ESPN-Denver Broncos On The Clock

[Italianmobstr7]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3332366

This is a team and a franchise going in the wrong direction. The Broncos now have their third defensive coordinator in three seasons, and GM Ted Sundquist, who seldom was used in personnel decisions despite his expertise in that area, was fired. Head coach Mike Shanahan is a darn good football coach, but his track record in personnel decisions has not been very good. With him calling the shots, they continue to make mistakes in free agency and there is not a lot of great, young talent on this team. Denver does have a potential future star in QB Jay Cutler, and he may be able to mask a lot of the other offensive and defensive issues. But make no mistake, personnel issues still exist, and they won't go away until Denver hires a GM and gives him the authority to oversee the personnel decisions.


Key Additions
Give the Broncos credit for not sitting on their hands this offseason, but their additions do not outweigh their losses. Denver did not add one proven young player or a veteran who is not clearly on the downside of his career. Former Carolina WR Keary Colbert has been a bust since his rookie season, when he caught 47 balls; he has caught only 62 in the three years since. S Marlon McCree is limited, and nobody should know this better than Denver, which tried to attack him twice every season when he was in San Diego. C Casey Wiegmann, signed from Kansas City, is set to begin his 13th NFL season, but he struggled last season. How much he has left in the tank remains to be seen. S Marquand Manuel parlayed one good season in Seattle into a free-agent deal with Green Bay. Denver is now his third team in four years and fourth in his six-year career. MLB Niko Koutouvides was a backup in Seattle. He was signed in an effort to get get D.J. Williams back to WLB, where he is a better fit, but it seems like Koutouvides is a reach there.

Boss Bailey is the best free agent Denver added, but he has not played up to expectations. Even when you look at the players Denver kept, you have to scratch your head. They re-signed DEs Ebenezer Ekuban, who is 31 and coming off a torn Achilles tendon, and John Engelberger, who had 41 tackles and a sack as a backup. Engelberger is a good worker, but this team needs some players on a shaky front four. It's hard to say Denver added one guy you could call a true quality starter out of these additions. Key Losses
Denver did not lose many players, but the few losses will be felt. LOT Matt Lepsis, the last remaining piece of what seemed like a pretty dominant offensive line only a few years ago, has retired. His loss means the Broncos now have questions at left offensive tackle and right offensive tackle. The team cut OLB Ian Gold, whose production dropped off last season. It's understandable why they let him go, but who takes over for him? The team parted ways with WR Javon Walker (Raiders). Yes, he was injured for much of last season, but his departure leaves the team with currently injured Brandon Marshall as the only legitimate threat outside. The team traded C Chris Myers to Houston for a sixth-round pick, even though a young Myers is a better starter than an aging Wiegmann.

The biggest loss will be PK Jason Elam (Falcons), who has been Mr. Clutch. Denver, for the first time in more than a decade, now will learn what it feels like to hold your breath every time the kicking team walks out onto the field. S Nick Ferguson (Texans) was not retained as a free agent, but Denver doesn't lose much there because it signed McCree. Though Denver did not lose a high number of players, the ones who left have not been replaced with upgrades.

Remaining Questions
"Where to begin?" is the correct question. Let's start with the offense. Marshall is now the No. 1 wideout, but is he mature enough to handle that spot, and will he have enough supporting weapons for him to succeed in that role? Right now, the answer to both of those questions appears to be no. With the retirement of Lepsis, there are questions at both tackle spots. On the other side of the ball, the defensive line is still in disarray as other than Elvis Dumervil there are no proven playmakers across the front four. The addition of Koutouvides allows Denver to move Williams back to the weak side, but there still will be a void in the middle. The safety position, even though the Broncos added McCree and Manuel to go with the aging John Lynch, is a sore spot.
Denver is solid in very few places. Running back will be solid, regardless who carries the load. Cutler is set at QB, Daniel Graham leads a solid group at tight end and Champ Bailey and Dre Bly give the Broncos a top tandem at CB. But Denver still has a ton of questions. Broncos fans won't want to hear this, but they are closer to losing their grip on second place in the AFC West to Oakland than they are to dethroning the San Diego Chargers for the top dog in this division.

[Lonestar]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3332366

This is a team and a franchise going in the wrong direction. The Broncos now have their third defensive coordinator in three seasons, and GM Ted Sundquist, who seldom was used in personnel decisions despite his expertise in that area, was fired. Head coach Mike Shanahan is a darn good football coach, but his track record in personnel decisions has not been very good. With him calling the shots, they continue to make mistakes in free agency and there is not a lot of great, young talent on this team. Denver does have a potential future star in QB Jay Cutler, and he may be able to mask a lot of the other offensive and defensive issues. But make no mistake, personnel issues still exist, and they won't go away until Denver hires a GM and gives him the authority to oversee the personnel decisions.


Key Additions
Give the Broncos credit for not sitting on their hands this offseason, but their additions do not outweigh their losses. Denver did not add one proven young player or a veteran who is not clearly on the downside of his career. Former Carolina WR Keary Colbert has been a bust since his rookie season, when he caught 47 balls; he has caught only 62 in the three years since. S Marlon McCree is limited, and nobody should know this better than Denver, which tried to attack him twice every season when he was in San Diego. C Casey Wiegmann, signed from Kansas City, is set to begin his 13th NFL season, but he struggled last season. How much he has left in the tank remains to be seen. S Marquand Manuel parlayed one good season in Seattle into a free-agent deal with Green Bay. Denver is now his third team in four years and fourth in his six-year career. MLB Niko Koutouvides was a backup in Seattle. He was signed in an effort to get get D.J. Williams back to WLB, where he is a better fit, but it seems like Koutouvides is a reach there.

Boss Bailey is the best free agent Denver added, but he has not played up to expectations. Even when you look at the players Denver kept, you have to scratch your head. They re-signed DEs Ebenezer Ekuban, who is 31 and coming off a torn Achilles tendon, and John Engelberger, who had 41 tackles and a sack as a backup. Engelberger is a good worker, but this team needs some players on a shaky front four. It's hard to say Denver added one guy you could call a true quality starter out of these additions. Key Losses
Denver did not lose many players, but the few losses will be felt. LOT Matt Lepsis, the last remaining piece of what seemed like a pretty dominant offensive line only a few years ago, has retired. His loss means the Broncos now have questions at left offensive tackle and right offensive tackle. The team cut OLB Ian Gold, whose production dropped off last season. It's understandable why they let him go, but who takes over for him? The team parted ways with WR Javon Walker (Raiders). Yes, he was injured for much of last season, but his departure leaves the team with currently injured Brandon Marshall as the only legitimate threat outside. The team traded C Chris Myers to Houston for a sixth-round pick, even though a young Myers is a better starter than an aging Wiegmann.

The biggest loss will be PK Jason Elam (Falcons), who has been Mr. Clutch. Denver, for the first time in more than a decade, now will learn what it feels like to hold your breath every time the kicking team walks out onto the field. S Nick Ferguson (Texans) was not retained as a free agent, but Denver doesn't lose much there because it signed McCree. Though Denver did not lose a high number of players, the ones who left have not been replaced with upgrades.

Remaining Questions
"Where to begin?" is the correct question. Let's start with the offense. Marshall is now the No. 1 wideout, but is he mature enough to handle that spot, and will he have enough supporting weapons for him to succeed in that role? Right now, the answer to both of those questions appears to be no. With the retirement of Lepsis, there are questions at both tackle spots. On the other side of the ball, the defensive line is still in disarray as other than Elvis Dumervil there are no proven playmakers across the front four. The addition of Koutouvides allows Denver to move Williams back to the weak side, but there still will be a void in the middle. The safety position, even though the Broncos added McCree and Manuel to go with the aging John Lynch, is a sore spot.
Denver is solid in very few places. Running back will be solid, regardless who carries the load. Cutler is set at QB, Daniel Graham leads a solid group at tight end and Champ Bailey and Dre Bly give the Broncos a top tandem at CB. But Denver still has a ton of questions. Broncos fans won't want to hear this, but they are closer to losing their grip on second place in the AFC West to Oakland than they are to dethroning the San Diego Chargers for the top dog in this division.




HEY PAT

did you see this..

finally someone sees what most others have and are not afraid to say it..

[turftoad]

Not a very ringing endorsment.

Truth hurts.

[Lonestar]

Not a very ringing endorsment.

Truth hurts.


actually I'm glad to see that someone outside of DEN mentions it.. Perhaps Pat will come to the conclusion that even though mikey is a superb coach, he has screwed the pooch on the rest of his duties..

Someone outside of DEN, someone that does not have to drum up headlines locally, to sell newspapers..

Someone that has not ties to the Super bowl wins.. Remember it is or should be what have you done for me lately.. Not what did you do ten years ago?..

[Den21vsBal19]

[The Broncos now have their third defensive coordinator in three seasons.


Though Denver did not lose a high number of players, the ones who left have not been replaced with upgrades.

The two sentences that leapt out at me, neither of which is good news

[Scarface]

Things aren't rosy that's for sure but things aren't bleak either. I'm sure reports on the Giants this time last year weren't exactly stellar. I'm not saying we're going to win a Super Bowl but we're not headed downhill.

[Watchthemiddle]

I hope it will be clear to us as fans after the draft on what direction the management wants to take this team.

If I see them filling critical needs, then I will be happy. I can settle to re-build if I see them making smart decisions that will pay off down the road.

I know some teams just draft the "best player" available, but I hope we don't do that.

We are seriously lacking depth at just about every position and need to start being smart.

The draft choices made by Shanahan this year will tell me a lot.

[Lonestar]

Things aren't rosy that's for sure but things aren't bleak either. I'm sure reports on the Giants this time last year weren't exactly stellar. I'm not saying we're going to win a Super Bowl but we're not headed downhill.


But the Giants were loaded with talent.. it was the coach EVERYONE HATED..

Not so in DEN everyone thinks mikey walks on water..

[Scarface]

But the Giants were loaded with talent.. it was the coach EVERYONE HATED..

Not so in DEN everyone thinks mikey walks on water..

Okay, I'm giving up hope.

http://www.evotional.com/uploaded_images/pastormarkjump-780281.jpg

[Lonestar]

Okay, I'm giving up hope.

http://www.evotional.com/uploaded_images/pastormarkjump-780281.jpg



Not a BIG enough leap of faith IMO..

[NameUsedBefore]

SUPERBOWL BABY!!!

Oh yeah!!

[omac]

Broncos fans won't want to hear this, but they are closer to losing their grip on second place in the AFC West to Oakland than they are to dethroning the San Diego Chargers for the top dog in this division.

Nope, we're neither closer to losing 2nd place to Oakland than we are to dethroning SD. Oakland has an unproven quantity at QB; he'll be their starter this season, despite very little game time where he hasn't performed all that great when he was on; Oakland still has Rob Ryan, and they continue to have one of the worst run defenses in the league (similar to Denver under Bates); their offensive line is weak, they have some question marks at WR, and their main rusher, Fargas, spent the last part of the season injured. To top it off, Al is undermining Kiffin's authority.

Though beating SD in the rankings seems unlikely, thinking that Oakland will overtake Denver is much more unlikely.


Marshall is now the No. 1 wideout, but is he mature enough to handle that spot, and will he have enough supporting weapons for him to succeed in that role?

Marshall handled being the No. 1 wideout without proper preparation last season, gaining more than 1000 yards and 100 receptions, so no there shouldn't be any problem there.

Weapons? Stokley's proven that he's a very clutch slot guy, and when Scheffler finally started to play after his injury, he was also a very big moment target. Graham has also proven reliable as a pass catcher. Henry was the leading rusher in the NFL through his 1st 4 games before injury; both Young and Hall have practically had 100 yard games, and Young has been used like a receiver too. As long as they can all manage to stay healthy, there are enough weapons.

The only thing that needs serious fixing for this season is the defensive and offensive lines, which Oakland seems to have problems with too. We have much less problems than Oakland.

[Lonestar]

Nope, we're neither closer to losing 2nd place to Oakland than we are to dethroning SD. Oakland has an unproven quantity at QB; he'll be their starter this season, despite very little game time where he hasn't performed all that great when he was on; Oakland still has Rob Ryan, and they continue to have one of the worst run defenses in the league (similar to Denver under Bates); their offensive line is weak, they have some question marks at WR, and their main rusher, Fargas, spent the last part of the season injured. To top it off, Al is undermining Kiffin's authority.

Though beating SD in the rankings seems unlikely, thinking that Oakland will overtake Denver is much more unlikely.



Marshall handled being the No. 1 wideout without proper preparation last season, gaining more than 1000 yards and 100 receptions, so no there shouldn't be any problem there.

Weapons? Stokley's proven that he's a very clutch slot guy, and when Scheffler finally started to play after his injury, he was also a very big moment target. Graham has also proven reliable as a pass catcher. Henry was the leading rusher in the NFL through his 1st 4 games before injury; both Young and Hall have practically had 100 yard games, and Young has been used like a receiver too. As long as they can all manage to stay healthy, there are enough weapons.

The only thing that needs serious fixing for this season is the defensive and offensive lines, which Oakland seems to have problems with too. We have much less problems than Oakland.


But remember you win or lose on the LOS.. So far I have less confidence than I'd like to because of this fact..

[JONtheBRONCO]

Yeah... I think an Oakland fan wrote this. Makes us out to be pretty big losers..

HATER IN THE HOUSE

[tubby]

Broncos win 10 games next year. Minimum. :yo:

[WARHORSE]

Another one sided article by football ignorant Jeremy Green..............thats Denny Greens son btw. Thats enough to explain alot already.

He is who we thought he is.

He highlights the personel in order to meet his opinion. That might work if he were speaking to Sean Salisbury.........or some others. Fine if your discussing on a football forum, not so fine in placing an objective analysis.

He downplays certain players presence and acquisitions, while highlighting the needs and failures of others.

Simple article by a simple person.



Bowlen not only sees these types of articles...........hes smart enough to ignore them.

Mark one up for the good guys.:coffee:

[scott.475]

All these comments about Pat not knowing what is going on crack me up. He "finally sees" what we have seen all along? Like Pat comes to the Bronco forums for advice or something...give me a break. As if he is an owner who checks the status of his team only every couple months from his yacht, like the Broncos are just a bobble he takes out and dusts off every once in a while. When I look around the league at the character and desire to win most owners have, very few match up to Pat.

I have my opinions on what I would like to see happen with the Broncos, but that is all from an outside perspective. None of us have all the insider info, even though we all think we could run the team better. It is one thing to spout off on a forum about what you would like to see, but when the responsibility for the checkbook, the teams future, etc, etc is ACTUALLY yours, I am sure your opinions might change a bit.

Jeremy Green sounds kind of like a moron. I am not at all impressed with writers that can simply rearrange old info in order to create a new article. How about some NEW information, like what the prevailing culture is at Dove Valley? The WHYs behind the activity, not just another report on old transactions.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Another one sided article by football ignorant Jeremy Green..............thats Denny Greens son btw. Thats enough to explain alot already.

He is who we thought he is.

He highlights the personel in order to meet his opinion. That might work if he were speaking to Sean Salisbury.........or some others. Fine if your discussing on a football forum, not so fine in placing an objective analysis.

He downplays certain players presence and acquisitions, while highlighting the needs and failures of others.

Simple article by a simple person.



Bowlen not only sees these types of articles...........hes smart enough to ignore them.

Mark one up for the good guys.:coffee:

What positives is he ignoring?

Our banged up, average RBs?

Our young QB who still tosses the ball places he shouldn't?

Our new OLB from Detroit who Lions' fans even say is awful?

The 2 journeyman sefeties we picked up?


Sorry...I see only truth in this. The only thing he didn't mention that could be positive is the potential of Harris/Kuper...and that's only potential, and the newfound health on the interior OLine.

[BroncoWave]

I thought the article was pretty accurate for the most part. The truth hurts. We were pretty bad last season and our talent level has only decreased since then. I'd be very surprised if this team improved on it's 7-9 mark from last season.

[topscribe]

Broncos win 10 games next year. Minimum. :yo:

Please, everybody here stay out of tall buildings and off high bridges.

Try to live through this next season first and see what happens before you die to regret it.

-----

[Lonestar]

Broncos win 10 games next year. Minimum. :yo:


including 4 preseason games? maybe

[dogfish]

"YOU WANT THE TRUTH?? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!"

[tubby]

including 4 preseason games? maybe

:rolleyes:

Get on board bud. It's going to happen. Probably even get a home playoff game. :nod:

[Lonestar]

:rolleyes:

Get on board bud. It's going to happen. Probably even get a home playoff game. :nod:


2009? 2010 probably if we can get two more solid drafts.. :laugh:

In order to get a home playoff game, it would mean at least beating SAN for the division. Not gonna happen unless at nuke goes off over SAN during a traning camp..

[honz]

:rolleyes:

Get on board bud. It's going to happen. Probably even get a home playoff game. :nod:
Like my Momma always said: "Hope for the best, pray for even better!":elefant:

[tubby]

Like my Momma always said: "Hope for the best, pray for even better!":elefant:

PMA - Positive Mental Attitude

:salute:

[DenBronx]

man guys, this broncos team has just too many holes to fill this year. i highlighted the 3 that i think are the most important to fill right away.

we need: dt, lt, wr, k, p, mlb, fb.

i hope with the signing of mcree and journey man manuel that one of them blossom along side lynch. abdullah is never going to be great in this league. if neither pan out then we will be screwed again at the safety position. the same with niko. im thinking we will look at mlb on the 2nd day of the draft. i think we are more than set at wlb, slb and db positions. id like us to pick up a kicker that can also punt and god only knows about our fb...any ideas?

cutlers blind side needs to get fixed now! i really hope clady is there at 12. if so then that position should be fixed for the next 8-10 years. cutler is constantly getting pressured. i wish he had all the time in the world to throw it like brady and big ben has. as much as i like the idea of getting a stud rb with pick 12 i just think either a stud lt or dt would be the wiser choice. besides i think henry will beast it up with a solid line and true blocking fb.

dt, does anyone know the end result on robertson? are we going to pull off a draft day trade or wait till he gets cut so we dont burn any picks? we need someone solid here and my concern is his knees. id hate to see us use a draft choice on him only for us to cut him later, then id hate to see him hit the open market and get snagged by a rival afc team. if not robertson then who? who is there in round 2 or 4??? how can we get this fixed this offseason and why are we not going guns blazing trying to fix our biggest problem on defense?

losing walker and not replacing him is unacceptable. and no colbert isnt the answer. the pats got moss for what a 4th rounder in last years draft? could we persuade the bengals to trade cj for a 2nd? or 4th and a player? imagine getting clady and cj before we even get to round 4. this makes us a legit contender right away. yeah he will command alot but remember that a few cap hits like gold, walker, elam and smith will all be gone as of 2009.

[slim]

Jeebuz...you guys need to relax. I suggest beer and more beer.

[DenBronx]

Jeebuz...you guys need to relax. I suggest beer and more beer.

we really need a good good draft this year or it's going to be doom and gloom for the 2008-2009 season. im not trying to be negitive but i dont see us going that far...its going to take a good draft and a miracle from God.

[dogfish]

Jeebuz...you guys need to relax. I suggest beer and more beer.

i dunno, slim-- i drink as much beer as anyone, but it still hasn't convinced me that this team is any good. . . . :laugh:

[Stargazer]

But the Giants were loaded with talent.. it was the coach EVERYONE HATED..

Not so in DEN everyone thinks mikey walks on water..

The Giants were loaded with talent? I don't recall ever reading or seeing that before the start of last season. Since the GMEN won the SB, they must've been loaded with talent.

And if it was the coach everyone hated, are you referring to the media, fans, and/or the players on the NY squad? Because it cannot be the players since they went on to win the SB with their coach.

[WARHORSE]

What positives is he ignoring?

Our banged up, average RBs?

Our young QB who still tosses the ball places he shouldn't?

Our new OLB from Detroit who Lions' fans even say is awful?

The 2 journeyman sefeties we picked up?


Sorry...I see only truth in this. The only thing he didn't mention that could be positive is the potential of Harris/Kuper...and that's only potential, and the newfound health on the interior OLine.


Cutler. Throws the ball places he shouldnt? Hes comin off his first full year as a starter and is knockin on the door of everyones top ten QBs in the league.........hes already in mine. You can keep Vince Young. You can keep Leinhurt. You can keep Eli Manning and Rivers. I'll take Cutler, and SHANNY THE GM WENT UP AND GOT HIM. Kiss my butt if someone tries to tell me it was someone elses call to draft Cutler. Two minutes later the same guy is spoutin off at the mouth about how SHANNY THE GM is sending us into the wrong direction.

Brandon Marshall. First year as a full time starter and he busts 100 receptions. Go and count how many guys have done that........use one hand. SHANNY THE GM GOT HIM IN THE FOURTH ROUND. Hes gonna be a TERROR this year.

Tony Scheffler........Young up and coming third wing in what will be a quadruple set of young studs once we draft our franchise RB in this draft. SHANNY THE GM WENT AND GOT HIM IN THE SECOND.

Elvis Dumerville. Leading the team in sacks, full time starter coming into his own, SHANNY THE GM GOT HIM IN THE FOURTH ROUND.

Chris Kuper. Starting guard, T potential this year. Can play all along the offensive line. SHANNY THE GM GOT HIM IN THE FIFTH ROUND. Another young stud who will be here for many years.

All these frisky players in a single draft.

The way Jeremy Green makes it sound, we didnt even draft anyone last year. Im not even gonna waste my time gettin into that. But I will get into this:

People seem to forget that Denver had 17 out of 22 players playing new positions last year that werent starting them the year before.

You gonna tell me another coach who could do what Shanny did with that goin on while facing the same schedule we did last year? Puleeze.

If anyone here truly thinks we're going in the wrong direction, then put your money where your mouth is.

I'll bet ownership of sigs for a month following the end of the regular season next year, that our record is better than this years. If we're going in the wrong direction, then that means we're gettin worse, right?

Lets stop all the bull, and put up your sigs, I'll take any and ALL bets. Sig ownership for a month.


Whos first?:coffee:

[BroncoWave]

Cutler. Throws the ball places he shouldnt? Hes comin off his first full year as a starter and is knockin on the door of everyones top ten QBs in the league.........hes already in mine. You can keep Vince Young. You can keep Leinhurt. You can keep Eli Manning and Rivers. I'll take Cutler, and SHANNY THE GM WENT UP AND GOT HIM. Kiss my butt if someone tries to tell me it was someone elses call to draft Cutler. Two minutes later the same guy is spoutin off at the mouth about how SHANNY THE GM is sending us into the wrong direction.

Brandon Marshall. First year as a full time starter and he busts 100 receptions. Go and count how many guys have done that........use one hand. SHANNY THE GM GOT HIM IN THE FOURTH ROUND. Hes gonna be a TERROR this year.

Tony Scheffler........Young up and coming third wing in what will be a quadruple set of young studs once we draft our franchise RB in this draft. SHANNY THE GM WENT AND GOT HIM IN THE SECOND.

Elvis Dumerville. Leading the team in sacks, full time starter coming into his own, SHANNY THE GM GOT HIM IN THE FOURTH ROUND.

Chris Kuper. Starting guard, T potential this year. Can play all along the offensive line. SHANNY THE GM GOT HIM IN THE FIFTH ROUND. Another young stud who will be here for many years.

All these frisky players in a single draft.

The way Jeremy Green makes it sound, we didnt even draft anyone last year. Im not even gonna waste my time gettin into that. But I will get into this:

People seem to forget that Denver had 17 out of 22 players playing new positions last year that werent starting them the year before.

You gonna tell me another coach who could do what Shanny did with that goin on while facing the same schedule we did last year? Puleeze.

If anyone here truly thinks we're going in the wrong direction, then put your money where your mouth is.

I'll bet ownership of sigs for a month following the end of the regular season next year, that our record is better than this years. If we're going in the wrong direction, then that means we're gettin worse, right?

Lets stop all the bull, and put up your sigs, I'll take any and ALL bets. Sig ownership for a month.


Whos first?:coffee:

Yeah, but the problem we have is that for every bright spot we have, we have 2 holes. I mean seriously, we went 7-9 last season and the best acquisition we have made is Boss friggin Bailey. Unless we have the draft of the century and everyone we draft becomes an instant contributor, I don't see how this team is going to improve any.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I would love to do that bet, but I can't root against my team just to prove a point that doesn't need proven. But I like what ya did. Either get folks to root against their team or they have no point. Brilliant psychology...unless ya get called on it.

Other than Kuper, your list of studs is the same as what the writer listed.

You reference 17 of 22 new starters last year. WELL...how many new ones will we have this year? 1 or 2 at Safety. 2 at LB. Hopefully 2 at DT. 2 at OT. 1 at WR. That is 8 or 9...I know it's not 17, but it's hardly promising...oh, and Kicker makes 9 or 10.

I'm no pessimist, but I'm also not gonna be super homer guy. I am a realist. I want the team to do well. I just don't see it right now. maybe if we have a solid draft (or at least 1 that seems that way) I'll see the light, but you fail to realize we aren't in a vaccuum. As we stagnate, teams like Buffalo, Cleveland, Houston and maybe even the Jets are passing us up. The 4 division winners will be NE, Indy/Jax, Clev/Pitt and SD. That leaves 2 wild card slots available for us, Jax/Indy, Pitt/Clev, Tenn, Hou, Buf. Sorry, I don't see us winning out right now against that list.

[Fan in Exile]

The problem with this article is that he counts all the unknowns as negatives. That is good writing, nor is it good thinking.

So Kootie was a backup in Seattle that doesn't mean he can't be a good starter for us. Just because the idiot author hasn't heard of him doesn't mean he won't be a good.

As far as his question about who's replacing Gold we all know it's going to be DJ so why would have brought anyone in that would be incredibly dumb.

He's also already counting out Thomas and Crowder if they come along like they were doing last year then we could have a pretty solid defensive line with a chance to be good in a few years. If we can get Robertson we could be great this year even.

I mean it's not like the off-season is over, and he certainly doesn't know what their draft plans are so he can't make this kind of judgment call yet.

Next lets consider the O-line. Is it where I would want it to be, of course not. But most that doesn't mean jack. I have no idea, and neither does anyone on this board, how good Harris will be or even how good Kuper could be at tackle. At this point Harris, Hamilton, Nalen, Holland, Kuper, could be a great line for us next year or it could implode. If they don't get anyone in the draft then we should bitch about it but until then we just have to say we don't know.

I actually think that getting a sixth for Meyers wasn't that bad. We could not run up the middle last year. We sucked at it, and it pissed me off. I hope we get a good center in the draft to back up Hamilton and Nalen.

Really for our offensive weapons we only at this point need a #2 WR. That's not the hardest thing in the world to find.

I'm not saying that we're getting 10 wins next year but I am saying that all those predicting doom and gloom are just spouting ignorance because we don't know how a lot of the guys on the team are going to do, or who they will get in the draft.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I'm not saying that we're getting 10 wins next year but I am saying that all those predicting doom and gloom are just spouting ignorance because we don't know how a lot of the guys on the team are going to do, or who they will get in the draft.

But if we are counting on rookies to make us good, we're in pretty bad shape.

Also, what is you definition of doom and gloom? Reality or anything short of a SB championship? I say there are way too many teams ahead of us talentwise right now as far as the playoffs go. Is it doom and gloom to say we finish 8-8 or 9-7 and miss out on the playoffs? Cleveland had a GREAT year last year and didn't get in. I choose to not hold on to false hope. When I see improvement, I'll see the light, but as of right now all I see is a stud QB who is tossing to the next TO...in talent and personality.

[Fan in Exile]

But if we are counting on rookies to make us good, we're in pretty bad shape.

Also, what is you definition of doom and gloom? Reality or anything short of a SB championship? I say there are way too many teams ahead of us talentwise right now as far as the playoffs go. Is it doom and gloom to say we finish 8-8 or 9-7 and miss out on the playoffs? Cleveland had a GREAT year last year and didn't get in. I choose to not hold on to false hope. When I see improvement, I'll see the light, but as of right now all I see is a stud QB who is tossing to the next TO...in talent and personality.

For the most part except for the Elite teams everyone hopes that a rookie can come in to help. I don't think we are elite yet but I would say unproven as opposed to rough shape.

My definition of doom and gloom would be thinking the Raiders are going to catch us.

When talking about reality it's important to note that it's negative people who don't have a grasp on reality. This is important from a counseling perspective (mine) but it's also important to note on the board here. Pessimistic people as research has shown don't pay attention to the positive information whereas positive people weigh both the positive and the negative.

So realistically I think it's way too early to start figuring out how we will do this season.

[SmilinAssasSin27]

I call BS> There are plenty of dudes on these boards who wear orange and blue colored optimistic glasses and I would be very careful before I call them all well informed.

Actually, I too am a counselor and Being overly optimistic is a Thinking Error. Yes, an error in thinking/judgement.

[Mike]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3332366

This is a team and a franchise going in the wrong direction. The Broncos now have their third defensive coordinator in three seasons, and GM Ted Sundquist, who seldom was used in personnel decisions despite his expertise in that area, was fired. Head coach Mike Shanahan is a darn good football coach, but his track record in personnel decisions has not been very good. With him calling the shots, they continue to make mistakes in free agency and there is not a lot of great, young talent on this team. Denver does have a potential future star in QB Jay Cutler, and he may be able to mask a lot of the other offensive and defensive issues. But make no mistake, personnel issues still exist, and they won't go away until Denver hires a GM and gives him the authority to oversee the personnel decisions.


Key Additions
Give the Broncos credit for not sitting on their hands this offseason, but their additions do not outweigh their losses. Denver did not add one proven young player or a veteran who is not clearly on the downside of his career. Former Carolina WR Keary Colbert has been a bust since his rookie season, when he caught 47 balls; he has caught only 62 in the three years since. S Marlon McCree is limited, and nobody should know this better than Denver, which tried to attack him twice every season when he was in San Diego. C Casey Wiegmann, signed from Kansas City, is set to begin his 13th NFL season, but he struggled last season. How much he has left in the tank remains to be seen. S Marquand Manuel parlayed one good season in Seattle into a free-agent deal with Green Bay. Denver is now his third team in four years and fourth in his six-year career. MLB Niko Koutouvides was a backup in Seattle. He was signed in an effort to get get D.J. Williams back to WLB, where he is a better fit, but it seems like Koutouvides is a reach there.

Boss Bailey is the best free agent Denver added, but he has not played up to expectations. Even when you look at the players Denver kept, you have to scratch your head. They re-signed DEs Ebenezer Ekuban, who is 31 and coming off a torn Achilles tendon, and John Engelberger, who had 41 tackles and a sack as a backup. Engelberger is a good worker, but this team needs some players on a shaky front four. It's hard to say Denver added one guy you could call a true quality starter out of these additions. Key Losses
Denver did not lose many players, but the few losses will be felt. LOT Matt Lepsis, the last remaining piece of what seemed like a pretty dominant offensive line only a few years ago, has retired. His loss means the Broncos now have questions at left offensive tackle and right offensive tackle. The team cut OLB Ian Gold, whose production dropped off last season. It's understandable why they let him go, but who takes over for him? The team parted ways with WR Javon Walker (Raiders). Yes, he was injured for much of last season, but his departure leaves the team with currently injured Brandon Marshall as the only legitimate threat outside. The team traded C Chris Myers to Houston for a sixth-round pick, even though a young Myers is a better starter than an aging Wiegmann.

The biggest loss will be PK Jason Elam (Falcons), who has been Mr. Clutch. Denver, for the first time in more than a decade, now will learn what it feels like to hold your breath every time the kicking team walks out onto the field. S Nick Ferguson (Texans) was not retained as a free agent, but Denver doesn't lose much there because it signed McCree. Though Denver did not lose a high number of players, the ones who left have not been replaced with upgrades.

Remaining Questions
"Where to begin?" is the correct question. Let's start with the offense. Marshall is now the No. 1 wideout, but is he mature enough to handle that spot, and will he have enough supporting weapons for him to succeed in that role? Right now, the answer to both of those questions appears to be no. With the retirement of Lepsis, there are questions at both tackle spots. On the other side of the ball, the defensive line is still in disarray as other than Elvis Dumervil there are no proven playmakers across the front four. The addition of Koutouvides allows Denver to move Williams back to the weak side, but there still will be a void in the middle. The safety position, even though the Broncos added McCree and Manuel to go with the aging John Lynch, is a sore spot.
Denver is solid in very few places. Running back will be solid, regardless who carries the load. Cutler is set at QB, Daniel Graham leads a solid group at tight end and Champ Bailey and Dre Bly give the Broncos a top tandem at CB. But Denver still has a ton of questions. Broncos fans won't want to hear this, but they are closer to losing their grip on second place in the AFC West to Oakland than they are to dethroning the San Diego Chargers for the top dog in this division.

Sounds like someone is just mad that the Broncos fired his boyfriend. :noidea:

[r8rh8r]

That ESPN article is garbage. We aren't desperate for depth at offensive tackle. Colbert is a gifted athlete that came at a rock bottom price (just like McCaffrey). Nobody think Niko is going to blossom into a pro bowler but he's a great stop gap for a year or two. Elam wanted $4.4 million and a guaranteed 2nd year at 38 years old. Etc.

If they rolled up their sleeves and did some hard analysis, they'd find out that aside from a horrible situation on the interior of the defensive line, we're not in bad shape. The whole purpose of a 'youth movement' is to rebuild through the draft. When we spent millions on busts like Sam Adams, Simeon Rice, and Javon Walker, everybody loved what the Broncos were doing. Now that they've stopped being reckless, all the Shana-haters are having a party.

News flash: 7-9 is not a terrible season. Maybe by our standards its terrible, but that's only because we're an excellent organization. With a strong draft, we can return to excellence in 2008. With an average draft, we are still putting pieces in place to have a great team in the next 3 years.

I don't hear anyone talking about Rod Marinelli or Marv Lewis on the hot seat. Why? Because their fans and the media is accustomed to them sucking year in and year out. 2007 was a bitter pill to swallow. Get over it Bronco Nation. Its gonna take some time to get back on top but we don't have the longest tenured head coach in the NFL because he doesn't get the job done. Patience.

[MHCBill]

We will be better this year. Outside of Cutler getting hurt we will win more games this year than last year. Does that mean we are where we want to be? No, but we are going in the right direction.

Smartest thing we did this off-season was realizing the philosophy of throwing money around foolishly won't produce wins. We made some frugal decisions during a season when adding one major free agent (overpay) wasn't going to matter anyway. We are not winning the Super Bowl this year.

Start making plans for 2009 and beyond.

[DenBronx]

That ESPN article is garbage. We aren't desperate for depth at offensive tackle. Colbert is a gifted athlete that came at a rock bottom price (just like McCaffrey). Nobody think Niko is going to blossom into a pro bowler but he's a great stop gap for a year or two. Elam wanted $4.4 million and a guaranteed 2nd year at 38 years old. Etc.

If they rolled up their sleeves and did some hard analysis, they'd find out that aside from a horrible situation on the interior of the defensive line, we're not in bad shape. The whole purpose of a 'youth movement' is to rebuild through the draft. When we spent millions on busts like Sam Adams, Simeon Rice, and Javon Walker, everybody loved what the Broncos were doing. Now that they've stopped being reckless, all the Shana-haters are having a party.

News flash: 7-9 is not a terrible season. Maybe by our standards its terrible, but that's only because we're an excellent organization. With a strong draft, we can return to excellence in 2008. With an average draft, we are still putting pieces in place to have a great team in the next 3 years.

I don't hear anyone talking about Rod Marinelli or Marv Lewis on the hot seat. Why? Because their fans and the media is accustomed to them sucking year in and year out. 2007 was a bitter pill to swallow. Get over it Bronco Nation. Its gonna take some time to get back on top but we don't have the longest tenured head coach in the NFL because he doesn't get the job done. Patience.


fair enough.

[turftoad]

That ESPN article is garbage. We aren't desperate for depth at offensive tackle. Colbert is a gifted athlete that came at a rock bottom price (just like McCaffrey). Nobody think Niko is going to blossom into a pro bowler but he's a great stop gap for a year or two. Elam wanted $4.4 million and a guaranteed 2nd year at 38 years old. Etc.

If they rolled up their sleeves and did some hard analysis, they'd find out that aside from a horrible situation on the interior of the defensive line, we're not in bad shape. The whole purpose of a 'youth movement' is to rebuild through the draft. When we spent millions on busts like Sam Adams, Simeon Rice, and Javon Walker, everybody loved what the Broncos were doing. Now that they've stopped being reckless, all the Shana-haters are having a party.

News flash: 7-9 is not a terrible season. Maybe by our standards its terrible, but that's only because we're an excellent organization. With a strong draft, we can return to excellence in 2008. With an average draft, we are still putting pieces in place to have a great team in the next 3 years.

I don't hear anyone talking about Rod Marinelli or Marv Lewis on the hot seat. Why? Because their fans and the media is accustomed to them sucking year in and year out. 2007 was a bitter pill to swallow. Get over it Bronco Nation. Its gonna take some time to get back on top but we don't have the longest tenured head coach in the NFL because he doesn't get the job done. Patience.

I have to agree with this.

We do have a very young team. We do need to solidify some positions where we are not young.

Even with a good draft this year, it will not come into play for a year or two.

That said, I think we are in for another mediocre year in 2008.

2009 should be our year to get back to respectability.

[Lonestar]

The Giants were loaded with talent? I don't recall ever reading or seeing that before the start of last season. Since the GMEN won the SB, they must've been loaded with talent.

And if it was the coach everyone hated, are you referring to the media, fans, and/or the players on the NY squad? Because it cannot be the players since they went on to win the SB with their coach.

Fans and media hated him and most of the players had no love for him either..

they have a great DLine and OLINE.. the team came around after a loss or two early in the year.. Someone said they finally bought into his scheme after those loses..

I'm not a manning fan at all. But buress certainly carried this offense, most of the way on a severely sprained ankle almost all year.. He rarely if ever practiced it was so bad..

the coach was rumored to being one game away from being fired.. before they started winning..

Hey I do not like this team at all only slightly better than the cowgirls and only the raiders rank lower than DAL..

This coach pulled a rabbit out of the hat this year.. unlike mikey..

[jhns]

I skimmed through the responses and didn't see anyone say anything about this. The writer completely leaves out Nalen in a few spots in this article.

I don't agree with much of anything he says. I do agree that we will feel the departure of Lepsis, who has missed a lot time over the past 2 years anyways, and Elam.

Marshall played #1 almost all of last year. To say he isn't able to handle it at this point is just funny. I saw a lot of catches and yards that say otherwise, and those where while playing #1.

This guy doesn't have many facts straight and yet some people are still taking his opinion seriously? The fact that he doesn't know who Nalen is and that he doesn't know Marshall played #1 should prove to you guys that he hasn't watched the Broncos in years. I guess any "glass half empty" fan loves this type of writer though.

[BroncoJoe]

Elam has certainly spoiled us, but losing him doesn't mean we're going to slip to a 5-11, or 4-12 season.

[dogfish]

For the most part except for the Elite teams everyone hopes that a rookie can come in to help. I don't think we are elite yet but I would say unproven as opposed to rough shape.

My definition of doom and gloom would be thinking the Raiders are going to catch us.

When talking about reality it's important to note that it's negative people who don't have a grasp on reality. This is important from a counseling perspective (mine) but it's also important to note on the board here. Pessimistic people as research has shown don't pay attention to the positive information whereas positive people weigh both the positive and the negative.

So realistically I think it's way too early to start figuring out how we will do this season.


how convenient. . . anyone who doesn't see it your way doesn't have a grasp on reality. . . .


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:



because we all know it's impossible to make an objective assesment of our situation that doesn't reflect well on the team. . . anyone who doesn't see a reason to believe that a bunch of total unknows will give us a good chance of outplaying san diego and all their proven talent is just being a damn negative nelly-- they've probably all got a chemical imbalance or something. . . .


i'm with smilin', i call BS. . . .

[haroldthebarrel]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3332366

This is a team and a franchise going in the wrong direction. The Broncos now have their third defensive coordinator in three seasons, and GM Ted Sundquist, who seldom was used in personnel decisions despite his expertise in that area, was fired. Head coach Mike Shanahan is a darn good football coach, but his track record in personnel decisions has not been very good. With him calling the shots, they continue to make mistakes in free agency and there is not a lot of great, young talent on this team. Denver does have a potential future star in QB Jay Cutler, and he may be able to mask a lot of the other offensive and defensive issues. But make no mistake, personnel issues still exist, and they won't go away until Denver hires a GM and gives him the authority to oversee the personnel decisions.


Key Additions
Give the Broncos credit for not sitting on their hands this offseason, but their additions do not outweigh their losses. Denver did not add one proven young player or a veteran who is not clearly on the downside of his career. Former Carolina WR Keary Colbert has been a bust since his rookie season, when he caught 47 balls; he has caught only 62 in the three years since. S Marlon McCree is limited, and nobody should know this better than Denver, which tried to attack him twice every season when he was in San Diego. C Casey Wiegmann, signed from Kansas City, is set to begin his 13th NFL season, but he struggled last season. How much he has left in the tank remains to be seen. S Marquand Manuel parlayed one good season in Seattle into a free-agent deal with Green Bay. Denver is now his third team in four years and fourth in his six-year career. MLB Niko Koutouvides was a backup in Seattle. He was signed in an effort to get get D.J. Williams back to WLB, where he is a better fit, but it seems like Koutouvides is a reach there.

Boss Bailey is the best free agent Denver added, but he has not played up to expectations. Even when you look at the players Denver kept, you have to scratch your head. They re-signed DEs Ebenezer Ekuban, who is 31 and coming off a torn Achilles tendon, and John Engelberger, who had 41 tackles and a sack as a backup. Engelberger is a good worker, but this team needs some players on a shaky front four. It's hard to say Denver added one guy you could call a true quality starter out of these additions. Key Losses
Denver did not lose many players, but the few losses will be felt. LOT Matt Lepsis, the last remaining piece of what seemed like a pretty dominant offensive line only a few years ago, has retired. His loss means the Broncos now have questions at left offensive tackle and right offensive tackle. The team cut OLB Ian Gold, whose production dropped off last season. It's understandable why they let him go, but who takes over for him? The team parted ways with WR Javon Walker (Raiders). Yes, he was injured for much of last season, but his departure leaves the team with currently injured Brandon Marshall as the only legitimate threat outside. The team traded C Chris Myers to Houston for a sixth-round pick, even though a young Myers is a better starter than an aging Wiegmann.

The biggest loss will be PK Jason Elam (Falcons), who has been Mr. Clutch. Denver, for the first time in more than a decade, now will learn what it feels like to hold your breath every time the kicking team walks out onto the field. S Nick Ferguson (Texans) was not retained as a free agent, but Denver doesn't lose much there because it signed McCree. Though Denver did not lose a high number of players, the ones who left have not been replaced with upgrades.

Remaining Questions
"Where to begin?" is the correct question. Let's start with the offense. Marshall is now the No. 1 wideout, but is he mature enough to handle that spot, and will he have enough supporting weapons for him to succeed in that role? Right now, the answer to both of those questions appears to be no. With the retirement of Lepsis, there are questions at both tackle spots. On the other side of the ball, the defensive line is still in disarray as other than Elvis Dumervil there are no proven playmakers across the front four. The addition of Koutouvides allows Denver to move Williams back to the weak side, but there still will be a void in the middle. The safety position, even though the Broncos added McCree and Manuel to go with the aging John Lynch, is a sore spot.
Denver is solid in very few places. Running back will be solid, regardless who carries the load. Cutler is set at QB, Daniel Graham leads a solid group at tight end and Champ Bailey and Dre Bly give the Broncos a top tandem at CB. But Denver still has a ton of questions. Broncos fans won't want to hear this, but they are closer to losing their grip on second place in the AFC West to Oakland than they are to dethroning the San Diego Chargers for the top dog in this division.

This article is filled with holes it is amusing.

First off, are we going the wrong way?
Well we have been getting a lot younger. Many of these players should improve as natural flow with more experience. We are a 7-9 team with the potential to improve. The only issue that could make us a worse team is if we loose Cutler for an extended period.

I do agree with the one thing, and that is the Denver needs a great GM who has the final word on aquisitions. Shanahan has over the years proven he is bound to let friends and coaches have the final say on a player.
Sundquist wasnt the one, but what do you expect from swedes besides they are arrogant wannabes?

The team underachieved last year. Put the run defense in the middle of the pack and this is suddenly a team that wins two more games.
Losing Gold is good. He sucked the last two years.
Even if Bailey hasnt played near his potential he strengthens the lb core as it gives us three players who play their NATURAL positions.
The defensive end position isnt all that bad. Compared to other teams we are easily in the middle of the pack even without considering that both crowder and moss should improve a little in their second year.

The team got rattled with injuries. Why doesnt every stupid reporter add that to the equation when they look upon the new season?

Loosing Walker meant that we dont have arguably the best set of receivers in the league. That is a loss that hurts, however relative to last season it is still standing pat.
Loosing Lepsis hurts but not as much as one should think. Particularly knowing that we might select a tackle in the draft, who could just equal Lepsis performance last year. He didnt play well, so we arent comparing him to the Lepsis of four years ago.
Loosing Elam was in my opinion stupid. It creates an unnecessary hole even if it might be wise financially. That is if and only if we dont have much cap room to spare as it appears we will.


And btw. Even if Oakland has improved doesnt mean we have regressed.
If Oakland improves to 8-8 and we also end up at 8-8 that means they improved and we stood pat. In fact by most objective standards we did improve but they improved more. That doesnt mean we went the wrong direction. It means we didnt improve. If we had went the wrong direction we would have taken a step back.
And tell me, what teams besides the Patriots are near the overall talent on the roster that the Chargers has? In my opinion all are pretty far behind and to equal or surpass that isnt something you can do in one season.
You can of course scheme up against it, but even if most teams hit perfectly with all their picks, they would still be behind the Chargers overall talentwise in my honest opinion.

Oh, interesting conjecture but most teams who experience a tragic loss either plays better the first season or the next. It has happened a lot of times, and I wouldnt be surprised if it happens to us as players lets up and just plays.

[BOSSHOGG30]

Has anyone seen a list of players or heard of any of the 30 players the team can bring in for pre-draft visits? Broncos sure are hush-hush about anything draft related.

[haroldthebarrel]

Has anyone seen a list of players or heard of any of the 30 players the team can bring in for pre-draft visits? Broncos sure are hush-hush about anything draft related.

They never do care much about interviews. Most of the interviews we have from players we drafted are through the teams we share the interviews with. New Orleans used to be one.
Mediator on the mane doesnt like that, because it doesnt give you an idea how mentally tough they are. The Pats on the other hand give extensive interviews and almost always draft leaders and seniors.
I tend to agree with him on this point.

[Lonestar]

We will be better this year. Outside of Cutler getting hurt we will win more games this year than last year. Does that mean we are where we want to be? No, but we are going in the right direction.

Smartest thing we did this off-season was realizing the philosophy of throwing money around foolishly won't produce wins. We made some frugal decisions during a season when adding one major free agent (overpay) wasn't going to matter anyway. We are not winning the Super Bowl this year.

Start making plans for 2009 and beyond.


Do you think it was mikey that saw this divining moment or Pat?

[MHCBill]

I don't know anymore than you do, but either way it's the right thing to do.

[haroldthebarrel]

I dont think we are that far away as others. We might not be true contenders but we could easily win 10 to 11 games next season.

There are only two huge questionmarks at offensive and defensive tackles on this team and both could be filled to an extent where we might be pretty much improved over last year during the draft.
That and if Cutler matures at the level he has already a lot will be done just there.

Most people here and pundits thought we were a playoff team before last season. Injuries and the lack of run defense put a stop to that, but that doesnt mean we know are a team filled with holes.
Think of it. Cutler, Scheffler, DJ, Moss, Crowder, Moss, Thomas and Kuper are all players who one would expect at least a marginal improvement. That is counting out Marshall.
We get two pretty good starters on the offensive line back in Hamilton and Nalen.
We have yet to see what the draft yields but it should at the very least be at least a marginal improvements in certain areas.

It is not as bleak as some people think, on the other hand it isnt a superbowl contending roster as well. But we are a team that should improve from a seven win season and isnt that going in the right direction?

[Lonestar]

I dont think we are that far away as others. We might not be true contenders but we could easily win 10 to 11 games next season.

There are only two huge questionmarks at offensive and defensive tackles on this team and both could be filled to an extent where we might be pretty much improved over last year during the draft.
That and if Cutler matures at the level he has already a lot will be done just there.

Most people here and pundits thought we were a playoff team before last season. Injuries and the lack of run defense put a stop to that, but that doesnt mean we know are a team filled with holes.
Think of it. Cutler, Scheffler, DJ, Moss, Crowder, Moss, Thomas and Kuper are all players who one would expect at least a marginal improvement. That is counting out Marshall.
We get two pretty good starters on the offensive line back in Hamilton and Nalen.
We have yet to see what the draft yields but it should at the very least be at least a marginal improvements in certain areas.

It is not as bleak as some people think, on the other hand it isnt a superbowl contending roster as well. But we are a team that should improve from a seven win season and isnt that going in the right direction?



Last year I thought after the draft and before we started playing Preseason game I was real optimistic.. Believed the BS Mikey had pumped out.


Pre regular season I was thinking 8-8. After seeing what we really had in those games scared me..


I'll say for now I'm not optimistic about winning ten or more.

Unless there is a dramatic turnaround on D this is s 8-8 or less team.

Even with all of the potential firepower on O they will have to score 25+ points game and keep the TOP in the mid 30's to stop the bleeding the DL is gonna cause.

But maybe they will fall into place and become a normal Bates defense. Perhaps with all the diddling around the consistency is not there I pray that is the reason for the other teams really poor offenses to almost move at will against them.

Those 3.5 sacks (Dumervil .5) rookies are gonna have to grow up fast.

But with a DRAFT choice or two on the DL next year this team should be HOT.



A couple of games into the I revised it to anywhere from 3-13 to 7-9.. depending on how lucky we got..

I want to wait till I see the draft and Jun1 cuts and acquisitions by those we play this year before putting up guesstimates on W-L's this year..

HOWEVER right now, I have little reason to believe we will get a third in a row great draft..

[Timmy!]

*yawn*

So the Broncos are going to have their worst season in history, Shanny will get fired, and Jrwiz & Zam will hardly be able to contain themselves. We might need some scotchguard to protect the furniture :D Might as well fast forward to 2009......

10-6. Maybe I could drive somebody insanse and put some quotes in my sig this year, Zam sure blew a gasket over it :heh:

[haroldthebarrel]

*yawn*

So the Broncos are going to have their worst season in history, Shanny will get fired, and Jrwiz & Zam will hardly be able to contain themselves. We might need some scotchguard to protect the furniture :D Might as well fast forward to 2009......

10-6. Maybe I could drive somebody insanse and put some quotes in my sig this year, Zam sure blew a gasket over it :heh:

Where is zam now?

[LRtagger]

I think the guy is right...we should keep picking up high-priced free agents to fill holes like Oakland. It seems to have been working for us and for them in the last few years. I mean just look at all the talented guys the Raiders have brought in this year. They might make a push at SD for the division.

We can get rid of these unknown young draftees who have not proven themselves. Only dumbasses build through the draft. The Raiders really know how to build a good team.

Cutler....we can drop him. Trent Dilfer is available and has won a Super Bowl! We would be stupid NOT to sign him to a 5 year $32mil contract.

Why pick up a young Colbert when we could have had a proven 16 year vet like Keenan McCardell. Surely we could have built our offense around his experience instead of relying on these young and unproven guys like Brandon Marshall...who's he?

Instead of a young Niko and Boss we could have picked up Seau and Izzo. I mean those guys have really got some experience under their belts. Plus they played for the almighty Patriots and you have to be a pro-bowler to even be on their practice squad!

ESPNewengland is a joke. If you think this guy is bad...go read some of Gene Wojciechowski's articles. He is a blatant ESPN Bronco basher and they call him the "Nation's Voice"

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=3073788&sportCat=nfl

^^ He wrote that the day after the Broncos beat the Steelers (his favorite team) last season in a great game. It is worth a look for a good laugh.

[underrated29]

wow that guy is weak.

the best player on your team is a kicker. WTF. so he is saying that champ, dre,jay,brandon, lynch, dj all must take a backseat to our kicker, because he did exactly what we paid him to do. Kick field goals.

That guy is a moron. Wow....

[haroldthebarrel]

Last year I thought after the draft and before we started playing Preseason game I was real optimistic.. Believed the BS Mikey had pumped out.


Pre regular season I was thinking 8-8. After seeing what we really had in those games scared me..





A couple of games into the I revised it to anywhere from 3-13 to 7-9.. depending on how lucky we got..

I want to wait till I see the draft and Jun1 cuts and acquisitions by those we play this year before putting up guesstimates on W-L's this year..

HOWEVER right now, I have little reason to believe we will get a third in a row great draft..

It wasnt all BS that he spewed though. None would have said that a respected coach as Bates would give us instantly one of the worst defenses ever.
Then you had all the injuries. And injuries plays a huge part.

But I agree with you about the acquisitions have been bad. That is perhaps why they stood so still this year.
The other really sad thing is that I and several other former freaks has been better at picking talent in the first two rounds since 2k2 when I started following the draft again..... man it is really sad to think about that how a pathetic light that really puts our scouts and front office in.

But you wanna know what is really sad?
In the 2k1 draft we were thinking of either Middlebrooks and K. Jenkins.
In the 2k4 draft we had Tommie Harris in our fab five.
So it isnt like we cannot spot talent, but more of a lack of commitment to get the players in the trenches.

Unless Shanahan really takes a different approach and get more talent in the trenches I dont think he will win his third superbowl.
The superbowl teams almost always are at least dominant in either the defensive line or the offensive line, and average to better on the other.
We have at least what could be an average to above average offensive line with some luck this year. It would be interesting to see if Shanahan and co really learns. I know one thing though, and that is Sundquist really proclaimed himself as a great talent to evaluate talent in the trenches but the results were zilch. Time will tell i suppose.

[Fan in Exile]

I call BS> There are plenty of dudes on these boards who wear orange and blue colored optimistic glasses and I would be very careful before I call them all well informed.

Actually, I too am a counselor and Being overly optimistic is a Thinking Error. Yes, an error in thinking/judgement.


Dr. Segerstrom at the University of Kentucky has done a lot of research on this you should probably look it up before you call BS.

Sure being overly optimistic is a thinking error however you've missed the point I wasn't talking about people on the extremes I was talking about people in the normal course of their life, and how they value incoming information.

Certainly there are people who take optimism to an extreme but don't be so quick to judge an optimistic person as being unrealistic, chances are they are taking into account the whole picture. Whereas the pessimistic person is most likely undervaluing the positive information.

[Lonestar]

It wasnt all BS that he spewed though. None would have said that a respected coach as Bates would give us instantly one of the worst defenses ever.
Then you had all the injuries. And injuries plays a huge part.

But I agree with you about the acquisitions have been bad. That is perhaps why they stood so still this year.
The other really sad thing is that I and several other former freaks has been better at picking talent in the first two rounds since 2k2 when I started following the draft again..... man it is really sad to think about that how a pathetic light that really puts our scouts and front office in.

But you wanna know what is really sad?
In the 2k1 draft we were thinking of either Middlebrooks and K. Jenkins.
In the 2k4 draft we had Tommie Harris in our fab five.
So it isnt like we cannot spot talent, but more of a lack of commitment to get the players in the trenches.

Unless Shanahan really takes a different approach and get more talent in the trenches I dont think he will win his third superbowl.
The superbowl teams almost always are at least dominant in either the defensive line or the offensive line, and average to better on the other.
We have at least what could be an average to above average offensive line with some luck this year. It would be interesting to see if Shanahan and co really learns. I know one thing though, and that is Sundquist really proclaimed himself as a great talent to evaluate talent in the trenches but the results were zilch. Time will tell i suppose.

I think we can all say anything Ted S might have been was negated by mikey and his total lack of commitment to drafting day on LOS players..

He believed himself to be above th fray on the OLINE taking castoffs and unwanted and doing something real good with them..

Was pretty good at that however since HOF ZIM and company have left our Redzone running TD's has spiraled down to almost non existent..

His last decent DL day one guys and pretty much ONLY DLINE draftee was price.. For the most part he has lived with DLINES from castoffs and almost retirees..

mikey has never really been successful day in the draft except @LB and then the past two years..

BY successful getting starting talent that was not just a starter because we had no on else to put there.. MEANING being an IMPACT player for more than a year at a time..

Not counting 2006, who has mikey really Drafted on day one that has been an impact player outside of price (when motivated by a kicking the ass) or 4 LB's Wilson, DJ, Mobley and gold till he was hurt?

I do not understand who or why this team has faired so poorly in the draft over the years.. I further do not understnad why Pat has allowed it to happen..

[haroldthebarrel]

I think we can all say anything Ted S might have been was negated by mikey and his total lack of commitment to drafting day on LOS players..

He believed himself to be above th fray on the OLINE taking castoffs and unwanted and doing something real good with them..

Was pretty good at that however since HOF ZIM and company have left our Redzone running TD's has spiraled down to almost non existent..

His last decent DL day one guys and pretty much ONLY DLINE draftee was price.. For the most part he has lived with DLINES from castoffs and almost retirees..

mikey has never really been successful day in the draft except @LB and then the past two years..

BY successful getting starting talent that was not just a starter because we had no on else to put there.. MEANING being an IMPACT player for more than a year at a time..

Not counting 2006, who has mikey really Drafted on day one that has been an impact player outside of price (when motivated by a kicking the ass) or 4 LB's Wilson, DJ, Mobley and gold till he was hurt?

I do not understand who or why this team has faired so poorly in the draft over the years.. I further do not understnad why Pat has allowed it to happen..


Pr Wabbit at the orangemane, who is a beat writer, all the FA and draft classes had Sundquist playing a major role. He had a lot to do with the Browncos thing. He took pride on spotting trench talent, yet the outcome was horrible. He also got defensive taking about draft picks and busts last year which is strange considering some people her consider him just a scapegoat who didnt do much but what Shanahan told him.

Now, I agree that Shanahan hasnt been commited enough to the DL, but still it isnt his fault alone for the lack of draft choices. He did spend a lot of money on FAs who particularly Gardner was a huge flop but people forget he was the defensive mvp of a very good redskins defense.

The other thing about Shanahan is that he drafted relatively speaking excellent during the time he became a coach till 2000. Lots of few and low choices yet great output.

I think one reason thayve drafted so poorly in this millinium is that they have been playoff contenders so often and thus opted out to go with a role player who can relatively fix a need. Other than that I have no idea, and Shanahan who ultimately is the one responsible, he should take a seat back and let people more talented in scouting do that selections.
Sundquist wasnt the man, I hope we will get one because this cant continue.

[Lonestar]

Pr Wabbit at the orangemane, who is a beat writer, all the FA and draft classes had Sundquist playing a major role. He had a lot to do with the Browncos thing. He took pride on spotting trench talent, yet the outcome was horrible. He also got defensive taking about draft picks and busts last year which is strange considering some people her consider him just a scapegoat who didnt do much but what Shanahan told him.

Now, I agree that Shanahan hasnt been commited enough to the DL, but still it isnt his fault alone for the lack of draft choices. He did spend a lot of money on FAs who particularly Gardner was a huge flop but people forget he was the defensive mvp of a very good redskins defense.

The other thing about Shanahan is that he drafted relatively speaking excellent during the time he became a coach till 2000. Lots of few and low choices yet great output.

I think one reason thayve drafted so poorly in this millinium is that they have been playoff contenders so often and thus opted out to go with a role player who can relatively fix a need. Other than that I have no idea, and Shanahan who ultimately is the one responsible, he should take a seat back and let people more talented in scouting do that selections.
Sundquist wasnt the man, I hope we will get one because this cant continue.

While Ted may have been good at ferreting out talent I think because mikey had the final say it was not translate to our picks..

We have all heard the stories about mikey lusting after players and desperately reaching for them.. worried they would not be there when they were projected to go..

I do not know who did what for sure just know that our drafting since 1999 or so has sucked for IMPACT players..

We have made do with OLINE guys and have done real well with LB's but beyond that most DAFTEES did not make it much past their second Training camp..Certantly not their third one.. a few #1's that soon left under less than their #1 status.. I think the only reason foster, delta, and ashley lasted as long as they did was stinging pride on mikeys part hoping they would become the studs there were supposed to be..

[haroldthebarrel]

While Ted may have been good at ferreting out talent I think because mikey had the final say it was not translate to our picks..

We have all heard the stories about mikey lusting after players and desperately reaching for them.. worried they would not be there when they were projected to go..

I do not know who did what for sure just know that our drafting since 1999 or so has sucked for IMPACT players..

We have made do with OLINE guys and have done real well with LB's but beyond that most DAFTEES did not make it much past their second Training camp..Certantly not their third one.. a few #1's that soon left under less than their #1 status.. I think the only reason foster, delta, and ashley lasted as long as they did was stinging pride on mikeys part hoping they would become the studs there were supposed to be..

I totally agree with you. I dont trust Shanahan with the scouting board at all.
You forget Portis as an impact player but that is just one so your argument holds merit still.

As far as impact players I have also said the same the last four, five years.
We have had a good team quantitatively as in we have had a lot of average to slightly above average players starting and on the bench.
What we havent had are the mentioned impact players.
I remember being laughed at when I proposed the idea of going after Walther Jones and giving up two first rounder the first year he got tagged.
Turns out it would have been DJ vs Jones in hindsight. I still would have made that deal. Would you?

Come to think of it. In my "thoughts from across the pond" thread I mention how many times receivers have been looked closely upon. That list is nearly endless. Knowing how many receivers that bust, and knowing how terrible we have been at scouting, it makes perfect sense that we have had an awful lot of draft busts and lack of impact draftees over the years.

[omac]

But remember you win or lose on the LOS.. So far I have less confidence than I'd like to because of this fact..

Quite understandable, those definitely have a domino effect on even the more secure positions on the team. I just think Oakland has it even worse, specially because Al Davis seems to be trying to sabotage Kiffin. :D Btw, sorry for late reply ... been hooked on golf for some time now. :)

[Lonestar]

I totally agree with you. I dont trust Shanahan with the scouting board at all.
You forget Portis as an impact player but that is just one so your argument holds merit still.

As far as impact players I have also said the same the last four, five years.
We have had a good team quantitatively as in we have had a lot of average to slightly above average players starting and on the bench.
What we havent had are the mentioned impact players.
I remember being laughed at when I proposed the idea of going after Walther Jones and giving up two first rounder the first year he got tagged.
Turns out it would have been DJ vs Jones in hindsight. I still would have made that deal. Would you?

Come to think of it. In my "thoughts from across the pond" thread I mention how many times receivers have been looked closely upon. That list is nearly endless. Knowing how many receivers that bust, and knowing how terrible we have been at scouting, it makes perfect sense that we have had an awful lot of draft busts and lack of impact draftees over the years.


I'm not all that sure it is the scouting.. I think it is much higher than that how Else could we pick up UDFA that have made the mark for us and picked up decent FA for the most part.. No world beaters but good serviceable players..

How can they suck looking at college kids and do so well in FA's? This has been bothering me for a long time..

This is what leads me to believe it is mikey almost anyone that is not drinking the koolade sees that he has reached in most of the drafts for players. Almost every time we pick in the draft the announcers are usually saying WTF is that?


The most glaring example is Watts a great WR in a small school division. How could anyone not know he was one handed? If they knew who in there right mind would spend a quality #2 on him? Same could be said aboiut clarette, nash, middlebrooks, foster, pierce, dorsett davis, toviessi, cole, friedman, smith.

[Lonestar]

Quite understandable, those definitely have a domino effect on even the more secure positions on the team. I just think Oakland has it even worse, specially because Al Davis seems to be trying to sabotage Kiffin. :D Btw, sorry for late reply ... been hooked on golf for some time now. :)

Hell davis has sabotaged every coach he has had.. kiffin is just the latest one.. I think the last one he liked was Madden..

go back to your golf game

[WARHORSE]

I would love to do that bet, but I can't root against my team just to prove a point that doesn't need proven. But I like what ya did. Either get folks to root against their team or they have no point. Brilliant psychology...unless ya get called on it.

Go figure. It has nothing to do with rooting for your team. You say we're going backwards, then youre predicting a worse finish. You can still cheer for your team, only you'll be cheering thinking theyre gonna lose, while Im cheering thinkin theyre gonna win. It has nothing to do with rooting against them. No 'psychology' whatsoever involved in that..........but nice way to say you know they aint going to lose another 9 games this year....and agree with me.

Other than Kuper, your list of studs is the same as what the writer listed.

List the studs from the team we had that went 13-3 three years ago. That might help ya.

You reference 17 of 22 new starters last year. WELL...how many new ones will we have this year? 1 or 2 at Safety. 2 at LB. Hopefully 2 at DT. 2 at OT. 1 at WR. That is 8 or 9...I know it's not 17, but it's hardly promising...oh, and Kicker makes 9 or 10.

Well then you have a case. Lets bet. Did he mention how many starters we lost???? Did he? Did he mention how many guys we lost to season ending injuries?? How many were there?:shocked:

I'm no pessimist, but I'm also not gonna be super homer guy. I am a realist. I want the team to do well. I just don't see it right now. maybe if we have a solid draft (or at least 1 that seems that way) I'll see the light, but you fail to realize we aren't in a vaccuum. As we stagnate, teams like Buffalo, Cleveland, Houston and maybe even the Jets are passing us up. The 4 division winners will be NE, Indy/Jax, Clev/Pitt and SD. That leaves 2 wild card slots available for us, Jax/Indy, Pitt/Clev, Tenn, Hou, Buf. Sorry, I don't see us winning out right now against that list.

Just so we understand one another: San Diego SUCKS.


Well if its all about goin in the wrong direction, how many people this time of year last year thought we were goin 7-9? If you want to look simply at aquisitions and draft picks, no one was guessing under 10 wins, and that was because of the hard schedule.

I'll bet your last Bronco buck if you go back and look for Jeremy 'He is who we thought he is' Green, I'll bet you he said the Broncos were gonna be studly.

Lets face it. Shanahan giving Bates the 'head coach/Dcoordinator' position was a mistake as soon as he let Bates dictate who was gonna be brought in to help his defensive scheme. The person ultimately responsible is Shanny, and of his own choosing he allowed Bates to make the calls. Well, Bates failed and he got demoted. Shanny gets the heat for backing his boy, but I give him credit for taking over after the first few disasterous games, and the run D got better. Bates did a terrible job. The defense was his responsibility. Instead of molding the defense to the personel, he tried to make our guys play differently than where their strengths were.

This year, the Broncos are gonna be a different team. They might not set the world on fire, but they aint gonna be on the wrong side of .500 again.


You can take that to the bank, and you know it. Only way our team loses more is if we get decimated again by injury.

[WARHORSE]

If you keep listening to some of the people in here, you'd understand that Ted Sundquist had absolutely nothing to do with the Broncos player aquisitions. He was getting paid gazillions for just talking to people on other teams and crap like that. No real pull mind you.

He had no credibility in Shanahans mind, and never ever listened to who he thought we should select in the draft, or pick up in FAgency, and Shanny just kept him around all these years cause he liked the way he combed his hair and talked like he actually knew something.



Bout time Shanny figured out we didnt actually need to pay Ted for doing nothing.:coffee:

[WARHORSE]

People in here are gonna fall over if we hit in this draft.

I cant wait.


SIGS ANYONE???




The silence is deafening.................yet speaks so loudly.

[dogfish]

Just so we understand one another: San Diego SUCKS.


Well if its all about goin in the wrong direction, how many people this time of year last year thought we were goin 7-9? If you want to look simply at aquisitions and draft picks, no one was guessing under 10 wins, and that was because of the hard schedule.


http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504 ;)


no one bessides the chargers fan, but JR was only a game off-- i was overly optimistic with my 9-7 prediction. . . .


before the season started, a few of us were very concerned about the way our run "defense" was getting shredded in the preseason, and all we heard was how negative we were, etc etc. . . "it's only preseason, it doesn't mean anything" "it'll be fine once the real games start" "you're crazy, why can't you see how good this team is going to be?" "no way, we've got way too much talent to win less than 10-11 games" "i'm telling you, we'll walk away with the division"

i didn't buy it last year, and i haven't seen any reason to buy it this year either. . . doesn't mean it can't happen, because anything is possible in the NFL-- but i'm not expecting it. . . .


edit: if you've got a minute, read through this old thread (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3610) as well, and see if the discussion sounds familiar. . . .

[Lonestar]

If you keep listening to some of the people in here, you'd understand that Ted Sundquist had absolutely nothing to do with the Broncos player aquisitions. He was getting paid gazillions for just talking to people on other teams and crap like that. No real pull mind you.

He had no credibility in Shanahans mind, and never ever listened to who he thought we should select in the draft, or pick up in FAgency, and Shanny just kept him around all these years cause he liked the way he combed his hair and talked like he actually knew something.



Bout time Shanny figured out we didnt actually need to pay Ted for doing nothing.:coffee:


Mikey always had a fall guy before now he does not.. Well maybe he can now blame the scouting department.. But the margin is getting slimmer..

I think Ted talked to alot of folks and made some deals based on the Approval of mikey..

I also think that he was a gofer, go get this guy, go talk to them about this other guy..

Ted did not have the power/authority to make the final deal.. It was all signed off by mikey..

We shall see how fast or IF Ted get hired somewhere as GM that should be the tell on who was the brains in DEN..

I realize that many of you think mikey walks on water and as a Offensive Genius he might, but I do not believe anyone with a normal IQ thinks he has done a great job as Head Cheese..

[jhns]

http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504 ;)


no one bessides the chargers fan, but JR was only a game off-- i was overly optimistic with my 9-7 prediction. . . .


before the season started, a few of us were very concerned about the way our run "defense" was getting shredded in the preseason, and all we heard was how negative we were, etc etc. . . "it's only preseason, it doesn't mean anything" "it'll be fine once the real games start" "you're crazy, why can't you see how good this team is going to be?" "no way, we've got way too much talent to win less than 10-11 games" "i'm telling you, we'll walk away with the division"

i didn't buy it last year, and i haven't seen any reason to buy it this year either. . . doesn't mean it can't happen, because anything is possible in the NFL-- but i'm not expecting it. . . .


edit: if you've got a minute, read through this old thread (http://www.broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3610) as well, and see if the discussion sounds familiar. . . .

Not to be to picky but he did say this time last year. This time of the offseason is far different than after the preseason. This time of last year is when everyone is just going off of who we signed and not how they played.

[jhns]

Mikey always had a fall guy before now he does not.. Well maybe he can now blame the scouting department.. But the margin is getting slimmer..

I think Ted talked to alot of folks and made some deals based on the Approval of mikey..

I also think that he was a gofer, go get this guy, go talk to them about this other guy..

Ted did not have the power/authority to make the final deal.. It was all signed off by mikey..

We shall see how fast or IF Ted get hired somewhere as GM that should be the tell on who was the brains in DEN..

I realize that many of you think mikey walks on water and as a Offensive Genius he might, but I do not believe anyone with a normal IQ thinks he has done a great job as Head Cheese..


I do have to ask. Do you think the last few drafts have been so horrible? Do you think our FA's have been horrible the last few years?

I don't know how you could say they are. If you compare just the past 3 years to everybody else in the league, I would bet we are ranked pretty high on guys that are producing. 06 was probably the best draft that I have seen from this team in its entire history. That is even with them only playing 2 seasons. The only draft that I would say is ranked with it is the one we got Elway, and that is only because it brought the single greatest Bronco to ever play.

I don't get how you can say that there hasn't been a remarkable improvement. Last year we where riddled with injuries and youth in very critical positions. Our youth now has some experience and our injuries are healed. As long as everyone doesn't go down again, I wouldn't be expecting the same results as last year.

[Lonestar]

I do have to ask. Do you think the last few drafts have been so horrible? Do you think our FA's have been horrible the last few years?

no I think the last TWO years have been pretty damned good SO FAR.. My only thought here is someone else was relied on to help make those choices.. face it no one here really believes that he made those DL picks do they?

I don't know how you could say they are. If you compare just the past 3 years to everybody else in the league, I would bet we are ranked pretty high on guys that are producing. 06 was probably the best draft that I have seen from this team in its entire history. That is even with them only playing 2 seasons. The only draft that I would say is ranked with it is the one we got Elway, and that is only because it brought the single greatest Bronco to ever play.

I don't get how you can say that there hasn't been a remarkable improvement. Last year we where riddled with injuries and youth in very critical positions. Our youth now has some experience and our injuries are healed. As long as everyone doesn't go down again, I wouldn't be expecting the same results as last year.

I'm do not make predictions quite this early and never before the draft and getting to see how other teams did in the draft and even JUNE 1 cuts although there are fewer of those that in the past with the changes in the CBA, That allow them to be cut and designated as 01JUN cuts for cap purposes..

But that said so far I see nothing to show me that we will be much better than last year..

WE had 4 games last year but by the grace of God we won..

weak one beat BUF in BUF +1
It was over when...
Jason Elam, who had missed two field goals earlier, nailed the game-winning kick as time expired, in one of the most improbable sequences in recent memory..Without any time outs, Javon Walker caught an 11-yard pass with 18 seconds remaining and the Broncos were able to get the field-goal unit out in time for Elam's 42-yard kick.
A win we should probably not have gotten.. but a win

weak Two +3
It was over when ...
Sebastian Janikowski kicked a 52-yard field goal with 11:13 left in the game. Or was it? The Broncos signaled for a timeout, which nullified Janikowski's practice attempt, while his second kick bounced off the goal post. Jason Elam, for the second consecutive week, booted the game-winner, a 23-yarder in overtime. Mike Shanahan quipped in his press conference that his team must hate him, as it continues to win games in thrilling fashion.
A home win we should probably not have gotten.. but another win

Weak Three lost to Panthers by 9 in DEN 23-14 -9

Weak Four lost by 18 at INDY. 20-38 -18

Weak 5 lost to SAN by 38 at DEN 41-3 -38

Week 6 the only reason we did not lose was we had a BYE..

Week 7 beat PIT at home 28-31 +3
It was over when ...
Jason Elam kicked a 49-yard field goal as time expired to give the Broncos the win. Elam has kicked a walk-off field goal in all three of the Broncos' victories this year.

Weak 8 lost to GB in OT in DEN 19-13 -6
Beat by two BOMBS from an old man..

WEAK 9 lost to DET in DET 44-7 -37
It was over when ...
Detroit stopped the Broncos on 4th-and-goal with 7:43 remaining in the third quarter to preserve the shutout. Two plays later, Jon Kitna completed a pair of 40-plus-yard passes, including a 49-yard TD to Shaun McDonald, to put the Lions up 30-0.
DET for Gods sake!!!!!!!

Week 10
we finally beat KC in KC BFD 27-11 one of the only teams in the league worse than we were.. -16
was over when ...
Broncos tight end Daniel Graham caught an 18-yard touchdown pass with 10:44 left in the fourth quarter, giving Denver a 27-11 lead and leaving the Chiefs to attempt a comeback with backup QB Brodie Croyle.

Week 11
MNF Win at DEN beat TEN 20-34 +14

Weak 12
Lost at CHI to a another pathetic team..34-37 -3
It was over when ...
Robbie Gould's field goal sailed through the uprights in overtime to give the Bears an improbable 37-34 win. It was the fifth time this season a Broncos game was decided on the final play, and Denver is now 3-2 in such contests.

Weak 13
lost @ OAK 20-34 -14
was over when ...
Justin Griffith took a short pass from Josh McCown and rumbled 13-yards for a first down on third-and-11 with 6:23 left in the fourth quarter. That play kept alive the Raiders' drive that ultimately produced Justin Fargas' 5-yard touchdown run about three minutes later, giving Oakland an insurmountable 34-20 lead.

week 14
a cheesy win in DEN over KC 41-7 +34

Weak 15
lose in HOU 31-13 -18
It was over when ...
The Texans answered Denver's only touchdown -- a 12-yard Jay Cutler pass to TE Tony Scheffler -- with a nine-play drive that ended with a 4-yard Sage Rosenfels touchdown pass to WR Andre Johnson. The drive took 5:30 off the clock and gave the Texans a 24-13 fourth-quarter lead.

Weak 16
lose AGAIN to SAN 3-23 -20

Weak 17
an OT home win against MIN 22-19 +3
It was over when ...
Vikings QB Tarvaris Jackson lost a fumble on a sack by DT Alvin McKinley and LB Jamie Winborn on the Vikings' first drive of overtime. Broncos kicker Jason Elam kicked a 30-yard field on the next play to win it.


Now in this season just where did you really see anything to be proud of?? To build on for 2008 other than Jay and Marshall had a good year and a great year respectively..

We won whoopers by
+1 in BUF
+3 to OAK IN DEN
+3 in DEN over PIT
+16 in KC
+14 @ home on MNF over TEN
+34 over KC @ home
+3 in OT over MIN @ home on a fumble recovery in OT
AVE win 10.6

but lost
-9 to panthers in DEN
-18 in INDY
-38 to SAN in in DEN
-6 to GB
-37 in DET
-3 in CHI
-14 to OAK
-18 @ HOU
-20 @ SAN

avg LOSS 18.1

Split with a team that is picking #4 total differential 11
Beat the #5 team twice BFD by 50
Beat the #11 team by 1 on lucky FG.
LOST to the #13 team by 9 at home
LOST to the #14 team by 3
LOST to the #15 team 37
beat the #17 by 3 on a fumble recovery in OT
LOST to the #18 team by 18
Beat the #23 team by 3
Beat the #24 team by 14
LOST twice to the #27 team by 58
LOST to the #30 by 6

Sorry I do not see that this was such a special season even considering the injuries and drama.

The guy that won 4 of those games in last second fashion is gone..

[Italianmobstr7]

We beat 2 playoff teams (pitt, ten) and a team that was best at rushing, and best at stopping the run in a game that THEY HAD TO WIN TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS. We should've beat Green Bay who went to the NFC Championship, and we definitely choked against Chicago, but still should've won that game if it wasn't for terrible special teams play and Sauerbruns bright idea to kick to Hester. We had some bright spots last year (we killed KC twice, although that's not saying much.) and we had our down times (2 blowouts against SD, and a loss against Oak) but still, things could've been worse. We had some bad breaks, and some bad luck. We'll be stronger at DL, S, OL, and special teams. Our D will be back to being better with our old system back in place. We have some things to build on this year. I'm not calling Super Bowl, or even playoffs, but the playoffs aren't an unrealistic goal.

Also, I hear that our draft have been horrible since 1999. "no impact players"? Clinton Portis, DJ Williams, Jay Cutler, Elvis Dumervil, Dominque Foxworth, Darrent Williams (R.I.P.), Marcus Thomas, Brandon Marshall, Tony Scheffler, Reggie Hayward, Ian Gold, Al Wilson, Desmond Clark, Olandis Gary, Montae Reagor, Mike Anderson. Some are yet to be great, others have already started, and some are no longer with the team, but are still good. Our drafting hasn't been the greatest, but the past few years haven't been bad. Some people are too critical. We've had 2 losing seasons since Shanny took over in 1995. 2. That right there tells you that we're consistently a good team, and even if we're down, that we won't be down for long.

[omac]

I agree with Italianmobster7.

Despite our terrible Bates-defense last season, we could've won the Green Bay game, and we should've won Chicago. Lepsis never really recovered his game, and Nalen and Hamilton were out. Our #1 wr was injured most of the season, and our #1 back was never really healthy past about 4 games; add injuries to our #2 & #3 back, as well as our slot receiver. Any team that loses that many key players on offense, while allowing their opponents to run on them easily is not going to win many games.

Now that Bates is gone, I expect our run defense to be much better, hopefully top 18 at least; we were top 12 the year before Bates, and top 2 the year before that. The Broncos knew how to stop the run before, and they will again.

If the line and Henry (and ofcourse Cutler) can stay healthy the whole season, I think we can win at least 10 games. Remember the Colts game ... we were marching down the field easy with our 3(?) TE blocking sets; sure we didn't score much, but neither did the Giants in their early possesion against the Pats. When the Colts decided to run the ball instead of passing, thats when we lost the game with the Bates defense.

[Lonestar]

I agree with Italianmobster7.

Despite our terrible Bates-defense last season, we could've won the Green Bay game, and we should've won Chicago. Lepsis never really recovered his game, and Nalen and Hamilton were out. Our #1 wr was injured most of the season, and our #1 back was never really healthy past about 4 games; add injuries to our #2 & #3 back, as well as our slot receiver. Any team that loses that many key players on offense, while allowing their opponents to run on them easily is not going to win many games.

Now that Bates is gone, I expect our run defense to be much better, hopefully top 18 at least; we were top 12 the year before Bates, and top 2 the year before that. The Broncos knew how to stop the run before, and they will again.

If the line and Henry (and ofcourse Cutler) can stay healthy the whole season, I think we can win at least 10 games. Remember the Colts game ... we were marching down the field easy with our 3(?) TE blocking sets; sure we didn't score much, but neither did the Giants in their early possesion against the Pats. When the Colts decided to run the ball instead of passing, thats when we lost the game with the Bates defense.



rrealistically our run defense was good in those years because they could pass at will because we did not have a DL that could pressure the QB like we still do not have..

So your correct lest feel good about ourselves a nd say we had a good RUN defense and then get into the playoff and be ONE & DONE again..


IF IF IF until this team makes a commitment to the LOS players a few studs here and there it will consistently have decent to great season and watch the Superbowl from the stands..

What good does it do to have the best CB in the league and perhaps history of the league if the QB has all day to make the throws Blitzing was not the answer in coyer era what make your think it will matter next year with Slowik version one that he failed at at his last place of employment.

It was not just Bates last year it was the total lack of talent and not having decent players to step in when the starters went down..

That all boils down to mikeys total failure in bringing in draft choices that stick with the club.. his total devotion to "filling in" the holes with overpriced FA's.

I asked a question other day. How much dead cap space has mikey cost us with his personnel decisions.. over the years.. my guess is well over 50mil probably closer to 80. Why does that not bother anyone but me?

No body wants to know, do you?. Because he is a great offensive mind does not excuse what he has done to this team in acquiring and maintaining draft talent..

[HolyDiver]

I watched part of the 2006 SanDiego game the other day. Night and day difference in the way the Defense lined up................Bates really ruined a very good run Defense.............all by himself.

[omac]

rrealistically our run defense was good in those years because they could pass at will because we did not have a DL that could pressure the QB like we still do not have..

So your correct lest feel good about ourselves a nd say we had a good RUN defense and then get into the playoff and be ONE & DONE again..


IF IF IF until this team makes a commitment to the LOS players a few studs here and there it will consistently have decent to great season and watch the Superbowl from the stands..

What good does it do to have the best CB in the league and perhaps history of the league if the QB has all day to make the throws Blitzing was not the answer in coyer era what make your think it will matter next year with Slowik version one that he failed at at his last place of employment.

It was not just Bates last year it was the total lack of talent and not having decent players to step in when the starters went down..

That all boils down to mikeys total failure in bringing in draft choices that stick with the club.. his total devotion to "filling in" the holes with overpriced FA's.

I asked a question other day. How much dead cap space has mikey cost us with his personnel decisions.. over the years.. my guess is well over 50mil probably closer to 80. Why does that not bother anyone but me?

No body wants to know, do you?. Because he is a great offensive mind does not excuse what he has done to this team in acquiring and maintaining draft talent..

Bates was a huge part of the problem; I'm not the only one here who's noticed that he's had seasons where his team's rushing defense was ranked pretty low. Some of the big line guys who went bust were acquired specifically for Bates; like Bowlen said in an interview then, if you have Bates, might as well get the beef ... or something like that. :D Those were definitely NOT typical denver style defensive players; they were taken as a response to Bates system. If Bates did not approve of them, he would've told Shanny. Denver specifically got players in the draft and elsewhere for Bates. Moss was supposed to be a Bates type end. Shanny gave control of the defense over to Bates, including getting players he normally wouldn't have, in order to give Bates every opportunity to succeed using his system. We even cut one of our better run stuffers, because he didn't buy into the Bates system.

If I were to choose whether to have a team that can't seem to stop the run or a team that can't seem to stop the pass, I'd rather have a team that can't stop the pass. With a pass, the offense is prone to making more mistakes ... bad pass, bad route, poor catch, bad timing, etc. With a run, you just give it to the rb ... very low risk. Also, if you can't stop the run, you immediately lose the important time of possesion and you keep your offense cold. I'm pretty sure after last season that everyone here would agree that they'd rather we were weaker at stopping the pass than stopping the run. When you can't stop the run, you have no chance.

You talk about the LOS; last season, we've invested our top picks on the LOS; we got 2 ends and an offensive and defensive tackle. Someone posted on these boards that Elvis, also drafted by Shanny, was rated as the 3rd best defensive end when attacking the QB. Foster was an attempt at fortifying the line, but it didn't work out, yet he didn't neglect the line that time. Why are we still talking about the LOS? The last few drafts have been pretty good .... DJ, Elvis, Jay, Brandon, Scheff, Thomas ... Moss and Crowder seemed to be doing okay before their injuries. The free agent acquisitions of Graham and Stokley were well worth it. It was probably a mistake to let Warren go just because he didn't fit Bates system.

Blame Shanny for his mistakes, but also credit him for the things he does right; for the poor rush defense last season, blame Bates, and blame Shanny for hiring Bates. Blame Shanny for drafting Foster, etc, but credit Shanny for getting Nalen, Hamilton, Elvis, signing Lepsis, etc. It's gotta go both ways.

[Ziggy]

I don't think the Broncos are going the wrong way, actually just the opposite. I do, however, think that we are paying for the mistakes of past drafts. Of the 26 players we drafted from 02-05, 17 of them are out of the nfl. That is completely unacceptable and will make any team have some growing pains. However, as bad as those drafts were, the 06 draft is just as good. Possibly the best in Broncos history. I don't think you can judge last years draft for another year or 2. Defensive lineman tend to take longer to develop than other positions. Anyone remember Trevor Price's rookie year? He was on the inactive list for 8 games, and had a grand total of 2 sacks and 24 tackles. Give the kids on the dline another 2 years before you start judging thier production. We should have a better idea this year of what we have in Ryan Harris.

I am happy to see the Broncos change thier strategy on high priced veteran free agents. It looks as if they are going to bring in younger, cheaper prospects and hope they pan out. If they don't, a lot less harm done. Niko, Colbert, and Boss could be strong additions to this team. Then again, if they're not, we haven't lost the kind of money we did by bringing in Dale Carter, Darryl Gardener, Javon Walker, and players of that nature.

Call me crazy, but I think Mike is building for the future while still trying to win. Trading up for Cutler was the first step in that process. Rebuilding the D-line through the draft was the second, and bringing in younger, lower priced free agents was the third. Don't be surprised if they move down in this draft to aquire more picks and fill in holes with those picks. It took a while, but I think Shanny is starting to see the light in rebuilding through the draft and supplementing with free agency, instead of the other way around.

[HolyDiver]

We could have had Brandon Jacobs over Maurice Clarett................Alot of 2000-2004 went that way. ..............DJ Williams is our lone exception.

[Retired_Member_001]

If I were to choose whether to have a team that can't seem to stop the run or a team that can't seem to stop the pass, I'd rather have a team that can't stop the pass. With a pass, the offense is prone to making more mistakes ... bad pass, bad route, poor catch, bad timing, etc. With a run, you just give it to the rb ... very low risk. Also, if you can't stop the run, you immediately lose the important time of possesion and you keep your offense cold. I'm pretty sure after last season that everyone here would agree that they'd rather we were weaker at stopping the pass than stopping the run. When you can't stop the run, you have no chance.


Exactly. I mean look at the Super Bowl winning Giants, their pass defense with all the injuries was poor. But a good run defense and a great pass rush changes all of that. The Week 17 Giants V Patriots game and the Super Bowl are perfect examples of how a great defensive line with some decent linebackers can make possibly one of the greatest passing attacks in the history of the game look above average.

[Lonestar]

Bates was a huge part of the problem; I'm not the only one here who's noticed that he's had seasons where his team's rushing defense was ranked pretty low. Some of the big line guys who went bust were acquired specifically for Bates; like Bowlen said in an interview then, if you have Bates, might as well get the beef ... or something like that. :D Those were definitely NOT typical denver style defensive players; they were taken as a response to Bates system. If Bates did not approve of them, he would've told Shanny. Denver specifically got players in the draft and elsewhere for Bates. Moss was supposed to be a Bates type end. Shanny gave control of the defense over to Bates, including getting players he normally wouldn't have, in order to give Bates every opportunity to succeed using his system. We even cut one of our better run stuffers, because he didn't buy into the Bates system.

If I were to choose whether to have a team that can't seem to stop the run or a team that can't seem to stop the pass, I'd rather have a team that can't stop the pass. With a pass, the offense is prone to making more mistakes ... bad pass, bad route, poor catch, bad timing, etc. With a run, you just give it to the rb ... very low risk. Also, if you can't stop the run, you immediately lose the important time of possesion and you keep your offense cold. I'm pretty sure after last season that everyone here would agree that they'd rather we were weaker at stopping the pass than stopping the run. When you can't stop the run, you have no chance.

You talk about the LOS; last season, we've invested our top picks on the LOS; we got 2 ends and an offensive and defensive tackle. Someone posted on these boards that Elvis, also drafted by Shanny, was rated as the 3rd best defensive end when attacking the QB. Foster was an attempt at fortifying the line, but it didn't work out, yet he didn't neglect the line that time. Why are we still talking about the LOS? The last few drafts have been pretty good .... DJ, Elvis, Jay, Brandon, Scheff, Thomas ... Moss and Crowder seemed to be doing okay before their injuries. The free agent acquisitions of Graham and Stokley were well worth it. It was probably a mistake to let Warren go just because he didn't fit Bates system.

Blame Shanny for his mistakes, but also credit him for the things he does right; for the poor rush defense last season, blame Bates, and blame Shanny for hiring Bates. Blame Shanny for drafting Foster, etc, but credit Shanny for getting Nalen, Hamilton, Elvis, signing Lepsis, etc. It's gotta go both ways.


I give him credit for doing a pretty good job at trying to maintain a system that has declined for almost a decade now..

Sure we have had a great running attack between the 20's but then Elam pardon the pun "kicked in". Cause we flat do not have the beef inside the 5 to consistently run the ball..

You made my case that mikey had zero to do with getting players for the LOS last year and taking Dumervil in the 4th I do not think qualifies for ranking him as a LOS advocate.. It was a lark draft and while it worked out yes he does get credit for it or perhaps coyers should, he was the guy that called his name..

Perhaps Bates was the bad guy for last years lousy D.. But who will it be this year.. Slowik or will it be mikey for not getting a quality replacement for Bates..

Your correct about the passing game being less risk than the running game less % to work but the problem with that is it gives up yardage in BIGGER chunks about 7.5 not just 3.5 at a time on the ground..

But the real issue is it is still YARDAGE

I have given mikey all the credit for his DAFTING. I've never said he has not had TWO good drafts those being the last two and have consistently said he has done well with LB and RB. But that is all and frankly his day one drafting has sucked until 2006 and 07 although the jury is still out on 07..

If you objectively go back and look at all of mickey day one choices almost all of them lasted 3-4 years and were gone. Whether it be flat getting cut or a BS trade for less than value..

Then there is the ability to manage good players and get them resigned before they hit FA year.. He either completely overpaid for them or failed to make a decision on them and allowed them to get to FA and could not afford them any longer..

Anyone that is objective sees that something is wrong in the personnel area on this team.. Sure he has had a few home runs but he has had a lot more strikeouts..

I'm glad that Pat has stepped in and turned this around, from living off of expensive FA types, to wanting to rebuild this team VIA the draft.. Now lets see how much input he has on draft day..

[Lonestar]

I don't think the Broncos are going the wrong way, actually just the opposite. I do, however, think that we are paying for the mistakes of past drafts. Of the 26 players we drafted from 02-05, 17 of them are out of the nfl. That is completely unacceptable and will make any team have some growing pains. However, as bad as those drafts were, the 06 draft is just as good. Possibly the best in Broncos history. I don't think you can judge last years draft for another year or 2. Defensive lineman tend to take longer to develop than other positions. Anyone remember Trevor Price's rookie year? He was on the inactive list for 8 games, and had a grand total of 2 sacks and 24 tackles. Give the kids on the dline another 2 years before you start judging thier production. We should have a better idea this year of what we have in Ryan Harris.

I am happy to see the Broncos change thier strategy on high priced veteran free agents. It looks as if they are going to bring in younger, cheaper prospects and hope they pan out. If they don't, a lot less harm done. Niko, Colbert, and Boss could be strong additions to this team. Then again, if they're not, we haven't lost the kind of money we did by bringing in Dale Carter, Darryl Gardener, Javon Walker, and players of that nature.

Call me crazy, but I think Mike is building for the future while still trying to win. Trading up for Cutler was the first step in that process. Rebuilding the D-line through the draft was the second, and bringing in younger, lower priced free agents was the third. Don't be surprised if they move down in this draft to aquire more picks and fill in holes with those picks. It took a while, but I think Shanny is starting to see the light in rebuilding through the draft and supplementing with free agency, instead of the other way around.


Your pretty much dead on here but let me add..

price did not play much because we had a strong DLine in front of him, he also played a lot of LB in college. That DLine at the time was much better that the ones of the past 4-5 years.. price could have stepped in and played if not started on any of these past few years DLines..

Yes second tier DL type takes some time to be great and start, but as bad as this team was last year anyone one of 4-5 DT in this draft could step in and play if not start this coming season.. Perhaps not on opening day.. but by mid season..

Your crazy if you believe this was a Divine Revelation that struck mikey about building via the draft, it was IMO PAT laying down the law..

TO make a 180 degree turn in one year is not totally mikeys idea..

[underrated29]

You know we got all the yardage we needed last year. We just oculdnt punch it in. Why not get a rb like stewart that doesnt need a good LOS to find paydirt. That solves 1 problem. Then use 1 other pick on an OL type, to help the lineout (beef). The rest go to DT,LB,S. Lets pack the middle of our d so tight that nothing will come through it.

IF we are able to trade down and pick up another second or 3rd. I think all of that can be achieved and possibly an 11-12 win season could follow.

How many trips did we have to the redzone? I bet one of the tops in the league, just imagine if those were 7pts instead of 3 or nil. Changes all the games right there, and also the way the other teams play. We need more tds. Get the rb that will get those tds regardless. And patch up the defense. The oline will come, but just make sure jay is safe.

[Lonestar]

Exactly. I mean look at the Super Bowl winning Giants, their pass defense with all the injuries was poor. But a good run defense and a great pass rush changes all of that. The Week 17 Giants V Patriots game and the Super Bowl are perfect examples of how a great defensive line with some decent linebackers can make possibly one of the greatest passing attacks in the history of the game look above average.

good post
Which just means you win and lose on the LOS something that we have not been doing for almost a decade.

[DenBronx]

are there any chances of stewart falling out of the 1st round?

[Lonestar]

are there any chances of stewart falling out of the 1st round?

NONE, SEA would love to have a local big kid to replace their aging stud RB..

[underrated29]

I hope we dont find out as we take him at pick like 18. But if he does make it to 2. Shanny will definitley go get him.

[LRtagger]

I believe I read that Stewart would like to play for either Denver or Seattle. If we do not draft him at #12, rest assured that Seattle will nab him.

[shank]

I believe I read that Stewart would like to play for either Denver or Seattle. If we do not draft him at #12, rest assured that Seattle will nab him.

seattle already signed tj duckett and julius jones.

[Ziggy]

are there any chances of stewart falling out of the 1st round?

perhaps 1 in 1000

[Lonestar]

seattle already signed tj duckett and julius jones.

but they are not Stewart..

[BOSSHOGG30]

seattle already signed tj duckett and julius jones.

Duckett stinks and Julius Jones is only a decent #2 guy.... Seattle still needs a #1 back.... similar to the situation we find ourselves in. We have plenty of talent for a back up back, but we don't have that all purpose back. If only Henry was a few years younger and more durable.

[underrated29]

EVERYTHING they just said above, plus seattle has a huge hard on for stewart, similiar to jones and dmac. Only seattles man might drop to them. But they LOVE him!!!

[SmilinAssasSin27]

Stewart is from Washington. His ideal would be Seattle. I'm guessing Denver would be a #2 due to:
1-Draft position
2-History of RB success
3-Quality of franchise relative to location if not Seattle
4-Desire to please me

[jhns]

Sorry I do not see that this was such a special season even considering the injuries and drama.

The guy that won 4 of those games in last second fashion is gone..

That was a long post so I only quoted this part but am commenting on more than just this.

Are you serious? So if we have good drafts, Shanahan has nothing to do with them BUT if we have bad drafts then it is all Shanahan...... I do not get your logic. He relies on people EVERY draft to help make the selections, as he can't evaluate all of the prospects in the draft. In fact, he can't even come close to doing that. This is the part that you fail to understand, or at least it seems that way in your responses to most threads. You really are just looking for reasons to cry about the team now.

So why is it all on him if the personel decisions are bad but when they are good you want to take all of the credit away from him and give it to others?


I do also have to say, there is no "we should have lost". You win or you lose. You are saying that every close game should have gone to the loser because the other team didn't win by enough..... If you win by .0000000001 points, you win the game. There is no you should of, could of, or would of lost. The winning team did what it takes to win and the losing team didn't do enough. It doesn't matter if it is the last second that you take the lead or if it is the first quarter and you hold it from there. It doesn't matter if you win by 1 or 100.

Again, we where injured and young last season. If you don't get that, then I don't know what to tell you. You just like to bash everything Broncos and can't even take the wins that we did get.

[Retired_Member_001]

Duckett stinks and Julius Jones is only a decent #2 guy.... Seattle still needs a #1 back.... similar to the situation we find ourselves in. We have plenty of talent for a back up back, but we don't have that all purpose back. If only Henry was a few years younger and more durable.

And less stupid.

[WARHORSE]

I give him credit for doing a pretty good job at trying to maintain a system that has declined for almost a decade now..

Sure we have had a great running attack between the 20's but then Elam pardon the pun "kicked in". Cause we flat do not have the beef inside the 5 to consistently run the ball..

You made my case that mikey had zero to do with getting players for the LOS last year and taking Dumervil in the 4th I do not think qualifies for ranking him as a LOS advocate.. It was a lark draft and while it worked out yes he does get credit for it or perhaps coyers should, he was the guy that called his name..

Perhaps Bates was the bad guy for last years lousy D.. But who will it be this year.. Slowik or will it be mikey for not getting a quality replacement for Bates..

Your correct about the passing game being less risk than the running game less % to work but the problem with that is it gives up yardage in BIGGER chunks about 7.5 not just 3.5 at a time on the ground..

But the real issue is it is still YARDAGE

I have given mikey all the credit for his DAFTING. I've never said he has not had TWO good drafts those being the last two and have consistently said he has done well with LB and RB. But that is all and frankly his day one drafting has sucked until 2006 and 07 although the jury is still out on 07..

If you objectively go back and look at all of mickey day one choices almost all of them lasted 3-4 years and were gone. Whether it be flat getting cut or a BS trade for less than value..

Then there is the ability to manage good players and get them resigned before they hit FA year.. He either completely overpaid for them or failed to make a decision on them and allowed them to get to FA and could not afford them any longer..

Anyone that is objective sees that something is wrong in the personnel area on this team.. Sure he has had a few home runs but he has had a lot more strikeouts..

I'm glad that Pat has stepped in and turned this around, from living off of expensive FA types, to wanting to rebuild this team VIA the draft.. Now lets see how much input he has on draft day..



We have never had a problem with YARDAGE under Shanahan. And although we had a couple of years of bad drafts, we had good drafts prior to those as well. Look at the whole body of work. The Darrent Williams draft was also a good draft, and led to our getting the kid that will take our team into the next decade. That is the most important position on the team, give him the props for drafting him in spite of Plummers winning percentage.

Maybe you should go back through the drafts we tanked on, and tell us who we should have drafted. That ought to bring a TON of light to the situation. You get to cheat, you'll be GM of the decade cause you already know who ended up to be great players and who didnt. Pretty simple undertaking.

And how come fourth rounders dont count for good drafting? Isnt potential part of the draft evaluation of players? Youre sending mixed messages here.

We have been a winning org for the longest under Shanahans total control, and all of that includes FA choices and drafts. The way you describe the GM position is like youre supposed to have the ability to look into the future. NO ONE can predict where any player pans out coming out of the draft, and its a crap shoot more often than not.

Ozzie Newsome is a great GM. So is Pioli. Think they havent had their bad years? Think again.

Its not so much that you bring up the fact that we had some bad drafts, its the fact that you act like Shanny is ALWAYS supposed to pick the right guy in every draft. Nobody always picks the right guys. And anyone can go back in hindsite and say what Shanahan should have done.

We need to hire a seer.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/warhorse001/scaryfarmer.gif

People talk trash about us bringing in the Browns linemen and yada, yada, yada. What was the correct option that Shanahan was supposed to take that year that would have taken us to the superbowl?




In the end, we suffer some times for trying to go to the superbowl every year..................I'll take that any day of the year over a 'rebuilding' team. I'll give you a list of 'rebuilding' teams that have been rebuilding for generations.

Superbowl.

THIS year.


Not next.


Broncos or die.

[Lonestar]

We have never had a problem with YARDAGE under Shanahan.

What we have had is problems with scoring TD's.

And although we had a couple of years of bad drafts, we had good drafts prior to those as well. Look at the whole body of work.

Show me those good drafts other than LB's, late round OLINE and RB almost Nada.

The Darrent Williams draft was also a good draft, and led to our getting the kid that will take our team into the next decade.

what was so great about this draft? darrent that most people where calling for foxworth to replace him with in NOV.. Foxy and Paymah? No I do not buy this was a good draft at all.If everyone was correct about foxy being better than darrent why did mikey go after Bly so hard?

That is the most important position on the team, give him the props for drafting him in spite of Plummers winning percentage.

I think taking Jay in hindsight was a good move although I was a Jake fan and would have taken a DT that year instead.. We still need a DT..


Maybe you should go back through the drafts we tanked on, and tell us who we should have drafted. That ought to bring a TON of light to the situation. You get to cheat, you'll be GM of the decade cause you already know who ended up to be great players and who didnt. Pretty simple undertaking.

Done that many times on mania not going to waste my time again.. surely someone else on the freak did it also, there are no surprises that mikey could have made a lot of better choices.. Javon over ashley is the one that was the absolute no brainer.

And how come fourth rounders dont count for good drafting? I;snt potential part of the draft evaluation of players? Youre sending mixed messages here.

Fourth rounders do count when they work out but for the most part they are at best ST or TC fodder.. but mikey has lived and died on 4-7 rounders for his OLINE/RB strategy. Been great players between the 20's inside the red zone well that is why Jason was/is the highest scoring FG kicker for the past decade..

We have been a winning org for the longest under Shanahans total control, and all of that includes FA choices and drafts. The way you describe the GM position is like youre supposed to have the ability to look into the future. NO ONE can predict where any player pans out coming out of the draft, and its a crap shoot more often than not.

For many of those years of having winning season we have been beating up of the like of KC, OAK and for the longest time SAN.. when SAN was the doormat of the league for years.

Ozzie Newsome is a great GM. So is Pioli. Think they havent had their bad years? Think again.

have never said they have not but do you expect better from them than you would from mikey Etal.

Its not so much that you bring up the fact that we had some bad drafts, its the fact that you act like Shanny is ALWAYS supposed to pick the right guy in every draft. Nobody always picks the right guys. And anyone can go back in hindsite and say what Shanahan should have done.


People talk trash about us bringing in the Browns linemen and yada, yada, yada. What was the correct option that Shanahan was supposed to take that year that would have taken us to the superbowl?

I thought at the time the browncos were good deal considering mikey had NEAR paced a priority on the DL and getting 4 top ten picks of to the deal left me almost giddy.. One of the best deals we could have done IMO who was to know that Brown would go lame and warren was a head case..


In the end, we suffer some times for trying to go to the Superbowl every year..................I'll take that any day of the year over a 'rebuilding' team. I'll give you a list of 'rebuilding' teams that have been rebuilding for generations.

Superbowl.

THIS year.


Not next.


Broncos or die.

I have been saying for years this team was rebuilding or should be.. To some of us that also see other teams from other cities as much if not more than most bronco fans it is/was apparent that this team has been in decline since the HOF players left it.. yet because cosmetically we lad the league in running yards and have a lopsided defense against the run or pass and mikey would pour the koolade each year everyone was drinking it..

Y'all can believe what you wish about mikey being the best thing since sliced bread.. I do not he is a great offensive mastermind, although the past few years may prove that to be a falsehood also.. This year IMO is make or break for mikey at least as VP Operations with everything but Pat under his thumb.
If he does not pull a huge white fluffy rabbit out of his cap with major improvements in wins and massive reductions in yards allowed. He is toast.. He may stick on as HC but someone else will be calling the shots on personnel decisions, that is if Pat is not already doing this..

[omac]

You made my case that mikey had zero to do with getting players for the LOS last year and taking Dumervil in the 4th I do not think qualifies for ranking him as a LOS advocate.. It was a lark draft and while it worked out yes he does get credit for it or perhaps coyers should, he was the guy that called his name..

So now it's probably Coyer who got Elvis (who you used to say was a big mistake; maybe at that time, he was drafted by Shanny, hehe); it's probably Bates who drafted Moss, Crowder, and Thomas right? ... yet it was Shanny who brought in the the tackles that we had to cut, not Bates, or thats what you used to imply before right? It wasn't Bates who brought them in, right?


I give him credit for doing a pretty good job at trying to maintain a system that has declined for almost a decade now.

Is that the reason why more and more teams are adapting the zone-blocking scheme, because it's outdated? Kiffin implemented it for the Raiders and they became 6th in rushing. The 3 years Gibbs implemented it in Atlanta before retiring, the Falcons led the league in rushing. Kubiak brought in (?) Gibbs to better implement the zone-blocking scheme.

Now if you're not just talking about the zone-blocking, but also the roll-outs and misdirection .... these are a few teams that I've watched that have closely mirrored Denver's style of offense ..... Jacksonville, Houston, Oakland ... Tennessee tried, but Young just doesn't pass well when on the move. Watch those teams last season, and you'd think they've stolen Denver's bread and butter playbook.

The rbbc that Denver popularized ... more teams are following suit, even as Denver is trying to move away from it. Dallas, Carolina, NE, Tennessee, etc.


Sure we have had a great running attack between the 20's but then Elam pardon the pun "kicked in". Cause we flat do not have the beef inside the 5 to consistently run the ball..

I do not have the stats to know where the rushing TDs came from, whether from inside, outside left or right, or whether they came from beyond the 5; what I do know is as recently as 2005, the Broncos had 25 rushing TDs for the season. In 2004, the Falcons had 20 rushing TDs; 2003, Denver had 20 rushing TDs. Besides the rushing yardages they get, I'd say those were pretty good amounts for rushing TDs.

Ofcourse, there are different approaches. A lot of teams don't use zone-blocking, but more teams are actually shifting towards zone-blocking, or are incorporating some form of zone-blocking in their attack. The Steelers use a more traditional style, yet for a team that prides itself in its rushing attack, they've only had 9 rushing TDs this season; they've had much more passing TDs. The Colts don't have a very big offensive line, and they averaged an abysmal 3.8 ypc, but they did manage 19 rushing TDs. Some teams use the run to set up the pass, while others use the pass to set up the run. There are just a lot of factors that contribute to the number of rushing TDs.

Last season, despite having Nalen and Hamilton out, Lepsis not fully himself, and some new guys on the line, even playing new possitions, our #1 rb out or not fully recovered past the first 4 games, and a juggle of the #2 & #3 rb, whichever was healthier, the Broncos still managed 9th in rushing offense. That's pretty good.


Your correct about the passing game being less risk than the running game less % to work but the problem with that is it gives up yardage in BIGGER chunks about 7.5 not just 3.5 at a time on the ground..

But if a team gets those yardages while eating up all of the clock, then you have no time to mount an offense. That's huge. There are teams like the Vikings ... teams play them 8 or 9 in the box, because their QBs just aren't any good. If you stop the run, you stop the Vikings. We were doing okay against the Colts passing offense, until they switched it up and went with the run. SD will continue to sweep the floor with us until we stop the run.

Would you rather we give up rushing yardage easier than giving up passing yardage?

On a final note; the wording of your posts show you give Shanny credit begrudgingly; you use words like daft instead of draft. You imply that it was Coyer, Bates, or now even Bolden that is making the possitive moves, not Shanny. That's okay, some people like Shanny running this team, others want a change. On the flipside, we can have Herm and the forever rebuilding stage; we can have Marvin and a lot of player disarray; we can have Lovie and forever be contented with choosing between Rex & Kylie, and getting rid of our #1 and #2 receivers. Face it, few organizations have been as consistently good over several years as the Broncos have under Shannahan.

[omac]

On a side, side note, we haven't seen enough of Orton to say he's really bad; he's actually had a pretty good game late in the season, so who knows.