Draft-Day Defensive Line Solutions

[r8rh8r]

At this forum and at other fan sites, I've noticed a ton of discussion about the solution to Denver's abysmal defensive line. After failing to acquire a questionably-healthy Dwayne Robertson from the Jets, it appears we'll be trying to fill our gaping hole at defensive tackle on draft day. Trading up for Sedrick Ellis--something that I actually think became a greater possibility when Chris Henry was cut from the Bengals--is the most common solution posed to this problem. Ellis is no doubt a special talent, but there are a couple of issues. First, we need to add more than one defensive tackle in April. Second, Ellis isn't the best fit for our needs.

I don't think I'm alone in arguing that the prime culprit behind our 30th ranked run defense last season was Jim Bates' incompetent decision to eliminate 2-gap defenders from our scheme. Now that we've anointed his successor, we need to find a 2-gap presence to take some pressure of the ILB position on run downs. Thus, we need to find at least one defensive tackle capable of filling a 2-gap defender role in 2008. Who might that be?

Well, I'd love to hear some discussion about who you think are the best options in the draft. I've just finished an exhaustive write up of my opinion on the matter. You can read my article here:

Redressing Denver's Defensive Line: Draft Day DT's (http://rockymountainfever.blogspot.com/2008/04/redressing-denvers-defensive-line-draft.html)

[DenBronx]

i like the article. ellis would be ideal but we cant count of cincy passing on him. okam would be a steal in the 5th or 6th. we might go back to back dts on day two.

[Requiem / The Dagda]

All people really need to understand that drafting a defensive tackle rarely provides immediate help. It's a position that unless they're an elite caliber talent or just "get it" (few and far between) that it'll take a few years of development. It's not a short-term deal, it's a long-term deal. I'd like to draft a DT as well, but I get the impression that people think an early choice is going to be the immediate help we need to do well next year.

I think that's sort of wishful thinking.

[gobroncsnv]

Agree with you, in that we have a couple of years to go through to get back to being better than good enough to make the playoffs. But there can't be any doubt that we'll have trouble getting back to prominence with the dline we now have. We have let the front four go for far too many years, and just in the past couple of years have addressed it in any meaningful way. I'm ok with getting someone who might take some time to develop, but we have seen that stop gap players are not the answer. We have to get someone who is a people mover, who can stand his ground, at the all-world level. The Giants showed how much a difference a dominant dline can make. Their back 7 doesn't have anyone who really jumps off the page, but their game is truly elevated by the play of the front four.

[TXBRONC]

At this forum and at other fan sites, I've noticed a ton of discussion about the solution to Denver's abysmal defensive line. After failing to acquire a questionably-healthy Dwayne Robertson from the Jets, it appears we'll be trying to fill our gaping hole at defensive tackle on draft day. Trading up for Sedrick Ellis--something that I actually think became a greater possibility when Chris Henry was cut from the Bengals--is the most common solution posed to this problem. Ellis is no doubt a special talent, but there are a couple of issues. First, we need to add more than one defensive tackle in April. Second, Ellis isn't the best fit for our needs.

I don't think I'm alone in arguing that the prime culprit behind our 30th ranked run defense last season was Jim Bates' incompetent decision to eliminate 2-gap defenders from our scheme. Now that we've anointed his successor, we need to find a 2-gap presence to take some pressure of the ILB position on run downs. Thus, we need to find at least one defensive tackle capable of filling a 2-gap defender role in 2008. Who might that be?

Well, I'd love to hear some discussion about who you think are the best options in the draft. I've just finished an exhaustive write up of my opinion on the matter. You can read my article here:

Redressing Denver's Defensive Line: Draft Day DT's (http://rockymountainfever.blogspot.com/2008/04/redressing-denvers-defensive-line-draft.html)


I don't think that the release of Henry means that Bengals will draft a wide receiver in the first round if that is what you are getting at, that is unless they trade down.

[r8rh8r]

Houshmanzadeh will be 32 during 2008 season. If they lose Chad Johnson, the Bengals could turn over their entire receiving core in the next 24 months. Chris Henry has the talent to play flanker and to compete against the top corners in the league. In fact, Carson Palmer's YPA is almost a full yard better with Henry in the lineup. Rudi is nearing the end of a solid career, their offensive line wearing down, and they need players at all levels of their defense.

I'm not saying Cincy trades down to grab Kelly or Sweed, but I do think that they'd drop three slots in the draft to add an extra first day pick. Cincinnati was desperate to 'win now' before the Chris Henry debacle; I think that Henry's departure may have sobered Cincinnati up to the mess their in.

I'm not one of these guys whose hoping against hope that we move up to take Ellis. If you read the article then you can see I'm arguing against that strategy. Two weeks ago I didn't think it was even possible. Today, I think Ellis gets to #9 without a doubt, but not past #10. Given that Cincy doesn't have tunnel-vision for Ellis--which they have no reason to--the cost to move up 3 slots is a 4th rounder and some change.

Trading down is precisely what I was suggesting they might do.

[BOSSHOGG30]

I still think if we can get Glenn Dorsey or Sederick Ellis we need to do it. Thomas and Dorsey or Thomas and Ellis would give us an instant impact player on the D-line. Something we've needed for a long time.

[r8rh8r]

Agree with you, in that we have a couple of years to go through to get back to being better than good enough to make the playoffs. But there can't be any doubt that we'll have trouble getting back to prominence with the dline we now have. We have let the front four go for far too many years, and just in the past couple of years have addressed it in any meaningful way. I'm ok with getting someone who might take some time to develop, but we have seen that stop gap players are not the answer. We have to get someone who is a people mover, who can stand his ground, at the all-world level. The Giants showed how much a difference a dominant dline can make. Their back 7 doesn't have anyone who really jumps off the page, but their game is truly elevated by the play of the front four.

The problem with our line since 1998 has been chemistry. Either we defend the run effective and have no pass rush; or we have a pass rush and a porous run defense. For once we have marquis pass-rushers at end. Thomas is promising from the interior if he can keep himself out of jail and on the field. With Bates out of the way, we need to get back to the 2-gap scheme that made Al Wilson a pro bowler. We don't have to draft the next Reggie White to be successful. We can be a competitive defense if we can find some guys capable of taking on multiple gaps and multiple blockers. To the extent that we fill those roles, Niko's job will be a lot easier and the defense won't be exhausted at half time.

I remember last season, at home, against Jacksonville we had the ball for 21 minutes. We are going to get slaughtered next year if we don't fix that problem. The good news is that the type of talents we need to solve the problem aren't the most coveted defensive lineman in the draft. If we take 2 or 3 of those big bodies, I think we'll see an impact at every level of our defense.

[MHCBill]

I still think if we can get Glenn Dorsey or Sederick Ellis we need to do it. Thomas and Dorsey or Thomas and Ellis would give us an instant impact player on the D-line. Something we've needed for a long time.What he said...

As long as the price isn't too high, we need to go after one of those two if they drop out of the top 5.

Thomas/Dorsey

Thomas/Ellis

Looks good to me for the next 5-7 years, assuming Thomas doesn't get kicked out of the league.

If one of those two fall out of the top five I would offer the Pats at #7 our #1, Foxy, and our #5... in a heartbeat.

[broncohead]

We must get Dorsey or Ellis if either of them fall out of the top 5. Our run defense can't be ignored. Rubin or Harrison in the 4th could also be good picks.

[TXBRONC]

I still think if we can get Glenn Dorsey or Sederick Ellis we need to do it. Thomas and Dorsey or Thomas and Ellis would give us an instant impact player on the D-line. Something we've needed for a long time.


If Ellis or Dorsey slips to nine I don't have one problem with Shanahan moving up to draft either of them he if can.

[omac]

At this forum and at other fan sites, I've noticed a ton of discussion about the solution to Denver's abysmal defensive line. After failing to acquire a questionably-healthy Dwayne Robertson from the Jets, it appears we'll be trying to fill our gaping hole at defensive tackle on draft day. Trading up for Sedrick Ellis--something that I actually think became a greater possibility when Chris Henry was cut from the Bengals--is the most common solution posed to this problem. Ellis is no doubt a special talent, but there are a couple of issues. First, we need to add more than one defensive tackle in April. Second, Ellis isn't the best fit for our needs.

I don't think I'm alone in arguing that the prime culprit behind our 30th ranked run defense last season was Jim Bates' incompetent decision to eliminate 2-gap defenders from our scheme. Now that we've anointed his successor, we need to find a 2-gap presence to take some pressure of the ILB position on run downs. Thus, we need to find at least one defensive tackle capable of filling a 2-gap defender role in 2008. Who might that be?

Well, I'd love to hear some discussion about who you think are the best options in the draft. I've just finished an exhaustive write up of my opinion on the matter. You can read my article here:

Redressing Denver's Defensive Line: Draft Day DT's (http://rockymountainfever.blogspot.com/2008/04/redressing-denvers-defensive-line-draft.html)

Just wanted to say great blog! You write some really interesting articles. :salute:

[gobroncsnv]

The problem with our line since 1998 has been chemistry. Either we defend the run effective and have no pass rush; or we have a pass rush and a porous run defense. For once we have marquis pass-rushers at end. Thomas is promising from the interior if he can keep himself out of jail and on the field. With Bates out of the way, we need to get back to the 2-gap scheme that made Al Wilson a pro bowler. We don't have to draft the next Reggie White to be successful. We can be a competitive defense if we can find some guys capable of taking on multiple gaps and multiple blockers. To the extent that we fill those roles, Niko's job will be a lot easier and the defense won't be exhausted at half time.

I remember last season, at home, against Jacksonville we had the ball for 21 minutes. We are going to get slaughtered next year if we don't fix that problem. The good news is that the type of talents we need to solve the problem aren't the most coveted defensive lineman in the draft. If we take 2 or 3 of those big bodies, I think we'll see an impact at every level of our defense.

I agree that the better line play makes for better linebackers... Also about Thomas. I'd really like to see his game if he could line up next to another stud DT. But I'm not sure I go along with the idea that our only problems at dline were borne of chemistry or scheme. I think we really need to address the quality issue as well, which I think trumps the other two issues.
The Jax game was a stunning display of how we had none of the 3, quality, scheme, or chemistry. We literally got mowed over, which in turn, changed the approach of our offense late in the game. If you want to see if there was any early game last season that told us where we stood, look no further.
In the article, there are some descriptions of players who could help us to solve some of our problems, IF THEY PLAY AS ADVERTISED... and that's the whole nut of the draft, isn't it? We really need to "choose wisely". DT is one of the easiest positions to toss cash into a toilet.

[r8rh8r]

Just wanted to say great blog! You write some really interesting articles. :salute:

Thank you! I sincerely appreciate the feedback.

[r8rh8r]

I agree that the better line play makes for better linebackers... Also about Thomas. I'd really like to see his game if he could line up next to another stud DT. But I'm not sure I go along with the idea that our only problems at dline were borne of chemistry or scheme. I think we really need to address the quality issue as well, which I think trumps the other two issues.
The Jax game was a stunning display of how we had none of the 3, quality, scheme, or chemistry. We literally got mowed over, which in turn, changed the approach of our offense late in the game. If you want to see if there was any early game last season that told us where we stood, look no further.
In the article, there are some descriptions of players who could help us to solve some of our problems, IF THEY PLAY AS ADVERTISED... and that's the whole nut of the draft, isn't it? We really need to "choose wisely". DT is one of the easiest positions to toss cash into a toilet.

This argument that Denver lacks the "quality" component of the line is a hard one to defeat. This is probably one of those areas where my fan-bias gets in the way of sanity. To be honest, I have very little faith in Crowder or Moss--although I hope to be pleasantly surprised by both. Thomas I actually think can develop into a great talent, if he can stay out of trouble (which is a big 'if').

Lets pretend for a moment that Dumervil is the only impact player along our defensive front four. With Engelberger on the other side and Jarvis, Moss, and Ekuban as rotational depth, we are still stacked at end. If Denver loads up on gap defenders in the draft, we could conceivably be #15 to #20 against the run, which is a far cry better than we were in 2007.

[gobroncsnv]

Lets pretend for a moment that Dumervil is the only impact player along our defensive front four. With Engelberger on the other side and Jarvis, Moss, and Ekuban as rotational depth, we are still stacked at end. If Denver loads up on gap defenders in the draft, we could conceivably be #15 to #20 against the run, which is a far cry better than we were in 2007.


Elvis def stands out as our best dlineman on passing downs. I give more playging time to Moss and Crowder, and I think they'll come around. 'Berger has a great motor (wish they ALL were like him in that score), just a bit shy on talent. I don't want to challenge anybody in the front office, but I almost DEFY them to give us a worse run d. (but they could prove me wrong and just ignore it again...) We absolutely have to spend some capital at DT opposite Thomas for him, and the dline, and our winning percentage to improve. There are a lot of good names and great ideas we're kicking around, but Shanny & Co HAVE to get this SOLVED. Bring coaching, scheme, and pretty much everything else AFTER we get the quality we need.
Want to come out and say that I DO like your blog. Good to have you around. Thanks.

[TXBRONC]

Elvis def stands out as our best dlineman on passing downs. I give more playging time to Moss and Crowder, and I think they'll come around. 'Berger has a great motor (wish they ALL were like him in that score), just a bit shy on talent. I don't want to challenge anybody in the front office, but I almost DEFY them to give us a worse run d. (but they could prove me wrong and just ignore it again...) We absolutely have to spend some capital at DT opposite Thomas for him, and the dline, and our winning percentage to improve. There are a lot of good names and great ideas we're kicking around, but Shanny & Co HAVE to get this SOLVED. Bring coaching, scheme, and pretty much everything else AFTER we get the quality we need.
Want to come out and say that I DO like your blog. Good to have you around. Thanks.

I don't think Shanahan can ignore it, it's just to obvious that we need to strengthen the middle of our defensive line. Unfortunately the two best defensive tackles in this draft will be gone before pick.

[omac]

I don't think Shanahan can ignore it, it's just to obvious that we need to strengthen the middle of our defensive line. Unfortunately the two best defensive tackles in this draft will be gone before pick.

On a side note, in the pre-season 2006 issue of SportsNews, they had Marcus Thomas ranked as the top DT; they had Ellis at 10, and Dorsey at 15; they also had Okam at 5. The stocks of Dorsey and Ellis have rissen since then, but it has to feel good knowing that before his suspension, he was one of the best DTs in college, and we got him cheap. :cheers:

[Retired_Member_001]

All people really need to understand that drafting a defensive tackle rarely provides immediate help. It's a position that unless they're an elite caliber talent or just "get it" (few and far between) that it'll take a few years of development. It's not a short-term deal, it's a long-term deal. I'd like to draft a DT as well, but I get the impression that people think an early choice is going to be the immediate help we need to do well next year.

I think that's sort of wishful thinking.

Yeah exactly.

This is exactly why I wanted a FA DT. So we could get IMMEDIATE help and so we could go after other guys. Your average DT that is drafted in the first round takes about 2-3 years to develop. So expect 2-3 years of bad run stopping untill the young DT develops.

[Lonestar]

Yeah exactly.

This is exactly why I wanted a FA DT. So we could get IMMEDIATE help and so we could go after other guys. Your average DT that is drafted in the first round takes about 2-3 years to develop. So expect 2-3 years of bad run stopping untill the young DT develops.

One of two reason for that, most do not play immediately because the teams drafting them have already got good players there and are drafting for next year when those players are FA .. Or the other scenario is they are a Browns type teams that sucks so bad from the ground up that it is total ciaos.

[topscribe]

Yeah exactly.

This is exactly why I wanted a FA DT. So we could get IMMEDIATE help and so we could go after other guys. Your average DT that is drafted in the first round takes about 2-3 years to develop. So expect 2-3 years of bad run stopping untill the young DT develops.

I don't believe the run defense will be bad as all that. First, Thomas (who is
potentially elite) and McKinley (who admittedly is not) will have another year's
experience here in Denver. Second, Denver will be shed of Bates' failed system.
Third, Denver has upgraded their LB corps, with Koutouvides--whom Seattle
thinks is a good one against the run--in the middle and D.J. back to the
weak side--where he figures to be one of the better LBs at his natural
position.

Denver does need a DT or two, no doubt. But I believe they will surprise
this year in run defense. It's still the pass rush that concerns me.

-----

[topscribe]

This argument that Denver lacks the "quality" component of the line is a hard one to defeat. This is probably one of those areas where my fan-bias gets in the way of sanity. To be honest, I have very little faith in Crowder or Moss--although I hope to be pleasantly surprised by both. Thomas I actually think can develop into a great talent, if he can stay out of trouble (which is a big 'if').

Lets pretend for a moment that Dumervil is the only impact player along our defensive front four. With Engelberger on the other side and Jarvis, Moss, and Ekuban as rotational depth, we are still stacked at end. If Denver loads up on gap defenders in the draft, we could conceivably be #15 to #20 against the run, which is a far cry better than we were in 2007.

Crowder? :frown: Crowder had a really decent season this last year.
Remember, he was a rookie. Yes, I believe the jury is still out on Moss
because he didn't play long enough last year to prove himself, but the
Broncos have a player in Crowder, IMO.

-----

[BOSSHOGG30]

I think if Crowder, Thomas, or Moss can come in and take some pressure or blocks from Dumervil, then we will have one scary D-line. Right now little Doom is the only one that has enough talent to demand constant double teams. Someone has to step up.

[Lonestar]

I think if Crowder, Thomas, or Moss can come in and take some pressure or blocks from Dumervil, then we will have one scary D-line. Right now little Doom is the only one that has enough talent to demand constant double teams. Someone has to step up.

or we do the obvious thing draft a stud DT that will combine with Moss/Crowder, Thomas and Doom to become a great DL for the next 4-8 years..

[BOSSHOGG30]

This new rule could help too:

Broncos officials have privately mentioned that they are ecstatic about the new rule that an official will lineup to the side of the LT/RDE (or reserve side for a right-handed QB) to watch for holding. The rule was largely put in place many teams have complained about investing large money in RDE's who are constantly being held. It was mentioned the Broncos were a team particularly excited about the rule change as they felt RDE Elvis Dumervil was held as much or more than any other D-Lineman in the NFL last season due to his shorter height. The belief is that with the official standing at a different angle from the side, they can notice when Dumervil's extraordinarily long arms are being illegally hooked.

[broncohead]

This new rule could help too:

Broncos officials have privately mentioned that they are ecstatic about the new rule that an official will lineup to the side of the LT/RDE (or reserve side for a right-handed QB) to watch for holding. The rule was largely put in place many teams have complained about investing large money in RDE's who are constantly being held. It was mentioned the Broncos were a team particularly excited about the rule change as they felt RDE Elvis Dumervil was held as much or more than any other D-Lineman in the NFL last season due to his shorter height. The belief is that with the official standing at a different angle from the side, they can notice when Dumervil's extraordinarily long arms are being illegally hooked.

I'd also like to see more penalties on opposing OT on illegal hands to the face. Defenders aren't alloud to slap the head of an O-line but I constantly see OTs pushing and sometimes slaping the head of Elvis because of his height.

[r8rh8r]

Crowder? :frown: Crowder had a really decent season this last year.
Remember, he was a rookie. Yes, I believe the jury is still out on Moss
because he didn't play long enough last year to prove himself, but the
Broncos have a player in Crowder, IMO.

-----

To Crowder's credit, he seems to be a student of the game and a technician at his position. Jarvis Moss is purely a speed rusher. If his work ethic isn't there, he'll be useless in 3 years. Granted, we haven't seen much of Moss, but I don't feel good about his upside. He reminds me of Reggie Hayward (what's that guy done lately?). In the long run I think Crowder could provide great rotational depth as a fill in, but I don't see a guy headed for stardom. I hope he proves me wrong.

[TXBRONC]

To Crowder's credit, he seems to be a student of the game and a technician at his position. Jarvis Moss is purely a speed rusher. If his work ethic isn't there, he'll be useless in 3 years. Granted, we haven't seen much of Moss, but I don't feel good about his upside. He reminds me of Reggie Hayward (what's that guy done lately?). In the long run I think Crowder could provide great rotational depth as a fill in, but I don't see a guy headed for stardom. I hope he proves me wrong.

From what I understand Moss is hard worker. Also the coaching staff thought Moss was purely speed rusher but to their surprise they found he was a little more stout against the run than they had originally thought.

Personally I think Crowder has the tools to be starting defensive end.