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r8rh8r
04-15-2008, 12:06 PM
There were a pair of articles published today on Denver's backfield and Selvin Young. The first was via Mile High Report:

Should Selvin Young be the Starter? (http://www.milehighreport.com/story/2008/4/14/155543/599)

In this article, the author notes that Selvin Young has among the highest yards per touches in the NFL. The article also counters arguments such as "well, he's a third down back" and "he lacks ideal size."

Here's a contrary article at my blog:

Signalizing Selvin Young's Success (http://www.rockymountainfever.net/2008/04/signalizing-selvin-youngs-success.html)

This article argues that Denver's biggest deficiency is in the power running game. It notes that our stuff rate and success percentage were both terrible, which deviates from our historical production. Selvin Young was a long bright spot in our running game: his 14 plays for 10+ yards were a big reason why we ranked 6th in the league in 10+ yard plays.

Recently we exhaustively discussed the pass protection and blitz protection. We've gone round and round as to whether Denver ought to draft a lineman with the 12th overall pick. Many of you have heard me argue that Rashard Mendenhall would be an ideal pick at #12. More of you seem to think that Jonathan Stewart is a better pick.

I argue that running back is--after defensive tackle--the principle draft need for the Broncos. Specifically, we need someone who will excel in the power running game. You could also argue that we need a third down back who--like Selvin Young--can break off the big run and pick up the blitz. In the former role, a player like Mendenhall is arguably the best player available. In the latter role, Stewart is unquestionably the guy.

I want to hear what you think about the following:

(a) Is Selvin Young the long term solution at RB?
(b) How high should Denver target a RB in this year's draft?
(c) Who should Denver target? Why?

BOSSHOGG30
04-15-2008, 12:11 PM
Young is an excellent outside the tackles runner and Henry is an excellent inside the tackles runner.... the only question is health and age. Denver will eventually need a replacement for Henry. Henry is 30 years old and his time is running out. Denver will need an inside runner that can come in and replace him.

Today's NFL you pretty much need two good runningbacks and it helps to have a change of pace.

Young = outside runner
Henry = expendable
Andre Hall is a very good back up.

We just need that guy to replace Henry wether it be this year or next

lex
04-15-2008, 12:14 PM
There were a pair of articles published today on Denver's backfield and Selvin Young. The first was via Mile High Report:

Should Selvin Young be the Starter? (http://www.milehighreport.com/story/2008/4/14/155543/599)

In this article, the author notes that Selvin Young has among the highest yards per touches in the NFL. The article also counters arguments such as "well, he's a third down back" and "he lacks ideal size."

Here's a contrary article at my blog:

Signalizing Selvin Young's Success (http://www.rockymountainfever.net/2008/04/signalizing-selvin-youngs-success.html)

This article argues that Denver's biggest deficiency is in the power running game. It notes that our stuff rate and success percentage were both terrible, which deviates from our historical production. Selvin Young was a long bright spot in our running game: his 14 plays for 10+ yards were a big reason why we ranked 6th in the league in 10+ yard plays.

Recently we exhaustively discussed the pass protection and blitz protection. We've gone round and round as to whether Denver ought to draft a lineman with the 12th overall pick. Many of you have heard me argue that Rashard Mendenhall would be an ideal pick at #12. More of you seem to think that Jonathan Stewart is a better pick.

I argue that running back is--after defensive tackle--the principle draft need for the Broncos. Specifically, we need someone who will excel in the power running game. You could also argue that we need a third down back who--like Selvin Young--can break off the big run and pick up the blitz. In the former role, a player like Mendenhall is arguably the best player available. In the latter role, Stewart is unquestionably the guy.

I want to hear what you think about the following:

(a) Is Selvin Young the long term solution at RB?
(b) How high should Denver target a RB in this year's draft?
(c) Who should Denver target? Why?

a. I see him more as a 3rd down guy or a complimentary piece, not the bellcow.
b. 12 (or higher)
c. I think if they have a chance to get McFadden they should. If not McFadden, Mendenhall at 12.

BOSSHOGG30
04-15-2008, 12:15 PM
Mendenhall really isn't an inside runner. He likes to bounce it outside and use his speed. If I had to put a label on Mendenhall it would be outside the tackle runner, not inside the tackle runner. JMO

lex
04-15-2008, 12:19 PM
Mendenhall really isn't an inside runner. He likes to bounce it outside and use his speed. If I had to put a label on Mendenhall it would be outside the tackle runner, not inside the tackle runner. JMO

Thats not true. He had an ample amount of inside runs. I think his best runs against USC were inside the tackles.

tubby
04-15-2008, 12:20 PM
Just give it to the Hoss #20.

lex
04-15-2008, 12:21 PM
Just give it to the Hoss #20.

Give what to him...the ball or a piss test?

MOtorboat
04-15-2008, 12:22 PM
The solution lies along the offensive line.

And, no, it's not on the roster.

tubby
04-15-2008, 12:27 PM
Give what to him...the ball or a piss test?

:rolleyes:

The ball. He is going to have a monster year.

lex
04-15-2008, 12:28 PM
:rolleyes:

The ball. He is going to have a monster year.

Yeah, whatever. He had his chance last year. Time to move on.

BOSSHOGG30
04-15-2008, 12:28 PM
Thats not true. He had an ample amount of inside runs. I think his best runs against USC were inside the tackles.

His one big run versus USC was a draw play in which he took off the left tackle and bounce it outside for a touchdown.

lex
04-15-2008, 12:31 PM
His one big run versus USC was a draw play in which he took off the left tackle and bounce it outside for a touchdown.

It was between the tackles. I have it on my DVR.

BOSSHOGG30
04-15-2008, 12:35 PM
It was between the tackles. I have it on my DVR.

Lol... I just watch it on Youtube... it was designed to go between the tackles but he took it off tackle, ran about 20 yards straight up the left hash mark and bounced it even farther outside for a touchdown.

Italianmobstr7
04-15-2008, 12:36 PM
(a) Is Selvin Young the long term solution at RB?
No he's not. He's a great change of pace, 15 carries a game at most back. He's not durable enough to get 25 touches a game.

(b) How high should Denver target a RB in this year's draft?
3rd round or later, unless Jonathan Stewart somehow falls to them in the 2nd.
(c) Who should Denver target? Why?
Someone like Mike Hart, or Ray Rice. Mike Hart has proven that he's durable and can carry the load. Plus the guy hates to lose, and has a big heart. You've got to respect Mike Hart for the effort he puts out week in and week out.

Also, I'm not sold on Henry being expendable. I think that a healthy Henry (led the league in rushing after 4 weeks) with a clear mind can be dangerous for our team. I think that Henry should remain the primary back unless we pick up a stud RB in the 2nd round or higher in this draft.

r8rh8r
04-15-2008, 12:38 PM
Young is an excellent outside the tackles runner and Henry is an excellent inside the tackles runner.... the only question is health and age. Denver will eventually need a replacement for Henry. Henry is 30 years old and his time is running out. Denver will need an inside runner that can come in and replace him.

Today's NFL you pretty much need two good runningbacks and it helps to have a change of pace.

Young = outside runner
Henry = expendable
Andre Hall is a very good back up.

We just need that guy to replace Henry wether it be this year or next

Henry's success % was 24th in the league last year. He wasn't all the good when he was healthy.

honz
04-15-2008, 12:38 PM
Yeah, whatever. He had his chance last year. Time to move on.
He got injured last year. He was the top rusher in the NFL through 4 weeks.

Italianmobstr7
04-15-2008, 12:39 PM
Yeah, whatever. He had his chance last year. Time to move on.

So he had a rough year? Give him a break. He's clear now, and healthy. He led the league in rushing over the first 4 weeks. Sometimes you've got to give a guy another chance. I think that Henry will have a GREAT year this year.

r8rh8r
04-15-2008, 12:40 PM
Mendenhall really isn't an inside runner. He likes to bounce it outside and use his speed. If I had to put a label on Mendenhall it would be outside the tackle runner, not inside the tackle runner. JMO

Mendenhall is a true one-cut zone rusher. In our system, he's the closest thing to an inside runner your going to get. He has the size to punch the ball through, albeit he's not exactly Brandon Jacobs.

r8rh8r
04-15-2008, 12:41 PM
Lol... I just watch it on Youtube... it was designed to go between the tackles but he took it off tackle, ran about 20 yards straight up the left hash mark and bounced it even farther outside for a touchdown.

One run is hardly indicative of a players ability. That's called representative bias. Mendenhall is a perfect fit in the zone blocking scheme.

r8rh8r
04-15-2008, 12:45 PM
(a) Is Selvin Young the long term solution at RB?
No he's not. He's a great change of pace, 15 carries a game at most back. He's not durable enough to get 25 touches a game.

(b) How high should Denver target a RB in this year's draft?
3rd round or later, unless Jonathan Stewart somehow falls to them in the 2nd.
(c) Who should Denver target? Why?
Someone like Mike Hart, or Ray Rice. Mike Hart has proven that he's durable and can carry the load. Plus the guy hates to lose, and has a big heart. You've got to respect Mike Hart for the effort he puts out week in and week out.

Also, I'm not sold on Henry being expendable. I think that a healthy Henry (led the league in rushing after 4 weeks) with a clear mind can be dangerous for our team. I think that Henry should remain the primary back unless we pick up a stud RB in the 2nd round or higher in this draft.

I think Mike Hart is definitely not an every-down back; he's way too small. Also his 4.7 40-time is perplexing. He doesn't have size and he doesn't have speed. Where does he fit?

After Mendenhall, I don't really see any prototype backs available in this year's draft. After he's gone, I think help on passing downs is available though. Felix Jones, Jonathan Stewart (even though he has the size he hasn't shown he has the durability), and Chris Johnson are all guys who could contribute in the return game and make an impact on passing downs. Has anyone see these guys block?

HolyDiver
04-15-2008, 12:46 PM
There were a pair of articles published today on Denver's backfield and Selvin Young. The first was via Mile High Report:

Should Selvin Young be the Starter? (http://www.milehighreport.com/story/2008/4/14/155543/599)

In this article, the author notes that Selvin Young has among the highest yards per touches in the NFL. The article also counters arguments such as "well, he's a third down back" and "he lacks ideal size."

Here's a contrary article at my blog:

Signalizing Selvin Young's Success (http://www.rockymountainfever.net/2008/04/signalizing-selvin-youngs-success.html)

This article argues that Denver's biggest deficiency is in the power running game. It notes that our stuff rate and success percentage were both terrible, which deviates from our historical production. Selvin Young was a long bright spot in our running game: his 14 plays for 10+ yards were a big reason why we ranked 6th in the league in 10+ yard plays.

Recently we exhaustively discussed the pass protection and blitz protection. We've gone round and round as to whether Denver ought to draft a lineman with the 12th overall pick. Many of you have heard me argue that Rashard Mendenhall would be an ideal pick at #12. More of you seem to think that Jonathan Stewart is a better pick.

I argue that running back is--after defensive tackle--the principle draft need for the Broncos. Specifically, we need someone who will excel in the power running game. You could also argue that we need a third down back who--like Selvin Young--can break off the big run and pick up the blitz. In the former role, a player like Mendenhall is arguably the best player available. In the latter role, Stewart is unquestionably the guy.

I want to hear what you think about the following:

(a) Is Selvin Young the long term solution at RB?
(b) How high should Denver target a RB in this year's draft?
(c) Who should Denver target? Why?

Selvin Young is an every down back.

lex
04-15-2008, 12:46 PM
He got injured last year. He was the top rusher in the NFL through 4 weeks.

OK, so. And Selvin Young had over a 5.0 APC when he played. And plus Henry gets injured a lot along with being one hot piss test away from being gone for the season. And I gotta tell you, that "led the league in rushing after 4 weeks" is a joke. Thats only 1/4th of the season. Wow. How many yards did he have against Jacksonville?

MOtorboat
04-15-2008, 12:47 PM
OK, so. And Selvin Young had over a 5.0 APC when he played. And plus Henry gets injured a lot along with being one hot piss test away from being gone for the season. And I gotta tell you, that "led the league in rushing after 4 weeks" is a joke. Thats only 1/4th of the season. Wow. How many yards did he have against Jacksonville?

He's under contract. Give him the ball until he gets injured or fails a drug test. I don't see why you're against it, he's clearly the best back on the team.

r8rh8r
04-15-2008, 12:47 PM
OK, so. And Selvin Young had over a 5.0 APC when he played. And plus Henry gets injured a lot along with being one hot piss test away from being gone for the season. And I gotta tell you, that "led the league in rushing after 4 weeks" is a joke. Thats only 1/4th of the season. Wow. How many yards did he have against Jacksonville?

5.0 YPC is an elusive statistic. Its not hard to get 7 yards on 3rd and 20.

lex
04-15-2008, 12:49 PM
I think Mike Hart is definitely not an every-down back; he's way too small. Also his 4.7 40-time is perplexing. He doesn't have size and he doesn't have speed. Where does he fit?

After Mendenhall, I don't really see any prototype backs available in this year's draft. After he's gone, I think help on passing downs is available though. Felix Jones, Jonathan Stewart (even though he has the size he hasn't shown he has the durability), and Chris Johnson are all guys who could contribute in the return game and make an impact on passing downs. Has anyone see these guys block?

I think they should take Charles in the 2nd if we take something else in the 1st. Even though Young had some long runs, most of them he wasnt able to take to the endzone and they often led to our redzone offense taking the field. As much as anything, we could use a guy who can take it the distance when the opening is there. Charles gives you that.

lex
04-15-2008, 12:52 PM
5.0 YPC is an elusive statistic. Its not hard to get 7 yards on 3rd and 20.

Im not saying Young is the answer. Im pointing out that neither Young or Henry are the answer.

Italianmobstr7
04-15-2008, 12:52 PM
I think that numbers at the combine and pro days don't always indicate the true story. If you've seen Mike Hart play, then you KNOW that he's an every down back. And this is coming from a Penn State fan. Although I would love to grab Mendenhall (I think this kid is a STUD) I don't know if we should go after a RB before round 3 since we already have 3 capable backs (4 if you count Cecil Sapp) on the roster already.

r8rh8r
04-15-2008, 12:54 PM
As a third down option, Felix Jones is--according to what I've read and not what I've seen--among the best pass blockers in this year's class. He runs a 4.4 and he's got elite return skills. As a second rounder, he'd be my pick.

lex
04-15-2008, 12:55 PM
He's under contract. Give him the ball until he gets injured or fails a drug test. I don't see why you're against it, he's clearly the best back on the team.

Yeah, he's under contract and his deal makes him fairly easy to cut. And no, Im not so certain he is the best back on the team. And I would definitely not want to pin my hopes on this guy again. We did that last year and it didnt end well.

BOSSHOGG30
04-15-2008, 12:55 PM
One run is hardly indicative of a players ability. That's called representative bias. Mendenhall is a perfect fit in the zone blocking scheme.

I thought you knew me better than that and I also often forget that when you make a post on this board that you often have to go into great detail to explain yourself because someone always takes it wrong.

I've watched a lot of video on many runningbacks and prospects. My comments aren't based on one play. I think Mendenhall's strength is as an outside the tackle runner. Many of his most successful runs came off of shotgun delays and plays were he bounced it to the outside. Mendenhall put on some weight this season and now everyone looks at his size and automatically assumes he is an inside the tackles runner. Mendenhall may look the role and even be able to take on more of that role, but as far as his college tapes go, he excels and likes to bounce it outside.

Stewart is size also confuses people. Everyone looks at his size and thinks he just plows people over every play... His college video shows that he doesn't always look to plow people over. His size and leverage says he needs to learn to do this more, but Stewart sometimes gets to shifty and trys to get around people. When he sets his mind on power he is infact the best power runner in this draft, but he also looks for the big plays.

lex
04-15-2008, 12:56 PM
I think that numbers at the combine and pro days don't always indicate the true story. If you've seen Mike Hart play, then you KNOW that he's an every down back. And this is coming from a Penn State fan. Although I would love to grab Mendenhall (I think this kid is a STUD) I don't know if we should go after a RB before round 3 since we already have 3 capable backs (4 if you count Cecil Sapp) on the roster already.

How many games did Mike Hart miss the last 2 years due to injury? And thats in college, mind you.

r8rh8r
04-15-2008, 12:59 PM
I thought you knew me better than that and I also often forget that when you make a post on this board that you often have to go into great detail to explain yourself because someone always takes it wrong.

I've watched a lot of video on many runningbacks and prospects. My comments aren't based on one play. I think Mendenhall's strength is as an outside the tackle runner. Many of his most successful runs came off of shotgun delays and plays were he bounced it to the outside. Mendenhall put on some weight this season and now everyone looks at his size and automatically assumes he is an inside the tackles runner. Mendenhall may look the role and even be able to take on more of that role, but as far as his college tapes go, he excels and likes to bounce it outside.

Stewart is size also confuses people. Everyone looks at his size and thinks he just plows people over every play... His college video shows that he doesn't always look to plow people over. His size and leverage says he needs to learn to do this more, but Stewart sometimes gets to shifty and trys to get around people. When he sets his mind on power he is infact the best power runner in this draft, but he also looks for the big plays.

I certainly didn't mean to offend. I didn't take anything personally. Sorry.

Stewart is an enigmatic guy. He's probably a situational player who can fill multiple roles, but with the paucity of quality RB's in this year's draft, someone is going to grab him and use him wrong. He's 235 but he definitely doesn't play like he weighs that much and he's not durable.

underrated29
04-15-2008, 01:10 PM
young is not an every down back. I personally like hall better.

Henry is definitley and every down back. And he is a good one. But he gets hurt. The whole piss test thing is stupid, hes not gonna do it again so let it go. Some poeple just need something to hold on to to down grade a player.

But when a guy like stewart who is the ulitmate back for our stystem is available to us, we should nab him.......Why? Well, incase travis gets hurt, because travis is 30 and wont be able to play at his level much longer.

Stewart is younger, stronger, faster (not sure about that one). It makes sense. You go get stewart.

We had jake, we got jay, because we know that another qb like jay wont be around for a while. Same with stewart, we got travis, but his time is running down, lets get his replacement ready to rock and roll.

BOSSHOGG30
04-15-2008, 01:13 PM
How many games did Mike Hart miss the last 2 years due to injury? And thats in college, mind you.

So the Vikings shouldn't have taken Adrian Peterson based on this theory? You have to look at more than just an injury when it comes to drafting a player.

Stewart is given the lable injury prone, yet he played through the injury, had amazing games with the injury, and even took part in the combine and posted one of the better forty yard dash times, the best broad jump, and the best vertical among all runningbacks who participated.

I just don't get it.

lex
04-15-2008, 01:16 PM
So the Vikings shouldn't have taken Adrian Peterson based on this theory? You have to look at more than just an injury when it comes to drafting a player.

Stewart is given the lable injury prone, yet he played through the injury, had amazing games with the injury, and even took part in the combine and posted one of the better forty yard dash times, the best broad jump, and the best vertical among all runningbacks who participated.

I just don't get it.

Are you saying Hart is on par with Peterson in terms of talent? I dont get it.

LRtagger
04-15-2008, 01:18 PM
I was about to say the same. Why does everyone now label Stewart as injury prone? He had friggen toe surgery for an injury that he PLAYED THROUGH AND STILL PRODUCED. He did not miss a game last year and ran for 253 yards in the Sun Bowl.

And as Boss has already pointed out, he showed that he is an elite back at the combine even with his "major" injury.

r8rh8r
04-15-2008, 01:19 PM
I think that it was telling when Mike said Travis Henry would "have to have a great training camp" to be the guy in Denver this year. He's intimated that he doesn't think an every-down back is on our roster. In Henry's case, I don't think cutting him is out of the question. Henry walked about from $6 million of his signing bonus because of the failed drug test. That means it would cost us about $2 million to cut him, and he slated to make $3.3 million this year. Next year, it would cost us $1.5 million to cut him. So the net gain to cutting him this year is $2.8 million.

If Henry shows up to camp out of shape or just doesn't play well (or we draft his successor), he could be cut.

EDIT: Net gain fixed; $2.8 million is a straight-away gain not a FV sum.

underrated29
04-15-2008, 01:22 PM
If we take one of the top 3 backs stew/dmac/mend travis will not be here next year unless he hits 1800+ this year.

He will start this year no matter what, but if we do get one of the top guys he might push travis for starting role by mid season (if travis is still healthy).

Travis is still the man, but why not get a younger upgraded version if we can.

BOSSHOGG30
04-15-2008, 01:34 PM
Are you saying Hart is on par with Peterson in terms of talent? I dont get it.

Yes that is what I'm saying lex (this is severe sarcasm)

I'm saying that if you like a player and that player fits your scheme, then you shouldn't be worried about injury, especially when it isn't severe injury or if the player is still young. Being old and injury prone is a little different from being young and have nagging injuries. There is a lot to factor when it comes to injuries. You shouldn't just throw out the idea of drafting a guy like Heart just because he missed a few games in college due to injury.

honz
04-15-2008, 01:46 PM
OK, so. And Selvin Young had over a 5.0 APC when he played. And plus Henry gets injured a lot along with being one hot piss test away from being gone for the season. And I gotta tell you, that "led the league in rushing after 4 weeks" is a joke. Thats only 1/4th of the season. Wow. How many yards did he have against Jacksonville?
When Henry came back from injury later in the season he was clearly not 100%. He looked about as explosive as I would be out there hitting the holes.

lex
04-15-2008, 01:53 PM
When Henry came back from injury later in the season he was clearly not 100%. He looked about as explosive as I would be out there hitting the holes.

How many children do you have? How much weed do you have in your glove compartment?

MOtorboat
04-15-2008, 01:57 PM
How many children do you have? How much weed do you have in your glove compartment?

So?

Can he run? Yes. Let him do it, till he gets caught again, or gets injured. He's the best option.

We need to fix the offensive line anyway.

lex
04-15-2008, 01:59 PM
So?

Can he run? Yes. Let him do it, till he gets caught again, or gets injured. He's the best option.

We need to fix the offensive line anyway.

No. We should look to move on.

BOSSHOGG30
04-15-2008, 02:10 PM
I think we all know that we need depth on the O-line... What the real question should be is What is more important or what is the better route for the Broncos to take in the draft?

1st round RB and multiple O-line picks with the other 6 to 8 draft picks based on what we do with the Robertson trade

or

1st round OL and a RB in the later rounds with the other 6 to 8 draft picks based on what we do with the Robertson trade

honz
04-15-2008, 02:17 PM
How many children do you have? How much weed do you have in your glove compartment?
He may be a more explosive runner than I am, but I am still more explosive in the sack.:salute:

Seriously, what is your big deal with not wanting Henry as our running back? He is a solid, above average NFL running back.

lex
04-15-2008, 02:22 PM
He may be a more explosive runner than I am, but I am still more explosive in the sack.:salute:

Seriously, what is your big deal with not wanting Henry as our running back? He is a solid, above average NFL running back.

Whats with your slavish devotion to having someone who is "above average" (assuming he's healthy or not suspended) when we can have someone better?

BOSSHOGG30
04-15-2008, 02:26 PM
He may be a more explosive runner than I am, but I am still more explosive in the sack.:salute:

Seriously, what is your big deal with not wanting Henry as our running back? He is a solid, above average NFL running back.

I don't want him for multiple reasons:

1) Money

We paid this guy way too much for basically one to three years of sub par performance. Sure he will give you a few good games, but I don't see him having a full good year.

2) Character

Do we really have to list all the things this guy has done over the years... Some people just never learn. He always says he is changed or will change, but somehow his name always pops up in negative ways. Where there is smoke there is usually a fire.

3) Age

Henry is 30 years old. This is the age that most back, especially power backs start to decline. Henry seems to have hit the decline already and now we are just hoping we can sneak a few more games out of him.

4) Roster spot

Henry was good enough throughout his injury prone career to earn some respect around the league as a good to decent running back. I think he not only got a contract from us because of this, but he is holding a spot because of this. Some people have hope that he will stay healthy and that he still has something left in the take, but every year he lets those with high hopes down. Now he is just holding up a roster spot in one of the best running back drafts in a very long time. If Henry wasn't on the roster Denver would probably be looking at taking a stub back early and we could finally have that TD/Portis like performances in our future.

5) Chemistry

We have a few problem childs on our team... Our team is very young and young players usually look up to the veteran players to mentor them. I don't like the idea of Henry as a mentor to your youth. Also, our offense has many young players that we would like to build around, especially Jay Cutler, It would be nice to have a younger more promising back that we can pair with Cutler for years to come.

MOtorboat
04-15-2008, 02:27 PM
Whats with your slavish devotion to having someone who is "above average" (assuming he's healthy or not suspended) when we can have someone better?

Because the offensive line sucks balls, and it doesn't really matter who you put behind them right now, so you fix that and put your best option back there, which is Henry.

honz
04-15-2008, 02:27 PM
I'm all about drafting either Stewart or Mendenhall at 12...I'm just saying that Henry ain't no slouch.

lex
04-15-2008, 02:34 PM
Because the offensive line sucks balls, and it doesn't really matter who you put behind them right now, so you fix that and put your best option back there, which is Henry.

You could go OL in the 1st, or you could go RB first and get OL later. OL is supposed to be deep this year. Not only that, if the FO is set on Kuper or Harris moving over to LT, the question becomes, if not OT, then what? And along those lines RB is a good place to upgrade.

BOSSHOGG30
04-15-2008, 02:39 PM
You could go OL in the 1st, or you could go RB first and get OL later. OL is supposed to be deep this year. Not only that, if the FO is set on Kuper or Harris moving over to LT, the question becomes, if not OT, then what? And along those lines RB is a good place to upgrade.

Huge upgrades too...

RB Young UDFA / Hall UDFA to 1st round talent Stewart, Mendenhall, McFadden

OT Harris 3rd rounder / Kuper 5th rounder to 1st rounder Clady, Williams, Otah, Alberts

HolyDiver
04-15-2008, 02:46 PM
In the 90's, we should have upgraded over that loser Rod Smith.................Well, since he was an undrafted Free agent, and was a practice squad player his first year, that OBVIOUSLY means, he's no good...............We should have gone for the sexy, #1 pick.

underrated29
04-15-2008, 02:48 PM
In the 90's, we should have upgraded over that loser Rod Smith.................Well, since he was an undrafted Free agent, and was a practice squad player his first year, that OBVIOUSLY means, he's no good...............We should have gone for the sexy, #1 pick.



Randy moss??

lex
04-15-2008, 02:54 PM
In the 90's, we should have upgraded over that loser Rod Smith.................Well, since he was an undrafted Free agent, and was a practice squad player his first year, that OBVIOUSLY means, he's no good...............We should have gone for the sexy, #1 pick.

Im glad you brought up Rod. 1) He was a receiver and 2) he understood his role and that we are a running team. So, actually since Rod was all about chipping in in the running game, citing him only underscores the importance of having someone who can get it done at RB.

atwater27
04-15-2008, 03:01 PM
What's all this talk about Selvin not being durable? DOes he havean expiration date tattoed on his forehead? A Warranty stamped on his back?
Christ, he was a rookie last year. Lots of running backs get injured. I think he will do fine for us.
Travis Henry is a question mark obviousyl because of his character.
Andre Hall shone bright as a star when he had his chance. Who knows, he might be the best back on the team!

atwater27
04-15-2008, 03:03 PM
Whats with your slavish devotion to having someone who is "above average" (assuming he's healthy or not suspended) when we can have someone better?

Because we have OTHER positions with players who are "BELOW AVERAGE" or worse.:welcome:

lex
04-15-2008, 03:11 PM
Because we have OTHER positions with players who are "BELOW AVERAGE" or worse.:welcome:

If youre a team whose identity is passing the ball, would you try to get by with a mediocre QB? Wouldnt you want your QB to be the best you could find in order to best maximize what youre good at?

atwater27
04-15-2008, 03:15 PM
If youre a team whose identity is passing the ball, would you try to get by with a mediocre QB? Wouldnt you want your QB to be the best you could find in order to best maximize what youre good at?

Right now we are a team who's identity is sucking, therfore to improve from that, wasting picks on players at a position that is already a strength would just prove the sucking part.

lex
04-15-2008, 03:21 PM
Right now we are a team who's identity is sucking, therfore to improve from that, wasting picks on players at a position that is already a strength would just prove the sucking part.

Theres nothing wrong with drafting someone at a position of greatest impact. You often hear "oh, we dont need to take a running back with a high pick...we can get by without an elite running back....anyone can run for 1200 yards in our system...we're Denver damn it!". But the flip side to that is, imagine how an elite RB would do in Denver. And actually, a lot of our Olinemen havent been drafted in the first. So the same thing can be said about our OLinemen. Same with WR.

omac
04-15-2008, 10:13 PM
I guess the question is, based on a few of the mocks around, would you rather have ...

(scenario 1)
(OT) Ryan Clady, Chris Williams, or Jeff Otah in the 1st and ...
(RB) Chris Johnson, Ray Rice, Matt Forté, Kevin Smith, Jamaal Charles, Tashard Choice, or Steve Slaton later on

or

(scenario 2)
(RB) Rashard Mendenhall, Felix Jones, or Jonathan Stewart in the 1st and ...
(OT) Gosder Cherilus, Carl Nicks, Sam Baker, Anthony Collins, or Oniel Cousins later on?

Some mocks have Stewart falling out of the 1st round because of his injury, and others have Baker or Cherilus taken in the 1st round.

I like scenario 1 better, with a very slight chance of getting Stewart in the 2nd, but if not, there are guys like Rice and Slaton.

What is the performance dropoff between a Clady and a Collins, and the dropoff between a Mendenhall and a Rice?

I say protect the franchise QB first, or we won't have much of a vertical attack. :cheers:

TXBRONC
04-15-2008, 10:16 PM
Shanahan said himself that he didn't think Selvin was an everydown back because he was starting to breakdown with increaded work.

Davii
04-15-2008, 10:21 PM
I think a somewhat retooled but mostly healthy offensive line is the answer at running back.

Young would be a better runner inside the tackles if the line was better.

red98
04-15-2008, 10:32 PM
I guess the question is, based on a few of the mocks around, would you rather have ...

(scenario 1)
(OT) Ryan Clady, Chris Williams, or Jeff Otah in the 1st and ...
(RB) Chris Johnson, Ray Rice, Matt Forté, Kevin Smith, Jamaal Charles, Tashard Choice, or Steve Slaton later on

or

(scenario 2)
(RB) Rashard Mendenhall, Felix Jones, or Jonathan Stewart in the 1st and ...
(OT) Gosder Cherilus, Carl Nicks, Sam Baker, Anthony Collins, or Oniel Cousins later on?

Some mocks have Stewart falling out of the 1st round because of his injury, and others have Baker or Cherilus taken in the 1st round.

I like scenario 1 better, with a very slight chance of getting Stewart in the 2nd, but if not, there are guys like Rice and Slaton.

What is the performance dropoff between a Clady and a Collins, and the dropoff between a Mendenhall and a Rice?

I say protect the franchise QB first, or we won't have much of a vertical attack. :cheers:

Good post.

I like scenario 1 with Williams in the 1st and Rice in the 2nd.
I think Rice has the best vision of any RB in the draft and would do very well in Denver.

SmilinAssasSin27
04-15-2008, 10:41 PM
I'm starting to come back to the Ray Rice answer. I really think he's gonna be a very good RB. Much like my argument FOR Cutler was that he made Vandy of all teams respectable, the same can be said for Rice and Rutgers. He's gotten some run of late on ESPN and the radio, but ya can't deny his numbers. He is the same speed as Jones-Drew and outperformed him in the strength exercises. He may be short, but he certainly is not small. I think I want defense in round 1 and Rice in round 2.

SmilinAssasSin27
04-15-2008, 10:44 PM
Trade back in round 1 to get a 3rd rounder. Draft Mayo, Phillips or Balmer and then get Rice in round 2.

omac
04-15-2008, 10:56 PM
Good post.

I like scenario 1 with Williams in the 1st and Rice in the 2nd.
I think Rice has the best vision of any RB in the draft and would do very well in Denver.

Thanks :cheers: It just looks like though we have greater needs than RB, we can still get some really good ones past the 1st round, while still addressing our more obvious weaknesses in the 1st. Rice could be a steal.

omac
04-15-2008, 11:01 PM
I'm starting to come back to the Ray Rice answer. I really think he's gonna be a very good RB. Much like my argument FOR Cutler was that he made Vandy of all teams respectable, the same can be said for Rice and Rutgers. He's gotten some run of late on ESPN and the radio, but ya can't deny his numbers. He is the same speed as Jones-Drew and outperformed him in the strength exercises. He may be short, but he certainly is not small. I think I want defense in round 1 and Rice in round 2.

Yeah, we really need help on defense first, but if we don't go defense in the 1st round, I'd rather we go OT rather than RB or WR in the 1st.

omac
04-15-2008, 11:02 PM
Trade back in round 1 to get a 3rd rounder. Draft Mayo, Phillips or Balmer and then get Rice in round 2.

Seems like this year, it's easier said than done; everyone wants to trade down where the real values are.

topscribe
04-15-2008, 11:08 PM
There were a pair of articles published today on Denver's backfield and Selvin Young. The first was via Mile High Report:

Should Selvin Young be the Starter? (http://www.milehighreport.com/story/2008/4/14/155543/599)

In this article, the author notes that Selvin Young has among the highest yards per touches in the NFL. The article also counters arguments such as "well, he's a third down back" and "he lacks ideal size."

Here's a contrary article at my blog:

Signalizing Selvin Young's Success (http://www.rockymountainfever.net/2008/04/signalizing-selvin-youngs-success.html)

This article argues that Denver's biggest deficiency is in the power running game. It notes that our stuff rate and success percentage were both terrible, which deviates from our historical production. Selvin Young was a long bright spot in our running game: his 14 plays for 10+ yards were a big reason why we ranked 6th in the league in 10+ yard plays.

Recently we exhaustively discussed the pass protection and blitz protection. We've gone round and round as to whether Denver ought to draft a lineman with the 12th overall pick. Many of you have heard me argue that Rashard Mendenhall would be an ideal pick at #12. More of you seem to think that Jonathan Stewart is a better pick.

I argue that running back is--after defensive tackle--the principle draft need for the Broncos. Specifically, we need someone who will excel in the power running game. You could also argue that we need a third down back who--like Selvin Young--can break off the big run and pick up the blitz. In the former role, a player like Mendenhall is arguably the best player available. In the latter role, Stewart is unquestionably the guy.

I want to hear what you think about the following:

(a) Is Selvin Young the long term solution at RB?
(b) How high should Denver target a RB in this year's draft?
(c) Who should Denver target? Why?

Young showed in no uncertain terms last year that he was willing to hit
somebody. He also expressed some dissatisfaction with his own weight and
said he was going to put on a few pounds over the offseason. It will be
interesting to see whether he did that because he is truly a gifted runner
who can score from anywhere on the field. If he can go between the
tackles this year because of added weight, then we just might have more
than we thought we had.

Of course, this is speculation until he puts the shoulder pads back on this
year. But the thought of it is intriguing.

-----

omac
04-15-2008, 11:14 PM
Young showed in no uncertain terms last year that he was willing to hit
somebody. He also expressed some dissatisfaction with his own weight and
said he was going to put on a few pounds over the offseason. It will be
interesting to see whether he did that because he is truly a gifted runner
who can score from anywhere on the field. If he can go between the
tackles this year because of added weight, then we just might have more
than we thought we had.

Of course, this is speculation until he puts the shoulder pads back on this
year. But the thought of it is intriguing.

-----

That's what I like his attitude the most; he doesn't avoid contact, and even when injured, he forced himself to play because he didn't want Hall to take his spot when Hall had that good game. His body is the only real question; it either can take a lot of punishment, or he'll be injury prone if he's used too excessively.

atwater27
04-16-2008, 12:55 AM
I'm starting to come back to the Ray Rice answer. I really think he's gonna be a very good RB. Much like my argument FOR Cutler was that he made Vandy of all teams respectable, the same can be said for Rice and Rutgers. He's gotten some run of late on ESPN and the radio, but ya can't deny his numbers. He is the same speed as Jones-Drew and outperformed him in the strength exercises. He may be short, but he certainly is not small. I think I want defense in round 1 and Rice in round 2.

Ray Rice is a STUD.
I would be very happy if he was a bronco.

Retired_Member_001
04-16-2008, 10:08 AM
Shanahan said himself that he didn't think Selvin was an everydown back because he was starting to breakdown with increaded work.

Yeah I remember this during last season that he carried the load one game, and then was injured for the next few games. If Selvin Young cannot keep healthy, which he can't, then he can't be the number one back for us.

Davii
04-16-2008, 10:12 AM
Yeah I remember this during last season that he carried the load one game, and then was injured for the next few games. If Selvin Young cannot keep healthy, which he can't, then he can't be the number one back for us.

Well if he added a little bulk to his frame like he talked about doing he just may be able to stay healthy. I'm unsure how I feel about it, adding bulk would help him absorb the impacts a bit better and be able to further carry the load, however, it will most likely also impact his top speed. There wouldn't be much loss, if any, to his "burst speed", but I do think his top speed would be negatively impacted by the added weight.

CoachChaz
04-16-2008, 10:15 AM
I prefer him as a back-up. The guy that can come in, give a different perspective, get 30 or 40 yards on 8 carries and get a few receptions.

Retired_Member_001
04-16-2008, 10:19 AM
Well if he added a little bulk to his frame like he talked about doing he just may be able to stay healthy. I'm unsure how I feel about it, adding bulk would help him absorb the impacts a bit better and be able to further carry the load, however, it will most likely also impact his top speed. There wouldn't be much loss, if any, to his "burst speed", but I do think his top speed would be negatively impacted by the added weight.

I don't think adding weight will do much.

Look at Travis Henry, he's 230lbs and he's very injury prone. If your body can't take hits, your body can't take hits, that's all there is to it.

BOSSHOGG30
04-16-2008, 10:21 AM
I don't think adding weight will do much.

Look at Travis Henry, he's 230lbs and he's very injury prone. If your body can't take hits, your body can't take hits, that's all there is to it.

Henry would be able to stay healthier if it wasn't for his running style. A backs running style has a lot to do with injuries. Henry doesn't know when to go down or when to run out of bounce. This is a good thing sometimes, but you have to be smart and know when to take and give hits. Henry is a good runner, but not a smart runner.

Retired_Member_001
04-16-2008, 10:24 AM
I prefer him as a back-up. The guy that can come in, give a different perspective, get 30 or 40 yards on 8 carries and get a few receptions.

Yeah exactly. His game is to come and for a few carries and break a couple of big runs. In my opinion he should stay at a light weight to allow him to have that same lightning quickness to break those runs. He needs to stick to what he does best.

Davii
04-16-2008, 10:26 AM
Yeah exactly. His game is to come and for a few carries and break a couple of big runs. In my opinion he should stay at a light weight to allow him to have that same lightning quickness to break those runs. He needs to stick to what he does best.

Got to agree. I do think adding some weight would help him with being injury prone, but he would definitely lose some quickness, not a good trade off IMO.

Retired_Member_001
04-16-2008, 10:26 AM
Henry would be able to stay healthier if it wasn't for his running style. A backs running style has a lot to do with injuries. Henry doesn't know when to go down or when to run out of bounce. This is a good thing sometimes, but you have to be smart and know when to take and give hits. Henry is a good runner, but not a smart runner.

Yes but isn't one of the purposes to Selvin Young adding weight is that he will run down the middle and take more hits? If Selvin Young is injury prone in his non contact style, how is a more contact style of running going to help him even if he adds weight?

BOSSHOGG30
04-16-2008, 10:29 AM
Yes but isn't one of the purposes to Selvin Young adding weight is that he will run down the middle and take more hits? If Selvin Young is injury prone in his non contact style, how is a more contact style of running going to help him even if he adds weight?

In no way am I talking about Young... my comment was purely based on Henry. I do not want Young to gain weight.... I've stated many times that Denver needs another big back that excels between the tackles and that Young excels at running outside the tackles. Young and ? would give us the two back system you pretty much need in the NFL today.

Retired_Member_001
04-16-2008, 10:32 AM
In no way am I talking about Young... my comment was purely based on Henry. I do not want Young to gain weight.... I've stated many times that Denver needs another big back that excels between the tackles and that Young excels at running outside the tackles. Young and ? would give us the two back system you pretty much need in the NFL today.

Fair enough.

Jonathan Stewart and Selvin Young would make for possibly the best running back combo in the NBA.

BOSSHOGG30
04-16-2008, 10:33 AM
Another good thing about drafting Mendenhall, McFadden, or Stewart..... You know the media would give the Broncos some love this year. We could actually turn on the TV or Radio and hear Broncos.

BOSSHOGG30
04-16-2008, 10:33 AM
Fair enough.

Jonathan Stewart and Selvin Young would make for possibly the best running back combo in the NBA.

NBA, NHL, and MLB

Retired_Member_001
04-16-2008, 10:35 AM
NBA, NHL, and MLB

:laugh:

I'm switching between this messageboard and a Lakers messageboard right now. It's confused my brain. I did the same at the Lakers messageboard calling the NBA the NFL.

:laugh:

Nature Boy
04-16-2008, 01:36 PM
..... You know the media would give the Broncos some love this year. We could actually turn on the TV or Radio and hear Broncos.

The Broncos have always been one of the most televised football team the last 12-13 years next to teams like the Cowboys and Patriots. Well, that is where I live right here in the middle of the AFC west.

BOSSHOGG30
04-16-2008, 01:49 PM
The Broncos have always been one of the most televised football team the last 12-13 years next to teams like the Cowboys and Patriots. Well, that is where I live right here in the middle of the AFC west.

I never hear or see the Broncos in my area... I have to buy NFL Ticket on Direct TV just to watch the games or hear anything about them. It was even rare during the Super Bowl years... Living in Northeast, PA I'm in the middle of Buffalo Bills, New York Jets, New York Giants, Philidelphia Eagles, Washington Redskins, and Pittsburgh Steelers territory. You are bound to hear a lot more about these teams than anything.

When the Pats were going undeafeted I was hearing about either McNabb getthing healthy and playing better, Big Ben's big year, and the New York Yankees and Mets.

Nature Boy
04-16-2008, 02:00 PM
I never hear or see the Broncos in my area... I have to buy NFL Ticket on Direct TV just to watch the games or hear anything about them. It was even rare during the Super Bowl years... Living in Northeast, PA I'm in the middle of Buffalo Bills, New York Jets, New York Giants, Philidelphia Eagles, Washington Redskins, and Pittsburgh Steelers territory. You are bound to hear a lot more about these teams than anything.

When the Pats were going undeafeted I was hearing about either McNabb getthing healthy and playing better, Big Ben's big year, and the New York Yankees and Mets.

You might wanna consider moving out here to California then. It's not the same as it used to be but at least the weather is always nice. All sorts of out door activities. Fish, hunt, ski, surf, all within 1.5hrs away all around me.

You will have to put up with a lot of Raiders and Niners fans however. Raiders fans are the worst, but it's all great, cause we know and even they know that the Broncos own the Raiders.

topscribe
04-16-2008, 02:20 PM
Fair enough.

Jonathan Stewart and Selvin Young would make for possibly the best running back combo in the NBA.

Yes, but . . . but . . . Stewart is injury-prone. He broke his toe, didn't he?

This "injury-prone" business is a little overdone. Young got hurt. Fine. What
happened to Adrian Peterson and Larry Johnson?

-----

HolyDiver
04-16-2008, 03:33 PM
Yes, but . . . but . . . Stewart is injury-prone. He broke his toe, didn't he?

This "injury-prone" business is a little overdone. Young got hurt. Fine. What
happened to Adrian Peterson and Larry Johnson?

-----

Exactly..............Young played hurt, I re-watched several games.........he runs hard and once again boys, he's a COMPLETE back. ..............But, play the wait and see if you want.

Retired_Member_001
04-16-2008, 04:18 PM
Yes, but . . . but . . . Stewart is injury-prone. He broke his toe, didn't he?

This "injury-prone" business is a little overdone. Young got hurt. Fine. What
happened to Adrian Peterson and Larry Johnson?

-----

Are we talking about Henry here or Young?

In Henry's case, go look at his stats and see how many games he has missed. The guy needs to be able to carry the ball 300 times in a season for more than only two years in his whole career.

http://www.nfl.com/players/travishenry/profile?id=HEN669935

As for Selvin Young and Jonathan Stewart, I don't usually like to judge whether a guy will be injury prone before he has a few seasons under his belt. Some guys are unlucky, some guys just cannot take hits.

At the moment I doubt Selvin Young can carry the load and stay healthy because the few times he has carried the load, he has been injured the next game. I'm not going to label him injury prone for the rest of his career, but at this point in time it's not looking good for him.

topscribe
04-16-2008, 04:23 PM
Are we talking about Henry here or Young?

In Henry's case, go look at his stats and see how many games he has missed. The guy needs to be able to carry the ball 300 times in a season for more than only two years in his whole career.

http://www.nfl.com/players/travishenry/profile?id=HEN669935

As for Selvin Young and Jonathan Stewart, I don't usually like to judge whether a guy will be injury prone before he has a few seasons under his belt. Some guys are unlucky, some guys just cannot take hits.

At the moment I doubt Selvin Young can carry the load and stay healthy because the few times he has carried the load, he has been injured the next game. I'm not going to label him injury prone for the rest of his career, but at this point in time it's not looking good for him.

Yes, I know Henry's story. I know Cookie Gilchrist's story, for pity's sake.

And I think it is looking great for Young. Because he was injured last year
is nothing to me. As I vividly pointed out, several RBs were injured last year.
Young certainly was not alone in that category.

-----

Nature Boy
04-16-2008, 04:24 PM
Is the solution at running back on our roster? Yes, a heavy dose of Travis Henry with a sprinkling of Selvin and Hall.

Retired_Member_001
04-16-2008, 04:27 PM
Yes, I know Henry's story. I know Cookie Gilchrist's story, for pity's sake.

And I think it is looking great for Young. Because he was injured last year
is nothing to me. As I vividly pointed out, several RBs were injured last year.
Young certainly was not alone in that category.

-----

I understand.

I'm just saying, he had a half season hardly touching the ball and then the few games he does carry the load, he gets injured. He's a great back but how will he copes with injuries will be the major question.

topscribe
04-16-2008, 04:37 PM
Is the solution at running back on our roster? Yes, a heavy dose of Travis Henry and a sprinkling Selvin and Hall.

Don't forget the garlic. :D

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