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Tebow4Ever
03-11-2010, 01:16 AM
Has Mcdaniels recent signings brought any of those that were on the other side of the fence closer to thinking he may be good for us? It seems as though he is seeing the same weaknesses that we,the fans saw at the end of last year when the raiders and chiefs ran for a combined nearly 500 yards in those games. I am a bit confused as to why he chose to cut Peterson today(will we get a cap penalty for that btw)? I am not that high on bringing in McClain as I think we should continue bulking up both sides of the trenches.

Italianmobstr7
03-11-2010, 02:31 AM
No cap=no cap penalty. I think mcd is good for us. I don't want mcclain either.

Shazam!
03-11-2010, 02:40 AM
His moves may be good now but winning is what matters.

If Denver doesnt finish at least 9-7, it doesnt matter to the haters.

I'll tell you what- I couldnt blame them either.

Denver is due for a winning season and moreso SD is definitely LONG overdo for a losing Season.

Dirk
03-11-2010, 06:35 AM
Time to tip the tables back in our direction this year!



The only thing that scares me is little 'ol KC sneaking up ever so quietly. They are doing the right things also. I think the AFC West is going to become a dominate division once again very soon. (minus the Raiders of course)

claymore
03-11-2010, 07:35 AM
It would take years of winning or a time machine to change my mind. This (McD) is the worst era in Broncos history (IMO).

SoCalImport
03-11-2010, 08:05 AM
It would take years of winning or a time machine to change my mind. This (McD) is the worst era in Broncos history (IMO).

Not a very objective statement, all things considered.

Broncos Record by year:
2009 8 8 0
2008 8 8 0
2007 7 9 0

1999 6 10 0

1994 7 9 0

1990 5 11 0

1982 2 7 0

1974 7 6 1
1973 7 5 2
1972 5 9 0
1971 4 9 1
1970 5 8 1
1969 5 8 1
1968 5 9 0
1967 3 11 0
1966 4 10 0
1965 4 10 0
1964 2 11 1
1963 2 1 1
1962 7 7 0
1961 3 11 0
1960 4 9 1

Nomad
03-11-2010, 08:07 AM
It would take years of winning or a time machine to change my mind. This (McD) is the worst era in Broncos history (IMO).

Why is that??

broncofaninfla
03-11-2010, 08:33 AM
I like the Bannon and Willams signings, hate the Arrington and Green signings. I think the defense is better now but the offense is still putrid. I'd prefer addressing the O line with vets but looks like we'll be filling O line spots with rookies which will give all of the people in love with Mcd more excuses on why our running game still sucks. I'm a Broncos fan, not a Shanny fan or Mcd fan. The jury is still out on Mcd for me and it's very early in 2010. I'm still optimistic for this team this season but there are still a lot of needs that need to be addressed.

claymore
03-11-2010, 08:35 AM
Not a very objective statement, all things considered.

Broncos Record by year:
2009 8 8 0 2nd
2008 8 8 0 2nd
2007 7 9 0 2nd

1999 6 10 0 5th

1994 7 9 0 4th

1990 5 11 0 5th

1982 2 7 0 12th

1974 7 6 1 2nd
1973 7 5 2 2nd
1972 5 9 0 3rd
1971 4 9 1 4th
1970 5 8 1 3rd
1969 5 8 1 4th
1968 5 9 0 4th
1967 3 11 0 4th
1966 4 10 0 4th
1965 4 10 0 4th
1964 2 11 1 4th
1963 2 1 1 4th
1962 7 7 0 2nd
1961 3 11 0 3rd
1960 4 9 1 4th

Just being honest. I already dislike him. It will take alot more than 3 free agents to change my mind. Doubt I could ever be objective about the Broncos.

claymore
03-11-2010, 08:38 AM
Why is that??

Just nothing to be excited about. I hate this style of offense. I obviously dislike McDaniels. Our QB is borderline mediocre at best etc... I doubt it would do anyone any good to list all of my negatives though.

But needless to say Ive never been less excited about the Broncos.

frenchfan
03-11-2010, 08:38 AM
Has Mcdaniels recent signings brought any of those that were on the other side of the fence closer to thinking he may be good for us? It seems as though he is seeing the same weaknesses that we,the fans saw at the end of last year when the raiders and chiefs ran for a combined nearly 500 yards in those games. I am a bit confused as to why he chose to cut Peterson today(will we get a cap penalty for that btw)? I am not that high on bringing in McClain as I think we should continue bulking up both sides of the trenches.Well... I'm finally happy a Broncos head coach is doing something about our DL (or front 7 BTW)...
I'm fed up to see broncos D crushed games after games... We had a good start and surprised many people but as soon as teams saw how to attack it we were done...

I think Peterson would have been a good option in the rotation but I guess we have to make some room?

I have no clue about college football and therefore I don't know if McClain is worth it...

Anyway, I'd like to see us going after OL, WR, and may be try to have a steal at QB (but not using our 1st round for that except if the kid really worth it... But in that case, I'm not sure he would last till our #11) and go on adding youth everywhere... Our new DL won't still play for a long time (all are 30+)...

For now, I say good job about the FA (though I didn't get the JJ Arrington's move)...

Northman
03-11-2010, 08:46 AM
Has Mcdaniels recent signings brought any of those that were on the other side of the fence closer to thinking he may be good for us? It seems as though he is seeing the same weaknesses that we,the fans saw at the end of last year when the raiders and chiefs ran for a combined nearly 500 yards in those games. I am a bit confused as to why he chose to cut Peterson today(will we get a cap penalty for that btw)? I am not that high on bringing in McClain as I think we should continue bulking up both sides of the trenches.


For starters, we have no idea who he is going to draft so although i wouldnt mind having a LB with some attitude we just dont know how he is going to go about it on draft day. Secondly, he seems to be paying attention to some problem areas which is good but until we see the actual play on the field its a wait and see approach. So at this point im still in the middle not swaying one way or another until i see the play on the field.

Nomad
03-11-2010, 08:50 AM
Just nothing to be excited about. I hate this style of offense. I obviously dislike McDaniels. Our QB is borderline mediocre at best etc... I doubt it would do anyone any good to list all of my negatives though.

But needless to say Ive never been less excited about the Broncos.

Yeah, I'm not much into garage sales and that's what I think of FA, sometimes you'll find a gem but mostly it's other people's junk they're getting rid of!! I believe every QB we've had in the last 10 yrs has been mediocre (I did like Plummer though) but Orton has his chance to prove himself this year. Well, we'll see what kind of team McDaniels can throw together and he won't have any excuses of 'not enough time'!!

broncophan
03-11-2010, 08:58 AM
Yeah, I'm not much into garage sales and that's what I think of FA, sometimes you'll find a gem but mostly it's other people's junk they're getting rid of!! I believe every QB we've had in the last 10 yrs has been mediocre (I did like Plummer though) but Orton has his chance to prove himself this year. Well, we'll see what kind of team McDaniels can throw together and he won't have any excuses of 'not enough time'!!

I agree about free agents.......it has been proven many times that a mediocre qb can get to the superbowl.......I still say............let McD continue to build HIS team.............

broncofaninfla
03-11-2010, 08:59 AM
I agree about free agents.......it has been proven many times that a mediocre qb can get to the superbowl.......I still say............let McD continue to build HIS team.............

Many times? Other than Dilfer who else?

Dreadnought
03-11-2010, 09:05 AM
Just nothing to be excited about. I hate this style of offense. I obviously dislike McDaniels. Our QB is borderline mediocre at best etc... I doubt it would do anyone any good to list all of my negatives though.

But needless to say Ive never been less excited about the Broncos.

Co-signed. I now hate him enough that mere winning won't fix it; the only thing I want to see from McDaniels now is his letter of resignation. His is a personality type I loathe - loudmouthed, arrogant, abusive, and (IMO) dishonest.

The day they send this jerk packing is the day I can go back to being psyched for a coming Football season.

SoCalImport
03-11-2010, 09:08 AM
Many times? Other than Dilfer who else?

Brad Johnson's the other one.

Anyone looking at the superbowl champs going back to SB1 and it's a who's who of some of the best QBs ever to play.
So, the argument that it doesn't tack an elite QB to win a championship doesn't really stand up. It has happened, but not very often.

I'd love to see an elite QB wearing the orange and blue again. It's been since Elway retired, after all.

Dreadnought
03-11-2010, 09:15 AM
Brad Johnson's the other one.

Anyone looking at the superbowl champs going back to SB1 and it's a who's who of some of the best QBs ever to play.
So, the argument that it doesn't tack an elite QB to win a championship doesn't really stand up. It has happened, but not very often.

I'd love to see an elite QB wearing the orange and blue again. It's been since Elway retired, after all.

Doug Williams was a lifelong mediocrity. Never was that impressed with Namath either. Jim McMahon was nothing special. Ditto Jim Plunkett. Bob Griese was a very good QB, but not a great one

And I might argue Terry Bradshaw won four of 'em as a mediocre QB - esp. if there were Steeler fans around :D.

broncophan
03-11-2010, 09:20 AM
Many times? Other than Dilfer who else?

Well......without looking......
Bledsoe
McNair
Esiason
Rypien
Hostetler
McMahon
Doug Williams
Morton

I am sure there are still MANY others.....

Northman
03-11-2010, 09:21 AM
Co-signed. I now hate him enough that mere winning won't fix it; the only thing I want to see from McDaniels now is his letter of resignation. His is a personality type I loathe - loudmouthed, arrogant, abusive, and (IMO) dishonest.

The day they send this jerk packing is the day I can go back to being psyched for a coming Football season.

Wow. That is some hatred there.

broncofaninfla
03-11-2010, 09:25 AM
Well......without looking......
Bledsoe
McNair
Esiason
Rypien
Hostetler
McMahon
Doug Williams
Morton

I am sure there are still MANY others.....

Everyone of the QB's you mentioned were far better than Orton.

Dreadnought
03-11-2010, 09:25 AM
Wow. That is some hatred there.

I am probably more radical than Claymore on this subject, just less vocal about it :D

Nomad
03-11-2010, 09:28 AM
I am probably more radical than Claymore on this subject, just less vocal about it :D

Why is that, let it all out about McDaniels, I'm curious to hear what he has done to make him such a bad guy??

broncophan
03-11-2010, 09:33 AM
Everyone of the QB's you mentioned were far better than Orton.

That would be a good debate.......but I never said Orton was better than any of them....:confused:

You threw the name,Dilfer,out there .....and asked "who else".....so I gave you many other names.....

Dreadnought
03-11-2010, 09:44 AM
Why is that, let it all out about McDaniels, I'm curious to hear what he has done to make him such a bad guy??

I don't want to belabor the point, because we've talked about it so much of it already - but very briefly. First and foremost I think he is dishonest. I also detest the kind of loudmouthed sideline posturing he does, berating players publicly etc. I don't like or respect that kind of leader even a little bit. Other folks may like the style, I do not. I dislike his approach to personel management, his treatment of guys like Mike Leach, etc. To me that said volumes - it was a clear message to the locker room that they did not matter and would not be judged fairly or objectively, according to their talents, effort, or dedication. Pure cronyism would rule the day, and decisions would be made first and foremost with a mind to justifying McDaniels decisions and strengthening his hand rather than the good of the team. Rather like a Wonderland trial; sentence first, verdict after. This then loops back to his basic dishonesty.

He ran the team in 2009 as a weak and immature man, far out of his depth. He could not command the team's respect, and he lost my respect for good over the last four weeks or so

broncophan
03-11-2010, 09:52 AM
I don't want to belabor the point, because we've talked about it so much of it already - but very briefly. First and foremost I think he is dishonest. I also detest the kind of loudmouthed sideline posturing he does, berating players publicly etc. I don't like or respect that kind of leader even a little bit. Other folks may like the style, I do not. I dislike his approach to personel management, his treatment of guys like Mike Leach, etc. To me that said volumes - it was a clear message to the locker room that they did not matter and would not be judged fairly or objectively, according to their talents, effort, or dedication. Pure cronyism would rule the day, and decisions would be made first and foremost with a mind to justifying McDaniels decisions and strengthening his hand rather than the good of the team. Rather like a Wonderland trial; sentence first, verdict after. This then loops back to his basic dishonesty.

He ran the team in 2009 as a weak and immature man, far out of his depth. He could not command the team's respect, and he lost my respect for good over the last four weeks or so

That is all good.....and we all have our own opinions......but I wonder what your thoughts were after week 6 of last season....

Dreadnought
03-11-2010, 10:00 AM
That is all good.....and we all have our own opinions......but I wonder what your thoughts were after week 6 of last season....

I was slowly coming around. I had originally been a big supporter of McD; he was my first choice to succeed Shanahan after all. His personel decisions, management skills, and draft in 2009 had me convinced I was wrong about that by opening day. After the six wins I was willing to consider he might be on to something. I still didn't think much of Orton, or of Knowshon Moreno, or the offensive scheme in general, but he had certainly brought in a real live D coordinator after watching the horrors of Jim Bates and Bob Slowick. I still thought we had taken a major step backwards offensively, but the D had covered that up and carried us

Nomad
03-11-2010, 10:16 AM
Well, you have some solid points Dread! I'm glad to hear it's not solely on the Cutler Saga (which personnally I was glad to see him gone because I didn't like him either) and most emotional fans here who hate mcDaniels base it off that, but the Mike Leach deal was a head scratcher. McDaniels has another year to gain supporters. Inexperienced, rookie, or whatever name people want to throw at McDaniels, he is the HC so I hope he does well because that means success for the BRONCOS!!

Dreadnought
03-11-2010, 10:34 AM
Well, you have some solid points Dread! I'm glad to hear it's not solely on the Cutler Saga (which personnally I was glad to see him gone because I didn't like him either) and most emotional fans here who hate mcDaniels base it off that, but the Mike Leach deal was a head scratcher. McDaniels has another year to gain supporters. Inexperienced, rookie, or whatever name people want to throw at McDaniels, he is the HC so I hope he does well because that means success for the BRONCOS!!

I think you have to view the Cutler deal in context of everything else. Because I don't believe McDaniels in general I am not inclined to look charitably on his handling of that situation either. After all, we all of us got to listen to McD try and tell us that Lamont Jordan at number 3 on the depth chart "gave us our best chance to win." Did anybody on planet Earth believe that apart from LaMont's Mom - and maybe not even her! :lol:

He just says this stuff, thats all. Whatever he thinks will justify his whims

claymore
03-11-2010, 10:37 AM
I think you have to view the Cutler deal in context of everything else. Because I don't believe McDaniels in general I am not inclined to look charitably on his handling of that situation either. After all, we all of us got to listen to McD try and tell us that Lamont Jordan at number 3 on the depth chart "gave us our best chance to win." Did anybody on planet Earth believe that apart from LaMont's Mom - and maybe not even her! :lol:

He just says this stuff, thats all. Whatever he thinks will justify his whims

He is a weasel. IMO we cant move fwd till the day he is fired.

Northman
03-11-2010, 10:48 AM
He is a weasel. IMO we cant move fwd till the day he is fired.

Certainly a possibility. I felt that way when Phillips was in charge.

Lonestar
03-11-2010, 11:07 AM
Bitter bitter folks

Frankly I like his no nonsense POV and think that previous coaches were no better and much worse in the control department.

As for leach. I was not getting the change at first. But after hearing the reviews of Paxton after the fact I have zero issues with it.

I fail to understand why everyone has a problem with him bringing in some players that did not have to be taught everything from word one about the scheme in stalled. Think of them as on the field player coaches, if they helped at all last year to make the tranistion, I just do not understand what is wrong with that

Mike brought in leaders when he came to town players he was comfortable with. Were Y'all uptight with that also?

Bet when Eddie was signed everyone was saying WTF is he doing.

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

claymore
03-11-2010, 11:13 AM
Bitter bitter folks

Frankly I like his no nonsense POV and think that previous coaches were no better and much worse in the control department.

As for leach. I was not getting the change at first. But after hearing the reviews of Paxton after the fact I have zero issues with it.

I fail to understand why everyone has a problem with him bringing in some players that did not have to be taught everything from word one about the scheme in stalled. Think of them as on the field player coaches, if they helped at all last year to make the tranistion, I just do not understand what is wrong with that

Mike brought in leaders when he came to town players he was comfortable with. Were Y'all uptight with that also?

Bet when Eddie was signed everyone was saying WTF is he doing.

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel
Mike was a much more accomplished coach and a product of Denver. He had my trust from the get go. If his first move was to trade Elway, then no, I would have hated him to.

Lancane
03-11-2010, 11:35 AM
The moves the team has made are solid, but not astounding. I think they are doing what he can to solidify the defensive line because they know that they can not do all they need to with the draft alone. But there are more important positions that I feel the team has not filled that can not be done through the draft, such as signing a starting center. Overall most of the moves will help the team get better.

As for if it changes my mind about McDaniels, the answer is not even close...I feel he has what it takes to be a coach, I respect him as such. But as for what he and Xanders have done while in the drivers seat of this team, not so good IMHO. Between the Cutler-saga and the Marshall issue, I feel he is trying too damn hard to be a Belichick clone instead of himself, which has literally ruined our offense, and great the defense has improved...but it is still not enough for me. He still has a chance to change my mind, I do hope he pulls it together, but right now I do not see it happening. He is too headstrong, much like Shanahan was, and without being somewhat humble and realizing that it takes talent to win in this league; not sure he will do so with the time he has left.

Dreadnought
03-11-2010, 11:36 AM
Mike was a much more accomplished coach and a product of Denver. He had my trust from the get go. If his first move was to trade Elway, then no, I would have hated him to.

Well, comparing Elway and Cutler ain't the same thing, so its not the best case. No, for me McD proved he is a weakling and a fake when he embarrassed his subordinates publicly - on more than one occassion. Any man who would do that is incapable of leading and unworthy of either respect or loyalty. They are best removed from any position of authority ASAP. You want to blast a guy? Fine. Good. Needs doing sometimes. You do that stuff behind closed doors.

claymore
03-11-2010, 11:46 AM
Well, comparing Elway and Cutler ain't the same thing, so its not the best case. No, for me McD proved he is a weakling and a fake when he embarrassed his subordinates publicly - on more than one occassion. Any man who would do that is incapable of leading and unworthy of either respect or loyalty. They are best removed from any position of authority ASAP. You want to blast a guy? Fine. Good. Needs doing sometimes. You do that stuff behind closed doors.

IMO Cutler may be better than Elway. He is smarter, makes less mistakes, and is just as athletic. Whether it develops inot a HOF career noone can predict. But Elway wasnt a HOF lock until Mike got brought us the 2 SB wins.

That isnt the sole reason I dislike McD, but it is the main reason.

Traveler
03-11-2010, 11:57 AM
IMO Cutler may be better than Elway. He is smarter, makes less mistakes, and is just as athletic. Whether it develops inot a HOF career noone can predict. But Elway wasnt a HOF lock until Mike got brought us the 2 SB wins.

That isnt the sole reason I dislike McD, but it is the main reason.

You are so bad!:doh:

Love the sarcasm.

yardog
03-11-2010, 12:03 PM
IMO Cutler may be better than Elway. He is smarter, makes less mistakes, and is just as athletic. Whether it develops inot a HOF career noone can predict. But Elway wasnt a HOF lock until Mike got brought us the 2 SB wins.

That isnt the sole reason I dislike McD, but it is the main reason.

I wouldn't say Cutler was better than Elway but I do think he was the franchise QB we had been waiting on for 10 years to replace Elway and I think MCD let his ego and system over talent mentality cost us another 10 years.

T.K.O.
03-11-2010, 12:04 PM
IMO Cutler may be better than Elway. He is smarter, makes less mistakes, and is just as athletic. Whether it develops inot a HOF career noone can predict. But Elway wasnt a HOF lock until Mike got brought us the 2 SB wins.

That isnt the sole reason I dislike McD, but it is the main reason.

i heard that jamarcus russell is better than elway too.....:laugh:

claymore
03-11-2010, 12:11 PM
I wouldn't say Cutler was better than Elway but I do think he was the franchise QB we had been waiting on for 10 years to replace Elway and I think MCD let his ego and system over talent mentality cost us another 10 years.

Its an unpopular opinion of course. Going off of individual statistics in the 1st 4 years it is a fact though.

But you are correct, this franchise was set back. Maybe even longer than ten years. 23 years seperated Elway and Cutlers rookie year. Our grandkids could be college graduates by the time we get another one.

T.K.O.
03-11-2010, 12:49 PM
Its an unpopular opinion of course. Going off of individual statistics in the 1st 4 years it is a fact though.

But you are correct, this franchise was set back. Maybe even longer than ten years. 23 years seperated Elway and Cutlers rookie year. Our grandkids could be college graduates by the time we get another one.

i would be willing to bet that alot of qb's out performed elway in the 1st 4 years....that does not make them hofers or even close to what elway accomplished.
basically rivers,rodgers and maybe 6 other active qbs would be "better than elway" if you choose the 1st 4 years as a benchmark.
its gonna be 8-10 years until we have any idea if any of them are "better":salute:

claymore
03-11-2010, 12:56 PM
i would be willing to bet that alot of qb's out performed elway in the 1st 4 years....that does not make them hofers or even close to what elway accomplished.
basically rivers,rodgers and maybe 6 other active qbs would be "better than elway" if you choose the 1st 4 years as a benchmark.
its gonna be 8-10 years until we have any idea if any of them are "better":salute:

Cutler out performed pretty much everyone but Marino.

Manning, Montana, Elway, Aikman, etc...

Traveler
03-11-2010, 01:07 PM
Cutler out performed pretty much everyone but Marino.

Manning, Montana, Elway, Aikman, etc...

You're killing me man!:lol:

Ravage!!!
03-11-2010, 01:24 PM
. But Elway wasnt a HOF lock until Mike got brought us the 2 SB wins.



This I'll disagree with you on. Yes he was. Everyone knew Elway was a HoFer before the Super Bowls.... which actually made him a sentimental favorite in that first Super Bowl (around the nation) because people wanted him to win the trophy since it was the one thing the HoF QB hadn't accomplished yet. :beer:

Dreadnought
03-11-2010, 01:29 PM
This I'll disagree with you on. Yes he was. Everyone knew Elway was a HoFer before the Super Bowls.... which actually made him a sentimental favorite in that first Super Bowl (around the nation) because people wanted him to win the trophy since it was the one thing the HoF QB hadn't accomplished yet. :beer:

I would only qualify that by saying that years of drudgery in a Dan Reeves offense had made it unclear to me if Elway was going to be a HOFer. That all turned around when Wade Phillips replaced Reeves and we adopted a real live pro passing game. Phillips wasn't the real answer of course, but I think he did revive Elways career before Shanahan started to work his magic in 1995.

claymore
03-11-2010, 01:36 PM
You're killing me man!:lol:
Statistically its true Traveler. All other opinions are based off of opinions and legends.

This I'll disagree with you on. Yes he was. Everyone knew Elway was a HoFer before the Super Bowls.... which actually made him a sentimental favorite in that first Super Bowl (around the nation) because people wanted him to win the trophy since it was the one thing the HoF QB hadn't accomplished yet. :beer:

That wasnt the experience I have had. I left Co in 96. Very few NFL fans thinks Elway is a NFL great.

Colorado residents and Bronco fans have an eleveated respect of Elway that others do not share.

Ravage!!!
03-11-2010, 01:57 PM
That wasnt the experience I have had. I left Co in 96. Very few NFL fans thinks Elway is a NFL great.

Colorado residents and Bronco fans have an eleveated respect of Elway that others do not share.

I respect your opinion on this, I just think you are wrong with the "elevated opinion" part. Elway isn't considered the greatest to play the game simply because he won the Super Bowls at the end of his career.

I don't live in Denver.. and live in Chief country. So it wasn't like I lived around a bunch of people that loved John. But was always thought of as a HOF'er... especially with those in the media. But hey, to which their own.

:lol: I just think you lived around a bunch of Elway haters! ::D :beer:

frenchfan
03-12-2010, 02:49 AM
Statistically its true Traveler. All other opinions are based off of opinions and legends.


That wasnt the experience I have had. I left Co in 96. Very few NFL fans thinks Elway is a NFL great.

Colorado residents and Bronco fans have an eleveated respect of Elway that others do not share.F*** the stats or play madden/fantasy !

So, using your reasoning, Orton > Cutler... better record ! Aren't they stats too?

You don't win games with stats... Elway didn't have a great supporting cast and had to play with Reeves system (which helps or not for the stats)... It was well known that Elway brang average teams to SB... What about Cutler? This guy has ZERO leadership compared to #7.... ELway made his teamates better... Jay only pouts and whines...
Sure Jay has all the tools to be an elite QB. No doubt about that...
Now, who will you trust to win a game if it was for your life? Cutler or Elway????
Damn... I would bet on John in a heart beat...

As for NFL fans... yeah, sure... So why so many people thinks Elway is one of the best ever (even BEFORE his 2 wins)? Only his last 2 years made him? :confused: :laugh:
Ask Joe Montana what he thinks about Elway (prior his SB wins)... But sure, he has no clue about football either...
Many people knew Elway was the main reason Broncos were respected in the 80's... And if you ask any people who are the best QB of the 80's they would say Montana, Elway and Marino... They were all HoFs for sure.

Last, as we talk about stats or facts... Elway had his 1st SB and The Drive in his 4th year... What about Jay Cutler?

:coffee:

Timmy!
03-12-2010, 02:59 AM
Wow. Let the haters hate I suppose. Personally I like the guy, I think he's going to be a fine head coach for many, many years. I'd like to see him be a bit more humble, and sure hope he has learned from his mistakes (at least he admits me made them), but he was a rookie. 2010 will be the real test of McD, for better or worse. In the end we'll all find out together.

Timmy!
03-12-2010, 03:03 AM
Clay, your raging Cutler boner is showing, again.

Sincerely,
MO

T.K.O.
03-12-2010, 10:01 AM
Cutler out performed pretty much everyone but Marino.

Manning, Montana, Elway, Aikman, etc...

if you consider interceptions=performing:laugh:

claymore
03-12-2010, 10:37 AM
F*** the stats or play madden/fantasy !

So, using your reasoning, Orton > Cutler... better record ! Aren't they stats too?

You don't win games with stats... Elway didn't have a great supporting cast and had to play with Reeves system (which helps or not for the stats)... It was well known that Elway brang average teams to SB... What about Cutler? This guy has ZERO leadership compared to #7.... ELway made his teamates better... Jay only pouts and whines...
Sure Jay has all the tools to be an elite QB. No doubt about that...
Now, who will you trust to win a game if it was for your life? Cutler or Elway????
Damn... I would bet on John in a heart beat...

As for NFL fans... yeah, sure... So why so many people thinks Elway is one of the best ever (even BEFORE his 2 wins)? Only his last 2 years made him? :confused: :laugh:
Ask Joe Montana what he thinks about Elway (prior his SB wins)... But sure, he has no clue about football either...
Many people knew Elway was the main reason Broncos were respected in the 80's... And if you ask any people who are the best QB of the 80's they would say Montana, Elway and Marino... They were all HoFs for sure.

Last, as we talk about stats or facts... Elway had his 1st SB and The Drive in his 4th year... What about Jay Cutler?

:coffee:
I think Elway had a much better team than Cutler had. This theory about Elway having shit teams, and over coming Reeves as a head coach is BS.

Everyone makes the same argument. But its simply not true. The only thing Cutler had was better RB's. Oh wait no he didnt!


if you consider interceptions=performing:laugh:
Elway had more turnovers than TD's over 16 years. He had more INT's than TD's after his first four. And he had 5 years of the 16 that had more INT's than TD's.

Cutler has never had a year as close to as bad as Elway has.

Cutlers Best individual year is far better than Elways best Individual year.

That is a fact.

If you hate on Cutler for turning the ball over, than you must really hate Elway. He was a turn over machine. But I guess that was Dan Reeves fault.

T.K.O.
03-12-2010, 10:46 AM
I think Elway had a much better team than Cutler had. This theory about Elway having shit teams, and over coming Reeves as a head coach is BS.

Everyone makes the same argument. But its simply not true. The only thing Cutler had was better RB's. Oh wait no he didnt!


Elway had more turnovers than TD's over 16 years. He had more INT's than TD's after his first four. And he had 5 years of the 16 that had more INT's than TD's.

Cutler has never had a year as close to as bad as Elway has.

Cutlers Best individual year is far better than Elways best Individual year.

That is a fact. :laugh:

If you hate on Cutler for turning the ball over, than you must really hate Elway. He was a turn over machine. But I guess that was Dan Reeves fault.


somebody needs a history lesson.......here ya go

In 1979, Elway was drafted out of high school by the Kansas City Royals to play baseball in the MLB.
In the 1981 summer draft, he was the first selection of the New York Yankees. The following year he hit .314 and a club-high 24 runs while playing for the Oneonta, New York single-A farm club.
In the 1983 NFL draft, he was selected as the 1st overall pick by the Baltimore Colts and on May 2 was traded to the Denver Broncos.
On January 11, 1987, Elway executed "The Drive", a miracle five-minute, 15-play, 98-yard touchdown drive in the AFC Championship against the Cleveland Browns to tie the game, leading to an overtime win by field goal for the Broncos. It included six passes made (nine attempted), five rushes and an eight-yard sack. He was named the NFL Most Valuable Player and the AFC Offensive MVP.
In 1991, he became the only quarterback to pass for over 3,000 yards and rush for over 200 yards in the same season for seven consecutive seasons.
He was named the AFC Offensive MVP in 1993 when he passed for over 4,000 yards and 25 touchdowns.
In 1997, he led the Broncos to their first ever Super Bowl win in Super Bowl XXXII. His three previous attempts in Super Bowls XXI, XXII, and XXIV were unsuccessful.
On January 31, 1999, in Super Bowl XXXIII he passed for 336 yards in a 34-19 victory over the Atlanta Falcons. Elway was named the Super Bowl MVP.
He was selected to the Pro Bowl nine times during his 16 seasons with the Broncos.
Over his professional career, he led his teams to a record 47 fourth quarter comebacks.
He led the NFL all-time list with 148 wins as a starting quarterback. He was also sacked 516 times, more than any other quarterback.
At retirement, Elway's 300 career touchdown passes placed him third behind Dan Marino and Fran Tarkenton.
He was only the second quarterback to pass for at least 3,000 yards in 12 seasons.
On January 31, 2004, he was elected into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

claymore
03-12-2010, 10:51 AM
somebody needs a history lesson.......here ya go

In 1979, Elway was drafted out of high school by the Kansas City Royals to play baseball in the MLB.
In the 1981 summer draft, he was the first selection of the New York Yankees. The following year he hit .314 and a club-high 24 runs while playing for the Oneonta, New York single-A farm club.
In the 1983 NFL draft, he was selected as the 1st overall pick by the Baltimore Colts and on May 2 was traded to the Denver Broncos.
On January 11, 1987, Elway executed "The Drive", a miracle five-minute, 15-play, 98-yard touchdown drive in the AFC Championship against the Cleveland Browns to tie the game, leading to an overtime win by field goal for the Broncos. It included six passes made (nine attempted), five rushes and an eight-yard sack. He was named the NFL Most Valuable Player and the AFC Offensive MVP.
In 1991, he became the only quarterback to pass for over 3,000 yards and rush for over 200 yards in the same season for seven consecutive seasons.
He was named the AFC Offensive MVP in 1993 when he passed for over 4,000 yards and 25 touchdowns.
In 1997, he led the Broncos to their first ever Super Bowl win in Super Bowl XXXII. His three previous attempts in Super Bowls XXI, XXII, and XXIV were unsuccessful.
On January 31, 1999, in Super Bowl XXXIII he passed for 336 yards in a 34-19 victory over the Atlanta Falcons. Elway was named the Super Bowl MVP.
He was selected to the Pro Bowl nine times during his 16 seasons with the Broncos.
Over his professional career, he led his teams to a record 47 fourth quarter comebacks.
He led the NFL all-time list with 148 wins as a starting quarterback. He was also sacked 516 times, more than any other quarterback.
At retirement, Elway's 300 career touchdown passes placed him third behind Dan Marino and Fran Tarkenton.
He was only the second quarterback to pass for at least 3,000 yards in 12 seasons.
On January 31, 2004, he was elected into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.Thats half of the story. Look up his poor completion percentage, his INT's and his fumbles.

T.K.O.
03-12-2010, 10:52 AM
so.....the 3 amigos were better than marshall royal and stokely ?

T.K.O.
03-12-2010, 10:55 AM
Thats half of the story. Look up his poor completion percentage, his INT's and his fumbles.

if you are simply willing to discount the grit,guts and heart.all the 4th qtr comebacks and the determination to practically single handedly lead a team to many superbowls....i guess your right cutler (a qb who has'nt even been able to muster a winning season) is better,and by your standards has only joe montana left on his list to become the greatest qb of ALL TIME !:shocked::lol::laugh:

claymore
03-12-2010, 10:58 AM
so.....the 3 amigos were better than marshall royal and stokely ?

If we are going to cherry pick years lets look at Elways SB years when he had Sharpe McCaffery and Smith. All of those guys were better than what Cutler will probably ever have. And Cutler still had better numbers.

Also dont forget Watson who put up equal or better numbers than Marshall early in his career.

claymore
03-12-2010, 11:01 AM
if you are simply willing to discount the grit,guts and heart.all the 4th qtr comebacks and the determination to practically single handedly lead a team to many superbowls....i guess your right cutler (a qb who has'nt even been able to muster a winning season) is better,and by your standards has only joe montana left on his list to become the greatest qb of ALL TIME !:shocked::lol::laugh:

You have the luxury of arguing with hindsight. Try just looking at elway thru the first 4-5 years only.

He looked like shit compared to Cutler.

T.K.O.
03-12-2010, 11:13 AM
You have the luxury of arguing with hindsight. Try just looking at elway thru the first 4-5 years only.

He looked like shit compared to Cutler.

now your just being silly:laugh:
cutler is fast aproaching the mid point in his career and has yet to have a winning season and by most accounts is regressing rather than improving.
he does'nt have the skills,intelligence,leadership or guts of elway.


and no cutler has done nothing to make elway "look like shit":confused::lol:
you do know that "wins" are a stat as well....dont you?


here's something you NEED to read....
maybe it will help you understand why elway will more than likely be remembered decades after cutler is sent to his 3rd or 4th team and forgotten.


John Elway: It starts with the arm, that magnificent right arm that delivered passes long, short, from impossible angles, off the wrong foot and while he was lying down, falling down, kneeling and running left or right.

It was unfailingly dependable for 16 NFL seasons, the scourge of defensive backs and the architect of numerous magic moments. It was the go-to weapon in a sizable arsenal, the one that most likely would fire when everything was on the line.

It seemed to be that way forever, from John Elway's early days as a record-setting Stanford quarterback to his selection as the No. 1 overall draft pick of 1983 and his career as the unflappable field general of the Denver Broncos.

The arm was good enough to earn him a minor league contract with the New York Yankees and to break the hearts of Cleveland Browns fans in the 1986 postseason with The Drive, the 98-yard march that epitomized Elways reputation as one of the greatest comeback quarterbacks of all time. Elway's other skills were overshadowed but no less feared.

He lulled opponents to sleep with that blond, blue-eyed All-American boy look, his big, white teeth permanently displayed by a fixed half-smile.

Then he would run them ragged as he scrambled away from danger, his quick feet gaining valuable time for receivers to get open.

The physical skills were complemented by a great understanding of his offense, a commanding field presence and a competitive fire that burned hottest when a game was on the line.

Elway finished the 1998 season ranked second all time in passing yards (51,475) and third in touchdown passes (300), but his career probably will be measured more by the consecutive Super Bowl wins he delivered after the 1997 and 1998 seasons.

A nine-time Pro Bowl selection, Elway also pushed three less-talented Broncos teams to Super Bowl appearances that ended in one-sided defeats.

Lancane
03-12-2010, 11:18 AM
Well this sure has left the topic of this thread...

As to the argument of McDaniels...Fact remains that McDaniels has done an overall mediocre job thus far, beyond his cause to the effect of the Cutler and Marshall Sagas', he has proven he can dismantle one of the league's best offenses, that he is a fairly bad judge in quarterback talent, he's good at alientating players who he does not want and even above that he can improve the defense with the right staff. And besides that, he has proven very little, and what he has done has warranted enough for those in and around the league to look on him in a bad light and to be scrutinized continuously, not a very positive position to be in. Hopefully he can turn it around, but as of yet I can not say he will or will not.

In regards to the Cutler, Elway and Orton debate...it's simple, Elway is better then Cutler and far better then Orton. Actually, Orton's numbers are due to the system and not his overall ability, which should prove that Cutler is far better then him. The spread systems are quarterback friendly and makes quarterbacks look better then they are, and the only two pro quarterbacks have really found success within the system, most have failed in similar schemes. While you can hide a quarterback's weaknesses with the system, the one variable is that to have success in it, one needs to be able to make all the throws including the long ball, that is why Orton will never be more then a stop-gap journeyman quarterback here in Denver. I would take Brady Quinn and a plethura of other mediocre quarterbacks over Orton, especially if they had the capability to throw the long pass.

CoachChaz
03-12-2010, 11:24 AM
Fouts and Marino had craz stats...how many SB's did they win? I'll take the "mediocre" QB that knows how to win over the guy that cna throw for 4000 yards and 40 TD's on a shitty team any day of the week.

Elway and Montana were never great statistical QB's, but they won games. That's all that matters.

Dreadnought
03-12-2010, 11:24 AM
You have the luxury of arguing with hindsight. Try just looking at elway thru the first 4-5 years only.

He looked like shit compared to Cutler.

A couple of points of disagreement, though I understand your main point which is that we tend to grant retroactive Sainthood for #7 - perhaps more than was in all cases warranted! He was often terrible for 58 minutes and would pull games out of his ass late. Maybe competitive fire, maybe it took him that long to focus, I don't know.

I disagree that Cutler had worse RB's tha Elway. Sorry, but Sammy Winder was a stiff...I have a soft spot for him, and he was perhaps better than Knownshon Moreno, but pretty much a stiff nonetheless ;) I will always hold we were in decent enough shape RB-wise until this past year.

Elway never had an O-line anywhere near as good as Cutler's until the last 3 years of his career. I also think that for the early part of his career his receiving corps wasn't up to what we had in place 06-09, though I'll grant Watson was superb back in the very first years. In particular until Shannon Sharpe arrived Elway was forced play with an assortment of skillet handed clods at TE.

Now, that being said...John Elway never had to play with a defense anywhere near as bad as what Jay Cutler was forced to serve alongside. Few pro QB's not named Archie Manning have

T.K.O.
03-12-2010, 11:42 AM
Thats half of the story. Look up his poor completion percentage, his INT's and his fumbles.

elway had 65 int's and they dont have the fum stats at nfl.co back that far
but cutler has had 63 int's and 20 fumbles,i dont see how that makes elway a bumbling loser and cutler the greatest thing since pampers.
but i guess we just have 2 very different ideas about what makes an nfl qb "great":salute:

and for the record i was a very big supporter of cutler until he whined his way out of denver,i do think he has the tools to be one of the best,whether or not he learns to use those tools properly has yet to be seen.i just dont see him anywhere near the mark set by guys like elway at this point.

claymore
03-12-2010, 01:16 PM
now your just being silly:laugh:
cutler is fast aproaching the mid point in his career and has yet to have a winning season and by most accounts is regressing rather than improving.
he does'nt have the skills,intelligence,leadership or guts of elway.


and no cutler has done nothing to make elway "look like shit":confused::lol:
you do know that "wins" are a stat as well....dont you?


here's something you NEED to read....
maybe it will help you understand why elway will more than likely be remembered decades after cutler is sent to his 3rd or 4th team and forgotten.


John Elway: It starts with the arm, that magnificent right arm that delivered passes long, short, from impossible angles, off the wrong foot and while he was lying down, falling down, kneeling and running left or right.

It was unfailingly dependable for 16 NFL seasons, the scourge of defensive backs and the architect of numerous magic moments. It was the go-to weapon in a sizable arsenal, the one that most likely would fire when everything was on the line.

It seemed to be that way forever, from John Elway's early days as a record-setting Stanford quarterback to his selection as the No. 1 overall draft pick of 1983 and his career as the unflappable field general of the Denver Broncos.

The arm was good enough to earn him a minor league contract with the New York Yankees and to break the hearts of Cleveland Browns fans in the 1986 postseason with The Drive, the 98-yard march that epitomized Elways reputation as one of the greatest comeback quarterbacks of all time. Elway's other skills were overshadowed but no less feared.

He lulled opponents to sleep with that blond, blue-eyed All-American boy look, his big, white teeth permanently displayed by a fixed half-smile.

Then he would run them ragged as he scrambled away from danger, his quick feet gaining valuable time for receivers to get open.

The physical skills were complemented by a great understanding of his offense, a commanding field presence and a competitive fire that burned hottest when a game was on the line.

Elway finished the 1998 season ranked second all time in passing yards (51,475) and third in touchdown passes (300), but his career probably will be measured more by the consecutive Super Bowl wins he delivered after the 1997 and 1998 seasons.

A nine-time Pro Bowl selection, Elway also pushed three less-talented Broncos teams to Super Bowl appearances that ended in one-sided defeats.
Winning is a statistic. But it cant be tied to one single person on a 53 man team.

Elway looks better on the surface of the argument because we can use his whole career to support that argument.

I am saying on a purely statistical level Cutler out performed Elway in almost every individual statistic.

I cant argue grits determination and awesomeness. Because the retort would be "Huh uh"


A couple of points of disagreement, though I understand your main point which is that we tend to grant retroactive Sainthood for #7 - perhaps more than was in all cases warranted! He was often terrible for 58 minutes and would pull games out of his ass late. Maybe competitive fire, maybe it took him that long to focus, I don't know.

I disagree that Cutler had worse RB's tha Elway. Sorry, but Sammy Winder was a stiff...I have a soft spot for him, and he was perhaps better than Knownshon Moreno, but pretty much a stiff nonetheless ;) I will always hold we were in decent enough shape RB-wise until this past year.

Elway never had an O-line anywhere near as good as Cutler's until the last 3 years of his career. I also think that for the early part of his career his receiving corps wasn't up to what we had in place 06-09, though I'll grant Watson was superb back in the very first years. In particular until Shannon Sharpe arrived Elway was forced play with an assortment of skillet handed clods at TE.

Now, that being said...John Elway never had to play with a defense anywhere near as bad as what Jay Cutler was forced to serve alongside. Few pro QB's not named Archie Manning have
I dont think winder was much worse than what Cutler had to work with as far as RB's.

Also Cutlers awesome line he had... Aint so awesome with another QB behind it.


elway had 65 int's and they dont have the fum stats at nfl.co back that far
but cutler has had 63 int's and 20 fumbles,i dont see how that makes elway a bumbling loser and cutler the greatest thing since pampers.
but i guess we just have 2 very different ideas about what makes an nfl qb "great":salute:

and for the record i was a very big supporter of cutler until he whined his way out of denver,i do think he has the tools to be one of the best,whether or not he learns to use those tools properly has yet to be seen.i just dont see him anywhere near the mark set by guys like elway at this point.

Go to http://www.pro-football-reference.com it has ever stat you will ever want.

Dreadnought
03-12-2010, 02:10 PM
I dont think winder was much worse than what Cutler had to work with as far as RB's.

Also Cutlers awesome line he had... Aint so awesome with another QB behind it.



Go to http://www.pro-football-reference.com it has ever stat you will ever want.

Well, maybe its that, or maybe its age, or maybe, just maybe its that they got forced into playing in a mismatched and ridiculous system. You can't fairly blame that on Orton

claymore
03-12-2010, 02:23 PM
Well, maybe its that, or maybe its age, or maybe, just maybe its that they got forced into playing in a mismatched and ridiculous system. You can't fairly blame that on Orton

According to some they are lineman and should be able to block regardless.

CoachChaz
03-12-2010, 02:28 PM
According to some they are lineman and should be able to block regardless.

If it was a completely different scheme, maybe I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But in case anyone missed it...the ZBS was utilized more than 50% of the time this year. McD's systme does utilize power blocking...but it also has a ton of ZBS. Just listen to guys that played in it in NE and Denver. Ross Tucker was talking about it a few weeks ago and said he cant understand why people complain about this because when he was OL in NE, McD used i alot and still does.

So, there is no excuse that the line didnt handle a transition to a completely new blocking scheme.

claymore
03-12-2010, 02:33 PM
If it was a completely different scheme, maybe I'd give them the benefit of the doubt. But in case anyone missed it...the ZBS was utilized more than 50% of the time this year. McD's systme does utilize power blocking...but it also has a ton of ZBS. Just listen to guys that played in it in NE and Denver. Ross Tucker was talking about it a few weeks ago and said he cant understand why people complain about this because when he was OL in NE, McD used i alot and still does.

So, there is no excuse that the line didnt handle a transition to a completely new blocking scheme.

So it was playcalling?

HORSEPOWER 56
03-12-2010, 02:46 PM
So it was playcalling?

coaching.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 02:53 PM
Many times? Other than Dilfer who else?

Brad Johnson

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 02:55 PM
Brad Johnson's the other one.

Anyone looking at the superbowl champs going back to SB1 and it's a who's who of some of the best QBs ever to play.
So, the argument that it doesn't tack an elite QB to win a championship doesn't really stand up. It has happened, but not very often.

I'd love to see an elite QB wearing the orange and blue again. It's been since Elway retired, after all.

actually...the quote was GET TO the Superbowl...which plenty of mediocre ones have done.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:00 PM
Everyone of the QB's you mentioned were far better than Orton.

which has nothing to do with the point. and no they all aren't FAR better than Orton.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:09 PM
IMO Cutler may be better than Elway. He is smarter, makes less mistakes, and is just as athletic. Whether it develops inot a HOF career noone can predict. But Elway wasnt a HOF lock until Mike got brought us the 2 SB wins.

That isnt the sole reason I dislike McD, but it is the main reason.



I couldn't disagree with you more. Cutler threw 26 INTs this year...over half of which were in the red zone. He also fumbled 9 times. Elway tossed plenty of INTs as well, but he also had leadership ability and took his lumps w/o crying.

And the HOF comment is just perplexing to me.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:13 PM
Its an unpopular opinion of course. Going off of individual statistics in the 1st 4 years it is a fact though.

But you are correct, this franchise was set back. Maybe even longer than ten years. 23 years seperated Elway and Cutlers rookie year. Our grandkids could be college graduates by the time we get another one.

23 years is a bogus number. We had Elway until 1999. You can't count the years that we didn't need a QB in your argument and expect to have any credibility. And add to the fact that a non-drafted QB took us to the AFCCG and I don't get your argument at all. The "savior" is who replaced Jake and we've never been the same.

T.K.O.
03-12-2010, 03:14 PM
Super Bowl 1. Bart Starr (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 2. Bart Starr (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 3. Joe Namath (MVP), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 4. Len Dawson (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 5. John Unitas (Chuck Howley), 1 TD
Super Bowl 6. Roger Staubach (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 7. Bob Griese (Jake Scott), 1 TD
Super Bowl 8. Bob Griese (Larry Csonka), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 9. Terry Bradshaw (Franco Harris), 1 TD
Super Bowl 10. Terry Bradshaw (Lynn Swann), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 11. Ken Stabler (Fred Biletnikoff), 1 TD
Super Bowl 12. Roger Staubach (Harvey Martin & Randy White), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 13. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 14. Terry Bradshaw (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 15. Jim Plunkett (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 16. Joe Montana (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 17. Joe Theismann (John Riggins), 2 TDs,
Super Bowl 18. Jim Plunkett (Marcus Allen), 1 TD
Super Bowl 19. Joe Montana (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 20. Jim McMahon (Richard Dent), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 21. Phil Simms (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 22. Doug Williams (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 23. Joe Montana (Jerry Rice), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 24. Joe Montana (MVP), 5 TDs
Super Bowl 25. Jeff Hostetler (Ottis Anderson), 1 TD
Super Bowl 26. Mark Rypien (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs

add roethlisburger and brees.....many of these qb's would not even be considered "elite" if they had'nt won a sb.
so it works both ways.
you CAN win a sb w/o an elite qb and if you remove the multiple sb winning qb's your odds are about 50/50

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:16 PM
Statistically its true Traveler. All other opinions are based off of opinions and legends.


That wasnt the experience I have had. I left Co in 96. Very few NFL fans thinks Elway is a NFL great.

Colorado residents and Bronco fans have an eleveated respect of Elway that others do not share.

Everyone I talk to in NW PA (Steeler and Brown country) lists him in top 3-5 ALL TIME and many have him as #1 cuz noone could have carried the poor teams he carried to SBs...not even Montana.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:19 PM
I think Elway had a much better team than Cutler had. This theory about Elway having shit teams, and over coming Reeves as a head coach is BS.



Ummm...Cutler took over a team that was in the AFCCG the year before.

claymore
03-12-2010, 03:20 PM
I couldn't disagree with you more. Cutler threw 26 INTs this year...over half of which were in the red zone. He also fumbled 9 times. Elway tossed some INTs, but he also had leadership ability and took his lumps w/o crying.

And the HOF comment is just perplexing to me.

The HOF comment... Nobody knows if Cutler will make it to the HOF or not. Same can be said about Elway after the first 4 years.

You cant say Cutler sucks because he threw interceptions turn turn around and say Elway was great.

Elway is a pompous ass drunk like Cutler was too. He was just never traded by the Broncos.

You guys openly hate Cutler, when he was more like Elway then you realize.

claymore
03-12-2010, 03:22 PM
Ummm...Cutler took over a team that was in the AFCCG the year before.

Look at the team Elway took over! In 82 there was the strike or lockout whatever. But in 81 we finished first in the AFC West!

Elway didnt take over a shit team.

Ravage!!!
03-12-2010, 03:23 PM
44 Super Bowls,

I count

1) Stabler
2) Plunkett
3) McMahon
4) D. Williams
5) Hostetler (yet team was led by Simms)
6) Rypien
7) Dilfer
8) Johnson
9) Eli Manning

So tell me again how winning a Super Bowl is 50/50 with the likes of Orton's????? :confused: Even one of these QBs won more than one Super Bowl.

Having a top QB doesn't mean you WILL win the Super Bowl, and not having one doesn't mean you WON'T. But if you want to be contenders, each and every year..... you better have one. Its rare to win one without them, especially when the game is getting to be more and more a passing league. You BETTER have a damned good one to be serious contenders.

I don't want to "hope" we get the kind of year that can support a lame QB. I don't want to have to build such a strong defense, that we can 'live' with having the Ortons of the NFL. I would much rather have a top QB, and an "good enough" defense.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:27 PM
The HOF comment... Nobody knows if Cutler will make it to the HOF or not. Same can be said about Elway after the first 4 years.

You cant say Cutler sucks because he threw interceptions turn turn around and say Elway was great.

Elway is a pompous ass drunk like Cutler was too. He was just never traded by the Broncos.

You guys openly hate Cutler, when he was more like Elway then you realize.

Don't change your argument...you said he wasn't a lock until he got the rings...not after 4 years.

I actually don't like Elway. he was a dick to his family after the limelight went away. BUT ON THE FIELD...he made plays to win games. Cutty makes plays that cost his team. His redzone turnovers are the most alarming to me. That tells me he can't handle the real pressure.

NameUsedBefore
03-12-2010, 03:27 PM
Stabler, Manning, Williams and McMahon are pretty solid QB's IMO. At least I would not rank them along the likes of Johnson and Dilfer.

claymore
03-12-2010, 03:29 PM
Everyone I talk to in NW PA (Steeler and Brown country) lists him in top 3-5 ALL TIME and many have him as #1 cuz noone could have carried the poor teams he carried to SBs...not even Montana.

Go back and look at the those teams. There was some pretty good teams sprinkled in there.

Ravage!!!
03-12-2010, 03:32 PM
Ummm...Cutler took over a team that was in the AFCCG the year before.

you mean he took over a team, 12 games into the season, after a season that went to the AFC Championship. But going by this logic, how is it that so many teams don't even make the playoffs after losing the Super Bowl? Seems every year, the Super Bowl losing team doesn't even go post season, so why is it you are somehow throwing this into the face of a rookie QB tht took over for a team that got crushed in the previous AFCCG?

claymore
03-12-2010, 03:35 PM
Don't change your argument...you said he wasn't a lock until he got the rings...not after 4 years.

I actually don't like Elway. he was a dick to his family after the limelight went away. BUT ON THE FIELD...he made plays to win games. Cutty makes plays that cost his team. His redzone turnovers are the most alarming to me. That tells me he can't handle the real pressure.

I dont have specifics on Elways turnovers. I dont have percentages of where they are at or at what point of the game they were in. Nor do I possess that with Cutler. I would love to see the comparison though.

Yes Ive said he wasnt a lock until he got his rings. I believe that. And I remember it being an issue at the time. He was the guy that couldnt win the big one.


We have the greatest TE ever, Sharpe and he just got passed over twice.

T.K.O.
03-12-2010, 03:35 PM
there are currently 32 teams all playing for 1 championship....so the odds will never be 50/50 unless you get to the big dance.
but peyton manning is widely considered the best qb in the game....how many rings does he have?uno
that tells me that even if the broncos had the best qb in the league its still a once in a decade shot for most teams.
sure i would like to have a great qb under center for the broncos,but we dont and neither do most teams.
so its up to the rest of the team to excell and play better than the other guys.
so what i'm saying is we have as good a chance with orton as we had with cutler or plummer or greaseball,brister etc...
so i'm not gonna sit around and bash the qb we DO have and whine about who we DON'T have.
i'm just going to expect the team to over-acheive and beat the snot outta their opponents next year,like i do every year:salute:

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:36 PM
Go back and look at the those teams. There was some pretty good teams sprinkled in there.

I agree that he had more talent than given credit for, but who really stood out? Dennis Smith, Meck, who else who really scared anyone. How many HOFers did he play w/ in the 80s? They were solid teams, but w/o Elway's intangibles and talent, they are 1 and done teams in the playoffs, if they even get there. Again, SOLID. Not great by any means.

Ravage!!!
03-12-2010, 03:37 PM
I know there is no way to prove this.. but Elway was absolutely a HoF'er before he won the Super Bowls. There was not if/and/buts about that. Just as Marino was a HoFer when he only went to 1 super Bowl and lost.. Elway was considered to be one of the greatest to play even after losing 3.

The Super Bowls... simply made it hard for people to use that "he never won a SB ring" against him when talking about the GREATEST to play the game.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:38 PM
you mean he took over a team, 12 games into the season, after a season that went to the AFC Championship. But going by this logic, how is it that so many teams don't even make the playoffs after losing the Super Bowl? Seems every year, the Super Bowl losing team doesn't even go post season, so why is it you are somehow throwing this into the face of a rookie QB tht took over for a team that got crushed in the previous AFCCG?

But what was the team's record when he took over. Now Shanny is as much to blame for making the dumbass decision to pull Jake, but the point ios the talent on the field. Denver had talent. Denver was well on their way to the playoffs (and another loss to Indy I'm sure), but they were still pretty damn good til Shanny screwed it all up by playing Cutler.

Ravage!!!
03-12-2010, 03:39 PM
How many Pro-bowlers did he have on the offensive side of the ball?

Sharpe is passed over because there has never been a TE voted into the HoF on the first ballot, and the second year was with some amazing talent, along with an over-due Bronco. They weren't going to put 2 Broncos in the same year, out of five.

Ravage!!!
03-12-2010, 03:40 PM
But what was the team's record when he took over. Now Shanny is as much to blame for making the dumbass decision to pull Jake, but the point ios the talent on the field. Denver had talent. Denver was well on their way to the playoffs (and another loss to Indy I'm sure), but they were still pretty damn good til Shanny screwed it all up by playing Cutler.

I disagree. Plummer was playing like SHIT that entire season. He pretty much packed it in after we drafted Cutler. Cutler, as a rookie, INCREASED the points-per-game fro our offense. We lost that year because our defense the second half of the season came back down to earth. I was thrilled with the decision to put Cutler in. Plummer played like crap.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:41 PM
there are currently 32 teams all playing for 1 championship....so the odds will never be 50/50 unless you get to the big dance.
but peyton manning is widely considered the best qb in the game....how many rings does he have?uno
that tells me that even if the broncos had the best qb in the league its still a once in a decade shot for most teams.
sure i would like to have a great qb under center for the broncos,but we dont and neither do most teams.
so its up to the rest of the team to excell and play better than the other guys.
so what i'm saying is we have as good a chance with orton as we had with cutler or plummer or greaseball,brister etc...
so i'm not gonna sit around and bash the qb we DO have and whine about who we DON'T have.
i'm just going to expect the team to over-acheive and beat the snot outta their opponents next year,like i do every year:salute:

I'm still pissed about how the Jake thing was handled. He was more than capable and I fell he was pretty damn good. Yes, his ugly was super ugly, but his good was fantastic. I was never anti-Cutler when he was drafted, but putting him in when we were on a playoff run said to me that Shanny had lost it. JMHO.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:43 PM
I disagree. Plummer was playing like SHIT that entire season. He pretty much packed it in after we drafted Cutler. Cutler, as a rookie, INCREASED the points-per-game fro our offense. We lost that year because our defense the second half of the season came back down to earth. I was thrilled with the decision to put Cutler in. Plummer played like crap.

Cutler threw a pick-6 to give Seattle a win and fumbled snaps in the redzone vs San Fran like it was noones business. he also tossed his famous redzone INT vs SF IIRC. Jake wasn't as goo that year as he was the prior, but he was not costing the team games like Jay did.

Besides, the argument was the TEAM'S talent when Cutty and Elway took over.

dogfish
03-12-2010, 03:45 PM
I agree that he had more talent than given credit for, but who really stood out? Dennis Smith, Meck, who else who really scared anyone. How many HOFers did he play w/ in the 80s? They were solid teams, but w/o Elway's intangibles and talent, they are 1 and done teams in the playoffs, if they even get there. Again, SOLID. Not great by any means.

and let's not forget what a tremendous obstacle reeves' coaching was to overcome. . .


most star QBs have their coaches working FOR them, not AGAINST them. . .

claymore
03-12-2010, 03:48 PM
I agree that he had more talent than given credit for, but who really stood out? Dennis Smith, Meck, who else who really scared anyone. How many HOFers did he play w/ in the 80s? They were solid teams, but w/o Elway's intangibles and talent, they are 1 and done teams in the playoffs, if they even get there. Again, SOLID. Not great by any means.Same can be said about Cutlers teams. Seriously Marshall is the best. But his numbers arent as good as Steve Watsons.

Bailey? Maybe.

no real Bronco greats or NFL Greats that will be remembered in 20 years off of Cutlers teams.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:48 PM
ALSO....I truly believe Shanny planned to sabotage Jake the whole year because he wanted an excuse to play Jay. Look at pass attempts alone. Prior to 2006, Jake never tossed fewer than 28 times per game. In 2006...19.8. why change what got you to the AFCCG? Jake tossed for 4000+ yards in 04 and 3300+ in 05. What was wrong w/ that? Shanny took him out of a rhythym and went strictly to the run.

I love Shanny, but I am also 100% convinced that his stubbornness buried this team. His refusal to get proper defensive help. His attachment to Cutler when Jake had a good thing going, etc.

claymore
03-12-2010, 03:49 PM
and let's not forget what a tremendous obstacle reeves' coaching was to overcome. . .


most star QBs have their coaches working FOR them, not AGAINST them. . .

Reeves took 2 teams to 4 super bowls.

claymore
03-12-2010, 03:51 PM
ALSO....I truly believe Shanny planned to sabotage Jake the whole year because he wanted an excuse to play Jay. Look at pass attempts alone. Prior to 2006, Jake never tossed fewer than 28 times per game. In 2006...19.8. why change what got you to the AFCCG? Jake tossed for 4000+ yards in 04 and 3300+ in 05. What was wrong w/ that? Shanny took him out of a rhythym and went strictly to the run.

I love Shanny, but I am also 100% convinced that his stubbornness buried this team. His refusal to get proper defensive help. His attachment to Cutler when Jake had a good thing going, etc.

Jakes staple was the bootleg when teams stopped buying it, Plummer couldnt adapt.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:54 PM
Same can be said about Cutlers teams. Seriously Marshall is the best. But his numbers arent as good as Steve Watsons.

Bailey? Maybe.

no real Bronco greats or NFL Greats that will be remembered in 20 years off of Cutlers teams.

That offense had Marshall, Rod Smith, Javon Walker (who was great that year and very good prior to his injury). Tatum is marginally better than Winder and crew so that's a wash.

The D had Champ, Al Wilson, John Lynch, DJ, Elvis and the Browns :hi:

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 03:56 PM
Jakes staple was the bootleg when teams stopped buying it, Plummer couldnt adapt.

So they stop throwing altogether? He was best at bootleg, but that's not all he could do. Shanny, the offensive genius, never gave him a chance once he got his new toy.

claymore
03-12-2010, 04:06 PM
That offense had Marshall, Rod Smith, Javon Walker (who was great that year and very good prior to his injury). Tatum is marginally better than Winder and crew so that's a wash.

The D had Champ, Al Wilson, John Lynch, DJ, Elvis and the Browns :hi:
Defenses were comparable. Id say I liked Elways defense better than Cutlers. Rulon Jones, Tom Jackson, Louis Wright, Dennis Smith... Love those guys.

claymore
03-12-2010, 04:08 PM
So they stop throwing altogether? He was best at bootleg, but that's not all he could do. Shanny, the offensive genius, never gave him a chance once he got his new toy.

You could be right. I dont know. There was some animosity between the 2. I dont like Plummer so I never thought much about it.

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 04:11 PM
You could be right. I dont know. There was some animosity between the 2. I dont like Plummer so I never thought much about it.

Same reason I defended the Cutler drafting out of lowly Vandy...If a QB can take the Arizona Cardinals to the playoffs, he's gotta be pretty damn good.

claymore
03-12-2010, 04:15 PM
Same reason I defended the Cutler drafting out of lowly Vandy...If a QB can take the Arizona Cardinals to the playoffs, he's gotta be pretty damn good.

My son was born at Vandy I was a Vandy fan before We drafted Cutler. 2006Draft was one of the happiest days of my life. We got Marshall who I was uber gay for, and Cutler... Doom was just the cherry on top.

Ravage!!!
03-12-2010, 05:22 PM
Cutler threw a pick-6 to give Seattle a win and fumbled snaps in the redzone vs San Fran like it was noones business. he also tossed his famous redzone INT vs SF IIRC. Jake wasn't as goo that year as he was the prior, but he was not costing the team games like Jay did.

Besides, the argument was the TEAM'S talent when Cutty and Elway took over.

HE wasn't costing teams games?? REally? How many INTs did he throw against the Rams that year? I was there... he sucked and cost us that game.

Ravage!!!
03-12-2010, 05:26 PM
So they stop throwing altogether? He was best at bootleg, but that's not all he could do. Shanny, the offensive genius, never gave him a chance once he got his new toy.

Jake couldn't throw from the pocket at all. You eithe rhad to move the pocket, roll him out, or bootleg. Teams were not worried about Jake in the pocket, and planned around it. Plus, that last season... Jake was playing TERRIBLE football. There was no wondering why we didn't have Jake throw the ball more... he was playing very poorly. Once Cutler was drafted, he hung it up.

Dreadnought
03-12-2010, 05:34 PM
Jake couldn't throw from the pocket at all. You eithe rhad to move the pocket, roll him out, or bootleg. Teams were not worried about Jake in the pocket, and planned around it. Plus, that last season... Jake was playing TERRIBLE football. There was no wondering why we didn't have Jake throw the ball more... he was playing very poorly. Once Cutler was drafted, he hung it up.

Agreed - it was as bad a job of QBing as I've seen in a Bronco uniform since Steve Ramsey

Biz1
03-12-2010, 05:40 PM
What amazes me is this conversation focusing on QB's no longer in a Bronco uniform when it appears someone in your organization has lost their collective mind.

Why would Denver suddenly release their 3rd leading tackler who was a bargain in 2010 at just over the vet minimum salary?.:shocked:

SmilinAssasSin27
03-12-2010, 05:53 PM
Ummm...Jake threw for more than 4000 yards and yer saying it ALL came from outside the pocket???

broncobryce
03-12-2010, 06:23 PM
I know there is no way to prove this.. but Elway was absolutely a HoF'er before he won the Super Bowls. There was not if/and/buts about that. Just as Marino was a HoFer when he only went to 1 super Bowl and lost.. Elway was considered to be one of the greatest to play even after losing 3.

The Super Bowls... simply made it hard for people to use that "he never won a SB ring" against him when talking about the GREATEST to play the game.

Plus Elway won a league MVP. I think it was 1987

broncobryce
03-12-2010, 06:27 PM
Looks like I am a little late to THAT party, lol

dogfish
03-12-2010, 06:42 PM
Reeves took 2 teams to 4 super bowls.

i still hate him for running sammy winder up the middle all those times while elway stood and watched. . . .

T.K.O.
03-12-2010, 06:47 PM
anybody got espn insider? could you tell us what this is about if so?

Dean
03-12-2010, 07:41 PM
i still hate him for running sammy winder up the middle all those times while elway stood and watched. . . .


{sarcasm}Yeah, but when it got to third and forever, he let Elway put the ball up. {/sarcasm}

JDL
03-12-2010, 11:15 PM
I like the moves in free agency... as much as you can do in a weak market.

But, I don't that I'll ever respect McD... he just has a personality that divides rather than unites. Truly great leaders find a way to unite teams and make the players and fans believe... I'm not sure (regardless of whether he wins me over) McD can ever win the hearts of the fans, certainly not all and I'm not sure an overwhelming majority will ever really love him. That may not matter to some... winning by any means necessary mentality... but the thing about the team that won the Super Bowl teams... they were a team the fans could really respect... we did it our way... the Denver Broncos way - we had our own identity (didn't try to get a copy cat championship.) It happened by accident honestly... TD changed Shanahan's offense... completely evolved it into a truly balanced monster. Sure you had your flavor of 49ers... but 49ers from early 80s... it was a team the fans could really get behind though... and I see too much controversy and lack of control in the organization now to ever believe that will completely change. And if it doesn't long-term success will never be a reality.. maybe we get lucky and hot for a year... but i want to see a long-term winner in town... sadly that requires a QB... otherwise at the VERY VERY best you are the Ravens who have managed 4 double digit win seasons in the 9 since their Super Bowl... nice but not Peyton Manning or even Donovan McNabb good.

Denver Native (Carol)
03-12-2010, 11:43 PM
I just read thru some of the last posts, and had no idea what the original thread topic was - oh yeah, Mcdaniels FA decisions.:eek:

broncobryce
03-13-2010, 12:09 AM
Shanahan brought the 49'ers philosophy here. I remember fans complaining about that back then. That is, until we won a superbowl.

topscribe
03-13-2010, 12:56 AM
Ummm...Jake threw for more than 4000 yards and yer saying it ALL came from outside the pocket???

It doesn't matter what a QB does on the field in this town.

There are those who will decide for us that the QB stinks . . . :coffee:

-----

Lancane
03-13-2010, 01:47 AM
It doesn't matter what a QB does on the field in this town.

There are those who will decide for us that the QB stinks . . . :coffee:

-----

A statement full of wisdom and truth. Even Elway was not beloved by all, and that is something that is very common in this league. Terry Bradshaw talked about how he was booed nearly as much as cheered for when he commentated on the Steelers' for NFL Films.

Best to hope for is a quarterback that is generally accepted and liked by three-quarters of the fans. Orton, Plummer, Griese and even Cutler did not have that, though Cutler was closer then most.

broncophan
03-13-2010, 07:07 AM
Statistically its true Traveler. All other opinions are based off of opinions and legends.


That wasnt the experience I have had. I left Co in 96. Very few NFL fans thinks Elway is a NFL great.

Colorado residents and Bronco fans have an eleveated respect of Elway that others do not share.

Sorry Claymore.....but I have to disagree.....living here in Browns/Bengals territory........even friends of mine who are browns fans "admit" Elway was a great qb.....they hate him.....but they know he was a great qb....and we all know Elways history against the clowns.

I was at Canton to see Elway's induction into the Hall..........and there was definately an "elevated " respect for Elway.............and he most certainly did not need a SuperBowl win(or 2) to get there............If Jim Kelly,of all people, goes to the hall without a SB win.....then Elway obviously would have,,,

by the way, Carol,............so far I am happy with the F/A signings .....:)

topscribe
03-13-2010, 09:12 AM
A statement full of wisdom and truth. Even Elway was not beloved by all, and that is something that is very common in this league. Terry Bradshaw talked about how he was booed nearly as much as cheered for when he commentated on the Steelers' for NFL Films.

Best to hope for is a quarterback that is generally accepted and liked by three-quarters of the fans. Orton, Plummer, Griese and even Cutler did not have that, though Cutler was closer then most.

Orton's not through yet, my friend. :)

-----

Kaylore
03-13-2010, 09:18 AM
It would take years of winning or a time machine to change my mind. This (McD) is the worst era in Broncos history (IMO).

That's ridiculous. You obviously have no knowledge of Broncos' history to make such an off the wall comment. There are for worse seasons with real debacles by the team in Bronco history. How about the first ten years of the franchise when they muddled around?

One .500 season is hardly "the worst era" in Broncos history. Shanahan was averaging that same record three years leading up to his release. I felt less hope then about getting better than I do know.

Weren't you saying that no free agents would want to come here because they would all hate McDaniels? How'd that work out? I'll agree that if we keep doing this .500 thing we need to look at other options at head coach, but to pretend we're in some kind of dark period historically is just ridiculous.

I remember last year you were doom and glooming us to 3-4 wins. If someone told me after all the cuts, a new system and the third hardest schedule in the league that we would finish 8-8, and the Bears would do worse, I'd take it. Cutler's performance in Chicago, on the field and especially off the field, prove he's mentally soft and McDaniels got the best value for him. This year our schedule should be easier, we'll have better pieces and more familiarity with the system. I think we'll be better. If not, McDaniels will be on the hot seat. Either way, it has hardly been this horrid period of agony. Quit being a drama queen.

Tned
03-13-2010, 09:27 AM
I am probably more radical than Claymore on this subject, just less vocal about it :D

It's a tradition that we have at least one mod that has complete and utter hatred for the current head coach. We know who it was with Shanahan. It's you with McDaniels. I wonder who it will be with the next coach in a year or so.... ;)

Lancane
03-13-2010, 09:37 AM
Orton's not through yet, my friend. :)

-----

Orton will never be accepted in Denver, even some of those who like the guy because of his attitude and approach to the game will admit that. He's too weak as far as arm strength, nor can he make all the throws needed. Also, he can not shoulder the team when a game requires as much. Many have come to realize that he rides the coat-tails of defenses to his much debated win-loss record. We are spoiled, but to the majority of fans including me do not see Orton as a real quarterback, just some journeyman who will be gone within two years...I know you likely want to argue that fact, but to most of us the likes of Elway, Brees, Manning, Farve, Sanchez, Brady and others are real quarterbacks. Hell, I hated Plummer, but even I believe he had more talent and was a better quarterback then Orton.

broncobryce
03-13-2010, 10:30 AM
Orton will never be accepted in Denver, even some of those who like the guy because of his attitude and approach to the game will admit that. He's too weak as far as arm strength, nor can he make all the throws needed. Also, he can not shoulder the team when a game requires as much. Many have come to realize that he rides the coat-tails of defenses to his much debated win-loss record. We are spoiled, but to the majority of fans including me do not see Orton as a real quarterback, just some journeyman who will be gone within two years...I know you likely want to argue that fact, but to most of us the likes of Elway, Brees, Manning, Farve, Sanchez, Brady and others are real quarterbacks. Hell, I hated Plummer, but even I believe he had more talent and was a better quarterback then Orton.

Que the Orton debate. :D

Tned
03-13-2010, 10:31 AM
Well, I had avoided this thread, dreading another good McD/bad McD thread. But, since I can't get back to sleep, I'm dipping my toe in the water.


Well, you have some solid points Dread! I'm glad to hear it's not solely on the Cutler Saga (which personnally I was glad to see him gone because I didn't like him either) and most emotional fans here who hate mcDaniels base it off that, but the Mike Leach deal was a head scratcher. McDaniels has another year to gain supporters. Inexperienced, rookie, or whatever name people want to throw at McDaniels, he is the HC so I hope he does well because that means success for the BRONCOS!!

Once you pull the "emotional fans" card, then you have to bring up the fact that many of the most fervant McDaniels supporters are such, because a.) they hated Shanahan or b.) they are still pissed about Plummer getting benched for Cutler.

Yes, there are some that base McDaneils purely on McDaniels, but the "McD can do no wrong" crowd aren't objective, just like the "McD can do no right" crowd are not objective.

Here are the facts as I see them.

First:

McD screwed the pooch on Cutler. Not just the fact he traded him, but the whole process. Being enamored with his one-hit-wonder Cassel and starting a blow up, which was unreparable. However, I even understand that to a degree, because he worked with Cassel and probably believed he knew his talent better than most others and felt he could help him win in Denver vs. a high risk/high reward gunslinger type QB in Cutler, that not only had diabetese, but reportedly a drinking problem.

However, it is after that initial failed trade attempt (he himself has admitted he didn't just pick up the phone and say no, so don't go there), where I think his inexperience showed. The way he handled things. The public comments made, etc., were not good. The fact he didn't make any real effort to reconcile, shows he didn't want to (his public, defiiant comments show he wasn't serious about reconciling), paying a scrub like Simms, who had been out of football for two years, $3 million a year, also reinforces the belief that he planned on Cutler being gone.

That said, I think he got good value for Cutler, once he decided he didn't want him as his QB.

Second:

The draft. As Bowlen said when discussing the Cutler situation and the draft, "McDaniels made some rookie mistakes." After getting good value for Cutler, to piss it away by trading for Smith was a joke. Yes, it wasn't the first rounder from Chicago, but McDaniels said that he made the trade because he had two first round picks in '10, and since he considered Smith a first round talent, it didn't matter if he used both first rounders in '10, or one in '09 and one in '10.

Some of his other draft choices were questionable, but I don't have major criticism. Besides maybe taking Orakpo over Moreno, there weren't a lot of clear D-line upgrades when our spots came up. Since he didn't see Scheffler as a fit for his offense, Quinn didn't really bother me.

The only real issue was squandering the value from Cutler by burning a first on Smith, when '10 was expected to have a couple powerhouse CB/S coming out that a first could have been used on. Also, having two firsts in '10, would have given the Broncos flexibility to pick up a long term QB option in the '10 draft.

Third:

With one exception (more below), I loved what McDaniels did in training camp. The reports I heard from TC had me VERY excited. The very structured practices that were each designed to accomplish a clear purpose, such as the strip drills, the sideline tackling drills, etc., got me VERY excited that the Broncos would have a more disciplined, fundamentally sound team. I think McDaniels has an incredible football mind, and what he and Nolan did in training camp probably went a long way (with obvious luck) to the 6-0 start.

Later in the season, the team, especially tackling and gap control, fell off quite a bit, but I assume that might have been fatigue. Whether that was a result of practicing in pads 24 or 26 training camp practics, or a result of not having enough depth to rotate players and keep them fresh, I don't know.

Fourth:

While I have no problem with the Marshall suspension, and think Marshall was way out of line with the ball punting incident, what led up to that was poor management by McDaniels.

When you have a guy coming off back-to-back 100 reception seasons, a hip surgery at least partially due to negligence/misdiagnoses by the Broncos doctors/training staff, and who is considered one of the best WR in the league, you don't try and prove you have a bigger dick then him, by putting him on the scout team. Not only putting him on the scout team, but having him run as a punt gunner and a safety on the scout team. That is not only disrespect, but also simply the coach trying to put his number one offensive weapon 'in his place".

As reporters and fans Tweeted, the rest of the offense were laughing and ribbing him as he wa running down field as a scout team, punt gunner, giving him shit, because it's so unuusal for a start player to be in that situation.

This is the type of immature (young, rookie head coach) behavior from McDaniels that I cannot abide. If he thought Marshall was unprepared or not giving his all, then suspend him, or put him on the bench, but to 'show him up' and 'put him in his place' is wrong, IMO.

Fifth:

I think McDaniels showed a lack of creativity and too much stubborness in his play calling. Was it week one or two (when Hillis started his move into the doghouse), when we ran it four times from 1st and goal or so, and turned the ball over on downs, with each of those runs being basically the same. In the post game, he said "we HAVE to be able to convert, so in the same situation, I will do the same thing, until we get it right" or something to that effect. The next week, or week after, we are in the same situation, and run the same innefective plays.

While I agree that the team should be able to punch it in from 1st and goal, the OC needs to also work with what he has. If the team can't, he needs to call a play that will result in seven points, not simply stick to what 'should work'. That's a case of your balls being bigger than your brain.

Further on creativity, he said that teams wouldn't be able to game plan for the Broncos, because if they looked at the five previous weeks of game film, they would see five completely different offenses and have no idea what plays, formations, etc., would be coming up this week. That simply didn't happen. Especially the further the season went on, the more predictable the play calling became.

You cannot make the bubble screen your bread and butter play and expect it to be effective.

Sixth:

I disagree with Dread's comments on McDaniels style. I firmly believe he has an exceptional football mind, and whether it is with the Broncos or another team, he will ultimately be considered a very good, if not great, head coach.

I love his sideline excitement. I love the fact that at press conferences he comes across like a kid living his life-long dream. I don't have a problem with him ripping into Orton or the O-line when they don't execute (I don't like when he has thrown them or coaches under the bus in post game pressers), and it is simply unfortunate when NFL/press microphones pick it up. I don't think he should tone it down on the sideline for fear mics might pick up what he is saying.

I do feel like that do to youth and inexperience, he sometimes says things before thinking that he should never have said (again, speaking of pressers), but overall I love his game day approach, football mind, and honesty and enthusiasm in the pressers.


Jakes staple was the bootleg when teams stopped buying it, Plummer couldnt adapt.

This is a total misconception that many fans have. Teams never stopped the bootleg. After the AFCCG, Shanahan hired his buddy heimerdinger (after Kubiak went to Texas), and they decided to move to more of a pocket-passing, multi-receiver offense. I assume this was done for two reasons, first because that was Heimerdinger's coaching style and belief and second, in preperation for a transition to Cutler.

After going all the way to the AFCCG and being VERY effective with those bootlegs and general play calling in '05, in week 1, play 1 of '06, the gameplan had the bootlegs and misdirection offense gone. I have documented this multiple times with descriptions of every play in the first few games of '06, but from memory, in the first half, or the first game of '06 (Heimerdinger's first game) the Broncos ran ONE bootleg, and it was only stopped because there was a completely unblocked blitzer (a CB that was lined up to the right of the DE or LB on the line) that came in untouched and hit Plummer right as he turned to his right coming out of the play fake.

Other teams didn't stop the bootlegs, the Broncos offensive coordinator did. I am amazed that people have stuck with this "teams took the bootleg away" belief.


So they stop throwing altogether? He was best at bootleg, but that's not all he could do. Shanny, the offensive genius, never gave him a chance once he got his new toy.

As I mentioned above, it might have been partially Cutler and getting ready to transition to Cutler, but it was primarily Heimerdinger taking over the offense from Kubiak and moving the offense more to a multi-wr, no bootlet, shotgun (at times) offense. His complete failure as the OC (technically assistant head coach - offense), was the reason that Shanahan's good friend was 'allowed' to leave to go to the Titans in a lateral or downward move and become their OC. He didn't want to fire his buddy, but Dinger was a complete failure.


Orton will never be accepted in Denver, even some of those who like the guy because of his attitude and approach to the game will admit that. He's too weak as far as arm strength, nor can he make all the throws needed. Also, he can not shoulder the team when a game requires as much. Many have come to realize that he rides the coat-tails of defenses to his much debated win-loss record. We are spoiled, but to the majority of fans including me do not see Orton as a real quarterback, just some journeyman who will be gone within two years...I know you likely want to argue that fact, but to most of us the likes of Elway, Brees, Manning, Farve, Sanchez, Brady and others are real quarterbacks. Hell, I hated Plummer, but even I believe he had more talent and was a better quarterback then Orton.

I don't agree that Orton won't be accepted. Also, he has shown that he has plenty of arm strength. In fact, on many short throws, he shows a lack of touch and throws too hard. He appears to have a stronger arm than Plummer.

What we saw during the season is what the guys that posted TC reports described, and what we heard from people in Chicago. His problem isn't arm strength, but deep ball accuracy. He either throws low bullets and underthrows the receiver or high floaters and overthrows the receiver. He is simply not accurate on the deep ball, but it doesn't appear to be a pure arm strength issue. Whether at this point in his carreer they can fix his technique and making him accurate is a BIG question mark.

On the short and intermediate throws (on those rare occaissions that McDaniels called a play over 5 yards), he showed plenty of zip. No, he doesn't have an Elway or Cutler arm, but it is on par with many very successful QBs.

Ok, that has left me winded. If you made it this far, congratulations on your incredible reading endurance, and excuse the typos, because this is too long for me to go back and proof. :lol:

broncobryce
03-13-2010, 10:44 AM
Simms was the 3rd stringer for the Titans, not out of football IIRC. But overall great post Tned. For the record, I support McD because he is Denver's coach, not because I hated Shanahan, or loved Plummer.
I thought you hated McD, but now I understand your position.

Tned
03-13-2010, 11:12 AM
Simms was the 3rd stringer for the Titans, not out of football IIRC. But overall great post Tned. For the record, I support McD because he is Denver's coach, not because I hated Shanahan, or loved Plummer.
I thought you hated McD, but now I understand your position.

Unfortunately, some posters on here throw labels around like crazy, and as such several have called me a McDaniels hater any time I post a criticism, and wipe from their mind anything positive I say about them (because it doesn't fit how they have pigeon-holed me).

I have never called for his firing, except for making a joke today about with Jr being the Shanny hater, and Dread coming out of the closet as the McD hater, which mod will be the hater of the next head coach a year or two from now. I want him to be successful and think he will be, and I just hope it's with the Broncos.

I DO believe that he is making the mistakes that come with being a VERY young, rookie head coach, and even Mr. Bowlen stated publicly that McDaniels made rookie mistakes in his first offseason.

The same way I supported Plummer as QB, but had no problem pointing out when he made a bone-head play. Or supported Shanahan, but pointed out when I thought he reached in the draft, made a bad hiring decision, etc.

I honestly don't understand how people can be all love or all hate. How they can take positions that a player or coach can do no right, or do no wrong.

I think you're right about Simms being a third stringer the year before, but he had missed close to two years with the Spleen injury, then was a third stringer and I don't believe saw a single snap, and most reporters referred to him as "basically out of football for two or three years" and he was given a pretty healthy contract for a backup QB that hadn't started, or I believe played in, a game in two or three years.

Lancane
03-13-2010, 11:51 AM
Que the Orton debate. :D

lol...

I am not trying to start a debate. Like Tned, I too am one to be critical of the happenings within my favorite football team. Hell, I admit I am that way with football in general because I am a fan of the game overall. Maybe it is the latter reason why I feel the way I do about the moves. Even though I am what the board calls 'Anti-McDaniels', it's more or less that I'm honest to a fault about what I feel and express it openly.

Ravage!!!
03-13-2010, 01:39 PM
Great post, Tned. I think I'm a lot closer to your line of thinking than most would believe.

I know I was VERY excited about the choice for McD when he was first announced as the HC. I know I have stated over and over again that I was concerned about the coaching carousel that would most probably take place after Shanahan's firing.

As of right now, I'm still concerned about that. Its no fun watching the Broncos when you don't like the HC's personality.

Tned
03-13-2010, 01:49 PM
Its no fun watching the Broncos when you don't like the HC's personality.

I have an edge there, I like McD's personality. I get a kick out of him fist pumping on the sidelines; hi-fiving or hugging players; acting like a kid living his dream at pressers.

As I stated earlier, I think due to his youth, inexperience and ego, he has made some mistakes/bad decisions, but by and large I like him and I enjoy watching him on game days, pressers and when I catch him talking on Sirius radio.

If he can grow/improve in the few areas where I think he is messing up, I would love for him to be the Broncos coach for the next 14 years or so, and have a tenure as long or longer than Shanahan.

gregbroncs
03-13-2010, 02:27 PM
Just nothing to be excited about. I hate this style of offense. I obviously dislike McDaniels. Our QB is borderline mediocre at best etc... I doubt it would do anyone any good to list all of my negatives though.

But needless to say Ive never been less excited about the Broncos.I was. I had a hard time watching that bum (Wade) Phillips as coach of my team. He is a terrible coach that is way to timid to be good in this league.

I don't get what MCD has done to put a fan of the Broncos this far into hating him. All his decisions have not been perfect but I am glad Shanny is not still here as his FA decisions were consistently terrible.

T.K.O.
03-13-2010, 03:48 PM
"Elway, Brees, Manning, Farve, Sanchez, Brady":laugh:
one of these names does not belong ....can you guess which one it is ?:confused:
;)

gregbroncs
03-13-2010, 04:24 PM
"Elway, Brees, Manning, Farve, Sanchez, Brady":laugh:
one of these names does not belong ....can you guess which one it is ?:confused:
;)
Farve? :laugh:

Tned
03-13-2010, 04:25 PM
"Elway, Brees, Manning, Farve, Sanchez, Brady":laugh:
one of these names does not belong ....can you guess which one it is ?:confused:
;)

I would guess the one that signed a bigger rookie contract than any of the others signed at any point in their hall of fame (ok, Brees might not be a HOF'r) careers.

Ravage!!!
03-13-2010, 04:51 PM
"Elway, Brees, Manning, Farve, Sanchez, Brady":laugh:
one of these names does not belong ....can you guess which one it is ?:confused:
;)

The one misspelled? :confused:

Ravage!!!
03-13-2010, 04:55 PM
I have an edge there, I like McD's personality. I get a kick out of him fist pumping on the sidelines; hi-fiving or hugging players; acting like a kid living his dream at pressers.

As I stated earlier, I think due to his youth, inexperience and ego, he has made some mistakes/bad decisions, but by and large I like him and I enjoy watching him on game days, pressers and when I catch him talking on Sirius radio.

If he can grow/improve in the few areas where I think he is messing up, I would love for him to be the Broncos coach for the next 14 years or so, and have a tenure as long or longer than Shanahan.

Yeah.. most of it I like. I don't like his personality when it comes to the Napolean Complex.. and thats the part (to me) that is really getting in the way. There is a reason that most (most) young coaches fail in their first HC job. I worry about this, because I feel that we would have lost a lot of really really good talent from the team after he's gone that wouldn't have been gone with someone that handled things.... differently. Then we'll just be looking at our team and going through the merry-go-round of coaches....wondering "what happened?" :noidea: