How Bad is Denver's Pass Protection?

[r8rh8r]

Well, if you look at the numbers, not all that bad. Last season Cutler took 27 sacks, 1/3rd of them coming in week 15 and 16. 1/3rd of them were allowed by the left tackle position; however, 5 of these came in one abominable game. Given all the draft hype about Denver and this offensive tackle class, I don't really see a quantitative basis for the claim that Cutler is a sitting duck behind Chris Kuper or Ryan Harris.

I looked at 2 statistics: sacks per game and attempts per sack (aka "sack rate"). Last season, Cutler ranked 17th and 15th respectively among all NFL quarterbacks (out of 36 eligible) despite facing 11 of the top 15 pass rushes in the league.

Qualitatively speaking, I accounted for every play who sacked Cutler last season and their position. The tackle position wasn't a "problem" as far as his sack totals are concerned.

All data and a more detailed discussion of this analysis is available at the following link:

Dissecting Denver's Pass Protection (http://www.rockymountainfever.net/2008/04/dissecting-denvers-pass-protection.html)

I encourage you to read the article and welcome your feedback. Thanks!

[Ziggy]

Sacks aren't a true indication of the pressure he was getting. Cutler has a fairly quick release and a knack for feeling the rush. There were quite a few times where he threw the ball away or missed the receiver by throwing it out before the route was completed to avoid a sack. Do the same research on QB pressures per drop back ratio and I think you'll see a whole different story unfold.

[SBboundBRONCOS]

yeah i dont think the numbers fully explain our situation with pass protection, IMO it seemed like nearly every time Cutler dropped back he didnt have the time he wanted, he also is good at escaping sacks

he was always under pressure and hurried. i think though with some continuity on the line it will be a better story this year, we had to much going on last year

[Ziggy]

Here's an example. I found this while looking at BMarsh highlights. This video was made to show how talented Brandon Marshal is, but it's almost a tribute to Cutler either avoiding the pass rush, releasing the ball within 2-3 seconds, or rolling the pocket. In nearly every play on this video he had horrible pass protection. None were sacks.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1dwOoIoJYUA

[honz]

Here's an example. I found this while looking at BMarsh highlights. This video was made to show how talented Brandon Marshal is, but it's almost a tribute to Cutler either avoiding the pass rush, releasing the ball within 2-3 seconds, or rolling the pocket. In nearly every play on this video he had horrible pass protection. None were sacks.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1dwOoIoJYUA
I've seen that video before, but I never noticed how Cutler was under pressure on nearly every single one of those plays.

Our pass protection really was horrible last year. How good can Cutler be when he actually has time to throw the ball on a consistent basis???

[Ziggy]

I've seen that video before, but I never noticed how Cutler was under pressure on nearly every single one of those plays.

Our pass protection really was horrible last year. How good can Cutler be when he actually has time to throw the ball on a consistent basis???

I think the sky is the limit. He really only has just over 1 year of experience and he was making those plays and many others under heavy pressure. I don't think many people realize just how good he already is. Give him a good O-line and he'll start throwing up some major numbers.

[NameUsedBefore]

I don't really see a quantitative basis for the claim that Cutler is a sitting duck behind Chris Kuper or Ryan Harris.


Who? :lol:

Denver's O-line is going to be in shambles this coming year if things don't pan out with Nalen's arm/age, Hamilton's head, Harris, Kuper and Pears et al as blockers as they are all question marks. It's a legitimate concern, IMO, and the stats don't really show the whole picture.

[Nature Boy]

The Broncos pass protection has been pretty bad since after the 2005 season. Pears suck and so did Lepsis the last 2 season injury or not. Was the main reason why Plummer was chased out of town pre-maturely, sending BroncoLand into this downward spiral, trying to rebuild.

[Nature Boy]

Who? :lol:

Denver's O-line is going to be in shambles this coming year if things don't pan out with Nalen's arm/age, Hamilton's head, Harris, Kuper and Pears et al as blockers as they are all question marks. It's a legitimate concern, IMO, and the stats don't really show the whole picture.

Totally agree!

[Lonestar]

The Broncos pass protection has been pretty bad since after the 2005 season. Pears suck and so did Lepsis the last 2 season injury or not. Was the main reason why Plummer was chased out of town pre-maturely, sending BroncoLand into this downward spiral, trying to rebuild.

Actually it has been in a spiral since Zimmerman and crew left .. None of the QB's since then have had the time to stand in the pocket and make plays..

One of the big reasons mikey went after Jake to get back the magic of a QB that could effectively escape the rush.

The low sacks were a tribute to his ability to snake out.. less so from the OLINES ability to hold the rush back..

[JONtheBRONCO]

Bad - take a look at some game tape from last season...

[Requiem / The Dagda]

let me put int tinerto toerms you maybe can understnad.

u have a guy named erik perars who is the worst pass blocker since the kid from the goonies named chunck

and then u have an unkown
w
e got so many injured playr anad cutler never had the time to pass ball to friend sand subsequently everyone else sufefered and i think that we need and UPGRADE lemme upgrade ya lilwayen beyonce

nd that's the rap.

[Den21vsBal19]

Actually it has been in a spiral since Zimmerman and crew left .. None of the QB's since then have had the time to stand in the pocket and make plays..

One of the big reasons mikey went after Jake to get back the magic of a QB that could effectively escape the rush.

The low sacks were a tribute to his ability to snake out.. less so from the OLINES ability to hold the rush back..

And that's with keeping Graham and a back in as blockers most of the time.

The Steelers cost us more than a shot at the Superbowl, they showed the whole league how to beat our pass protection scheme

[Nature Boy]

Actually it has been in a spiral since Zimmerman and crew left .. None of the QB's since then have had the time to stand in the pocket and make plays..

2005 was a great year. Had the defense been able to stop Ben Rothfinburger, the Broncos would have beat Seattle and claimed another Lombardi trophy. So I would say since Zimmerman left, the Broncos idled with Griese and never took off, but steadily climbed with Plummer on his 3rd year.


One of the big reasons mikey went after Jake to get back the magic of a QB that could effectively escape the rush.

The low sacks were a tribute to his ability to snake out.. less so from the OLINES ability to hold the rush back..

Contradiction here? Mike went after Jake cause he was not that magical QB that can effectively scramble? Then on the 2nd line you said the low sack totals, especially in 05, was due to Jake's snakyness? :confused:

[Den21vsBal19]

I don't see any contradiction there............JR says we went after Jake because of his mobility, and that was a major factor in the low sack totals of 05..............

And then the Steelers blew up our protection, and between that and replacing Kube with Dinger we went to a more pocket based pass scheme, which our line wasn't really suited to in 06.

[turftoad]

Actually it has been in a spiral since Zimmerman and crew left .. None of the QB's since then have had the time to stand in the pocket and make plays..
One of the big reasons mikey went after Jake to get back the magic of a QB that could effectively escape the rush.

The low sacks were a tribute to his ability to snake out.. less so from the OLINES ability to hold the rush back..

More so.... been on a downward spiral since Alex Gibbs left. That guy was able to turn 5-7th round draft pick into Pro Bowlers.

[r8rh8r]

Forgive me, but I don't see what you guys are fussing about in that video. The Oakland clip (4th clip) is the only one I see where our pass protection is defeated. Keep in mind, the offensive line is rarely trying to overpower the pass rusher; instead, they are trying to direct traffic to get Cutler time.

Take the deep pass against Jacksonville (3rd clip): Jacksonville is overloading the strong side to prevent Cutler from having a throwing lane for Marshall. Cutler has a pocket he can rest safely in; instead, he challenges the defensive end, leaves the pocket, and gets the ball to Marshall--who's beaten Rashean Mathis--before he succumbs to the pressure.

The second Jacksonville clip (7th clip), Jacs WLB blitzes, is selling the blitz before the play, and the running back runs right past the guy to try and set up a bubble screen. That's not an offensive line problem; that's a blitz protection problem. You think Matt Light is the best pass protector in NE? Watch 3rd-down-back Kevin Faulk sometime.

The Kansas City clip, Jared Allen defeats a block, but Cutler has enough time to throw the ball 40 yards down field; he's not "hurried." Keep in mind that a deep pass requires the maximum amount of time to execute. So looking primarily at these routes is not really indicative of our pass protection.

I think that we should be clear by what we mean when we throw around the term "hurried." A hurry is when the Quarterback is forced to make a throw because pressure has defeated the timing of the play. That happens twice in this video.

This assertion that Cutler is under pressure "every time" is false. Certainly the quarterback matters when you're talking about sacks (as we all saw in Ramsey's case last year); but Cutler isn't protecting himself out there. Like the article claims: the pass protection was average last season.

If you want to see what it looks like for a quarterback to have ZERO pass protection, watch some Michael Vick footage sometimes. Vick has .5 seconds to release the ball or run for life. It was almost comical. Does anyone here happen to know who the architect of his pass protection was?

Edit: Selvin Young is the genius the ignores the blitzer in the Jacksonville clip. What I wouldn't give to have a third down back that can block. It's also worth mentioning that Denver's line ranked 3rd in the NFL last year in YPC in the rushing game.

[Ziggy]

I don't see any contradiction there............JR says we went after Jake because of his mobility, and that was a major factor in the low sack totals of 05..............

And then the Steelers blew up our protection, and between that and replacing Kube with Dinger we went to a more pocket based pass scheme, which our line wasn't really suited to in 06.

Plummers sack numbers were very deceiving. He nearly always had either misdirection, a rolling pocket, or quick slants called for his pass plays. When Cutler came in, the Broncos went back to more of a traditional pocket passing game and found out that the O-line is too small too handle that type of protection. That's why they brought in 320 pound guard Montrae Holland last year. I wouldn't be surprised to see the entire offensive line, or at least 4 of the 5 over 300 pounds in the next 2-3 years.

[r8rh8r]

Plummers sack numbers were very deceiving. He nearly always had either misdirection, a rolling pocket, or quick slants called for his pass plays. When Cutler came in, the Broncos went back to more of a traditional pocket passing game and found out that the O-line is too small too handle that type of protection. That's why they brought in 320 pound guard Montrae Holland last year. I wouldn't be surprised to see the entire offensive line, or at least 4 of the 5 over 300 pounds in the next 2-3 years.

Kuper, Pears, and Harris are all 300+

We certainly seem to be trending towards a larger line, but I don't see Denver abandoning the zone-blocking scheme during Shanahan's tenure. That's always going to leave us smaller than average.

[Lonestar]

More so.... been on a downward spiral since Alex Gibbs left. That guy was able to turn 5-7th round draft pick into Pro Bowlers.

Meant to add that to my post thanks. While Zimmerman was a HOF OLINE guy the rest of the group were pretty much pedestrian in nature and Gibbs made them special..

Since Gibbs departure we have had an EX LB trying to teach Linemen how to block..

Makes sense to me!!!!!!!!!

The only guy left from the Gibbs era is Nalen. Perhaps he should be the OLINE coach..

[Ziggy]

Kuper, Pears, and Harris are all 300+

We certainly seem to be trending towards a larger line, but I don't see Denver abandoning the zone-blocking scheme during Shanahan's tenure. That's always going to leave us smaller than average.

I don't think we'll abandon the zone blocking scheme. I do think that we'll find bigger guys that can run it, like Montrae Holland. He's 320 but had the footwork to operate well in our scheme last year. I think the Broncos will be looking for those kind of guys. Kuper seems to be another, but the jury is still out on Pears and Harris. Pears had one good year and one bad. It will be interesting to see what he does this season.

[Lonestar]

Kuper, Pears, and Harris are all 300+

We certainly seem to be trending towards a larger line, but I don't see Denver abandoning the zone-blocking scheme during Shanahan's tenure. That's always going to leave us smaller than average.


Just because someone is over 315 pounds does not make them unable to ZBS..

The reason we have been able to be good at it was multi reasoned..

We have an excellent RB coach, we had a Snake type at QB for most of mikeys tenure here thus we have been for the most part been able to not get into the elite OT market, up front having to compete on day one for them..

Time are a changing and with the more traditional 5-7 step drop back passing offense that we are trying to do. We can no longer afford to live off of linemen that no one else wants and will have to start spending day one picks on them..


We are going to have to be both finesse and brute force depending on what we are doing power running inside the 5 pass blocking or ZBS outside the 20's.. Mini weight OT, OG are not going to make it from this point on consistently..

[Ziggy]

Just because someone is over 315 pounds does not make them unable to ZBS..

The reason we have been able to be good at it was multi reasoned..

We have an excellent RB coach, we had a Snake type at QB for most of mikeys tenure here thus we have been for the most part been able to not get into the elite OT market, up front having to compete on day one for them..

Time are a changing and with the more traditional 5-7 step drop back passing offense that we are trying to do. We can no longer afford to live off of linemen that no one else wants and will have to start spending day one picks on them..


We are going to have to be both finesse and brute force depending on what we are doing power running inside the 5 pass blocking or ZBS outside the 20's.. Mini weight OT, OG are not going to make it from this point on consistently..


Well said JR. I'm tired of hearing about how Denver has gotten by with undersized guys on the offensive line. We got through the Plummer years with them because the majority of the time he passed, he was either running a naked bootleg, rolling pocket, or quick slant. Plummer was a horrible pocket passer. Shanahan, made up for it by having Plummer constantly on the move on passing plays. Sooner or later though, the gimmicks run out and teams will defense them. In this league, you eventually have to be able to drop your QB back in the pocket, protect him, and throw the ball downfield. We've already seen that philosiphy being installed with Cutler. The problem is, we don't have the line to do it successfully, and Alex Gibbs is gone. There is a reason Shanahan brought in Montrae Holland. He said when he signed him that the line needs to get bigger to be able protect a quarterback in the pocket. We now have a pocket quarterback. He can scramble, but he's a guy that can drop back in the pocket and pick a defense apart when given the time. Let's give him time.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Just as bad as everyone elses pass protection would be if they lost 3 of their 5 starting offensive lineman for the season. Plus it doesn't help when you lose weapons on the offense like Henry and Walker either. 5 of the original 11 starters on offense almost 50% of the offense down to the injury bug and our offense still finished 11th overall in the entire NFL and only .9 yards per game from being a top 10 offense.

[r8rh8r]

Just because someone is over 315 pounds does not make them unable to ZBS..

The reason we have been able to be good at it was multi reasoned..

We have an excellent RB coach, we had a Snake type at QB for most of mikeys tenure here thus we have been for the most part been able to not get into the elite OT market, up front having to compete on day one for them..

Time are a changing and with the more traditional 5-7 step drop back passing offense that we are trying to do. We can no longer afford to live off of linemen that no one else wants and will have to start spending day one picks on them..


We are going to have to be both finesse and brute force depending on what we are doing power running inside the 5 pass blocking or ZBS outside the 20's.. Mini weight OT, OG are not going to make it from this point on consistently..

Denver will always place a premium on mobility. To some extent, this may always be a liability to the passer. But hey, this is why Shanahan insists on having a mobile quarterback. Remember the Griese experiement? Disaster.

Cutler might not have the wheels that Plummer has, but his pocket mobility is about as good as I've seen for a rookie. If you watch film on Tom Brady, he's not a mobile quarterback nor is he immune to pressure (see: Super Bowl), but his pocket mobility and awareness are off the chart. I would actually argue that pocket mobility is Brady's distinctive competency as a quarterback, the one thing he does better than anyone in NFL history. Cutler possess a similar intangible. He'll beat a pass rusher with footwork, all-the-while remaining focused on making the play.

I'll end the suspense with the Michael Vick question, as it seems to have been missed. Alex Gibbs built the offensive line in Atlanta--who is buried at the bottom of the league in terms of sacks per game and sack rate (1 sack per 11 pass attempts!). Some of you may recall that we retained Gibbs as a "consultant" for a year before he headed to Atlanta. Gibbs wanted the offensive line coach job and Shanahan said, "it's already filled by Rick Dennison." His last year in Atlanta, Vick was sacked a league-worst 47 times. He was fired by Petrino. How many hall of famers does Atlanta have on that line?

Gibbs will gladly come back to Denver. Be careful what you wish for...

Make no mistake about it: Rick Dennison is among the best in the business. We should all rue the day that Dennison gets hired away as a head coach.

[underrated29]

i think gibbs went to houston.

[r8rh8r]

i think gibbs went to houston.

Nope. Martz's O-Line coach from 2004-2005 joined Houston in 2006. Mike Sherman (former Packers HC) was their OC last year but he was let go.

Edit: I figured out what you mean. Gibbs was just hired by Houston in January. I didn't know that. Good info.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I don't know how much Nalen and Hamilton coming back will "help" the pass protection department. Hamilton has never been a strong pass blocker; and it's really not Nalen's forte either. They're not bad -- but they're not great at it either. The interior really wasn't a problem last year. Our tackle positions were a course of concern all year long.

Public Enemy #1 on the Broncos is Erik "Daniel Graham is my training wheels" Pears. Why that chump is penciled in as a starter is beyond me.

[r8rh8r]

I don't know how much Nalen and Hamilton coming back will "help" the pass protection department. Hamilton has never been a strong pass blocker; and it's really not Nalen's forte either. They're not bad -- but they're not great at it either. The interior really wasn't a problem last year. Our tackle positions were a course of concern all year long.

Public Enemy #1 on the Broncos is Erik "Daniel Graham is my training wheels" Pears. Why that chump is penciled in as a starter is beyond me.

I think if you look at the metrics in the article that started this thread, you'll have a hard time justifying that our offensive tackles were "the problem" last year. Combined, our tackles allowed 14.5 sacks last year. 5 sacks came against Houston and 3 sacks were by Aaron Kampman, who line's up at LDE (despite being better than most RDE's in the NFL). Save these two blemishes, the tackle position allowed .5 sacks per game. I can live with that...

With all the shuffling we had to do along the O-Line last year, I'm amazed we managed to finish as well as we did, considering the timing and teamwork involved in effective zone blocking.

[MOtorboat]

I think if you look at the metrics in the article that started this thread, you'll have a hard time justifying that our offensive tackles were "the problem" last year. Combined, our tackles allowed 14.5 sacks last year. 5 sacks came against Houston and 3 sacks were by Aaron Kampman, who line's up at LDE (despite being better than most RDE's in the NFL). Save these two blemishes, the tackle position allowed .5 sacks per game. I can live with that...

With all the shuffling we had to do along the O-Line last year, I'm amazed we managed to finish as well as we did, considering the timing and teamwork involved in effective zone blocking.

Except Lepsis is gone.

[r8rh8r]

Except Lepsis is gone.

Lepsis was gone in mid-October of last season. Again, if you look at the numbers with and without Lepsis, it's business as usual. It's all in the article.

Without Lepsis, our left tackle allowed sacks to the following players:

Freeny
Allen
Ogunleye
Castillo
Williams/Kalu

Again, other than the abomination (5 sacks) allowed against Houston, it's hard to get upset about Freeny, Allen, Ogunleye, and Castillo getting 1 sack against us. These guys get there sacks no matter who you have back there.

[Skinny]

Just because someone is over 315 pounds does not make them unable to ZBS..When Gibbs was coaching in Atl. 3 years ago, a young 330 pnd stud at guard named Justin Blalock was selected in the second round. He's fit the ZBS to a T and has been a anchor to that line ever since.

Gibbs said if he could find ones that are bigger than 300 pnds with the athletic ability to play his scheme, he'd pick them 10 times out of 10. Their just far and few in between.


Time are a changing and with the more traditional 5-7 step drop back passing offense that we are trying to do. We can no longer afford to live off of linemen that no one else wants and will have to start spending day one picks on them.. You hit the nail on the head here JR. A 'changing of the guard'. Its slowly taking place along the O-line and it's something to be concerned about.

Not putting a bigger emphasis on talent on day 1 along the O-line and not keeping guys like Eslinger, Myers, etc... on the roster after spending a couple of years in our scheme and learning it is a waste of time.

Then we turn around and end up spending another 6th and 7th round selection on the same type of player only to go through the whole process again?? :confused:

That's no way to build and sustain a good O-line ... not for us anyways ...

[r8rh8r]

When Gibbs was coaching in Atl. 3 years ago, a young 330 pnd stud at guard named Justin Blalock was selected in the second round. He's fit the ZBS to a T and has been a anchor to that line ever since.

Gibbs said if he could find ones that are bigger than 300 pnds with the athletic ability to play his scheme, he'd pick them 10 times out of 10. Their just far and few in between.You hit the nail on the head here JR. A 'changing of the guard'. Its slowly taking place along the O-line and it's something to be concerned about.

Not putting a bigger emphasis on talent on day 1 along the O-line and not keeping guys like Eslinger, Myers, etc... on the roster after spending a couple of years in our scheme and learning it is a waste of time.

Then we turn around and end up spending another 6th and 7th round selection on the same type of player only to go through the whole process again?? :confused:

That's no way to build and sustain a good O-line ... not for us anyways ...

Denver would have liked to retain Eslinger, but they mismanaged the situation. They also considered Myers to be a commodity. They knew they weren't willing to pay his market price and instead engineered a trade to get some value for him. We have practice-squad talent that Denver feels is just as capable as Myers. I don't really think that was a huge loss.

[Ziggy]

And let's not forget that sacks are a piss-poor indication of how the offensive line is actually doing. Look at the 4th reply to this thread as an example of why.

[r8rh8r]

Forgive me, but I don't see what you guys are fussing about in that video. The Oakland clip (4th clip) is the only one I see where our pass protection is defeated. Keep in mind, the offensive line is rarely trying to overpower the pass rusher; instead, they are trying to direct traffic to get Cutler time.

Take the deep pass against Jacksonville (3rd clip): Jacksonville is overloading the strong side to prevent Cutler from having a throwing lane for Marshall. Cutler has a pocket he can rest safely in; instead, he challenges the defensive end, leaves the pocket, and gets the ball to Marshall--who's beaten Rashean Mathis--before he succumbs to the pressure.

The second Jacksonville clip (7th clip), Jacs WLB blitzes, is selling the blitz before the play, and the running back runs right past the guy to try and set up a bubble screen. That's not an offensive line problem; that's a blitz protection problem. You think Matt Light is the best pass protector in NE? Watch 3rd-down-back Kevin Faulk sometime.

The Kansas City clip, Jared Allen defeats a block, but Cutler has enough time to throw the ball 40 yards down field; he's not "hurried." Keep in mind that a deep pass requires the maximum amount of time to execute. So looking primarily at these routes is not really indicative of our pass protection.

I think that we should be clear by what we mean when we throw around the term "hurried." A hurry is when the Quarterback is forced to make a throw because pressure has defeated the timing of the play. That happens twice in this video.

This assertion that Cutler is under pressure "every time" is false. Certainly the quarterback matters when you're talking about sacks (as we all saw in Ramsey's case last year); but Cutler isn't protecting himself out there. Like the article claims: the pass protection was average last season.

If you want to see what it looks like for a quarterback to have ZERO pass protection, watch some Michael Vick footage sometimes. Vick has .5 seconds to release the ball or run for life. It was almost comical. Does anyone here happen to know who the architect of his pass protection was?

Edit: Selvin Young is the genius the ignores the blitzer in the Jacksonville clip. What I wouldn't give to have a third down back that can block. It's also worth mentioning that Denver's line ranked 3rd in the NFL last year in YPC in the rushing game.

I did, and I responded. Maybe you can illuminate how Cutler is under pressure "every time" based on this film.

[Skinny]

Denver would have liked to retain Eslinger, but they mismanaged the situation. They also considered Myers to be a commodity. They knew they weren't willing to pay his market price and instead engineered a trade to get some value for him. We have practice-squad talent that Denver feels is just as capable as Myers. I don't really think that was a huge loss.Whether we get 6th round value for a 6th round pick for a guy who started at LG for 5 games, then slid over to play center for the last 11 games when Nalen got unjured last season in Myers, we'll see ... in about 3 years.

His knowledge of our ZBS and his versatility to play OG and C was a asset to the O-line, and he will be worth every penny Kubs Army is paying him, he's a 'plug-n-go' player for them. Now that does'nt mean he was worth that much to us, we're not your typical franchise when it comes to emphasis on O-linemen. Apperantly you and Mikey & Co. are on the same page here regarding Myers being expendable.

But i don't think Denver feels to good about the PS talent pertaining to the O-line and replacing Myers, they had to practically beg a 34 year old Casey Wiegmann out of retirement.

[Bronco9798]

If we rely on what we have on the roster right now and those guys can't run block, Cutler will be a mess and be picking himself up off the ground quite a bit. Also, the better protection, the less hurries and less interceptions. Screw last years numbers and what anybody analyzed about last year, they mean nothing.

[r8rh8r]

Whether we get 6th round value for a 6th round pick for a guy who started at LG for 5 games, then slid over to play center for the last 11 games when Nalen got unjured last season in Myers, we'll see ... in about 3 years.

His knowledge of our ZBS and his versatility to play OG and C was a asset to the O-line, and he will be worth every penny Kubs Army is paying him, he's a 'plug-n-go' player for them. Now that does'nt mean he was worth that much to us, we're not your typical franchise when it comes to emphasis on O-linemen. Apperantly you and Mikey & Co. are on the same page here regarding Myers being expendable.

But i don't think Denver feels to good about the PS talent pertaining to the O-line and replacing Myers, they had to practically beg a 34 year old Casey Wiegmann out of retirement.

Myer's was a RFA. Are you saying that you'd be happier to give Myers the contract that Houston gave him? Price is a component of value; not just quality. Elam was high quality, but the price was prohibitive. I don't know that we find a better player in this year's draft, but I think Myers was not a good value for his price. He's a backup player. Good depth, but a backup nonetheless. Why give him starter money?

[Bronco9798]

Harris is no better than a back up right now either. He has a lot to prove coming up during camps and the pre-season to establish himself as a mainstay to protect Cutler week in and week out for the long haul.

[Skinny]

Myer's was a RFA. Are you saying that you'd be happier to give Myers the contract that Houston gave him? Price is a component of value; not just quality. Elam was high quality, but the price was prohibitive. I don't know that we find a better player in this year's draft, but I think Myers was not a good value for his price. He's a backup player. Good depth, but a backup nonetheless. Why give him starter money?Because he was a starter (Albeit because Hamilton was on IR) and Nalen and Hamiltons careers are winding down.

Now he'll be the starting center for Houston.

The only reason he was a depth player here was because Nalen and Hamilton are our starters. Take those two guys out of the lineup and he starts as we seen.

Eventually your going to have to pay someone other than Nalen and Hamilton starter money. Why not a young guy you drafted and has been in your system for a couple of years. I mean, what was the purpose of drafting Myers in the first place?? Now were back to square one again looking to finding a replacement for both Nalen and Hamilton in short time.

If Denver handled their finances better, i beleive Myers and Elam are retained.

Kubs gave him 3 mil gauranteed on a 4 year 11 mil deal. That's about what, 2.75 mil a year?? (I suck at math) That's peanuts ...

[Hobe]

Meant to add that to my post thanks. While Zimmerman was a HOF OLINE guy the rest of the group were pretty much pedestrian in nature and Gibbs made them special..

Since Gibbs departure we have had an EX LB trying to teach Linemen how to block..

Makes sense to me!!!!!!!!!

The only guy left from the Gibbs era is Nalen. Perhaps he should be the OLINE coach..

You hit the nail on the head there!

Rick Dennison has been one Shanny’s projects sense he arrived. I remember reading some where that he was friends with Gibbs as well and that Gibbs when to Atlanta when he came out of retirement because he didn’t want to displace Dennison. However, I think Atlanta proved that it was not just Gibbs’ zone blocking scheme that made things work in Denver, but the marriage of Shanny’s version of the west coast offense and Gibbs blocking scheme.

I still wish we would get a real o-line coach instead of an old linebacker.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Ravens Jonathan Ogden 1st 4 1996
Rams Orlando Pace 1st 1 1997
Seahawks Walter Jones 1st 6 1997
Eagles William Thomas 1st 11 1998
Bears John Tait 1st 14 1999
Bucs Luke Petitgout 1st 19 1999
Redskins Chris Samuels 1st 3 2000
Lions Jeff Backus 1st 18 2001
Vikings Bryant McKinnie 1st 7 2002
Bengals Levi Jones 1st 10 2002
Panthers Jordan Gross 1st 8 2003
Raiders Kwame Harris 1st 26 2003
Dolphins Vernon Carey 1st 19 2004
Saints Jammal Brown 1st 13 2005
Jets D'Brickashaw Ferguson 1st 4 2006
Browns Joe Thomas 1st 3 2007
Buffalo Bills Jason Peters 3rd
Patriots Matt Light 2nd
Steelers Marvel Smith 2nd
Texans Ephraim Salaam 7th
Colts Tony Ugoh 2nd
Jaguars Khalif Barnes 2nd
Titans Michael Roos 2nd
Chiefs Damion McIntosh 3rd
Chargers Marcus McNeill 2nd
Cowboys Flozell Adams 2nd
Giants David Diehl 5th
Packers Chad Clifton 2nd
Falcons Renardo Foster undrafted
Cardinals Mike Gandy 3rd
49ers Jonas Jennings 3rd
Denver Ryan Harris 3rd

This is a list of every teams starting LT in the NFL.

16 of the 32 are 1st rounders

11 of the 16 1st rounders were the 1st lineman taken in their draft class

These are the guys who were 1st rounders but not the 1st taken in their class.....
Kwame Harris 3rd lineman selected
Vernon Carey 3rd lineman selected
Levi Jones 3rd lineman selected, top 10 pick
Bryant McKinnie 2nd lineman selected, top 10 pick
Jeff Backus 2nd lineman selected

[BOSSHOGG30]

If Denver goes OT at 12, we would probably be taking the 3rd or 4th best LT, putting us at pretty bad odds at getting that "franchise" LT.

If history tells us anything... we would be much better off selecting Brandon Alberts or another position and select our LT later.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I don't care how many sacks were allowed or what "metrics" say. Anyone who watched the Broncos last year realize how bad we were consistently beat off the edges, and how Daniel Graham instead of being able to help in the pass catching department, was made Erik Pears training wheels. Metrics don't tell the whole story. Denver's tackle play last year was pitiful.

[r8rh8r]

You hit the nail on the head there!

Rick Dennison has been one Shanny’s projects sense he arrived. I remember reading some where that he was friends with Gibbs as well and that Gibbs when to Atlanta when he came out of retirement because he didn’t want to displace Dennison. However, I think Atlanta proved that it was not just Gibbs’ zone blocking scheme that made things work in Denver, but the marriage of Shanny’s version of the west coast offense and Gibbs blocking scheme.

I still wish we would get a real o-line coach instead of an old linebacker.

Really, doesn't it seem somewhat ignorant to criticize a coach on the basis of the position he played as a player? Rick Dennison has been nothing short of outstanding in Denver. By any standard of measurement, he's been our most valued coach not named Gary Kubiak since Alex Gibbs "retired."

2007--Run Blocking Rank: 3rd; Pass Blocking Rank: 14th
2006--Run Blocking Rank: 18th; Pass Blocking Rank: 16th
2005--Run Blocking Rank: 2nd; Pass Blocking Rank: 7th
2004--Run Blocking Rank: 8th; Pass Blocking Rank: 3rd
2003--Run Blocking Rank: 10th; Pass Blocking Rank: 11th

The argument that Dennison is bad at his job is absurd.

Its also interesting to see that--despite all the injuries sustained--the unit was better both in terms of YPC and sack % in 2007 compared to 2006.

[r8rh8r]

If Denver goes OT at 12, we would probably be taking the 3rd or 4th best LT, putting us at pretty bad odds at getting that "franchise" LT.

If history tells us anything... we would be much better off selecting Brandon Alberts or another position and select our LT later.

I emphatically agree.

[r8rh8r]

...they had to practically beg a 34 year old Casey Wiegmann out of retirement.

We did? What leads you to believe we had to "beg" a lifetime Chief to play backup for 2 years?

[r8rh8r]

Denvers Pass Blocking Rank in 2007: 14th

Other teams Pass Blocking Rank:

St. Louis (Orlando Pace): 25th (with Pace healthy they were 21st in 2006)
Seattle (Walter Jones): 19th (2006 they were 28th)
Baltimore (Jonathan Ogden): 21st (2006 they were 1st)
Chicago (John Tait): 18th (2006 they were 5th)

Ergo, having a $60 million left tackle doesn't always translate into having great pass protection. For all the "we need Walter Jones or Orlando Pace" talk out there, they certainly anchor some crappy lines.

[MOtorboat]

Denvers Pass Blocking Rank in 2007: 14th

Other teams Pass Blocking Rank:

St. Louis (Orlando Pace): 25th (with Pace healthy they were 21st in 2006)
Seattle (Walter Jones): 19th (2006 they were 28th)
Baltimore (Jonathan Ogden): 21st (2006 they were 1st)
Chicago (John Tait): 18th (2006 they were 5th)

Ergo, having a $60 million left tackle doesn't always translate into having great pass protection. For all the "we need Walter Jones or Orlando Pace" talk out there, they certainly anchor some crappy lines.

No one is suggesting we spend $60 mil on a left tackle. We want to draft one at No. 12.

I'm curious, in the rankings that you found, where is Cleveland, the New York Jets, New Orleans, Arizona and San Francisco.

[Skinny]

We did? What leads you to believe we had to "beg" a lifetime Chief to play backup for 2 years?Sarcasm dude. He was considering retirement.

He played for the Bears before signing with KC. Just sayin ...

[r8rh8r]

New Orleans was 3rd; they've been top 5 the last 3 years I think.

Arizona was 15th in 2006 and 9th in 2007.

Cleveland went from 26th to 5th. They added 4 offensive lineman, including McKinney and Thomas.

The Jets were 30th after finishing 17th in 2006. Losing Pete Kendall undoubtedly had an impact.

[MOtorboat]

New Orleans was 3rd; they've been top 5 the last 3 years I think.

Arizona was 15th in 2006 and 9th in 2007.

Cleveland went from 26th to 5th. They added 4 offensive lineman, including McKinney and Thomas.

The Jets were 30th after finishing 17th in 2006. Losing Pete Kendall undoubtedly had an impact.

All drafted left tackles in the last two years.

[r8rh8r]

I'm not sure there is another team in the NFL that can lose 3 starters, including 2 of its best starters and still manage to boast the leagues 14th best sack rate. Without the whole left side of our line, we still managed to be "average."

SF lost Jonas Jennings; 32nd ranked.
Philly moved Shawn Andrews to LT; they drop to 21st ranked.
OAK finished 27th with Robert Gallery at RT.
Luke Petigout was supposed to be the savior in TB; they finished 24th after a 10th place finish in front of 4 different QB starters in 2006.
Detroit finished 26th with Backus.

I'm telling you, you don't need the best players to have the best O-Line. Without that superstar LT, Denver has managed to be better than average and often times exception with far less talent than the rest of the league.

[r8rh8r]

All drafted left tackles in the last two years.

I realize that, but those numbers are hardly an endorsement of drafting a LT. Jammal Brown has undoubtedly played well in New Orleans, but they also have a 5th rounder, a 4th rounder, a 2nd rounder, and an undrafted guard on that line. A lot of it is the system.

Joe Thomas was one of 3 pro bowl caliber guards added to Cleveland's line, so its hard to look at his marginal effect. Although he played brilliantly.

But let me say this: only one player in this year's draft has the ability to impact their team like Thomas or Brown, and that player is not available with the 12th pick.

[MOtorboat]

I realize that, but those numbers are hardly an endorsement of drafting a LT.

Want some more?

[r8rh8r]

Want some more?

How about HOU finishing 10th? Or Green Bay finishing 1st? Or the Giants finishing 11th? Or BUF finishing 13th?

There's absolutely no correlation between teams taking a tackle in round 1 and having a top-shelf pass blocking unit. Its a silly argument.

[MOtorboat]

How about HOU finishing 10th? Or Green Bay finishing 1st? Or the Giants finishing 11th? Or BUF finishing 13th?

There's absolutely no correlation between teams taking a tackle in round 1 and having a top-shelf pass blocking unit. Its a silly argument.

Not really.

Before this year's Super Bowl 14 of the last 22 LTs to play in the Super Bowl were drafted in the first round. 11 were drafted by the team they played with in the Super Bowl.

A silly argument is saying left tackle doesn't matter.

Correction: 14 of the last 22 in the first rounds, 18 of last 22 in first day. 11 Drafted by the team they played for. Either way, saying that drafting a left tackle in the first round is inconsequential is, well, not accurate.

[MOtorboat]

There is lots of good information about drafting good offensive lineman here (http://www.theprogramkc.com/toolbox.html), which is Soren Petro's web site in Kansas City. You'll see the Super Bowl Left Tackles spreadsheet as well as Playoff Offensive Lineman spreadsheet.

[Ziggy]

I'm telling you, you don't need the best players to have the best O-Line. Without that superstar LT, Denver has managed to be better than average and often times exception with far less talent than the rest of the league.

I don't think Denver fans really want to be better than average. We want to win Super Bowls. People forget just how good our O-line was during the superbowl years. Zimmerman was a hall of fame player, and Tony Jones was also a pro bowler the year he played LT in the Super Bowl. Do you have to have pro bowl left tackles to win Super Bowls? Not necessarily, but in the Super Bowl the Broncos are 0-4 without a dominant O-line and pro bowl left tackle, and 2-0 with them.

[MOtorboat]

I don't think Denver fans really want to be better than average. We want to win Super Bowls. People forget just how good our O-line was during the superbowl years. Zimmerman was a hall of fame player, and Tony Jones was also a pro bowler the year he played LT in the Super Bowl. Do you have to have pro bowl left tackles to win Super Bowls? Not necessarily, but in the Super Bowl the Broncos are 0-4 without a dominant O-line and pro bowl left tackle, and 2-0 with them.

It matters. We need to draft a stud LT.

[Retired_Member_001]

An offense is only as good as it's offensive line. This is true most of the time. I'm seriously worried that we are going to cut several years off of Cutler's career with our scrubs for offensive lineman. The guy has to throw the ball so quickly after taking the snap it is unbelievable. I really hope we take an offensive lineman in day one this year, there is so much depth at OT in this draft we would have to be stupid (wait, Shanahan IS stupid) not to take one.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I don't care how many sacks were allowed or what "metrics" say. Anyone who watched the Broncos last year realize how bad we were consistently beat off the edges, and how Daniel Graham instead of being able to help in the pass catching department, was made Erik Pears training wheels. Metrics don't tell the whole story. Denver's tackle play last year was pitiful.

Rams struggled without Steven Jackson and Orlando Pace. Saints struggled without Deuce McCallister. Chiefs struggled without William Roaf. Bears struggled without Tommie Harris. Titans struggled without Albert Hanyesworth.

Fact is when you lose starters is hurts. When you lose more than one starter you really hurt. When you lose three starters on the offensive line and you have to move guys around like the Broncos did...you are going to have struggles.

Pears - 25 years old
Harris - 23 years old
Kuper - 25 years old

This is there age right now... you have to remember we are talking about last year... these guys are super young, raw, and had big shoes to feel with very short notice.

11th overall offense still managed.

Our offensive line isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. They will be much improved this year with another year under their belt. All we need is some depth in case we suffer more injuries like last year.

[r8rh8r]

Not really.

Before this year's Super Bowl 18 of the last 22 LTs to play in the Super Bowl were drafted in the first round. 14 were drafted by the team they played with in the Super Bowl.

A silly argument is saying left tackle doesn't matter.

I never made any such argument.

New York Giants (2007): LT Dan Dheil, 5th Rounder
Pittsburgh (2006): LT Marvel Smith, 2nd Rounder
New England (2005): LT Matt Light, 2nd Rounder
New England (2004): LT Matt Light, 2nd Rounder
Tampa Bay (2003): LT Roman Oben, 3rd Rounder
New England (2002): LT Matt Light, 2nd Rounder
Jonathan Ogden (2001)
Orlando Pace (2000)
Gary Zimmerman (1999)
Gary Zimmerman (1998)
Green Bay Packers (1997): LT Bruce Wilkerson (who took the job from 1st rounder John Michels week 10), 2nd Rounder
Dallas Cowboys (1996): LT Erik Williams, 3rd Rounder
San Fran (1995): LT Steve Wallace, 4th Rounder
Cowboys (1994): LT Erik Williams, 3rd Rounder
Cowboys (1993): LT Erik Williams, 3rd Rounder

I think you've been misinformed.

[Retired_Member_001]

Rams struggled without Steven Jackson and Orlando Pace. Saints struggled without Deuce McCallister. Chiefs struggled without William Roaf. Bears struggled without Tommie Harris. Titans struggled without Albert Hanyesworth.

Fact is when you lose starters is hurts. When you lose more than one starter you really hurt. When you lose three starters on the offensive line and you have to move guys around like the Broncos did...you are going to have struggles.

Pears - 25 years old
Harris - 23 years old
Kuper - 25 years old

This is there age right now... you have to remember we are talking about last year... these guys are super young, raw, and had big shoes to feel with very short notice.

11th overall offense still managed.

Our offensive line isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. They will be much improved this year with another year under their belt. All we need is some depth in case we suffer more injuries like last year.

The problem is that those guys (Pears, Kuper ect) are supposed to be the FUTURE of this offensive line. Now if they struggled this season big time, what indication is there that they will be better next season? Erik Pears was one of the worst starting right tackles in the league last season and questions will still remain about Chris Kuper untill he shows up.

At Left Tackle who do we really have? Ryan Harris? He's unproven. Erik Pears? Why not break Cutler's leg now.

The offensive line is as bad as people make it out to be.

[r8rh8r]

The problem is that those guys (Pears, Kuper ect) are supposed to be the FUTURE of this offensive line. Now if they struggled this season big time, what indication is there that they will be better next season? Erik Pears was one of the worst starting right tackles in the league last season and questions will still remain about Chris Kuper untill he shows up.

At Left Tackle who do we really have? Ryan Harris? He's unproven. Erik Pears? Why not break Cutler's leg now.

The offensive line is as bad as people make it out to be.

How was Pears the worst in the league? Denver averaged 4.3 yards per carry running to the right and the RT allowed 5.5 sacks all year--3 of them to Aaron Kampman.

[MOtorboat]

I never made any such argument.

New York Giants (2007): LT Dan Dheil, 5th Rounder
Pittsburgh (2006): LT Marvel Smith, 2nd Rounder
New England (2005): LT Matt Light, 2nd Rounder
New England (2004): LT Matt Light, 2nd Rounder
Tampa Bay (2003): LT Roman Oben, 3rd Rounder
New England (2002): LT Matt Light, 2nd Rounder
Jonathan Ogden (2001)
Orlando Pace (2000)
Gary Zimmerman (1999)
Gary Zimmerman (1998)
Green Bay Packers (1997): LT Bruce Wilkerson (who took the job from 1st rounder John Michels week 10), 2nd Rounder
Dallas Cowboys (1996): LT Erik Williams, 3rd Rounder
San Fran (1995): LT Steve Wallace, 4th Rounder
Cowboys (1994): LT Erik Williams, 3rd Rounder
Cowboys (1993): LT Erik Williams, 3rd Rounder

I think you've been misinformed.

No, you misread my post, and you didn't look at the spreadsheets I offered. Go back and read before you try to tell some one they are wrong.

Can you piece together an offensive line? Yeah. But...only two LTs to win a Super Bowl in 14 years were drafted in the fourth round or later. Right now, we've got a fourth-rounder slotted to play.

Don't tell me that LT doesn't matter. We need to draft a LT. We are not "fine."

[Ziggy]

Rams struggled without Steven Jackson and Orlando Pace. Saints struggled without Deuce McCallister. Chiefs struggled without William Roaf. Bears struggled without Tommie Harris. Titans struggled without Albert Hanyesworth.

Fact is when you lose starters is hurts. When you lose more than one starter you really hurt. When you lose three starters on the offensive line and you have to move guys around like the Broncos did...you are going to have struggles.

Pears - 25 years old
Harris - 23 years old
Kuper - 25 years old

This is there age right now... you have to remember we are talking about last year... these guys are super young, raw, and had big shoes to feel with very short notice.

11th overall offense still managed.

Our offensive line isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. They will be much improved this year with another year under their belt. All we need is some depth in case we suffer more injuries like last year.

Who cares? Why is everyone stuck on this 11th ranked offense stat? That ranking is purely based on yards. Let's look at what really matters for an offense:

1. POINTS- Denver ranked 21st
2. Controlling The Game- Just not happening with the Broncos offense

Now keep in mind also that we gained a lot of those yards because our defense was giving up 25.6 points a game and teams were sitting back in a zone defense giving up the short plays. One of the reason our defense gave up 25.6 points a game is because the offense couldn't stay on the field. Look beyond the yardage rankings and you'll see a different story. Our offense was nowhere near the 11th best in the NFL.

[r8rh8r]

I'm not sure how you've misconstrued my argument into "LT doesn't matter." I've never said that or implied it.

[Retired_Member_001]

How was Pears the worst in the league? Denver averaged 4.3 yards per carry running to the right and the RT allowed 5.5 sacks all year--3 of them to Aaron Kampman.

See there you go again.

Sacks mean nothing when Cutler is throwing the ball away as soon as he snaps the ball. Cutler is making the offensive line look good on paper because he can get rid of the ball extremely well. Put nearly any other Quarterback in the league behind our offensive line and it would be an ENTIRELY different story.

[MOtorboat]

I'm not sure how you've misconstrued my argument into "LT doesn't matter." I've never said that or implied it.

No, you've essentially stated that we're OK, and that we're fine. We're not. We've got two really aging vets and a retired LT.

Did you re-read my information, or are you just not going to bother?

[Bronco9798]

I'm not sure how you've misconstrued my argument into "LT doesn't matter." I've never said that or implied it.

Your numbers imply nothing either. Numbers are over rated. Different situations/circumstances can make numbers so unreliable. Bottom line, we need work, players, depth, on our O Line. Right now it is basically unproven in several areas. last years numbers mean basically nothing.

[r8rh8r]

Who cares? Why is everyone stuck on this 11th ranked offense stat? That ranking is purely based on yards. Let's look at what really matters for an offense:

1. POINTS- Denver ranked 21st
2. Controlling The Game- Just not happening with the Broncos offense

Now keep in mind also that we gained a lot of those yards because our defense was giving up 25.6 points a game and teams were sitting back in a zone defense giving up the short plays. One of the reason our defense gave up 25.6 points a game is because the offense couldn't stay on the field. Look beyond the yardage rankings and you'll see a different story. Our offense was nowhere near the 11th best in the NFL.

I completely agree. Getting a better run defense and some more play-makers on offense are our highest priority. Cutler to Marshall just isn't enough to overwhelm opponents. Marshall received 102 of 294 pass completions last year. Insane.

[MOtorboat]

I completely agree. Getting a better run defense and some more play-makers on offense are our highest priority. Cutler to Marshall just isn't enough to overwhelm opponents. Marshall received 102 of 294 pass attempts last year. Insane.

Starts with O-line, and ours sucks.

[r8rh8r]

No, you've essentially stated that we're OK, and that we're fine. We're not. We've got two really aging vets and a retired LT.

Did you re-read my information, or are you just not going to bother?

I see now that the spreadsheet meant that 18 of the last 22 LT's who played in a Super Bowl boasted a 1st round LT. The information I posted showed that only 4 out of the last 15 super bowl champions had first round LT. I don't think the round you take a tackle in is especially correlated with going to a Super Bowl. I get your point; I just don't agree.

[Retired_Member_001]

I see now that the spreadsheet meant that 18 of the last 22 LT's who played in a Super Bowl boasted a 1st round LT. The information I posted showed that only 4 out of the last 15 super bowl champions had first round LT. I don't think the round you take a tackle in is especially correlated with going to a Super Bowl. I get your point; I just don't agree.

The offensive line is the core of an offense. A left tackle is the building block for an offensive line. Drafting an elite LT boosts the core of your offense. Therefore picking a good offensive lineman in the 1st round typically makes your team much better.

[Simple Jaded]

Who? :lol:

Denver's O-line is going to be in shambles this coming year if things don't pan out with Nalen's arm/age, Hamilton's head, Harris, Kuper and Pears et al as blockers as they are all question marks. It's a legitimate concern, IMO, and the stats don't really show the whole picture.

They never do! People only post stats that support their point of view, stats that somebody else is giving them, but ignore the rest as if they don't exist......My favorite: "The Adjusted Gross/Chris Myers Sucked Paradigm".

What people may be missing in those sack statistics is that Denver runs a lot of 3/5 step drops and shotgun......they HAVE to run a lot of 3/5 step drops and shotgun to buy extra time for Cutler!

But hey, as long as Denver is setting records in rushing (Meaningless), who cares about pass protection?

So let me have, True Believers, tell me how I know nothing......but remember to use small words, as apparently I have difficulty learning, it's my Achilles Heel...:D...

[Lonestar]

They never do! People only post stats that support their point of view, stats that somebody else is giving them, but ignore the rest as if they don't exist......My favorite: "The Adjusted Gross/Chris Myers Sucked Paradigm".

What people may be missing in those sack statistics is that Denver runs a lot of 3/5 step drops and shotgun......they HAVE to run a lot of 3/5 step drops and shotgun to buy extra time for Cutler!

But hey, as long as Denver is setting records in rushing, who cares about pass protection?

So let me have, True Believers, tell me how I know nothing......but remember to use small words, as apparently I have difficulty learning, it's my Achilles Heel...:D...

As long as those records are set between the 20's I DO..

We no longer have mister automatic to bail us out when we stall..

Mikey is trying to run more 5-7 step drops and this feather weight OLINE is not going to hack those.. Which means NO DEEP Routes unless your QB is running for his life..


There is no absoluter that says an elite LT can't do the ZBS as well as pass protect.. in fact it is more likely he can.. And most likely he is going to be 310 pounds plus..

[Ziggy]

Let's give Shanny some credit here. His coaching is pure genius. He has made up for light, inadequate lines for years by rolling the pocket, short drops, and quick slants. Put this offensive line in the hands of most other coaches, and you're looking at 1-15 to 7-9 records every season. Mike SHanahan the coach is brilliant. Mike Shanahan the Gm leaves a lot to be desired.

[r8rh8r]

The offensive line is the core of an offense. A left tackle is the building block for an offensive line. Drafting an elite LT boosts the core of your offense. Therefore picking a good offensive lineman in the 1st round typically makes your team much better.

Having a quality LT makes your offensive line good. I agree. I don't, however, agree that you have to spend a first round pick to get one. We have 3 guys under 25-years-old right now. I'm unconvinced that the solution isn't on our team. Lepsis was undrafted and we have a 2nd year player who was taking 68th in last year's draft.

[Simple Jaded]

As long as those records are set between the 20's I DO..

We no longer have mister automatic to bail us out when we stall..

Mikey is trying to run more 5-7 step drops and this feather weight OLINE is not going to hack those.. Which means NO DEEP Routes unless your QB is running for his life..


There is no absoluter that says an elite LT can't do the ZBS as well as pass protect.. in fact it is more likely he can.. And most likely he is going to be 310 pounds plus..


Which kinda gives me a chuckle when people (Myself included) talk about drafting a deep threat to open things up for Marshall when the Broncos don't have the lineman or coaching to protect Cutler......

[Ziggy]

Having a quality LT makes your offensive line good. I agree. I don't, however, agree that you have to spend a first round pick to get one. We have 3 guys under 25-years-old right now. I'm unconvinced that the solution isn't on our team. Lepsis was undrafted and we have a 2nd year player who was taking 68th in last year's draft.

I'd love for you to be right about Harris, but back injuries and sports careers don't mix. Especially for lineman in the NFL.

[r8rh8r]

Let's give Shanny some credit here. His coaching is pure genius. He has made up for light, inadequate lines for years by rolling the pocket, short drops, and quick slants. Put this offensive line in the hands of most other coaches, and you're looking at 1-15 to 7-9 records every season. Mike SHanahan the coach is brilliant. Mike Shanahan the Gm leaves a lot to be desired.

I agree. Shanahan has brilliantly hidden the talent deficiencies in many, many phases of the game in Denver. He's made two tragically flawed quarterbacks (Griese, Plummer) into pro bowlers. He's made undrafted Matt Lepsis into a star. He's fielded a top 10 running game almost every year since Elway retired, with guys who could barely make the roster for other clubs. He turned a decidedly average Al Wilson into a perennial pro bowler. The list goes on.

Shanahan seems to have learned in recent years that there are some positions you can't coach out of ineptitude. Namely, you've got to either have a great pass rush to protect your crappy defensive backs or a great set of defensive backs to make up for your crappy pass rush. Great teams have both.

I think the Keary Colbert experiment will be a success; I think the run defense will be fixed by 2009; and I think the offensive line will continue to be the most valuable in the league--in terms of what it costs us and what we get out of it.

Pro Football Weekly reported today that since 2003, Denver has drafted 5 guys who are currently starters--4 of them from the class of 2006. San Diego has drafted 14, including 6 pro bowlers. No matter how good Shanahan the coach is, if Shanahan the GM doesn't find a way to close this gap, we are going to be playing second fiddle to A.J. Smith for a long, long time.

[Lonestar]

Pro Football Weekly reported today that since 2003, Denver has drafted 5 guys who are currently starters--4 of them from the class of 2006. San Diego has drafted 14, including 6 pro bowlers. No matter how good Shanahan the coach is, if Shanahan the GM doesn't find a way to close this gap, we are going to be playing second fiddle to A.J. Smith for a long, long time.

IMHO it is time to hire a quality GM.. Just think of how good this team would be if we had a A.J. Smith type on the payroll..


How much dead cap space might we have available for actual players each year?

Maybe the salary cap would not be an issues and we could consistently win being 5-10 mil under each year..

Maybe we could afford to not being cutting Front office and coaching staff .. wonders would never cease..

[r8rh8r]

IMHO it is time to hire a quality GM.. Just think of how good this team would be if we had a A.J. Smith type on the payroll..


How much dead cap space might we have available for actual players each year?

Maybe the salary cap would not be an issues and we could consistently win being 5-10 mil under each year..

Maybe we could afford to not being cutting Front office and coaching staff .. wonders would never cease..

I think there is a revolution occurring in the field of personnel management in the NFL. Guys like A.J. Smith, Ted Thompson, and Bill Polian are flat out better at drafting than the competition. Their prodigies are starting to get hired away by other teams.

Any undergraduate text book on business strategy will tell you that when a competitor has a superior strategy you either replicate their strategy, counter with a better one, or perish.

Denver has made some bad picks and had some bad luck. Truthfully, I don't think Shanahan or his staff have become "bad" at drafting. I just think the competition has surpassed them and Denver seems to be late to adjust. 2006 was a great draft, but I think we regressed last year. The longer Denver stays committed to an inferior strategy, the harder it will be to dig ourselves out of a hole in the future.

[Ziggy]

Shanahan will move on before he hires a full time GM and gives him complete control of personel. His ego just won't allow himself to be demoted in any area of operations.

[Simple Jaded]

Let's give Shanny some credit here. His coaching is pure genius. He has made up for light, inadequate lines for years by rolling the pocket, short drops, and quick slants. Put this offensive line in the hands of most other coaches, and you're looking at 1-15 to 7-9 records every season. Mike SHanahan the coach is brilliant. Mike Shanahan the Gm leaves a lot to be desired.

Completely agree.

But it's Mike Shanahan the coach that wants these Mini-Me offensive lineman, it's not like he's forced to make chicken soup out of the chicken shit somebody else shopped for......

[Lonestar]

Shanahan will move on before he hires a full time GM and gives him complete control of personel. His ego just won't allow himself to be demoted in any area of operations.

I think there can be a happy balance. Hey AJ I need a DT, LB, FS and if their is a good one an OLT.. Go fetch..

Then allow the professional make the choice on draft day, after talking to the position coaches....


Mikey does not tell the doctors what to do or I'd hope he does not, nor Greek..

Just do not see the issue other than total EGO.. If the GM does not get the job done and is the one responsible to lousy picks you fire him.. And you get another one Probably even an experienced one..

[Lonestar]

Completely agree.

But it's Mike Shanahan the coach that wants these Mini-Me offensive lineman, it's not like he's forced to make chicken soup out of the chicken shit somebody else shopped for......

He has felt it has worked for years.. he got by with it times IMO are changing I think he saw it the year before on the DLine or it was part of Bate's deal to come here.. I think he saw what the great DL could do to a damned fine OLINE in the Superbowl.. We will see if he takes a OT on day one?

If he does he learned something, if not IMO he sealed his own fate..

[r8rh8r]

If Denver were in the enviable position of retaining a big name GM like a Polian or Smith, I think Shanahan would step aside. I've never seen anything to corroborate the media's portrayal of Shanahan as an ego-crazed dictator.

The problem with finding a great GM is the same problem Shanahan has with retaining great offensive coordinators: if the offense does well, its because of Shanahan, not his coaches (as is painfully obvious from all the ill-informed hate speech directed towards Rick Dennison). Because Shanahan has the final say, no GM is ever going to make a good career move by going to Denver. Why would you? If you do a great job, Shanahan gets the credit; if you do a lousy job, you get fired. Its not a healthy dynamic and it costs Denver in the long run.

[Simple Jaded]

I think there can be a happy balance. Hey AJ I need a DT, LB, FS and if their is a good one an OLT.. Go fetch..

Then allow the professional make the choice on draft day, after talking to the position coaches....


Mikey does not tell the doctors what to do or I'd hope he does not, nor Greek..

Just do not see the issue other than total EGO.. If the GM does not get the job done and is the one responsible to lousy picks you fire him.. And you get another one Probably even an experienced one..

The obvious problem I see is that Shanahan actually likes players like Chris Myers, while most GM's know he's a scrub......A real GM could bring in an Orlando Pace V2.0, but Shanahan would probably cut him before TC starts if he could (Of course I'm not totally serious, True Believers, calm down).

Same goes for RB's and FB's.

The point is, Shanahan has different standards (Low! Very low!) than most GM's, he wouldn't know what to do with himself if he had other peoples players......

[Hobe]

I don’t understand why so many are just dismissing Ryan. If we draft an LT we probably won’t see him on the field this year. I personally kind of like the idea of drafting Albert. It could develop into a very strong left side. However, if they do draft Albert, I bet you won’t see him much next season.

[r8rh8r]

I don’t understand why so many are just dismissing Ryan. If we draft an LT we probably won’t see him on the field this year. I personally kind of like the idea of drafting Albert. It could develop into a very strong left side. However, if they do draft Albert, I bet you won’t see him much next season.

Albert would be an attractive addition because of his versatility. Having someone who can immediately fill out the depth chart at guard who can develop into a top shelf tackle would arguably buy us a roster slot and be an immediate talent upgrade. Problem is, I don't like spending 12th round money on that guy.

[Hobe]

Albert would be an attractive addition because of his versatility. Having someone who can immediately fill out the depth chart at guard who can develop into a top shelf tackle would arguably buy us a roster slot and be an immediate talent upgrade. Problem is, I don't like spending 12th round money on that guy.

To be honest I don’t think Albert would move to tackle. Guard skills and tackle skills are different. Guards pull and trap and go after LBs a lot more then tackles. Off-side tackles are not expected to lead sweeps around the other end. I think Albert will be a good, maybe great, NFL guard. It would be nice if it is in Denver.

[Simple Jaded]

Personally, I dismiss Ryan Harris because he's a 3rd round talent with back issues that missed all but 11 weeks of the entire year......training camp through week5, meaning he'd have a whopping 11week head start (including one snap on offense) over a more talented rookie.

When you're drafting a LT in the 1st round, you're also improving RT if Harris can play there, and considering Pears will be unrestricted (And still thoroughly ordinary) at this time next year, that might be the way to go......

[Npba900]

For the most part, I'm in agreement that our O line is an issue. However, I'd like to pick up on an aspect that not talked about much and its an area Shanahan hit upon/or commented about.

Shanahan was asked about Jay's development and improvement for this season and Mike said the most glaring area Jay had to improve upon was recognizing the importance of reading down to throw the short route to the WR in flat or safety valve pass.

Should Jay be able to improve in this area of hitting the safety valve dump off pass, this will help with the maturity process for the left tackle spot as well as lesson Jay chances of getting sacked.

Basically, Shanahan was saying there were times Jay held on to the ball to long in the hopes of trying to go for the big gain, thus opening up the chances for sacks or forcing the ball and the ball is intercepted or incomplete.

Hitting the short pass to the safety valve WR addresses the problems of an inexpericed LT and unproven O line b/c making a quick short yardage completion takes the pressure of an inexperienced O Lline need to hold their blocks.

There's no doubt Jay can complete the long ball and intermediate passes down the seams. The only crucial element missing from Jay's came is his discipline to recognize and find the the correct WR to throw the dump off pass to.

However, on the bright side, its nice to know that Jay has progressed exceptionally well to only needing to correct his reads and discipline to throw to a dump off receiver with this 08 being his second year as a full time starter. Things could be worst......Right?

[Ziggy]

For the most part, I'm in agreement that our O line is an issue. However, I'd like to pick up on an aspect that not talked about much and its an area Shanahan hit upon/or commented about.

Shanahan was asked about Jay's development and improvement for this season and Mike said the most glaring area Jay had to improve upon was recognizing the importance of reading down to throw the short route to the WR in flat or safety valve pass.

Should Jay be able to improve in this area of hitting the safety valve dump off pass, this will help with the maturity process for the left tackle spot as well as lesson Jay chances of getting sacked.

Basically, Shanahan was saying there were times Jay held on to the ball to long in the hopes of trying to go for the big gain, thus opening up the chances for sacks or forcing the ball and the ball is intercepted or incomplete.

Hitting the short pass to the safety valve WR addresses the problems of an inexpericed LT and unproven O line b/c making a quick short yardage completion takes the pressure of an inexperienced O Lline need to hold their blocks.

There's no doubt Jay can complete the long ball and intermediate passes down the seams. The only crucial element missing from Jay's came is his discipline to recognize and find the the correct WR to throw the dump off pass to.

However, on the bright side, its nice to know that Jay has progressed exceptionally well to only needing to correct his reads and discipline to throw to a dump off receiver with this 08 being his second year as a full time starter. Things could be worst......Right?


You make a great point, but I think there were many times that Jay didn't have time to read down. The dumpoff pass, safety valve, outlet, or whatever you want to call it is usually the 3rd or 4th read. There's just too many times with this line that Jay didn't have time to get to that 3rd or 4th read before he had someone in his face.

[Nature Boy]

I don't see any contradiction there............JR says we went after Jake because of his mobility, and that was a major factor in the low sack totals of 05..............



Apologies to Jwiz, when he said Mikey went after Jake, I thought he meant Mikey blamed Jake for the teams' 3-4 game losing skid that cost him his job in 2006. Got ahead of myself as I only see criticism and pessimism from Broncos fans when regarding Jake. Jake never lost his bad rep stemming from his Arizona days and it followed him to Denver since day 1 when he landed in Colorado. He never had a fair shake, anything short of a Lombardi trophy was a failure for Plummer in Denver.

[Ziggy]

Apologies to Jwiz, when he said Mikey went after Jake, I thought he meant Mikey blamed Jake for the teams' 3-4 game losing skid that cost him his job in 2006. Got ahead of myself as I only see criticism and pessimism from Broncos fans when regarding Jake. Jake never lost his bad rep stemming from his Arizona days and it followed him to Denver since day 1 when he landed in Colorado. He never had a fair shake, anything short of a Lombardi trophy was a failure for Plummer in Denver.

I can't speak for all Bronco fans, just myself. My problem with Jake had nothing to do with his days in Arizona. My problem with Jake was that he was useless in the pocket. He was a great QB on the run, but absolutely horrid in the pocket. All that teams defending him had to do was stay at home on the bootlegs and keep him in the pocket and the interceptions were sure to follow. We won a grand total of 1 playoff game with Jake. Sorry but that's not good enough in Denver.

[Nature Boy]

Ziggy, that 1 playoff game we won was against Tom Brady and the Patsies in 2005. That says something doesn't it?

Against the eventual SB champs that year, we were in that game til the 4th quarter. Who's fault was it more? Jake Plummer's or the defense that allowed Ben Rothfinburger to look like a Hall of Famer?

[r8rh8r]

For the most part, I'm in agreement that our O line is an issue. However, I'd like to pick up on an aspect that not talked about much and its an area Shanahan hit upon/or commented about.

Shanahan was asked about Jay's development and improvement for this season and Mike said the most glaring area Jay had to improve upon was recognizing the importance of reading down to throw the short route to the WR in flat or safety valve pass.

Should Jay be able to improve in this area of hitting the safety valve dump off pass, this will help with the maturity process for the left tackle spot as well as lesson Jay chances of getting sacked.

Basically, Shanahan was saying there were times Jay held on to the ball to long in the hopes of trying to go for the big gain, thus opening up the chances for sacks or forcing the ball and the ball is intercepted or incomplete.

Hitting the short pass to the safety valve WR addresses the problems of an inexpericed LT and unproven O line b/c making a quick short yardage completion takes the pressure of an inexperienced O Lline need to hold their blocks.

There's no doubt Jay can complete the long ball and intermediate passes down the seams. The only crucial element missing from Jay's came is his discipline to recognize and find the the correct WR to throw the dump off pass to.

However, on the bright side, its nice to know that Jay has progressed exceptionally well to only needing to correct his reads and discipline to throw to a dump off receiver with this 08 being his second year as a full time starter. Things could be worst......Right?

This is the exact same problem Elway had.

[BOSSHOGG30]

There is a lot to blame for the problems we had on the edges last year, but nothing to get all worried about.

Jay needs to take the short stuff sometimes and let his guys make plays.

Our running backs need to do a better job of chipping and bumping before they go out on routes... help the OT out a little bit.

Our offensive linemen need a chance to develop at one position instead of being moved around all the time. Similar to D.J. Williams at linebacker.

Play calling and audible recognition needs to improve. As Cutler learns defenses he can call better audible to help himself or the running back out.

[Ziggy]

Ziggy, that 1 playoff game we won was against Tom Brady and the Patsies in 2005. That says something doesn't it?

Against the eventual SB champs that year, we were in that game til the 4th quarter. Who's fault was it more? Jake Plummer's or the defense that allowed Ben Rothfinburger to look like a Hall of Famer?

Of course it wasn't all Jake Plummer's fault, but I'd have to say that his 2 interceptions and 2 fumbles had A LOT to do with the loss. All we needed him to do was not lose the game. Just controll the clock and not turn the ball over. He couldn't. The defense was partly to blame, but when your quarterback gives the other team the ball 4 times in 1 game, you have next to no chance.

[r8rh8r]

Ziggy, that 1 playoff game we won was against Tom Brady and the Patsies in 2005. That says something doesn't it?

Against the eventual SB champs that year, we were in that game til the 4th quarter. Who's fault was it more? Jake Plummer's or the defense that allowed Ben Rothfinburger to look like a Hall of Famer?

Of course it wasn't all Jake Plummer's fault, but I'd have to say that his 2 interceptions and 2 fumbles had A LOT to do with the loss. All we needed him to do was not lose the game. Just controll the clock and not turn the ball over. He couldn't. The defense was partly to blame, but when your quarterback gives the other team the ball 4 times in 1 game, you have next to no chance.

Jake played that game with the stomach flu. I think it was bad luck.

[Lonestar]

I can't speak for all Bronco fans, just myself. My problem with Jake had nothing to do with his days in Arizona. My problem with Jake was that he was useless in the pocket. He was a great QB on the run, but absolutely horrid in the pocket. All that teams defending him had to do was stay at home on the bootlegs and keep him in the pocket and the interceptions were sure to follow. We won a grand total of 1 playoff game with Jake. Sorry but that's not good enough in Denver.

Considering that this particular game just exposed everything to do with the pass blocking scheme as well as our defensive ineptitude. IS it so much Jakes issue or someone figured out really how bad we were, that mikey was winning with smoke and mirrors..

After that mikey asked/forced Jake to try and be someone he is not, a pocket passer.. Never has been one.

Plus do not forget Ben must have set some kind of NFL record in making 3rd and longs that day.. Coyers bend but do not break defense.. BROKE THAT DAY!!

Once PIT beat us the word was out. Mikeys house of cards started to crumble to where it is today..

[Lonestar]

Of course it wasn't all Jake Plummer's fault, but I'd have to say that his 2 interceptions and 2 fumbles had A LOT to do with the loss. All we needed him to do was not lose the game. Just controll the clock and not turn the ball over. He couldn't. The defense was partly to blame, but when your quarterback gives the other team the ball 4 times in 1 game, you have next to no chance.

Yep Jake played a bad game that day, but remember that most of the time he had a LB or DE in his face every play, in some cases they were back in the pocket before he was..

PIT was ready for the game, we the entire team was not.

Frankly the OLINE still has not recovered IMO..

[Ziggy]

I think Pittsburgh was the first team that year not to bite on the naked bootleg that the Broncos offense lived off of. They showed the rest of the league how to beat the Broncos, and that was the end of Plummer. The 'smoke and mirrors' were exposed as you say, and our offensive line was left to block on pure talent and ability. What the Broncos found out was that the talent and ability was severely lacking in that offensive line. And yes, that was when the line was healthy.

[Npba900]

You make a great point, but I think there were many times that Jay didn't have time to read down. The dumpoff pass, safety valve, outlet, or whatever you want to call it is usually the 3rd or 4th read. There's just too many times with this line that Jay didn't have time to get to that 3rd or 4th read before he had someone in his face.

Good points. I just have to hope that last years O Line performance was due to injures of the veteran O linemen and the learning curve from their replacements. Lets hope our veteran O-linemen stay healthy and the linemen who started last year are ready to step up to become full time starters.

What choice do we have....b/c Shanahan believes the core group of O Linemen are good enough to get the job done.

[Nature Boy]

Of course it wasn't all Jake Plummer's fault, but I'd have to say that his 2 interceptions and 2 fumbles had A LOT to do with the loss. All we needed him to do was not lose the game. Just controll the clock and not turn the ball over. He couldn't. The defense was partly to blame, but when your quarterback gives the other team the ball 4 times in 1 game, you have next to no chance.




Yep Jake played a bad game that day, but remember that most of the time he had a LB or DE in his face every play, in some cases they were back in the pocket before he was..

PIT was ready for the game, we the entire team was not.

Frankly the OLINE still has not recovered IMO..

What he said. :coffee:

That same Oline got worst the following year, especially with the lost of Hamilton, then Nalen, then Lepsis. Lepsis' play, 1-2 years after his big payday contract, dwindled down.

[Nature Boy]

Yet, we did not address the offensive tackles position in FA. It seems very likely we'll draft a OT with our 1st round pick, but that does not mean the rookie will make an impact or even start ahead of Pears and/or Harris.

[Den21vsBal19]

Yep Jake played a bad game that day, but remember that most of the time he had a LB or DE in his face every play, in some cases they were back in the pocket before he was..

PIT was ready for the game, we the entire team was not.

Frankly the OLINE still has not recovered IMO..

Pittsburgh out-played, outthough, out-fought & out-coached us in our own house...............

And Shanny still hasn't recovered from the debacle............

[Lonestar]

Pittsburgh out-played, outthough, out-fought & out-coached us in our own house...............

And Shanny still hasn't recovered from the debacle............

And the Jake haters blamed it only on him.

When Jay came along in the draft they were all predicting Super Bowl.

When the scheme changed in TC with newbie Dinger at the helm.
Jake did not make the change, was replaced by a damned good QB.

Then the team was supposed to light it up and go all the way last year..

All the past two+ years have taught us is.

It was not ALL Jake.

This team is rebuilding, has been rebuilding since all of the HOF'ers retired...