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View Full Version : Why does Denver struggle to develop D-Linemen?



xzn
03-20-2010, 05:55 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=pasquarelli_len&id=5007623

Over the past 13 months, the Denver Broncos have changed their head coach and general manager, gone through two defensive coordinators and transitioned their base scheme from a 4-3 look to a 3-4.

Still, no matter the wholesale makeover, it seems that whenever it comes to defensive linemen, the more things change in The Mile High City, the more some issues remain the same.

Like the Broncos' maddening, and apparently ongoing, inability to draft and develop their own up-front players on defense. :rolleyes:

Despite moving to No. 7 in overall defense in 2009 (from 29th the previous season), the Broncos parted ways with coordinator Mike Nolan in January -- he took on the same role with the Dolphins -- and replaced him with linebackers coach Don Martindale. The apparent progress aside, Denver is revamping its front line, likely a result of its late-season meltdown against the run and a No. 26 ranking in '09 versus the rush. The Broncos have not ranked in the top 10 against the run since 2004. :eek:

Denver has signed three veteran linemen as unrestricted free agents in the first two weeks of the free-agency period: nose tackle Jamal Williams (San Diego) and ends Justin Bannan (Baltimore) and Jarvis Green (New England). All three project as starters for the Broncos in 2010.

Of course, Denver started three outsiders on the defensive line in 2009 (Ronald Fields, Ryan McBean and Kenny Peterson), so employing retread imports to compensate for Denver's defensive-line shortcomings in the draft is hardly anything new for the club.

But it's got to be getting a little old.

"It's a difficult position to fill," conceded Broncos second-year coach Josh McDaniels at the NFL combine last month. "I think historically that has been the case."

True enough. For the Broncos, however, it's all but impossible, no matter if the coach is McDaniels or predecessor Mike Shanahan.

The last time the Broncos selected a player who made the Pro Bowl as a defensive lineman was in 1997, when they grabbed Trevor Pryce with the 28th pick in the first round. Elvis Dumervil earned a Pro Bowl nod in '09 after leading the league in sacks, but the fourth-year veteran, taken as an undersized 4-3 end in the 2006 draft, wasn't chosen for the all-star game until he switched to a hybrid rush linebacker in the 3-4 changeover under Nolan.

"They've had some turnover here," said Fields, a starter for all 16 games at nose tackle last season after signing as a free agent after four years in San Francisco (the five-year veteran likely will give way to Williams for the upcoming campaign).

Rarely, though, is the turnover due to an influx of young, homegrown linemen.

Since the 2000 season, the Broncos have used 27 different opening-day starters on the defensive line. Only seven were players originally drafted by the Broncos or signed as undrafted college free agents. Just twice in that 10-year stretch has Denver had more than two homegrown D-line starters in its Week 1 lineup. Five times in that span, the Broncos' Week 1 D-line starters who began their careers in Denver numbered either zero or one.

Pryce and Dumervil are the only homegrown defensive linemen to start consecutive season openers since 2000.

"It's been like a revolving door [of veteran linemen]," said tackle Gerard Warren, who was acquired from Cleveland in a 2005 trade, but who lasted just two years in Denver before being shipped to Oakland in 2007.

Blame it in large part on the glaring liabilities in drafting along the defensive line.

Including Dumervil and 2009 first-rounder Robert Ayers, who was chosen as an end but moved to outside linebacker in the 3-4 Nolan implemented last season, the Broncos have selected 15 defensive linemen in the draft since 2000. Only three of those players ever started more than eight games in a season, just Dumervil more than once. Seven of those draft picks are no longer in the league, and 10 logged fewer than five total starts in Denver. Seven never started a single contest during their Broncos' tenures.

Denver has suffered its share of poor luck with linemen in the draft -- such as the knee problems that have plagued end Jarvis Moss, limiting the 2007 first-round pick to one start in three seasons -- but the Broncos' track record has been nonetheless dismal.

Because of the obvious shortcomings in the draft, Denver imported 19 defensive-line veterans (11 in free agency and another eight via trades) from 2000-2009. In 2005, the Broncos added four linemen via trades, including three from the Cleveland Browns. Many of the newcomers fizzled as well, such as former No. 1 overall draft choice Courtney Brown; onetime first-rounders Daryl Gardener, Dewayne Robertson, Jimmy Kennedy, Ebenezer Ekuban, Marco Coleman, Ellis Johnson, and Warren; and notable players like Leon Lett, Lional Dalton, and John Engelberger.

So while free agency has slowed mostly to a waltz in its first two weeks, in Denver, it's pretty much been the annual line dance.

Len Pasquarelli, a recipient of the Pro Football Hall of Fame's McCann Award for distinguished reporting, is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

Ill Trade Winds

Because of their abysmal track record in the draft, the Denver Broncos have traded for eight veteran defensive linemen since 2004, usually with mixed results. Here's a look at the eight players acquired via trade:

DE Ellis Johnson (Atlanta, 2004): In his only season in Denver, longtime Indianapolis standout and first-round pick in 1995 played in just 13 games, with no starts. In limited playing time, Johnson, acquired from the Falcons for a fifth-round pick, had 16 tackles and three sacks.

DE John Engelberger (San Francisco, 2005): Totaled 118 tackles and three sacks (never more than one sack in a season), in 61 games and 22 starts over four years with Denver. Started 15 games in 2007. Acquired after five seasons with the 49ers in exchange for cornerback Willie Middlebrooks.

DE Ebenezer Ekuban (Cleveland, 2005): Acquired from Browns for tailback Reuben Droughns. Started in 29 of 46 appearances in three seasons with Denver, and registered 104 tackles and 16 sacks. Former Dallas first-rounder (1999), solid but not spectacular against the run, had seven sacks in 2006.

DT Michael Myers (Cleveland, 2005): Essentially a throw-in to the Ekuban-Droughns trade, the journeyman interior lineman was one of the Broncos' few bargains. Started in all but one of his 32 appearances in two seasons. Had only three sacks, but was solid versus the run, with 88 tackles.

DT Gerard Warren (Cleveland, 2005): Started all of his 31 appearances in two seasons, but onetime third overall pick in draft (2001) posted just 49 tackles, and with 5½ sacks, was not the inside presence many felt he would be. Browns dealt him to Broncos after four seasons for only a fourth-round choice.

DT Jimmy Kennedy (St. Louis, 2007): First-round pick of Rams in 2003 was traded for a sixth-round draft choice, but never played in a regular-season game for the Broncos. Released before the start of the '07 campaign.

DT Dewayne Robertson (N.Y. Jets, 2008): The fourth overall selection in 2003 was dealt to Denver for a conditional draft pick. The conditions were never met, so New York got nothing from the trade. Started in all 15 appearances in '08 and had 22 tackles and 1½ sacks.

DE Le Kevin Smith (New England, 2009): Acquired from the Pats, along with seventh-round pick, for fifth-round choice. Played in only 13 games in '09, with two starts, and had 10 tackles and one sack. Not tendered by Broncos at end of season, but recently re-signed with Denver for 2010 campaign.

-- Len Pasquarelli

Sorry if this is depressing, but it really seriously documents just how profound our team's failure has been up front on defense over the last decade. :tsk:

atwater27
03-20-2010, 06:15 AM
This was Shanahan's biggest weakness by far. It maddens me, because I believe the defensive line, especially defensive tackle, is the most important non quarterback position.

muse
03-20-2010, 06:50 AM
Well, part of the problem was that after Pryce, the highest Shanny ever drafted a DL was in the third round. That pick was Dorsett Davis. We simply didn't have the raw talent.

2007 and 2008 were both disastrous; 2007 saw us switch schemes where we needed a couple of huge DTs, none of which were available in the draft or in FA so we were scraping the bottom of the barrel. 2008 saw complete ineptitude on Bob Slowik's part to create a scheme to fit the players - as far as I know, we were using both starting DTs as two gap players even though both had long been pegged as one-gap undertackles. In fact, the only DL we had that year who did fit in a two-gap scheme was Carlton Powell :lol: you kind of have to look back and laugh.

I sincerely hope that we can turn things around, but DL are notoriously hard to predict coming out of the draft - maybe that's why McDaniels is content to pick up serviceable veterans in FA? It'll be interesting to see if we take another one in this draft, and whether they're an NT or a 5-tech.

FanInAZ
03-20-2010, 07:02 AM
This was Shanahan's biggest weakness by far. It maddens me, because I believe the defensive line, especially defensive tackle, is the most important non quarterback position.

This is why I would only hire Shanny as a OC rather then a HC.

Lonestar
03-20-2010, 08:44 AM
One would think being the offensive genius he was. He could have reverse engineered a D.

But the guy was clueless about D.

I think not having a professional GM here that was not just an order taker that Ted was.

Not to mention having a DC that knew a DT from his rectum.

Coyer built his defenses on LB's. Bates would have done it on DL and slowitt God only knows what was on his mind.

That was a great article while I was cognizant of our drafting failures IT was even more brutal than I had remembered.

Let's hope we can find one or two jewels in this coming draft since it is so heavy in DL talent.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

gobroncsnv
03-20-2010, 10:24 AM
Pryce was let go, Bertrand Berry was let go, even Montae Raegor (sp?) was a solid contributor when he went to the Colts. These 3, if I recall correctly, were teammates in Denver at one time. Ok, that's long ago history, but is one of the shining examples of my biggest frustration with Shanny.
Elvis is the best DL pick made since, what, 94 or 5? But kind of a waste if you don't get the man some help. Maybe we've made some recent strides here, with JW, Bannon, who knows with Green? Fine, call Dooms a LB, but a 90% pass rusher is still a DL position, if you ask me... (ok, so you didn't ask)
Point is, you can't just have one point of meaningful attack on the front line and expect good results. Nor can you do well if your linemen lead the league in getting and staying blocked. The front 3 have to MAKE the offense plan on not going at those gaps, because there's no future in it.
Sorry if I sound kinda jaded, but I had large expectations for Gardener, Adams, Brown, Warren, etc, etc, etc... Would LOVE to be pleasantly surprised this year. We really need to turn this around if we're going to make any resounding post-season noise.

BroncoAV06
03-20-2010, 10:50 AM
Ah good ole Ebenezer, those were the days.

Northman
03-20-2010, 10:58 AM
This is why I would only hire Shanny as a OC rather then a HC.

Shanny is actually a good HC, its the sharing of HC/GM that got him into trouble.

atwater27
03-20-2010, 11:59 AM
This is why I would only hire Shanny as a OC rather then a HC.

Really? Because Shanny the OC never won us any super bowls. Shanny the HC did. 2 of them. Do you remember?

Northman
03-20-2010, 12:04 PM
Really? Because Shanny the OC never won us any super bowls. Shanny the HC did. 2 of them. Do you remember?

Well, watch out Atwater. They are going to say it was strickly because of John Elway. :lol:

Fact is if thats the case than Walsh, Gibbs, Belichek all won because of their respective QB's which we know is part of it but not all of it. Shanny is a solid HC and deserves the accolades for winning two SB's. Somewhere down the line he lost his way and the message got stale but he is a good HC.

atwater27
03-20-2010, 12:27 PM
I am just so sick of this shit. There are a ton of folks here who bash our history to defend the present. I don't get it. And they have a hatred for former broncos they spent years cheering before.

silkamilkamonico
03-20-2010, 01:02 PM
Well, part of the problem was that after Pryce, the highest Shanny ever drafted a DL was in the third round. That pick was Dorsett Davis. We simply didn't have the raw talent.


I'd say it's more of a failure of Shanahan to actually take the position seriously. The staff this offseason has taken the position more seriously in a matter of 1 year than Shanahan did in the last 10. The most serious Shanahan took the position was going after the players Cleveland didn't want, and even then only Gerrard Warren turned out to be ok. He's doing the same thing in Washington, by tinkering with the idea of moving Haynesworth outside to end. IMHO, he should leave their defense alone before he screws it up. He'll fix the offense.

WARHORSE
03-20-2010, 01:06 PM
The article is stating what we already know.


It all begins up front, and hopefully Josh can turn this trend around.


But lets not forget that his offense was severly hampered last year and Im sure he doesnt like that taste in his mouth.

Im sure hearing that Nolan was the reason for the defensive turnaround while he was the cause of the offensive 'collapse' has not left him with a good feeling in his gut.


It seems to me Josh is preparing himself to be able to take the best available player on his board..........and Im good with that.

If Marshall is dealt, WR all of a sudden becomes alot more of a need.

On the other hand, will it be enough of a need to reach in the draft?

I think Josh is going to bring in another Welker type somewhere in the draft, and it may not be from the WR position....it may come from a RB prospect.


Also.......dont forget QB. How much stock does Josh put in Brady Quinn? Where does Clausen rank on Denvers board?


If its high...........there will possibly be some upset campers in the
B R O N C O S faithful.

While I want to add a dominant defensive impact player like McCoy, Suh, Berry, Morgan, Graham or Haden, I think we may see offense here.


If its offense........I sure hope its along the oline.

The best available tackle would be nice.:coffee:

FanInAZ
03-21-2010, 01:04 AM
Shanny is actually a good HC, its the sharing of HC/GM that got him into trouble.


Really? Because Shanny the OC never won us any super bowls. Shanny the HC did. 2 of them. Do you remember?


Well, watch out Atwater. They are going to say it was strickly because of John Elway. :lol:

Fact is if thats the case than Walsh, Gibbs, Belichek all won because of their respective QB's which we know is part of it but not all of it. Shanny is a solid HC and deserves the accolades for winning two SB's. Somewhere down the line he lost his way and the message got stale but he is a good HC.

Shanny inherited the bulk of the SB defensive players from Reeves and Phillips. In '97, Neil Smith became a free agent and decided that he wanted to win an SB before he retired. It's my understanding that he made a beeline to the Broncos because he believed that they were 1 DE away from winning the SB, and he was right. Once our SB defensive player retired or went to other teams, he needed to rebuild our defense. However, in spite of all of the success that he had in building our post-Elway offense, he failed with our post-Smith defense.

BigBroncLove
03-21-2010, 07:39 AM
Pryce was let go, Bertrand Berry was let go, even Montae Raegor (sp?) was a solid contributor when he went to the Colts. These 3, if I recall correctly, were teammates in Denver at one time. Ok, that's long ago history, but is one of the shining examples of my biggest frustration with Shanny.


Don't forget Reggie Hayward who was a great DE when he left for Jacksonville in 2005 (he had 10.5 sacks in his last season with the broncos).

Dean
03-21-2010, 08:16 AM
IMO I believe that the last two years of Shanahan's defenses have clouded aur memories of past defenses. In 2000, the defensive team that took us to the Super Bowl wins was gone. Our defensive ranking dropped to 24.

Shanahan started a rebuilding program. Over the next four years our rankings were 8th, 6th, 4th, and 4th. That aint chopped liver. Then we were up against the salary cap and other teams had discovered free agency making it highly expensive. That is what history shows actually occured.

This is purely opinion on my part but here is what I feel happened. After the 2005 AFC championship loss, Shanahn decided to rebuild and do it through the draft starting with the offense. He went more toward the draft and allowed Bates to have D-picks to fit his defense. It didn't work and the defense along with the picks to fit it were scrapped. The offense got stronger. However, the yearly changes in D-coordinators and scheme left us without the talent to fit any single scheme.

Fire away.

broncobryce
03-21-2010, 10:12 AM
If Al Wilson had stayed healthy, things would have been much different for our defense. But I never understood why the D-lineman we did develop Shanny let go.:confused:

Dean
03-21-2010, 11:47 AM
If Al Wilson had stayed healthy, things would have been much different for our defense. But I never understood why the D-lineman we did develop Shanny let go.:confused:

If you mean Bertand Berry and Reggie Hayward, we couldn't afford them. If you mean Trevor Pryce, he had gotten to the point that he took several plays off after signing a contract that at the time was the highest for a D-lineman. When he wanted to play he was a player that other teams had to plan for.

BigBroncLove
03-21-2010, 12:08 PM
If you mean Bertand Berry and Reggie Hayward, we couldn't afford them. If you mean Trevor Pryce, he had gotten to the point that he took several plays off after signing a contract that at the time was the highest for a D-lineman. When he wanted to play he was a player that other teams had to plan for.

As far as Pryce, I do think he was taking a play off or two and the Broncos were less than enthralled by it. He was openly upset about how he was being utilized under the Broncos at the time. Coyer was using him to try and attempt double teams to free the Defensive tackles to create penetration. He was being coached to attack the B gap and draw the guard and tackle, rather then edge rush or attack the C gap between the tackle and tight end. Pryce felt he should have been used more to create that penetration of his own accord rather then free less capable DT's we had at the time. To his credit I think he was right, and after he was released the Broncos shifted to attacking the edges more often.

He was ultimately released because the Broncos had done a terrible job of cap management for another year. They had a week or two to get under the cap, which they were over at the time. They cut Pryce to recoup 8.something million toward the cap. Funny thing was, in 04 Pryce restructured his contract to stay with the Broncos and the Broncos appreciated it. Honestly though he was coming back from an injury in 04 and his value on the FA market was reduced.

rcsodak
03-21-2010, 06:14 PM
No different than why NE can't develop wr's. Denver's problems are no different than the other 31 teams'. We're just closer to them.

SoCalImport
03-21-2010, 06:20 PM
Coyer was using him to try and attempt double teams to free the Defensive tackles to create penetration. He was being coached to attack the B gap and draw the guard and tackle, rather then edge rush or attack the C gap between the tackle and tight end.

seems to me that's exactly what he went to the Ravens to do as a 34 DE. He was pretty damn effective that first year there too.

rcsodak
03-21-2010, 06:54 PM
Don't forget Reggie Hayward who was a great DE when he left for Jacksonville in 2005 (he had 10.5 sacks in his last season with the broncos).

Heyward was nothing special. Good grief, look at his stats. Only times he'd have good numbers would be from multiple sacks vs shit teams.

Same goes for Berry.

Everytime I hear someone ripping Shanny for letting these "stars" go, I laugh. He saw they were nothing special, nor worth the big bucks they wanted/ended up getting. The only time they were decent with denver, was their final years of their contracts, iirc.

SoCalImport
03-21-2010, 06:59 PM
Heyward was nothing special. Good grief, look at his stats. Only times he'd have good numbers would be from multiple sacks vs shit teams.

Same goes for Berry.

Everytime I hear someone ripping Shanny for letting these "stars" go, I laugh. He saw they were nothing special, nor worth the big bucks they wanted/ended up getting. The only time they were decent with denver, was their final years of their contracts, iirc.

True'ish.
Heyward was solid and young, but "nothing special".
Berry, although a one trick pony, was a very talented passrusher.

They both got more as free agents than they deserved and certainly more than Denver was ever going to pay them. That much is definitely true.

Lonestar
03-21-2010, 07:13 PM
Price got the big contract and invested in a recording studio his first love.

I do not remeber how many times either mike or Rod would have to call him out to get his attention.

At the time they cut him he was making 9 mil and would not redo his contract. So he got cut and finally signed with the crows for about a million. About 5 million less than he would have got in DEN had he redone his contract.

What goes around comes around.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

rcsodak
03-21-2010, 08:27 PM
Price got the big contract and invested in a recording studio his first love.

I do not remeber how many times either mike or Rod would have to call him out to get his attention.

At the time they cut him he was making 9 mil and would not redo his contract. So he got cut and finally signed with the crows for about a million. About 5 million less than he would have got in DEN had he redone his contract.

What goes around comes around.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

Don't forget, jr, that Pryce HIMSELF, acknowledged that he hadn't played "up to my contract".

Lancane
03-21-2010, 08:33 PM
Denver is far from the only team that has had trouble developing defensive lineman. If you carefully look at the facts, since the mid 90's when the league had really began to change the rules to be more strict, the players have tended to be softer in the way they play. Back in the early 90's and even back further we saw many dominant defensive lineman, but as the league progressed into what it is now...there are few. Take in for example that only three defensive lineman of the modern era have been inducted to the Hall of Fame: Reggie White, Bruce Smith and John Randle. Of those still active, who is really Hall of Fame worthy or of that level in play? Maybe Peppers, Haynesworth, Wilfork and Williams...

My point is that defensively that teams have gotten on with usually one above average to dominate player which has elevated the play of his fellow linemates. It's not like the 60's, 70's and 80's where there were so many outstanding defensive lineman that teams had notorious defensive units: The Orange Crush, The Purple People Eaters, The Steel Curtain, The No Name Defense, The Fearsome Foursome and The 46 Defense. Defensive lineman in the draft have continually become more busts then successes at the pro level, the same can be said for wideouts; if the wideouts who found collegiate success were near as successful at the pro level we would have a plethura of high scoring offenses, but only so many actually can lift their play to succeed in the NFL, I think the same can be said for defensive lineman. Even Mario Williams has not lived up to what we expected from him coming into the league. It could be the difference to succeed is too great or that the high level of play and the eliteness of the offenses are too much. And there are still good defenses, look at Baltimore, Pittsburgh and so on, but even they do not have an abundance of dominant defensive lineman, it's more on the unit to be good then on a particular player.

BigBroncLove
03-21-2010, 10:03 PM
seems to me that's exactly what he went to the Ravens to do as a 34 DE. He was pretty damn effective that first year there too.

It was funny that he did, though as a 5-tech he wasn't exclusively attacking the B-gap. If you look back at old reports he acknowledges that Denvers ssytem had changed to be more friendly for what he was looking for after the Broncos beat the Ravens in that rainy monday night game.