safety valve? yes... but if we look at the system when run under NE that doesn't at all mean that is the first route to be taken. Orton has ground to improve, especially in his ability to read the field and push through his progression. That is my opinion. Does that mean he's a terrible QB? Not by any means... but is an area of personal production he must brush up on if he wants this team to succeed at a higher level in 2010 in my opinion.

Disagree right back atcha. You say Orton was slow through his progression.
Often, there was not the time to be "slow." In the Baltimore game, for instance,
Orton had an average of 2.1 seconds to get rid of the ball, IIRC. Maybe it was
less - 1.7 seems to stick to the mind, but I'm going with the higher figure.

In the first six games, while Orton had more time, his QBR for each game was
100.7, 83.5, 92.1, 117.5, 96.7, 115.4. Low points were Pitt (43.9) and SD (2nd
game, 55.4), when the opponent's pass rush O-line resembled water through a
collander. In fact, while Orton's performance in the SD game was just plain bad,
the rushing game could have helped in the Pitt game by gaining more than 27
yards.

Even in the last half of the season, when the pass protection was going to hell,
Orton's QBR slipped below 90 only three times, one just missing at 89.1 (NYG).

I realize Orton looked bad at times in the second half of the season, but many
of those times was when he just could not get out of the way with the porous
pass protection and his high ankle sprain. But if you watched the final game
against KC, when he apparently was beginning to recover from that sprain, he
displayed a remarkable sense of the still heavy pass rush, surprising mobility,
good field vision, and accuracy on the run.

Yes, he did have the three INTs. However, only one was a bad throw - and it
admittedly was a horrendous one. But of the other two, one was during garbage
time and the other was a tremendous play by a Pro Bowl linebacker (can't think
of his name off the top).

Orton did display weaknesses, as you alluded, and he owned up to them in
today's (yesterday's, if you are east of PDT) presser. He is a notoriously hard
worker, whose ethic would rival Peyton Manning's (if that is the only attribute
he has that would rival Manning's), so I really expect him to show that he has
overcome some of them this year.

That's my hope, anyway . . .

-----

[Lancane]

I mentioned this in another thread, but don't be surprised if Orton is suddenly traded...even to the likes of Oakland as we get closer to the draft. Not saying that it will happen, but there are a lot of teams still looking for a proven quarterback, and if Campbell is a fairly hot commodity then Orton will be double that, he has much to prove to deserve a contract with us. But another team may be willing to go off statistics alone to get it done. Especially if Quinn is showing himself to be capable.

Just my two cents...

[topscribe]

I mentioned this in another thread, but don't be surprised if Orton is suddenly traded...even to the likes of Oakland as we get closer to the draft. Not saying that it will happen, but there are a lot of teams still looking for a proven quarterback, and if Campbell is a fairly hot commodity then Orton will be double that, he has much to prove to deserve a contract with us. But another team may be willing to go off statistics alone to get it done. Especially if Quinn is showing himself to be capable.

Just my two cents...

I don't believe there is a chance in hell of that. Maybe there are teams looking for
a proven QB, but the Broncos most certainly are not looking to jettison the only
proven QB they have.

I would venture to say that Orton is one of the most untradable players the
Broncos have for that reason . . . I didn't say one of the most talented (although
I believe the jury's still out on that one), but most untradable, simply because
he is, as I said, the only proven one at his position.

-----

[BigBroncLove]

Disagree right back atcha. You say Orton was slow through his progression.
Often, there was not the time to be "slow." In the Baltimore game, for instance,
Orton had an average of 2.1 seconds to get rid of the ball, IIRC. Maybe it was
less - 1.7 seems to stick to the mind, but I'm going with the higher figure.

In the first six games, while Orton had more time, his QBR for each game was
100.7, 83.5, 92.1, 117.5, 96.7, 115.4. Low points were Pitt (43.9) and SD (2nd
game, 55.4), when the opponent's pass rush O-line resembled water through a
collander. In fact, while Orton's performance in the SD game was just plain bad,
the rushing game could have helped in the Pitt game by gaining more than 27
yards.

Even in the last half of the season, when the pass protection was going to hell,
Orton's QBR slipped below 90 only three times, one just missing at 89.1 (NYG).

I realize Orton looked bad at times in the second half of the season, but many
of those times was when he just could not get out of the way with the porous
pass protection and his high ankle sprain. But if you watched the final game
against KC, when he apparently was beginning to recover from that sprain, he
displayed a remarkable sense of the still heavy pass rush, surprising mobility,
good field vision, and accuracy on the run.

Yes, he did have the three INTs. However, only one was a bad throw - and it
admittedly was a horrendous one. But of the other two, one was during garbage
time and the other was a tremendous play by a Pro Bowl linebacker (can't think
of his name off the top).

Orton did display weaknesses, as you alluded, and he owned up to them in
today's (yesterday's, if you are east of PDT) presser. He is a notoriously hard
worker, whose ethic would rival Peyton Manning's (if that is the only attribute
he has that would rival Manning's), so I really expect him to show that he has
overcome some of them this year.

That's my hope, anyway . . .

-----

Hey, I don't disagree with you most of the time topscribe.... well at least not completely. Let me comment properly though.

Even in our first 6 game wins the Broncos normally won on the merits of their defense. The Broncos offense not once showed the spark it did in 2008. Can that be because of relearning an entirely new system for new players.. yes? does it mean it's an excuse? no. Not in my opinion.

Let's also remember. Orton won game one on a fluke pass to Stokley with inflated stats and a poor third down conversion rate. Cleveland and Oakland are gimme's IMO. San Diego was won by ST and defensive sacks. Dallas was won by Marshall and defense. NE was a great game. Solid spread of the ball, and excellent play on both offense and defense.

Also so long as we are looking at stats, lets look at third down conversions in the last part of the season... that was 78/215 or about 36%. That's only slightly below the league average, but staying at that stat is.... average. Who in this league strives to be average? Also, the majority of those missed third down conversions came at the back half of the season. Additionally the majority of plays on third down (over 60%) are passing downs for the Broncos. This goes to the key of it all. The Broncos were predictable in their approach and Ortons, IMO, read of the plays.

I will agree, the OL play hampered Orton some of the time, it's not all on him, but that doesn't mean he was not designed with the proper three or five step drops to take advantage of the field.

I am also unconcerned with INT's for Orton. He gave up few overall and played at a high level when it concerned this. He didn't chuck passes without need or proper vision. He's a smart QB and I wouldn't dare question that.

Also, even with a high QBR that doesn't mean Orton wasn't making poor passes or was seeing the field in a limited basis. There is plenty of opportunity in this system to pad stats, and I feel I saw that without question. This is up for interpretation but i think third down conversion, red zone production, and Wins work in my favor when regarding stats and end of season cirumstances.

Do not get me wrong. I believe very stoutly that Orton is our best option and hope currently. Two years in he should now have a firm grasp on the system compared to last year and should produce accordingly. However I do believe his production and play was very far from perfect last year and if the Broncos and he himself want to win (like you pointed out, he himself said at the press conference) he has to address those issue head on.

[Lancane]

I don't believe there is a chance in hell of that. Maybe there are teams looking for
a proven QB, but the Broncos most certainly are not looking to jettison the only
proven QB they have.

I would venture to say that Orton is one of the most untradable players the
Broncos have for that reason . . . I didn't say one of the most talented (although
I believe the jury's still out on that one), but most untradable, simply because
he is, as I said, the only proven one at his position.

-----

I said it's possible even though unlikely, but I would not label him untradeable...I would not bet money on it either way, because if we can trade a Pro-Bowl Quarterback and we might trade a Pro-Bowl Wideout, then anyone is tradeable and that has done been proven the minute Cutler was gone. And it would depend a whole hell of alot on Quinn or Brandstater.

[topscribe]

I said it's possible even though unlikely, but I would not label him untradeable...I would not bet money on it either way, because if we can trade a Pro-Bowl Quarterback and we might trade a Pro-Bowl Wideout, then anyone is tradeable and that has done been proven the minute Cutler was gone. And it would depend a whole hell of alot on Quinn or Brandstater.

Yes, but remember, Cutler wanted out, and so does Marshall, reportedly (although
I think that is exaggerated by the media).

Orton, on the other hand, wants to stay, and for a long time. And, for now, he is
McDaniels' man. McD had averred to that, in no uncertain terms, and I believe him
from the resolute way he says it. He just spent a painful year training, culturing,
and orientating Orton and is entering a year he hopes to reap the harvest of his
efforts, IMO. So, while I agree no one is absolutely untradable, I still fully believe
Orton is among the most untradable.

-----

[topscribe]

Hey, I don't disagree with you most of the time topscribe.... well at least not completely. Let me comment properly though.

Even in our first 6 game wins the Broncos normally won on the merits of their defense. The Broncos offense not once showed the spark it did in 2008. Can that be because of relearning an entirely new system for new players.. yes? does it mean it's an excuse? no. Not in my opinion.

Let's also remember. Orton won game one on a fluke pass to Stokley with inflated stats and a poor third down conversion rate. Cleveland and Oakland are gimme's IMO. San Diego was won by ST and defensive sacks. Dallas was won by Marshall and defense. NE was a great game. Solid spread of the ball, and excellent play on both offense and defense.

Also so long as we are looking at stats, lets look at third down conversions in the last part of the season... that was 78/215 or about 36%. That's only slightly below the league average, but staying at that stat is.... average. Who in this league strives to be average? Also, the majority of those missed third down conversions came at the back half of the season. Additionally the majority of plays on third down (over 60%) are passing downs for the Broncos. This goes to the key of it all. The Broncos were predictable in their approach and Ortons, IMO, read of the plays.

I will agree, the OL play hampered Orton some of the time, it's not all on him, but that doesn't mean he was not designed with the proper three or five step drops to take advantage of the field.

I am also unconcerned with INT's for Orton. He gave up few overall and played at a high level when it concerned this. He didn't chuck passes without need or proper vision. He's a smart QB and I wouldn't dare question that.

Also, even with a high QBR that doesn't mean Orton wasn't making poor passes or was seeing the field in a limited basis. There is plenty of opportunity in this system to pad stats, and I feel I saw that without question. This is up for interpretation but i think third down conversion, red zone production, and Wins work in my favor when regarding stats and end of season cirumstances.

Do not get me wrong. I believe very stoutly that Orton is our best option and hope currently. Two years in he should now have a firm grasp on the system compared to last year and should produce accordingly. However I do believe his production and play was very far from perfect last year and if the Broncos and he himself want to win (like you pointed out, he himself said at the press conference) he has to address those issue head on.

I believe you display good sense and logic in just about everything you say
here, even that with which I disagree. I'm just presenting another side of it, is
all. We will be able to see with more certainty this next year when his plate is
set on the table, won't we?

So, with that, my friend, I'm on my way to my nightly meeting with the sandman.

G'night. :wave:

-----

[Mr D]

good presser... good competitive nature

[SOCALORADO.]

good presser... good competitive nature

Yeah. Jeez, i come back the next day and i realize that ive helped stir up a hornets nest!

[topscribe]

Yeah. Jeez, i come back the next day and i realize that ive helped stir up a hornets nest!

No, you helped to stir a discussion.

And I'll have to say it's been a pretty decent one. http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/Smilies/thdrink.gif

-----

[Northman]

No. I'm giving the guy a hard time because after he runs his route, and Orton is trying to scramble which he isn't very good at, Royal doesn't know what to do. Marshall is excellent and helping the QB out when the play breaks down, Royal, not so much.

All WR's run routes. If the offensive line can't form a pocket, the play breaks down, and WR's need to either make an adjustment on their route, or come back to help their QB.

Our offense this year didn't have the same timing it did last yeat when Royal was a rookie. It's one of the reasons why Royal wasn't an impact a lot of the time. When the QB is running for his life, he;s looking for a WR to help him. That's where Royal wasn't very good.


Dude, silk seriously. Orton doesnt scramble hardly at all. Cutler and Plummer scrambled far more than Orton ever has in his life. And again, ill throw that up to just experience on Royal's part.

[topscribe]

Dude, silk seriously. Orton doesnt scramble hardly at all. Cutler and Plummer scrambled far more than Orton ever has in his life. And again, ill throw that up to just experience on Royal's part.

My friend, you are overlooking the fact that Orton has played a total of one year
out of the last two on high ankle sprains. Go back and review the final KC game,
as his ankle apparently was healing. Orton can scramble . . . no, not like Elway
could, of course, but he can do it some . . .

-----

[Northman]

My friend, you are overlooking the fact that Orton has played a total of one year
out of the last two on high ankle sprains. Go back and review the final KC game,
as his ankle apparently was healing. Orton can scramble . . . no, not like Elway
could, of course, but he can do it some . . .

-----

Yea, i can scramble too. My point is Orton isnt very good at it and even when he tries he is slow as ****. He as a player is not designed to scramble and considering his injuries last year it made him even worse at a scrambling. But my point remains that Royal isnt going to break off the route if Orton is still in the pocket and that is what happened a majority of the time last year but Silk is trying to make it sound like the guy was running all over the field like Elway or Plummer. And going back to his injuries, it makes Orton a huge liability. Injuries have plagued him his entire career and although he is a tough guy and tries to play through them it still doesnt help the team as much as it should because he is just an average QB. Denver still needs to find a Qb with the "it" factor but who doesnt require wearing a bib to play for us.

[SOCALORADO.]

Yea, i can scramble too. My point is Orton isnt very good at it and even when he tries he is slow as ****. He as a player is not designed to scramble and considering his injuries last year it made him even worse at a scrambling. But my point remains that Royal isnt going to break off the route if Orton is still in the pocket and that is what happened a majority of the time last year but Silk is trying to make it sound like the guy was running all over the field like Elway or Plummer. And going back to his injuries, it makes Orton a huge liability. Injuries have plagued him his entire career and although he is a tough guy and tries to play through them it still doesnt help the team as much as it should because he is just an average QB. Denver still needs to find a Qb with the "it" factor but who doesnt require wearing a bib to play for us.

At the most minor pressure orton folds like a wet paper towel.
No one disputes this and hes never had the ability to scramble.
Occasionally he steps up into the pocket and looks for his 2 or 3
recieving options, buts its rare.
orton is a care taker, back up QB and nothing more. If he plays for
a team with a stellar defense, hes comparable to Dilfer at times.

[TXBRONC]

Yea, i can scramble too. My point is Orton isnt very good at it and even when he tries he is slow as ****. He as a player is not designed to scramble and considering his injuries last year it made him even worse at a scrambling. But my point remains that Royal isnt going to break off the route if Orton is still in the pocket and that is what happened a majority of the time last year but Silk is trying to make it sound like the guy was running all over the field like Elway or Plummer. And going back to his injuries, it makes Orton a huge liability. Injuries have plagued him his entire career and although he is a tough guy and tries to play through them it still doesnt help the team as much as it should because he is just an average QB. Denver still needs to find a Qb with the "it" factor but who doesnt require wearing a bib to play for us.

Our offensive line had some problems but wasn't nearly the problem some have made it out to be. As you said Orton isn't real mobile but you don't have to be in order to be good to great quarterback in this League. However, you do need to have good pocket presence and that's not something I see consistently in Orton. The game in K.C. is good example of that. Having high ankle sprains shouldn't keep a quarterback from knowing when to get rid of the ball.

[TXBRONC]

At the most minor pressure orton folds like a wet paper towel.
No one disputes this and hes never had the ability to scramble.
Occasionally he steps up into the pocket and looks for his 2 or 3
recieving options, buts its rare.
orton is a care taker, back up QB and nothing more. If he plays for
a team with a stellar defense, hes comparable to Dilfer at times.

He folds like a wet paper towel eh?

Bounty or Brawny? :lol:

[Northman]

Our offensive line had some problems but wasn't nearly the problem some have made it out to be. As you said Orton isn't real mobile but you don't have to be in order to be good to great quarterback in this League. However, you do need to have good pocket presence and that's not something I see consistently in Orton. The game in K.C. is good example of that. Having high ankle sprains shouldn't keep a quarterback from knowing when to get rid of the ball.

Exactly.

[topscribe]

Yea, i can scramble too. My point is Orton isnt very good at it and even when he tries he is slow as ****. He as a player is not designed to scramble and considering his injuries last year it made him even worse at a scrambling. But my point remains that Royal isnt going to break off the route if Orton is still in the pocket and that is what happened a majority of the time last year but Silk is trying to make it sound like the guy was running all over the field like Elway or Plummer. And going back to his injuries, it makes Orton a huge liability. Injuries have plagued him his entire career and although he is a tough guy and tries to play through them it still doesnt help the team as much as it should because he is just an average QB. Denver still needs to find a Qb with the "it" factor but who doesnt require wearing a bib to play for us.

Wearing a bib? :confused:

I'm not really concerned about Orton's injuries. Each ankle sprain was an
incident where other players landed on his legs. Any player would have come
away with sprains in those cases. And the finger dislocation, where the bone
protruded through the skin . . . I don't know how that could not have happened
to anybody's hand. It isn't as if he's always turning up with hamstring injuries.
That's "injury prone."

But regarding his scrambling, did you indeed see the final KC game? He did
show mobility, and good pocket presence. The defense pressure was just
overwhelming, but he showed the ability to deal with it.

Is Orton an "average" QB? I don't know what "average" is. But we have not
seen what he can do in "normal" circumstances, where he is healthy, playing
in a familiar situation, with familiar teammates, with good coaches . . . all at
one time.

I'm hoping we can see that this year. Then we can judge . . .

-----

[TimTebow15MVP]

Im sorry but they are right, When Orton scrambles it just looks so sluggish and slow like he shouldnt even be doing it. there were a few times last year where he scrambled and made some nice throws but we all know thats never gonna be consistant.

[topscribe]

Im sorry but they are right, When Orton scrambles it just looks so sluggish and slow like he shouldnt even be doing it. there were a few times last year where he scrambled and made some nice throws but we all know thats never gonna be consistant.

Did you miss the part about the high ankle sprains?

-----

[Northman]

Wearing a bib? :confused:

Ala Jay Cutler


I'm not really concerned about Orton's injuries. Each ankle sprain was an
incident where other players landed on his legs. Any player would have come
away with sprains in those cases. And the finger dislocation, where the bone
protruded through the skin . . . I don't know how that could not have happened
to anybody's hand.

I am. We've had other QB's in the past who were getting used to players, coaches, schemes, etc and dont have the injury bug like Kyle does. Again, this is something has plagued him for a long time and doesnt seem to be getting better. The guy is fragile and until he can stay healthy an entire season i will continue to view as such.


But regarding his scrambling, did you indeed see the final KC game? He did show mobility, and good pocket presence. The defense pressure was just overwhelming, but he showed the ability to deal with it.

I saw that game and games of his in the past. Every QB has some sort of mobility but he isnt going to fly down the field or escape pressure very often.


Is Orton an "average" QB? I don't know what "average" is.

I do.


I'm hoping we can see that this year. Then we can judge . . .

More than likely it will be much of the same from last year.

[SOCALORADO.]

He folds like a wet paper towel eh?

Bounty or Brawny? :lol:

http://www.strangenewproducts.com/uploaded_images/lemon-scented-paper-towels-702992.jpg

sparkle power!!

[topscribe]

Ala Jay Cutler

Jay Cutler? :confused:



I am. We've had other QB's in the past who were getting used to players, coaches, schemes, etc and dont have the injury bug like Kyle does. Again, this is something has plagued him for a long time and doesnt seem to be getting better. The guy is fragile and until he can stay healthy an entire season i will continue to view as such.Are you fragile? Do you think if a 300-pound behemoth pounced on your legs
that it might sprain your ankle? If a bone had popped through his skin, do you
think it might have popped through yours?

Yes, he has had some miserable luck with injuries the past two seasons. But
"fragile" to me is not being able to play. He played, anyway.


I saw that game and games of his in the past. Every QB has some sort of mobility but he isnt going to fly down the field or escape pressure very often.Neither is Brady or Manning. In fact, Orton is more mobile, when healthy, than
either of them. I'm still wait and see . . .



More than likely it will be much of the same from last year.Right. I'm sure you would like to be given the same consideration, wouldn't
you? Are you so pessimistic that you cannot admit if circumstances get better
production can, too? If Orton managed an 86.8 QBR (IIRC) despite all those
obstacles, you really think he can't improve on that if they are removed?

I believe you have stuck your head in the sand, my friend . . . ;)

-----

[Northman]

Jay Cutler? :confused:

Wow, that one really went over your head. Dont worry about it, its not really relevant to the discussion.





Are you fragile? Do you think if a 300-pound behemoth pounced on your legs that it might sprain your ankle? If a bone had popped through his skin, do you think it might have popped through yours?

I actually had it happen so no, im not fragile. Went out for one play, got back in and everything was fine.


Yes, he has had some miserable luck with injuries the past two seasons. But "fragile" to me is not being able to play. He played, anyway.

He did? Did he come back into the Skins game? What did he do? Throw on a Chris Simms Fathead only he forgot to put his brains back in? :lol:

I get what your saying but there's having some injuries here and there and then there's having them every other week. Im sorry, call it bad luck, call it poor circumstances, whatever. Fact is, he cant stay healthy and its a problem and a concern for me as a fan.




Neither is Brady or Manning. In fact, Orton is more mobile, when healthy, than either of them. I'm still wait and see . . .

Oh boy. I suppose if Orton could actually throw as well as them i wouldnt have anything to complain about. But alas, he is not so stupid stupid comparison on your part.


Right. I'm sure you would like to be given the same consideration, wouldn't you? Are you so pessimistic that you cannot admit if circumstances get better production can, too? If Orton managed an 86.8 QBR (IIRC) despite all those obstacles, you really think he can't improve on that if they are removed?

This team isnt built to allow him that luxury. This isnt the Baltimore Ravens of 2000. And it would take far too long to even get to that point.


I believe you have stuck your head in the sand, North . . .


Ah, here we go. Time for the insults. Awesome. Look, at the end of the day excuses are for losers. Period. And thats all you've done here is make excuses while at the same time bashing other players under the same circumstances. So before you start talking about people's heads in the sand take a long look in the mirror. :rolleyes:

[topscribe]

At the most minor pressure orton folds like a wet paper towel.
No one disputes this and hes never had the ability to scramble.
Occasionally he steps up into the pocket and looks for his 2 or 3
recieving options, buts its rare.
orton is a care taker, back up QB and nothing more. If he plays for
a team with a stellar defense, hes comparable to Dilfer at times.

You speak like a man who knows nothing of what he speaks.

Orton has had nothing but pressure the last two years. And still he has improved
each year . . . and without a "stellar" defense in either year. In 2008, Chicago
was #30 in pass defense. Last year, the Broncos were a sieve in rushing
defense.

And your comparison to Dilfer is asinine. Dilfer never had a 3,000 yard seaon
and never reached 60% completion in his entire 14-year career. In fact, in only
three of those years did he come close to that in yardage, and in only four did
he come close in percentage.

I think it's time to put the Dilfer comparison to rest . . .

-----

[TimTebow15MVP]

Did you miss the part about the high ankle sprains?

-----

When did he sprain his ankle? because im talking about early in the year also. Ortons not a guy that needs to be scrambling..... If anything he needs to learn how to slide in the pocket like peyton and brady does. guys who are not mobile like them need to learn how to slide in the pocket to buy an extra second or so. Orton didnt show me any of that last year. No sort of pocket presence. And another thing is his body strenght is weak, Once a guy lays a finger on him he goes down. Orton needs to hit the weight room harder than ever this off season.

[Lonestar]

I mentioned this in another thread, but don't be surprised if Orton is suddenly traded...even to the likes of Oakland as we get closer to the draft. Not saying that it will happen, but there are a lot of teams still looking for a proven quarterback, and if Campbell is a fairly hot commodity then Orton will be double that, he has much to prove to deserve a contract with us. But another team may be willing to go off statistics alone to get it done. Especially if Quinn is showing himself to be capable.

Just my two cents...


Lets see if I have this correct, Campbell is a fairly hot commodity, then Orton will be double that.

Yet he is not good enough for us to keep?

Perhaps that make sense to some, but I for one do not get it.

[topscribe]

I actually had it happen so no, im not fragile. Went out for one play, got back in and everything was fine.

Did you play pro ball? Not too many 300-pounders in high school or college, at
least until recently.



He did? Did he come back into the Skins game? What did he do? Throw on a Chris Simms Fathead only he forgot to put his brains back in? :lol:Seems a lot of your sayings are going over my head. I don't even know what
the hell you said here . . .



I get what your saying but there's having some injuries here and there and then there's having them every other week. Im sorry, call it bad luck, call it poor circumstances, whatever. Fact is, he cant stay healthy and its a problem and a concern for me as a fan.Every other week? Exaggerate much?

Yes, we will be hoping Orton can stay healthy this year. That would be nice. I'm
sure he feels the same way about it . . .



Oh boy. I suppose if Orton could actually throw as well as them i wouldnt have anything to complain about. But alas, he is not so stupid stupid comparison on your part.Do you think Orton throws poorly? 3,800 yards, 62.1% completion? No, those
figures are not quite up to theirs, but they played healthy in offensive schemes
and with teammates that were very familiar to them.

I'm not saying Orton will ever be at their level, but he is also not the "bum" you
are trying to paint.



Ah, here we go. Time for the insults. Awesome. Look, at the end of the day excuses are for losers. Period. And thats all you've done here is make excuses while at the same time bashing other players under the same circumstances. So before you start talking about people's heads in the sand take a long look in the mirror. :rolleyes:I was kidding, North. I thought we were friends. Shit. What the hell is with all
the thin skin around here? :tsk:


P.S. What players have I bashed? :confused:

And I have not been making excuses. Excuses are attempted reasons for failures.
I have been commending him for his successes despite his obstacles. Those are
not excuses.

But is there any reason to get all out of sorts over a football player?

-----

[Lonestar]

I said it's possible even though unlikely, but I would not label him untradeable...I would not bet money on it either way, because if we can trade a Pro-Bowl Quarterback and we might trade a Pro-Bowl Wideout, then anyone is tradeable and that has done been proven the minute Cutler was gone. And it would depend a whole hell of alot on Quinn or Brandstater.


It is would make sense IF Orton was whining about playing the offense or fro the coach.

If he were holding out of the OTA's but Orton has embraced the scheme and has been working harder to get better.


If jay would have at least given the scheme a chance and showed up for any of the offseason OTA's and sanctioned workout s then perhaps this conversation would be moot.

[topscribe]

When did he sprain his ankle? because im talking about early in the year also. Ortons not a guy that needs to be scrambling..... If anything he needs to learn how to slide in the pocket like peyton and brady does. guys who are not mobile like them need to learn how to slide in the pocket to buy an extra second or so. Orton didnt show me any of that last year. No sort of pocket presence. And another thing is his body strenght is weak, Once a guy lays a finger on him he goes down. Orton needs to hit the weight room harder than ever this off season.

Early in the year? Hmmm . . . let's see, that would include the first six games, right?

Okay, let's look what he did:

Game QBR

1. Cincy 100.7
2. Cle 83.5
3. Oak 92.1
4. Dal 117.5
5. NE 96.7
6. SD 115.4

Record: 6-0

Really, what else did he have to do?

-----

[Lonestar]

When did he sprain his ankle? because im talking about early in the year also. Ortons not a guy that needs to be scrambling..... If anything he needs to learn how to slide in the pocket like peyton and brady does. guys who are not mobile like them need to learn how to slide in the pocket to buy an extra second or so. Orton didnt show me any of that last year. No sort of pocket presence. And another thing is his body strenght is weak, Once a guy lays a finger on him he goes down. Orton needs to hit the weight room harder than ever this off season.



In order to slide up in the pocket there has to be some where to slide.

The inferior/interior OLINE has been pushed back into the slide "area" as well as the rushers from the outside.

So just where was he supposed to go.

The reason we are upgrading the OLG and Center is they stunk it up. LEts see if the newbies can stop the NT and DT from getting pushed back into the QB this coming year.

If at that time he does not step up when the outside pressure is there then YOU have a legit compliant.


As for the strength issue just maybe he was so busy learning the scheme and film time he did not spend as much time in the weight room as he could have, just so many hours in the days.

Josh commented on this very fact in one of his chats not to far back.

He said he expected KO to have more time this year, studying and weight room that he did not have the time to do last year.

You also forget he had to do all of this AFTER he was traded to DEN on 4/2/09. This year he has been able to study since the last game that was played last season.

[claymore]

I cant believe anyone thinks Orton is better than Jason campbell.

[Lonestar]

I cant believe anyone thinks Orton is better than Jason campbell.


Well you would have to think he was not pond scum to think that . Since you are one of those that think he is pond scum, everyone will automatically be better.

Clay what has this dude did to you for you to hate him so much.

[TimTebow15MVP]

Orton and cambell are equal. niether of them have a high ceiling lol. they are gonna be about what they were last year.

[Northman]

Did you play pro ball? Not too many 300-pounders in high school or college, at least until recently.

I didnt realize only pro players got hurt. Size doesnt matter as on every level of the game players will either be bigger or smaller. Considering i was 100 or so pounds lighter back then but still smaller than the defensive lines i faced puts it in a fair comparison.



Seems a lot of your sayings are going over my head. I don't even know what the hell you said here . . .

Half sarcasm, half truth. You said Orton played on his sprain but did not play the second half of the Skins game in which we were winning at halftime.



Every other week? Exaggerate much?

If you took that literally than i dont know what to tell you. But he gets hurt a lot.


Yes, we will be hoping Orton can stay healthy this year. That would be nice. I'm sure he feels the same way about it . . .

Im sure he does.


Do you think Orton throws poorly? 3,800 yards, 62.1% completion? No, those figures are not quite up to theirs, but they played healthy in offensive schemes and with teammates that were very familiar to them.

No, its not up to their standards and that is why he is average.


I'm not saying Orton will ever be at their level, but he is also not the "bum" you are trying to paint.

Buzzz, wrong. Ive never said he was a bum. I said he was average. Big difference.



I was kidding, North. I thought we were friends. Shit. What the hell is with all the thin skin around here? :tsk:

We are friends but lets be realistic here. Im trying to have a healthy debate for once without all the drama BS. I think we've had enough "kidding" crap to last us a lifetime on here. All it takes to start a flame war is that kind of garbage so maybe we should try a different approach since that particular method hasnt worked on this forum. Deal?

[claymore]

Well you would have to think he was not pond scum to think that . Since you are one of those that think he is pond scum, everyone will automatically be better.

Clay what has this dude did to you for you to hate him so much.

I love Orton. Campbell is a better QB though. I say this because Campbell has better accuracy, a better QB rating, more td's lest int's etc...

Dude is just better.

I think he has been thru alot more adversity as well.

JMO though.

[T.K.O.]

kyle is a cool customer....i thought his presser was great.
he has a great attitude and seems to be doing all he can to help the team get better.
he was put in a tough spot last year and there is a TON of pressure on him as he is living in the shadow of what many thought was the 2nd coming of elway.....and then there is still the long shadow of #7 himself.
i think he will surprise alot of folks this year.if he can stay healthy i expect over 4000 yds and 25-30 td's:salute:

[Northman]

Early in the year? Hmmm . . . let's see, that would include the first six games, right?

Okay, let's look what he did:

Game QBR

1. Cincy 100.7
2. Cle 83.5
3. Oak 92.1
4. Dal 117.5
5. NE 96.7
6. SD 115.4

Record: 6-0

Really, what else did he have to do?

-----

Would be great if the season ended after 6 games.

[Northman]

I love Orton. Campbell is a better QB though. I say this because Campbell has better accuracy, a better QB rating, more td's lest int's etc...

Dude is just better.

I think he has been thru alot more adversity as well.

JMO though.

Absolutely.

[topscribe]

I'll tell you what: I'm here to have some fun with people I think are my friends.

I won't take the chance of upsetting you anymore.

I just won't discuss it with you. Period.

I hope that helps . . . :)

-----

[Northman]

I'll tell you what: I'm here to have some fun with people I think are my friends.

I won't take the chance of upsetting you anymore.

I just won't discuss it with you. Period.

I hope that helps . . . :)

-----

On some things we can fun. Not this. Or Marshall. Or Cutler. :lol:

[topscribe]

I love Orton. Campbell is a better QB though. I say this because Campbell has better accuracy, a better QB rating, more td's lest int's etc...

Dude is just better.

I think he has been thru alot more adversity as well.

JMO though.

Campbell ..... Orton

QBR 86.4........ 86.8
TDs 20 .......... 21
INTs 15 .......... 12
YARDS 3,618 ... 3,848
COMP 64.5 ...... 62.1

Adversity:

Campbell played healthy with familiar teammates in a familiar scheme.
Orton played injured much of the year with new teammates in a new system.

Hmmm . . . make of it what you will . . . :coffee:

-----

[T.K.O.]

Early in the year? Hmmm . . . let's see, that would include the first six games, right?

Okay, let's look what he did:

Game QBR

1. Cincy 100.7
2. Cle 83.5
3. Oak 92.1
4. Dal 117.5
5. NE 96.7
6. SD 115.4

Record: 6-0

Really, what else did he have to do?

-----

a qoute from gray caldwell's article today

"With just about six months to prepare for last season, Orton put up career highs in nearly every passing statistic in 2009, and now joins the record books as one of two quarterbacks in Broncos history -- along with John Elway -- to record 10 games with a 90-plus passer rating in a single season."

[Northman]

Campbell ..... Orton

QBR 86.4........ 86.8
TDs 20 .......... 21
INTs 15 .......... 12
YARDS 3,618 ... 3,848
COMP 64.5 ...... 62.1

Adversity:

Campbell played healthy with familiar teammates in a familiar scheme.
Orton played injured much of the year with new teammates in a new system.

Hmmm . . . make of it what you will . . . :coffee:

-----


Campbell also played in a tougher division, worse Oline, and a coach who had his playcalling abilities taken away. But as you say, make it of it as you will.

[broncophan]

I'll tell you what: I'm here to have some fun with people I think are my friends.

I won't take the chance of upsetting you anymore.

I just won't discuss it with you. Period.

I hope that helps . . . :)

-----

Well.....you tried.....but when having qb discussions with someone who calls himself "BradyQuinnMVP"......chances are.......nothing positive will come out of it...:D

[Northman]

Well.....you tried.....but when having qb discussions with someone who calls himself "BradyQuinnMVP"......chances are.......nothing positive will come out of it...:D

Look buddy, you cant even spell "fan" right. You have no room to bust on anyone else. :lol::D

[broncophan]

Look buddy, you cant even spell "fan" right. You have no room to bust on anyone else. :lol::D

lol......I bet Orton can spell better than Campbell, Quinn.........or any other qb...

[Ravage!!!]

wow.. and I thought Campbell sucked horse crap... but now when you compare the numbers... I see Orton is worse than I thought

[Northman]

lol......I bet Orton can spell better than Campbell, Quinn.........or any other qb...

Since you put it that way.....

[topscribe]

a qoute from gray caldwell's article today

"With just about six months to prepare for last season, Orton put up career highs in nearly every passing statistic in 2009, and now joins the record books as one of two quarterbacks in Broncos history -- along with John Elway -- to record 10 games with a 90-plus passer rating in a single season."

. . . And Orton came extremely close to another one with an 89.1.

And he had four games with a 100+ QBR.

-----

[topscribe]

wow.. and I thought Campbell sucked horse crap... but now when you compare the numbers... I see Orton is worse than I thought

I see.

So, in his 16 years, Elway topped 3,800 yards only twice.

And it took him 11 years to reach as high as an 86.8 QBR.

In his first 10 years, Elway threw 20 or more TDs only once and as few as 12 INTs only twice.



So what does that make Elway in your mind?

-----

[T.K.O.]

Campbell also played in a tougher division, worse Oline, and a coach who had his playcalling abilities taken away. But as you say, make it of it as you will.

the broncos played the 3rd toughest schedule in the league....the skins.....not so much.
make of it what you will

[Northman]

the broncos played the 3rd toughest schedule in the league....the skins.....not so much.
make of it what you will

Kyle Orton is still average. Make of it what you will.

[SOCALORADO.]

. . . And Orton came extremely close to another one with an 89.1.

And he had four games with a 100+ QBR.

-----

All the while tossing 6 yard underhand passes to Marshall all game.

[topscribe]

All the while tossing 6 yard underhand passes to Marshall all game.

I dealt with facts. Documentable facts.

-----

[e-Lou-sive1]

ESPN - had an article on Orton being told he was going to be the starter by Josh Mc Daniels of course Orton welcomed Brady Quinn. He said he wasn't focused on competition for his quartwrback job but expects to improve in his second season in this system.

He said "whole new level "in two seperate sentences and that he expects his leadership and team direction to improve and to make better decisions. He will demand perfection from himself and other team mates.

On Eddie Royal, he said I just think a lot of it was I was new to him and he was new to me and we just kind of missed some some plays. Orton also said it would be great to hit some plays 25 or 30 yards down the field.

On Marshall and Scheffler he said that they were good for us and they made some big plays I hope that they come back next season.

I would comment on this article but I know that I would be labeled after reading all the friction caused by going for or against any player(s) that have a strong fan base.For the most part I believe we are all Denver Broncos fans and some of us have certain expectations about the team that not everyone can understand.

[SOCALORADO.]

I dealt with facts. Documentable facts.

-----

Oh Sorry.
Tossing poorly thrown 6 yard underhand passes, which almost fell to the ground had it not been for Marshalls incredible abilities to snag one handed, mind you, crap from the turf.

[T.K.O.]

Kyle Orton is still average. Make of it what you will.

average at the nfl level is pretty damn good......
make of it .....


http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1461902062467&id=171652aaa017e9fc0c192dbab62dfd7f&url=http%3a%2f%2fmedia.messiaenfestival.com%2fgall ery%2f8Qz4hx3yBL_1.jpg

[topscribe]

Oh Sorry.
Tossing poorly thrown 6 yard underhand passes, which almost fell to the ground had it not been for Marshalls incredible abilities to snag one handed, mind you, crap from the turf.

Did you have something intelligent to contribute to the board?

-----

[Northman]

average at the nfl level is pretty damn good......
make of it .....




Actually, its average. :lol:

[SOCALORADO.]

Did you have something intelligent to contribute to the board?

-----

Just presenting facts. Documentable facts.

[topscribe]

Just presenting facts. Documentable facts.

Okay. Time for Iggy.

I won't know what you are saying from here on out . . .

-----

[Ravage!!!]

All the while tossing 6 yard underhand passes to Marshall all game.

Just goes to show how little I take the QBR seriously. Its honestly, one of the dumbest statistics used in all of sports, yet people continue to quote it as if it really tells us anything. It doesn't at all.

Thts why so many people out there, are desperately looking for yet a new formula, one that actually takes situations into hand. Late games stat considerations and third down conversions all into one.

As it is... that lucky pass to Stokely... made like a 40 point difference in QB rating. Thats absurd.

[SOCALORADO.]

Actually, its average. :lol:

I dont think hes even average. He just fell into a system he ran in college, he had a great defense keep him in games for 6 games, and he is solid in his ability to get rid of the football as long as he doesnt have to throw a football farther than 20 yards, and its to Marshall, who will bail him out 95% of the time.

[T.K.O.]

Oh Sorry.
Tossing poorly thrown 6 yard underhand passes, which almost fell to the ground had it not been for Marshalls incredible abilities to snag one handed, mind you, crap from the turf.


you should probably take a few minutes and actually watch some footage from the broncos games last year before attempting to comment further.
if you are truly trying to make a point you are........failing.
fail·ing   /ˈfeɪlɪŋ/ Show Spelled[fey-ling] Show IPA
–noun
1.an act or instance of failing; failure: His failing is due to general incompetence.
2.a defect or fault; shortcoming; weakness: His lack of knowledge is a grave failing.
hotcarl ?

[Ravage!!!]

average at the nfl level is pretty damn good......
make of it .....


http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1461902062467&id=171652aaa017e9fc0c192dbab62dfd7f&url=http%3a%2f%2fmedia.messiaenfestival.com%2fgall ery%2f8Qz4hx3yBL_1.jpg

Thats the only people you compare NFL players too... other NFL players. Who cares if he's a good NFL QB compared to you or me?? No one.

But you are right, compared to us, he's damned good. Compared to those that make millions to be the best in the world........ not-so-much.

[topscribe]

Just goes to show how little I take the QBR seriously. Its honestly, one of the dumbest statistics used in all of sports, yet people continue to quote it as if it really tells us anything. It doesn't at all.

Thts why so many people out there, are desperately looking for yet a new formula, one that actually takes situations into hand. Late games stat considerations and third down conversions all into one.

As it is... that lucky pass to Stokely... made like a 40 point difference in QB rating. Thats absurd.

Rav, you don't like any stat that doesn't support your position. :lol:

-----

[Lonestar]

I love Orton. Campbell is a better QB though. I say this because Campbell has better accuracy, a better QB rating, more td's lest int's etc...

Dude is just better.

I think he has been thru alot more adversity as well.

JMO though.

for 2009
Less yards
Lower QB rating
Less TD's
More Picks
less +20 yard passes
less +40 yards passes.
less sacks.

Try again.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&season=2009&seasonType=REG&experience=null&tabSeq=0&qualified=true&Submit=Go

[SOCALORADO.]

Okay. Time for Iggy.

I won't know what you are saying from here on out . . .

-----

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LI20iydaNdc/SmqJI2fht_I/AAAAAAAABJ0/D8HAva6XYX4/s400/crying-baby-272x300.jpg

[Ravage!!!]

Rav, you don't like any stat that doesn't support your position. :lol:

-----

:lol: :lol: :lol: Bullshit

QB rating can make my case many times, if I wished them to. QBR is the dumbest stat used in sports.. period. I've always said it, and continue to say it

I just find it hilarious that some whom consider themselves football knowledgeable, still use it. :coffee:

[SOCALORADO.]

you should probably take a few minutes and actually watch some footage from the broncos games last year before attempting to comment further.
if you are truly trying to make a point you are........failing.
fail·ing   /ˈfeɪlɪŋ/ Show Spelled[fey-ling] Show IPA
–noun
1.an act or instance of failing; failure: His failing is due to general incompetence.
2.a defect or fault; shortcoming; weakness: His lack of knowledge is a grave failing.
hotcarl ?

As soon as you climb down out of the dingleberries on the tiny area in between ortons bunghole and his mini me, then you will see clearly the homer bus waiting for you.

[Northman]

Jason Campbell:

1st and goal: QBR- 79.2
2nd and goal: QBR- 114.8
3rd and goal: QBR- 110.5
4th and goal: 0

3-7 yds: QBR- 114.8
8-10 yds: QBR- 92.4
11+ yds: QBR- 135.7



Tom Brady:

1st and goal: QBR- 113.4
2nd and goal: QBR- 62.8
3rd and goal: QBR- 118.8
4th and goal: 0

3-7 yds: QBR- 81.9
8-10 yds: QBR- 90.6
11+ yds: QBR- 156.2



Kyle Orton:

1st and goal: QBR- 79.2
2nd and goal: QBR- 88.9
3rd and goal: QBR- 92.0
4th and goal: 0

3-7 yds: QBR- 39.6
8-10 yds: QBR- 89.0
11+ yds: QBR- 63.7

[Ravage!!!]

See.. If I wanted to use QBR to make my case, I would simply quote Northman and say "TOLD YA SO".....

[BigBroncLove]

This is one of those threads where you can just feel the love all around you. It's palpable and makes me want to eat ice cream and listen to "sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows"

:D

Just trying to lighten the mood all. I think you can still be awesome and rock it with civility. Can't say I always follow that myself, but I wish I would.....

So! now that everyone has ignored me... please continue.

[Lonestar]

Just goes to show how little I take the QBR seriously. Its honestly, one of the dumbest statistics used in all of sports, yet people continue to quote it as if it really tells us anything. It doesn't at all.

Thts why so many people out there, are desperately looking for yet a new formula, one that actually takes situations into hand. Late games stat considerations and third down conversions all into one.

As it is... that lucky pass to Stokely... made like a 40 point difference in QB rating. Thats absurd.


So your saying without that toss he would have had like a 42 QBR for the year?

[Lonestar]

Jason Campbell:

1st and goal: QBR- 79.2
2nd and goal: QBR- 114.8
3rd and goal: QBR- 110.5
4th and goal: 0

3-7 yds: QBR- 114.8
8-10 yds: QBR- 92.4
11+ yds: QBR- 135.7



Tom Brady:

1st and goal: QBR- 113.4
2nd and goal: QBR- 62.8
3rd and goal: QBR- 118.8
4th and goal: 0

3-7 yds: QBR- 81.9
8-10 yds: QBR- 90.6
11+ yds: QBR- 156.2



Kyle Orton:

1st and goal: QBR- 79.2
2nd and goal: QBR- 88.9
3rd and goal: QBR- 92.0
4th and goal: 0

3-7 yds: QBR- 39.6
8-10 yds: QBR- 89.0
11+ yds: QBR- 63.7

So I'm guessing that you are one of those that ravage is saying does not know about football. :salute:

[topscribe]

This is one of those threads where you can just feel the love all around you. It's palpable and makes me want to eat ice cream and listen to "sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows"

:D

Just trying to lighten the mood all. I think you can still be awesome and rock it with civility. Can't say I always follow that myself, but I wish I would.....

So! now that everyone has ignored me... please continue.

I enjoy debating with you, BBL.

You disagree like an adult . . .

-----

[Northman]

So I'm guessing that you are one of those that ravage is saying does not know about football. :salute:


Nah. Im one of those who say numbers dont tell the whole story which is what Rav has been kind of getting at from day one. :salute:

[Nomad]

http://cdn.ksk.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/ortonjack.gif

At least he has good taste in liquor!

[Northman]

Anyone can take stats and make it work in their favor just like i did. So you have to look at the complete package in ALL aspects not just for what works in your favor.

[topscribe]

I enjoy debating with you, BBL.

You disagree like an adult . . .

-----

So do you, North (well, you do get mad at me, apparently) and Rav, so don't think I'm talking about you. ;)

-----

[Northman]

So do you, North (well, you do get mad at me, apparently) and Rav, so don't think I'm talking about you. ;)

-----


Im not mad, maybe annoyed but then again JR and Tned get on my nerves too at times. Either way, the issue is past and i dont harp on it long. I know you mean well and im sure the feeling is mutual. :D

[Lonestar]

Anyone can take stats and make it work in their favor just like i did. So you have to look at the complete package in ALL aspects not just for what works in your favor.


I agree with that as I'm a firm believer that "figures never lie but liars always figure"

QBR is not the end all but folks that are far smarter than I am, think it is pretty comprehensive. Anyone that does not feel that way IMHO must believe that because it does not support their position they are a bad way to "rate QB's.

[Nomad]

good presser... good competitive nature

Yeah! It'll be a new season, everyone should be healed and may the best man win the job!!

[Ravage!!!]

So your saying without that toss he would have had like a 42 QBR for the year?

I honestly don't remember the exact number... but I know it was huge. Its a BIG number, for one pass. Not to mention a GIGANTIC number for a lucky pass. Thats the point.

But I believe the difference between that lucky catch and TD was something around 30+ points to the QBR

[Lonestar]

I honestly don't remember the exact number... but I know it was huge. Its a BIG number, for one pass. Not to mention a GIGANTIC number for a lucky pass. Thats the point.

But I believe the difference between that lucky catch and TD was something around 30+ points to the QBR

Perhaps for the game but not for the season.. that is just silly

[Ravage!!!]

I agree with that as I'm a firm believer that "figures never lie but liars always figure"

QBR is not the end all but folks that are far smarter than I am, think it is pretty comprehensive. Anyone that does not feel that way IMHO must believe that because it does not support their position they are a bad way to "rate QB's.

Actually.. those that really know mathmatics and numbers, do NOT take the QBR seriously at all. Simply do a simple googel search and read the thoughts on the QBR. Doesnt' ahve anything to do with "supporting" any arguments, it has PURELY to do with the lack of information it takes into consideration.

Its a TERRIBLE way to rate QBs.. but its easy for the TV audience...because it gives a number. There are even some 'experimental' formulas out there that make a lot more sense than the QBR. Just because that lousy formula is the one used, doesn't mean it actually tells the truth or works the best. It was jut the first one the NFL talking heads adopted.

Thats like saying the NCAA bowl game formula is the best, rather than just the 'one used.' Its not the best formula to be developed, but is the one used by the NCAA.

[Ravage!!!]

Perhaps for the game but not for the season.. that is just silly

I was purely talking about the game.

[topscribe]

I honestly don't remember the exact number... but I know it was huge. Its a BIG number, for one pass. Not to mention a GIGANTIC number for a lucky pass. Thats the point.

But I believe the difference between that lucky catch and TD was something around 30+ points to the QBR

Rav, there was one pass last season where Gaffney tipped the ball trying to catch
it, even though it was right into his hands. The ball careened off him into the arms
of a grateful defender.

That was an interception. Now, should we make the excuse that it shouldn't count
against the QB because of what happened? An INT, after all, makes a significant
difference in the QBR. So you count the lucky grabs, and you count the unlucky
tips and INTs. In the end, over the course of the season, it tends to even out.

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Rav, there was one pass last season where Gaffney tipped the ball trying to catch
it, even though it was right into his hands. The ball careened off him into the arms
of a grateful defender.

That was an interception. Now, should we make the excuse that it shouldn't count
against the QB because of what happened? An INT, after all, makes a significant
difference in the QBR. So you count the lucky grabs, and you count the unlucky
tips and INTs. In the end, over the course of the season, it tends to even out.

-----

Thank you for making yet another point, as to how the QBR is not a good system, or mathmatical equation, to purely judge how a QB played.

Thank you for making yet another example. :salute:

[topscribe]

Thank you for making yet another point, as to how the QBR is not a good system, or mathmatical equation, to purely judge how a QB played.

Thank you for making yet another example. :salute:

That does not prove anything. What numbers bring us is objectivity. You see them,
and it is what it is. Analyzing and interpreting what you observe on the field is
subjective. You see something, and you place your meaning to it. I see the same
thing and place mine on it. And they aren't always the same thing . . . in fact, I'm
convinced they aren't often the same thing.

So your wholesale rejection of statistics has no merit. I do go by what I see on
the field: I've reported it all along, only to be rejected by you. You see only
what you like to see, Rav. So do I. Even though I try to be unbiased, it is
humanly impossible to be totally so. That is where the numbers develop their
usefulness.

-----

[Ravage!!!]

That does not prove anything. What numbers bring us is objectivity. You see them,
and it is what it is. Analyzing and interpreting what you observe on the field is
subjective. You see something, and you place your meaning to it. I see the same
thing and place mine on it. And they aren't always the same thing . . . in fact, I'm
convinced they aren't often the same thing.

So your wholesale rejection of statistics has no merit. I do go by what I see on
the field: I've reported it all along, only to be rejected by you. You see only
what you like to see, Rav. So do I. Even though I try to be unbiased, it is
humanly impossible to be totally so. That is where the numbers develop their
usefulness.

-----
Sorry Top.. Fail.

Its not a wholesale rejection of statistics... nice try on the spin.

Of course numbers have their place, that doesn't take away from the fact that many (and I'm one) that find the QBR to be a ridiculous statistic. It doesn't tell how a QB played, but that is how many people continue to use the number. So many continue to bring up the QBR as a HUGE barometer to rate how a QB plays .... and its absurd. It truly is. It doesn't take much research to find all the problems with the QBR.

I've used number a lot. But that doesn't take away from the fact that the QBR is a ridiculous, made up, stat that is formulated by an inferior mathmatical formula that was put together PURELY to give a 'rating' for TV viewership. Its as simple as that.

[topscribe]

It doesn't tell how a QB played

Now, that surely looks like a rejection to me.

Sure it does. Of course, not completely, but it does go a long way. But every time
stats are brought up that counters your point, you attempt to shoot it down.

Spin it anyway you want, Rav, but that surely seems to me what you do. :whoknows:

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Now, that surely looks like a rejection to me.

Sure it does. Of course, not completely, but it does go a long way. But every time
stats are brought up that counters your point, you attempt to shoot it down.

Spin it anyway you want, Rav, but that surely seems to me what you do. :whoknows:

-----

YES.. I HAVE REJECTED THE QBR. How many times do I have to say that??? But that doesnt' mean I a wholesale rejection of STATISTICS. How is it possible for you to twist the same statement over and over again? Damn


Spin it anyway you want, Rav, but that surely seems to me what you do. :whoknows:


Sure it does, top, because you are just so..... observant. Considering I've read your observations on some of the play that occurs on the field, well...... :coffee:

[topscribe]

YES.. I HAVE REJECTED THE QBR. How many times do I have to say that??? But that doesnt' mean I a wholesale rejection of STATISTICS. How is it possible for you to twist the same statement over and over again? Damn




Sure it does, top, because you are just so..... observant. Considering I've read your observations on some of the play that occurs on the field, well...... :coffee:

Take it easy, Rav.

Wow, I've seemed to offend about everyone tonight. Best I log off for the night, I think.

Just isn't my night, I guess . . .


Talk atcha later, y'all :wave:

-----

[TXBRONC]

I love Orton. Campbell is a better QB though. I say this because Campbell has better accuracy, a better QB rating, more td's lest int's etc...

Dude is just better.

I think he has been thru alot more adversity as well.

JMO though.

I'm not sure I agree Campbell is a better quarterback but he has definintely been through more shit than Orton. BTW I do think Campbell has more upside.

[TXBRONC]

Nah. Im one of those who say numbers dont tell the whole story which is what Rav has been kind of getting at from day one. :salute:

I've been saying the same thing for years. If raw numbers are all you have to work with that one thing. But if you know the story behind the numbers then you have a much fuller picture of what the numbers actually mean.

[claymore]

I'm not sure I agree Campbell is a better quarterback but he has definintely been through more shit than Orton. BTW I do think Campbell has more upside.

Comparing their careers Campbell is the clear leader in every stat. I think we would have had alot better year if Campbell was here last year.

[Ravage!!!]

Comparing their careers Campbell is the clear leader in every stat. I think we would have had alot better year if Campbell was here last year.

I don't know man. I've watched a lot of Campbell, and the boy is just bad.

[claymore]

I don't know man. I've watched a lot of Campbell, and the boy is just bad.

Proof is in the pudding Rav.

I think its a great comparison too because they have both saw adversity, been in the league the exact same amount of time, and started around the same amount of games.

http://www.nfl.com/players/jasoncampbell/profile?id=CAM375235

http://www.nfl.com/players/kyleorton/profile?id=ORT716150

[topscribe]

Comparing their careers Campbell is the clear leader in every stat. I think we would have had alot better year if Campbell was here last year.

Not true, Clay. And the proof has already been posted.

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=942392&postcount=108

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=942492&postcount=146

-----

[claymore]

Not true, Clay. And the proof has already been posted.

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=942392&postcount=108

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=942492&postcount=146

-----

So you Isolated 6 games, and Jr posted his 2009 numbers? Thats cherry picking.

Im looking at their careers.

[CoachChaz]

I'd like to play this game too.



I think Bradlee Van Pelt has more upside and would be better than Kyle Orton.

[Northman]

So you Isolated 6 games, and Jr posted his 2009 numbers? Thats cherry picking.

Im looking at their careers.

I was scratching my head at that as well. You mentioned careers and they posted a handful of games and one year. :lol: classic!

[topscribe]

So you Isolated 6 games, and Jr posted his 2009 numbers? Thats cherry picking.

Im looking at their careers.

I referred you to the wrong post.

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=942422&postcount=120

It, too, is 2009. Which is as it should be. I'm not going to join in with the
stupidity of comparing what they did as rookies. Neither should you. This is the
"what have you done for me lately" league.

The comparisons are stupid, anyway. I responded only to your claims that
Campbell is better than Orton and to your trying statistically to compare their
careers.

Orton and Campbell played on different teams, in different offensive schemes,
with different supporting casts, in different divisions and even different
conferences. Orton was in a brand new one last year, all the way around:
scheme, players, coaches. Orton played through injuries.

So what does that prove? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. What would have
happened, had their roles been reversed - Orton there and Campbell here? You
don't know. I don't know.

We don't even know how good Orton can be under "normal" circumstances
because he has not yet had that opportunity, except for those six "isolated"
games (and even then he was playing with a dislocated finger on his throwing
hand). It's ridiculous to try to evaluate him until we do see that. I'm hoping that
will happen this year, and then I will make my judgment.

Despite what you and others think, I've never blown Orton's horn as to how
good I think he is because, frankly, I don't know. All I have done is to provide
documentation to refute asinine claims of "rag arm," "can't throw deep," "is a
statue," etc., etc. I have seen different. That has been my argument all along.

As to Orton's future, I don't know. And neither do you. You seem to think he's
a bum as a QB. You don't know that. He did relatively well last year under some
pretty tough circumstances. Now I'm eager to see how well he will do with
some of those difficulties and challenges removed.

-----

[topscribe]

I was scratching my head at that as well. You mentioned careers and they posted a handful of games and one year. :lol: classic!

See my most recent post. Try to be rational.

Thanks for laughing at me. Friend.

-----

[Northman]

See my most recent post. Try to be rational.

Thanks for laughing at me. Friend.

-----

You have to admit, when the guy points out entire careers and you guys use selective situations it does come across pretty funny. Thing is, i cant say whether or not Campbell is better than Orton but Campbell has had a crappy situation to work with in Wash. Orton has had to learn a new system but even with that the coaching in Denver was far better than what Jason got in Wash. I have a feeling whoever lands Campbell or takes him on will be quite happy with his production. As for Orton, i really dont care how many stats he puts up just so as long as we win games. Thats all that matters to me.

[claymore]

I referred you to the wrong post.

http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=942422&postcount=120

It, too, is 2009. Which is as it should be. I'm not going to join in with the
stupidity of comparing what they did as rookies. Neither should you. This is the
"what have you done for me lately" league.

The comparisons are stupid, anyway. I responded only to your claims that
Campbell is better than Orton and to your trying statistically to compare their
careers.

Orton and Campbell played on different teams, in different offensive schemes,
with different supporting casts, in different divisions and even different
conferences. Orton was in a brand new one last year, all the way around:
scheme, players, coaches. Orton played through injuries.

So what does that prove? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. What would have
happened, had their roles been reversed - Orton there and Campbell here? You
don't know. I don't know.

We don't even know how good Orton can be under "normal" circumstances
because he has not yet had that opportunity, except for those six "isolated"
games (and even then he was playing with a dislocated finger on his throwing
hand). It's ridiculous to try to evaluate him until we do see that. I'm hoping that
will happen this year, and then I will make my judgment.

Despite what you and others think, I've never blown Orton's horn as to how
good I think he is because, frankly, I don't know. All I have done is to provide
documentation to refute asinine claims of "rag arm," "can't throw deep," "is a
statue," etc., etc. I have seen different. That has been my argument all along.

As to Orton's future, I don't know. And neither do you. You seem to think he's
a bum as a QB. You don't know that. He did relatively well last year under some
pretty tough circumstances. Now I'm eager to see how well he will do with
some of those difficulties and challenges removed.

-----
I think Campbell has overcame more than Orton has. I dont know what the future holds, but I do know that Campbell is statisitically better than Orton.

I never said rag arm or anything to put Orton down. I just pointed to facts, and said according to these facts, Campbell is the superior QB of the 2.

[Ravage!!!]

How is it, that Orton get so much leway for changing systems and teams, yet.... other QBs don't? What has been so 'hard' about Orton's tenure in the league that we have to say that we look forward to when he has a 'normal' circumstances?

Seems when you are a QB that is destined to move around from team to team, you better be able to adapt to new systems quickly

[SOCALORADO.]

I think Campbell has overcame more than Orton has. I dont know what the future holds, but I do know that Campbell is statisitically better than Orton.

I never said rag arm or anything to put Orton down. I just pointed to facts, and said according to these facts, Campbell is the superior QB of the 2.

Its "wet noodle arm" em kay.

[T.K.O.]

How is it, that Orton get so much leway for changing systems and teams, yet.... other QBs don't? What has been so 'hard' about Orton's tenure in the league that we have to say that we look forward to when he has a 'normal' circumstances?

Seems when you are a QB that is destined to move around from team to team, you better be able to adapt to new systems quickly

i think he did adapt quickly (hence the 6-0 start ) but it requires the entire team to adapt and that didnt happen,combined with the ankle sprain it was a less than perfect environment to thrive .
i'm not making excuses for him i still believe he had a solid year (so do the coaches ).
but i think what top is saying is this season he will have a "firm" grasp on the system and a full year with the players.that being said we "should" see a big improvement from orton and many other players but you cant say....we've seen orton reach his potential any more than you can say we've seen all we are gonna see from moreno,royal etc...in this system.
they were all just learning and trying to gel as a team.it takes more than 6 mos.

[claymore]

I'd like to play this game too.



I think Bradlee Van Pelt has more upside and would be better than Kyle Orton.

I think Orton is far better than Van pelt.

[TXBRONC]

i think he did adapt quickly (hence the 6-0 start ) but it requires the entire team to adapt and that didnt happen,combined with the ankle sprain it was a less than perfect environment to thrive .
i'm not making excuses for him i still believe he had a solid year (so do the coaches ).
but i think what top is saying is this season he will have a "firm" grasp on the system and a full year with the players.that being said we "should" see a big improvement from orton and many other players but you cant say....we've seen orton reach his potential any more than you can say we've seen all we are gonna see from moreno,royal etc...in this system.
they were all just learning and trying to gel as a team.it takes more than 6 mos.

So Denver went because of Orton even though the rest team was lagging behind? That holds about as much water as a sieve. Most everyone elses acknowledges that had much to do even more to do with Denver starting 6-0 than the offense did.

[T.K.O.]

no.....what i said was even if a couple players catch on quickly,it takes an entire team to be on the same page to succeed.

[claymore]

no.....what i said was even if a couple players catch on quickly,it takes an entire team to be on the same page to succeed.

And.... 3rd down conversions!!!!!

[TXBRONC]

no.....what i said was even if a couple players catch on quickly,it takes an entire team to be on the same page to succeed.

Yeah I saw that, but before you even said that you started off by saying: "i think he did adapt quickly (hence the 6-0 start )." That looks to me like you're saying we 6-0 at least in part because Orton caught on quickly.

This makes on sense, we went 6-0 because everyone was catching on but when starting losing games it had to with it being new schemes. You can't have it both ways.

And there the excuse spained ankles. Sprained ankles doesn't equate to a concussion or a brain sprain.

[T.K.O.]

Yeah I saw that, but before you even said that you started off by saying: "i think he did adapt quickly (hence the 6-0 start )." That looks to me like you're saying we 6-0 at least in part because Orton caught on quickly.
This makes on sense, we went 6-0 because everyone was catching on but when starting losing games it had to with it being new schemes. You can't have it both ways.

And there the excuse spained ankles. Sprained ankles doesn't equate to a concussion or a brain sprain.

it definately has a part in going 6-0 if your qb knows the system.if he was confused we would have had our a$$es handed to us all year.
as for the ankle injury....yes it does hamper a qb's mobility and playmaking.
and i am in no way saying orton was the main reason we went 6-0 just as i'm saying he was'nt the main reason we finished 2-8.
you cant have it both ways either.
the fact is there are a ton of factors that go into the outcome of every game from injury to playcalling to talent on either side and even luck. so to try and pin a win or loss on one individual is absolutely assenine.
thats why i have never done it.
but orton was actually a bright spot in what could be considered an absolute total team chokefest !
our d gave up over 200 yds rushing to weak teams when the chips were down.
our running game was pathetic down the stretch (a tired rookie and an injured vet did,nt help) and the play of both the offensive and defensive lines was laughable.
that's why i dont agree with the bashing of 1 player be it kyle orton or any other player (alone)

[Lancane]

it definately has a part in going 6-0 if your qb knows the system.if he was confused we would have had our a$$es handed to us all year.
as for the ankle injury....yes it does hamper a qb's mobility and playmaking.
and i am in no way saying orton was the main reason we went 6-0 just as i'm saying he was'nt the main reason we finished 2-8.
you cant have it both ways either.
the fact is there are a ton of factors that go into the outcome of every game from injury to playcalling to talent on either side and even luck. so to try and pin a win or loss on one individual is absolutely assenine.
thats why i have never done it.
but orton was actually a bright spot in what could be considered an absolute total team chokefest !
our d gave up over 200 yds rushing to weak teams when the chips were down.
our running game was pathetic down the stretch (a tired rookie and an injured vet did,nt help) and the play of both the offensive and defensive lines was laughable.
that's why i dont agree with the bashing of 1 player be it kyle orton or any other player (alone)

Your argument just backed the one issue that most have against Orton, he can not shoulder the team. And it's part of the reason he will never truly be accepted as the quarterback by the majority of the fandom...yes, we're spoiled, but we have at the same time been dispoiled by the likes of Griese and Plummer, we had high hopes in Cutler and what we got was another Griese in Orton.

A quarterback will never be close to fully accepted in Denver, at least till he can do two things...shoulder the team in times of need and can throw deep and accurate more times then not.

[T.K.O.]

Your argument just backed the one issue that most have against Orton, he can not shoulder the team. And it's part of the reason he will never truly be accepted as the quarterback by the majority of the fandom...yes, we're spoiled, but we have at the same time been dispoiled by the likes of Griese and Plummer, we had high hopes in Cutler and what we got was another Griese in Orton.

A quarterback will never be close to fully accepted in Denver, at least till he can do two things...shoulder the team in times of need and can throw deep and accurate more times then not.

i agree,and the 3rd thing he will have to do is win a championship ( or 2)
but as you said we are spoiled ,and now we just have to look forward and go with what we have (like about 20 of the other 31 teams)
i just refuse to sit and whine about the situation. it is what it is and so far their is zero proof we are worse off at qb than we have been for over a decade.
so i'm just gonna watch and cheer for the broncos and hope that the people who have been put in a position to make a difference do exactly that !:salute:

[topscribe]

I think Campbell has overcame more than Orton has. I dont know what the future holds, but I do know that Campbell is statisitically better than Orton.

I never said rag arm or anything to put Orton down. I just pointed to facts, and said according to these facts, Campbell is the superior QB of the 2.

You don't know that, and there is no rightfully way you can say that.

You cannot compare two different people in two different situations. You just can't.

Buy you, Ravage, and Cane can continue to make your unfounded claims about
Orton. Maybe if you repeat it often enough, Divine Providence will intervene and
turn him into exactly how you want to see him.

As for myself, I'm tired of hearing them . . . :coffee:

-----

[claymore]

You don't know that, and there is no rightfully way you can say that.

You cannot compare two different people in two different situations. You just can't.

Buy you, Ravage, and Cane can continue to make your unfounded claims about
Orton. Maybe if you repeat it often enough, Divine Providence will intervene and
turn him into exactly how you want to see him.

As for myself, I'm tired of hearing them . . . :coffee:

-----

You are in complete denial. We base all sports off of statistical information. Campbell has been better statistically. That is a fact.

Thats not unfounded, Top. it is a FACT.

[BigBroncLove]

i agree,and the 3rd thing he will have to do is win a championship ( or 2)
but as you said we are spoiled ,and now we just have to look forward and go with what we have (like about 20 of the other 31 teams)
i just refuse to sit and whine about the situation. it is what it is and so far their is zero proof we are worse off at qb than we have been for over a decade.
so i'm just gonna watch and cheer for the broncos and hope that the people who have been put in a position to make a difference do exactly that !:salute:

I agree with this.... well mostly.

I can't say we are better off at the QB position then we have for the last decade. I just don't feel like that personally.

I do agree that the situation is what it is. I don't feel you have to support the situation simply because it exists. Not at all. Every fan has a right to look at each player and come to the conclusion on whether they want to support them or not. Honestly some of my favorite fans at games are the ones who heckle their own players. Despite being funny it shows a passion for their team and the game.

However, for me personally, I would prefer to look at a guy like Orton and say, "These are the things I don't like about his play and I want to see him improve on those things in season 2 with the Broncos." as opposed to simply stating that he is the type of player unable to overcome those issues. He very well may be a bad player and then the people can say, "Ha! told ya so!" but I just don't tend to label a player a certain way until I have had at minimum, two seasons to observe them in the environment we are judging them on (i.e. with the Broncos). After all, there are more then enough stories of cast offs from other teams that become top players when given the chance elsewhere.

Honestly though, if this team, it's players, and the coach want to quiet any doubt or discontent they need to back it up with Wins. You want to shut people up in this league that's what you have to do, until then critical thinking on every aspect of the game is fair game IMO.

[Lancane]

You don't know that, and there is no rightfully way you can say that.

You cannot compare two different people in two different situations. You just can't.

Buy you, Ravage, and Cane can continue to make your unfounded claims about
Orton. Maybe if you repeat it often enough, Divine Providence will intervene and
turn him into exactly how you want to see him.

As for myself, I'm tired of hearing them . . . :coffee:

-----

No one said you had to listen Top! ;)

I dislike Orton, not as a person...as far as his character goes, he is better then Griese, Plummer and a load of others. But it's there and I don't believe he has the ability to be more then a downfall piece in this chess game of McDaniels' which will lead to us rebuilding once more, once he loses his job...and he is getting closer to that outcome rather then a championship, he believes that philosophy is better then talent, and that held true in the old NFL, but in this day and age - an untalented roster makes you the Cleveland Browns!...lol.

We can all argue this point or that point, fact is Top that what I said holds very true...Orton will never fully be accepted by the majority of the fandom, even if he won us a world championship (Remember Plummer) and he was closer then any since Elway. We want what we want, while some are happy to sip tap water...others still want to sip wine!

[Lonestar]

I was scratching my head at that as well. You mentioned careers and they posted a handful of games and one year. :lol: classic!

Please show me in this post where Clay mentioned careers.



I love Orton. Campbell is a better QB though. I say this because Campbell has better accuracy, a better QB rating, more td's lest int's etc...

Dude is just better.

I think he has been thru alot more adversity as well.

JMO though.

for 2009
Less yards
Lower QB rating
Less TD's
More Picks
less +20 yard passes
less +40 yards passes.
less sacks.

Try again.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&season=2009&seasonType=REG&experience=null&tabSeq=0&qualified=true&Submit=Go

Sorry North But I was responding to this post and this post alone. Perhaps he had mentioned it before, but I was not around when he did. Had a mini Vacation the past few days.

And EVEN if he did it was not implied whatsoever in this post.

I thought he was discussing this past year so posted numbers from then.

[topscribe]

You are in complete denial. We base all sports off of statistical information. Campbell has been better statistically. That is a fact.

Thats not unfounded, Top. it is a FACT.

That is so funny. When I use stats, the response I get is that they are useless.
Now, you are telling me I'm in denial because I try to educate you on the factors
involved with stats. The only way statistical comparisons are useful is when the
objects you are comparing are subject to the same factors. Orton and Campbell
played on two different teams, in two different divisions, in two different schemes,
for two different coaching staffs, with entirely different supporting casts, against
different opponents down the line.. Now, my 10 hours of postgraduate statistics
(which I aced, BTW) tell me that this will not make for anything close to a valid
comparison.

So go ahead and make your unfounded claims and predictions and then tell me
I'm in denial because I say it does not make statistical sense. You are not the
first person who does not know what he's talking about to tell me I don't know
what I'm talking about . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Please show me in this post where Clay mentioned careers.



Sorry North But I was responding to this post and this post alone. Perhaps he had mentioned it before, but I was not around when he did. Had a mini Vacation the past few days.

And EVEN if he did it was not implied whatsoever in this post.

I thought he was discussing this past year so posted numbers from then.

Even were the statistics applicable, this past year would be all that is relevant. As
I said before, I don't care what they did as rookies, and I don't believe anybody
in football gives a hoot, either. How good they are now cannot be determined
by what they did two or three years ago. It is how they are doing now. That is
the only way to tell how they are doing now . . .

------

[Lonestar]

Your argument just backed the one issue that most have against Orton, he can not shoulder the team. And it's part of the reason he will never truly be accepted as the quarterback by the majority of the fandom...yes, we're spoiled, but we have at the same time been dispoiled by the likes of Griese and Plummer, we had high hopes in Cutler and what we got was another Griese in Orton.

A quarterback will never be close to fully accepted in Denver, at least till he can do two things...shoulder the team in times of need and can throw deep and accurate more times then not.



When I was reading this I came to another conclusion when you were comparing QB' to Griese My initial thought was cutler the head case part of Griese not the weak armed part. Actually no arm after his shoulder was damaged. the ultimate dink and dunker.


Unlike you Rav I do not believe you have to have a strong arm to win in the NFL.

I suspect we will see longer patterns run this coming year IF we fix the porus Oline and if they can actually develop a running game. By that I mean being able to pick up third and short ANY WHERE on the field. Most importantly inside the 5 yard line.

Once harris went down last year I do not think any QB could have salvaged the year. Also think that prior to the that Hamilton and Casey did not help matters all that much either.

Lets see what happens once we have decent protection and run blocking. Then if KO or BQ can't do the job I'll join you.

[TXBRONC]

it definately has a part in going 6-0 if your qb knows the system.if he was confused we would have had our a$$es handed to us all year.
as for the ankle injury....yes it does hamper a qb's mobility and playmaking.
and i am in no way saying orton was the main reason we went 6-0 just as i'm saying he was'nt the main reason we finished 2-8.
you cant have it both ways either.
the fact is there are a ton of factors that go into the outcome of every game from injury to playcalling to talent on either side and even luck. so to try and pin a win or loss on one individual is absolutely assenine.
thats why i have never done it.
but orton was actually a bright spot in what could be considered an absolute total team chokefest !
our d gave up over 200 yds rushing to weak teams when the chips were down.
our running game was pathetic down the stretch (a tired rookie and an injured vet did,nt help) and the play of both the offensive and defensive lines was laughable.
that's why i dont agree with the bashing of 1 player be it kyle orton or any other player (alone)

In that 2-8 is when Orton threw 11 of his 12 interceptions.

When did I say that Orton's injuries didn't effect his mobility or playmaking abilitly? That in and of itself is a different issue. What I said is that it didn't effect his ability to think and still don't ankel injuries would have effected his ability to remember the offense.

I don't put all the blame on him neither do I think it's fair to call people bashers because they point the short comings in Orton's game.

[Lonestar]

Just as mike believed that all things could be cured with a great offense and let the rest of the team D and ST manage to get by.

For the most part Chicago was much the other way with D and ST winning games and allowed the O to make do with lesser talent surrounding a QB.

As for WAS who the hell knows what Daniel thought.

IMHO there has not been a coherent plan there since he bought the club.

So trying to compare the historical stats on different QB's, schemes, climate, divisions is a fallacy IMO.

does anyone ever really wonder if Manning would have been in another division would eh have become the dominant QB that he was/is.

There has not been much competition in that division since he was drafted.

Had he went to BUF would he have the numbers he does today.

Just thinking out loud.

[topscribe]

In that 2-8 is when Orton threw 11 of his 12 interceptions.

When did I say that Orton's injuries didn't effect his mobility or playmaking abilitly? That in and of itself is a different issue. What I said is that it didn't effect his ability to think and still don't ankel injuries would have effected his ability to remember the offense.

I don't put all the blame on him either do I think it's fair to call people bashers because they point the short comings in Orton's game.

I think you meant "neither do I think it's fair"?

And I agree, as long as what they point out is legitimate. "Rag arm," "can't pass
more than 15 yards," "is a statue" are not legitimate.

Regarding the last half of the season, I do believe some of it is on Orton. It just
seemed to me that he began to press a bit, perhaps trying to make up for the
decline in the defense and running game.

A quarterback just cannot get away with trying to play beyond his abilities, and
maybe Orton did a little bit of that. Every once in a generation or so, you see
an Elway who can force things. Everyone else has to let the game come to him.

I'm hoping that the running game and defense will improve to the point where
Orton can play within himself. When he can do that, we have a winning QB.

-----

[claymore]

That is so funny. When I use stats, the response I get is that they are useless.
Now, you are telling me I'm in denial because I try to educate you on the factors
involved with stats. The only way statistical comparisons are useful is when the
objects you are comparing are subject to the same factors. Orton and Campbell
played on two different teams, in two different divisions, in two different schemes,
for two different coaching staffs, with entirely different supporting casts, against
different opponents down the line.. Now, my 10 hours of postgraduate statistics
(which I aced, BTW) tell me that this will not make for anything close to a valid
comparison.

So go ahead and make your unfounded claims and predictions and then tell me
I'm in denial because I say it does not make statistical sense. You are not the
first person who does not know what he's talking about to tell me I don't know
what I'm talking about . . .

-----
Using that logic, only God can compare players. Im not God so I go off of stats.

Stats tell me Orton is nowhere near as good as Campbell.

I will pray to God tonight and ask him if he thinks Orton is better than Campbell.

[topscribe]

Using that logic, only God can compare players. Im not God so I go off of stats.

Stats tell me Orton is nowhere near as good as Campbell.

I will pray to God tonight and ask him if he thinks Orton is better than Campbell.

That is not logic. That is fact. Statistical comparisons are worthless unless the
same factors apply to both objects under comparison. Sorry - believe what you
want - but it is what it is.

However, if you really want to pursue the ridiculous and compare stats, here is
what they say (but again, we can't rely on this because the factors are not
uniform):

2005: Campbell had better stats than Orton
2006: N/A
2007: N/A
2008: Campbell had better stats than Orton
2009: Orton had better stats than Campbell

Therefore, according to the most recent stats, Orton has the advantage. And
recent is what counts because present games are not played in the past.

Nonetheless, as I said, none of this is valid, anyway . . .

-----

[rcsodak]

Orton needs to get better, and so does Royal for that matter.,

Royal was easily the biggest disappointment for Denver last year, and if he doesn't step up his game he isn't going to be more than a #3/#4 WR option on any team in the NFL.

Shanny has him squarely in his sights.

He's never wanted BM. It's Royal all the way.

[rcsodak]

How does Royal go from such a prolific and incedibly talented route runner, in an offense tailored for him, to just a ghost in one season?

I believe it's called "tape". :listen:

Opponents watched it. Evidently he didn't.

[rcsodak]

Yeah, Ryan Leaf had awesome college highlights, too. :coffee:

What's that have to do with the Chicago Bears? :coffee:

[topscribe]

Yeah, Ryan Leaf had awesome college highlights, too. :coffee:

So did Peyton Manning and John Elway.

So what's your point? :coffee:

-----

[Ravage!!!]

So did Peyton Manning and John Elway.

So what's your point? :coffee:

-----

His point was simple... and correct.

Pulling up a highlight film of Orton in college means squat. It means and shows nothing. Ryan Leaf had a fantastic college career and many considered him to be a better option to draft than Manning. So his 'college' highlight reel means diddly.

Hence, showing a highlight reel of Orton in college, doesn't really prove anything at all.

I know you didn't need that explained...but since you were choosing to be a wise-acre.. ... :coffee:

[topscribe]

His point was simple... and correct.

Pulling up a highlight film of Orton in college means squat. It means and shows nothing. Ryan Leaf had a fantastic college career and many considered him to be a better option to draft than Manning. So his 'college' highlight reel means diddly.

Hence, showing a highlight reel of Orton in college, doesn't really prove anything at all.

I know you didn't need that explained...but since you were choosing to be a wise-acre.. ... :coffee:

I don't know why people choose to salute smart-ass remarks such as this.

-----

[TXBRONC]

I don't know why people choose to salute smart-ass remarks such as this.

-----

The only line in Rav's post that could be considered being a smart-ass is the last line imho.


Interestingly, when one of your friends is a smart ass you have given them high fives on more than one occassion and you have also received high fives for smart-ass posts. :tsk:

[e-Lou-sive1]

Press conference article on Orton featured onbleacherreport.com this morning stating that Orton should be worried about the competition from Quinn and not ignore it.

Also on SportsNation last night they had a segment BS or not and had a meter that rated the BS level on athletes comments ,they showed Orton's press conference where he said he welcomed anyone Josh McDaniels brings in and that he didn't think that Quinn's hiring jeopardizes his job.Of course the BS meter was high and Orton was placed in "Liar Rehab" along with Donovan McNabb's comment about facing the Eagles during the regular season..

Colin for sportsnation said If I were told by the station we are bring in another person we thought would make a good host but not to worry.I would be very worried because I know there questioning my performance and not take it lightly.

[broncofaninfla]

I blame Royals decline on Mcd's offensive schemes and game planning.

[claymore]

That is not logic. That is fact. Statistical comparisons are worthless unless the
same factors apply to both objects under comparison. Sorry - believe what you
want - but it is what it is.

However, if you really want to pursue the ridiculous and compare stats, here is
what they say (but again, we can't rely on this because the factors are not
uniform):

2005: Campbell had better stats than Orton
2006: N/A
2007: N/A
2008: Campbell had better stats than Orton
2009: Orton had better stats than Campbell

Therefore, according to the most recent stats, Orton has the advantage. And
recent is what counts because present games are not played in the past.

Nonetheless, as I said, none of this is valid, anyway . . .

-----

I cant believe how stubborn you are being. You are so blatantly wrong its silly.

Whatever. King Ankle sprain is the greatest.

[SOCALORADO.]

I cant believe how stubborn you are being. You are so blatantly wrong its silly.

Whatever. King Ankle sprain is the greatest.

King "HIGH" ankle sprain.
Lets keep this civil and accurate.

[TXBRONC]

King "HIGH" ankle sprain.
Lets keep this civil and accurate.

Well all I've got to say to that is: "Qwinn will start week 1." :laugh:

Damn now you have me saying it. :tsk:

[SOCALORADO.]

Well all I've got to say to that is: "Qwinn will start week 1." :laugh:

Damn now you have me saying it. :tsk:

And you know this!:lol:

[Zweems56]

Well all I've got to say to that is: "Qwinn will start week 1." :laugh:

Damn now you have me saying it. :tsk:

I find your lack of faith in Brandstarter...... Disturbing.

[SOCALORADO.]

I find your lack of faith in Brandstarter...... Disturbing.

Brandstater doesnt get Claymore all hot and bothered like Qwinn does.

[TXBRONC]

I find your lack of faith in Brandstarter...... Disturbing.

That's because I've been brain washed by Socal. :D

[Ravage!!!]

I find your lack of faith in Brandstarter...... Disturbing.

:lol: :lol:

[topscribe]

I cant believe how stubborn you are being. You are so blatantly wrong its silly.

Whatever. King Ankle sprain is the greatest.

I cannot believe your apparent shortcomings in reading comprehension.

Where am I wrong? That you cannot statistically compare two different subjects
unless the comparison involves the same factors? Is that where you think I am
wrong? And I am stubborn?

Wow, Clay. You want to fly in the face even of basic mathematics. And I am
stubborn.

*Whew* :tsk:

-----

[T.K.O.]

breaking news......kyle orton says "brady queen don't scare me none":D

[SOCALORADO.]

That's because I've been brain washed by Socal. :D

"And now, your highness, we will discuss the location of your hidden rebel base...”

[topscribe]

The only line in Rav's post that could be considered being a smart-ass is the last line imho.


Interestingly, when one of your friends is a smart ass you have given them high fives on more than one occassion and you have also received high fives for smart-ass posts. :tsk:

Yes, you and JR go back a long way in that, don't you? And, from my perspective,
it originates from your personal allusions to him. Just as you have been attacking
me personally in this thread.

And regarding your "imho," I haven't seen many humble opinions out of you . . .

-----

[TXBRONC]

Yes, you and JR go back a long way in that, don't you?

And regarding your "imho," I haven't seen many humble opinions out of you . . .

-----

:lol: In this case it's "In my honest opinion."

[TXBRONC]

"and now, your highness, we will discuss the location of your hidden rebel base...”

never!

[TXBRONC]

Yes, you and JR go back a long way in that, don't you? And, from my perspective,
it originates from your personal allusions to him. Just as you have been attacking
me personally in this thread.

And regarding your "imho," I haven't seen many humble opinions out of you . . .

-----

You have absolutely no room talk. If you are challenged in the least bit you go on the attack.

[topscribe]

You have absolutely no room talk. If you are challenged in the least bit you go on the attack.

It's funny . . . I don't see my name anywhere in the OP.

Is this thread going to be your attacking me and my defending myself from here on out?

:focus:

-----

[Zweems56]

It's funny . . . I don't see my name anywhere in the OP.

Is this thread going to be your attacking me and my defending myself from here on out?

:focus:

-----

No, it won't be.

Because this thread is now a Gore thread.

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Science/Images/al-gore-thumbs-up.jpg

[topscribe]

No, it won't be.

Because this thread is now a Gore thread.

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Science/Images/al-gore-thumbs-up.jpg

:faint:

-----

[claymore]

I cannot believe your apparent shortcomings in reading comprehension.

Where am I wrong? That you cannot statistically compare two different objects
unless the comparison involves the same factors? Is that where you think I am
wrong? And I am stubborn?

Wow, Clay. You want to fly in the face even of basic mathematics. And I am
stubborn.

*Whew* :tsk:

-----
You are taking a basic argument that has been backed up by facts, and changing the argument using your rules because you are wrong.

You look silly trying to back up Orton with your grad school class in statistics (which you aced).

[underrated29]

You would love this.....

Went to my moms and did a little WII bowling. She has never done it before, and the way she bowles with the WII is............


THE SHORYUKEN!!!


I took some pictures of it. Sadly I am too computer retarded to post them. But I LOLd big time and thought of your sig when she did. Just thought you would appreciate that.. Ok, Carry on.

[topscribe]

You are taking a basic argument that has been backed up by facts, and changing the argument using your rules because you are wrong.

You look silly trying to back up Orton with your grad school class in statistics (which you aced).

Who says I am trying to back up Orton? I provided some basic statistics principles.
That is all I did. I made the statement that comparison of two different subjects
(in this case, quarterbacks) using different factors for each cannot make a valid
comparison. Why do you persist in arguing against that? That is not debatable:
It is called axiom. How is that backing up Orton?

Wow, Clay . . . you've gone over the top. :tsk:

-----

[turftoad]

Lets keep this thread on topic please there fellers. THX

[claymore]

Who says I am trying to back up Orton? I provided some basic statistics principles.
That is all I did. I made the statement that comparison of two different subjects
(in this case, quarterbacks) using different factors for each cannot make a valid
comparison. Why do you persist in arguing against that? That is not debatable:
It is called axiom. How is that backing up Orton?

Wow, Clay . . . you've gone over the top. :tsk:

-----

Nothing can ever be proven or disproven with your argument.

[topscribe]

Nothing can ever be proven or disproven with your argument.

You are getting closer now: Indeed, nothing can be proven in this case, using the factors at hand.

However, that is not an argument. That is an axiom, a fact, as I said.

-----

[claymore]

You are getting closer now: Indeed, nothing can be proven in this case, using the factors at hand.

However, that is not an argument. That is an axiom, a fact, as I said.

-----

Which is a weak ass argument that you continue to use. I understood it the first time.

Losing an argument and saying "It cant be proven" is weak.

[Lonestar]

Repeating the same old comments. Rag arm, can't throw a pass farther than 20 yards, unable to move, ETC ETC will not make them come true regardless how many times they are repeated.

Let's give the guy a chance to prove or DISprove the comments.

Right now he is our starting QB we may or may not draft a QB if so he will be a backup to one or more of TB, KO, or BQ.

If and when KO falters then by all means say I told you so. Until then NO ONE is changing their minds on him TB or Quinn.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

[SOCALORADO.]

Repeating the same old comments. Rag arm, can't throw a pass farther than 20 yards, unable to move, ETC ETC will not make them come true regardless how many times they are repeated.

Let's give the guy a chance to prove or DISprove the comments.

Right now he is our starting QB we may or may not draft a QB if so he will be a backup to one or more of TB, KO, or BQ.

If and when KO falters then by all means say I told you so. Until then NO ONE is changing their minds on him TB or Quinn.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

You forgot "wet noodle arm".
Just sayin.

[Ravage!!!]

Doesn't mean I can't say he sucks.

As said, no one is going to change each other's mind. But if we don't talk about opinions, and all we do is play the "lets wait and see" on everything..... this board would be boring and dead.

Who do you guys think we will draft ... "lets wait and see"

Do you think that injury will hurt our team? "lets wait and see"

Man, that player sucked in the first half, should we bench him? "Lets wait and see"

:yawn:

On a side note:
I think its pretty well understood that TB isn't even in the discussion. I mean, he'll be lucky to make the practice squad..

[Zweems56]

You would love this.....

Went to my moms and did a little WII bowling. She has never done it before, and the way she bowles with the WII is............


THE SHORYUKEN!!!


I took some pictures of it. Sadly I am too computer retarded to post them. But I LOLd big time and thought of your sig when she did. Just thought you would appreciate that.. Ok, Carry on.

That's absolutely amazing. The second that NFLN has Rodgers on, I'm going to suggest via twitter to Eisen to ask him whether or not he had intentionally did a shoryuken.

[topscribe]

Which is a weak ass argument that you continue to use. I understood it the first time.

Losing an argument and saying "It cant be proven" is weak.

I repeat: It is not an argument. It is a fact.

A fact cannot be any kind of argument, let alone a "weak ass" argument.

Give it up, Clay.

-----

[claymore]

I repeat: It is not an argument. It is a fact.

A fact cannot be any kind of argument, let alone a "weak ass" argument.

Give it up, Clay.

-----

Whatever. :rolleyes: