Concerning The Broncos......

[WARHORSE]

Q: In a lot of the early mock drafts, the Broncos are picked to take Ryan Clady with their first-round pick. Who do you like better, Clady or Chris Williams? And would they really pick an offensive tackle and skip over Calais Campbell, or Rashard Mendenhall if he's still available? Also, do they have a new person with input in the draft now that (former general manager Ted) Sundquist is gone?
And William Christensen . . .
Q: Do you see the recent events surrounding Brandon Marshall affecting the Broncos draft/ free agent strategy?
A: Tuesday Mike Shanahan also expressed the importance of Travis Henry staying healthy and that it was key for Henry to have a quality offseason program to go into training camp in as good of physical condition as he could.
Since all of the Broncos top three backs had injuries this past season Shanahan says as it stands right now he would rotate backs with the idea he would turn to more of a one-back look if one of the backs showed he's ready and able to carry the ball more.
The most likely candidate for that, given he has also said he doesn't consider Andre Hall or Young every-down backs because of their size, would be Henry. But Henry is going to have to show he has put in the time and the effort to get himself ready to get the ball plenty.
As far as backs in the draft, there is plenty of posturing going on around the league at the moment – this is really the lying season when you're trying to discern who may do what on draft day – with concerns over Darren McFadden's potential off-the-field baggage with an arrest in his background and his public assertions he isn't going to simply disregard the people he had spent time with over the years as well as Jonathan Stewart's recent toe surgery.
That could push those two down the board some – not much because of their talent – but potentially some if teams follow through with the current air of concern on draft day. It's 50-50 at best they will, but it all could move Rashard Mendenhall up the board being he now is the "safest'' pick of the three top backs.
So if the first back goes off the board a little later than expected, one of the top three should be there when the Broncos pick at No. 12. Mendenhall and Stewart fit their offense better than McFadden would.
The bulk of the Broncos attack is an inside zone game and that isn't really McFadden's strength despite his top gear and open-field ability.
Mendenhall was considered a later pick until teams started seeing him work out and really went through his work., He ran 4.45 40 at 225 pounds – some teams had him at 4.41 hand-timed – at the combine. He catches the ball well and from the Broncos perspective, he played in a zone-run scheme at Illinois.
The only concern expressed is some teams believe there may be some maturity issues, but that could be said about many players on the board.
But if McFadden is taken within the top four picks – say, to Oakland – that could start the dominos at the position then all three could be gone by the time the Broncos pick.
I don't think they feel Henry's good health is a slam dunk for '08 given his age, wear and tear and the number of injuries he's dealt with in the last few years, so they would give a back a look though Shanahan has never taken one in the first round in his tenure.
As far as fullback, we said it before and it continues to be true, most teams are simply phasing it out of a seven-round draft board. There were just four invited to the combine this year.
It is not a position many teams consider a draft priority any longer. Fewer offenses are using a true fullback and most teams prefer to wait and grab one as a rookie undrafted free agent. But in this year's class one of the more intriguing players is Furman's Jerome Felton. A 241-pounder he ran an electronically-timed 4.68 40 at the combine.
He also scored 63 rushing touchdowns in his college career, 23 of those in 2006. He also moved the piled at his level of competition with just six negative yards in 2007 and just four negative yards in '06.
As far as tackle, this is the best class – top to bottom – in a long time and some offensive line coaches say ever, so any team will have to give a look. It is simply the best chance to get a quality player almost anywhere on the board.
Both Williams, from Vanderbilt, and Clady, from Boise St., are near the top of the board.
Some scouts are, as you've seen here before and it hasn't changed in recent weeks, concerned because Clady played in a spread offense that what he could do at the point of attack in a traditional run game is still a rather large unknown.
He's tremendously quick, but doesn't have that big-time lower body strength. He could build up that strength, but people still have questions.
Williams is 6-6, he ran one of the better 40s at the position at the combine and his strength numbers are good. And he played in a league full of speed rushers, in the SEC, he's smart and worked at both tackle spots at the Senior Bowl as well as at guard.
There are scouts who continue say they aren't as excited say he doesn't have that nasty streak they're looking for. I think he just played in a power conference against plenty of nasty players and would be a good fit for the Broncos.
That said the Broncos could still get, in this class, a potential starter in the second or third rounds as well.
Right now, Shanahan said Tuesday, if he had to line the offense to play right now Chris Kuper would be the Broncos' left tackle – with Ryan Harris also given the chance to compete for the job – with Erik Pears at right tackle. The Broncos graded out Kuper, who started at guard last season after Ben Hamilton suffered a concussion, highly and believe he has the footwork to make the transition.
He was largely a right guard at North Dakota, but the Broncos believe he moves well enough to kick out to left tackle and that's where he is expected to work through the team's organized workouts in the offseason.
And while Jay Cutler has expressed frustration with Marshall's off-the-field troubles – his severe right forearm injury just the latest – and Shanahan has said the wide receiver needs to grow up as well, the Broncos are currently operating under the assumption that he will be ready for training camp.
The team's doctors continue to give them that projection. If they do look receiver in this draft – in what is not considered a deep class – it would be a player like Michigan State's Devin Thomas, a position player who is also a top returner.
It will be a surprise if they do not take a returner in this draft, almost certainly one they believe could handle both punts and kickoffs.
But again their expectation is that Marshall is going to be ready. If they get to June and have to change that plan, then they may start searching the waiver wire for a player to fill in the gap until Marshall is ready to come back and also be forced to play Brandon Stokley in the starting lineup, something they're hoping to avoid simply to maximize the veteran's output in the slot.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I want Reynaud for the return duties. He can be had on day 2 and is a hard nosed playmaker.

[Ziggy]

Q: In a lot of the early mock drafts, the Broncos are picked to take Ryan Clady with their first-round pick. Who do you like better, Clady or Chris Williams? And would they really pick an offensive tackle and skip over Calais Campbell, or Rashard Mendenhall if he's still available? Also, do they have a new person with input in the draft now that (former general manager Ted) Sundquist is gone?


Jeff Goodman was named assistant GM before Sunquist left, and was supposed to be helping in all areas of the GM duties. I'm guessing that he's as close as we're going to get to having a real GM again.

As far as the Clady/Williams argument, I'm a Williams fan. He played LT in the toughest conference in college football and graded out superbly. I don't know if he has the nasty streak in him or not. I do know that he has the kind of work ethic and character we need on this team.(See my post titled The Chris Williams story be SN as to why)

[BOSSHOGG30]

Not saying Mendenhall won't be good in Denver because everyone knows I want Stewart or Mendenhall if we stay at 12, but Mendenhall's zone-run scheme at Illinois is a lot differnt from what the Broncos run here in Denver.

As for Chris Williams vs. Ryan Clady... By far Chris Williams.

[Ziggy]

Not saying Mendenhall won't be good in Denver because everyone knows I want Stewart or Mendenhall if we stay at 12, but Mendenhall's zone-run scheme at Illinois is a lot differnt from what the Broncos run here in Denver.

As for Chris Williams vs. Ryan Clady... By far Chris Williams.

Boss, you really think that upgrading the RB position is more important than shoring up the LT position and Cutler's blindside? I don't. I think there are 2 or 3 LT in this draft that can be cornerstone LT's. We haven't had that since Zimmerman left, and it shows. I say take a chance on the line and protecting Cutler's blindside rather than improving the running game with the 1st rounder. However, I'm old school and still believe that games are won on the line of scrimmage. (I think the world champion New York Giants do too)

[BOSSHOGG30]

Boss, you really think that upgrading the RB position is more important than shoring up the LT position and Cutler's blindside? I don't. I think there are 2 or 3 LT in this draft that can be cornerstone LT's. We haven't had that since Zimmerman left, and it shows. I say take a chance on the line and protecting Cutler's blindside rather than improving the running game with the 1st rounder. However, I'm old school and still believe that games are won on the line of scrimmage. (I think the world champion New York Giants do too)

I'm not worried about LT, I'm worried about depth and RT. Pears and Harris are true left tackles and Kuper has enough athletic ablity to compete with them for LT. I don't think adding a 4th LT to the mix will help us. We need a RT and depth on the O-line. I too believe the trenches are the most important part of the game, but I'm not ready to reach for someone with the 12th overall pick. The only lineman I see as a 12th overall pick is Albert and Williams and it matters what position you want them for. Albert isn't worth a 12th overall to play tackle, but he sure is for gaurd.

Why is everyone acting like if we don't use the 1st round pick on an offensive lineman that it is the end of the world? We have 9 draft picks. Just because we go RB or another position with the 12th overall doesn't mean we can't work on the o-line and d-line with the other 8 draft picks.

[Ziggy]

I don't think anyone is acting like it's the end of the world if we don't sign a LT with the first pick. I think that many of us believe that if you have a chance to draft a possible franchise LT, especially at the 12 spot, you do it for 2 reasons:
1. It's a possible franchise LT, and they are as important as any position on the field. Especially when you have an up and coming QB like Cutler.
2. How often does Denver draft high enough to even have a chance to pick up a franchise LT prospect?

I'm guessing you're probably more sold on Pears and Harris than I am. As far as Kuper goes, the staff thinks very highly of him at the guard spot, and they think he has the potential to be a good LT. It's all a crapshoot with unproven players, but I don't care if we have 6 LT's on the roster. As long as we find the one that can protect our franchise QB's blindside, I'm good with it.

[JONtheBRONCO]

If you watched the Denver Broncos last season you could see two glaring weaknesses. A, pass protection (see Mario Williams, Oakland Raiders, Detroit Lions, etc.), and B, stopping the run. If the Denver Broncos don't go LT early you can expect to see our franchise quarterback shorten his career by 3 years from getting smashed all over again. By no means is our offense line good. It's alright to be optimistic, but with a 37 year old center, a post-concussion mess with Ben Hamilton, an unproven LT, and an under-developed RT in Pears, we DO NOT have a good offensive line. There are plenty of 2-3 round RB's that I could live with, too bad I can't say that about LT. We have a chance to get a LT in one of the deepest classes in the NFL draft (first round talent). It would be very shocking if we didn't grab one of these guys.

Even Cutler has emphasized how important the LT is to him, we have NONE. You think Harris is going to be any better than Lepsis is? Kuper is going to come in and be better than Lepsis? The answer is no (I hope they prove me wrong). See the New England Patriots, Colts, Jaguars, pretty much any consistent team and look at where it starts, up front, the defense and offensive line. Put some studs in front of Cutler and Co. and see how the running game projects, it's not going to matter who's back there. Yeah, I like many, would love to see a superstar back there, but I'd rather win with a great offensive line.

Running back isn't the weapon Cutler needs... If anything, we are talking WR. We are talking about a better defense with consistent pressure from the defensive line, and a DT along with linebacking corps that can stop the run. If anything, we should bank on drafting a LB and a DT too. I love the Niko kid, and of course I love that Champs brother Boss came in, but I wouldn't look past at them failing in Denver, this is why the draft is so important.

Let's hope the Broncos hit again like they did in 2006, and it all starts with a LT, or a DT, build up front, that's what the great teams do (see the NY Giants, NE Pats, Colts, Chargers, Jags, etc.).

[BOSSHOGG30]

You also saw 3 of our 5 orginal lineman go down to injury and reserves have to step in and carry the load. You can't just replace a Tom Nalen, Ben Hamilton, and Matt Lepsis overnight. We have young guys that need a chance to develop and the best way to develop is to give them some playing time. You don't draft a guy in the 3rd round who was considered one of the best LT prospects in the draft and give up on him his 2nd year in the league.

[BroncoJoe]

Interesting comments from Don Banks @ SI:


Here's my quick take on the five teams that have the most riding on the 2008 NFL Draft. These are teams that absolutely have to get it right two weekends from now, when the league commences its annual version of high-stakes poker:

1. Denver -- Two consecutive non-playoff seasons is an obvious factor adding to the sense of urgency in Bronco-land. The surprising and relatively late-in-the-draft-season departure of general manager Ted Sundquist is another, because now there's no one else to blame but coach Mike Shanahan if things don't work out on the personnel front.

Denver's recent track record is spotty at best when it comes to identifying talent and building a roster. All those swings and misses on the defensive line. All those chances taken on players who came with some baggage in tow. The Broncos have nine overall picks, including two in the fourth, fifth and seventh rounds, but how they use their first two selections (No. 12 and 42 overall) will be huge.

They have to replace retired offensive tackle Matt Lepsis if they hope to re-solidify their line and keep quarterback Jay Cutler's development going. And they have to again shop for an impact player in the middle of their defensive line, which is a key to their defensive improvement. In addition, the offseason arm injury suffered by No. 1 receiver Brandon Marshall could force the Broncos to spend their second-round pick on another pass-catcher.

With the talent gap only widening between two-time defending division champion San Diego and the rest of the AFC West, the Broncos and Shanahan don't have any more margin for error.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Jaguars starting offensive line

K.Barnes Round:4 Pick:23
V.Manuwai Round:3 Pick:8
B.Meester Round:2 Pick:29
D.Norman Round:7 Pick:22
A.Pashos Round:5 Pick:38

[BOSSHOGG30]

Patriots starting offensive line

M.Light Round:2 Pick:17
L.Mankins Round:1 Pick:32
D.Koppen Round:5 Pick:29
S.Neal undrafted
N.Kaczur Round:3 Pick:36

[BOSSHOGG30]

Colts starting offensive line
T.Ugoh Round: 2
R.Lilja undrafted
J. Saturday undrafted
J. Scott Round:5 Pick:9
R.Diem Round:4 Pick:23

[r8rh8r]

I really enjoy reading these posts, but can I give some constructive criticism? Can you break up your thoughts into paragraphs. I almost get a headache trying to follow along.

I don't think Denver will take a lineman before round 4. I think the retirement of Lepsis is overblown. I think Denver will do everything they can to (a) trade up and get Ellis (depends on him slipping to Cincinnati), (b) trade down (Chicago, Detroit, or Tampa Bay are the most likely suitors), or (c) stay put and take the best talent available. This could be something unexpected such as OLB Keith Rivers.

Adding to BOSSHOG30's logic, I have expressed the following opinion:

Offensive Line Insights (http://www.rockymountainfever.net/2008/04/offensive-line-insights.html)

[BOSSHOGG30]

I really enjoy reading these posts, but can I give some constructive criticism? Can you break up your thoughts into paragraphs. I almost get a headache trying to follow along.

I don't think Denver will take a lineman before round 4. I think the retirement of Lepsis is overblown. I think Denver will do everything they can to (a) trade up and get Ellis (depends on him slipping to Cincinnati), (b) trade down (Chicago, Detroit, or Tampa Bay are the most likely suitors), or (c) stay put and take the best talent available. This could be something unexpected such as OLB Keith Rivers.

Adding to BOSSHOG30's logic, I have expressed the following opinion:

Offensive Line Insights (http://www.rockymountainfever.net/2008/04/offensive-line-insights.html)

What is the point total that we have to reach to get up to 6 from the Jets?

[r8rh8r]

400. Which is the equivalent of our second-rounder. Too expensive if you ask me.

[BOSSHOGG30]

400. Which is the equivalent of our second-rounder. Too expensive if you ask me.

Well, what is Foxworth worth to them? They said they are interested in adding a cornerback... did they sign Ty Law yet?

[BOSSHOGG30]

Do you think Foxworth and a 5th are equal to 400 points?

[r8rh8r]

I don't. Foxworth was given a 3rd-round tender offer as a restricted free agent and to my knowledge he's had hardly any interest. The most optimistic estimate of Foxworth's value is a 4th rounder, and I would be outraged if we parted with him for such a paltry sum. In fact, I wouldn't be too happy to lose him for a 3rd.

[Ziggy]

Boss you seem to be a "show me the money type guy", so that's what I'll do. Going back to the 2000 pro bowl to the 2008 pro bowl gives us an idea of the dominant tackles in the NFL today. These are the guys that can keep a pass rusher from changing the game. Here is the list of the tackles with the most pro bowls from 2000-2008

Jonathon Ogden- 9 Drafted Round 1-pick 4
Walter Jones- 8 Drafted Round 1-pick 6
Orlando Pace-7 Drafted Round 1-pick 1
Chris Samuels-4 Drafted Round 1-pick 3
Willie Roaf-4 Drafted Round 1-pick 8

If you want a franchise guy, you normally have to use a high first round pick to get him at the LT position. Are there exceptions? Sure. But not nearly as many as there are with the RB and other positions.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Boss you seem to be a "show me the money type guy", so that's what I'll do. Going back to the 2000 pro bowl to the 2008 pro bowl gives us an idea of the dominant tackles in the NFL today. These are the guys that can keep a pass rusher from changing the game. Here is the list of the tackles with the most pro bowls from 2000-2008

Jonathon Ogden- 9 Drafted Round 1-pick 4
Walter Jones- 8 Drafted Round 1-pick 6
Orlando Pace-7 Drafted Round 1-pick 1
Chris Samuels-4 Drafted Round 1-pick 3
Willie Roaf-4 Drafted Round 1-pick 8

If you want a franchise guy, you normally have to use a high first round pick to get him at the LT position. Are there exceptions? Sure. But not nearly as many as there are with the RB and other positions.


Pro Bowl's don't win Championships... so no thanks. These guys were the top OT in the entire draft... Jake Long is that guy. We are talking about taking the 3rd or 4th best OT when we pick at 12... not the #1 or #2 guy.

Plus there is no OT's in this draft with the same time of measures as an Ogden, Jones, Pace, Roaf, or Samuels

[Ziggy]

Pro Bowl's don't win Championships... so no thanks. These guys were the top OT in the entire draft... Jake Long is that guy. We are talking about taking the 3rd or 4th best OT when we pick at 12... not the #1 or #2 guy.

Plus there is no OT's in this draft with the same time of measures as an Ogden, Jones, Pace, Roaf, or Samuels

You sure about that? I'm not. I think Williams will be a better LT in the NFL than Jake Long when it's all said and done. You're right about pro bowls not winning chamionships. Dan Marino will tell you that. I just think that you put together the important pieces of a championship team when you can. It takes risks to do that, but I'd rather take a risk on a player in the trenches than a RB early on in the draft. However, we'll agree to disagree on this draft. Heck, if it was easy for Denver to get the best players in the draft every time, we'd be starting 22 pro bowlers every week.

[BOSSHOGG30]

You sure about that? I'm not. I think Williams will be a better LT in the NFL than Jake Long when it's all said and done. You're right about pro bowls not winning chamionships. Dan Marino will tell you that. I just think that you put together the important pieces of a championship team when you can. It takes risks to do that, but I'd rather take a risk on a player in the trenches than a RB early on in the draft. However, we'll agree to disagree on this draft. Heck, if it was easy for Denver to get the best players in the draft every time, we'd be starting 22 pro bowlers every week.

I'm not comparing Jake Long to Chris Williams... I'm saying that when the scouts come out each year and rank the OT's... Long, Williams, Clady, Otah... none of the grade out to the same level as a Odgen, Pace, or Jones. They were the top OT taken for a reason. This year, regardless of who you think will be the best OT... Jake Long will be the 1st OT, maybe 1st player taken in the entire draft.... therefore... Jake Long is this years... Odgen, Jones, and Pace. Whether or not you think Long will live up that that status, we will see. I don't think you can compare guys like Jones and Pace, guys who were in Heisman talks because the dominated to talents such as Long, Clady, Williams, and Otah... They are more like the Ryan Diems of the NFL, good but not great.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Because of Denver's zone blocking scheme, we need to look at guys like Duane Brown, Zuttah, and some of the more mobile guys that will go in the later rounds. We have a system in place that allows us to take offensive linemen in later rounds and succeed. No need to jump the gun.

[r8rh8r]

Because of Denver's zone blocking scheme, we need to look at guys like Duane Brown, Zuttah, and some of the more mobile guys that will go in the later rounds. We have a system in place that allows us to take offensive linemen in later rounds and succeed. No need to jump the gun.

Precisely.

As for the 1st round argument, this is anecdotal evidence. What about George Foster? Surely he proves that any offensive lineman drafted in the first round is a bust, applying the same logic.

The true test would be to discern the probably an offensive lineman has statistically-significant career longevity and is a starter over that period, given that they are taken in round 1 rather than round 2 through 7. Using pro bowls as a yard stick (which is a horrible standard given the selection process), I happen to know that 1st rounders don't have a statistically better chance of making the pro bowl than 3rd rounders.

Given that (a) market demand for zone-blocking prototype lineman is very low and (b) zone-blocking is more about effective execution than physical dominance, you could further assert that a zone-blocking scheme always overpays by drafting a player in round 1.

I would be astonished if Denver took a tackle before round 4 of this year's draft.

[r8rh8r]

Nalen was a 7th rounder and Lepsis was undrafted. Kuper was a fifth rounder, Pears was undrafted, Hamilton was a 4th rounder, Holland was a 6th, etc. Zimmerman was a 2nd rounder, Schlereth was a 10th rounder... yada, yada, yada.

Speaking of anecdotal evidence :) Touche.

[underrated29]

EVERYONE keeps talking about unproven guys at left tackle. (harris, pears,kuper.)

They are more proven then a rookie who has never played a down in the nfl. A rookie who has never run the ZBS that we do. How can anyone say that a 1st rd rook will come in and be that cornerstone at LT when he has to beat out players who have played in our system and many games and he hasnt.

To me its a no brainer. besides williams I will be very unhappy if we take an OL in the first. I would be ok with williams. The drop off in talent from 1st rd to 2nd and 3rd isnt great. So we can add more depth there.

Harris as you know was supposed to be a 1st rd talent. Let the dude try it out, if he and kupes cant cut it, then we know where to draft next year.

The best way to take pressure off a qb is to have a great running game. Stew would do it, and he doesnt need any holes to run through either. he can make his own.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Please, no more Madden trades.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Our horrible offensive line could only manage us a top 11 offense in the NFL even though we lost Lepsis, Hamilton, Nalen, Henry, and Walker. They were only .9 yards per game away from being a top 10 offense.

How horrible!

[JONtheBRONCO]

Good debate here.

[HolyDiver]

Because of Denver's zone blocking scheme, we need to look at guys like Duane Brown, Zuttah, and some of the more mobile guys that will go in the later rounds. We have a system in place that allows us to take offensive linemen in later rounds and succeed. No need to jump the gun.


O-linemen and Runningbacks......IN DENVER, .....good ones, can be had in the later rounds..............Nalen was a 7th round pick............probably because he's only 285 pounds............but that is what WE want anyway...............I'm still shocked how many people STILL don't see this. There is a reason we don't draft 330 pound Tackles.

[r8rh8r]

Our horrible offensive line could only manage us a top 11 offense in the NFL even though we lost Lepsis, Hamilton, Nalen, Henry, and Walker. They were only .9 yards per game away from being a top 10 offense.

How horrible!

It's hard to argue with that logic!

I wouldn't cry myself to sleep if we drafted Williams, but only if we traded below pick #20 and he dropped to us. With the extra pick we'd garner in that deal, its a reasonable risk. That said, I'm not in love with taking a tackle in the first two round whatsoever.

Also, last I checked we were 3 deep with experienced tackles. Shouldn't we be more concerned about having depth behind Hamilton? Who's gonna take his job, Weigmann?

[BOSSHOGG30]

It's hard to argue with that logic!

I wouldn't cry myself to sleep if we drafted Williams, but only if we traded below pick #20 and he dropped to us. With the extra pick we'd garner in that deal, its a reasonable risk. That said, I'm not in love with taking a tackle in the first two round whatsoever.

Also, last I checked we were 3 deep with experienced tackles. Shouldn't we be more concerned about having depth behind Hamilton? Who's gonna take his job, Weigmann?

Especially if Kuper wins one of the tackle spots... and I happen to think it will be Harris and Kuper with Pears as the back up LT. We need depth at RT and a guy who can play center and gaurd to give us depth. Zuttah, Duane Brown, and Sullivan are ideal because they can play almost any position.

[WARHORSE]

All this talk about protecting Jays blindside. There are a few in here that actually understand what the Broncos do on the Oline, but not many. In the Broncos way of thinking, a dominant run game is the best protector of Jay Cutler. Thats why we can only give up 25 sacks while having a converted TE at LT.(Lepsis/Plummers years)

How is it that Plummer was always one of the least sacked QBs in the league even though we did not have a Walter Jones, Jonathan Ogden, or Willie Roaf at LT? Its because we keep the DEs back honoring the run game by running effectively underneath and off tackle.

Its not that an all around dominant OT wouldnt thrive in Denver, we would welcome a player like that. But our QB is not an immobile pocket passer, and if the pass rush gets hot, we have the ability to move the pocket of protection or roll out our QB. Yes, if you get far behind this becomes harder to do because you become one dimensional, but thats the difference between a really good run offense versus a DOMINANT one.

Frankly, unless one of the big guys slide down the board, if we pick at 12 I think we either take an OT in the first, and a RB later......or a RB in the first and an OT later. I guarantee you this though......those will both be positions we address with at least one pick in this draft.

Which direction we go in imo will depend on who is the highest rated player on our draft board come time for us to pick.

If we got Chris Williams in the first, and Ray Rice later, or Kevin Smith, etc, then Im good. If we get Mendenhall in the first, and then Collins or Cherilous or whatever OT we have graded the highest in the second, Im good too.

A finishing thought would be, which will give us the more dominant run game? Mendenhall or Williams?

Right now, and this could change, but I think Mendenhall offers the better chance. But at the same time, I think Williams is the safer pick. So go figure.

A dominant Oline in Denver will help the RBs for years. But knowing our scheme, we can add another big OT past round one and still end up with a dominant Oline.

In the end, I think this draft will help our offense, which means Cutler will be better protected.

[WARHORSE]

Wants and needs . . .


Wednesday, March 26 at 12:01 AM
In an effort to keep the Inbox rolling toward the draft, we answer those regulars who led a short list of queries this week . . .
William Christensen leads a draft double . . .
Q: Now that the Broncos have addressed their pressing needs at linebacker and safety do you still see them drafting the best athlete available or going for more of a need-based approach ( offensive line, defensive line, wide receiver, etc) in the draft?
And Allen Harrison . . .
Q: Related to the draft, it looks to me like the Broncos are going to need to come out of the first two rounds with at least 1 wide receiver, because I don't think Keary Colbert looks like an upgrade over what they already have. I'm hoping that it isn't DeSean Jackson, at least not at pick No. 12, simply because his size is going to make it very difficult for him to be an every-down contributor for a 16-game season. I'm a pretty big Malcolm Kelly fan. Which wide receiver would you pick in Round 1? Who do you think will still be there in Round 2? I think Andre Caldwell, James Hardy, or Jordy Nelson would be good fits, and expect at least one of them to be available.I know it's futile to try to project trades in advance of the draft, as they always seem to get done on draft day with a team chasing a particular player who is still on the board. But I would love to see Denver get a third round pick, by moving down a few slots. Since Denver picks six places before the Texans . . . do you think there's a chance Houston might move up to try to get a stud running back, since (Ron) Dayne and Ahman Green aren't long-term answers? If not Houston, any other teams you think might make willing trade partners? And, are there any Broncos players who are trade bait right now?
A: It has always been a common draft theme in this space, but early on, especially in the first round, to draft solely on need, and leapfrog players a team may have rated more highly on their own board, is a recipe for draft-day trouble.
That's Troy Edwards – to the Steelers -- ahead of Jevon Kearse – to the Titans -- in '99.
For a team to spend months setting its own draft board, to send scouts all over the country, to watch thousands of hours of videotape to rank the players and then leapfrog better players on that board to pick for need early in the draft is just not a wise thing for any team to do.
And like we've addressed, if the Broncos stay at 12, they'll have some big-time quality to choose from.
Wide receiver is one position for them to consider having released Javon Walker and with Brandon Marshall now in a position to have to prove he'll be ready for the season after arm surgery, but to pick a wide receiver in the first round is to make a pick with the idea of down-the-road contributions rather than immediate impact. League history shows it is just simply not an impact position for a rookie.
Rookie receivers have more troubles than players at almost any other position, except possibly quarterback or left tackle, adjusting to the players they now across from them in the NFL.
Many veteran receivers, including Hall of Fame Michael Irvin have described being open in college to be at least two or three strides ahead of the defender whereas open in the NFL can often be a space of a foot and a half. So rookie receivers have trouble working in that more confined space and just seem to have a huge hurdle with cornerbacks who may now even be bigger than they are who run just as fast or faster, cornerbacks who know how to get them off their routes.
Even a player as physically strong a Marshall struggled with that as a rookie and made the adjustment far better in his second year – which turned out to be his first 1,000-yard season.
All of which means any team that takes a receiver in the first round and is expecting a 1,000-yard rookie in return is routinely disappointed. Future No.1 and No. 2 receivers are taken in the first round, not do not usually play anything close to those roles as rookies.
The list of 1,000-yard rookie receivers over the last 30 years is a short one when compared with the numbers of first-round picks used to draft at the position over that same span.
DeSean Jackson, because of the Broncos' need for a returner as well, is always going to be a consideration for any team in the position of needing some outside help as well as in the return game. He is one of the better returners on the board.
And as we’ve said returners can have immediate impact, so that makes a dual player a little safer pick in the immediate results department.
The concerns many scouts I've talked to have with him – concerns I agree with at this point -- is he tipped the scales under 170 pounds and returning is a high-impact job. So there are, despite his obvious skills and speed, durability questions and the question of whether he will be able to get off press coverage in an offense by cornerbacks who are not only as fast as he is, but 20-30 pounds heavier as well.
Malcolm Kelly is the top receiver on some teams' boards, though in my mind 12 may be a bit high for him. He is one of the biggest receivers available – at just over 6-3 and 224 pounds – and also one of the youngest players in the draft – he won't be 22 until December.
He's had some injury things – he didn't work out in Indy and missed the Fiesta Bowl to close out this past season because of a right thigh injury and had knee surgery following the '06 season to repair some cartilage damage.
Hardy, at 6-5 3/8, 217 pounds, is another big receiver in a class full of smaller ones this year, so his value is up. A good enough athlete to have played 23 games for the Hoosiers basketball team he had 36 career TDs – 10, 10 and 16 in his three seasons -- though defenses constantly rotated coverages to him.
He's good in a crowd as well, he will go and get the ball. He's had to explain some off the field issues, the biggest of which was spending 72 hours in a jail as part of his plea for a domestic battery incident in '06.
Nelson, a former defensive back for the Jayhawks in his freshman season, is another bigger guy (6-2 5/8, 217) who exploded in '07 with 122 catches for 1,606 yards. He set 11 school records in '07 and most scouts like his upside.
I looked at the Texas game a couple times he had 12 catches for 116 yards and took a punt back 92 yards for a touchdown.
Caldwell's got plenty of big-conference experience having played in 52 games at Florida. He clocked a 4.37 40, electronically timed, at the combine, but some scouts don't believe he always plays that fast with the gear on and those who are really picky point out he didn't have a 1,000-yard season.
Still that's top shelf speed in this class.
But with that first-round pick, the Broncos may find themselves, the way this class is shaking out, facing a decision between a defensive tackle, an offensive tackle and a running back.
It may be one of the deepest drafts in history at offensive so teams could take productive players there all the way through the seventh round. The Broncos' specific need there will simply be based on what they think of Ryan Harris at the moment.
If they believe Harris, who had back surgery during training camp last year, is ready to go, ready to compete for the left tackle spot, they may be more apt to wait to pick one later for depth, especially in a draft loaded at the position like this one.
If they jumped early, for someone like Vanderbilt's Chris Williams, it's clear they want competition in Matt Lepsis' old spot to see what shakes out.
Defensively if by some freak of the ages occurrence a player like DT Sedrick Ellis fell to 12 there is no question he'd be the best player on the board. Miami's Calais Campbell, a Denver native, is also an intriguing prospect simply because he could play the power end spot on the defensive left and go down inside to tackle in rush situations.
He's a guy who plays faster than he times in workouts as well. Dominated as a sophomore in '06.
Though Shanahan has never taken a running back in the first round, if Rashard Mendenhall is on the board at 12 they certainly would have to give him a hard look. Travis Henry has not proven he can be healthy and Mendenhall is probably the best zone runner in this draft.
There will be running backs later and the Broncos have proven they always have a couple picked out that they like, but Mendenhall brings a lot to the party in terms of running, catching the ball and the quality of his character.
As far as trades go the Broncos are always willing partners. The Texans are in an issue, though, because general manager Rick Smith and coach Gary Kubiak, both former Broncos employees who've made no secret about doing things they way they learned in Denver, take plenty of public heat down there for bringing in too many ex-Broncos.
And having already made one trade with the Broncos -- Chris Myers to the Texans for a draft pick -- they may be a little more hesitant to make another one before the draft just because of public sentiment.

[WARHORSE]

Dennis Smythe in Highlands Ranch wondered . . .
Q: Arguably until this offseason, Pat Bowlen has always shown a willingness to spend in order to maintain a competitive team on the field. Recently, there are several signs that the Broncos are being more frugal with their finances. The modest free agent signings, letting go several coaches and staff members, and letting Jason Elam walk away all appear to be driven in large part by the bottom line. On top of it, they are hitting up us season ticket holders with another price increase. What has changed in their situation in order to drive these decisions? Last time I checked, they are still selling out each game, and TV revenue is not going down.
A: You're right. Ticket prices went up again, TV revenues continue to be strong in the league, but Bowlen has said the league's collective bargaining agreement calls for the players to get 60 percent of revenues is the root of the issue.
You never really know the financial story unless teams open their books, but there are an awful lot of teams, big revenue teams included, really griping about the current labor deal, which is almost certain to be commissioner Roger Goodell's biggest challenge in the coming years
Because if you're the players union and you've successfully bargained for 60 percent of the revenues, going backward from that is really not on the agenda. The owners will have to give up something big – something like far better long-term benefits and health care for players after they retire – to even get the idea of less money going their way into the discussion.
In short salaries are up over the last two seasons and for most teams income has stayed roughly the same until the league figures out some of the new media issues – like game broadcasts for cellphones and other Internet sources where they could add revenues.
Also the league is currently losing a pile of money on the NFL Network – in part why they shut down a vitally important developmental league, their only outdoor, 11-on-11 developmental option beyond their own practice squads, like NFL Europe – and that has influenced a few decisions as well.
Each team currently kicks in plenty to keep the league's network going.
Bowlen, too, said following the season he simply felt strongly the team had made too many mistakes in free agency, that the dollars that were being spent were not spent well and that they had surrendered too many big signing bonuses to players who were then sent on their way after one or two years of the deal.
The Elam decision was in part money – he got far more from the Falcons than the Broncos were going to give him – and in part football. Elam didn't kick off and the Broncos would rather not carry three kickers on the roster if they don't have to. Also Shanahan and Bowlen both have said they wanted to get younger overall.
Even safety John Lynch had resigned himself to be headed elsewhere after being told he needed to take a significant pay cut to stay in Denver until Bowlen interceded in that one.
Too the longer free agency is part of the league, the fewer top players who become available to the open market. Teams are getting better and more pro-active in signing their own players before they reach the open market.
So free agent classes get a little smaller each year in terms of Pro Bowl-caliber players who come free, so most teams are a little less active than they were a few years ago.
Certainly some of all of those decisions were bottom-line driven, but some was philosophical too. Ted Sundquist was not fired as general manager because of what he was paid, he was fired because Bowlen said the team's "dysfunctional'' environment had to be repaired.
Bowlen wanted the locker room cleaned up too. He said he didn't like the affect some of the people who were brought in free agency in previous years had on locker room chemistry and that he hoped that could be repaired before the '08 season.

[omac]

All this talk about protecting Jays blindside. There are a few in here that actually understand what the Broncos do on the Oline, but not many. In the Broncos way of thinking, a dominant run game is the best protector of Jay Cutler. Thats why we can only give up 25 sacks while having a converted TE at LT.(Lepsis/Plummers years)

How is it that Plummer was always one of the least sacked QBs in the league even though we did not have a Walter Jones, Jonathan Ogden, or Willie Roaf at LT? Its because we keep the DEs back honoring the run game by running effectively underneath and off tackle.

Its not that an all around dominant OT wouldnt thrive in Denver, we would welcome a player like that. But our QB is not an immobile pocket passer, and if the pass rush gets hot, we have the ability to move the pocket of protection or roll out our QB. Yes, if you get far behind this becomes harder to do because you become one dimensional, but thats the difference between a really good run offense versus a DOMINANT one.

Frankly, unless one of the big guys slide down the board, if we pick at 12 I think we either take an OT in the first, and a RB later......or a RB in the first and an OT later. I guarantee you this though......those will both be positions we address with at least one pick in this draft.

Which direction we go in imo will depend on who is the highest rated player on our draft board come time for us to pick.

If we got Chris Williams in the first, and Ray Rice later, or Kevin Smith, etc, then Im good. If we get Mendenhall in the first, and then Collins or Cherilous or whatever OT we have graded the highest in the second, Im good too.

A finishing thought would be, which will give us the more dominant run game? Mendenhall or Williams?

Right now, and this could change, but I think Mendenhall offers the better chance. But at the same time, I think Williams is the safer pick. So go figure.

A dominant Oline in Denver will help the RBs for years. But knowing our scheme, we can add another big OT past round one and still end up with a dominant Oline.

In the end, I think this draft will help our offense, which means Cutler will be better protected.

While I agree that a dominant run game will keep the ends honest, nowadays, there are big players who also are very athletic, so if we can get a big LT who's athletic and quick enough to fit into our run-blocking system, I'd be ecstatic for Denver to get him.

Lepsis used to be really good at his position, but he dropped off; he was beaten so badly that if Jay's leg didn't bend properly when the opposing player fell on it after he'd beaten Lepis (or whoever LT was in at the time), Jay'd have a serious knee injury. Although Jay is mobile, he is also the type of quarterback who'll stay in the pocket to complete a throw even when he knows the big hit is coming. Because of that trait, I think our LT has to be excellent at pass protection, not just run blocking. It's another matter if we had a quarterback who's first instinct is to run or get away.

I like your LT then RB scenario better.

[omac]

Nice interviews WARHORSE!

I agree with him that 12 is a bit too high for a WR, specially when we have more pressing needs, and quality players at other possitions could be available there, plus his point about a WR not making an immediate impact as a rookie. Ofcourse, if that were Calvin Johnson, get him ... :D

I also like the point about getting the best player available, versus reaching for a player of need.

[WARHORSE]

While I agree that a dominant run game will keep the ends honest, nowadays, there are big players who also are very athletic, so if we can get a big LT who's athletic and quick enough to fit into our run-blocking system, I'd be ecstatic for Denver to get him.

Lepsis used to be really good at his position, but he dropped off; he was beaten so badly that if Jay's leg didn't bend properly when the opposing player fell on it after he'd beaten Lepis (or whoever LT was in at the time), Jay'd have a serious knee injury. Although Jay is mobile, he is also the type of quarterback who'll stay in the pocket to complete a throw even when he knows the big hit is coming. Because of that trait, I think our LT has to be excellent at pass protection, not just run blocking. It's another matter if we had a quarterback who's first instinct is to run or get away.

I like your LT then RB scenario better.

Agreed.

I think the other reason you look for a dominant LT is for Cutlers mindset. I think he can be a little more poised when it comes to the leagues best pass rushers knowing he has a stud guarding his backside. For me, that stud is not Long though........Its Williams or Albert because Ive seen Long cross his legs while playing quite a few times. I dont like that at all. I think hes a better RT.

If we're looking for a starter this year, its Williams or Albert.


On the backside of that trade scenario with the Jets, having the Broncos move up to the 6th selection, I can see Denver taking Chris Long if hes there, simply because hes a stud, and he can play both DT and DE. That would be taking a page out of the GIANTS 'How to Beat the Patriots' handbook.

Can you imagine what Champ and Dre would have done had they been the GIANTS corners last year?

Whew!

[Ziggy]

If we're looking for a starter this year, its Williams or Albert.


On the backside of that trade scenario with the Jets, having the Broncos move up to the 6th selection, I can see Denver taking Chris Long if hes there, simply because hes a stud, and he can play both DT and DE. That would be taking a page out of the GIANTS 'How to Beat the Patriots' handbook.

Can you imagine what Champ and Dre would have done had they been the GIANTS corners last year?

Whew!

I think Chris Long is gone at 6. He is supposedly the only can't miss pass rusher in this draft. If the Broncos were to trade up and grab him, I might just wet myself. Not only over the fact that we get an elite pass rusher, but Howie Long would have to start rooting for the Broncos. How ironic would that be, and how pissed off would Al the cryptkeeper Davis be?

[r8rh8r]

I think Chris Long is gone at 6. He is supposedly the only can't miss pass rusher in this draft. If the Broncos were to trade up and grab him, I might just wet myself. Not only over the fact that we get an elite pass rusher, but Howie Long would have to start rooting for the Broncos. How ironic would that be, and how pissed off would Al the cryptkeeper Davis be?

Denver will take the best player available on the board, regardless of position. That's why I think all this speculation that they have tunnel vision for a tackle is silly. Sure it's a need, but you don't pay a guy 12th pick money based on need. You draft the surest-thing pro bowler you can get. With that in mind, its far more likely that Denver will grab Limas Sweed, Travis Mendenhall, Keith Rivers, Leodis McKelvin, or even Derrick Harvey than an OT.

[underrated29]

Denver will take the best player available on the board, regardless of position. That's why I think all this speculation that they have tunnel vision for a tackle is silly. Sure it's a need, but you don't pay a guy 12th pick money based on need. You draft the surest-thing pro bowler you can get. With that in mind, its far more likely that Denver will grab Limas Sweed, Travis Mendenhall, Keith Rivers, Leodis McKelvin, or even Derrick Harvey than an OT.

who is travis mendenhall?

Do you mean rahsard mendenhall? IF so cool, but why not stewart?

[r8rh8r]

who is travis mendenhall?

Do you mean rahsard mendenhall? IF so cool, but why not stewart?

I meant Rashard. Sorry.

Stewart's durability concerns me. That said, I think he'd be a great pick. It depends on what Denver wants to do with their running game. If they are looking for an every-down back tailor made for the zone-blocking scheme, I think Mendenhall is the best prospect in the entire draft.

If we took Stewart, I would expect him to play more like MJD does for the Jags: a third down back and kick returner. Stewart could also line up in the slot on 4 WR sets because he's got great hands. He has the size to be an every-down guy, but I don't think that translates to 300 carries a season because of his injury history. Players that get injured in college tend to get injured in the NFL.


I think a guy that can do it all on passing downs at RB (block, run, catch) could make a bigger impact for Denver than any other player. But aren't there less injury-prone guys that are maybe just as good as Stewart that can be had cheaper? I like Felix Jones a lot in the second round. He's only 207 but has the frame to carry 220+. Addai is 215, so a third down back at that weight is a good risk--as long as you limit his touches.

For second-round money, I'd say Stewart is a home run. For 12th-pick money? I'm shaky...

[Ziggy]

Denver will take the best player available on the board, regardless of position. That's why I think all this speculation that they have tunnel vision for a tackle is silly. Sure it's a need, but you don't pay a guy 12th pick money based on need. You draft the surest-thing pro bowler you can get. With that in mind, its far more likely that Denver will grab Limas Sweed, Travis Mendenhall, Keith Rivers, Leodis McKelvin, or even Derrick Harvey than an OT.


Sorry, but the BPA argument is only valid within reason. If Matt Ryan drops to 12 and is the BPA, the Broncos aren't taking him.

[r8rh8r]

Denver will take the best player available on the board, regardless of position. That's why I think all this speculation that they have tunnel vision for a tackle is silly. Sure it's a need, but you don't pay a guy 12th pick money based on need. You draft the surest-thing pro bowler you can get. With that in mind, its far more likely that Denver will grab Limas Sweed, Travis Mendenhall, Keith Rivers, Leodis McKelvin, or even Derrick Harvey than an OT.

Sorry, but the BPA argument is only valid within reason. If Matt Ryan drops to 12 and is the BPA, the Broncos aren't taking him.

Matt Ryan wouldn't be on our team, but Ryan would likely go at this pick. Should this occur, Denver would fighting off trade offers with a stick. They wouldn't say, "nah, we are gonna take Chris Williams, see if Carolina wants to deal."

There's also a huge difference between saying, "Denver can't justify taking any player from X position" and saying, "Denver will only take a player from X position."

[Ziggy]

Denver will take the best player available on the board, regardless of position. That's why I think all this speculation that they have tunnel vision for a tackle is silly. Sure it's a need, but you don't pay a guy 12th pick money based on need. You draft the surest-thing pro bowler you can get. With that in mind, its far more likely that Denver will grab Limas Sweed, Travis Mendenhall, Keith Rivers, Leodis McKelvin, or even Derrick Harvey than an OT.

Sorry, but the BPA argument only holds up WITHIN REASON. If Matt Ryan drops to 12 and is the BPA at that point, the Broncos aren't taking him. They usually rate the players in groups, and the one that fills the need out of that group is chosen. Last year's group was Justin Harrell, Jarvis Moss, and a LB. When the other 2 went off the board, we went up and got Moss.

[MOtorboat]

Sorry, but the BPA argument only holds up WITHIN REASON. If Matt Ryan drops to 12 and is the BPA at that point, the Broncos aren't taking him. They usually rate the players in groups, and the one that fills the need out of that group is chosen. Last year's group was Justin Harrell, Jarvis Moss, and a LB. When the other 2 went off the board, we went up and got Moss.

It's probably a combination of the two. BPA and the Broncos Board.

I would imagine Matt Ryan isn't on the Broncos board at all.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

The Broncos have rarely ever upheld to the best player available theory in regards to their top choices.

[shank]

The Broncos have rarely ever upheld to the best player available theory in regards to their top choices.

exactly. i don't know where people come up with the idea :confused:

[r8rh8r]

The Broncos have rarely ever upheld to the best player available theory in regards to their top choices.

Given the long list of busts we've drafted in round 1, I tend to agree with you. I didn't think Jarvis Moss was anything close to the BPA last year. Perhaps some of my draft logic is wishful thinking; there's a difference between what Denver will do and what Denver ought to do.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

exactly. i don't know where people come up with the idea :confused:

Yes, and I don't see them going that route this year considering the needs they have all over the board. I would not be surprised to see Mendenhall be our pick (let's just say BPA on their board) but then again, that'd be addressing an area that could justifiably be called a pertinent need as well.

[Ziggy]

Other than QB, TE, and CB, I think every position on the field is a position of need this year for the Broncos. You could pick a top player in any position other than those 3 and argue that it was both a pick in a position of need and the one the Broncos rated as the BPA.

[r8rh8r]

Other than QB, TE, and CB, I think every position on the field is a position of need this year for the Broncos. You could pick a top player in any position other than those 3 and argue that it was both a pick in a position of need and the one the Broncos rated as the BPA.

I think CB could be considered a "need" position; despite having great starters, we will lose Bly next year. The jury is out on Paymah and Denver seems unconvinced that Foxworth is better than a Nickel corner. If we don't grab a corner this year, it could be a huge need in next years draft. Particularly if it was a guy with high-line return skills, I don't think Denver would shy away from taking a CB at a great value.

[shank]

Other than QB, TE, and CB, I think every position on the field is a position of need this year for the Broncos. You could pick a top player in any position other than those 3 and argue that it was both a pick in a position of need and the one the Broncos rated as the BPA.

i'll agree, we can pretty much take BPA this draft and fill a need, but i don't see where people get the idea and make the claim that shanahan will take the BPA regardless of position, as he has almost never done that apart from jay cutler.

2008 is a special situation, but it doesn't create a pattern.

[WARHORSE]

Denver will take the best player available on the board, regardless of position. That's why I think all this speculation that they have tunnel vision for a tackle is silly. Sure it's a need, but you don't pay a guy 12th pick money based on need. You draft the surest-thing pro bowler you can get. With that in mind, its far more likely that Denver will grab Limas Sweed, Travis Mendenhall, Keith Rivers, Leodis McKelvin, or even Derrick Harvey than an OT.


Limas Sweed??? He may not even be selected in the first round.

Travis Menenhall???? Whozzat? lol.........

Rivers??? I dont think so.........


I definitely value the tackles higher in the draft.

Mendenhall may be the man....true.

[underrated29]

Why do you say we will lose bly next year??

I am interested to know. If for soem reason you are correct i THInk its then absolutely nessacery that we trade back to pick up a 3rd or 2nd.

I have been hearing of this guy aquib talib or something. I have seeen his name mentioned before. I have yet to read up on him, but he evidently could according to some be one of the best cb's.

If so, he could be our 2nd 2nd rd pick or our 3rd. But all that is contigent upon bly leaving which i am not sure why. So that where i am at...

[WARHORSE]

I think CB could be considered a "need" position; despite having great starters, we will lose Bly next year. The jury is out on Paymah and Denver seems unconvinced that Foxworth is better than a Nickel corner. If we don't grab a corner this year, it could be a huge need in next years draft. Particularly if it was a guy with high-line return skills, I don't think Denver would shy away from taking a CB at a great value.

We lose Bly next year?

I havent heard that one. I thought we just re-upped his deal for cap reasons.

[r8rh8r]

We lose Bly next year?

I havent heard that one. I thought we just re-upped his deal for cap reasons.

My mistake; he's with us for 3 more years. I thought he had a 3-year deal, but was wrong.

[r8rh8r]

Limas Sweed??? He may not even be selected in the first round.

Travis Menenhall???? Whozzat? lol.........

Rivers??? I dont think so.........


I definitely value the tackles higher in the draft.

Mendenhall may be the man....true.

After Malcolm Kelly laid an egg at his workout last week, Sweed is probably the first receiver drafted this year. Who's gonna go ahead of him?

[shank]

After Malcolm Kelly laid an egg at his workout last week, Sweed is probably the first receiver drafted this year. Who's gonna go ahead of him?

devin thomas.

i think mayock even had early doucet ahead of sweed.

and just because he's the best available WR doesn't mean that he's better than the best available tackles or worthy of the 12th pick...

[r8rh8r]

devin thomas.

i think mayock even had early doucet ahead of sweed.

and just because he's the best available WR doesn't mean that he's better than the best available tackles or worthy of the 12th pick...

Maylock also has Frank Okam and Drew Miller (C) going in the first round.

[shank]

Maylock also has Frank Okam and Drew Miller (C) going in the first round.

no he doesn't.

[r8rh8r]

no he doesn't.

He did as of March 24th.

[nevcraw]

If they take a reciver w/ the first pick, I will have to go out and replace the TV that I destroy...
I would be fine w/ D. Jackson in the second (doubt he will make it that far though), he could take over in the slot in a year or 2 and would be the returner we've coveted since D. Gordon left..

[MOtorboat]

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story;jsessionid=D076782D2B12B623A1D0D2257C6A948D? id=09000d5d8079e2e4&template=with-video&confirm=true

[Drill-N-Fill]

The Broncos have rarely ever upheld to the best player available theory in regards to their top choices.

True, but you could also say the Broncos don't draft a RB int he 1st round, and according to all of us, we would prefer a RB.

I hope they do draft BPA as long as its not a QB or CB. If Gholston is available, I hope they jump on him, regardless of how many DE's we have.

[shank]

He did as of March 24th.

article from march 15th which contains mayock's top 5 dts, and okam isn't on it.

i think the senior bowl was the last time anyone had okam anywhere near the top.

drew miller isn't even in his top 5 interior OL either. no idea what you're talking about.

EDIT: oops, forgot the link lol.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story;jsessionid=388369B6675ACD59634B1D8016F1B319? id=09000d5d80736df6&template=with-video&confirm=true

[Ziggy]

I can't see the Broncos taking a WR in the first round. I can see OT, DT, DE, RB, LB, even safety if we trade down. WR would be hard to justify at the 12 spot even without a proven #2 on the roster.

[r8rh8r]

I can't see the Broncos taking a WR in the first round. I can see OT, DT, DE, RB, LB, even safety if we trade down. WR would be hard to justify at the 12 spot even without a proven #2 on the roster.

I don't expect Denver to take a WR, although I think they would if the right guy fell to them or if they traded into the right spot.

I don't think Denver would shy away from Leodis McKelvin at 12.

[Ziggy]

The 12th pick of the draft for a nickel corner? I hope you're wrong on that one.

[r8rh8r]

The 12th pick of the draft for a nickel corner? I hope you're wrong on that one.

He's arguably the best kick/punt returner in the draft. He'd make an immediate impact on special teams, he'd add depth to the secondary. McKelvin could play FS or Nickel back. With all the injuries we've sustained at CB the last 2 seasons, I don't think he'd be wanting for playing time. Besides, he'd have 2 years to develop under 2 of the best corners in the game before making the jump to starter, at which point he could give us 6 great years or more.

[Lonestar]

He's arguably the best kick/punt returner in the draft. He'd make an immediate impact on special teams, he'd add depth to the secondary. McKelvin could play FS or Nickel back. With all the injuries we've sustained at CB the last 2 seasons, I don't think he'd be wanting for playing time. Besides, he'd have 2 years to develop under 2 of the best corners in the game before making the jump to starter, at which point he could give us 6 great years or more.

You do not waste a #1 on someone for two years from now, when we have HUGE holes to fill TODAY..

We got a great KR in the 3rd a few years ago and then they found out he could actually play CB so he stop returning..

[r8rh8r]

You do not waste a #1 on someone for two years from now, when we have HUGE holes to fill TODAY..

We got a great KR in the 3rd a few years ago and then they found out he could actually play CB so he stop returning..

We've got 4 guys on our depth chart at CB. Paymah is questionably worthy of a roster slot on any NFL team and Foxworth will most likely jump ship next year. That leaves the oft-injured and aging Champ Bailey and Dre Bly. I agree that we aren't hurting at the position, but I would classify CB as a "need" in this year's draft. The fact that McKelvin can fill an IMMEDIATE need on special teams AND fill out needed depth in the secondary AND perhaps blossom into a superstar all--in combination--make him an attractive pick.

[Lonestar]

We've got 4 guys on our depth chart at CB. Paymah is questionably worthy of a roster slot on any NFL team and Foxworth will most likely jump ship next year. That leaves the oft-injured and aging Champ Bailey and Dre Bly. I agree that we aren't hurting at the position, but I would classify CB as a "need" in this year's draft. The fact that McKelvin can fill an IMMEDIATE need on special teams AND fill out needed depth in the secondary AND perhaps blossom into a superstar all--in combination--make him an attractive pick.

Champ is hardly aging most superstar CB play well into their late 30's. His play has not suffered from past injuries.

If we had an actual needs for CB perhaps, but since our real needs are DT, OLINE, FS, LB, oh hell everything but CB, TE and QB..

Lets fill them first and if their is a KR type on day two great go for it..

[r8rh8r]

Champ is hardly aging most superstar CB play well into their late 30's. His play has not suffered from past injuries.

If we had an actual needs for CB perhaps, but since our real needs are DT, OLINE, FS, LB, oh hell everything but CB, TE and QB..

Lets fill them first and if their is a KR type on day two great go for it..

I think if you are a team with a sense of urgency, that's great logic. But Denver doesn't have a sense of urgency. We have some building blocks to be formidable in the next 2-3 years, and need to keep adding talent. Better to take the best talents than to desperately try and fill holes out of need. We aren't a desperate team.

[Ziggy]

We've got 4 guys on our depth chart at CB. Paymah is questionably worthy of a roster slot on any NFL team and Foxworth will most likely jump ship next year. That leaves the oft-injured and aging Champ Bailey and Dre Bly. I agree that we aren't hurting at the position, but I would classify CB as a "need" in this year's draft. The fact that McKelvin can fill an IMMEDIATE need on special teams AND fill out needed depth in the secondary AND perhaps blossom into a superstar all--in combination--make him an attractive pick.

Champ has started 140 out of 144 games in his career. If that's oft injured, what would Ben Hamilton be considered? We have HUGE holes to fill in other areas that we will need a player in now and in 2 or 3 years. A corner makes no sense with the 12th pick.

[WARHORSE]

After Malcolm Kelly laid an egg at his workout last week, Sweed is probably the first receiver drafted this year. Who's gonna go ahead of him?


He may be the first taken, but if we draft the BAA like you said we should(and I agree), then we definitely wont be taking Sweed. Hes not ranked very high when it comes to overall ability regardless of position.

[r8rh8r]

He may be the first taken, but if we draft the BAA like you said we should(and I agree), then we definitely wont be taking Sweed. Hes not ranked very high when it comes to overall ability regardless of position.

World class speed, great size, great hands. He's technically (as in route running) below-the-bar but I think as far as raw athleticism goes, its hard to find a better player in any round this year. That said, Sweed is probably going to take a year or two to reach his potential, and that's all predicated on how hard he works. He's a wildcard in this year's draft. I could see him going as early as #11 to Buffalo. I don't think Denver will take a wide receiver.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

A selection of a cornerback at #12 wouldn't be that shocking at all; considering the age (even though cornerbacks can play well into their 30's) of Dre and Champ -- but moreso with Foxworth and Paymah being UFA's next season. Obviously there are bigger needs on the team, but I wouldn't be surprised if a CB was selected.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Devin Thomas is probably the only legit first-round talent at receiver. Maybe DeSean Jackson; but I don't really think Sweed is worth a first-rounder. Based off what? He barely played this year at all; and even when he played -- did not stand out at all.

[WARHORSE]

A selection of a cornerback at #12 wouldn't be that shocking at all; considering the age (even though cornerbacks can play well into their 30's) of Dre and Champ -- but moreso with Foxworth and Paymah being UFA's next season. Obviously there are bigger needs on the team, but I wouldn't be surprised if a CB was selected.


In the end, it all depends on where each player is placed on the Broncos draft board.

I doubt corner, but if the Broncos thought Leodis were the best player available......................who knows.


Besides Hamrob that is.;)

[Requiem / The Dagda]

In the end, it all depends on where each player is placed on the Broncos draft board.

I doubt corner, but if the Broncos thought Leodis were the best player available......................who knows.


Besides Hamrob that is.;)

I don't get why people get on Hamrob's jock. The Broncos more than likely are not going to trade up. The idea of a trade up for the Broncos given their current laundry list of needs (and much more) is completely ridiculous. There's not one good reason for trading up given our situation. Not one.

[r8rh8r]

Devin Thomas is probably the only legit first-round talent at receiver. Maybe DeSean Jackson; but I don't really think Sweed is worth a first-rounder. Based off what? He barely played this year at all; and even when he played -- did not stand out at all.

Mario Manningham is probably a first rounder. If Sweed drops, it will be because of his wrist injury. There's not a more complete receiver available in this year's draft. Jackson is 170lbs.... let that sink in....170...and there are a half a dozen better kicker returners in this year's draft. Sweed has a far better resume than 1-year-wonder Devin Thomas. I don't know why one solid senior season is so much better than 3 dominant years and an injury year??

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Mario Manningham is probably a first rounder.

Talent wise and upside, probably. In light of the marijuana concerns? Probably not.


If Sweed drops, it will be because of his wrist injury. There's not a more complete receiver available in this year's draft. Jackson is 170lbs.... let that sink in....170...and there are a half a dozen better kicker returners in this year's draft. Sweed has a far better resume than 1-year-wonder Devin Thomas. I don't know why one solid senior season is so much better than 3 dominant years and an injury year??

Limas Sweed never had one dominant year in college, let alone three. Oh, and captain obvious on the wrist injury. I thought that was already established.

I'm probably not going to bother with the short-sighted analysis of Jackson either, because it's not worth wasting my time, but have fun with that.

[Simple Jaded]

I have to agree with those that don't think Denver will draft a LT in the 1st round, I'm convinced that Denver actually believes Harris was one of the top LT prospects in the 07 draft, regardless of the fact that 32 teams passed on him twice......including the Broncos.

There is just no way of knowing who the Broncos will draft, but history tells me the Broncos have no use for a talent like Clady or Williams or even Albert, because their bread is buttered on the side of that Mythical running game, not on a 2008 version of it.

I expect more of the same until Shanahan is no longer coaching this team, cause when Shanahan looks at Ryan Harris he sees Gary Zimmerman/Tony Jones not Ryan Harris......

[Ziggy]

I have to agree with those that don't think Denver will draft a LT in the 1st round, I'm convinced that Denver actually believes Harris was one of the top LT prospects in the 07 draft, regardless of the fact that 32 teams passed on him twice......including the Broncos.

There is just no way of knowing who the Broncos will draft, but history tells me the Broncos have no use for a talent like Clady or Williams or even Albert, because their bread is buttered on the side of that Mythical running game, not on a 2008 version of it.

I expect more of the same until Shanahan is no longer coaching this team, cause when Shanahan looks at Ryan Harris he sees Gary Zimmerman/Tony Jones not Ryan Harris......

It's the back injury that worries me more than the lack of playing time last year. Pushing 250-300 pound lineman around can wreak havoc on a bad back. If Denver passes on a possible franchise LT in the first round, I hope that Ryan Harris is healthy and everything that they think he is.

[TXBRONC]

I have to agree with those that don't think Denver will draft a LT in the 1st round, I'm convinced that Denver actually believes Harris was one of the top LT prospects in the 07 draft, regardless of the fact that 32 teams passed on him twice......including the Broncos.

There is just no way of knowing who the Broncos will draft, but history tells me the Broncos have no use for a talent like Clady or Williams or even Albert, because their bread is buttered on the side of that Mythical running game, not on a 2008 version of it.

I expect more of the same until Shanahan is no longer coaching this team, cause when Shanahan looks at Ryan Harris he sees Gary Zimmerman/Tony Jones not Ryan Harris......

Harris fell to the 3rd round because he a poor senior season and if I'm not mistaken had back injury. Also according to Mel Kiper had Harris come out after his junior season he would have been 1st round pick. Link I also don't any of the talking heads (although there probably was some) saying taking Harris in the 3rd was mistake.

Come on Link I don't that's fair to say Shanahan has no use for talent like Clady or Williams. First off while I wouldn't complain about drafting Clady there are several offensive tackles I would take ahead of Clady. Albert, Williams, and Otah come to mind tackles I would take ahead of Clady. Second if we take a running back in the first round which I think is possible I wouldn't have problem with it, which means more likely it would be Stewart or Mendenhall.

[TXBRONC]

It's the back injury that worries me more than the lack of playing time last year. Pushing 250-300 pound lineman around can wreak havoc on a bad back. If Denver passes on a possible franchise LT in the first round, I hope that Ryan Harris is healthy and everything that they think he is.

Rookie offensive line haven't started for Denver the past for good reason. It takes time to get the timing of zone blocking scheme down. So the fact that Harris didn't play last season I don't think is anything to worry about in and of itself.

As it stands even if we don't a tackle in this draft Harris has to compete with Chris Kuper for that left tackle position. In my opinion I would give the edge to Kuper right now for a couple of reasons. First, he's already played a full season on the line. Second, he has mean streak in him that I like.

[Simple Jaded]

Harris fell to the 3rd round because he a poor senior season and if I'm not mistaken had back injury. Also according to Mel Kiper had Harris come out after his junior season he would have been 1st round pick. Link I also don't any of the talking heads (although there probably was some) saying taking Harris in the 3rd was mistake.

Come on Link I don't that's fair to say Shanahan has no use for talent like Clady or Williams. First off while I wouldn't complain about drafting Clady there are several offensive tackles I would take ahead of Clady. Albert, Williams, and Otah come to mind tackles I would take ahead of Clady. Second if we take a running back in the first round which I think is possible I wouldn't have problem with it, which means more likely it would be Stewart or Mendenhall.

It's not meant to be an insult, TX, I believe Shanahan would rather have Harris than Williams/Clady......Lepsis than Willie Roaf......Holland/Hamilton than Justin Blalock. It's not meant to be an unfair statement, just an observation.

For whatever reason, Shanahan has drastically different wants in OLman than 99% of the football world.

And I'm with you on the ranking of the tackle prospects, I could be talked into liking Williams over Clady, I really like what I've read about Albert, but I think Otah would be too much of a deviation from the norm to work in Denver.

Personally, I'm praying that Denver takes Stewart, although Mendenhall would be nice too.

Harris dropped because he has a lot of question marks, his back, his lack of strength/power/explosiveness, he won't fit every scheme, he can't hold weight, some question his tenacity. So if Harris hurt his stock by returning for SR season, maybe it's because he was exposed for being exactly what he is, a 3rd round talent that fits best in what Denver/Houston are doing......

[TXBRONC]

It's not meant to be an insult, TX, I believe Shanahan would rather have Harris than Williams/Clady......Lepsis than Willie Roaf......Holland/Hamilton than Justin Blalock. It's not meant to be an unfair statement, just an observation.

For whatever reason, Shanahan has drastically different wants in OLman than 99% of the football world.

And I'm with you on the ranking of the tackle prospects, I could be talked into liking Williams over Clady, I really like what I've read about Albert, but I think Otah would be too much of a deviation from the norm to work in Denver.

Personally, I'm praying that Denver takes Stewart, although Mendenhall would be nice too.

Harris dropped because he has a lot of question marks, his back, his lack of strength/power/explosiveness, he won't fit every scheme, he can't hold weight, some question his tenacity. So if Harris hurt his stock by returning for SR season, maybe it's because he was exposed for being exactly what he is, a 3rd round talent that fits best in what Denver/Houston are doing......


True it could be that he was exposed, however as mentioned he was coming off of a back injury that would effect strength, power, and explosiveness. Shanahan isn't going to just hand him the job, the last I heard he's going to have to compete with Chris Kuper. Quite honestly I like Kuper over Harris because he's already started 16 games and I hear he does have mean streak.

[Simple Jaded]

True it could be that he was exposed, however as mentioned he was coming off of a back injury that would effect strength, power, and explosiveness. Shanahan isn't going to just hand him the job, the last I heard he's going to have to compete with Chris Kuper. Quite honestly I like Kuper over Harris because he's already started 16 games and I hear he does have mean streak.

I have hope for Harris, I'm just not convinced of anything, he's a huge question mark.

And I really like Chris Kuper, but he's also a huge question mark for LT.

The LT situation is so uncertain and cloudy, I don't see how anybody could be confident about the position (Pears? C'mon!), and drafting a Potential Franchise LT would at least show you're not blind to the situation. It's sure would restore a bit of confidence I used to have in Shanahan, not that he cares.


But Jonathan Stewart will do fine......

[underrated29]

I think we are all starting to understand the harris thing. OT in the 1st doubtful.

Harris had back surgery but thats why they do surgery to fix problems. It might not be fixed or as strong, but if he wasnt shanny wouldnt keep him on the roster.

Daruis watts lasted 4 games before he was pulled. Shanny gave him another chance and he blew it and we cut him. Same for harris. They gave his injury a run, they evidently loved what they saw from him in practice. But he still has to prove it. So kupes gets the first nod.

I dont think he has a bad back. I think he did have a bad back, and it might not last as long as a guy like lepsis (10 years), but just saying he has a bad back seems a little foolish to me. If it was bad we wouldnt keep him around.

Would you? course not. So now it comes down to does the man have the skills to beat out and experienced player (2 years), or does he need another year to marinate, or is he a lost couse in terms of being exposed and injury.

I think He wins it out right. Plus i like kupes better on the inside.

[TXBRONC]

I have hope for Harris, I'm just not convinced of anything, he's a huge question mark.

And I really like Chris Kuper, but he's also a huge question mark for LT.

The LT situation is so uncertain and cloudy, I don't see how anybody could be confident about the position (Pears? C'mon!), and drafting a Potential Franchise LT would at least show you're not blind to the situation. It's sure would restore a bit of confidence I used to have in Shanahan, not that he cares.


But Jonathan Stewart will do fine......


Right now anyone we put at left tackle would have some question marks unless we came across a veteran left tackle with a solid resume. Kuper is going be starting this year somewhere on the offensive line. It could be left tackle but I also heard that he could easily be moved to right tackle.

[underrated29]

I have hope for Harris, I'm just not convinced of anything, he's a huge question mark.

And I really like Chris Kuper, but he's also a huge question mark for LT.

The LT situation is so uncertain and cloudy, I don't see how anybody could be confident about the position (Pears? C'mon!), and drafting a Potential Franchise LT would at least show you're not blind to the situation. It's sure would restore a bit of confidence I used to have in Shanahan, not that he cares.


But Jonathan Stewart will do fine......



you are right. But i dont hitnk he is blind to it. My biggest problem with this is we used a 3rd on harris, and now a 1st on another LT. To me thats a total waste of a 3rd, for backup duties. You use a 6th for that. A 3rd should be a potential starter/probowl in a couple years. Not someone to be replaced with a first next year.

Who knows.....

[TXBRONC]

you are right. But i dont think he is blind to it. My biggest problem with this is we used a 3rd on harris, and now a 1st on another LT. To me thats a total waste of a 3rd, for backup duties. You use a 6th for that. A 3rd should be a potential starter/probowl in a couple years. Not someone to be replaced with a first next year.

Who knows.....


I don't think it would be a waist if Harris is able to provide solid depth.

[Simple Jaded]

I think we are all starting to understand the harris thing. OT in the 1st doubtful.

Harris had back surgery but thats why they do surgery to fix problems. It might not be fixed or as strong, but if he wasnt shanny wouldnt keep him on the roster.

Daruis watts lasted 4 games before he was pulled. Shanny gave him another chance and he blew it and we cut him. Same for harris. They gave his injury a run, they evidently loved what they saw from him in practice. But he still has to prove it. So kupes gets the first nod.

I dont think he has a bad back. I think he did have a bad back, and it might not last as long as a guy like lepsis (10 years), but just saying he has a bad back seems a little foolish to me. If it was bad we wouldnt keep him around.

Would you? course not. So now it comes down to does the man have the skills to beat out and experienced player (2 years), or does he need another year to marinate, or is he a lost couse in terms of being exposed and injury.

I think He wins it out right. Plus i like kupes better on the inside.

So the surgery he had in college was supposed to do something other than fix a problem?

Not to take taking issue with your optimism, just wondering if you knew his back has been operated on twice, once since being in the NFL, once the July before. This very well could be an issue in Harris' career......

[Requiem / The Dagda]

I think people are making a pretty big deal out of Harris' back. I mean, how many surgeries did Neil and Schlereth have? A crap ton.

[Ziggy]

I think people are making a pretty big deal out of Harris' back. I mean, how many surgeries did Neil and Schlereth have? A crap ton.

Schlereth never had surgery on his back. The back is the support pillar for the entire body, that's why folks with back problems normally don't last long in pro sports.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Schlereth never had surgery on his back. The back is the support pillar for the entire body, that's why folks with back problems normally don't last long in pro sports.

I'm no doctor but I'm willing to bet that Dan Neil having 9 surgeries on his knees and Mark Schlereth having a dozen are just as concerning, if not more than Ryan Harris having two minor back surgeries.

[tubby]

Once the back goes, the guy becomes pretty much worthless. Ask cswil.

[shank]

Once the back goes, the guy becomes pretty much worthless. Ask cswil.

once your eyes go, the guy is worthless, but you don't write a guy off for having lasek...

i agree with dream that from what i heard, both surgeries were pretty minor, and also from what i've heard the most recent one was successful. i have faith that modern medical tech can make the back problems a non-factor.

[Ziggy]

once your eyes go, the guy is worthless, but you don't write a guy off for having lasek...

i agree with dream that from what i heard, both surgeries were pretty minor, and also from what i've heard the most recent one was successful. i have faith that modern medical tech can make the back problems a non-factor.

They said the first one was successful too. That's why he was drafted in the 3rd round. Modern medical technology is great, I know, I work in the field. But back injuries are cumulative, and once you weaken the disks, they are never as strong as they were to begin with.

[WARHORSE]

I don't get why people get on Hamrob's jock. The Broncos more than likely are not going to trade up. The idea of a trade up for the Broncos given their current laundry list of needs (and much more) is completely ridiculous. There's not one good reason for trading up given our situation. Not one.


Not to you there isnt. Unless of course, some team offers you something you think is a steal on our behalf, no? No one around here is saying we think that the Broncos are looking to move up. There also isnt anyone, except one, that is able to stand there and say that they know for sure that Denver is NOT moving up...........that would be Hamrob.

Now if you said to me you know for sure the Broncos arent going to move up, Id tell you you dont know jack.

No one does.

Cept Hamrob.

And I for one aint trying to ride his jock about it, but Im gonna say what I think just like the next guy in here. I'll try my best to be respectful about it, but I will tell someone to bite me every now and again if Im havin a bad day, and probably apologize for it later.

Its just hard to have a discussion with someone who is on a broncos discussion forum that speaks from the standpoint of 'I know what theyre going to do and not going to do.....for sure."

He has that right...........but if hes gonna fire them bullets around here, he's probably gonna have to eat some lead himself.


And thats all thats happening. Part of being in a forum like this.

Hamrob, I got no ill feelings towards ya.............I just dont agree.

Thats all.:beer:

[WARHORSE]

I don't think it would be a waist if Harris is able to provide solid depth.


Agreed. I honestly think that if theres a reason he isnt starting, its because hes not strong enough yet, or at least not as strong as the other linemen. But either way, he provides depth across the board. He should be able to play any position along the line, with the possible exception of center, but I think even that position he has the mind for.

Harris has the ability. Although the injury concerns were there, I simply think hes not quite as strong, and mean as they want him to play.

[r8rh8r]

For whatever reason, Shanahan has drastically different wants in OLman than 99% of the football world.

This is precisely why Denver is able to find quality offensive lineman on the second day. Denver demands players who are in a market that has a surplus of talent. When you run the same power-blocking scheme that 90% of the league uses, you pay more and work harder to get the same result.

[underrated29]

Yes he would be a solid backup, be we can always find a solid backup in the 6th or 7th rds. Not the 3rd. Tahts just too high of a pick for a backup. Especially in our system.


And yes his back might not hold up forever. But if we can get 5-7 years out of it that would ideal.


who it the medical guy? How long do you think a guy with minor back surgeries can last? I am sure its atleast 3-5 years wcs, right?

That would be ample time for us to reevaluate the potition later.

[Lonestar]

This is precisely why Denver is able to find quality offensive lineman on the second day. Denver demands players who are in a market that has a surplus of talent. When you run the same power-blocking scheme that 90% of the league uses, you pay more and work harder to get the same result.


This is precisely why our red zone production sucks..

Trick plays as much less effective inside the 10 as there is very little field the opposing defense has to defend the LB and safeties can all stay at home do not have to play 10 yards deep.

Until we get some beef on the OLINE that can power block as well as ZB we will continue to be second maybe even third tier in the redzone..

It all started after Zimmerman and company started to retire, we went with "more athletic" less bulk, less skilled and it showed.. the farther we got away from those super bowl years the less effective we have been in the redzone... and inside the 5 pathetic..

[shank]

This is precisely why our red zone production sucks..

Trick plays as much less effective inside the 10 as there is very little field the opposing defense has to defend the LB and safeties can all stay at home do not have to play 10 yards deep.

Until we get some beef on the OLINE that can power block as well as ZB we will continue to be second maybe even third tier in the redzone..

It all started after Zimmerman and company started to retire, we went with "more athletic" less bulk, less skilled and it showed.. the farther we got away from those super bowl years the less effective we have been in the redzone... and inside the 5 pathetic..

see, i'd rather stick with late round OL and get some sexy picks like jon stewart, jordy nelson, and owen schmitt in here to fix that :D

[r8rh8r]

This is precisely why our red zone production sucks..

Trick plays as much less effective inside the 10 as there is very little field the opposing defense has to defend the LB and safeties can all stay at home do not have to play 10 yards deep.

Until we get some beef on the OLINE that can power block as well as ZB we will continue to be second maybe even third tier in the redzone..

It all started after Zimmerman and company started to retire, we went with "more athletic" less bulk, less skilled and it showed.. the farther we got away from those super bowl years the less effective we have been in the redzone... and inside the 5 pathetic..

Empirically, you are wrong. Denver has been very effective running the ball in the red zone using the zone blocking scheme. It's a running back problem.

[Ziggy]

see, i'd rather stick with late round OL and get some sexy picks like jon stewart, jordy nelson, and owen schmitt in here to fix that :D

And I'd rather bring in a stud LT in the first round and get some sexy picks like Jordy Nelson and Owen Shmitt in here to help fix that in later rounds.

[Ziggy]

Empirically, you are wrong. Denver has been very effective running the ball in the red zone using the zone blocking scheme. It's a running back problem.

Are you kidding me or have you been watching a different Bronco team? Our red zone offense sucks. Period. In 2007 the Broncos were 21st in redzone TD efficiency. That's more than a RB problem.

[shank]

And I'd rather bring in a stud LT in the first round and get some sexy picks like Jordy Nelson and Owen Shmitt in here to help fix that in later rounds.

i've thought about this a lot, and tried several times to swap out stewart for albert or williams in my mock... but stewart is just so sexy! lol. i'm trying hard not to be 'that guy' but i want to see what a 1st round running back can do here in denver really bad.

if i did swap OL as our first rounder, i'd find a way to get xavier omon in the 5th and just continue what we've been doing forever. maybe even do it a little better with a new beast on the OL :salute:

[shank]

Are you kidding me or have you been watching a different Bronco team? Our red zone offense sucks. Period.

and i agree with this. runs up the middle for no gain, runs outside for losses, abandonment of the passing game (where are the fade routes and comebacks?!), and trick plays just straight up fail once we get inside the 20.

from now on we should just run out of bounds at the 21 and take our shots from there, i think we'd be much better off.

[Lonestar]

Are you kidding me or have you been watching a different Bronco team? Our red zone offense sucks. Period. In 2007 the Broncos were 21st in redzone TD efficiency. That's more than a RB problem.


Guess we have been watching the "other" redzone team.. We had a few inside the 3 yard line runs from Mike bell a couple of years ago.. Where is he now?

This team implodes in the red zone. One of the reasons Elam is a NFL leader in FG inside the 40..

[r8rh8r]

Are you kidding me or have you been watching a different Bronco team? Our red zone offense sucks. Period. In 2007 the Broncos were 21st in redzone TD efficiency. That's more than a RB problem.

So let me see if I follow your logic: Denver had a bad red zone offense in 2007, therefore the entire zone blocking scheme is inept in the red zone.

Did I just about nail it?

My argument: Denver has consistently been an elite team in terms of red zone TD % since Shanahan started coaching Denver. The zone blocking scheme works, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

One bad year doesn't negate 12 years of exceptional output.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

There hasn't been twelve years of exceptional output -- the Broncos have struggled in the Red Zone for the past several years now. It has been an problem that has been brought up for a while.

[Lonestar]

So let me see if I follow your logic: Denver had a bad red zone offense in 2007, therefore the entire zone blocking scheme is inept in the red zone.

Did I just about nail it?

My argument: Denver has consistently been an elite team in terms of red zone TD % since Shanahan started coaching Denver. The zone blocking scheme works, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

One bad year doesn't negate 12 years of exceptional output.

Times have changed mikey has not.. the past few years we have sucked in the redzone.. not just last year it has been a downhill ride since ZIM and group left..

[r8rh8r]

Guess we have been watching the "other" redzone team.. We had a few inside the 3 yard line runs from Mike bell a couple of years ago.. Where is he now?

This team implodes in the red zone. One of the reasons Elam is a NFL leader in FG inside the 40..

Red Zone TD % Rank:

2006: 12th
2005: 7th
2004: 28th
2003: 8th

Which team have YOU been watching? Apparently you've discovered the exception that disproves the rule!

[Ziggy]

So let me see if I follow your logic: Denver had a bad red zone offense in 2007, therefore the entire zone blocking scheme is inept in the red zone.

Did I just about nail it?

My argument: Denver has consistently been an elite team in terms of red zone TD % since Shanahan started coaching Denver. The zone blocking scheme works, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

One bad year doesn't negate 12 years of exceptional output.

In 2006 they were 12th, in 2005 they were 7th, in 2004 they were 27th. So in the last 4 season they averaged 17th in the NFL. If you're happy with that, then missing the playoffs every year shouldn't bother you.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Times have changed mikey has not.. the past few years we have sucked in the redzone.. not just last year it has been a downhill ride since ZIM and group left..

Thats what happens when you don't have a good runningback and QB who knows what to do with the ball in the red zone.

Elway knew how to use his fullback, tightends, and receivers.... Plummer made bad decisions and often played like a rookie and Cutler is still learning the role himself.

[r8rh8r]

In 2006 they were 12th, in 2005 they were 7th, in 2004 they were 27th. So in the last 4 season they averaged 17th in the NFL. If you're happy with that, then missing the playoffs every year shouldn't bother you.

A median of 12th (including 2003) is a more descriptive statistic since your sample is skewed. I'm happy with that, yes.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

A median of 12th is a more descriptive statistic since your sample is skewed. I'm happy with that, yes.

I'm willing to bet that Shanahan isn't stoked in regards to our red zone mediocrity.

[r8rh8r]

I'm willing to bet that Shanahan isn't stoked in regards to our red zone mediocrity.

Probably not in 2007. I don't think he's ready to abandon his scheme and I think he'd be insulted if you told him his red zone offense has sucked every since Zimmerman retired.

[Ziggy]

Thats what happens when you don't have a good runningback and QB who knows what to do with the ball in the red zone.

Elway knew how to use his fullback, tightends, and receivers.... Plummer made bad decisions and often played like a rookie and Cutler is still learning the role himself.

Boss you're right to a point, but Elway had time to throw behind a great offensive line, a hall of fame LT, TE, an MVP running back, and Rod Smith and Eddie Mac in thier prime. His team was a LOT more talented all the way around than the teams of the past 7 or 8 years. Plummer had inferior talent around him but still made horrible unforced errors at times, and Cutler has no time to make decisions before he has someone in his face on most passing plays.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

Probably not in 2007. I don't think he's ready to abandon his scheme and I think he'd be insulted if you told him his red zone offense has sucked every since Zimmerman retired.

Well, those are two things that I never instigated in the first place -- so you're bringing up those points to the wrong guy.

[r8rh8r]

Well, those are two things that I never instigated in the first place -- so you're bringing up those points to the wrong guy.

Fair enough.

[Ziggy]

Probably not in 2007. I don't think he's ready to abandon his scheme and I think he'd be insulted if you told him his red zone offense has sucked every since Zimmerman retired.

I think he'd be insulted if we told him that his GM skills suck also, but he'll get over it. Truth hurts, and he's still making millions and building mansions.

[r8rh8r]

I think he'd be insulted if we told him that his GM skills suck also, but he'll get over it. Truth hurts, and he's still making millions and building mansions.

Wow, the fair-weather fans are out in full force this year. You'll whistle a different tune when things improve in the next 2 years. All this jabberwocky is fueled by one frustrating, injury-plagued season. If Denver fires Shanahan you won't like the alternative, I promise.

Also, the mansion comment wreaks of someone who doesn't understand why, from a tax perspective, Shanahan would be a fool to build a smaller house. When you profit heavily from a primary residence, either you spend all the proceeds on another house or you give it all to uncle sam. Shanahan sold his previous 6000 square foot residence for over $2000 a square foot. He didn't want to sell, but someone made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Now he's stuck trying to protect his money from the IRS, and moving it all into a new primary residence is far and away the most profitable way to do that.

By comparison, I paid $185 a square foot for the place I'm living in. High-end real estate in D.C. goes for between $450 and $1000 a square foot. Shanahan has a lot of money to bury.

[Skinny]

He built his own personal retirement home. Now all he'll have to do is find a compassionate individual to change his diapers daily and he's set for life ...

[shank]

i don't recall anyone saying we should abandon the scheme, they are just lobbying for some dominant players to return the scheme to what it once was. if we can be average in the redzone with scrub olineman, then can't we be good in the redzone with decent lineman?

i kind of thought that's the way we were heading when we selected ryan harris.

[Ziggy]

Wow, the fair-weather fans are out in full force this year. You'll whistle a different tune when things improve in the next 2 years. All this jabberwocky is fueled by one frustrating, injury-plagued season. If Denver fires Shanahan you won't like the alternative, I promise.

Also, the mansion comment wreaks of someone who doesn't understand why, from a tax perspective, Shanahan would be a fool to build a smaller house. When you profit heavily from a primary residence, either you spend all the proceeds on another house or you give it all to uncle sam. Shanahan sold his previous 6000 square foot residence for over $2000 a square foot. He didn't want to sell, but someone made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Now he's stuck trying to protect his money from the IRS, and moving it all into a new primary residence is far and away the most profitable way to do that.

By comparison, I paid $185 a square foot for the place I'm living in. High-end real estate in D.C. goes for between $450 and $1000 a square foot. Shanahan has a lot of money to bury.

Fair weather fans. I was a Bronco fan long before they ever started winning. I'm a huge fan of Shanahan the coach, but Shanahan the personel guy has diminished the talent on this team yearly. Being a fan of the Broncos doesn't mean that you put on Orange colored glasses and pretend like they are the most talented team in the NFL. It means sticking with them through thick and thin, which I have done and will continue to do. Being a fan DOES give you the right to voice your opinion, even if it means hurting the feelings of someone who doesn't want to wake up and smell the coffee.

The overall talent on this team is lacking. Shanahan is to blame. Even if he didn't make the draft picks, he either hired the people who did, or let them keep thier jobs for way too long.

[Lonestar]

i don't recall anyone saying we should abandon the scheme, they are just lobbying for some dominant players to return the scheme to what it once was. if we can be average in the redzone with scrub olineman, then can't we be good in the redzone with decent lineman?

i kind of thought that's the way we were heading when we selected ryan harris.



There you go thinking again.. ;)

That said for everyone else..

YES we can get by with no name scrubs..

But why do we want to just get by, like we have been for 7-8 years..

Time for mikey to remember that games are won and LOST on the LOS..

Lately we have been getting BEAT up on the LOS on both sides.. Inside the REDZONE in particular that is where th rubber meets the road..

[Simple Jaded]

This is precisely why Denver is able to find quality offensive lineman on the second day. Denver demands players who are in a market that has a surplus of talent. When you run the same power-blocking scheme that 90% of the league uses, you pay more and work harder to get the same result.

I've never looked at it that way, I usually just look at it like the Denver Broncos are just Bottom Feeders and Dumpster Shoppers......

[Simple Jaded]

Thats what happens when you don't have a good runningback and QB who knows what to do with the ball in the red zone.

Elway knew how to use his fullback, tightends, and receivers.... Plummer made bad decisions and often played like a rookie and Cutler is still learning the role himself.

These are valid points, I agree......that's one of the main reasons I like Jonathan Stewart in this draft.

But I think the difference in comparable talent on this OL is also a big culprit......