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View Full Version : Are good NTs really that hard to come by?



UnderArmour
03-09-2010, 09:04 AM
3-4 teams seem to place a premium on nose tackles once they find one, but how valuable and rare are they really? The Jets didn't have that much of a problem against the run after losing Kris Jenkins and rolling with Pouha. The Browns D actually improved after going with Rubin. The 49ers dug up Aubrayo Franklin in FA. Although the Packers spent a 1st rounder on BJ Raji, they had someone on the roster in Pickett who was successful.

To me, it seems like the NT is a difficult position to evaluate just like offensive guard is. The idea is to tie up blockers and take double teams, not necessarily wreak havoc and open up running lanes by beating the center every play. Maybe I'm just underestimating how valuable the position is but I can't really find any other rational explanation to how the Chargers(Okay, bad example, Shonn Greene lit them up bad), Browns, Jets, Packers, 49ers and us(well, at the beginning) played well on D without using some highly touted guy.

I'm not saying an elite NT doesn't help a defense(Haloti Ngata being the prime example, the Ravens D benefits greatly from his play), but it doesn't seem like we're about to invest a high draft pick in that position for a few years. Good NTs just don't seem to be that hard to find if even the lowly Browns had a great player sitting on the bench.

Shazam!
03-09-2010, 01:10 PM
When your DLine is very solid and your front seven is goood overall even someone like Fields can shine surrounded by the right guys. That's why when the NYJ lost Kris it didnt hurt them too much, their defense is much, much better than it's given credit for.

Denver is deficient on defense upfront as usual.

When Phillips grabbed Ted Washington in the early 90's, it was thought that their DLIne would be a beast and he'd help the rush. But he was out there backed by horrible LBs with only 2 real standouts in the front seven (Fletcher and Goose) and Denver got smoked left and right.

WARHORSE
03-09-2010, 01:14 PM
3-4 teams seem to place a premium on nose tackles once they find one, but how valuable and rare are they really? The Jets didn't have that much of a problem against the run after losing Kris Jenkins and rolling with Pouha. The Browns D actually improved after going with Rubin. The 49ers dug up Aubrayo Franklin in FA. Although the Packers spent a 1st rounder on BJ Raji, they had someone on the roster in Pickett who was successful.

To me, it seems like the NT is a difficult position to evaluate just like offensive guard is. The idea is to tie up blockers and take double teams, not necessarily wreak havoc and open up running lanes by beating the center every play. Maybe I'm just underestimating how valuable the position is but I can't really find any other rational explanation to how the Chargers(Okay, bad example, Shonn Greene lit them up bad), Browns, Jets, Packers, 49ers and us(well, at the beginning) played well on D without using some highly touted guy.

I'm not saying an elite NT doesn't help a defense(Haloti Ngata being the prime example, the Ravens D benefits greatly from his play), but it doesn't seem like we're about to invest a high draft pick in that position for a few years. Good NTs just don't seem to be that hard to find if even the lowly Browns had a great player sitting on the bench.

Well said.

Could it be more about 11 individual players carrying out their responsibilities and playing within a scheme?

I think continuity is a big factor as well.

You dont see a lot of turnover on good defenses from year to year.

Playing together also allows the players to get to know each others strengths and weaknesses, allowing them to make subtle adjustments naturally in their minds.

jmo:coffee:

Broncolingus
03-09-2010, 01:23 PM
GP, Under...:salute:

Well said and agree.

I think the 'how good is player x' is - more often than not - indicative of how the surrounding cast is - esp. on the lines.

Ziggy
03-09-2010, 01:48 PM
1. The 2 most successful franchises over the last decade are the Pittsburgh Steelers and the New England Patriots. Both used thier franchise tags on thier 3-4 NT's, and then signed them to contract extensions.

2. There were 7 franchise tags used this season. 4 of them were used on 3-4 NT's.

3. Defensive genius and architect of the Orange Crush D, Joe Collier says that the NT is the single most important guy in a 3-4 D.

You can find a great NT anywhere in the draft and FA, but that can be said about every position. If you run a 3-4 D, and you think there's a possible star available, you draft them when and where you can.

broncobryce
03-09-2010, 01:53 PM
I think a dominating player at any position is hard to find, and unfortunetely Jamal Williams isn't that anymore.

Italianmobstr7
03-09-2010, 02:17 PM
1. The 2 most successful franchises over the last decade are the Pittsburgh Steelers and the New England Patriots. Both used thier franchise tags on thier 3-4 NT's, and then signed them to contract extensions.

2. There were 7 franchise tags used this season. 4 of them were used on 3-4 NT's.

3. Defensive genius and architect of the Orange Crush D, Joe Collier says that the NT is the single most important guy in a 3-4 D.

You can find a great NT anywhere in the draft and FA, but that can be said about every position. If you run a 3-4 D, and you think there's a possible star available, you draft them when and where you can.

And just to add to what you've put, even most of the successful teams this year and last year have either really good, or great NT. Here's some examples:

Saints: Sedrick Ellis
Vikings: Kevin Williams, Pat Williams
Steelers(08): Casey Hampton
Titans(08): Albert Haynesworth
Patriots: Vince Wilfork
Cardinals: Darnell Dockett
Dolphins(08): Jason Ferguson
Ravens: Haloti Ngata

There are a few in the league, but the best ones are very hard to find. There's a reason that Haynesworth got 100 mill, and Wilfork was just given $40 mil guaranteed. These guys are the anchors of a Dline and they are hard to find. Also anyone saying that Jamal Williams is done really has no idea. No one has seen him play for a year so it's kind of hard to establish that. He played just fine in 08. He is a little older, but put in the right rotation the guy can still be very good even at his age.

Ziggy
03-09-2010, 02:22 PM
I think a dominating player at any position is hard to find, and unfortunetely Jamal Williams isn't that anymore.

He may not be in his prime, and he missed last season with a tricepts injury. The last 3 seasons that he played, he played as well as any NT in the league.

2006-2008 Jamal Williams- tackles-164 | sacks- 3.5 | PD- 7 |FF- 1
2006-2008 Vince Wilfork - tackles-164 | sacks- 5.0 | PD- 4 |FF- 0
2006-2008 Casey Hampton tackles -95 | sacks- 1.5 | PD- 2 | FF-1

I'm not putting Ngata in because he plays different positions in the front. I'm also not saying that Williams' age is not a concern, although he's less than a year older than Hampton. If last year's injury would have been to his knees I would be a bit more concerned, but it actually gave his knees a full year's rest, and decreased the wear and tear on his body. He may be done, and he may not, but nothing in his play ever stated that he was. If he checks out well on the physical, I hope the FO does what it takes to get him in here.

TXBRONC
03-09-2010, 03:05 PM
3-4 teams seem to place a premium on nose tackles once they find one, but how valuable and rare are they really? The Jets didn't have that much of a problem against the run after losing Kris Jenkins and rolling with Pouha. The Browns D actually improved after going with Rubin. The 49ers dug up Aubrayo Franklin in FA. Although the Packers spent a 1st rounder on BJ Raji, they had someone on the roster in Pickett who was successful.

To me, it seems like the NT is a difficult position to evaluate just like offensive guard is. The idea is to tie up blockers and take double teams, not necessarily wreak havoc and open up running lanes by beating the center every play. Maybe I'm just underestimating how valuable the position is but I can't really find any other rational explanation to how the Chargers(Okay, bad example, Shonn Greene lit them up bad), Browns, Jets, Packers, 49ers and us(well, at the beginning) played well on D without using some highly touted guy.

I'm not saying an elite NT doesn't help a defense(Haloti Ngata being the prime example, the Ravens D benefits greatly from his play), but it doesn't seem like we're about to invest a high draft pick in that position for a few years. Good NTs just don't seem to be that hard to find if even the lowly Browns had a great player sitting on the bench.

The nose tackles that are going to tie mutiple blockers are the guys that can't be handled one on one. Just being big doesn't mean it's going to take more than one blocker to handle the guy. If that's case then all we need to do is put Chris Baker in starting line up.

TXBRONC
03-09-2010, 03:12 PM
When your DLine is very solid and your front seven is goood overall even someone like Fields can shine surrounded by the right guys. That's why when the NYJ lost Kris it didnt hurt them too much, their defense is much, much better than it's given credit for.

Denver is deficient on defense upfront as usual.

When Phillips grabbed Ted Washington in the early 90's, it was thought that their DLIne would be a beast and he'd help the rush. But he was out there backed by horrible LBs with only 2 real standouts in the front seven (Fletcher and Goose) and Denver got smoked left and right.

Washington was lazy.

CrazyHorse
03-09-2010, 08:44 PM
Some say it's easier to run good 3-4 because you only need to find one great NT where in a 4-3 you need to find two premier DE's.

nevcraw
03-09-2010, 09:28 PM
I think a dominating player at any position is hard to find, and unfortunetely Jamal Williams isn't that anymore.

so what did you see when you broke down all that film on William's? :tsk:

CrazyHorse
03-09-2010, 09:43 PM
so what did you see when you broke down all that film on William's? :tsk:

Bad knees in the X-Ray? :laugh:

Lonestar
03-09-2010, 09:50 PM
Good to great NT's are almost never allowed to hit FA, same goes for DT's the only ones that get loose are those that are over the hill and their teams have a replacement on the shelf.

Great ones are just as critical to the franchise as a QB is IMHO. and there are way many more QB hitting the market each year than are NT coming out of college.

Almost all of them are converted DT's.

Lets hope that this year we either pick one up in the draft or develop one on the roster all ready. In fact I could stand to have two on the roster considering that we play at altitude 8 games a year.

JDL
03-10-2010, 01:28 AM
3-4 teams seem to place a premium on nose tackles once they find one, but how valuable and rare are they really? The Jets didn't have that much of a problem against the run after losing Kris Jenkins and rolling with Pouha. The Browns D actually improved after going with Rubin. The 49ers dug up Aubrayo Franklin in FA. Although the Packers spent a 1st rounder on BJ Raji, they had someone on the roster in Pickett who was successful.

To me, it seems like the NT is a difficult position to evaluate just like offensive guard is. The idea is to tie up blockers and take double teams, not necessarily wreak havoc and open up running lanes by beating the center every play. Maybe I'm just underestimating how valuable the position is but I can't really find any other rational explanation to how the Chargers(Okay, bad example, Shonn Greene lit them up bad), Browns, Jets, Packers, 49ers and us(well, at the beginning) played well on D without using some highly touted guy.

I'm not saying an elite NT doesn't help a defense(Haloti Ngata being the prime example, the Ravens D benefits greatly from his play), but it doesn't seem like we're about to invest a high draft pick in that position for a few years. Good NTs just don't seem to be that hard to find if even the lowly Browns had a great player sitting on the bench.

Not hard at all... just hard to develop... Jason Ferguson... Kelly Gregg... What is hard about it is that you don't need a guy with a ton of talent.... you need a guy with the size and the right mind-set to do the dirty work. Ravens have done it for years. Bill Parcells always finds journeymen guys with the right mindset.

JDL
03-10-2010, 01:36 AM
Good to great NT's are almost never allowed to hit FA, same goes for DT's the only ones that get loose are those that are over the hill and their teams have a replacement on the shelf.

Great ones are just as critical to the franchise as a QB is IMHO. and there are way many more QB hitting the market each year than are NT coming out of college.

Almost all of them are converted DT's.

Lets hope that this year we either pick one up in the draft or develop one on the roster all ready. In fact I could stand to have two on the roster considering that we play at altitude 8 games a year.

Kelly Gregg was a UDFA

Jason Ferguson has bounced around teams

Jay Ratliff late round pick.

Everyone seems to be under the mistaken impression that you need to spend high draft picks to get these guys... those are some of the very best actually... but there performances tend to be as anonymous as their names... you have exceptions like Hampton and the only reason Wilfork is a NT is because they had Seymour... I wouldn't be shocked AT ALL to see him kicked out DE and Brace inserted at the NT position. You don't need a big guy with great athleticism in that role... it is a waste of talent.... you need a guy who doesn't mind doing the dirty work and has the size to take on double-teams... then you have to train them... the training is the hardest part... the actual guys? they're available every single year .. and we actually have one... Chris Baker is 100% a pure prototypical NT... if we'd just take the time to develop him like the great 3-4 teams do.

atwater27
03-10-2010, 01:44 AM
Just look at the Broncos for an answer to the DT question. There is only one defensive tackle that i think was great for the Broncos. Trevor Pryce. That's it. As far as NT goes, I think it is by far the most important position on D. Unfortunately, even if you find one, good luck
A. Keeping him healthy
B. Keeping him happy with his wages.

Ziggy
03-10-2010, 01:54 AM
Just look at the Broncos for an answer to the DT question. There is only one defensive tackle that i think was great for the Broncos. Trevor Pryce. That's it. As far as NT goes, I think it is by far the most important position on D. Unfortunately, even if you find one, good luck
A. Keeping him healthy
B. Keeping him happy with his wages.

You must either be young, or have forgotten about Rubin Carter.

atwater27
03-10-2010, 02:01 AM
You must either be young, or have forgotten about Rubin Carter.

Good call. I was in a crib. Apparently he was the anchor of the Orange Crush. :salute:

I hear Bud McFadin wasn't half bad either.

Spiritguy
03-10-2010, 02:26 PM
Kelly Gregg was a UDFA

Jason Ferguson has bounced around teams

Jay Ratliff late round pick.


Furguson is interesting to me. This past week he got an 8 game suspension and then just got resigned by the Dolphins.

atwater27
03-10-2010, 02:42 PM
Maybe we could nab Linval Joseph or Cam Thomas later and develop them.

Lonestar
03-10-2010, 03:05 PM
Kelly Gregg was a UDFA

Jason Ferguson has bounced around teams

Jay Ratliff late round pick.

Everyone seems to be under the mistaken impression that you need to spend high draft picks to get these guys... those are some of the very best actually... but there performances tend to be as anonymous as their names... you have exceptions like Hampton and the only reason Wilfork is a NT is because they had Seymour... I wouldn't be shocked AT ALL to see him kicked out DE and Brace inserted at the NT position. You don't need a big guy with great athleticism in that role... it is a waste of talent.... you need a guy who doesn't mind doing the dirty work and has the size to take on double-teams... then you have to train them... the training is the hardest part... the actual guys? they're available every single year .. and we actually have one... Chris Baker is 100% a pure prototypical NT... if we'd just take the time to develop him like the great 3-4 teams do.

Your correct but If you really look at the LONG term NT you will see that most are first day choices.

DO you really think that ratlif will be a premier NT in 4 years?

Do you think that if he was not surrounded by the players he is that he would be that good else where?

Seymour was the ORginal NT in NE then wilfork came on the scene and he was kicked out to DE, then of course they drafted Brace who can spell him there as well as replace him. They have a plan and that is taking day one and in most cases 1st rounders there consistently since Bill came to town. When they run through their rookie contracts they have another one in the pipeline almost ready to go that was why they have been able to get high draft choices for them when the time comes.

Let me add that I think that Baker who should have been a first rounder had he not had issues at Penn state, he may be the long term answer but is extremely raw only playing really two years of college ball. One of which was at Hampton college where he excelled against lesser talent across from him.