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Biz1
03-04-2010, 11:12 AM
I have several Bear fans on a large site trying to spoon feed me via postings what appears to be misinformation regarding the Broncos. How would you all respond to this?.

My posting as follows:

The Bears gave up a serviceable QB who performed well in Denver+3 picks for a slight to moderate increase in raw talent that still needs development.
The Broncos made out like bandits.

Response as follows from Bear fan:

As for the Broncos making out like bandits. Sure they did. Orton sucked like always in the 2nd half when the Broncos D wasn't good anymore. Their first round pick they got from the Bears last year has been a ghost, they traded the 3rd round pick and they'll find a way to botch this years first round pick like they do every year with their first round picks.

:lol:

Buff
03-04-2010, 11:22 AM
Well, I'd probably remind him that Jay Cutler threw 26 INTs and led the Bears to a worse overall record than Orton did with the Broncos.

The trade itself benefited Denver IMO, Jhey Cutler is not a complete enough package to garner the picks and another starting QB... But when you look at the net result given how we spent those draft picks, the Bears fan has a point. The Alphonso Smith trade is something most Bronco fans would like to forget about. Or we'd like to see him get his ass out of the club and into the gym more frequently.

yardog
03-04-2010, 11:23 AM
I have several Bear fans on a large site trying to spoon feed me via postings what appears to be misinformation regarding the Broncos. How would you all respond to this?.

My posting as follows:

The Bears gave up a serviceable QB who performed well in Denver+3 picks for a slight to moderate increase in raw talent that still needs development.
The Broncos made out like bandits.

Response as follows from Bear fan:

As for the Broncos making out like bandits. Sure they did. Orton sucked like always in the 2nd half when the Broncos D wasn't good anymore. Their first round pick they got from the Bears last year has been a ghost, they traded the 3rd round pick and they'll find a way to botch this years first round pick like they do every year with their first round picks.

:lol:

IMO The Bears got the better end of the trade give it time and Jay will prove himself to be well worth the picks that were given up. While we will still be stuck with a weak armed backup for a starter. :tsk: Lets hope the Broncos at least get some help from the picks on Def.

UnderArmour
03-04-2010, 11:23 AM
At this point, there really is no response to that. Ayers, Moreno, and Alphonso Smith were not instant pro bowlers or playing at an extremely high level. In another two years, if all 3 are solid starters, then we can say we made out like bandits. Although Moreno was chosen with our original selection, having the Bears pick last year allowed us to go offense with that pick as opposed to defense, so he's a factor in that trade as well.

With Cutler looking great at the end of last year once he finally had a WR he liked and ignoring Turner's coaching at the end of the Bears game and getting the win, it's starting to look like it was his offense around him that contributed to his early troubles. It's really hard to argue with this guy right now if the Bears go out and spend big in free agency and grab elite players.

claymore
03-04-2010, 11:31 AM
Bears got the better end of the deal. Cutlers worst year in a young 4 year career was still better than pretty much anyone but Marino's worst in their first 4 years of their career.

broncobryce
03-04-2010, 11:34 AM
I would tell them at least we have draft picks. Those dumbasses traded every pick they have, and now they don't have shit. As far as us botching every first round pick we've had, that's BS. Plus we have new management drafting, in case they forgot Shanahan is in washington.

broncobryce
03-04-2010, 11:37 AM
Then I would tell them there better be good doctors in chicago, because between Cutler's diabetes and Martz's heart problems, the emergency room should be ready. And Martz will need extra meds for when Cutler throws pick after pick after pick after pick...........

Ravage!!!
03-04-2010, 11:38 AM
I still think the Bears got the best end of the deal. We could end up with nothing out of it. We certainly didn't make out like Bandits. People over exaggerate the one season of 20+ INTs. All QBs have had them, even the greatest that have played. Jay is a game changer.

Although..thye just hired an OC that is going to kill that team. The OC that doesn't care about INTs, and kills every offense he's coached that didn't have Warner.

Ravage!!!
03-04-2010, 11:38 AM
Then I would tell them there better be good doctors in chicago, because between Cutler's diabetes and Martz's heart problems, the emergency room should be ready. And Martz will need extra meds for when Cutler throws pick after pick after pick after pick...........

Martz has never cared about INTs.

Biz1
03-04-2010, 11:40 AM
At this point, there really is no response to that. Ayers, Moreno, and Alphonso Smith were not instant pro bowlers or playing at an extremely high level. In another two years, if all 3 are solid starters, then we can say we made out like bandits. Although Moreno was chosen with our original selection, having the Bears pick last year allowed us to go offense with that pick as opposed to defense, so he's a factor in that trade as well.

With Cutler looking great at the end of last year once he finally had a WR he liked and ignoring Turner's coaching at the end of the Bears game and getting the win, it's starting to look like it was his offense around him that contributed to his early troubles. It's really hard to argue with this guy right now if the Bears go out and spend big in free agency and grab elite players.

I already used Moreno in the equation, that killed his poor first round Denver drafting comment. The entire conversation is premature on Cubs.com b/c it generally takes 2 full seasons to evaluate a draft pick failure/success IMHO plus you haven't even used the other pick yet. Do the Broncos have a history of poor 1st round selections dating back to Shanny?.

And were Orton's 2nd half stats as opposed to first really that bad?

claymore
03-04-2010, 11:40 AM
I would tell them at least we have draft picks. Those dumbasses traded every pick they have, and now they don't have shit. As far as us botching every first round pick we've had, that's BS. Plus we have new management drafting, in case they forgot Shanahan is in washington.

We blew 3 first round picks last year and Moreno is the only starter.

broncobryce
03-04-2010, 11:44 AM
We blew 3 first round picks last year and Moreno is the only starter.

I don't think a draft can be judged after one season. You may end up being correct, but it's too early to tell.

claymore
03-04-2010, 11:49 AM
I don't think a draft can be judged after one season. You may end up being correct, but it's too early to tell.

Very true. But trading Cutler for picks made us trailer park rich and we blew picks we shouldnt have.

Its another unseen thing that hurt us with the Cutler trade.

Dreadnought
03-04-2010, 11:52 AM
We blew 3 first round picks last year and Moreno is the only starter.

And not a very good one at that

TXBRONC
03-04-2010, 11:56 AM
I already used Moreno in the equation, that killed his poor first round Denver drafting comment. The entire conversation is premature on Cubs.com b/c it generally takes 2 full seasons to evaluate a draft pick failure/success IMHO plus you haven't even used the other pick yet. Do the Broncos have a history of poor 1st round selections dating back to Shanny?.

And were Orton's 2nd half stats as opposed to first really that bad?

Yes Orton's 2nd half stats were that bad 12 touchdowns and 11 interceptions over the last 10 games of the season.

claymore
03-04-2010, 11:57 AM
And not a very good one at that

I know there is some hate on Moreno. I like him, and think he would have been outstanding in the 2008 offense. Its not his fault he was drafted, and put in the "East coast bubble screen" offense.

Biz1
03-04-2010, 12:02 PM
I know there is some hate on Moreno. I like him, and think he would have been outstanding in the 2008 offense. Its not his fault he was drafted, and put in the "East coast bubble screen" offense.

957 yards/3.8 avg. isn't bad for a rook.

Off-topic, would there be any interest in Greg Olsen for a 2nd round pick?.

yardog
03-04-2010, 12:02 PM
I know there is some hate on Moreno. I like him, and think he would have been outstanding in the 2008 offense. Its not his fault he was drafted, and put in the "East coast bubble screen" offense.

I don't know Clay every time he ran I kept getting the feeling we spent a 1st round pick on Tatum Bell. :tsk:

claymore
03-04-2010, 12:07 PM
957 yards/3.8 avg. isn't bad for a rook.

Off-topic, would there be any interest in Greg Olsen for a 2nd round pick?.
I doubt it, we cant use the weapons we already have.

I don't know Clay every time he ran I kept getting the feeling we spent a 1st round pick on Tatum Bell. :tsk:

I dont like JMCD, but Moreno is a guy I really like. He brings intensity Bell never brought. He is the one guy we drafted that wants to be great.

Buff
03-04-2010, 12:11 PM
I don't know Clay every time he ran I kept getting the feeling we spent a 1st round pick on Tatum Bell. :tsk:

He reminds me of a slightly shiftier version of Mike Bell. He doesn't have Tatum's speed, but he has more moves and can break more tackles. Still, I was largely disappointed with his rookie campaign. But I don't know how much of that is on the O-line and now much of that can be chalked up to his preseason injury. I'm really interested to see how he does in year 2.

broncobryce
03-04-2010, 12:17 PM
He reminds me of a slightly shiftier version of Mike Bell. He doesn't have Tatum's speed, but he has more moves and can break more tackles. Still, I was largely disappointed with his rookie campaign. But I don't know how much of that is on the O-line and now much of that can be chalked up to his preseason injury. I'm really interested to see how he does in year 2.

I think he was a little inconsistent. Overall I was happy with him. As Clay mentioned, I think he has the drive to be great and will work his ass off until he is. As long as the blocking improves as well.

weazel
03-04-2010, 12:29 PM
who won the trade?

well Denver traded away a player that wouldnt have played here either way = win
Denver received picks and a QB for now = win
Chicago received a good QB that they can build around = win

sounds pretty good for both sides, both received what they wanted / needed...

It really is time to move on.

Dreadnought
03-04-2010, 12:29 PM
I don't know Clay every time he ran I kept getting the feeling we spent a 1st round pick on Tatum Bell. :tsk:

I dunno - his power and authority bring me more to mind of Quentin Griffin, but without the speed.

yardog
03-04-2010, 12:29 PM
He reminds me of a slightly shiftier version of Mike Bell. He doesn't have Tatum's speed, but he has more moves and can break more tackles. Still, I was largely disappointed with his rookie campaign. But I don't know how much of that is on the O-line and now much of that can be chalked up to his preseason injury. I'm really interested to see how he does in year 2.

Now that you say it Buff Mike Bell maybe a better comparison.

pnbronco
03-04-2010, 12:34 PM
According to USA today NFL Salaries:

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=144

With Cutlers signing bonus he was the second highest paid QB in the NFL in 2009:
Base: $ 14,944,090
Bonus 7,000,000

Total $ 22,044,090

Only Rivers made more because he had a signing bonus of $ 19,550,000 with a base of $ 6,000,000 for a total of $25,556,630.

Ortons salary with bonus....$ 1,095,000.

I think it's safe to say that Cutler's agent is brilliant and the Bears are stuck with a base of almost $ 15,000,000 regardless if he shows improvement or not.

Dreadnought
03-04-2010, 12:38 PM
957 yards/3.8 avg. isn't bad for a rook.

Off-topic, would there be any interest in Greg Olsen for a 2nd round pick?.

3.8 avg. is dismal for a Broncos RB, and sub-mediocre anywhere in the league. It was the worst RB performance we've seen here since Wade Phillips tried to build a ground game around Leonard Russell.

claymore
03-04-2010, 12:39 PM
According to USA today NFL Salaries:

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=144

With Cutlers signing bonus he was the second highest paid QB in the NFL in 2009:
Base: $ 14,944,090
Bonus 7,000,000

Total $ 22,044,090

Only Rivers made more because he had a signing bonus of $ 19,550,000 with a base of $ 6,000,000 for a total of $25,556,630.

Ortons salary with bonus....$ 1,095,000.

I think it's safe to say that Cutler's agent is brilliant and the Bears are stuck with a base of almost $ 15,000,000 regardless if he shows improvement or not.His agent is a real basturd. I might like him less than McDaniels. :mad:

Dreadnought
03-04-2010, 12:41 PM
As for Olsen? Great TE, and you guys would be certifiably insane to let him go. OTOH, we already couldn't figger out a way to use Scheffler, so I doubt we'd make the trade. Plus, Olsen never played for Belichick anywhere

claymore
03-04-2010, 12:41 PM
3.8 avg. is dismal for a Broncos RB, and sub-mediocre anywhere in the league. It was the worst RB performance we've seen here since Wade Phillips tried to build a ground game around Leonard Russell.

Its the offense Dread.

yardog
03-04-2010, 12:47 PM
Its the offense Dread.

:tsk: Sorry it happens every time i think about it.

Dreadnought
03-04-2010, 12:52 PM
Its the offense Dread.

I have no doubt that this contributed, but I don't think its an either/or situation. This offense sucks and Moreno is a dud - both can be true at the same time.

Denver Native (Carol)
03-04-2010, 12:56 PM
who won the trade?

well Denver traded away a player that wouldnt have played here either way = win
Denver received picks and a QB for now = win
Chicago received a good QB that they can build around = win

sounds pretty good for both sides, both received what they wanted / needed...

It really is time to move on.

Best post in the thread

claymore
03-04-2010, 12:57 PM
I have no doubt that this contributed, but I don't think its an either/or situation. This offense sucks and Moreno is a dud - both can be true at the same time.

My anger is generated at stuff like the Alphonso Smith trade. Moreno was drafted where he was supposed to be drafted. If he doesnt work out, at least it was a reasonable chance we took.

At least we didnt draft Moreno 20-30 spots higher than he was rated by every other team in the NFL.

Dreadnought
03-04-2010, 01:00 PM
My anger is generated at stuff like the Alphonso Smith trade. Moreno was drafted where he was supposed to be drafted. If he doesnt work out, at least it was a reasonable chance we took.

At least we didnt draft Moreno 20-30 spots higher than he was rated by every other team in the NFL.

I can agree with that. I didn't like the Moreno pick, but it was more defensible than the absurd Alphonso Smith or Richard Quinn picks.

CoachChaz
03-04-2010, 01:05 PM
Did anyone else pay attention to the draft last year and where most teams ACTUALLY projected Smith?

Apparently not. Whether he pans out or not, taking him where we did was not a reach by any means.

claymore
03-04-2010, 01:11 PM
Did anyone else pay attention to the draft last year and where most teams ACTUALLY projected Smith?

Apparently not. Whether he pans out or not, taking him where we did was not a reach by any means.Drafting where we did was smart. Trading our number one to do it was retarded.

broncobryce
03-04-2010, 01:12 PM
Did anyone else pay attention to the draft last year and where most teams ACTUALLY projected Smith?

Apparently not. Whether he pans out or not, taking him where we did was not a reach by any means.

Anyone remember Brandon Marshall's rookie year? He turned out pretty good. I know he was a fourth round pick, but my point is give a guy more than one season before you call him a dud or bust.

claymore
03-04-2010, 01:22 PM
Anyone remember Brandon Marshall's rookie year? He turned out pretty good. I know he was a fourth round pick, but my point is give a guy more than one season before you call him a dud or bust.

If we traded a first for him it would still be looked at a stupid move. And look at how good Marshall is.

CoachChaz
03-04-2010, 01:24 PM
If we traded a first for him it would still be looked at a stupid move. And look at how good Marshall is.

It never ceases to amaze me how everyone BUT me has these crystal balls that allow them to project the future of players and coaches after ONE rookie season.

claymore
03-04-2010, 01:30 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how everyone BUT me has these crystal balls that allow them to project the future of players and coaches after ONE rookie season.

It was a terrible gamble to trade an unknown number one pick for a player in the 2nd round.

It is irrelevnat how good Smith turns out because It was a stupid decision.

If McDaniels truly liked smith that much he would have taken him at 12, or 18.

pnbronco
03-04-2010, 01:32 PM
who won the trade?

well Denver traded away a player that wouldnt have played here either way = win
Denver received picks and a QB for now = win
Chicago received a good QB that they can build around = win

sounds pretty good for both sides, both received what they wanted / needed...

It really is time to move on.

Have to agree Carol. We all won and can move on at least down at Dove....:D

Mike
03-04-2010, 01:35 PM
I give McD the benefit of the doubt and a lot of leeway, but I still think the Smith trade, along with moving up to take the TE, were horrible decisions. I hope I am proven wrong, but those two decisions alone are reasons I will be holding my breath come this years draft.

silkamilkamonico
03-04-2010, 01:38 PM
Ask the Bears why they are treating this like some blockbuster trade between 2 high profile players?

It's equivalent to the "who's better, Jay Fiedler or jon Kitna" argument?

silkamilkamonico
03-04-2010, 01:41 PM
I give McD the benefit of the doubt and a lot of leeway, but I still think the Smith trade, along with moving up to take the TE, were horrible decisions. I hope I am proven wrong, but those two decisions alone are reasons I will be holding my breath come this years draft.

The Smith trade was already argued as a decision based on money. Denver did not want to pay the bonuses of 2 first round picks this year. Bowlen still having to pay Shanahan, coupled with the upcoming looming decisions on Marshall/Kuper/Orton/Doom etc made it very likely why they choose not 2 have 2 first round contracts.

If that's the case, I would have rather they just traded down in the draft. I personally think Alphonso Smith will bust. JMHO.

claymore
03-04-2010, 01:43 PM
The Smith trade was already argued as a decision based on money. Denver did not want to pay the bonuses of 2 first round picks this year. Bowlen still having to pay Shanahan, coupled with the upcoming looming decisions on Marshall/Kuper/Orton/Doom etc made it very likely why they choose not 2 have 2 first round contracts.

If that's the case, I would have rather they just traded down in the draft. I personally think Alphonso Smith will bust. JMHO.

He had pretty good form on those 14 tackles. 9 of which were solo! So lets give him some time!

I dont buy the monetary argument. We had a whole freakin year to trade back, down or for another player.

We were honky rich with draft picks and thought with our weiners and not our brains.

silkamilkamonico
03-04-2010, 01:43 PM
Anyone remember Brandon Marshall's rookie year? He turned out pretty good. I know he was a fourth round pick, but my point is give a guy more than one season before you call him a dud or bust.

I agree with this, but IIRC Smith was beat out on the depth chart by undrafted rookie free agent Tony Carter by the end of the year, and that isn't very reassuring in the least.

I can't remember if there were injury issues after the top 2 depth chart, but Denver signing Ty Law at the halfway point pretty much told me they felt they had nothing at CB after Goodman.

CoachChaz
03-04-2010, 01:58 PM
It was a terrible gamble to trade an unknown number one pick for a player in the 2nd round.

It is irrelevnat how good Smith turns out because It was a stupid decision.

If McDaniels truly liked smith that much he would have taken him at 12, or 18.

There is absolutely no logic in that statement. Let's say our 2 biggest needs this year are OG and NT. And let's say we had 2 1st rounders this year and next year. We draft Mike Iupati and Dan Williams. We'd also like to find a ILB for the future and in the second round we notice that Weatherspoon hasnt been selected yet. Guy has first round talent, but he's on the short side. Do you pass on him because MAYBE there is a different guy next year that might be better?

T.K.O.
03-04-2010, 02:04 PM
According to USA today NFL Salaries:

http://content.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playersbyposition.aspx?pos=144

With Cutlers signing bonus he was the second highest paid QB in the NFL in 2009:
Base: $ 14,944,090
Bonus 7,000,000

Total $ 22,044,090



Ortons salary with bonus....$ 1,095,000.

I think it's safe to say that Cutler's agent is brilliant and the Bears are stuck with a base of almost $ 15,000,000 regardless if he shows improvement or not.

Thats almost a million dollars per interception !

claymore
03-04-2010, 02:14 PM
There is absolutely no logic in that statement. Let's say our 2 biggest needs this year are OG and NT. And let's say we had 2 1st rounders this year and next year. We draft Mike Iupati and Dan Williams. We'd also like to find a ILB for the future and in the second round we notice that Weatherspoon hasnt been selected yet. Guy has first round talent, but he's on the short side. Do you pass on him because MAYBE there is a different guy next year that might be better?

Trading an unknown #1 pick for a 2nd rounder makes no sense. I cant get any clearer than that.

I wouldnt trade tomorrows dollar for 50 cents today. And I wouldnt trade next years 1st for a second round pick regardless of who slipped thru the cracks.

T.K.O.
03-04-2010, 02:18 PM
Trading an unknown #1 pick for a 2nd rounder makes no sense. I cant get any clearer than that.

I wouldnt trade tomorrows dollar for 50 cents today. And I wouldnt trade next years 1st for a second round pick regardless of who slipped thru the cracks.

unless you knew it would would be virtually impossible to sign two #1's in an uncapped year and wanted to lock up some potentially 1st round talent at a bargain price.

claymore
03-04-2010, 02:20 PM
unless you knew it would would be virtually impossible to sign two #1's in an uncapped year and wanted to lock up some potentially 1st round talent at a bargain price.

If money was the issue then we go back to the Cutler trade being retarded. If they cant afford 2 Number ones then you trade for 3 number 2's etc... or something you can afford.

If we really did it because of the money our front office blows ass, and they have zero foresight.

T.K.O.
03-04-2010, 02:23 PM
but at least they didnt pay cutler 23 mil for a 7-9 year:laugh:

broncophan
03-04-2010, 02:26 PM
I still think the Bears got the best end of the deal. We could end up with nothing out of it. We certainly didn't make out like Bandits. People over exaggerate the one season of 20+ INTs. All QBs have had them, even the greatest that have played. Jay is a game changer.

Although..thye just hired an OC that is going to kill that team. The OC that doesn't care about INTs, and kills every offense he's coached that didn't have Warner.

"Jay is a game changer"????????........is that meant to be a positive thought or a negative???.........not just last season, but previous seasons......his int's in the red zone sure "changed" alot of games............

Too early to tell who got the better end of the trade....after one season.....I would say the broncos though.....

CoachChaz
03-04-2010, 02:30 PM
Trading an unknown #1 pick for a 2nd rounder makes no sense. I cant get any clearer than that.

I wouldnt trade tomorrows dollar for 50 cents today. And I wouldnt trade next years 1st for a second round pick regardless of who slipped thru the cracks.

...and you would fail as a GM because you cant always go with the "safe play". The added element is Bowlen even wanting two first rounders this years. With the CBA expiring and a pending lockout...why draft two guys in the first and lock-up a ton of money considering the current state of things? Doesnt make sense from a business point of view.

You have to look at all possibilities and make an educated decision regardless of it failing in the long term or not. If Smith were to someday become a perrenial Pro-Bowl DB...me and most fans would consider the deal a good one. You will still chosse to call it stupid. Not because they gave away a future first...but because it fuels your hatred for change.

claymore
03-04-2010, 02:31 PM
but at least they didnt pay cutler 23 mil for a 7-9 year:laugh:Im more concerned with the 12 million plus Bailey will make this year.

claymore
03-04-2010, 02:36 PM
...and you would fail as a GM because you cant always go with the "safe play". The added element is Bowlen even wanting two first rounders this years. With the CBA expiring and a pending lockout...why draft two guys in the first and lock-up a ton of money considering the current state of things? Doesnt make sense from a business point of view.

You have to look at all possibilities and make an educated decision regardless of it failing in the long term or not. If Smith were to someday become a perrenial Pro-Bowl DB...me and most fans would consider the deal a good one. You will still chosse to call it stupid. Not because they gave away a future first...but because it fuels your hatred for change.
What we did was a blind gamble on a player no one but us thought was worth a 1st round pick.

If money was an issue because of the Cutler trade, its just another example of poor leadership from the front office.

T.K.O.
03-04-2010, 02:37 PM
Im more concerned with the 12 million plus Bailey will make this year.

nope....he won't not in denver or anywhere else.
i have no doubt they are working that # down as we speak.

claymore
03-04-2010, 02:40 PM
nope....he won't not in denver or anywhere else.
i have no doubt they are working that # down as we speak.

I hope so. Let Smith take his spot if need be.

Ravage!!!
03-04-2010, 02:41 PM
nope....he won't not in denver or anywhere else.
i have no doubt they are working that # down as we speak.

So how do you see it coming? Bailey just giving away his money, or us deferring the money into guaranteed signing bonus for a longer contract? Champ isn't simply going to give away 12 million he is owed.

Denver Native (Carol)
03-04-2010, 02:57 PM
His agent is a real basturd. I might like him less than McDaniels. :mad:

I'm quite sure that Cutler does not share your opinion in regards to his agent - his agent got his boy exactly what he wanted - $$$$$$$$

Northman
03-04-2010, 03:02 PM
I have several Bear fans on a large site trying to spoon feed me via postings what appears to be misinformation regarding the Broncos. How would you all respond to this?.

My posting as follows:

The Bears gave up a serviceable QB who performed well in Denver+3 picks for a slight to moderate increase in raw talent that still needs development.
The Broncos made out like bandits.

Response as follows from Bear fan:

As for the Broncos making out like bandits. Sure they did. Orton sucked like always in the 2nd half when the Broncos D wasn't good anymore. Their first round pick they got from the Bears last year has been a ghost, they traded the 3rd round pick and they'll find a way to botch this years first round pick like they do every year with their first round picks.

:lol:


I would say both teams got equal value. Denver got compensated some good picks which in mind we screwed the pooch when we kept moving up for talent we could of gotten later in the draft. But, staying on point the Bears have a young QB who will be in his second season with the club and "should" improve as long as they work on the Oline and learn to use the RB more than they did last year.

As for Denver, we have a servicable QB but need to make up our minds which system were going to use with our own Oline which includes getting both lines offense and defense where they need to be. But, Denver is not going to have 10 more years to accomplish this and the Bears need to show vast improvement also as expectations were much higher for the Bears. Both clubs have a lot to prove this upcoming year in my opinion.

Ravage!!!
03-04-2010, 03:15 PM
I would say both teams got equal value. Denver got compensated some good picks which in mind we screwed the pooch when we kept moving up for talent we could of gotten later in the draft. But, staying on point the Bears have a young QB who will be in his second season with the club and "should" improve as long as they work on the Oline and learn to use the RB more than they did last year.

As for Denver, we have a servicable QB but need to make up our minds which system were going to use with our own Oline which includes getting both lines offense and defense where they need to be. But, Denver is not going to have 10 more years to accomplish this and the Bears need to show vast improvement also as expectations were much higher for the Bears. Both clubs have a lot to prove this upcoming year in my opinion.

Second year in the city, but now with Martz. Whom I believe will absolutely ruin the offense. Martz's offense is bad, and just will not work with what they have. The Bears really screwed the pooch by not going after a new HC that was available.

Northman
03-04-2010, 03:18 PM
Second year in the city, but now with Martz. Whom I believe will absolutely ruin the offense. Martz's offense is bad, and just will not work with what they have. The Bears really screwed the pooch by not going after a new HC that was available.

I have my doubts as well. Was listening to Mike and Mike this morning and they were stating that Martz very rarely uses TE's in his system and considering that Olsen was a big target for Jay im not sure what that means for the offense. They arent ready to be the greatest show on grass anytime soon.

Ravage!!!
03-04-2010, 03:34 PM
I have my doubts as well. Was listening to Mike and Mike this morning and they were stating that Martz very rarely uses TE's in his system and considering that Olsen was a big target for Jay im not sure what that means for the offense. They arent ready to be the greatest show on grass anytime soon.

Martz's system has failed with every team, every franchise, and every QB he has tried to coach after Warner. He didn't even know how to use one of the most dynamic runners in Football, Marshall Faulk, when he was a part of Martz's team. Martz is terrible... and when Chicago is hoping to get return on a QB they have traded for, they just made the biggest mistake to get that return. The only thing they are going to accomplish, is putting MORE passes on Cutler's shoulders.

Terrible signing. Maybe Martz will have higher expectations for his WRs to learn how to run routes. He was pretty critical of them when talking about them during the season.

Thnikkaman
03-04-2010, 03:48 PM
Post a big picture of a cow pie since that mirrors their opinion.

claymore
03-04-2010, 03:53 PM
I'm quite sure that Cutler does not share your opinion in regards to his agent - his agent got his boy exactly what he wanted - $$$$$$$$

I would love him too! :D

arapaho2
03-04-2010, 04:08 PM
I have no doubt that this contributed, but I don't think its an either/or situation. This offense sucks and Moreno is a dud - both can be true at the same time.


wrong..moreno was running behind a oline built for the zone blocking scheme...blocking in a traditional power block scheme...with an interior undersized for it..he also did an large amount of attempts between the tackles...without a legit FB or lead blocker..behind that undersized interior
it was also compounded by the shallow offense...where noone respected our deep ball and stacked the line

the vast majority of his carries were in a traditional single back formation followed by a single back in shotgun...neither formation had the ability to open holes inside the tackles with our smaller oline in a power scheme

a lot of his carries he was met by a linebacker filling a hole...because we didnt use the very talented blocking fb we have..hillis

its not as simple as moreno is a bum

Ravage!!!
03-04-2010, 04:53 PM
although I don't think Moreno a bum... I was pretty disappointed in what I saw on the field (and not just looking at the numbers).

After all the hype on the kid, I was expecting to see someone explosive. I didn't. I was looking for a 'wow' moment... it never came. I was looking for that ONE moment that made me go "Thats why we drafted him over the defensive needs!!" I never saw it. Not once.

So this year, we are back with square one with Moreno. Hoping he proves his 1st round pick. Of course I want to see it, but instead of looking at him with high-hopes like I did after the draft last year, my expectations are lowered. Maybe thats good, but with a 1st round pick you would hope you wouldn't have to lower your expectations to meet reality.

arapaho2
03-04-2010, 05:01 PM
although I don't think Moreno a bum... I was pretty disappointed in what I saw on the field (and not just looking at the numbers).

After all the hype on the kid, I was expecting to see someone explosive. I didn't. I was looking for a 'wow' moment... it never came. I was looking for that ONE moment that made me go "Thats why we drafted him over the defensive needs!!" I never saw it. Not once.

So this year, we are back with square one with Moreno. Hoping he proves his 1st round pick. Of course I want to see it, but instead of looking at him with high-hopes like I did after the draft last year, my expectations are lowered. Maybe thats good, but with a 1st round pick you would hope you wouldn't have to lower your expectations to meet reality.

i agrree with that...never seen the ohhh factor...we seen it with cutler..we seen it with marshall...with TD..with portis...

thats why i stll am disappointed we didnt go orakpo in that pick...orakpo and doom as bookends...lights out

a back with average speed coulda been had later

but im just not calling him a bum

Ravage!!!
03-04-2010, 05:02 PM
i agrree with that...never seen the ohhh factor...we seen it with cutler..we seen it with marshall...with TD..with portis...

thats why i stll am disappointed we didnt go orakpo in that pick...orakpo and doom as bookends...lights out

a back with average speed coulda been had later

but im just not calling him a bum

Agreed. That will come if he has a repeat of this season :D

arapaho2
03-04-2010, 05:06 PM
Agreed. That will come if he has a repeat of this season :D


yea if we fix the grade the oline into a PB lineman...run some occassional deep plays...and he still hasnt shown more then average abilities


then MCDs entire first draft was a complete bust

Buff
03-04-2010, 05:59 PM
...and you would fail as a GM because you cant always go with the "safe play". The added element is Bowlen even wanting two first rounders this years. With the CBA expiring and a pending lockout...why draft two guys in the first and lock-up a ton of money considering the current state of things? Doesnt make sense from a business point of view.

You have to look at all possibilities and make an educated decision regardless of it failing in the long term or not. If Smith were to someday become a perrenial Pro-Bowl DB...me and most fans would consider the deal a good one. You will still chosse to call it stupid. Not because they gave away a future first...but because it fuels your hatred for change.

Don't get me wrong, I think Clay has been the poster boy for irrational arguments for much of the last six months... But I buy his argument here. It just doesn't make good sense to trade a 1st rounder for a 2nd rounder in 99% of all cases, no matter who the target is.

When you start to look at some of the specifics of this case, it looks even dumber in hindsight. We traded the #37 pick for the #14 pick straight up for an undersized CB. Conventional wisdom at the time said we'd end up with a Top 15 pick (bottom 15 finish) and conventional wisdom ended up being correct--it's not like we were banking on a run deep into the playoffs and a 25-32 draft slot. Luckily our bet paid off to give them our pick instead of Chicago's, but it still doesn't excuse not making the pick conditional.

And, if anything, the CBA expiring is more fuel for our side of the argument. There is no salary cap, why wouldn't we want more 1st rounders in this year's draft? I think it's more of a moot point than anything, but it definitely doesn't support your argument.

topscribe
03-04-2010, 06:04 PM
although I don't think Moreno a bum... I was pretty disappointed in what I saw on the field (and not just looking at the numbers).

After all the hype on the kid, I was expecting to see someone explosive. I didn't. I was looking for a 'wow' moment... it never came. I was looking for that ONE moment that made me go "Thats why we drafted him over the defensive needs!!" I never saw it. Not once.

So this year, we are back with square one with Moreno. Hoping he proves his 1st round pick. Of course I want to see it, but instead of looking at him with high-hopes like I did after the draft last year, my expectations are lowered. Maybe thats good, but with a 1st round pick you would hope you wouldn't have to lower your expectations to meet reality.

Your post makes sense if it turns out that way. I'm always willing to give rookies
the benefit of the doubt, however. I have seen many rookies come in and put
out pedestrian performances in their first year, then crescendo after that.

I hope you are wrong about Moreno. But then, I know you hope so, too . . .

-----

Biz1
03-04-2010, 06:05 PM
Martz's system has failed with every team, every franchise, and every QB he has tried to coach after Warner. He didn't even know how to use one of the most dynamic runners in Football, Marshall Faulk, when he was a part of Martz's team. Martz is terrible... and when Chicago is hoping to get return on a QB they have traded for, they just made the biggest mistake to get that return. The only thing they are going to accomplish, is putting MORE passes on Cutler's shoulders.

Terrible signing. Maybe Martz will have higher expectations for his WRs to learn how to run routes. He was pretty critical of them when talking about them during the season.

Ouch!

Dreadnought
03-04-2010, 06:08 PM
although I don't think Moreno a bum... I was pretty disappointed in what I saw on the field (and not just looking at the numbers).

After all the hype on the kid, I was expecting to see someone explosive. I didn't. I was looking for a 'wow' moment... it never came. I was looking for that ONE moment that made me go "Thats why we drafted him over the defensive needs!!" I never saw it. Not once.

So this year, we are back with square one with Moreno. Hoping he proves his 1st round pick. Of course I want to see it, but instead of looking at him with high-hopes like I did after the draft last year, my expectations are lowered. Maybe thats good, but with a 1st round pick you would hope you wouldn't have to lower your expectations to meet reality.

Exactly - I saw more in 2008 from Tatum Bell and Selvin-friggin-Young than this guy any time last year. True enough holes were too often stuffed - and Moreno showed zero ability to then improvise or make something out of nothing. If that run was scheduled to go go off Right Tackle, then begad that run was going off Right Tackle, come Hell or High water. Buckhalter by contrast often looked superb behind this very same supposedly screwed up and disoriented line. The difference in our offense was marked.

yardog
03-04-2010, 06:12 PM
Don't get me wrong, I think Clay has been the poster boy for irrational arguments for much of the last six months... But I buy his argument here. It just doesn't make good sense to trade a 1st rounder for a 2nd rounder in 99% of all cases, no matter who the target is.

When you start to look at some of the specifics of this case, it looks even dumber in hindsight. We traded the #37 pick for the #14 pick straight up for an undersized CB. Conventional wisdom at the time said we'd end up with a Top 15 pick (bottom 15 finish) and conventional wisdom ended up being correct--it's not like we were banking on a run deep into the playoffs and a 25-32 draft slot. Luckily our bet paid off to give them our pick instead of Chicago's, but it still doesn't excuse not making the pick conditional.

And, if anything, the CBA expiring is more fuel for our side of the argument. There is no salary cap, why wouldn't we want more 1st rounders in this year's draft? I think it's more of a moot point than anything, but it definitely doesn't support your argument.

I think there is to draw backs to multi #1 picks this year.

1. There more than likely will be a rookie pay scale in the new agreement ending all these outrageous contracts these rookies get.

2. Would be the guaranteed money the Broncos would give the two #1s if there is a work stoppage.

All of this said I still agree with Clay we gave up a #1 pick for an undersized nickel back. I just don't see it as a good move. When we could have traded back this year and helped our team.

topscribe
03-04-2010, 06:13 PM
Exactly - I saw more in 2008 from Tatum Bell and Selvin-friggin-Young than this guy any time last year. True enough holes were too often stuffed - and Moreno showed zero ability to then improvise or make something out of nothing. If that run was scheduled to go go off Right Tackle, then begad that run was going off Right Tackle, come Hell or High water. Buckhalter by contrast often looked superb behind this very same supposedly screwed up and disoriented line. The difference in our offense was marked.

You know, you have a point there. After Tater performed like he did -- especially
coming into the middle of the season rusty and out of shape -- they put him
out to pasture and drafted a RB. I've had a hard time with that . . .:confused:

-----

T.K.O.
03-04-2010, 07:30 PM
So how do you see it coming? Bailey just giving away his money, or us deferring the money into guaranteed signing bonus for a longer contract? Champ isn't simply going to give away 12 million he is owed.

uhhh... yeah if the team says they will release him and he is smart enough to know he wont get a long term deal from another team with the lack of cba and his age factored in.
i think he would be more than happy to restructure his deal for say 4 more years at 3-5 mil and he would be able to move to safety when dawk hangs up his cleats after next year

broken12
03-04-2010, 09:38 PM
moreno in this years draft would be a second round pick imo! cutler first round pick! and for sure the first qb! going offense that early last year was reaching to take away the sting of losing an offensive star! would have rather drafted a dlineman or a safety early last year and gotten a rb this year in this draft!

Lonestar
03-05-2010, 12:42 AM
FWIW I have not read any postings here but will bet the Orton haters have come out in droves to boast how great jay will be even though he sucked last year.

As for eh draft choose we got for him.

Ayers was a conversion for hand int eh dirt DE to OLB something that will take time to adjust to.

Next year providing there is not a sophomore slump he should be heads above where he was this past year.

Smith did not up to my expectations, BUT then few CB's come in and start in their rookie year. In fact many do not for years.

As for Orton Josh seems to feel like he will make a great leap next year after the offseason watching film and hitting the weight room.




He will never have jays arm, but then jay will never have Ortons head.

This trade will be better looked at again in two years. I think we will have some promising young players and they will have 2 less #1's and jay who is what they had this past year. Jeff George Reincarnate.

JDL
03-05-2010, 02:00 AM
I have several Bear fans on a large site trying to spoon feed me via postings what appears to be misinformation regarding the Broncos. How would you all respond to this?.

My posting as follows:

The Bears gave up a serviceable QB who performed well in Denver+3 picks for a slight to moderate increase in raw talent that still needs development.
The Broncos made out like bandits.

Response as follows from Bear fan:

As for the Broncos making out like bandits. Sure they did. Orton sucked like always in the 2nd half when the Broncos D wasn't good anymore. Their first round pick they got from the Bears last year has been a ghost, they traded the 3rd round pick and they'll find a way to botch this years first round pick like they do every year with their first round picks.

:lol:

What he said wasn't totally inaccurate.

From a value (pre-result) standpoint the Broncos did very well getting value for Cutler.

From a real world result/impact .... Orton will be replaced before long as the starter (nice player but the picks were the real value.) It does not appear Denver will be getting great value out of those picks at this time... but things can change. On Chicago's end, Cutler regressed badly... and was maddeningly unleader-like.

Ultimately, I really believe the trade will be underwhelming for both teams and probably lesser in actual impact than if both teams had just kept their pieces of the trade.

JDL
03-05-2010, 02:05 AM
I don't think a draft can be judged after one season. You may end up being correct, but it's too early to tell.

Well, not final judgment... but you better damn well evaluate players after every season rookie or not...

Moreno regressed as the year progressed and seemingly got more confused (could just be dead legs though.)

Ayers never really made an impact despite increased playing time.

Smith was awful, downright horrible and we had to sign an over the hill DB and a street fa to play because he was so terrible.

I mean, it is hard to say that is heading in the right direction, but hey, Pryce looked lost his first season, barely got on the field. Still, that's not what you want to see from young players, you want to see improvement and increased confidence, we saw the opposite... simply discouraging.

Northman
03-05-2010, 06:09 AM
uhhh... yeah if the team says they will release him and he is smart enough to know he wont get a long term deal from another team with the lack of cba and his age factored in.
i think he would be more than happy to restructure his deal for say 4 more years at 3-5 mil and he would be able to move to safety when dawk hangs up his cleats after next year

Dont count on it. Most gifted players late in their careers want one final payday to set them up for retirement (See Ray Lewis). So while Champ most likely has a little bit left in the tank i just dont see him restructering as this team is nowhere close to a title shot. The clock is ticking for him and he knows he still has a lot of value so he wont undercut himself with the situation the way it is right now.

Dreadnought
03-05-2010, 09:18 AM
FWIW I have not read any postings here but will bet the Orton haters have come out in droves to boast how great jay will be even though he sucked last year.

As for eh draft choose we got for him.

Ayers was a conversion for hand int eh dirt DE to OLB something that will take time to adjust to.

Next year providing there is not a sophomore slump he should be heads above where he was this past year.

Smith did not up to my expectations, BUT then few CB's come in and start in their rookie year. In fact many do not for years.

As for Orton Josh seems to feel like he will make a great leap next year after the offseason watching film and hitting the weight room.




He will never have jays arm, but then jay will never have Ortons head.

This trade will be better looked at again in two years. I think we will have some promising young players and they will have 2 less #1's and jay who is what they had this past year. Jeff George Reincarnate.


To my knowledge yours was virtually the first post to reference Kyle Orton one way or another. Seems like you are obsessed or something :D

Ravage!!!
03-05-2010, 11:51 AM
uhhh... yeah if the team says they will release him and he is smart enough to know he wont get a long term deal from another team with the lack of cba and his age factored in.
i think he would be more than happy to restructure his deal for say 4 more years at 3-5 mil and he would be able to move to safety when dawk hangs up his cleats after next year

Really? just more than happy to give up 12 million guaranteed, huh? YOu really believe this?

If he restructures...he's going to be sure to get that 12 million SOME how from the Broncos. Champ doesn't see that 12 million as money for FUTURE play, but for addition to play he's already played. You can't simply expect him to "gladly" forfeit 12 million... GUARANTEED, money. Plus, you assume he is just THRILLED at the idea of moving to safety.

Your 4 year contract isn't guaranteed. Champ would be absolutely stupid to make your deal without making that money up in signing bonus. If he signs that deal you mentioned, with a 12 million dollar signing bonus, then it makes sense. It gives him his money, and it spreads out the 12 million over 4 years.

Think Dallas would be willing to give Champ 12 million signing bonus for 4 years to go there?

topscribe
03-05-2010, 11:57 AM
To my knowledge yours was virtually the first post to reference Kyle Orton one way or another. Seems like you are obsessed or something :D

The OP referenced Orton. So if it took 76 pages to respond to it, I would think maybe it was overdue . . .

-----

Dreadnought
03-05-2010, 01:30 PM
The OP referenced Orton. So if it took 76 pages to respond to it, I would think maybe it was overdue . . .

-----

Only indirectly as part of a larger equation. The conversation has been on a different tack. As for the answer to the OP I would say this.

1) I didn't want to trade JC
2) Once the determination to get rid of him was made I think we got a good price. It was a good trade for both clubs.
3) I think however that we then flubbed away any and all advantages of a pretty decent trade through bad picks and questionable personnel decisions, which is what we've been talking here for the most part. I still kind of like the Ayers pick - and have some hopes there, but the picks of Moreno, Smith, and Quinn were in context decisions that ranged from bad to terrible IMO.

Poet
03-05-2010, 01:36 PM
Only indirectly as part of a larger equation. The conversation has been on a different tack. As for the answer to the OP I would say this.

1) I didn't want to trade JC
2) Once the determination to get rid of him was made I think we got a good price. It was a good trade for both clubs.
3) I think however that we then flubbed away any and all advantages of a pretty decent trade through bad picks and questionable personnel decisions, which is what we've been talking here for the most part. I still kind of like the Ayers pick - and have some hopes there, but the picks of Moreno, Smith, and Quinn were in context decisions that ranged from bad to terrible IMO.

That's a good response.

1. I think that it reached a boiling point where JC had to be traded. At what point and who exactly did it are speculative (I have my opinion on both).
2. I think the Bears overpaid. They've never had a good QB in their damn history and they jumped the gun on a guy who had good but not great numbers across the board.
3. I think that you can't judge a draft this early. Personally I thought that the Moreno pick was fine, the Ayers pick was pretty good in a vacuum and that Smith was the second rated CB so it wasn't a bad move to secure him.

topscribe
03-05-2010, 07:02 PM
Only indirectly as part of a larger equation. The conversation has been on a different tack. As for the answer to the OP I would say this.

1) I didn't want to trade JC
2) Once the determination to get rid of him was made I think we got a good price. It was a good trade for both clubs.
3) I think however that we then flubbed away any and all advantages of a pretty decent trade through bad picks and questionable personnel decisions, which is what we've been talking here for the most part. I still kind of like the Ayers pick - and have some hopes there, but the picks of Moreno, Smith, and Quinn were in context decisions that ranged from bad to terrible IMO.

I still have hopes for Moreno, but I scratch my head over Smith and Quinn. But
in judging the players themselves, I prefer to wait a year or two before I make
a final judgment in my own mind. I have seen too many pedestrian rookie
years turn into stellar careers.

-----

broncobryce
03-05-2010, 07:25 PM
although I don't think Moreno a bum... I was pretty disappointed in what I saw on the field (and not just looking at the numbers).

After all the hype on the kid, I was expecting to see someone explosive. I didn't. I was looking for a 'wow' moment... it never came. I was looking for that ONE moment that made me go "Thats why we drafted him over the defensive needs!!" I never saw it. Not once.

So this year, we are back with square one with Moreno. Hoping he proves his 1st round pick. Of course I want to see it, but instead of looking at him with high-hopes like I did after the draft last year, my expectations are lowered. Maybe thats good, but with a 1st round pick you would hope you wouldn't have to lower your expectations to meet reality.

This didn't make you say 'wow' ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YRLfLAELdU

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broncobryce
03-05-2010, 07:28 PM
What am I doing wrong for that video?

tsiguy96
03-05-2010, 07:58 PM
I still think the Bears got the best end of the deal. We could end up with nothing out of it. We certainly didn't make out like Bandits. People over exaggerate the one season of 20+ INTs. All QBs have had them, even the greatest that have played. Jay is a game changer.

Although..thye just hired an OC that is going to kill that team. The OC that doesn't care about INTs, and kills every offense he's coached that didn't have Warner.

that he is! he certainly changed hte fortunes of a few games where it was close at the end...aka the 49ers game

silkamilkamonico
03-05-2010, 08:00 PM
What am I doing wrong for that video?

I'm not sure you can embed video's on this forum, usually it's a [youtube)[/youtube] tag.

LRtagger
03-05-2010, 08:24 PM
I'm not sure I understand some of the logic here.

Those that say we lost out on the trade because Ayers/Moreno/Smith didnt produce much for this team in their first season are the same ones who back Jay who didnt perform for his team in his FOURTH season.

Don't forget, Jay was a #11 pick and he didn't do much to make the Broncos or the Bears elite like many expect Moreno/Ayers/Smith to do.

I can agree that the Smith trade was questionable, but there was some logic behind it. Get him in here and let him learn behind two future HOF secondary vets. We need to see how it will turn out. If he turns into a solid starter for us because of an additional year learning from the best, then it was probably worth it.

Moreno and Ayers have endless talent and will get better. The same argument people make for Jay about other HOF QBs having bad seasons can be said for HOF RBs and LBs. We can probably compile a list of great pass rushers and running backs that had less than stellar rookie seasons.

I would say both teams are better off after the trade. Josh got the picks and extra players he wanted, so he feels he made out in the trade and the Bears got what they feel is the QB they can build around so they feel they made out.

I just don't understand how people can write off Moreno and Ayers after a single season, yet want to give Jay 4+ seasons to prove he can get better.

silkamilkamonico
03-05-2010, 08:38 PM
I'm not sure I understand some of the logic here.

Those that say we lost out on the trade because Ayers/Moreno/Smith didnt produce much for this team in their first season are the same ones who back Jay who didnt perform for his team in his FOURTH season.

Don't forget, Jay was a #11 pick and he didn't do much to make the Broncos or the Bears elite like many expect Moreno/Ayers/Smith to do.

I can agree that the Smith trade was questionable, but there was some logic behind it. Get him in here and let him learn behind two future HOF secondary vets. We need to see how it will turn out. If he turns into a solid starter for us because of an additional year learning from the best, then it was probably worth it.

Moreno and Ayers have endless talent and will get better. The same argument people make for Jay about other HOF QBs having bad seasons can be said for HOF RBs and LBs. We can probably compile a list of great pass rushers and running backs that had less than stellar rookie seasons.

I would say both teams are better off after the trade. Josh got the picks and extra players he wanted, so he feels he made out in the trade and the Bears got what they feel is the QB they can build around so they feel they made out.

I just don't understand how people can write off Moreno and Ayers after a single season, yet want to give Jay 4+ seasons to prove he can get better.

Jay Cutler has a stronger arm than John Elway. He'll be 40 years old, and people will be saying "give him time, he has all the intangibles".

Lonestar
03-06-2010, 10:55 AM
Unless the bears address geting oline and wr in FA they are gonna stink again.

Since. They do not have day one or this year day two picks. They are going be in DEEP DODO.


Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel

tsiguy96
03-06-2010, 11:10 AM
julius peppers got his money. he will get, at most, 5 sacks next year. a man who is known to take plays off and has been whining about his contract for years, you pay him 40 million dollars in 3 years? good luck with that chicago, what a waste of money.