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broncobryce
03-21-2010, 10:37 AM
Readers talk and columnist Mark Kiszla responds
By Mark Kiszla
The Denver Post

Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_14720513#ixzz0ipGfwglz


Hillis is a nice guy, but not worthy of carrying the rock.

"I consider myself at the top of the list of Peyton Hillis fans and therefore speak for many in letting you know how much we resent your comment: 'It was probably healthier for all concerned if Hillis was allowed to seek an NFL coach as gaga about his potential as Colorado fanatics who worshipped every inch of the 397 yards gained on the ground by Hillis during his brief Denver career.' You should be ashamed of yourself, Mr. Kiszla. However, something tells me you are not. Even when Correll Buckhalter and "His Majesty" Knowshon Moreno were struggling, injured or too tired, your egotistical coach "Joshie" McDaniels refused to give Hillis a chance. I, for one, hope and pray Hillis kicks your tails in Denver for the next 10 years."

Mike, Damascus, Ark.

Kiz: Hillis is one righteous dude. Can't think of anybody I would rather have as my wing man when hunting wild boar. But carrying the rock in an NFL game? Not so much. Seldom, if ever, in the history of the Broncos has a player's popularity so outstripped his actual achievements. Even Mike Haffner (remember the 1960s?) scored more touchdowns for Denver than Hillis ever did, for crying out loud.

Kiz, get off Quinn bandwagon.

"Regarding your recent column insinuating new quarterback Brady Quinn would lead the Broncos to the Super Bowl, I would like to ask you to refrain from writing when intoxicated. I remember when I would text friends and solve the world's problems after a night of drinking. It was ugly and very embarrassing."

Noel, Dallas

Kiz: Hey, Noel. Think maybe I've seen some of your stuff on textsfromlastnight.com. There was a sports lover and social reformer from area code 214 who wrote: "Would it be rude to tell a homeless man that he should sell the LeBron jersey and brand-new Nikes he's wearing if
Peyton Hillis scored only one touchdown in two seasons for the Broncos. (John Leyba, The Denver Post )
he's really that hungry?" Was that you?

Quinn, Broncos a perfect fit.

"Quinn will be awesome for the Broncos. I have a sixth sense about these things. I told everyone we'd be in the dumps after Jake Plummer left Denver. And see what happened? The Broncos fell apart after they chased Jake, and even Mike Shanahan got canned as coach. Then I said Jay Cutler was a bust and phony crybaby. And see what happened? It turned out to be true, as well. Now my gut is telling me: 'Yeah! Quinn is coming to Denver!' He is cute, like Jake was. And he is a winner, like Jake was."

Monica, Denver

Kiz: It might take a few months for him to supplant Kyle Orton on the depth chart, but even as we speak, there are adolescent girls already taping photos of Quinn over images of "Twilight" actor Robert Pattinson on bedroom walls throughout Broncos Nation.

Fleeing the "Gray" for Colorado.

The missus and I are high-tailing it out of Ohio after spending another winter here, one that just won't completely shake off the tree. Our destination? Denver. I can't tell you how glad I am Quinn is paving the way to Colorado for us and how easy it will be to convert our allegiance."

Mike, Avon Lake, Ohio

Kiz: There are many lucky fools (myself included) who have escaped winters of lake-effect snow for colorful Colorado. And we all know the answer to this question: What four-letter word do Midwesterner use to describe the period from Halloween to Easter? Gray.

Holmgren rode coattails of QB legends.

Not very likely that Broncos coach McDaniels has success with a quarterback that new Browns president Mike Holmgren deemed to get rid of.

Chris, Louisville, Ky.

Kiz: Holmgren's reputation was built by completing the following sentence. "Way to go . . . A) Joe Montana!; B) Steve Young!; or C) Brett Favre!" Who couldn't do that? Holmgren has made the easiest money since the Pips danced in the reflected glory of Gladys Knight singing "Midnight Train to Georgia." Woo-woo. Beats working.

Read more: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_14720513#ixzz0ipGF6woI

broncobryce
03-21-2010, 10:41 AM
I liked Hillis and thought he deserved a chance. I think fans loved how physical of a runner he was.

HORSEPOWER 56
03-21-2010, 10:53 AM
I liked Hillis and thought he deserved a chance. I think fans loved how physical of a runner he was.

I don't think there are many of us who didn't, bryce. I guess it's just human nature but it's just so sad that folks feel the need to get their last minute jabs in when someone leaves the Broncos. Beloved or not, they obviously were "overrated" or "sucked" when it's time for them to move on. Nobody is ever as "good" anywhere else and they are now the enemy for some reason.

No all feel this way, but Geez, there were guys taking pot shots at Dennison when he left and Mike Nolan who all he ever did for us is take our defense from 29th to 7th. No matter what, there always seems to be a "good riddance" crowd.

atwater27
03-21-2010, 11:39 AM
Funny how the article's title was worded. Hillis Popularity doesn't match his achievement.

I didn't know there was a popularity police.

And as far as his achievement goes, it is pretty simple. When given the chance, he shines. He achieved when given the chance. Just another example of the hate culture the broncos fans are engaging in with former players.

atwater27
03-21-2010, 11:39 AM
I don't think there are many of us who didn't, bryce. I guess it's just human nature but it's just so sad that folks feel the need to get their last minute jabs in when someone leaves the Broncos. Beloved or not, they obviously were "overrated" or "sucked" when it's time for them to move on. Nobody is ever as "good" anywhere else and they are now the enemy for some reason.

No all feel this way, but Geez, there were guys taking pot shots at Dennison when he left and Mike Nolan who all he ever did for us is take our defense from 29th to 7th. No matter what, there always seems to be a "good riddance" crowd.

It is ******* ridiculous, idn't it?

Dean
03-21-2010, 11:58 AM
Here is what I saw.


http://broncos.fandome.com/video/114562/Best-of-Peyton-Hillis-2008-Highlights/


enlighten me. Tell me how he isn't a RB and didn't deserve a chance even when he and Knowshon were the only two healthy backs and Knowshon was gassed. I would be interested in the explaination.

Dreadnought
03-21-2010, 01:16 PM
Here is what I saw.


http://broncos.fandome.com/video/114562/Best-of-Peyton-Hillis-2008-Highlights/


enlighten me. Tell me how he isn't a RB and didn't deserve a chance even when he and Knowshon were the only two healthy backs and Knowshon was gassed. I would be interested in the explaination.

My explanation is that Kiszla was clearly dropped on his head as an infant, and is of sub-normal intelligence now :D


I don't think there are many of us who didn't, bryce. I guess it's just human nature but it's just so sad that folks feel the need to get their last minute jabs in when someone leaves the Broncos. Beloved or not, they obviously were "overrated" or "sucked" when it's time for them to move on. Nobody is ever as "good" anywhere else and they are now the enemy for some reason.

No all feel this way, but Geez, there were guys taking pot shots at Dennison when he left and Mike Nolan who all he ever did for us is take our defense from 29th to 7th. No matter what, there always seems to be a "good riddance" crowd.

Agreed 110%. Its nauseating, like something out of the 1935 Soviet Union, where guys get clipped out of the encyclopedias and are made "non-persons."

Poet
03-21-2010, 01:35 PM
He was a likable player and he produced when given the chance. A lot of fans liked him because of that and a lot of fans felt he got a raw deal from McDaniels. That may actually be a bigger reason why his popularity soared.

He also had the underdog vote. The college team he played on had two first round draft picks at RB. He's easy to like, and in a league that has the reputation for players like the NFL, there's nothing wrong with that.

Tned
03-21-2010, 01:35 PM
Agreed 110%. Its nauseating, like something out of the 1935 Soviet Union, where guys get clipped out of the encyclopedias and are made "non-persons."

I'll ditto, your ditto.

I've even see the Super Bowls discounted as just a couple lucky seasons and lucky breaks. The revisionist history, specifically when it comes to players that are no longer Broncos is really irritating.

dogfish
03-21-2010, 03:18 PM
peyton's value as a football player is immeasurably higher than any vlaue kiszla brings to the universe, that's for sure. . . .

he may not think much of hillis carrying the rock, but NOBODY wants kiszla writing articles. . . . :lol:

rcsodak
03-21-2010, 07:17 PM
peyton's value as a football player is immeasurably higher than any vlaue kiszla brings to the universe, that's for sure. . . .

he may not think much of hillis carrying the rock, but NOBODY wants kiszla writing articles. . . . :lol:

I liked Hillis as much as the next person...hell, I was tooting his horn before he even got to denver.

But ANYTIME you can trade a backup rb for a backup qb, you've improved the team.

MasterShake
03-21-2010, 07:21 PM
A big reason I liked Hillis was the fact that he came in when OUR ENTIRE RB CORPS WENT DOWN IN ONE OF OUR WORST SEASONS EVER. It was just nice to see a guy that didn't crumble like a rice crispies treat when someone hit him. But then, he went down too! :lol:

The best part about Hillis to me was his "Aww shucks" attitude about being in the NFL. You gotta love a humble player. I'll miss him, but he's just a footnote in Broncos lore now.

KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128
03-21-2010, 09:37 PM
Are you guys STILL crying about that second string fullback who never saw the field under two broncos coaches? that guy who was put in after 7 runningbacks got injured, only to then get injured himself? Really guys? He plays for cleveland (or sits on the bench), quit crying about it already and let it go. Jesus, you gonna make a big deal about Jarvis Moss too?

Northman
03-21-2010, 09:43 PM
No, they are discussing the article put up by the original poster. So what if they want to give props to the guy in the process.

broncobryce
03-21-2010, 09:49 PM
Yeah, I put it up because 'JIZ' thrashed him in the article and I knew people liked Hillis. I love the trade though.

Tned
03-21-2010, 11:08 PM
No, they are discussing the article put up by the original poster. So what if they want to give props to the guy in the process.

What he ↑ said...

DenBronx
03-21-2010, 11:42 PM
popularity contest?

i think the fans liked hillis because he actually ran like he wanted to kill someone.

watch his tape.

atwater27
03-21-2010, 11:43 PM
Are you guys STILL crying about that second string fullback who never saw the field under two broncos coaches? that guy who was put in after 7 runningbacks got injured, only to then get injured himself? Really guys? He plays for cleveland (or sits on the bench), quit crying about it already and let it go. Jesus, you gonna make a big deal about Jarvis Moss too?

You are going to be the one crying when your boy Orton gets kicked to the curb soon. I wonder which "iconic" Bronco you will replace him with. How bout Alphonso? He was such a great value pick.

j3phr3y
03-22-2010, 01:49 AM
Hillis is awesome. Ran like Mike Anderson only meaner. His greatest contribution to the Broncos might be his trade, but it was fun watching him run while he was here. I'll keep rooting for him wherever he goes. :salute:

j3phr3y
03-22-2010, 01:54 AM
Are you guys STILL crying about that second string fullback who never saw the field under two broncos coaches? that guy who was put in after 7 runningbacks got injured, only to then get injured himself? Really guys? He plays for cleveland (or sits on the bench), quit crying about it already and let it go. Jesus, you gonna make a big deal about Jarvis Moss too?

WTF?

A lot of folks like the guy, big deal. And, brace yourself, people like Moss too!

SoCalImport
03-22-2010, 07:33 AM
WTF?

A lot of folks like the guy, big deal. And, brace yourself, people like Moss too!

Whoa!?!.......Alot of peeps may still have hope that Moss will start to show up..but "like"?
He's been nothing but a huge dissapointment.

broncofaninfla
03-22-2010, 08:04 AM
I don't think there are many of us who didn't, bryce. I guess it's just human nature but it's just so sad that folks feel the need to get their last minute jabs in when someone leaves the Broncos. Beloved or not, they obviously were "overrated" or "sucked" when it's time for them to move on. Nobody is ever as "good" anywhere else and they are now the enemy for some reason.

No all feel this way, but Geez, there were guys taking pot shots at Dennison when he left and Mike Nolan who all he ever did for us is take our defense from 29th to 7th. No matter what, there always seems to be a "good riddance" crowd.

This......

LRtagger
03-22-2010, 08:30 AM
You are going to be the one crying when your boy Orton gets kicked to the curb soon. I wonder which "iconic" Bronco you will replace him with. How bout Alphonso? He was such a great value pick.

This is a bit hypocritical, don't you think?

You have your opinion of McDaniels and the players he brought it. Others have their opinion of Hillis, Cutler, Scheffler.

People who are already over Hillis are no more wrong then people who are already over Orton or McDaniels.

I think you will find a lot of people taking shots at Hillis not because they don't like him, but because they are tired of hearing about how he was the future at the RB position. I liked the guy a lot, but some people are taking it a bit too far with how great he was and how much of an injustice it was that he didnt get 10-15 carries a game. I think the guy has more threads about him on the forums then he has yards in his career.

I hope he does well in Cleveland, but I'm not sorry that he didn't get every opportunity to succeed last year. I'm ready for the team to move on and continue getting better.

Elevation inc
03-22-2010, 09:07 AM
kiszla is a clown who cant tell the difference between a football and a baseball....we should listen to him why????

jhildebrand
03-22-2010, 10:39 AM
Are you guys STILL crying about that second string fullback who never saw the field under two broncos coaches? that guy who was put in after 7 runningbacks got injured, only to then get injured himself? Really guys? He plays for cleveland (or sits on the bench), quit crying about it already and let it go. Jesus, you gonna make a big deal about Jarvis Moss too?

The funny thing is Hillis gave us something to talk about i.e. a 100 yard game, the ability to pick up a first in short yardage situations (see the second play in the highlight reel), the ability to take contact in the back field and still pick up positive yardage (second play of the highlight reel), score TD's, etc...

I guess some are content with a certain RB being handed the reigns time and again despite production to the contrary and "complaining" that another RB is getting a ton of desevred love! :lol:

rationalfan
03-22-2010, 10:41 AM
damn. will this hillis love fest ever end? he's gone. deal with it.

sure he ran hard and liked to hit people (even when there was an opening next to the guy he hit). but i really suspect the reason he was so popular was that hillis was a white guy who didn't portray any thuggish, hip-hop styles. he was similar to what so many people view themselves to be: average guys who like to hit when given the chance.

and, please, i'm not making this a race issue. but there are obvious cultural differences that people are attracted to and/or repulsed by. hillis' demeanor reflected what so many broncos fan are attracted to.

nothing against hillis, but i always wanted him to get busted for pot or drunk driving or something. it would have been interesting to see how people on this board would have reacted to it. my prediction: he would have received a pass, while virtually every other player is flamed.

broncofaninfla
03-22-2010, 10:44 AM
damn. will this hillis love fest ever end? he's gone. deal with it.

sure he ran hard and liked to hit people (even when there was an opening next to the guy he hit). but i really suspect the reason he was so popular was that hillis was a white guy who didn't portray any thuggish, hip-hop styles. he was similar to what so many people view themselves to be: average guys who like to hit when given the chance.

and, please, i'm not making this a race issue. but there are obvious cultural differences that people are attracted to and/or repulsed by. hillis' demeanor reflected what so many broncos fan are attracted to.

nothing against hillis, but i always wanted him to get busted for pot or drunk driving or something. it would have been interesting to see how people on this board would have reacted to it. my prediction: he would have received a pass, while virtually every other player is flamed.

Did you actually read this thread before posting?

Ravage!!!
03-22-2010, 11:37 AM
damn. will this hillis love fest ever end? he's gone. deal with it.

sure he ran hard and liked to hit people (even when there was an opening next to the guy he hit). but i really suspect the reason he was so popular was that hillis was a white guy who didn't portray any thuggish, hip-hop styles. he was similar to what so many people view themselves to be: average guys who like to hit when given the chance.

and, please, i'm not making this a race issue. but there are obvious cultural differences that people are attracted to and/or repulsed by. hillis' demeanor reflected what so many broncos fan are attracted to.

nothing against hillis, but i always wanted him to get busted for pot or drunk driving or something. it would have been interesting to see how people on this board would have reacted to it. my prediction: he would have received a pass, while virtually every other player is flamed.


yeah.. its a reace thing :coffee: Thats so "rational" of you :rolleyes:

LRtagger
03-22-2010, 01:01 PM
The funny thing is Hillis gave us something to talk about i.e. a 100 yard game, the ability to pick up a first in short yardage situations (see the second play in the highlight reel), the ability to take contact in the back field and still pick up positive yardage (second play of the highlight reel), score TD's, etc...

I guess some are content with a certain RB being handed the reigns time and again despite production to the contrary and "complaining" that another RB is getting a ton of desevred love! :lol:

ACTUALLY nearly 65% of Moreno's total yardage came after contact. Better than Deangelo, Gore, Thomas Jones, Ced Benson, Marony, etc. People like to pretend that Moreno couldnt take contact, but according to the statsheet he was one of the better backs in the league as far as YAC is concerned. Our OL was decimated last year and a shell of its 2008 self.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cwxCLPpeiPY/S1y_FOd6SDI/AAAAAAAAABg/xsYAyDWs5eo/s1600/YCO.jpg

rationalfan
03-22-2010, 03:57 PM
yeah.. its a reace thing :coffee: Thats so "rational" of you :rolleyes:

sometimes the most rational perspective is the one that dares consider taboo subjects.

Ravage!!!
03-22-2010, 04:00 PM
ACTUALLY nearly 65% of Moreno's total yardage came after contact. Better than Deangelo, Gore, Thomas Jones, Ced Benson, Marony, etc. People like to pretend that Moreno couldnt take contact, but according to the statsheet he was one of the better backs in the league as far as YAC is concerned. Our OL was decimated last year and a shell of its 2008 self.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cwxCLPpeiPY/S1y_FOd6SDI/AAAAAAAAABg/xsYAyDWs5eo/s1600/YCO.jpg

Its easier to have a bigger percentage of yards after contact, when you don't have many yards. The guys with the most yards in the league AFTER contact, still have a smaller percentage. That doesn't really say much.

rationalfan
03-22-2010, 05:08 PM
Its easier to have a bigger percentage of yards after contact, when you don't have many yards. The guys with the most yards in the league AFTER contact, still have a smaller percentage. That doesn't really say much.

actually, percentages are true no matter the value. 45 percent will be 45 percent of whatever number it's derived from, be that 10 or 10,000.

broncobryce
03-22-2010, 05:24 PM
That's an interesting stat. Some act like Moreno is Tatum Bell part 2 when it comes to breaking tackles. Thanks for the stat.

LRtagger
03-22-2010, 05:31 PM
Its easier to have a bigger percentage of yards after contact, when you don't have many yards. The guys with the most yards in the league AFTER contact, still have a smaller percentage. That doesn't really say much.

You do understand what a percentage is, right? Look at the graph again. What you said is entirely incorrect.

Ravage!!!
03-22-2010, 05:34 PM
actually, percentages are true no matter the value. 45 percent will be 45 percent of whatever number it's derived from, be that 10 or 10,000.


Actually, in this case there is a big difference. Its purely the percentage of the TOTAL rushing yards for the year. So if you have fewer total yards, the number is a larger percentage.

Like the QB that completes 75% of his throws, but he only has 4 passes for the season. The three completions have a much larger percentage than the guy that threw 100 passes. So the % doesn't exactly prove 'true.'

When you rush for less than 1000 yrds in a season, your 600yrds after contact is a much larger percentage than the 1080 yrds ( still after contact) that Chris Johnson had. Its not comparing the average yards after contact, nor is it comparing the number or rushes. Its purely a % of the TOTAL yrds of the season.

arapaho2
03-22-2010, 05:41 PM
Are you guys STILL crying about that second string fullback who never saw the field under two broncos coaches? that guy who was put in after 7 runningbacks got injured, only to then get injured himself? Really guys? He plays for cleveland (or sits on the bench), quit crying about it already and let it go. Jesus, you gonna make a big deal about Jarvis Moss too?


never saw the field?....hillis played as FB in 8 games as a rookie before starting as a rb


im sure in 2011 when ortons riding pine for detroit...you'll be crying about the unfairness of it all

Ravage!!!
03-22-2010, 05:48 PM
No.. actually what I said is ENTIRELY correct.

This isn't saying Moreno had MORE yards after contact. Its not saying that he had more yards after contact compared to anyone. ITs not saying his average yards after contact were better than anyone. Its not even saying he had more contacts. Its basing the total number of yards after contact compared to the total rushing yards for the year.

So if two runner both the same number of carries, and both had 500 yrds after contact for the season....but rusher A) only rushed for 1000 yrds, and rusher B) rushed for 1500 yrds.... you are saying that this somehow proves he's a better runner after contact???

Both rushers could even have the EXACT number of contacts, at the same point on the field, when handed off at the same time. Rusher A will always have a bigger PERCENTAGE because he didn't rush for as many yards.

SO he could actually have FEWER yards after contact than every rusher on that Graph (hypothetically), but his % of yardage compared to his season total, is the best. This proves something positive???

LRtagger
03-22-2010, 06:04 PM
Actually, in this case there is a big difference. Its purely the percentage of the TOTAL rushing yards for the year. So if you have fewer total yards, the number is a larger percentage.

Like the QB that completes 75% of his throws, but he only has 4 passes for the season. The three completions have a much larger percentage than the guy that threw 100 passes. So the % doesn't exactly prove 'true.'

When you rush for less than 1000 yrds in a season, your 600yrds after contact is a much larger percentage than the 1080 yrds ( still after contact) that Chris Johnson had. Its not comparing the average yards after contact, nor is it comparing the number or rushes. Its purely a % of the TOTAL yrds of the season.

Surely you aren't serious. You are looking at Chris Johnson at the top left of the graph and basing your entire theory on him alone.

Chris Johnson has a lower percentage with higher yards because he broke a lot of logn runs without contact. He has elite speed that a typical NFL back doesn't have. Not to mention he has one of the top lines in the league.

Why is it that Ray Rice, who ran for over 1330 yards, still has a much lower percentage than Moreno? Why is it that Thomas Jones, who ran for over 1400 yards, has a much lower percentage than Moreno? Why is it that DeAngelo Williams, who ran for over 1100 yards in only 13 games has a lower percentage than Moreno?

Why is it that Felix Jones had only 685 yards, but a lower YAC than Moreno? Why is it that LT only had 730 yards, but a lower YAC than Moreno? Why is it Maroney had 757 yards, but a lower YAC than Moreno? Then Pierre Thomas, Jerome Harrison, etc etc.

And in that regard, why is it that AD, MJD, and Steven Jackson all have approximately 1400 yards and have high percentages?

There's no similarity between this stat and completion percentage.

If runner A has 10 carries, each one going for 10 yards but he goes down at first contact on every run, then he has 100 yards, 0 YAC, and a percentage of ZERO.

If runner B has 10 carries for 10 yards each, but got hit at the line of scrimmage on all of those runs, then he has 100 yards, 100 YAC, and a percentage a 100.

If runner C has 10 carries and breaks each one for an 80 yard TD after getting hit at the LOS on 5 of those runs, then he has 800 yards, 400 YAC, and a percentage of 50.

dogfish
03-22-2010, 06:10 PM
but i really suspect the reason he was so popular was that hillis was a white guy who didn't portray any thuggish, hip-hop styles.

sounds like a reach to me. . .

can't speak for anyone else, but i happen to love hip-hop, and i've always been a big fan of hillis. . . he brought a very useful skill set and a lot of versatility, and a punishing running style that any fan of old school football should be able to appreciate-- regardless of skin color or culture. . .

he cost next to nothing, did whatever we asked him to and kept his mouth shut. . . besides which, fans always like the underdogs, especially those that perform when given a chance. . .

plenty of reasons to like the guy without any sinister ulterior motives. . .

LRtagger
03-22-2010, 06:11 PM
So if two runner both the same number of carries, and both had 500 yrds after contact for the season....but rusher A) only rushed for 1000 yrds, and rusher B) rushed for 1500 yrds.... you are saying that this somehow proves he's a better runner after contact???

Both rushers could even have the EXACT number of contacts, at the same point on the field, when handed off at the same time. Rusher A will always have a bigger PERCENTAGE because he didn't rush for as many yards.


This is statistically impossible.

How can Rusher A have 500 fewer yards when both Rusher A and B have the same number of contacts, same number of carries, and were first contacted at the same point on the field? Statistically it would be impossible for Rusher A to have a higher percentage than B in that scenario.

Both Rusher A and Rusher B get 20 carries. Both guys get hit 5 yards past the LOS on every run. Rusher A runs for 100 yards in the game and rusher B runs for 150 yards in the game. How exactly can Rusher A have a higher YAC percentage than Rusher B?

BigBroncLove
03-22-2010, 06:16 PM
Stats are dangerous things IMO. It's much better to look at these RB's like horses and just concentrate on their thigh muscles. This will tell you everything you need to know ;). j/k......

Anyways I do think it's an interesting stat that what yards Moreno did achieve were largely after contact. The thing it does say without doubt is that he was contacted a lot and still achieved some success after the fact. Whether that was from poor blocking or bad cuts is up to the individual to decide (though i tend to think it was a bit of both personally). Of course you have to look at other stats too, such as YPC (3.8), 3rd down running conversions for the Broncos, etc, etc. I do agree with Ravage that based upon total yards a higher percentage is easier to reach based on ratio alone. However I do believe after so many yards the tale of the tape becomes moot. An RB's story can't be told by numbers usually, I think we all can agree with that.

Personally I'm very interested to see how Moreno does now that the Broncos will have made the switch to a more pure power blocking scheme which he is more familiar with coming from Georgia. No scheme is pure... there will be zone blocking in there and traps, but given his comfort in the more common power blocking scheme hopefully Moreno will hit his stride this year. IMO I think he can with the right work ethic this off season.

dogfish
03-22-2010, 06:24 PM
BBL, what's up man?

BigBroncLove
03-22-2010, 06:32 PM
BBL, what's up man?

Eh not much, eating some potato chips. Really though, just moved back to denver after a long journey in California and being recalled to the military for a stint. Figured I'd come on back and talk some football with other keen footieball minds.

All my friends in Denver don't watch football... or if they do are unfettered pessimists these days. So here I am. Back to stay :)

Was enjoying reading some of your recent tastes in the beer thread. I've had a real hankering for IPA's and a few stouts. Looking forward to trying some of your suggestions in there. You?

LRtagger
03-22-2010, 06:32 PM
The only scenario where having more total yards would mean your percentage is lower would be this:

Runner A gets hit two yards past the LOS and falls forward for 1 yard. That would mean Runner A has 3 yards, 1 YAC, and a percentage of 33.

Runner B gets hit 20 yards past the LOS and falls forward for 1 yard. That would mean Runner B has 21 yards, 1 YAC, and a percentage of 5.

But the sample size for the above graph is large enough that it would wash scenarios like this out. A majority of initial contact on running plays comes within 10 yards of the LOS I would imagine.

Ravage!!!
03-22-2010, 06:32 PM
This is statistically impossible.

How can Rusher A have 500 fewer yards when both Rusher A and B have the same number of contacts, same number of carries, and were first contacted at the same point on the field? Statistically it would be impossible for Rusher A to have a higher percentage than B in that scenario.

Both Rusher A and Rusher B get 20 carries. Both guys get hit 5 yards past the LOS on every run. Rusher A runs for 100 yards in the game and rusher B runs for 150 yards in the game. How exactly can Rusher A have a higher YAC percentage than Rusher B?

Compared to the total yards rushed for the season. This percentage is based on the total yards per season, NOT per game.

So if both runners, A and B, rush for 300 times for the year...

A) 300 rushes, 900 yrds, 300 contacts for 540 YAC (60%)......

B) 300 rushes, 1350 yrds, 300 contacts 750 YAC (55%)....

Same number of rushes.. same number of contacts... A has bigger % to the total yards for the season while rushing for 900 yrds and 1.8ypc after contact.

B has a bigger YPC, and bigger YAC (2.5)... BUT his % of YAC compared to the total yards of the season is smaller than A.

Using your logic and use of this graph, you are saying that A is the better runner (or better runner after contact) because his YAC % is bigger.

LRtagger
03-22-2010, 06:48 PM
Compared to the total yards rushed for the season. This percentage is based on the total yards per season, NOT per game.

So if both runners, A and B, rush for 300 times for the year...

A) 300 rushes, 900 yrds, 300 contacts for 540 YAC (60%)......

B) 300 rushes, 1350 yrds, 300 contacts 750 YAC (55%)....

Same number of rushes.. same number of contacts... A has bigger % to the total yards for the season while rushing for 900 yrds and 1.8ypc after contact.

B has a bigger YPC, and bigger YAC (2.5)... BUT his % of YAC compared to the total yards of the season is smaller than A.

Using your logic and use of this graph, you are saying that A is the better runner (or better runner after contact) because his YAC % is bigger.

Right, but those numbers don't work for your theory that both runners are contacted at the same point on the field. Obviously with those stats it would mean Runner B gets hit further away from the LOS meaning he probably has the better offensive line and is probably contacted by LBs and DBs as opposed to LBs and DL.

The reason I posted the graph to begin with was to disprove the notion that Moreno falls over when a defender is within 5 yards of him. Moreno is perfectly capable of shedding tackles. His biggest problem is his vision and burst to the hole. That should improve with time. I am just sick of the moniker that the McD/Moreno haters have given Moreno that he is the second coming of Tater.

Ravage!!!
03-22-2010, 06:55 PM
Right, but those numbers don't work for your theory that both runners are contacted at the same point on the field. Obviously with those stats it would mean Runner B gets hit further away from the LOS meaning he probably has the better offensive line and is probably contacted by LBs and DBs as opposed to LBs and DL.



Shows no such thing. Take both runners, and say that both are equally hit directly at the LOS on every hit. Still comes out the same.

Where do you figure any different and this idea that one is getting hit by different people?

Its purely showing ypc and yac. The YPC is the average that includes the YAC. I don't see where you are getting the rest of your scenarios at.

Ravage!!!
03-22-2010, 06:58 PM
I am just sick of the moniker that the McD/Moreno haters have given Moreno that he is the second coming of Tater.

I don't know what the like or dislike for Moreno has anything to do with McD...other than your own tainted ideas that people must LIKE moreno, unless they don't like McD. Or that the only reason not to like Moreno is if they don't lke McD.

As of right now... until he shows something... he deserves to be treated like another Tatum (Other than the fact that Bell had more speed and explosion). Until he actually does something, he deserves that moniker.

LRtagger
03-22-2010, 07:33 PM
Shows no such thing. Take both runners, and say that both are equally hit directly at the LOS on every hit. Still comes out the same.


No it doesnt. It is impossible to get the numbers you listed and have both runners get hit at the same spot from the LOS. If both players had 300 carries and both players got hit at the LOS on every carry, that would mean the player with the MOST YARDS would have the higher YAC. A direct contradiction to your theory.

The scenario that you posted, Runner A has 900 total yards, 540 after contact, meaning he has 360 yards BEFORE contact. Averaged out over 300 carries means he was hit 1.2 yards past the LOS on average.

Runner B has 1350 total yards, 750 after contact, meaning he has 600 yards BEFORE contact. Averaged out over 300 carries means he was hit 2 yards past the LOS on average...nearly an entire yard difference.

LRtagger
03-22-2010, 07:36 PM
As of right now... until he shows something... he deserves to be treated like another Tatum (Other than the fact that Bell had more speed and explosion). Until he actually does something, he deserves that moniker.

The graph a posted DOES show just that. A majority of his yards came after contact meaning he is able to gain yards after being contacted. Why would that warrant an association with him going down at first contact? :confused:

dogfish
03-22-2010, 07:43 PM
hey, does it say anywhere on that graph how much ass hillis is gonna kick in cleveland?


:heh:

Ravage!!!
03-22-2010, 08:08 PM
No it doesnt. It is impossible to get the numbers you listed and have both runners get hit at the same spot from the LOS. If both players had 300 carries and both players got hit at the LOS on every carry, that would mean the player with the MOST YARDS would have the higher YAC. A direct contradiction to your theory.

The scenario that you posted, Runner A has 900 total yards, 540 after contact, meaning he has 360 yards BEFORE contact. Averaged out over 300 carries means he was hit 1.2 yards past the LOS on average.

Runner B has 1350 total yards, 750 after contact, meaning he has 600 yards BEFORE contact. Averaged out over 300 carries means he was hit 2 yards past the LOS on average...nearly an entire yard difference.

Fair enough. But your graph doesn't have a single stat for number of carries, or number of contacts. It purely compares the % to the total yards.... thus means absolutely nothing.


a) 540 yac........(60%)

b) 946 yac.......(55%)

This is all your graph provides. Going by these stats, you are trying to tell me that you can tell me that A is better after YAC than B, purely based on the % of the total yards. Doesn't hold much water. I don't think the graph showed anything at all if trying to compare abilities to other players.

I think a lot of people want to use the OL as an excuse for a lack of production.

rcsodak
03-22-2010, 08:18 PM
actually, percentages are true no matter the value. 45 percent will be 45 percent of whatever number it's derived from, be that 10 or 10,000.

You'll quickly learn, rf, that unless the "statsheet" leans toward the favor of some poster's argument, it's deemed worthless.

:rolleyes:

LRtagger
03-22-2010, 08:52 PM
Fair enough. But your graph doesn't have a single stat for number of carries, or number of contacts. It purely compares the % to the total yards.... thus means absolutely nothing.


a) 540 yac........(60%)

b) 946 yac.......(55%)

This is all your graph provides. Going by these stats, you are trying to tell me that you can tell me that A is better after YAC than B, purely based on the % of the total yards. Doesn't hold much water. I don't think the graph showed anything at all if trying to compare abilities to other players.

I think a lot of people want to use the OL as an excuse for a lack of production.

Well, to be fair I didn't intend to use that graph alone to deduce which RBs are better. My original intent was to point out that Moreno is very capable of picking up yards after he is initially hit. He perhaps did a better job at it then people give him credit for.

I don't think it's any secret that our Oline struggled with injury and the new blocking scheme last season.