Broncos won't commit to Orton beyond 2010

[turftoad]

Posted Feb. 19, 2010 @ 10:38 a.m.
By Dan Parr
The Broncos struck down reports that they are one of a few teams interested in trading for Eagles QB Donovan McNabb, but that doesn't mean they are committed to Kyle Orton as their long-term answer at quarterback, we hear. McNabb, who has played his entire career in the West Coast offense, would have to adjust to playing in a entirely different system run by head coach Josh McDaniels, and the Broncos would have to give up valuable draft picks to acquire him. He doesn't appear to be a good fit for Denver. Orton, after a strong start last season, declined down the stretch and there are questions about how long McDaniels will stick with him before he pursues a new signalcaller. Orton, who still had a solid showing overall in 2009 — he had a TD-INT ratio of 21-12 — will become a restricted free agent March 5, but the Broncos are expected to issue him a one-year tender.

This is great news IMO as I don't see him as the answer for the future.

[broncofaninfla]

Gives me more faith in the Broncos brass if this is true. I don't see Orton as the long term answer for the Broncos either. That can change if Mcd opens up the offense and Ortons executes in 2010 though.............

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Who is Dan Parr?

[turftoad]

Who is Dan Parr?

http://www.profootballweekly.com/2010/02/19/broncos-wont-commit-to-orton-beyond-2010

[MileHighCrew]

I'm glad they don't see Orton as the long term answer, but I would like to see who is the answer at this point.

[Northman]

Makes you do wonder though if they go after a QB this year.

[SOCALORADO.]

What many fail to point out is that DEN never were calling PHIL for McNabb. He has never ran a spread offense, and has played in a west coast offense his entire career, as the blurb points out. Its was Kolb, DEN was inquiring about.

[camdisco24]

What many fail to point out is that DEN never were calling PHIL for McNabb. He has never ran a spread offense, and has played in a west coast offense his entire career, as the blurb points out. Its was Kolb, DEN was inquiring about.

You would hope so! Kolb can be a long term answer, McNabb wouldnt. I personally, would hate to see McNabb in a Broncos uniform. And just like the article says, he wouldnt really fit in our offense. At this point in his career it'd be like teaching an old dog new tricks.

[T.K.O.]

sounds like mcD has his eye on a qb in the draft.
i dont know if either bradford or clausen will be there with our 2nd pick (unless we are already planning on a marshall trade).
might get lefevour though.and have orton start one more season to groom the noob.
it could very well be that mcD wants orton around for 3-4 years but it seems that the owners are playing hardball and just dont want to give contracts through 2011 unless they have no choice.

[yardog]

I've seen all of Orton I care to see already. :tsk:

[T.K.O.]

I've seen all of Orton I care to see already. :tsk:

yeah 3800 yds and a 21-12 td/int ratio while playing injured for 1/2 his games ,all the while learning a new system....what a loser.

we shoulda started simms or branstater:laugh:

hey,on a positive note....that quote in your sig is awesome.it makes me think of my dad whenever i read it,although he was a dick most of the time i still love him and like to think of him that way.r.i.p. pops

[yardog]

yeah 3800 yds and a 21-12 td/int ratio while playing injured for 1/2 his games ,all the while learning a new system....what a loser.

we shoulda started simms or branstater:laugh:

hey,on a positive note....that quote in your sig is awesome.it makes me think of my dad whenever i read it,although he was a dick most of the time i still love him and like to think of him that way.r.i.p. pops

Thank you. I think the times our fathers grew up in just created a rougher persona than us but underneath it all our feelings are the same.

I would have started Branstater over Orton but thats just me I guess.

[topscribe]

yeah 3800 yds and a 21-12 td/int ratio while playing injured for 1/2 his games ,all the while learning a new system....what a loser.

we shoulda started simms or branstater:laugh:

hey,on a positive note....that quote in your sig is awesome.it makes me think of my dad whenever i read it,although he was a dick most of the time i still love him and like to think of him that way.r.i.p. pops

More like 75% of his games. The last ½ of the season on a high ankle sprain and
the first few games with a compound dislocation of the index finger on his
throwing hand.

It is no secret I have supported Orton. But I am a bigger fan of his now than I
was before the season started . . .

-----

[SR]

yeah 3800 yds and a 21-12 td/int ratio while playing injured for 1/2 his games ,all the while learning a new system....what a loser.

we shoulda started simms or branstater:laugh:


Orton was boring as hell. He took minimal risk and played not to lose. His starts are a result of being uber careful with the football and not taking chances when he should have. He made stupid throws, sucks at audibles, and doesn't have the talent it takes to take a team to the promise land. Yeah, we should have started Brandstater. At least then we would have invested something in someone. We have no investment in Orton at all.

[tsiguy96]

Orton was boring as hell. He took minimal risk and played not to lose. His starts are a result of being uber careful with the football and not taking chances when he should have. He made stupid throws, sucks at audibles, and doesn't have the talent it takes to take a team to the promise land. Yeah, we should have started Brandstater. At least then we would have invested something in someone. We have no investment in Orton at all.

youre football knowledge shines in this post.

[SOCALORADO.]

You would hope so! Kolb can be a long term answer, McNabb wouldnt. I personally, would hate to see McNabb in a Broncos uniform. And just like the article says, he wouldnt really fit in our offense. At this point in his career it'd be like teaching an old dog new tricks.

Kolb ran the spread at HOU, and was very successful. He threw for a ton of yards, and is the proto-typical QB that MCD likes.
Kolb was drafted 36th i think 2 years ago, in the 2nd round, and is still young.
I have no doubt that either MCD inquired about Kolb and was told to pound sand, or he inquired about Kolb and he has a deal in the works.
Before you say "no way". I think alot of folks jump to conclusions on Reid and dont realize how tied at the waist he is to McNabb. He drafted him, he is going to play, win or lose, with him, and he will eventually leave(or be fired) with Mcnabb.
I could see this being Reid and McNabbs last year in PHIL, and both of them on another team still together, coaching and playing after this year or the following year. If Reid is going to win a SB, it will be with Mcnabb, and i think he has a 1-2 year window to do it, and then thats it in PHIL. I also thinks its much more mutual than many think, about Reid leaving PHIL. I think the guy can only take maybe 1-2 more years there, and he wont mind just moving on, knowing theres another place to coach out there.

[Broncolingus]

Nothing surprising here...

I like Orton's attitude, and it seems the players like him too, but don't see him as 'the' QB for the Bronco's long term...that said, I'd have no trouble with him as a backup here.

Interesting to see what Joshy McD does in the draft...

...that'll tell the 'how long' we can expect Orton to be #1 behind the center.

Thx for the read, Turf...

[CoachChaz]

I think Orton still has more to prove and I think he's capable of doing so. If he has a really good 2010 season, I can see Denver keeping him longer. His 2009 wasnt horrible by any means. Yes, he played safe and basic, but I kind of expected that considering the change and situation.

But to say that a 6th round rookie with minimal upside should have started over him is borderline retarded. Brandstater will NEVER be anything in the NFL.

[SR]

youre football knowledge shines in this post.

Your spelling and grammar shine in that one.

[SOCALORADO.]

I think Orton still has more to prove and I think he's capable of doing so. If he has a really good 2010 season, I can see Denver keeping him longer. His 2009 wasnt horrible by any means. Yes, he played safe and basic, but I kind of expected that considering the change and situation.

But to say that a 6th round rookie with minimal upside should have started over him is borderline retarded. Brandstater will NEVER be anything in the NFL.

Unfortunately i think Chaz is correct in regards to Brandstater. As much as i wanted the kid to succeed, MCDs recent moves seem to indicate otherwise.
I think Tom is a career back-up.

[Timmy!]

Upgrade the O-line, open up the playbook a bit and let's see how Orton does. I think he was adequate last year, he's pretty good when given time, but below average if he has to scramble. Considering he was playing hurt 1/2 the year with a rookie head coach etc etc his numbers are decent. Funny how nobody mentions that 8-8 was above 90% of people's expectations. For as much blame as everybody wants to put on Orton and credit the defense, the defense sure played like horse shit the last 1/4 of the season, but they and Nolan get all the credit for any win.

I'm not sure if Orton is the long term answer, but I'd like to see what he can do when healthy and with better circumstances. If he lights it up, awesome. If he's average, then the Broncos can look elsewhere. IMO, tender him high and give him 2010 to sink or swim.

[CoachChaz]

Timmy sums it all up. Cant really say it much better than that

[arapaho2]

Orton was boring as hell. He took minimal risk and played not to lose. His starts are a result of being uber careful with the football and not taking chances when he should have. He made stupid throws, sucks at audibles, and doesn't have the talent it takes to take a team to the promise land. Yeah, we should have started Brandstater. At least then we would have invested something in someone. We have no investment in Orton at all.


someday your gonna break outa that shell and really tell us what you feel:D

[topscribe]

I think Orton still has more to prove and I think he's capable of doing so. If he has a really good 2010 season, I can see Denver keeping him longer. His 2009 wasnt horrible by any means. Yes, he played safe and basic, but I kind of expected that considering the change and situation.

But to say that a 6th round rookie with minimal upside should have started over him is borderline retarded. Brandstater will NEVER be anything in the NFL.

Let's not forget, Coach, Tom Brady was a 6th rounder and regarded to have
little upside. Not to say Brandstater is another Brady, but just extending the
caveat to keep our minds open . . .

-----

[arapaho2]

I think Orton still has more to prove and I think he's capable of doing so. If he has a really good 2010 season, I can see Denver keeping him longer. His 2009 wasnt horrible by any means. Yes, he played safe and basic, but I kind of expected that considering the change and situation.

But to say that a 6th round rookie with minimal upside should have started over him is borderline retarded. Brandstater will NEVER be anything in the NFL.


i imagine the yahoos who passed on brady until the 6th all thought that same...or the people who passed on warner...he was bagging grocerys

just saying...because he was drafted low means didly about if he can grow into a starting qb

[Poet]

Had you started Brandstater you would have gotten killed and half the fans here would have been screaming "PUT THE VETERAN QB IN SO WE HAVE A FIGHTING CHANCE."

[Buff]

It is no secret I have supported Orton. But I am a bigger fan of his now than I
was before the season started . . .

-----

Why? Was it because of his consistently mediocre play? Or that he injured the part of his body that we already had concerns about going into the season?

[Thnikkaman]

i imagine the yahoos who passed on brady until the 6th all thought that same...or the people who passed on warner...he was bagging grocerys

just saying...because he was drafted low means didly about if he can grow into a starting qb

For every Brady and Warner there are, how many no-name QBs are drafted in late rounds that do nothing?

[T.K.O.]

Why? Was it because of his consistently mediocre play? Or that he injured the part of his body that we already had concerns about going into the season?

or because he played smart and gave us a good chance to win as long as our defense did'nt give up record rushing yards and the rest of the team kept turnovers to a minimum ?
injuries happen....thats the breaks. but the guy showed alot of grit and played hurt....and we all saw what option #2 was when he did'nt play....emphasis on the #2;)

[turftoad]

or because he played smart and gave us a good chance to win as long as our defense did'nt give up record rushing yards and the rest of the team kept turnovers to a minimum ?
injuries happen....thats the breaks. but the guy showed alot of grit and played hurt....and we all saw what option #2 was when he did'nt play....emphasis on the #2;)

Yep................ a lot of grit cuz he's the only player thats ever played hurt before. :tsk:

[T.K.O.]

Yep................ a lot of grit cuz he's the only player thats ever played hurt before. :tsk:

yeah.....thats what i said.......not!
but thanx for yer 1 cents worth:tsk:

[Buff]

or because he played smart and gave us a good chance to win as long as our defense did'nt give up record rushing yards and the rest of the team kept turnovers to a minimum ?
injuries happen....thats the breaks. but the guy showed alot of grit and played hurt....and we all saw what option #2 was when he did'nt play....emphasis on the #2;)

Don't get me wrong, I think he's serviceable... But he is exactly what we thought he was.

The thing I didn't understand about Top's post was how he said he likes him more now than he did before the season. I don't think he did anything to improve my opinion of him this year, nor did he significantly hurt my opinion of him... He's exactly what I expected.

[Nomad]

Upgrade the O-line, open up the playbook a bit and let's see how Orton does. I think he was adequate last year, he's pretty good when given time, but below average if he has to scramble. Considering he was playing hurt 1/2 the year with a rookie head coach etc etc his numbers are decent. Funny how nobody mentions that 8-8 was above 90% of people's expectations. For as much blame as everybody wants to put on Orton and credit the defense, the defense sure played like horse shit the last 1/4 of the season, but they and Nolan get all the credit for any win.

I'm not sure if Orton is the long term answer, but I'd like to see what he can do when healthy and with better circumstances. If he lights it up, awesome. If he's average, then the Broncos can look elsewhere. IMO, tender him high and give him 2010 to sink or swim.

Right on man....good post! Orton has another year to prove himself and he has my support, but it doesnt mean I won't criticize him when he holds on to the ball too long and gets plowed or if he still runs in concrete shoes!!

[Italianmobstr7]

I'm copying and pasting my response to this from forums.denverbroncos.com. someone there posted this article, and I've got the same response...

No where in that article does it say that we won't commit to him long-term... It just says that we may offer him a one year tender this year. No one outside of the Broncos organization or Josh McDaniels knows what he's thinking about doing. Bowlen said he'd like to draft a quarterback so I'm sure we'll draft one, but that doesn't mean that Orton won't be the qb for another year or two. The title of your thread is completely false and very misleading.

That's what I wrote over there, and that's what I still feel. It doesn't say we won't commit to Orton beyond this year it just says that we're leaning towards giving him a 1 year tender this year. Honestly I don't care whether we do or not. If we draft a guy or trade for a better qb that's fine with me but this article does not state that the Denver Broncos refuse to commit to Orton beyond 2010, it's all just speculation at this point.

[T.K.O.]

I'm copying and pasting my response to this from forums.denverbroncos.com. someone there posted this article, and I've got the same response...

No where in that article does it say that we won't commit to him long-term... It just says that we may offer him a one year tender this year. No one outside of the Broncos organization or Josh McDaniels knows what he's thinking about doing. Bowlen said he'd like to draft a quarterback so I'm sure we'll draft one, but that doesn't mean that Orton won't be the qb for another year or two. The title of your thread is completely false and very misleading.

That's what I wrote over there, and that's what I still feel. It doesn't say we won't commit to Orton beyond this year it just says that we're leaning towards giving him a 1 year tender this year. Honestly I don't care whether we do or not. If we draft a guy or trade for a better qb that's fine with me but this article does not state that the Denver Broncos refuse to commit to Orton beyond 2010, it's all just speculation at this point.

nice ! i agree 100%
also it does not point to the FACT that most teams are doing all they can to stay away from any deal that could pay big bucks in 2011.
its just simple if you can keep guys that you want w/o extending....thats just what teams are going to do because of the lack of a new cba.
the biggest problem i see with this is the huge potential for "unhappy campers" stuck on the team next year...we could very well see alot of tc punting :laugh:

[SR]

yeah.....thats what i said.......not!
but thanx for yer 1 cents worth:tsk:

Are you 12? Jeebus.

[T.K.O.]

Are you 12? Jeebus.

did you read my post that garnered this response ?
i was just replying in kind .
and no i'm not 12...sorry. but we can still be friends:salute:

[broncophan]

Orton deserves more a multi-contract about as much as I do..........

I was o.k. with how he played last year.....but as others have said......sign him to one year.....and if he does well.....then give him another couple of years.

Come to think of it....we have not had a qb who was deserving of a muti-year contract since Mr. Elway......maybe Plummer......but no one else....

[Lonestar]

Stopped reading after a couple of posts so IF I repeat what someone else has we must agree on it.

I do not think this club in light of a looming lockout in 2011 is going to commit BIG bucks on anyone. Nothing in Guaranteed money that would have to be paid Even though there may no be a season.

That said Doom May see some deal but it would not be something he would see if there was a CBA n place.

They know what they have in Doom a great TEAM player that excels in sacks. and is learning the rest of the job at OLB.

Orton just has not had that same chance to break out like Doom did, he had more than teeing off at the QB to do.

I can see concerns about his ankles and long ball ability even though few if any long balls were called last year.

Beyond that I think the club is being prudent until these areas are addressed.

I read nothing into the article that some do that Josh is unhappy with him. IF he was he'd been cut by now like casey and jordan have been.

If they tender him a high RFA contract then someone would have to give us a first and a third and sign him to a long term contract.

It looks to me that the broncos are hedging their bets on him and others so far.

IF THE ARTICLE IS TRUE and not a WAG.

[T.K.O.]

I read nothing into the article that some do that Josh is unhappy with him. IF he was he'd been cut by now like casey and jordan have been.



IF THE ARTICLE IS TRUE and not a WAG.

does that mean he is happy with simms ?:eek:

[Lonestar]

Yep................ a lot of grit cuz he's the only player thats ever played hurt before. :tsk:


I know of NO QB that has played with a compound dislocated finger on his throwing hand, before the past season. Not missing any snaps while he could walk.

I've trying playing no high ankle sprain, was unable to perform for 3 weeks.

My daughter was hobbling along for a six months on one, played but was not near her normal self. Only after complete set of it over the summer did it not HURT LIKE hell, still bothers her to this day IF she does not warm up correctly.

[tsiguy96]

Your spelling and grammar shine in that one.

oh no! i didnt use punctuation, what ever shall i do?!?!

i think ill go cry about how bad orton and the broncos are! :lol:

[SR]

You actually used the wrong word all together. You should have used "your" and not "you're" which you actually spelled "youre", and that is actually incorrect. I'm just sayin'.

And for having a whopping 34 posts, you sure do know a lot about how I feel about the Broncos. Congrats for being a rocket surgeon.

[Lonestar]

nice ! i agree 100%
also it does not point to the FACT that most teams are doing all they can to stay away from any deal that could pay big bucks in 2011.
its just simple if you can keep guys that you want w/o extending....thats just what teams are going to do because of the lack of a new cba.
the biggest problem i see with this is the huge potential for "unhappy campers" stuck on the team next year...we could very well see alot of tc punting :laugh:



I agree with this post and let me add


The owners are using the RFA ploy to get the attention of about 200+ players in the league this year and those same guys plus another 150 or so next year.

They want to prove a point that they still own the clubs and they will not be run out of business.

They will get most if not all of their demands, Rookie contract cap limits, and a huge reduction in the Gross revenue % now it is at 60% IIRC and they are asking for 41%. I'll bet they settle about half way in-between near 52-53%.

They will have the support for the money issue from about 500 3-6 year guys, and almost all of the players on rookie caps. After all Rookies do not get a vote till after they have signed a contract. THEN it is moot them .

[Lonestar]

OK just saying FEW on here are correct in their grammar.
It is a message board and a usually intelligent one at that.

Lets ALL keep on the topic that being the Broncos..

[tsiguy96]

You actually used the wrong word all together. You should have used "your" and not "you're" which you actually spelled "youre", and that is actually incorrect. I'm just sayin'.

And for having a whopping 34 posts, you sure do know a lot about how I feel about the Broncos. Congrats for being a rocket surgeon.

few things...

what does being a rocket surgeon have to do with the broncos, or knowing how others feel about the broncos? do rockets really have "surgeons", or is "rocket scientist" the term you were looking for?

[Lonestar]

OK just saying FEW on here are correct in their grammar.
It is a message board and a usually intelligent one at that.

Lets ALL keep on the topic that being the Broncos..


lets get

:focus:

[e-Lou-sive1]

If the Broncos are only willing to offer Orton a contract for one year then they obiviously know something about him that isn't worth a longer investment.

Orton did have a finger injury in early in the season and a high ankle sprain against Washington yet he also had a deflection that went for a TD and Brandon snagged another one from a small cornerback against Dallas.Although he had 12 int's even some of those were ill advised throws at the line of scrimmage or in deep coverage.

I'm not sure how many times Orton tried to pound the ball in the endzone himself at point blank range or qb sneak the ball on 3rd/4th down and inches.Most qb's will take this opportunity against the wishes of the HC and begin to show more confidence and control of the offense.

I'm not sure what expectations people have of Orton and why Chicago had to offer other draft picks for him If they thought he had some hidden potential.I credit MCD for working with Orton and trying to squeeze anything out of him even If it meant implementing a fundamentally improvised playbook.Brandstrater didn't have enough experience and Simms was lucky be playing for anybody.

Hopefully keeping Orton for another year isn't a mistake since he does have bad habit of telegraphing where intends to throw the ball.If he is completely healthy at the start of the season and continues to make the same mistakes then the rest of us had a good reason to doubt his abilities If he doesn't start the season then McD didn't see anything different either and is willing to do what's best for the team.

[tsiguy96]

If the Broncos are only willing to offer Orton a contract for one year then they obiviously know something about him that isn't worth a longer investment.

Orton did have a finger injury in early in the season and a high ankle sprain against Washington yet he also had a deflection that went for a TD and Brandon snagged another one from a small cornerback against Dallas.Although he had 12 int's even some of those were ill advised throws at the line of scrimmage or in deep coverage.

I'm not sure how many times Orton tried to pound the ball in the endzone himself at point blank range or qb sneak the ball on 3rd/4th down and inches.Most qb's will take this opportunity against the wishes of the HC and begin to show more confidence and control of the offense.

I'm not sure what expectations people have of Orton and why Chicago had to offer other draft picks for him If they thought he had some hidden potential.I credit MCD for working with Orton and trying to squeeze anything out of him even If it meant implementing a fundamentally improvised playbook.Brandstrater didn't have enough experience and Simms was lucky be playing for anybody.

Hopefully keeping Orton for another year isn't a mistake since he does have bad habit of telegraphing where intends to throw the ball.If he is completely healthy at the start of the season and continues to make the same mistakes then the rest of us had a good reason to doubt his abilities If he doesn't start the season then McD didn't see anything different either and is willing to do what's best for the team.

not true.

also, every QB in the league gets bailed out on some what-should-be-INT, not just orton.

[Lonestar]

If the Broncos are only willing to offer Orton a contract for one year then they obiviously know something about him that isn't worth a longer investment.

Orton did have a finger injury in early in the season and a high ankle sprain against Washington yet he also had a deflection that went for a TD and Brandon snagged another one from a small cornerback against Dallas.Although he had 12 int's even some of those were ill advised throws at the line of scrimmage or in deep coverage.

I'm not sure how many times Orton tried to pound the ball in the endzone himself at point blank range or qb sneak the ball on 3rd/4th down and inches.Most qb's will take this opportunity against the wishes of the HC and begin to show more confidence and control of the offense.

I'm not sure what expectations people have of Orton and why Chicago had to offer other draft picks for him If they thought he had some hidden potential.I credit MCD for working with Orton and trying to squeeze anything out of him even If it meant implementing a fundamentally improvised playbook.Brandstrater didn't have enough experience and Simms was lucky be playing for anybody.

Hopefully keeping Orton for another year isn't a mistake since he does have bad habit of telegraphing where intends to throw the ball.If he is completely healthy at the start of the season and continues to make the same mistakes then the rest of us had a good reason to doubt his abilities If he doesn't start the season then McD didn't see anything different either and is willing to do what's best for the team.


Hey Folks add another oration hater to the list.

If he is as bad and a few others are saying, they would not offer him a RFA tenders sheet at all.

Come folks understand they do not think he is a waste of a roster spot like Y'all do, They are simply not ready to offer him or anyone else a long term Guaranteed contract.

NO MORE NO LESS.

[T.K.O.]

we should also then deduct any " hail mary" or" bad route" int's
it is what it is and his #'s are'nt bad.
its just that so many people want to see "flashy" plays and the system is designed around efficiency and ball control.
sorry folks its gonna be that way for a while regardless of who is behind center.
there will be "big plays" but they will be the exception ,not the norm.

[Lonestar]

we should also then deduct any " hail mary" or" bad route" int's
it is what it is and his #'s are'nt bad.
its just that so many people want to see "flashy" plays and the system is designed around efficiency and ball control.
sorry folks its gonna be that way for a while regardless of who is behind center.
there will be "big plays" but they will be the exception ,not the norm.

You see everyone forgets that this scheme is not the big play scheme that mike and jay played in 2008 that was great between the 20's.


So since we did not try to force the ball into double to triple coverage all year, Orton was a failure.

just for giggles lets look at Jay(08) VS Kyle (09)

Player Comp Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Int 1st 1st% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck Rate
Kyle Orton 336 541 62.1 33.8 3,802 7.0 237.6 21 12 185 34.2 87T 43 9 29 86.8

Jay Cutler 384 616 62.3 38.5 4,526 7.3 282.9 25 18 222 36.0 93T 55 7 11 86.0


Lets see Kyle's:

Completion average % was about the same
Had about 5 less passes per game
TD comparable considering the difference in passes thrown.
Had about .3 of yard less per pass.
Interceptions not even Close.
Less first downs than jay.
Long pass comparable considering jay has a cannon, and Kyle does not.
20+ yards passes a little less for Kyle.
40+ yards passes higher for Kyle
Sacks not even close. Might be the lousier OLINE this year.
The Qb ratings are about the same.


Hey folks it is hard for me to see just how bad he was compared to jay with a better OLINE all year, jay was not working on a new scheme or did not have new coaches, the only thing jay did not have was a consistent group of RB's but even then they IIRC averaged about 5 yards per carry.

FWIW had Kyle throw as many passes as jay did 75 passes times his average he would have had another 525 yards totaling 4377 or about 150 less than jay had the year before.


So folks, as Wendys advertisements used to say "Where is the BEEF"?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=0011&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&season=2009&seasonType=REG&experience=null&tabSeq=1&qualified=true&Submit=Go
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&conference=0011&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&season=2008&seasonType=REG&experience=null&tabSeq=1&qualified=true&Submit=Go

[topscribe]

Don't get me wrong, I think he's serviceable... But he is exactly what we thought he was.

The thing I didn't understand about Top's post was how he said he likes him more now than he did before the season. I don't think he did anything to improve my opinion of him this year, nor did he significantly hurt my opinion of him... He's exactly what I expected.

I always admire a person who has flown in the face of a host of handicaps
and odds and still succeeded.

If you expected a tough SOB who stepped into a radically different system,
coupled with every single player on the team new to him (except a single
WR), incurred a compound (bone-exposing) dislocation on the index (guiding)
finger on his throwing hand, then suffering a high ankle sprain about the time
he was fully recovering from the finger thing, and playing ½ of the season on
that sprain, and still having a successful season, then he indeed turned out
exactly as you expected.

Because I'll tell you right now, I certainly didn't expect that. So he turned out
to be more than I thought he was as a QB, and I thought he was a good one
from the start. So I'm a bigger fan of his now than I was before he started.

In fact, I think I'll buy his jersey . . .

------

[Ravage!!!]

Kyle isn't good. Period. Throw up any numbers you want... and anyone that watches the games will tell you .. "thats why you can't determine whats going on the game, by looking at the numbers sheet." Stats never tell the story.

Kyle isn't good. He's at best an average QB. Unfortunately, we have to live with that. If he wasn't just an average QB, the coaches would be sure to tie this guy up. But he's not. He's just mediocre, and because of the available talent, thats the best we will have. We just have to be bored, and accept it.

[Lonestar]

Kyle isn't good. Period. Throw up any numbers you want... and anyone that watches the games will tell you .. "thats why you can't determine whats going on the game, by looking at the numbers sheet." Stats never tell the story.

Kyle isn't good. He's at best an average QB. Unfortunately, we have to live with that. If he wasn't just an average QB, the coaches would be sure to tie this guy up. But he's not. He's just mediocre, and because of the available talent, thats the best we will have. We just have to be bored, and accept it.

Whoop, Whoop average police at it again.

Does this never get old with you.

You could not define it years ago with Jake and you still can't.

If you do not like someone they are average. If you love someone they are a stud

I just put up some comparable numbers you can't dispute. So you call them names again.

[topscribe]

Hey Folks add another oration hater to the list.

If he is as bad and a few others are saying, they would not offer him a RFA tenders sheet at all.

Come folks understand they do not think he is a waste of a roster spot like Y'all do, They are simply not ready to offer him or anyone else a long term Guaranteed contract.

NO MORE NO LESS.

It's amazing all that is being made of this by those who don't have a clue as
to what is going on behind the closed doors of the FO. But this is not unique
to them. I have found that people generally tend to color and inflate incoming
information to their liking, then call it fact . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Whoop, Whoop average police at it again.

Does this never get old with you.

You could not define it years ago with Jake and you still can't.

If you do not like someone they are average. If you love someone they are a stud

I just put up some comparable numbers you can't dispute. So you call them names again.

Actually, this is the NFL. If Orton is "average," then he's a pretty good QB. :coffee:

-----

[T.K.O.]

some of the sacks were likely due to worse o-line play,some because orton is'nt as mobile and some because orton was willing to take a sack rather than throw all crazy at times.....:laugh:

[Northman]

It's amazing all that is being made of this by those who don't have a clue as
to what is going on behind the closed doors of the FO. But this is not unique
to them. I have found that people generally tend to color and inflate incoming
information to their liking, then call it fact . . .

-----

No offense but that goes both ways Top.

[Ravage!!!]

Whoop, Whoop average police at it again.

Does this never get old with you.

You could not define it years ago with Jake and you still can't.

If you do not like someone they are average. If you love someone they are a stud

I just put up some comparable numbers you can't dispute. So you call them names again.

I can't help that you don't know what average player is. Thats not my fault. If you like them, you stand behind them and call people out that don't agree with you. If you don't like the draft picks, you give them stupid nick-names like a 3rd grader.

Orton is about as average a QB as it comes. ANyone in the NFL or fans around the country will tell you no different, OTHER than some Bronco fans.

But HEY.. I guess our opinion only isn't called out unless it agrees with your opinion. I'll STICK to MY opinion, without having to define it to you. I don't owe you a definition.... k?

[topscribe]

No offense but that goes both ways Top.

Yes, we all have to fight bias, including me.

It's just that some of us try to rely on documentation more than others . . . :coffee:

-----

[Ravage!!!]

Actually, this is the NFL. If Orton is "average," then he's a pretty good QB. :coffee:

-----

Yes... when comparing them to the players in college or HS. I'm not. I'm comparing him to his peers. So average, is still average.

[Lonestar]

some of the sacks were likely due to worse o-line play,some because orton is'nt as mobile and some because orton was willing to take a sack rather than throw all crazy at times.....:laugh:

Yep the Oline was not friendly to him last year and having a high ankle sprain did not help it either.

BUT remember Kyle is a bum, or so some say.

[Northman]

Yes, we all have to fight bias, including me.

It's just that some of us try to rely on documentation more than others . . . :coffee:

-----


If it suits one's agenda yes your correct.

[topscribe]

I can't help that you don't know what average player is. Thats not my fault. If you like them, you stand behind them and call people out that don't agree with you. If you don't like the draft picks, you give them stupid nick-names like a 3rd grader.

Orton is about as average a QB as it comes. ANyone in the NFL or fans around the country will tell you no different, OTHER than some Bronco fans.

But HEY.. I guess our opinion only isn't called out unless it agrees with your opinion. I'll STICK to MY opinion, without having to define it to you. I don't owe you a definition.... k?

That's fine, as long as you maintain it as your opinion . . . since you've never been able to define "average" . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Yes... when comparing them to the players in college or HS. I'm not. I'm comparing him to his peers. So average, is still average.

:confused:


:whoknows:



-----

[Northman]

Average does not equate Elite. But, it does not make them crappy either. Orton is a middle of the pack type of QB. Nothing more, nothing less. He is adequate for the time being until they find a better guy.

[topscribe]

Kyle isn't good. Period. Throw up any numbers you want... and anyone that watches the games will tell you .. "thats why you can't determine whats going on the game, by looking at the numbers sheet." Stats never tell the story.

Kyle isn't good. He's at best an average QB. Unfortunately, we have to live with that. If he wasn't just an average QB, the coaches would be sure to tie this guy up. But he's not. He's just mediocre, and because of the available talent, thats the best we will have. We just have to be bored, and accept it.

Well, you heard it here first. Ravage says Kyle isn't good.

/thread

-----

[Ravage!!!]

That's fine, as long as you maintain it as your opinion . . . since you've never been able to define "average" . . .

-----

Hah.. its a fact. He's average at best. I don't know what kind of definition you guys are looking for. Perhaps thats your only way of trying to take away from someone's opinion. But the truth is, NOTHING ORton does on the field, says "above average." Your "documentation".. is just numbers on a sheet of paper. Thats not proof, despite you BELIEVING it is. Just as your belief that you have "have undeniable proof" otherwise. Its only undeniable to you, because thats what you want to believe.

But all you have to do is watch him play. ALl you ahve to do is see the actual play on the field, and its obvious he's not an above average QB. He's not a star... and he'll always be a guy that moves from team to team.

Vinney Testeverde played in the NFL a LONG long time. He was always good enough to play somewhere, and remained good enough for a long enough time to continue playing. Compared to most PEOPLE in the world, he was a great QB. Compared to the better players in the NFL, he was average when he played in the games. Never one you ever had to worry about beating you. But you look at his career as a whole, it was very productive. He built up big numbers. But never was he ever more than an average NFL QB.

Orton isn't nearly as good a Vinny.

[topscribe]

Average does not equate Elite. But, it does not make them crappy either. Orton is a middle of the pack type of QB. Nothing more, nothing less. He is adequate for the time being until they find a better guy.

I can think of 53 players on 32 different teams, respectively, about whom that
can be said.

But if Orton was a "middle of the pack" player with all the obstacles and injuries
through which he had to play, then I consider him pretty damned good.

But I realize that it's hard to fight through the prevailing myopia to come to such
a conclusion . . . ;)

-----

[topscribe]

Hah.. its a fact. He's average at best. I don't know what kind of definition you guys are looking for. Perhaps thats your only way of trying to take away from someone's opinion. But the truth is, NOTHING ORton does on the field, says "above average." Your "documentation".. is just numbers on a sheet of paper. Thats not proof, despite you BELIEVING it is. Just as your belief that you have "have undeniable proof" otherwise. Its only undeniable to you, because thats what you want to believe.

But all you have to do is watch him play. ALl you ahve to do is see the actual play on the field, and its obvious he's not an above average QB. He's not a star... and he'll always be a guy that moves from team to team.

Vinney Testeverde played in the NFL a LONG long time. He was always good enough to play somewhere, and remained good enough for a long enough time to continue playing. Compared to most PEOPLE in the world, he was a great QB. Compared to the better players in the NFL, he was average when he played in the games. Never one you ever had to worry about beating you. But you look at his career as a whole, it was very productive. He built up big numbers. But never was he ever more than an average NFL QB.

Orton isn't nearly as good a Vinny.

See Post #70.

I'm outta here. Gotta get back to work . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

I can't help that you don't know what average player is. Thats not my fault. If you like them, you stand behind them and call people out that don't agree with you. If you don't like the draft picks, you give them stupid nick-names like a 3rd grader.

Orton is about as average a QB as it comes. ANyone in the NFL or fans around the country will tell you no different, OTHER than some Bronco fans.

But HEY.. I guess our opinion only isn't called out unless it agrees with your opinion. I'll STICK to MY opinion, without having to define it to you. I don't owe you a definition.... k?


I know rav you could not do it with Jake so how could anyone expect you to define it today. Just keep throwing that average moniker about enough and it is supposed become true.

But facts always win out when your open to LOGIC.

Since it does not help you in your argument(you know stats do not mean anything) here are some stats from this past year. Kyle was #14 on this list of NFL QB's


http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=false&conference=null&statisticPositionCategory=QUARTERBACK&season=2009&seasonType=REG&experience=null&tabSeq=1&qualified=true&Submit=Go

[Ravage!!!]

I"m not even looking at that because you already stated the point for me.

#14 out of 32. 16 is PERFECTLY down the middle, yet you think 14 somehow proves he isn't average? Thank you, you just proved my point for me... using your stats and your LOGIC :laugh: :lol: :salute:

[Lonestar]

Average does not equate Elite. But, it does not make them crappy either. Orton is a middle of the pack type of QB. Nothing more, nothing less. He is adequate for the time being until they find a better guy.


But that could be said for any and all players including QB's.

There are very few elite players at each position in the NFL. If Y'all are waiting for another John or Peyton to come along it may be a long time.

Hey if one comes this coming year great but until then I'm going to support Orton.

All of the denigrating of the guy because he is not elite gets old.

I hope they do not waste a high draft choice on one when we have much higher issues to fix mainly the LOS players.

Just like I was opposed to jay in 06 because he was not a DT. I would not like to see a bradford type drafted before we fix the OLINE and NT issues.

[turftoad]

Orton is avarage at best. He may not even be that good.

He doesn't scare opposing defenses and is not a come from behind QB.

He scares no one! Esspecially since he shaved his neck beard. :D

[Denver Native (Carol)]

Some quarterbacks now who are considered "elite", may be considered average if they had an average team around them. There are not many quarterbacks now who can carry a team on their back, as #7 did, and it was not until John had a great team around him that he won the SuperBowl.

[KyleOrtonArmySoldier#128]

Orton is a GREAT guy to keep the seat warm for our next franchise quarterback IMO.

Isn't it just SILLY when drunken football fan rednecks feel they are qualified to make uninformed general manager decisions?

I love it.

[Northman]

I can think of 53 players on 32 different teams, respectively, about whom that
can be said.

But if Orton was a "middle of the pack" player with all the obstacles and injuries
through which he had to play, then I consider him pretty damned good.

But I realize that it's hard to fight through the prevailing myopia to come to such
a conclusion . . . ;)

-----

Its not hard to fight through anything Top. Ive seen the guy play. And ive watched how the top tier QB's play. Its like night and day. Again, its not that Orton is JaMac or Ryan Leaf. But he isnt a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady either. Thats my only point.

[Northman]

Some quarterbacks now who are considered "elite", may be considered average if they had an average team around them. There are not many quarterbacks now who can carry a team on their back, as #7 did, and it was not until John had a great team around him that he won the SuperBowl.

Actually, ive seen plenty of Elite QB's carry their teams hence why they are Elite. And although your right about those Elite QB's needing help to finally win championships it does not change the fact that they are Elite QB's. Unfortuantely, Orton isnt one of them and needs more help than an Elite QB would. But, getting the right players in with the right chemistry is just as much if not more work than finding the Elite QB.

[Northman]

Orton is a GREAT guy to keep the seat warm for our next franchise quarterback IMO.

Isn't it just SILLY when drunken football fan rednecks feel they are qualified to make uninformed general manager decisions?

I love it.

Your right, you should go sleep it off.

[SR]

we should also then deduct any " hail mary" or" bad route" int's
it is what it is and his #'s are'nt bad.
its just that so many people want to see "flashy" plays and the system is designed around efficiency and ball control.
sorry folks its gonna be that way for a while regardless of who is behind center.
there will be "big plays" but they will be the exception ,not the norm.

The offense was severely dumbed down and more vanilla FOR your beloved Orton, IMO. If we had a more capable QB under center, I don't think you would have seen as near of conservative play calling.

[SR]

some of the sacks were likely due to worse o-line play,some because orton is'nt as mobile and some because orton was willing to take a sack rather than throw all crazy at times.....:laugh:

Eh. Right and wrong. I agree he was willing to eat a sack versus throw a pick and he wasn't mobile, but I don't agree that the offensive line didn't play as good or was "worse".

[SR]

Its not hard to fight through anything Top. Ive seen the guy play. And ive watched how the top tier QB's play. Its like night and day. Again, its not that Orton is JaMac or Ryan Leaf. But he isnt a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady either. Thats my only point.

He's not even Ben Rothlesberger (sp?) or Matt Schaub or Matt Ryan. He's on par with guys like Matt Hasselbeck, Chad Pennington, etc...guys that are good enough to play for most teams and good enough to start while not being elite, but not being bad either.

[broncophan]

Hah.. its a fact. He's average at best. I don't know what kind of definition you guys are looking for. Perhaps thats your only way of trying to take away from someone's opinion. But the truth is, NOTHING ORton does on the field, says "above average." Your "documentation".. is just numbers on a sheet of paper. Thats not proof, despite you BELIEVING it is. Just as your belief that you have "have undeniable proof" otherwise. Its only undeniable to you, because thats what you want to believe.

But all you have to do is watch him play. ALl you ahve to do is see the actual play on the field, and its obvious he's not an above average QB. He's not a star... and he'll always be a guy that moves from team to team.

Vinney Testeverde played in the NFL a LONG long time. He was always good enough to play somewhere, and remained good enough for a long enough time to continue playing. Compared to most PEOPLE in the world, he was a great QB. Compared to the better players in the NFL, he was average when he played in the games. Never one you ever had to worry about beating you. But you look at his career as a whole, it was very productive. He built up big numbers. But never was he ever more than an average NFL QB.

Orton isn't nearly as good a Vinny.

Testaverde was terrible and a loser the majority of his career.....and to say HE was "very productive" is a joke......without looking I would say he threw about as many int's as td's throughout his long career.......I would not call that very productive......or even AVERAGE.....you play 20 years.....you will build up big numbers....that's nothing great.....productive or AVERAGE...he must have been good at working with other players to survive as long as he did in the league..

I'll take Orton over Testaverde any day...

[MasterShake]

Upgrade the O-line, open up the playbook a bit and let's see how Orton does. I think he was adequate last year, he's pretty good when given time, but below average if he has to scramble. Considering he was playing hurt 1/2 the year with a rookie head coach etc etc his numbers are decent. Funny how nobody mentions that 8-8 was above 90% of people's expectations. For as much blame as everybody wants to put on Orton and credit the defense, the defense sure played like horse shit the last 1/4 of the season, but they and Nolan get all the credit for any win.

I'm not sure if Orton is the long term answer, but I'd like to see what he can do when healthy and with better circumstances. If he lights it up, awesome. If he's average, then the Broncos can look elsewhere. IMO, tender him high and give him 2010 to sink or swim.

Exactly. And like others have said he would be a good veteran backup.:salute:

[T.K.O.]

The offense was severely dumbed down and more vanilla FOR your beloved Orton, IMO. If we had a more capable QB under center, I don't think you would have seen as near of conservative play calling.

proof please ?
or maybe it was "dumbed down" for players that missed part of ota's and camp .
or maybe like most playbooks it takes more than one tc and or part of the season to "master" and mcD knows it.
ask your "elite" qb's in what year the "light went on" when they really came to understand the entire system and became proficient at it.
nevermind you have your mind made up and the truth won't change it.
and "beloved" might be a bit strong.
i just always root for the guy running the broncos offense.....its in my BLOOD !

[SR]

I root for him too. I'm a fan. But I'm not unwilling to call a spade, a spade. I'm not a "homer" and I don't wear orange glasses. I call it like I see it.

And I don't need any proof. You're biased toward Orton and your handle is proof. My proof that we would have a more explosive offense if we had a more capable QB is called COMMON SENSE.

[HORSEPOWER 56]

All I can say is this. When we didn't need to rely on Orton to win games for us, we won. When we needed him to come from behind late in the game, to put the offense on his back, we lost - EVERY TIME.

That's enough proof for me no matter what stats guys can come up with.

[SR]

Hence, average.

[T.K.O.]

All I can say is this. When we didn't need to rely on Orton to win games for us, we won. When we needed him to come from behind late in the game, to put the offense on his back, we lost - EVERY TIME.

That's enough proof for me no matter what stats guys can come up with.

see new england game.....

[SR]

Orton didn't win that game for us! Our defense did! By our defense not allowing NE to score in the third or fourth quarter, we were able to take the game to OT and win. We scored once in every quarter except the first. I'd hardly call that proof of your argument. Yeah, Orton drove 98 yards for the game tying score, but the cause and effect of it all was our defense putting him in a position to tie the game. But it wasn't even Orton that was responsible for the game tying drive. Moreno gained 27 yards on a SCREEN PASS. Brandon Marshall had to break tackles to run 11 yards to tie the game. It wasn't Orton who won it like it was John who won it, dare I say, Plummer who won it.

[T.K.O.]

I root for him too. I'm a fan. But I'm not unwilling to call a spade, a spade. I'm not a "homer" and I don't wear orange glasses. I call it like I see it.

And I don't need any proof. You're biased toward Orton and your handle is proof. My proof that we would have a more explosive offense if we had a more capable QB is called COMMON SENSE.

my " handle" has nothing to do with it....when jay was our qb i was "cutlers crew" at another site.
and when orton is gone i will change it again.
but i am biased and i do wear orange glasses and am certainly a "homer"
i always try to think the best and accentuate the positive.
i'm not blind and its just as easy to compare orton favorably with many qb's in the league as it is to try and put him down.
it's a matter of opinion and if you look at the facts (see Jr's stat comparison) we really could do alot worse at qb than orton.
unless you can pry brees,manning or brady away from their respective teams whats the point of bashing what we have right now?
i have never said orton is the best of the best,or anything close....but he is at least average and and i dont want to hear about how awesome guys like flacco and ryan are when orton out performed both in his 1st year in a system.
so be carefull what you wish for we could draft the next jamarcuss mcfatty and you'll be cryin' for the days when we had a "boring" yet efficient guy behind center.:salute:

[T.K.O.]

Orton didn't win that game for us! Our defense did! By our defense not allowing NE to score in the third or fourth quarter, we were able to take the game to OT and win. We scored once in every quarter except the first. I'd hardly call that proof of your argument. Yeah, Orton drove 98 yards for the game tying score, but the cause and effect of it all was our defense putting him in a position to tie the game. But it wasn't even Orton that was responsible for the game tying drive. Moreno gained 27 yards on a SCREEN PASS. Brandon Marshall had to break tackles to run 11 yards to tie the game. It wasn't Orton who won it like it was John who won it, dare I say, Plummer who won it.

oh...i see when a 98 yd drive to tie the game and a win in overtime happens its the rest of the team that did it,but when we lose its ortons fault.....
thanks now i got it !:elefant:

[SR]

oh...i see when a 98 yd drive to tie the game and a win in overtime happens its the rest of the team that did it,but when we lose its ortons fault.....
thanks now i got it !:elefant:

Quote me where I said we lost a game because of Orton because I am positive my fingers didn't type those words. I won't say Orton lost a game for us, but he certainly didn't win any for us when he needed to.

Orton was able to drive the ball 98 yards because the defense facilitated that situation. He did a good job under pressure on one drive in one game.

[SR]

my " handle" has nothing to do with it....when jay was our qb i was "cutlers crew" at another site.
and when orton is gone i will change it again.
but i am biased and i do wear orange glasses and am certainly a "homer"
i always try to think the best and accentuate the positive.
i'm not blind and its just as easy to compare orton favorably with many qb's in the league as it is to try and put him down.
it's a matter of opinion and if you look at the facts (see Jr's stat comparison) we really could do alot worse at qb than orton.
unless you can pry brees,manning or brady away from their respective teams whats the point of bashing what we have right now?
i have never said orton is the best of the best,or anything close....but he is at least average and and i dont want to hear about how awesome guys like flacco and ryan are when orton out performed both in his 1st year in a system.
so be carefull what you wish for we could draft the next jamarcuss mcfatty and you'll be cryin' for the days when we had a "boring" yet efficient guy behind center.:salute:

Yeah, we could do worse. A LOT worse. But I think all we're getting at is that Orton is average at best. He's in the middle of the pack statistically. He isn't terrible and he isn't great. He's between the two.

[T.K.O.]

Yeah, we could do worse. A LOT worse. But I think all we're getting at is that Orton is average at best. He's in the middle of the pack statistically. He isn't terrible and he isn't great. He's between the two.

see we are in agreement... its all good.
i would love nothing more than for the broncos to find the next superstar qb.
but truly great qb's are a rare find . and i would support the move to draft or find a fa that would improve the team.
but i also know at this point with a year in the system and with the team, our best chance at success next season is gonna be with orton at qb.
so i will support him . hell we might just be surprised and see consistant football next year for the first time in a long time and make the playoffs (or...dare i say the superbowl).

[SR]

If our running game is better next year, our defense doesn't get tired in the back half of the season, and Orton plays just a hair better than last year, we'll be a playoff contender.

[Poet]

Average at best is kinda wrong. If every single year he's been average then he's not average at best, which is pretty big slight.

The thing is that he still played better than most thought he would. No, he's not a great QB, but he's not terrible either.

And for the 'our offense is boring' crowd, boring doesn't matter. I surprised when I see some of the 'older' crowd go along with that sentiment because you guys should remember the grind it out football that...even Pittsburgh stuck to recently.

[tsiguy96]

Average at best is kinda wrong. If every single year he's been average then he's not average at best, which is pretty big slight.

The thing is that he still played better than most thought he would. No, he's not a great QB, but he's not terrible either.

And for the 'our offense is boring' crowd, boring doesn't matter. I surprised when I see some of the 'older' crowd go along with that sentiment because you guys should remember the grind it out football that...even Pittsburgh stuck to recently.

pretty much agree 100%

[TXBRONC]

Average does not equate Elite. But, it does not make them crappy either. Orton is a middle of the pack type of QB. Nothing more, nothing less. He is adequate for the time being until they find a better guy.

What we have in Orton is quarterback who plays not to make mistakes. Which is fine if defense and special teams are playing well.

[TXBRONC]

see new england game.....

I saw the New England game just like most other fans. New England was never up by more than 10 points. In the 3rd and 4th quarters of that game the defense shut New England down. But when Denver was down by more than 10 points they didn't come back to win any of those games.

[Lonestar]

Face it guys those that lost their franchise QB will never like anyone that Josh brings in.

There will always be the Defense won the game not our QB crowd.

There will always be a faction that will credit the win to anyone but the QB leading the team down the field for a win.

There were the Moreno haters.

Dayne haters.

Some thought we could never win another game if mike left.

Some that thought he would be snapped up in a heartbeat the second he was fired.

The Jake haters.

The fill in the blank haters.

We will be blessed at times for folks that are fans of players, we had the Dayne lovers for awhile when he was here they disappeared when he left.

Some folks will follow Scheffler when he goes same for BM.

In the end we are supposed to be Bronco fans regardless of who is on the team and who is the Coach.

I saddens me to see all the divides, factions what ever you call them. that just can't get past their pettiness and love for a past player. They fail to see the potential in some.

When Simms came to town there were some that hated him and some that thought he would be our next franchise QB.

We have some of the best posters in Bronco land but there are such divides.


In the end it all comes out in the wash and MOST are fans of the team. Those that are not, well it is to bad for them.

[topscribe]

Orton didn't win that game for us! Our defense did! By our defense not allowing NE to score in the third or fourth quarter, we were able to take the game to OT and win. We scored once in every quarter except the first. I'd hardly call that proof of your argument. Yeah, Orton drove 98 yards for the game tying score, but the cause and effect of it all was our defense putting him in a position to tie the game. But it wasn't even Orton that was responsible for the game tying drive. Moreno gained 27 yards on a SCREEN PASS. Brandon Marshall had to break tackles to run 11 yards to tie the game. It wasn't Orton who won it like it was John who won it, dare I say, Plummer who won it.

Um . . . I guess you missed . . . or glossed over . . . the fact that Orton had
TWO (2) 90+ yard drives in the NE game. But I guess it was the defense that
gave him such good field position, wasn't it? :coffee:

-----

[topscribe]

Its not hard to fight through anything Top. Ive seen the guy play. And ive watched how the top tier QB's play. Its like night and day. Again, its not that Orton is JaMac or Ryan Leaf. But he isnt a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady either. Thats my only point.

So why are you going to such an effort to make that point with me?

Do me a favor: run an exhaustive history on my posts here at the Forums, over
on Mania (Broncos Country), the Mane, and Mile High Report and find one single
post, or one syllable therein, where I have put Orton in the class of Peyton
Manning or Tom Brady. Once you find it, then come back and take up the
issue with me.

One caveat: You'll be on Medicare before you find it. :coffee:


P.S. There are 30 other teams for whom Manning and Brady do not play.
Which means you may also be on Medicare before the Broncos find another
Manning or Brady. So before you assay to jettison what we now have, be
careful what you wish for . . .

-----

[Shazam!]

Face it guys those that lost their franchise QB will never like anyone that Josh brings in.

There will always be the Defense won the game not our QB crowd.

There will always be a faction that will credit the win to anyone but the QB leading the team down the field for a win.

There were the Moreno haters.

Dayne haters.

Some thought we could never win another game if mike left.

Some that thought he would be snapped up in a heartbeat the second he was fired.

The Jake haters.

The fill in the blank haters.

We will be blessed at times for folks that are fans of players, we had the Dayne lovers for awhile when he was here they disappeared when he left.

Some folks will follow Scheffler when he goes same for BM.

In the end we are supposed to be Bronco fans regardless of who is on the team and who is the Coach.

I saddens me to see all the divides, factions what ever you call them. that just can't get past their pettiness and love for a past player. They fail to see the potential in some.

When Simms came to town there were some that hated him and some that thought he would be our next franchise QB.

We have some of the best posters in Bronco land but there are such divides.

Great passionate post.

[Northman]

The thing is that he still played better than most thought he would. No, he's not a great QB, but he's not terrible either.



Sooooo, he's average. :lol:

[Northman]

So before you assay to jettison what we now have, be
careful what you wish for . . .

-----

Ive been saying that for the last 10 years. :lol:

[Northman]

Face it guys those that lost their franchise QB will never like anyone that Josh brings in.

There will always be the Defense won the game not our QB crowd.

There will always be a faction that will credit the win to anyone but the QB leading the team down the field for a win.

There were the Moreno haters.

Dayne haters.

Some thought we could never win another game if mike left.

Some that thought he would be snapped up in a heartbeat the second he was fired.

The Jake haters.

The fill in the blank haters.

We will be blessed at times for folks that are fans of players, we had the Dayne lovers for awhile when he was here they disappeared when he left.

Some folks will follow Scheffler when he goes same for BM.

In the end we are supposed to be Bronco fans regardless of who is on the team and who is the Coach.

I saddens me to see all the divides, factions what ever you call them. that just can't get past their pettiness and love for a past player. They fail to see the potential in some.

When Simms came to town there were some that hated him and some that thought he would be our next franchise QB.

We have some of the best posters in Bronco land but there are such divides.


In the end it all comes out in the wash and MOST are fans of the team. Those that are not, well it is to bad for them.

:lol::lol::lol:

Your equally as guilty as the rest of us Jr. You can step off the soap box now.

[TXBRONC]

Actually, this is the NFL. If Orton is "average," then he's a pretty good QB. :coffee:

-----


14 out of 32 is pretty good? No its average. 8-8 in his first season yeah he's the bomb. :lol:

"He's play not to make mistakes rather playing to make plays (from Mike Klis)." Maybe he'll improve but I'm not convinced.

If he's that good why are we hearing that the front office isn't wiiling commit to him beyond 2010.

[SOCALORADO.]

14 out of 32 is pretty good? No its average. 8-8 in his first season yeah he's the bomb. :lol:

"He's play not to make mistakes rather playing to make plays (from Mike Klis)." Maybe he'll improve but I'm not convinced.

If he's that good why we hearing that the front office isn't wiiling commit to him beyond 2010.

Heres my take.
Orton is a solid back-up. I dont care about the #s, and hes only here for another year. Frankly, the whole piss and moan fest here is lame.
I dont care what anyone says, Orton cant make throws accurately after 20+ yards. He just cant. thats why it is so nice having Marshall, cause a QB doesnt have to be accurate with him, he just has to be in the vicinity with
the ball, Marshall does the rest.

MCD is shopping for a QB as we speak. Thats why he called PHIL, and he is still looking elsewhere as well. He also has his eye on a top 3 round QB, and i have no doubt he wll make a move if he can to get him.
I also wouldnt rule out 3 way trades, and future draft picks for a player/pick.

[Lonestar]

Heres my take.
Orton is a solid back-up. I dont care about the #s, and hes only here for another year. Frankly, the whole piss and moan fest here is lame.
I dont care what anyone says, Orton cant make throws accurately after 20+ yards. He just cant. thats why it is so nice having Marshall, cause a QB doesnt have to be accurate with him, he just has to be in the vicinity with
the ball, Marshall does the rest.

MCD is shopping for a QB as we speak. Thats why he called PHIL, and he is still looking elsewhere as well. He also has his eye on a top 3 round QB, and i have no doubt he wll make a move if he can to get him.
I also wouldnt rule out 3 way trades, and future draft picks for a player/pick.


We do not know if he can make a deep pass, it has not presented itself in the play book for what ever reason.


just for giggles lets look at Brady (09) VS Kyle (09)

Player Comp Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Int 1st 1st% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck Rate
Kyle Orton 336 541 62.1 33.8 3,802 7.0 237.6 21 12 185 34.2 87T 43 9 29 86.8

Tom Brady 371 565 65.7 35.3 4,398 7.8 274.9 28 13 214 37.9 81T 43 12 16 96.2




Lets see Kyle's:

Completion average % was off by 3.5 points
Had about 1.5 less passes per game
TD comparable considering the difference in passes thrown.
Had about .8 of yard less per pass.
Interceptions Comparable.
Less first downs.
Long pass comparable.
20+ yards passes comparable.
40+ yards passes less for Kyle
Sacks not even close. Might be the lousier OLINE this year.
The Qb ratings were lower.


Now what does this mean?

Kyle had decent stats considering the teams first year under the NE scheme.

TB had Welker and Moss and their TE Ben. All consistent receivers. They all have their routes and plays down Pat.

Kyle had BM, eddie and Graham. Excepting Graham who was semi familiar without eh scheme the other three are not consistent/confident in the knowledge of the scheme.

I know many feel Orton is not and can never be anything but a backup QB and have written him off because of the play calling and execution last year.

I just can't understand what you saw to make you all think he and the team for that matter know the scheme and are confident in it yet.

Why Y'all seem to think that they should be playing at the NE level after one training camp and one season.

I just do not understand what you saw, to make Y'all Dis the guy like you are.

Why everyone was hell bent in playing simms or the rookie, until they played.

Why everyone is praying for a Bradford, or Mcoy Etc etc. instead of giving Orton a chance after learning the system.

I do not understand when it is a win all of a sudden it is the defense that won the game. But when we lose a game it was all the QB's fault.

Y'all need to be consistent in your thinking, year 08 when we lost it was ONly the Defenses fault and when we won it was all jay and his rocket arm.

I frankly do not get it.

[Northman]

I frankly do not get it.

Should of left it at that.

[TXBRONC]

Heres my take.
Orton is a solid back-up. I dont care about the #s, and hes only here for another year. Frankly, the whole piss and moan fest here is lame.
I dont care what anyone says, Orton cant make throws accurately after 20+ yards. He just cant. thats why it is so nice having Marshall, cause a QB doesnt have to be accurate with him, he just has to be in the vicinity with
the ball, Marshall does the rest.

MCD is shopping for a QB as we speak. Thats why he called PHIL, and he is still looking elsewhere as well. He also has his eye on a top 3 round QB, and i have no doubt he wll make a move if he can to get him.
I also wouldnt rule out 3 way trades, and future draft picks for a player/pick.

I have said previously (I'm sure others have thought and said the samething) depending what kind of offer is made to Orton will say a lot about just how comfortable McDaniels is with Orton as along a term solution.

[SOCALORADO.]

We do not know if he can make a deep pass, it has not presented itself in the play book for what ever reason.


just for giggles lets look at Jay(08) VS Kyle (09)

Player Comp Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Int 1st 1st% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck Rate
Kyle Orton 336 541 62.1 33.8 3,802 7.0 237.6 21 12 185 34.2 87T 43 9 29 86.8

Tom Brady 371 565 65.7 35.3 4,398 7.8 274.9 28 13 214 37.9 81T 43 12 16 96.2




Lets see Kyle's:

Completion average % was off by 3.5 points
Had about 1.5 less passes per game
TD comparable considering the difference in passes thrown.
Had about .8 of yard less per pass.
Interceptions Comparable.
Less first downs.
Long pass comparable.
20+ yards passes comparable.
40+ yards passes less for Kyle
Sacks not even close. Might be the lousier OLINE this year.
The Qb ratings were lower.


Now what does this mean?

Kyle had decent stats considering the teams first year under the NE scheme.

TB had Welker and Moss and their TE Ben. All consistent receivers. They all have their routes and plays down Pat.

Kyle had BM, eddie and Graham. Excepting Graham who was semi familiar without eh scheme the other three are not consistent/confident in the knowledge of the scheme.

I know many feel Orton is not and can never be anything but a backup QB and have written him off because of the play calling and execution last year.

I just can't understand what you saw to make you all think he and the team for that matter know the scheme and are confident in it yet.

Why Y'all seem to think that they should be playing at the NE level after one training camp and one season.

I just do not understand what you saw, to make Y'all Dis the guy like you are.

Why everyone was hell bent in playing simms or the rookie, until they played.

Why everyone is praying for a Bradford, or Mcoy Etc etc. instead of giving Orton a chance after learning the system.

I do not understand when it is a win all of a sudden it is the defense that won the game. But when we lose a game it was all the QB's fault.

Y'all need to be consistent in your thinking, year 08 when we lost it was ONly the Defenses fault and when we won it was all jay and his rocket arm.

I frankly do not get it.

Thats not Jay, thats pretty boy.

[dogfish]

Kyle had BM, eddie and Graham. Excepting Graham who was semi familiar without eh scheme the other three are not consistent/confident in the knowledge of the scheme.

poor brandon, guy was so lost in the new scheme that he put up 100+ catches and 10 TDS. . .

maybe if he hadn't been so confused, he wouldn't have made norton look bad. . . . :lol::lol:

[topscribe]

14 out of 32 is pretty good? No its average. 8-8 in his first season yeah he's the bomb. :lol:

"He's play not to make mistakes rather playing to make plays (from Mike Klis)." Maybe he'll improve but I'm not convinced.

If he's that good why are we hearing that the front office isn't wiiling commit to him beyond 2010.

He's an NFL QB. There are only 32 starting NFL QBs in the entire world at one
time. That is a pretty exclusive club. If Kyle ranks #14 among that exclusive
32, then he is a pretty good QB. (I'm amazed I have to explain this.)

Yeah, 8-8 the first year. A real bomb. Of course, in his rookie year, he was
10-5, and in his second year on the field he was 9-7. (I'm just waiting now to
hear how he had such a good defense . . . while remaining ignored will be the
fact that last year's defense folded like a closed accordian.)

Incidentally, here are a few of Elway's years:

1983 4-6
1990 5-11
1994 7-7
1995 8-8

He's the bomb, isn't he?

-----

[dogfish]

FTR. . . i'm not saying that there's no way orton can improve next year, but. . . IMO, SOME of the talk about being in a new system gets exaggerated. . . it does have some validity, certainly-- but good players can play through it. . .

drew brees posted 64.3 completion %, 4,400+ passing yards and 26 TDs to 11 INTs his first year in new orleans, and sean payton's system is just as complex as JMFMCD's. . . of course, new orleans was already loaded when he got there, right?

hardly. . . the year before, they finished #20 in total offense and 31st in scoring. . . in '06, brees' top two targets were a rookie running back and a 7th round receiver. . .

not that it's even fair to compare orton to a star like brees. . .

i hope orton can progress and give us some adequate quarterback play for the next year or two, but i'm sure as hell not going to hold my breath waiting for him to develop into a true, quality starter. . . as far as i'm concerned, we've seen enough of him at this point to guess that he probably is just what he looks like. . . one of those borderline starters who you're always looking to replace. . . given the lack of good QBs, he's probably good enough to be that journeyman guy who hangs around and always finds a job somewhere-- that guy that gets mentioned whenever somebody needs a backup, or a one-year rental to nurse along a highly-drafted rookie QB. . .

like a john kitna, gus frerotte type. . . maybe he's even good enough to be one of those guys who floats around the league and finally falls into just the right situation and manages to put together a real quality season or two. . .

[PKchamp13]

I see a trend here:

"Orton did this and that while being hurt half the season."

Wasn't he hurt for a majority of 2008 as well?

No matter how good Orton is, does he have the stamina to be effective for an entire season?

[topscribe]

I see a trend here:

"Orton did this and that while being hurt half the season."

Wasn't he hurt for a majority of 2008 as well?

No matter how good Orton is, does he have the stamina to be effective for an entire season?

Have you studied to see what kind of injuries he incurred and under what
circumstances he incurred them?

-----

[PKchamp13]

Have you studied to see what kind of injuries he incurred and under what
circumstances he incurred them?

-----

The finger cut was just bad luck, but Orton has suffered from ankle injuries two straight years.

[broncobryce]

I defended Orton mostly during the season, but the final game with the pressure on told me what I needed to know. Now I will support him, hope he does well, but if we have a chance I say GRAB A ******* QB! lol

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I see a trend here:

"Orton did this and that while being hurt half the season."

Wasn't he hurt for a majority of 2008 as well?

No matter how good Orton is, does he have the stamina to be effective for an entire season?

A good OL in front of him definitely would help the situation.

[PKchamp13]

A good OL in front of him definitely would help the situation.

I don't remember the pass blocking being that bad. Sure, it had its down moments like any other line, but I always saw the run blocking as the weak link (not so much the protection).

[Denver Native (Carol)]

I don't remember the pass blocking being that bad. Sure, it had its down moments like any other line, but I always saw the run blocking as the weak link (not so much the protection).

According to the following, Kyle was sacked 29 times last year. I don't know how that stacks up against the other NFL quarterbacks.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7282

[Broncolingus]

According to the following, Kyle was sacked 29 times last year. I don't know how that stacks up against the other NFL quarterbacks.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7282

Some were sacked more and some were sacked less...

http://hotlink.myspacecdn.com/images02/52/783e3f2deb644de0ae21e547bea4b429/m.gif

[TXBRONC]

He's an NFL QB. There are only 32 starting NFL QBs in the entire world at one
time. That is a pretty exclusive club. If Kyle ranks #14 among that exclusive
32, then he is a pretty good QB. (I'm amazed I have to explain this.)

Yeah, 8-8 the first year. A real bomb. Of course, in his rookie year, he was
10-5, and in his second year on the field he was 9-7. (I'm just waiting now to
hear how he had such a good defense . . . while remaining ignored will be the
fact that last year's defense folded like a closed accordian.)

Incidentally, here are a few of Elway's years:

1983 4-6
1990 5-11
1994 7-7
1995 8-8

He's the bomb, isn't he?

-----

14 out of 32 means he's still middle of pack. (STBY)

As far as his record in Chicago it's irrelavent. It only matters what he does in Denver right?

[Lonestar]

Thats not Jay, thats pretty boy.

Yep I failed at editing on that.:laugh:

Have edited my original post.:salute:

[TXBRONC]

FTR. . . i'm not saying that there's no way orton can improve next year, but. . . IMO, SOME of the talk about being in a new system gets exaggerated. . . it does have some validity, certainly-- but good players can play through it. . .

drew brees posted 64.3 completion %, 4,400+ passing yards and 26 TDs to 11 INTs his first year in new orleans, and sean payton's system is just as complex as JMFMCD's. . . of course, new orleans was already loaded when he got there, right?

hardly. . . the year before, they finished #20 in total offense and 31st in scoring. . . in '06, brees' top two targets were a rookie running back and a 7th round receiver. . .

not that it's even fair to compare orton to a star like brees. . .

i hope orton can progress and give us some adequate quarterback play for the next year or two, but i'm sure as hell not going to hold my breath waiting for him to develop into a true, quality starter. . . as far as i'm concerned, we've seen enough of him at this point to guess that he probably is just what he looks like. . . one of those borderline starters who you're always looking to replace. . . given the lack of good QBs, he's probably good enough to be that journeyman guy who hangs around and always finds a job somewhere-- that guy that gets mentioned whenever somebody needs a backup, or a one-year rental to nurse along a highly-drafted rookie QB. . .

like a john kitna, gus frerotte type. . . maybe he's even good enough to be one of those guys who floats around the league and finally falls into just the right situation and manages to put together a real quality season or two. . .

This pretty much sums up how I see things.

[Ravage!!!]

FTR. . . i'm not saying that there's no way orton can improve next year, but. . . IMO, SOME of the talk about being in a new system gets exaggerated. . . it does have some validity, certainly-- but good players can play through it. . .

drew brees posted 64.3 completion %, 4,400+ passing yards and 26 TDs to 11 INTs his first year in new orleans, and sean payton's system is just as complex as JMFMCD's. . . of course, new orleans was already loaded when he got there, right?

hardly. . . the year before, they finished #20 in total offense and 31st in scoring. . . in '06, brees' top two targets were a rookie running back and a 7th round receiver. . .

not that it's even fair to compare orton to a star like brees. . .

i hope orton can progress and give us some adequate quarterback play for the next year or two, but i'm sure as hell not going to hold my breath waiting for him to develop into a true, quality starter. . . as far as i'm concerned, we've seen enough of him at this point to guess that he probably is just what he looks like. . . one of those borderline starters who you're always looking to replace. . . given the lack of good QBs, he's probably good enough to be that journeyman guy who hangs around and always finds a job somewhere-- that guy that gets mentioned whenever somebody needs a backup, or a one-year rental to nurse along a highly-drafted rookie QB. . .

like a john kitna, gus frerotte type. . . maybe he's even good enough to be one of those guys who floats around the league and finally falls into just the right situation and manages to put together a real quality season or two. . .


I agree with TXBRONC... great post. :beer:

[topscribe]

14 out of 32 means he's still middle of pack. (STBY)

As far as his record in Chicago it's irrelavent. It only matters what he does in Denver right?

And if he's in the middle of the pack in the most exclusive QB club in the world
while playing in a radically new system with all new players to him and with a
compound dislocation of his index finger on his throwing hand and a high ankle
sprain, that's pretty good in my opinion.

But of course, if you're bound and determined that Orton is a subpar QB, then
circumstances don't matter, do they? I remember when Champ Bailey played a
season through a hamstring injury, and a bunch of people were saying he had
"lost a step." (I'll bet I get a response from somebody, saying this is not about
Champ.)

But there is no use trying to explain that the team's record is not his record,
that 53 other players have a lot to do with that. Just like I hoped to point out
that Elway's losing years were that of his team, not just Elway.

Nope, Orton didn't have anything to do with the wins; that was the defense.
But the losses were all his.

But there's no use trying to get this through anymore. It doesn't matter how
many alarm clocks you throw into a cemetery; you're still not going to wake
the dead.

-----

[topscribe]

FTR. . . i'm not saying that there's no way orton can improve next year, but. . . IMO, SOME of the talk about being in a new system gets exaggerated. . . it does have some validity, certainly-- but good players can play through it. . .

drew brees posted 64.3 completion %, 4,400+ passing yards and 26 TDs to 11 INTs his first year in new orleans, and sean payton's system is just as complex as JMFMCD's. . . of course, new orleans was already loaded when he got there, right?

hardly. . . the year before, they finished #20 in total offense and 31st in scoring. . . in '06, brees' top two targets were a rookie running back and a 7th round receiver. . .

not that it's even fair to compare orton to a star like brees. . .

i hope orton can progress and give us some adequate quarterback play for the next year or two, but i'm sure as hell not going to hold my breath waiting for him to develop into a true, quality starter. . . as far as i'm concerned, we've seen enough of him at this point to guess that he probably is just what he looks like. . . one of those borderline starters who you're always looking to replace. . . given the lack of good QBs, he's probably good enough to be that journeyman guy who hangs around and always finds a job somewhere-- that guy that gets mentioned whenever somebody needs a backup, or a one-year rental to nurse along a highly-drafted rookie QB. . .

like a john kitna, gus frerotte type. . . maybe he's even good enough to be one of those guys who floats around the league and finally falls into just the right situation and manages to put together a real quality season or two. . .

Nice job. I believe this expresses the hopes and fears of many fans.

I do not believe Orton has yet been given the chance to display his best
football. First, he has completed only his third year on the field. In his second
year, of course, he suffered a high ankle sprain on the wrong leg (push off),
hampering his ability to put any force in his throws and his mobility. And he
was playing with a subpar line and receivers in the first place.

This last year, he was in an entirely new system for him (and for everyone
else), playing with an entirely new team, playing with a dislocated finger, the
wrong (index) finger on his throwing hand, and then suffering yet another
ankle sprain, ironically in the last half of the season.

Many of these circumstances will not exist this next year: he and his team
will have a year in the system under their belts (McD said they will be able to
play and not think this year), his injuries will be completely healed, and he will
be a year more experienced. McD said he believes Orton will be much better
this year and that he expects "great things" from Kyle.

So, no, I don't believe we've yet seen Kyle's best. As will the rest of us, I will
be eagerly watching to see what that is. Stay tuned . . .

-----

[Lonestar]

Top good post but IMO lots of bronco fans will never accept Orton in Denver because of the circumstances of how he wound up here.

So I too am waiting to see how he does this coming year. Knowing that his and the teams improvement will not be good enough for most that have an irrational hate of him.

Regardless of what he does it will never be good enough for the few that hate him soley because he is NOT jay.
Or some other top pick in the draft with a ROCKET arm.

They will hate this O because it does not feature the long ball.

Will whine and complain because it is a move the chains clock killing passing game not a jay throw the ball deep into double or more coverage.

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

[Northman]

Top good post but IMO lots of bronco fans will never accept Orton in Denver because of the circumstances of how he wound up here.

So I too am waiting to see how he does this coming year. Knowing that his and the teams improvement will not be good enough for most that have an irrational hate of him.

Regardless of what he does it will never be good enough for the few that hate him soley because he is NOT jay.
Or some other top pick in the draft with a ROCKET arm.

They will hate this O because it does not feature the long ball.

Will whine and complain because it is a move the chains clock killing passing game not a jay throw the ball deep into double or more coverage.

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.






Honestly, i havent seen anyone the last few weeks even bring up Jay's name. Most have stayed on topic about Orton's actual abilities and tendency to injuries, etc. So while im sure there might be a couple of blokes who might think Jay is better most of them have strayed away from that arguement. But forgive us for having any opinion on any player that doesnt glorify them every single minute. Objectivity doesnt equal to hate my friend.

[TXBRONC]

And if he's in the middle of the pack in the most exclusive QB club in the world
while playing in a radically new system with all new players to him and with a
compound dislocation of his index finger on his throwing hand and a high ankle
sprain, that's pretty good in my opinion.

But of course, if you're bound and determined that Orton is a subpar QB, then
circumstances don't matter, do they? I remember when Champ Bailey played a
season through a hamstring injury, and a bunch of people were saying he had
"lost a step." (I'll bet I get a response from somebody, saying this is not about
Champ.)

But there is no use trying to explain that the team's record is not his record,
that 53 other players have a lot to do with that. Just like I hoped to point out
that Elway's losing years were that of his team, not just Elway.

Nope, Orton didn't have anything to do with the wins; that was the defense.
But the losses were all his.

But there's no use trying to get this through anymore. It doesn't matter how
many alarm clocks you throw into a cemetery; you're still not going to wake
the dead.

-----

Don't put words in my mouth. I said he's middle of the pack not subpar nor did I ever say he had nothing to do with Denver's wins. I've said without a good supporting cast he struggles, that is to say without a strong defense he will struggle.

Now that's convienent for you say he's in a radically different system yet it was not that long you were at front of line beating the drum about how Orton was in similar offense to this in college which admittedly is true. Orton has said that offense is very similar to what he ran college and that he was comfortable with it. So if Orton is saying it is familiar to him then it isn't radically different in his mind.

You toot Orton's horn about how good of year had and in next breath you make a big deal about how he had all new players around him. If he had such a good year then the new players around him couldn't have been that big of of issue. FTR I can see that he had solid season, not spectacular but solid.

Just two more things. First of all, my view of Orton is similar to that of Dogfish and a lot other people I don't think Orton is a long term solution. However, until such time as McDaniels can find a long term solution we are better off keep Orton around because there are 18 other starting quarterbacks that weren't as good as he was.

Second, I'll jump for joy if he proves me wrong, but I just don't think he will.

[TXBRONC]

Top good post but IMO lots of bronco fans will never accept Orton in Denver because of the circumstances of how he wound up here.

So I too am waiting to see how he does this coming year. Knowing that his and the teams improvement will not be good enough for most that have an irrational hate of him.

Regardless of what he does it will never be good enough for the few that hate him soley because he is NOT jay.
Or some other top pick in the draft with a ROCKET arm.

They will hate this O because it does not feature the long ball.

Will whine and complain because it is a move the chains clock killing passing game not a jay throw the ball deep into double or more coverage.

Sent from my BlackBerry Smartphone provided by Alltel.

I've seen people get labled as haters only because they don't see Orton as a long term solution.

It doesn't seem to me that you have been following this conversation in many different threads that come up in. If you had you would know that many of same people that you're labling as haters also have raked Cutler over the coals. That being the case what you're saying is simply inaccurate.

I would say that the vast majority of fans on this board have an excellent understanding of the game and this team.

It's hogwash to say this offense is designed to be just nickel and dime offense. Any offense that is designed only to nickel and dime it is doomed to failure because no offense can sustain drives for 10+ plays every time they have the ball. When defense co-ordinators see that they'll start sitting on the short and intermediate routes. Please don't try to tell me that this is how New England runs their offense. I've seen enough of them over the years to know that they take their shots down field and they were doing that even before Randy Moss joined them.

[topscribe]

Don't put words in my mouth. I said he's middle of the pack not subpar nor did I ever say he had nothing to do with Denver's wins. I've said without a good supporting cast he struggles, that is to say without a strong defense he will struggle.

Now that's convienent for you say he's in a radically different system yet it was not that long you were at front of line beating the drum about how Orton was in similar offense to this in college which admittedly is true. Orton has said that offense is very similar to what he ran college and that he was comfortable with it. So if Orton is saying it is familiar to him then it isn't radically different in his mind.

You toot Orton's horn about how good of year had and in next breath you make a big deal about how he had all new players around him. If he had such a good year then the new players around him couldn't have been that big of of issue. FTR I can see that he had solid season, not spectacular but solid.

Just two more things. First of all, my view of Orton is similar to that of Dogfish and a lot other people I don't think Orton is a long term solution. However, until such time as McDaniels can find a long term solution we are better off keep Orton around because there are 18 other starting quarterbacks that weren't as good as he was.

Second, I'll jump for joy if he proves me wrong, but I just don't think he will.

You apparently have not been following my comments very well. I talked
about the new cast and mentioned that Orton had a decent season despite
the new cast.

In fact, I mentioned several other factors you glossed over here, such as
Orton's injuries and his relative inexperience. It's amazing how certain posters
have picked out single factors and talked about how he should have been able
to "work through it," ignoring the cumulative effect of other factors. When
allllllllllll the factors are combined, it becomes easy to see--to an open-minded
person, that is--how that can significantly affect the play of such an intricate
and complex position as quarterback.

But at no time did I use that as an excuse. To the contrary, I lauded Orton
for as well as he did in the face of the injuries, obstacles, and distractions he
incurred. As I previously mentioned, I am higher on him than I was before the
season began, and I am excited to see what he can do when he is at his best,
which I believe he has not yet been allowed to be.

And I'm still going to buy his jersey . . .

-----

[Ravage!!!]

I can judge Orton's play without comparing him to past QBs on this team. I'm not comparing him to the rest of the people in the world, or the US. I'm not comparing him to HS QBs or college QBs. I don't think that just because he's an NFL QB, that makes him a "good QB." I'm comparing him to the talent we see each week, and each year, in the NFL. Kyle is not average because he's not a past QB. Kyle is average because he's average. Period. Not because he doesn't throw the deep ball, not because his name isn't Cutler. But because his skill set defines 'average QB' in the NFL.

Some think thats an insult to him. I'm sorry if thats how you see it, but thats the reality and why Kyle won't be a Bronco long. Its why he wasn't a Bear long. Its why he won't be on his next team, very long...and that doesn't have anything to do with a QB that used to play in Denver.

[TXBRONC]

I apologize for that. Looks as if it was edited out. Had it not been I would do it.

-----

Apology accepted. I apologize too.

We have an honest difference of opinion on Orton's abilities and just how good he is right now and how good he will ultimately be. Like several other people but certainly not everyone I think what we see with Orton is what we get. Could he prove me wrong? Absolutely and if he does great.

[rcsodak]

For every Brady and Warner there are, how many no-name QBs are drafted in late rounds that do nothing?

About the same number of early round QB's that equally suck?

[rcsodak]

Don't get me wrong, I think he's serviceable... But he is exactly what we thought he was.

The thing I didn't understand about Top's post was how he said he likes him more now than he did before the season. I don't think he did anything to improve my opinion of him this year, nor did he significantly hurt my opinion of him... He's exactly what I expected.

Many of us might just think that he was MORE than "what we thought he was".

He sure didn't have that amount of success at Chicago. And did better there than cutler did, who had better weapons.

For those of us that didn't despise him from the get-go, we see promise, and up-side.

[rcsodak]

Kyle isn't good. Period. Throw up any numbers you want... and anyone that watches the games will tell you .. "thats why you can't determine whats going on the game, by looking at the numbers sheet." Stats never tell the story.

Kyle isn't good. He's at best an average QB. Unfortunately, we have to live with that. If he wasn't just an average QB, the coaches would be sure to tie this guy up. But he's not. He's just mediocre, and because of the available talent, thats the best we will have. We just have to be bored, and accept it.

LMAO!

You saying stats "never tell the story" cracks me up!

You've rested your reputation on your 'stat diagnosing', rav, and I've called you on it. So unless you all of a sudden "saw the light....".... :confused:

And as for your "If he wasn't just an average QB, the coaches would be sure to tie this guy up.", what's that say about the QB they got rid of last year?
:rolleyes:

Admit it.

He's "avg" if they don't "tie him up"
McD's "stupid" if he DOES.

I think I hear Shanny calling.....lol

[rcsodak]

That's fine, as long as you maintain it as your opinion . . . since you've never been able to define "average" . . .

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Average: can't throw the rock 80yds while standing on one foot. Takes sacks instead of throwing said passes into the waiting arms of defenders. Plays with bones protruding through throwing hand, while standing on one foot with ligament damage. Tends to win more games than he loses.

[rcsodak]

I"m not even looking at that because you already stated the point for me.

#14 out of 32. 16 is PERFECTLY down the middle, yet you think 14 somehow proves he isn't average? Thank you, you just proved my point for me... using your stats and your LOGIC :laugh: :lol: :salute:

I hated math...


..but I think I stayed awake long enough to learn that 14/32 is ABOVE AVERAGE.


Guess I somehow glazed over where Pro-Bowler cutler ended up..... :confused:

[xzn]

Barring a major move up to get Sam Bradford I don't think that there is necessarily a QB in this draft class who could walk in to team OTAs this spring / summer and take Kyle's job for next year.

There are no legit FAs to bring in and we don't have anything worth mentioning in house behind him.

Now, looking past next season we do need an upgrade at backup QB who could develop into a future starter with more mobility and playmaking savvy.

Guys I think could fill that role include: Clausen, Mc Coy (both kind of short though) and Pike (6'5). Le Fevour and Tebow don't seem to be accurate enough to play in Josh's system.

Bottom Line: Orton is what we got so we gotta go with him and wish him the best until and unless we can get someone better. Meanwhile we need to get a better backup who won't give away the season if Kyle get's hurt mid-season.

[rcsodak]

I see a trend here:

"Orton did this and that while being hurt half the season."

Wasn't he hurt for a majority of 2008 as well?

No matter how good Orton is, does he have the stamina to be effective for an entire season?

Evidently you didn't see the injury occur from Okong landing on his ankle? Or his finger getting broken?

It's not like he was running to the sideline, twisted his ankle, and fell down jamming his finger. :rolleyes:

[rcsodak]

I can judge Orton's play without comparing him to past QBs on this team. I'm not comparing him to the rest of the people in the world, or the US. I'm not comparing him to HS QBs or college QBs. I don't think that just because he's an NFL QB, that makes him a "good QB." I'm comparing him to the talent we see each week, and each year, in the NFL. Kyle is not average because he's not a past QB. Kyle is average because he's average. Period. Not because he doesn't throw the deep ball, not because his name isn't Cutler. But because his skill set defines 'average QB' in the NFL.

Some think thats an insult to him. I'm sorry if thats how you see it, but thats the reality and why Kyle won't be a Bronco long. Its why he wasn't a Bear long. Its why he won't be on his next team, very long...and that doesn't have anything to do with a QB that used to play in Denver.

Refresher course on math....


....if you're going to 'label' him as "average"....


...then, YES! You ARE "comparing him to the rest of the people in the world, or the US. "

:coffee:

[xzn]

Evidently you didn't see the injury occur from Okong landing on his ankle? Or his finger getting broken?

It's not like he was running to the sideline, twisted his ankle, and fell down jamming his finger. :rolleyes:

Do you mean Orakpo? :confused:

[rcsodak]

Do you mean Orakpo? :confused:

YES I DO!!!! :laugh:

[Lonestar]

Kyle isn't good. Period. Throw up any numbers you want... and anyone that watches the games will tell you .. "thats why you can't determine whats going on the game, by looking at the numbers sheet." Stats never tell the story.

Kyle isn't good. He's at best an average QB. Unfortunately, we have to live with that. If he wasn't just an average QB, the coaches would be sure to tie this guy up. But he's not. He's just mediocre, and because of the available talent, thats the best we will have. We just have to be bored, and accept it.

Quit with the dictums and absolutes.

It is only your opinion, while you are entitled to have it.

Please stop repeating something, hoping it will become true just because you say it enough.

No one heard this from any reliable source.

If he was as bad as you say he would not be playing in the NFL. if he was this bad then Josh would not say the things he does about him.

Your constant bashing of him and stating things that are not proven is getting way old.

Beating the drum that he has not been already tied up long term MEANS SQUAT.

Just how many RFA have been offered new contracts by how many teams so far I know of ONE Casey Hampton in Pits.

[JDL]

yeah 3800 yds and a 21-12 td/int ratio while playing injured for 1/2 his games ,all the while learning a new system....what a loser.

we shoulda started simms or branstater:laugh:

hey,on a positive note....that quote in your sig is awesome.it makes me think of my dad whenever i read it,although he was a dick most of the time i still love him and like to think of him that way.r.i.p. pops

Funny, I seem to recall some guy named Brian Griese killing it in 2000 (leading the team to one of its best offensive outputs ever), completing 64% 19 to 4 INT rate in just 10 games... how'd he work out for us??? lol.

Anyone with a pair of eyes can see he isn't the longterm answer... he's fine in the short term but really isn't what you want in a starting QB. He's every bit the Griese Jay Fielder type QB... you're not gonna win championships with those guys... but you can win some games. He is more of a good backup than starter.

[JDL]

About the same number of early round QB's that equally suck?

This is not true at all.. it is a pretty stupid statement. There are plenty of early round QBs who fail ... but the rate continues to dramatically drop the deeper you go in the draft... pretty asinine statement guy.

[JDL]

I don't remember the pass blocking being that bad. Sure, it had its down moments like any other line, but I always saw the run blocking as the weak link (not so much the protection).

In fact the pass blocking was quite excellent by league standards.. but Orton would hold the ball or get lost in the pocket when he brought the ball down... half of Clady's sacks given up were because he tried to roll out instead of stepping up into the pocket and he didn't have the footspeed or sense to know the backside DE was chasing him and simply wouldn't throw the ball away. Orton really has terrible pocket awareness and mobility... he gets happy feet and starts looking around trying to figure out where to go, he isn't able to step up or move around the pocket and keep his head downfield. He is the major issue with the pass protection right now - that is pretty clear.

[Ravage!!!]

I hated math...


..but I think I stayed awake long enough to learn that 14/32 is ABOVE AVERAGE.





I was waiting for someone to make this comment, and I should have GUESSED it would have been you... the most brilliant of them all!! :laugh:

So... you figure there is only ONE QB in the entire NFL that is average and everyone else is either 'above or below' average!! :laugh: GENIUS! BRILLIANT!! :lol:

You can't take a single number to define "average" when there are so many variables to consider. Number of pass attempts, receivers, games, drop-backs, competition, games played...blah blah blah. Hence, none of the variables are the same from QB to QB. Your brilliance of saying that 14 is above 16, thus he's "above average" is about as blind as it gets.

I'm pretty confident that anyone in a world of reality, and those that don't come on the boards just every once in a while to snipe at posts, can see that the difffernce between 14 and 16 doesn't make him above average PLAYER. We aren't looking for the average "number" in a list of numbers. :lol: But its very cute that you try. :coffee:

[Lonestar]

Funny, I seem to recall some guy named Brian Griese killing it in 2000 (leading the team to one of its best offensive outputs ever), completing 64% 19 to 4 INT rate in just 10 games... how'd he work out for us??? lol.

Anyone with a pair of eyes can see he isn't the longterm answer... he's fine in the short term but really isn't what you want in a starting QB. He's every bit the Griese Jay Fielder type QB... you're not gonna win championships with those guys... but you can win some games. He is more of a good backup than starter.



Actually until his shoulder was trashed he was a decent QB, not well liked by his teammates but was smart and efficient. But he also had a damned fine team around him YET.

[Lonestar]

In fact the pass blocking was quite excellent by league standards.. but Orton would hold the ball or get lost in the pocket when he brought the ball down... half of Clady's sacks given up were because he tried to roll out instead of stepping up into the pocket and he didn't have the footspeed or sense to know the backside DE was chasing him and simply wouldn't throw the ball away. Orton really has terrible pocket awareness and mobility... he gets happy feet and starts looking around trying to figure out where to go, he isn't able to step up or move around the pocket and keep his head downfield. He is the major issue with the pass protection right now - that is pretty clear.

Funny I rarely saw any availability to set up into the pocket caused it collapsed into him with our pee wee center and OLG getting pushed back.

Guess you missed the press conference near the end of the season where Josh was less thatn pleased with the OLINE.

Why dod you think Casey was let go with atlas one year left on his contract. Considering we do not YET have a replacement for him on the Roster that speaks volumes, and where was Hamilton's new contract.

Kuper being a younger Oline guy is most likely be tendered a High one. So IF someone really wants him they will give us more than what he is worth.

Allow the force to be with you, come back from the dark side.

[rcsodak]

This is not true at all.. it is a pretty stupid statement. There are plenty of early round QBs who fail ... but the rate continues to dramatically drop the deeper you go in the draft... pretty asinine statement guy.

Speaking of which..... :rolleyes:

There has been a plethora of 1st/2nd round qb's that have been touted as 'the guy', and have not only NOT been 'the guy', but didn't even play! (Rich Campbell)

It'd be too easy to list them, and frankly, anybody that's followed the NFL for very long could probably list a dozen without looking. When they are taken in the 1st/2nd round, the team is putting way more money/time/stock into them, making their crash/burns even MORE hurtful to the team.

For the most part, late round draft picks are widely considered projects, and/or scout-team qb's/backups. (Gary Kubiak) When they don't get on the field, are they really considered 'busts'?

But go ahead and keep thinking your posts are 'all that', while the rest of us continue to chuckle. :coffee:

[rcsodak]

In fact the pass blocking was quite excellent by league standards.. but Orton would hold the ball or get lost in the pocket when he brought the ball down... half of Clady's sacks given up were because he tried to roll out instead of stepping up into the pocket and he didn't have the footspeed or sense to know the backside DE was chasing him and simply wouldn't throw the ball away. Orton really has terrible pocket awareness and mobility... he gets happy feet and starts looking around trying to figure out where to go, he isn't able to step up or move around the pocket and keep his head downfield. He is the major issue with the pass protection right now - that is pretty clear.

How many QB's do you know that are willing/able to "step up" when the center/guard is getting buried/blown up?

Or maybe you think Weigmann was released because McD didn't want a productive Center? :rolleyes:

[rcsodak]

I was waiting for someone to make this comment, and I should have GUESSED it would have been you... the most brilliant of them all!! :laugh:

So... you figure there is only ONE QB in the entire NFL that is average and everyone else is either 'above or below' average!! :laugh: GENIUS! BRILLIANT!! :lol:

You can't take a single number to define "average" when there are so many variables to consider. Number of pass attempts, receivers, games, drop-backs, competition, games played...blah blah blah. Hence, none of the variables are the same from QB to QB. Your brilliance of saying that 14 is above 16, thus he's "above average" is about as blind as it gets.

I'm pretty confident that anyone in a world of reality, and those that don't come on the boards just every once in a while to snipe at posts, can see that the difffernce between 14 and 16 doesn't make him above average PLAYER. We aren't looking for the average "number" in a list of numbers. :lol: But its very cute that you try. :coffee:

You're the one that made the big deal out of the numbers that Jr showed. You're the one that said you didn't even need to comment on it because it "showed" you were correct.

Really, you need to decide on your waffling with the stats usage, ravvy. Stick with one or the other, will ya? I'm getting dizzy.

Either you believe the stats show what the player is, or you don't. You can't use them when they make your point about a certain player, and then turn around and say they don't mean shit when they're used against a certain player.

And of course, when it comes to using insults in their posts,
I should have GUESSED it would have been you... the most brilliant of them all!! :laugh:

[topscribe]

In fact the pass blocking was quite excellent by league standards.. but Orton would hold the ball or get lost in the pocket when he brought the ball down... half of Clady's sacks given up were because he tried to roll out instead of stepping up into the pocket and he didn't have the footspeed or sense to know the backside DE was chasing him and simply wouldn't throw the ball away. Orton really has terrible pocket awareness and mobility... he gets happy feet and starts looking around trying to figure out where to go, he isn't able to step up or move around the pocket and keep his head downfield. He is the major issue with the pass protection right now - that is pretty clear.

I guess that depends on your standard of "excellent." For instance, in the
Baltimore game, IIRC, Orton had an average of 1.7 seconds to pass the ball.
The truth is, the pass blocking was pretty good toward the first of the year,
then progressively deteriorated as the second half of the season wore on.

Did you miss the final KC game? It showed me two things:

1. The pass blocking stunk, and Orton was running for his life all afternoon.

2. Orton has mobility.

See, you are failing to take into consideration that Orton was playing on a
high ankle sprain. I don't care if you're an Olympic Gold Medalist in the 100-
yard dash: If you have a high ankle sprain, it is going to slow you down
considerably. But in that final KC game, Orton seemed to be recovering from
the injury, and it showed in a display of mobility that I don't believe many
thought he had (and obviously still don't think so).

-----

[topscribe]

Actually until his shoulder was trashed he was a decent QB, not well liked by his teammates but was smart and efficient. But he also had a damned fine team around him YET.

Exactly. It is amazing, isn't it, how injuries are glossed over? Those who
apparently have never played the sport seem to think a player with a significant
injury should be just as effective as when he is healthy. It's called empathy. I
guess one just doesn't have it unless one has been there, done that . . .

-----

[topscribe]

Funny I rarely saw any availability to set up into the pocket caused it collapsed into him with our pee wee center and OLG getting pushed back.

Guess you missed the press conference near the end of the season where Josh was less thatn pleased with the OLINE.

Why dod you think Casey was let go with atlas one year left on his contract. Considering we do not YET have a replacement for him on the Roster that speaks volumes, and where was Hamilton's new contract.

Kuper being a younger Oline guy is most likely be tendered a High one. So IF someone really wants him they will give us more than what he is worth.

Allow the force to be with you, come back from the dark side.

Yup. To ask why Orton didn't step up into the pocket is to indicated one has
not watched the games, at least very closely. I.e., what pocket? The
defense collapsed the pocket so often there wasn't one to step up into . . .

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