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broncofaninfla
03-22-2010, 07:53 AM
Broncos owner says Orton is "still our quarterback" (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/22/broncos-owner-says-orton-is-still-our-quarterback/)

Posted by Mike Florio on March 22, 2010 7:12 AM ET
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/assets_c/2010/03/K.%20Orton-thumb-250x185-7257.jpg (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/K.%20Orton.jpg)Last week, the Denver Broncos traded for quarterback Brady Quinn. The move prompted immediate speculation that Quinn would be installed as the starting quarterback over incumbent Kyle Orton.

Though it might happen eventually, the role won't be handed to Quinn -- just as it wasn't handed to him in Cleveland.

"It'll be interesting (http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_14727792?source=rss&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter)," owner Pat Bowlen told Mike Klis of the Denver Post at the league meetings in Orlando. "He's got the right tools and pedigree. Kyle's still our quarterback, absolutely. Quinn hasn't beaten Kyle out. He hasn't thrown a football."

But if Orton doesn't sign his one-year tender offer before the time offseason practices commence, Quinn will get a chance to throw plenty of footballs in the absence of Orton. And that will only enhance the possibility of Quinn beating Orton out.

So having Quinn around provides not only insurance but also leverage at $700,000 in base salary -- making it a wise move, especially since the Browns basically gave away the man for whom they gave up a first-round and a second-round pick.

xzn
03-22-2010, 09:11 AM
Bowlen could have shed just as much light on the situation by stating:

Kyle Orton is a carbon-based lifeform.

FanInAZ
03-22-2010, 09:43 AM
I've criticized Jerry Jones for making declarations on behalf of his coaches for years. Granted, Bowlen is not trying to coach the coach like Jones does. However, the decision of who starts at any and all positions is McD's decision. Therefore, I believe that McD should be the only ones making announcement about it. Granted, Bowlen is only reinforcing what McD has already said. However, I believe that its not his job to say it and doing so sends a bad precedence that undermines McD's ability to show that he's in charge.

Ravage!!!
03-22-2010, 09:43 AM
Bowlen could have shed just as much light on the situation by stating:

Kyle Orton is a carbon-based lifeform.

exactly.

When reading the title and after hearing his comments earlier in the year about wanting to draft a new QB... I wondered about his tone when he said it. In my head I hear a big 'sigh' after saying "He's still our QB."

Then after the draft, he'll make the same statement once more....'cept this time with a ? at the end. "Kyle is still our QB?"

Ravage!!!
03-22-2010, 09:46 AM
However, I believe that its not his job to say it and doing so sends a bad precedence that undermines McD's ability to show that he's in charge.

His job?:confused:

I'm curious, since Bowlen put into question who's in charge (going by past experience) does this mean that we should expect to see Bowlen put on the trading block soon??? :D

GEM
03-22-2010, 09:49 AM
Ruh roh....kiss of death. Bowlen called him our guy. :lol:

T.K.O.
03-22-2010, 09:53 AM
I've criticized Jerry Jones for making declarations on behalf of his coaches for years. Granted, Bowlen is not trying to coach the coach like Jones does. However, the decision of who starts at any and all positions is McD's decision. Therefore, I believe that McD should be the only ones making announcement about it. Granted, Bowlen is only reinforcing what McD has already said. However, I believe that its not his job to say it and doing so sends a bad precedence that undermines McD's ability to show that he's in charge.

thats a sad commentary on how PC everyone has to be when talking to the media......though i doubt there are many who would "read" all that into such a nuetral comment.
i think i can see where it is possible to create drama where absolutely none exists.
as the owner of the team i think it's entirely within his rights to say.....gee the new qb has yet to take a snap in a broncos uni,so no he isnt our new starter yet:laugh:

xzn
03-22-2010, 09:53 AM
There is a noticable absence of the word STARTING in Bowlen's sentence...

TXBRONC
03-22-2010, 09:55 AM
I've criticized Jerry Jones for making declarations on behalf of his coaches for years. Granted, Bowlen is not trying to coach the coach like Jones does. However, the decision of who starts at any and all positions is McD's decision. Therefore, I believe that McD should be the only ones making announcement about it. Granted, Bowlen is only reinforcing what McD has already said. However, I believe that its not his job to say it and doing so sends a bad precedence that undermines McD's ability to show that he's in charge.

I'm not trying to be combative but I really don't see why you have a problem with this. You said it yourself what Bowlen said is no different than what McDaniels himself has said. If Bowlen had said something contrary that would be a serious problem.

SOCALORADO.
03-22-2010, 09:57 AM
QWinn will start week 1.

TXBRONC
03-22-2010, 10:01 AM
There is a noticable absence of the word STARTING in Bowlen's sentence...

True the word 'starting' is missing I think it's implied. However even with what Bowlen said that doesn't by any stretch that if McDaniels believes a better option that he can't replace him.

Slick
03-22-2010, 10:09 AM
Funny. All this confidence in Orton yet he was tendered and not offered a multi-year deal after his spectacular season.

SOCALORADO.
03-22-2010, 10:23 AM
True the word 'starting' is missing I think it's implied. However even with what Bowlen said that doesn't by any stretch that if McDaniels believes a better option that he can't replace him.

QWinn will be starting week 1.

T.K.O.
03-22-2010, 10:25 AM
Funny. All this confidence in Orton yet he was tendered and not offered a multi-year deal after his spectacular season.

well there was nothing "spectacular" about it.though he did have a better season than our former qb and showed definate signs of being more than capable of running the offense.
if you notice we did,nt offer the league's sack leader a deal yet either so i think it's pretty obvious it's the current state of the cba ,not the particular player that has teams holding back:salute:

TXBRONC
03-22-2010, 10:26 AM
Funny. All this confidence in Orton yet he was tendered and not offered a multi-year deal after his spectacular season.

You'll get the argument that it's only because there isn't CBA. In my opinion that's bull. If McDaniels was that confident then why not lock into a long term deal.

arapaho2
03-22-2010, 10:29 AM
Funny. All this confidence in Orton yet he was tendered and not offered a multi-year deal after his spectacular season.


thats because a little blurb like this one literaly means orton is the starters for good...the broncos coach and owner have the utmost confindence in him..hes our man


however merely tendering him instead of signing a multiyear deal, and trading for a young former 1st round pick..



means nothing!!!

TXBRONC
03-22-2010, 10:32 AM
well there was nothing "spectacular" about it.though he did have a better season than our former qb and showed definate signs of being more than capable of running the offense.
if you notice we did,nt offer the league's sack leader a deal yet either so i think it's pretty obvious it's the current state of the cba ,not the particular player that has teams holding back:salute:

Bull as it's been said many times over this is a quarterback driven league. If McDaniels is all the confident in Orton then he ought to sign to some kind of deal. If the CBA is such problem then why are teams signing free agents?

Slick
03-22-2010, 10:45 AM
I was being sarcastic TKO. I have to agree with Arap and Tex here. CBA in question or not, if he is truly your guy, you lock him up. As far as Doom...I 'm sure they´re talking, at least I hope they are...the question is, is he going to want Andre Ware money or will he be reasonable? IMO he needs to demonstrate he can have years like last year more than once before he gets paid like the big boys. Many players have led the league or been atop the leaders only to fade off into the oblivion.

Lonestar
03-22-2010, 10:54 AM
BQ is nothing but an option at this point he was dirt cheap to aquire.

Orton has a leg up on him in a years playing under Josh and without eh players and scheme, although him playing much the same one at ND might helped o level the field.

Let the best man win. all it can do is make the team better

I suspect the CBA issue is the reason that like 200+ players have not been resigned or signed by other teams.

No owner wants to spend money next year guaranteed IF they have only income from the TV contract and nothing else coming in the bank.

Anyone thinking other wise IMHO is not looking at it from an owners/GM perspective. You will note the total lack of owners sucking up talent that everyone expected to happen.

This is a warning shot over the bow of the players union. It is union breaking time. the owners hold all the cards.

arapaho2
03-22-2010, 11:06 AM
I was being sarcastic TKO. I have to agree with Arap and Tex here. CBA in question or not, if he is truly your guy, you lock him up. As far as Doom...I 'm sure they´re talking, at least I hope they are...the question is, is he going to want Andre Ware money or will he be reasonable? IMO he needs to demonstrate he can have years like last year more than once before he gets paid like the big boys. Many players have led the league or been atop the leaders only to fade off into the oblivion.


correct...its not like orton would demand brady, rivers or manning numbers....but a fair price , maybe a three year with a 4th year option modest contract for a average qb would suffice...orton knows this is probaly his only chance to start..hes a back up anywhere else except the browns

lord knows nobodys gonna sign him with the price a first rnd...

T.K.O.
03-22-2010, 11:13 AM
Bull as it's been said many times over this is a quarterback driven league. If McDaniels is all the confident in Orton then he ought to sign to some kind of deal. If the CBA is such problem then why are teams signing free agents?

tom brady and peyton manning are still negotiating extensions,so i guess the pats and colts dont have any confidence in them .....:laugh:
if there is no new cba by next year the owners will be forced to honor contracts without income.....you think that has nothing to do with not handing out big $$$ ?
it does....and thats abvious for every team in the league.
i'm not saying they would be pffering orton a 5 year 50 mil deal.but it would make sense to sign him for a couple more years at a reasonable price.
this is also why guys like doom ,marshall and kuper are'nt being courted by 10 teams....owners are putting the heat on the union while they have time (the offseason) the closer we get to the 2011 season the more power the players will have. the owners have mega-millions on the line and most players can afford a year off if they budget this season and get all they can now.
its a head game....nothing more

TXBRONC
03-22-2010, 11:21 AM
correct...its not like orton would demand brady, rivers or manning numbers....but a fair price , maybe a three year with a 4th year option modest contract for a average qb would suffice...orton knows this is probaly his only chance to start..hes a back up anywhere else except the browns

lord knows nobodys gonna sign him with the price a first rnd...

It doesn't hold water to say that not having CBA is reasoning for not signing Orton to deal. The volume of free agent signing has slowed but has stopped completely. Didn't Denver just sign a 34 year old nose tackle with recent history health problems?

CoachChaz
03-22-2010, 11:24 AM
Kind of like how Dallas has jumped all over signing Miles Austin? The Dolphins with Ronnie Brown? Colts with Antoine Bethea? Vikes with Ray Edwards? Saints with Jahri Evans? etc.

Let's not pretend that the Broncos RFA's are the only upper-tier players being "neglected" by their teams ownership when it comes to contract extensions right now.

Northman
03-22-2010, 11:28 AM
Uh oh, Orton will be dumped now that Bowlen has proclaimed it. lmao

TXBRONC
03-22-2010, 11:47 AM
tom brady and peyton manning are still negotiating extensions,so i guess the pats and colts dont have any confidence in them .....:laugh:
if there is no new cba by next year the owners will be forced to honor contracts without income.....you think that has nothing to do with not handing out big $$$ ?
it does....and thats abvious for every team in the league.
i'm not saying they would be pffering orton a 5 year 50 mil deal.but it would make sense to sign him for a couple more years at a reasonable price.
this is also why guys like doom ,marshall and kuper are'nt being courted by 10 teams....owners are putting the heat on the union while they have time (the offseason) the closer we get to the 2011 season the more power the players will have. the owners have mega-millions on the line and most players can afford a year off if they budget this season and get all they can now.
its a head game....nothing more

You're trying to compare Brady and Manning who are contract negotiations with their respective? :lol: LMAO

Putting 1st round and 1st and 3rd round tenders would cause a lot potential suitors to back off EVEN with a CBA.

You're trying to say that teams don't want to spend money yet we just sign a 34 year-old nose tackle? Quarterback is supposedly the most important postion yet rather than going ahead and giving Orton a mid range contract McDaniels tender an offer for him that obviously Denver wont get it even with CBA. That makes no sense at all.

TXBRONC
03-22-2010, 11:53 AM
Kind of like how Dallas has jumped all over signing Miles Austin? The Dolphins with Ronnie Brown? Colts with Antoine Bethea? Vikes with Ray Edwards? Saints with Jahri Evans? etc.

Let's not pretend that the Broncos RFA's are the only upper-tier players being "neglected" by their teams ownership when it comes to contract extensions right now.

Well let's also not pretend that anyone of those other players you mention is a starting quarterback. Or did you not realize that?

CoachChaz
03-22-2010, 12:03 PM
Well let's also not pretend that anyone of those other players you mention is starting quarterback. Or did you not realize that?

if it were an elite QB, then I could see the argument. Everyone...including the Denver brass...knows that Orton isnt an elite QB. Just like Cutler has yet to prove he's an elite QB. Orton and the deal with Chicago was the best deal we were offered at the time. That doesnt mean that McD was drooling over landing Orton. but we still have to tender him and retain him until a better option is in the system. Is it Quinn? Who knows? But if Orton isnt seen as the long term answer, then not signing him long term is smart.

But...even if he were an elite player, there is no guarantee Denver or any other team would sign him long term with the current state of the NFL and the CBA.

topscribe
03-22-2010, 12:06 PM
I've criticized Jerry Jones for making declarations on behalf of his coaches for years. Granted, Bowlen is not trying to coach the coach like Jones does. However, the decision of who starts at any and all positions is McD's decision. Therefore, I believe that McD should be the only ones making announcement about it. Granted, Bowlen is only reinforcing what McD has already said. However, I believe that its not his job to say it and doing so sends a bad precedence that undermines McD's ability to show that he's in charge.

So you don't think Mr. Bowlen is simply parroting McDaniels' standpoint? In fact,
that is essentially what McDaniels himself has said, so Mr. Bowlen isn't
undermining his coach, but rather reinforcing him . . .

-----

topscribe
03-22-2010, 12:11 PM
if it were an elite QB, then I could see the argument. Everyone...including the Denver brass...knows that Orton isnt an elite QB. Just like Cutler has yet to prove he's an elite QB. Orton and the deal with Chicago was the best deal we were offered at the time. That doesnt mean that McD was drooling over landing Orton. but we still have to tender him and retain him until a better option is in the system. Is it Quinn? Who knows? But if Orton isnt seen as the long term answer, then not signing him long term is smart.

But...even if he were an elite player, there is no guarantee Denver or any other team would sign him long term with the current state of the NFL and the CBA.

Orton isn't yet an "elite" QB, and it is true he may never be. But who are we, or
who is anybody, to say he will never be? I would like to see him play, for the
first time, out from under the handicaps of injuries, new schemes, and
collapsing of supporting casts.

I do believe most of that will happen this year, so let's give him at least that
before we decide his future for him . . .

-----

TXBRONC
03-22-2010, 12:15 PM
if it were an elite QB, then I could see the argument. Everyone...including the Denver brass...knows that Orton isnt an elite QB. Just like Cutler has yet to prove he's an elite QB. Orton and the deal with Chicago was the best deal we were offered at the time. That doesnt mean that McD was drooling over landing Orton. but we still have to tender him and retain him until a better option is in the system. Is it Quinn? Who knows? But if Orton isnt seen as the long term answer, then not signing him long term is smart.

But...even if he were an elite player, there is no guarantee Denver or any other team would sign him long term with the current state of the NFL and the CBA.

I'm not saying sign him long term. My point all along has been if McDaniels thought Orton was a long term answer he would have already given him contract. I don't see not having CBA as the reason that Orton doesn't have new contract.

topscribe
03-22-2010, 01:11 PM
I'm not saying sign him long term. My point all along has been if McDaniels thought Orton was a long term answer he would have already given him contract. I don't see not having CBA as the reason that Orton doesn't have new contract.

I would think McDaniels is like every other reasonable person: He wants to see
one more year out of Orton because of all the extenuating circumstances Orton
had to go through. If I were he, anyway, I believe I would feel I haven't seen
enough to make a final judgment as to whether Orton is the answer . . .

-----

CoachChaz
03-22-2010, 03:47 PM
I'm not saying sign him long term. My point all along has been if McDaniels thought Orton was a long term answer he would have already given him contract. I don't see not having CBA as the reason that Orton doesn't have new contract.

Maybe...maybe not. Yes, if he was a top 5 QB in the NFL, he would likely have the contract. But even if he threw for 4000 yards and 40 TD's last year...I'm not so sure he'd be given the big contract just yet with the current CBA arrangement.

BigBroncLove
03-22-2010, 04:16 PM
I would think McDaniels is like every other reasonable person: He wants to see
one more year out of Orton because of all the extenuating circumstances Orton
had to go through. If I were he, anyway, I believe I would feel I haven't seen
enough to make a final judgment as to whether Orton is the answer . . .

-----

I agree completely. It's nice to see the Broncos doing business based on fact and not potential but simply because they are doing it that way doesn't mean they don't think Orton has the potential to be the answer to the ever looming QB question in Denver. He did overcome a lot last year, all while making good strides forward. I don't think anyone was overwhelmed by those strides, he still has a lot of room to develop into that answer. Overall though Orton made the case for another year and another chance... like you said whether he answers is up in the air.

T.K.O.
03-22-2010, 05:08 PM
I agree completely. It's nice to see the Broncos doing business based on fact and not potential but simply because they are doing it that way doesn't mean they don't think Orton has the potential to be the answer to the ever looming QB question in Denver. He did overcome a lot last year, all while making good strides forward. I don't think anyone was overwhelmed by those strides, he still has a lot of room to develop into that answer. Overall though Orton made the case for another year and another chance... like you said whether he answers is up in the air.

exactly right ! and why would anyone be in a hurry to give him a contract when they have already covered their bases with the 1st rnd tender and if need be they can franchise him next year . so they have his services for 2 years if they want him,or can groom quinn a year and see if he "comes alive" in the system.
there is no need to give out a contract at this point,especially when they will need to sign at least a #11 pick and maybe another 1st.
it would go a long way in proving to marshall that we want him in denver to extend his contract instead of a qb that has been with the team 1 year

arapaho2
03-22-2010, 05:28 PM
It doesn't hold water to say that not having CBA is reasoning for not signing Orton to deal. The volume of free agent signing has slowed but has stopped completely. Didn't Denver just sign a 34 year old nose tackle with recent history health problems?


exactly

Lancane
03-22-2010, 07:16 PM
Orton isn't yet an "elite" QB, and it is true he may never be. But who are we, or
who is anybody, to say he will never be? I would like to see him play, for the
first time, out from under the handicaps of injuries, new schemes, and
collapsing of supporting casts.

I do believe most of that will happen this year, so let's give him at least that
before we decide his future for him . . .

-----


Orton looked a little above average in a offensive system that makes many quarterbacks look much better then they are. As far as talent and ability, Orton will never reach the status of elite, the only elite quarterback who has been able to really succeed at the pro level in a spread offense is Tom Brady, all the others who have tried looked great at times but did nothing more then run the system. Brady is the first to take the system and use it, no one can say with a straight face that Brady is not elite. Even Kurt Warner did well, but had his fair share of issues in the system...look at Cassell, we saw him without the spread in K.C. this past year and he looked average, Orton was average in Chicago.

People tend to believe that if they wear the Broncos' uniform they will be elite or better then what they seem; Van Pelt, Griese, Lewis, Jackson, Mauck, Buerline, Simms and so on and so forth. That is homerism of the most profound kind, the same with our receivers, offensive lineman and the list continues. Orton in my honest opinion will never be more then a journeyman level quarterback, a stop gap for teams till they eventually get someone better. And I think McDaniels plans on betting his career on him, which is fine with me...we will just have to rebuild in another three years.

TXBRONC
03-22-2010, 08:25 PM
Orton looked a little above average in a offensive system that makes many quarterbacks look much better then they are. As far as talent and ability, Orton will never reach the status of elite, the only elite quarterback who has been able to really succeed at the pro level in a spread offense is Tom Brady, all the others who have tried looked great at times but did nothing more then run the system. Brady is the first to take the system and use it, no one can say with a straight face that Brady is not elite. Even Kurt Warner did well, but had his fair share of issues in the system...look at Cassell, we saw him without the spread in K.C. this past year and he looked average, Orton was average in Chicago.

People tend to believe that if they wear the Broncos' uniform they will be elite or better then what they seem; Van Pelt, Griese, Lewis, Jackson, Mauck, Buerline, Simms and so on and so forth. That is homerism of the most profound kind, the same with our receivers, offensive lineman and the list continues. Orton in my honest opinion will never be more then a journeyman level quarterback, a stop gap for teams till they eventually get someone better. And I think McDaniels plans on betting his career on him, which is fine with me...we will just have to rebuild in another three years.

I agree with you that Orton is a journeyman quarterback. He plays not to make mistakes. That can work but from what I seen that means you have to have a kick ass defense and solid special teams.

From what I've heard Hailey's offense is a version of the spread and one the reasons that the Chiefs traded for Cassel.

Maybe you're right that McDaniels is betting his career on Orton but as of right now he hasn't given him a new contract so I think McDaniels isn't sold on Orton as long term solution.

T.K.O.
03-22-2010, 08:33 PM
And I think McDaniels plans on betting his career on him, which is fine with me...we will just have to rebuild in another three years.

you also said "You nailed it on the head in my opinion... Everyone keeps going on about how well Orton did, and that the team wanted to keep him. But I do not buy that for a minute, why not sign him to a short-term deal if that was so, why waste a player and picks for a backup quarterback. Hillis and those picks could have netted the team an extra pick this year, at least I believe that to be true. We saw the tension and arguments between Orton and McDaniels all last season on the sidelines. According to certain media we also have a good inclination that Quinn was someone Josh wanted to get last year to run his offense. "

so which is it ?
i personally don't think mcD will "bet his career" on the best available option he had in a trade for a qb who demanded a trade (repeatedly).
he has done the best he could with the options available last year and should be smart enough to put the best qb in when the time comes...be it orton,quinn....lefevour/mccoy or even brandstater.
it seems some people actually want mcD to fail so they can say "i told you so"
i just want the broncos to get to mf playoffs for a change and i think mcD proved in his 1st year that he can get us just as close with orton than shanny could with other qb's not named elway.
so he has my vote to make the decisions and get the job done.....for at least 2 more years

Lancane
03-22-2010, 08:45 PM
I agree with you that Orton is a journeyman quarterback. He plays not to make mistakes. That can work but from what I seen that means you have to have a kick ass defense and solid special teams.

From what I've heard Hailey's offense is a version of the spread and one the reasons that the Chiefs traded for Cassel.

Maybe you're right that McDaniels is betting his career on Orton but as of right now he hasn't given him a new contract so I think McDaniels isn't sold on Orton as long term solution.

Yep, it would be a lot like how Dilfer would not have gotten a ring without the vaunted Baltimore defense. And you are correct, Hailey's offense is a version of the Pro-Spread, that is why K.C. decided to hire Weis who is considered by many to be the master of the spread offense.

And as for McDaniels, who knows...but I really do not like the way he and Bowlen are trying to sell Orton as the leader and quarterback of this team. I feel they may start him even if there is a better option. One of my friends believes that the whole quarterback thing is a farse, that they are hoping that Clausen falls to them at 11. Could be I suppose, but fact remains that so far McDaniels his lies and actions are far from promising. And if he does trade Marshall, which is very likely at this point to happen, then McDaniels will be shown for what he is, a coach who looked better then he is in New England, and if he fields a worse offense and a defense comparative to last years unit, he may not make it to see year three of his contract.

Lancane
03-22-2010, 08:50 PM
you also said "You nailed it on the head in my opinion... Everyone keeps going on about how well Orton did, and that the team wanted to keep him. But I do not buy that for a minute, why not sign him to a short-term deal if that was so, why waste a player and picks for a backup quarterback. Hillis and those picks could have netted the team an extra pick this year, at least I believe that to be true. We saw the tension and arguments between Orton and McDaniels all last season on the sidelines. According to certain media we also have a good inclination that Quinn was someone Josh wanted to get last year to run his offense. "

so which is it ?
i personally don't think mcD will "bet his career" on the best available option he had in a trade for a qb who demanded a trade (repeatedly).
he has done the best he could with the options available last year and should be smart enough to put the best qb in when the time comes...be it orton,quinn....lefevour/mccoy or even brandstater.
it seems some people actually want mcD to fail so they can say "i told you so"
i just want the broncos to get to mf playoffs for a change and i think mcD proved in his 1st year that he can get us just as close with orton than shanny could with other qb's not named elway.
so he has my vote to make the decisions and get the job done.....for at least 2 more years

That was before Bowlen began spewing that Orton is the man, I thought that maybe McDaniels was just using the media to not overhype what will be a quarterback controversy come Pre-Season, but with Bowlen acting like a whipped dog and stating much the same, it reminds me of how Bowlen went along with some of Shanahan's more questionable decisions...remember those?

Of course, this could all be smoke and mirrors, or at least I hope as a fan that is so. I mean after all when has either Bowlen or McDaniels held true to their words recently. But right now...hell I am not to sure what to believe.

rcsodak
03-22-2010, 08:53 PM
You'll get the argument that it's only because there isn't CBA. In my opinion that's bull. If McDaniels was that confident then why not lock into a long term deal.

So by your logic, tx, Doom is....doomed? :confused:

rcsodak
03-22-2010, 09:02 PM
I'm not saying sign him long term. My point all along has been if McDaniels thought Orton was a long term answer he would have already given him contract. I don't see not having CBA as the reason that Orton doesn't have new contract.

He's been given a tender, tx. He's also been gone all last week to the players meetings.
You don't think the team is in dire need of signing Kuper? Doom? No, they're not qb's, but they're STILL important to the team's success.

Quit being so derisive. Orton IS the starting qb for the 2010 Denver Broncos whether you like it or not. :rolleyes:

topscribe
03-22-2010, 09:02 PM
That was before Bowlen began spewing that Orton is the man, I thought that maybe McDaniels was just using the media to not overhype what will be a quarterback controversy come Pre-Season, but with Bowlen acting like a whipped dog and stating much the same, it reminds me of how Bowlen went along with some of Shanahan's more questionable decisions...remember those?

Of course, this could all be smoke and mirrors, or at least I hope as a fan that is so. I mean after all when has either Bowlen or McDaniels held true to their words recently. But right now...hell I am not to sure what to believe.

Maybe Mr. Bowlen sees what some of the more perspicacious of us see: that
Orton has done a decent job despite an overload of obstacles and handicaps he
has faced, and that he wants to see the real Orton, an Orton free of injury, an
Orton not involved in an orientation process to a radically different system, an
Orton that is dealing with a better O-line, running game, and defense.

Maybe Mr. Bowlen simply agrees with McDaniels . . .

-----

Lancane
03-22-2010, 09:09 PM
Maybe Mr. Bowlen sees what some of the more perspicacious of us see: that
Orton has done a decent job despite an overload of obstacles and handicaps he
has faced, and that he wants to see the real Orton, an Orton free of injury, an
Orton not involved in an orientation process to a radically different system, an
Orton that is dealing with a better O-line, running game, and defense.

Maybe Mr. Bowlen simply agrees with McDaniels . . .

-----

Oh, I'm sure he agrees, after all watching a first time head coach literally take apart one of the league's best offenses and replace it with a very dim shadow of it's former self should be what every owner in the NFL wants. Granted the defense has improved, but there is a lot more to the game then defense, that might be why Baltimore finally decided it needed a franchise quarterback...just maybe.

;)

topscribe
03-22-2010, 09:14 PM
Oh, I'm sure he agrees, after all watching a first time head coach literally take apart one of the league's best offenses and replace it with a very dim shadow of it's former self should be what every owner in the NFL wants. Granted the defense has improved, but there is a lot more to the game then defense, that might be why Baltimore finally decided it needed a franchise quarterback...just maybe.

;)

I know you are a former coach, but you are disagreeing with the entire FO.

The FO is who witnessed Orton's daily performances. I'm gravitating toward them . . .

-----

Lancane
03-22-2010, 09:29 PM
I know you are a former coach, but you are disagreeing with the entire FO.

The FO is who witnessed Orton's daily performances. I'm gravitating toward them . . .

-----

You know me...I always tell people to believe what they want. I don't want people to agree or disagree with me, that is their choice and I simply state my own formed opinions on matters.

As far as the front office, well...let's just say I believe that they have become dunkards on the spiked koolaid instead of looking at the dealings of the team from a objective point of view. McDaniels lies thereby helping to create one of the biggest controversial dealings in recent league history in regards to Cutler. He completely turns out one of the league's best offenses and then outs a receiver for whom if not for he would have likely had a far worse season. And instead of moving to fix it or the front office doing so they continue to back him and not leash him. By all means believe in the front office, if that is what you wish to do...as for me, I believe they still have a hangover from the koolaid and have not realized that it may be to late to fix what they allowed him to break.

topscribe
03-23-2010, 12:24 AM
You know me...I always tell people to believe what they want. I don't want people to agree or disagree with me, that is their choice and I simply state my own formed opinions on matters.

As far as the front office, well...let's just say I believe that they have become dunkards on the spiked koolaid instead of looking at the dealings of the team from a objective point of view. McDaniels lies thereby helping to create one of the biggest controversial dealings in recent league history in regards to Cutler. He completely turns out one of the league's best offenses and then outs a receiver for whom if not for he would have likely had a far worse season. And instead of moving to fix it or the front office doing so they continue to back him and not leash him. By all means believe in the front office, if that is what you wish to do...as for me, I believe they still have a hangover from the koolaid and have not realized that it may be to late to fix what they allowed him to break.

Well, Cane, that was . . . um . . . very . . . um . . . interesting. :D

-----

Lancane
03-23-2010, 12:55 AM
Well, Cane, that was . . . um . . . very . . . um . . . interesting. :D

-----

Of course it was, I wrote the damn thing...now drink a beer and shussshhhhh...:laugh:








;)

BigBroncLove
03-23-2010, 01:45 AM
You know me...I always tell people to believe what they want. I don't want people to agree or disagree with me, that is their choice and I simply state my own formed opinions on matters.

As far as the front office, well...let's just say I believe that they have become dunkards on the spiked koolaid instead of looking at the dealings of the team from a objective point of view. McDaniels lies thereby helping to create one of the biggest controversial dealings in recent league history in regards to Cutler. He completely turns out one of the league's best offenses and then outs a receiver for whom if not for he would have likely had a far worse season. And instead of moving to fix it or the front office doing so they continue to back him and not leash him. By all means believe in the front office, if that is what you wish to do...as for me, I believe they still have a hangover from the koolaid and have not realized that it may be to late to fix what they allowed him to break.

One little thing in defense of the FO's handling of the Marshall situation...


The Broncos did offer Marshall a multiyear contract last summer worth approximately $9.5 million a season, according to two NFL sources.


http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14523017#ixzz0iymIIxuS
(its at the bottom of the page)

So it's not like we didn't offer him something worthwhile, (honestly I think thats a hell of deal depending on the length of the contract) and his overall attitude started when McDaniels and Cutler broke and Jay went his way. I'm not saying McD's conduct has been above reproach when it comes to Marshall, but I certainly think Marshall been as difficult if not more so.

As for the Orton situation and the comments thus far I don't really know what else Bowlen or McDaniels could say. Right now they don't have anyone else but Quinn and he certainly isn't the guy you want to turn to without knowing exactly what he brings to the table with this organization and system. Unless we all want to watch another McJay-gate to go down but with Orton this time I don't think the Bronco organization (owner and coach alike) has any other choice but to say what has been said. What they really think may well differ but we cant know until their actions can speak for them.

Lancane
03-23-2010, 01:58 AM
One little thing in defense of the FO's handling of the Marshall situation...




http://www.denverpost.com/premium/broncos/ci_14523017#ixzz0iymIIxuS
(its at the bottom of the page)

So it's not like we didn't offer him something worthwhile, (honestly I think thats a hell of deal depending on the length of the contract) and his overall attitude started when McDaniels and Cutler broke and Jay went his way. I'm not saying McD's conduct has been above reproach when it comes to Marshall, but I certainly think Marshall been as difficult if not more so.

As for the Orton situation and the comments thus far I don't really know what else Bowlen or McDaniels could say. Right now they don't have anyone else but Quinn and he certainly isn't the guy you want to turn to without knowing exactly what he brings to the table with this organization and system. Unless we all want to watch another McJay-gate to go down but with Orton this time I don't think the Bronco organization (owner and coach alike) has any other choice but to say what has been said. What they really think may well differ but we cant know until their actions can speak for them.

As for the Marshall B.S. and that is what it is, if people actually read on his ex, then you find a woman with a very shady character and the charges against him were dropped. Granted his stunt on the practice field was out of line, but it's not that big of a deal, I've heard of much worse. As to the contract, that in itself is flat out stupidity, he was offered nothing more then what is equal to an extension, not a new contract. They did not want to pay upfront money of any sort, no real signing bonus either. I would have refused to accept the damn thing as well if I was him.

Now regarding Orton, I'm not sure what to believe...it's not like our front office or coaching staff are the most honest bunch. McDaniels has been caught in enough half-truths and lies that it's hard for anyone...give some homeristic fans and Klis, to actually believe him. I was one of those that wanted to draft a quarterback this year...but I don't believe that he plans to or at least not one that could actually challenge him to be the face of the team.

BigBroncLove
03-23-2010, 02:04 AM
As for the Marshall B.S. and that is what it is, if people actually read on his ex, then you find a woman with a very shady character and the charges against him were dropped. Granted his stunt on the practice field was out of line, but it's not that big of a deal, I've heard of much worse. As to the contract, that in itself is flat out stupidity, he was offered nothing more then what is equal to an extension, not a new contract. They did not want to pay upfront money of any sort, no real signing bonus either. I would have refused to accept the damn thing as well if I was him.

Now regarding Orton, I'm not sure what to believe...it's not like our front office or coaching staff are the most honest bunch. McDaniels has been caught in enough half-truths and lies that it's hard for anyone...give some homeristic fans and Klis, to actually believe him. I was one of those that wanted to draft a quarterback this year...but I don't believe that he plans to or at least not one that could actually challenge him to be the face of the team.

The exclusion of upfront money was due to the fact that he is a slip up away from a lengthy suspension. Regardless of the facts of his last case (which I don't know how that came up cause I didn't mention it nor meant to imply it) he has enough strikes on his record for Goddell to take a very hard line on any next problem he incurs in the next few years. I agree it should have had money up front. However I don't think Marshall's conduct is nearly so spotless as you imply, whether its meant or not.

As for Klis, not a fan, nor will I ever be. Simply because the quote came from his story means nothing other than that was the originating journalism source.

Neither did I defend any of the other half truths or flat out lies given by the Broncos FO. Such as stating wanting to get Hillis more involved in the offense in 2010 and then trading him weeks after. I'm saying in the case of Orton theres no other choice for them but to back him at the moment.

Lancane
03-23-2010, 02:12 AM
The exclusion of upfront money was due to the fact that he is a slip up away from a lengthy suspension. Regardless of the facts of his last case (which I don't know how that came up cause I didn't mention it nor meant to imply it) he has enough strikes on his record for Goddell to take a very hard line on any next problem he incurs in the next few years. I agree it should have had money up front. However I don't think Marshall's conduct is nearly so spotless as you imply, whether its meant or not.

As for Klis, not a fan, nor will I ever be. Simply because the quote came from his story means nothing other than that was the originating journalism source.

Neither did I defend any of the other half truths or flat out lies given by the Broncos FO. Such as stating wanting to get Hillis more involved in the offense in 2010 and then trading him weeks after. I'm saying in the case of Orton theres no other choice for them but to back him at the moment.

I can understand hesitating to sign Marshall when he is close to being suspended, but as some have said he might just shut up and play if he was paid, I believe that. But the fact is that it may be too damn late to bridge the gap, especially with a liar for a coach, an owner who seems to really be going senile and the fact that he may want out. If I was McDaniels I would have made an effort, and not a little one to fix my mess, try and figure out what Marshall wants or made a better effort to find him a new home.

Not sure I buy into backing Orton, but I can see your point. I guess I'm frustrated that we may be stuck with his ass for another year, if not longer.

BigBroncLove
03-23-2010, 02:16 AM
I can understand hesitating to sign Marshall when he is close to being suspended, but as some have said he might just shut up and play if he was paid, I believe that. But the fact is that it may be too damn late to bridge the gap, especially with a liar for a coach, an owner who seems to really be going senile and the fact that he may want out. If I was McDaniels I would have made an effort, and not a little one to fix my mess, try and figure out what Marshall wants or made a better effort to find him a new home.

Not sure I buy into backing Orton, but I can see your point. I guess I'm frustrated that we may be stuck with his ass for another year, if not longer.

Understood. I agree... well to a degree. My biggest gripe on Orton is his staring down of his first receiver and being very slow through his progression on the field. People point to Gaffney's great game or Marshall's record setting 21 receptions as a strong day for Orton. I see that more of his in ability to see the full field clearly. Which is also why I think Royal remained pretty silent through the year because he was used largely as a decoy and was a check down at best through most plays.

None the less... you work with what your given to look to the new year with some degree of optimism... at least for me. Us fans especially.... :(

WARHORSE
03-23-2010, 02:19 AM
Why would the teams feel forced to sign the big named players when that leverages the union?


There are five players on our team who would be getting some very big money if not for the current CBA situation.

We would be able to franchise only one, so in effect, unless we gave up a big contract, we would lose the players and get nothing except compensatory picks in return.

That being the case, I believe at least two of these guys would have been signed to longer deals LAST year.

Doom could have been had at a great price.
Kuper as well.
Scheffler......who cares.

But since the owners had nothing to fear KNOWING they were opting out, they have come to a point of benefit for themselves in tendering players for minimal amounts of money compared to what they would have received in an open free agent market, and they can do nothing except retire, or play at the tender.


The ball is in the owners court.

If I were Bowlen and Josh, Id be waiting for all these players to come to me with decent contract proposals. I wouldnt even make an offer.

My offer would be:"There are larger things at stake right now not only for the Broncos, but for the entire league. You should be talking to your union rep. My hands are tied. This is a business, and Im not signing you to something thats going to bite me in the arse later."

That has to be frustrating for a player to hear that.

So what are the options for the players like Orton, Doom, Kupes, and BM??

Unless another team give up picks and a contract......nothing.


....EXCEPT........bring an offer to the table that gets Bowlen to sign on the dotted line.

You will not get an inflated payday, but what you CAN get is fair market value perhaps if the contract is worded to protect both your interests and Bowlens.

BigBroncLove
03-23-2010, 02:29 AM
Why would the teams feel forced to sign the big named players when that leverages the union?


There are five players on our team who would be getting some very big money if not for the current CBA situation.

We would be able to franchise only one, so in effect, unless we gave up a big contract, we would lose the players and get nothing except compensatory picks in return.

That being the case, I believe at least two of these guys would have been signed to longer deals LAST year.

Doom could have been had at a great price.
Kuper as well.
Scheffler......who cares.

But since the owners had nothing to fear KNOWING they were opting out, they have come to a point of benefit for themselves in tendering players for minimal amounts of money compared to what they would have received in an open free agent market, and they can do nothing except retire, or play at the tender.


The ball is in the owners court.

If I were Bowlen and Josh, Id be waiting for all these players to come to me with decent contract proposals. I wouldnt even make an offer.

My offer would be:"There are larger things at stake right now not only for the Broncos, but for the entire league. You should be talking to your union rep. My hands are tied. This is a business, and Im not signing you to something thats going to bite me in the arse later."

That has to be frustrating for a player to hear that.

So what are the options for the players like Orton, Doom, Kupes, and BM??

Unless another team give up picks and a contract......nothing.


....EXCEPT........bring an offer to the table that gets Bowlen to sign on the dotted line.

You will not get an inflated payday, but what you CAN get is fair market value perhaps if the contract is worded to protect both your interests and Bowlens.

Don't forget Pat Bowlen and Jerry Richardson are the lead negotiators (and Bowlen the president of the owners association) for the CBA...

CoachChaz
03-23-2010, 07:14 AM
I thought we already decided that Denver's RFA's are the only ones in the NFL that havent been given lengthy offers and that the Broncos were the clowns of the NFL for not throwing truckloads of cash at them.

T.K.O.
03-23-2010, 10:39 AM
owners around the league are using the 200+ rfa's as leverage.sure some ufa's are being signed and a few(very few) rfa's are signing their tenders and then traded. but this is a "stand off" and its just beginning.
i said a couple months ago this year would likely be unparralled in camp hold outs etc... we aint seen nothin' yet !

here is a qoute from the union chief "This is a complex game that consists of equal parts chess and chicken. Smith currently is lining up the pieces for an eventual move based on a contention that the teams have implicitly agreed to enhance their 2011 lockout fund by not spending as much money in 2010 on free agents as they could, or arguably should."

Lonestar
03-23-2010, 11:35 AM
The owners know they have to change the way they were doing business.

Giving ludicrious amounts of money to un proven players is nuts.

Giving 60% of your revenue to the players is also nuts.

Most businesses. Do allocated about 54-56% of their money to Salaries that also include all employees as well as benifits and taxes for same. Thus giving 60% for just the players. Is crazy.

Right now 200+ RFA this year and probably another 200+ for next year equate a lot of "voters" to get a reduced CBA done.

The owners hold all the cards as worst case they still get paid by their TV contracts even if they have a lockout.

Personally I think playing another year with 400 or so RFA and the reduced salalries that would entail, would be the way I would go.


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