View Full Version : Is Cutler a top 10 QB yet?
BOSSHOGG30
03-25-2008, 01:51 PM
I was reading through a thread on another site and after reading it I was wondering if Cutler is in fact a top 10 QB right now in this league.
No special Order... Would you have Culter in the top 10 or even top 5?
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Tony Romo
5. Carson Palmer
6. Drew Brees
7. Jay Cutler
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Marc Bulger
10. David Garrard
11. Donovan McNabb
12. David Anderson
13. Matt Schaub
14. Chad Pennington
15. Eli Manning
LRtagger
03-25-2008, 01:54 PM
I would say he is a top 10, definitely. You can make an argument for top 5, but until he leads a team deep into the playoffs, it would be hard to place him above the guys that have.
claymore
03-25-2008, 01:56 PM
On my quick list I would have him at 9 with Bulger and Mcnabb ahead of him. I think he will rise to the top 5 in the next year or two though.....
BOSSHOGG30
03-25-2008, 01:57 PM
I think I would place in the top 8.
There own elite class
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
Very Good but not elite.
3. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Carson Palmer
5. Drew Brees
6. Donovan McNabb (when healthy)
Up and coming
7. Tony Romo (might be a little over-rated, and I would have to think that if Culter was in the Cowboys offense he would be better than Romo)
8. Jay Cutler
Flatinum
03-25-2008, 02:03 PM
I was reading through a thread on another site and after reading it I was wondering if Cutler is in fact a top 10 QB right now in this league.
No special Order... Would you have Culter in the top 10 or even top 5?
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Tony Romo
5. Carson Palmer
6. Drew Brees
7. Jay Cutler
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Marc Bulger
10. David Garrard
11. Donovan McNabb
12. David Anderson
13. Matt Schaub
14. Chad Pennington
15. Eli Manning
I agree on this list as it currently stands(although I wouldn't have put Romo that high). But looking a head there's no one on the list other than Brady and Manning that Culter will be ranked below after the next couple seasons.
claymore
03-25-2008, 02:04 PM
I think I would place in the top 8.
There own elite class
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
Very Good but not elite.
3. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Carson Palmer
5. Drew Brees
6. Donovan McNabb (when healthy)
Up and coming
7. Tony Romo (might be a little over-rated, and I would have to think that if Culter was in the Cowboys offense he would be better than Romo)
8. Jay Cutler
Bulger has to go in there too, last year was because of Pace being out.
topscribe
03-25-2008, 02:04 PM
On my quick list I would have him at 9 with Bulger and Mcnabb ahead of him. I think he will rise to the top 5 in the next year or two though.....
Agreed on McNabb and Bulger. I also would have Cutler above Roethlisberger,
and Rivers would not be in the top 10, IMO.
I need more convincing on Roethlisberger because of his major choking in
the postseason and his subpar sophomore season.
Mine might look like this:
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Carson Palmer
4. Tony Romo
5. Donovan McNabb
6. Drew Brees
7. Marc Bulger
8. Jay Cutler
9. Ben Roethlisberger
10. Eli Manning
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LRtagger
03-25-2008, 02:06 PM
I agree. B-Ro is very overrated
tubby
03-25-2008, 02:22 PM
I'll let him have a winning season first before I call him top 10.
I saw Pennington in there and couldn't help but to discard the rest of your list.
Talentwise, yes, Cutler is a top 10 QB.
Accomplishment wise, no.
BOSSHOGG30
03-25-2008, 02:38 PM
I saw Pennington in there and couldn't help but to discard the rest of your list.
Talentwise, yes, Cutler is a top 10 QB.
Accomplishment wise, no.
I just threw together a list... If you didn't read... in no special order... that was the hint... Guys like Bulger, Young, Jackson and so on are listed... you can put your own list together. I didn't even put them in order of best to worst.
MHCBill
03-25-2008, 02:42 PM
Cutler is a top 10 QB today... when he leads the team deep into the playoffs he'll be a top 5 QB.
End of story.
BOSSHOGG30
03-25-2008, 02:47 PM
Cutler is a top 10 QB today... when he leads the team deep into the playoffs he'll be a top 5 QB.
End of story.
That is what I'm thinking... Pretty good for such a young guy. Hopefully he can keep improving.
Once upon a time there was a quarterback named Cutler. He was a top 10 quarterback. The End.
Watchthemiddle
03-25-2008, 03:38 PM
I would say No.
He needs to accomplish something first and stop making rookie mistakes first.
mclark
03-25-2008, 04:27 PM
No. He needs to take us to the playoffs first. But he's close. Next year we'll need to see him take another step up.
mclark
03-25-2008, 04:34 PM
I think I would place in the top 8.
There own elite class
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
Very Good but not elite.
3. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Carson Palmer
5. Drew Brees
6. Donovan McNabb (when healthy)
Up and coming
7. Tony Romo (might be a little over-rated, and I would have to think that if Culter was in the Cowboys offense he would be better than Romo)
8. Jay Cutler
I think Eli Manning passed Jake C this year.
8. Eli Manning
9. Matt Hasselbeck
10. who?
Cutler's close. So's David Garrard.
D1g1tal j1m
03-25-2008, 04:42 PM
Talent-wise along with his moxie, he is near the top of the list, but he needs to start making better decisions in his reads. I would put him in the top 10 (only because there are so few quality starting QB's out there) but he is at the bottom of the 10.
Brady, Payton, Brees, Big Ben, McNabb, Eli (because of the SB win), Romo, Palmer, Rivers (a constant playoff team), & Cutty. With a more consistent running game and better pass protection, Jay should have a really great year and move up the list.
yardog
03-25-2008, 04:54 PM
1) Payton
2) Brady
3)Palmer
4)Roethlisberger
5)Brees
6)McNabb
7)Eli Manning
8)Hasselbeck
9)
10)
I see the following QB's as the possible last 2 of the top 10.
Cutler
Romo
Rivers
Bulger
Garrard
underrated29
03-25-2008, 04:57 PM
GUYS rivers and eli are WAYYYY overrated. trust me, you will see next year. They might have better tds and more yards, but they will also have more ints and less complete %
no order well maybe a lil' but still off top of my head.
peyton
brady
palmer
brees
bulger
mcnabb
romo
rothlisberger
cutler
gerrard (huge sleeper!)
hasselback
schaub
eli
VY
rivers
I didnt rank anderson, as he has only one season, but if i had too i would put him somewhere around the rothlisberger range
DenBronx
03-25-2008, 05:14 PM
some of you guys are putting average qb's into a top ten list it seems purely based upon how good their team is. when you look at overall qb play and skill then yeah cutler is a top 8 qb. rivers is an example...the dude sucks but he has a really good nucleaus around him...its almost impossible not to win games and that makes him look like a good qb. then some of you are severely underating romo....he is a top 4 qb. eli is average but he did do something special in the playoffs...so you have to put him in the middle of the pack somewhere.
oh, and i have no clue why young and pennington are even being mentioned right now. chad has never had that fighters heart and his arm is soft. young is very overated and also one demensional. i think id rather have cleo lemon as my qb. :coffee:
Krugan
03-25-2008, 05:15 PM
Good grief guys, Cutler is very rough yet, and isnt in the op 10 in the league.
Its okay to be a homer, but every now and then reality needs to have a peak or two.
He still makes poor reads, throws off his back foot far to often,forces plays that dont need to be made...
Top 20 yes, top 1/3rd of the league, maybe in a couple years when he matures, or we get an oline that can actually form a pocket.
Watchthemiddle
03-25-2008, 05:20 PM
Good grief guys, Cutler is very rough yet, and isnt in the op 10 in the league.
Its okay to be a homer, but every now and then reality needs to have a peak or two.
He still makes poor reads, throws off his back foot far to often,forces plays that dont need to be made...
Top 20 yes, top 1/3rd of the league, maybe in a couple years when he matures, or we get an oline that can actually form a pocket.
:congrats:
DenBronx
03-25-2008, 05:20 PM
Good grief guys, Cutler is very rough yet, and isnt in the op 10 in the league.
Its okay to be a homer, but every now and then reality needs to have a peak or two.
He still makes poor reads, throws off his back foot far to often,forces plays that dont need to be made...
Top 20 yes, top 1/3rd of the league, maybe in a couple years when he matures, or we get an oline that can actually form a pocket.
when you look at his qb average/stats and overall skill then i can make an argument against your statement. but when you look at his win vs loss column then i would have to agree. the simple fact is our o-line sucked last year and cutler really didnt have enough time. give him some solid protection and some weapons then i think this kid will be a top 5 qb in the near future.
Watchthemiddle
03-25-2008, 05:30 PM
when you look at his qb average/stats and overall skill then i can make an argument against your statement. but when you look at his win vs loss column then i would have to agree. the simple fact is our o-line sucked last year and cutler really didnt have enough time. give him some solid protection and some weapons then i think this kid will be a top 5 qb in the near future.
Top 5 in the near future would put him up there with Brady, Manning, and Roth. For the sake of Broncos nation, that would be wonderful, but I would take top 15 at this point.
For Cutler to be a top 10 or even top 5, he needs to win games regardless of who is around him. Much like Elway did for years. He needs to carry this team on his back, stop the high school mistakes that he still makes and improve in all areas.
Give him a few complete seasons first, and then maybe crack the top 10.
topscribe
03-25-2008, 05:35 PM
Good grief guys, Cutler is very rough yet, and isnt in the op 10 in the league.
Its okay to be a homer, but every now and then reality needs to have a peak or two.
He still makes poor reads, throws off his back foot far to often,forces plays that dont need to be made...
Top 20 yes, top 1/3rd of the league, maybe in a couple years when he matures, or we get an oline that can actually form a pocket.
I guess if a player is a member of the Denver Broncos, he is to be downgraded.
That seems the general theme with some around here.
So if one grades a Bronco highly, he is a homer. Really, I expected someone
to come up with that.
I went by Cutler's numbers and his come-back abilities, and how advanced
he already is for a second-year player (let alone one who actually played
for his first year). But I guess, to avoid being called "homer," I should have
gone ahead and left Cutler out of where I thought he belongs.
Oh yes, and Champ Bailey is not among the top 10 in cornebacks. After all,
he's a Bronco. :coffee:
-----
topscribe
03-25-2008, 05:38 PM
Top 5 in the near future would put him up there with Brady, Manning, and Roth. For the sake of Broncos nation, that would be wonderful, but I would take top 15 at this point.
For Cutler to be a top 10 or even top 5, he needs to win games regardless of who is around him. Much like Elway did for years. He needs to carry this team on his back, stop the high school mistakes that he still makes and improve in all areas.
Give him a few complete seasons first, and then maybe crack the top 10.
I see. Just as Elway did in 1988, 1990, 1992, 1994, and 1995, right?
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underrated29
03-25-2008, 05:42 PM
RAting a qb should have nothing to do with their wins and losses. Thats the stupidest thing i think that people can do.
a qb should also not be measured by his team. like rivers or anderson imo.
he should be measured by his ability alone.
VY makes my list as he is strong in the pocket, can run and make things happen with his feet, not the most accurate or strongest arm, but in a few years could develop into a gerrard type.
Rivers- to me is going to become like a pennington, never really makes smart descisions, not a strong arm, but pretty accurate- never elite though.
Cutler- needs to improve mechanics and vision, but has the smarts, the mobility and the arm strength along with accuracy to really become one of the best. (this would go for almost any team).
eli- whats the saying jack of trades but master of none. When he is good he is just like any vet qb. IE. garcia, gannon, dilfer (in terms of production)- obviously he is younger and has a higher ceiling, but too inconcistent for me.
I dont care about the SB win, or anything else. I had him as my back up in FF and watched a fair amount of him- on another team i think he is less productive.
The opposite of romo- he is a playmaker and can buy time with his feet, his arm is decent and his accuracy and touch are above average. On another team though he could still probably would have similiar numbers.
I dont think he will ever be a guy who can bomb the ball and fit it into a box between the defender and the sideline, and do that consistantly to have multiple 300 yard games. Similiar to guys like bulger and palmer
Watchthemiddle
03-25-2008, 05:48 PM
I see. Just as Elway did in 1988, 1990, 1992, 1994, and 1995, right?
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He did it pretty early on in his career..and did so with mediocre talent around him.
Elway wasn't a top 10 QB after his first 22 or 23 games in the league..but he became one. His first 16 game season was in 85 (third year in league) , followed that up with a Super Bowl appearance the next 3 out of 4 seasons.
Like I said about Cutler, give him a few complete seasons first, see how he does, then maybe he will crack the top 10.
Right now, no way he is top 5 other than on 'potential' and we all know the NFL is littered with the graves of players that have all the 'potential' in the world.
Top 10? Hard to say, but I don't think he has shown the world (non Broncos fans) enough to put him in the top 10.
With QB's, there can be flucuation from year to year with injuries and the such. For instance, take Bulger. In '06 he has a big year. 4300+ yards, 93 passer rating, 24/8 TD/INT, then last year he gets banged up and has a horrible year. When you look at the good numbers (when healthy) he put up in '04, '05 and '06, there isn't any real good case for ranking Cutler ahead of him, other than based on 'potential'.
Let's face it, we all hate Rivers, but based on what he has done, he has produced more on the field than Cutler.
So, if you take the 'potential' out of the equation, then I think he is hovering near the #10 spot, maybe 9 or 10, maybe 11 or 12, but maybe even further down, because some players like Hasselbach and even Garcia weren't in that list of 15, and they have shown more on the field than Cutler to date.
I really think that soon, assuming the offense gets some stability and avoids major injuries, Cutler will be considered one of the top QBs in the game. If not in the Brady/Manning realm, the next tier below, but right now he only gets bumped into the top 10 or top 5 on potential, and for that reason he cannot be considered a top 10 QB.
broncohead
03-25-2008, 06:18 PM
QBs in the NFL have to find ways win period.
NameUsedBefore
03-25-2008, 06:41 PM
Sure. After Manning, Brady and Palmer I think the talent of the QBs is so even that you could easily have Cutler at 5 just as well as you could at 10 (or off the 'list' entirely).
TXBRONC
03-25-2008, 06:58 PM
I would say he's not there just yet.
topscribe
03-25-2008, 07:46 PM
Right now, no way he is top 5 other than on 'potential' and we all know the NFL is littered with the graves of players that have all the 'potential' in the world.
Top 10? Hard to say, but I don't think he has shown the world (non Broncos fans) enough to put him in the top 10.
With QB's, there can be flucuation from year to year with injuries and the such. For instance, take Bulger. In '06 he has a big year. 4300+ yards, 93 passer rating, 24/8 TD/INT, then last year he gets banged up and has a horrible year. When you look at the good numbers (when healthy) he put up in '04, '05 and '06, there isn't any real good case for ranking Cutler ahead of him, other than based on 'potential'.
Let's face it, we all hate Rivers, but based on what he has done, he has produced more on the field than Cutler.
So, if you take the 'potential' out of the equation, then I think he is hovering near the #10 spot, maybe 9 or 10, maybe 11 or 12, but maybe even further down, because some players like Hasselbach and even Garcia weren't in that list of 15, and they have shown more on the field than Cutler to date.
I really think that soon, assuming the offense gets some stability and avoids major injuries, Cutler will be considered one of the top QBs in the game. If not in the Brady/Manning realm, the next tier below, but right now he only gets bumped into the top 10 or top 5 on potential, and for that reason he cannot be considered a top 10 QB.
Far as Rivers is concerned, yes, his team did more on the field than Cutler's
team. However, while Rivers' team was out-performing the Broncos, Cutler
was outperforming Rivers: More yardage, higher YPC, higher completion
percentage, and higher QB rating, with fewer weapons and an inferior
defense (less time on the field). So it is totally erroneous that Rivers
accomplished more on the field than Cutler.
In fact, it has already been established that, in his second year, Cutler
out-performed nearly every one of the QB legends in their respective
second years. Yes, he is not as good as he will be, but I would say Cutler
has already arrived.
But at least you didn't use the "homer" monicker . . . :beer:
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BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 07:53 PM
Homers.
In fact, it has already been established that, in his second year, Cutler
out-performed nearly every one of the QB legends in their respective
second years. Yes, he is not as good as he will be, but I would say Cutler
has already arrived.
-----
This is a bit of fools gold. I posted about this towards the end of the season. Nearly across the board with starting QBs we are seeing 'stats' that are unprecedented from QBs. Passer ratings and completion percentages that dwarf what many HOF QBs did in the past.
Using these stats as a basis for Cutler's accomplishments doesn't work, because today's stats aren't comparable to those of 10-20 years ago. I will find my post in this regard and post it here.
Here is why you can't use Cutler's stats as an indication of 'out-performing' QB legends, because once you go there, the list of the QB's the last year or two that 'out-performed' QB legends is long and not very distinguished.
Ok, now the comment.
As I have said before, I don't think you can compare Elway and Cutler easily, because even with all the injuries this year, Cutler has more talent around him than Elway.
However, there is another thing to consider. Can anyone remember a more dominant time for QBs in the NFL?
Through 12 week, there are 24, yes 24, out of the 30 QBs with completion percentages OVER 60%. Of those, 22 of them have at least 1100 yards passing, so that number isn't padded by a bunch of backup QBs that through a couple passes. That is from the list of qualified (14 passes per game average).
There are two more that are over 59%, and only Alex Smith is below 56%.
Contrast that with Hall of Famer Troy Aikmen, who was under 60% 6 of his 12 seasons. Only twice was he over 65%, but this season we have 13 QBs at 64.9% or higher.
How about Marino? Only 5 times in his 17 seasons was Marino over 60%, and never cracked 65% (64.1% and 64.2% were his two highest seasons). So, based purely on judging 'current' stats against those from another era, Joe Kitna, Garcia, Garrrard, Pennington, Breese, etc. are all 'greater' starters or have 'beat' a QB like Dan Marino or Troy Aikmen.
The inflated QB stats don't stop with completion percentage. There are 10 QBs averaging over 250 yards a game (4000 yards over 16 games). Only 8, yes 8, of Marino's 17 years did he average over 250 yards a game. The NFL all time leader in passing yards averaged over 250 yards a game less than half of his seasons, yet this year we have 10 QBs averaging over 250 yards a game.
Another interesting stat. There are 12 QB's averaging over 7.5 yards per attempt. Again, comparing that to the 'great' Marino, only 6, yes 6, of his 17 years did he average over 7.5 yards per attempt. Only twice did he have a YPA over 7.6, but this year we have 7 QBs that are at 7.7 or higher, including some dominant names like: Garrard, Kitna and Schaub, with Cutler, Anderson and Garcia at 7.6, which equals Marino's best in all but two of his seasons, and is better than Marino did in 13 of his 17 seasons.
Conclusion? You cannot compare QB stats from a rookie season 24 years ago, to today. For whatever reason, we are experiencing a 'juiced ball' type era, when it comes to QB stats. It doesn't end with completion percentage, YPA and yards per game, there are 11 QBs with passer ratings over 90. A slew of QBs with TD:INT ratings approaching or way over 2:1. It goes on and on.
QBs like Garcia, Kitna, Schaub, and many others (not to mention the Palmer's, Brady's, Manning's and Romo's) are having years that approach the greatest years of our greatest Hall of Fame QBs.
So, while I am a huge Cutler fan, and think he will likely be one of the 'great' ones in time, comparisons like the Cutler to Elway stat comparisons can be very deceptive, because QB stats are inflated like no other time in NFL history.
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 07:58 PM
Doesn't it all eventually come down to wins anyway?
Cutler isn't top 10 yet.
Key word: Yet.
underrated29
03-25-2008, 08:05 PM
I doint think it comes down to wins at all. Look at vandy, he didnt win hardly anything. Same goes for a lot of players, and thats why there are so many busts, because people draft qbs off of wins not skill.
The best players are the ones who out perform with no help around them.
On my hockey team (highschool) we were next to last place. We sucked! But Myself and a few others went on to college to play. We were good and some were great players, but the colleges didnt say- no we dont want them because they didnt win. SO they must not be good.
Who else? LJ- for the chefs, they suck but he is badass, no one says he sucks even though they have like 12 wins in the last 2 years.
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:08 PM
College isn't the PRO'S.
It's professional football. Wins do matter. It is what defines a player at this level - especially at the QB position.
Evidence: Elway.
topscribe
03-25-2008, 08:08 PM
He did it pretty early on in his career..and did so with mediocre talent around him.
Elway wasn't a top 10 QB after his first 22 or 23 games in the league..but he became one. His first 16 game season was in 85 (third year in league) , followed that up with a Super Bowl appearance the next 3 out of 4 seasons.
Like I said about Cutler, give him a few complete seasons first, see how he does, then maybe he will crack the top 10.
Well, I don't know about your "mediocre talent" hypothesis. In Elway's second
season, yes, the Broncos went 11-5. Elway accomplished that with the help
of the likes of Clarence Kay, Steve Watson, Sammy Winder, and Dave Logan
at the skill positions, while he was being protected by the likes of Paul
Howard, Dave Studdard, Ken Lanier, Keith Bishop, and Mark Cooper on the
offensive line.
Meanwhile, defensive players such as Rubin Carter, Barney Chavous, Rick
Dennison, Steve Foley, Tom Jackson, Karl Mecklenburg, Rulon Jones, and
Louis Wright were helping to get him back onto the field.
I wonder if Cutler would enjoy playing with such "inferior talent."
And still Cutler had better numbers than Elway in their respective second
years . . .
P.S. W-L is the poorest way to gauge any individual player, especially when
he is at the mercy of 44 other players and the coaches on a given game
day.
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Doesn't it all eventually come down to wins anyway?
Cutler isn't top 10 yet.
Key word: Yet.
No thats a myth. Football is a team game. It says a lot about a QB if he can perform well in key moments but it also says a lot if a QB consistently produces big numbers but loses because he is all they have.
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:13 PM
No thats a myth. Football is a team game.
Sure it is. Answer me one thing:
Who has the ball in their hands on every - EVERY - offensive play?
It does come down to the QB. There aren't many (if any...) QB's that could have taken the Broncos to the Superbowl with the players Elway had.
A QB is judged by his performance. And wins. As is the "team".
Sure it is. Answer me one thing:
Who has the ball in their hands on every - EVERY - offensive play?
It does come down to the QB. There aren't many (if any...) QB's that could have taken the Broncos to the Superbowl with the players Elway had.
A QB is judged by his performance. And wins. As is the "team".
Direct snap to the RB ;)
topscribe
03-25-2008, 08:15 PM
This is a bit of fools gold. I posted about this towards the end of the season. Nearly across the board with starting QBs we are seeing 'stats' that are unprecedented from QBs. Passer ratings and completion percentages that dwarf what many HOF QBs did in the past.
Using these stats as a basis for Cutler's accomplishments doesn't work, because today's stats aren't comparable to those of 10-20 years ago. I will find my post in this regard and post it here.
Okay, then compare Cutler to Manning, Brady, Palmer, and Roethlisberger in
their second years. They're considered top level, and they are contemporary.
-----
broncohead
03-25-2008, 08:15 PM
I doint think it comes down to wins at all. Look at vandy, he didnt win hardly anything. Same goes for a lot of players, and thats why there are so many busts, because people draft qbs off of wins not skill.
The best players are the ones who out perform with no help around them.
On my hockey team (highschool) we were next to last place. We sucked! But Myself and a few others went on to college to play. We were good and some were great players, but the colleges didnt say- no we dont want them because they didnt win. SO they must not be good.
Who else? LJ- for the chefs, they suck but he is badass, no one says he sucks even though they have like 12 wins in the last 2 years.
Name a great QB that has a loosing record.
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:17 PM
Direct snap to the RB ;)
Bastage.
Hey Tned - why is bas-tard ***'d out when bitch isn't?
Okay, then compare Cutler to Manning, Brady, Palmer, and Roethlisberger in
their second years. They're considered top level, and they are contemporary.
-----
As I showed with my post from last November, you simply can't compare today's QB stats to those of Marino's, Aikman's, Elway's and the other greats. If you do, then the only conclusions are:
We have 20+ future HOF QB's starting in the NFL now
Elway, Aikman, Marino and other greats actually sucked and should be removed from the HOF, because today's QBs are better (based on stats).
underrated29
03-25-2008, 08:17 PM
ok well since you say that elway is a great qb by his wins and losses. (wich he is regardless of the stats).
would you then say if we had elway we could have made it to the superbowl last year. Because after all he has the wins to prove it. and with the ball in his hands on everyplay he surely could have gotten the job done.
topscribe
03-25-2008, 08:18 PM
Sure it is. Answer me one thing:
Who has the ball in their hands on every - EVERY - offensive play?
It does come down to the QB. There aren't many (if any...) QB's that could have taken the Broncos to the Superbowl with the players Elway had.
A QB is judged by his performance. And wins. As is the "team".
Unless the QB can block for himself, carry the ball on runing plays, and catch
his own passes, as well as play defense to get himself back onto the field to
accomplish all those amazing feats, then the W-L record is still skewed as a
method for evaluation.
-----
Well, I don't know about your "mediocre talent" hypothesis. In Elway's second
season, yes, the Broncos went 11-5. Elway accomplished that with the help
of the likes of Clarence Kay, Steve Watson, Sammy Winder, and Dave Logan
at the skill positions, while he was being protected by the likes of Paul
Howard, Dave Studdard, Ken Lanier, Keith Bishop, and Mark Cooper on the
offensive line.
Meanwhile, defensive players such as Rubin Carter, Barney Chavous, Rick
Dennison, Steve Foley, Tom Jackson, Karl Mecklenburg, Rulon Jones, and
Louis Wright were helping to get him back onto the field.
I wonder if Cutler would enjoy playing with such "inferior talent."
And still Cutler had better numbers than Elway in their respective second
years . . .
P.S. W-L is the poorest way to gauge any individual player, especially when
he is at the mercy of 44 other players and the coaches on a given game
day.
-----
The game is played differently now. The proliferation of the WCO has made a lot of past comparisons apples and oranges. Back in the 80s QBs with big arms threw downfield more. There was greater risk reward and the QB rating and its components favors the design of the WCO. Im not saying youre wrong but its like people seem to think the WCO has always been around.
As I showed with my post from last November, you simply can't compare today's QB stats to those of Marino's, Aikman's, Elway's and the other greats. If you do, then the only conclusions are:
We have 20+ future HOF QB's starting in the NFL now
Elway, Aikman, Marino and other greats actually sucked and should be removed from the HOF, because today's QBs are better (based on stats).
Oops, I'm foggy from my cold. You talked about semi-recent QB's. I would have to look to see how long ago the stats 'shot' into the stratosphere as they did last year.
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:20 PM
ok well since you say that elway is a great qb by his wins and losses. (wich he is regardless of the stats).
would you then say if we had elway we could have made it to the superbowl last year. Because after all he has the wins to prove it. and with the ball in his hands on everyplay he surely could have gotten the job done.
I'd say if we had Elway at the same age as Cutler, playing on last years team, we wouldn't have had a 7-9 record.
I'm not ripping on Cutler - I firmly believe he'll bring back the Lombardi to Denver. He just has to prove it on the field. That's all.
topscribe
03-25-2008, 08:21 PM
As I showed with my post from last November, you simply can't compare today's QB stats to those of Marino's, Aikman's, Elway's and the other greats. If you do, then the only conclusions are:
We have 20+ future HOF QB's starting in the NFL now
Elway, Aikman, Marino and other greats actually sucked and should be removed from the HOF, because today's QBs are better (based on stats).
Hmmm . . . didn't you just respond to my reference to today's quarterbacks?
Unless I'm wrong, I don't think Elway, Aikman, nor Marino are playing today.
I mentioned Manning, Brady, Palmer, and Roethlisberger.
Let me go back and check . . . yep, that's what I did. ;)
-----
topscribe
03-25-2008, 08:23 PM
The game is played differently now. The proliferation of the WCO has made a lot of past comparisons apples and oranges. Back in the 80s QBs with big arms threw downfield more. There was greater risk reward and the QB rating and its components favors the design of the WCO. Im not saying youre wrong but its like people seem to think the WCO has always been around.
Lex, I don't remember the first professional football game I ever saw, but I
do remember the "Ice Bowl," where Bart Starr of the Green Bay Packers
carried the ball over Jerry Kramer's and Forrest Gregg's blocks in a QB sneak
for the winning TD against the Dallas Cowboys in the NFL championship . . .
I think it was about 1957.
If you know what I mean . . .
-----
I'd say if we had Elway at the same age as Cutler, playing on last years team, we wouldn't have had a 7-9 record.
I'm not ripping on Cutler - I firmly believe he'll bring back the Lombardi to Denver. He just has to prove it prove it on the field. That's all.
I have thought, and still think, that in time Cutler will be one of the best in the league. I think he is smart and has great physical gifts. However, he has to be tempered by the coaches, because he thinks he can make every throw, and as a result he is keeping himself from being a top tier QB with bonehead throws.
Granted, give him more time to throw, and a better offensive scheme (one more suited to our small offensive line such as we used in '04, '05 and other times in the past, and he would probably have performed better.
The offense that Heimerdinger tried to implement the last two years set this team way back.
Sure it is. Answer me one thing:
Who has the ball in their hands on every - EVERY - offensive play?
It does come down to the QB. There aren't many (if any...) QB's that could have taken the Broncos to the Superbowl with the players Elway had.
A QB is judged by his performance. And wins. As is the "team".
Surely youre not giving the QB credit for the yardage gained by a running back? Handing off isnt exactly the most difficult thing in sports. So basically, right there, pointing that out doesnt accomplish much from that standpoint.
Also, if one lineman completely whiffs on a block, how much success is the QB going to have. If a WR drops a pass, then what? The QB is the most reliant on others to do their jobs out of everyone on the offense.
underrated29
03-25-2008, 08:24 PM
I'd say if we had Elway at the same age as Cutler, playing on last years team, we wouldn't have had a 7-9 record.
I'm not ripping on Cutler - I firmly believe he'll bring back the Lombardi to Denver. He just has to prove it on the field. That's all.
the first part i would disagree with. The record might be slightly better, but we couldnt run the ball in as you know in the redzone, and the defense couldnt EVER GET OFF THE FIELD!!! Just imagine how many more games we would have won had we let them not score that extra td.
The second part I whole heartidly agree with:salute:
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:25 PM
I agree, Tned. I'm just saying that ultimately, a QB is judged by his wins.
Lex, I don't remember the first professional football game I ever saw, but I
do remember the "Ice Bowl," where Bart Starr carried the ball over Jerry
Kramer's and Forrest Gregg's blocks in a QB sneak for the winning TD in the
NFL championship . . . I think it was about 1957.
If you know what I mean . . .
-----
OK, well Namath is a better example of what Im referring to. He was the first QB to pass for over 4000 yards and they threw the ball downfield but he gets blasted today for the interceptions, which is because opinions have been shaped by the QB rating and the WCO.
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:28 PM
Surely youre not giving the QB credit for the yardage gained by a running back? Handing off isnt exactly the most difficult thing in sports. So basically, right there, pointing that out doesnt accomplish much from that standpoint.
Also, if one lineman completely whiffs on a block, how much success is the QB going to have. If a WR drops a pass, then what? The QB is the most reliant on others to do their jobs out of everyone on the offense.
the first part i would disagree with. The record might be slightly better, but we couldnt run the ball in as you know in the redzone, and the defense couldnt EVER GET OFF THE FIELD!!! Just imagine how many more games we would have won had we let them not score that extra td.
The second part I whole heartidly agree with:salute:
Guys, at the risk of starting an argument...
Elway came into the league with all kinds of pomp and circumstance. Cutler? Not even close to the same level. Elway was "spied" upon for his running ability. They weren't keying on any player other than Elway. That opened up a lot of opportunity for other players just because he was on the field.
Can you even name the running backs during his first few years?
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:29 PM
Surely youre not giving the QB credit for the yardage gained by a running back? Handing off isnt exactly the most difficult thing in sports. So basically, right there, pointing that out doesnt accomplish much from that standpoint.
Also, if one lineman completely whiffs on a block, how much success is the QB going to have. If a WR drops a pass, then what? The QB is the most reliant on others to do their jobs out of everyone on the offense.
You didn't watch Elway much in his early years, did you?
That statement is completely retarded.
topscribe
03-25-2008, 08:35 PM
Guys, at the risk of starting an argument...
Elway came into the league with all kinds of pomp and circumstance. Cutler? Not even close to the same level. Elway was "spied" upon for his running ability. They weren't keying on any player other than Elway. That opened up a lot of opportunity for other players just because he was on the field.
Can you even name the running backs during his first few years?
Sure. In his second year, as I already established in a recent post in this
thread, Elway's starting running back in his second year was Sammy Winder.
Of course, Winder eventually made the Pro Bowl . . .
Tony Dorsett came on in 1986, I believe, and, while not the superstar he
once was, he did a credible job. Then Bobby Humphrey tore up the league
for a couple years until he pulled a "Griese" above the shoulders. Gaston
Green did a pretty fair job, then somewhere in there, someone by the name
of . . . . Davis . . . yeah, that's it . .. . Terrell.
Elway didn't have caliber of talent around him that Montana's 49ers had,
but it was superior in most years to the Broncos of 2007, relative to the
respective eras.
-----
Guys, at the risk of starting an argument...
Elway came into the league with all kinds of pomp and circumstance. Cutler? Not even close to the same level. Elway was "spied" upon for his running ability. They weren't keying on any player other than Elway. That opened up a lot of opportunity for other players just because he was on the field.
Can you even name the running backs during his first few years?
Winder, Willhite, Lytle, Preston
Sure. In his second year, as I already established in a recent post in this
thread, Elway's starting running back in his second year was Sammy Winder.
Of course, Winder eventually made the Pro Bowl . . .
Tony Dorsett came on in 1986, I believe, and, while not the superstar he
once was, he did a credible job. Then Bobby Humphrey tore up the league
for a couple years until he pulled a "Griese" above the shoulders. Gaston
Green did a pretty fair job, then somewhere in there, someone by the name
of . . . . Davis . . . yeah, that's it . .. . Terrell.
Elway didn't have caliber of talent around him that Montana's 49ers had,
but it was superior in most years to the Broncos of 2007, relative to the
respective eras.
-----
Youre a couple years early on Dorsett.
underrated29
03-25-2008, 08:38 PM
good job guys, you sure kjnow your history. That was all well before my time so i had absolutely no idea who they were until humphrey
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:38 PM
Sure. In his second year, as I already established in a recent post in this
thread, Elway's starting running back in his second year was Sammy Winder.
Of course, Winder eventually made the Pro Bowl . . .
Tony Dorsett came on in 1986, I believe, and, while not the superstar he
once was, he did a credible job. Then Bobby Humphrey tore up the league
for a couple years until he pulled a "Griese" above the shoulders. Gaston
Green did a pretty fair job, then somewhere in there, someone by the name
of . . . . Davis . . . yeah, that's it . .. . Terrell.
Elway didn't have caliber of talent around him that Montana's 49ers had,
but it was superior in most years to the Broncos of 2007, relative to the
respective eras.
-----
I want to make it abundantly clear:
I'm not dissing on Cutler.
He is, however, not in Elway's shadow. Elway carried those teams. To dispute it is asinine.
YET.
You didn't watch Elway much in his early years, did you?
That statement is completely retarded.
OK, since when did this go from being about the QB position in general to solely about Elway who was an outlier?
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:39 PM
Winder, Willhite, Lytle, Preston
My point exactly. Now, can you recall the TE position? How about WR?
Elway carried those teams and willed them to victories.
End of story.
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:41 PM
OK, since when did this go from being about the QB position in general to solely about Elway who was an outlier?
I don't know. It was probably me....
:confused:
topscribe
03-25-2008, 08:41 PM
I want to make it abundantly clear:
I'm not dissing on Cutler.
He is, however, not in Elway's shadow. Elway carried those teams. To dispute it is asinine.
YET.
I agree. I am a HUGE Elway fan. Here are my two favorite players of all time:
http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh256/AZDynamics/favre_elway_t335.jpg
I'm not saying Cutler is anywhere near Elway yet. Not at all.
I'm only supporting my opinion that, yes, Cutler would be in my Top 10.
IMHO.
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ktrain
03-25-2008, 08:42 PM
mcNabb has n't done shit in nearly 3 years, I don't put him on the list
topscribe
03-25-2008, 08:44 PM
My point exactly. Now, can you recall the TE position? How about WR?
Elway carried those teams and willed them to victories.
End of story.
TE - Clarence Kay.
WR - Steve Watson, Dave Logan.
I can also repeat the offensive line from a previous post.
Well, go back and check it out: http://broncosforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=189510&postcount=41
As I said, I think Cutler would have enjoyed that type of talent last year. ;)
-----
My point exactly. Now, can you recall the TE position? How about WR?
Elway carried those teams and willed them to victories.
End of story.
OK, first of all. Im with you on the comparisons to Elway. To say Cutler is more impressive than Elway neglects to consider a lot. I think Cutler is a little further along than Elway, but again, there are other factors to consider.
Where you and I differ is on the notion that its all about wins, which is like saying its all about rings. You can get away with a good or very good QB if you had a strong team otherwise. Historically, the team with the best QB, though its an advantage, hasnt always won the SB. But you also have to consider the era and number of great QBs. In the 90s you had far more elite QBs playing than what you see now.
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:46 PM
Well, in my mind, it is all about wins and losses. He (Cutler) had talent around him this year.
Now, don't get me started on the defense....
That, IMO, is the reason we were 7-9.
topscribe
03-25-2008, 08:47 PM
Well, in my mind, it is all about wins and losses. He (Cutler) had talent around him this year.
Now, don't get me started on the defense....
That, IMO, is the reason we were 7-9.
:confused:
-----
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:49 PM
I wanted to delete that post (or at least alter it) before it was quoted, Top. Thanks a lot.
Well, in my mind, it is all about wins and losses. He (Cutler) had talent around him this year.
Now, don't get me started on the defense....
That, IMO, is the reason we were 7-9.
I look at it from a couple angles.
First, if Cutler had made better decisions, then the offense would like have performed better.
Second, the offensive scheme sucked. It simply didn't suit the talent the last two seasons. Good riddance Heimerdinger, that was an experiment gone horribly wrong.
Third, the defense was so horrid, that we would have needed a team capable of scoring 30+ a game like Elway, Sharpe and the boys did in their hey day.
While I think the team could have done better (hard to quantify how much) better if Cutler didn't make as many mistakes, I think most of the blame for the wins and losses has to be laid on Heimerdingers scheme (further complicated by injuries to the O-line) and the defensive failures.
I wanted to delete that post (or at least alter it) before it was quoted, Top. Thanks a lot.
They don't call Top and me Quick and Quicker for nothing... ;)
Well, in my mind, it is all about wins and losses. He (Cutler) had talent around him this year.
Now, don't get me started on the defense....
That, IMO, is the reason we were 7-9.
OK, well Marino was a huge producer but his defense sucked and he had no running game. They had some success but those other deficiencies was his ultimate undoing. Its hard to fault a QB for the eventual outcome when he is passing for 300 yards a game.
You could say that about Elway but for a different reason. But if you would have put Marino or Elway on those Niners teams, the Niners would have won just as many SBs if not more. Montana wasnt as good as Elway or Marino.
Another thing, I think if you go back and look at the history of SBs youll see a lot of teams who were better at running than passing and a lot of teams who won the SB by having a better running game and a better defense that day. Im not saying a QB has no value. Clearly he counts for a lot but so does a good offensive line and a good RB.
Watchthemiddle
03-25-2008, 08:55 PM
So if CUtler is already a "top 10" QB, then after two seasons of starting, I quess Griese was also.
:coffee:
BroncoJoe
03-25-2008, 08:56 PM
I need to let go of Elway. I miss him.
BTW: I had dinner with Karl Mecklenberg. He's starting his own company to do speaking at events.
Can you say failure? Love Karl, but listening to him talk is like watching butter go soft.
So if CUtler is already a "top 10" QB, then after two seasons of starting, I quess Griese was also.
:coffee:
The $36 million man...
topscribe
03-25-2008, 09:02 PM
So if CUtler is already a "top 10" QB, then after two seasons of starting, I quess Griese was also.
:coffee:
I agree. In the years 1999-2001, Griese was a Top 10 QB.
The fact he threw himself under the bus in 2002 cannot take away from that.
-----
topscribe
03-25-2008, 09:08 PM
I wanted to delete that post (or at least alter it) before it was quoted, Top. Thanks a lot.
. . . and now you're stuck. :D
-----
topscribe
03-25-2008, 09:10 PM
Thanks, Boss, for a thread that created a few sparks during an incredibly boring time of the year.
I, for one, enjoyed this. :beer:
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Scarface
03-25-2008, 09:10 PM
I sure as hell wouldn't have a Top 10 QB list with Manning ranked #1. Dude never does anything in the playoffs and the one year he wins a SB it's because of the running game and defense. Not because of his 3tds and 7picks.
Scarface
03-25-2008, 09:11 PM
I need to let go of Elway. I miss him.
BTW: I had dinner with Karl Mecklenberg. He's starting his own company to do speaking at events.
Can you say failure? Love Karl, but listening to him talk is like watching butter go soft.
LMAO!:laugh:
OK, well Marino was a huge producer but his defense sucked and he had no running game. They had some success but those other deficiencies was his ultimate undoing. Its hard to fault a QB for the eventual outcome when he is passing for 300 yards a game.
You could say that about Elway but for a different reason. But if you would have put Marino or Elway on those Niners teams, the Niners would have won just as many SBs if not more. Montana wasnt as good as Elway or Marino.
Another thing, I think if you go back and look at the history of SBs youll see a lot of teams who were better at running than passing and a lot of teams who won the SB by having a better running game and a better defense that day. Im not saying a QB has no value. Clearly he counts for a lot but so does a good offensive line and a good RB.
I sure as hell wouldn't have a Top 10 QB list with Manning ranked #1. Dude never does anything in the playoffs and the one year he wins a SB it's because of the running game and defense. Not because of his 3tds and 7picks.
Thank you very much.
Scarface
03-25-2008, 09:15 PM
Go back and watch tape of Elway in the 80's and tell me he wouldn't have multiple Super Bowls throwing to Wayne, Harrison, Clark and handing off to James and Addai. Elway would have cleaned up with an offense loaded like that and with an O-Line like that. Peyton is a very good QB but come money time he starts to choke.
aberdien
03-25-2008, 09:20 PM
Cutler is not a top 10 QB yet. He is a top 15 or 20, but not a top 10. He hasn't won very many games, which IMO is what makes a quarterback. Finding ways to win the game is more important than individual stats and Cutler has decent stats and 9 wins I think?
But he will be a top 10 and even a top 5 soon.
Scarface
03-25-2008, 09:24 PM
Cutler is not a top 10 QB yet. He is a top 15 or 20, but not a top 10. He hasn't won very many games, which IMO is what makes a quarterback. Finding ways to win the game is more important than individual stats and Cutler has decent stats and 9 wins I think?
But he will be a top 10 and even a top 5 soon.
He's won games with the ball in his hands at the end.
aberdien
03-25-2008, 09:28 PM
He's won games with the ball in his hands at the end.
But not enough just yet. Playoffs. Give him a good running game and he'll be beast soon. He did good for his second year and first full year as starter in the league, but not enough to propel him in the top 10.
topscribe
03-25-2008, 09:33 PM
Cutler is not a top 10 QB yet. He is a top 15 or 20, but not a top 10. He hasn't won very many games, which IMO is what makes a quarterback. Finding ways to win the game is more important than individual stats and Cutler has decent stats and 9 wins I think?
But he will be a top 10 and even a top 5 soon.
Okay, it took a while, but it finally sunk in. I think I've got this straight by now.
How you judge a QB is how the defense and the talent around him perform, right?
I think I've got it now . . .
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Dreadnought
03-25-2008, 09:40 PM
I think top 10 pretty easily. I don't count W/L percentage a whole lot - Jay can't play outside LB for example, though he might have been an upgrade over Webster and Gold last Year. Point is, its a team sport. Cutler did his part for most of 07, the rest of the team needs to do theirs.
I'd take him over McNabb, who I think is damaged goods now, and Rivers, who is in an ideal situation and still unimpressive. In fact, where Cutler is our strong point, Rivers is actually the Bolts Achilles heel.
topscribe
03-25-2008, 09:55 PM
Name a great QB that has a loosing record.
Well, now you're talking about college.
So, John Elway, Stanford, 20-23 during his college career . . .
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aberdien
03-25-2008, 09:56 PM
Okay, it took a while, but it finally sunk in. I think I've got this straight by now.
How you judge a QB is how the defense and the talent around him perform, right?
I think I've got it now . . .
-----
I didn't say anything about the defense. All i'm saying is he's been good his first couple of years, but not top 10 yet. But he definately has the most potential out of all the quarterbacks.
Dreadnought
03-25-2008, 09:57 PM
Archie Manning was a terrific QB. Man, did his teams ever suck, his whole career
TXBRONC
03-25-2008, 09:59 PM
Okay, it took a while, but it finally sunk in. I think I've got this straight by now.
How you judge a QB is how the defense and the talent around him perform, right?
I think I've got it now . . .
-----
I say he's not in the top ten yet not because of a lack of wins but because he's only had full season as a starter.
aberdien
03-25-2008, 10:02 PM
I says not in the top ten yet not because of a lack of wins but because he's only had full season as a starter.
What he said.
Talking about Archie Manning, he was a great quarterback on a terrible team, but is he considered one of the best quarterbacks in NFL history even though his teams sucked? No. Wins are all that matters.
topscribe
03-25-2008, 10:04 PM
I didn't say anything about the defense. All i'm saying is he's been good his first couple of years, but not top 10 yet. But he definately has the most potential out of all the quarterbacks.
You didn't have to say anything about the defense. You talked W-L.
If you have a lousy defense, you will have a losing record.
Dread mentioned Archie Manning. Another terrific QB was Dan Fouts. He
cleaned up his first four years, then his Chargers went into a perenniel losing
slump for much of the remainder of his career. I defy you to check out those
defenses of the first four years against those of the remaining years.
As I mentioned previously, a QB's W-L record is a skewed gauge for
evaluating a quarterback. Whether it is significant depends on the ability
of the supporting cast to keep up with the other team.
-----
topscribe
03-25-2008, 10:06 PM
I says not in the top ten yet not because of a lack of wins but because he's only had full season as a starter.
Cutler's numbers last year put him in the Top 10 last year.
That's what I am going by. This year, we'll see. But last year, he was there.
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aberdien
03-25-2008, 10:07 PM
You didn't have to say anything about the defense. You talked W-L.
If you have a lousy defense, you will have a losing record.
Dread mentioned Archie Manning. Another terrific QB was Dan Fouts. He
cleaned up his first four years, then his Chargers went into a perenniel losing
slump for much of the remainder of his career. I defy you to check out those
defenses of the first four years against those of the remaining years.
As I mentioned previously, a QB's W-L record is a skewed gauge for
evaluating a quarterback. Whether it is significant depends on the ability
of the supporting cast to keep up with the other team.
-----
Yes, but my point is that they normally aren't considered as two of the greatest quarterbacks in NFL history, are they?
topscribe
03-25-2008, 10:10 PM
Yes, but my point is that they normally aren't considered as two of the greatest quarterbacks in NFL history, are they?
Did you ever see either of the two play football?
How did this get around to the "greatest quarterbacks in NFL history"?
This is supposed to be about Cutler and whether he is Top 10.
And so I find myself in a pissing contest. I'm out of here. *sigh*
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aberdien
03-25-2008, 10:15 PM
Did you ever see either of the two play football?
How did this get around to the "greatest quarterbacks in NFL history"?
This is supposed to be about Cutler and whether he is Top 10.
And so I find myself in a pissing contest. I'm out of here. *sigh*
-----
Haha, i'm comparing them being good quarterbacks playing on crappy teams to Cutler and whether or not he will be a top 10 quarterback if the team continues to struggle. So he has good stats but never makes the playoffs (which is really unlikely by the way :D). Will he still be considered a top 10 quarterback after a few years?
Phillip Rivers is as good of a QB as LT and Gates allow him to be.
He sucks.
The end.
Again, at the rist of sounding like a broken record, you CANNOT look at Cutler's stats and compare them to past QB's. We are in an era of inflated QB stats. Here, again, is a snippet of what I quoted earlier.
=========
Through 12 week, there are 24, yes 24, out of the 30 QBs with completion percentages OVER 60%. Of those, 22 of them have at least 1100 yards passing, so that number isn't padded by a bunch of backup QBs that through a couple passes. That is from the list of qualified (14 passes per game average).
There are two more that are over 59%, and only Alex Smith is below 56%.
Contrast that with Hall of Famer Troy Aikmen, who was under 60% 6 of his 12 seasons. Only twice was he over 65%, but this season we have 13 QBs at 64.9% or higher.
How about Marino? Only 5 times in his 17 seasons was Marino over 60%, and never cracked 65% (64.1% and 64.2% were his two highest seasons). So, based purely on judging 'current' stats against those from another era, Joe Kitna, Garcia, Garrrard, Pennington, Breese, etc. are all 'greater' starters or have 'beat' a QB like Dan Marino or Troy Aikmen.
==========
Read that. Through week 12 last year ( I didn't update the stats after that), 24 out of the 30 starting QBs had completion percentages OVER 60%.
When you compare the numbers that the QB's put up last year to QB's like Aikmen, Marino and other great 'passing' QB's (vs. the more raw QB's like Elway), we would have to consider Aikmen and Marino and these other 'greats' as just average or even sub par QBs.
Cutler has a so/so TD's to INT ratio. He passed for 3500 yards in a season where 8 QB's topped 4,000. He averaged 218 yards a game (12) in a season where 10 QB's passed for 244 a game or better.
Jay is playing in an era of inflated stats and is landing between 10th - 13th in most of the key QB stats.
BANJOPICKER1
03-25-2008, 11:15 PM
I guess if a player is a member of the Denver Broncos, he is to be downgraded.
That seems the general theme with some around here.
So if one grades a Bronco highly, he is a homer. Really, I expected someone
to come up with that.
I went by Cutler's numbers and his come-back abilities, and how advanced
he already is for a second-year player (let alone one who actually played
for his first year). But I guess, to avoid being called "homer," I should have
gone ahead and left Cutler out of where I thought he belongs.
Oh yes, and Champ Bailey is not among the top 10 in cornebacks. After all,
he's a Bronco. :coffee:
-----
There we go!!:D:D
topscribe
03-25-2008, 11:18 PM
Again, at the rist of sounding like a broken record, you CANNOT look at Cutler's stats and compare them to past QB's. We are in an era of inflated QB stats. Here, again, is a snippet of what I quoted earlier.
=========
Through 12 week, there are 24, yes 24, out of the 30 QBs with completion percentages OVER 60%. Of those, 22 of them have at least 1100 yards passing, so that number isn't padded by a bunch of backup QBs that through a couple passes. That is from the list of qualified (14 passes per game average).
There are two more that are over 59%, and only Alex Smith is below 56%.
Contrast that with Hall of Famer Troy Aikmen, who was under 60% 6 of his 12 seasons. Only twice was he over 65%, but this season we have 13 QBs at 64.9% or higher.
How about Marino? Only 5 times in his 17 seasons was Marino over 60%, and never cracked 65% (64.1% and 64.2% were his two highest seasons). So, based purely on judging 'current' stats against those from another era, Joe Kitna, Garcia, Garrrard, Pennington, Breese, etc. are all 'greater' starters or have 'beat' a QB like Dan Marino or Troy Aikmen.
==========
Read that. Through week 12 last year ( I didn't update the stats after that), 24 out of the 30 starting QBs had completion percentages OVER 60%.
When you compare the numbers that the QB's put up last year to QB's like Aikmen, Marino and other great 'passing' QB's (vs. the more raw QB's like Elway), we would have to consider Aikmen and Marino and these other 'greats' as just average or even sub par QBs.
Cutler has a so/so TD's to INT ratio. He passed for 3500 yards in a season where 8 QB's topped 4,000. He averaged 218 yards a game (12) in a season where 10 QB's passed for 244 a game or better.
Jay is playing in an era of inflated stats and is landing between 10th - 13th in most of the key QB stats.
Except for one problem: Cutler, in his second year, outplayed every single
"great" quarterback in their respective second years, past and present,
with the sole exception of Dan Marino.
Theorizing and postulating on the differences of situations and environments
are rendered relatively moot when every single (good to great) QB is considered.
Nonetheless, your stats here show that I am pretty close in placing Cutler
at #8 (I'll concede a give-or-take couple spots either way). BTW, how does
he compare with the others in completion percentage, YPC, TD/INT ratio,
etc.? (Honest question: I'd like to know.)
-----
Ask yourself this when you think about Cutler. Do you want him as your QB over this guy and this guy etc etc etc. I would rather have him over Big Ben. Big Ben lives off of the play action, holds onto the ball for far too long, makes as much stupid mistakes as Jay Cutler does, and to top it all off is anti clutch.
Then look at the other staples in the list. Manning and Brady are both better than cutler. Go to the next tier, Palmer and Romo. Carson Palmer and Tony Romo will drop some serious numbers on you. Tony Romo is total and utter balls in the playoffs, and my boy Palmer tore his acl and mcl in his playoff game. I don't think Cutler is as good as either QB, and while he is a distance away from those two, it isn't thatbig of a difference.
Then you go to Drew Brees. Great guy, good QB, but his career is nothing but average years, one great year and one great story.
McNabb is a guy who is hard to compare Cutler to. McNabb has proven that he is all that is man when he is healthy and has threats that are not garbage. But, he is rarely healthy, and some of that comes from his play style. To be fair to McNabb, he is a smart mobile QB and doesn't run around all the time. Bulger fits into the same mold as far as health goes.
The bottem line is that we don't exactly have a plethora of trulygood QB's in the NFL. Numbers say that Cutler is close to the bottem of that list if he is in at all. Common sense says that Cutler is in the top ten but not all that high.
I say...........Go Bengals.;)
Lonestar
03-25-2008, 11:42 PM
Lex, I don't remember the first professional football game I ever saw, but I
do remember the "Ice Bowl," where Bart Starr of the Green Bay Packers
carried the ball over Jerry Kramer's and Forrest Gregg's blocks in a QB sneak
for the winning TD against the Dallas Cowboys in the NFL championship . . .
I think it was about 1957.
If you know what I mean . . .
-----
1967 I believe
My Grandpa had passed away And I was home on emergency leave saw it in Nebraska.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Championship_Game,_1967
Yes, he is a top ten QB right now. I can't think of 10 QBs that I would rather have.
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
4. Tony Romo (maybe)
5. Carson Palmer (maybe)
There is my list of QBs that I would take right now, straight up for Jay.
Lonestar
03-25-2008, 11:55 PM
Yes, he is a top ten QB right now. I can't think of 10 QBs that I would rather have.
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
4. Tony Romo (maybe)
5. Carson Palmer (maybe)
There is my list of QBs that I would take right now, straight up for Jay.
ON this team with its OLINE the only one I'd consider off your list is Brady, the rest are to immobile IMO..
ON this team with its OLINE the only one I'd consider off your list is Brady, the rest are to immobile IMO..
Carson Palmer was only sacked 17 times this year. Sounds good right? Not really, the entire offensive line was being shuffled about and played awful. He still had a pretty decent year and had to force balls constantly.
/Ends homeristic plug of his favorite player.
JR, Tony Romo is very mobile. Moves far better than Tom Brady. The myth that Tom Brady avoids sacks because of his footwork is just that, a myth. The guy has had a great offensive line for many years and no one talked about them because.........TOM BRADY DOES EVERYTHING FOR THE PATRIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ON this team with its OLINE the only one I'd consider off your list is Brady, the rest are to immobile IMO..
Romo is not immobile.
P. Manning would excel on any team (as would Brady).
The bottem line is that we don't exactly have a plethora of trulygood QB's in the NFL. Numbers say that Cutler is close to the bottem of that list if he is in at all. Common sense says that Cutler is in the top ten but not all that high.
I think this sums it up pretty well
Except for one problem: Cutler, in his second year, outplayed every single
"great" quarterback in their respective second years, past and present,
with the sole exception of Dan Marino.
The problem I have with this line of thinking is that Cutler did it in a year where a BUNCH of QBs had better years than Mariino's and Aikmen's best years. Many of these are journeman QBs, yet they had great statistical years that Marino and Aikmen would have killed to have.
Nonetheless, your stats here show that I am pretty close in placing Cutler
at #8 (I'll concede a give-or-take couple spots either way). BTW, how does
he compare with the others in completion percentage, YPC, TD/INT ratio,
etc.? (Honest question: I'd like to know.)
-----
If by others, you mean all the other QB's that were part of this record setting statistical year in '07, he mostly fell between 8th and 13th in most key stats. Kurt Warner and Culter had almost mirror image stats, with Warner edging him in a couple areas.
TD/INT = 12 (slightly 1.43 to 1.4 ahead of 13th and 14th)
completion percentage = 13th
YPC = tied 9th (Jeff garcia)
20+ yard plays = 12
40+ yard plays = 9
QB Rating = 12
Yds/game = 12
As you can see, there is a pattern. In a year of extraordinary QB stats, Cutler finished 12 or so in most stats used to measure a QB.
As I have said before. I am not using this to knock Cutler, only pointing out that the '07 QB stats have to be taken in the context of a 'juiced ball' era.
shank
03-26-2008, 12:11 AM
i have a different answer depending on how i look at it.
i think if you look at his stats and what he's done in the league (albeit a short, young career) there is no way you can place him in the top 10. you can say that he's had better 2nd seasons than many of the quarterbacks ranked higher than him, but that doesn't mean that he's better than them now, it just means that he very well could be when he reaches the same stage of his career that they are currently in.
i can also look at it as who i want to be my qb. if i look at it this way, then cutler is definitely in the top 10. with his very promising start to a young career, with his skills, demeanor, and arm, i don't know if there's another qb that i would take in a heartbeat over cutler. i could even make arguments for having cutler over the likes of brady and manning because of his age and still untapped potential.
in my mind he's in the top 10, but there's no way anyone on another message board would ever accept the argument. give it a little more time, and there'll be no denying it though:salute:
i can also look at it as who i want to be my qb. if i look at it this way, then cutler is definitely in the top 10. with his very promising start to a young career, with his skills, demeanor, and arm, i don't know if there's another qb that i would take in a heartbeat over cutler. i could even make arguments for having cutler over the likes of brady and manning because of his age and still untapped potential.
in my mind he's in the top 10, but there's no way anyone on another message board would ever accept the argument. give it a little more time, and there'll be no denying it though:salute:
With the exception of not jumping on the Brady/Manning comment, you and I are pretty much on the same page. Statistically, and even non-statistic based performance provide nothing to 'prove' he is a top 10 QB, which is why it is hard enough arguing that point here, let alone doing it on another board. However, those of us that have watched him play, seen his team mates rave about him, see the flashes of brilliance between the bonehead throws or seeing him lock onto a receiver before throwing a pick, see great potential in him. It is that potential that makes us 'believe' that he has a very good shot at being a very good, if not great, QB in time.
Lonestar
03-26-2008, 12:22 AM
Carson Palmer was only sacked 17 times this year. Sounds good right? Not really, the entire offensive line was being shuffled about and played awful. He still had a pretty decent year and had to force balls constantly.
/Ends homeristic plug of his favorite player.
JR, Tony Romo is very mobile. Moves far better than Tom Brady. The myth that Tom Brady avoids sacks because of his footwork is just that, a myth. The guy has had a great offensive line for many years and no one talked about them because.........TOM BRADY DOES EVERYTHING FOR THE PATRIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Romo is not immobile.
P. Manning would excel on any team (as would Brady).
Manning would get eaten alive behind our OLINE and our receivers.. would be throwing them under the bus weekly. (See greasy here)
Romo has a great OLINE in front of him with some pretty good WR and RB's
I do not think either would excel in DEN as we speak..
Everyone wanted to blame all the bad stuff on Jake a few years ago that fact of the matter was this team won with smoke and mirrors in 2005 and was exposed in the PIT game and frankly that was the beginning of the end of this franchises elite status..
Now we are rebuilding and that is a fact that NO ONE wanted to admit last season. Everyone save a few of us called it reloading..
Well we all know that was a fallacy, NOW DON"T WE.
That said I think Jay has a good upcoming career in DEN as we speak in the top 15 but he can't do it all by himself he needs a quality OLINE.
topscribe
03-26-2008, 12:41 AM
I think this sums it up pretty well
The problem I have with this line of thinking is that Cutler did it in a year where a BUNCH of QBs had better years than Mariino's and Aikmen's best years. Many of these are journeman QBs, yet they had great statistical years that Marino and Aikmen would have killed to have.
If by others, you mean all the other QB's that were part of this record setting statistical year in '07, he mostly fell between 8th and 13th in most key stats. Kurt Warner and Culter had almost mirror image stats, with Warner edging him in a couple areas.
TD/INT = 12 (slightly 1.43 to 1.4 ahead of 13th and 14th)
completion percentage = 13th
YPC = tied 9th (Jeff garcia)
20+ yard plays = 12
40+ yard plays = 9
QB Rating = 12
Yds/game = 12
As you can see, there is a pattern. In a year of extraordinary QB stats, Cutler finished 12 or so in most stats used to measure a QB.
As I have said before. I am not using this to knock Cutler, only pointing out that the '07 QB stats have to be taken in the context of a 'juiced ball' era.
Well, maybe technically Cutler was, say, 12th by statistics last year. But I
will state categorically that I would rather have him than several of them
who did have better numbers.
-----
topscribe
03-26-2008, 12:51 AM
Youre a couple years early on Dorsett.
That was off the top, as all of it has been so far.
After looking it up, I see Dorsett was the starter in 1988, so you're right.
-----
Lonestar
03-26-2008, 12:55 AM
That was off the top, as all of it has been so far.
After looking it up, I see Dorsett was the starter in 1988, so you're right.
-----
WHAT the Topster was wrong, benchmark that post..
Hey big guy, try green tea it helps with memory..
Stay away from antiperspirants.
topscribe
03-26-2008, 12:57 AM
1967 I believe
My Grandpa had passed away And I was home on emergency leave saw it in Nebraska.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Championship_Game,_1967
You're right. The first championship game I saw was when 1960 Packers lost
the championship to the Eagles. (I had to look that up because of memory
failure.)
I guess after a half-century or so, some things begin to blend together. :sad:
-----
Lonestar
03-26-2008, 01:04 AM
You're right. The first championship game I saw was when 1960 Packers lost
the championship to the Eagles. (I had to look that up because of memory
failure.)
I guess after a half-century or so, some things begin to blend together. :sad:
-----
YA think? Unlike most of the current fans that started watching DEN during the Superbowl years or because of the cool new colors..
Going to bed see you tomorrow.. Say your prayers for some of the *******s..
NameUsedBefore
03-26-2008, 01:15 AM
You're right. The first championship game I saw was when 1960 Packers lost
the championship to the Eagles. (I had to look that up because of memory
failure.)
I guess after a half-century or so, some things begin to blend together. :sad:
-----
"I guess if there's one good thing about me having alzheimer's is that I don't have alzheimer's."
topscribe
03-26-2008, 01:17 AM
"I guess if there's one good thing about me having alzheimer's is that I don't have alzheimer's."
What is Alzheimer's?
I forgot . . . :confused:
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NameUsedBefore
03-26-2008, 01:18 AM
What is Alzheimer's?
I forgot . . . :confused:
-----
Alzheimer's is where did I put the salt shaker?
WARHORSE
03-26-2008, 02:37 AM
Cutler is not only top ten........hes number one.
In my book.:coffee:
Bradys purty good, but my favorite quote of all time of his is "Thats all he thinks we're going to score is 17???........OK. Hes too "GQ" for my taste if you know what I mean. Even though he plays lights out.
Peytons good, but you have to listen to him talk. I'll pass.
Roth? Puleeze.
McNabb? An injury waiting to happen.
Bulger? Nope.
Hassellbeck? I like him, but his arm cant hold up to Jays.
Eli?? No thanks Eli. He always looks like hes going to lose.
I'll take Cutler.:salute:
frenchfan
03-26-2008, 02:57 AM
I was reading through a thread on another site and after reading it I was wondering if Cutler is in fact a top 10 QB right now in this league.
No special Order... Would you have Culter in the top 10 or even top 5?
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Tony Romo
5. Carson Palmer
6. Drew Brees
7. Jay Cutler
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Marc Bulger
10. David Garrard
11. Donovan McNabb
12. David Anderson
13. Matt Schaub
14. Chad Pennington
15. Eli ManningJay can belong to the elite QB list. Will he? Time will tell... He has everything : power, arm, confidence, brain :D, poise... All he need is to use his skills, and have a better team around him.
Look at Eli... Many thought he was a poor QB... He is not the best passer, he best defense reader, but he has something his brother doesn't have : he has faith and is a winner... His play during the SB was great. I've always liked the kid... He is not as good as Peyton, but he's done what fans expected him to : winning it !
Why?
1/ Good team... My Bro is a Giants fan and I told him 3 years ago that Giants would be SB contender in 2 or 3 years...
2/ Eli is great under pressure... Like him or not, that's a fact.
So in conclusion, it's great to have an elite QB, but it's better to give him the team he deserves. :beer:
Our team is young... I think next year we'll be still not good enough... but if we keep the way (improving D and Lines and may be a great RB), we'll be back at the top soon... :salute:
Krugan
03-26-2008, 08:03 AM
I guess if a player is a member of the Denver Broncos, he is to be downgraded.
That seems the general theme with some around here.
So if one grades a Bronco highly, he is a homer. Really, I expected someone
to come up with that.
I went by Cutler's numbers and his come-back abilities, and how advanced
he already is for a second-year player (let alone one who actually played
for his first year). But I guess, to avoid being called "homer," I should have
gone ahead and left Cutler out of where I thought he belongs.
Oh yes, and Champ Bailey is not among the top 10 in cornebacks. After all,
he's a Bronco. :coffee:
-----
Late reply here, meant to follow this more closely, but alas I have a late year flu and everything is about 10 times harder than it should be.
I didnt intend for you to take offense to my usage of Homer, im simply saying, Cutler isnt among the "elite" yet.
Cutler has a heap of talent and a big arm, at least he throws with some serious velocity.
Beside that, he is after all, just starting his 2nd full season. He is rough, he makes poor reads, throws off his back foot, forces plays when not needed(yes repeating myself from earlier). He does things, to often, that the top 5 dont do, well at least not nearly as often as Jay.
I havent downgraded him due to being a Bronco, if anything im holding him to a higher standard because he is a Bronco.
Really, Champ isnt part of this argument, and I highly doubt that there would be more than a handful of people, on any side of the fence, that wouldnt put Champ in the top CB's in the game, or of all time for that matter.
Well, maybe technically Cutler was, say, 12th by statistics last year. But I
will state categorically that I would rather have him than several of them
who did have better numbers.
-----
I agree wholeheartedly. I would also take him over a number of QBs that statistically played better. I was simply:
1. Answering the question of how he stacked up last year in some of those key QB stats (12th/13th for most part)
2. Reinforcing the point that it is a mistake to last his stats last year as a means to compare him to the greats of yesteryear, because we live in a 'juiced ball' era when it comes to QB stats. As someone said early in the thread, it might have to do with the fact few teams are implementing high-risk vertical passing games, but instead are utilizing some variation of a WCO.
YA think? Unlike most of the current fans that started watching DEN during the Superbowl years or because of the cool new colors..
Yes, some for the colors, some for the SBs...
Then again, some of us became fans later in life simply because we were 'born' later in the century.
I wasn't born in '67, so didn't see games that year, but I don't think that makes me any 'less' of a fan. I have watched or listened (on the radio or internet radio) to every Broncos game since mid '85.
In order to accomplish that I have had to have a 100' long AM antenna in my back yard, and a 12' Satelite dish in my yard hooked to a highly illegal sattelite receiver that required me to spend my share of nights in back rooms in the middle of the night getting the videocipher II re-hacked. Since DirecTV started offering the NFL package, I gladly paid for it and have every year, but before that time, your choices were not getting the games or back room modifications to the old C band sattelite systems.
Just thought I would add some inshight into how being a 'newer' fan can still make you a real fan, even if you missed the 60's and 70's.
[/rant]
Late reply here, meant to follow this more closely, but alas I have a late year flu and everything is about 10 times harder than it should be.
I didnt intend for you to take offense to my usage of Homer, im simply saying, Cutler isnt among the "elite" yet.
Cutler has a heap of talent and a big arm, at least he throws with some serious velocity.
Beside that, he is after all, just starting his 2nd full season. He is rough, he makes poor reads, throws off his back foot, forces plays when not needed(yes repeating myself from earlier). He does things, to often, that the top 5 dont do, well at least not nearly as often as Jay.
I havent downgraded him due to being a Bronco, if anything im holding him to a higher standard because he is a Bronco.
Really, Champ isnt part of this argument, and I highly doubt that there would be more than a handful of people, on any side of the fence, that wouldnt put Champ in the top CB's in the game, or of all time for that matter.
I really like this post. This comes very, very close to completely summing up how I feel.
I agree wholeheartedly. I would also take him over a number of QBs that statistically played better. I was simply:
1. Answering the question of how he stacked up last year in some of those key QB stats (12th/13th for most part)
2. Reinforcing the point that it is a mistake to last his stats last year as a means to compare him to the greats of yesteryear, because we live in a 'juiced ball' era when it comes to QB stats. As someone said early in the thread, it might have to do with the fact few teams are implementing high-risk vertical passing games, but instead are utilizing some variation of a WCO.
That was me. But it doesnt end there. Not only is it the WCO but the QB rating has really arrived at the point where it really seems to affect play calling. It used to be just another stat like yards, or TDs, or completion %. It wasnt the end all, be all. But some teams had more yards and some teams had higher QB ratings as a function of play design or play calling. The QB rating was a stat that represented a way of looking at what happened on the field, where the decision making was independent of the QB rating. But over time, it seems that it has gone from reflecting what happened on the field to influencing what happens on the field. Basically, its similar to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And another thing, youve also had waves of rule changes aimed at protecting the QB that really makes things apples and oranges. The way QBs, namely the top tier QBs, get protected today is ridiculous.
topscribe
03-26-2008, 12:43 PM
Late reply here, meant to follow this more closely, but alas I have a late year flu and everything is about 10 times harder than it should be.
I didnt intend for you to take offense to my usage of Homer, im simply saying, Cutler isnt among the "elite" yet.
Cutler has a heap of talent and a big arm, at least he throws with some serious velocity.
Beside that, he is after all, just starting his 2nd full season. He is rough, he makes poor reads, throws off his back foot, forces plays when not needed(yes repeating myself from earlier). He does things, to often, that the top 5 dont do, well at least not nearly as often as Jay.
I havent downgraded him due to being a Bronco, if anything im holding him to a higher standard because he is a Bronco.
Really, Champ isnt part of this argument, and I highly doubt that there would be more than a handful of people, on any side of the fence, that wouldnt put Champ in the top CB's in the game, or of all time for that matter.
Of course, Jay is still growing, and he isn't as good as he will be next year,
and he won't be as good next year as he will the year after.
Just one comment: I've seen complaints of Cutler's throwing off his back
foot. He does that because he can. With power. And because he happens
to be under terrific pressure a great deal of the time. I am sure a lot of that
will change as the OL gels and provides improved protection.
Regarding forcing plays, while he will become more selective in the future,
I don't see him ceasing in squeezing the ball into tight windows. Again, he
does that because he can. He will throw INTs that way, just as Favre did,
but, just as Favre was, he is daring, exciting, and can make plays almost
no one else can make . . . name me one today who can do it as Cutler can,
now what Favre is retired. Most don't have the arm. Those who do have
the arm don't have the accuracy. Mechanically, in fact, that may be Jay's
best asset: accuracy under fire. Vandy may have been a blessing to him
there.
He will continue often to have bad first halves and second-half comebacks,
just as Elway did, because he is that type of gunslinger. We might as well
get used to it now.
-----
Lonestar
03-26-2008, 01:11 PM
Yes, some for the colors, some for the SBs...
Then again, some of us became fans later in life simply because we were 'born' later in the century.
I wasn't born in '67, so didn't see games that year, but I don't think that makes me any 'less' of a fan. I have watched or listened (on the radio or internet radio) to every Broncos game since mid '85.
In order to accomplish that I have had to have a 100' long AM antenna in my back yard, and a 12' Satelite dish in my yard hooked to a highly illegal sattelite receiver that required me to spend my share of nights in back rooms in the middle of the night getting the videocipher II re-hacked. Since DirecTV started offering the NFL package, I gladly paid for it and have every year, but before that time, your choices were not getting the games or back room modifications to the old C band sattelite systems.
Just thought I would add some inshight into how being a 'newer' fan can still make you a real fan, even if you missed the 60's and 70's.
[/rant]
I really like this post. This comes very, very close to completely summing up how I feel.
But you have to admit many current fans would no be here without those super bowls and the new unis..
Very VERY few fans Have done what you have to see the team.. :salute:
topscribe
03-26-2008, 01:13 PM
That was me. But it doesnt end there. Not only is it the WCO but the QB rating has really arrived at the point where it really seems to affect play calling. It used to be just another stat like yards, or TDs, or completion %. It wasnt the end all, be all. But some teams had more yards and some teams had higher QB ratings as a function of play design or play calling. The QB rating was a stat that represented a way of looking at what happened on the field, where the decision making was independent of the QB rating. But over time, it seems that it has gone from reflecting what happened on the field to influencing what happens on the field. Basically, its similar to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
And another thing, youve also had waves of rule changes aimed at protecting the QB that really makes things apples and oranges. The way QBs, namely the top tier QBs, get protected today is ridiculous.
Of course, you're right about the increased protection. I don't know how
ridiculous it is though: QBs are still getting hurt.
Also what helps QBs today are the "no touch" rules against pass defenders.
It has to be easier to get separation than it used to.
Nonetheless, my comparisons involved alllllllll of the G.O.A.T. QBs, including
the contemporary ones. Even with today's rules, my contention is that a
QB has to be very good to be better than virtually all of them in his second
year, including his contemporaries.
------
topscribe
03-26-2008, 01:20 PM
But you have to admit many current fans would no be here without those super bowls and the new unis..
Very VERY few fans Have done what you have to see the team.. :salute:
Maybe what you're getting at (correct me if I'm wrong) is this:
A few of us old-timers suffered with the team through 13 losing seasons, from
1960 to 1974. (I previously kept saying 14, until I went back and checked.)
That's 13 straight, without a break. The Broncos were almost a bye week to
opposing teams coming in.
And the Broncos still often filled the stadium.
If the Broncos were to go through another multi-year seige such as that, I
reckon the number of fans would dwindle back to such true, die-hard fans.
Bandwagons are very prevalent among perennially winning teams . . .
-----
Of course, you're right about the increased protection. I don't know how
ridiculous it is though: QBs are still getting hurt.
Also what helps QBs today are the "no touch" rules against pass defenders.
It has to be easier to get separation than it used to.
Nonetheless, my comparisons involved alllllllll of the G.O.A.T. QBs, including
the contemporary ones. Even with today's rules, my contention is that a
QB has to be very good to be better than virtually all of them in his second
year, including his contemporaries.
------
Dont take my post as an attack on your thesis. Im not even sure what it is in its full form. However, I agree with Tned about the comparisons to players from the past. If you want to make the point that Cutler has been impressive using stats, I dont really have a problem with that but where you get in a tricky area is when you say he is superior. But in the end, its not about how good he is in his second season, which is water under the bridge, as much as its about delivering later. If you want to extrapolate using his second season, thats fine with me but I feel no burden to do so. Im glad we have him but time will tell in terms of how good/great he will be.
broncophan
03-26-2008, 01:31 PM
Until Cutler....and his team can start winning more games than they lose........there is no way he should even be considered one of the top qb's in the league.
Lets revisit this thread in 3 or 4 years....after Cutler learns how to be an nfl qb.
Until Cutler....and his team can start winning more games than they lose........there is no way he should even be considered one of the top qb's in the league.
Lets revisit this thread in 3 or 4 years....after Cutler learns how to be an nfl qb.
Does Cutler play DT or WLB?
topscribe
03-26-2008, 01:40 PM
Dont take my post as an attack on your thesis. Im not even sure what it is in its full form. However, I agree with Tned about the comparisons to players from the past. If you want to make the point that Cutler has been impressive using stats, I dont really have a problem with that but where you get in a tricky area is when you say he is superior. But in the end, its not about how good he is in his second season, which is water under the bridge, as much as its about delivering later. If you want to extrapolate using his second season, thats fine with me but I feel no burden to do so. Im glad we have him but time will tell in terms of how good/great he will be.
That's why, as I have repeatedly stressed right here in this thread, I
included today's quarterbacks. *sigh*
My point is that Cutler was among the top 10 QBs in 2007. I was not
extrapolating anything further than that. To say that Cutler is top 10 as a
career QB is ridiculous.
Will he be top 10 in 2008? Stay tuned. But I was not comparing careers.
And we need to get off this W-L business (not aimed at you, Lex). As
someone said in this thread, football is a team game. Cutler can't win games
all by himself, especially when the defense gets them so far down that
there is no coming back.
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sanluis
03-26-2008, 01:48 PM
I was reading through a thread on another site and after reading it I was wondering if Cutler is in fact a top 10 QB right now in this league.
No special Order... Would you have Culter in the top 10 or even top 5?
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Tony Romo
5. Carson Palmer
6. Drew Brees
7. Jay Cutler
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Marc Bulger
10. David Garrard
11. Donovan McNabb
12. David Anderson
13. Matt Schaub
14. Chad Pennington
15. Eli Manning
Top five
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Drew Brees
11. Donovan McNabb
Top ten
4. Tony Romo
5. Carson Palmer
9. Marc Bulger
8. Phillip Rivers
10. David Garrard
I think Jay needs to prove himself over one more season before we put him in the top ten by winning some playoff games. He certainly has shown the potential.
topscribe
03-26-2008, 01:50 PM
Top five
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Drew Brees
11. Donovan McNabb
Top ten
4. Tony Romo
5. Carson Palmer
9. Marc Bulger
8. Phillip Rivers
10. David Garrard
I think Jay needs to prove himself over one more season before we put him in the top ten by winning some playoff games. He certainly has shown the potential.
I wonder whether Rivers would have won a playoff game for the 2007 Broncos . . .
After some thought (about two or three seconds) . . . nope.
-----
That's why, as I have repeatedly stressed right here in this thread, I
included today's quarterbacks. *sigh*
My point is that Cutler was among the top 10 QBs in 2007. I was not
extrapolating anything further than that. To say that Cutler is top 10 as a
career QB is ridiculous.
And this is also why I said I wasnt focused on your thesis per se. I was mainly commenting on comparing eras and such and wasnt sure if what you were saying was in that field of fire. It doesnt seem like it was. Im not sure why you were disagreeing with me as it doesnt seem like we were commenting on the same topic.
Will he be top 10 in 2008? Stay tuned. But I was not comparing careers.
And we need to get off this W-L business (not aimed at you, Lex). As
someone said in this thread, football is a team game. Cutler can't win games
all by himself, especially when the defense gets them so far down that
there is no coming back.
I dont even know how it could be aimed at me. When it comes to this Ws and Ls and rings, Im first in line to call it nonsense.
topscribe
03-26-2008, 01:56 PM
And this is also why I said I wasnt focused on your thesis per se. I was mainly commenting on comparing eras and such and wasnt sure if what you were saying was in that field of fire. It doesnt seem like it was. Im not sure why you were disagreeing with me as it doesnt seem like we were commenting on the same topic.
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was explaining how I agreed, in fact, I thought.
I dont even know how it could be aimed at me. When it comes to this Ws and Ls and rings, Im first in line to call it nonsense.Exactly, which is why I explained that I was not responding to you. It was
in reference to comments by others, and I simply put it into that post. I
guess I should have put it into a separate post to make that clear. My fault.
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sanluis
03-26-2008, 01:59 PM
I wonder whether Rivers would have won a playoff game for the 2007 Broncos . . .
After some thought (about two or three seconds) . . . nope.
-----
I wonder if Tom Brady would of... nope I don't think he would. So I get your point Tops. But I still think Brady is a top QB just like I think Rivers has proven.
Jay has only started one full season. So before I put him in the top ten I need at least one more season of consistent performance. If he is protected by his line and Denver has some luck with injuries I am pretty sure Jay will get the job done.
topscribe
03-26-2008, 02:10 PM
I wonder if Tom Brady would of... nope I don't think he would. So I get your point Tops. But I still think Brady is a top QB just like I think Rivers has proven.
Jay has only started one full season. So before I put him in the top ten I need at least one more season of consistent performance. If he is protected by his line and Denver has some luck with injuries I am pretty sure Jay will get the job done.
That is why I included only 2007 for Cutler and did not include Rivers in the
top 10 at all. In my own personal opinion, until Rivers can quarterback such
an immensely talented team as the Chargers (more talented even than the
Pats, IMO) to a Super Bowl he does not belong there. "To whom much is
given, much is expected."
John Elway is proven. Brett Favre is proven. Tom Brady is proven.
Rivers is not proven. Cutler is not proven.
fcspikeit
03-26-2008, 03:08 PM
There are plenty of reasons people will think one guy is better or worse then another..
IMO the best way to do it is to ask this, If you were building a team and the QB had to be picked first, where would Cutler be picked?
We Broncos fans like him so we might pick him higher then others around the league, But as a whole, I believe he would be picked 5 -10.
Every pick would be under the assumption of what each guy can/will do next year. Therefore every pick would be based on potential.. However, looking at past performances would be one of the reasons you would select a guy. Winning % would be pretty far down the list IMO. Remember, you would be selecting the QB first, so it would be all about the ability of the QB and not the team around him. A lot of the guys on the list by themselves don't look as good when you take all the pro bowlers away from them.
Look at Bulger, after the talent around him fell off so did his play. It's hard to argue with his #s, but when you just look at his abilities alone, against Cutler's abilities, Cutler would be picked 9 times out of 10 ahead of Bulger.
I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was explaining how I agreed, in fact, I thought.
Exactly, which is why I explained that I was not responding to you. It was
in reference to comments by others, and I simply put it into that post. I
guess I should have put it into a separate post to make that clear. My fault.
-----
There was no way of knowing that based on what you said. It was a little ambiguous. I just wanted to disavow all potential association with what you were saying.
red98
03-26-2008, 04:08 PM
Top five
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Ben Roethlisberger
6. Drew Brees
11. Donovan McNabb
Top ten
4. Tony Romo
5. Carson Palmer
9. Marc Bulger
8. Phillip Rivers
10. David Garrard
I think Jay needs to prove himself over one more season before we put him in the top ten by winning some playoff games. He certainly has shown the potential.
How many playoff games did Romo win?
Retired_Member_001
03-26-2008, 05:43 PM
To be honest, if Cutler had a good offensive line, consistently good running game and a better average starting field position, he could be up there. At the moment he is not a Top 10 quarterback for me because he hasn't had a winning record yet. He is the best Quarterback prospect at the moment though. It's very hard for a Quarterback to shine on a below average team.
sanluis
03-26-2008, 08:01 PM
How many playoff games did Romo win?
Good point, He did help lead his team to the playoffs twice. No wins for his efforts and some would say he bares most of the blame for his ultra talented team's failures.
Jake Delome is another QB I like. He makes good decisions and when given time does a good job getting the ball to his stud wide receiver. We will have to see how his elbow is doing.
aberdien
03-26-2008, 10:55 PM
I didnt intend for you to take offense to my usage of Homer, im simply saying, Cutler isnt among the "elite" yet.
Cutler has a heap of talent and a big arm, at least he throws with some serious velocity.
Beside that, he is after all, just starting his 2nd full season. He is rough, he makes poor reads, throws off his back foot, forces plays when not needed(yes repeating myself from earlier). He does things, to often, that the top 5 dont do, well at least not nearly as often as Jay.
I havent downgraded him due to being a Bronco, if anything im holding him to a higher standard because he is a Bronco.
This is the point I was trying to get at top. (sorry about the "pissing contest":lol:)
But if we were ranking the quarterbacks in terms of potential, Cutler would be first on my list NO DOUBT. He is above Big Ben in terms of potential, and the only guy that might have a change at edging him out for #1 is Carson Palmer, but I still have Cutler number one. He WILL be great. He is not yet though.:beer:
broncosfanscott
03-27-2008, 12:15 AM
Not yet. He doesn't have a winning record as a QB so I would have to put him just outside looking in. A good season in '08 will put him there with no problem. Potentially he is above many of the QBs out there and he has done well considering the holes we need to fill and all the injuries we had.
broncophan
03-27-2008, 05:33 AM
Does Cutler play DT or WLB?
no.....he better just worry about learning how to be an nfl qb.......then he can worry about learning other positions if his coaches want him too.
topscribe
03-27-2008, 12:57 PM
no.....he better just worry about learning how to be an nfl qb.......then he can worry about learning other positions if his coaches want him too.
I think Lex made his point quite well. A win or a loss in a game is decided, not
just by how a QB does his job, but by how the other 44 players do theirs.
You could have Joe Montana under center, but if the defense cannot stop the
other team, Montana is not going to win the game.
When I evaluate a player, I don't do it according to how the other players
around him perform. I do it by how he performs. Had Cutler played for the
Chargers or Patriots last year, he would have a winning record. That he
played for the Broncos does not make him a different player, but that he
simply played in a different place.
Therefore, looking specifically at Cutler, exclusive of the other players, I
deem Cutler as one of the top four or five QBs I would rather have . . .
right now. :coffee:
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broncophan
03-28-2008, 09:24 AM
I think Lex made his point quite well. A win or a loss in a game is decided, not
just by how a QB does his job, but by how the other 44 players do theirs.
You could have Joe Montana under center, but if the defense cannot stop the
other team, Montana is not going to win the game.
When I evaluate a player, I don't do it according to how the other players
around him perform. I do it by how he performs. Had Cutler played for the
Chargers or Patriots last year, he would have a winning record. That he
played for the Broncos does not make him a different player, but that he
simply played in a different place.
Therefore, looking specifically at Cutler, exclusive of the other players, I
deem Cutler as one of the top four or five QBs I would rather have . . .
right now. :coffee:
-----
We'll see....as Cutler learns how to play the game at the nfl level......a little different than the Vanderbilt level.
When I evaluate a player.....I look at wins and losses.....and yea....I know he doesn't play defense..I don't expect Cutler and/or his team to be anywhere near the playoffs for at least 3 years....maybe longer.
The fact is Cutler and his team have lost more than they have won....and Cutler has to learn
A good qb.....make his team better....and leads his team.....at the least, to more wins than losses.
Cutler will hopefully learn....but the broncos better get him ALOT of talent....he needs it.....
Sadly......it is going to be a rough 3 or 4 years ahead, as Cutler learns how to be an nfl qb.
It may be longer.......if the broncos struggle next season, like they did this past season.....Shanahan will be gone.....and then Cutler will be even more confused....with a new coaching staff.
Nobody in Denver has the patience to wait at least another 3 or 4 years to get back to the playoffs.
Top 10 qb???.....not even close......potential???? yes........give the kid another 3 or 4 years.....
BOSSHOGG30
03-28-2008, 09:28 AM
We'll see....as Cutler learns how to play the game at the nfl level......a little different than the Vanderbilt level.
When I evaluate a player.....I look at wins and losses.....and yea....I know he doesn't play defense..I don't expect Cutler and/or his team to be anywhere near the playoffs for at least 3 years....maybe longer.
The fact is Cutler and his team have lost more than they have won....and Cutler has to learn
A good qb.....make his team better....and leads his team.....at the least, to more wins than losses.
Cutler will hopefully learn....but the broncos better get him ALOT of talent....he needs it.....
Sadly......it is going to be a rough 3 or 4 years ahead, as Cutler learns how to be an nfl qb.
It may be longer.......if the broncos struggle next season, like they did this past season.....Shanahan will be gone.....and then Cutler will be even more confused....with a new coaching staff.
Nobody in Denver has the patience to wait at least another 3 or 4 years to get back to the playoffs.
Top 10 qb???.....not even close......potential???? yes........give the kid another 3 or 4 years.....
There are a lot of young QB's in this league right now that are in the same situation as Cutler if not worse. With Farve retiring Cutler moves up at least one slot. What 10 QB's in the league right now do you think are heads and shoulders better than Cutler, since you say Cutler a top 10 QB.... not even close
topscribe
03-28-2008, 12:57 PM
We'll see....as Cutler learns how to play the game at the nfl level......a little different than the Vanderbilt level.
You and a couple others keep saying this, that he has to learn how to play
at the pro level. In the 16 games Cutler played last year, he passed for
3,497 yards for a 7.5 YPC. That included 20 TDs and 14 INTs for a 63.6%
completion ratio and a QB rating of 88.1.
Oh yes, he also rushed for 205 yards and a 4.7 average.
At what point does this indicate he doesn't know how to play at that level? :confused:
Regarding your insistence on sticking on one extremely variable factor such
as a W-L record in evaluating a quarterback, or any player, I would not
want you on my research team. One just doesn't rely on such a dependent
variable in arriving at a hypothesis.
If we are considering a tennis player or golfer, then a W-L record is a far
more independent variable. It can largely stand on its own over a period of
time. The outcome of a football game, however, is determined by 90
players, 45 on each side, and a couple dozen coaches. Yes, the quarterback
handles the football on virtually every offensive play. But he gives it to
someone else on virtually every play. It is then up the the RB or receiver to
make something of it. That, of course, depends on what kind of blocking
they get to help them do just that. Eleven people are involved in any one
play, going against eleven other people for the opponent.
And then, how many times (plays) they get to do this fully depends on how
adept the defense is at getting the offense back onto the field.
All this determines the final score in a game. Two major factors come into
consideration here: (1) how often the offense scores, and (2) how well the
defense prevents the other side from scoring.
As I just implied, the defense's role is dual: (1) prevent the other side from
scoring and (2) getting the ball back for the offense so it can score.
Last year, the defense for the Denver Broncos stank on both counts. In
rushing defense, they were 30th in yards allowed, 31st in YPA, and 29th
in rushing attempts by the opponent . . . that latter which vividly shows
their general failure in getting the ball back for the offense.
I would really like to see some documentation from those who claim Cutler
has to learn how to play football. I would also like to see an elaboration
from those who insist that the W-L record is the major factor in evaluating
a quarterback. You've now seen mine; let me see yours. :coffee:
P.S. In Elway's 16 years, his team lost 88 games during the regular season.
They were 8-8 during three of those, and two others were losing seasons.
At what point during those years could it be determined Elway did not know
how to play football at the professional level?
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fcspikeit
03-28-2008, 01:10 PM
We'll see....as Cutler learns how to play the game at the nfl level......a little different than the Vanderbilt level.
When I evaluate a player.....I look at wins and losses.....and yea....I know he doesn't play defense..I don't expect Cutler and/or his team to be anywhere near the playoffs for at least 3 years....maybe longer.
The fact is Cutler and his team have lost more than they have won....and Cutler has to learn
A good qb.....make his team better....and leads his team.....at the least, to more wins than losses.
Cutler will hopefully learn....but the broncos better get him ALOT of talent....he needs it.....
Sadly......it is going to be a rough 3 or 4 years ahead, as Cutler learns how to be an nfl qb.
It may be longer.......if the broncos struggle next season, like they did this past season.....Shanahan will be gone.....and then Cutler will be even more confused....with a new coaching staff.
Nobody in Denver has the patience to wait at least another 3 or 4 years to get back to the playoffs.
Top 10 qb???.....not even close......potential???? yes........give the kid another 3 or 4 years.....
Where would you rank Marino using this logic? Rex Grossman would have to be in the top 10 because he has a better winning %, the last few years then most on the list...
Lets look at Carson Palmer, Is his winning % worthy of being in the top 10 QB's? Sure a guys ability to make plays when it matters the most and win games is important. But it is laughable to only look at wins and losses..
I don't care what you say, Carson Palmer is a better QB then Rex Grossman!
underrated29
03-28-2008, 01:17 PM
Wins and losses is just not a smart way to evaluate.
Since eli manning's team won the superbowl does that now make hima great QB? Would you take him as your starting QB in ff?
If so, i want to be in your league, as i will own. Wins and losses mean JACK! Eli has wins, he is an average to above average QB, he might improve more next year, he might even become great, but for now as a player he is average. His wins say otherwise- you can decide who you would rather have, the winner qb thats average, or the loser Qb that way better.
Or flip it. like top said, put jay on the giants he would improve their team. Put eli on the broncos, i think it would be a downgrade.
Jay has demonstrated that he can march our team down the field. Being what 4th in total offensive yards or something. He has shown that he can make the comeback drives when the games on the line.
It is not his fault we cant run the ball in the endzone. He doesnt call the plays, he cant decide when we run and when we pass. Or if the wr drops the ball.
You and a couple others keep saying this, that he has to learn how to play
at the pro level. In the 16 games Cutler played last year, he passed for
3,497 yards for a 7.5 YPC. That included 20 TDs and 14 INTs for a 63.6%
completion ratio and a QB rating of 88.1.
Oh yes, he also rushed for 205 yards and a 4.7 average.
I agree with you that it isn't accurate to say he is playing at a Vanderbilt level vs. an NFL level, but it is important to remember what I posted earlier in this thread. We are in the equivalent of a juiced ball era when it comes to QB stats. You quoted what looks like some nice stats above, but based on the inflated QB stats last year, Cutler's actual rank among other QBs wasn't that hot.
TD/INT = 12 (slightly ahead of 13th and 14th - 1.43 to 1.4 )
Total TDs = 13
Total INTs = 12th worst (12th most INTs)
completion percentage = 13th
YPC = tied 9th (Jeff garcia)
20+ yard plays = 12
40+ yard plays = 9
QB Rating = 12
Yds/game = 12
Total Yards = 10
Rushing Yards = 12
YPR = 9
As you can see, based on stats produced in this 'juiced ball' era, Cutler is a little better than middle of the pack, or a little worse than top 10, depending on how you want to look at it (glass half empty, glass half full).
fcspikeit
03-28-2008, 10:08 PM
I agree with you that it isn't accurate to say he is playing at a Vanderbilt level vs. an NFL level, but it is important to remember what I posted earlier in this thread. We are in the equivalent of a juiced ball era when it comes to QB stats. You quoted what looks like some nice stats above, but based on the inflated QB stats last year, Cutler's actual rank among other QBs wasn't that hot.
TD/INT = 12 (slightly ahead of 13th and 14th - 1.43 to 1.4 )
Total TDs = 13
Total INTs = 12th worst (12th most INTs)
completion percentage = 13th
YPC = tied 9th (Jeff garcia)
20+ yard plays = 12
40+ yard plays = 9
QB Rating = 12
Yds/game = 12
Total Yards = 10
Rushing Yards = 12
YPR = 9
As you can see, based on stats produced in this 'juiced ball' era, Cutler is a little better than middle of the pack, or a little worse than top 10, depending on how you want to look at it (glass half empty, glass half full).
As usual, the #'s don't tell the whole story. We Broncos fan's have a better insight into everything that lead to Cutlers #'s because we watched every game.
Make your list of the top 10 QB's off of the top of your head. Then look at the #'s of your top 10. I am willing to bet 2 to 4 guys you picked aren't in the top 10 rankings last year. One good thing about Cutler is that he is pretty consistently ranked across the board. Some guys you will see, are in the top 10 in some things then in the bottom 10 in others.
One last thing, when doing a list like the top QB's for next year, you have to figure in potential. Most people feel Cutler will be better going into his 3rd year. Take Mark Bulger for instance, No one figures he will be as bad next year. Therefore, he will and should be in/close to the top 10. If a person was only looking at the #'s from last year, he wouldn't be considered because he wasn't very good last year for a number of reasons..
TXBRONC
03-28-2008, 10:22 PM
We'll see....as Cutler learns how to play the game at the nfl level......a little different than the Vanderbilt level.
When I evaluate a player.....I look at wins and losses.....and yea....I know he doesn't play defense..I don't expect Cutler and/or his team to be anywhere near the playoffs for at least 3 years....maybe longer.
The fact is Cutler and his team have lost more than they have won....and Cutler has to learn
A good qb.....make his team better....and leads his team.....at the least, to more wins than losses.
Cutler will hopefully learn....but the broncos better get him ALOT of talent....he needs it.....
Sadly......it is going to be a rough 3 or 4 years ahead, as Cutler learns how to be an nfl qb.
It may be longer.......if the broncos struggle next season, like they did this past season.....Shanahan will be gone.....and then Cutler will be even more confused....with a new coaching staff.
Nobody in Denver has the patience to wait at least another 3 or 4 years to get back to the playoffs.
Top 10 qb???.....not even close......potential???? yes........give the kid another 3 or 4 years.....
If that's what you go by then Vince Young is a top ten quarterback, using that kind of logic.
I would say Jay is a lot closer to being a top ten quarterback than Young is.
fcspikeit
03-28-2008, 10:58 PM
I agree with you that it isn't accurate to say he is playing at a Vanderbilt level vs. an NFL level, but it is important to remember what I posted earlier in this thread. We are in the equivalent of a juiced ball era when it comes to QB stats. You quoted what looks like some nice stats above, but based on the inflated QB stats last year, Cutler's actual rank among other QBs wasn't that hot.
TD/INT = 12 (slightly ahead of 13th and 14th - 1.43 to 1.4 )
Total TDs = 13
Total INTs = 12th worst (12th most INTs)
completion percentage = 13th
YPC = tied 9th (Jeff garcia)
20+ yard plays = 12
40+ yard plays = 9
QB Rating = 12
Yds/game = 12
Total Yards = 10
Rushing Yards = 12
YPR = 9
As you can see, based on stats produced in this 'juiced ball' era, Cutler is a little better than middle of the pack, or a little worse than top 10, depending on how you want to look at it (glass half empty, glass half full).
NFL.com/QB stats (http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats;jsessionid=377FB94351AF1B7B31103FE95 DAB8111?season=2007&seasonType=REG&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_PASSER_RATING&d-447263-n=1)
Other top QB's that were out of the top 10,
Total TDs = 13 Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Donovan McNabb, Jeff Garcia, Marc Bulger
Total INTs = 12th worst (12th most INTs) Ben Roethlisberger, Matt Hasselbeck, Peyton Manning, Philip Rivers, Brett Favre, Marc Bulger, Drew Brees, Tony Romo, Derek Anderson, Carson Palmer, Eli Manning. (All after Manning were worse then Cutler)
completion percentage = 13th Jeff Garcia, Matt Hasselbeck, Donovan McNabb, Philip Rivers, Marc Bulger, Derek Anderson, Eli Manning
YPC = tied 9th (Jeff garcia) Derek Anderson, Carson Palmer, Matt Hasselbeck, Donovan McNabb, Philip Rivers, Drew Brees, Marc Bulger, Eli Manning. (All behind Cutler)
20+ yard plays = 12 Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, Donovan McNabb, Marc Bulger, Jeff Garcia. (All behind Cutler)
40+ yard plays = 9 Derek Anderson, Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Philip Rivers, Marc Bulger. (All behind Cutler)
QB Rating = 12 Drew Brees, Carson Palmer, Derek Anderson, Philip Rivers, Eli Manning, Marc Bulger
Yds/game = 12 Donovan McNabb, Derek Anderson, Ben Roethlisberger, Eli Manning, Marc Bulger, Philip Rivers, Jeff Garcia,
Total Yards = 10 Eli Manning, Donovan McNabb, Ben Roethlisberger, Philip Rivers, Jeff Garcia, Marc Bulger, (All behind Cutler)
After looking at that, Donovan McNabb should be nowhere near the top 10. He was behind Cutler in almost ever stat.. In fact, there are 5 to 8 of the top guys behind Cutler in almost every stat.
I only wrote the guys behind Cutler who IMO could be considered in the top 10 last year. Here is a list of those guys in no particular order..
Tom Brady
Ben Roethlisberger
Peyton Manning
Tony Romo
Brett Favre
Jeff Garcia
Matt Hasselbeck
Donovan McNabb
Drew Brees
Carson Palmer
Derek Anderson
Philip Rivers
Eli Manning
Marc Bulger
I didn't list all the times David Garrard & Vince Young were behind Cutler and out of the top 10. I probably should have listed Garrard, Young however is behind Cutler in almost ever stat. In fact, he is among the worst in ever stat. No sane person would consider Young as one of the top 10 QB's.
topscribe
03-28-2008, 11:24 PM
I agree with you that it isn't accurate to say he is playing at a Vanderbilt level vs. an NFL level, but it is important to remember what I posted earlier in this thread. We are in the equivalent of a juiced ball era when it comes to QB stats. You quoted what looks like some nice stats above, but based on the inflated QB stats last year, Cutler's actual rank among other QBs wasn't that hot.
TD/INT = 12 (slightly ahead of 13th and 14th - 1.43 to 1.4 )
Total TDs = 13
Total INTs = 12th worst (12th most INTs)
completion percentage = 13th
YPC = tied 9th (Jeff garcia)
20+ yard plays = 12
40+ yard plays = 9
QB Rating = 12
Yds/game = 12
Total Yards = 10
Rushing Yards = 12
YPR = 9
As you can see, based on stats produced in this 'juiced ball' era, Cutler is a little better than middle of the pack, or a little worse than top 10, depending on how you want to look at it (glass half empty, glass half full).
Actually that was a response to a poster who said Cutler had not yet
learned to play football on the professional level, and the rest of that post
was in answer to the persistence in using the W-L record to evaluate a
quarterback.
I believe I conceded all this other stuff to you previously in this thread,
didn't I?
-----
To the three quotes of my stats above:
To be clear, I am not saying that stats tell the whole story, just that Cutler's stats can't be looked at in isolation and say, "see what a good statistical year he had" when
First, there were 15 or 20 QBs that based on last years stats were better than Marino and Aikman in most of their best years.
Second, for most important statistical categories, there were 10-12 QBs that did better than Cutler last year.
As to making the list. I think Cutler has loads of potential. I think in time (how much, who knows) he will be one of the best QBs in the league. However, I can't honestly say that he is currently a top 10, and certainly not top 5, QB if I am looking at who has shown he gives their team the best chance of winning NOW, based on what they have shown on the field to date.
I HOPE that '08 will be the year he really blossoms, and part of that is Shanny making sure they start calling plays that have a chance of working with our offensive talent, and the players around Cutler producing. However, that is only part of it. Cutler still has plenty of improving that he needs to do. Again, I HOPE that he makes a big leap going from his second to third year, but only time will tell.
fcspikeit
03-29-2008, 05:03 AM
To the three quotes of my stats above:
To be clear, I am not saying that stats tell the whole story, just that Cutler's stats can't be looked at in isolation and say, "see what a good statistical year he had" when
First, there were 15 or 20 QBs that based on last years stats were better than Marino and Aikman in most of their best years.
Second, for most important statistical categories, there were 10-12 QBs that did better than Cutler last year.
As to making the list. I think Cutler has loads of potential. I think in time (how much, who knows) he will be one of the best QBs in the league. However, I can't honestly say that he is currently a top 10, and certainly not top 5, QB if I am looking at who has shown he gives their team the best chance of winning NOW, based on what they have shown on the field to date.
I HOPE that '08 will be the year he really blossoms, and part of that is Shanny making sure they start calling plays that have a chance of working with our offensive talent, and the players around Cutler producing. However, that is only part of it. Cutler still has plenty of improving that he needs to do. Again, I HOPE that he makes a big leap going from his second to third year, but only time will tell.
To get a better idea of what I am talking about, I added up the total rankings of the 17 considered to be the top QB's from last year.
The stats I added up are, Comp Pct, Yds, Avg gain, Yds/G, TD, Int, 20+, 40+, & QB Rating.
Here's how it turned out..
1. Tom Brady = 18
2. Brett Favre = 57
3. Tony Romo = 58
4. Peyton Manning = 61
5. Drew Brees = 67
6. Ben Roethlisberger = 82
7. Matt Hasselbeck = 92
8. Carson Palmer = 95
9. David Garrard = 102
10. Donovan McNabb = 106
11. Jay Cutler = 112
12. Jeff Garcia = 116
13. Derek Anderson = 127
14. Eli Manning = 151
15. Philip Rivers = 159
16. Vince Young = 197
17. Marc Bulger = 215
Beings Favre retired, going into this year Cutler would be 10th..
Please keep in mind, the bottom 4 here probably would have been ranked even worse if I would have added up all 33 eligible QB's from last year. I believe Bulger, Young & Manning would have been in the bottom 10.
broncophan
03-29-2008, 06:50 AM
Where would you rank Marino using this logic? Rex Grossman would have to be in the top 10 because he has a better winning %, the last few years then most on the list...
Lets look at Carson Palmer, Is his winning % worthy of being in the top 10 QB's? Sure a guys ability to make plays when it matters the most and win games is important. But it is laughable to only look at wins and losses..
I don't care what you say, Carson Palmer is a better QB then Rex Grossman!
Without looking....I would guess Marino/his teams have won a heckuva lot more games than Cutler/his team have .:D....although I never cared for Marino....great qb....but was concerned too much about his personal stats imo.....still Marino made his teams better.
Grossman played for a great Bears team......his team compensated for alot of his mistakes....mistake prone qb.....does not make his teams better.
Palmer......he is or has been surrounded with so many problem players on his teams....it's not even funny.......Without his talent...the Bengals would be terrible......good qb....makes his team better.
Cutler.....in his first full year he(/his team)led his team to a 7-9 record.His team couldn't compensate for his mistakes, and inexperience at the nfl level.Sure Cutler showed signs at times but showed his inexperience as well....not a good qb....doesn't make his team better.
Not all Jays fault....I don't expect him to be a great...or even good nfl qb for 3 or 4 years......When you have an inexperienced qb....you better have a good defense....and good talented players on offense as well.....
Instead we had a new defensive coach/scheme.....and a running back that let us all down....a receiver who had no desire to be in Denver....and a new inexperienced qb leading his team(that's what a qb does).....that spells disaster.
As I have stated before...if Cutler and the broncos struggle this upcoming season....and I hope he doesn't
Shanahan will be gone.....throw in a new coaching staff.....and Cutler will be even more confused.
broncophan
03-29-2008, 07:24 AM
You and a couple others keep saying this, that he has to learn how to play
at the pro level. In the 16 games Cutler played last year, he passed for
3,497 yards for a 7.5 YPC. That included 20 TDs and 14 INTs for a 63.6%
completion ratio and a QB rating of 88.1.
Oh yes, he also rushed for 205 yards and a 4.7 average.
At what point does this indicate he doesn't know how to play at that level? :confused:
Regarding your insistence on sticking on one extremely variable factor such
as a W-L record in evaluating a quarterback, or any player, I would not
want you on my research team. One just doesn't rely on such a dependent
variable in arriving at a hypothesis.
If we are considering a tennis player or golfer, then a W-L record is a far
more independent variable. It can largely stand on its own over a period of
time. The outcome of a football game, however, is determined by 90
players, 45 on each side, and a couple dozen coaches. Yes, the quarterback
handles the football on virtually every offensive play. But he gives it to
someone else on virtually every play. It is then up the the RB or receiver to
make something of it. That, of course, depends on what kind of blocking
they get to help them do just that. Eleven people are involved in any one
play, going against eleven other people for the opponent.
And then, how many times (plays) they get to do this fully depends on how
adept the defense is at getting the offense back onto the field.
All this determines the final score in a game. Two major factors come into
consideration here: (1) how often the offense scores, and (2) how well the
defense prevents the other side from scoring.
As I just implied, the defense's role is dual: (1) prevent the other side from
scoring and (2) getting the ball back for the offense so it can score.
Last year, the defense for the Denver Broncos stank on both counts. In
rushing defense, they were 30th in yards allowed, 31st in YPA, and 29th
in rushing attempts by the opponent . . . that latter which vividly shows
their general failure in getting the ball back for the offense.
I would really like to see some documentation from those who claim Cutler
has to learn how to play football. I would also like to see an elaboration
from those who insist that the W-L record is the major factor in evaluating
a quarterback. You've now seen mine; let me see yours. :coffee:
P.S. In Elway's 16 years, his team lost 88 games during the regular season.
They were 8-8 during three of those, and two others were losing seasons.
At what point during those years could it be determined Elway did not know
how to play football at the professional level?
-----
Thanks for posting....
I don't look at individual stats when I evaluate qb's...a quarterback leads his TEAM ...whether it is his first year or 15th year.....heck....until Elways(and his teams) last superbowl Elways superbowl rating was something like 53....that's horrible...even in the sb win against GB, Elway didn't reach 100 yards passing until the 4th quarter....just because Elways stats were horrible in those games.....that doesn't mean he/his team was horrible.
No....I don't rely on stats when I decide if a QB is good or not.
Elways stats were really not that good throughout his career....but he and his team won alot of games....Elway made his teams better....he had the "intangable"(sp) knack of finding ways to win games.
A good qb makes his team better.....hopefully Cutler will learn that.
Sure our defense was terrible.....our opponents knew that....and our opponents knew they could lay back on defense....and not give up the big play....and they sure knew Cutler wasn't going to beat them.
88 losses in 16 seasons for Elway???....I only hope we can say that about Cutler after 16 seasons.....I know I could live with 5 or 6 losses, on average, each season.....with hopefully a Superbowl run or 2 mixed in there somewhere.
And yes Elway had to learn how to be an nfl qb....his first 2 or 3 years...he got beat around, was lining up under the guard instead of center,....he was a mess.
Hang on....as Cutler learns.....I fear it will get uglier before it gets better.
I hope for the best....As a bronco fan for 31 years now.....I hate to see them struggle.....but I also know a new qb requires alot of learning and patience.
GO BRONCOS!!!
broncophan
03-29-2008, 07:38 AM
There are a lot of young QB's in this league right now that are in the same situation as Cutler if not worse. With Farve retiring Cutler moves up at least one slot. What 10 QB's in the league right now do you think are heads and shoulders better than Cutler, since you say Cutler a top 10 QB.... not even close
So there we have it.....if everyone retires....Jay will be number one.:D
Without listing names....and the status of THIS bronco team....I would rather have an experienced,veteran qb on this team.....but I want to win NOW....not struggle for 3 or 4 years.
As I stated before....with a new, inexperienced qb....you better have all other aspects of your team in place....the broncos didn't do that.....and I don't see anything that they have done to do that for this upcoming season..............or wait......unless you consider letting Elam get away...:shocked:
So there we have it.....if everyone retires....Jay will be number one.:D
Without listing names....and the status of THIS bronco team....I would rather have an experienced,veteran qb on this team.....but I want to win NOW....not struggle for 3 or 4 years.
One of the big problems with this "is Jay a top 10 QB" is are we talking about a top 10 QB prospect? One of the top 10 QB's you would want on your team for the next 10 years.
Or, are we talking about basing the ranking on what players have already done or have PROVEN they are likely to do in '08.
We all know Jay has loads of potential and 'could' turn into one of the best QB's in the league, but we also know that based on how he has ACTUALLY played, that he is not currently a top 10 QB.
To get a better idea of what I am talking about, I added up the total rankings of the 17 considered to be the top QB's from last year.
The stats I added up are, Comp Pct, Yds, Avg gain, Yds/G, TD, Int, 20+, 40+, & QB Rating.
17. Marc Bulger = 215
Beings Favre retired, going into this year Cutler would be 10th..
Please keep in mind, the bottom 4 here probably would have been ranked even worse if I would have added up all 33 eligible QB's from last year. I believe Bulger, Young & Manning would have been in the bottom 10.
Again, a problem with looking at only one years stats is Bulger. Prior to an injury riddled 2007, Bulger had three outstanding years. While we all know fantasy isn't 'real' football (saving you guys the trouble of saying it), many draft guides had Bulger listed as one of the top 2 to 4 QBs going into '07. The draft notes would have comments to the effect that while he played on a lousy team that offered him no protection, if he stays healthy, he produces big numbers (the if he stays healthy related to no protection, etc.).
fcspikeit
03-29-2008, 12:18 PM
One of the big problems with this "is Jay a top 10 QB" is are we talking about a top 10 QB prospect? One of the top 10 QB's you would want on your team for the next 10 years.
Or, are we talking about basing the ranking on what players have already done or have PROVEN they are likely to do in '08.
We all know Jay has loads of potential and 'could' turn into one of the best QB's in the league, but we also know that based on how he has ACTUALLY played, that he is not currently a top 10 QB.
Again, a problem with looking at only one years stats is Bulger. Prior to an injury riddled 2007, Bulger had three outstanding years. While we all know fantasy isn't 'real' football (saving you guys the trouble of saying it), many draft guides had Bulger listed as one of the top 2 to 4 QBs going into '07. The draft notes would have comments to the effect that while he played on a lousy team that offered him no protection, if he stays healthy, he produces big numbers (the if he stays healthy related to no protection, etc.).
Your right here, As I said before, The whole list is about the potential of ever NFL QB this year.. Of course you will look at past records and stats to make your list. But to me, the question is not just about who you believe will put up the best #'s this year.
It is as simple as if you were picking QB's to lead your team "this" year, where would Cutler be picked? After watching him play do you believe he will be better this year then the last couple? I believe if people done this, Cutler would be picked 5 - 10
After what you said about Bulger, I think we are saying the same thing. Regardless of stats, you would make your list off the potential you see in each QB this year. If it were based off of last years stats alone, there would be 20+ guys picked ahead of Bulger.
Bulger would be near or in my top 10. Based on what I believe his abilities are and what I believe he can do this year to help a team.
That's why, only looking at stats or W-L record just don't work. I believe if we drop the W-L argument, Cutler would be seen as a top 10 QB going into this year, the stats support this as well.
fcspikeit
03-29-2008, 12:44 PM
Without looking....I would guess Marino/his teams have won a heckuva lot more games than Cutler/his team have .:D....although I never cared for Marino....great qb....but was concerned too much about his personal stats imo.....still Marino made his teams better.
Grossman played for a great Bears team......his team compensated for alot of his mistakes....mistake prone qb.....does not make his teams better.
Palmer......he is or has been surrounded with so many problem players on his teams....it's not even funny.......Without his talent...the Bengals would be terrible......good qb....makes his team better.
Your talking in curcles, first you say it's all about wins and losses, then you say Grossman does not make his team better, yet Grossman's record as a starter is better then Palmer's, I believe it is even better then Marino's... So which is it? If you believe it's all about wins and losses you should also believe Grossman is the better QB. His W-L record proves this right?
You are biased! Every Excuse you make for Palmer can be made for Cutler..
Our defense was worse then theirs!
Cincy had as much or more talent then we did on offense!
We had as many or more off field issues last year as they did!
Their W-L record was worse then ours!
You need to start calling a spade a spade, otherwise it's pretty clear your opinion is biased and holds no more credibility then that..
So there we have it.....if everyone retires....Jay will be number one.:D
Without listing names....and the status of THIS bronco team....I would rather have an experienced,veteran qb on this team.....but I want to win NOW....not struggle for 3 or 4 years.
Now I know why your so biased, I could have guessed by the fact your trying to use W-L record alone to determine who is the better QB.. That's what happens when the guy you like don't have anything else to defend him with...
cutler is a good QB! He makes this team better, Only Brady or Manning could have made us a better team last year, even that is debatable. Of course that is my opinion.
broncophan
03-29-2008, 01:17 PM
Your talking in curcles, first you say it's all about wins and losses, then you say Grossman does not make his team better, yet Grossman's record as a starter is better then Palmer's, I believe it is even better then Marino's... So which is it? If you believe it's all about wins and losses you should also believe Grossman is the better QB. His W-L record proves this right?
You are biased! Every Excuse you make for Palmer can be made for Cutler..
Our defense was worse then theirs!
Cincy had as much or more talent then we did on offense!
We had as many or more off field issues last year as they did!
Their W-L record was worse then ours!
You need to start calling a spade a spade, otherwise it's pretty clear your opinion is biased and holds no more credibility the that..
Now I know why your so biased, I could have guessed by the fact your trying to use W-L record alone to determine who is the better QB.. That's what happens when the guy you like don't have anything else to defend him with...
cutler is a good QB! He makes this team better, Only Brady or Manning could have made us a better team last year, even that is debatable. Of course that is my opinion.
Not biased at all.......It takes a "special" team to win if your qb makes mistake after mistake....as Grossman does....or did. I don't credit Grossman with the bears success.The bears won despite who their qb was.
I'm not making excuses for Palmer....and yea...the broncos had their share of problems....not nearly as many thugs the bengals have had.
Look ,I'm not trying to "defend" anyone here.....I just know we have a young qb who needs experience.....and needs to be surrounded with good talented players........................................... .................................................. .and how anybody thinks he is a top 10 qb in this league when he and his teams have a grand total of 9 wins and 11 losses in his short career...I'll never understand.
Hell......maybe he and his team will go 12-4 next year...and go on to win the superbowl....and he will throw fo 5000 yards and 40 td's.....not likely...and based on his and his team's performance last season...i doubt it....but then he would be a top qb in the league.
Or maybe he and his team will go 7-9 again or worse and he will have the numbers he had this past season.....then he will be just another qb.....that is what he is now....whether anyone realizes it or not.......just another qb.
As he learns how to be an nfl qb....things will hopefully get better...........patience in the meantime....we may have a long wait.
fcspikeit
03-29-2008, 01:51 PM
Not biased at all.......It takes a "special" team to win if your qb makes mistake after mistake....as Grossman does....or did. I don't credit Grossman with the bears success.The bears won despite who their qb was.
I'm not making excuses for Palmer....and yea...the broncos had their share of problems....not nearly as many thugs the Bengals have had.
Look ,I'm not trying to "defend" anyone here.....I just know we have a young qb who needs experience.....and needs to be surrounded with good talented players........................................... .................................................. .and how anybody thinks he is a top 10 qb in this league when he and his teams have a grand total of 9 wins and 11 losses in his short career...I'll never understand.
Hell......maybe he and his team will go 12-4 next year...and go on to win the superbowl....and he will throw fo 5000 yards and 40 td's.....not likely...and based on his and his team's performance last season...i doubt it....but then he would be a top qb in the league.
Or maybe he and his team will go 7-9 again or worse and he will have the numbers he had this past season.....then he will be just another qb.....that is what he is now....whether anyone realizes it or not.......just another qb.
As he learns how to be an nfl qb....things will hopefully get better...........patience in the meantime....we may have a long wait.
There you go again, trying to support your claim Cutler is not a good QB by wins and losses.. Your right, he and "his team" lost 9 games last year.
The Broncos can finish 4-12 next year and Cutler still be a top 10 QB. We need to improve on a lot of things to have a winning record. Our QB play is way down the list! The Giants won the Superbowl with Eli manning, who was worse last year then Cutler. Cutler is not the main reason we finished 7-9 last year. He was one of the few bright spots on our team.
Here's why this is so dumb, if Cutler put up the same #'s last year and we weren't ranked bottom 5 in almost every defensive category, we would have won 3 or 4 more games. Then you would be saying he is a top 10 QB. Even though he played the exact same way. When picking the best QB's you should look at the QB's play alone. They should not be held in lower degree because the defense sucked. When you do this guys like Cutler and Palmer get rated unfairly.
We had more arrests last year then the Bengals did.
There you go again, trying to support your claim Cutler is not a good QB by wins and losses.. Your right, he and "his team" lost 9 games last year.
The Broncos can finish 4-12 next year and Cutler still be a top 10 QB. We need to improve on a lot of things to have a winning record. Our QB play is way down the list! The Giants won the Superbowl with Eli manning, who was worse last year then Cutler. Cutler is not the main reason we finished 7-9 last year. He was one of the few bright spots on our team.
Here's why this is so dumb, if Cutler put up the same #'s last year and we weren't ranked bottom 5 in almost every defensive category, we would have won 3 or 4 more games. Then you would be saying he is a top 10 QB. Even though he played the exact same way. When picking the best QB's you should look at the QB's play alone. They should not be held in lower degree because the defense sucked. When you do this guys like Cutler and Palmer get rated unfairly.
We had more arrests last year then the Bengals did.
While the defense did suck last year, it was also one of the most dismal offensive years the Broncos have had. Twice only scoring three points. Seven times 15 points or less. There is a lot of blame to go around for the offensive failures (injuries, horrible play calling/game plans), but Cutler also shares a lot of that responsibility. It doesn't mean he won't get better, I believe he will, but he was part of the failure. He threw a bunch of picks, made a lot of bad decisions.
Here is another stat, once again with Cutler in that 12-14th posiiton (statistically). He threw a pick every 21.2 attempts, which was 14th in the league. Meaning, 13 QBs were more efficieant in terms of more attempts between picks.
fcspikeit
03-29-2008, 03:51 PM
Here is another stat, once again with Cutler in that 12-14th posiiton (statistically). He threw a pick every 21.2 attempts, which was 14th in the league. Meaning, 13 QBs were more efficieant in terms of more attempts between picks.
So then Tned, is it safe to say none of the guys who finished behind Cutler in that stat are top 10 QB's? If that's not what your saying what's your point?
While the defense did suck last year, it was also one of the most dismal offensive years the Broncos have had. Twice only scoring three points. Seven times 15 points or less. There is a lot of blame to go around for the offensive failures (injuries, horrible play calling/game plans), but Cutler also shares a lot of that responsibility. It doesn't mean he won't get better, I believe he will, but he was part of the failure. He threw a bunch of picks, made a lot of bad decisions.
No one is saying Cutler is the greatest in the NFL. Manning threw 6 picks in a game last year. Cutler didn't do that, so is it safe to say Cutlers worst game is leaps and bounds better then Manning worst game?
Sure Cutler made some mistakes. All the other top 10 QB did.. None of that changes the fact Cutler is a top 10 Quarterback.
So then Tned, is it safe to say none of the guys who finished behind Cutler in that stat are top 10 QB's? If that's not what your saying what's your point?
No one is saying Cutler is the greatest in the NFL. Manning threw 6 picks in a game last year. Cutler didn't do that, so is it safe to say Cutlers worst game is leaps and bounds better then Manning worst game?
Sure Cutler made some mistakes. All the other top 10 QB did.. None of that changes the fact Cutler is a top 10 Quarterback.
My point is two fold.
First, people can't have it both ways. Point to Cutler's 'good' stats to attempt to reinforce that he is a top 10 QB, but when it is shown that his stats while being good compared to 'historical' benchmarks were not overly impressive for 2008, they say 'but other QBs that would be considered good QBs had worse stats".
Second, most of the people saying he is a top 10, or even top 5, QB RIGHT now, not based on future potential, can't really give any reason for it, other than he is Jay Cutler and 'our' QB.
As I have said multiple times, I think he is going to be one of the best. I don't think there are many young QBs that are in the league right now that I would pick over Cutler to be our QB for the next 10+ years. However, no matter how great I think Cutler will be, I can't honestly sit here and say that based on what we hvae seen to date that he is one of the best QBs in the league right now.
Let's look at it this way. Let's say that Tom Brady was a free agent this year, and the NE Patriots were without a QB. To make things more interesting, EVERY QB in the NFL was a free agent right now. The NE patriots are sitting with all the pieces to march through the AFC straight to the SB in the '08 season. You have as much money as you want to spend on a ONE year contract for a player, but you will only keep him one year, because this is about winning in '08.
How do you rank the QBs in the league to give you the best chance of dominating the '08 season and winning it all behind center for the NE Patriots?
Lonestar
03-29-2008, 04:59 PM
While the defense did suck last year, it was also one of the most dismal offensive years the Broncos have had. Twice only scoring three points. Seven times 15 points or less. There is a lot of blame to go around for the offensive failures (injuries, horrible play calling/game plans), but Cutler also shares a lot of that responsibility. It doesn't mean he won't get better, I believe he will, but he was part of the failure. He threw a bunch of picks, made a lot of bad decisions.
I think you have to add to the poor play of the OLINE for all of the reasons injuries, Lepsis not being himself. Almost NO connectivity between them.
Plus al of the drama with Thenry, no other RB to step up and fully take his spot. Jwalk being a no show and Rod not being there.. coupled with the TE position having to cover the OT's asses..
While I thought I would never be able to defend a DEN QB again. There where plenty of reasons for Jay and the Offense having a poo year.
I think if you add in whatever drama that was going on between Dinger, mikey and Jay we hope never to have another Offensive year like that again..
jay and Marshall were the only Bright spots last year.. and most of that was because Marshall stepped up he saved Jays and the teams but last year..
topscribe
03-29-2008, 08:04 PM
I think you have to add to the poor play of the OLINE for all of the reasons injuries, Lepsis not being himself. Almost NO connectivity between them.
Plus al of the drama with Thenry, no other RB to step up and fully take his spot. Jwalk being a no show and Rod not being there.. coupled with the TE position having to cover the OT's asses..
While I thought I would never be able to defend a DEN QB again. There where plenty of reasons for Jay and the Offense having a poo year.
I think if you add in whatever drama that was going on between Dinger, mikey and Jay we hope never to have another Offensive year like that again..
jay and Marshall were the only Bright spots last year.. and most of that was because Marshall stepped up he saved Jays and the teams but last year..
Well, Jay and Bmarsh, as well as Scheffler, Stokley, and Young . . . and I
believe Kuper did a good job for starting his first year on a strange line.
-----
broncophan
03-29-2008, 08:09 PM
There you go again, trying to support your claim Cutler is not a good QB by wins and losses.. Your right, he and "his team" lost 9 games last year.
The Broncos can finish 4-12 next year and Cutler still be a top 10 QB. We need to improve on a lot of things to have a winning record. Our QB play is way down the list! The Giants won the Superbowl with Eli manning, who was worse last year then Cutler. Cutler is not the main reason we finished 7-9 last year. He was one of the few bright spots on our team.
Here's why this is so dumb, if Cutler put up the same #'s last year and we weren't ranked bottom 5 in almost every defensive category, we would have won 3 or 4 more games. Then you would be saying he is a top 10 QB. Even though he played the exact same way. When picking the best QB's you should look at the QB's play alone. They should not be held in lower degree because the defense sucked. When you do this guys like Cutler and Palmer get rated unfairly.
We had more arrests last year then the Bengals did.
Let's not make you the quarterback coach if you think Cutler is "way down the list" of areas that need improvement.
And if you want to base your qb ratings on Cutler's stats....go ahead.....not me......I'll base it on wins and losses.I never cared about Elways stats......or Plummers stats.....or Griese's stats....or Brister......or for that matter....any other qb. The previous 10 or so years the Broncos sure won alot of games....amazing what experience does for a team.
I just hope Cutler learns how to be a leader...and a winner ...in time. I wasn't disappointed in the teams record this year.....with a new qb.....I didn't expect a winning season.
Hell.....I hope Cutlers stats are worse next year....and the broncos win 10 games....as long as he holds onto the ball....and doesn't throw alot of picks...10 wins for a second year qb would be huge.........not likely with this team though....way too many issues...and a qb learning how to be an nfl player is just part of the problem.
By the way.......you may be right on when you say the broncos "can finish 4-12 next season.I certainly don't see where they have bettered themselves heading into next season.
fcspikeit
03-29-2008, 08:38 PM
And if you want to base your qb ratings on Cutler's stats....go ahead.....not me......I'll base it on wins and losses.I never cared about Elways stats......or Plummers stats.....or Griese's stats....or Brister......or for that matter....any other qb. The previous 10 or so years the Broncos sure won alot of games....amazing what experience does for a team.
Then You must also conclude, Rex Grossman is better then Carson Palmer because he has a better winning %. Or are you going to try and use the Palmer had a worse team argument and disagree with your own logic? :rolleyes:
fcspikeit
03-29-2008, 08:43 PM
My point is two fold.
First, people can't have it both ways. Point to Cutler's 'good' stats to attempt to reinforce that he is a top 10 QB, but when it is shown that his stats while being good compared to 'historical' benchmarks were not overly impressive for 2008, they say 'but other QBs that would be considered good QBs had worse stats".
Second, most of the people saying he is a top 10, or even top 5, QB RIGHT now, not based on future potential, can't really give any reason for it, other than he is Jay Cutler and 'our' QB.
As I have said multiple times, I think he is going to be one of the best. I don't think there are many young QBs that are in the league right now that I would pick over Cutler to be our QB for the next 10+ years. However, no matter how great I think Cutler will be, I can't honestly sit here and say that based on what we hvae seen to date that he is one of the best QBs in the league right now.
Let's look at it this way. Let's say that Tom Brady was a free agent this year, and the NE Patriots were without a QB. To make things more interesting, EVERY QB in the NFL was a free agent right now. The NE patriots are sitting with all the pieces to march through the AFC straight to the SB in the '08 season. You have as much money as you want to spend on a ONE year contract for a player, but you will only keep him one year, because this is about winning in '08.
How do you rank the QBs in the league to give you the best chance of dominating the '08 season and winning it all behind center for the NE Patriots?
I said before, If we are basing the rating on the potential for this year and not just off past years and W-L record. I believe Cutler would be in the top 10. I see no reason to think he will not improve this year and even if he plays as he did last year, he would have to be at least considered for one of the top 10 spots.
I think you have to add to the poor play of the OLINE for all of the reasons injuries, Lepsis not being himself. Almost NO connectivity between them.
.
Don't forget the bonehead play calling and offensive scheme that Heimerdinger tried to implement. He tried to run an offense that wasn't suited to our small linemen, which was made even more of a blunder with the oline injuries.
I said before, If we are basing the rating on the potential for this year and not just off past years and W-L record. I believe Cutler would be in the top 10. I see no reason to think he will not improve this year and even if he plays as he did last year, he would have to be at least considered for one of the top 10 spots.
I also agree that Cutler has and will keep improving, and I expect him to play much better this year, than last.
However, I am not sure in my NE Patriot scenario, where based on what we have seen and are likely to see in '08 (forgetting 'hopes' of improvement or living up to potential), that I could list him in the top 10 QBs that would be most likely to lead the Patriots to an SB win in '08.
topscribe
03-29-2008, 11:16 PM
Don't forget the bonehead play calling and offensive scheme that Heimerdinger tried to implement. He tried to run an offense that wasn't suited to our small linemen, which was made even more of a blunder with the oline injuries.
I also agree that Cutler has and will keep improving, and I expect him to play much better this year, than last.
However, I am not sure in my NE Patriot scenario, where based on what we have seen and are likely to see in '08 (forgetting 'hopes' of improvement or living up to potential), that I could list him in the top 10 QBs that would be most likely to lead the Patriots to an SB win in '08.
With the disarray of the O-line last year, plus the bonehead play-calling, to
which you referred, I have to think that, yes, the Pats would have gone to
the Super Bowl with Jay at the helm. With the numbers he attained here,
how much better would those numbers have been, had he not only Moss
and Welker (whom Marshall and Stokley did effectively neutralize) but also
Stallworth and Watson (for whom the Broncos had no answer), in addition
to the Pats's O-line? AND the Pats' defense?
Let's face it: Brady might be considered the best QB in the league, but he
also plays on the best team in the league (at least before their off-
season defections and another year on their LBs). So again, how would
Cutler have done with the best team in the league? Well, how did he do
with one with a motley O-line and a weak defense?
No, I have to put him in the Top 10, and come to think of it, my #8 might
be a bit conservative, after all.
-----
fcspikeit
03-29-2008, 11:30 PM
Don't forget the bonehead play calling and offensive scheme that Heimerdinger tried to implement. He tried to run an offense that wasn't suited to our small linemen, which was made even more of a blunder with the oline injuries.
I also agree that Cutler has and will keep improving, and I expect him to play much better this year, than last.
However, I am not sure in my NE Patriot scenario, where based on what we have seen and are likely to see in '08 (forgetting 'hopes' of improvement or living up to potential), that I could list him in the top 10 QBs that would be most likely to lead the Patriots to an SB win in '08.
That would also rule out, Jeff Garcia, Derek Anderson, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Vince Young, & Marc Bulger All of those guys would have to also improve on their play from last year..
Please, excluding these guys, tell me who you think is the top 10?
That would also rule out, Jeff Garcia, Derek Anderson, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Vince Young, & Marc Bulger All of those guys would have to also improve on their play from last year..
Please, excluding these guys, tell me who you think is the top 10?
Well, I have never said last year's play excludes anyone, just that anyone that uses Cutler's stats from last year has to not look at them in isolation, but in comparison to all the other QBs with inflated stats. You can't say he was better than most of Marino's years, without pointing out that around 20 QBs had better completion percentages and other key stats than Marino and Aikman did in most years of their career.
Hence the reason I am referring to this being a 'juiced ball' era in terms of QB stats.
So, Bulger had three great years playing on a so/so team. Last year he was hurt and numbers were down, so he would definately be in my top 10. I have been more focused on trying to bring 'reason' into the "Cutler is one of the best QBs in the league right now" arguments, but I will take a shot at a top 10 for my NE Patriots need a QB for '08 ONLY scenario.
In no particular order, but QBs that proved they can get the job down, rather than living on 'potential'
Ok, this group of 8 have definately 'proven' that they are capable of playing at a 'top 10' level and would lead the list of free agents to lead the NE Patriots in '08 to the SB.
Brady
Manning (P.)
Big Ben
McNabb
Hasselback
Brees
Palmer
Bulger
After that, it get's muddy. This next group have a mixed record, but have shown enough to be the next tier if you are looking for a winner or to round out the top 10 in '08, versus have a franchise QB for the next decade plus.
Jake Delhomme (assuming he is recovered)
Romo (I'm not completely sold, but consecutive years with ratings of 95+)
Then things really get muddy and when you are looking at the 11th best QB to lead the quarterback-less NE Patriots in '08, a case could be made for any of this group.
Manning (E.)
Cutler
Rivers (although he has more experience than Cutler, I put them about par in current play, with Cutler having more potential)
Garrard (One good year does not a QB make, but...)
Garcia
Warner (possibly. I wouldn't want him for five years, but one healthy year)
Vince Young
I'm as much of a homer as the next person on this message board, so this next statement is probably biased by that. If I wasn't looking at the best QB to lead a team in '08, but instead were looking at the QB for the next 5+ years, then after Manning and Brady, Cutler would be right up there. I think he is playing solid now, and has huge upside. If I was really making that call, would he truely be my third choice for the next 5+ years? I don't know, maybe he would slip a little and there are a couple other QBs that would bump him, but he would be in the running after the top 2, but for '08, there are proven QBs that push him much further down.
DenverBronkHoes
03-30-2008, 01:52 AM
best young QB in football and definately a top 10 QB in this league...
broncophan
03-30-2008, 06:08 AM
Then You must also conclude, Rex Grossman is better then Carson Palmer because he has a better winning %. Or are you going to try and use the Palmer had a worse team argument and disagree with your own logic? :rolleyes:.....
As stated before.....the Bears won INSPITE of Grossman........very seldom, does that happen where a team can compensate for a weak qb who makes bonehead mistakes.......not going against my own logic......that just happens......rarely.....but it still happens.
The broncos sure aren't in a position to cover for a young qb like Cutler.....as he learns how to be an nfl qb. And Cutler,most certainly,isn't a good enough qb.....nor is it fair to expect him to, carry his team for a playoff run................................He has way too much to learn to be considered a top 10 qb....
This can....and prob. will be debated forever..........He can have the greatest stats of all time.........who cares??.....lets let the kid learn how to be a winner.....that hasn't happened....in at least the last 6 years......since his high school days.
Then You must also conclude, Rex Grossman is better then Carson Palmer because he has a better winning %. Or are you going to try and use the Palmer had a worse team argument and disagree with your own logic? :rolleyes:
LOL, it always comes back to this. :D
I agree with fcspikeit, topscribe, slim, and everyone who says wins and losses are not the best way to evaluate how a quarterback performs. Cutler has put up some top ten stats with an offense that likes to run first, similar to the way Big Ben's offense is in Pittsburgh.
Now let's see the rankings against the run of some highly rated QBs and their team's wins .....
Peyton - Colts - 15th agains the run (plus an excellent OL)
Brady - Pats - 10th against the run (plus a great OL)
Roethlisburger - Steelers - 3rd against the run
Palmer - Bengals - 21st against the run (and he has a pretty good OL, which he needs since he's lost some mobility because of his injury) ... oh, but they did have a losing season (7-9), so maybe he isn't a top 10 QB
Romo - Cowboys - 6th against the run (plus a real good OL)
Favre - Packers - 14th against the run
Hasselbeck - Seahawks - 12th against the run
McNabb - Eagles - 7th against the run
Warner - Cardinals - 9th against the run
Brees - Saints - 13th against the run ... oops, 7-9 record, he isn't a top 10 QB
Eli - Giants - 8th against the run
Bulger - Rams - 20th against the run ... oops, 3-13 record ... bah, he was injured anyway, he still belongs in the top 10, right?
Anderson - Browns - 27th against the run ............................ finally, a team with a winning record (10-6), despite having a crappy run defense ... but they did have a great OL anchored by probowl rookie Thomas.
So except for the Browns, teams with top 10 quarterbacks are able to make their team's run defense much better, except for Palmer and Brees, who despite putting up good numbers couldn't make their teams have better run defenses and winning records.
Yeah, if Brady played for Denver, our run defense would've been top 10 easy. Heck, if Big Ben played for us, our run defense would be #3 in the league, and we'd be 10-6. Yup, sounds about right.
Denver, 30th against the run, with a makeshift OL, because of injuries to key players.
Of the bottom 10 run defenses in the league, only 1 team, the Browns, have had a winning season. Anderson played excellent, but he had excellent protection with probowler Thomas, excellent rushing from Lewis, and excellent catching from Edwards.
Now, people expect Cutler to get more wins from an injury ridden OL and RB crew, and one of the worst defenses in the NFL in order to be a top 10 QB, despite being in the top 10 or 12 in different QB stats? :D
broncophan
03-30-2008, 10:37 AM
LOL, it always comes back to this. :D
I agree with fcspikeit, topscribe, slim, and everyone who says wins and losses are not the best way to evaluate how a quarterback performs. Cutler has put up some top ten stats with an offense that likes to run first, similar to the way Big Ben's offense is in Pittsburgh.
Now let's see the rankings against the run of some highly rated QBs and their team's wins .....
Peyton - Colts - 15th agains the run (plus an excellent OL)
Brady - Pats - 10th against the run (plus a great OL)
Roethlisburger - Steelers - 3rd against the run
Palmer - Bengals - 21st against the run (and he has a pretty good OL, which he needs since he's lost some mobility because of his injury) ... oh, but they did have a losing season (7-9), so maybe he isn't a top 10 QB
Romo - Cowboys - 6th against the run (plus a real good OL)
Favre - Packers - 14th against the run
Hasselbeck - Seahawks - 12th against the run
McNabb - Eagles - 7th against the run
Warner - Cardinals - 9th against the run
Brees - Saints - 13th against the run ... oops, 7-9 record, he isn't a top 10 QB
Eli - Giants - 8th against the run
Bulger - Rams - 20th against the run ... oops, 3-13 record ... bah, he was injured anyway, he still belongs in the top 10, right?
Anderson - Browns - 27th against the run ............................ finally, a team with a winning record (10-6), despite having a crappy run defense ... but they did have a great OL anchored by probowl rookie Thomas.
So except for the Browns, teams with top 10 quarterbacks are able to make their team's run defense much better, except for Palmer and Brees, who despite putting up good numbers couldn't make their teams have better run defenses and winning records.
Yeah, if Brady played for Denver, our run defense would've been top 10 easy. Heck, if Big Ben played for us, our run defense would be #3 in the league, and we'd be 10-6. Yup, sounds about right.
Denver, 30th against the run, with a makeshift OL, because of injuries to key players.
Of the bottom 10 run defenses in the league, only 1 team, the Browns, have had a winning season. Anderson played excellent, but he had excellent protection with probowler Thomas, excellent rushing from Lewis, and excellent catching from Edwards.
Now, people expect Cutler to get more wins from an injury ridden OL and RB crew, and one of the worst defenses in the NFL in order to be a top 10 QB, despite being in the top 10 or 12 in different QB stats? :D
LOl....I EXPECT.....about 6 to 8 wins from the kid until he learns how to be a winning nfl qb......and I certainly don't expect Cutler to help our pathetic defense......other than not giving up field position on offense.
Anyone who expects more wins from the young qb.....and his team....doesn't understand the nfl.
A Ben Roethlisberger doesn't come around all too often.
Stats don't tell the whole story. As Cutler learns what the hell he is doing,he can have the best stats in the league....I don't care.....I want him to learn how to lead.....that's what the qb does....then the winning will come....whether he is 1st or 20th in yours or anyone else's stats.
Injuries?????.....most fans know ....that's part of the game.....always will be.....sure..........it's unfortunate to have a young kid like Cutler to have to learn with a beat up team.....but no excuses..........he was put into the situation by his coaches.......hopefully it wil help him in the long run.......this is Big Time now.....not Vandy
fcspikeit
03-30-2008, 11:19 AM
LOl....I EXPECT.....about 6 to 8 wins from the kid until he learns how to be a winning nfl qb......and I certainly don't expect Cutler to help our pathetic defense......other than not giving up field position on offense.
Anyone who expects more wins from the young qb.....and his team....doesn't understand the nfl.
A Ben Roethlisberger doesn't come around all too often.
Stats don't tell the whole story. As Cutler learns what the hell he is doing,he can have the best stats in the league....I don't care.....I want him to learn how to lead.....that's what the qb does....then the winning will come....whether he is 1st or 20th in yours or anyone else's stats.
Injuries?????.....most fans know ....that's part of the game.....always will be.....sure..........it's unfortunate to have a young kid like Cutler to have to learn with a beat up team.....but no excuses..........he was put into the situation by his coaches.......hopefully it wil help him in the long run.......this is Big Time now.....not Vandy
7-9 is also a stat! Your right, "Stats don't tell the whole story" ;)
topscribe
03-30-2008, 11:50 AM
.....
the Bears won INSPITE of Grossman
BINGO!! :nod:
Therefore, if a team can win despite a QB, then a team can lose despite a QB.
As I stated before, placing his team's W-L record in such high regard in
evaluating a player is a grievous research error. A researcher quickly learns to
discard factors that can skew the results because those factors are influenced
by other independent factors.
I know that is pretty technical, but the bottom line is that if a player is one
of 22 on the field at one time, then the evaluation of his performance must
be independent of the performances of the others. Hence, the W-L record
is rendered moot.
As I stated before, had Cutler played for the Chargers or the Patriots, he
would have had a winning record, just the same as if Elway would have
played for the NY Giants in 1986, the Washington Redskins in 1987, or the
San Francisco 49ers in 1989, he would have won the Super Bowl in any of
those years. Moreover, in 1990, when Elway and his Broncos went 5-11, if
he would have played for the NY Giants, he would have won the Super Bowl
that year, too.
I will repeat: A quarterback's . . . or any player's . . . performance cannot
be fairly judged by how his supporting cast plays. One must look at how he
played, independent of the others.
As has been implied previously in this thread, until Cutler can play RB for
himself, catch his own passes, and play DT and LB at the same time, I am
entirely going to dismiss this silly talk of his W-L record. :coffee:
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fcspikeit
03-30-2008, 01:48 PM
Well, I have never said last year's play excludes anyone, just that anyone that uses Cutler's stats from last year has to not look at them in isolation, but in comparison to all the other QBs with inflated stats. You can't say he was better than most of Marino's years, without pointing out that around 20 QBs had better completion percentages and other key stats than Marino and Aikman did in most years of their career.
Hence the reason I am referring to this being a 'juiced ball' era in terms of QB stats.
So, Bulger had three great years playing on a so/so team. Last year he was hurt and numbers were down, so he would definately be in my top 10. I have been more focused on trying to bring 'reason' into the "Cutler is one of the best QBs in the league right now" arguments, but I will take a shot at a top 10 for my NE Patriots need a QB for '08 ONLY scenario.
In no particular order, but QBs that proved they can get the job down, rather than living on 'potential'
Ok, this group of 8 have definately 'proven' that they are capable of playing at a 'top 10' level and would lead the list of free agents to lead the NE Patriots in '08 to the SB.
Brady
Manning (P.)
Big Ben
McNabb
Hasselback
Brees
Palmer
Bulger
After that, it get's muddy. This next group have a mixed record, but have shown enough to be the next tier if you are looking for a winner or to round out the top 10 in '08, versus have a franchise QB for the next decade plus.
Jake Delhomme (assuming he is recovered)
Romo (I'm not completely sold, but consecutive years with ratings of 95+)
Then things really get muddy and when you are looking at the 11th best QB to lead the quarterback-less NE Patriots in '08, a case could be made for any of this group.
Manning (E.)
Cutler
Rivers (although he has more experience than Cutler, I put them about par in current play, with Cutler having more potential)
Garrard (One good year does not a QB make, but...)
Garcia
Warner (possibly. I wouldn't want him for five years, but one healthy year)
Vince Young
I'm as much of a homer as the next person on this message board, so this next statement is probably biased by that. If I wasn't looking at the best QB to lead a team in '08, but instead were looking at the QB for the next 5+ years, then after Manning and Brady, Cutler would be right up there. I think he is playing solid now, and has huge upside. If I was really making that call, would he truely be my third choice for the next 5+ years? I don't know, maybe he would slip a little and there are a couple other QBs that would bump him, but he would be in the running after the top 2, but for '08, there are proven QBs that push him much further down.
You see even in your top 10 there are guys who are surrounded by "IF's". Many have proven they can have great games/years, yet those same guys have also proven they can have bad games/years. It doesn't matter how people come to the conclusion. Picking any QB for next year is based on potential.. Even if Cutler had 2 outstanding years under his belt, he could still have a down year like Bulger and Warner just to name a few..
I have little doubt Cutler would have had a lot better year last year if he were playing for the same teams as some of the other top QB's. The fact he put up comparable #'s with the team he had around him says a lot IMO. There is no way of knowing how the other top guys would have done playing on a worse team.. But we already know how Cutler did. There is no reason to believe he wouldn't have done better playing on a better team. Would he have done better then some of the top QB's? That really is the question.
You see even in your top 10 there are guys who are surrounded by "IF's". Many have proven they can have great games/years, yet those same guys have also proven they can have bad games/years. It doesn't matter how people come to the conclusion. Picking any QB for next year is based on potential.. Even if Cutler had 2 outstanding years under his belt, he could still have a down year like Bulger and Warner just to name a few..
I have little doubt Cutler would have had a lot better year last year if he were playing for the same teams as some of the other top QB's. The fact he put up comparable #'s with the team he had around him says a lot IMO. There is no way of knowing how the other top guys would have done playing on a worse team.. But we already know how Cutler did. There is no reason to believe he wouldn't have done better playing on a better team. Would he have done better then some of the top QB's? That really is the question.
The difference is that the "IFs" I listed have proven it on the field to date, they are not working 'only' on potential. That is a huge difference.
------
On a seperate not (not related to what I quoted above), those that talk about the defense being the main issue need to look at the offensive (offensive, as in disgusting), offensive production.
Two games only scoring 3 points. 7 or 8 games (can't remember now) scoring 15 points or less.
Bronco4life6
03-30-2008, 03:11 PM
Cutler is in my opinion is the 6th best QB and easily might be considered top 5 next year :)...definitely looking forward to that!
Lonestar
03-30-2008, 03:44 PM
But until the league and media does away with W-L QB's will forever be saddle as positive or negative with Wins and LOSES as part of their resume..
Scouts, Inc. (ESPN) ranking of top 64 QBs:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/news/story?id=3147842
Updated: January 29, 7:22 PM ET
In updated QB rankings, Eli rises, Quinn falls
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Scouts Inc.
At first, ranking the starting and backup QBs didn't seem daunting. After a two-hour conference call in which we debated the young guns versus the veterans, the backups versus some starters, and what in the world to do with the rookies who haven't played much yet, we learned it is a very difficult job. And now that the regular season is over, we revamped the list one more time.
The hardest part was deciding how to rank them. Do we look at just this year? Do we look at their careers and their body of work? We decided it would be a mixture of the two, that we couldn't completely ignore a veteran with a history of great success having a sub-par year. However, Brady Quinn's ranking plummeted from No. 37 to No. 58 because he barely saw the field. Plus, we couldn't ignore Eli Manning who jumped to No. 12 from No. 17 because of his amazing play late in the season.
About the only thing we agreed on was that Tom Brady was No. 1 and Peyton Manning was No. 2. From there, the first debate came, with some feeling that Tony Romo was right there with those two, but we eventually decided Romo was No. 4, behind Brady, Manning and Brett Favre.
The top 10 was very difficult after we got through the top five. In that second group of QBs, Carson Palmer, Drew Brees and Donovan McNabb have all had a ton of success but struggled at times during the '07 season due to different circumstances. The other QBs who were tough to place were the guys who had success as first-time starters. David Garrard and Derek Anderson both played very well, and we think they will continue to ascend. The rookies were tough to place, but we thought they should be ranked higher (based on upside) than some retread-type backups.
The one thing that was very noticeable from this list is that the future of the QB position looks bright with young players like Manning, Garrard, Anderson, Jay Cutler, Vince Young, Philip Rivers and Jason Campbell taking their games to the next level.
1. Tom Brady
Starter, New England Patriots
Brady is a future Hall of Fame QB who is having a career season. He lead the NFL in touchdowns and completion percentage and finished the '07 season with a league-best QB rating of 117.2. There is no longer a debate over who the best QB in the NFL is -- Brady has moved ahead of Manning.
2. Peyton Manning
Starter, Indianapolis Colts
Like Brady, Manning is a future Hall of Fame QB. There is not a QB in the NFL who studies the game as much as Manning, and he is one of the best competitors to play QB. Despite losing several key players to injury, Manning still completed 65.4 percent of his passes and threw 31 TDs.
3. Brett Favre
Starter, Green Bay Packers
He will be a first-ballot Hall of Famer. At 38, he is still playing at a high level, and it looks as if he may be able to play into his 40s. There is no denying his arm strength, and Favre is still able to make all the throws. Favre did a great job in '07 and made every player on the offense better.
4. Tony Romo
Starter, Dallas Cowboys
He is a young gunslinger who reminds a lot of people of a young Favre, and Romo shows no fear in the pocket. He is mentally tough and shows an excellent ability to bounce back when he makes mistakes. He is a big reason the Cowboys finished the regular season with the best record in the NFC.
5. Ben Roethlisberger
Starter, Pittsburgh Steelers
Roethlisberger is a young QB who struggled in 2006, but was healthy in 2007 and had a solid season. New offensive coordinator Bruce Arians has given him more responsibility, and Roethlisberger has responded with improved leadership. He's making better decisions and finished second in QB rating with 104.1, only behind Brady.
6. Carson Palmer
Starter, Cincinnati Bengals
This wasn't Palmer's best season, but he still has all the tools you'd want in a QB. Playing behind a decimated offensive line, Palmer threw 20 interceptions and struggled to lead his underachieving football team. Still, he is unquestionably one of the most talented QBs in the league.
7. Matt Hasselbeck
Starter, Seattle Seahawks
Coach Mike Holmgren put much more pressure on Hasselbeck in '07 and he responded by playing very well. He is a rhythm passer who can be a little streaky, but he is very good at running Holmgren's West Coast offense. He is an excellent leader, and it's no coincidence once Hasselbeck became the focus of the offense, the Seahawks clinched their fourth straight NFC West title.
8. Drew Brees
Starter, New Orleans Saints
After a great 2006 season, Brees struggled some in 2007 behind a shaky offensive line and a running game that was missing starting RB Deuce McAllister. Brees was forced to carry too much of the load, and though he is a very good QB, he is not the type of player who can carry a team without solid weapons around him.
9. Donovan McNabb
Starter, Philadelphia Eagles
When healthy, McNabb has shown he can still be an elite starting QB. The problem is he has rarely been healthy, and the last time he played a 16-game season was 2003. McNabb may be trade bait this offseason, but he still has some solid years left.
10. Marc Bulger
Injured starter, St. Louis Rams
Bulger struggled last season behind a shaky offensive line and missed time with a rib injury and a concussion. When healthy, he has played very well. He does not possess great size or arm strength but is an accurate QB and a great fit in coach Scott Linehan's offensive system.
11. David Garrard
Starter, Jacksonville Jaguars
There were a lot of questions concerning Garrard when the Jaguars released Byron Leftwich at the start of the season, but he has proven his ability as a quarterback in the NFL. He benefits from a strong running game, but his decision-making has been superb (he had just three interceptions in 325 attempts in 2007), he completed 64 percent of his passes and his QB rating was third, trailing only Brady and Roethlisberger.
12. Eli Manning
Starter, New York Giants
Manning is extremely talented but has struggled with consistency and decision-making throughout his short career. Still, he has shown a few flashes that make you believe he will be a frontline starting quarterback in the NFL in the right system. He has shown coolness under fire in the pocket but lacks that emotional drive that gets you excited.
13. Philip Rivers
Starter, San Diego Chargers
Rivers did not perform as well as he did in the 2006 regular season and still must become more consistent in his decision-making and downfield accuracy. However, he still has the ability to process information quickly while attacking the weakness on the back end in coverage. He is smart and instinctive, with good pocket awareness and the arm strength to spread the ball around.
14. Jay Cutler
Starter, Denver Broncos
Easily one of the most impressive young quarterbacks in the NFL. He is a natural fit in coach Mike Shanahan's West Coast offense. He is a smart, instinctive player with a gunslinger mentality. He has a big-time arm that Shanahan loves, and he plays with a calm demeanor in the pocket. He is a young player who is only going to get better the more he plays.
15. Derek Anderson
Starter, Cleveland Browns
Without a doubt, he made a name for himself and a lot of money in the future based on his performance in offensive coordinator Rob Chudzinski's system since he took over as the starter in the second game of the 2007 season. Anderson has one of the stronger arms in the NFL, which allows the Browns to attack all levels in the passing game. He is a prototypical pocket passer with average to above-average accuracy in the short and intermediate areas in the passing game.
16. Jeff Garcia
Starter, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Garcia is a perfect fit for coach Jon Gruden's version of the West Coast passing attack. He is highly competitive and can still move around in the pocket with good accuracy in short and intermediate areas. He doesn't have a big-time arm, but he does a great job when throwing in rhythm to spots on the field.
17. Vince Young
Starter, Tennessee Titans
Young is an intriguing young player who places a lot of pressure on opposing defenses with his outstanding athleticism, arm strength and ability to scramble and make plays with his legs. He didn't have much success in 2007 because former offensive coordinator Norm Chow's game plans didn't always take advantage of Young's strengths as much as they did in 2006. However, the Titans made the playoff and Young is still far from the finished product, especially as a passer, but he will continue to improve the more he plays.
18. Jason Campbell
Injured starter, Washington Redskins
Campbell is extremely talented and will be a frontline starter. He has the arm strength to attack all levels in the passing game while making defenses defend the whole field. While he could improve his accuracy in the short and intermediate areas in the passing game as well as his ability to process the reads while getting rid of the ball quicker, he has a bright future.
19. Jake Delhomme
Injured starter, Carolina Panthers
All you have to do is study Carolina's offense once Delhomme was injured in Week 3 to see how much the Panthers missed his ability within their system. He is an experienced player with an outstanding competitive demeanor. He is smart and instinctive, and he processes information while getting rid of the ball quickly. He doesn't have the big-time arm but does a great job of throwing in the Panthers' rhythm offense with good timing.
20. Kurt Warner
Starter, Arizona Cardinals
Warner played at a very high level last season, reminding people of his days in St. Louis. He showed very good toughness while playing with a dislocated left elbow. He cut down on mistakes, used his experience and smarts when attacking an opponent's weakness on the backend. He is still very effective when getting time in the pocket and throwing in rhythm in the short and intermediate areas of the passing game.
Here's 20-50
21. Jon Kitna
Starter, Detroit Lions
He is in an offense that simply doesn't run the ball often, so his yardage, touchdown and interception numbers are inflated. Still, the number of interceptions remain worrisome. He is a good, intelligent leader and shows real toughness playing behind a terrible offensive line. Physically, none of his traits stand out, but he is not a major liability in any one area, either. He is best-suited as a caretaker quarterback, grooming a young, talented QB like he did in Cincinnati with Palmer.
22. Matt Leinart
Injured starter, Arizona Cardinals
Before his injury, Leinart was far from impressive last season in a new offensive system. He is an ordinary athlete and doesn't have a big arm, but he has some swagger to him and throws a very catchable, accurate ball. Leinart could benefit from sitting behind Warner for another season to learn what it takes to succeed in this league.
23. Matt Schaub
Injured starter, Houston Texans
The biggest question with Schaub now is his ability to take a hit and stay on the field. He seems very brittle behind Houston's ordinary offensive line, but when healthy, he kick-started this offense. He is smart and extremely accurate. Schaub gets the ball out very quickly and already has a great feel for his receivers. If he can stay on the field, he is the Texans' answer at quarterback.
24. Chad Pennington
Backup, New York Jets
Pennington took the fall for the Jets' awful season and gave way to the younger Kellen Clemens, but that doesn't mean Pennington isn't a solid QB. Pennington will surely be elsewhere in 2008, and if he lands in a quick-strike, West Coast offense, he could be very efficient. He clearly does not have a big arm, but he is deadly accurate and has a great feel for the game with good poise and leadership qualities.
25. Rex Grossman
Starter, Chicago Bears
He is wildly inconsistent, slow to process information, turns the ball over too much and tends to play his worst when it matters most -- but starting quarterbacks are hard to find. Grossman is a very good deep thrower and shows toughness to stand in and take the big hit to deliver the ball. He has more than enough arm and still has upside with more refinement.
26. Tarvaris Jackson
Starter, Minnesota Vikings
Jackson played very well towards the end on the 2007 season and things might finally be slowing down and starting to click for him. He has a thick, strong body and excellent athletic ability, but he remains very raw and simply does not throw the ball accurately enough. It is going to take more than just putting a few games together in a row to make us believers, but it certainly is a promising start.
27. Kellen Clemens
Starter, New York Jets
Clemens is well-built, smart and athletic enough to make a few plays with his feet. He throws the ball well but is obviously extremely inexperienced and has quite a ways to go before catching up with the speed of the league. He has a lot of upside and will be given every opportunity to grow but could also use more help from his supporting cast.
36. JaMarcus Russell
Backup, Oakland Raiders
He was the first overall choice in the 2007 draft for a reason -- he is a rare physical specimen with outstanding size, strength and the ability to throw a football through a wall. However, he is raw, even as rookie quarterbacks go, and didn't play all that much football at LSU compared to other top prospects. But wow, is he intriguing.
29. Aaron Rodgers
Backup, Green Bay Packers
Rodgers impressed many when he moved the Packers' offense in Dallas during Week 13, but that enthusiasm must be tempered. The Cowboys didn't prepare for Rodgers and Dallas was playing with a lead. Let's see how he performs after defensive coordinators have more tape to evaluate. He is a sneaky athlete, though, with a quick and compact release. Surely he has learned a thing or two about playing the position from sharing a meeting room with Favre.
30. Brian Griese
Backup, Chicago Bears
Griese is a caretaker quarterback who turns the ball over too much. Obviously, that is not an ideal combination. However, he runs hot and cold and can come off the bench and ignite an offense. He is bright and grew up around the game. Griese is an accurate thrower but has an average arm and doesn't scramble well.
31. Alex Smith
Injured starter, San Francisco 49ers
Boy, did Smith -- and for that matter, the entire San Francisco offense -- take a step backward last season. The "B word" is starting to get thrown around with regularity about this former No. 1 overall selection. He was extremely efficient in college and one of the brighter players in the league at his position. He is a well-above-average athlete, but just is not a very good passer and struggles to put enough velocity on his throws. Still, it's too early to say he's a bust considering he's been injured and doesn't get a lot of help from his his wide receivers and offensive line.
32. Steve McNair
Injured starter, Baltimore Ravens
Once one of the best in the league, the oft-injured McNair just doesn't have anything left. On guts alone, he threw for over 1,000 yards this season. He had a fantastic career and is a borderline Hall of Famer. No one can question his toughness or leadership traits, but he no longer can throw the ball or move his feet as he once did. It is time for McNair to hang it up, but few have done it as well.
33. Trent Edwards
Starter, Buffalo Bills
Edwards has the inside track now to be Buffalo's quarterback of the future. While the Bills are very conservative with their play calling when Edwards is behind center, the rookie is efficient and mature beyond his experience. He throws the ball well and is very bright. He spreads the ball around well and doesn't lock on to one receiver.
34. J.P. Losman
Backup, Buffalo Bills
While Edwards spreads the ball around well, Losman too often focuses on WR Lee Evans. Losman is a big-time athlete and has a cannon for a right arm, but he takes too many risks and doesn't read defenses or process information well. There is still upside with this former first-round selection, and a change of scenery might do him good.
35. Kyle Boller
Starting backup, Baltimore Ravens
Boller's physical skills have never been in question. He can make all the throws with velocity and is a well-above-average athlete for the quarterback position. However, it is pretty clear the Ravens' coaching staff doesn't have enough faith in Boller to open up the offense. He should be further along in his development.
36. Todd Collins
Starting backup, Washington Redskins
Collins, playing for the injured Campbell, led the Redskins to the postseason in 2007. His arm strength is adequate and he's able to scramble if there's trouble in the pocket.
37. Kerry Collins
Backup, Tennessee Titans
Collins has played well when given an opportunity to move the offense. There was some controversy about who should start after Collins played well in relief and Young had some subpar outings when he returned from injuries. Collins is a big, strong passer who is excellent in the veteran backup role and gives his club a chance to win if called upon.
38. Daunte Culpepper
Injured starter, Oakland Raiders
Culpepper is with his third, and possibly last, team and was very inconsistent last season. He still has a strong arm but never totally recovered from a knee injury that has limited his mobility, which made him an outstanding quarterback early in his career.
39. Joey Harrington
Backup, Atlanta Falcons
Harrington was acquired by Atlanta to back up Michael Vick but was quickly forced into the starting role. He performed well at times behind a marginal offensive line but continued to make poor decisions in crucial situations. Harrington does have some tools to win in the league, but he is best in the veteran backup role.
40. Billy Volek
Backup, San Diego Chargers
Volek has long been considered as one of the best backup signal-callers in the league. He has a solid arm with good instincts and the ability to read coverages. Volek has the tools to move an offense and may go down as one of the more talented backup QBs.
41. Byron Leftwich
Backup, Atlanta Falcons
Leftwich's abrupt departure from Jacksonville turned out well for the Jaguars and put Leftwich in a bad light. He is a big, strong passer with an unconventional release and limited mobility. He didn't perform well when given the opportunity in Atlanta and is likely to land with another franchise next season. Still, Leftwich is a young quarterback with tools to be effective, but he needs a strong supporting cast.
42. A.J. Feeley
Backup, Philadelphia Eagles
Feeley had one of the best performances of his career against the Patriots in Week 12. He appears destined to be a career backup. Even if McNabb leaves, rookie Kevin Kolb likely will have the inside track to the starting job. Feeley does have a strong arm and reads coverages well but seems to make at least one poor throw per outing.
43. Sage Rosenfels
Starting backup, Houston Texans
Rosenfels is a big, strong quarterback and a classic pocket passer. He has limited mobility but can make all the throws necessary, with accuracy. When given the chance with Schaub's injury, Rosenfels performed well, and it appears there isn't a drop-off when he is leading the club.
44. Quinn Gray
Backup, Jacksonville Jaguars
Gray is a good-sized QB with a very strong arm. He has struggled with accuracy over the years, but he showed a huge improvement in his ability to fit the ball into tight windows when he replaced the injured Garrard for three games (winning two of them) last season. He throws a nice deep ball that allows his receivers time to run to it and catch it in stride.
45. Gus Frerotte
Starting backup, St. Louis Rams
Frerotte is with his seventh club and is clearly on the back side of his 13-year career. He is a crafty veteran who can win in a backup role. Frerotte doesn't have enough skills to carry the load at the position but has enough arm strength and experience to be a valuable veteran in mentoring a young signal-caller.
46. Trent Dilfer
Starting backup, San Francisco 49ers
Dilfer has lengthened his career because he has continued to be an effective backup quarterback. It would appear his 14-year career is winding down, but Dilfer is valuable as a reliable veteran who is a good decision-maker. Dilfer's skills are diminishing, but he still has enough arm strength and instincts to be effective as a backup with a strong supporting cast.
47. Charlie Batch
Backup, Pittsburgh Steelers
Batch has proved to be a valuable backup for the Steelers the past few years. He has an adequate arm and makes solid decisions, but perhaps even more importantly, he knows his limitations and manages to avoid hurting the team when he plays.
48. Brodie Croyle
Starter, Kansas City Chiefs
Croyle has been easing into the starting job in Kansas City and appears to be the heir apparent. He has a good arm to go along with adequate size and scrambling ability. He has improved on his ability to look coverages off and is willing to go to his checkdown receivers when the downfield routes are not there.
49. Damon Huard
Backup, Kansas City Chiefs
Huard is a career backup who has made good use of the limited opportunities he's had as a starter. He is above average in almost all aspects of the game but does not stand out in any one. He understands the game and does not try to do more than he is capable of doing.
50. Kelly Holcomb
Backup, Minnesota Vikings
Holcomb is a gutsy performer who understands the game and knows his cast. He can make all the throws but has lost a lot of mobility over the years and can make it easy on pass-rushers. Holcomb is a valuable backup.
Herer's the rest:
51. Brad Johnson
Backup, Dallas Cowboys
Johnson seems to be fighting the age issue every year. At 39, he lacks mobility and a big-time arm but makes up for it with his understanding of the game. He is almost like a coach on the field and provides a lot of leadership from the sidelines.
52. Seneca Wallace
Backup, Seattle Seahawks
Wallace is an excellent athlete who has done a solid job stepping in when Hasselbeck has been hurt. He has learned how to play within the system in Seattle and has improved his accuracy and ability to find passing lanes. His size (5-foot-11) makes it difficult for him to see or throw over the top of offensive linemen. He adds the dimension of being able to run when the pass is not there.
53. Jim Sorgi
Backup, Indianapolis Colts
Sorgi has been Manning's backup for the past four years and has done a great job of learning the system in Indianapolis. He has a fragile-looking frame but an above-average arm; he can make the short to intermediate throws with velocity and accuracy. He sometimes struggles with the deep balls when he does not have time to get his feet settled.
54. John Beck
Backup, Miami Dolphins
Beck is a decent-sized QB who appears to have the tools to play, but he is still learning how to use them. He is a touch and rhythm passer who seems to improve as the game progresses. He seems to live off the checkdown passes and needs to take some shots downfield.
55. Luke McCown
Backup, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
McCown has been a backup for most of his career but can fare well when called upon to start (such as in a Week 13 win). He's always had a strong arm and is mobile. His biggest drawback in the past has been his decision-making. McCown is still considered a young QB with upside.
56. David Carr
Backup, Carolina Panthers
Carr was expected to come to Carolina and back up Delhomme, but an injury to Delhomme forced Carr into the mix early. His pocket presence is still suspect and he doesn't make good decisions, something we also saw in Houston. His future is uncertain and teams may be hesitant to take a chance on him now.
57. Cleo Lemon
Starter, Miami Dolphins
Lemon is a mobile QB who has a good arm but doesn't have the skills to be a starter. He can still be a viable backup in the NFL.
58. Brady Quinn
Backup, Cleveland Browns
With the emergence of Anderson as the starting QB for the Browns, Quinn's future remains uncertain. The biggest question: When will the first-round pick see action? Anderson is a restricted free agent. Quinn was a mobile QB in college who threw the ball well. While he showed flashes of potential in the preseason, whether that translates well in the regular season is unknown.
59. Matt Cassel
Backup, New England Patriots
He was pulled from a game by coach Belichick after throwing an interception, so it's obvious Cassel is not ready to be a starter for any NFL team. He has just a decent arm and average pocket presence and needs to work on his decision-making. If anything happens to Brady, Cassel may be only the short-term answer.
60. Dan Orlovsky
Backup, Detroit Lions
Orlovsky is the typical drop-back passer whose strength is in the pocket. He has a good arm and is able to make the necessary throws needed to be an NFL quarterback. His release isn't as quick as it needs to be, and he must be in the same offensive system long enough to be effective.
61. Ryan Fitzpatrick
Backup, Cincinnati Bengals
Fitzpatrick is an intelligent young QB who picked up the Cincinnati system very quickly. He is undersized but can make the throws needed to finish a game and manage the clock. He's had some starting experience in the NFL and makes for a viable backup.
62. Anthony Wright
Backup, New York Giants
Wright is a mobile, veteran QB in his ninth year in the NFL. He is capable of coming in to finish a game if Manning is injured. The former South Carolina star is reliable in running the system and can make the necessary throws.
63. Patrick Ramsey
Backup, Denver Broncos
Ramsey is a veteran QB who has seen starting action in the past. He has a good arm and decent pocket presence. His release is inconsistent and his quickness in reading coverages is lacking.
64. Jamie Martin
Backup, New Orleans Saints
Martin is a veteran QB who's been in the NFL for 13 seasons. He can complete the short and intermediate throws needed to finish a game.
I read this ESPN article for the first time today, but it looks pretty similar to my ranking I did yesterday. Probably because I attempted to rank the QBs not as a huge Broncos fan (which I am), but based on looking at the QBs and their accomplishments wihout considering the team they play for.
broncophan
03-30-2008, 04:26 PM
7-9 is also a stat! Your right, "Stats don't tell the whole story" ;)
Wins and losses are why they play the game.....otherwise no one would keep score......they don't play to see who has the best or worse stats.....;)
Unless I fell asleep and NFL stands for National Fantasy League.:D
Nomad
03-30-2008, 07:16 PM
I would say no as of now! I have a feeling this year will be the year he convinces people he is top 10 worthy!
I would say no as of now! I have a feeling this year will be the year he convinces people he is top 10 worthy!
Finally a statement in this thread that I can really agree with.
fcspikeit
03-30-2008, 07:35 PM
Wins and losses are why they play the game.....otherwise no one would keep score......they don't play to see who has the best or worse stats.....;)
Unless I fell asleep and NFL stands for National Fantasy League.:D
Your W-L argument is growing tiresome! It's simply BS. There are Superbowl winning QB's who are considered no where near the top 50 to ever play the game. Isn't that the ultimate goal? That's truly why they play the game.
So then, why are guys like Jeff Hostetler, Mark Ripen, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson (Just to name a few) Not considered great QB's?
You just can't look at W-L record... We could go 17-2, Win the Superbowl and Cutler still not be considered a great QB. (Look up Mark Ripen).. There's more to it then just being on a winning team.
Bronco9798
03-30-2008, 10:15 PM
Ranking any player at any position is purely subjective and a personal opinion. And in reality who cares where he is ranked by anybody. Just win games and make good decisions. You win and lose as a team.
broncophan
03-31-2008, 05:31 AM
Your W-L argument is growing tiresome! It's simply BS. There are Superbowl winning QB's who are considered no where near the top 50 to ever play the game. Isn't that the ultimate goal? That's truly why they play the game.
So then, why are guys like Jeff Hostetler, Mark Ripen, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson (Just to name a few) Not considered great QB's?
You just can't look at W-L record... We could go 17-2, Win the Superbowl and Cutler still not be considered a great QB. (Look up Mark Ripen).. There's more to it then just being on a winning team.
LOL....as I have said....we could debate this forever!!!!:D
All of those qb's you mentioned......made their team better....even if it was only for a year or two.....or in Doug Williams' case......1 game....:laugh:
I look forward to the upcoming season.....and hopefully good things from Cutler and the broncos!!!
BOSSHOGG30
03-31-2008, 10:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GlfazGL0Ss&feature=related
Cutler High Shool Video
BOSSHOGG30
03-31-2008, 11:10 AM
What do you guys think..........What areas of Jay Cutler's game does he need to improve on?
turftoad
03-31-2008, 11:14 AM
What do you guys think..........What areas of Jay Cutler's game does he need to improve on?
Feel in the pocket. Sensing the pass rush.
BOSSHOGG30
03-31-2008, 11:16 AM
I would like to see him get rid of the ball quicker. Sometimes he holds it too long looking for the big play. Sometimes he will look past an open guy for a short gain hoping he has something long.
NightTrainLayne
03-31-2008, 11:18 AM
I would like to see him get rid of the ball quicker. Sometimes he holds it too long looking for the big play. Sometimes he will look past an open guy for a short gain hoping he has something long.
I agree.
One thing sticks in my mind. Shanny has ALWAYS said that it takes a QB 3 full years to learn his system and be prodcutive in it. This will be Cutler's 3rd season if you count 2006 as the first season. By the end of this season, hopefully, we will be seeing a really productive and efficient QB.
r8rh8r
03-31-2008, 11:34 AM
Brandon Marshall had 70 first downs on 102 catches last season. He's a guy who gets the ball on short routes and is adept at making big plays after the catch. Without a true deep threat in the passing game, its a lot easier for teams to shut down Marshall. I don't think Keary Colbert is the guy; I don't think a deep threat exists on our roster (I'm not saying Marshall 'can't' be effective on deep routes, its just not his distinctive ability). We all saw how effect Cutler was when Walker was healthy his rookie year. If he had someone to stretch the field, he can get deliver the ball.
7.5 YPA is solid. To be an elite QB, this number needs to get into the 7.8+ range. Mostly, this is a function of the receiving core (holding completion percentage constant--which it generally is after a players first 1-3 seasons).
Cutler's completion percentage is fantastic and I think it will improve over the next couple of seasons. His total attempts were 467 last year; Denver was trying to keep Plummer under 25 attempts (400 per year) his last 2 years in Denver. The fact that Shanahan doesn't have a leash on Cutler shows his confidence in Cutler's ability. Cutler's pick totals aren't any worse than Tom Brady's or a host of other top-shelf QB's.
One knock on Cutler last season was his anemic touchdown totals. He had eight touchdowns through the first eight games of the season--including 3 in one game. To finish the season, he had 12 of his 20 TD's and only 6 of his 14 interceptions (8 ints and 8 TD's through the first half), a considerably better pace. He did that despite taking 15 of his 27 sacks over this stretch, likely due to injuries to Hamilton, Lepsis, and Nalen.
The short answer is "yes," I think Cutler is already a top 10 QB. He's already the best QB in the AFC west and outside of Manning and Brady, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better QB in the AFC. Philip Rivers had a paltry 6.9 YPA last season (probably because his WR's suck), completing on 60% of his passes on the same number of attempts as Cutler. For being such an ******* to Cutler, he sure is overrated.
topscribe
03-31-2008, 12:08 PM
I would like to see him get rid of the ball quicker. Sometimes he holds it too long looking for the big play. Sometimes he will look past an open guy for a short gain hoping he has something long.
I believe that is one of the things a young player has to learn: let the game
come to him. It is good that Cutler has a big-play mentality . . . that is the
sign of a playmaker. Yet the young player has to learn when to recognize
when an opportunity is developing and when it is not. That is what one sees
in Manning and Brady, and that was probably Montana's greatest strength.
However, Cutler is not cut in the Brady/Manning/Montana mold. He is more the
Favre/Elway type, the gunslinger who makes the most of everything he can.
While I see his wisdom and field vision improving immensely, I don't believe he
will ever be a true "west coast" QB who always takes the safe route. Just
as Favre and Elway did, he will accumulate his share of interceptions. But
he will also carry the team to wins in the second half, just as Favre and
Elway did, and just as he (Cutler) has in several games already.
Elway often pulled what seemed bonehead plays and had me going :doh: .
Those were often first-half blunders. Yet he could take over and pull the
team out of the fire, and dig himself out of his own holes . . . in many late-
game heroics.
Fasten your seat belts, ladies and gentleman: We have another one just like
that.
-----
HolyDiver
03-31-2008, 12:22 PM
What do you guys think..........What areas of Jay Cutler's game does he need to improve on?
He needs to throw the ball away more and try not to break Brett Favre's record for most career interceptions.
BOSSHOGG30
03-31-2008, 12:27 PM
He needs to throw the ball away more and try not to break Brett Favre's record for most career interceptions.
That will be hard to do... He would need to double his interception totals and he would have to play a hell of a lot of games. Farve was an iron man.
r8rh8r
03-31-2008, 12:44 PM
He needs to throw the ball away more and try not to break Brett Favre's record for most career interceptions.
Its hard to complain about 14 interceptions in 16 games after enduring 5 years of Jake the Snake. Only two 16-game starters threw fewer picks than Cutler last season: Tom Brady (8) and Matt Hasselbeck (12). Peyton Manning was tied with Cutler at 14. Is that bad?
What do you guys think..........What areas of Jay Cutler's game does he need to improve on?
Scan the field more, not lock in on receivers as much -- it telegraphs it to the defenders, not to mention means he misses open receivers.
More pocket awareness -- better feel for when to run or throw the ball away
Better technique on the long ball. I say technique, because I don't think it is arm strength, but probably setting up to throw. After we were wowed by the bootleg left and 65 yard throw into the endzone in his second game (I think it was the second gave vs. AZ, but could be wrong), the rest of that season and last season he has been much better on the short and intermediate distances than the long ones. More times than not, he has been underthrowing the deep receivers, or being well off target. He has the arm for the bomb, so I am guessing it is something about setting up and deliviring accurately.
Understanding that turnovers kill a team. Whether it is bonehead INTs or fumbles, he has to learn to protect the ball.
Don't be afraid to run for the first down. He did that a few times last year, especially late, but it goes along with the pocket awareness. When things are breaking down, use his mobility to make a play happen.
Bronco9798
03-31-2008, 12:53 PM
I believe that is one of the things a young player has to learn: let the game
come to him. It is good that Cutler has a big-play mentality . . . that is the
sign of a playmaker. Yet the young player has to learn when to recognize
when an opportunity is developing and when it is not. That is what one sees
in Manning and Brady, and that was probably Montana's greatest strength.
However, Cutler is not cut in the Brady/Manning/Montana mold. He is more the
Favre/Elway type, the gunslinger who makes the most of everything he can.
While I see his wisdom and field vision improving immensely, I don't believe he
will ever be a true "west coast" QB who always takes the safe route. Just
as Favre and Elway did, he will accumulate his share of interceptions. But
he will also carry the team to wins in the second half, just as Favre and
Elway did, and just as he (Cutler) has in several games already.
Elway often pulled what seemed bonehead plays and had me going :doh: .
Those were often first-half blunders. Yet he could take over and pull the
team out of the fire, and dig himself out of his own holes . . . in many late-
game heroics.
Fasten your seat belts, ladies and gentleman: We have another one just like
that.
-----
And that's not a bad thing. Like you say, we'll live with the WTF was that to get to the Wow, did you see that. You're right on though, it's going to be a ride. Hopefully, Jay way will pick up that Manning/Brady presence along the way and continue to make the big plays and win a few Super Bowls along the way. But like you said, It's going to be fun, and hopefully successful!!!!
topscribe
03-31-2008, 01:26 PM
And that's not a bad thing. Like you say, we'll live with the WTF was that to get to the Wow, did you see that. You're right on though, it's going to be a ride. Hopefully, Jay way will pick up that Manning/Brady presence along the way and continue to make the big plays and win a few Super Bowls along the way. But like you said, It's going to be fun, and hopefully successful!!!!
Nah. I want Cutler to pick up the Elway/Favre presence.
I remember one game . . . I don't even know what year it was now . . . when
the Broncos stopped the other team and got the ball back for the offense.
The Broncos were down late in the game, and the offense took the field. The
play-by-play guy said, "Here comes Elway."
The color man said, "Uh-oh."
That little expression pretty much wrapped up Elway's career. No one put
the fear into a defense as did Elway. No one.
(That, by the way, was an opinion expressed by John Madden.)
If one does not think Cutler possesses that quality, one just needs to
review some of his highlights. Elway was the only quarterback I ever saw
who had Elway's ability to run to one side of the field and throw a rope to
the other side . . . off his back foot if he had to.
Until now . . .
-----
topscribe
03-31-2008, 01:32 PM
Scan the field more, not lock in on receivers as much -- it telegraphs it to the defenders, not to mention means he misses open receivers.
More pocket awareness -- better feel for when to run or throw the ball away
Better technique on the long ball. I say technique, because I don't think it is arm strength, but probably setting up to throw. After we were wowed by the bootleg left and 65 yard throw into the endzone in his second game (I think it was the second gave vs. AZ, but could be wrong), the rest of that season and last season he has been much better on the short and intermediate distances than the long ones. More times than not, he has been underthrowing the deep receivers, or being well off target. He has the arm for the bomb, so I am guessing it is something about setting up and deliviring accurately.
Understanding that turnovers kill a team. Whether it is bonehead INTs or fumbles, he has to learn to protect the ball.
Don't be afraid to run for the first down. He did that a few times last year, especially late, but it goes along with the pocket awareness. When things are breaking down, use his mobility to make a play happen.
I'd say that's a pretty good assessment, although he did, as the season
wore on, start looking off receivers more than at first. I believe that is a
malady brought into the game by most all QBs, probably because they have
so much to think about that will become instinctive later on.
Also, as I said, get used to interceptions. He will get better at that, but, as
I mentioned earlier, Cutler is a gunslinger. He puts balls into tight spots. He
will throw a few INTs, and he will cause our jaws to hit the floor with plays
only he can pull off.
-----
turftoad
03-31-2008, 01:38 PM
I'd say that's a pretty good assessment, although he did, as the season
wore on, start looking off receivers more than at first. I believe that is a
malady brought into the game by most all QBs, probably because they have
so much to think about that will become instinctive later on.
Also, as I said, get used to interceptions. He will get better at that, but, as
I mentioned earlier, Cutler is a gunslinger. He puts balls into tight spots. He
will throw a few INTs, and he will cause our jaws to hit the floor with plays
only he can pull off.
-----
Thus, he's going to be fun to watch for many years to come.
topscribe
03-31-2008, 01:40 PM
Thus, he's going to be fun to watch for many years to come.
Just make sure you get a regular a cardio-pulminary checkup . . .
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HolyDiver
03-31-2008, 01:42 PM
That will be hard to do... He would need to double his interception totals and he would have to play a hell of a lot of games. Farve was an iron man.
I was be juuuuuust a little sarcastic there Boss................just a tad........Okay, basically I'm saying his major area for improvement would be making better decissions..................okay Boss?
fcspikeit
03-31-2008, 01:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GlfazGL0Ss&feature=related
Cutler High School Video
That settles it! Cutler was a top 10 QB even while still in high school :D
Nice find BOSS! :salute:
I'd say that's a pretty good assessment, although he did, as the season
wore on, start looking off receivers more than at first. I believe that is a
malady brought into the game by most all QBs, probably because they have
so much to think about that will become instinctive later on.
Also, as I said, get used to interceptions. He will get better at that, but, as
I mentioned earlier, Cutler is a gunslinger. He puts balls into tight spots. He
will throw a few INTs, and he will cause our jaws to hit the floor with plays
only he can pull off.
-----
Yes, I agree on both counts. The way I used to not get upset when Elway through a high risk pass back across his body / across the center of the field, I am hoping that Cutler will be enough of a play maker as time goes by that I feel the same way about him.
I think he has gotten better about locking in on receivers, but even late in the season he was guilty of it. In one of the last handful of games I remember one where he was locked in on Scheffler or someone in the center of the field and never saw the linebacker whos hands he threw it into. I think it will get better with time.
I put my thoughts of Cutler in haiku form:
Cutler is top ten
Or maybe he will be soon
Viva Jay Cutler!
HolyDiver
03-31-2008, 03:17 PM
I put my thoughts of Cutler in haiku form:
Cutler is top ten
Or maybe he will be soon
Viva Jay Cutler!
That's a haiku?
That's a haiku?
You dont think so?
broncosfanscott
04-01-2008, 01:49 AM
That is a haiku.
5-7-5
Benetto
04-08-2008, 12:11 PM
Hell yes Jay is a top 10 QB..Heres the 2007 stats to prove it:
Regular season totals
comp - ranked 10
Yards- ranked 10
1st downs- ranked 10
1st down %- ranked 7
QB rating- ranked 12
yards/game- ranked 13
TD's- ranked 13
With a decent Offensive line, Cutler could be a top 5 QB EASILY.
I only came across this recently, so I thought I'd add it to this thread. It's a nice opinion piece by super7 of MHR, showing just how good Cutler's performed in 2007, compared to some recent great QB in their first full season.
http://www.milehighreport.com/story/2008/3/19/15330/3065
http://images.milehighreport.com/images/user/6/QBComparison.JPG
Stats don't tell the whole story, but consider what he was able to accomplish with nowhere the protection Brady got, nor the defense the Pats had at the time, while having a makeshift OL and missing WRs and RBs due to injury. Very few QB in the league today can do what he did with the offensive and defensive handicaps his team had.
BANJOPICKER1
04-15-2008, 09:15 PM
I was reading through a thread on another site and after reading it I was wondering if Cutler is in fact a top 10 QB right now in this league.
No special Order... Would you have Culter in the top 10 or even top 5?
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Tony Romo
5. Carson Palmer
6. Drew Brees
7. Jay Cutler
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Marc Bulger
10. David Garrard
11. Donovan McNabb
12. David Anderson
13. Matt Schaub
14. Chad Pennington
15. Eli Manning
I think at this point he fits right at #7...I do think he is on his way up this list...:salute:
GOOOOOOOOOOOOO BRONCOS!!!:D
topscribe
04-15-2008, 09:53 PM
I think at this point he fits right at #7...I do think he is on his way up this list...:salute:
GOOOOOOOOOOOOO BRONCOS!!!:D
I agree, although I still have a problem with Roethlisberger and Phyllis Rivers being ranked so highly.
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DenBronx
03-18-2009, 03:51 PM
:bump2:
1.Peyton
2.Brady.
3.Roethlisburgerandfries
4.Drew Brees
5.Tony Romo
6. Kurt Warner (seriously, his career is so up and down, and the Cardinals were such a fluke that I doubt they or he does much next year. He had such a fantastic year that I have to rank him much higher than I would normally /ugh)
7. Phillip Rivers (better stats and playoff berths, sorry, he has to be ranked higher at the moment.)
8. McNabb.
9.Jay Cutler
10. Carson Palmer (if he goes back to his 05 ways he's taking the number 3 or 4 spot. If he goes back to his 06 ways he moves up as well, but not much. I think a lot of his former great talent was lost in his injuries, plus his offensive line was awful. Leave it to Cincinnati to potentially ruin one of the greatest QB talents to actually pan out :mad::mad::mad:)
Jay has to be a top ten QB, but I cou
NightTrainLayne
03-18-2009, 05:03 PM
1.Peyton
2.Brady.
3.Roethlisburgerandfries
4.Drew Brees
5.Tony Romo
6. Kurt Warner (seriously, his career is so up and down, and the Cardinals were such a fluke that I doubt they or he does much next year. He had such a fantastic year that I have to rank him much higher than I would normally /ugh)
7. Phillip Rivers (better stats and playoff berths, sorry, he has to be ranked higher at the moment.)
8. McNabb.
9.Jay Cutler
10. Carson Palmer (if he goes back to his 05 ways he's taking the number 3 or 4 spot. If he goes back to his 06 ways he moves up as well, but not much. I think a lot of his former great talent was lost in his injuries, plus his offensive line was awful. Leave it to Cincinnati to potentially ruin one of the greatest QB talents to actually pan out :mad::mad::mad:)
Jay has to be a top ten QB, but I cou
Remove Romo, move everyone up a step, and put Romo back in at #10.
Magnificent Seven
03-18-2009, 05:05 PM
Carson Palmer is in # 5???? I disagreed! Cutler is way better than Palmer!
Broncospsycho77
03-18-2009, 05:16 PM
Carson Palmer is in # 5???? I disagreed! Cutler is way better than Palmer!
Read when the post was made.
Remove Romo, move everyone up a step, and put Romo back in at #10.
Romo can play. Honestly, for a guy with the stats that he has had, plus playoff berths, he is pretty good. He gets more hate than he should because he dates gorgeous women and because he is a Cowboy. Hell, one of his biggest career mess ups came from being a starting QB who sucks at holding onto a football during a field goal/point after (I honestly don't remember which one it was).
Romo's overall production puts him where I have him IMO.
Northman
03-18-2009, 06:03 PM
Romo can play. Honestly, for a guy with the stats that he has had, plus playoff berths, he is pretty good. He gets more hate than he should because he dates gorgeous women and because he is a Cowboy. Hell, one of his biggest career mess ups came from being a starting QB who sucks at holding onto a football during a field goal/point after (I honestly don't remember which one it was).
Romo's overall production puts him where I have him IMO.
Even though he may never be a HOF'r i always liked Dave Krieg. But he couldnt hold onto a ball to save his life. :lol:
getlynched47
03-18-2009, 06:05 PM
Cutler is better than Bulger, and possibly Palmer.
And I could make an argument that Cutler is a better overall QuarterBack than Ben Roethlisberger...because Big Ben has always had a top 10 defense and a strong running game to make him look a lot better.
Just imagine what Cutler could do with a solid defense and consistant running game :eek:
Championship :salute:
Lonestar
03-18-2009, 06:08 PM
Cutler is better than Bulger, and possibly Palmer.
And I could make an argument that Cutler is a better overall QuarterBack than Ben Roethlisberger...because Big Ben has always had a top 10 defense and a strong running game to make him look a lot better.
Just imagine what Cutler could do with a solid defense and consistant running game :eek:
Championship :salute:
if he gets his head out of his ass and gets with the program he will have that, if not late this year, then next year..
Northman
03-18-2009, 06:09 PM
And I could make an argument that Cutler is a better overall QuarterBack than Ben Roethlisberger...because Big Ben has always had a top 10 defense and a strong running game to make him look a lot better.
Hmmmmm, i dont know about that. Yes, he has had a good surrounding cast but when the plays matter the most he makes them. The dude is tough as nails and knows how to finish a game winning drive. Cutler has his moments but not enough of them for me right now to place him above Big Ben. He certainly has a better arm but it takes more to be a great QB than just an arm.
Overtime
03-18-2009, 06:17 PM
I was reading through a thread on another site and after reading it I was wondering if Cutler is in fact a top 10 QB right now in this league.
No special Order... Would you have Culter in the top 10 or even top 5?
1. Peyton Manning
2. Tom Brady
3. Ben Roethlisberger
4. Tony Romo
5. Carson Palmer
6. Drew Brees
7. Jay Cutler
8. Phillip Rivers
9. Marc Bulger
10. David Garrard
11. Donovan McNabb
12. David Anderson
13. Matt Schaub
14. Chad Pennington
15. Eli Manning
nope not even close. Top 10 QB's don't throw fits and act like babies. Top 10 QB's don't throw INT's that cost their team the game. Top 10 QB's, go to the playoffs and win playoff games.
NameUsedBefore
03-18-2009, 06:31 PM
nope not even close. Top 10 QB's don't throw fits and act like babies. Top 10 QB's don't throw INT's that cost their team the game. Top 10 QB's, go to the playoffs and win playoff games.
Then a Top-10 can't feasibly exist.
Watchthemiddle
03-18-2009, 07:02 PM
Its not too hard to be a top 10 QB in this league. Top 5, now thats something to write home about...but top 10....GREAT JOB.....
:rolleyes:
To answer the question though...he is not even a top 10 in this league. IMO
Cutler is better than Bulger, and possibly Palmer.
And I could make an argument that Cutler is a better overall QuarterBack than Ben Roethlisberger...because Big Ben has always had a top 10 defense and a strong running game to make him look a lot better.
Just imagine what Cutler could do with a solid defense and consistant running game :eek:
Championship :salute:
Cutler currently is a good QB who is overrated an astounding amount by some of his fans. I don't blame anyone, in 2005 some people (mostly my fellow Cincinnati fans) thought Palmer was instantly a top five QB. Honestly, I thought that his true talent came out (he lead Cincy to one of our few good moments breaking the playoffs slump and being the only QB to be top five in every stat category, good god that was a great year). The reality is that everyone thinks that their guy is better than he is, and when it comes down arguing it I see most fans exaggerrating their guy's case.
Cutler is good, right now he is not great. A lot of guys have better stats. A lot of guys have more wins. Winning is a team acheievement, and it's overrated so much when yo judge a single player. Dan Marino never won a SB, but I think he could have won a SB as the Steelers QB. Trent Dilfer won a SB and he was average at best. The examples go on and on and on.
For Cutler to be great he needs to have some more good years, and Cutler had a good stat year, not a great one. The standard for a great year as a QB in our leage today is 30 TDs, another standard is a 2:1 TD to INT ratio (give or take a few, you have to take into account that usually a few INTs aren't the QB's fault - tipped balls, being forced to throw into coverage because of remaining game time left, WR messing up, etc etc etc).
For some people he is going to need to get to the playoffs every year (barring a blip here and there) ala Manning, Brady, Hasslebeck, Big Ben, etc etc etc.
My point is that I see a lot of strange things in this thread. I hate Phillip Rivers, he's a douche and getting up in the face of fans like that should warrant a big time fine and possibly a one game suspension in my mind, but he is better than Cutler. He has better stats, and to top it off he has been to the playoffs more than Cutler. You are not better than a player if he outproduces you and has more wins than you. You are certainly not better than him if he is more proven than you are.
Jay Cutler has quite a journey to reach top five status. He will get there though, I'd put some cash on that.
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